From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Sep 1 13:03:48 1996 Date: 01 Sep 96 09:03:48 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Suffering Message-Id: <960901130347_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >Someone said the job of a spiritual devotee like a minister or even a counsellor >is to kill oneself very slowly and very intelligently for his fellow man. The >crucifiction of the spirit on the cross of matter will take place slowly over >many lifetimes or symbolically as an event in the life of the historic Jesus and >in our individual mind as the gnostic crucifiction of our individual personality >to a higher Self and resurrection as one with that Self. I would rather use the words "give oneself very slowly" as an act of sacrifice through love for his fellow man. The word "kill" implies some kind of destruction, rather than a letting go of one's selfish desires. The act of surrender to the higher will is bliss rather the feeling of nails being pounded in, because the energies that were once blocked are now moving freely and powerfully through the individual. -Ann E. Bermingham From euser@euronet.nl Sun Sep 1 14:59:38 1996 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: RE: authorial reluctance (reply to Kim) Message-Id: <199609011459.QAA00508@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim: thanks for the references (URL & Subba Rao book). It seems that the Web is very diverse and rich on material already. Image what it will become with VRML.. In friendship, Martin From euser@euronet.nl Sun Sep 1 14:59:40 1996 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: the WWW within Message-Id: <199609011459.QAA00511@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" M>I think that we are >all ready to learn something practical *now*, not in some distant future! Alan>Indeed we are. Not just we who subscribe to the various lists, but anyone and everyone. The "Web Link" to "The Masters" is nothing more (nothing more!?) IMHO and IMH experience than a link through each and every human psyche to the knowledge of human wisdom stored, not in some "Akasic" record, but in the group mind/soul of the human race itself - the "collective unconscious" of Jungian psychology. >It doesn't come free, though - we need to work at it. My understanding of the "collective unconscious" is that of a Field of consciousness. I also think that it is a multiple layered Field in which each of us is integrated (unconscious to most of us). This is the natural basis for the premise of the Brotherhood of man. One can contact more inner layers of this Field (e.g.,noetic mind) and integrate that phase of consciousness into the more outer layers through daily life experience. This has a bearing on our relations to others, who will partake in our experiences to some degree. This whole topic of integration of inner experience into daily life is of major significance as it is the way societies transform themselves. What do you think about that? Martin From euser@euronet.nl Sun Sep 1 14:59:44 1996 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: Cayce & Psychism Message-Id: <199609011459.QAA00517@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Paul>There are frequent workshops and >conferences at the headquarters on such things-- an upcoming one on regression, >for example-- and the whole point of the study group program is >a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life. P> The Cayce approach minimizes the >importance of Masters, emphasizes the Christ Consciousness as >an ever-present guide, and encourages people to balance >physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path. It regards >psychic faculties as ordinary and unremarkable, to be used with >caution but without exaggerated anxiety. Bee>Sounds like a practical approach to the enormous interest in psychic things that abound today. I have run across the idea that the sutras of Patanjali should be revived and the methods of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies should now be encouraged because humanity's evolutionary stage has arrived at a point where these various psychic abilities are beginning to manifest themselves. I've come across such ideas in Vitvan's writings on Patanjali's sutras. Unfortunately, I've just studied a small part of this work so I cannot assess the feasibility of his approach. If you have formed some opinion on his method of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies, feel free to discuss it if you want. Bee>If the psychic centers are beginning to stir then it seems sensible to educate people about that, rather than let it happen out of the blue and cause fear and possible mental problems. Yes, I agree: educate, educate.. Many millions of people are trying to get some grasp of what's happening in this world on this area and methodologies are being developed to help people in their need to integrate the spiritual (energy, consciousness) into their daily life. My prediction is that this topic will get more attention in the next millenium as it presents a major step forward for humanity along the line of natural evolution (paradigms of wholeness). It should also be a most relevant topic of discussion for Theosophical circles IMO. Bee>I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around 65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what will be done about it, if anything!! It is simple to see disasters coming when this fact is not openly faced and dealt with. The need for education on the natural order is very high, I think. Something that is recognized by many New Age type of organizations and these will offer instruction as they see fit. It may be our duty to offer as high quality (clear and practical) instruction/education as we can manage. My hope is that awareness of these duties will become more generally realized (within or without Theosophical circles) in order to guide humanity towards a brighter future. Paul: if you feel like presenting more info on the Cayce approach (such as 'a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life and the Christ Consciousness as an ever-present guide', and 'encourages people to balance physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path') please let us know. Martin From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Sep 1 16:27:37 1996 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:27:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960901122737_513937514@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: love affair For Gurdjieff's sake let us hope he was making it up. Can you image him at 18 with HPB sitting on his lap? SQAUSH! Chuck the Heretic From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Sep 1 17:08:07 1996 Date: 01 Sep 96 13:08:07 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Love Affair Message-Id: <960901170806_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >For Gurdjieff's sake let us hope he was making it up. Can you image him at >18 with HPB sitting on his lap? >SQAUSH! No, no, no. He was sitting on HER lap. -Ann E. Bermingham From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sun Sep 1 22:53:59 1996 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:53:59 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Cayce & Psychism Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960901225359.0068b4cc@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:03 AM 01/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Paul>There are frequent workshops and >>conferences at the headquarters on such things-- an upcoming one on regression, >>for example-- and the whole point of the study group program is >>a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life. > >P> The Cayce approach minimizes the >>importance of Masters, emphasizes the Christ Consciousness as >>an ever-present guide, and encourages people to balance >>physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path. It regards >>psychic faculties as ordinary and unremarkable, to be used with >>caution but without exaggerated anxiety. > >Bee>Sounds like a practical approach to the enormous interest in psychic things >that abound today. I have run across the idea that the sutras of Patanjali >should be revived and the methods of attaining mastery of ones own psychic >energies should now be encouraged because humanity's evolutionary stage has >arrived at a point where these various psychic abilities are beginning to >manifest themselves. > > I've come across such ideas in Vitvan's writings on Patanjali's sutras. >Unfortunately, I've just studied a small part of this work so I cannot assess >the feasibility of his approach. If you have formed some opinion on his method >of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies, feel free to discuss it >if you want. It is difficult to discuss at this stage because one has to be aware of the connection between him and Korzybski (father of General Semantics). Vitvan does an excellent job of enlarging on the sutras within the framework of what they term non-aristotelian semantics. As I understand it, much psychic difficulty could stem from our lack of understanding of the symbols (words) we use to describe our own experiences. Every thing is a personal experience within each one of us and we use agreed upon symbols to express these experiences to each other. Unfortunately most of us abstract from an original experience of something, in a sloppy way and end up using symbols that Korsybski calls noises because they have wandered out of the path of abstraction of the reality of the experience and into wishful thinking, emotional desires etc. Therefore Patanjali says that control of our desire nature becomes very necessary if we want a healthy mental body to pursue our quest and further development through the psychic realms without problems. Here is a small quote from Vitvan's 'Natural Order Process' Vol 2. "Patanjali's work may well be called "The High Road to Mastership." A beginner in the Quest and student of this work who has not been familiar with the term mastership, may find it difficult to adjust his semantic reactions to the idea that the word mastership represents the next stage in what is called individual development or evolution of the race. The words "individual" and "race" have reference to the highest developed ones on this planet irrespective of ethnological divisions, nationality, etc. We have the term "master" used in different lines of endeavor; for instance, we have master craftsman, the master of a school, worthy master of a fraternal order, etc. Similarly, there are those who specialize in the science of individual development and become masters of that science. Any given individual can go just so far in cultural attainments, artistic accomplishments, education, technological craftsmanship, etc. without advancing the awareness of fundamentals of reality beyond those orientations described as "objective"; i.e., and still remain conscious of himself in an 'objective' sense. Beyond this point he cannot go by further developing intellectual ideas about himself and the universe. "Who by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" To offset from this object-predicate manifold or orientation and enter a process of reorientation respecting the fundamentals of himself and the universe is to enter the way to mastership. Mastership, therefore, is a term designating the culmination of this reorientation process. We know of no better method of presenting the way to mastership than by explaining, in commentary form, the sutras as given by Patanjali. In so doing we bring substantial evidence to bear upon the statement that the seers of old clearly understood the fundamental energy-structure of this world." "Patanjali's methodology may be summarized as follows: 1) Disentangle the psyche from the elemental, animal and animalized human desire influences by the superior mental powers; 2) Direct the forces by which the psychic-nature functions to the centers in which Mind contacts the personality in identity with 'the objective world', and thence into the Mind-level of the individualized Self or Master; 3) Through control and purification of the thinking-principle and the instrumentality of Mind, induces will to take charge of the psyche; 4) By conscious functioning in will, free and clear from all hindrances or modifications by the thinking-principle, liberate the seer or Master and enter the real world. This method of development does not permit any so-called "psychic experiences" during the process of entering the real world. We consider it one of the finest and most clear-cut methods for higher attainment ever given, and one which reflects our perception and understanding of the natural order process." Later in the sutras there is an explanation about the different types of psychic experiences and the fact that there are some levels that are more real than others. It would seem to me that some sort of unemotional and mentally satisfying symbolism may need to be invented to be able to speak of psychic experiences in a useful manner. While so many words used these days hold fearful and even psychotic connotations, it seems rather daunting to try to explain one's own psychic experiences in an understandable way especially to someone in the throes of scaring themselves into serious trouble through lack of knowledge of what is happening to them. If it is the time for humanity to experience and overcome this area of reality then it is real scary to think how little proper knowledge is around for us to use. The knowledge is there but we all seem reluctant to study it and to apply it. > > Yes, I agree: educate, educate.. >Many millions of people are trying to get some grasp of what's happening in this >world on this area and methodologies are being developed to help people in >their >need to integrate the spiritual (energy, consciousness) into their daily life. >My prediction is that this topic will get more attention in the next millenium >as it presents a major step forward for humanity along the line of natural >evolution (paradigms of wholeness). It should also be a most relevant topic of discussion for Theosophical circles IMO. > > >Bee>I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around >65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying >degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of >people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what >will be done about it, if anything!! > > It is simple to see disasters coming when this fact is not openly >faced and dealt with. The need for education on the natural order is very high, >I think. Something that is recognized by many New Age type of organizations >and these will offer instruction as they see fit. It may be our duty to offer >as high quality (clear and practical) instruction/education as we can manage. >My hope is that awareness of these duties will become more generally realized >(within or without Theosophical circles) in order to guide humanity towards >a brighter future.> > >Martin > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. BREAKFAST.COM halted...Cereal Port not Responding From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 1 23:38:53 1996 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:38:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Creative Loving Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <960901130347_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960901130347_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes > >I would rather use the words "give oneself very slowly" as an act of sacrifice > The word "kill" implies some kind of >destruction, rather than a letting go of one's selfish desires. The act of >surrender to the higher will is bliss rather the feeling of nails being pounded >in I would rather use the words "give *of* oneself, not as an act of sacrifice, but as an act of love which can be repeated over and over, continually refilled from the "Eternal Spirit" with which we are all connected. There is then no need of "surrender" to anything, only to try to do what is necessary as our contribution to the well-being of all that lives. The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does "kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. Time that *we* dumped *them*! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 1 23:26:32 1996 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:26:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the WWW within In-Reply-To: <199609011459.QAA00511@mail.euronet.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199609011459.QAA00511@mail.euronet.nl>, Martin_Euser writes >My understanding of the "collective unconscious" is that of a Field >of consciousness. I also think that it is a multiple layered Field in which >each of us is integrated (unconscious to most of us). This is the natural basis >for the premise of the Brotherhood of man. One can contact more inner layers >of this Field (e.g.,noetic mind) and integrate that phase of consciousness into >the more outer layers through daily life experience. This has a bearing on >our relations to others, who will partake in our experiences to some degree. >This whole topic of integration of inner experience into daily life is of >major significance as it is the way societies transform themselves. >What do you think about that? I think I can agree with your viewpoint almost exactly, except for the "premise" of the "Brotherhood of man." It is not, I do not think, a premise, but a fact of existence, and it is not a "Brotherhood of man" but an inter-connectedness of all life (not only human) with all other life. What do *you* think about that? Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Sep 2 02:45:50 1996 Date: 01 Sep 96 22:45:50 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-Id: <960902024549_72723.2375_FHP50-2@CompuServe.COM> Alan: > The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual bliss. -Ann E. Bermingham From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Sep 1 21:56:19 1996 Date: 01 Sep 96 17:56:19 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Remember memories of past lives Message-Id: <960901215618_72723.2375_FHP45-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: > I am finding that my past life experience as the the sick child has somewhat obsessed >and "possessed" me in my everyday reality. I am trying to decide if I need to >get special help and feel I may be in what Cristina Grof calls a "spiritual >emergency" of sorts. It seems we may forget past lives for very, very good >reasons. Or perhaps this past life keeps coming up now because it needs to be dealt with. When I was in college I met a man who caused me great emotional turmoil everytime I saw him. I'd probably spoken three words to him as a fellow art student, yet he caused an avalanche of feelings in me. We did get to know each other as friends and he gave me copy of Be Here Now and introduced me to other spiritual ideas that were, at that time, foreign to my culture and family background. Later, I found out he was a student of mine in a past life, giving me a needed shove on the path in this life. So there was a lot of emotional pain and confusion that went on for at least two years, yet it worked out in the end. I agree, though, that knowing all of our past lives, or even several that don't pertain to this one, would be very distracting. -Ann E. Bermingham From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Sep 2 02:44:35 1996 Date: 01 Sep 96 22:44:35 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-Id: <960902024435_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM> Alan: > The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual bliss. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 02:59:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Theosophy Message-ID: In message <199608310103.VAA10504@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >Theosophy is not a cult with the Masters & HPB at the head, >it's a way of life lived by present day Theosophists. And, ideally, it's >lived by the individual as he/she sees fit, & understands it, not as either >the masters or HPB said it should be lived. They themselves told us to use >our own common sense & to not heroworship them. Dear Liesel, Please post this every month or so just to remind us .... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 31 Aug 96 16:55:42 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Ann: End is Near Message-ID: <960831205541_74024.3352_BHT177-1@CompuServe.COM> As for ends, the end is always near. I just read an obit in the morning paper for a 23-year-old woman whose small plane went down in Botswana. We never know when the end of our storyline is going to happen (unless you're psychic). The only sane approach is to realize that as personalities we are finite creatures drawn and fleshed out by our Souls, who working through us gains knowledge (gnosis) and wisdom in a particular lifetime, then withdraws to contemplate the lessons and plan for the next venture into matter. The end is always near, but so is the beginning. - Ann E. Bermingham I agree that this is one of the great special attractions and blessing of the theosophical perspective: to give the world and the individual as many chances as it, he or she needs to "get it right" - no hell or heaven for knowing the right name when you knock at the "pearly gate"--- Psst! Jesus sent me and all that :) I have more or less stated that I have been a bit of a wastrel. I always expected to live fast die young. But all those rich and famous rock stars and (poor addicts as well) have gone on and I am still here. I guess I have lived long enough, 44 now, to believe that suffering and old age are not the worst things that can happen to people. Not knowing love and doing what you are supposed to even if that is "dying young". I have tried not to understand the folk expression: "only the good die young," but am coming to understand it more everyday. I have worked with the elderly quite closely. I have seen them lying in their own urine and feces, in incredible pain and still insist that they wanted to live that they had the TV and life was "wonderful". The relatives and hospital staff wondered with me at the meaning of these "burdens" to others. What lessons could they be teaching? Do I want to know? I wonder if some are given the special role of "dying young" - for seemingly no reason and living a long time -seemingly with out meaning. These are the elements of fate and karma that are the hardest to look at for me. Does my suffering force me to CREATE meaning where none exists? If all is maya, and suffering is maya, can I fool the fooler, can I create an illusion of love, hope and joy? Is this the real meaning of slay the slayer? The divine fool by being connected to the higher becomes the magician that can transmute even though he is walking off the cliff with the damn hound yapping at this butt :) Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 31 Aug 96 16:56:11 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: A Course in Creative Suffering - What a Miracle! Message-ID: <960831205611_74024.3352_BHT177-2@CompuServe.COM> Someone said the job of a spiritual devotee like a minister or even a counsellor is to kill oneself very slowly and very intelligently for his fellow man. The crucifiction of the spirit on the cross of matter will take place slowly over many lifetimes or symbolically as an event in the life of the historic Jesus and in our individual mind as the gnostic crucifiction of our individual personality to a higher Self and resurrection as one with that Self. The Buddha said all is suffering, it is in the nature of the concantenation of being and desire (no-being as a perpetual eternal LACK or ACTIVE NOTHINGNESS seeking FULLFILLMENT. The preacher in Eclessiates said all is vanity (nothing) and vexation of the spirit. But we are called to suffer or to feel our existential state authentically and honestly, we have choices: 1) the fool - denial of the reality of suffering and the active principle of "evil" or "entropy" or "emptiness" 2)the devil - escape into the senses as temporary relief (hedonism) 3)the hanged man - suffering senseslessly and stupidly by trial and error as a negative role model of the fool and what might happen to one (there but for the Grace of God, go I, so I had better get my act together ) 4)the magician of creative suffering - having children to feed clothe, educate and nurture or creating works of art and commerce, or nuturing humanity itself on some level (the Masters - the Boddhisattva vow maybe one more true acceptance of suffering as self-imposed Necessity. 5) the divine Fool who has transcended suffering while remaining in it. 6) the hermit - contemplation of suffering and one could go on of course An interesting idea is presented by Liz Geene in "The Astrology of Fate": She writes: " I am still in no position to know whether Chrysaippos the Neoplatonist was right when he described dual fate as energy and substance. Madame Blavatsky, after all, equated karma with substance, while the destiny inherent in mythic themes is the 'energy' aspect. Perhaps the two are not really separate, but simply 'feel' different because they are experieneced at different levels." I don't know where this idea is stated by HPB. I think I remember she called many things a substance-principle. The whole discussion around mulaprakriti is obstruse to me. We tend to think of substance as something to be molded and transformed by the active energy of the will, thus we create our on fate by involuting into substance which then is the very process of evolution. The English conotation of fate as the opposite of free will is the problem for the West. In the East, karma and fate are more closely twins. C.G. Jung said: "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do." "Sin" is fighting against fate (will of the Higher Larger Self), but this creative tension is what we may experinence at once as free will, power, and intentionality, the original "I as not that which is desired" with inevitable frustration of which creates suffering and the release of the tension which creates temproary "pleasure" in some form. The tension must be constantly recreated and released like Sisyphus rolling his rock forever up the hill just to see it roll down again every time. The rock and the hill and the rolling down are there for all of us. Maybe spirituality could be whistling while you work, helping a friend roll his rock up the hill for a change, changing hills occasionally :) The fated part is inescapable, but the creativity response and attitude is infinitie. The divine play of Lila is a cosmic joke of the playing of the gods, the tragic suffering of the sentient being in the drama or perhaps a tragi-comedy a little at a time. The miracle of laugher to heal illness and alleviate suffering is well known, it is a miracle and gift of Jove. Embracing one's fate as suffering seems to go against all within us. It is a work against nature, an opus contra naturum, according to Jung. Spirit is a type of miracle and to feel its energy and listen to the Voice of the Silence is a gift, a miracle of seeing things different as in the eyes of the child (HPB mentions becoming like a child, in echo of becoming like children to enter the Kingdom Christ and in advance of finding the inner child of today). The whole process of life seem to be a course in lessons of desire and suffering, but the fact that we can create, and intelligently direct as we embrace suffering with compassion and even the release of joviality at the whole mess seems trully a miracle. Namate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:05:55 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: psychism Message-ID: <199608312113.RAA28316@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > this blockage that >had been placed against teaching people that psychic phenomena can be >encouraged and sensibly managed. Bee, you started me athinking. I think this blockage is caused by fear of the unknown, also by the experiences psychic children and adults have often had. The parents either think the kids are imagining things, or they tell them not to do it, or some such foolishness, which confuses & discourages the kids. I know a few psychic adults, and, until very recently they've most often had to hide their gifts, because they were misunderstood, treated as liars and quacks, sometimes were even threatened by the Law ... but it all boils down with that hardly anyone really knows how to handle psychism, and is afraid of it. With this new interest in the subject coming in, I'm often amused at the TV ads of psychics, where their clients praise the marvelous talents of the psychic who has been able to tell them all about their past history. The clients don't know that one of the easiest things for a psychic person to do is read another's thoughts, and from that get all the information about them very easily. So if, as Bee rightly says, people are interested in ESP at this era, what has just occurred to me is that we Theosophists could be of service. When you push all the negative things we do about psychism aside, we do have a few capable psychics in our midst, and we have lots of literature describing psychic experiences. We also have any number of people, such as myself, who have come in longterm contact with some psychics and know at least something about how it works. So why not use what we know, and teach the others? I think that would be helpful. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 31 Aug 96 17:57:17 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Reply to Keith - The End is Near Message-ID: <960831215716_72723.2375_FHP48-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >I agree that this is one of the great special attractions and blessing of the >theosophical perspective: to give the world and the individual as many chances >at it . . . From what I understand, the chances aren't quite endless. There's a set time in which if you don't get caught up with the group, you get set back for more remedial work. >I have more or less stated that I have been a bit of a wastrel. How titillating! >I have tried not to understand the folk expression: "only the good die young," but am coming to >understand it more everyday. I thought that was just a line from a Billy Joel song. Some anti-Catholic thing where he suggested that Catholic high school girls fling off their uniforms and better yet, throw off their inhibitions. >I have worked with the elderly quite closely. I have seen them lying in their >own urine and feces, in incredible pain and still insist that they wanted to >live that they had the TV and life was "wonderful". Consider that many mentally depressed people, of all ages, whether due to physical or emotional problems are eager to kill themselves. That suggests that the viewpoint of whether life is wonderful or terrible lies in one's consciousness. >The relatives and hospital staff wondered with me at the meaning of these "burdens" to >others. What lessons could they be teaching? Do I want to know? I wonder if some are >given the special role of "dying young" - for seemingly no reason and living a >long time -seemingly with out meaning. The purpose of the Soul can be far different from that of the personality in terms of meaning. I heard a very wise woman say that some people only live for 3 minutes and accomplish what they came here to do. We are spirits acting through masks. >These are the elements of fate and karma >that are the hardest to look at for me. Does my suffering force me to CREATE >meaning where none exists? If all is maya, and suffering is maya, can I fool the >fooler, can I create an illusion of love, hope and joy? Is this the real >meaning of slay the slayer? If you can establish contact with the Soul/Ego, you can use intuitive powers to see behind the veil of illusion, material and astral, and into the meanings and purpose behind things. Of course, these are only words. It makes more sense to experience it. Love, hope and joy is no illusion. It springs forth from your spiritual core like an unending fountain. That is why yogis, Theosophists and holy men everywhere pursue it with more fervor than if they were looking for a gold mine. > The divine fool by being connected to the higher >becomes the magician that can transmute even though he is walking off the cliff >with the damn hound yapping at this butt :) Well put! Namaste to you, Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:14:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Kill out desire! - The End is Near Message-ID: <960831191458_274124475@emout19.mail.aol.com> One little question. Why should anyone repent of something they enjoy so much? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:37:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Peter in Rome(part 2) Message-ID: In message <4F985F7127@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >It is not, however, difficult to show that the fact of his bishopric is so well >attested as to be historically certain. All of the writers who you quote are Christian bishops of a *much* later period. We have their claims, but no actual evidence separate from those claims. In any case, it is (IMO) doubtful whether the office of "bishop" even existed at such an early period. Apostles, yes; Bishops, no. One account gives Linus (a Briton) as first "bishop" of Rome, and not Clement, but this too is a later Christian source (See Ante-Nicene Fathers somewhere for this). As I support the modern view that 1 Timothy is not by Paul, then there is no evidence before the writings of such as Clement and Ignatius of any Bishoprics in the early churches, and we are into the second century by then. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:44:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Peter in Rome(part 1) Message-ID: In message <4F92BE5EE3@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >Suposing that Linus received the bishopric of Rome in 69AD, HPB >concludes that he could not receive this bishopric from Peter, because >Eusebius and Irineaus mentions that this moment occurred around 64-68AD >during the Nero`s persecution under the fire of Rome at 67AD. >But here there is no contradiction. It`s perfectly possible that this >difference of only two years, can be explained by some error in dates given >by Eusebius or Iraenaeus. It is also perfectly possible that there is no such error, and a contradiction does exist. If there is any truth to the "episcopate" of Linus, he would most likely have taken over as Apostle/Shaliach from Paul, *who stayed with Linus in Rome for some years* according to the accounts attributed to Paul himself. The dates would then fit quite reasonably, as we do not know for certain either when Paul died, or where Paul died. There remains a tradition that he fulfilled his desire to go on to Spain, but no evidence for it. The claims for Paul's and Peter's martyrdom in Rome are late. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:31:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Peter in Rome(part 1) Message-ID: In message <4F92BE5EE3@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >But Rome, was also referred as Babylon by ancient >christians, for instance at Revelatinos 18:2 and 14:8. So Babilony here >means Rome. Enc. Brittanica writes: (vol9 p332 ) reference in Acts or Romans to residence of Peter in Rome gives pause BUT >is not conclusive. If Peter did write 1 Peter, the mention of babylon in >5:13 is fairly reliable evidence that Peter resided at some time in the >capital city. .. and Babylon was the capital city of the Persian Empire! However, whether there is any substance to the much beloved and totally unproven hypothesis that 1 Peter uses "Babylon" as a substitute for Rome is possibly of no importance whatever. Indeed there is a greeting from Babylon at the end of the Greek received text of 1 Peter, but it very possibly was an *added greeting* by a later scribe who forwarded the epistle (probably from the real Babylon). In the very ancient Aramaic "Peshitta" text of 1 Peter (The Aramean churches have never recogised 2 Peter) the verses mentioning Babylon are not present, and the letter thus appears as a General Epistle which could have been written from anywhere. The same churches do not receive the Book of Revelation, which is the only other place where any meaningful substitution of "Babylon" for "Rome" appears. In other words, whenever Jesus and the apostles lived, one of the earliest and, in its day, largest churches in Christendom, was concerned with neither place in any distinctive sense. Jerusalem was their "HQ" until after 135 a.d. (c.e.). Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:47:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Peter in Rome(part 1) Message-ID: In message <4F92BE5EE3@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >Some more later comments of Iraenaeus (180AD) and Eusebius (263-340AD) also >must be taken in question, because they reflect ancient traditions, and ^^^^^^^^^^ > >were not contested by any christian writer of their time. Hardly surprising if the Christians of the time wanted to believe what is, *and remains* ONLY A TRADITION. People in general *outside* of the churches probably never even heard of either of the apostles Peter and Paul! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:50:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Peter in Rome(part 2) Message-ID: In message <4F985F7127@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, >committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this >Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy (2Tm4:21). To him succeeded >Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement >was allotted the bishopric. With respect, all of your arguments are not very different from those of Theosophists who quote Blavatsky to "prove" that what Blavatsky said was correct! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:24:52 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: the voice Message-ID: <199609010032.UAA04401@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >The whole process of life seem to be a course in lessons of desire and >suffering, but the fact that we can create, and intelligently direct as we >embrace suffering with compassion and even the release of joviality at the whole >mess seems trully a miracle. > Dear Ken, Keep your eye on the miracle. It grows. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:28:56 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: To: Keith Re: the voice Message-ID: <199609010036.UAA04581@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >>The whole process of life seem to be a course in lessons of desire and >>suffering, but the fact that we can create, and intelligently direct as we >>embrace suffering with compassion and even the release of joviality at the whole >>mess seems trully a miracle. >> >Dear Ken, I meant to say >>The whole process of life seem to be a course in lessons of desire and >>suffering, but the fact that we can create, and intelligently direct as we >>embrace suffering with compassion and even the release of joviality at the whole >>mess seems trully a miracle. >> >Dear Ken, > >Keep your eye on the miracle. It grows. > >Liesel >>The whole process of life seem to be a course in lessons of desire and >>suffering, but the fact that we can create, and intelligently direct as we >>embrace suffering with compassion and even the release of joviality at the whole >>mess seems trully a miracle. >> >Dear Ken, I meant to say "Dear Keit", sorry 'bout that.lfd > >Keep your eye on the miracle. It grows. > >Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:35:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: the voice Message-ID: <199609010043.UAA04803@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >>Keith: >> >>I don't know if this is what your are getting at, but you have made me think >>about killing out ATTACHMENT to my desires > >Liesel: > >How about *letting go* of an attachment - maybe then it will "die" by >itself without this violent "kill" idea .... > >Alan >--------- Good idea! LFD From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Sep 96 09:03:48 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Suffering Message-ID: <960901130347_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >Someone said the job of a spiritual devotee like a minister or even a counsellor >is to kill oneself very slowly and very intelligently for his fellow man. The >crucifiction of the spirit on the cross of matter will take place slowly over >many lifetimes or symbolically as an event in the life of the historic Jesus and >in our individual mind as the gnostic crucifiction of our individual personality >to a higher Self and resurrection as one with that Self. I would rather use the words "give oneself very slowly" as an act of sacrifice through love for his fellow man. The word "kill" implies some kind of destruction, rather than a letting go of one's selfish desires. The act of surrender to the higher will is bliss rather the feeling of nails being pounded in, because the energies that were once blocked are now moving freely and powerfully through the individual. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: RE: authorial reluctance (reply to Kim) Message-ID: <199609011459.QAA00508@mail.euronet.nl> Kim: thanks for the references (URL & Subba Rao book). It seems that the Web is very diverse and rich on material already. Image what it will become with VRML.. In friendship, Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: the WWW within Message-ID: <199609011459.QAA00511@mail.euronet.nl> M>I think that we are >all ready to learn something practical *now*, not in some distant future! Alan>Indeed we are. Not just we who subscribe to the various lists, but anyone and everyone. The "Web Link" to "The Masters" is nothing more (nothing more!?) IMHO and IMH experience than a link through each and every human psyche to the knowledge of human wisdom stored, not in some "Akasic" record, but in the group mind/soul of the human race itself - the "collective unconscious" of Jungian psychology. >It doesn't come free, though - we need to work at it. My understanding of the "collective unconscious" is that of a Field of consciousness. I also think that it is a multiple layered Field in which each of us is integrated (unconscious to most of us). This is the natural basis for the premise of the Brotherhood of man. One can contact more inner layers of this Field (e.g.,noetic mind) and integrate that phase of consciousness into the more outer layers through daily life experience. This has a bearing on our relations to others, who will partake in our experiences to some degree. This whole topic of integration of inner experience into daily life is of major significance as it is the way societies transform themselves. What do you think about that? Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:59:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: Cayce & Psychism Message-ID: <199609011459.QAA00517@mail.euronet.nl> Paul>There are frequent workshops and >conferences at the headquarters on such things-- an upcoming one on regression, >for example-- and the whole point of the study group program is >a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life. P> The Cayce approach minimizes the >importance of Masters, emphasizes the Christ Consciousness as >an ever-present guide, and encourages people to balance >physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path. It regards >psychic faculties as ordinary and unremarkable, to be used with >caution but without exaggerated anxiety. Bee>Sounds like a practical approach to the enormous interest in psychic things that abound today. I have run across the idea that the sutras of Patanjali should be revived and the methods of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies should now be encouraged because humanity's evolutionary stage has arrived at a point where these various psychic abilities are beginning to manifest themselves. I've come across such ideas in Vitvan's writings on Patanjali's sutras. Unfortunately, I've just studied a small part of this work so I cannot assess the feasibility of his approach. If you have formed some opinion on his method of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies, feel free to discuss it if you want. Bee>If the psychic centers are beginning to stir then it seems sensible to educate people about that, rather than let it happen out of the blue and cause fear and possible mental problems. Yes, I agree: educate, educate.. Many millions of people are trying to get some grasp of what's happening in this world on this area and methodologies are being developed to help people in their need to integrate the spiritual (energy, consciousness) into their daily life. My prediction is that this topic will get more attention in the next millenium as it presents a major step forward for humanity along the line of natural evolution (paradigms of wholeness). It should also be a most relevant topic of discussion for Theosophical circles IMO. Bee>I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around 65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what will be done about it, if anything!! It is simple to see disasters coming when this fact is not openly faced and dealt with. The need for education on the natural order is very high, I think. Something that is recognized by many New Age type of organizations and these will offer instruction as they see fit. It may be our duty to offer as high quality (clear and practical) instruction/education as we can manage. My hope is that awareness of these duties will become more generally realized (within or without Theosophical circles) in order to guide humanity towards a brighter future. Paul: if you feel like presenting more info on the Cayce approach (such as 'a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life and the Christ Consciousness as an ever-present guide', and 'encourages people to balance physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path') please let us know. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:27:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: love affair Message-ID: <960901122737_513937514@emout17.mail.aol.com> For Gurdjieff's sake let us hope he was making it up. Can you image him at 18 with HPB sitting on his lap? SQAUSH! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Sep 96 13:08:07 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Love Affair Message-ID: <960901170806_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >For Gurdjieff's sake let us hope he was making it up. Can you image him at >18 with HPB sitting on his lap? >SQAUSH! No, no, no. He was sitting on HER lap. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Sep 96 17:56:19 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Remember memories of past lives Message-ID: <960901215618_72723.2375_FHP45-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: > I am finding that my past life experience as the the sick child has somewhat obsessed >and "possessed" me in my everyday reality. I am trying to decide if I need to >get special help and feel I may be in what Cristina Grof calls a "spiritual >emergency" of sorts. It seems we may forget past lives for very, very good >reasons. Or perhaps this past life keeps coming up now because it needs to be dealt with. When I was in college I met a man who caused me great emotional turmoil everytime I saw him. I'd probably spoken three words to him as a fellow art student, yet he caused an avalanche of feelings in me. We did get to know each other as friends and he gave me copy of Be Here Now and introduced me to other spiritual ideas that were, at that time, foreign to my culture and family background. Later, I found out he was a student of mine in a past life, giving me a needed shove on the path in this life. So there was a lot of emotional pain and confusion that went on for at least two years, yet it worked out in the end. I agree, though, that knowing all of our past lives, or even several that don't pertain to this one, would be very distracting. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:53:59 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Cayce & Psychism Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960901225359.0068b4cc@whanganui.ac.nz> At 11:03 AM 01/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Paul>There are frequent workshops and >>conferences at the headquarters on such things-- an upcoming one on regression, >>for example-- and the whole point of the study group program is >>a practical, daily approach to the spiritual life. > >P> The Cayce approach minimizes the >>importance of Masters, emphasizes the Christ Consciousness as >>an ever-present guide, and encourages people to balance >>physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the path. It regards >>psychic faculties as ordinary and unremarkable, to be used with >>caution but without exaggerated anxiety. > >Bee>Sounds like a practical approach to the enormous interest in psychic things >that abound today. I have run across the idea that the sutras of Patanjali >should be revived and the methods of attaining mastery of ones own psychic >energies should now be encouraged because humanity's evolutionary stage has >arrived at a point where these various psychic abilities are beginning to >manifest themselves. > > I've come across such ideas in Vitvan's writings on Patanjali's sutras. >Unfortunately, I've just studied a small part of this work so I cannot assess >the feasibility of his approach. If you have formed some opinion on his method >of attaining mastery of ones own psychic energies, feel free to discuss it >if you want. It is difficult to discuss at this stage because one has to be aware of the connection between him and Korzybski (father of General Semantics). Vitvan does an excellent job of enlarging on the sutras within the framework of what they term non-aristotelian semantics. As I understand it, much psychic difficulty could stem from our lack of understanding of the symbols (words) we use to describe our own experiences. Every thing is a personal experience within each one of us and we use agreed upon symbols to express these experiences to each other. Unfortunately most of us abstract from an original experience of something, in a sloppy way and end up using symbols that Korsybski calls noises because they have wandered out of the path of abstraction of the reality of the experience and into wishful thinking, emotional desires etc. Therefore Patanjali says that control of our desire nature becomes very necessary if we want a healthy mental body to pursue our quest and further development through the psychic realms without problems. Here is a small quote from Vitvan's 'Natural Order Process' Vol 2. "Patanjali's work may well be called "The High Road to Mastership." A beginner in the Quest and student of this work who has not been familiar with the term mastership, may find it difficult to adjust his semantic reactions to the idea that the word mastership represents the next stage in what is called individual development or evolution of the race. The words "individual" and "race" have reference to the highest developed ones on this planet irrespective of ethnological divisions, nationality, etc. We have the term "master" used in different lines of endeavor; for instance, we have master craftsman, the master of a school, worthy master of a fraternal order, etc. Similarly, there are those who specialize in the science of individual development and become masters of that science. Any given individual can go just so far in cultural attainments, artistic accomplishments, education, technological craftsmanship, etc. without advancing the awareness of fundamentals of reality beyond those orientations described as "objective"; i.e., and still remain conscious of himself in an 'objective' sense. Beyond this point he cannot go by further developing intellectual ideas about himself and the universe. "Who by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" To offset from this object-predicate manifold or orientation and enter a process of reorientation respecting the fundamentals of himself and the universe is to enter the way to mastership. Mastership, therefore, is a term designating the culmination of this reorientation process. We know of no better method of presenting the way to mastership than by explaining, in commentary form, the sutras as given by Patanjali. In so doing we bring substantial evidence to bear upon the statement that the seers of old clearly understood the fundamental energy-structure of this world." "Patanjali's methodology may be summarized as follows: 1) Disentangle the psyche from the elemental, animal and animalized human desire influences by the superior mental powers; 2) Direct the forces by which the psychic-nature functions to the centers in which Mind contacts the personality in identity with 'the objective world', and thence into the Mind-level of the individualized Self or Master; 3) Through control and purification of the thinking-principle and the instrumentality of Mind, induces will to take charge of the psyche; 4) By conscious functioning in will, free and clear from all hindrances or modifications by the thinking-principle, liberate the seer or Master and enter the real world. This method of development does not permit any so-called "psychic experiences" during the process of entering the real world. We consider it one of the finest and most clear-cut methods for higher attainment ever given, and one which reflects our perception and understanding of the natural order process." Later in the sutras there is an explanation about the different types of psychic experiences and the fact that there are some levels that are more real than others. It would seem to me that some sort of unemotional and mentally satisfying symbolism may need to be invented to be able to speak of psychic experiences in a useful manner. While so many words used these days hold fearful and even psychotic connotations, it seems rather daunting to try to explain one's own psychic experiences in an understandable way especially to someone in the throes of scaring themselves into serious trouble through lack of knowledge of what is happening to them. If it is the time for humanity to experience and overcome this area of reality then it is real scary to think how little proper knowledge is around for us to use. The knowledge is there but we all seem reluctant to study it and to apply it. > > Yes, I agree: educate, educate.. >Many millions of people are trying to get some grasp of what's happening in this >world on this area and methodologies are being developed to help people in >their >need to integrate the spiritual (energy, consciousness) into their daily life. >My prediction is that this topic will get more attention in the next millenium >as it presents a major step forward for humanity along the line of natural >evolution (paradigms of wholeness). It should also be a most relevant topic of discussion for Theosophical circles IMO. > > >Bee>I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around >65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying >degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of >people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what >will be done about it, if anything!! > > It is simple to see disasters coming when this fact is not openly >faced and dealt with. The need for education on the natural order is very high, >I think. Something that is recognized by many New Age type of organizations >and these will offer instruction as they see fit. It may be our duty to offer >as high quality (clear and practical) instruction/education as we can manage. >My hope is that awareness of these duties will become more generally realized >(within or without Theosophical circles) in order to guide humanity towards >a brighter future.> > >Martin > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. BREAKFAST.COM halted...Cereal Port not Responding From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:38:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Creative Loving Message-ID: In message <960901130347_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes > >I would rather use the words "give oneself very slowly" as an act of sacrifice > The word "kill" implies some kind of >destruction, rather than a letting go of one's selfish desires. The act of >surrender to the higher will is bliss rather the feeling of nails being pounded >in I would rather use the words "give *of* oneself, not as an act of sacrifice, but as an act of love which can be repeated over and over, continually refilled from the "Eternal Spirit" with which we are all connected. There is then no need of "surrender" to anything, only to try to do what is necessary as our contribution to the well-being of all that lives. The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does "kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. Time that *we* dumped *them*! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:26:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the WWW within Message-ID: In message <199609011459.QAA00511@mail.euronet.nl>, Martin_Euser writes >My understanding of the "collective unconscious" is that of a Field >of consciousness. I also think that it is a multiple layered Field in which >each of us is integrated (unconscious to most of us). This is the natural basis >for the premise of the Brotherhood of man. One can contact more inner layers >of this Field (e.g.,noetic mind) and integrate that phase of consciousness into >the more outer layers through daily life experience. This has a bearing on >our relations to others, who will partake in our experiences to some degree. >This whole topic of integration of inner experience into daily life is of >major significance as it is the way societies transform themselves. >What do you think about that? I think I can agree with your viewpoint almost exactly, except for the "premise" of the "Brotherhood of man." It is not, I do not think, a premise, but a fact of existence, and it is not a "Brotherhood of man" but an inter-connectedness of all life (not only human) with all other life. What do *you* think about that? Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Sep 96 22:45:50 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-ID: <960902024549_72723.2375_FHP50-2@CompuServe.COM> Alan: > The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual bliss. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 08:20:11 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: The Theory of Relationships - Psychology & Astrology Message-ID: <322ADF04.7695@earthlink.net> The Theory of Relationships - Psychology & Astrology All human religion and culture is filled with rich and ancient symbolism. This symbolism has come down to us through many beautiful myths which illustrate universal human beliefs as well as through vastly intricate psychological symbol systems such as Masonic rituals and astrology charts. These symbol systems hold in them much that is of value in the understanding of the nature of humankind. Indeed, = mythological astrology and astronomy are two of the oldest scholarly disciplines known to us and do seem to prove very useful from a historical perspective -- but while today astronomy is accepted by all scientists as a legitimate area of research, the symbolic system of mythological astrology is not held in such high esteem. This lack of scientific interest occurs despite the widespread acceptance of symbolic systems like astrology by people in general in the west (indeed by Presidents, executives and many prominent individuals), their use in the Bible and in all major world religions and their official acceptance by whole nations in the east (such as India). = The so-called practice of astrology today (as a projective psychological mythological symbol system) is, however, very much removed from the helpful educational role it played in the pristine symbolical relational sciences (an aspect of psychosophy) of which it was a part in ages past. (1) The obvious widespread use of astrology and other mythological symbol systems by humanity today would seem to call for a large research effort along these lines and, if symbolic mythology is at all a reflection of human psychology then it would be true that statistical and mathematical research methods applied to the hypothesis offered by symbol systems such as astrology will show the usefulness of such symbol systems as a necessary area of the psychological sciences. However, just as the vast majority of qualified scientists do not wish to research such a thing as astrology, so the vast majority of sincere students of symbolic mythology lack sufficient scientific and mathematical training to legitimately demonstrate an appropriate level of scientific validity for symbol systems to the intelligentsia of the world. = Moreover, the many publicly practicing charlatan astrologers and many invalid claims by astrologers as well as astrology=92s incomplete public presentation, and most significantly the selfish misuse of its symbolism have greatly hampered the appropriate use of the symbolical psychological systems in their proper role of educating and helping human beings. There has been some research done by qualified scientists on astrological symbol systems but usually wrong or incomplete hypothesis were tested. Also there has been statistical research done by a few astrological investigators but it has usually lacked a sufficiently rigorous scientific methodology or theoretical closure to be convincing to the skeptic as to the value of symbolic relational philosophy. To wit, as written by one student, the ancient system of astrological symbolism needs to =93be lifted out of the hands of those interested in predictional astrology, out of the hands of the thousands who at this time spend much time =91casting=92 horoscopes (seeking to interpret their usually erroneous conclusions), and placed in the hands of trained mathematical scientists and in the hands of those who have given as much time to scientific training along astrological lines as is now given to training a reputable physician, a chemist or a biologist.=93= (2) A theoretical model of why mythological and psychological symbol systems (such as astrology) can be useful needs to be explicitly stated so that any relevant research may be seen as clearly indicative one way or another regarding the question of a symbol system=92s appropriate usefulness in the understanding of human nature. We shall call this model by the very general phrase of The Theory of Relationships. The central tenet of this theory is that all relationships are determined by vibratory resonance and that this resonance can be directly psychometrized in an appropriate symbol or combination of symbols. This tenet requires that we posit the existence of energy levels and frequencies of patterns which are electromagnetic yet psychological in nature and that symbols can be directly associated with such energy patterns through their innate resonance. = This theory makes many obvious predictions which are completely scientifically testable (see below) and a basic factor analysis of the many aspects of an astrology chart with conventional personality tests (such as the MMPI) would, it is predicted, reveal many enlightening correlates. Symbols can be ideographic (as in astrology), based on color, based on sound or can be mathematical in nature (as in geometry and numerology). In this theory variable relationships exist to some degree between all that is and the associative strength of for example a relationship between two people would be determined by the degree to which each resonated to the same vibration or frequency, such frequency vibration being determined by psychological typology and events such as shared experiences. = Resonance relationships represented by symbol systems can be both multi-dimensional in a spatial sense and qualitative in nature yet still be empirically verifiable. According to one researcher: = =93The language of symbolism, the science of the stars, the lines engraved on forehead and hand by life=92s experiences, all these are mark= s of recognition, points of contact which rightly interpreted indicate past, present and future events, as surely as the rising of the sun indicates the beginning of a new day. =93If all these facts can be understood and accepted, the majesty, purpose and power of Cosmic symbolism, which includes astrology and prophecy, may be seen, and that great phenomenon of life be dignified and raised to its true position in the minds of men instead of, as now, being relegated to the shades of superstition and made a by-word and epithet of contempt by some, and used for the deception and beguilement of their fellowmen by others.=94 (3) Understanding the qualities or resonance patterns of age-old yet persistently present symbol systems would provide a firm framework on which to build an understanding of human psychological processes and to build a modern understanding of our relation through reflective resonance patterns with broader natural energy processes. Along the lines of astrological symbolism the following research suggestions have been made by an interested co-worker who has studied Tibetan philosophy: =93Some day it will be of interest to make a scientific research and investigation into the power of balance which Libra wields and a consequent analysis of the effect of Libra in an individual life. It might then be possible to discover whether the particular life in which a man carries forward the process of reversal may not perhaps be one in which the sun is in Leo, with Libra rising. Such statistical studies have not yet been made, but there is much to be done along these lines; I only make suggestions, but it will, I think, be found that this is the case. A proper investigation likewise into the life history of spiritualism and of the mediums associated with it may prove that the majority of the mediums in the world who are of a low grade type or purely trance mediums=97negative and usually unintelligent =97are born in= Cancer with Pisces rising, or in Pisces with Cancer rising. Such studies would necessarily have to deal with hundreds of cases and be carried forward over a long period of time in order to prove the point which I seek to make. It would also be interesting to make an analysis of those particular incarnations and their horoscopes wherein the polar opposites both appear in relation to each other -- one as the sun sign and the other as the ascendant, for these lives usually express some degree of either equilibrium or of consummation; they will not in any case be negative lives or lacking in direction, event or purpose.... =93You will note that my purpose in this section of our treatise is to evoke interest and enquiry and to incite students to scientific, statistical and analytical investigation. Only in this way will my basic premises be proven and eventually substituted for the present unsatisfactory methods =97 methods which most astrologers who have any real capacity and insight regard as deplorable and unsatisfactory." (4) In conclusion, The Theory of Relationships can appropriately resolve many age-old issues and provide an efficacious perspective from which many helpful psychological understandings can be seen and demonstrated by scientific research. = References ---------- 1. The Secret Doctrine Vol. II: Anthropogenesis by H.P. Blavatsky. 2. Esoteric Healing by A.A. Bailey, p. 277. 3. Teachings of the Temple, Vol. 1, p. 197. 4. Esoteric Astrology by A.A. Bailey, pp. 183-184. -- = *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA = *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:30:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Love Affair Message-ID: <960902113009_514383229@emout14.mail.aol.com> Ann, thank goodness. It had me scared for a minute. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:40:02 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: suffering Message-ID: <199609021547.LAA10913@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Someone said the job of a spiritual devotee like a minister or even a counsellor >is to kill oneself very slowly and very intelligently for his fellow man. The >crucifiction of the spirit on the cross of matter will take place slowly over >many lifetimes ........................................................... Serving as a minister or a counselor is envigorating, in the sense that a person in the helping professions feels useful and learns a lot while (s)he's working. It can be tiring to work with someone who's very upset, it's also tiring to work around sick old people all the time. In that case, you need to replenish yourself after each exposure. (in order to avoid burn out). But on the whole, if you're helping, I find, it makes you feel good that you are able to do it. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Sep 96 22:44:35 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-ID: <960902024435_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM> Alan: > The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual bliss. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:51:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Psychic abberration Message-ID: <199609020951.LAA15568@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Bee Brown wrote: "I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around 65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what will be done about it, if anything!!" Sadly, I have to concur. Never have I been in contact with so many people who have mental difficulties, including a few suicide attempts. Is it the backlash of their flower-power background, overpopulation, TV-realism, hectic life-rythm? Prozac is effecting wonders. Anyone ever read "The Aberree"? Michael From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:51:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Whose Theosophy? Message-ID: <199609020951.LAA15600@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Liesel wrote: >'Scuse me, but with a statement like that, I'm wondering what kind of >theosophy you've been studying, if any. OOOh, stepped on a sore toe there! Was it the truth after all? About my background: after shaking hands with G.d.P. in 1938 I was sent from the Lotus Circle as a naughty boy. Then again I shook hands with James Long, but was given a similar treatment. And now I run the risk of history repeating itself! I may assure Liesel that I have many a book on Theosophy in my book case that she wouldn't like to read. May be I studied them too much! Read my: "On the psychology of spiritual movements": http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html Michael From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:12:12 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: Psychic abberration Message-ID: <199609021419.KAA07501@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Why is it that more of the world's population has mental problems today? Could it be that we're more aware of the fact that there is such a thing as a mental problem? You can't tell me that Mayans didn't have mental problems if they were afraid, as they must've been, of being used as human sacrifice. A TV thing yesterday said they sacrificed children because they thought their cries and tears while being killed off would attract rain. Poor kids must've lived in terrible fear. You can't tell me that a child whose parent was burnt as a heretic by the inquisition, or whose mother had to go around New England with an A on her chest wasn't emotionally traumatized, with consequences. They just didn't know about it, since it was pre Siegmund Freud. So today, after Freuid & Jung & al, you have children being used as prostitutes, being mistreated at a very early age while doing dangerous manufacturing tasks, starving, watching their parents getting killed off by Tutsies & Hutu's. (and if you'll pardon me for being opinionated, I'd add to the list being told that you were born in sin.) During Apartheid in South Africa they didn't bother innoculating the black kids against polio, so the black kids got it, while the white kids didn't. I would say that all of these, and many more, today, would produce adults with problems, already have produced lots of irrationalities in adults. It's a world wide phenomenon, but thanks goodness there are at least some people today who're trying to make a dent in trying to ameliorate these things. Happy Labor Day Liesel ........................................................................... ... >Bee Brown wrote: >"I read a report from a European meeting of psychiatrists etc, that around >65% of the worlds population have mental disturbances in varying >degrees.Only a very small % of those are under treatment. The behaviour of >people in general seems to indicate that such may be the case. I wonder what >will be done about it, if anything!!" > >Sadly, I have to concur. Never have I been in contact with so many people >who have mental difficulties, including a few suicide attempts. Is it the >backlash of their flower-power background, overpopulation, TV-realism, >hectic life-rythm? Prozac is effecting wonders. > >Anyone ever read "The Aberree"? > >Michael > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:16:20 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: Whose Theosophy? Message-ID: <199609021423.KAA07646@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Michael, If you have read a lot of Theosophical books, the message you got from them sure isn't the same as I got. Liesel. ........................................................................... >Liesel wrote: >>'Scuse me, but with a statement like that, I'm wondering what kind of >>theosophy you've been studying, if any. > >OOOh, stepped on a sore toe there! Was it the truth after all? >About my background: after shaking hands with G.d.P. in 1938 I was sent >from the Lotus Circle as a naughty boy. Then again I shook hands with James >Long, but was given a similar treatment. And now I run the risk of history >repeating itself! > >I may assure Liesel that I have many a book on Theosophy in my book case >that she wouldn't like to read. May be I studied them too much! > >Read my: "On the psychology of spiritual movements": >http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html > >Michael > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Sep 96 12:16:20 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Psychogenesis - Where can I get it Message-ID: <960902161619_74024.3352_BHT45-1@CompuServe.COM> Murry Steintiford writes: Another factor is, who or what is doing the desiring? Psychogenesis has a very powerful explanatory or at least descriptive value, here. Your fragment of the universal consciousness is temporarily trapped in states such as "I really want a cigarette", while they last. On the other hand, the focal point of "your" consciousness can shift and widen immeasurably when you are resting in a beautiful natural environment and begin to feel at peace, and one with, all that is around you. Likewise with meditation. Keith I am not kidding when I say I have never heard of Psychogenesis except on theo-l and roots. I know I could go to the library or book store, but would someone share with me a little history and the major work of this movement. Please e-mail me privately, if you feel it is not a appropriate for the group. I know that Richard mentioned it also. I would really appreciate it. Thanks sincerely Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Sep 96 12:29:23 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Michael Message-ID: <960902162922_74024.3352_BHT45-2@CompuServe.COM> Michael: I can only agree with the first part: "The Mind is the Slayer of the Real". The second part appears to me a play of words, an aphorism. I wonder whether one has to steep to considering Eastern thought. Eldon: >. That is, we shift the seat of awareness >or volition from desires and mind, kama and lower manas, to something deeper >within. . We slay by >*withdrawing our attention*, by starving them of volitional energy, by having >our seat of awareness, our first point of action, as arising from deeper within. > I agree entirely. >The mind is slain when it understands *for us*, but stops pretending to be us, >and stops as well fooling us with the notion that we are separate, independent >individuals, poisoning us with its selfishness and "what's in it for me" >motivations. The slaying comes from the death of it as an entity, the death >of it as the center of volition, the withdrawal from it of being the prime >mover in our constitution. Our thought life is as rich as ever, it's just that >we are no longer identified with those thoughts. We have realized that we >are not what we think, and the mind is "silenced" since it no longer takes >center stage. > I agree again but cannot live with the word "slay". It is the wrong word for a fine truth. Michael Keith: We all seem to want to transform the word slay into "silenced", paralyze temporarily, withdraw from, shift attention away from, detach from, remove energy from etc. No one is suggesting of course that we permanently poison the mind or lobotomize ourself, of course. Slay sounds almost like a military term or to assasinate the "ruler" of counciousness and substitute a new "ruler" as the Voice of the SIlence or Higher motivations and virtues. Many have echoed ideas from Zen, that enlightenment is achieved after a radical overturning of consciousness where everything is seen first as spiriutal energy and secondarily as an illusory physical temporary manifestation of this energy. Slay may mean, slay the tyrannt part of our mind that always wants to take back its primary position as satisfier of my desire as opposed to the larger Good. THus one doesn't destroy the whole mental apparatus, even as lower mind, and desire, but killl the tyrant and place a new King (these ideas are no dobt present in Christianity, the King being of course the historical Jesus in exoteric Cristianity and the gnostic Jesus as inner Son in the esoteric or interior Kingdom of Heaven). Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Sep 96 13:00:26 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Murray S. Message-ID: <960902170026_74024.3352_BHT45-3@CompuServe.COM> Murray: So when we think of killing out desires, do we mean ALL of these? If so, we'd knock the motivation for the Bodhisattva vow out of the running, for one. There's clearly a vast spectrum of kinds of desire. Some are negative, dark small and destructive, and others are positive, light-filled, wide-ranging and nurturing in their effect. Keith: There is something very basic about desire as MOVEMENT. Someone pointed out that HPB toppled the idea of anthropomorphic personal type gods and substituted MOVEMENT itself as the primary manifestation of the NON-Movement of unmanifest Perfection. Karma is a action and reaction. An impersonal pendulum that swings first to the left and then to the right seeking always to rest in the center. Thus to kill our desire would mean no movement. There is a term "waveless" or motionless as avichi nirvana. Nirvana must be Vichi Nirnana - a wave blown our yet in perfect suspension (perhaps). As we become evolutionary surfers :) so to speak, we ride the wave of desires, thoughts, intutions, sensations. Addiction is be carried under the waves, wiping out, so to speak. Transcendence is still riding the waves on all seven level, but getting the balance from the higher(the big Kahuna, the Hawain shaman within, right Liesel :)) rather than the lower (trying to impress our inner Frankie and Annette on the beach blanket) I have just about worn the analogy out! Kawabunga! Murray: Another factor is, who or what is doing the desiring? Psychogenesis has a very powerful explanatory or at least descriptive value, here. Your fragment of the universal consciousness is temporarily trapped in states such as "I really want a cigarette", while they last. On the other hand, the focal point of "your" consciousness can shift and widen immeasurably when you are resting in a beautiful natural environment and begin to feel at peace, and one with, all that is around you. Likewise with meditation. This trapping is typical of addiction in all its forms, even to little things which are normally never called addiction, and are what I believe the word "attachment" is referring to, in yogic and other texts. Keith: I think that this a very, very crucial point for me. It seems that there is talk about being trapped even further in matter through addictions. Alcoholics and sex addicts particularly get trapped in the astral plane in life and after death and seek to posses others, because they are yoked (yoga) to the lower bodies and states. The jivamukti is yoked to the higher and thus release himself quickly to the heaven like realms (lokas) after death. And this becomes not a conscious will, but an unconscious response after long periods of addiction. Thus I think that these ideas are crucial . Recovery and growth on the path take long periods of reeducating the lower bodies that they are not the center and ruler of the whole seven ring circus, so to speak. Murray: Now, what about "killing"? Surely there are skilful means for ending our thralldom, and they must be underpinned by love taken in a wide sense, ie a deep understanding of the life-manifestations that make up a human being, coupled with a life-nurturing attitude and feeling. This is not the same thing as pandering to all the impulses that might arise, but is a healing, unifying, harmonising thing. If it seems to come from outside yourself, like grace, as it often does in the beginning, that's OK; it's just a matter of where the centre of your awareness or point of identification is for the time being. Keith: Many experience powerful transformational experiences as sudden freely given enlightenment and renewal, as a state of Grace-- a la Saul's Road to Damascus and Bill Wilson's spiritual experience. However there seemed to be long periods of wandering in the wilderness and visiting Babylon, so to speak. Murray: These means might need to include some very practical things such as taking part in an anger-management support group, or therapy to modify abusive behaviour patterns, because it seems that addictions and ingrained destructive patterns involve the most material aspects of our makeup. An example is the way that drugs alter brain cell receptor sites so that we physically crave the drug. Consciousness, or the I focus, can be imagined as being embedded in the complex of feelings, behaviours and attitudes that are this multi-level trap or funnel that we can't get out of for the time being. In theosophical terms, addiction structures manifest at physical, etheric, astral and mental levels. I'm generalising here, and it would be interesting to go into this in more depth. Keith: After the intial enlightenment and turning around there seems to be a lot of hard work in getting back these unitive states and making them practical in our everyday lives. Murray: There are other ways we can mobilise energy within ourselves, or invoke it from "above", in our search for emancipation. And, having made a case for love above, I have to say there ARE times when a strong "no" or current of applied energy, are just the right thing to dissipate a recalcitrant formation, in yourself or in your children. This isn't necessarily killing anything, or even doing violence, but rather rearrangement and transmutation, matching the amount of energy to the resistance. Have pity on the poor stuff you are made of! It could be quite a release for the elemental substance in your vehicles from pathological structures and states that you have subscribed to for years, if not lives, as well as for you yourself! So I'm not saying to love yourself in the usual meaning of that phrase, but rather something more all-encompassing and life-affirming. Keith: Exactly! The addictions are an attempt to love ourselves in a low selfish way. The karma generated from this can be so intense that one is forced to look at the process very seriously with a I to killing out the pathological self-destructive behavior that was one felt as nourishing (food and relationship addictions are other examples) To love oneself is to be in healthy relationship with others and Higher Power and the Group. Yet we are only human through it all and I alway fall short of the mark (perfection) but I always have an opportunith to pick myself up and try again (progress). We still carry around these lower bodies while we are in incarnation and I must deal with it on a daily basis. Namste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Sep 96 13:18:40 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Alan Message-ID: <960902171840_74024.3352_BHT245-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith Price writes: >I am remembering that Maya means not illusion, but "to measure, to cut, to >discriminate, to dualize as me and not-me. To measure the measurer, to have the >mirror look at itself. Zen seeks to achieve just such breakthroughs. And the >subatomic model seems to present the same form of the looker affecting the >looked at because they are not two things, but the snake looking at its tail. > >Namaste > >Keith Price >Keith Price Dear Keiths, . and you can "strangle" none of the above, surely? Alan Touche! To strangle the stragler would require contortions that would require many years of Hatha Yoga mudras or postures, not to mention pranayama or breath control :)) You know, Alan, it has taken me a long time to "get" your style of humor. Some have said it is an American vs English clash of styles, yet if I may risk the "flames" of personal comment. I would sugget that your ability to notice and "focus on with feeling" things like two Keiths, which was of course just being sloppy on my part, may evidence that you have a very developed iintroverted sensation function which is certainly a needed contribution to theosophy which is filled more with introverted intuitve and thinking types. I have a more conscious feeling function that intrudes more than is often wanted in the academic type settings. The introvered sensation type is more misunderstood than most types yet have a very important function in the overall psychic economy according to Jung. Namaste Keith Price, Keith Price, Keith Price........................................... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:20:44 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Whose Theosophy? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960902212044.006cb220@whanganui.ac.nz> At 05:55 AM 02/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Liesel wrote: >>'Scuse me, but with a statement like that, I'm wondering what kind of >>theosophy you've been studying, if any. > >OOOh, stepped on a sore toe there! Was it the truth after all? >About my background: after shaking hands with G.d.P. in 1938 I was sent >from the Lotus Circle as a naughty boy. Did you actually know GdeP? I have read most of his stuff and intend to read it all again as I can understand what he says and I have gained a lot of understanding from him. What was he like? Then again I shook hands with James Long, but was given a similar treatment. And now I run the risk of history repeating itself! > >I may assure Liesel that I have many a book on Theosophy in my book case >that she wouldn't like to read. May be I studied them too much! > >Read my: "On the psychology of spiritual movements": >http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html > >Michael > > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. BREAKFAST.COM halted...Cereal Port not Responding From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:20:47 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Psychic abberration Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960902212047.00698068@whanganui.ac.nz> At 10:25 AM 02/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Why is it that more of the world's population has mental problems today? >Could it be that we're more aware of the fact that there is such a thing as >a mental problem? You can't tell me that Mayans didn't have mental problems >if they were afraid, as they must've been, of being used as human sacrifice. >A TV thing yesterday said they sacrificed children because they thought >their cries and tears while being killed off would attract rain. Poor kids >must've lived in terrible fear. You can't tell me that a child whose parent >was burnt as a heretic by the inquisition, or whose mother had to go around >New England with an A on her chest wasn't emotionally traumatized, with >consequences. They just didn't know about it, since it was pre Siegmund Freud. > >So today, after Freuid & Jung & al, you have children being used as >prostitutes, being mistreated at a very early age while doing dangerous >manufacturing tasks, starving, watching their parents getting killed off by >Tutsies & Hutu's. (and if you'll pardon me for being opinionated, I'd add to >the list being told that you were born in sin.) During Apartheid in South >Africa they didn't bother innoculating the black kids against polio, so the >black kids got it, while the white kids didn't. I would say that all of >these, and many more, today, would produce adults with problems, already >have produced lots of irrationalities in adults. It's a world wide >phenomenon, but thanks goodness there are at least some people today who're >trying to make a dent in trying to ameliorate these things. > >Happy Labor Day > >Liesel > I wonder if humanity has not reached a more sensitive stage of evolution and so awareness of energies and frequencies from 'significant others' has a greater effect than it used to. I understand that we are at the manas stage and so we think more about all sorts of things and we now have the mental ability to worry ourselves to an early grave. I see people all over caught in 'catch 22' situations and lack the understanding to see it and the ability to extract themselves. My daughter and her husband do all the right things for their little sons and would by all accounts be considered good parents. I see the mental methods of punishment twisting the poor little boys into beings they are not but they will believe themselves to be as time goes by. When a little 4 year old is told often enough that he is always naughty then he will come to believe it unless he has some other influence to balance that. This sort of things seems to be quite normal methods of controlling children and we wonder why they grow up confused. Mum tells Dad when he gets home that little Johnny has been naughty and next day little Johnny is told not to be a tell-tale when he complains of little Jilly pulling his hair. In the past week a neighbouring town have had 3 suicides, one 15 and the other two 20 and over here we are fairly rural and life is not stressful in the accepted city style. I have also read that humanity is at the close of one cycle and the beginning of another and this causes a release of the dark side of things from the old cycle to be dealt with before the new one really kicks in. If we really hold with the idea of reincarnation then death does not seem so terrible because it is all part of the scheme and we will be back to have another go later. All things seem to be cyclic in a spirally way and some things need to be destroyed before new and hopefully better, things can take their place. Before I get depressed I will close. :-) Lots of 'em. Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. BREAKFAST.COM halted...Cereal Port not Responding From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:15:02 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-ID: In message <960902024435_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Alan: >> The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >>of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >>"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >>century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. > >It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - >as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more >like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual >bliss. > >-Ann E. Bermingham > I can see what you are getting at. I was trained (so to speak, and using your simile) to try to stand under the waterfall of light and bathe in the spiritual bliss while remaining fully aware that my feet were standing on the stones beneath - like, enjoy, but *don't* be swept away ... Any thoughts? Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:22:07 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Whose Theosophy? Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960902202627.25afe402@mail.eden.com> At 05:55 AM 9/2/96 -0400, Michael wrote: >Liesel wrote: >>'Scuse me, but with a statement like that, I'm wondering what kind of >>theosophy you've been studying, if any. > >OOOh, stepped on a sore toe there! Was it the truth after all? >About my background: after shaking hands with G.d.P. in 1938 I was sent >from the Lotus Circle as a naughty boy. Then again I shook hands with James >Long, but was given a similar treatment. And now I run the risk of history >repeating itself! > >I may assure Liesel that I have many a book on Theosophy in my book case >that she wouldn't like to read. May be I studied them too much! This issue comes up frequently. Theosophy has never been officially defined. So who can say whether my understanding of theosophy is better or worse than say "X"'s or even I am wrong and "X" is right. After all, much of what we all discuss and read about theosophy is still, at least for me, a working hypothesis -- until I can have first hand understanding. This is the *strength* of theosophy and why it is still alive after more than a century after HPB got the modern theosophical movement going. I too have books in my closet, which many may not like to read. It is not what we read but do we read it with a really open mind. If we read with a closed mind -- even if the mind is closed by strong adherence to certain *theosophical* ideas, it is still a closed mind and new understandings may not be possible. My 2 cents worth. MK Ramadoss PS: When organizations get in between us and theosophy as we understand it, there could always be problems. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:54:32 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Psychological Models Message-ID: <322B3B78.E1D@worldnet.att.net> > A theoretical model of why mythological and psychological symbol >systems (such as astrology) can be useful needs to be explicitly stated >so that any relevant research may be seen as clearly indicative one way >or another regarding the question of a symbol system=92s appropriate >usefulness in the understanding of human nature. Jung's synchronicity is just such a model, and works well. According to Jung's model, the reason "why" is because such systems give meaning to our lives. Scientifically, neither astrology nor any other "occult science" technique has ever been shown to have any statistical significance, and thus are all regarded by the scientific community as hocus pocus. My doctoral dissertation was on the Tarot and synchronicity, and I was able to demonstrate that the Tarot actually gives a higher rate of prediction than chance would allow--because of synchronicity or the meaning that we give to the card symbolism. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Sep 96 20:30:19 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Theory of Relationships Message-ID: <960903003019_72723.2375_FHP65-1@CompuServe.COM> Patrick: > To wit, as written by one student, the ancient system of >astrological symbolism needs to be lifted out of the hands of those >interested in predictional astrology, out of the hands of the thousands >who at this time spend much time casting horoscopes (seeking to >interpret their usually erroneous conclusions), and placed in the hands >of trained mathematical scientists and in the hands of those who have >given as much time to scientific training along astrological lines as is >now given to training a reputable physician, a chemist or a biologist. Astrology College? A PhD in Astrology? A Doctor of Astrological Science? It would interesting to see what quality of astrology and astrologers would be available if they were all required to get their sheepskin and some letters after their name. Might even drive up the price of an average astrology reading, but I bet there would still be the homegrown kitchen table astrologer, happy to do the job for half the price. Just like the guys that fix cars out of their home garages. I've recently heard that there is a movement afoot among certain astrologers to shift the emphasis from predictional to psychological. Personallly, I use both and find it very satisfactory. But if the astrological community is bent on recognition and validity, they may be throwing the old baby out with the new bathwater, as many have when they chased the approval of the public. What would one astrologer have to do to get the approval of the astronomer Carl Sagan? Perhaps this chasm between science and astrology chasm is so great, we can only imagine it in the future. As for erroneous conclusions, I've been disappointed by two astrologers. One who seemed weak with transits and the other who failed to do the job on time. This only drove me to become an astrologer myself, since I only had me to blame if things went awry. I am the guy/guyess that fixes their own astrological car. My observations and experiences has led me to the conclusions that our physical faces are the result of our biological genes, neatly picked to suit our present incarnation. But the real meat of the personality is written in the natal horoscope. That wonderful collection of symbols that describe the different energies in countless combinations, that paint the picture our Soul would like to live through for that particular time. I would add another requirement to the curriculum of Astrology U. Intuitive Knowledge 101, so one can see beyond the intellect and numbers, to view the chart from the level of the Soul. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:57:13 From: "Uri Macnev" Subject: Cayce Message-ID: <199609030458.AA17219@angel.elektra.ru> Hello! * Forwarded by Uri Macnev * From : Kay Ziatz Subj: Cayce Hello All! Can anyone explain me, who is that Cayce and why he become an object of such a discussion? What ARE is? I always thought that this shortcut means Arabi Republic of Egypt ;) I've read one book about Cayce who was a medium of lower sort (as I understood from the book) and lived in USA in beginning of XX century. A book was written by Thomas Sugrue. Do you mean him? Konstantin. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:57:42 From: "Uri Macnev" Subject: Question Message-ID: <199609030458.AA17220@angel.elektra.ru> Hello! * Forwarded by Uri Macnev * From : Kay Ziatz For: Stephen M. Dicke Subj: Question Hello. D> 1. philosophy of J. Krishnamurti I hardly understand him. D> 2. "pseudo"-science (alchemy of Bessant, Leadbeater & Hodson I'm investigating this question several years and will try to answer your questions. Though I haven't a final opinion, cause can't repeat observations myself ;) Two my mail-friends who have a good astral abilities didn't report me unless I've asked, althrough they supported some CWL statements (as 4-dimensi- onality, etc). Konstantin. You may reply me using the following address; address above is used only for mail-list. Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:31:27 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Psychegenesis (source books, etc.) Message-ID: <322C251B.92D@earthlink.net> The books included in "A Treatise on the Seven Rays" by A. Bailey along with "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" are the volumes which would have been called "Psychegenesis" if the T.S. at the time had stayed true to the original programme. Part of Bailey's work, given in these books, was to give forth, as much as was possible, the psychological key to the Secret Doctrine (one of the ten keys mentioned by H.P.B.). Love, Patrick -- *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:31:27 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Psychegenesis (source books, etc.) Message-ID: <322C251B.92D@earthlink.net> The books included in "A Treatise on the Seven Rays" by A. Bailey along with "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" are the volumes which would have been called "Psychegenesis" if the T.S. at the time had stayed true to the original programme. Part of Bailey's work, given in these books, was to give forth, as much as was possible, the psychological key to the Secret Doctrine (one of the ten keys mentioned by H.P.B.). Love, Patrick -- *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 03 Sep 96 08:56:10 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Roots Message-ID: <960903125610_72723.2375_FHP32-1@CompuServe.COM> Alan: >I can see what you are getting at. I was trained (so to speak, and >using your simile) to try to stand under the waterfall of light and >bathe in the spiritual bliss while remaining fully aware that my feet >were standing on the stones beneath - like, enjoy, but *don't* be swept >away ... >Any thoughts? Sounds good, but the picture of golden carp (Pisces) swimming among the rocks comes to my mind. They can dive to the stones and bob to the surface. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:13:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Blessings of Theosophy Message-ID: <199609031413.QAA22484@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Dear Liesel, You wrote: >If you have read a lot of Theosophical books, the message you got from them >sure isn't the same as I got. Well, I'm sure you read more in the traditional literature. I am sorry if I= =20 do not sound sound in the faith.=20 The message I got has developed =EFn my life from massage to: "I'll keep it= in=20 mind to see whether it ties in with other facts".=20 As I stated before in this group I thank Theosophy, and all who brought it,= =20 to form a basis for my outlook on life. BEE wrote: >Did you actually know GdeP? I have read most of his stuff and intend to= read >it all again as I can understand what he says and I have gained a lot of >understanding from him. What was he like?=20 I wish I had! We looked up to him in pre-war days when I was a boy. I=20 remember him coming to Amsterdam was an event of a high order. So my only=20 contact was limited to a handshake. After the war I dreamt of studying for a= =20 Professorate in Theosophy, but for financial reasons I had no chance. I do= =20 not regret it, though, I had other opportunities presented to me. Funny actually, that no one to my knowledge has written about what happened= =20 in the background in Point Loma/Pasadena. Michael From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 03 Sep 96 21:27:23 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Creative Loving - Surrender of WIll/Ego Message-ID: <960904012723_74024.3352_BHT216-1@CompuServe.COM> Alan: > The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. It's interesting that I never thought of using the word "surrender" that way - as one would wave a white flag and be led off in chains. I thought of it more like standing under a waterfall of light and being swept away in the spiritual bliss. -Ann E. Bermingham ------------------------------ Keith: I hate to revert to type so quickly and go where angels fear to tread, but what the heck? It would seem that surrender is an archetypal posture of carrying, containing supporting, offering up the grail. Kill is an archetypal posture of invading, cutting, dismemebering, raping, raviging, the spear piercing the flesh. After Freud and after feminisim, these areas have been trodden and pretty well blooded so that no one can say much without being accused of SEXISM. However, surrender to the infilling by a higer spiritual power would seem a more easy stance if one takes the feminine approach (notice I DIDN'T say, if I were a woman). Thus being a vehicle, a grail from the higher enery-light-sound is what the buddhi becomes for the ATMA. The normal aggresive positive selfhish ego, surrenders and bows low before the majesty and awsome divinity of the HIGHER SELF - the Voice of the Silence, the nonsexual Divinity within (neither male or female). I have often wondered if bowwing was a symbolic posture like animals take to the top dog, i. e. adopting a placating femine sexual posture to the LION KING. Thus the ego becomes bride to the divine BRIDEGROOM in an alchemical marriage where the divine androgynous magical child is born the CHRISTOS or asexual, trans-sexual (in the sense of beyond physical sexuality) to a divine linking that is similar to sex but occurs not through the body and genitals, but through the yoga or linking of shiva and shakti, budhi and atma -- and gives birth to the divine child of kundalini where consciousness is filled with divine fire or bliss much as in physical orgasm, but of course much more exalted and long- lasting. I think this is why many Eastern gurus look like happy babies, they are supppsedly (a maybe are) in somekind of orgy with the divine lover within. Thus the ego, must give up it place as little god of the physical needs , and become the goddess/lover of the higher divinity in the spiritual world. The Voice of the Silence is thus not only a spiritual sound that enters the spiritual ear, but a spiritual spear that enters the spiritual inner grail (notice, how I just got by without saying, you know what!) Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 03 Sep 96 21:38:26 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Teacher will appear when the student is ready Message-ID: <960904013826_74024.3352_BHT216-2@CompuServe.COM> Keith: > I am finding that my past life experience as the the sick child has somewhat obsessed >and "possessed" me in my everyday reality. I am trying to decide if I need to >get special help and feel I may be in what Cristina Grof calls a "spiritual >emergency" of sorts. It seems we may forget past lives for very, very good >reasons. Or perhaps this past life keeps coming up now because it needs to be dealt with. When I was in college I met a man who caused me great emotional turmoil everytime I saw him. I'd probably spoken three words to him as a fellow art student, yet he caused an avalanche of feelings in me. We did get to know each other as friends and he gave me copy of Be Here Now and introduced me to other spiritual ideas that were, at that time, foreign to my culture and family background. Later, I found out he was a student of mine in a past life, giving me a needed shove on the path in this life. So there was a lot of emotional pain and confusion that went on for at least two years, yet it worked out in the end. I agree, though, that knowing all of our past lives, or even several that don't pertain to this one, would be very distracting. -Ann E. Bermingham I am reading "The Astrology of Fate" and Liz Greene mentions that during a transit of Uranus she was introduced quite by accident to Isabel Hickey who took her briefly as a prize student and then dismissed her quite rudely and quickly. Liz was so made she studied astrology out of spite. Uranus often bring quick painful teachers into our lives that teach us long life changing lessons very quickly and disruptively, like a lightening flash. There are other stories like Nietsche and Wagener, Freud and Jung, Geore Sand and Chopin and so one that fit this love 'em and leave 'em type fueding teacher-student relationships. Amor Fati Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:49:12 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Creative Roots Message-ID: In message <960903125610_72723.2375_FHP32-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Sounds good, but the picture of golden carp (Pisces) swimming among the rocks >comes to my mind. They can dive to the stones and bob to the surface. > >-Ann E. Bermingham OK for water signs - I'm earth, so feet on stones. Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:31:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: The WWW within Message-ID: <199609031931.VAA16103@mail.euronet.nl> Alan wrote: I think I can agree with your viewpoint almost exactly, except for the "premise" of the "Brotherhood of man." It is not, I do not think, a premise, but a fact of existence, and it is not a "Brotherhood of man" but an inter-connectedness of all life (not only human) with all other life. What do *you* think about that? Interconnectedness is a fact of life, sure. At least, I experience it to be so. I used the word 'premise' from a scientific attitude of mind, not from my actual experience of the reality of wholeness. In other words, I was thinking about a psychological-scientific framework where it would be more appropriate to talk about working-hypotheses and evidence for these hypotheses. I will refer to this methodological issue from now on, unless I forget to do so :) Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:31:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: Psychism & Cayce Message-ID: <199609031931.VAA16111@mail.euronet.nl> Some short comments (it's such a vast topic) on what Bee wrote: Bee> Unfortunately most of us abstract from an original experience of something, in a sloppy way and end up using symbols that Korsybski calls noises because they have wandered out of the path of abstraction of the reality of the experience and into wishful thinking, emotional desires etc. So, what you're saying here is that most of us don't understand (the deeper significance and meaning of) our experiences of life? We misinterpret events? This is likely to some extent: we perceive objects, events, relations, etc. through a filter of conditioned thinking; conditioned by ages of misinformation about the human nature and all its layers of consciousness. Bee>Therefore Patanjali says that control of our desire nature becomes very necessary if we want a healthy mental body to pursue our quest and further development through the psychic realms without problems. Agreed. The question boils down to how to control our desire nature. "Patanjali's methodology may be summarized as follows: 1) Disentangle the psyche from the elemental, animal and animalized human desire influences by the superior mental powers; 2) Direct the forces by which the psychic-nature functions to the centers in which Mind contacts the personality in identity with 'the objective world', and thence into the Mind-level of the individualized Self or Master; 3) Through control and purification of the thinking-principle and the instrumentality of Mind, induces will to take charge of the psyche; 4) By conscious functioning in will, free and clear from all hindrances or modifications by the thinking-principle, liberate the seer or Master and enter the real world. This method of development does not permit any so-called "psychic experiences" during the process of entering the real world. We consider it one of the finest and most clear-cut methods for higher attainment ever given, and one which reflects our perception and understanding of the natural order process." Sounds good to me. I have given a similar method in my article 'the psychological key to man', based on transformation of thought (emotion/desire/etc) patterns. Maybe I will have to clarify the notion of 'spiritual will' and intent a bit more, as that is a key factor in processes as Patanjali describes, right? Basically, the spiritual growth process (or evolution process) is simple in itself, but there may be many self-made or conceived (or real) obstacles on the road. Anyway, I have a little study to do in order to be able to compare it with other sources. You're aware, of course, that Patanjali's sutras are very short and concise. They need some elaboration, I think, on the psychic obstacles that often pop up when one intends to practice methods such as Patanjali's. I think Vitvan has also written on that point. Bee> It would seem to me that some sort of unemotional and mentally satisfying symbolism may need to be invented to be able to speak of psychic experiences in a useful manner. That may come about when people get more experienced with these kind of things. Bee> The knowledge is there but we all seem reluctant to study it and to apply it. I'm not sure if I agree to the latter part of that statement, although I agree that the map of the psychic world/experience may not have been outlined very clear in Theosophical teachings. Yet Judge gives some helpful material in ~Letters that have helped me~. If I had a scanner I would put it on the Web. Anyone willing to scan this book? I would gladly correct scanned material if sent by E-mail to me. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:48:24 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: Jerry ... Would very much like to read your dissertation. I've been using the Tarot for close to 20 years now ... probably have done somewhere close to 2500 readings ... and it has long struck me that it could become an absolutely excellent diagnostic in psychotheraputics. It can be caused to function somewhat like an MRI - taking multiple "cross-sections" of the inner human, is capable of variable resolution (i.e., can focus in great depth on a current condition, or can jump scales and see deveelopment in terms of months, or years, or even a lifetime) - and so long as the conditions and environment within which readings take place are well designed (e.g., do not read first thing in the morning, as for the first couple hours of a person's day the psyche is "booting up", which produces a sort of white noise) ... the predictive abilities are quite stunning ... although to tell the truth, prediction is not always possible, as reality (IMO) exists as more of a probability matrix than a linear function ... sometimes the future can be predicted with great accuracy .. others times several distinct roads appear, with a choice/consequence prediction for each, and other times a wide range of possible futures seem equally likely .... but this is no more than common sense I suppose ... and has to do with the way life unfolds ... a person standing on top of a hill has 360 degrees of choices of descent and little can be predicted ... but if someone has been running downhill in a particular direction, picking up speed faster and faster, until there is considerable momentum, and at the bottom of the hill in the direction chosen there is a valley full of particular sorts of experiences, one can say with almost utter certainty that the person will enter that valley and experience those realms of experience (a preponderance of Aces, twos and threes, modified by particular trumps usually indicates a "top of the hill" situation, while a surplus of eights, nines, and tens generally means some situation of event approaches a virtually inevitable outcome). Anyway, I'm babbling. But I'm thrilled you did your dissertation on this ... as I wish the Tarot would arrive at a higher degree of credibility in modern culture. I've read for businessmen, politicians, entertainment people, even professors in psychology departments ... and maybe 50% of the time the people have to completely hide the fact that they are even doing such work (look what happened to Hillary (-:) -- which is too bad ..... Regards, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:27:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theory of Relationships Message-ID: <6y0INBAS7LLyEw9j@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960903003019_72723.2375_FHP65-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Astrology College? A PhD in Astrology? A Doctor of Astrological Science? Something like this already exists in the UK. > >It would interesting to see what quality of astrology and astrologers would be >available if they were all required to get their sheepskin and some letters >after their name. Might even drive up the price of an average astrology >reading, but I bet there would still be the homegrown kitchen table astrologer, >happy to do the job for half the price. Just like the guys that fix cars out of >their home garages. Really interested people do their own - like thee and mee! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:53:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >Anyway, I'm babbling. Well, we all need a good babble now and then ... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:50:45 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Psychism & Cayce Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960904055045.006b9808@whanganui.ac.nz> Martin writes > > So, what you're saying here is that most of us don't understand >(the deeper significance and meaning of) our experiences of life? >We misinterpret events? This is likely to some extent: we perceive objects, >events, relations, etc. through a filter of conditioned thinking; conditioned >by ages of misinformation about the human nature and all its layers of >consciousness. We understand ok on the level of what is referred to as the 1st abstraction or the unconscious level. Korzybski says in "Science and Sanity" Page 23: ' As our actual lives are lived on objective, un-speakable levels and not on verbal levels, it appears, as a problen of evaluation, that the objective level, including of course, our un-speakable feelings, 'emotions' etc is the most important, and that the verbal level is only auxilary, sometimes useful but at present often harmful, because of the disregard of the semantic relations.' We are inclined to disregard life as lived 'in-the-whole' and just look at the parts and then fragment our experiences and then wonder why they won't fit back into a whole let alone the parts. > > Bee>Therefore Patanjali says that control of our desire >nature becomes very necessary if we want a healthy mental body to pursue our >quest and further development through the psychic realms without problems. > > Agreed. The question boils down to how to control our desire nature. > > > >"Patanjali's methodology may be summarized as follows: > 1) Disentangle the psyche from the elemental, animal and animalized human >desire influences by the superior mental powers; >2) Direct the forces by which the psychic-nature functions to the centers in >which Mind contacts the personality in identity with 'the objective world', >and thence into the Mind-level of the individualized Self or Master; > 3) Through control and purification of the thinking-principle and the >instrumentality of Mind, induces will to take charge of the psyche; >4) By conscious functioning in will, free and clear from all hindrances or >modifications by the thinking-principle, liberate the seer or Master and >enter the real world. > This method of development does not permit any so-called "psychic >experiences" during the process of entering the real world. We consider it >one of the finest and most clear-cut methods for higher attainment ever >given, and one which reflects our perception and understanding of the >natural order process." > > Sounds good to me. I have given a similar method in my article >'the psychological key to man', based on transformation of thought >(emotion/desire/etc) >patterns. Maybe I will have to clarify the notion of 'spiritual will' and >intent a bit more, as that is a key factor in processes as Patanjali >describes, right? >Basically, the spiritual growth process (or evolution process) is simple in >itself, >but there may be many self-made or conceived (or real) obstacles on the road. >Anyway, I have a little study to do in order to be able to compare it with >other sources. >You're aware, of course, that Patanjali's sutras are very short and concise. Yes, Vitvan uses each short sutra as his heading and elaborates mightily on them, in fact from such short sutras I have 92 pages of A4 printed on them. Here is an interesting little bit from the elaboration of the 1st sutra; "There is a phase in each individual's ongoing which is referred to as the "probationary period on the path". According to Plato, it is a period of psychic groping. It is characterized by a stirring urge to know--a questing, seeking, serious inquiry, etc. During this period the individual seeker must sustain conscious effort before accumulated results become a force positive enough to sustain him. The entire 'law of integrity' of the individual is involved here; that is, no one, no higher evolved being, no master of wisdom, no teacher of truth can superimpose his awakened will or awakened force upon another--not even for that other one's own good. Because of this 'law' of free moral agency or integrity of individual being, a higher developed one must stand aside and wait until the probationer can sustain effort himself. It is a hard lesson to learn because propinquity, human affection, personal regard, etc., will elicit concern, solicitude, etc. So, notwithstanding value given to a 'law', one who can frequently carries another until the danger signals are observed, or until the times inevitably come when it is no longer possible to lend assistance. Often the disastrous consequences of such a course are revealed, for the one thus sustained may not only sink to the level which he occupied when first taken up, but he may fall below it because his own powers, his own energies, his own faculties may have been weakened by resting upon a superior strength. If it were possible for a higher developed one to superimpose his awakened force or will upon another and carry that one into realization of Self it would invalidate the entire law of free moral agency, of self-determination, of the sanctity and inviolability of individualization. It would not only negate the entire process of growth and development, but it would make automatons of many." >They need some elaboration, I think, on the psychic obstacles that often pop up >when one intends to practice methods such as Patanjali's. I think Vitvan has >also written on that point. snip >Bee> The knowledge is there but we all seem reluctant to study it and to apply it. > > I'm not sure if I agree to the latter part of that statement, >although I agree that the map of the psychic world/experience may not have been >outlined very clear in Theosophical teachings. Yet Judge gives some helpful >material in ~Letters that have helped me~. If I had a scanner I would put it >on the Web. Anyone willing to scan this book? I would gladly correct scanned >material if sent by E-mail to me. > > >Martin > > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:44:46 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: surrendering Message-ID: <199609041352.JAA12673@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Alan says: ` > like, enjoy, but *don't* be swept >away ... > >Any thoughts? That agrees with the way I was taught. The every day is your anchor, from which to enjoy currents of light, or currents of anything else that's beautiful & comes along. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:57:06 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: creative loving Message-ID: <199609041404.KAA13316@ultra1.dreamscape.com> re the repartee between Ann and Keith Just as an aside, surrendering is something females have been taught to do for hundreds of years. On one side, you conquer (maybe even Mother Nature), on the other side you surrender (Mother Nature seems to, but then has negative reactions). I wonder whatever happened to the idea of giving. Maybe that was lost after the days of Isis. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:44:54 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: whose theosophy Message-ID: <199609041352.JAA12692@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss writes: > It >is not what we read but do we read it with a really open mind. Dear Doss, I guess I'm an intellectual snob. What I objected to is reading it with a superficial mind, without getting the essence of what was written. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:25:15 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Question (Stephen M. Dicke) Message-ID: <9609041725.AA12900@toto.csustan.edu> Hi Stephen, I just returned from vacation. In reply to your post of Aug. 27th: I am interested in the comparative writings of theosophists and in theosophical history. What are your approaches to your interests? Jerry ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ >How do I put a question to those on the list? My questions are >this... >I am especially a fan of two areas in theosophical history: > 1. philosophy of J. Krishnamurti > 2. "pseudo"-science (alchemy of Bessant, Leadbeater & Hodson > and study of "paranormal" electromagnetic measurements to > be exact). >Are there any others with interests in either of these two? Are >there any lists that cater to these areas? Can anyone help me >here? > >Stephen M. Dicke >dickes@xnet.com (work: stephen.m.dicke@zenithe.com) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:29:41 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Historic Jesus Message-ID: <9609041729.AA11508@toto.csustan.edu> Hi Abrantes and Alan, We have been away for five days, but on returning, I have enjoyed reading the discussion between you two. I can't afford the time to get into anything detailed, but I can comment briefly and from the top of my head to the last ten exchanges: ABRANTES (From Aug. 28): >>BOOK III, chapter V (191,217) page 210 HPB states that Paul was >>the only apostle to receive gnosis from Jesus. But at chapter >>III (116,145) page 134 she says that Jesus taught magi to John, >>and at chapter IV (153,185) page 167 she says that Jesus teach >>his gnosis to SOME disciples (more than one disciple). >>So, what did HPB want to say? How many disciples receive Jesus >>gnosis from Jesus himself? >Jerry, you referred to two passages that I mentioned: "There was >but one apostle of Jesus worthy of that name, and that was >Paul."(II:241) and "with the exception, perhaps of John, it does >not seem that he (Jesus) had initiated any other apostle". (II: >147) The last one is not difficult to find because if my page >210=your page 241, and my page 134=your page 147. Then my page >167 probably is around your 180 and 198 pages (around 13 and 31 >pages of difference) at chapter IV. JHE The important issue here is that when HPB was speaking of Paul, she means an historical person who lived in the first century A.D., and claimed to have received a gnosis of the Christ. The historical Paul, HPB argues, was an initiate from Tarsus (where a mystery school was located). As an initiate, the word `Christos' was an important and powerful term from the Greek mysteries. HPB argues that Paul never knew of such a person as the Jesus described in the NT, as this legend was still evolving at the time that he wrote. When HPB writes of John the Apostle, she is writing about a legendary person who was initiated by a legendary Jesus. I hope this is clearer. ABRANTES >Yes, you are correct. I mistaked when mentioned that II:241 >there is the word . But indeed this seems clear to me, >because at chapter II (start60, end 110) page 86 HPB mentions >that Paul was initiated in greek mysteries. She also refers to >2Cor12:3, and cites Cyril of Jerusalem (Cathecheses xiv,26), >concluding that Paul was initiated by Jesus through visions >(even though the word never appear at this passages...) JHE Yes, HPB's argument is that Paul was initiated into the Greek Mysteries (at Tersus), and there he would have received gnosis of the Christos. But this has nothing to do with any Jesus--whether of the Bible nor of the Talmud, nor of the Todoth. Christos is a term from the Greek mysteries, and was not associated with the Biblical Jesus until a later time. ABRANTES >Jerry wrote: >>1. She considers the Biblical Jesus to be mythical, patterned >>after other mythical and legendary figures. [Abrantes writes:] >So HPB are saying that ALL four gospels are a forgery. This >person, biblical Jesus never existed. She recognices only the >existence of another Jesus, living one century before, as told >by Toldoth. Correct? JHE "Forgery"? Abrantes, it appears to me that you are trying to make a very black and white picture out of something that I believe HPB is trying to show to be a complex canvas of endless shades of gray. I would not call the Gospels forgeries, nor does HPB? Would you call the ILIAD a forgery? After all, we now know that Troy (Ilium) really existed and a battle took place around 1402 B.C., but that does not mean that the particulars in Homer's account are an accurate record of what happened or what anybody said. Some of the characters may have been complete fictionalizations to bring out important points in the story. Other characters may have real people who lived around that time, or 100 or so years earlier or later but never were connected with the war. But for the purpose of the story, they were incorporated. This kind of writing (or legend making) was a perfectly normal way to tell stories. Nobody thought of this kind of story telling as "lying" or making "forgeries." It was a way of creating entertainment for the purpose of passing on spiritual teachings, most of which are in metaphor. In this kind of story telling, certain formula story fragments are used over and over again because of their potent effect. For instance being born of a virgin. See stories of Sampson, the Buddha, Mithra and even the historically undeniable Alexander the Great, where the same element is used. Yes, HPB is saying that the Biblical Jesus did not exist, but was evolved for many stories. Yes she does insist that the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud and of the Toldoth stories was an historical person. But she does not go so far as to say that everything written about this person is true. We know now that a man we call "Robin Hood" really existed, but the legends about him have to be taken with a grain of salt. ABRANTES >Toldoth have a passage that says: >Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the >Passover and of the Sabbath. >When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had >possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that >no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the >prohibition over the carob-stalk[9], for it was a plant more >than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for >afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, "His body >shall not remain all night upon the tree." They buried him >outside the city. > >Observe the passage Passover>. > >This is exactly what we read in Matthew 27:45 and Matthew 27:62. >What is the most ancient text? Toldoth or gospel of Matthew? >What did ? JHE "What is the most ancient text"? According to the first century Rabbis of the Talmud, the story of the first century B.C.E. Jesus was taken from Temple records that were lost when the Romans destroyed the second temple in 70 C.E. So their claims for this story were not based upon stories heard here and there, but are based upon accounts of actual records. The original reason for writing the Talmud was to preserve as many of these old records as possible in order to continue the very culture that the Romans tried to destroy. Therefore the Jesus story was not included in the Talmud as some kind of revenge against Christians (who at that time were hardly distinguishable from themselves), but only to preserve the family records. Two Talmuds were written. One by the Jews who remained near Jerusalem, and the other was compiled by the Jews who fled to Babylonia. The same story was preserved in both versions, but Christian pressure forced its removal from the Jerusalem version. If the Jewish claim that the early Talmud was taken from actual records at the Temple is true, then the story of the 100 B.C.E. Jesus must be the oldest story. But if your question is, who have the most ancient copy of their respective stories--Then it is the Christians. But this is not the fault of the Jews. For almost one thousand years, the Christians routinely sacked and burned Jewish writings that were kept in libraries and synagogues. But the Jews continued to make new copies and managed to keep ahead of the destruction and Christian persecutions. The earliest physical fragment of the Toldoth story dates from the thirteenth century C.E., and the present day Talmud is taken from a fifteenth century Italian version, printed in Genoa. You see, it wasn't until the fifteenth century that the Christians finally agreed to stop burning Jewish writings (at least in Italy), and for the first time allowed to Jews to print and distribute the Talmud without harassment. As for the Talmud versus the Biblical account of Jesus' death, last I have heard, the Jewish account of the Talmudic Jesus being hung from a tree is considered more authentic to Jewish custom at the time. Crucifixions were done only by the Romans. Even then, a crucifixion was never performed on a cross. The Romans either used a pole or a wooden frame shaped like the Greek letter Tau. Therefore, once again, the Jewish story, whether authentic or not, is a more accurate account of how executions were performed. You asked what other "mythical and legendary figures" follow this pattern? Well, from off the top of my head: 1. The Buddha was betrayed by one of his disciples and was poisoned. 2. Deliah betrayed Sampson to the Philistines, where he died with his arms outstretched between two pillars. 3. Krishna charged the clergy with ambition and hypocrisy, and fell victim to their vengeance. ABRANTES >JHE wrote: >>Yes. I think HPB is saying that the historical Jesus of Syria >>was a Nazarene reformer. > >This is not the biblical Jesus, but the talmudic Jesus, correct? JHE Well, correct as far as the Talmudic Jesus is supposed to be more correct than the Biblical Jesus. >Abrantes: >>BUT at page 139 HPB describes the gnostic system of >>Basilides,the follower of doctrines of Matthew and Peter (???) >>(references to Clement of Alexandria, Stromata VII,XVII) and >>refers to him as teaching the correct doctrine. So, now, Peter >>(Basilides reflects his doctrines in accordance with Clement) >>and Jesus (the false Messiah of Codex) has the same doctrine. >>We have a problem here do you agree? > >Jerry replied: >>You will have to quote the passage so that I can find it, else >>I cannot comment on it specifically. > ABRANTES >The passage: "Basilides stated that he took ALL HIS DOCTRINES >from the apostle Matthew and PETER, through Glaucias, his >disciple" chapter III (start116,end145) page 139. Probably it >corresponds to your page II:152. Jerry mentions that the gospel >of Matthew used by Basilides was different from that used by >church. But this is not the point. The point here is that HPB >recognices that Basilides preached the correct doctrine and >follows the doctrines that learned from Peter. >But at BOOK III,chapter IV (153,185) page 163 HPB writes that >Peter, the apostle of circumcision, preached the doctrines >opposed to Paul, and describes 2Peter 2:18-31 as a example of >such discord. At chapter II(60,110) page 87 she states that >Peter saw Paul as magician, a man polluted with the gnosis, the >wisdom of greek mysteries. Again she opposes Paul and Peter. JHE I'm sorry, but I can't find the passage on or around page II:152 either. But regardless of the passage, I'm confused concerning the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a case that Basilides believed in the Biblical Jesus? OK, for the sake of argument, what if he did? How does that make the Biblical Jesus any more authentic? ABRANTES >Abrantes: >>Unveiled Isis BOOK III chapter III (116-145) page 119 HPB >>reproduce Toldoth that states that Peter was contemporary to >>Jesus. Some lines before, at same chapter HPB refers to Christ >>of Paul (who is the authorship???) and agrees that Peter lived >>under Nero reign. So Jesus never can be lived one century >>before. > >JHE replied: >>The Talmudic Peter lived one century before. The Biblical >>Peter lived under Nero's reign. > >In another mail I develop the argument that biblical Peter >founded the church in Rome at first century, AND NO RESPECTABLE >HISTORIAN REFUSE THIS FACT. So, biblical Peter lived at first >century. And HPB recognices, mentioning the Talmud that Jesus >and Peter was contemporary. So how can she neglect the historic >evidences about Peter? (the references are given in another >e-mail) JHE Abrantes, I'm afraid that I will have to side with Alan on this one. The historicity of Peter ever being in Rome is indeed very much in doubt. I even recall my old Theosophy teacher (who died 15 years ago) mentioning this on many occasions, so this is hardly a new piece of scholarship either. Rather, she would say, as does Alan, that traditions concerning Peter in Rome were developed by early church fathers for obvious political reasons. But I will leave this string of the discussion to you and Alan. Jerry ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:27:39 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: <960904132739_471638728@emout10.mail.aol.com> John, It was Hillary's own fault. If she had chosen to consult with someone who didn't stop all the clocks in the White House and nearly make the President miss the train... Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 15:17:54 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: <960904191754_72723.2375_FHP45-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >John, >It was Hillary's own fault. If she had chosen to consult with someone who >didn't stop all the clocks in the White House and nearly make the President >miss the train... Another one of those cryptic tantalizing messages that pop up from time to time on theos-l. Who IS this guy named John? John the Baptist? St. John? Johnny Carson? How did someone stop all the clocks in the White House? Were they that ugly? Or is it just time standing still on Capitol Hill? El Presidente missing his train? Thought it made it on time to Chicago for the convention. Tune in next week! Maybe we'll find out that Jesus really did exist and is working at a local bar and grill! -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 08:24:27 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Creative Loving Message-ID: <960904122426_72723.2375_FHP30-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >Thus the ego, must give up it place as little god of the physical needs , and >become the goddess/lover of the higher divinity in the spiritual world. Isis? >The Voice of the Silence is thus not only a spiritual sound that enters the >spiritual ear, but a spiritual spear that enters the spiritual inner grail >(notice, how I just got by without saying, you know what!) I think you pretty well got the subject covered. I've often wanted to express the same in a post but never put the words together. That is the way I see it from own experience which was only enchanced by words in books. Since we are existing in a world of duality, there is a constant coming together of the opposites, the friction from that and the eventual joining. But one has to think about this on a cosmic and symbolic level to understand that it its happening all the time, everywhere, not just in our little personal lives. As above, so below is a profound statement. Moving beyond that, without the duality there is no way to see the other side of things, no creation, no avenue for knowledge. Thanks, Keith, for your excellent post. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 18:58:08 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOS --The Two Paths Message-ID: <960904225807_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM> HPB writes in the second section of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE CALLED: "The Two Paths" -- The Dharma of the "Eye" is the embodiment of the external and the non-existing. The Dharma of the "Heart" is the embodiment of Bodhi (True, divine wisdom). the permanent and everlasting. ____________________________________________________________________________ Keith: Here we have the essense of dualism: the external or eye or physical world is maya (illlusory and temporary) while the inner heart sees the true divine everlasting world of spirit. However, when one has killed out desire, slayed the slayer and stopped up the outter senses and turned inward to listen to the VOICE of the Silence, the message seems to be that there is no dualism, that the inner and outter are ONE LIFE and have never been separate. It is only the thought producer that cuts them into as subject and object. There seems to be these necessary processes of cutting into two and re-synthesizing back onto an original primary Unity which now instills, infills and transforms the slayer-thought producer-lower manas, yet it is now infused with a new priority to cut the cutter, reunify the dualizer, or how about best of all: KNOW THE KNOWER. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 19:00:03 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOS - The seven portals Message-ID: <960904230003_74024.3352_BHT128-2@CompuServe.COM> Seven bodies, seven sheaths, seven globes, seven portals, seven keys, seven brides for seven brothers :) The seven manifestations of the one life can be seen alternately as active and passive in the involtuion of spirit into matter and the evoution of spirit out of matter. Actually the flow of energy up and down manifests in the cosmos as Fohat and in our bodies as prana and manifested more directly as kundalini in special enlightened states where the seven doors are opened by the seven keys allowing a direct flow of the spiritual energy through the chackras or subtle wheel/vortexes of the body. Each level can be either shiva or shakit, idi or pingala for the flow of spiritual energies. _____________________________________________________________ HPB writes in VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the third and final section called, "the seven portals" : Thou seest well, Lanoo. These portals lead the aspirant across the waters on "to the other shore". (7) Each Portal hath a golden key that openeth its gate; and these keys are: 1. DANA, the key of charity and love immortal. 2. SHILA, the key of Harmony in word and act, the key that counterbalances the cause and the effect, and leaves no further room for karmic action. 3. KSHANTI, patience sweet, that nought can ruffle. 4. VIRAGA, indifference to pleasure and to pain, illusion conquered, truth alone perceived. 5. VIRYA, the dauntless energy that fights [51] its way to the supernal TRUTH, out of the mire of lies terrestrial. 6. DHYANA, whose golden gate once opened leads the Narjol* {A Saint, an Adept.} toward the realm of Sat eternal and its ceaseless contemplation. 7. PRAJNA, the key to which makes of a man a God, creating him a Bodhisattva, son of the Dhyanis. Such to the Portals are the golden keys. Before thou canst approach the last, O weaver of thy freedom, thou hast to master these Paramitas of perfection - the virtues transcendental six and ten in number - along the weary PATH. For, O Disciple! before thou wert made fit to meet thy Teacher face to face, thy MASTER light to light, what wert thou told? Before thou canst approach the foremost gate thou has to learn to part thy body from thy mind, to dissipate the shadow, and to live in [52] the eternal. For this, thou hast to live and breathe in all, as all that thou perceivest breathes in thee; to feel thyself abiding in all things, all things in SELF. Thou shalt not let thy senses make a playground of thy mind. Thou shalt not separate thy being from BEING, and the rest, but merge the Ocean in the drop, the drop within the Ocean. So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love to men as though they were thy brother pupils, disciples of one Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother. Of teachers there are many; the MASTER-SOUL is one, (8) Alaya, the Universal Soul. Live in that MASTER as ITS ray in thee. Live in thy fellows as they live in IT. Before thou standest on the threshold of the Path; before thou crossest the foremost Gate, thou hast to merge the two into the One and sacrifice [53] the personal to SELF impersonal, and thus destroy the "path" between the two - Antaskarana. (9) Thou hast to be prepared to answer Dharma, the stern law, whose voice will ask thee at thy first, at thy initial step: "Hast thou complied with all the rules, O thou of lofty hopes? "Hast thou attuned thy heart and mind to the great mind and heart of all mankind? For as the sacred River's roaring voice whereby all Nature-sounds are echoed back, (10) so must the [54] heart of him 'who in the stream would enter' thrill in response to every sigh and thought of all that lives and breathes". Disciples may be likened to the strings of the soul-echoing Vina; mankind, unto its sounding- board; the hand that sweeps it, to the tuneful breath of the GREAT WORLD-SOUL. ____________________________________________________-- The virtues open the laya centers so that the aspirants consciousness can move from identification with the lower bodies as separate entities at war with each other for the demands of their several desires, to a unity with the ONE that contains them all and withe the WORLD SOUL with is the larger manifestation in the COSMIC MAN or Adam Kadmaon of the several worlds now unified from a new spiritual perspective on non-separateness, but of continual LIFE as WORLD PROCESS. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 19:00:31 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Virgo looks at Seven Keys for Seven Portals Message-ID: <960904230030_74024.3352_BHT128-3@CompuServe.COM> The doctrine of the seven layers or dimensions of manifest spirit in matter cannot be grasped directly by language, but the truth of which is grasped in Dharana, contemplation, meditation (according to HPB and many). I have used sexual imagery, so beloved of Scorpio aspects of personality who enjoy eroticizing spirituality and spiritualizing eroticism, but have wondered in humble Virgo with the vegetable world for imagery could come up with her own perspective. Here is this Virgo's first attempt: 7- Atma - the seed as perfection of the purpose of divine manifestation 6- bodhi - the tree with fruit 5- no real plant mind - as this is a human function 4 -kama manas - ( the first attempt at an animal type response of desire or love) the turning on the leaves toward the sun and the roots toward water 3- prana -(life body of sun energy as food) the sap in the stalk from the action of sunlight on chloryphyll 2 etheric -(the aura of the plant as electic type body) lingua shiria - the x-ray-like plan of the plant that repairs damage and guides the unfoldment of the leaves and flowering parts. !. physcial matter - (the mineral level) the earth, fecund and primal, materia prima, mater universalis where the roots of the Spirt Plant reach deep into the matter of earth in order to sustain the life that reaches to back to the SUN-One in oreder to manifest the seed (the linking of Virgo to Scorpio through Libra.) Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 19:01:41 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Copy of: VOS --The Two Paths Message-ID: <960904230141_74024.3352_BHT128-4@CompuServe.COM> > From: Keith Price, 74024,3352 > DATE: 9/4/96 5:24 PM > RE: Copy of: VOS --The Two Paths HPB writes in the second section of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE CALLED: "The Two Paths" -- The Dharma of the "Eye" is the embodiment of the external and the non-existing. The Dharma of the "Heart" is the embodiment of Bodhi (True, divine wisdom). the permanent and everlasting. ____________________________________________________________________________ Keith: Here we have the essense of dualism: the external or eye or physical world is maya (illlusory and temporary) while the inner heart sees the true divine everlasting world of spirit. However, when one has killed out desire, slayed the slayer and stopped up the outter senses and turned inward to listen to the VOICE of the Silence, the message seems to be that there is no dualism, that the inner and outter are ONE LIFE and have never been separate. It is only the thought producer that cuts them into as subject and object. There seems to be these necessary processes of cutting into two and re-synthesizing back onto an original primary Unity which now instills, infills and transforms the slayer-thought producer-lower manas, yet it is now infused with a new priority to cut the cutter, reunify the dualizer, or how about best of all: KNOW THE KNOWER. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:16:49 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Subject: Re: Voice of Silence - silence Message-ID: >Is anyone still reading VOS. I guess the back to school karma and Virgo >time of >the year has more to do with practical communication than theosopy. However, I >still pick it up and work and reread pasages etc. > >The first page has the interesting injuction: "The Mind is the Slayer of the >Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer." - HPB > >All that capitalization implies personification or divinity or both. The >thought producer is linked to the senses. The Disciple (or the divine part of >the student) must link with the Silent Speaker (more capitializations) in order >to hear the Voice of the Silence. > >"Kill thy desires ... strangle thy sins ... kill in thyself all memory of past >experiences." - HPB > >Isn't this a little violent? This self-abuse and flagellation of the products >of consciousness can be seen in poetic or allegorcial, yet it still seems a >little morbid to the modern mind. The modern view is to sit down with your >desires and sins and have a nice chat. They are only archetypes and like >members of a dysfuctional family can "recover" and enter into more harmonious >relationships. Is this ascetism necessary? I hate to harp on the theme of >misguided purity, but hating your sins? Hate seems to breed hate and >focusing on >sins would only make them have more power, in today's lingo. Transform the >base into gold maybe as in the alchemical mode. Couldn't these senses and sins >be harnassed for some higher purpose/ > >I think she probably has somthing more subtle in mind of course, but she does >insist on KILL, KILL, KILL past hope of resurrection all our little human >frailites etc. What an order! I can't go through with it! I am glad I have >seven lives to go. (Cheshire grin:) > >Namaste Dear Keith Will all its archaic and difficulties the VOS is a great book-teacher for ages to come as a roadmap of the Path. Regarding "The Mind is the Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer," I simply interpreted the work "kill" as "Nirodaha" from the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. He defines Yoga as Chitta Vritti Nirodaha, usually translated as 'restraining' (in VOS as 'kill') the mental modification. The reason I went to Patanjali is because earlier in the Voice HPB mentions the word Dharana or "concentration" (more or less) from the 8 limbs or steps of the Yoga system. I found Taimni (Science of Yoga) translation and commentaries very useful on this subject. Peace and Harmony to all, Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:57:17 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Creative Loving - Surrender of WIll/Ego Message-ID: <13LT7GAtViLyEwt9@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960904012723_74024.3352_BHT216-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes > >Alan: >> The spiritual way is not, definitely *not* (IMHE) any kind >>of *war* and language like "surrender" belongs to warfare, as does >>"kill" and "strangle" and all those dreadful expressions which the 19th >>century patriarchal cultures dumped on us. > >Keith: > >I hate to revert to type so quickly and go where angels fear to tread, but what >the heck? It would seem that surrender is an archetypal posture of carrying, >containing supporting, offering up the grail. Kill is an archetypal posture of >invading, cutting, dismemebering, raping, raviging, the spear piercing the >flesh. Tread at your own risk :-) It would also seem that many archetypal postures are also atavistic - it's time to move on (sigh yet again). Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:31:25 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: sacramento/san francisco Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960904193125.00698780@whanganui.ac.nz> I pass this on from a theosophist in Wellington. >From: Deirdre Parker >Subject: sacramento/san francisco >I may have to go to Sacramento (near San Francisco) soon (for work). Do you >know of any TS people or branches there?. > >Deirdre > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:05:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: whose theosophy Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Doss writes: > > > It > >is not what we read but do we read it with a really open mind. > > Dear Doss, > > I guess I'm an intellectual snob. What I objected to is reading it with a > superficial mind, without getting the essence of what was written. > > Liesel Liesel: Glad to see your msg. I completely agree with objecting to reading anything with a superficial mind. Essence and a full understanding cannot come with any superficial reading. ...Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:14:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: sacramento/san francisco (fwd) Message-ID: I am forwarding the following *directly* to TSA at Wheaton. If there is a Lodge in Sacramento or there are members of TS in Sacramento or its vicinity, please post a message to theos-l or send a message to Bee Brown. Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:34:10 -0400 > From: Bee Brown > Subject: Re: sacramento/san francisco I pass this on from a theosophist in Wellington. >From: Deirdre Parker >Subject: sacramento/san francisco > > >I may have to go to Sacramento (near San Francisco) soon (for work). Do you >know of any TS people or branches there?. > >Deirdre > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:00:39 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Subject: Re: sacramento/san francisco (fwd) Message-ID: From TSA list as of 7/10/95 Berkeley Study Center, David Hallsted (510) 548-1682 Fresno Study Center, Ruth Hull Kundert, (209) 896-7469 In San Francisco, Integral Study Center, Cathy Coleman, (707) 935-0906 Oakland Branch, Rune Goop, (510) 524-1474 Sacramento Branch, Robert Steele, (916) 988-2419 San Francisco Branch, Richard Power, (415) 661-5254 Peace Harmony to all, Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:19:17 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Subject: Re: sacramento/san francisco (fwd) Message-ID: and of cource I forgot mine in Los Angeles, CA Martin Leiderman work: (310) 442-4274; Home: (310) 556-7987 Peace & Harmony to all, Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 04 Sep 96 19:28:44 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Pilgram and The Pilgramage by Sellon Message-ID: <960904232844_74024.3352_BHT128-6@CompuServe.COM> I just received a free copy of "The Pilgrim and The Pilgramage" by Emily B. Sellon. I think she did a very good job of distilling and presenting the so-called core teachings in a way a newcomer to theosophy could understand. In my humble opinion, I think this is an excellent resource for the person who want to know more about theosphy, but is not ready to tackly the original works of HPB. In fact the Appendix A called "Some FUndamentals of Theohophy" is just that. It might be something to keep on hand in the theos-l library of as a FAQ. What do you think? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:28:28 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: <960904202457_277446005@emout13.mail.aol.com> Ann, I was having a joke with JRC. And it was very dangerous to have Eleanor Roosevelt near a clock. She visited London once, causing Big Ben to explode and shower the populace with clock innards and make the think the blitz was on again. Rumor has it she also caused several senators to turn to stone, but no one noticed any difference. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:29:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Pilgram and The Pilgramage by Sellon Message-ID: <960904202630_277447694@emout13.mail.aol.com> Well, it will certainly make the fundamentalists happy. :-) (giggle giggle giggle) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:49:28 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Cayce & psychism Message-ID: <199609050057.UAA21261@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Bee, you quote something that has fascinated me for a while, & I haven't known where to look it up. >As I understand it, much psychic >difficulty could stem from our lack of understanding of the symbols (words) >we use to describe our own experiences. Every thing is a personal experience >within each one of us and we use agreed upon symbols to express these >experiences to each other. Unfortunately most of us abstract from an >original experience of something, in a sloppy way and end up using symbols >that Korsybski calls noises because they have wandered out of the path of >abstraction of the reality of the experience and into wishful thinking, >emotional desires etc. I've often wondered how we communicate beyond words, and how words limit what we can communicate, while at the same time being our most often used communicator. We can use the arts. Actually, I wonder whether we can express more completely and accurately than in words. I'm thinking of dreams, which are a form of communicating. Try to put a dream into words. While you're describing 1 part the other part disappears from your grasp. An impression wells up from within, and it's very difficult to express exactly what you perceive. Your man says that we perceive something, & right away we see it through our own individual skewed lens. That's true too. It's a fascinating subject. Did you find it written up somewhere? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:49:35 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: the www within Message-ID: <199609050057.UAA21264@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I'd like to add something to >>My understanding of the "collective unconscious" is that of a Field >>of consciousness. I also think that it is a multiple layered Field in which >>each of us is integrated (unconscious to most of us). This is the natural basis >>for the premise of the Brotherhood of man. IMO we have a very strong physical connection as well. An Md can study in Europe, & find the same kinds of bodies in America, 12 eyes, 1 nose & etc. We have minerals in our bodies that are also found in other creations of this universe. Maybe each creation uses them differently, but the components are the same... the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, water & etc. We find all those in the human body, as well as elsewhere, & I think that too makes us "brothers" (including sisters & hermaphrodites). Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 02:03:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: <43XQ7JAdbiLyEwsG@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960904191754_72723.2375_FHP45-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Tune in next week! Maybe we'll find out that Jesus really did exist and is >working at a local bar and grill! Last I heard he was taking a stroll across Lake Michigan ..... John is probably John Crocker, who usually apears on the list as JRC. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:49:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Theosophy International (FYI) Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination." 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life." THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. To join in disussion about promoting "TI" objects, send an e-mail to listproc@vnet.net with no subject header and the message subscribe TI-L your name Do not use a "sig" file - you will get an extra "error" message! ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has 43 members in ten countries. Alan Bain IMPORTANT NOTE: Although TI members are active on the various theosophy mailing lists (theos-l, theos-buds, etc., and which are maintained by John Mead (himself a TI member), none of the theos mailing lists is owned or exclusively reserved for members of Theosophy International, Nor is TI a part of any other theosophical organisation. --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 05 Sep 96 20:43:15 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: A rose is a rose and to kill is to kill Message-ID: <960906004315_74024.3352_BHT267-2@CompuServe.COM> Keith : >HPB does insist on KILL, KILL, KILL past hope of resurrection all our little human >frailites etc. What an order! I can't go through with it! I am glad I have >seven lives to go. (Cheshire grin:) > >Namaste Dear Keith Will all its archaic and difficulties the VOS is a great book-teacher for ages to come as a roadmap of the Path. Regarding "The Mind is the Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer," I simply interpreted the work "kill" as "Nirodaha" from the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. He defines Yoga as Chitta Vritti Nirodaha, usually translated as 'restraining' (in VOS as 'kill') the mental modification. The reason I went to Patanjali is because earlier in the Voice HPB mentions the word Dharana or "concentration" (more or less) from the 8 limbs or steps of the Yoga system. I found Taimni (Science of Yoga) translation and commentaries very useful on this subject. Peace and Harmony to all, Martin _________________________________________________________________- Keith: I think many have chewed this over and decided she really didn't mean "kill" as in destroy past resurrection or reincarnation (here the reincarnation of a astral or pranic body may indeed be an appropriate metaphor). Yet read what she writes a little further on. HPB: Before thou standest on the threshold of the Path; before thou crossest the foremost Gate, thou hast to merge the two into the One and sacrifice [53] the personal to SELF impersonal, and thus destroy the "path" between the two - Antaskarana. (9) (AND IN THE GLOSSARY SHE CONTINUES): ANTASKARANA IS THE LOWER MANAS, THE pATH OF COMMUNICATION OR COMMUNION BETWEEN THE PERSONALITY AND THE HIGHER MANAS OR HUMAN SOUL. AT DEATH IT IS DESTROYED AS A PATH OR MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION , AND ITS REMAINS SURVIVE IN A FORM AS THE kAMA RUPA- THE "SHEEl"> Keith: I think we are getting into some interesting 19th century waters here and I am certainly not the expert on the historical context or the precise meaning of all of this. But I would ask one to consider (and I have heard variations from various theosphical speakers and commentators) that 1. man as a seven-fold being is the result of the unconscious impersonal involution of divinity into matter and this Divinity is now struggling in an individualized, personal and conscious way back into divinity 2. Unconscious Perfect Mind uses man as an alchemical vessel if he is willing to turn from selfhish involution to alturuistic and group orientied spiritual evolution 3. The path of communication or communion links the lower mind and higher soul through the Anataskarana or dualizing, intellectualizing, rationalizing mind (by definition Maya and Slayer of the Real) 4. This demon-like lower mind is the rainbow bridge (like Daath in the Cabala) whereby one can cross the Abyss and lift the Veil of Isis in a devine union, an alchemical marriage. 5. The fruits of which are identification and eternal union with the Beloved One after death, or frustrated limbo like existence as a shell or spook that seeks to seduce others (often said to be in the seance room of the spiritualistic paradigm of the time. One wonders in these shells are inhabiting the New Age Bookstores in the 90's after leaving the disco's in the 70's :))! I am looking at THE PATH by Reginal W. Machell painted for the Pasaden Lodge back in 1895! It is a more representational art work that fleshes out the abstract symbol of the theosophical society. The sun above pours out the energy to the Solar Logos whose angelic wings enclose the globe of evolution. The aspiriant crosses over a dead dragon of personality to greet first the Saviour as archetype of the Master and Son of the Higher Self and then Isis as Divine Wisdom as Virgin Mother and then the Logos itself. To get back to your original point Martin, I think if she said kill, she probably meant it whether we like it or not. We could open up the can about why did God put a serpent in the garden of Eden in the first place, but after 20 centuries, the talk is musty, but in essence it seems to be necessary to be exactly like it is and for us to struggle, suffer and kill it, though this doesn't seem warm, fuzzy, logical, ethical or in fact "nice" in anyway. But there you have it! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 05 Sep 96 20:48:20 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: VOS-The 7 Portals Message-ID: <960906004819_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >4. VIRAGA, indifference to pleasure and to pain, illusion >conquered, truth alone perceived. This seemed to me to relate to something you posted earlier, that one who is enlightened sees the world as manifestations of energy. If one were to view pleasure and pain as manifestations of energy, as simply different types of tests on the game board of life, neither to be sought nor avoided, then one would not identify with either. It says to me that by lifting one's consciousness up another notch, perhaps to the level of the soul, then one's reactions and behavior to the illusory opposites would be changed. One would truly see things as they are and thus, conquer the illusion of the physical world. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 05 Sep 96 21:27:57 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: More Creative Loving - Libra Message-ID: <960906012757_74024.3352_BHT267-3@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >Thus the ego, must give up it place as little god of the physical needs , and >become the goddess/lover of the higher divinity in the spiritual world. Isis? >The Voice of the Silence is thus not only a spiritual sound that enters the >spiritual ear, but a spiritual spear that enters the spiritual inner grail Since we are existing in a world of duality, there is a constant coming together of the opposites, the friction from that and the eventual joining. But one has to think about this on a cosmic and symbolic level to understand that it its happening all the time, everywhere, not just in our little personal lives. As above, so below is a profound statement. Moving beyond that, without the duality there is no way to see the other side of things, no creation, no avenue for knowledge. -Ann E. Bermingham Keith: It has been said that humanity is a being with a God size hole. It may be that the sexual imagery could be replaced with a more platonic kind of "love" or bakti type devotion after the transfer of the initial "divine seed" in the more intense act of union - enlightenment bliss. Yet I think that what separates the gnostic, theosophical and occult traditions is the desire to do it, know it, experience it for oneself and not just accept it on faith. HPB we assume heard the Voice of the Silence and was in relationship with the Masters. This linking will have to be more common or we will again have to accept the word of an elite. So many have seen the rise of the femine principle as representing a new vision of God. I would speculate that this could be evidenced by: 1. the assumption of the Virgin Mary in the 50" accoding to the Roman Church and pointed to so often by Jung 2. feminism as reestablishing the value of the woman as equal to men in society 3. the move to more woman managers, and in the army and police as evidence of the blending of feminie energies with aggression and control due to the rise of technology 4. the feminine principle becoming more acceptable in men as nuturing and caring, creative etc. 5. the fight for public acceptance of the eternal and omnipresent homosexual archetype (and it repression) I would like to speculate that the government welfare state has become some kind of giant Mother/Goddess. Social security, medicare, welfare and all of it has provided a giant breast to nurse an entire generation into dependency. What will happen when they have to eat the solid food of reality? There may be even a larger global desire for an Earth Mother with a halo of electical stars in her hair called the noosphere or maybe more properly the technosphere which we see the beginning of in the internet. We stand like the Atlantians, with the tools to enslave humanity or liberate it. Maybe the internet is providing the new Aquarian egalitarianism of "everybody has a home page" , a be your own little star kind of privilege but, the Leo underside still wants dramatic personal expression which is often seen in the horrors of terrorism for the most diabolic of personal power statements - the power to negate What was once almost unthinkable (at least it seemed in the 50's, is now commonplace) The human archetypes do not go gently into that good night. Perhaps "kill" is not too strong a word for these shadowy parts of our selves. Yet fate has just such ways. The dark goddes Moira (mindless destructive primal fate) cannot really be killed. I guess what must be killed is certain attitude. An attitude of skepticism, cycnism, cowardice, complacency, childishness and desire for social acceptability (these are the things I personally am fighting, others may have other obstruction to kill out before the Virtues can manifest unselfishly . I find that fate is pushing me into places I'd rather not go, but on some level have planned for myself to learn karmic lessons ( so unlike the logical fair lessons of say, arithmetic). I guess the hand of fate moves to push us into new relationship with the Divine. I am not sure that the ego can do it all, I am not so sure that the ego can kill itself just because it thinks it should one fine day. I am not so sure that the ego can do all this without the participation of Divine, which entails something like submission unto death. It isn't a cookbook kind of thing, but like love and death, deeply, painfully, blissfully mysterious, dangerous and the results very uncertain. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:38:14 +0200 From: "Pre-installed User" Subject: Re: Cayce & psychism Message-ID: <199609051936.VAA06501@mail.euronet.nl> Bee wrote: Here is an interesting little bit from the elaboration of the 1st sutra; "There is a phase in each individual's ongoing which is referred to as the "probationary period on the path". According to Plato, it is a period of psychic groping. It is characterized by a stirring urge to know--a questing, seeking, serious inquiry, etc. During this period the individual seeker must sustain conscious effort before accumulated results become a force positive enough to sustain him. Yes, this is also recognized in Theosophical literature. This search is an intrinsic part of the Path. When one sustains the effort and helps to further the cause of the Self one will get in touch with Light's regions as Vitvan calls it (noetic mind). Then one feels the Bliss (ananda) permeating all life - and more responsibilities are seen through a clearer perception. It's a gradual process though. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:48:29 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Cayce & psychism Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960906044829.0069ae24@whanganui.ac.nz> At 09:04 PM 04/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Bee, you quote something that has fascinated me for a while, & I haven't >known where to look it up. > >>As I understand it, much psychic >>difficulty could stem from our lack of understanding of the symbols (words) >>we use to describe our own experiences. Every thing is a personal experience >>within each one of us and we use agreed upon symbols to express these >>experiences to each other. Unfortunately most of us abstract from an >>original experience of something, in a sloppy way and end up using symbols >>that Korsybski calls noises because they have wandered out of the path of >>abstraction of the reality of the experience and into wishful thinking, >>emotional desires etc. > >I've often wondered how we communicate beyond words, and how words limit >what we can communicate, while at the same time being our most often used >communicator. >We can use the arts. Actually, I wonder whether we can express more >completely and accurately than in words. I'm thinking of dreams, which are a >form of communicating. Try to put a dream into words. While you're >describing 1 part the other part disappears from your grasp. An impression >wells up from within, and it's very difficult to express exactly what you >perceive. Your man says that we perceive something, & right away we see it >through our own individual skewed lens. That's true too. It's a fascinating >subject. Did you find it written up somewhere? > >Liesel > Yes, I am reading the book by Alfred Korzybski called Science and Sanity which he wrote in 1933. He seems to be the father of the Institute of General Semantics in Concord. I have had a quick glimpse at their web page. I feel that I have learned to look at the world in a different way since trying to understand what he and Vitvan are saying. It all seems so simple but to explain it is not. I definitely need more exposure to the system before I can get a real handle on it. I get stumped when it gets quite scientific in places and especially when Vitvan gets into embroyology in his Cosmology. As I read somewhere deep in the brain a feeling of understanding wafts by but as soon as I try to figure out what it was I seemed to understand, it all goes blank. Very frustrating. I just hope that what ever it was, it found a place to lodge for future use. It all points to an open-ended and relativistic way of functioning. I get the distinct impression that the words we use are more important than we think, to our overall wellbeing and peace of mind. I can feel some changes happening and they are for the better and I try to follow the ideas I have learned about leaving certain little words out of my vocabulary and that isn't easy and I find myself just about to use it and then I stand there with my mouth open and nothing comes out. Hilarious really. Hope you enjoy the disk I sent of some of Vitvan's writings. Have fun. > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:53:52 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychological Models Message-ID: <960906005351_302659187@emout17.mail.aol.com> Alan, Jesus sort of got into trouble again. He tried walking across Lake Michigan while the Democrats were holding their convention and now the Secret Service has him locked up as a terrorist. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:38:24 +0200 From: "Pre-installed User" Subject: Re: the WWW within Message-ID: <199609061113.NAA29335@mail.euronet.nl> Liesel wrote: >IMO we have a very strong physical connection as well. An Md can study in Europe, & find the same kinds of bodies in America, 12 eyes, 1 nose & etc. ^^^^ a new species? >We have minerals in our bodies that are also found in other creations of this universe. Maybe each creation uses them differently, but the components are the same... the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, water & etc. We find all those in the human body, as well as elsewhere, & I think that too makes us "brothers" (including sisters & hermaphrodites). Yes, you're right of course. The Field I have in mind is built of consciousness-matter (as matter is just a form of consciousness and vice versa in different degrees of vibration) and It includes the earth as well. Your example makes clear that everything is connected on the physical level. Ecology is well established as a science, I think, and many people understand that we cannot continue to poison this earth on a mass-scale. Your example can also serve as an analogy to what people share on other levels (emotionally, mentally, etc.) and make clear how much we influence each other, absorbing such influences from our environment and vice versa. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 06 Sep 96 23:33:15 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Stopping up holes - Paralyzing the lower bodies -Killing desire Message-ID: <960907033314_74024.3352_BHT247-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith (no actually HPB) :) >4. VIRAGA, indifference to pleasure and to pain, illusion >conquered, truth alone perceived. Ann: This seemed to me to relate to something you posted earlier, that one who is enlightened sees the world as manifestations of energy. If one were to view pleasure and pain as manifestations of energy, as simply different types of tests on the game board of life, neither to be sought nor avoided, then one would not identify with either. It says to me that by lifting one's consciousness up another notch, perhaps to the level of the soul, then one's reactions and behavior to the illusory opposites would be changed. One would truly see things as they are and thus, conquer the illusion of the physical world. -Ann E. Bermingham Keith: This is a very EASTERN -ASCETIC - MAHAYANA - ELITIE - MONASTIC (I think that enough), solution. The yogis, non-teaching holy men, set for hours beyond the desirs of the world. They do not even atively beg, but are given food, which they eat little. They sit in the hot a cold unmoved by either wearing only loinclothes. The householder or common people see them as a link to the divine world and hope for luck and favor from the Hindu gods by being in bakti-yoga with the ascetic who is in bakti-yoga to the inner God. I think I might have started to do this in another life, but I wasn't cut out for it so I incarnated in the West (a joke!) I think the temporary paralyzation of the lower bodies by a negative manifestation of the primary function of that body (such as rational thought, desire, logic) is what is being talked about for those of us in the West (including HPB). The middle -path of not to much this or that is probably the long term result of this type of desireless ness combined with active altruism (madyamika). You seem to be implying a kind of imitation Cristi or identification with the Master, in the sense that we look down on earth through the eyes of a Higher Self and see things from a Cosmic perspective. I think we get this in meditation, don't you? I guess a spiritual practice along these lines would be to walk in the steps of the Master, see with his eyes, hear with her ears, touch with his hands, think with her thoughts and desire and will with humanitatian benevolence. This may be off the subject, but do you Ann, or anyone know much about the Hipocratic oath. Isn't it heavily spiritual in evoking healing powers from a higher level for the unselfish healing of others? If so it may be quite like the Bodisattva vow of passing to the other shore of liberation, but helping others to cross. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:19:30 GMT From: Anna S Bjornsdottir & Einar Adalsteinsson Subject: Re: The mechanism of communicating Message-ID: <199609062219.WAA00183@rvik.ismennt.is> From Einar in Iceland. I have been enjoying the happy chat on this communication channel. There have been some intersting conversation on the psychological mechanism of communicating and the art of understanding, which to me is a very important subjects, also in relation to our Internet chat. From Liesel and Bee Brown we read: >>"...We can use the arts. Actually, I wonder whether we can express more >>completely and accurately than in words. I'm thinking of dreams, which are a >>form of communicating. Try to put a dream into words. While you're >>describing 1 part the other part disappears from your grasp. An impression >>wells up from within, and it's very difficult to express exactly what you >>perceive. Your man says that we perceive something, & right away we see it >>through our own individual skewed lens. That's true too. It's a fascinating >>subject. Did you find it written up somewhere?..." >> >>Liesel >> >"...As I read somewhere deep in the brain a feeling of understanding >wafts by but as soon as I try to figure out what it was I seemed to >understand, it all goes blank. Very frustrating. I just hope that what ever >it was, it found a place to lodge for future use. It all points to an >open-ended and relativistic way of functioning. I get the distinct >impression that the words we use are more important than we think, to our >overall wellbeing and peace of mind. I can feel some changes happening and >they are for the better and I try to follow the ideas I have learned about >leaving certain little words out of my vocabulary and that isn't easy and I >find myself just about to use it and then I stand there with my mouth open >and nothing comes out. Hilarious really..." >> >Bee Brown >Logic is a systematic method of coming to >the wrong conclusion with confidence. > I like your "slogan" Bee, because it homes on a very widespread problem of communicating a real understanding. Words are in my view very important tools in both formulatinging and communicating our thoughts and "impressions", but we must always think of them as tools apart from the real content of "the understood". Words and concept are nothing but "cheques" to experiences. We name or describe somthing, but it has no meaning for the receipient, unless he or she has a corresponding experience on his or her own account of lifes experiences. You can't describe the beuty of a sunset to a person that has been blind from birth. Words are important indeed, as tools, but we tend to give them an undue value most of the time. As tools, all words and concepts are of equal value. No word, concept or a set of concepts are more important than the next. The experience or the memory of experience may be very important - to the individual, but only to him. He may want to share this importance, but that is only possible if he can touch, or ewoke, similar importance within the other. This, to me, is the backbone of real communication. A communion - sharing - is the all important factor - not the sharing of words or concepts, but of experience, significance, insight, meaning, - and love! Another factor is due to the faculty of memory. The memory of an experience is not the experience itself. In cherishing our good memories, we exclude our good experiences. In cherishing a good concept we exclude the good experience of understanding that good concept once again - or even continuously, moment to moment. If we are to live in the present moment we must get rid of the attachment to our memories and conceptual thinking. They are all useful for their purposes, but the attachment to them make us the slaves of the past. Therefore, when you are enjoying your unformulated vague understanding, or the hazy immpressions of your dreams, don't rush to wrap them up in the opaque packing of concepts and words. It is the "airy" content, the unformulated insight or impression, that contains the real value of momentual experiencing, and by dwelling quietly with the prevailing state of conciousness, it can be maintained or prolnged further into the "present". This is one of the arts of meditating, to keep away the onrush of concepts, and dwell in the very potent, but utterly quiet, fullness of direct insight. And even if you can't collect it in your personal bucket of memory, it won't be lost. It's there for you when you tune to it again. In the bucket you can only carry a picture of it anyway! And once again, don't take my words for it. (They are of no value anyway.) Try it, try it, try it! Good luck and a "swell" life for you all. Einar. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 18:57:24 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to Keith, re antaskarana Message-ID: <199609070005.UAA24472@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >thou hast to merge the two into the One lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:36:24 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: PS Message-ID: <199609070044.UAA26260@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > & find the same kinds of bodies in America, **12 eyes,** 1 nose & etc. >We have minerals in our bodies that are also found in other creations of PS 'scuse, I must have been grokking a fly or some such animal and seen 12 eyes with my fingers on the key board. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:54:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: the www within Message-ID: <199609070102.VAA27098@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Martin says: Martin Agree, The relatedness of beings in the universe manifests at all levels. I just thought that the physical level would be the most easily understood. Lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:52:35 -0300 From: Subject: Peter&Jesus Message-ID: Hi Jerry Firstly I must to correct some data that I sent: In one of my last e-mail, I said: >Suposing that Linus received the bishopric of Rome in 69AD, HPB >concludes that he could not receive this bishopric from Peter, because >Eusebius and Irineaus mentions that this moment occurred around 64-68AD >during the Nero`s persecution under the fire of Rome at 67AD. >But here there is no contradiction. It`s perfectly possible that this >difference of only two years, can be explained by some error in dates given >by Eusebius or Iraenaeus. The fire of Rome occurred at 64AD. Writes Gibbon: I,XIV,212 (Tacitus -Annals XV:38-44-, Suetonium -Nero c.38-,Dion Cassius -1.lxii.c16-, Orosius-vii,7-) Commenting about the probability of 1 Peter 5:13 be a interpolation (as suggested by Alan) I said: >However it`s clear that this addition that you supposes is before century IV but the correct phrase would be: >However it`s clear that this addition that you supposes is AFTER century IV Commenting about the role of Jesus among nazarenes I mentioned that: >HPB opposses two heresies within the judaism: >the old nazarenes (Peter is included here) and the new heresy: >the christianity (Jesus is included here, HPB says that Jesus >was a nazaren reformer). >At BOOK III,chapter IV (153,185) page 163 HPB writes that >Peter, the apostle of circumcision, preached the doctrines >opposed to Paul, and describes 2Peter 2:18-31 as a example of >such discord. At chapter II(60,110) page 87 she states that >Peter saw Paul as magician, a man polluted with the gnosis, the >wisdom of greek mysteries. Again she opposes Paul and Peter. HPB says that basilides preached the correct doctrine, the same taught by Jesus and in greek mysteries. HPB seems to say that Basilides preaches the same doctrines of Peter because she mentions Basilides as a follower of apostle Matthew and Peter. At the same time she refers as Jesus and Peter in two opposite sides. HPB seems to prove that Peter did not follow the teachings of Jesus, and can not be considered the successor of Jesus, as told by ortodoxy, that believe that Jesus gave him the to construct his church MT 16:17-19. There is a contradiction here, do you agree? Jerry wrote: >Are you trying to make a case that Basilides believed in the Biblical >Jesus? OK, for the sake of argument, what if he did? How does that >make the Biblical Jesus any more authentic? My intention is discuss this question in a more broader view. When discussing about the historicity of Jesus, it is also my intention to understand the role of Jesus, Peter, nazarenes, and syrian heresies at early times. The subject sometimes functions like a background to such discussion. Basilides referred to Simon, aiding Jesus to bore the cross in his martiry. And Simeon is not mentioned in Toldoth, but in gospels. This is not enough to make biblical Jesus any more authentical, sure. But this description of Basilides did not oppposes to the historicity as told by gospels about crucifixion of Jesus. If Basilides was conscious about the story told by Toldoth, he would not mention such passage. http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers file ECF01.TXT IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES,BOOK I,chapter XXIV Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 06 Sep 96 23:59:44 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Active Listening to the VOS Message-ID: <960907035944_74024.3352_BHT247-2@CompuServe.COM> I don't know if anyone is getting anything out of our study of VOS?, but I am in a synchronistic way. Thanks Ann and Alan for hanging in in these strange fussily active nervously busy days of Virgoan September. The synchronism comes with I have come across again many books old and new which are going into detail that I didn't see before regarding the Ancient Wisdom as encoded in numerology and astrology from a soul basis. Number symbolism as expressed in astrological symbols echoes many of the idea HPB is using regarding the seven bodies and entering into an active relationship with the Voice of the SIlence. She states flatly that she is putting in her own words what she remebers from tablets that were largely astrological in symbolism (this Senzar thing). In reading Sellon's "The Pilgrim and the Pilgramage" which all TS members got free thanks ot a grant from her family , I have been reintroduced to the idea of the MONAD as name for the Higher Self or Master or Voice of the SIlence. This more abstract concept without human personality (which largely seems to be those old debil (sic) moon desires of food, sex, money, pleasure, self-agrandizement and power anyway) provides something to link with and listen to in a less verbal way. I mean if the Monad where going to break the silence, I doubt if it would speak in the Queen's English echoing bombastically through the Hall of Wisdom. I doubt the voice would be verbal or even rational-logical or even emotive. I think its vibrations would infill like a lightening flash our highest crown chackra like a lotus recieving the light of the sun and we would echo with the own rise in our kundalini like the sap of Amrita or immortality that makes one - one - with the One in a linking of identities in mystical union. I think most of us had similar experiences, in a limited way perhaps, and that is why we study theosophy to provide a rational framework for our experiences of the energy fields beyond our experience of everday life. We have discussed this before, but I think it would be good to meditate on it privately or share on theos-roots some experiences that one could class with "listening to the Voice of the Silence". These may have occured spontaneously or even regularly in mediation or in childhood experices etc, dreams, astral travel. There is method in all this I hope, I got the idea which was my original intention, to try to practice the VIrtues and renunciations, if only for a limited time and in a limited way. I know this may negate the whole thing by trying to manipulate the Divine in a ceremonial or superstitious way, but I think the long term motive of closer and closer listening would override this if sincere i am really going to try to eat more fruits and vegetables, exercise, maybe get a massage and spend a lot of time in comtemplation. I think the new age of idea of be good to yourself, includes being good to your Self. I mean if were a Monad, I guess I wouldn't want a tired stressed-out dirty body to unite with. Pure thoughts, emotions and a willingness to give respect and kindness could only help! :) Namaste Keith Price. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 07 Sep 96 00:14:07 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Voice Remembered Message-ID: <960907041406_74024.3352_BHT70-1@CompuServe.COM> I have share this before, but I remember one of the most powerful experiences of the Voice for me was when I was in High School. It was pretty dreary and everyone was really into the kama-manas of dating and all that. I remember being suddenly getting an intuitive insight regarding the graph x and y axis of the Cartesiam coordinate system. The origin that goes in positve and negative direction to infinity, yet the positve and negative infinites magically transform into one another somewhere out there kind of gave me a feeling that I was reading an ancient religious language with my inner eye. The graph was a rational mandala that I needed at that precise moment to let myself know that I would survive acne and the High School prom after all. I kept this a secret guiding image of an adolescent "gnosis" from a secret angel that I might receive more info again. When I was at another stressful point in early adulthood, I was synchronistically exposed to the chart as map of the Soul, as blueprint of our purpose. I have continued to overlay the above and below, off and on for many years. Again I receive a wink from something outside to something inside me that my life had value despite the set back of career. That I was more than a corporate title. I hear resonances in HPB's more poetic flying on the OM wings of the Hamsa bird to the higher union of the Voice of the Silence. I am still listening Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 07 Sep 96 02:15:45 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Voice in the Waves of Silence Message-ID: <960907061544_74024.3352_BHT119-1@CompuServe.COM> In meditation, I have often felt a heavy feeling like being pressed down by somekind of relaxing blissful wave like energy. I felt as if I was floating away in the seas of silence. I felt as if my body, emotions and thoughts were calmed, stilled, tranquilized. I moved as if through a tunnel in a sea of bliss, union and loving light. I felt carried away on waves of some larger ocean and was disidentified with my body, yet still aware of it. I felt a tingling energy dance around my limbs and trunk. It wasn't so much in my head as in my body, yet not my physical body, but possibly my astral or etheric body. At this time thoughts would come up, problems and desires concerning human relationships, but I choose to dive deeper into the waters. I didn't hear a voice, but felt more the touch of the silence, a reassuring holding and floating in a larger unity beyond the flux of the day. It was a very Neptunian connection of dissolving of ego boundaries to soak up the waves and let the flow through me. HPB uses a lot of wave and water symbolism in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. She writes: Thou shalt not separate thy being from BEING and the rest, but merge in the Ocean in the frop, the drop within the Ocean......."Hast thou attuned thy hear and mind to the great mind and heart of all mankind? For as the sacred River's roaring vice wherby all Nature-sound are echoed back , so must the heart of him 'who in the steam would enter.' thrill in response to every sigh and thought of all that lives and breathes." .......Thou hast to saturate thyself with pure Alaya, become as one wiht Natue's Soul-Thought. At one with it thou are invincible; in separation, thou becomest the playground of Samvriti, origin of all the world's delucions. ......Know that the stream of super-human knowlege the Deva-Wisdom thou hast won, must, from thyself the channel of Alaya, be pured forth int another bed.....Its purefesh waters must be ued to sweeter make the Ocean's bitte waves--the mighty sea of sorrow formed of the tears of men. A Pilgrim hath returned back from the other shore. ---------------------------------------------------- Keith: I have responded to the water symbolism but she point out the four-fold symbolism of earth, wind, fire and water. HPB: IN signs of praise both heaven and earth unite. ANd from the four-fold manifested Powers a chant of love ariseth, both from the flaming FIre and flowing Water and from sweet-smelling Earth and rushing WInd. Keith: The energies of our physical globe are present to our physical sense as the four elements. They have their astral and spiritual counterparts on the globes of emotion, thinking, intuition and kinesthesia which presents themselves in a different way to the inner senses of intuition. Like elemental spirts one can respond to the energy as fire, water, air or earth as waves of energy, vibration, connection and crystallization. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 22:58:52 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960908051108.1fcf5396@iprolink.co.nz> Replying to Keith >Murry Steintiford writes: >Another factor is, who or what is doing the desiring? Psychogenesis has a >very powerful explanatory or at least descriptive value, here. Your >fragment of the universal consciousness is temporarily trapped in states >such as "I really want a cigarette", while they last. On the other hand, >the focal point of "your" consciousness can shift and widen immeasurably >when you are resting in a beautiful natural environment and begin to feel >at peace, and one with, all that is around you. Likewise with meditation. > >Keith >I am not kidding when I say I have never heard of Psychogenesis except on >theo-l and roots. I know I could go to the library or book store, but >would someone share with me a little history and the major work of this >movement. Please e-mail me privately, if you feel it is not a appropriate >for the group. I know that Richard mentioned it also. I would really >appreciate it. Keith, I hadn't heard of psychogenesis either, until coming across Richard Ihle's ideas on it. However, I found his general presentation of it to be such a useful framework on which to hang various observations of my own and others' consciousness, that I have adopted the term in the meantime to refer to temporary "ego-formations" in time scales ranging from minutes to millenia. I have just done a search on the Internet for the single word "psychogenesis" using the AltaVista engine, and I came up with 42 different articles or books that contained the word somewhere. From a cursory examination of two of them, and the fact that it appeared in the title of only one of the 42, it didn't look as if psychogenesis has reached the status of a movement but looks more like just a word that has found a use in certain contexts. Most of the tiles looked pretty much in the psychological field, excepting for one about Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. That one looked deeply fascinating and so theosophical in its ideas of unity and brotherhood (sic), that I shall post some extracts from it in a later message. This first quote seems to be some kind of study guide. Noogenesis has to do, I imagine, with Teilhard de Chardin's concept of the noosphere which, from memory, is the multi-level realm of all life on our planet, seen as being on a journey of unfoldment towards a consciously interrelated and spiritually self-aware state he called the omega point. Anyway: Beginning of quote ------------------------------------------------- 1.Quotes from "The Activation of Energy" by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin [See] page 39 "to discover which of the various possible forms of collectivization open to him is the good form, in other words, the form that most directly prolongs the psychogenesis (or noogenesis) from which he emerged." End of quote ------------------------------------------------------- From http://www.iac.net/~dlature/united/ph2paper/pierretdc.html The other item I looked at from the search was "The Psychogenic Theory of History" by Lloyd deMause. I shall quote just a couple of pieces to give you the flavour: Beginning of quote ------------------------------------------------- In my psychogenic model of historical causation, then, women and children are not merely passive pawns in men's historical chess game, as other historical theories portray them. Women and children are, rather, at the cutting edge of historical change, forming through their interpersonal relations all meaningful innovations of personality _the new psychoclasses_ which then get translated into new political and economic systems. [Then, later] The central point of this psychogenic theory of history is ... that since psychic structure must always be passed from generation to generation through the narrow funnel of childhood, a group's childrearing practices are not just one item in a list of equally important cultural traits. They are the very conditions for the transmission and development of all other cultural elements, and they place specific limits upon what can be achieved in the other areas. End of quote ------------------------------------------------------- From http://cnet.unb.ca/corg/ca/e/pages/prevention_cruelty/theory.htm Now, who's game to apply the Voice of the Silence to the social and multi-generational scales? Keep having fun, Keith :-) Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:32:39 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <960907123238_303455901@emout07.mail.aol.com> Murray writes> >I hadn't heard of psychogenesis either, until coming across Richard >Ihle's ideas on it. Richard Ihle writes> Thanks to Murray for generous words. I was also very interested that his computer search for ~psychogenesis~ turned up some instances of its earlier use. As I mentioned some time back, the term seems like such a natural and obvious complement to HPB's ~Cosmogenesis~ and ~Anthropogenesis~ that it is highly unlikely that I would have been the first one to use it to describe the idea that "psyche" may not be an unchanging static "entity" but that it functions as a sort of "perpetually travelling mirror" which can at least to some degree reflect the animating, physical, desire-feeling, desire-mental, mental, Spirit-mental, and Spiritual (Atma-Buddhic) components of a human incarnation and thus become "egoically deluded" about its more fundamental and divine nature. The "Levels" may be seven (or five or whatever), but since each instance of temporary, partial "Self-forgetting" counts as an "ego-formation" in its own right, the psyche has countless potential "costumes"--a central feature of Gurdjieff's work, I believe. "I am my objective knowledge of the proper procedure for changing a tire," and "I am my dispassionate understanding of what HPB probably meant by Fohat" are both examples of the same Fifth-Level psyche even though they involve different-seeming ego-formations. Now, the idea that I in my youth once thought I could become famous for was not psychogenesis itself but rather the "Doctrine of the Seven-Year Cycles." That sufficient experience as one type of psyche encourages the "generation" of the next, higher type of psyche seems to be obvious. For example, the "Fourth Level vegetarian" ("I am my non-meat-eating idea which has been formed because of sympathy for the animals etc.") may naturally progress into a "Fifth-Level vegetarian" ("I am my non-meat-eating idea which has been formed by the desire-free logic, science, or personal experience that eating meat is unhealthy"). No, I thought I could make it big not with psychogenesis, which seems to be the standard notion underlying all systems of "Spiritual evolution," but rather, with the "psychological analog" of HPB's Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis--namely, that utilization of all potential psyches is not possible from the earliest age; there must first be a "psychomaturation" or "generating" according to a sequential, age-related pattern. The Breath becomes a stone; the stone, a plant; the plant an animal; the animal, a man; the man, an angel; the angel, God. Age 1-7, Animating Cycle; age 7-14, Physical Cycle; age 14-21, Desire-Feeling Cycle; age 21-28, Desire-Mental Cycle; age 28-35, Mental Cycle; age 35-42 Spirit-Mental Cycle; age 42-49, Spiritual Cycle. The basic idea is that there is a "hidden" psychological maturation proceeding pari passu the physical and that the full range of egoic delusions is not available to an individual until it is completed. For example, a sixteen-year-old may have the same dispassionate knowledge about the proper procedure for changing a tire; however, he or she could not ~be~ that knowledge in the same deluded identity sense as a thirty-year-old (i.e., he or she would not have psychomatured enough to make a psyche out of the dispassionate knowledge). Unfortunately, there are at least two problems with the septenary package. First, if it were really so cleanly demarked and tidy, everyone would be able to notice it. This is not the case, alas, because characteristics of the next cycle start appearing at the midpoint of the present one (this "midpoint insight" is though the courtesy of HPB and an exact analog of a similar feature in her Anthropogenesis). At age 3 1/2 (theoretically "Animating Cycle") or even earlier, for example, one can sometimes see the first signs of a child's "experimental use" use of a physical psyche--asserting himself or herself as a physically deluded identity--and thus perhaps suggesting an occasional modification in parenting from simple "energy re-channelling" to "natural authority of the big over the small." Secondly, modern dietary or other hormonal-affecting aberrations may have screwed up the significance of precise ages altogether. I have read that around age 14 used to be a quite common time for the onset of menses; now, one hears about even 8- and 9-year old girls getting their periods. I have no idea what is going on, but it certainly diminishes any predictive value of the Doctrine of Seven-Year Cycles based on strict age-related considerations. Still, I am convinced that the ~same sequence~ of development remains despite possible unreliability of the "age thresholds." I feel that nothing has contributed more to my success with young people than getting into the habit of looking at them from the psychogenetic perspective. I take nothing they say or do at face value; I am only interested in whether they can--or indeed are doing so at the moment--be deluded that they ~actually are~ what they are saying or doing. With adults, it is the same thing. Even a little understanding of the possible processes of psychogenesis enables one to make some pretty accurate guesses about who is indulging what psyche at what Level and to what Self-erasing extent. Well, psychogenesis and the Doctrine of the Seven-Year Cycles has never made me famous and undoubtedly never will make me famous. On the other hand, fame is usually not to a Spy's advantage, anyway. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:53:24 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Cayce & psychism Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960907205324.0069d310@whanganui.ac.nz> At 03:42 PM 05/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Bee wrote: > >Here is an interesting little bit from the elaboration of the 1st sutra; >"There is a phase in each individual's ongoing which is referred to as the >"probationary period on the path". According to Plato, it is a period of >psychic groping. It is characterized by a stirring urge to know--a >questing, >seeking, serious inquiry, etc. During this period the individual seeker >must >sustain conscious effort before accumulated results become a force positive >enough to sustain him. > > Yes, this is also recognized in Theosophical literature. >This search is an intrinsic part of the Path. When one sustains the effort >and helps to further >the cause of the Self one will get in touch with Light's regions as Vitvan >calls it (noetic mind). >Then one feels the Bliss (ananda) permeating all life - and more >responsibilities are seen >through a clearer perception. It's a gradual process though. > >Martin > >Most of what he says, that I understand, is in line with what theosophy has taught me but there are parts of his cosmology that I cannot quite understand but get a vague gist of what he means. It is like getting a quick glimpse behind Maya but it has not as yet a real effect in daily life except for a vague feeling that things ain't quite what they used to be. > > > > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:53:27 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: The mechanism of communicating Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960907205327.006a5464@whanganui.ac.nz> At 06:22 PM 06/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >>From Einar in Iceland. > >>From Liesel and Bee Brown we read: > >>>"...We can use the arts. Actually, I wonder whether we can express more >>>completely and accurately than in words. I'm thinking of dreams, which are a >>>form of communicating. Try to put a dream into words. While you're >>>describing 1 part the other part disappears from your grasp. An impression >>>wells up from within, and it's very difficult to express exactly what you >>>perceive. Your man says that we perceive something, & right away we see it >>>through our own individual skewed lens. That's true too. It's a fascinating >>>subject. Did you find it written up somewhere?..." >>> >>>Liesel >>> >>"...As I read somewhere deep in the brain a feeling of understanding >>wafts by but as soon as I try to figure out what it was I seemed to >>understand, it all goes blank. Very frustrating. I just hope that what ever >>it was, it found a place to lodge for future use. It all points to an >>open-ended and relativistic way of functioning. I get the distinct >>impression that the words we use are more important than we think, to our >>overall wellbeing and peace of mind. I can feel some changes happening and >>they are for the better and I try to follow the ideas I have learned about >>leaving certain little words out of my vocabulary and that isn't easy and I >>find myself just about to use it and then I stand there with my mouth open >>and nothing comes out. Hilarious really..." >>> >>Bee Brown > >>Logic is a systematic method of coming to >>the wrong conclusion with confidence. >> >I like your "slogan" Bee, because it homes on a very widespread problem of >communicating a real understanding. >Words are in my view very important tools in both formulatinging and >communicating our thoughts and "impressions", but we must always think of >them as tools apart from the real content of "the understood". Words and >concept are nothing but "cheques" to experiences. We name or describe >somthing, but it has no meaning for the receipient, unless he or she has a >corresponding experience on his or her own account of lifes experiences. There is also the concept of words that are just noises. If we do not take care with what we say, we can end up talking just for the sake of talking and say nothing real. Our politicians and the media are full of such talk. It sounds good but on further analysis, they actually said very little of value. Yet most people accept this state of affairs apart from grumbling to each other about it and then go about their lives as usual. Valueless talk can then become an accepted way of life and I wonder if life then becomes a little more valueless too. What I have been reading would suggest that we, as a culture, become the way we talk about ourselves and carelessness with our concepts and language can have a grave reflection in the way we respond to each other. You >can't describe the beuty of a sunset to a person that has been blind from birth. >Words are important indeed, as tools, but we tend to give them an undue >value most of the time. As tools, all words and concepts are of equal value. >No word, concept or a set of concepts are more important than the next. We tend to identify with the words we use and it has been interesting to see how we abstract from a basic experience to something that may loose all reference to the actual experience by the time it gets to abstraction level 3 or 4. If we have phychological hangups, we will not want to accept a basic experience that disturbs us so we abstract from it in a manner that we can accept but which is not real. The >experience or the memory of experience may be very important - to the >individual, but only to him. He may want to share this importance, but that >is only possible if he can touch, or ewoke, similar importance within the >other. This, to me, is the backbone of real communication. A communion - >sharing - is the all important factor - not the sharing of words or >concepts, but of experience, significance, insight, meaning, - and love! > >Another factor is due to the faculty of memory. The memory of an experience >is not the experience itself. In cherishing our good memories, we exclude >our good experiences. In cherishing a good concept we exclude the good >experience of understanding that good concept once again - or even >continuously, moment to moment. If we are to live in the present moment we >must get rid of the attachment to our memories and conceptual thinking. They >are all useful for their purposes, but the attachment to them make us the >slaves of the past. Attachment is the key word. Lack of self-awareness also causes us to be careless with our speech. I picked up a little book by a guy who was taught by Ouspensky and Guidjeff and it was interesting to remind myself about being attentive to the moment and what was happening in each moment. It is like a continuous meditation and can, with time, become a permanent way of living. > >Therefore, when you are enjoying your unformulated vague understanding, or >the hazy immpressions of your dreams, don't rush to wrap them up in the >opaque packing of concepts and words. It is the "airy" content, the >unformulated insight or impression, that contains the real value of >momentual experiencing, and by dwelling quietly with the prevailing state of >conciousness, it can be maintained or prolnged further into the "present". >This is one of the arts of meditating, to keep away the onrush of concepts, >and dwell in the very potent, but utterly quiet, fullness of direct insight. >And even if you can't collect it in your personal bucket of memory, it won't >be lost. It's there for you when you tune to it again. In the bucket you can >only carry a picture of it anyway! > >And once again, don't take my words for it. (They are of no value anyway.) >Try it, try it, try it! I would say 'do' it and keep 'doing' > >Good luck and a "swell" life for you all. > >Einar. > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:05:21 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Peter and Jesus Message-ID: <9609080205.AA16015@toto.csustan.edu> Hi Abrantes, Regarding the discussion you are having with Alan concerning the historicity of Peter, I mentioned in my last message that I would rather leave you two to work it out without me. Though the subject is interesting, I just can't spare the many hours that it would take me to dig out and review the relevant information. Alan, on the other hand, seems to have the material close at hand, and is better informed than I on this subject anyway. In response to your last post regarding Jesus: ABRANTES >HPB says that basilides preached the correct doctrine, the same >taught by Jesus and in greek mysteries. HPB seems to say that >Basilides preaches the same doctrines of Peter because she >mentions Basilides as a follower of apostle Matthew and Peter. >At the same time she refers as Jesus and Peter in two opposite >sides. HPB seems to prove that Peter did not follow the >teachings of Jesus, and can not be considered the successor of >Jesus, as told by ortodoxy, that believe that Jesus gave him the > to construct his church MT 16:17-19. There is a >contradiction here, do you agree? JHE No. HPB's idea of the "correct doctrine" is that the Christos is a philosophical and metaphysical abstraction and represents the Higher Self. Therefore the historicity or non- historicity of a Jesus who lived under Pilate is of no importance. Whether or not Basilides was a "follower" or Matthew and Peter does not attest to their historicity, unless it can be shown that Basilides actually met these people in the flesh. In those days there were "followers" of Zeus, Isis, Serapas, Mithra ect. A person or god does not have to have an historical reality to have "followers." Regarding HPB's arguments regarding Peter and Jesus, I will need some quotes, chapter number and approximate page to see what you are talking about here. HPB may be just doing Biblical criticism again, as she often does. I believe HPB's position is that Peter, though historical, never knew the Jesus under Pilate, because that Jesus never existed. ABRANTES >Jerry wrote: >>Are you trying to make a case that Basilides believed in the >>Biblical Jesus? OK, for the sake of argument, what if he did? >>How does that make the Biblical Jesus any more authentic? > >My intention is discuss this question in a more broader view. >When discussing about the historicity of Jesus, it is also my >intention to understand the role of Jesus, Peter, nazarenes, and >syrian heresies at early times. The subject >sometimes functions like a background to such discussion. JHE Fair enough. We do need to know as much as possible about background. What we need is source background material between 10 BCE and 30 CE to compare to the Gospels. We also need background material between 125 BCE and about 70 BCE to compare to the Talmudic material. But second century background, as interesting as it might be, is after the fact, and does not seem to help the case one way or the other. ABRANTES >Basilides referred to Simon, aiding Jesus to bore the cross in >his martiry. And Simeon is not mentioned in Toldoth, but in >gospels. This is not enough to make biblical Jesus any more >authentical, sure. But this description of Basilides did not >oppposes to the historicity as told by gospels about crucifixion >of Jesus. If Basilides was conscious about the story told by >Toldoth, he would not mention such passage. JHE Simon is discussed in the Talmud. He was a mystic of great fame and note. That Basilides knew of the Pilate/Jesus stories does not surprise me. These stories seem to have been more or less distributed among the different Christian (Gnostic) communities of the second century. I don't see the distribution of these stories as evidence for or against the historicity of a Jesus under Pilate. The feats of Heracles were also widely distributed and recounted, but that does not give historicity to Heracles either. Why would you expect an Alexandrian Greek Gnostic like Basilides to know anything of the Toldoth story? If he were a Jewish Gnostic who hung around the Rabbis this might make sense. But he was not. Even if he did know of the Toldoth story, why would he have cared about it one way or the other? ABRANTES >IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES,BOOK I,chapter XXIV >man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the CROSS in his stead; so >that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be >thought to be Jesus, was CRUCIFIED> JHE Yes, a very popular Gnostic story to characterize Jesus as a magician figure. But I don't believe that this was taken to be any more historical to the educated than the story of the battle between Perseus and the Medusa was taken as history by the educated Greeks. Jerry From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 06:20:01 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Eden & serpent Message-ID: <199609081127.HAA28953@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >We could open up the can about why >>did God put a serpent in the garden of Eden in the first place, We could open up the can about whether it was god who put the serpent into the Garden of Eden, and also whether it was god who invented the Garden of Eden in the first place. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:47:12 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Eden & serpent Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > >We could open up the can about why > >>did God put a serpent in the garden of Eden in the first place, > > We could open up the can about whether it was god who put the serpent into > the Garden of Eden, and also whether it was god who invented the Garden of > Eden in the first place. > Yes! In fact Douglas Adams (I think) once said something like the sort of person who puts a single apple tree in the middle of the garden, and then tells folks "do *not* eat from that tree" is the same sort of mentality that puts bricks under hats on the sidewalk - virtually begging people to kick them ... and stub their toes - you can't win with such a fellow ... if he didn't gethca one way, he'd getcha another. (-:), -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:13:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Some humor Message-ID: <960908121333_280118231@emout08.mail.aol.com> --PART.BOUNDARY.0.9887.emout08.mail.aol.com.842199213 Content-ID: <0_9887_842199213@emout08.mail.aol.com.36784> Content-type: text/plain As our Fundamentalist Xtian friends have discovered long ago that our true calling was to be agents of the Antichrist, I think it only appropriate that we get the numbers right. Chuck the Heretic --PART.BOUNDARY.0.9887.emout08.mail.aol.com.842199213 Content-ID: <0_9887_842199213@emout08.mail.aol.com.36785> Content-type: text/plain; name="BEAST.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, we all know that 666 is the Number of the Beast. =0D But did you know that: =0D $665.95 - Retail price of the Beast $699.25 - Price of the Beast plus 5% sales tax $769.95 - Price of the Beast with all accessories and replacement soul $656.66 - Walmart price of the Beast 6, uh... what was that number again? - Number of the Blonde Beast 00666 - Zip code of the Beast 1-900-666-0666 - Live Beasts! One-on-one pacts! Call Now! Only $6.66/minute. Over 18 only please. Route 666 - Highway of the Beast 666 F - Oven temperature for roast Beast 666k - Retirement plan of the Beast 6.66 % - 5 year CD interest rate at First Beast National Bank, $666 minimum deposit. i66686 - CPU of the Beast 666i - BMW of the Beast DSM-666 - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Beast 668 - Next-door neighbor of the Beast --PART.BOUNDARY.0.9887.emout08.mail.aol.com.842199213-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:55:37 +0100 From: Alan Subject: to kill is to kill but may not be wise Message-ID: In message <960906004315_74024.3352_BHT267-2@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >We could open up the can about why >did God put a serpent in the garden of Eden in the first place, but after 20 >centuries, the talk is musty, but in essence it seems to be necessary to be >exactly like it is and for us to struggle, suffer and kill it, though this >doesn't seem warm, fuzzy, logical, ethical or in fact "nice" in anyway. But >there you have it! Hrrrrmm! Isn't the serpent a symbol of Wisdom ... suggest looking at this story from that angle! Don't wanna kill wisdom. Oh no. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:57:42 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Illusion Message-ID: In message <960906004819_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >It says to me that by lifting one's consciousness up another notch, perhaps to >the level of the soul, then one's reactions and behavior to the illusory >opposites would be changed. One would truly see things as they are and thus, >conquer the illusion of the physical world. (Thinks ...) "The physical world is real enough. The illusion is in our heads." Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:51:37 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Active Listening to the VOS Message-ID: In message <960907035944_74024.3352_BHT247-2@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I mean if were a >Monad, I guess I wouldn't want a tired stressed-out dirty body to unite with. We monads never do ... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 20:50:04 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Unity language from Teilhard de Chardin Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960909030220.1ef7ca30@iprolink.co.nz> In my own piece on theos-roots headed "Psychogenesis and the VOS", I said >I have just done a search on the Internet for the single word >"psychogenesis" using the AltaVista engine, and I came up with 42 different >articles or books that contained the word somewhere. .... Most of the >titles looked pretty much in the psychological field, excepting for one >about Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. That one looked deeply fascinating and so >theosophical in its ideas of unity and brotherhood (sic), that I shall post >some extracts from it in a later message. Well, this is the later message. As I said, this appears to be a study guide, but what grips me is the intuition of unity and connectedness, coming as it does from a Catholic scientist/priest/mystic. Beginning of quote ------------------------------------------------------- 1.Quotes from "The Activation of Energy" by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin At the root of the major troubles in which nations are today involved, I believe that I can distinguish the signs of a change of age in mankind. It took hundreds of centuries for man simply to people the earth and cover it with a first network: and further thousands of years to build up, as chance circumstances allowed, solid nuclei of civilizations within this initially fluctuating envelope, radiating from independent and antagonistic centres. Today, these elements have multiplied and grown; they have packed themselves closer together and forced themselves against one another -to the point where an over-all unity, of no matter what nature, has become economically and psychologically inevitable. Mankind, in coming of age, has begun to be subject to the necessity and to feel the urgency of forming one single body coextensive with itself. There we have the underlying cause of our distress. ...... After identifying this cause of great unrest and psychological upheaval, Pierre proposes: The more one considers this infinitely urgent problem of finding an over-all plan for building up the earth, the clearer it becomes that if we are to avoid the road of brute material force, there is no way out ahead except the road of comradeship and brotherhood - and that is as true of nations as it is of individuals: not jealous hostility, but friendly rivalry: not personal feeling, but the team spirit. ...... Bearing this in mind, the ultimate form to be assumed by mankind should not be conceived on the lines of a stem that is swollen with the sap of all the stems it killed as it grew. It will be born (for born it cannot but be) in the form of some organism in which, obeying one of the universe's most unmistakable laws, every blade and every fascicle, every individual and every nation, will find completion through union with all the others. No longer a succession of eliminations, but a confluence of energies - 'synergy'. Such, if we have ears to hear, is the message of biology. ...... From all this we can draw only one conclusion, that the quantity of activity and consciousness contained in mankind, taken as a whole, is greater than the mere sum of individual activity and consciousness. Progress in complexity is making itself felt in a deepening of centricity. It is not simply a sum, but synthesis. ....... Until man, we may say that nature was working to construct 'the unit or grain of thought'. It would now seem undeniable that, obeying the laws of some gigantic hyperchemistry, we are now being launched towards 'edifices made up of grains of thought', towards 'a thought made up of thoughts' - traveling ever deeper into the abyss of the infinitely complex. P38 Page 39 "to discover which of the various possible forms of collectivization open to him is the good form, in other words, the form that most directly prolongs the psychogenesis (or noogenesis) from which he emerged." End of quote ------------------------------------------------------------- From http://www.iac.net/~dlature/united/ph2paper/pierretdc.html Notice the "nuclei", "unity", "comradeship", "brotherhood", "synergy", "a deepening of centricity" and finally the topical "psychogenesis". I think it is good to see these basic insights put together in different language now and then - if only because it helps us to appreciate the more familiar sources and keeps our minds from the dreaded theosophossilization. :-) Murray Stentiford Member TI and of the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 08 Sep 96 08:39:46 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Killing Desire Message-ID: <960908123946_72723.2375_FHP32-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >You seem to be implying a kind of imitation Christi or identification with the >Master, in the sense that we look down on earth through the eyes of a Higher >Self and see things from a Cosmic perspective. I think we get this in >meditation, don't you? I meant no ID with a Master or anyone else. Just from the level of the Higher Self, as you say. In meditation, yes, but it can also be done by remembering to lift our vision in our everyday activities and have it influence our relationships for the better. >I guess a spiritual practice along these lines would be to walk in the steps of >the Master, see with his eyes, hear with her ears, touch with his hands, think >with her thoughts and desire and will with humanitarian benevolence. I have a problem with identifying with the Masters. I personally believe that They want us to "hoe our own row." Why bother with an intermediary when you could have intimate contact with your very own higher self/soul? My methodology is to be the hands, eyes and ears of the Soul, manifesting itself on the earth through my personality. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 08 Sep 96 11:51:51 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Acknowledging Our Link to the Monad-Self-Silence Message-ID: <960908155150_74024.3352_BHT86-1@CompuServe.COM> I have heard that the ancient wisdom is really a study of consciousness, as opposed to science as a study of the physica (outter) l world. By meditation, the Ancient Masters turned consciousness on itself to retrace its divine origins. The tradition was largely oral in ancient times as few knew how to write. The teaching was direct from teacher to pupil. If the tradition was written, it took the form of symbols such as in astrology, numerology, hieroglyphs, and artistic representation. Senzar, I would suggest, is probably HPB's term for number and symbol systems in general and not really a specific "language", certainly not a spoken one anyway. Sanscrit , I believe has a lot of these "spiritual" qualities as does Hebrew in the tradition of the Cabala. Thus, in a very introverted way, by detaching from the measuring, rational, senses, the ancients created a type of system of divine manifestaion based on the results of examing their own consciousnesses. Number precedes form and name abd thus we got the Ideal World of platonic forms or archetypes which can be glimpsed best not as physical things but in number and logical relations to our rational mind. The emptiness manifested the One (Monad). This implied the One and not-One or the Duad. The triad resolved the conflict, yet implied there were other combinations in manifestation and thus four is the symbol of conflct and matter. FIve is the symbol of mind, manas, maya and man. Six provides a resolution of material receptivityand Seven rises above as devine container of the whole system. As above, so below implied that these truths could be projected outward. Thus the planets and constellations recieved the projections of the inner truth of introverted consciousness and provided a rational for the link of the divine will from inside to the outside as opposed to as often thought that the planets "cause" things or are gods or active beings. The whole system is rather a participation mystique, as so many have said where there is no inner or outter but only a grand unity participating in and through man, but which man submits to rather than be in control of. Sience used the logic of this introverted process and learned to look out first to gain verification and repeated instances of a coorelation between what happens again and again in cyles and my sense data recorded in some form so as to control nature. The monand becomes the pristine, untouchable spiritual force which radiates the whole number system and manifestation without being effected by it (this attempt at control had given science the black eye of "black magic" to some who would only like to co-exist with the whole system rather than try to control it), The sun is a type of lesser monad for our solar system radiating energy that creates life and gravity and thus allows the sparks from its flame to exist as planets in orbs of relationship. It also radiates all seven of the divine ray energies of will, compasion, wisdom, harmony, rational mind, love and physical activivity. Thus the earth relates not only through gravity but in love, wisdom and mental ways too according to this model. The globe of the earth is seven globes that interpenetrate each other vivified by the monad of the sun which we have in lesser form in our own seven-level consciousness. HPB seems to suggest in Voice of the Silence that by using the keys appropriate to each level, we are able to travel back to the divine unity as identify ourselves as the Monad and never separtate from it except in our attention throught he lower bodies. Macrocosm - MONDAND - Microcosm is a trinity in unity which we feel at once as conflict in separateness and bliss in unity. Time and space are like a balloon a single expression full of the hot air of maya. I think Ken WIlber has said it many time that split in science and higher wisdom is a problem of level. The lower did not manifest the higher nor could it recognize it if it did. Thus the Monad of man's mind can link to the physical sun and the other radiations not physical but still expression of the one central Monad which everything partakes of, but nothing is. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 08 Sep 96 11:52:06 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Ann on Virag - Divine Indifference Message-ID: <960908155206_74024.3352_BHT86-2@CompuServe.COM> I am having trouble with my computer so I can't copy and save and paste very well, but I read again what I replied to Ann regard Virag and I didn't like what I said (which isn't unusual since I am really brainstorming rather than setting out a final statement for once and all, as I am a student trying to learn etc.) Anyway, Ann pointed out that by taking a Cosmic perspective to pleasure and pain, we detach from both or see their unity in the purpose of teaching lessons ( I think this is what you said). I think this is getting to the crucial point about killing out desire, it isn't killing out desire, but detaching from the lower identification with MY desire, MY pain and gaining a lareger perspective of OUR pain, OUR gain and finally the Larger Will. I would like to suggest that what we are trying to identify with something called Aviletokesvara (the Lord Looking Down) is just this, the Monad, but ultimately not MY Mondad, but THE MONAD. When this perspective relieves one of the forced selfish perspective of the fighting lower bodies, one is liberated from their bondage. This Divine Indiffernce could if not checked lead some to the "repent now, the end is near" approach or even "I am the One. the teacher of the will of God." I think this is why killing out desire for gain of personal power for the ego is alway stated so rigourously and why the occult is so rightly considered "dangerous". Jung always wondered if he was doing the right thing, by talking about such large issues and always talkied about the phenomenon of Self or Self-as-it-appears-in human consciousness rather the nomenon of Self orSelf-as-it really is. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:03:33 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: In message <960907123238_303455901@emout07.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >The Breath becomes a stone; the stone, a plant; the plant an animal; the >animal, a man; the man, an angel; the angel, God. Age 1-7, Animating Cycle; >age 7-14, Physical Cycle; age 14-21, Desire-Feeling Cycle; age 21-28, >Desire-Mental Cycle; age 28-35, Mental Cycle; age 35-42 Spirit-Mental Cycle; >age 42-49, Spiritual Cycle. Hmmm. I am 63. The Universe is hereby cancelled. Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:09:55 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <5SPY2HAj52MyEwW8@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960907123238_303455901@emout07.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Secondly, modern dietary or other hormonal-affecting aberrations may have >screwed up the significance of precise ages altogether. I have read that >around age 14 used to be a quite common time for the onset of menses; now, >one hears about even 8- and 9-year old girls getting their periods. I have >no idea what is going on, but it certainly diminishes any predictive value of >the Doctrine of Seven-Year Cycles based on strict age-related considerations. One *hears* about these things more often now, that's all. Cases of what is medically described as Precocious Puberty have been known for centuries. Sooo ... nothing unusual is going on. Recently on UK TV there was a documentary on "XY Women" who are genetically and chromosomally male, but have no testes or male genitalia, and usually only a variable amount of the usual female reproductive equipment. The lack of a uterus is common. Such folk have been around for centuries too. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:23:03 -0800 From: ArtHouse Subject: Communication Message-ID: <32336367.2ABC@earthlink.net> A comment on the discussion about communication: As a medium of social exchange we do have to share some sort of agreement in time, as to what words mean, in order to be able to understand each other even a little. That "agreement" can make words appear opaque as it is largely taken for granted and often unconfirmed. It's a root cause of many of our misunderstandings. Wouldn't you agree? But words are not as opaque as they appear. Take a simple word like "love". We encounter it at a young age and with it a certain meaning (a gift from our social/cultural heritage). As we progress in our lives and gain experience, that little word and the simple glyph that represents it can often have the bottom fall out and take on extended meanings of both nuanced and profound significance. This ability for open endedness and expansion, which can happen for us personally each time we have a new experience, is one of the most wonderful reflectors of our growth. It follows that mindful use of language via the spoken and written word can be in itself a great gift of service. A deep meditation on the word "I", for instance, and the silence that proceeds it, can be of unestimable value. Clues and hints abound in the literature that can help us penetrate to exquisite interior processes whereby spiritual value can be represented and communicated by the very thought of who we are. Language, whether it be thought, spoken or written, has its origin in the Logos. Peace, Mark Once again, I invite you all to a web exhibition of artwork based on some theosophical ideas at: http://www.musicpowernetwork.com/ts/ P.S. Can anyone fill me in on the relation between the Theosphical Society and Alice Bailey, the nature of their schism and any official TS stance on her teachings to date? Also the same regarding the I AM Movement of Guy and Edna Ballard in the 1930's, The Bridge to Freedom and the Summit Lighthouse organization of Mark and Elizabeth Prophet? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:13:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Walkies Message-ID: <$CrZyKAy82MyEw2r@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960906005351_302659187@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Jesus sort of got into trouble again. He tried walking across Lake Michigan >while the Democrats were holding their convention and now the Secret Service >has him locked up as a terrorist. Just doesn't learn from past experience, I guess. > Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:35:05 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Angels & Communication Message-ID: Greetings y'all! Have been hovering in the background lately - busy as a hive of bees and with no spare energy to contribute - but after having read the "Communication" conversation I remembered a piece of a letter to a friend ... we were discussing active work with the angelic kingdom, and the excerpt below is maybe a different viewpoint on the topic of what "conversation" and "understanding" are. It is probably a somewhat oblique point of view (but the angelic is an oblique sort of kingdom (-:), and I by no means think its the "truth", but a hope a few people will find it interesting. -JRC *************************************************************** .. let me say a short little bit about the "diagnosticians" I mentioned. They are relatively small angelic currents that appear to be somewhat new and experimental branches of a much larger current - and they have been intent upon learning to understand the human energy-system to a greater degree of specificity than has been present in the past. In fact, I once saw them re-joining the larger current after they did a piece of work for me, and I believe they were "reporting their results" ... which in angelic terms means merging the awareness they had gathered with that of the larger current. "Knowledge" is not conveyed in small bundles of crystallized concepts (words) as it is in the human realm, rather, well hang on a sec, this is important so maybe I'll take a paragraph and introduce it here: To a human, any understanding exists as kind of a mini- bundle of awareness of a particular intensity, vibrational frequency, complexity & etc. When the understanding comes through the agency of the physical senses, it is processed and enters the human energy system where, if it goes into long-term memory, it exists in a dormant form (like a violin string with the *potential* to vibrate at a particular frequency) - and when it is brought back to the surface, the string is "plucked" and begins active resonance ... i.e., the person "remembers" it and has it available at the surface (conscious) layers. Other understandings - awareness-bundles - that enter the energy-system from within ... e.g., intuitions from the spiritual layers of being, perceptions of activity in the angelic realm & etc., may exist in the energy-system without ever being fully brought into surface consciousness, but nonetheless exist. In fact much of what is called "meditation" or "contemplation" is, in essence, the attempt to induce a set of conditions at the surface layers that provide an invitation to those deeper bundles to enter into active vibration, echo into the surface layers, and hence express themselves in the crystallized forms of surface consciousness. It might be said that meditation is an attempt to *remember what one has never known*. When two people have a conversation, the words they use as information transmission vehicles are containers of sorts: One person has an active awareness-bundle within their energy system, which, as it resonates and moves towards the surface, collects the appropriate concepts and finally words from the subconscious, resulting in the bundle being embedded in a form capable of being spoken. When the other hears it, the words enter their energy- field through the ear, and their processing system begins unpacking the containers, causing (if they understand what is being said) a vibrational tone to be struck in their system that is very similar to the originating impulse within the speaker. The relevant point here is that the angelic process is very different, and understanding that difference with a bit of precision is one of the keys to human/angelic interaction. Angelic currents have no "dormant" state in which information exists as potential: They are *continually* in motion, and **their motion *is* their knowledge**. When two angelic currents have a "conversation", the "idea" that one wishes to convey to the other is an already active vibration within the one existing as a kind of sub-current within itself; it then directs that particular sub-current into the other, which sets up an identical vibration within the receiver's currents; when the original sub- current is then withdrawn back into the "speaker", the "hearer" is left with a new vibrational frequency within itself ... i.e., has the particular understanding that was in the speaker *replicated* as an understanding that is then a permanent part of itself. The "diagnosticians" are a sort of specialized angelic "ears", whose purpose has been to learn how to "hear" the human system in all its complexity and depth [they've always been more than happy to work for me 'cause, as is the common method of meeting in the inner worlds, we both further one another's purposes, and because I will do them favors when they ask. They will hover around a particular person (or group energy-system if its a community or some slice of a nation I'm in service to) for awhile and take samplings of the general state of the system (which means they reproduce, within themselves, the various levels of the system they are looking at), and after they have a good sample, they (and this is their particular specialty) are able to produce a sort of averaged or typical picture of the system. Their true art lies in the fact that for the most part they have solved the "quantum paradox" that Heisenberg first noticed in the study of subatomic particles : most angelic currents, were they to concentrate themselves into dense enough form to actually become aware of the full human energy-system, would also cause the system itself to react dramatically to them ... hence causing the observed to be very much affected by the act of observation and rendering the resulting picture distorted. These particular angels have a light touch, and it is getting lighter all the time with experience. When they return to convey, to me, the results, I enter in a partial angelic configuration, merge with the current within *them* that they reproduced from the system being observed, which sets up a sub-current within my own system, which, as I re-configure into form, also reconfigures into form, which means I have a bundle of awareness within myself that is, in essence, an averaged sample of the general state of the energy-system that was observed. I've created a sort of room inside my system where these bundles are contained. When I'm ready to do the processing, one of two things can be done with this bundle: It can either be processed through the interfaces that turn inner awareness into conscious level pictures (very much like remembering a person from my past), or I can enter the bundle with my point of identification (and the Point of Identification is something that will take an entire essay ... as it's control and use is one of the cores of day to day work in the inner worlds) and, (hope this makes sense) sort of look out at the world *through* the energy-system of the person/system that was observed. The first delivers an awareness similar to what results from a visit to the person and several conversations. The second delivers an awareness similar to having actually incarnated, for a fraction of a moment, *within* the person's energy-system. **************************************************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:13:41 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: medidtating for peace Message-ID: <199609090521.BAA12949@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear e-mail friends, I imagine that we're all meditating or praying for peace in the Middle East, at this point. There was a biography of Sadam Hussein on TV this afternoon. IMO some of the details might give focus to our thought endeavors. Sadam was brutalized already before he was born, and all during childhood. His father & older brother died before he was born, & his mother didn't want him. Tried to kill him in utero. Blamed the deaths on him. Lateron, instead of going to school, his uncle, who treated him no better, made him steal chickens. He killed his first person when he was 10. The first thing this story aroused in me was compassion, and a motherly "poor baby" (don't laugh. I know he's a killer) and it occurred to me that this may not be a bad thing to send even to the butcher of Bagdad. He's never known love from anyone. He must be a very tortured human being. Probably has lots of night mares. He must live in great fear. The minute he suspects that someone is against him, he kills them off, no questions asked before or after. It also occurred to me to send healing vibes, even though I'm not sure that healing would have an effect on a congenital psychopath, which is what he is, since its causes go back already to before he was born. I always send harmony and peace, but everyone has their own way of doing things like that. I was thinking that maybe if I told you about these things, our meditations would be more effective. I need to say something else ... a repeat of a previous message. There are hundreds of thousands of potential little Sadams being brutalized right now in Pakistan and other Asian countries as slave labor & prostitutes. In Africa & South America kids are starving & living in the gutters. I think we shouldn't be too surprised if some of them grow up to be trouble makers. It takes just one who's devilishly bright, & has charisma. As Clinton & Dole say "our children are our future" I've done my share with a handful of them. I'd like to urge some fo you to help some of those kids as well. It's worth it. (if only for self-preservation. I'm being my cynical self.) Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 05:55:34 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Angels & Communication Message-ID: Hi I seem to recall there is a "concept" that in our consciousness it time based ie. is dependent on passage of time. There is a distinct possibility that there is a state which is not dependent on time. What one "sees" or "understands" when one is in get out of the time dependent consciousness. May be there is only timeless awareness. As I have not had personal experience in these things, they are just "concepts" or hypotheses for me until such time I can personally vouch for the actuality of these things. It seems what has been described may be happening in a timeless state. My 2 cents worth. ...Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 06:02:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: medidtating for peace Message-ID: Liesel: It is very warming to see your message. When we take time to think about our fellow human beings and send them any help -- physical or non physical -- it is bound to help however little it may be. When more of us keep the welfare of our fellow human all over the world at the back of our mind all the time, it will impact on our daily life. You have made my day. It is 6.00 AM on Monday when I write this message. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Dear e-mail friends, > > I imagine that we're all meditating or praying for peace in the Middle East, > at this point. There was a biography of Sadam Hussein on TV this afternoon. > IMO some of the details might give focus to our thought endeavors. Sadam was > brutalized already before he was born, and all during childhood. His father > & older brother died before he was born, & his mother didn't want him. Tried > to kill him in utero. Blamed the deaths on him. Lateron, instead of going to > school, his uncle, who treated him no better, made him steal chickens. He > killed his first person when he was 10. > > The first thing this story aroused in me was compassion, and a motherly > "poor baby" (don't laugh. I know he's a killer) and it occurred to me that > this may not be a bad thing to send even to the butcher of Bagdad. He's > never known love from anyone. He must be a very tortured human being. > Probably has lots of night mares. He must live in great fear. The minute he > suspects that someone is against him, he kills them off, no questions asked > before or after. It also occurred to me to send healing vibes, even though > I'm not sure that healing would have an effect on a congenital psychopath, > which is what he is, since its causes go back already to before he was born. > I always send harmony and peace, but everyone has their own way of doing > things like that. > > I was thinking that maybe if I told you about these things, our meditations > would be more effective. > > I need to say something else ... a repeat of a previous message. There are > hundreds of thousands of potential little Sadams being brutalized right now > in Pakistan and other Asian countries as slave labor & prostitutes. In > Africa & South America kids are starving & living in the gutters. I think we > shouldn't be too surprised if some of them grow up to be trouble makers. It > takes just one who's devilishly bright, & has charisma. As Clinton & Dole > say "our children are our future" I've done my share with a handful of them. > I'd like to urge some fo you to help some of those kids as well. It's worth > it. (if only for self-preservation. I'm being my cynical self.) > > > Liesel > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:26:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Another K article, this one from "Share International" , (http://www.shareintl.org/kfirst.html) (fwd) Message-ID: Here is a message I picked up. TS and Krishnaji are historically linked for ever. It might interest some of the recipients. M K Ramadoss > Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 09:19:55 EDT > From: Bruce Morgen > Subject: Another K article, this one from "Share International" (http://www.shareintl.org/kfirst.html) THE PATHLESS JOURNEY OF JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI by Bette Stockbauer As early as 1889 Helena Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society, had told certain of her students that the purpose of Theosophy was to prepare humanity for the coming of the Lord Maitreya, the World Teacher for the Aquarian Age. After Blavatsky's death, Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater considered it their task to carry on this work, part of which was the preparation of a disciple who would serve as a vehicle for the Teacher when He came. In 1909 at Adyar, India, Leadbeater discovered a boy whose aura he judged to be completely free of selfishness. This was Jiddu Krishnamurti, who was 13 years old. Adopted by Besant and Leadbeater, he received intensive training, then 10 years of schooling in England. People in many countries were informed of his future role. At the age of 27, Krishnamurti had a personal vision which convinced him that the consciousness of Maitreya was beginning to overshadow him. Theosophists throughout the world had been waiting for this development. But when he was 34, Krishnamurti renounced his association with the Theosophical Society, declaring: "I do not want followers. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free." He spent the rest of his years teaching humanity how to achieve that freedom. Mary Lutyens, a lifelong friend and confidant, wrote the biographical trilogy which chronicles his life -- _Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening_; _The Years of Fulfilment_; and _The Open Door_. The following article is drawn from this trilogy. It attempts to trace the evolution of the relationship that developed between Krishnamurti and the spiritual presence that filled his being. Rarely has such a relationship been so well-documented -- by his own journals and letters and by the written accounts of the people who loved him. Krishnamurti's upbringing was wholly uncommon. Few in history have been accorded the early status he knew. Thousands around the world knew of his special mission, and from boyhood, adulation followed his footsteps. Yet pride was never in his nature, nor any thought of personal gain. Though the deference he received was a great source of embarrassment for him, he met it with grace and dignity. This total lack of self-importance was evident from his earliest years. He was born in 1895 in northern India to a high-caste Brahmin family. In his youth, he was completely generous and knew no distinction between himself and the servants attending him. Timid and inward, he could stand by a window for hours, staring into the distance. Tiny insects, fallen leaves, the rocks, and grass were objects of long and constant wonder to him. So vague and dreamy was his nature that many in his village thought him to be backward and dull-witted. When he was 10 his mother died, and his father seemed unable to care for the family. Krishnamurti had always been sickly, at times close to death. His discovery by Leadbeater almost surely saved his life. From early on grew his feeling of the special protection that always surrounded him. A pliable nature and deep sense of the spiritual encompassed each of the teachings he met -- of the Buddha, Sri Krishna and the Lord Maitreya -- without resistance or comparison. All of life, it seemed, flowed through the child in equal measure. With humility and wonder he bowed his head to the wellspring of Being he sensed in all existence. This quality of acceptance stayed with K* to adulthood. The complete fearlessness which became its expression would startle the world in many ways. At the age of 15, K was instructing adult students in the principles of Theosophy. At 16, he headed an international society, "The Order of the Star in the East" (OSE) formed to create an atmosphere of welcome and reverence for the coming Teacher. In addition to daily tutoring in both normal and occult studies, he began to travel with Annie Besant and spoke to audiences throughout the world. These were difficult years for Theosophy. Blavatsky's guidance had ceased with her death in 1891 and the world had yet to receive the teachings of Alice Bailey whose books, inspired by the Master Djwhal Khul, specifically outlined the path of initiation and the proper relation of humanity to Hierarchy. For the Theosophists of Besant's days, many details of the evolutionary journey were left to the imagination, and imaginations often ran rampant. Undue emphasis was placed on personal contact with the Masters and competition for higher initiatory status became a disruptive force. These imbalances were deeply troubling to K, and the years he spent in England saw his beginning disillusionment with the Society, with the "Masters", and with spiritual practices. He felt rootless and bereft of meaning, yet he continued to head The Order of the Star, out of loyalty to his benefactors and some inner belief in the role he was to play. Vision at Ojai In 1922 he experienced a vision which would redirect the course of his life. It happened high in a mountain valley south of Los Angeles, named by the Native Americans "Ojai" or "The Nest." For two weeks, he had meditated constantly, envisioning the image of the Lord Maitreya before him. He then began to experience extreme pain in his neck and spine, and long periods of delirium. Day and night he struggled, unable to sleep or eat, often leaving his body, often seeing visionary happenings. On the third evening he was drawn from his small cottage to sit beneath a pepper tree alive with the fragrance of spring blossoms. What followed next was recorded in his own words: "When I had sat thus for some time, I felt myself going out of my body, I saw myself sitting down with the delicate tender leaves of the tree over me. I was facing the east. In front of me was my body and over my head I saw the Star, bright and clear. Then I could feel the vibrations of the Lord Buddha; I beheld Lord Maitreya and Master KH. I was so happy, calm and at peace. I could still see my body and I was hovering near it. There was such profound calmness both in the air and within myself, the calmness of the bottom of a deep unfathomable lake.... The Presence of the mighty Beings was with me for some time and then They were gone. I was supremely happy, for I had seen. Nothing could ever be the same. I have drunk at the clear and pure waters at the source of the fountain of life and my thirst was appeased.... I have touched compassion which heals all sorrow and suffering; it is not for myself, but for the world. I have stood on the mountain top and gazed at the mighty Beings.... Love in all its glory has intoxicated my heart; my heart can never be closed. I have drunk at the fountain of Joy and eternal Beauty. I am God-intoxicated." To Leadbeater he wrote: "I feel once again in touch with Lord Maitreya and the Master and there is nothing else for me to do but to serve Them. My whole life, now, is ... devoted to the work and I am not likely to change." And to Besant: "I feel as though I am sitting on a mountain top in adoration and that Lord Maitreya is close to me. I feel as though I am walking on delicate and perfumed air. The horizon of my life is clear and the sky-line is beautiful and precise." "The process" Another occurrence, connected with his spiritual change, was the phenomenon he always described as "the process". It had begun in the three painful days before his vision and would recur, in varying intensity, throughout his life. Extreme pain and out-of-body experiences would accompany its advent. In its early manifestation, K would sense a definite presence, like the Lord Maitreya who came one evening with this message: "Learn to serve me, for along that path alone will you find me. Forget yourself, for then only am I to be found. Do not look for the Great Ones when they may be very near you. You are like the blind man who seeks sunshine. You are like the hungry man who is offered food and will not eat. The happiness you seek is not far off; it lies in every common stone. I am there if you will only see. I am the Helper if you will let Me help." From this time in his life, all who knew him could sense his gathering power. From this point, he spoke from the heart, he spoke without fear, he seemed to speak from Truth itself. The "overshadowing" At a Star gathering in 1925 he began to speak of the World Teacher, saying: "He comes only to those who want, who desire, who long ..." As his listeners watched, his face suddenly brightened. His voice, now speaking in the first person, rang out with resonant power: "... and I come for those who want sympathy, who want happiness, who are longing to be released, who are longing to find happiness in all things. I come to reform and not to tear down, I come not to destroy but to build." Most who saw the speech assumed the Lord Maitreya had fully entered the consciousness of K, and at this point K seemed to as well: "The memory of the 28th (the day of the gathering) should be to you as if you were guarding some precious jewel and every time you look at it you must feel a thrill. Then when He comes again, and I am sure that He will come again very soon, it will be for us a nobler and far more beautiful occasion than even last time. I feel like a crystal vase, a jar that has been cleaned and now anybody in the world can put a beautiful flower in it and that flower shall live in the vase and never die." Theosophical reaction Wide publicity was given to his assumed overshadowing. This, unfortunately, only served to exaggerate the existing imbalances in the Society. Some Theosophists were vying for position in the coming World Order, claiming impossible access to the highest levels of the spiritual world. Competition increased -- one disciple even claimed to have advanced three levels of initiation in three days. Public announcements were issued about the selection of 10 of the 12 "apostles" for the coming work. All of them were Theosophists. Sometimes amused and sometimes disheartened, K observed the tumult surrounding him. In speech after speech he tried to show his fellows a truer path -- a way of inward direction that refused to follow anything but the spark of God within the soul. Over time he began to downplay a personal relationship with the spiritual kingdom. Less and less did he speak of Maitreya or the Masters or any other entity. His expression became increasingly abstract, as though seeking to reach beyond the realm of the physical to touch the essential source of Being that animates all expression. "When I was a small boy I used to see Sri Krishna, with the flute, as he is pictured by the Hindus, because my mother was a devotee of Sri Krishna.... When I grew older and met with Bishop Leadbeater and the Theosophical Society, I began to see the Master KH -- again in the form which was put before me... -- and hence the Master KH was to me the end. Later on, as I grew, I began to see the Lord Maitreya.... Now lately, it has been the Buddha whom I have been seeing, and it has been my delight and my glory to be with Him. "I have been asked what I mean by 'the Beloved'. I will give a meaning, an explanation, which you will interpret as you please. To me it is all -- it is Sri Krishna, it is the Master KH, it is the Lord Maitreya, it is the Buddha, and yet it is beyond all these forms. What does it matter what name you give?... What you are troubling about is whether there is such a person as the World Teacher who has manifested Himself in the body of a certain person, Krishnamurti: but in the world nobody will trouble about this question.... My Beloved is the open skies, the flower, every human being.... I have been united with my Beloved, and my Beloved and I will wander together the face of the earth ... (and) you will not understand the Beloved until you are able to see Him in every animal, in every blade of grass, in every person that is suffering, in every individual." The renunciation As he began to distance himself from Theosophical teachings, he predicted that, "Everyone will give me up." He began to call his experiences of the Masters "incidents" and described the rites of initiation as completely irrelevant to the search for Truth. "If you would seek the Truth you must go out, far away from the limitations of the human mind and heart and there discover it -- and that Truth is within yourself. Is it not much simpler to make Life itself the goal ... than to have mediators, _gurus_, who must inevitably step down the Truth, and hence betray it?" In 1929 he dissolved the Order of the Star. At this point it numbered 60,000 members, managed huge sums of money, and owned tracts of land throughout the world, many designated for K's future work. He was 34 years old. Excerpts from his final speech follow: "I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect.... I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind; please understand this ... If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth.... "This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.... For 18 years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For 18 years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds .. who would set you free -- and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different ... in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential?... "You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?... I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free ... from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself.... You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free." Few there were who could grasp this freedom, and, sadly, those who had warned the world for years that the coming of the Christ would challenge all existing systems seemed themselves unable to encompass that challenge when it came. The Theosophical Society was left in total bewilderment. Krishnamurti never looked back. What he did he did with love and no trace of bitterness. The Truth that was growing in him was his only concern; the Presence that filled his being was his only guide. From that Truth came compassion for every living thing. From that guidance would emerge a teaching that cut to the root of the attachments that have crippled humanity for thousands of years. K would live another 56 years. During all of these years he would teach -- through his lectures, through his books, and through the schools he founded. Surprisingly, though most of his old friends fell away just as he had predicted, attendance at his talks did not diminish. In practically every year of his life, he toured the world. Rather than lecture he would "enter into inquiry" with his audiences, warning them not to blindly accept what he said but to look deep into their own hearts and discover the truth of their own being. Teachings All of his teachings reverberate to the themes of freedom and self-awareness. Fear, death, love, thought, security, and time -- each can be a cage, and humanity can choose either to move beyond its limitation or remain a tortured prisoner. His insights are startling because totally honest. He shows that experience, when not based on pure observation, easily becomes distorted when thought introduces either the past, with its accumulated guilt and pain, or the future, with its vested interests to maintain. Utopias and visions of personal perfection, the promised heaven of the sanyasi and saint -- all rob the present of its power. Each forms an avenue of escape from the pain of the world. This pain was not invented by some careless God, but by each human being who occupies the earth. As such, each one is responsible for its resolution. In pure self-awareness is born the solution. K calls it choiceless awareness -- an acceptance that views life without resistance or prejudice, without offering itself any possible means of escape. This complete "honesty of mind" becomes a total penetration into the heart of _what is_. A humanity which can discriminate between the true and the false, that can face itself in all its glory, and all its shame, has begun to set itself free. The presence Many people would remark on the energy surrounding K wherever he went. In moments of intimacy, when sharing with close friends, K would suddenly stop and look around saying: "Can you feel it in the room?" Lutyens once asked him: "What is _this thing_? I know you have always felt protected, but what or who is it that protects you?" "It's there, as if it were behind a curtain," he replied, stretching out his hand. "I _could_ lift it but I don't feel it is my business to." In 1961 and again 12 years later K kept notes of "this thing" which he called by many names -- the "immensity", the "other", the "sacredness", the "benediction". The visitations of the "other" were always connected with his "process", and accompanied by pain, which he never resisted. The notes were written in pencil with hardly any erasures and were published as _Krishnamurti's Notebook_, and _Krishnamurti's Journal_. They are poetry of the highest order, the privileged sharing of a great soul's communion with the infinite. "The room became full of that benediction.... It was the centre of all creation; it was a purifying seriousness that cleansed the brain of every thought, and feeling; its seriousness was as lightning which destroys and burns up; the profundity of it was not measurable, it was there immovable, impenetrable, a solidity that was as light as the heavens.... There was impenetrable dignity and a peace that was the essence of all movement, action. No virtue touched it for it was ... utterly perishable and so it had the delicacy of all new things, vulnerable, destructible and yet it was beyond all this.... It was 'pure', untouched so ever dyingly beautiful. "... of a sudden that unknowable immensity was there, not only in the room and beyond but also deep, in the innermost recesses, which was once the mind ... that immensity left no mark, it was there, clear, strong, impenetrable and unapproachable whose intensity was fire which left no ash. With it was bliss." The following he wrote when he was 85, describing the culmination of a meditation that had come to him in the depth of night for many years: "One night in the strange stillness ... he woke up to find something totally different and new. The movement had reached the source of all energy. This must in no way be confused with, or even thought of, as god or the highest principle, the Brahman, which are the projections of the human mind out of fear and longing, the unyielding desire for total security. It is none of those things. Desire cannot possibly reach it, words cannot fathom it nor can the string of thought wind itself around it. One may ask with what assurance do you state that it is the source of all energy? One can only reply with complete humility that it is so." Who is Krishnamurti? Mary Lutyens had known K since she was three years old. Her family had a deep and intimate connection with his life. Yet even she could never fully understand the essence of his strength. At the end of _Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment_, she records an inquiry into "the phenomenon of K". How, she asked, could such a dreamy boy, sometimes considered retarded, produce such original and insightful teachings? Was there a universal pool of knowledge he had learned to tap? Was he the product of an evolutionary process -- developed through many lives? Or was it true that Maitreya had inhabited part or all of his consciousness for these many years? K thought there was probably no way that he himself could give an answer, for, "Water can never find out what water is," but he encouraged others to explore. "If you find out," he said, "I'll corroborate it." Two aspects, he thought, were vital -- the vacant mind that had been his since childhood, and the sense of protection he had always known. Referring to himself, K said: "How is it that the vacant mind was not filled with Theosophy etc?... Why didn't he become an abomination with all that adulation? Why didn't he become cynical, bitter?... Right through life (this vacuity) has been guarded, protected. When I get into an airplane I know nothing will happen.... It is extraordinary.... That thing must have said: 'There must be vacancy or I -- it -- cannot function.' "It would be simple if we said that the Lord Maitreya prepared this body and kept it vacant. That would be the simplest explanation but the simplest is suspect. Another explanation is that K's ego might have been in touch with the Lord Maitreya and the Buddha and said, 'I withdraw: _that_ is more important than my beastly self.' But I suspect this too. It implies a lot of superstition. It doesn't feel clean, right, somehow. The Lord Maitreya saw this body with the least ego, wanted to manifest through it and so it was kept uncontaminated.... So what is the truth? I don't know. I really don't know. Another peculiar thing in all this is that K has always been attracted to the Buddha.... Is that reservoir the Buddha?, the Lord Maitreya?" Lutyens asked about his teachings. Were they made by him, or the mysterious power? He answered: "Let us be clear. If I deliberately sat down to write it, I doubt if I could produce it.... Here there is this phenomenon of this chap who isn't trained, who has had no discipline. How did he get all this?... It is like -- what is the biblical term? -- revelation. It happens all the time when I'm talking.... There is a sense of vacuity and then something happens." "There is an element in all this which is not man-made, thought-made, not self-induced.... If you ask it what it is, it wouldn't answer. It would say: 'You are too small'.... Are we trying to touch a mystery? The moment you understand it, it is no longer a mystery. But the sacredness is not a mystery. So we are trying to remove the mystery leading to the source." Lutyens was inclined to think that K had indeed been used by something from the outside since 1922, but K himself had often said that thought could never explain that which lay beyond it. Perhaps the freedom and the mystery of K lies in his venture to that realm beyond, not only of aspects of thought, but of time and space as well. Perhaps his journey was through that "pathless land" of the intuition wherein reside both eternal beauty and communion with all existence. When that land is found, then perhaps his mystery will be understood. The death Krishnamurti died in 1986 at the age of 90, at Ojai, the place where his vision was born. He was surrounded by only a handful of friends. His body, in death, was wrapped in silk; a white camellia lay at his feet. His ashes were scattered in his most loved places so that no one would erect a temple to worship his remains. Often he had wondered if his life had made a difference in the still suffering world that surrounded him. But until the end he never ceased to teach, like all of the others -- the Great Ones and Watchers of our evolution -- who silently witness and go on with their work, endlessly reaching out to a humanity often too blind to see. He said that the "Presence" was with him at all times in the last few years of his life. The curtain which had hidden its view must have become, by then, a thin veil. One senses that his death was but a tiny step beyond that veil, and his entry into the life beyond an almost imperceptible departure from the life that he had given to the world. * Krishnamurti preferred to be called K. He spoke and wrote of himself in the third person. _Share International_ gratefully thanks the Krishnamurti Foundation of America for permission to quote the words of K. We also thank the Krishnamurti Foundation of America and the Krishnamurti Foundation Holland for the use of the photographs reproduced in this issue. In no way should it be assumed, however, that either the Krishnamurti Foundation or Mary Lutyens supports the philosophical ideas published in Share International magazine. The following information has been published in the pages of _Share International_: From Maitreya's Teachings: "When Krishnamurti was asked to take up certain positions, he declined, saying he was not a guru of anything. He was a true disciple of Maitreya. The teachings of Krishnamurti are the teachings of Maitreya. Madame Blavatsky and Alice Bailey had glimpses of the teaching, but they became involved in the processes of teaching. In Maitreya's view, everyone in the Theosophical Society except Krishnamurti failed in the sense that they got more involved in the mechanism of the forces of evolution and the search for their sources instead of realizing the teachings of the Lord. Krishnamurti wanted no one to write about him. Those who were interested could listen to his taped talks." September, 1988, p.10. Once you 'eat' knowledge (a possessive act) rather than facing knowledge with awareness, whereby you understand that you must not 'grab', you are no longer free. When Krishnamurti became aware in this way, he declined the role of guru: the true Lord is in the heart. If you want to know Him, try to understand the voice of silence. In silence there is freedom from _prakritis_, from conditioning. Silence is that space which is free from conditioning. What is important is the Lord within you." November 1988, p.10. Compilation from Questions and Answers, by Benjamin Creme: J.Krishnamurti (Soul 2; personality 2, sub-ray 6; mental body 4, sub-ray 4; astral body 6, sub-ray 2; physical body 7, sub-ray 7) was born a 3rd degree initiate and took the 4th initiation at the age of 49 (1944). At one time he was being prepared, along with a few others, by overshadowing**, as a possible vehicle for the World Teacher. This overshadowing, which K called "the process", caused him terrible pain and agony. His double 7th ray body, oversensitive and not very adaptable or resilient, may have been the reason for his suffering. When the Lord Maitreya decided to manifest Himself by means of the self-created body (mayavirupa) K began his teaching work. I would say that K is preparing the way for the Christ's work. He is only one, one of many ... but in his particular manner, is preparing people psychologically ... for the first and second initiations. He is expected to take incarnation again by the end of the century. In _Discipleship in the New Age II_, by Alice A Bailey, pp.171-172, the Master DK states: "... through this overshadowing of disciples in all lands, He (the Christ) will duplicate Himself repeatedly.... One of the first experiments He made as He prepared for this form of activity was in connection with Krishnamurti. It was only partially successful. The power used by Him was distorted and misapplied by the devotee type*** of which the Theosophical Society is largely composed, and the experiment was brought to an end; it served, however, a most useful purpose. As a result of the war (WWII), mankind has been disillusioned: devotion is no longer regarded as adequate or necessary to the spiritual life or its effectiveness. The war was won, not through devotion or the attachment of millions of men to some prized ideal: it was won by the simple performance of duty, and the desire to safeguard human rights.... When Christ again seeks to overshadow His disciples, a different reaction will be looked for.... No devotee is independent; he is a prisoner of an idea or a person." **For information on overshadowing see _A Treatise on Cosmic Fire_, pp.747-760, also by Alice A. Bailey. ***For commentary on the 6th ray of devotion see: _Esoteric Psychology II_, by Alice A Bailey, pp.371-375, 456-457, 596-606, and 713-714. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Sep 96 08:16:31 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Active Listening to the Voice Message-ID: <960909121631_72723.2375_FHP51-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >>I mean if I were a >>Monad, I guess I wouldn't want a tired stressed-out dirty body to unite with. Alan: >We monads never do ... We monads use shampoo and always have a perfect 'do. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Sep 96 08:20:44 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Patanjali and VOS Message-ID: <960909122044_74024.3352_BHT85-1@CompuServe.COM> Martin writes: Will all its archaic and difficulties the VOS is a great book-teacher for ages to come as a roadmap of the Path. Regarding "The Mind is the Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer," I simply interpreted the work "kill" as "Nirodaha" from the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. He defines Yoga as Chitta Vritti Nirodaha, usually translated as 'restraining' (in VOS as 'kill') the mental modification. The reason I went to Patanjali is because earlier in the Voice HPB mentions the word Dharana or "concentration" (more or less) from the 8 limbs or steps of the Yoga system. I found Taimni (Science of Yoga) translation and commentaries very useful on this subject. Peace and Harmony to all, Martin _________________________________________________________________- Keith: We are studiying VOS at the Houston Lodge also. Chandra Joysti from the Adyar lodge in India is conducting the meeting over several months. He has given THE YOGA SUTRAS of PATANJALI written cira 500 A.D. as a possible source for some of the ideas presented in the VOS. I will try to copy some of the aphorisms, if people think it might be helpful for our discussion. The main idea that struck me was the similarity to Ann's idea that the VOICE is like a bird that looks down at the lower bird eating a fruit. The higher bird sees the lower bird with compassion, but is unmoved. Patanjali seems to come from a dualistic perspective. The idea is that the below is bad and the higher is GOOD. We must kill the lower and rise to the higher. I am not sure this is what theosophy teachers. I tend to personally believe in non-dualism. That is the higher is the lower, we just are conscious of it, but can return to non-dualism through meditation. The goal is not to escape the clutches of evil matter, but disidentify with the dualistic mind that makes it opposed to the DIVINE UNITY. There is this trend in some theosphical writings. Many seem to have the cosmology of Hinduism, the ethics of Buddhism and the morality of Christianity in some strange (to me) mixture. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Sep 96 09:41:14 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Psychgogeneis Message-ID: <960909134114_74024.3352_BHT170-1@CompuServe.COM> Murray writes> >I hadn't heard of psychogenesis either, until coming across Richard >Ihle's ideas on it. Richard Ihle writes> Thanks to Murray for generous words. I was also very interested that his computer search for ~psychogenesis~ turned up some instances of its earlier use. As I mentioned some time back, the term seems like such a natural and obvious complement to HPB's ~Cosmogenesis~ and ~Anthropogenesis~ that it is highly unlikely that I would have been the first one to use it to describe the idea that "psyche" may not be an unchanging static "entity" but that it functions as a sort of "perpetually travelling mirror" which can at least to some degree reflect the animating, physical, desire-feeling, desire-mental, mental, Spirit-mental, and Spiritual (Atma-Buddhic) components of a human incarnation and thus become "egoically deluded" about its more fundamental and divine nature. The "Levels" may be seven (or five or whatever), but since each instance of temporary, partial "Self-forgetting" counts as an "ego-formation" in its own right, the psyche has countless potential "costumes"--a central feature of Gurdjieff's work, I believe. "I am my objective knowledge of the proper procedure for changing a tire," and "I am my dispassionate understanding of what HPB probably meant by Fohat" are both examples of the same Fifth-Level psyche even though they involve different-seeming ego-formations. Now, the idea that I in my youth once thought I could become famous for was not psychogenesis itself but rather the "Doctrine of the Seven-Year Cycles." That sufficient experience as one type of psyche encourages the "generation" of the next, higher type of psyche seems to be obvious. For example, the "Fourth Level vegetarian" ("I am my non-meat-eating idea which has been formed because of sympathy for the animals etc.") may naturally progress into a "Fifth-Level vegetarian" ("I am my non-meat-eating idea which has been formed by the desire-free logic, science, or personal experience that eating meat is unhealthy"). No, I thought I could make it big not with psychogenesis, which seems to be the standard notion underlying all systems of "Spiritual e Murry S. writes: In my own piece on theos-roots headed "Psychogenesis and the VOS", I said >I have just done a search on the Internet for the single word >"psychogenesis" using the AltaVista engine, and I came up with 42 different >articles or books that contained the word somewhere. .... Most of the >titles looked pretty much in the psychological field, excepting for one >about Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. That one looked deeply fascinating and so >theosophical in its ideas of unity and brotherhood (sic), that I shall post >some extracts from it in a later message. Well, this is the later message. As I said, this appears to be a study guide, but what grips me is the intuition of unity and connectedness, coming as it does from a Catholic scientist/priest/mystic. Beginning of quote ------------------------------------------------------- 1.Quotes from "The Activation of Energy" by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin Keith: WOW! Psychogenesis seems to be presently a coined word with no definite definition. Quick, RIchard, if I were you I would copyright and trademark it and go on a tour teaching psychogenesis in ten easy lessons ;) As used by some, it seems to have a lot in common with Piaget's ideas from developmental psychology whre a child begins to have ability to learn certain type of things - concrete reasoning vs abstract - only after a certain stage of development in the brain takes place. Kohlberg talks about moral development. Very young Children think you shouldn't still cookies because you will get punished. Older children think you shouldn't still cookies because Momma and Daddy say it is bad and they know everything. Teenagers think stealing cookies is especially fun, because you aren' supposed too. Adults seem to realize that you can be punished, but stealing a cookie now and then is OK if someone;'s life depended on it and it didn't really hurt anybody. Really developed people like Gandhi take the more developed notion that man does not live by cookies alone etc, but hey, the WHOLE WORLD really likes cookies, so share your cookies!!! :) I think psychogeneis seems to in the hardware of the brain. We will learn to walk and talk at a certian age, because before that the body and brain is not ready. Other say I can't walk and talk because my mother didn't love me. Others say I can know the secrets of the cosmos, but emptying my mind. Thanks for the web search. This psychogenesis thing is only a beginning in my mind! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Sep 96 09:43:03 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to Alan Message-ID: <960909134302_74024.3352_BHT170-1@CompuServe.COM> In message <960907035944_74024.3352_BHT247-2@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I mean if I were a >Monad, I guess I wouldn't want a tired stressed-out dirty body to unite with. We monads never do ... Alan :-) --------- Keith: What is the well dressed monad wearing this round? The latest in Atma-Buddhi is new for the season of this cycle. They are to die for! But theses old-fashioned desires are killing me. And we are definitely throwing out those tired old desire and kama-manas body suits . But your basic higher astral is always nice! You can wear it anywhere! Not-much-today Keith Pri e From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:26:52 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <960909192652_197893747@emout14.mail.aol.com> Richard Ihle writes>> >>Secondly, modern dietary or other hormonal-affecting aberrations may have >>screwed up the significance of precise ages altogether. I have read that >>around age 14 used to be a quite common time for the onset of menses; now, >>one hears about even 8- and 9-year old girls getting their periods. I have >>no idea what is going on, but it certainly diminishes any predictive value of >>the Doctrine of Seven-Year Cycles based on strict age-related considerations. Alan Bain writes> >One *hears* about these things more often now, that's all. Cases of >what is medically described as Precocious Puberty have been known for >centuries. Sooo ... nothing unusual is going on. RI> Thanks goes to Alan for catching me in some fuzzy thinking. Not only is what he says above quite plausible, but upon reflection, I also don't see why I previously thought that the sequential unfoldment of new psychogenetic possibilities would necessarily have something to do with physical maturation (e.g., when individuals go through puberty) at all. Certainly, I have run into many girls who were physically mature but yet psychologically still little girls like others of their cycle. Maybe the specific ages delineated by the "Doctrine of the Seven-Year Cycles" are more reliable than I am usually willing to aver. At least I should probably follow my own advice about not confusing physical and/or cognitive maturation with "psychomaturation"--which, after all, is only concerned with the ~I am~ (specifically, the sequence in which potential egoic delusions become available to it) and not with the developing attributes of its physical and mental "vehicles." I think my confidence level about the specific age thresholds could be improved quite a bit if someone more knowledgeable in astrology than I am could suggest some planetary or other "triggering feature" which might operate according to a regular seven-year pattern. (Know of anything, Ann?) Anyway, thanks again to Alan. I hereby authorize anyone who may wish to use me in the future as his or her Indefectible Source for Master-derived ~T~heosophy to destroy the entire incriminating "puberty paragraph" I wrote previously. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Sep 96 20:28:10 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Acknowledging Our Link to the Monad-Self-Silence Message-ID: <960910002810_72723.2375_FHP78-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >The monand becomes the pristine, untouchable spiritual force which radiates the >whole number system and manifestation without being effected by it. . . Consider the possibility that it radiates for the purpose of being effected. Though it is detached, it still gains somethings from the action - wisdom, knowledge, relief of monand boredom. When a writer creates charcters, when a soul creates personalities, it is for a purpose and an experience that effects the creator. So the monand may be reaching out, like one of those Egyptian pictures that show the solar disk with rays ending in hands, into the world manifestation, for a reason and/or experience. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 00:51:07 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Lives of Alcyone Message-ID: <960910045106_74024.3352_BHT244-4@CompuServe.COM> I came across the two volume LIVES of ALCYONE. I don't think it will be reissued any time soon. It gives detailed accounts of how a cast of characters with star names meet again and again, life after life. The major players are AB, CWL and Krishnimurti nee Alcyone. I must admit I am more open to this sort of thing than I once was. It looks like really great historial fiction, in a kind of Barbara Cartland way with a little curry sauce poured on an main course of spiritual evolution of a Master.. Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:05:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN (fwd) Message-ID: Following is an interesting message some who are not on roots may not have seen. > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:58:47 -0400 > From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> > Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN that he had twisted things I had said to him in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me into discussion, got some things he thought he could use against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. At some point, he said he had not wanted to make any public stand on the book, but circumstances had obliged him to. "Circumstances" to me means Radha and the ES. So as long as Algeo is in charge, I'm outta here. I could possibly > get a scholarshop to Krotona this fall or winter. If you could too, we could > meet in Krotona. I'm the last person on earth they'd give one to. Keith: Really interesting. I thought there was a lot of protecting the organization as opposed to getting to the real truth and moving theosophy forward into the 2000. I have heard so really bad reports about ALgeo too. He is supposed to have muttered something about the lodges being absolutely worthless (to him) except for attempts to raid them for legacy booty etc. Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:15:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Lives of Alcyone Message-ID: I have always enjoyed reading the book. It is a very interesting book to read, no matter what one believes about its authenticity. MK Ramadoss On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Keith Price wrote: > I came across the two volume LIVES of ALCYONE. I don't think it will be > reissued any time soon. It gives detailed accounts of how a cast of characters > with star names meet again and again, life after life. The major players are > AB, CWL and Krishnimurti nee Alcyone. I must admit I am more open to this > sort of thing than I once was. It looks like really great historial fiction, > in a kind of Barbara Cartland way with a little curry sauce poured on an main > course of spiritual evolution of a Master.. > > Namasate > Keith Price > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 08:46:20 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Algeo the Capricorn? Message-ID: <960910124619_72723.2375_FHP30-1@CompuServe.COM> >Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN > that he had twisted things I had said to him >in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In >fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me >into discussion, got some things he thought he could use >against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then >misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. I know I'm thrusting myself into the fray here, but for one, John Algeo's Sun is in Scorpio. His natal info was once printed in the TSA, but that copy, two years old, has been discarded. Though I have had little personal contact with Algeo, I found him charming and gracious. But then, I've never been in a political battle with him. Frankly, I don't envy his position. He's caught between the International Society, which appears to me to be rather conservative, the board of directors and the ES. On the other hand, he's also confronted by the dwindling membership and continuing coverage and uncoverage from the Internet community. The pressure is on in ways that have never challenged any TSA president before. I'm sure there are days when he'd rather be back in Georgia sipping a mint julep. This is not plug (or ever had been) for Adyar TS, the boys of TSA, or anything else. It is a plea for even-handedness, lest this list start to become The Theosophical Enquirer, full of innuendoes and rumors that no one can back up. I would rather see solid discussion of the political issues than back-stabbing of individuals. TSA and the membership has valid political issues to thrash out, especially concerning the study groups and lodges. Tossing stuff at the individuals involved, whether it be mud, tomatoes or whatever your favorite throwing media, will only result in you getting it on yourself. Now I'm going to shut up. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:09:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Algeo the Capricorn? Message-ID: Ann: Thanks for the nice message. I do not know the actual facts. But I am confident that Truth with Triumph ultimately. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > >Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN > > > that he had twisted things I had said to him > >in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In > >fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me > >into discussion, got some things he thought he could use > >against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then > >misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. > > I know I'm thrusting myself into the fray here, but for one, John Algeo's Sun is > in Scorpio. His natal info was once printed in the TSA, but that copy, two > years old, has been discarded. > > Though I have had little personal contact with Algeo, I found him charming and > gracious. But then, I've never been in a political battle with him. Frankly, I > don't envy his position. He's caught between the International Society, which > appears to me to be rather conservative, the board of directors and the ES. On > the other hand, he's also confronted by the dwindling membership and continuing > coverage and uncoverage from the Internet community. The pressure is on in ways > that have never challenged any TSA president before. I'm sure there are days > when he'd rather be back in Georgia sipping a mint julep. > > This is not plug (or ever had been) for Adyar TS, the boys of TSA, or anything > else. It is a plea for even-handedness, lest this list start to become The > Theosophical Enquirer, full of innuendoes and rumors that no one can back up. > I would rather see solid discussion of the political issues than back-stabbing > of individuals. > > TSA and the membership has valid political issues to thrash out, especially > concerning the study groups and lodges. Tossing stuff at the individuals > involved, whether it be mud, tomatoes or whatever your favorite throwing media, > will only result in you getting it on yourself. > > Now I'm going to shut up. > > -Ann E. Bermingham > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: References needed Message-ID: I would appreciate receiving--either via Theos-L or directly to my email address--references to any material on the following subjects: 1. Senzar; 2. Books of Kiu-Te, Old Commentary, etc. (except for David Reigle's book). Thanks, Max From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:17:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Psychosophy Home Page Message-ID: <3235B0A4.128D@earthlink.net> Hello, Psychosophy home page is http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html Love, P -- *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 00:31:17 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN Message-ID: <960910043117_74024.3352_BHT244-2@CompuServe.COM> that he had twisted things I had said to him in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me into discussion, got some things he thought he could use against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. At some point, he said he had not wanted to make any public stand on the book, but circumstances had obliged him to. "Circumstances" to me means Radha and the ES. So as long as Algeo is in charge, I'm outta here. I could possibly > get a scholarshop to Krotona this fall or winter. If you could too, we could > meet in Krotona. I'm the last person on earth they'd give one to. Keith: Really interesting. I thought there was a lot of protecting the organization as opposed to getting to the real truth and moving theosophy forward into the 2000. I have heard so really bad reports about ALgeo too. He is supposed to have muttered something about the lodges being absolutely worthless (to him) except for attempts to raid them for legacy booty etc. Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 00:41:36 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Karma will tell Message-ID: <960910044136_74024.3352_BHT244-3@CompuServe.COM> As for spiritualized eroticism, yes, that's something I never experienced and have an interest in. Don't know at this point if we'll meet at all and if so anytime soon-- and I will start looking to date locally fairly soon. The future is mysterious though, and who knows? Your "type" is generally appealing to me. With our compatibility, we can at least be sounding boards for each other, since we seem to have so many common interests and problems. What's your longest-lasting relationship to date? Keith; Yes, we are adults and it would be silly to put alot of expectations based on e-mail pen pals. I had a really bad experince where I flew to meet someone who seemed like Mr. Right on a chat line (900 numbers). It was less than a disaster if you can imagine. Relationships I have come to believe are fated in some way. The people we are attracted to and attract to us are probably past life relationships or represent past life issues in some way. We may only have an intellectual rapport, but that is OK. Today I scanned two pictures of myself. I want to upload them to compuserve which has a big gay board called PRIDE (againg just for fun really). I learned how to scan which I had never done before. I am really getting into computers and think I want to use them in some "spiritual way" Patrick Allesandra on theos-l is here in Houston and does so-called esoteric computer astrology based on Alice Bailey's work which is damn near insane and totally non-sytematic. However her LABOR OF HERCULES is quite good. Maybe Dwaj Kul or the TIBETAN was having a bad year when he channed ES. ASTROLOGY :) HIs computer chart is only so-so in my opinion. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:53:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: ALGEO the CAPRICORN Message-ID: Hi It appears Keith was responding to a message posted by someone. I may have missed it. Can someone repost it please. M K Ramadoss On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Keith Price wrote: > that he had twisted things I had said to him > in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In > fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me > into discussion, got some things he thought he could use > against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then > misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. At some > point, he said he had not wanted to make any public stand on > the book, but circumstances had obliged him to. > "Circumstances" to me means Radha and the ES. So as long as > Algeo is in charge, I'm outta here. > > I could possibly > > get a scholarshop to Krotona this fall or winter. If you could too, we could > > meet in Krotona. > > I'm the last person on earth they'd give one to. > > Keith: > > Really interesting. I thought there was a lot of protecting the organization as > opposed to getting to the real truth and moving theosophy forward into the 2000. > I have heard so really bad reports about ALgeo too. He is supposed to have > muttered something about the lodges being absolutely worthless (to him) except > for attempts to raid them for legacy booty etc. > > Keith > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:09:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: ALGEO the CAPRICORN Message-ID: What is the book that is referenced here? What was the stand that is referenced here? Can the original poster elaborate? Sorry to see anyone leaving the TSA just because of one person. Personalities come and go. But TS stays. Is it not that one of the Adepts said be loyal to the ideal rather than a person? MK Ramadoss On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Keith Price wrote: > that he had twisted things I had said to him > in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In > fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me > into discussion, got some things he thought he could use > against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then > misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. At some > point, he said he had not wanted to make any public stand on > the book, but circumstances had obliged him to. > "Circumstances" to me means Radha and the ES. So as long as > Algeo is in charge, I'm outta here. > > I could possibly > > get a scholarshop to Krotona this fall or winter. If you could too, we could > > meet in Krotona. > > I'm the last person on earth they'd give one to. > > Keith: > > Really interesting. I thought there was a lot of protecting the organization as > opposed to getting to the real truth and moving theosophy forward into the 2000. > I have heard so really bad reports about ALgeo too. He is supposed to have > muttered something about the lodges being absolutely worthless (to him) except > for attempts to raid them for legacy booty etc. > > Keith > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 09:37:19 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <960910133719_72723.2375_FHP36-1@CompuServe.COM> Richard Ihle >I think my confidence level about the specific age thresholds could be >improved quite a bit if someone more knowledgeable in astrology than I am >could suggest some planetary or other "triggering feature" which might >operate according to a regular seven-year pattern. (Know of anything, Ann?) My first thought is that every individual may have the seven-year cycle as a basic human template, but then superimposed over that is their own karmic storyline. Their personal transits and progressions may override that basic template. Some Uranian transit may have you hit by lightening at age seven, possibly cutting off the rest of the cycle. But if you survive with everything intact, including your memories of the other side, you may possess mystical tendencies at an early age. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:17:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Psychosophy Home Page Message-ID: <3235B0A4.128D@earthlink.net> Hello, Psychosophy home page is http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html Love, P -- *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 19:04:50 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: ALgeo a Capricorn - not a public post, please delete Message-ID: <960910230450_74024.3352_BHT78-5@CompuServe.COM> I am sorry if anyone is offended by my mistake regarding sending a confidental private e-mail to theos-l by mistake. I have a sensitivity option of my compuserve e-mail that I could have marked private and this I hope would have thrown it off the listserver and it would have not been posted. I have never used the private mail sensitivity option. This could be a very hard lesson about mis-directed e-mail. I retract everything I should have not said as it was half-remembered hearsay that was probably third hand at least and now fourth. I know I didn't and couldn't hurt John Algeo by such thoughless remarks (I am sure many will only shake their head and say; "just consider the source!) I was just letting off steam, the way people say: Yeah, that President Clinton is a real bum, did you see what he did to so and so. Leaders get this stuff all the time. I hurt only myself. I hope people will totally ignore it! Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 19:23:24 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Karma can Kill (transform) - I don't have to Message-ID: <960910232324_74024.3352_BHT166-1@CompuServe.COM> Whenever I gossip, the thought form of evil usally recoils on me. I guess it is a type of black magic. It seems I am addicted to gossip. As I try to control one addiction another arises. I have decided to face my karma rather than run (which has been my modus operandi for several life time I would conjecture). HPB said that it is absolutely essential to kill our selfhish desires like jealousy and ambition before you ask to hear the VOICE OF THE SILENCE. I have become addicted to posting on theos-roots. I guess I want a couple of more posts before, I abstain. I have a premonition of my death (based on many factors). It has brought out the best in, me and the very, very worst. . I hope that this death is the killing of my character defects and the transformation into a better human being, but if it is a bodily death, I know that there is more and I can work on these issues in another lifetime or loka. I was in an auto accident last year and this has set into process deep acceptance of the laws of Karma and the desire to identify with the higher vehicles at the time of death and not with my wrecked van and lower kama-manas. Like the person in the cartoons who senses the end is near, it is funny to others because they sense he is the one in trouble,it is only HIS end that is near. I think that for most people karma does kill out their selfishness and desires, but very slowly, unconsciously over many lifetimes. HPB suggests that we can do it consciously. I am trying to find out for myself. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 19:39:27 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Lives of Capricorn - To tell the truth, it is all a complete fantasy Message-ID: <960910233926_74024.3352_BHT166-2@CompuServe.COM> Reading the LIVES OF ALCYONE by Annie Bessant and C.W. Leadbetter is a spiritual experience and a literay one too, but for me of a very strange thing. The leaves of the pages literally break in my hand, as I turn the pages. The past is very close in these odd stories and then the yellowed pages tear like fall leaves as if I will be the last to ever read them. Their is a great effor to give the whole thing credibility by tracing the family of theosophists chosen by the Manu to begin the sixth root race. Their is chart after chart showing the family tree. The descendants are always the same people, playing different roles in different lifetime. They are give astrological code names like Alcyone - Krishnamurti, Herakles - Bessant and Pallas - Plato. her and provide for the advance of evolution life after life. I feel that I could be the reincarnation of a low rent less evolved CWL (his lower vehicles remain, his higher ones went to another globe, I suppose). A whole drama unfolds before my eyes. Yes I can see it dimly........... In this life, the family incarnated in a strange land called Novus Ordo Seculorum, the land of the eye over the pyramid. Capricorn, in this life, became head of the family and ruler of the clan. Their were strange machines familiar to the Atlanteans that allowed letters to be percipated out of space - miraculously. A lowly servant Hippolyta ( a male, they change sexes regularly from life to life) mailed a letter to Chronos, the family historian regarding a false whispers of Capricorn's plan to disinherit the widespread families on many continents and gather their treasure in one place. The message was misdiredted by Mercury who wrote the hand writing in the waves of Aguarius' In- Urn- NET which flowed unchecked to all the clan on all the continents for all to see. Hippoyta was so distressed she ran out into the snow, she saw Herakles returning from his Labor in Scorpio. He smiled broadly and held out his hefty club in one hand and the jewel from the Hydra's head in the other. Chronos looked distressed and stood at the door motionless. HIpployta suddenly saw Herakles and forgot her confusion. She did not realize that she was practically unclothed in a soiled toga. She forgot the letter blown to the four winds. She forgot Capricorn, she forgot Chronos, and ran toward Herakles. She did not see a crack in the snow. She fell in the water. Herakles tried to hand her a club. She grasped at it, but froze in the magically cold water. The ice was like glass broken from a mirror. She became perfectly solid as a marble statue. Her face cracked in the middle like broken stone as she sank into the icey lake. Her faced grimaced like the Gorgon as she realized her face would remain in two parts for all eternity. Herkles placed the jewel of Hydra in her hand as she sank. The crack across her face resealed and her reformed expression was one of calm and peace. Yes, these stories are a dime a dozen lifetimes and to tell the truth, a complete illusion. I have trully said too much. I will be silent and only listen.. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 20:48:45 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <960911004845_72723.2375_FHP31-1@CompuServe.COM> Here's some added information regarding the seven-year cycles of human life. -Ann E. Bermingham --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- THE RAYS AND THE SEVEN-YEAR CYCLES (from Transpersonal Astrology by Errol Weiner, pgs. 67-69) Each Ray has special rulership in its particular seven-year cycle. The physical body Ray governs the first seven-year cycle (birth-7; the Aries cycle), for this is when consciousness is anchoring itself into physical form. This Ray embodies itself in the child from 4-7 years of age, for this when the Soul appropriates the physical body. From 7-14 (the Taurian cycle) the emotional 'desire' Ray governs, and this Ray anchors itself between 11 and 14 at the time of the puberty cycle. This is the time when the soul appropriates the emotional body, which is why it is such a difficult cycle. The mental Ray govern from 12-21 (the Gemini cycle) and onwards to 24, for it is only between 21 and 24 that the soul appropriates the lower mental body. Gemini is the sign ruling lower education or the development of the lower rational mind. From 21-28 (the Cancer cycle) these three Rays synthesize and the overall personality Ray begins to emerge. By the time one turns 28 these three Rays/bodies should be relatively integrated. From 28-35 (the Leo cycle) the personality Ray becomes the dominating factor. From 32-35 is when this Ray anchors itself. This Leo cycle also witnesses the emergence of the soul Ray, and the major conflict in this cycle is the polarity clash between the Ray of the lower self and the higher self. One seeks recognition for the sellf and the other seeks to serve the greater self. The soul Ray does not emerge unless one is intent on individualizing oneself. The personality and soul Rays begin to integrate between 35 and 42, during the Virgo cycle. This is an extremely difficult and conflict-ridden cycle, for the initial process of integrating these two Rays, (especially if they are in conflict) is one of battle and 'the labor of birth'. Both rulers of Virgo, namely the Moon and Mercury, are 4th Ray planets. This seven-year cycle includes: -the return of the Moon's Nodes (37-38) -the Uranus opposition to natal Uranus(39-41) -the Pluto square to natal Pluto (40-42) -the Neptune square to natal Neptune (41-43) . . . The Libra cycle (42-49) is a rest and balancing cycle between the battleground of Virgo and Scorpio (49-56). This does not make the Libra cycle one of ease and peace, but it does create opportunity for balance, harmony and peace between the dualities. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:13:53 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Psychogenesis and the VOS Message-ID: <960910231352_282266881@emout02.mail.aol.com> Ann writes> >My first thought is that every individual may have the seven-year cycle as a >basic human template, but then superimposed over that is their own karmic >storyline. Their personal transits and progressions may override that basic >template. > >Some Uranian transit may have you hit by lightening at age seven, possibly >cutting off the rest of the cycle. But if you survive with everything >intact, including your memories of the other side, you may possess mystical >tendencies at an early age. Richard Ihle writes> Thank you, Ann, for the above; I agree with it. I also appreciate receiving the highly interesting material about the "Rays" in your later post. I have always wished that I had a better background in astrology. Nine-tenths may or may not be b.s.; nevertheless, for me, at least, there always seems to be that inexplicable one-tenth which rings ~so~ true that sometimes I think I am being very foolish by not devoting ~much~ more time to its study. While it could be true that many astrologers are remiss, perhaps, by overlooking the part an individual's particular Degree of Self-Awareness ("age of the soul") may play in the mitigation of "cosmo-biological events," it could also be true that many individuals may keep moving in disappointment from one Spiritual practice to another to another because they do not fully appreciate the range and power of the myriad of ever-changing "invisible influences" they are up against--and which astrology could suggest to them. Thanks again. Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:19:25 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Lives of Alcyone Message-ID: <960910191924_520001052@emout13.mail.aol.com> Keith, The real fun part is trying to figure out which theosophists are the different characters. I, of course, was Scorpio. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:19:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Algeo the Capricorn? Message-ID: <960910191932_520001313@emout18.mail.aol.com> I'M STAYING OUT OF THIS!!!! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 10 Sep 96 20:52:26 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: For Doss: Thanks Message-ID: <960911005225_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM> Doss: Thanks for your post about Krishnamurti. I found it very enlightening, to say the least, and have saved it to my hard disk for future reference. Namaste - Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:18:19 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: References needed Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960911091819.006a46e4@imagiware.com> >I would appreciate receiving--either via Theos-L or directly to my email >address--references to any material on the following subjects: > >1. Senzar; > >2. Books of Kiu-Te, Old Commentary, etc. (except for David Reigle's book). Max: The only other book that I'm aware of is "SENZAR: The Mystery of the Mystery Language" by John Algeo, Theosophical History Centre, London, 1988. (It's a 32-page booklet, published by Theosophical History Magazine. Jerry Hejka-Ekins would probably have their latest address and information on getting a copy of the booklet.) -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:55:26 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Lives of Alcyone Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960911035526.006b9b10@whanganui.ac.nz> At 01:58 AM 10/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >I came across the two volume LIVES of ALCYONE. I don't think it will be >reissued any time soon. It gives detailed accounts of how a cast of characters >with star names meet again and again, life after life. The major players are >AB, CWL and Krishnimurti nee Alcyone. I must admit I am more open to this >sort of thing than I once was. It looks like really great historial fiction, >in a kind of Barbara Cartland way with a little curry sauce poured on an main >course of spiritual evolution of a Master.. > >Namasate >Keith Price > I thought it was kinda interesting when I read it a while ago. Then recently I read a bit from Ernest Wood who was CWL's secretary at the time these were written and as I recall it, he got sort of disillusioned with it all as he witnessed CWL amending his story to fit in new people who had come into his circle of friends. I think Ernest also decided to put it in the fictional area. > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:18:08 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: For Doss: Thanks Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960911041808.006c93dc@whanganui.ac.nz> At 08:56 PM 10/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Doss: > >Thanks for your post about Krishnamurti. I found it very enlightening, to say >the least, and have saved it to my hard disk for future reference. > >Namaste > >- Ann E. Bermingham > Yes thanks, ditto from me too. I have been so busy with many others that I have not read much of Krishnamurti but one day soon I shal remedy that. > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:47:09 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Angels & Communication Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960912045925.1d5721dc@iprolink.co.nz> I can see a whole bundle of potential lines of discussion radiating out from JRC's piece, but will just pick out a couple: >.. let me say a short little bit >about the "diagnosticians" I mentioned. They are relatively small >angelic currents that appear to be somewhat new and experimental >branches of a much larger current ..... In fact, >I once saw them re-joining the larger current after they did a >piece of work for me, and I believe they were "reporting their >results" ... which in angelic terms means merging the awareness >they had gathered with that of the larger current. In thinking about the idea of devas of nature, I have sometimes wondered what is supposed to happen to them if, for instance, a valley were indundated with water due to the construction of a major dam. (BTW, I consider the words "deva" and "angel" to have similar underlying meanings despite the obvious cultural differences of origin.) The picture portrayed by JRC would suggest that rather than be faced with extinction or at least a withdrawal to "higher" planes, the devas related to the valley could in fact merge back into some wider, parent stream of consciousness. >When I'm ready to do the processing, one of two things can be done >with this bundle: It can either be processed through the interfaces >that turn inner awareness into conscious level pictures (very >much like remembering a person from my past), or I can enter the >bundle with my point of identification ..... and, >(hope this makes sense) sort of look out at the world *through* the >energy-system of the person/system >that was observed. The first delivers an awareness similar to >what results from a visit to the person and several >conversations. The second delivers an awareness similar to having >actually incarnated, for a fraction of a moment, *within* the >person's energy-system. It would be extremely interesting to have more information like this on the processes going on during clairvoyance etc. In helping Geoffrey Hodson with some of his investigations into atoms, music and devas, it was clear that there was a major condensation of the "primary" information to just get it into his brain, then another transformation and limitation to get it into words. It is one of my ardent hopes that there will arise a small but growing number of people who have what it takes to train for this kind of work, and carry science to new and unimagined heights. There are a few already. Who is willing? >(and the Point of >Identification is something that will take an entire essay ... as >it's control and use is one of the cores of day to day work in >the inner worlds) Richard, are you listening? Doesn't this have a whole lot to do with psychogenesis and temporary ego formations? And (Keith) the VOS, re killing out desire? Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:24:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Angels & Communication Message-ID: Hi Did you have the good fortune of working with Geoffrey Hodson? He is one of the few true occultists who had done a lot of work and is held in very high esteem by TS members all over the world. If you had worked with him, it would be very invaluable to write down your experiences/observations. Just a thought. MK Ramadoss On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Murray Stentiford wrote: > I can see a whole bundle of potential lines of discussion radiating out from > JRC's piece, but will just pick out a couple: > > >.. let me say a short little bit > >about the "diagnosticians" I mentioned. They are relatively small > >angelic currents that appear to be somewhat new and experimental > >branches of a much larger current ..... In fact, > >I once saw them re-joining the larger current after they did a > >piece of work for me, and I believe they were "reporting their > >results" ... which in angelic terms means merging the awareness > >they had gathered with that of the larger current. > > In thinking about the idea of devas of nature, I have sometimes wondered > what is supposed to happen to them if, for instance, a valley were > indundated with water due to the construction of a major dam. (BTW, I > consider the words "deva" and "angel" to have similar underlying meanings > despite the obvious cultural differences of origin.) > > The picture portrayed by JRC would suggest that rather than be faced with > extinction or at least a withdrawal to "higher" planes, the devas related to > the valley could in fact merge back into some wider, parent stream of > consciousness. > > > >When I'm ready to do the processing, one of two things can be done > >with this bundle: It can either be processed through the interfaces > >that turn inner awareness into conscious level pictures (very > >much like remembering a person from my past), or I can enter the > >bundle with my point of identification ..... and, > >(hope this makes sense) sort of look out at the world *through* the > >energy-system of the person/system > >that was observed. The first delivers an awareness similar to > >what results from a visit to the person and several > >conversations. The second delivers an awareness similar to having > >actually incarnated, for a fraction of a moment, *within* the > >person's energy-system. > > It would be extremely interesting to have more information like this on the > processes going on during clairvoyance etc. In helping Geoffrey Hodson with > some of his investigations into atoms, music and devas, it was clear that > there was a major condensation of the "primary" information to just get it > into his brain, then another transformation and limitation to get it into words. > > It is one of my ardent hopes that there will arise a small but growing > number of people who have what it takes to train for this kind of work, and > carry science to new and unimagined heights. There are a few already. Who is > willing? > > > >(and the Point of > >Identification is something that will take an entire essay ... as > >it's control and use is one of the cores of day to day work in > >the inner worlds) > > Richard, are you listening? Doesn't this have a whole lot to do with > psychogenesis and temporary ego formations? And (Keith) the VOS, re killing > out desire? > > Murray > Member TI and the TS in NZ > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:31 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Ann re Algeo Message-ID: <199609111440.KAA03921@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Ann, I second the motion, even though I don't agree with Wheaton's present politcs. Liesel >Date: 10 Sep 96 08:46:20 EDT >From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> >To: theos-l >Subject: Re: Algeo the Capricorn? >Message-ID: <960910124619_72723.2375_FHP30-1@CompuServe.COM> > >>Subject: ALGEO the CAPRICORN > >> that he had twisted things I had said to him >>in good faith, thinking he was interested in dialogue. In >>fact, he knew all along that he intended to attack me, lured me >>into discussion, got some things he thought he could use >>against me, then got nasty and cut off communication, and then >>misused and twisted things I had told him trustingly. > >I know I'm thrusting myself into the fray here, but for one, John Algeo's Sun is >in Scorpio. His natal info was once printed in the TSA, but that copy, two >years old, has been discarded. > >Though I have had little personal contact with Algeo, I found him charming and >gracious. But then, I've never been in a political battle with him. Frankly, I >don't envy his position. He's caught between the International Society, which >appears to me to be rather conservative, the board of directors and the ES. On >the other hand, he's also confronted by the dwindling membership and continuing >coverage and uncoverage from the Internet community. The pressure is on in ways >that have never challenged any TSA president before. I'm sure there are days >when he'd rather be back in Georgia sipping a mint julep. > >This is not plug (or ever had been) for Adyar TS, the boys of TSA, or anything >else. It is a plea for even-handedness, lest this list start to become The >Theosophical Enquirer, full of innuendoes and rumors that no one can back up. >I would rather see solid discussion of the political issues than back-stabbing >of individuals. > >TSA and the membership has valid political issues to thrash out, especially >concerning the study groups and lodges. Tossing stuff at the individuals >involved, whether it be mud, tomatoes or whatever your favorite throwing media, >will only result in you getting it on yourself. > >Now I'm going to shut up. > >-Ann E. Bermingham > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:43:38 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Angels & Communication Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960911194338.006b8fac@whanganui.ac.nz> At 08:51 AM 11/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Hi >Did you have the good fortune of working with Geoffrey Hodson? He is one >of the few true occultists who had done a lot of work and is held in very >high esteem by TS members all over the world. If you had worked with him, >it would be very invaluable to write down your experiences/observations. >Just a thought. > >MK Ramadoss > I found this lovely little quote from G Hodson in one of Vitvans books. FOOD FOR THOUGHT ..As a result of this and other attempts to understand the processes of growth, I have come to the following conclusions: In the heart of every seed is a living centre, which contains the stored-up results of previous seasons as a vibratory possibility. Apparently the awakening, or stirring of the life in due season produces sound. This sound is heard throughout the elemental regions where the builders answer the call to labour. Every type of growth, whether of stem, shoot, leaf or flower appears to have its own note, or call, to which the appropriate nature-spirit 'builder' must respond. This sound also has a form-producing activity, and is, probably, the means by which the archetypal form is translated to the etheric level where it becomes the etheric mould. Some of the results of this vibration appear to be: (1) To separate and insulate a portion of the atmosphere round the seed. (2) To call the builders, who, entering the specialized sphere, are enabled to materialise on the sub-plane in which they have to work. (3) To set the matter within the sphere vibrating, at the required rate, and to specialise it, in readiness for the work of the builders. (4) Probably also to materialise the archetypal form into an etheric mould. New vibrations are introduced, as leaf, shoot, stem and flower are to be built, so that the corresponding free matter is affected, and the corresponding builder is called and set to work on the appropriate matter. The vibration, or sound, appears to radiate, not only from the life centre, from which it first springs in due season, but also from every embryo cell. The corresponding builder absorbs the appropriate matter, i.e., that which is responding to the same vibration as himself and the cell he is building, and transforms it by association with himself into a suitable condition; he changes it from free to specialised material and discharges it, atom by atom, to the cell from which the sound is being uttered, building it into the etheric model. The vibrating cell acts as a magnet and draws the newly arrived material to its appropriate position, so that the cell is gradually enlarged until it reaches its limit of possible expansion; it then divides, and a new cell is gradually built up by a repetition of the process. While the material is in close association with the builder, it is not only specialised to suit the requirements of the cell, but it is given the light vibration to which the builder naturally responds, i.e., it is coloured. In the early stages, when only the green shoot is appearing, the builders of a certain order are employed; tiny etheric creatures, appearing as points of light. Leaf and stem seem to be the field of their labours. Each change in structure and colour calls for another set of builders. When the flower-stem and flower are to be built, a new set of builders arrives on the scene. Apparently these are more advanced, for, on their arrival, the whole process of growth is quickened and stimulated. They work in precisely the same way, and, as soon as coloration is to begin, the fairies proper appear and implant their special rate of vibration, changing the white and green into the particular colour corresponding to the note which called them and by which they work. These last are sufficiently advanced to be fully aware of their task and to find great pleasure in its joyous performance, and they take immense pride in the growing 'child' under their care. They remain in close attendance, as each new petal and bud opens, until the structure is complete and the task of the builders is finished. They are conscious and appreciative of the admiration of human beings for their work; but, on our approach they seem to plead that the flower shall not be injured. If it is cut they will follow it into the room and stay with it for some time. When the completely flowered condition is reached the full chord is sounding forth, and, could we but hear it, our gardens would have an additional joy. We do not, however, hear that chord, though it may be that, in some cases, we contact it as a scent. We may smell the sound! As the life force is withdrawn, the notes die down, and a reversal takes place. Processes of great intricacy appear to begin, as, bereft of the controlling and guiding force, the process of decay sets in. It is worthy of note that, in the instinctive labour of absorption and discharge, the builders, who are said to be on the same line of evolution as the bees, perform a function closely analogous to theirs when they travel abroad for honey and then convey and discharge it into the cells of the honeycomb. From the Introduction to Fairies at Work and at Play Observed by Geoffrey Hodson Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:04:29 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Communication Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960911200429.006ac74c@whanganui.ac.nz> At 07:18 PM 08/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >A comment on the discussion about communication: > >As a medium of social exchange we do have to share some sort of >agreement in time, as to what words mean, in order to be able to >understand each other even a little. That "agreement" can make words >appear opaque as it is largely taken for granted and often >unconfirmed. It's a root cause of many of our misunderstandings. >Wouldn't you agree? > >But words are not as opaque as they appear. Take a simple word like >"love". We encounter it at a young age and with it a certain meaning >(a gift from our social/cultural heritage). As we progress in our >lives and gain experience, that little word and the simple glyph that >represents it can often have the bottom fall out and take on extended >meanings of both nuanced and profound significance. This ability for >open endedness and expansion, which can happen for us personally each >time we have a new experience, is one of the most wonderful reflectors >of our growth. > >It follows that mindful use of language via the spoken and written >word can be in itself a great gift of service. > >A deep meditation on the word "I", for instance, and the silence that >proceeds it, can be of unestimable value. Clues and hints abound in >the literature that can help us penetrate to exquisite interior >processes whereby spiritual value can be represented and communicated >by the very thought of who we are. > >Language, whether it be thought, spoken or written, has its origin in >the Logos. Once I may have agreed with the above idea but since taking an interest in General Semantics etc, I would no longer agree that language originates in the Logos. Once we check out from this plane of density then language is not necessary for exchanging meaningful energy. Like JRC's angel communication seems to show, there are many ways of communicating outside the structure of language even before we depart for the higher planes. The Logos may be thought of as issuing pure light which gets stepped down through the planes and the various beings inhabiting them and by the time it gets to us, it has of necessity become much diluted and we have to formulate language to be able to discuss it. Somehow understanding can happen without words but often proves very difficult to translate into language. I have read the idea that we do not really have many thought of our own as most of what we think about is wafted in from the thought world and we find thoughts in our mind and assume we have thought them. Thoughts are attracted magnetically so that like attracts like and that is why we can evolve ideas etc from the general thought world. I am still thinking!!!!! about that idea. > >Peace, > >Mark Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:46:08 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Patanjali and VOS Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960911034608.006975d4@whanganui.ac.nz> At 08:26 AM 09/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Martin writes: >Will all its archaic and difficulties the VOS is a great book-teacher for >ages to come as a roadmap of the Path. >Regarding "The Mind is the Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the >Slayer," >I simply interpreted the work "kill" as "Nirodaha" from the Yoga Sutras of >Patanjali. >He defines Yoga as Chitta Vritti Nirodaha, usually translated as >'restraining' (in VOS as 'kill') >the mental modification. The reason I went to Patanjali is because earlier >in the Voice HPB mentions the word Dharana or "concentration" (more or >less) from the 8 limbs or steps of the Yoga system. >I found Taimni (Science of Yoga) translation and commentaries very useful >on this subject. > >Peace and Harmony to all, > >Martin > >_________________________________________________________________- >Keith: > > >We are studiying VOS at the Houston Lodge also. Chandra Joysti from the Adyar >lodge in India is conducting the meeting over several months. He has given THE >YOGA SUTRAS of PATANJALI written cira 500 A.D. as a possible source for some of >the ideas presented in the VOS. > >I will try to copy some of the aphorisms, if people think it might be helpful >for our discussion. The main idea that struck me was the similarity to Ann's >idea that the VOICE is like a bird that looks down at the lower bird eating a >fruit. The higher bird sees the lower bird with compassion, but is unmoved. > >Patanjali seems to come from a dualistic perspective. The idea is that the >below is bad and the higher is GOOD. We must kill the lower and rise to the >higher. I am not sure this is what theosophy teachers. I tend to personally >believe in non-dualism. That is the higher is the lower, we just are conscious >of it, but can return to non-dualism through meditation. The goal is not to >escape the clutches of evil matter, but disidentify with the dualistic mind that >makes it opposed to the DIVINE UNITY. If you go to the web page with Vitvans writings and have a look at the one called The Natural Order Proccess Vol 2, you will find his explanation of Patanjali. As I understand it, it is non-dual in essence but because we live as if we were seperate from the Divine, the sutras appear as if that is what they seem but it is only a method of explaining to our minds. There is no good or bad in Reality but we live in a dualistic way and sometimes they emphasise this fact to such an extent that they hope we will see the folly of living that way. > >There is this trend in some theosphical writings. Many seem to have the >cosmology of Hinduism, the ethics of Buddhism and the morality of Christianity >in some strange (to me) mixture. > >Namaste >Keith Price > > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:09:43 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Bee's quote of Hodson Message-ID: <199609130217.WAA03441@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Fascinating. Thanks Bee, I saved the whole thing to a disk. It's fascinating. I'd like to put in 2 little side additions 1. as below, so above: The passage "In the heart of every seed is a living center, which contains the stored up results of previous seasons," reminds me of Sishtas, mentioned in the SD. According to Baborkas Sanskrit dictionary Sishtas are "literally remainders: referred to in the SD as the divine mortals who remain behind when the life wave of humanity passes from globe to globe in the Earth-Chain, thus providing the seeds of humanity for the returning monads." 2. Towards the end, it talks about "We may smell the sound". The way that is logical to me is that the smell is caused by certain vibes, and if one creature's sense organs are geared to resonate to the same vibes differently than another, it may well be that one creature smells the vibes which another one hears. lfd ...................................................................... >I found this lovely little quote from G Hodson in one of Vitvans books. > > >FOOD FOR THOUGHT >..As a result of this and other attempts to understand the processes of >growth, I have come to the following conclusions: >In the heart of every seed is a living centre, which contains the stored-up >results of previous seasons as a vibratory possibility. Apparently the >awakening, or stirring of the life in due season produces sound. This sound >is heard throughout the elemental regions where the builders answer the call >to labour. Every type of growth, whether of stem, shoot, leaf or flower >appears to have its own note, or call, to which the appropriate >nature-spirit 'builder' must respond. This sound also has a form-producing >activity, and is, probably, the means by which the archetypal form is >translated to the etheric level where it becomes the etheric mould. >Some of the results of this vibration appear to be: >(1) To separate and insulate a portion of the atmosphere round the seed. >(2) To call the builders, who, entering the specialized sphere, are enabled >to materialise on the sub-plane in which they have to work. >(3) To set the matter within the sphere vibrating, at the required rate, and >to specialise it, in readiness for the work of the builders. >(4) Probably also to materialise the archetypal form into an etheric mould. > >New vibrations are introduced, as leaf, shoot, stem and flower are to be >built, so that the corresponding free matter is affected, and the >corresponding builder is called and set to work on the appropriate matter. >The vibration, or sound, appears to radiate, not only from the life centre, >from which it first springs in due season, but also from every embryo cell. >The corresponding builder absorbs the appropriate matter, i.e., that which >is responding to the same vibration as himself and the cell he is building, >and transforms it by association with himself into a suitable condition; he >changes it from free to specialised material and discharges it, atom by >atom, to the cell from which the sound is being uttered, building it into >the etheric model. The vibrating cell acts as a magnet and draws the newly >arrived material to its appropriate position, so that the cell is gradually >enlarged until it reaches its limit of possible expansion; it then divides, >and a new cell is gradually built up by a repetition of the process. >While the material is in close association with the builder, it is not only >specialised to suit the requirements of the cell, but it is given the light >vibration to which the builder naturally responds, i.e., it is coloured. >In the early stages, when only the green shoot is appearing, the builders of >a certain order are employed; tiny etheric creatures, appearing as points of >light. Leaf and stem seem to be the field of their labours. Each change in >structure and colour calls for another set of builders. >When the flower-stem and flower are to be built, a new set of builders >arrives on the scene. Apparently these are more advanced, for, on their >arrival, the whole process of growth is quickened and stimulated. >They work in precisely the same way, and, as soon as coloration is to begin, >the fairies proper appear and implant their special rate of vibration, >changing the white and green into the particular colour corresponding to the >note which called them and by which they work. >These last are sufficiently advanced to be fully aware of their task and to >find great pleasure in its joyous performance, and they take immense pride >in the growing 'child' under their care. >They remain in close attendance, as each new petal and bud opens, until the >structure is complete and the task of the builders is finished. They are >conscious and appreciative of the admiration of human beings for their work; >but, on our approach they seem to plead that the flower shall not be >injured. If it is cut they will follow it into the room and stay with it for >some time. >When the completely flowered condition is reached the full chord is sounding >forth, and, could we but hear it, our gardens would have an additional joy. >We do not, however, hear that chord, though it may be that, in some cases, >we contact it as a scent. We may smell the sound! >As the life force is withdrawn, the notes die down, and a reversal takes >place. Processes of great intricacy appear to begin, as, bereft of the >controlling and guiding force, the process of decay sets in. >It is worthy of note that, in the instinctive labour of absorption and >discharge, the builders, who are said to be on the same line of evolution as >the bees, perform a function closely analogous to theirs when they travel >abroad for honey and then convey and discharge it into the cells of the >honeycomb. > From the Introduction to > Fairies at Work and at Play > Observed by Geoffrey Hodson > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:01:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Eden & serpent Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >you can't win with such a >fellow ... if he didn't gethca one way, he'd getcha another. > (-:), -JRC That's God for you! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:55:11 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Bee's quote of Hodson Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960913075511.006e27ac@whanganui.ac.nz> At 10:28 PM 12/09/96 -0400, Liesel wrote: >Fascinating. Thanks Bee, I saved the whole thing to a disk. It's fascinating. > >I'd like to put in 2 little side additions >1. as below, so above: The passage "In the heart of every seed is a living >center, which contains the stored up results of previous seasons," reminds >me of Sishtas, mentioned in the SD. According to Baborkas Sanskrit >dictionary Sishtas are "literally remainders: referred to in the SD as the >divine mortals who remain behind when the life wave of humanity passes from >globe to globe in the Earth-Chain, thus providing the seeds of humanity for >the returning monads." I had a great chat on theos-world about Sishtas as I had been reading GdeP and found them a fascinating concept. You will find the Hodson quote on the disk I sent you in the book on Understanding the Psychic Nature. > >2. Towards the end, it talks about "We may smell the sound". The way that is >logical to me is that the smell is caused by certain vibes, and if one >creature's sense organs are geared to resonate to the same vibes differently >than another, it may well be that one creature smells the vibes which >another one hears. Vitvan says that we live in an energy world and that it only appears solid and objective due to our senses being too slow to pick up frequency intervals. In a world like that, it would just mean knowing how to change frequencies within one's 'physical' configuration to smell a noise as both are vibrations to start with. Within that framework it does seem feasable???? Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. A meeting is an event at which the minutes are kept and the hours lost. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:58:37 +0200 From: "Pre-installed User" Subject: Re: Fw: Virus alert! Message-ID: <199609131740.TAA24669@mail.euronet.nl> Bee wrote: >Sorry to be a pest but this has been going around for years. I see reference to it every 3-4months in the newsgroups and the e-mail groups and all responses are to ignore it. This must be about the 6th time I have been warned about the Good Time Virus. Just thought you might like to know. Thanks for your response. With the increasing complexity of browser software (browser, mail ,newsgroups, etc. all integrated) it seems that you never can know what trouble to expect next. There have been serious warnings about security loopholes in Netscape and Internet Explorer, which loopholes have been repaired only partially, it seems. I'm sure we'll see more warnings, including serious ones this time, in the near future. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:03:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Lives of Alcyone Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.32.19960911035526.006b9b10@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >I thought it was kinda interesting when I read it a while ago. Then recently >I read a bit from Ernest Wood who was CWL's secretary at the time these were >written and as I recall it, he got sort of disillusioned with it all as he >witnessed CWL amending his story to fit in new people who had come into his >circle of friends. I think Ernest also decided to put it in the fictional area. So he did - I can repost this material for those interested. ?? Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:29:09 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Scorpio Message-ID: <32389CC5.44D8@worldnet.att.net> >The real fun part is trying to figure out which theosophists are the >different characters. I, of course, was Scorpio. > >Chuck the Heretic Chuck, as it happens, I am a Scorpio this time too. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:40:37 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Direct to Source .. Message-ID: <6Y0aBVAF2KOyEwni@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960908123946_72723.2375_FHP32-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> writes >Why bother with an intermediary when you >could have intimate contact with your very own higher self/soul? My methodology >is to be the hands, eyes and ears of the Soul, manifesting itself on the earth >through my personality. Hear Hear! Amen! Bravo! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:23:34 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Direct to Source .. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960914052334.0069a5b8@imagiware.com> Alan: [writing to Ann] >>Why bother with an intermediary when you >>could have intimate contact with your very own higher self/soul? My methodology >>is to be the hands, eyes and ears of the Soul, manifesting itself on the earth >>through my personality. > >Hear Hear! Amen! Bravo! I'd agree that we certainly cannot have a proxy to do things for us. We can't have someone else raise themselves then give us the fruits of their efforts on a silver platter, without working up any sweat of our own. The Catholic model of requiring a "priest" to understand what God wants and tell us poor souls, unable to find out ourselves, is being supersede by the Protestant model of "knowing God" ourselves. Substitute the words "Master" for "priest" and "spiritual truths" for "God", and we get the theosophical situation. No one can do things for us. But this does not mean that coaches, teachers, and the moral support of fellow students, our sangha, are not invaluable in treading the Path. A good teacher does not give a student pat answers, and expect rote memorization. A good teacher teaches the student to thing for himself, or for herself, and *brings out the innate capabilities in the student*. This is what a bona fide Guru can do, or a Master, and it's really, I think, the polar opposite from the effect of someone like a Catholic Priest, someone simply telling someone things and powerless to inspire their lives nor evoke in them some genuine self exertion and spiritual growth. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:56:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Scorpio Message-ID: <960913195609_522179596@emout16.mail.aol.com> Jerry, I wasn't refering to astrology, but the character in the lives. Scorpio was the fellow who went through his successive incarnations making life difficult for the people Leadbeater liked. Of course, you would have made their lives difficult too. They had real problems with anyone who used their brains. Chuck the Heretic. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 13 Sep 96 20:34:34 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Scorpio Message-ID: <960914003434_72723.2375_FHP31-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >I wasn't refering to astrology, but the character in the lives. Scorpio was >the fellow who went through his successive incarnations making life difficult >for the people Leadbeater liked. Sounds like a trickster type character. Actually, Scorpio reincarnated in the and came back as a disc jockey in the Chicago area (WOPA-FM). He had a radio show, starting in 1965, in which he introduced himself as "Scorpio" and played pop music of the day. In about 68' he switched to psychedelic music till 1971, at which time he began to play classical selection inbetween the psychedelic stuff. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 04:32:02 GMT From: ramadoss@eden.com (M K Ramadoss) Subject: Re: Fellow Lanoo Message-ID: <199609140427.XAA17353@natashya.eden.com> Barbara wrote: Glad to see your post. You have asked a number of questions and it is going to take quite some time to respond to all of them. As a faster way to get the response, I am posting it to a mail list called theos-l. You can subscribe to it (which is free and unmoderated) by sending a e-mail message to listserv@vnet.net with jus the following in the body of the message: subscribe theos-l Barbara You need not put anything in the subject. If you have any difficulty just send a message to listserv@vnet.net with HELP in the body and nothing in the subject. If you still have difficulty, send me a message to ramadoss@eden.com In friendship MK Ramadoss >Hi >On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Tyrone Simmons wrote: >> I to am a member in good standing of this groug, this thought, this >> recognition and understanding of our Being. I will be glad to discuss >> any and all endevours that have worked on behalf of the advancement of >> humanity towards reclaiming It's recognition of It's Divine and splendid >> nature. >> Tyrone >> >> >Great! I just found this newsgroup... >I have some questions. >Oh, first introductions, I am a student of >religions and a mystic by nature. Currently I have been involved in >magickal practise and witcraft with others, as well as numerous other >personal studies. I started in the Catholic church and I like yoga, for >health and for the purposes of uniting with God (in what ever form we can >know diety). And I am scientifically educated. >What I would like to know is what distiguishes a theosophist from any >other type of mystic or occultist? Webster says theosophy is the teaching >about both God and the world based on mystical insight and following >mainly Buddhist and Brahmanic theories esp. pantheistic evolution and >reicarnation. >Are theosophists generally pantheistic, and if so are there certain >god/ddesses they hold most high? Is there a general way theosophists tend >to view God? >Do theosophists lean towards or condone white magick - the practise of >magick performed for the purposes of uniting with God, or do theosophists >consider a magickal practise useful or worthy at all? >In what ways is the theosophist philosophy different than Buddhist >philosophy? >From the post above I get the idea that a theosophist's mission statement >is to work towards the advancement of humanity. Are there other >fundamental theosophical tenets beyond this one that are Buddhist or >mystical in nature? >How does a theosophist regard science? >Just call me curious! >Amber/Barbara From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 01:02:54 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Scorpio Message-ID: <960914010252_308098573@emout19.mail.aol.com> I remember him. I was working in the college radio station at the time and listened to him on a pretty regular basis. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:02:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Scorpio Message-ID: In message <32389CC5.44D8@worldnet.att.net>, Jerry Schueler writes >>The real fun part is trying to figure out which theosophists are the >>different characters. I, of course, was Scorpio. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >Chuck, as it happens, I am a Scorpio this time too. > >Jerry S. > Oh well, nobody's perfect ... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:37:07 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960915034923.11ff237c@iprolink.co.nz> Responding to MK Ramadoss [Murray] > I can see a whole bundle of potential lines of discussion radiating out >from JRC's piece .... > > It would be extremely interesting to have more information like this on >the processes going on during clairvoyance etc. In helping Geoffrey Hodson >with some of his investigations into atoms, music and devas, it was clear >that there was a major condensation of the "primary" information to just >get it into his brain, then another transformation and limitation to get >it into words. > [Ramadoss] >Did you have the good fortune of working with Geoffrey Hodson? He is one >of the few true occultists who had done a lot of work and is held in very >high esteem by TS members all over the world. If you had worked with him, >it would be very invaluable to write down your experiences/observations. >Just a thought. Yes, I helped him in various projects from about 1977 to 1980, and I consider it to have been good fortune indeed. It's interesting how you can read about clairvoyance, and the many things it comes up with, and feel keenly interested in them and that they have the ring of truth, but when you are actually confronted with it, it can be a bit of a shock to the system and stir up questions and doubts you didn't know you had. I certainly had to rearrange some of my inner furniture, at the time, making a kind of transition from theoretical knowledge to something with more of a prospect of being real. Makes you wonder how it would be if you found *yourself* opening up inwardly in new and sudden ways. There'd be quite an elemental backlash from within your psyche, I'd say. This reaction was nothing new to Hodson, though. One day after we had done several sessions and I was asking him some questions, he looked at me with a kindly expression, patted my shoulder, and said that sooner or later, all his collaborators on the physical plane had a crisis of confidence in him or in clairvoyance itself. There's nothing wrong with questions, of course. In fact I believe that you need to question as clearly and penetratingly as you can; to keep the intellect sharp and ready, and the basis of your conceptual world clear and flexible - all in balance with your physical, emotional and intuitional life, preferably. I felt that Hodson embodied this state of balance and fine functioning at all levels, to a high degree, right to the end of his long life. He was always prepared to question his own observations, and question them again. I remember him saying one day that "In this game, you need to be more of a materialist than the materialists!", ie that you needed to check the evidence scrupulously, believe nothing blindly, be open minded (tho' the kind of materialist G. had in mind is probably anything but) and question everything. I would add, too, be prepared to be surprised at every step. In fact, because of the constant sense of freshness of discovery and sheer immensity of the inner universe that came with Hodson's observations, I decided that one of the important criteria for determining the accuracy and worth of superphysically-gained information, is the element of surprise, like if you didn't find something surprising every few minutes, start getting suspicious! I am taking some steps at the moment, to resume the rather on-again off-again project of producing notes of this work, and hope that it can be brought to a conclusion in the reasonably close future. It is encouraging to hear you and others express interest in this work. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:44:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: It is very refreshing to read Murray's letters. It confirms what Sages have been saying for a long time that Occultism is very scientific and the findings have been verified by repeated checking. I think that he has brought into focus the fact that in the inner world we are dealing with totally different world and hence our ideas and opinions don't apply. Turning to another topic, everyone knows that Hodson's notes had to be published in Philipines with great difficulty and I ran across a reference after several years. With Internet, Murray can e-publish without having to find a publisher. Still keeping all the copyright. It could even be serialized and I would be eagerly looking forward to it. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:54 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960914114454_308272485@emout10.mail.aol.com> Doss, The Sages know nothing about the scientific method then. Experiments have to be repeatable, not the subjective ravings of lunatics like Hodson. It is his sort of nonsense that keeps us from making serious headway in getting funding for real research into this stuff. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:04:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: Chuck: I do not agree with you. I keep an *open* mind on anything. What looks like lunatic to you may not look like it to many. It is a free country and we are all grown up people and each should make up their own mind on any thing. Thanks for your feedback. MK Ramadoss On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > The Sages know nothing about the scientific method then. Experiments have to > be repeatable, not the subjective ravings of lunatics like Hodson. It is his > sort of nonsense that keeps us from making serious headway in getting funding > for real research into this stuff. > > Chuck the Heretic > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:14:52 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960914131451_522525670@emout03.mail.aol.com> Doss, I find it difficult to keep an open mind on things that bring my area of research into disrepute. Hodson's diaries reveal the workings of mind that was fundamentally disfunctional, probably schizophrenic judging by the symptoms, but clearly ill. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:38:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: Chuck: I respect your opinion on Hodson's writings. But to me, I see nothing wrong at all with him or his writings. I would be looking forward more eagerly to Murray's observations. I am sure there may be many who share my point of view on thos-l. MK Ramadoss On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > I find it difficult to keep an open mind on things that bring my area of > research into disrepute. Hodson's diaries reveal the workings of mind that > was fundamentally disfunctional, probably schizophrenic judging by the > symptoms, but clearly ill. > > Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:11:44 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: Direct to Source .. Message-ID: <199609141619.MAA05866@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Right on, Eldon! Liesel >No one can do things for us. But this does not mean that coaches, teachers, and >the moral support of fellow students, our sangha, are not invaluable in treading >the Path. A good teacher does not give a student pat answers, and expect rote >memorization. A good teacher teaches the student to think for himself, or for >herself, and *brings out the innate capabilities in the student*. This is what >a bona fide Guru can do, or a Master, and it's really, I think, the polar opposite >from the effect of someone like a Catholic Priest, someone simply telling someone >things and powerless to inspire their lives nor evoke in them some genuine self >exertion and spiritual growth. > >-- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 14 Sep 96 19:40:45 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: <960914234044_72723.2375_FHP45-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >I find it difficult to keep an open mind on things that bring my area of >research into disrepute. Hodson's diaries reveal the workings of mind that >was fundamentally disfunctional, probably schizophrenic judging by the >symptoms, but clearly ill. Madness need not be all breakdown. It may also be break-through. It is potential liberation and renewal as well as enslavement and existential death. R. D. Laing (192789), British psychiatrist. The Politics of Experience, ch. 6 (1967). The world has always gone through periods of madness so as to advance a bit on the road to reason. Hermann Broch (18861951), Austrian novelist. The doctor, in The Spell, ch. 11 (1976; tr. 1987). We want a few mad people now. See where the sane ones have landed us! George Bernard Shaw (18561950), Anglo-Irish playwright, critic. Poulengey, in Saint Joan, sc. 1. Perhaps he was a bit different from other people, but what really sympathetic person is not a little mad? Isadora Duncan (18781927), U.S. dancer. My Life, ch. 11 (1927), of Grand Duke Ferdinand of Hungary. No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness. Aristotle (384322 B.C.), Greek philosopher. Attributed by Seneca in Moral Essays, De Tranquillitate Animi (On Tranquility of Mind), sct. 17, subsct. 10. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 02:02:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Watkins Message-ID: Memories ... Watkins Bookshop, London, England in 1960. This was THE place to go for occult, esoteric and theosophical books at the beginning of the Hippie era. At this period there was just the one shop front as shown, and a basement link via the shop next door to another closed shop in which much stock was kept. In 1960 the shop was run by just two people, Geoffrey Watkins, son of John M. Watkins (the founder) and a Mr. Miller, who sat at the desk by the door to take your money. Mr. Miller "smoked" a dummy cigarette all day called "Apal" which was supposed to stop you smoking. It did - after puffing on the thing cigarettes tasted so foul you *couldn't* smoke them. So you gave up Apal - only Mr. Miller didn't! Modern visitors to the site will still find a much larger "Watkins" Bookshop, taking up the space of all three shops involved, but the "magic" has gone. Before and after 1960 Geoffrey Watkins was usually on hand to offer the benefit of his experience and advice on most occult literature. Sometimes his opinion was subtly visible by the way in which the books were stacked on the shelves. You could *buy* AMORC literature by H.Spencer Lewis, but you could not *browse* AMORC writings without troubling Mr. Miller to arise from his seat and reach into a difficult to reach corner behind him. It seemed an unkind thing to ask ... Geoffrey Watkins was a true seeker, and also a true finder. More than once he was known to suggest to a well-known customer that they might be better off *not* buying the book they had in mind, without necessarily trying to sell them an alternative. Once inside the door there was a solitary chair in the far left corner where one could sit and sample a prospective purchase. It was here that I sat and skipped wondrously through L. Smithett-Lewis's "Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury" which, amazingly, had been 'remaindered' at only three shillings and sixpence. I still have it, along with happy memories of a more leisurely way of life, in which the kindness of the late Geoffrey Watkins, who endorsed my first application for a Reader's Ticket for the Reading Room of the British Museum, features large. And I can still see Mr. Miller sucking on his "Apal" surrounded by the yet to be finished "Collected Works of C.J.Jung, books of Qabalah, Kabbalah, Alchemy, and the various exponents of the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky teachings before Rodney Collin had jumped to his death from the top of an Aztec Temple. (The 1960 photo which inspired this item is on my homepage under "Changing Images" along with this article. Alan, 15 September 1996. --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 04:09:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: <960915040954_308740549@emout15.mail.aol.com> Ann, there is a type of divine madness that brings breakthroughs. Then there is the type that creates an overweening spiritual pride that makes the sufferer think that the guardian angel of a continent would be happy that the person deigned to notice him. That was the type of looniness that Hodson had. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:38:28 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960916055044.121f23e0@iprolink.co.nz> M K Ramadoss wrote: It is very refreshing to read Murray's letters. It confirms what Sages have been saying for a long time that Occultism is very scientific and the findings have been verified by repeated checking. I think that he has brought into focus the fact that in the inner world we are dealing with totally different world and hence our ideas and opinions don't apply. Then Chuck wrote: The Sages know nothing about the scientific method then. Experiments have to be repeatable, not the subjective ravings of lunatics like Hodson. It is his sort of nonsense that keeps us from making serious headway in getting funding for real research into this stuff. and Chuck again later says: I find it difficult to keep an open mind on things that bring my area of research into disrepute. Hodson's diaries reveal the workings of mind that was fundamentally disfunctional, probably schizophrenic judging by the symptoms, but clearly ill. Murray, in response: Chuck, you won't like this, but you appear to have quite a lot in common with Hodson, namely a dislike of empty shibboleths and fatuous misconceptions that have only too readily entwined themselves around the historical vehicle of modern theosophy as well as more recent "New Age" developments. In my experience and dealings with him, he always sought to uncover and dismiss these elements wherever they occurred. Others who helped him, and whom I know, would support this. Now, replying to individual parts of your messages: >The Sages know nothing about the scientific method then. An assertion, but rather hollow - a bit like stating "There are no such things as ghosts." I'd like to know when you discover how to prove this kind of negation. >Experiments have to be repeatable Really? The real world is not always that obliging. Many kinds of experiment are not exactly repeatable and science is beginning to wake up to the fact that it has to evolve ways of dealing with the non-repeatable and the subjective, and so may step into a new phase of maturity. Hodson worked with scientists and other qualified people throughout his life, explicitly asking them what areas were worth looking at and asking them to put the questions he would turn his faculties towards. I know, Chuck, for I was there for some of it and know others who were involved in other similar work. It was very challenging for all concerned, but really interesting. >, not the subjective ravings of lunatics like Hodson. This reveals more about the mind it came from than about Hodson's. I'm not being nasty - that's just how it often is. "Raving" and "lunatic" are good words for your avowed role of iconoclast, of course, with large emotional content and nebulous meaning - but this kind of phrase that you let fly with from time to time does tend to limit you to the bargain basement of discourse and actually bluntens your iconoclasm. In any case, this is a strange kind of blunderbuss to let off in a theosophical forum. In the opinion of many, you could cover the whole of mysticism, theosophy (general as well as specific) and individual search for the spiritual way with it! You should be in some kind of fundamentalist camp. (Yeah, I know how you'd like that!) Maybe you just like bangs and bullets. Well, I suppose we are all mature and tolerant round here - it just gets a little tiring at times. >It is his sort of nonsense that keeps us from making serious headway in >getting funding for real research into this stuff. Another blunderbuss, and I wonder what you're talking about. I wonder too why several scientists decided to have anything to do with him. From my observation, certain layers of misunderstanding surround a person like Hodson and it's there that an element of adulation and almost superstition can creep in. Look at what surrounded Krishnamurti in the 1920's etc. It's a fairly inevitable result of distance from the person, I guess. >I find it difficult to keep an open mind on things that bring my area of >research into disrepute. Can you be more explicit? Just about anything in theosophy could bring disrepute, in some eyes, and probably most of the things I gather you do research on, would, too. >Hodson's diaries reveal the workings of mind that >was fundamentally disfunctional, probably schizophrenic judging by the >symptoms, but clearly ill. A professional opinion? I never felt that Hodson was mentally ill. Far from it. Complex, yes, but ill, no. I believe that clairvoyants and other sensitives are not well understood on the whole within the TS. Sure, they're better understood than in general society, but the roles are reversing in some quarters, now. This misunderstanding is an inevitable result of having faculties or experiences that the majority don't have. To my mind, there has been a tendency to expect perfection from those with seership etc; a lack of real understanding of the layers of being in a person, where the imperfect and limited coexist with the large, clear and universal. Look at Blavatsky, for heaven's sake. You seem to be falling into one of the traps you generally like to pick out and discover for others. One of Hodson's greatest hopes, in making his faculties available to qualified people, was that it would indicate the potential of these faculties for extending research to new frontiers. He was well aware of his limitations and always strove to reach nearer the core of whatever he was investigating. He hoped that others would cover the ground he explored, and go further. But which of us here knows what it's like to be a multi-dimensionally aware being living for a long time in the one body and mind? Would not conventions of thought and expression develop and be used when convenient? Would it not be an ongoing strain, perhaps leading to some distortions in the inner structure of the mind, to know and be aware of realms that most were not aware of? Things you couldn't share except in highly unsatisfactory and limiting language, and then only with a very few? In his day it would have been dynamite to say you communicated with the Masters - no wonder he chose to keep it secret during his lifetime. It's a changing story now, of course. Can we not apply a little bit of intuition - something which is unlikely to work in the presence of hostility or misunderstanding? And, as each of us enters the way of self-accelerated becoming, are there not all sorts of ways that we create layers of what we believe ourselves to be? Paradoxically, there's a growing complexity alongside the growing simplification that unfolding spirituality brings. Beware! Psychogenesis is stalking you! (Karma, really). It little behoves us to sling criticism at others in this way. Hodson was a great iconoclast too. He was not afraid of differing from what other clairvoyants reported. I know, because I saw him do it and be aware that it could make waves. Well, Chuck, I have allowed myself to respond to one of your "stirring" little outbursts, more for the benefit of those who might want to know some of the things that only somebody who had something to do with Hodson could know. I have either done you the honour or made the mistake of taking you seriously for a while - but who knows which but you? :-) Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:55:05 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Murray on Hodson Message-ID: <199609151202.IAA12021@ultra1.dreamscape.com> `> It is encouraging to >hear you and others express interest in this work. > >Murray Add me to the list. Hodson was one of the theosophists I read when I got started. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:29:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: Again I enjoyed reading Murray's post responding mine and Chuck's. Years ago I had read some of the observations of Hodson on diseases. They were very interesting. Another point of interest I should mention here is that Hodson travelled very extensively and lectured on many topics. And the service he has done should be kept in view. He also visited San Antonio several years before I moved here. I wish I had the opportunity to meet him personally, but I did not. Even while I was in India, he was at Adyar heading the School of Wisdom and I was too young and with less initiative to have gone and met and talked to him. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:30:15 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960915123014_102398258@emout08.mail.aol.com> Murray, The problem I have with Hodson is twofold. First, I am turned off by the tone of his approach to things, but that is a personal matter of taste and I would never be so foolish as to expect anyone else to agree with me on it. The second is far more serious. One of the things we have learned about how the brain functions is that the electrical activity inside it takes visual forms. So a piece of music, for example, will cause the optic nervous system, not merely the optic nerves but that part of the brain that sees, to have a visual experience. This is easily provable by the fact that if one is meditating and is disturbed by a sudden noise one sees all kinds of colors for an instant. In any event, these forms have been mapped to the point were computers can be programmed to duplicate emotions by the visual forms they produce. Hodson, apparently, saw these forms and then externalized the vision, in other words he saw them outside of himself rather than merely as an internal light show. Now this skill can be learned. It is, in fact, the visualization training that is so important in magick. When it is involuntary, however, as was clearly the case with Hodson, it is a symptom of mental illness and in fact is part of the diagnoses of schizophrenia. So with Hodson we have a problem because of the totally subjective nature of his visions. As far as his other clairvoyant work, some of it may be valuable as anecdotal evidence, but the problem of repeatability still bedevils us and will for some time. That is why academic type parapsychologists have gone to the statistical gobbledygook that makes their work unreadable. Now, to be fair, which is not something I enjoy because being unfair is so much more fun, Hodson was part of a generation that was notoriously uncritical in its thinking. There was such a strong desire to believe in something, anything, that the most preposterous claims were often taken on face value, especially in the TS, sadly to say. And at the time the peculiar workings of the brain were not understood as they are today and we still are only scratching the surface. Hodson's problem may have been that he became so idolized that he believed his own press, as it were, and lost the ability to question the reality of his visions. It may be that the only way to deal with such people is to examine each action as an individual phenomenon and divorce it from any whole in order to find out what was true and what was nonsense. But hero-worship does no good in any form of inquiry. It only gets in the way and Hodson's journal reveals some fundamentally questionable attitudes. Clearly his comments about personal visits from the master Polidentus or whatever-his-name-was does not cause any confidence in his other work. Still, I will try, however hard it may be, to keep a little crack of my mind open on this, and I look forward to seeing your material. Who knows, I could be wrong. It happened once in May of 1958 and might happen again. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:32:30 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960915123229_102399326@emout04.mail.aol.com> Doss, Read my reply to Murray. Let's see what he has to say. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:59:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: Chuck: Will do - I try to read all posts on theos-xxx. I more interested in Murray's thoughts, opinions and observations and comments on the various things that occurred when he had the invaluable opportunity to be associated with him. I am, like many other possible lurkers, eagerly waiting to see his thoughts etc serialized here. I do not know many individuals who had the good fortune to work with Hodson and it would be, in my opinion, a very valuable addition to the existing literature. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > Read my reply to Murray. Let's see what he has to say. > > Chuck the Heretic > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:03:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: understanding krishnamurti (fwd) Message-ID: Hi Here is something that might interest some in theos-l. M K Ramadoss > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:09:33 -0700 > From: Veselin Terzic > Subject: understanding krishnamurti Krishnamurti is quite easy to understand. Thought is quite mechanical. For example, when your brain "excites" a pattern of neurons (from the senses), then another part of the brain will take this pattern of neurons and from a sound-base directory will store it. To retrieve this pattern of neurons or a memory of this, is from sounds, or words. It is this process of sounds that we call words. Thought is only words plus words plus words continually. To the brain it does not matter if the person is speaking outside the body (to someone) or to the person him/herself (ie to oneself). Words are dead to each other. Just like a typewriter typing down words. Each typewritten word is dead to the other and is in the past. Words in the brains are the same, except that by sound the pattern of nuerons or memory of the patterms are retrieved. The main part is "insight" which is not from words or the process of labelling the pattern of neurons with sounds (words). Where does insight come from? It does not come from thought. But insight seems to be outside the nrmal time frame of words. That is "insight" knows what is best for you, where as words are activated from your desires/greed. That is what words you use (thinking) depends on your deisres. Using words has become a "pleasure" Emotions are only the physical reactions to the words that have been activated. The physical reeactions are: increase heart beat, stimulating and pleasurable body excitements, and so forth. The ego is all words. All"thinking" is only words. That's all/ But, when a word is selected from all the other words, it is the correct choice. How does the brain which is mechancial select a word? By insight. Insight is an extreme energy. There is no connection between words to insight. Insight uses the words, as your fingers would use the keys on the typewriter. I hope this is clear. Insight is what Krishanmurti is talking about. If one lives a life of insight, one's life is charmed and is total in happiness. What makes you think or say certain words? Before the word is formed, your energy is dictating the words. If you're unhappy, upset, the words selected will relflect this unhappy, upset condition. And this unhappyness continues. Insight "observes" this unhappy energy. But, people, only concentrate on the words selected. One can use words and words, for indefinitely and nothing will ever happen. One says, "I intellectually understand" which is just using words and words and words. Words are dead, meaningless, just the type written words on the page. But, insight, is a live energy which "observes" the energy that selects the words that are used. Religion, politics, etc. focuses only on the words selected and not on the "energy" that actually picks the words that will be used. Insight can not be raised by words (thought). All scientific "discoveries" came from insight not from the manipulation of words. Thinking is only the manipulation of words; whereas, insight, is an active energy behind the words. Desires/ego is all from words and the selection of words. In effect, desires with its physical responses of increase heart beat, sweating, eyes more alert, etc. is words. I could go on, but I'm not sure if I'm not just rambling on. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 16:48:37 PDT From: jecruz@planet.com.mx (Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez) Subject: Presentacisn Message-ID: Hola, hola!! Mi nombre es Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez, soy estudiante de Teosofma y de la carrera en computacisn, aqum en Mixico, me comuniqui con Eldon B. Tucker, y me dijo que existma un foro de discusisn en espaqol y que esta era la direccisn, tambiin que este foro ya no se usaba corrientemente desde hace algzn tiempo y otras cosas, escribo porque quisiera mantener comunicacisn con ustedes, que me dicen son 20 y casi todos son de California, en los Estados Unidos. Por favor, si hay alguien ahm, contisteme, vamos a hacer crecer este foro, porque los latinos podemos discutir temas teossficos al igual que los demas, ?o no? Tambiin les invito a que visiten la pagina de Internet, que elaboramos aqum en Mixico, la direccisn es "http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm", chiquencla y dejen ahm sus comentarios por favor. Cualquier querella , aunque sea para que ya no les hable mandenmela. Gracias, sinceramente. --------------------------------------------- Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez jecruz@planet.com.mx From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:17:39 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > The Sages know nothing about the scientific method then. Experiments have to > be repeatable, not the subjective ravings of lunatics like Hodson. It is his > sort of nonsense that keeps us from making serious headway in getting funding > for real research into this stuff. > > Chuck the Heretic > Real research is being done. Just not reported in a world where its still usually called "subjective ravings". The study of angels is quite like the study of wildlife biology. for several hundred years "science" studied animals only in the controlled conditions of zoos - because without those conditions the "repeatability" of science wasn't possible. Only problem was, as people started discovering (e.g., Dian Fossey & etc.) that one could actually go into the worlds of the animals in their natural habitats, that a great deal of the "truths" learned about animals by studying them under controlled conditions in zoos turned out to be absolute bunk, and only appeared in the species as an effect of being caged and studied with the "scientific method". Neither animals or angels fit very conveniently into the scientific paradigm. And never will. They will not change. Science someday might. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:31:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, JRC wrote: > caged and studied with the "scientific method". Neither animals or angels > fit very conveniently into the scientific paradigm. And never will. They > will not change. Science someday might. This is wonderful summary. I recall a statement to the effect, to understand one has to come to their world and not the other way around. You have made my day as the above gives to totally different perspective than what we are all traditionally used to. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:08:54 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960916130853_309698643@emout11.mail.aol.com> Doss, That was my boo-boo. I keep forgetting that when you work with someone you tend to have different view of that person that those who see from a the benefit of hindsight and then add the generational differences, well, never let it be said that a little minefield ever stood in my way of blowing things up. The important thing is that we don't accept anything without questioning it. That is how we get into real trouble. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:09:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960916130909_309698832@emout14.mail.aol.com> John, Uh, one teensy little problem. I have never seen a fossil angel, have you? Maybe when we can translate what goes on in the brain to videotape we may get a clearer picture of what is really going on. Until then, we have to judge by the available evidence and I fear from reading Hodson's journals that his was often flawed. But this is an imperfect study with lots of variables that we don't understand. Still, I cannot in conscience consider Hodson's work scientific in any way until it has been repeated by others. It would have been far better if he had merely published his technique and said, "Here's what you do, see for yourself what you find," and then see how many folks get similar results, rather than jump off into LCC-laced dogmatism. In that regard Hodson was merely being a man of his time. But his Master Pollidentus What's-His-Name business seems to have been just plain nuts. Much as I hate to make Eldon happy, there is a lot of genuine psychic stuff that goes on in mental hospitals, some of it quite interesting physical phenomena, such as the patient in a hospital near Chicago who levitated about 7 years ago and it took fifteen staff members to bring him back to the floor. I remember the night one of the nurses told me about it. She was genuinely flummoxed by the whole thing and I was genuinely shocked. There seems to be no question but that when the activity of the brain is disturbed it takes many forms, such as the possible relationship between clairvoyance and temporal lobe epilepsy. One of the real problems we have had in trying to solve the controlled PK problem with the psionic helmet has been making sure that we don't destroy the operator along with the priceless ming vase we intend to use for a target (along with the stained glass windows in several large churches and a few other choice things that I've always wanted to break). You are of course aware of the question posed to Russel Targ when he went to Russia to meet with the Soviet researchers and the first thing they asked him was how his team at SRI prevented their psychics from going crazy. There is no question in my mind from looking at the published Hodson material that he suffered from a mental illness and delusions of grandeur was certainly one of the symptoms. I find it impossible to read his journals without coming to that conclusion. But it may have been that very illness that gave him those abilities that can be proven. The problem is that it makes determining the genuineness of anything he saw very hard to believe and the conclusions he drew from them impossible to accept. But then it may also be that everyone, including myself, who does serious work in this area is a little mad. We may just control it better. At least I've never been visited by a Master who named himself after false-teeth cleaner. But then I've never seen the Virgin Mary in the bathroom either. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 16 Sep 96 15:09:43 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: <960916190943_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: > One of the real problems we have had in trying to >solve the controlled PK problem with the psionic helmet has been making sure >that we don't destroy the operator along with the priceless ming vase we >intend to use for a target (along with the stained glass windows in several >large churches and a few other choice things that I've always wanted to break). Why does this remind me of that old classic sci-fi flick titled Forbidden Planet? You know, the one where Professor Morbius (Walter Pigeon) uses the left-behind hardware/software of an extinct advanced race of beings and finds it will create or destroy anything he can think of. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:27:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > John, > Uh, one teensy little problem. I have never seen a fossil angel, have you? > Maybe when we can translate what goes on in the brain to videotape we may get > a clearer picture of what is really going on. Until then, we have to judge > by the available evidence and I fear from reading Hodson's journals that his > was often flawed. In spite of what Chuck has stated, my experience with working with individuals has been very different. From many of them I have learnt a lot for which I am very grateful. As for Hodson, my views on him stands. As I have said earlier, I would be very eagerly looking for Murray's comments, opinions, observations etc on his association with Hodson, and I am very confident that it will be very valuable for posterity. Once the material is posted, each can and should come to his/her own conclusions. Again Murray, you have my 100% support on this project. I am sure there are other lurkers who feel the same way. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:27:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: Chuck: See my response to Murray I just posted. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > That was my boo-boo. I keep forgetting that when you work with someone you > tend to have different view of that person that those who see from a the > benefit of hindsight and then add the generational differences, well, never > let it be said that a little minefield ever stood in my way of blowing things > up. > The important thing is that we don't accept anything without questioning it. > That is how we get into real trouble. > > Chuck the Heretic > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:10:15 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960917152231.11ff2ec4@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck wrote >Ann, >there is a type of divine madness that brings breakthroughs. Then there >is the type that creates an overweening spiritual pride that makes the >sufferer think that the guardian angel of a continent would be happy that >the person deigned to notice him. That was the type of looniness that >Hodson had. A couple of assumptions, here, it seems. One of Hodson's observations was that most of the deva kingdom were too wide-ranging in their consciousness and remote from ordinary concerns, or just too busy, to care what people thought of them. That didn't stop him from trying to observe them, though. Another was that there are some members or groups whose work does bring them into contact with humanity, and that some of these are willing, even keen, to find human co-workers in fields like healing, music, ritual, childbirth, agriculture, and just plain ol' life in the home. He's not the only observer to report this. Whenever Hodson said he was aware of the presence or attention of an angelic being, during the clairvoyant research I was present at, and it happened a good number of times, what I saw in him were various mixtures of awe, respect, reverence, intense interest, and a total lack of anything you could remotely call pride. It was, in a way, a humbling experience for me just to see this. Hope this helps round out the picture. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:16:17 -0300 From: ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Subject: Peter in Rome Message-ID: Alan wrote: >how is it that Paul, who was under house arrest >(staying with Linus, later said to become Bp. of Rome) never mentions >the presence of Peter in the city? Paul mentions Peter (Kephas) often >enough at other times. It is inconceivable that he would not mention >the presence of Peter in Rome at the same time as he himself was there. Correct, in his second imprisonment at Rome during 67AD (in accordance with ) Paul refers to Linus 2Tm4:21 (Paul indirectly refers that was in Rome at 2Tm1:17) and no mentions to Peter. In his first imprisonment in Rome during 60-61AD (Acts 28:30) also there is no mention about Peter in Rome. In Cl 4:11 written at this time, in Rome, Paul mention that Mark was the only circumcised that accompanies him. Alan also wrote: >The speech of Peter is said, in the gospel, to be noticeably Galilean, >with the inference that he may have been as simple a man as the gospels >portray him. If so, he probably spoke only Galiliean Aramaic (different >from Judean aramaic) and would have been more at home in the Persian >Empire, where Aramaic was widely spoken, and not the Roman Empire. and in his homepage Nazareans part 1 >people in Galilee and Judae probably spoke aramaic. At that time hebrew >was no longer the spoken language (at galilee and judae). Aramaic is very >similar to hebrew in many ways. Its alphabet has the same number of letters > and it can be written in the same square character as printed in hebrew. Jews spoke hebrew in Rome. But in Judae and galilee jews spoke aramaic. Peter living in Judae probably also spoke aramaic. If Peter was in Rome, could be understood by jews? i think yes. For instance, at Acts21:40 Paul was imprisioned at Jerusalem, and speaks in greek with romans and in HEBRAIC (not aramaic) with jews. So hebraic could be also understood by people in judae. I think that the opposite understanding could also be possible: the jews in Rome could understand aramaic. Peter is described as an unlearned man Acts 4:13, so it is possibly that he didn`t know greek. To speak towards greeks (let`s remember that Peter was the circumcision apostle, and then his main people was jew, not greek) probably the recurred to some interpreter, like Mark, that was described by Papias as . Alan also wrote: >In the very ancient Aramaic "Peshitta" text of 1 Peter (The Aramean >churches have never recogised 2 Peter) the verses mentioning Babylon are >not present, and the letter thus appears as a General Epistle which >could have been written from anywhere. The same churches do not receive >the Book of Revelation, which is the only other place where any >meaningful substitution of "Babylon" for "Rome" appears. Is this version that you cites more reliable that others ancients manuscripts? It is not enough to cite ONE version. How much and reliable is this source? Could be interesting to know what says some of the most scholars about ancient manuscripts, like Tischendorf, Westcott, Kurt Alland or Bruce Metzger. at internet I find the following comments: >Until the nineteenth century New Testament scholars and translators availed >themselves only sparingly of other manuscripts. Then, within a fairly short >period, a number of manuscripts of superior quality became available, mainly >thanks to the work of the German scholar Constantin Tischendorf. These >manuscripts dated from the fourth and fifth centuries and presented a text that >was at least free from the accretions of a later age. We had to wait, however, >until the 70's and 80's of the nineteenth century for new critical editions of the >New Testament. Tischendorf himself and the British scholars Westcott and Hort >produced two rival editions of the Greek text. Most of the work in textual >criticism in the past forty years has been done by Kurt Aland in Muenster and >Bruce Metzger in Princeton. The latest translations of the New Testament are >based on their work. However it`s clear that this addition that you supposes is before century IV, beccause: Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. BOOK II, CHAPTER XV. The Gospel according to Mark. Clement in the eighth book of his Hypotyposes gives this account, and with him agrees the bishop of Hierapolis named Papias. And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure,Babylon, as he does in the following words: "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:26:39 +0100 From: Alan Subject: Welcome! Message-ID: Theosophy International welcomes Robert Word! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:05:34 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Presentacisn Message-ID: Hi While I do not know Spanish, yours is the first message I have seen - perhaps the first ever posted. Thanks for the post. Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez wrote: > Hola, hola!! > Mi nombre es Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez, soy estudiante de Teosofma y de la carrera en > computacisn, aqum en Mixico, me comuniqui con Eldon B. Tucker, y me dijo que existma un > foro de discusisn en espaqol y que esta era la direccisn, tambiin que este foro ya no se usaba > corrientemente desde hace algzn tiempo y otras cosas, escribo porque quisiera mantener > comunicacisn con ustedes, que me dicen son 20 y casi todos son de California, en los Estados > Unidos. Por favor, si hay alguien ahm, contisteme, vamos a hacer crecer este foro, porque los > latinos podemos discutir temas teossficos al igual que los demas, ?o no? Tambiin les invito a > que visiten la pagina de Internet, que elaboramos aqum en Mixico, la direccisn es > "http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm", chiquencla y dejen ahm sus comentarios por > favor. Cualquier querella , aunque sea para que ya no les hable mandenmela. Gracias, > sinceramente. > --------------------------------------------- > Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez > jecruz@planet.com.mx From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:23:47 -0400 From: Eric Escalante Subject: Hola Message-ID: <199609171123.HAA03363@ns.sinfo.net> At 17:51 16/09/96 -0400, you wrote: > Hola, hola!! Hola Jesus: Mi nombre es Eric Escalante, tambien soy estudiante de computacion y teosofia, al igual que metafisica, y demas, en Panama, Republica de Panama (naci en el D.F.). Me agrado ver tu mensaje en esta lista, pense que nadie la usaba. La pagina que mencionaste es EXCELENTE, felicito a todos sus organizadores, porque dicha pagina contribuye a la expansion de la Luz. Unanse mas!! Demos Vida a este foro!! Gracias y Hasta Pronto, Eric Escalante. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:56:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, here is an interesting message. I called the toll free number and they want requests to be faxed to 513-865-1930 or by snailmail to P-Trax, PO Box 933, Dayton OH 45401-0933 with your name and current address and request to be removed from their P-Trax data base. Hope those in the USA will be interested in the message. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:19 -0400 > From: Somendra Pant > Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >>>>>Subject: Credit Card Information >>>>> >>>>>This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! >>>>> >>>>>FYI: >>>>> >>>>>Your name, social security number, current address, previous >>>>>addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >>>>>information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >>>>>new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >>>>>information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >>>>>someone else to use your identity. >>>>> >>>>>You can have your name and information removed from this list by >>>>>making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >>>>>then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering >>>> >>>>>that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >>>>>also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >>>>>Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >>>>>your name has been removed is always a good idea. >>>>> >>>>>As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >>>>>Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >>>>>operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >>>>>"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >>>>>whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >>>>>the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >>>>>to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. >>>>> >>>>>I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >>>>>need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. I >>>>>suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >>>>>from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. >>>>> >>>>>Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >>>>>- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail from vol-l@sgh.waw.pl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:56:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, here is an interesting message. I called the toll free number and they want requests to be faxed to 513-865-1930 or by snailmail to P-Trax, PO Box 933, Dayton OH 45401-0933 with your name and current address and request to be removed from their P-Trax data base. Hope those in the USA will be interested in the message. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:19 -0400 > From: Somendra Pant > Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >>>>>Subject: Credit Card Information >>>>> >>>>>This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! >>>>> >>>>>FYI: >>>>> >>>>>Your name, social security number, current address, previous >>>>>addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >>>>>information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >>>>>new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >>>>>information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >>>>>someone else to use your identity. >>>>> >>>>>You can have your name and information removed from this list by >>>>>making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >>>>>then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering >>>> >>>>>that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >>>>>also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >>>>>Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >>>>>your name has been removed is always a good idea. >>>>> >>>>>As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >>>>>Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >>>>>operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >>>>>"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >>>>>whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >>>>>the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >>>>>to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. >>>>> >>>>>I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >>>>>need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. I >>>>>suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >>>>>from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. >>>>> >>>>>Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >>>>>- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail from vol-l@sgh.waw.pl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:56:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: In message <960916190943_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Why does this remind me of that old classic sci-fi flick titled Forbidden >Planet? You know, the one where Professor Morbius (Walter Pigeon) uses the >left-behind hardware/software of an extinct advanced race of beings and finds it >will create or destroy anything he can think of. > >-Ann E. Bermingham Maybe Chuck is a remake of Prof. Morbius? Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:52:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Still no evidence for Peter in Rome Message-ID: In message , ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >at internet I find the following comments: > >>Until the nineteenth century New Testament scholars and translators availed >>themselves only sparingly of other manuscripts. Then, within a fairly short >>period, a number of manuscripts of superior quality became available, mainly >>thanks to the work of the German scholar Constantin Tischendorf. These >>manuscripts dated from the fourth and fifth centuries and presented a text that >>was at least free from the accretions of a later age. We had to wait, however, >>until the 70's and 80's of the nineteenth century for new critical editions of >the >>New Testament. Tischendorf himself and the British scholars Westcott and Hort >>produced two rival editions of the Greek text. Most of the work in textual >>criticism in the past forty years has been done by Kurt Aland in Muenster and >>Bruce Metzger in Princeton. The latest translations of the New Testament are >>based on their work. > >However it`s clear that this addition that you supposes is before century >IV, beccause: > >Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. BOOK II, CHAPTER XV. The Gospel according to Mark. >Clement in the eighth book of his Hypotyposes gives this account, and with >him agrees the bishop of Hierapolis named Papias. And Peter makes mention >of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as >is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure,Babylon, as he does >in the following words: "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with >you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." Correct! The Peshitta text (pub. Bible Soc. in Israel in Hebrew and Aramaic ONLY) is considered to date (in its earliest form or parts) from circa 208 c.e. (a.d.). This is well before century IV. It is only very recently (in scholarly terms) that this text has received any serious notice, and then only by a few. In England the principal Syriac (ie, Aramaic) scholars were Burkitt and Cureton, both long deceased. In the 1930s a great deal of material was published from Cambridge under the now very scarce "Woodbrooke Studies" series, which was the work of A. Mingana. I have a few of these volumes, but they deal almost exclusively with NT apocryphal material in Syriac/Aramaic and related languages. In more recent times the Peshitta text has been translated into English (but adding later material in order to make it fit the Protestant "Canon" of scripture by the late George Lamsa. His complete Bible translation is still, I believe, available from Harper in the USA. Lamsa was himself a native Aramaic speaker, having gone to the US from that part of the world. English was his second language. There are other books by him, all in English. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:39:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Peter not in Rome Message-ID: <9IBRUgAVUePyEwvK@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >Acts21:40 Paul was >imprisioned at Jerusalem, and speaks in greek with romans and in HEBRAIC >(not aramaic) with jews. So hebraic could be also understood by people in >judae. I think that the opposite understanding could also be possible: the >jews in Rome could understand aramaic. The text says that he spoke to them "in the Hebrew language" - meaning the language *spoken* by the Hebrews, which at that date was almost certainly Aramaic in one form or another, so *JEWS* in Rome would have understood him, but *NOT GENTILES*. Ironically, they would probably not have understood anyone who actually *did* speak Hebrew. Even in Judea, the Hebrew Scriptures had to be interpreted to the hearers when they were read aloud, which gave rise to the many Targums, or paraphrases that developed, some of which were written down and almost became "holy writ" themselves ... it is clear that in the Holy Land at that period, the Jews themselves no longer understood Hebrew, except for some among the priestly caste. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:41:56 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960914174155_308459893@emout04.mail.aol.com> Doss, I'm sure that Murray's observations will be interesting and I'll probably enjoy reading them myself. But Hodson is an embarrassment to the TS. There is nothing scientific about unverifiable visions and to claim that there is makes us look pretty silly. So, for the benefit of those who may have forgotten, the scientific method is as follows: 1. Observe 2. Form an hypothesis based on the observation 3. TEST THE HYPOTHESIS (how one is to test visions of giant angels is beyond me) 4. Formulate a theory based on the results of the test. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:26:19 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960916232619_480307434@emout04.mail.aol.com> Chuck writes> >So, for the benefit of those who may have forgotten, the scientific method is >as follows: >1. Observe >2. Form an hypothesis based on the observation >3. TEST THE HYPOTHESIS (how one is to test visions of giant angels is beyond >me) >4. Formulate a theory based on the results of the test. Richard Ihle writes> I like the scientific method, also. However, I am usually careful not to get carried into the realm of science-worship by it. Indeed, sometimes I find myself wondering if the entirety of the scientific method is not really based upon one of the classical "logical fallacies": 1. If A is true, then B is true. 2. B is true. 3. Therefore A is true. An example of this type of error: 1. If Francis Bacon wrote HAMLET, then HAMLET is likely to be a great play. 2. HAMLET is a great play. 3. Therefore, Francis Bacon wrote HAMLET. The scientific method: 1. If my hypothesis is true, then a particular experiment will likely produce certain predicted things. 2. Certain predicted things are produced. 3. Therefore, my hypothesis is true. Nonetheless, you have written some interesting things lately, Chuck. Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:55:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Get your virgin here ... Message-ID: In message <960916130909_309698832@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >But then I've never seen the Virgin Mary in the >bathroom either. > >Chuck the Heretic Send for my booklet, "How to see the Virgin Mary in your bathroom." Supplies are very scarce, and are available to Initiates only for a minimum donation of $200+ If perchance you see her in your bathroom without having read my booklet, it is certain you are deluded, or not an Initiate. Frater Libidino --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:14:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.16.19960917152231.11ff2ec4@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes > >One of Hodson's observations was that most of the deva kingdom were too >wide-ranging in their consciousness and remote from ordinary concerns, or >just too busy, to care what people thought of them. My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. ..snip... > >Another was that there are some members or groups whose work does bring them >into contact with humanity, and that some of these are willing, even keen, >to find human co-workers in fields like healing, music, ritual, childbirth, >agriculture, and just plain ol' life in the home. He's not the only observer >to report this. My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. There were a lot of them at Lockerbie, like high up in the sky where the "dead" were. Many of them were former humans like ourselves, but discarnate. Doing the Bhodisattva bit, maybe. Many "angelic" entities seem to be ex-humans in a "higher" - or better "further" - stage of development. Clairvoyance can take many forms, and cannot therefore, IMHO, lend itself to the scientific method of observation, much as I repeatedly advocate its use. The most important factor, as I see it (from experience) is for *the clairvoyant* to learn as early as possibly that a strike rate of 100% cannot be reached, that 50% is doing well, and that even that 50% is liable to subjective interpretation. I was once told by a communicating something/someone: "We can only use the vocabulary we find already available in your mind." (For direct communication). The clear inference was to study as much as possible and to acquire as wide a vocabulary as possible! I *have* been given clear and sometimes exact details of where to look (down here) for required information. > >Hope this helps round out the picture. > And I hope this may help to add to it. In spite of my often puerile (what's the feminine for "puerile?") attempts at humor, I do take all this occult stuff quite seriously - I have to! Taking the scientific approach as best I can, I have long described all such contacts, whether otherwise known as devas, angles of whatever, as hIntelligences - this is the only *defintive* means I can think of to avoid dogmatic, theological, theosophical or other preconceptions. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:28:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >Neither animals or angels >fit very conveniently into the scientific paradigm. And never will. They >will not change. Science someday might. > -JRC Being an angel can be real tough! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:10:16 -0300 From: Subject: Talmud x gospel Message-ID: <2080186C79@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Discussind about Talmud, Toldoth and gospels, and the historicity of Jesus, Jerry wrote: >"What is the most ancient text"? According to the first century >Rabbis of the Talmud, the story of the first century B.C.E. Jesus >was taken from Temple records that were lost when the Romans >destroyed the second temple in 70 C.E....The original reason for >writing the Talmud was to preserve as many of these old records >as possible in order to continue the very culture that the Romans >tried to destroy. Therefore the Jesus story was not included in >the Talmud as some kind of revenge against Christians (who at >that time were hardly distinguishable from themselves), but only >to preserve the family records. Two Talmuds were written. One >by the Jews who remained near Jerusalem, and the other was >compiled by the Jews who fled to Babylonia. The same story was >preserved in both versions, but Christian pressure forced its >removal from the Jerusalem version. If the Jewish claim that the >early Talmud was taken from actual records at the Temple is true, >then the story of the 100 B.C.E. Jesus must be the oldest story. Enc. Britanica , , p406,407 writes: Ezra the scribe who, according to the Book of Ezra reestablished and reformed the jewish religion in the 5th century BCE, began the . His work was continued by soferim (scribes), who preserved, taught and interpreted the Bible. They linked the oral tradition to scripture, transmitting it as a running commentary of the Bible. For almost 300 years they applied the Torah to changing circumstances, making it a living law. They also introduced numerous laws that were designated by Talmudic sources. By the end of this period, rabbinic judaism - the religious system constructed y th scribes and rabbis - was strong enough to withstand pressure from withou and mature enough to permit internal diversity of opinion. At the beggining of 2nd century BCE, a judicial body headed by the zugot - pairs of scholars - assumed Halakhic authority. There were five pairs in all, beteween 150 and 30 BCE. the first of the zugot also introduced the mishnaic style of transmiting the oral tradition. Hillel and Shammai, the last of Zugot, ushered in the period of tannaim - teachers of the Mishna - at the end of the first century BCE. This era distinguished by a continuous attempt to consolidate the fragmentary midrashic and mishnaic material, culminated in the compilation of the Mishna at the beggining of the 3rd century CE. The work was carried out in the academies of Hillel and Shammai and in others founded later. Most scholars believe that Halakhic collections existed prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. By the beggining of the 2nd century there were many such collections. Tradition has it that Rabbi Akiba organized much of this material into separate collections of Midrash, Mishna and Haggada and introduced the formal divisions in tannaitic literature. His students and others scholars organized new compilations that were studied in th different academies. The expounders of the Mishna were the amoraim (interpreter) and the two Talmuds - the palestinian (or Jerusalem) and the babylonian - consist of their explanations, discussions and decisions. Both take the form of a running commentary on the Mishna. the foundations of the these monumental works were begun by three disciples of Judah ha-Nasi: Johanan bar Nappaha, Rav (Abba Arika) and Samuel bar Abba. The portion of the Palestinian Talmud dealing with three Bavot (gates)- the first three tractates of the fourth order of the Mishna - was compiled in caesarea in the middle of the 4th century. The remainder was completed in Tiberias some 50 years later. The babylonian Talmud was compiled up to 6th century. The statement in the tractate Bava metzia that is most often understood as referring to the final redactions od the Talmud. Since at least two generations of scholars following Rav Ashi (died 427) are mentioned in Talmud, most scholars suggest that Rabina refers to Rabina bar Huna (died 499) and that readction was a slow process lasting about 75 years to the end of 5th century. Conclusion both Talmuds were written after the redaction of gospels, even though some material come possibly comes from 1 BC as you suggests. But this is only a possibility, that difficult can be confirmed.... Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Sep 96 09:11:14 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex:Angels & . . . ) Message-ID: <960917131114_72723.2375_FHP33-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >I'm sure that Murray's observations will be interesting and I'll probably >enjoy reading them myself. But Hodson is an embarrassment to the TS. There >is nothing scientific about unverifiable visions and to claim that there is >makes us look pretty silly. Who's "us"? If you think Hodson is hooey, then how do you feel about HPB and her tea cups? The existence of the Masters? CWL? Findhorn? For that matter, do you think I'm off my rocker for being associated with the LCC? I distinctly remember that when you found out I was part of that group, you made some kind of anti-Satan gesture with your fingers and skated backward across the 3rd floor auditorium of Olcott. If I'd only had a video camera . . . - Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:17:50 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex:Angels & . . . ) Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > Who's "us"? > If you think Hodson is hooey, then how do you feel about HPB and her tea cups? > The existence of the Masters? CWL? Findhorn? > For that matter, do you think I'm off my rocker for being associated with the > LCC? I distinctly remember that when you found out I was part of that group, > you made some kind of anti-Satan gesture with your fingers and skated backward > across the 3rd floor auditorium of Olcott. If I'd only had a video camera . . . > Yes, as a matter of fact, come to think of it, is there *any* Theosophist, past or present, that measures up to your standards? I just realized I don't think I've ever seen you do anything other than dis `em. (This isn't a flame ... I'm actually curious (-:). -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:20:24 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: <960917132024_104024913@emout16.mail.aol.com> Ann, I know. I drool every time I see the Krell machine work. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:20:29 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960917132029_104024966@emout13.mail.aol.com> Doss, By all means Murray should post his material. If everyone cannot make up his or her mind on the matter than why bother to have minds at all? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:20:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: <960917132032_104024983@emout16.mail.aol.com> Alan, I don't have a beard. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:24:25 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: NOT a lack of understanding Message-ID: <323EECD9.5BEC@worldnet.att.net> >I believe that clairvoyants and other sensitives are not well >understood on the whole within the TS. Sure, they're better understood >than in general society, but the roles are reversing in some quarters, >now. This misunderstanding is an inevitable result of having faculties >or experiences that the majority don't have. I have to disagree here. If theosophists don't understand "clairvoyants" then who does? There is no "misunderstanding." TSs fear and mistrust clairvoyants owing to CWL's over-use of psychism, and also to HPB's and Judge's constant warnings against its practice, but I think they understand it all too well. Its mistrust based on an all-too-insightful understanding, not a lack of understanding. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:40:22 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@rci.ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: And he doesn't smoke a pipe either! Gertrude -- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:32:07 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960918154423.11ffac46@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck, >The problem I have with Hodson is twofold. First, I am turned off by the >tone of his approach to things, but that is a personal matter of taste and >I would never be so foolish as to expect anyone else to agree with me on >it. I have no problem with ackowledging differences of taste between people. To my mind, there are differences of style and tone within Hodson's own body of writing too, and some reflect him as a person better than others. And none of his writing fully reflects him as he came across when you were with him. There's a lot that could be discussed here, but maybe later. >The second is far more serious. One of the things we have learned about >how the brain functions is that the electrical activity inside it takes >visual forms. So a piece of music, for example, will cause the optic >nervous system, not merely the optic nerves but that part of the brain >that sees, to have a visual experience. This is easily provable by the >fact that if one is meditating and is disturbed by a sudden noise one sees >all kinds of colors for an instant. It's not clear what you see as provable, but Hodson was well aware of synesthesia, the experiencing of a sensory input as the effect of another sense, and had several articles on it. He was glad that science was beginning to find out about it but regarded the phenomenon itself, in most people, as pretty rudimentary and far from the trained application of inner faculties. > In any event, these forms have been >mapped to the point were computers can be programmed to duplicate emotions >by the visual forms they produce. That's really interesting, if you mean that the forms can be classified and then emotions accurately deduced from a new set of forms. There's a long, long way to go, though, before we can let ourselves think we've got clairvoyance or other forms of inner perception sorted out on the basis of discoveries in brain function, exciting and complex as they are, these days. > Hodson, apparently, saw these forms and >then externalized the vision, in other words he saw them outside of >himself rather than merely as an internal light show. It was more like that he saw them as an external light show, but the distinction between external and internal ceases to be straightforward and is full of subtlety when you're considering the inner spaces of perception and the way the focus of I consciousness can move. Also, we cannot just assume that the forms he saw were necessarily the same as the results of simple synesthesia. Somebody should research this. Here's an interesting story: We had done several music research sessions and one day decided to play a piece by a local composer and see what Hodson saw. To our surprise (and embarrassment, somewhat), he saw nothing. He was quite unable to see a music form and quite adamant about it. The piece was as loud as, and as full of harmonious chords and melodic shapes as many another piece of music, and Hodson had been seeing music forms just before and just after that, so it wasn't the weather or a headache, and clearly not some simple synesthesia that he was observing. We've got to be *really* open-minded about what "form" even means, I believe. We can't expect to simply translate from an inner experience like this to the everyday 3-D world, even if language forever forces us, and forced Hodson, to try. > Now this skill can >be learned. It is, in fact, the visualization training that is so >important in magick. When it is involuntary, however, as was clearly the >case with Hodson, it is a symptom of mental illness and in fact is part of >the diagnoses of schizophrenia. I've got to give it to you, Chuck. One giant leap for mankind, all over again! :-) Yes, it can be learned and you can train for it. Hodson trained and worked hard to get where he was, and his training included not only the making of images but the stilling of the image-making process. He often used to say that he had to establish the blank white sheet of the mind, before actually beginning to "look" at anything. Involuntary? Well, there's a lot in there, I'd say. With Hodson, there was a huge distinction between casual, unintended perception which happened when he wasn't specially trying, and intentional observation. You could just see it and feel it, apart from what he was saying he was doing. Even regarding what we'd think was the unconscious functioning of the brain in forming concepts and images, Hodson was evidently able to be aware of the operation of his own brain, as well as that of others. I'm not saying *all* the processes were open to his perception, but certainly a lot of the activity appeared to be. This itself was a subject he investigated with at least one of his scientific co-workers and I was present at one of the discussions they had on it. This is a huge topic, and needs a lot more work and insight, I believe. Another little story: We were researching the forms produced by a solo french horn, playing the middle movement of the Haydn horn concert which if anybody knows that fairly remote piece of music, has a long, slow, dirgeful melody in it. The boy's (the player) father was there too - proud dad, a musician as well. I didn't know this work at all and, as is my wont, I began to really try and analyse the, to me, initially incomprehensible series of low, rather rude-sounding notes, to try and piece together what harmony could possibly accompany it. I had been really striving to synthesize a composite sound in my mind from the aural clues for a few minutes when Hodson suddenly, and quite uncharacteristically, stopped his description of the music form phenomena, and said "I am fascinated by the activity in the brains of Murray and XXX (the father). It's as if they are playing the music in their heads." He'd never said anything like that before. I was, indeed, trying to play it in my head, and the father told me afterwards that he was following every note his son played, hearing it all in his head too. Well, I might not write a PhD on it, but it's a kind of interesting story. >So with Hodson we have a problem because of the totally subjective nature >of his visions. We have a problem all right, the same as with all human inner experience. Isn't this what you expect a vision to be? It's also a great opportunity for those who have what it takes to do anything about it, research-wise. >As far as his other clairvoyant work, some of it may be >valuable as anecdotal evidence, but the problem of repeatability still >bedevils us and will for some time. That is why academic type >parapsychologists have gone to the statistical gobbledygook that makes >their work unreadable. Hodson only ever claimed to exploring into fields where he hoped others would follow and provide more corroboration. Every scientific advance begins with an individual who does lots of exploration and does lots of things for the first time. Even makes mistakes. Can we forgive them for those, if they occur? I'd really like to see repeatability explored, too. I suspect that if you had a hundred clairvoyants looking at the same thing, you'd find considerable differences between their observations, and that in itself is an immensely interesting thing. The variability is not surprising either, if you accept that this stuff is very embryonic in most people today. Well, I've run out of time to say any more. See you again. You do bring up some interesting subjects. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:56:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, here is an interesting message. I called the toll free number and they want requests to be faxed to 513-865-1930 or by snailmail to P-Trax, PO Box 933, Dayton OH 45401-0933 with your name and current address and request to be removed from their P-Trax data base. Hope those in the USA will be interested in the message. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:19 -0400 > From: Somendra Pant > Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >>>>>Subject: Credit Card Information >>>>> >>>>>This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! >>>>> >>>>>FYI: >>>>> >>>>>Your name, social security number, current address, previous >>>>>addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >>>>>information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >>>>>new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >>>>>information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >>>>>someone else to use your identity. >>>>> >>>>>You can have your name and information removed from this list by >>>>>making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >>>>>then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering >>>> >>>>>that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >>>>>also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >>>>>Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >>>>>your name has been removed is always a good idea. >>>>> >>>>>As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >>>>>Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >>>>>operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >>>>>"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >>>>>whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >>>>>the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >>>>>to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. >>>>> >>>>>I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >>>>>need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. I >>>>>suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >>>>>from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. >>>>> >>>>>Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >>>>>- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail from vol-l@sgh.waw.pl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:22:55 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: re: Talmud x Gospel Message-ID: <9609172222.AA00553@toto.csustan.edu> Hi Abrantes: After citing material on the development of the Talmud from the Encyclopedia Britannica, you concluded: >Conclusion both Talmuds were written after the redaction of >gospels, even though some material come possibly comes from 1 BC >as you suggests. But this is only a possibility, that difficult >can be confirmed.... JHE Are we both reading the same Encyclopedic entry? As I read it, Your citation links the Talmud to the 5th century BCE: Ezra the scribe who, according to the Book of Ezra reestablished and reformed the jewish religion in the 5th century BCE, began the . His work was continued by soferim (scribes), who preserved, taught and interpreted the Bible. They linked the oral tradition to scripture, transmitting it as a running commentary of the Bible. Your citation then narrates the continuation of this tradition up to the 6th century CE. So I am not sure what you are trying to say when you write that pre-Christian material in the Talmud is "only a possibility." What is your criteria for evidence? What date do you assign to the Talmud? When the collection of this material was compiled into a single work? If this is your argument, then we would have to say that the Biblical tradition did not begin until the publication of the first complete Bible (I believe that was done around 1380). If your argument bars Talmudic material older than the oldest surviving text, then in all fairness we would have to limit consideration of the Christian tradition to the Codex Vaticanus, dated at about 300 CE. Of course you would not accept this argument, and neither would I. Evidence suggests that the New Testament scriptures were compiled in the first and second centuries. I think we agree on this. Likewise, your Encyclopedia article claims that the compilation of the material that makes up the modern Talmud began in the 5th century BCE. You wrote that it is possible that some material: comes from 1 BC as you suggests. But this is only a possibility, that difficult >can be confirmed...." Yes, without original copies of the texts, it is difficult to confirm. Likewise, it is difficult to confirm the New Testament texts without original copies. On the other hand, I think that you will find that the existence of pre-Christian era material in the Talmud is far less a matter of dispute than the tracing of New Testament scriptures to the Apostles. I think your citation bears me out on this. However, to put this all into perspective, I think the issue here is that *if* Jesus was a historical figure who lived at a certain date in history, and was known by the Jews and regarded as a "false messiah," then it is likely that he was recorded in the Jewish traditions along with all of the other "false messiahs." Indeed the Jewish traditions do have stories that look suspiciously like Jesus and some of his disciples, but they do not match the New Testament accounts. But which tradition is true? If we begin with the assumption that the Christian accounts are true, then the Jewish accounts must be false. Most Biblical scholars have taken an a priori stand in favor of the Christian traditions, thus leaving the Jewish accounts on the trash heap of unexamined possibilities. Is it a fair position to take? IMO, no. Rather then using the New Testament and the commentaries of the Christians fathers as the standard of what is a correct history of Jesus, let us instead collect together the New Testament stories, the Talmud stories, and whatever other contemporary evidence is extant. Let us put all of this into its historical context. Let us examine and compare this evidence without operating from the assumption that the New Testament account is the standard of truth to which the other evidence is to be compared. Rather, let us assume that none of the traditions are necessarily true or false. I believe that the approach I am suggesting is what Blavatsky tried to do in ISIS. As a result, she came to many conclusions that would be shocking to Christians. On the other hand, her account was inclusive of all traditions and created a far more comprehensive view of that period of history than any view that has been created through the exclusion of some traditions and the unquestioned acceptance of others. Are her conclusion correct? I don't know. But I think her approach is more objective than what is possible from the methods used by theologians. Jerry From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Sep 96 19:01:36 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Hodson's Natal Info? Message-ID: <960917230136_72723.2375_FHP62-1@CompuServe.COM> To all on theos-l: Does anyone have Hodson's birth information? I'd like to attempt to draw up his chart. Thanks, -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:13:25 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960917191324_287129060@emout02.mail.aol.com> Rich, Your point is well taken. The greatest offenders seem to be sociologists and psychologists. They never do a study without coming up with exactly the results they expect. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:14:19 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Get your virgin here ... Message-ID: <960917191418_287129876@emout14.mail.aol.com> Alan, Don't tell me, tell the fellow that sees Jesus on his closet door. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:14:35 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex:Angels & . . . ) Message-ID: <960917191435_287130095@emout10.mail.aol.com> Ann, I'm not sure what to make of HPB and the tea cup. If a conjuring trick, it was a very good one. If an apport phenomena, it was a very strange one. Don't feel too bad. I think anyone who goes to any church is a little nuts. Someone at the TS once asked me my opinion of Xtianity and I responded, "BRAIN AIDS!" And I did not skate across the third floor of Olcott. I tried to dive out the window. But Hodson...well, read his journals and you'll see what I mean. Anyone who convinces himself that a Master with a bizarre name has chosen him to reform the TS has serious problems. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:14:38 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex:Angels & . . . ) Message-ID: <960917191437_287130144@emout18.mail.aol.com> John, Of course there's one who measures up to my standards. ME! Now you know better than to ask me a damned fool question like that. :-) Other than myself, the TS is full of wonderful people who do not make asses of themselves or ridiculous claims of special revelation from the Masters. I don't write about them because there is no need to except on that strange occasion when I was called upon to defend David Bruce's sense of humor. But it's nice to see that I have once again joined the Hierarchy of Threat. It was getting boring. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE .. snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Credit Card Fraud (FWD) Message-ID: Hi, here is an interesting message. I called the toll free number and they want requests to be faxed to 513-865-1930 or by snailmail to P-Trax, PO Box 933, Dayton OH 45401-0933 with your name and current address and request to be removed from their P-Trax data base. Hope those in the USA will be interested in the message. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:19 -0400 > From: Somendra Pant > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > Subject: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >>>>>Subject: Credit Card Information >>>>> >>>>>This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! >>>>> >>>>>FYI: >>>>> >>>>>Your name, social security number, current address, previous >>>>>addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >>>>>information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >>>>>new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >>>>>information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >>>>>someone else to use your identity. >>>>> >>>>>You can have your name and information removed from this list by >>>>>making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >>>>>then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering >>>> >>>>>that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >>>>>also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >>>>>Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >>>>>your name has been removed is always a good idea. >>>>> >>>>>As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >>>>>Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >>>>>operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >>>>>"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >>>>>whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >>>>>the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >>>>>to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. >>>>> >>>>>I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >>>>>need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. I >>>>>suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >>>>>from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. >>>>> >>>>>Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >>>>>- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail from vol-l@sgh.waw.pl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE .. snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Sep 96 20:41:28 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Skating at Olcott Message-ID: <960918004127_72723.2375_FHP51-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >And I did not skate across the third floor of Olcott. I tried to dive out >the window. : - ))) Trying to escape from John Algeo and go down the yellow brick road? >But Hodson...well, read his journals and you'll see what I mean. Anyone who >convinces himself that a Master with a bizarre name has chosen him to reform >the TS has serious problems. I've had too many wild-eyed experiences of my own NOT to believe Hodson was possibly right on the money. As for feeling bad about your opinion of churches, I'm too old to feel bad about anyone's opinion about anything that I do. I'm only amused. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:13:14 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: devas , Hodson Message-ID: <199609180121.VAA08872@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Alan writes >here were a lot of them at Lockerbie, like high up in the sky where the >"dead" were. Many of them were former humans like ourselves, but >discarnate. Doing the Bhodisattva bit, maybe. Alan, That agrees exactly with what I've been told happens, even though no one mentioned Lockerbee to me; we talked just generally. It seems also that one of the activites of a shaman is to help the newly dead reach "the other shore". (S)he helps from this side, and the disembodied humans & angels help from the other side... That's what I've been told. From reading Leadbeater .. an accident victim or a suicide needs help especially, because the unexpected speed with which they've gone from life to death leaves them confused as to what's happening to them. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE .. snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:24:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: In message <960914174155_308459893@emout04.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >So, for the benefit of those who may have forgotten, the scientific method is >as follows: >1. Observe >2. Form an hypothesis based on the observation >3. TEST THE HYPOTHESIS (how one is to test visions of giant angels is beyond >me) There, as quoth the bard, is the rub. One can apply this rule subjectively for oneself, but there is no viable method of applying it to someone else's experience. Having done this for myself as best I can, I find that the working hypotheses for various kinds of experience change in direct proportion to the amount and type of experience, and that and increasingly "neutral" vocabulary is necessary to avoid doctrinal and similar associations. Like Jesus doesn't come into it anywhere .... >4. Formulate a theory based on the results of the test. --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 03:35:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: devas , Hodson Message-ID: In message <199609180121.VAA08872@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes > Alan writes >>here were a lot of them at Lockerbie, like high up in the sky where the >>"dead" were. Many of them were former humans like ourselves, but >>discarnate. Doing the Bhodisattva bit, maybe. > >Alan, > >That agrees exactly with what I've been told happens, even though no one >mentioned Lockerbee to me; we talked just generally. It seems also that one >of the activites of a shaman is to help the newly dead reach "the other >shore". (S)he helps from this side, and the disembodied humans & angels help >from the other side... That's what I've been told. From reading Leadbeater >.. an accident victim or a suicide needs help especially, because the >unexpected speed with which they've gone from life to death leaves them >confused as to what's happening to them. Which is EXACTLY how I "saw" it all. I asked one helper why he was just sort of "standing around" and was informed that they had to kind of "corral" a great many confused souls, and then wait for individuals to "wake up" enough to try and ask what was happening to them before any help could even be offered. Some of the helpers seem to have been "she" but they were all very busy on some activity I could not discern. It seems as though it was as stressful for the helpers as it would be for their earthly counterparts. Not a "Love and Peace" mission at all! > >Liesel > --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:50:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <0aXj2BAPV1PyEw$u@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960916232619_480307434@emout04.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Nonetheless, you have written some interesting things lately, Chuck. Will the real Chuck stand up! [Thunderous applause] --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 03:19:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: In message <960917132032_104024983@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >I don't have a beard. > >Chuck the Heretic You can imagine my immense relief at this item of information. I too am beardless - maybe we are setting a trend? Rumor has it that Ann lacks a beard also. Will this beardlessness never end? It is all very worrying. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 18 Sep 96 08:24:52 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Professor Psionic? Message-ID: <960918122452_72723.2375_FHP30-1@CompuServe.COM> (I've deleted the post, but it's something about Chuck drooling over the thought about having a Krell helmet.) I hear they're having a sale on Krell helmets at K-Mart. The only catch is that once you purchase one, they blast you into space so you can't hurt anyone but yourself. : - ) -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 9:26:27 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Hodson's standing Message-ID: <199609181326.JAA27028@leo.vsla.edu> Can anyone fill us in on the standing of Hodson in the TS/ES? Many of his books were published by TPH, but he seems to have fallen out of favor. The impression I get is that Radha's accession meant a reform in the ES, which no longer promoted this kind of psychism. Who were his friends, who his enemies in the Theosophical world? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:13:20 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960918101318_287583191@emout03.mail.aol.com> Murray, You bring up a pile of interesting things. My hope is that the more we can analyze the electrical activity in the brain, the sooner we can prove clairvoyance and disprove some of the nonsense surrounding it. The ultimate goal is to have instruments that can take what the brain sees and make video recordings of it. I have been told that such instruments do, in fact, exist, but they are kept under tight control by various defense agencies. Fortunately, once a form of technology is discovered it is only a matter of time before it gets loose and if these reports are true, it should not be long before an independent researcher makes one available. Then maybe we can finally get to the truth of all this. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:09:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson's standing Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Can anyone fill us in on the standing of Hodson in the TS/ES? > Many of his books were published by TPH, but he seems to have > fallen out of favor. The impression I get is that Radha's > accession meant a reform in the ES, which no longer promoted > this kind of psychism. > > Who were his friends, who his enemies in the Theosophical world? I do not think there are any enemies in the Theosophical World. As far as I know, even today, he is highly regarded by Theosophists all over the world. Many are those who have much benefitted by his writings, lectures etc. He worked many years incessantly travelling and lecturing all over the world and has lead the School of Wisdom at Adyar, several years ago. From what I know, he is a worker and not involved in any of the TS administrative matters. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:59:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Watkins Bookshop Message-ID: <199609181559.RAA11549@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Alan's reminiscenses brought back a flood of memories! I think that Watkins played from the beginning of the century a vital part in bringing together people with spiritual interests. I thought that John Watkins was a Theosophist. I recall seeing a portrait of HPB there. According to the Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology Geoffrey Watkins was next to organizer of the bookshop publisher of occult and metaphysical books. "The bookshop has long been a meeting place for leading personalities in occult sciences. Mr. Watkins father started in 1894 and was a close friend of Madame Blavatsky, c.G.Jung, Aldous Huxley, W.B.Yeats and Aleister Crowley." I remember myself fondly the long lists of second hand books they sent out in the fifties (and may be later). One could order books for a few shillings. Gone are these times. See what prices are now being asked there for the same books -almost a hundredfold. I liked the photo on your page and wonder what books might have been expected in the window at that time. Atlantis Bookshop in Museum Street retained a bit of the atmosphere of olden times. Michael Rogge From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:40:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Watkins Bookshop Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 wichm@xs4all.nl wrote: > shillings. Gone are these times. See what prices are now being asked there > for the same books -almost a hundredfold. One more reason that why I would like to see e-publishing on Internet making literature available to everyone without costing a bundle. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:47:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: 809 Fraud Message-ID: Hi Couple of days ago, the long distance scam was broadcast in one of the networks. The 809 area code is in Dominican Republic. Most callers do not know it is an International Call and I think it is charged around a dollar a minute. The telephone company in Dominican Republic kicks back about 28 cents a minute back to the person who set up the scam. One needs to look out for the 809 area code. The scam also comes in several other flavors. One time my wife saw an ad in the newspaper to call a 800 number. When she called the number, there was a message that for more details she should call the 809 number. MK RAMADOSS On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Porreco, Nick - CPMQ wrote: > > FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick > ---------- > > > This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > > > Something that's circulating here... > > > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > > > ---------- > From: theos-roots > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM > > Hi, Here is a followup. > > M K Ramadoss > > A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that > stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. > > I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. > > The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not > maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is > wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html > they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal > regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their > product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full > name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your > phone number, maybe your date of birth. > > Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! > > They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your > mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get > your > mother's maiden name. > > I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want > to make a wire funds transfer. > > As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells > callers > who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in > writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. > They > do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and > your address before they will remove you from this list. > > Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should > give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. > > So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. > And > suggest that my mother do the same. > > Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in > writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) > 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they > do not ask that people include their SSNs. > > It's real, laddies. > > Dan Stevens > > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > > . snip ... > > I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who > gets it. > > > >Subject: Credit Card Information > > > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > > > >FYI: > > > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous > >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal > >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a > >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this > >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow > >someone else to use your identity. > > > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by > >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and > >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > > > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may > >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. > >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm > >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > > > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, > >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of > >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with > >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to > >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at > >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According > >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > > > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will > >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. > >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info > >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > > > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. > >- Hope this information is helpful > > > ---End of forwarded mail > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:10:18 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960918211018.006c6844@whanganui.ac.nz> At 12:23 AM 17/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >In message <1.5.4.16.19960917152231.11ff2ec4@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray >Stentiford writes >> >>One of Hodson's observations was that most of the deva kingdom were too >>wide-ranging in their consciousness and remote from ordinary concerns, or >>just too busy, to care what people thought of them. > >My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. > >..snip... >> >>Another was that there are some members or groups whose work does bring them >>into contact with humanity, and that some of these are willing, even keen, >>to find human co-workers in fields like healing, music, ritual, childbirth, >>agriculture, and just plain ol' life in the home. He's not the only observer >>to report this. > >My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. >There were a lot of them at Lockerbie, like high up in the sky where the >"dead" were. Many of them were former humans like ourselves, but >discarnate. Doing the Bhodisattva bit, maybe. Many "angelic" entities >seem to be ex-humans in a "higher" - or better "further" - stage of >development. It would seem that there may be a difference of form and activity between the deva kingdom and the angelic. Sometimes I have read that the two are one and the same but that 'angels' are more evolved aspects of the deva kingdom. I have as yet no contact with them that might be useful. > >Clairvoyance can take many forms, and cannot therefore, IMHO, lend >itself to the scientific method of observation, much as I repeatedly >advocate its use. The most important factor, as I see it (from >experience) is for *the clairvoyant* to learn as early as possibly that >a strike rate of 100% cannot be reached, that 50% is doing well, and >that even that 50% is liable to subjective interpretation. I was once >told by a communicating something/someone: > >"We can only use the vocabulary we find already available in your mind." >(For direct communication). The clear inference was to study as much as >possible and to acquire as wide a vocabulary as possible! I *have* been >given clear and sometimes exact details of where to look (down here) for >required information. That is what I have been told also. I have had some amusing incidents when channelling to others, when the intellegences used a certain terminology which I did not think appropriate and there was a sort of mental flurry while they rephrased themselves. I do not do that now as I have learned that they seem to know what they are doing and there is often a good reason for the way they put things. The fact that I can interfere if I wish, suits my temperament. >> >>Hope this helps round out the picture. >> >And I hope this may help to add to it. In spite of my often puerile >(what's the feminine for "puerile?") attempts at humor, I do take all >this occult stuff quite seriously - I have to! > >Taking the scientific approach as best I can, I have long described all >such contacts, whether otherwise known as devas, angles of whatever, as >hIntelligences - this is the only *defintive* means I can think of to >avoid dogmatic, theological, theosophical or other preconceptions. There is only a personal feeling of 'rightness' that one can go by in these matters and one has to be vigilant all the time about the energy emitted by what is happening. None of us have to believe anything coming from the invisible realms but it is hard to deny that there is no invisible realms even if one cannot prove anything much about them. It probably comes down to one's personal belief system and how flexible it is. Even though I appear to communicate with some sort of intelligence, I am aware that it could turn out to be my higher self or else what it claims to be, as long as the info is useful and makes sense then I will continue to accept the possibility. If it all gets silly then it is time to review if it is me or whether I have been duped. Either could be a possibility at some time but I take it as it comes. > >Alan >--------- >Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. A meeting is an event at which the minutes are kept and the hours lost. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:04:44 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels etc) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960919151700.1d4fab8c@iprolink.co.nz> Alan, >>One of Hodson's observations was that most of the deva kingdom were too >>wide-ranging in their consciousness and remote from ordinary concerns, or >>just too busy, to care what people thought of them. > >My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. > >..snip... >> >>Another was that there are some members or groups whose work does bring >>them into contact with humanity, and that some of these are willing, even >>keen, to find human co-workers in fields like healing, music, ritual, >>childbirth, agriculture, and just plain ol' life in the home. He's not >>the only observer to report this. > >My own empiracally derived conclusion - totally unprovable, of course. > ..... Thanks for adding some of your experiences and thoughts. Most interesting. >I was once told by a communicating something/someone: > >"We can only use the vocabulary we find already available in your mind." >(For direct communication). The clear inference was to study as much as >possible and to acquire as wide a vocabulary as possible! Sounds entirely reasonable. Something to keep in mind. >>Hope this helps round out the picture. >> >And I hope this may help to add to it. In spite of my often puerile >(what's the feminine for "puerile?") attempts at humor, I do take all >this occult stuff quite seriously - I have to! Your condition is clearly far advanced - ahead of the rest of humanity, of course! And I know that you do take it seriously. The corresponding word would have to be "puellile", from the Latin, wouldn't it? I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting to invent it, though. >Taking the scientific approach as best I can, I have long described all >such contacts, whether otherwise known as devas, angles of whatever, as >hIntelligences - this is the only *defintive* means I can think of to >avoid dogmatic, theological, theosophical or other preconceptions. Yes, we sure can do with a baggage-free word. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:04:49 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: NOT a lack of understanding Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960919151705.1d7fab8c@iprolink.co.nz> Jerry, >If theosophists don't understand "clairvoyants" then who does? First, I'm glad you put quotes around "clairvoyant". I use the word because it has become associated with Hodson's and others' work, but it has its own load of baggage and limitations and I'm not particularly comfortable using it. Certainly, Hodson's observation techniques went well beyond the visual, or seeing things "out there", but he, too, was stuck with the word. I've met people outside the TS who have a better understanding of clairvoyance or superphysical perception than many within it and have seen a few superb books on it by people outside the TS, eg by Barbara Brennan. >There is no "misunderstanding." Well, I have seen plenty of misunderstanding within myself and others, over the years. I agree that there's considerable knowledge of these subjects in the TS, but with many people, it's centered mostly at conceptual and intellectual levels simply because they haven't had much in the way of comparable experience themselves. There's also a simple quantitative lack of knowledge in many, compared with a person who is active in the field or is associated with those who are. The misunderstanding I have in mind is partly conceptual and partly a deeper thing to do with having "been there" in consciousness. I just have to look at myself to realize what I've learnt from my contacts with several very able seers/sensitives, and realize that what I knew before all that was pretty much what many members of the TS know. I have been fortunate in this way, one might say. >Its mistrust based on >an all-too-insightful understanding, not a lack of understanding. I agree it's wise to tread carefully in view of the charades that have occurred. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ -------------------------------------------- [A fuller quote follows] [Murray] >>I believe that clairvoyants and other sensitives are not well >>understood on the whole within the TS. Sure, they're better understood >>than in general society, but the roles are reversing in some quarters, >>now. This misunderstanding is an inevitable result of having faculties >>or experiences that the majority don't have. [Jerry] > I have to disagree here. If theosophists don't understand >"clairvoyants" then who does? There is no "misunderstanding." TSs >fear and mistrust clairvoyants owing to CWL's over-use of psychism, >and also to HPB's and Judge's constant warnings against its practice, >but I think they understand it all too well. Its mistrust based on >an all-too-insightful understanding, not a lack of understanding. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:04:55 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960919151711.1d7fac54@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck wrote >There is nothing scientific about unverifiable visions. Woops! Hang on a moment. It is the *business* of science to open-mindedly enquire into unknown territory, to begin classification where little can be seen, to devise new techniques of thought as well as of method for dealing with the territory. It takes courage and insight to a degree that haven't always been evident in the history of science, eg the plate tectonics story where the pioneer was ridiculed for a decade or two and now it's accepted and being eagerly researched. Would you say that cosmology isn't scientific? It is full of the unverifiable. I wonder how you'd replicate the Big Bang - the ultimate firework! (Chuck, I have to admit to having one of the longest boyhoods on record, when it comes to fireworks. :-) ) >So, for the benefit of those who may have forgotten, the scientific method >is as follows: >1. Observe >2. Form an hypothesis based on the observation >3. TEST THE HYPOTHESIS (how one is to test visions of giant angels is beyond me) >4. Formulate a theory based on the results of the test. There's another variation that is used just as much, possibly more, these days: 1. Form an hypothesis based on applying imagination and insight to the situation 2. Observe (you might have to devise an experiment and equipment first) 3. TEST THE HYPOTHESIS 4. Formulate a theory based on the results of the test. You have to do it this way when the experiment costs a lot, because you tend to get no money if you can't show you have a good idea what you're trying to test. In any case, science generally advances on one foot after the other, so to speak, like walking. One foot is observation, the other is hypothesis-building. You can only get so far with one of them on their own. Creativity in science is gaining a lot of recognition these days. Quite an amazing number of discoveries or whole new fields have come out of the "untested", "visionary" imagination. Einstein's theory of relativity was pretty much in this category. The "proof" didn't begin to come till quite a way down the track. The guy who discovered the structure of the benzene molecule saw it in a reverie, dancing in a vision before his eyes. The idea of proof has actually slipped a long way down in its usefulness in science, because people have realised that you usually can't prove anything; you can only disprove it. That's all that your step 3. can do. There's a bit more practical humility in science, these days, around this subject than there was 100 years ago. Let's going along with that. So when you come up a theory, you try all sorts of ways to test it. As soon as it clashes with observation, you reject it and try again. Until then, it's a useful framework for dealing with the world and for suggesting new insights and observations, but is never proved. We in the TS can hold our heads high, with regard to visionary experience, if we keep an open unfixated mind and don't get trapped in failings that are as common in science as anywhere else. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:11:35 -0300 From: Subject: Unveilde Isis (Peter) Message-ID: <22DCBE2654@serv.peb.ufrj.br> BOOK III chapter III (116-145) page 120 HPB write that "church would make a good work if add a new chapter to gospel of Matthew, Mark and John, telling about the history of negation of Christ by Peter". I don't understand. The church NEVER conceals that Peter negated Jesus for three times Matthew26:69, Mark 14:63; Luke 22:57 and John 18:17. Enc. Britannica Vol9, p331 writes: to his brothers (Lk22:32), who had hesitated in his resolution at one crucial point (Mk14:66-72), and whom on the morning of the ressurrection (Lk24:12) that the ressurrected Christ first appeared. The earliest report of Peter`s priority as a witness to the ressurrection is found in the letters of paul (1Cor15:5) and this most probbably is the intent of Luke (24:34). The initial appearance to Peter in Galilee may have been included in the original ending of Mark. Given the information supplied by the gospels, it is not unexpected that Peter should emerge immediately after Jesus` death as the leader of the earliest church> Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:09:32 -0300 From: Subject: Talmud&gospel Message-ID: <22D39A7721@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Hi Jerry, discussing about Talmud, Toldoth and gospels, and historicity of Jesus you said: >What date do you assign to the Talmud? When the collection of this >material was compiled into a single work? If this is your >argument, then we would have to say that the Biblical tradition >did not begin until the publication of the first complete Bible >(I believe that was done around 1380). Evidence suggests that >the New Testament scriptures were compiled in the first and second >centuries. I think we agree on this. Ok let`s . Why did you conclude that NT were compile in the first and second centuries? Surely because many christian fathers of this ancient time make references to such material. For instance: Some christians references about Jesus lived under Pilate`s time Ignatius (40-107) bishop of Antioch and Apostolic father THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS CHAP. XI THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS CHAP. IX THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS CHAP. I Justin (165) JUSTIN MARTYR THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN CHAP. XIIL,CHAP. XL,CHAP. XLVI,CHAP. LXI THE SECOND APOLOGY OF JUSTIN FOR THE CHRISTIANS ADDRESSED TO THE ROMAN SENATE CHAP. XXX,CHAP. LXXVI,CHAP. LXXXV,CHAP. CII,CHAP. CIII Irenaeus (170) IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK I CHAP. VII,CHAP. XXV,CHAP. XXVII IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK II CHAP. XXXII IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK III CHAP. IV Clement of Alexandria (150-215) christian theologian and writer FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS.FROM THE BOOKS OF THE HYPOTYPOSES EUSEBIUS: BOOK VII. I Tim. vi. 13. "Who witnessed before Pontius Pilate." For He testified by what he did that He was Christ the Son of God. Tertulian (160-230) carthaginian theologian TERTULIAN APOLOGY CHAP. XXI.CHAP. XXI. THE PRESCRIPTION AGAINST HERETICS.CHAP. XXV.-- Origen (185-254) alexandrian writer and theologian ORIGEN AGAINST CELSUS.BOOK I.PREFACE. Let`s take an clear analysys, without prejudices. Who did mention the Jesus, as given by Talmud or Toldoth? Something like this . There no clear evidence about it. This is a strong evidence that these passagges are later insertions. Even HPB recognices (book III, chapter III, footnote) that Toldoth was mentioned for the first time by Martin at century XIII! because this text was maintained in secrecy by jews. So historically there are difficulties to say that the Jesus of Talmud or Toldoth were written BEFORE gospels. Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE .. snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:47:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: 809 Fraud Message-ID: Hi Couple of days ago, the long distance scam was broadcast in one of the networks. The 809 area code is in Dominican Republic. Most callers do not know it is an International Call and I think it is charged around a dollar a minute. The telephone company in Dominican Republic kicks back about 28 cents a minute back to the person who set up the scam. One needs to look out for the 809 area code. The scam also comes in several other flavors. One time my wife saw an ad in the newspaper to call a 800 number. When she called the number, there was a message that for more details she should call the 809 number. MK RAMADOSS On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Porreco, Nick - CPMQ wrote: > > FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick > ---------- > > > This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > > > Something that's circulating here... > > > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > > > ---------- > From: theos-roots > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM > > Hi, Here is a followup. > > M K Ramadoss > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud > > A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that > stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. > > I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. > > The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not > maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is > wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html > they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal > regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their > product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full > name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your > phone number, maybe your date of birth. > > Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! > > They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your > mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get > your > mother's maiden name. > > I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want > to make a wire funds transfer. > > As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells > callers > who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in > writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. > They > do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and > your address before they will remove you from this list. > > Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should > give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. > > So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. > And > suggest that my mother do the same. > > Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in > writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) > 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they > do not ask that people include their SSNs. > > It's real, laddies. > > Dan Stevens > > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > > . snip ... > > I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who > gets it. > > > >Subject: Credit Card Information > > > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > > > >FYI: > > > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous > >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal > >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a > >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this > >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow > >someone else to use your identity. > > > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by > >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and > >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > > > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may > >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. > >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm > >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > > > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, > >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of > >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with > >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to > >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at > >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According > >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > > > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will > >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. > >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info > >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > > > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. > >- Hope this information is helpful > > > ---End of forwarded mail > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:35:14 +0300 From: "Osmar de Carvalho" Subject: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: <199609182035.RAA08931@borges.uol.com.br> Subject: Homepage on Theosophy Aloha! Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society launched a HomePage on theosophy at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit to the page can reveal some interesting articles. There are a lot of theosophical links also, links, either in portuguese or english, to others homepages or theosophical "lists". Warm greetings from Brazil! Osmar de Carvalho Email: osmar@uol.com.br http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html ****************************************************************************** OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no homem. ****************************************************************************** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). fim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:19:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE ... snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:47:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: 809 Fraud Message-ID: Hi Couple of days ago, the long distance scam was broadcast in one of the networks. The 809 area code is in Dominican Republic. Most callers do not know it is an International Call and I think it is charged around a dollar a minute. The telephone company in Dominican Republic kicks back about 28 cents a minute back to the person who set up the scam. One needs to look out for the 809 area code. The scam also comes in several other flavors. One time my wife saw an ad in the newspaper to call a 800 number. When she called the number, there was a message that for more details she should call the 809 number. MK RAMADOSS On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Porreco, Nick - CPMQ wrote: > > FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick > ---------- > > > This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > > > Something that's circulating here... > > > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > > > ---------- > From: theos-roots > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM > > Hi, Here is a followup. > > M K Ramadoss > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud > > A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that > stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. > > I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. > > The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not > maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is > wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html > they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal > regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their > product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full > name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your > phone number, maybe your date of birth. > > Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! > > They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your > mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get > your > mother's maiden name. > > I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want > to make a wire funds transfer. > > As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells > callers > who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in > writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. > They > do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and > your address before they will remove you from this list. > > Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should > give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. > > So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. > And > suggest that my mother do the same. > > Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in > writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) > 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they > do not ask that people include their SSNs. > > It's real, laddies. > > Dan Stevens > > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > > . snip ... > > I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who > gets it. > > > >Subject: Credit Card Information > > > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > > > >FYI: > > > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous > >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal > >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a > >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this > >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow > >someone else to use your identity. > > > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by > >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and > >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > > > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may > >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. > >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm > >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > > > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, > >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of > >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with > >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to > >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at > >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According > >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > > > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will > >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. > >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info > >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > > > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. > >- Hope this information is helpful > > > ---End of forwarded mail > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:35:14 +0300 From: "Osmar de Carvalho" Subject: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: <199609182035.RAA08931@borges.uol.com.br> Subject: Homepage on Theosophy Aloha! Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society launched a HomePage on theosophy at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit to the page can reveal some interesting articles. There are a lot of theosophical links also, links, either in portuguese or english, to others homepages or theosophical "lists". Warm greetings from Brazil! Osmar de Carvalho Email: osmar@uol.com.br http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html ****************************************************************************** OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no homem. ****************************************************************************** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). fim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:47:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: 809 Fraud Message-ID: Hi Couple of days ago, the long distance scam was broadcast in one of the networks. The 809 area code is in Dominican Republic. Most callers do not know it is an International Call and I think it is charged around a dollar a minute. The telephone company in Dominican Republic kicks back about 28 cents a minute back to the person who set up the scam. One needs to look out for the 809 area code. The scam also comes in several other flavors. One time my wife saw an ad in the newspaper to call a 800 number. When she called the number, there was a message that for more details she should call the 809 number. MK RAMADOSS On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Porreco, Nick - CPMQ wrote: > > FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick > ---------- > > > This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > > > Something that's circulating here... > > > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > > > ---------- > From: theos-roots > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM > > Hi, Here is a followup. > > M K Ramadoss > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud > > A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that > stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. > > I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. > > The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not > maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is > wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html > they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal > regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their > product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full > name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your > phone number, maybe your date of birth. > > Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! > > They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your > mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get > your > mother's maiden name. > > I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want > to make a wire funds transfer. > > As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells > callers > who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in > writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. > They > do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and > your address before they will remove you from this list. > > Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should > give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. > > So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. > And > suggest that my mother do the same. > > Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in > writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) > 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they > do not ask that people include their SSNs. > > It's real, laddies. > > Dan Stevens > > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > > . snip ... > > I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who > gets it. > > > >Subject: Credit Card Information > > > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > > > >FYI: > > > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous > >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal > >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a > >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this > >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow > >someone else to use your identity. > > > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by > >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and > >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > > > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may > >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. > >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm > >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > > > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, > >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of > >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with > >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to > >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at > >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According > >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > > > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will > >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. > >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info > >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > > > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. > >- Hope this information is helpful > > > ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 09:17:00 PDT From: "Porreco, Nick - CPMQ" Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) Message-ID: <324020DA@mortar.bpa.gov> FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > Something that's circulating here... > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > From: theos-roots > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM Hi, Here is a followup. M K Ramadoss > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your phone number, maybe your date of birth. Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get your mother's maiden name. I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want to make a wire funds transfer. As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells callers who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. They do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and your address before they will remove you from this list. Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. And suggest that my mother do the same. Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they do not ask that people include their SSNs. It's real, laddies. Dan Stevens > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE .. snip ... I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who gets it. >Subject: Credit Card Information > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > >FYI: > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow >someone else to use your identity. > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. >- Hope this information is helpful ---End of forwarded mail From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:47:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: 809 Fraud Message-ID: Hi Couple of days ago, the long distance scam was broadcast in one of the networks. The 809 area code is in Dominican Republic. Most callers do not know it is an International Call and I think it is charged around a dollar a minute. The telephone company in Dominican Republic kicks back about 28 cents a minute back to the person who set up the scam. One needs to look out for the 809 area code. The scam also comes in several other flavors. One time my wife saw an ad in the newspaper to call a 800 number. When she called the number, there was a message that for more details she should call the 809 number. MK RAMADOSS On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Porreco, Nick - CPMQ wrote: > > FYI, Heads up for anyone with a pager! Nick > ---------- > > > This was sent to me by my friends at Intel. Heads up... > > > Something that's circulating here... > > > > > I received a page on my wife's pager and returned the call. After > > > listening for a couple of seconds to the recorded message, I > > > immediately hung up. I called my wife to see if she was playing a joke > > > and discovered the following: There is a pager scam going on right > > > now. Someone is sending pages to get folks to dial a # that costs $25 > > > just to dial. There is no warning so we had better get the news out to > > > everyone ASAP. The number is 809-404-5468. Don't call it! > > > > From: theos-roots > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:34AM > > Hi, Here is a followup. > > M K Ramadoss > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:37:13 -0400 > From: Vivanaut@aol.com > Subject: Re: Credit Card Fraud > > A list member forwarded today a message about a Lexis-Nexis database that > stores - and sells - your mother's maiden name. It's real, folks. > > I called the 800 number listed below, and dialed extension 3385. > > The person I spoke to said that it was all a hoax. He said that they do not > maintain Social Security numbers. That the e-mail warning I received is > wrong. But according to http://netday.iworld.com/simba/9606/96061204.html > they did offer this information earlier this year. Pressure from federal > regulators and privacy advocates forced them to pull the SSNs from their > product. The person I talked to said that they now retain only your full > name and any prior names and aliases, your last three addresses, maybe your > phone number, maybe your date of birth. > > Do they have your mother's maiden name? YES! > > They do. Your mother's maiden name is on her record. Anyone who knows your > mother's name and address - and is subscribed to their service - can get > your > mother's maiden name. > > I know of a bank which requires only the mother's maiden name when you want > to make a wire funds transfer. > > As of 09/16/96 the phone machine at the 800 number listed below tells > callers > who wish to be removed from this list that they must send the request in in > writing - they are no longer accepting removal requests over the phone. > They > do not require your SSN, but do ask that you send them your full name and > your address before they will remove you from this list. > > Curious that the e-mail note below says that when you call them, you should > give them your SSN. Sounds like they're keeping it, just not selling it. > > So I'm going to send in a request to have my name removed, just in case. > And > suggest that my mother do the same. > > Lexis/Nexis asks that requests for removal of one's name be submitted in > writing to "Att: P-Trak, P.O.Box 933, Dayton, Ohio 45401," or faxed to (513) > 865-1930. This mailing should include your full name and address, but they > do not ask that people include their SSNs. > > It's real, laddies. > > Dan Stevens > > Subj: (Fwd) Credit Card Fraud > Date: 96-09-17 15:59:07 EDT > To: listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE > > . snip ... > > I guess this is only useful to US citizens. Sorry to everyone else who > gets it. > > > >Subject: Credit Card Information > > > >This was passed onto me and thought it might of interest to all of you! > > > >FYI: > > > >Your name, social security number, current address, previous > >addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal > >information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a > >new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this > >information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow > >someone else to use your identity. > > > >You can have your name and information removed from this list by > >making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and > >then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering > > > >that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may > >also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. > >Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm > >your name has been removed is always a good idea. > > > >As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, > >Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of > >operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with > >"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to > >whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at > >the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According > >to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. > > > >I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative will > >need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. > >I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to remove our info > >from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we know. > > > >Call when you have the 5-10 minutes it takes to speak to the right person. > >- Hope this information is helpful From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:28:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Watkins Bookshop Message-ID: <8ZvJFqAwOJQyEwnE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199609181559.RAA11549@magigimmix.xs4all.nl>, wichm@xs4all.nl writes >Alan's reminiscenses brought back a flood of memories! >I think that Watkins played from the beginning of the century a vital part >in bringing together people with spiritual interests. I thought that John >Watkins was a Theosophist. I recall seeing a portrait of HPB there. It was in the shop when I took the picture. >According to the Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology Geoffrey >Watkins was next to organizer of the bookshop publisher of occult and >metaphysical books. And he was very selective in his choice. It had to be serious and worthwhile material. >"The bookshop has long been a meeting place for leading personalities in >occult sciences. Mr. Watkins father started in 1894 and was a close friend >of Madame Blavatsky, c.G.Jung, Aldous Huxley, W.B.Yeats and Aleister Crowley." Indeed he was, and many others of the day. > >I remember myself fondly the long lists of second hand books they sent out >in the fifties (and may be later). One could order books for a few >shillings. Gone are these times. See what prices are now being asked there >for the same books -almost a hundredfold. >I liked the photo on your page and wonder what books might have been >expected in the window at that time. I will check he origian photo under a glass and list what I can! >Atlantis Bookshop in Museum Street retained a bit of the atmosphere of olden >times. >Michael Rogge > ... including some of the "not-so nice" atmospheres. Geraldine Beskin, who had the Altlantis Bookshop until a couple of years back told me that she always found one corner of it quite oppressive. The 1958 edition of Crowley's "777" was published from there. Three pounds in a limited edition of 1,000. Wish I still had my copy - it would fetch a good price now! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:16:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.16.19960919151711.1d7fac54@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes >The guy who discovered the structure of the benzene molecule saw it in a >reverie, dancing in a vision before his eyes. ... and eventually we all tripped on "speed" (for a short while) (when we were young) (not any more) (never know who reads this stuff). Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:09:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels etc) Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.16.19960919151700.1d4fab8c@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes >The corresponding word would have to be "puellile", from the Latin, wouldn't >it? I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting to invent it, though. OK, we won't! :-) > >>Taking the scientific approach as best I can, I have long described all >>such contacts, whether otherwise known as devas, angles of whatever, as angels or >>Intelligences - this is the only *defintive* means I can think of to >>avoid dogmatic, theological, theosophical or other preconceptions. > >Yes, we sure can do with a baggage-free word. That's why I use it, and the more of them we can discover the better, IMHO. It beats Sanskrit. I once took an emergency route via NY to Chicago to get to a meeting on time (Brit Airways had a very delayed flight). My baggage went direct to Chicago, and I could not get it back. When I got there my original direct flight had just arrived, along with my baggage! Me, I went from London to New York JFK, cab to the airport in New Jersey (that's right!) and an internal overnight flight leaving at 0140 for Los Angeles, but stopping once in Chicago for some reason I know not. I guess it was me who was the baggage in this case ... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:01:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communications) Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.32.19960918211018.006c6844@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >Even though I appear to >communicate with some sort of intelligence, I am aware that it could turn >out to be my higher self or else what it claims to be, as long as the info >is useful and makes sense then I will continue to accept the possibility. If >it all gets silly then it is time to review if it is me or whether I have >been duped. Either could be a possibility at some time but I take it as it >comes. Common sense. and exactly the approach I try to take. Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:19:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Unveilde Isis (Peter) Message-ID: <3pTLJlADGJQyEwkP@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <22DCBE2654@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >Given the information supplied by the gospels, it is not unexpected that >Peter should emerge immediately after Jesus` death as the leader of the >earliest church> It may not be unexpected, but it did not happen. The leader of the earliest church was James. See Paul's letters and Acts! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:35:30 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960920044746.1da7ab36@iprolink.co.nz> At 05:29 PM 18/09/96 -0400, you wrote: Chuck, >You bring up a pile of interesting things. >My hope is that the more we can analyze the electrical activity in the >brain, the sooner we can prove clairvoyance and disprove some of the >nonsense surrounding it. I'm all for dispelling nonsense. >The ultimate goal is to have instruments that can take what >the brain sees and make video recordings of it. I have been told that >such instruments do, in fact, exist, but they are kept under tight control >by various defense agencies. Yes, they're probably $50,000,000 a pop. There are some amazing technologies around now, for "visualizing" brain function, and some amazing things coming out from it all, already. So much has been discovered in just the last 5 years or so, and apparently researchers are expecting it to snowball. >Then maybe we can finally get to the truth of all this. Ah, yes. Nearer, ever nearer. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 19 Sep 96 08:09:37 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: What's happened to VOS? Message-ID: <960919120937_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM> Hi folks, This morning I noticed that theos-roots contained many bytes and eagerly opened the digest, thinking that the VOS discussion had returned. To my dismay, the digest was stuffed with warnings about credit fraud, surely a public service, but which had already been posted to theos-l. I really enjoyed the VOS discussion and would be sad to see it disappear. I can't carry it alone, because I don't have that kind of background or knowledge. Could we come to some kind of final decision in the near future as to whether the VOS study is closed? That way I can unsubscribe from roots and no longer receive duplicate posts. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:55:46 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: strange things are happening Message-ID: <199609191403.KAA22775@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I fully agree with Alan's statement as reproduced below. Also, Alan says that somthing or someone has pointed him in the direction of where to find a certain information he was seeking. That's happened to me too. Liesel >here is only a personal feeling of 'rightness' that one can go by in these >matters and one has to be vigilant all the time about the energy emitted by >what is happening. None of us have to believe anything coming from the >invisible realms but it is hard to deny that there is no invisible realms >even if one cannot prove anything much about them. It probably comes down to >one's personal belief system and how flexible it is. Even though I appear to >communicate with some sort of intelligence, I am aware that it could turn >out to be my higher self or else what it claims to be, as long as the info >is useful and makes sense then I will continue to accept the possibility. If >it all gets silly then it is time to review if it is me or whether I have >been duped. Either could be a possibility at some time but I take it as it >comes. >> >>Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:12:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960919101258_288395603@emout05.mail.aol.com> Murray, It depends on which cosmology you mean. The Big Bang hypothesis was created after the leftover background "noise" of it appeared on an ocilloscope at Bell Laboratory when they were testing the first commications sattelite. Without objective, and by that I mean available to people other than the prime experimenter, data, all you have is anecdotal evidence, which does not mean that it is not true, or the conclusions drawn from it are not true. But there is no way of really knowing if it is or it isn't. Unsupported testimony is not science and there is no way any clairvoyant testimony can be supported right now. It may be true, or it may not be. We have no way of knowing and to accept the idea that such work can be scientific in the same way that mixing nitrogen, carbon and sulfur is is pure nonsense. At least we can get a bang out of that. Show me the data and then come up a with a way to replicate it and then I'll call it science. But I'm beginning to think that the problem we have is the confusion of the word science with the word knowledge. Science is a method of discovery, a method of gaining knowledge. The two are not the same. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:08:49 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: not a lack of understanding Message-ID: <199609191516.LAA27847@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >rom: Murray Stentiford > I use the word because >it has become associated with Hodson's and others' work, but it has its own >load of baggage and limitations and I'm not particularly comfortable using >it. How about saying "people who have ESP"? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:19:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: Hi I am very glad to see your message. Internet is going to change the way we are able to reach everyone interested in Theosophy. The fact Brazilian members have put together a Homepage once again points to the basic fact that the strength and usefulness of Theosophy is fundamentally due to individual dedicated members rather than an organization. I wish to congratulate everyone involved and I will visit the homepage. I am also glad you mentioned about the links to other related homepages. It is these links that encourage visitors to visit homepages. A static homepage with no links has extremely limited usefulness and in due course no one will be visiting it, thus defeating the very purpose of a home page. MK Ramadoss On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Osmar de Carvalho wrote: > > Subject: Homepage on Theosophy > > Aloha! > > Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society > launched a HomePage on theosophy at: > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit > to the page can reveal some interesting articles. > There are a lot of theosophical links also, > links, either in portuguese or english, to others > homepages or theosophical "lists". > > Warm greetings from Brazil! > > Osmar de Carvalho > Email: osmar@uol.com.br > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > ****************************************************************************** > OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao > de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; > 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e > 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no > homem. > ****************************************************************************** > ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br > - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ > - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de > novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - > Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), > e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > fim > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:51:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: Hi I just visited the home page. They have put together stunning graphics and lots of links. A job very well done and comprehensive. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Osmar de Carvalho wrote: > > Subject: Homepage on Theosophy > > Aloha! > > Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society > launched a HomePage on theosophy at: > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit > to the page can reveal some interesting articles. > There are a lot of theosophical links also, > links, either in portuguese or english, to others > homepages or theosophical "lists". > > Warm greetings from Brazil! > > Osmar de Carvalho > Email: osmar@uol.com.br > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > ****************************************************************************** > OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao > de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; > 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e > 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no > homem. > ****************************************************************************** > ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br > - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ > - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de > novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - > Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), > e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:59:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: In message <199609182035.RAA08931@borges.uol.com.br>, Osmar de Carvalho writes > >Subject: Homepage on Theosophy > >Aloha! > >Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society >launched a HomePage on theosophy at: > >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > >If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit >to the page can reveal some interesting articles. >There are a lot of theosophical links also, >links, either in portuguese or english, to others >homepages or theosophical "lists". > >Warm greetings from Brazil! I will check this one out, though I will only be able to follow the English parts. I hope it will be useful enough to add a link from my own homepage(s)! > ... and greetings from England! Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:19:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: Hi I am very glad to see your message. Internet is going to change the way we are able to reach everyone interested in Theosophy. The fact Brazilian members have put together a Homepage once again points to the basic fact that the strength and usefulness of Theosophy is fundamentally due to individual dedicated members rather than an organization. I wish to congratulate everyone involved and I will visit the homepage. I am also glad you mentioned about the links to other related homepages. It is these links that encourage visitors to visit homepages. A static homepage with no links has extremely limited usefulness and in due course no one will be visiting it, thus defeating the very purpose of a home page. MK Ramadoss On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Osmar de Carvalho wrote: > > Subject: Homepage on Theosophy > > Aloha! > > Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society > launched a HomePage on theosophy at: > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit > to the page can reveal some interesting articles. > There are a lot of theosophical links also, > links, either in portuguese or english, to others > homepages or theosophical "lists". > > Warm greetings from Brazil! > > Osmar de Carvalho > Email: osmar@uol.com.br > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > ****************************************************************************** > OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao > de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; > 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e > 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no > homem. > ****************************************************************************** > ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br > - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ > - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de > novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - > Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), > e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > fim > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:51:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Homepage on Theosophy Message-ID: Hi I just visited the home page. They have put together stunning graphics and lots of links. A job very well done and comprehensive. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Osmar de Carvalho wrote: > > Subject: Homepage on Theosophy > > Aloha! > > Some brazilian members of the Theosophical Society > launched a HomePage on theosophy at: > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > If you can read in "portuguese" or spanish, one visit > to the page can reveal some interesting articles. > There are a lot of theosophical links also, > links, either in portuguese or english, to others > homepages or theosophical "lists". > > Warm greetings from Brazil! > > Osmar de Carvalho > Email: osmar@uol.com.br > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html > > ****************************************************************************** > OBJETIVOS DA SOCIEDADE TEOSOFICA: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1 - Formar um nucleo da Fraternidade Universal da Humanidade, sem distincao > de raca, credo, sexo, casta ou cor; > 2 - Encorajar o estudo de Religiao Comparada, Filosofia e Ciencia; e > 3 - Investigar as leis inexplicadas da natureza e os poderes latentes no > homem. > ****************************************************************************** > ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO/CONTATOS *** ATENCAO CONTAT > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - Para saber mais sobre a Lista Teosofia, e-mail para jbarbosa@ufba.br > - Para saber mais sobre a Loja Teosofica Virtual (Inst. Teosofico Pitagoras): > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/ > - Para saber mais sobre a Sociedade Teosofica no Brasil (Fundada em 17 de > novembro de 1919). Sede Nacional: SGAS, Quadra 603, Modulo 20; 70200-630 - > Brasilia - DF. Telefone (061)226-0662, (061)226-1036; FAX (061)226-3703), > e-mail para isis@stb.org.br (em implantacao, substituindo st@cr-df.rnp.br). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:58:38 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Signposts and the Scientific Method Message-ID: <3241C20E.1A34@worldnet.att.net> >Richard Ihle writes> >I like the scientific method, also. However, I am usually careful >not to get carried into the realm of science-worship by it. Indeed, >sometimes I find myself wondering if the entirety of the scientific >method is not really based upon one of the classical "logical >fallacies": ... Within my own universe model, outlined in Enochian Physics, we all have experiences that are shared with others (where the I-Not-I monads overlap) and experiences that are unique and not shared (areas where no overlapping occurs). The scientific method only works for those areas of overlapping experiences--i.e., on the physical plane where general agreement can be reached, and observations can be verified, within tolerances, by others. When we leave the physical plane and go out into the higher planes, overlapping decreases and the sharing of experiences decreases. Thus the inner planes are sometimes said to be "subjective." Certain principles still function for all of us, but except for a few general areas of agreement (which I call signposts) there is little verification possible of any one person's experiences. For example, it is pretty much agreed that inhabitants exist on every level and subplane of the inner worlds. However, when we try to describe these, we find little agreement. I agree with Chuck in that the scientific method should be used whenever possible. However, when dealing with the inner worlds, this can only be done at the signposts, and even there we seldom have 100% verification. This is largely because we judge these experiences against our own cultural, sexual, racial, and religious backgrounds, and even these are mixed in with our personal hopes, wishes, fears, likes and dislikes, and so on. In dreams, these signposts exist too. Jung called them archetypal images, and said that they are from the collective unconscious. Here he is providing us with a theory based upon his observations, and thus is in agreement with the scientific method as much as possible. We need to do the same for occult and magical experiences. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 19:10:10 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Thrust and parry in the NYRB Message-ID: <199609192310.TAA13996@leo.vsla.edu> The current issue of the New York Review of Books contains a the first part of a lengthy article by Frederick Crews, "The Consolation of Theosophy." It is a favorable review of Peter Washington's Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, as well as an opinion piece on esotericism in general (he's agin it.) I get praised a little and attacked more, portrayed as "pious" and "deferential" toward HPB (tell it to any of a dozen mean Theosophists!). I have sent in a response. If anyone wants to see what Crews writes about me and my reply, I'll forward it you. Defending myself against the charge of being a true believer Theosophist was easy and fun. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:13:21 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels etc) Message-ID: <960919191320_526114628@emout01.mail.aol.com> Maybe it was an angel that had too much to drink and got stuck in the system. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:14:34 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson (Ex: Angels & Communication) Message-ID: <960919191434_526115514@emout08.mail.aol.com> Murray, Amen. I hope this gets through. A number of my responses to this list have been bounced for some unknown reason. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:42:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: strange things are happening Message-ID: In message <199609191403.KAA22775@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >I fully agree with Alan's statement as reproduced below. Also, Alan says >that somthing or someone has pointed him in the direction of where to find a >certain information he was seeking. That's happened to me too. Actually, it is Bee's writing, and I am agreeing with it. > >Liesel > >>here is only a personal feeling of 'rightness' that one can go by in these >>matters and one has to be vigilant all the time about the energy emitted by >>what is happening. None of us have to believe anything coming from the >>invisible realms but it is hard to deny that there is no invisible realms >>even if one cannot prove anything much about them. It probably comes down to >>one's personal belief system and how flexible it is. Even though I appear to >>communicate with some sort of intelligence, I am aware that it could turn >>out to be my higher self or else what it claims to be, as long as the info >>is useful and makes sense then I will continue to accept the possibility. If >>it all gets silly then it is time to review if it is me or whether I have >>been duped. Either could be a possibility at some time but I take it as it >>comes. >>> >>>Alan > --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:02:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Thrust and parry in the NYRB Message-ID: Paul: It is nice to see your post. I had read some of your posts on other newsgroups via dejanews. I would like to see what Crews says about you. Please post it here and I am sure there are others who may also be interested. MK Ramadoss On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > The current issue of the New York Review of Books contains a > the first part of a lengthy article by Frederick Crews, "The > Consolation of Theosophy." It is a favorable review of Peter > Washington's Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, as well as an opinion > piece on esotericism in general (he's agin it.) I get praised > a little and attacked more, portrayed as "pious" and > "deferential" toward HPB (tell it to any of a dozen mean > Theosophists!). > > I have sent in a response. If anyone wants to see what Crews > writes about me and my reply, I'll forward it you. Defending > myself against the charge of being a true believer Theosophist > was easy and fun. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:35:04 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Talmud and Gospel Message-ID: <9609200235.AA10845@toto.csustan.edu> Hi Abrantes, Abrantes: >Ok let`s stories, and whatever other contemporary evidence is extant>. OK, but the list of "contemporary evidence" is very short. We have edited versions of Paul's Epistles (I am not including the pastorals of Timothy and Titus and some other material, which are now understood to be of a later date and not written by Paul). We also have to exclude the Gospels because they are all of a later date and cannot be linked to the apostles that bear their names. The Gnostic gospels are also written too late, but are helpful to broaden our understanding of what was going on at that period, and give us another point of view concerning the same data. The one exception may be the Gospel of Thomas, which was written in a very primitive style, and may be closer to the source document from which the Gospels came. Regarding the church fathers: Ignatius wrote too late. If he had written in 40 CE rather than having been born then, it would have made all of the difference in the world. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement and Tertulian all wrote in the second and third century, therefore they were only repeating an established tradition which they were powerless to confirm or deny via independent evidence. For the Jewish evidence, we have Josephus, and those parts of the Talmud that are generally accepted to have been copied from the pre-temple period. Thanks to the archaeologists and more than one miracle, the Dead Sea Scrolls are becoming available for the first time in two thousand years. They have already yielded a tremendous amount of lost information concerning the period when the biblical Jesus would have lived, and scholars are still searching for information to confirm the Gospel accounts. So far, they have been unsuccessful. Besides the contemporary mythologies concerning Adonis, Sampson, Heracles, Mithra etc., this is about all I can think of that still exists. The Syric documents might be another possibility, but I know almost nothing about them. I have translations of them here in the our library, but never have had the opportunity to study them. Abrantes: >Why did you conclude that NT were compile in the first and >second centuries? Surely because many christian fathers of this ancient time make references to such material. For instance: Some christians references about Jesus lived under Pilate`s time. JHE I am just repeating the consensus of opinion among biblical historians, though the exact dates are still very loose. The evidence that biblical scholars use is complex. For instance, some considerations concern stylistic uses that might pin down the area and time that the writer might have lived. Also, the usages of names and titles can sometimes pin down dates. Therefore, sometimes a document can be dated by a particular usage of style, or by the mention of a city or monument they may not have existed after a certain known date. Regarding the Church fathers: they can only give evidence as to the lateness of the gospels, not to their alleged antiquity. When a church father quotes from a particular Gospel, that is taken as evidence that the said gospel was extant at the time that father wrote his commentary. But if that father lived in the third century, that only confirms that the gospel was extant as early as the third century, but does not prove that it was around at an earlier date. On the other hand, if a church father does not quote a Gospel when it would have been appropriate for him to do so, that is taken as a possible indication that the father was not aware of that Gospel, or that it was not yet written. Abrantes >Let`s take an clear analysys, without prejudices. Who did >mention the Jesus, as given by Talmud or Toldoth? Something like >this . There no >clear evidence about it. JHE What kind of "clear evidence" do you require? Abrantes >This is a strong evidence that these passagges are later >insertions. Even HPB recognices (book III, chapter III, footnote) that Toldoth was mentioned for the first time by Martin at century XIII! because this text was maintained in secrecy by jews. So historically there are difficulties to say that the Jesus of Talmud or Toldoth were written BEFORE gospels. JHE Yes, the Toldoth story was kept secret because the Christians held political power over the Jews for well over a thousand years. Between the fifth and fifteenth centuries, Christians, operating under the policies and encouragement of the Church, made regular raids upon the Jewish libraries and scriptoriums in order to destroy their scriptures and records. Because of these raids, the Jews have no original copies of the Toldoth story (or anything else for that matter) dated before the XIII century. But is it fair for the Church to destroy Jewish records and scriptures and then to discount their authenticity because the originals no longer exist? IMO, it is not fair. I have said twice before that the Toldoth story was mentioned by one or two of the Church fathers in the Second century. That long article you sent us concerning the Jewish arguments against Jesus also documents this, though I don't have the time to search for that passage. Theosophist scholar GRS Mead also mentions the same thing in his book. I also recall from reading Mead many years ago, that Justinian made mention of the Toldoth story and ordered all copies to be destroyed. My guess is, if the Christians had not been so intent upon destroying all of the Jewish records, we would have a lot more information about the origins of Christianity. I have to conclude that the thousand year holocaust carried out by the Church against the Jewish religion is solely responsible for the destruction of historical documents that might have thrown much light upon the birth and development of Christianity. In the beginning of this discussion I mentioned that the winners are the ones who tell the history. We agreed upon this point. So far you appear to be advancing the evidence of the winners and discounting as invalid or doubtful what little evidence remains of the looser's point of view. Do you agree? In the interest of a "clear analysys, without prejudices" I think we might be able to create a more level playing field if we were to look more critically at the evidence the winners have chosen to keep and show us, and give more latitude to what little evidence remains of the looser's point of view. Jerry From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:05:04 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: not a lack of understanding Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960921041720.1d2f4e8e@iprolink.co.nz> Liesel, [Murray, re the word "clairvoyance"] >I use the word because >it has become associated with Hodson's and others' work, but it has its >own load of baggage and limitations and I'm not particularly comfortable >using it. [Liesel] >How about saying "people who have ESP"? Yes, I guess it's a pretty good term, though when you think of "extra sensory", it has to mean extra to the physical senses, but doesn't actually say so and theosophists are notorious for entertaining the idea that there are other senses. Hodson, as I guess you know, often used the term "superphysical perception" which seems to get over that problem, but is a bit of a mouthful unless you shorten it to SP, but is that catchy enough? It's hard to please some people. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:14:23 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960921132639.1b2f3dce@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck, >But I'm beginning to think that the problem we have is the confusion of >the word science with the word knowledge. Science is a method of >discovery, a method of gaining knowledge. The two are not the same. Exactly, but science has to be big enough to deal with *all* the stages of gaining knowledge, from the very earliest when all is darkness and chaos, to the latest when it has turned into common knowledge. >Show me the data and then come up a with a way to replicate it and then >I'll call it science. That's a bit too narrow for me. Although cosmology is inherently unrepeatable, it is undoubtedly science - a young science, but science nevertheless. The scientific method can still be applied; you just find suitable hypotheses and methods to test them. In cosmology, you build some kind of mathematical model round a particular insight, then you test its predictions against various things you *can* observe, like the properties of light coming from distant galaxies. You begin with small, modest, or maybe very general hypotheses where you have a chance of checking them out. One of the key points about science is that it revolves around and is funnelled through, the human sensory system. If 99.9 % of the population have just 5 well-developed senses, most people are going to think that's all that science is concerned with, but there's no need to exclude the others with an extra sense from the scope of science. That's where the real exciting stuff, the next frontier, is. If science can't cope with it, it's still too small, but nothing a bit of growing up might not fix, though. >Without objective, and by that I mean available to people other than the >prime experimenter, data, all you have is anecdotal evidence, which does >not mean that it is not true, or the conclusions drawn from it are not true. But there is no way of really knowing if it is or it isn't. Yes, this is a key point. Duplication is of course hard to find when embryonic or extremely rare faculties are involved, but the world of inner experience is not devoid of it. The experience of light in various ways, is common, right down through history. The growing mass of accounts of Near Death Experiences show many kinds of similarity as well as many kinds of individual differences. The same goes for mystical experiences in which certain themes recur, in differenct combinations or variations in each case. There's a lot of info. being gathered on these. See the front of the Quest book called "The Common Experience" by Cohen and Phipps where they describe a Religious Experience Research Unit (now under a different name in England. >Unsupported testimony is not science That's too categorical an exclusion for me. Science should be big enough to look at anything, even if it doesn't know what it means yet! >and there is no way any clairvoyant testimony can be supported right now. I wouldn't draw that line there. Problem is it's one of those assertions of a negative that are impossible to prove. Somebody could be quietly doing accurate, verifiable, clairvoyance in their own backyard and you might never hear of it. It only takes one to blow the hypothesis, and you never know what's around the corner. Hodson did a preliminary trial of examining fossil fragments with inner senses, in close cooperation with a scientist in the field, in South Africa in the 60's. In theosophical terms, attempting to look at the akashic record associated with them, to see if he could pick up scenes or images of the creatures that they came from. He managed to see several kinds of ape-like creatures, and described their general appearance, the environment, and numerous anatomical features like how much the jaw was protruding etc. Hodson reported that the experience was like going down a dark tunnel and emerging into the light of day of a scene where the creature was. It seemed to lock into "real time" to the extent that when the scientist asked whether the thing had a flat nose, Hodson would say "I can't see just now because it's looking the other way. ... Oh, it's turned around now. Yes, it has a fairly flat nose." kind of thing. The scientist collated the many different features Hodson described in several repeated sessions, and compared them with current knowledge, then classified them according to whether they agreed with current knowledge, or disagreed, or there was no current knowledge to compare them with. It was more detailed than this, and this is just a quick outline. Anyway, Hodson scored extremely highly on the points that could be compared with current knowledge and agreed with it, way beyond any score that might have sent an ESP experimenter into orbit. I've got more detailed info. somewhere in the midst of our stuff since since we moved house not so long ago. I've also corresponded with the scientist concerned, so he's real. (Or is he? Maybe there's a ghost writer out there .... We may never know. >It may be true, or it may not be. We have no way of knowing and to accept >the idea that such work can be scientific in the same way that mixing >nitrogen, carbon and sulfur is is pure nonsense. It would be, but that's not what I'm suggesting. It can still be scientifically dealt with. >Show me the data and then come up with a way to replicate it and then >I'll call it science. Yes, I'd love supported, repeated evidence from inner perception too, but it's a way off in the future as far as public science goes, and meantime, we can be thoroughly scientific in the way we deal with what we've got. It takes a mind that is courageous, creative, imaginative, well disciplined and superbly flexible. That means able to hold hypotheses and imaginings in mind while examining them, then *letting them go* when finished with. Failure to let go is part of the cause of superstition and conservatism and resistance to change throughout the whole human race. Even theosophists and scientists can do with a bit more of the ability to let go, now and then. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:39:38 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Hodsoon & science Message-ID: <199609210147.VAA14976@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >nsupported testimony is not science and there is no way any clairvoyant >testimony can be supported right now. It may be true, or it may not There are ESP experiemnts written up during which several clairvoyants have perceived the same phenomenon similarly, if not the same. Also, I've noticed that if one goes from the ways of shamans in one civilisation to the ways of shamans in another cilivlisation, great similarities exist. At least that's been my experience, which doesn't include all the various shamans under the sun. Or let's say what Harry taught matches recognizably what Serge King taught. Harry came from an Asiatic Indian tradition, Serge is Hawaiian. I can frequently translate from one system to the other. lately Alan wrote something involving ESP around Lockerbie, and what he wwrote coincides perfectly with what I've been tuaght happens over here. So we're getting nearer to that experiements can be replicated. I was also just now thinking of Serge's book "Earth Energies", where he describes past experiments with prana, and present ones he's done, and some which still need doing. Again, what various experimenters discovered about prana overlaps. The past experiments are repeatable. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:16:12 -0300 From: Subject: James or Peter? Message-ID: <199F5A1450@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Alan said: >The leader of the earliest church was James. See Paul's letters and Acts! Wrong. Galatians 2:9 and Acts 15 says that at first meeting at Jerusalem, the leaders of the the church was James, Peter and John. Acts 15 show the intervention of Peter (v.7), Barnabe and Paul (v.12) and James (v.13). So was recogniced as one of the leaders of the church at Jerusalem and then James was not the only leader of the earliest church. James was also recogniced as one of the leaders of the church of Jerusalem at Acts 21:18. Abrantes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:14:43 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960921101441_482815171@emout08.mail.aol.com> Murray, One thing I think that I have failed to make clear is that I do not worship at the hallowed hall of SCIENCE. I don't worship the word and therefore I don't see any need to try to make things fit into it. But the word does have certain meanings and some of the attempts Theosophists have used in the last hundred years to try to jam things into it have done terrible violence to both. There is no reason why we cannot take information and say that the classical scientific method does not apply to it. That does not necessarily make the information untrue, or the method of gaining it invalid, it merely makes it different. It may be that the best way to pursue these matters is to go off on our own and say to hell with science and the scientific community. It won't make visions of angels any easier to believe, but it will allow for a broader range of knowledge of things that are possible yet unprovable. So to get back to the original discussion, I do not deny that Hodson was actually clairvoyant nor do I contend that all clairvoyants are crazy. Dora Kunz is one of the sanest people I know (and maybe one of the few sane people I know). My objection is to the assertions that go along with the clairvoyance. But the fact that some things he did were the result of genuine paranormal ability does not mean that all the things he did were. And there is the matter of his mental state aside from the clairvoyant activity. It is probably necessary to try to separate those two things as much as possible in attempting to determine what he really did accomplish, but there were things that simply cannot be accepted. Or to put it bluntly, if you think I make fun of Robert Muller, just think of what I would be doing with Master Pollidentus if I were doing this fifty years ago. One of the problems with Geoffrey Hodson may be that a good satirist never heard of him while he was in his prime, but then humor is not a common thing in Theosophy, (though to his lasting credit John Algeo does try) witness the lame attempts at it in the notorious Hodge Podge Lodge that we in the US section are forced to endure at every convention. One of the things I've discovered as I do my own research is that we need our skeptics and people to find things funny about us to keep us from believing our own press releases. Hodson probably could have benefited from someone who would have given him a good kick in the rear every now and then just to remind him that he was still human. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:19:07 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960921131905_482876571@emout11.mail.aol.com> ~Ad hominem~, of course, is a faulty sort of logic where ideas are not judged for their own merit; rather, personal circumstances or motivations of the individual are used to determine the worth of the ideas. Generally, I agree that this is not such a good way to proceed. However, is it possible that what might be called "esoteric studies"--and here I am especially thinking of those subjects like "magic" which have an application to or association with personal adeptship--may be an exception? Since we have seen that conventional science is of little help in determining the worth of "theosophically derived" knowledge, is it really so unreasonable to want to take a closer-than-usual look at the personal lives of individuals who espouse such knowledge? In short, shouldn't one be able to see that they were able to do things, or avoid things, that those without the esoteric knowledge couldn't? Here, unfortunately, we run into a "catch-22": since the life's work of these people often seems to be ~just to~ promulgate the knowledge that they have, they often become extraordinarily successful ~merely as~ writers, speakers, leaders, etc. In other words, there seems to be a shortage of well-known role models who took esoteric knowlege and made themselves healthier, richer, more productive, more harmonious, etc. in other fields or in more conventional areas by means of it. I don't know . . . sometimes I look at the large cast of characters not only in the esoteric studies field but also even in the contemporary meditation area and often I am hard-put to come up with anybody I would want the children of my acquaintance to turn out like. For example, Aleister Crowley. I remember one phase of my life where I read quite a bit by and about him. There were some things which I thought were valuable. However, in the back of my mind was always this thought: "Here is a man who reputedly knows so much and has all these powers, but his life story, when all is said and done, is basically that he started off with all the advantages of an inherited fortune and ended up more-or-less bankrupt and a drug addict to boot." [Correct me if I am wrong in this.] Furthermore, I gradually got the distinct feeling that he may not have been the most ~wholesome~ guy around. Thus, would I really be so wrong by including a little ad hominem in my assessment of old Aleister? I don't need anyone's permission to do this, of course. I do it all the time. If the esoteric figure died a little too young, seemed a tad unhealthy in mind or body, made too many screw-ups in the conduct of daily affairs, was wantonly hurtful to others, etc., I regularly add that right into the mix. And in the extreme case; for example, when I learn that there is a good likelihood that somebody may have died of aids as a result of drinking blood as part of his magical practices? Hey, all other ad hominems being equal, I just naturally start reading someone else for tips about handling my own life--tips which don't involve coagulating. . . . Might one not agree that at least some small consideration of a person's apart-from-fame, private life and developed abilities may be helpful when it comes to judging the validity of his or her esoteric ideas? As far as I'm concerned, anyway, if a person intimates that they have preternatural powers, I start the questioning by asking them how much they can bench press. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 21 Sep 96 14:39:16 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960921183916_72723.2375_FHP24-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >So to get back to the original discussion, I do not deny that Hodson was >actually clairvoyant nor do I contend that all clairvoyants are crazy. Dora >Kunz is one of the sanest people I know (and maybe one of the few sane people >I know). . . Or to put it bluntly, if you think I make fun of Robert Muller, just think of >what I would be doing with Master Pollidentus if I were doing this fifty years ago. >One of the problems with Geoffrey Hodson may be that a good satirist never heard of him >while he was in his prime, but then humor is not a common thing in Theosophy, >(though to his lasting credit John Algeo does try) witness the lame attempts >at it in the notorious Hodge Podge Lodge that we in the US section are forced >to endure at every convention. >One of the things I've discovered as I do my own research is that we need our >skeptics and people to find things funny about us to keep us from believing >our own press releases. >Hodson probably could have benefited from someone who would have given him a >good kick in the rear every now and then just to remind him that he was still >human. Why not apply for the job? Hodson may have passed on, but I'm sure there are plenty of other TS members that would qualify for some rear-end reality training, humorous critiqueing and down-to-earth skepticism. They might even install you in their home, so you could be there at a moment's notice to show them the error of their ways. Then, again, why bother? There's no money, name or fame in criticizing a bunch of Theosophists. Why not take those razor sharp perceptions and scientific know-how and apply them to the computer industry! Every one knows how defective softwere is these days. (At this very moment, my husband is sending off a nasty email to Corel.) Bone up on programming and networking and sell your services to the highest bidder. Who knows, even Bill Gates might give you a call. ; - ) -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:47:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Quest Bookstore Seattle WWW Message-ID: Hi I just visited the homepage of Quest Bookstore at Seattle at: http://www.nsynch.com/~quest/ It is very well done and has a on line searchable catalog of books at the store. This is very useful. In addition it has links to other theosophical and "spiritual" sites and this makes it very inviting for visitors. Setting up a home page is one thing. The more difficult task is to make people come and look at your home page. The links are going to be the key to make people come by. Those who are responsible for setting up the Quest homepage are to be congratulated. You may want to visit it and see for yourself. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:20:30 +0300 From: "Osmar de Carvalho" Subject: Re: Heyy!! Message-ID: <199609220320.AAA10034@borges.uol.com.br> > Hey!! > Segunda llamada, segunda, a todas las personas que estan conectadas a este > foro teossfico en espaqol, por favor contesten para saber si viven azn, por lo > menos tengan la amabilidad de cedir algo, ya contestaron dos personas, Eric > Escalante de Panama y M.K. Ramadoss (que no habla espaqol, como ven?), > por otro lado se que hay otros veinte de ustedes que estan por ahm, por favor > hay que revivir este forito, contesten!!! A se me olvidaba "to Osmar > Carvalho, please man send again the message to this forum, because I did > not receive it complete, thanks" y Osmar Carvhalo de Brasil que tampoco > escribe masque en inglis y claro en portuguis (como ven esto otro?) > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez > jecruz@planet.com.mx > ------------------------------------------------------------ > !Si hombre! Comenza una discussion y participaremos de ella! Nuestro spanhol no es de los mejores, mas hacemos o que es possible. :-) Abrazos fraternales desde Brasil! Hasta su reply! Osmar de Carvalho .'. osmar@uol.com.br http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:56:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: James or Peter? Message-ID: In message <199F5A1450@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >Alan said: >>The leader of the earliest church was James. See Paul's letters and Acts! > >Wrong. Galatians 2:9 and Acts 15 says that at first meeting at Jerusalem, >the leaders of the the church was James, Peter and John. Acts 15 show the >intervention of Peter (v.7), Barnabe and Paul (v.12) and James (v.13). So >was recogniced as one of the leaders of the church at Jerusalem and then >James was not the only leader of the earliest church. James was also >recogniced as one of the leaders of the church of Jerusalem at Acts 21:18. > >Abrantes > Not wrong. Then, as now, the custom would be to list the hierarchy in order of rank, with the head of the organisation first. There is *still* a remnant church deriving *directly* from the Jerusalem Community of Nazarene (Christians and Christianity had not yet been invented) who claim James as head of the Church, and of their own tradition in particular. One part of this is the Syro-Chaldean Church in India, under its Metropolitan, Mar Aprem, c/o Mar Narsai Press, Trichur, Kerala, South India. Other remmants survive among the Kurde in Northern Iran/Iraq/Turkey and a very few remote villages in Israel/Syria. All are most likely "Nestorians" though in India at least, they did not know they were Nestorians until someone told them in the 19th Century, claiming - as they still do - that they merely followed the traditions of the Church as they had received them from antiquity. They had never heard of the Council of Ephesus which condemned their beliefs as hetrical ... In any event, if you are given the benefit of any doubt, Peter, who is named second after James, is still only names as *one of the leaders*. In one of Paul's references, he speaks only of James, and in a manner which suggesys that only James was present in Paul's visit to Jerusalem. So - the evidence is at best ambiguous. It is clear surely by now - it is to me - that you wish to present all and any evidence to support the claims of the Bishop of Rome and *his* Church, which Church has little or no influence in the first two to three-hundred years of Christian History. I intend therefore, and with reluctance, to terminate discussions with you. I have said enough on this list to make it clear that the scientific and historical approach to Christianity and Church History is not found *exclusively* in pro-Christian and pro-Roman documents and traditions, which was, from the theosophical point of view, the main thrust of Madame Blavatsy's arguments in "Isis Unveiled" and elsewhere, as with many scholars since. Respectfully, A.M.Bain, D.D. --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:46:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: In message <960921131905_482876571@emout11.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Might one not agree that at least some small consideration of a person's >apart-from-fame, private life and developed abilities may be helpful when it >comes to judging the validity of his or her esoteric ideas? IMO the validity or otherwise of anyone's esoteric *ideas* is something that can only be tested by considering the ideas on their own merit. Now esoteric *claims* - that's another matter. > >As far as I'm concerned, anyway, if a person intimates that they have >preternatural powers, I start the questioning by asking them how much they >can bench press. . . "Preternatural Powers!" Quite a mouthful! Personally, I worry about *anyone* who tells me they have "powers". Like some others, I have certain *abilities*. The fact that I have them depends, so far as I can tell, upon *two* factors. The first, and probably the most important, is an *inherited* disposition - it's in there somewhere among genes, chromosomes, or whatever. Like it runs in the family. The second factor is the development of what is already there in consequence of having studied things "occult" and "psychic". Without the inherent disposition, however, no amount of study will enable those abilities and faculties. Concerning your "test" question, I cannot bench press at all - arthritis prevents these days, but I was lousy at it before. This is a disposition and an ability or faculty which I possess in small measure. Sooo - in approaching these matters, lifestyle is something which may be important for the student to apply to self, but is of little value in assessing the worth of those from whom I may learn more about esoteric matters. My first lessons in astrology were received from a male homosexual who suffered from such a severe curvature of the spine that he was permanently doubled over. Astrology was the *only* thing I learned from him - he was a very good astrologer. I liked him as a person, but there was no way I would have wanted to share his lifestyle. For one thing, he was permanently homeless, and had a fancy for 17-year olds, which I was always amazed to note he had no trouble in making it with! I have learned various things from people who subscibe to the list, and of whose personal lifestyle and habits I know very little or nothing whatever. I don't even believe everything Chuck tells us about himself ..... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:32:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: Hi, Ann: I enjoyed your post. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > Chuck the Heretic: > >So to get back to the original discussion, I do not deny that Hodson was > >actually clairvoyant nor do I contend that all clairvoyants are crazy. Dora > >Kunz is one of the sanest people I know (and maybe one of the few sane people > >I know). . . Or to put it bluntly, if you think I make fun of Robert Muller, > just think of > >what I would be doing with Master Pollidentus if I were doing this fifty years > ago. > >One of the problems with Geoffrey Hodson may be that a good satirist never > heard of him > >while he was in his prime, but then humor is not a common thing in Theosophy, > >(though to his lasting credit John Algeo does try) witness the lame attempts > >at it in the notorious Hodge Podge Lodge that we in the US section are forced > >to endure at every convention. > >One of the things I've discovered as I do my own research is that we need our > >skeptics and people to find things funny about us to keep us from believing > >our own press releases. > >Hodson probably could have benefited from someone who would have given him a > >good kick in the rear every now and then just to remind him that he was still > >human. > > Why not apply for the job? Hodson may have passed on, but I'm sure there are > plenty of other TS members that would qualify for some rear-end reality > training, humorous critiqueing and down-to-earth skepticism. They might even > install you in their home, so you could be there at a moment's notice to show > them the error of their ways. > > Then, again, why bother? There's no money, name or fame in criticizing a bunch > of Theosophists. Why not take those razor sharp perceptions and scientific > know-how and apply them to the computer industry! Every one knows how defective > softwere is these days. (At this very moment, my husband is sending off a nasty > email to Corel.) Bone up on programming and networking and sell your services > to the highest bidder. Who knows, even Bill Gates might give you a call. ; - ) > > -Ann E. Bermingham > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:47:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Quest Bookstore Seattle WWW Message-ID: Hi I just visited the homepage of Quest Bookstore at Seattle at: http://www.nsynch.com/~quest/ It is very well done and has a on line searchable catalog of books at the store. This is very useful. In addition it has links to other theosophical and "spiritual" sites and this makes it very inviting for visitors. Setting up a home page is one thing. The more difficult task is to make people come and look at your home page. The links are going to be the key to make people come by. Those who are responsible for setting up the Quest homepage are to be congratulated. You may want to visit it and see for yourself. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 02:46:45 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960922024644_107715273@emout02.mail.aol.com> Alan Bain writes> >IMO the validity or otherwise of anyone's esoteric *ideas* is something >that can only be tested by considering the ideas on their own merit. >Now esoteric *claims* - that's another matter. Richard Ihle writes> I don't think we necessarily disagree in general. However, in my previous post I tried to narrow it a little by saying, "and here I am especially thinking of those subjects like "magic" which have an application to or association with personal adeptship." It would seem to me that the "merit" of at least some of the ideas--certain meditative, breathing, or visualization techniques, for example--would show up in the life, character, or abilities of the person who is passing them along. I have heard of some approaches which require a decade or more of practice before results show themselves. At the minimum, I would like to see that at least one person has been able to get the promised results before I started. I have more than once run into younger people who--simply because they have read an Eastern book or two--are persuaded that they are on a path which will eventually enable them to read minds, walk through walls, fly unaided by aircraft to distant places etc. Maybe so. However, I am more the type of person who would want ~someone else~ to fly in from somewhere, walk through my walls, and present himself or herself as a living example of someone with these attainments because they had read my mind and learned that I needed a living example. Alan> >Concerning your "test" question [". . . if a person intimates that they have >preternatural powers, I start the questioning by asking them how much they can bench >press. . ."], I cannot bench press at all - arthritis prevents these days, but I was lousy at >it before. This is a disposition and an ability or faculty which I possess in small >measure. Richard> Sorry about the arthritis. The bench-pressing, of course, was just a stand-in for the general category of developed abilities which could easily be shown to someone else. Asking a person how good a psychic he or she would usually be the type of question which represents the opposite category--i.e., who can really judge this ability in others, especially when they are unwilling to tell you exactly where the S&P 500 will be tomorrow? Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a questionable life style was a good one. I agree with it. I certainly couldn't level any "ad hominem" against astrology in general because of such a person; rather, I might be merely tempted to taint astrology-in-the-way-he-knows-it-and/or-doesn't-use-it-transformatively a little. In other words, I would still want to learn astrology, but just not in exactly the same way which produced him. Similarly I still want to learn magic, but just not in exactly the same way which produced Aleister Crowley. Thanks and Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun Sep 22 05:13:32 1996 From: John Straughn Subject: Electrical monitering of the brain Message-ID: <199609220913.FAA10540@envirolink.org> One of the things which I wish scientists would try, if they have the equipment necessary, of course, would be to moniter the activity in the thalamus recently after a death, more appropriately after a heart attack. I have a theory, rather, a hypothesis that the thalamus is the "relay" during a near-death experience. This is why: First of all, the thalamus acts as a relay for all of the senses, excluding smell. Everything that one sees, hears, touches, etc. must go through the thalamus before it can be interpreted and remembered by the appropriate lobes. Just as in the Upanishads it says that the spleen is the physical "seat" of the astral body, I believe that the thalamus is similar in the microcosmic sense. Perhaps even the seat of the atman. When a person has a near-death experience, and I am referring to those who have seen the tunnel, the light, etc., they are seeing the light, the atman, perhaps, at the end of a tunnel. Their senses and instincts are the first to go in, for they are the "nearest" to the thalamus, and also the most "basic". When the people enter the light, their whole life flashes before them so to speak, and it all happens at once. They feel the emotions, as well as the senses, (except smell, coincidentally, (or not), that occurred during their life. This experience is all of their memories retreating into the thalamus, probably a spiritual mechanism of sorts to prepare them for the final stage of physical death. Once their entire spiritual and mental self is "enclosed" within the thalamus, they can decide upon whether or not it is "their time." Has anyone else thought of this? Or does anyone know if this kind of thalamic testing is possible? --- The Triaist From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:13:17 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960922101316_107794561@emout03.mail.aol.com> Rich, Good points, but let us be honest and remember that Crowley never claimed to want anything to do with virtue and was lousy at business, most creative types are and that's why god created agents. When we look at the personal life of anyone in this field the best way to go about it is to judge it by such things as internal consistency, or what is the degree of hypocrisy manifested and did the person accomplish his stated ends. Now when somebody starts making absurd claims, like he is the son of god or enlightened, then it is time to start twirling the finger around the ear. I rather like a lot of Crowley's ideas (though I have tried to avoid some of his extremes) and think that he's certainly as good a candidate for the position of World Teacher as boring old Krishnamurti,but that doesn't mean that he was right about everything and his personal life was an awful mess. In fact, he was the sort of person I have tried very hard to avoid becoming. My feeling, however, is that the personal life of a thinker does not bear on the quality of the ideas. Someone may live a life of fine middle-class virtue and probity and be an utter ass. Someone else may be a drinking, drug-using, womanizing hell-raiser (my god, am I describing someone I know? Nah, I don't do drugs.) and be a great genius. It is when the ideas are nutty that one must watch out. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:14:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960922101410_107794854@emout12.mail.aol.com> Ann, Well, in some circles I have the name and fame anyway, so I don't need to worry about that though money would be nice. Otherwise, we don't have any more Geoffrey Hodsons running around. He was the last of a particular breed of officially recognized holy saint airhead type clairvoyants that the society had and is undoubtedly better off without, so the the targets just aren't there. I fear that the truth is that the inner circle of the TS is made up of people who are hopelessly mundane and--gasp--normal in spite of obvious eccentricities which why the rest of us eccentrics are in the TS as well. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:14:20 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: how a feud started Message-ID: <960922101420_107794920@emout16.mail.aol.com> Those of us who have more than a passing interest in Theosophical History have sometimes wondered how the great feud between HPB and A O Hume got started. Well, the other night I was futzing around with my akashic cd player (we don't use records any more) and discovered the event that set it off. It seems that HPB was paying the redoubtable Mr. Hume a visit when she sat down on an antique chair next to the door of his study. The chair was not sufficiently strong to hold her poundage and gave way beneath her, sending her rolling out the door, down the hall, down the stairs and out the front door, squashing the three ladies of the evening who were just arriving for their weekly appointment with Mr. Hume. She proceeded to tumble down the street until she ended up upended in a manhole plugging it so thoroughly that even the derrick summoned by the hysterical authorities could not budge her. Ultimately, a large air compressor was brought in and the swere pipe was pumped full of hot air until Madame Blavatsky shot out like a cork from a child's pop-gun, going fully fifty feet into the air and landing on a nearby shrubbery. She escaped with minor scratches and some wounds to her dignity, but the shrubbery never recovered and had to be replaced. Mr. Hume never forgave her for spoiling his chair. Is any of that true? I don't know, but it is vouched for by both the Master Pollidentus Asseninus and Robert Muller's dead wife and several of his dead--er-intimate friends. Geoffrey Hodson was unavailable for comment as he was off at Manu school with George Arundale. Nighty night. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 22 Sep 96 14:42:53 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Hodson and Science Message-ID: <960922184253_72723.2375_FHP51-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >I fear that the truth is that the inner circle of the TS is made up of people >who are hopelessly mundane and--gasp--normal in spite of obvious >eccentricities which why the rest of us eccentrics are in the TS as well. That's comforting to know. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:59:48 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960923141204.1bef6d36@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck, >Amen. >I hope this gets through. A number of my responses to this list have been >bounced for some unknown reason. I was quite shocked that you could say Amen to anything I wrote. You'll start altering my belief system if you keep this up. Who knows, you could end up being responsible for a case of cognitive dissonance, and that would be very messy on both sides of the equation. I can't tell of course which of your messages I haven't received, but I've responded to just about every one that I have got from you on theos-l on Hodson etc over the last few days. Maybe delays due to my getting theos-l in digest form are the problem. >One thing I think that I have failed to make clear is that I do not >worship at the hallowed hall of SCIENCE. I don't worship the word and >therefore I don't see any need to try to make things fit into it. It looked very much as if you were trying to make things fit into your definition of science at times, there. I agree that it's healthy not to worship the word etc, though, of course. Science is a public quest and will hopefully continue to evolve. >But the word does have certain meanings and some of the attempts >Theosophists have used in the last hundred years to try to jam things into >it have done terrible violence to both. I agree. There have been too many cases where TS people have said "Look here, science supports Theosophy!" where the claim has turned out to be premature and damaging. >There is no reason why we cannot take information and say that the >classical scientific method does not apply to it. That does not >necessarily make the information untrue, or the method of gaining it >invalid, it merely makes it different. Good to hear you say it. >It may be that the best way to pursue these matters is to go off on our >own and say to hell with science and the scientific community. It won't >make visions of angels any easier to believe, It's better to ask "What does this mean and what is going on here?" than to settle into belief, whether it's for or against. >One of the problems with Geoffrey Hodson may be that a good satirist never >heard of him while he was in his prime, but then humor is not a common >thing in Theosophy, .... GH used to say, and I've seen it in one of his books somewhere, that a sense of humour was essential to anyone attempting to tread the spiritual way. I've seen his in action, and it certainly didn't exclude himself. On the other hand, he and his wife Sandra did take the work they were doing seriously, and I guess that the business of going public with that which was far from most of the public's world-view (or the TS's view, for that matter), was stressful for them both, tho' they sure didn't shrink from doing it. >Hodson probably could have benefited from someone who would have given him >a good kick in the rear every now and then just to remind him that he was >still human. Some of us may need the boot in the backside, but Hodson sure as hell didn't need reminding he was human, in all my dealings with him. He and Sandra ran a healing practice, alongside their writing and speaking projects, with letters flowing in to them from all over the world, asking for help in varied and often far-advanced cases of physical disease, obsession and damage due to drug excess. I felt that he actually became more down-to-earth and compassionate in later life than in earlier years, perhaps as a result of being intimately involved with so much suffering. They nearly always had the front door of their house open, with an implicit welcome to those who wanted or needed to come for any reason. I found this, especially coupled with their work load, pretty impressive. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:10:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Lucis Trust USA/Canadian Tour Message-ID: Sarah McKechnie, President of the Lucis Trust, New York is making a tour around the United States and parts of Canada during Septemer and October 1996. The purpose of the tour is to help focus and clarify thought and energy on the spiritual values which form the basis of the new group of world servers' contribution to humanity. Through group discussion and meditation, human consciousness can be lifted and irradiated with the energies of love and wisdom. The theme of the tour is THE AGELESS WISDOM: GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR A MATERIAL WORLD. Cities included in the tour are: Montreal/Toronto/Detroit/Denver/Vancouver/ Seattle/Ashland (Oregon)/San Francisco/Los Angeles/Tucson/Dallas/Miami/ Atlanta/Raleigh/Washington, D.C. There will be a public meeting in each city and an informal group meeting. Dates, times and places of meetings follow, together with local telephone numbers for further information. There is no charge for admission. Donations towards the cost of this tour of work are welcome. They may be contributed at the meetings or mailed to the Lucis Trust. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Detroit, September 22-24 Public Meeting: Sunday, September 22 at 7:00 pm. Dearborn Inn, 20301 Oakwood Blvd., Dearborn, MI 48214 Ihformal Group Meeting: Monday, September 23 at 7:00 pm. same address Information: Donna Edgerton - (313) 420-0932 Nancy Entwistle - (810) 465-5918 Violet Filipowitx - (519) 734-0157 Appointments: Nancy Entwistle - (810) 465-5918 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Denver, September 24-27 Public Meeting: Tuesday, September 24 at 7:00 pm. Unity Church of Denver, 3021 S. University Blvd., Denver, CO 80210 Informal Group Meeting: Wednesday, September 25 at 7:00 pm. same address Festival Meditation: Thursday, September 26 at 7:00 pm. First Divine Science Church of Denver, 1400 Williams, Denver, CO 80218 Information/Appointments: Elsie Brown - (303) 288-1822 Ann Cahoy - (303) 429-0619 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vanvouver, September 27-30 Public Meeting: Saturday, September 28 at 2:30 pm. Grand Masonic Lodgeof British Columbia (Watson Room), 1495 West 8th Avenue, Vancouver, B.C. Informal Group Meeting: Sunday, September 29 at 2:00 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Roger F. Roy - Tel: (604) 987-4296, Fax: (604) 987-4217 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Seattle, September 30 - October 3 Public MeetinG: Tuesday, October 1 at 7:00 pm. Scottish Rite Temple, 1155 Broadway East, Seattle, WA 98102 Informal Group Meeting: Wednesday, October 2 at 7:00 pm. Church of the Epiphany, 1805 38th Avenue, Seattle, WA 98122 Information/Appointments: Janna Howell - Tel: (206) 324-2573 Fax: (206) 324-2589 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ashland, October 3-4 Informal Group Meeting: Thursday, October 3 at 5:30 pm. Mark Antony Hotel, 212 East Main Street, Ashland, OR 97520 Public Meeting: Thursday, October 3 at 7:00 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Joann S. Bakula - Tel/Fax: (541) 488-0185 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- San Francisco, October 4-7 Public Meeting: Saturday, October 5 at 7:00 pm. Grand Hyatt Hotel, 345 Stockton Street (at Union Square), San Francisco, CA 94108 Informal Group Meeting: Sunday, October 6 at 7:00 pm. same address Information: Ford Boyer - (510) 769-0811 Charlotte Schmid - (415) 499-8858 David and Carol Anderer - (408) 446-1347 Appointments: Charlotte Schmid - (510) 499-8858 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Los Angeles, October 7-10 Public Meeting: Tuesday, October 8 at 7:30 pm. Unitarian Community Church of Santa Monica 1260 18th Street (corner of Arizona) Santa Monica, CA 90404 Informal Group Meeting: Wednesday, October 9 at 7:30 pm. same address Information: Meg Bundick -(213) 222-6945 Nancy Harrington - (818) 999-5393 Julie and Ken Maloney - (714) 840-0273 Appointments: Ignaz Brenninkmeijer - 1-800-798-5015 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tucson, October 10-13 Public Meeting: Friday, October 11 at 7:00 pm. Windmill Inn at St.Philip's Plaza, 4250 N. Campbell Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85718 Informal Group Meeting: Saturday, October 12 at 7:00 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Christina Donnadieu - (520) 797-0898 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dallas, October 13-16 Public Meeting: Monday, October 14 at 7:00 pm. Holiday Inn, Northpark Plaza 10650 North Central Expressway Dallas, TX 75231 Informal Group Meeting: Tuesday, October 15 at 7:00 pm. same address Information: Gloria Crook - (817) 654-1018 Appointments: Rosemarie Gladding - (214) 946-9052 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Miami, October16-19 Public Meeting: Thursday, October 17 at 8:00 pm. Howard Johnson's at Golden Glades 16500 N.W. 2nd Avenue North Miami, FL 33169 Informal Group Meeting: Friday, October 18 at 8:00 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Jorge and Gloria Berard - (954) 327-0869 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atlanta, October 19-21 Public Meeting: Saturday, October 19 at 2:00 pm Radisson Hotel, 2061 North Druid Hills, Atlanta, GA 30329 Informal Group Meeting: Sunday, October 20 at 2:00 pm. same address Information: Larry Dugan - (404) 633-1846 (evenings & weekends) Anne Labbe - (770) 476-1214 Mildred Speeg - (912) 883-7032 Appointments: Anne Labbe - (770) 476-1214 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Raleigh, October 21-23 Public Meeting: Monday, October 21 at 7:30 pm. Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Raleigh 3313 Wade Avenue, Raleigh, NC 27607 Informal Group Meeting: Tuesday, October 22 at 7:30 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Maureen Richmond - Tel: (919) 846-8554 (919) 870-5397 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Washington, D.C., October 23-26 Public Meeting: Wednesday, October 23 at 7:30 pm. Sheraton City Centre Hotel 1143 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037 Informal Group Meeting: Thursday, October 24 at 7:30 pm. same address Festival Meditation: Friday, October 25 at 7:30 pm. same address Information/Appointments: Claire Johnston - (703) 522-7207 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 22:45:04 PDT From: unidad@planet.com.mx (Logia Unidad de Mixico) Subject: Propuesta Message-ID: Bueno, bueno!! Si les parece comezar con algo, esta bien por mm, no se amontonen por responder a este correo electrsnico, yo propongo que de acuerdo al pequeqo escrito que esta en my home page (http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm) llamado "panorama teossfico" discutamos lo que les parezca correcto, yo propongo esto: 1) El libre alberdrio de una persona, 2) La autoconcienca del Karma, 3) El propssito cssmico y por zltimo 4) El sendero de la iniciacisn. Porqui hago esto?, my sencillo, aunque soy el editor y responsable de la pagina, suelo no estar de acuerdo con la mayorma de los escritos que tenemos en muchos home pages, por lo que para que vean mi sinceridad empezemos con el mmo, como ven, le entramos? Espero sus respuestas. Sinceramente Jeszs de Mixico. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:17:29 -0700 From: rdon@garlic.com (Rodolfo Don) Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 23 Message-ID: Vamos a ver si podemos revivir el foro. En resumidas cuentas cuantos somos? Rodolfo Don >Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:20:30 +0300 >From: "Osmar de Carvalho" >To: theos-span@vnet.net >Subject: Re: Heyy!! >Message-ID: <199609220320.AAA10034@borges.uol.com.br> > >> Hey!! >> Segunda llamada, segunda, a todas las personas que estan conectadas a este >> foro teossfico en espaqol, por favor contesten para saber si viven azn, >>por lo >> menos tengan la amabilidad de cedir algo, ya contestaron dos personas, Eric >> Escalante de Panama y M.K. Ramadoss (que no habla espaqol, como ven?), >> por otro lado se que hay otros veinte de ustedes que estan por ahm, por >>favor >> hay que revivir este forito, contesten!!! A se me olvidaba "to Osmar >> Carvalho, please man send again the message to this forum, because I did >> not receive it complete, thanks" y Osmar Carvhalo de Brasil que tampoco >> escribe masque en inglis y claro en portuguis (como ven esto otro?) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Jeszs Ernesto Cruz Martmnez >> jecruz@planet.com.mx >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > !Si hombre! > > Comenza una discussion y participaremos de ella! Nuestro spanhol >no es de los mejores, mas hacemos o que es possible. :-) > > Abrazos fraternales desde Brasil! > > Hasta su reply! > >Osmar de Carvalho .'. >osmar@uol.com.br >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:29:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: In message <960922024644_107715273@emout02.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Alan Bain writes> >>IMO the validity or otherwise of anyone's esoteric *ideas* is something >>that can only be tested by considering the ideas on their own merit. >>Now esoteric *claims* - that's another matter. > >Richard Ihle writes> >I don't think we necessarily disagree in general. However, in my previous >post I tried to narrow it a little by saying, "and here I am especially >thinking of those subjects like "magic" which have an application to or >association with personal adeptship." It would seem to me that the "merit" >of at least some of the ideas--certain meditative, breathing, or >visualization techniques, for example--would show up in the life, character, >or abilities of the person who is passing them along. Depends how you look at it. Meditation (or whatever) may simply make a thief a better thief, a liar a better liar, etc., etc. Techniques, of themselves, do not appear to have moral or social connotations. A live electrical cable will have the effect appropriate to what is connected to it. The moral etc. aspect lies with the user, not the equipment or the method of use. >>snip<< > >. Maybe so. However, I am more the type of >person who would want ~someone else~ to fly in from somewhere, walk through >my walls, and present himself or herself as a living example of someone with >these attainments because they had read my mind and learned that I needed a >living example. I once "tested the spirits" so to speak, and asked for a name and address to confirm a particular psychic experience. I got one, and it was a real address - I looked it up. I was quite young, and too s... scared to go knock on the door. A year later I got a message left for me a a local club asking me to get in touch with a person I had never heard of, but stating the correct subject of my earlier interest, *and giving the address I had received the year before.* Scary, and I ignored it! Still, I did get a kind of confirmation by wanting to see ~someone else~ involved without my physical involvement. BUT - it still had validity for me only - there ain't no control groups for this kind of thing! > >>snip<< > >Richard> > The bench-pressing, of course, was just a >stand-in for the general category of developed abilities which could easily >be shown to someone else. Asking a person how good a psychic he or she would >usually be the type of question which represents the opposite category--i.e., >who can really judge this ability in others, especially when they are >unwilling to tell you exactly where the S&P 500 will be tomorrow? Psychic in general are unable to do this, else there would be a lot of rich psychics around. Experience suggests, confirms even, that psychic abilitites cannot usually be produced at will, and those that can do not lend themselves to such forecasts. *Why* is a question that probably puzzles psychics just as much as anyone else. (Which is why I haven't won the lottery - yet!). > >Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a >questionable life style was a good one. A value judgement, all yours. I stated what his lifestyle was, and that I did not share it. The same would have applied if he had been a right wing Christian fundamentalist (though I doubt one such would study astrology). I never regarded his lifestyle as questionable, and still don't. It was how he lived, and any consequences of it were his business (or problem) - not mine. > I agree with it. I certainly >couldn't level any "ad hominem" against astrology in general because of such >a person; rather, I might be merely tempted to taint >astrology-in-the-way-he-knows-it-and/or-doesn't-use-it-transformatively a >little. In other words, I would still want to learn astrology, but just not >in exactly the same way which produced him. Either something is wrong with your syntax here, or you are putting the cart before the horse. This guy found out from his horoscope that he was likely to be gay from birth. He was, however, gay before he became an astrologer. There is no way I can think of that one could learn an astrology which would turn me or anyone else into some kind of person that they were not already. > Similarly I still want to learn >magic, but just not in exactly the same way which produced Aleister Crowley. Again, Crowley came first, and Crowley's use of magic second. Hence, if you follow me, my remarks on disposition. > >Thanks and Godspeed, > >Richard Ihle > You too, Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:33:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: In message <1.5.4.16.19960923141204.1bef6d36@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes >Maybe delays due to my getting theos-l in >digest form are the problem. Suggest you get the help file and set ack. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:13:19 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960922191318_483428941@emout18.mail.aol.com> Alan, I'm disappointed, especially as I leave out the really bad stuff. Chuck the Heretic By the way, I can't bench press either. Muscles are for people who are too dumb to use machines. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:14:32 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Electrical monitering of the brain Message-ID: <960922191432_483429632@emout04.mail.aol.com> An excellent idea. Theoretically it's possible but if the equipment exists to do it is another matter. It's certainly something to look into. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:29:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: In message <960922101316_107794561@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >It is when the ideas are nutty that one must watch out. Hmmm - I must look at your web page again ... Alan :-| or :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:03:07 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960923010307.006b76e8@whanganui.ac.nz> At 02:49 AM 22/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alan Bain writes> >>IMO the validity or otherwise of anyone's esoteric *ideas* is something >>that can only be tested by considering the ideas on their own merit. >>Now esoteric *claims* - that's another matter. > >Richard Ihle writes> >I don't think we necessarily disagree in general. However, in my previous >post I tried to narrow it a little by saying, "and here I am especially >thinking of those subjects like "magic" which have an application to or >association with personal adeptship." It would seem to me that the "merit" >of at least some of the ideas--certain meditative, breathing, or >visualization techniques, for example--would show up in the life, character, >or abilities of the person who is passing them along. I read that once an adept, then the motto is 'Do, Dare & be Silent' so there comes a time, perhaps when they are silent until they cross paths with someone who may benefit from their sharing. > >I have heard of some approaches which require a decade or more of practice >before results show themselves. At the minimum, I would like to see that at >least one person has been able to get the promised results before I started. > I have more than once run into younger people who--simply because they have >read an Eastern book or two--are persuaded that they are on a path which will >eventually enable them to read minds, walk through walls, fly unaided by >aircraft to distant places etc. Maybe so. However, I am more the type of >person who would want ~someone else~ to fly in from somewhere, walk through >my walls, and present himself or herself as a living example of someone with >these attainments because they had read my mind and learned that I needed a >living example. If you keep an open mind on the subject then it may manifest when you least expect it. That seems to be the way of the Universe, to catch us napping and the good stuff passes by unnoticed. > >Alan> >>Concerning your "test" question [". . . if a person intimates that they have >>preternatural powers, I start the questioning by asking them how much they >can bench >press. . ."], I cannot bench press at all - arthritis prevents >these days, but I was lousy at >it before. This is a disposition and an >ability or faculty which I possess in small >measure. > >Richard> >Sorry about the arthritis. The bench-pressing, of course, was just a >stand-in for the general category of developed abilities which could easily >be shown to someone else. Asking a person how good a psychic he or she would >usually be the type of question which represents the opposite category--i.e., >who can really judge this ability in others, especially when they are >unwilling to tell you exactly where the S&P 500 will be tomorrow? Will you still believe then? HPB showed endless abilities of an other worldly nature but noone really believed that it occurred the way she claimed. Had she not done so, life may have been much simpler for her and her books may have been more accepted as an intellectual production rather that a supernatural revelation. We will never know. It has been my experience that people hanker for extra-ordinary experiences but they will only accept if it happens to them. Other peoples account of their own experiences fall on deaf ears unless the listener has had a somewhat similar experience or is by nature a follower who thinks the same thing may come to them if they associate with experiencer long enough. > >Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a >questionable life style was a good one. I agree with it. I certainly >couldn't level any "ad hominem" against astrology in general because of such >a person; rather, I might be merely tempted to taint >astrology-in-the-way-he-knows-it-and/or-doesn't-use-it-transformatively a >little. In other words, I would still want to learn astrology, but just not >in exactly the same way which produced him. Similarly I still want to learn >magic, but just not in exactly the same way which produced Aleister Crowley. Knowledge and abilities are not the same as the outer expression of them by the people who hold them. The same spiritual path can branch into black or white depending on the intention of the person involved and how they apply the knowledge. It may not be the way they look but the intended results produced that gives us an idea where they are coming from. There are people I meet that I would rather distance myself from, yet not really knowing why and that person would, to me, have nothing I wanted to share. > >Thanks and Godspeed, > >Richard Ihle > Hope your walls are thin. :-) > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. A meeting is an event at which the minutes are kept and the hours lost. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:57:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: In message <960922191318_483428941@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >I'm disappointed, especially as I leave out the really bad stuff. With what are you disappointed? Did I miss summat? Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:07:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Electrical monitering of the brain Message-ID: Well now, I for one have thought of this many a time, seeing that you ask. I have had three NDEs in my time, and conform more or less what you write about them below as conforming to my recollections. I dount whether anyone has developed any equipment which could measure anything. In any event, the thorough study this area of the brain appears to be still in its infancy. Alan In message <199609220913.FAA10540@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >One of the things which I wish scientists would try, if they have the >equipment necessary, of course, would be to moniter the activity in the >thalamus recently after a death, more appropriately after a heart attack. I >have a theory, rather, a hypothesis that the thalamus is the "relay" during a >near-death experience. This is why: > >First of all, the thalamus acts as a relay for all of the senses, excluding >smell. Everything that one sees, hears, touches, etc. must go through the >thalamus before it can be interpreted and remembered by the appropriate lobes. > Just as in the Upanishads it says that the spleen is the physical "seat" of >the astral body, I believe that the thalamus is similar in the microcosmic >sense. Perhaps even the seat of the atman. > >When a person has a near-death experience, and I am referring to those who >have seen the tunnel, the light, etc., they are seeing the light, the atman, >perhaps, at the end of a tunnel. Their senses and instincts are the first to >go in, for they are the "nearest" to the thalamus, and also the most "basic". > >When the people enter the light, their whole life flashes before them so to >speak, and it all happens at once. They feel the emotions, as well as the >senses, (except smell, coincidentally, (or not), that occurred during their >life. This experience is all of their memories retreating into the thalamus, >probably a spiritual mechanism of sorts to prepare them for the final stage of >physical death. Once their entire spiritual and mental self is "enclosed" >within the thalamus, they can decide upon whether or not it is "their time." > >Has anyone else thought of this? Or does anyone know if this kind of thalamic >testing is possible? > >--- >The Triaist > > --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:28:43 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960922232842_483571615@emout11.mail.aol.com> Alan Bain writes> >Meditation (or whatever) may simply make a thief a better thief, a liar a >better liar, etc., etc. Techniques, of themselves, do not appear to have moral or social >connotations. A live electrical cable will have the effect appropriate to what is connected >to it. The moral etc. aspect lies with the user, not the equipment or the method of use. Richard Ihle writes> I agree that some ~"whatevers"~ may be used to make better thieves and liars. (A few critics may even go so far as to say that wrong breathing and imperfect understanding of the "mechanisms" of visualization may make better devils and schizophrenics.) However, I am still working on some way I can agree with you on meditation. I suppose if one considered something like holding the image of Koot Humi in one's mind-eye to be "meditation," one could possibly go astray here as well. At little ad hominem along the lines of scrutinizing those who may or may not have self-manufactured a rigid belief in the existence of the Masters as a result of this practice might even be advisable. Nonetheless, it is difficult to see how thieves and liars could be produced even by something like this. No, I think I am going to stand-up for meditation in general here. To be a thief, there has to be a ~you~ and something that is ~not-you~ to steal; to be a liar, there has to be a ~you~ and something that is ~not-you~ to make the lie out of. Insofar as meditation proceeds toward the One, the "moral aspect of the user," cannot help but be improved--or at least it seems so to me. I remember that someone once asked the Maharishi whether a person who began Transcendental Meditation but then stopped regular practice after a short while would not have been better off if he or she had not started at all. The Maharishi answered ~definitely not~ and compared the situation to an extremely dirty towel: while it is true that the towel probably needs many, many washings to get it completely clean, washing it once or twice and then stopping would not leave it in worse condition than if it had never been washed at all. No, I do not believe meditation would be of much use to a bad person who wanted to become even worse. . . . >>RI>> >>Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a >>questionable life style was a good one. Alan> >A value judgement, all yours. I stated what his lifestyle was, and that >I did not share it. RI> Actually, you said it with a little more verve like this: "I liked him as a person, but there was no way I would have wanted to share his lifestyle. For one thing, he was permanently homeless, and had a fancy for 17-year-olds, which I was always amazed to note he had no trouble in making it with!" I thought you were using this as an illustration of how ideas should be judged for their own merit, irrespective of the personal circumstances of those who promote them. The illustration wouldn't work so well in this regard, of course, if one is not willing to judge this man's lifestyle as either good nor bad. (Aside: I, too, am neutral about his homelessness and homosexuality, but willingly admit to making a negative "value judgement" about his seductions of seventeen-year-olds; this is illegal in Wisconsin, anyway.) >>RI >>Similarly I still want to learn magic, but just not in exactly the same way >>which produced Aleister Crowley. Alan> >Again, Crowley came first, and Crowley's use of magic second. Hence, if you >follow me, my remarks on disposition. RI> You may be mostly correct in this or otherwise we would have a lot more little Crowley's around. Nevertheless, I also believe there may be certain practices which can change the practitioners as well. I have known students who have experimented with Satanism and seemed to have become quite unlike their former selves in very short order. I better ask Jerry S. about this sometime. Best wishes and Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:21:06 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960923002105_108322534@emout10.mail.aol.com> Bee writes> >Hope your walls are thin. :-) Richard Ihle writes> If you are over seventeen, you better be careful. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:30:34 +1200 From: Bee Brown Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960923083034.006b7e30@whanganui.ac.nz> At 12:28 AM 23/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Bee writes> >>Hope your walls are thin. :-) > >Richard Ihle writes> >If you are over seventeen, you better be careful. . . . > >Godspeed, > >Richard Ihle Bee Writes. How far past seventeen can one cease to be careful? :-) Seventy perhaps. If so, somewhere in between I will be careful if I have to!!!!!!!! I may test your walls in disguise, then you would only have half proof..... > > Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, TI. A meeting is an event at which the minutes are kept and the hours lost. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:19:18 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960923111916_291201289@emout06.mail.aol.com> Murray, Take heart. I find the idea of you agreeing with me as frightening as the thought of me agreeing with you. You, of course, have a significant advantage over me in that you actually knew Hodson, whereas I can only judge the man by his writings. It may be that there was a side of him that you did not see, or it may be that the writings themselves are flawed. Certainly there is material in my notes that would give a totally different picture of me than the one people who know me have, both from the fact that there are things I don't talk about and there are ideas I play with but don't act on. The Geoffrey Hodson of the Diaries is a totally different man than the one you describe and a far less pleasant one. The one you describe I regret not having known. The one in the Diaries I regret never having had the chance to go after. Which was the real Hodson? That may be the key to all this. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:20:16 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <960923112015_291201836@emout03.mail.aol.com> If the Heretic can jump in here, it is generally acknowledged that most professional gamblers are psychic to a degree, certainly my father's boyhood friends among them were (we were always running into them if we took a day at the track). And while I have never been able pick all the lottery numbers, I' ve come annoying close on a couple of occasions and my capacity for pulling large amounts of money out of thin air does surprise even me on occasion. There has actually been some very promising research done in predicting commodity prices and when I get my finances back in order I'm going to continue it myself. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:57:30 -0700 From: Robert Word Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 669 Message-ID: <3246B36A.566E@TIW.COM> > Alan> > >Concerning your "test" question [". . . if a person intimates that they have > >preternatural powers, I start the questioning by asking them how much they > can bench >press. . ."], I cannot bench press at all - arthritis prevents > these days, but I was lousy at >it before. This is a disposition and an > ability or faculty which I possess in small >measure. > > Richard> > Sorry about the arthritis. The bench-pressing, of course, was just a > stand-in for the general category of developed abilities which could easily > be shown to someone else. Asking a person how good a psychic he or she would > usually be the type of question which represents the opposite category--i.e., > who can really judge this ability in others, especially when they are > unwilling to tell you exactly where the S&P 500 will be tomorrow? > > Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a > questionable life style was a good one. I agree with it. I certainly > couldn't level any "ad hominem" against astrology in general because of such > a person; rather, I might be merely tempted to taint > astrology-in-the-way-he-knows-it-and/or-doesn't-use-it-transformatively a > little. In other words, I would still want to learn astrology, but just not > in exactly the same way which produced him. Similarly I still want to learn > magic, but just not in exactly the same way which produced Aleister Crowley. > > Thanks and Godspeed, > > Richard Ihle > > By allowing an ad hominem argument of this type, we may reason as follows. Aleister Crowley was a man who lived a life which many would regard as immoral. Aleister Crowley graduated from Cambridge University. Therefore, we ought not ourselves to attend Cambridge University, nor should we allow our children to do so. Again, we may argue as follows. Aleister Crowley started his magical career in the Golden Dawn. He came to be viewed widely as an immoral man. Therefore, we ought not to start our magical careers in the Golden Dawn, nor should we allow our children to do so. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:50:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ad Hominem Message-ID: <2qO7ZCAxOqRyEwcN@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960922232842_483571615@emout11.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Richard Ihle writes> >I agree that some ~"whatevers"~ may be used to make better thieves and liars. > (A few critics may even go so far as to say that wrong breathing and >imperfect understanding of the "mechanisms" of visualization may make better >devils and schizophrenics.) > >However, I am still working on some way I can agree with you on meditation. > I suppose if one considered something like holding the image of Koot Humi in >one's mind-eye to be "meditation," one could possibly go astray here as well. Indeed, as this would be contemplation, not meditation. > At little ad hominem along the lines of scrutinizing those who may or may >not have self-manufactured a rigid belief in the existence of the Masters as >a result of this practice might even be advisable. I rather think such scrutiny has been very thoroughly undertaken on theos-l! But the practice you *describe* is self-indentification with something or someone the veracity or legitimacy of which/whom could be flawed to begin with. There indeed could lie the seeds of megalomania, paranoia, etc., etc. - but again, it's not meditation. > Nonetheless, it is >difficult to see how thieves and liars could be produced even by something >like this. > >No, I think I am going to stand-up for meditation in general here. To be a >thief, there has to be a ~you~ and something that is ~not-you~ to steal; to >be a liar, there has to be a ~you~ and something that is ~not-you~ to make >the lie out of. Insofar as meditation proceeds toward the One, the "moral >aspect of the user," cannot help but be improved--or at least it seems so to >me. > >I remember that someone once asked the Maharishi whether a person who began >Transcendental Meditation but then stopped regular practice after a short >while would not have been better off if he or she had not started at all. > The Maharishi answered ~definitely not~ and compared the situation to an >extremely dirty towel: while it is true that the towel probably needs many, >many washings to get it completely clean, washing it once or twice and then >stopping would not leave it in worse condition than if it had never been >washed at all. > He was a sly one! I was initiated in his version of what *is* meditation in 1960. I still use it, albeit slightly adapted in the light of the work of Ernest Wood. >No, I do not believe meditation would be of much use to a bad person who >wanted to become even worse. . . . None at all - are we talking at cross-purposes somewhere? > >>>RI>> >>>Your illustration about learning astrology even from someone with a >>>questionable life style was a good one. > >Alan> >>A value judgement, all yours. I stated what his lifestyle was, and that >>I did not share it. > >RI> >Actually, you said it with a little more verve like this: "I liked him as a >person, but there was no way I would have wanted to share his lifestyle. For >one thing, he was permanently homeless, and had a fancy for 17-year-olds, >which I was always amazed to note he had no trouble in making it with!" > >I thought you were using this as an illustration of how ideas should be >judged for their own merit, irrespective of the personal circumstances of >those who promote them. The illustration wouldn't work so well in this >regard, of course, if one is not willing to judge this man's lifestyle as >either good nor bad. And so I was - with verve, it seems! :-) IMO the illustration works on its own. If someone want to make a judgement about the man's lifestyle, that is their business, but makes no difference either way to the value of the ideas (in this case astrological). I went on to study astrology in depth myself, as I found the ideas and teaching *on the subject* which I received from him to be sound. I still do - he was a very good astrologer (value judgement based upon the facts of my experience of his astrological work and teaching - but then I *knew* him (he is long deceased, found sitting up dead as a dodo on a park bench with a little smile on his face - he was a lapsed catholic, maybe there was a connection :-}) > (Aside: I, too, am neutral about his homelessness and >homosexuality, but willingly admit to making a negative "value judgement" >about his seductions of seventeen-year-olds; this is illegal in Wisconsin, >anyway.) ANY kind of homosexuality was illegal in England in 1956! With 17 year- olds it still is. > >>>RI >>>Similarly I still want to learn magic, but just not in exactly the same way >>>which produced Aleister Crowley. > >Alan> >>Again, Crowley came first, and Crowley's use of magic second. Hence, if you > >>follow me, my remarks on disposition. > >RI> >You may be mostly correct in this or otherwise we would have a lot more >little Crowley's around. Nevertheless, I also believe there may be certain >practices which can change the practitioners as well. I have known students >who have experimented with Satanism and seemed to have become quite unlike >their former selves in very short order. I better ask Jerry S. about this >sometime. No surprise there - but again, there was possibly or probably a predisposition to become the way they became, and "Satanism" was a convenient hook to hang their justifications on? Yes? > >Best wishes and Godspeed, I have wondered before, so I will ask: "Godspeed to *where*?" > Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 16:57:57 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: NYRB article (fwd) Message-ID: <199609232057.QAA29694@leo.vsla.edu> > > >From "The Consolation of Theosophy" by Frederick Crews in the > 9/19 New York Review of Books: > > So, too, the esoteric historians' gratitude toward the > propounders of transcendent doctrine leaves them reluctant to > be candid or vivid about the shamming, squabbling, and > jockeying for power that inevitably characterize the daily > conduct of any movement that traffics in unconfirmable ideas. > Consider, for example, what becomes of Madame Blavatsky in the > hands of K. Paul Johnson, the best-informed but hardly the most > trustworthy commentator on Theosophy. Though he acknowledges > HPB's light regard for the truth and reluctantly explodes > several features of her legend, Johnson airily maintains that > she "devote[d] all her energies to the enlightenment and > liberation of humanity." Her lies, he declares, were told with > the most selfless of motives, to protect the identities of her > politically active tutors in Egypt and India, the real-life > prototypes of her fanciful Mahatmas Koot Hoomi and Morya: "Most > of her public life was an effort to serve hidden Masters > without revealing their secrets." > > Such piety obscures both the cynical glee Blavatsky must have > taken in perpetrating ruses and the obvious self-interestedness > of her "Mahatma letters," which, far from expressing sublime > and eternal truths, mirrored her own opinions and advancedher > immediate tactical ends vis-a-vis jealous rivals. At the same > time, Johnson's emphasis on her role as a handmaiden to male > sages occludes the very traits that we can still admire: her > fesity independence and impetuousness, her spurning of a > conventional female role, her impatience with petty hypocrisy, > her earthy humor, her well-founded scorn for her lieutenants, > and her shrewdly accurate gauging of other people's eagerness > to be gulled. > > Happily, though, the story of modern esotericism is not the > exlusive property of esotericists. As of 1995, we have the > benefit of Peter Washington's *Madame Blavatsky's Baboon*, a > work that makes cogent sublunar sense of HPB and much of her > progeny. > Later, Crews quotes a feisty HPB passage and asks "Can this be the obedient figure depicted in K. Paul Johnson's deferential studies?" In response to Doss's request. Part II is just out, and I hear goes into the occult roots of Nazism. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:42:17 -0700 From: rdon@garlic.com (Rodolfo Don) Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 24 Message-ID: Yo propongo que de acuerdo al >pequeno escrito que esta en my home page >(http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm) llamado "panorama >teosofico" discutamos lo que les parezca correcto, yo propongo esto: >1) El libre alberdrio de una persona, >2) La autoconcienca del Karma, >3) El proposito cosmico y por ultimo >4) El sendero de la iniciacion. > Porque hago esto?, my sencillo, aunque soy el editor y responsable de la >pagina, suelo no estar de acuerdo con la mayoria de los escritos que >tenemos en muchos home pages, por lo que para que vean mi sinceridad >empezemos con el mio, como ven, le entramos? Espero sus respuestas. >Sinceramente Jesus de Mexico. > > >------------------------------ Jesus, Podemos comenzar con el Numero 1: El libre albedrio. Yo tengo entendido que todo teosofo debe aceptar el 'libre albedrio'. Tenemos libertad de pensamiento y de accion. Dentro de la Sociedad y en el Mundo. Pero esta libertad implica tambien una responsabilidad. No creen asi? Quisiera escuchar algunas opiniones sobre esta responsabilidad (los que estan de acuerdo). Rodolfo From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:51:39 -0400 From: Eric Escalante Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 24 Message-ID: <199609240051.UAA08431@ns.sinfo.net> At 20:43 23/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Yo propongo que de acuerdo al >>pequeno escrito que esta en my home page >>(http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm) llamado "panorama >>teosofico" discutamos lo que les parezca correcto, yo propongo esto: > >>1) El libre alberdrio de una persona, >>2) La autoconcienca del Karma, >>3) El proposito cosmico y por ultimo >>4) El sendero de la iniciacion. > =20 >Podemos comenzar con el Numero 1: El libre albedrio. Hola! =20 Para mi el libre albedr=EDo es un factor clave para nuestra evoluci=F3n indivudializada, ya que atraves de este se manifiesta nuestra voluntad, y en base a las experiencias - y karma- producto de dichas decisiones es que eventualmente llegamos a crecer (un proceso muy lleno de estrellones, por cierto :-)). Ciertamente tenemos una gran responsabilidad en nuestras manos, pues cada una de nuestras decisiones afecta de alguna manera u otra a nuestro projimo. Chao, Eric. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:03:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: ad hominem Message-ID: In message <3246B36A.566E@TIW.COM>, Robert Word writes >By allowing an ad hominem argument of this type, we may reason as >follows. Aleister Crowley was a man who lived a life which many >would regard as immoral. Aleister Crowley graduated from >Cambridge University. Therefore, we ought not ourselves to attend >Cambridge University, nor should we allow our children to do so. Quite so! Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:15:30 +0900 From: Frederic ANDRES Subject: WWW and DBMS Message-ID: <32473632.30DA@rd.nacsis.ac.jp> Dr. A.M.Bain, I saw your homepage http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/. My life is a combination of spirituality and computing. why don't you use a DBMS for your web server. Do you plan to build an hypermedia database to enable users to navigate through ideas, word inside theosophy writings. If yes, I can give you the DBMS called Phasme (opened DBMS) for that purpose. Best Regards, Dr. Frederic Andres From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:32:24 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 669 Message-ID: <960924113223_109613882@emout02.mail.aol.com> We can do even better than Cambridge. Aleister Crowley, among his other many vices was a notorious breather. Now every criminal and every person in a mental hospital suffers from the same vice, therefore it behooves all right-thinking people to stop breathing. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:15:07 +0300 From: "Osmar de Carvalho" Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 25 Message-ID: <199609242016.RAA09506@borges.uol.com.br> > Podemos comenzar con el Numero 1: El libre albedrio. Yo tengo entendido que > todo teosofo debe aceptar el 'libre albedrio'. Tenemos libertad de > pensamiento y de accion. Dentro de la Sociedad y en el Mundo. Pero esta > libertad implica tambien una responsabilidad. No creen asi? Si! La responsabilidade personal hacia la evolucion es la clave de una vida con etica teosofica. Todavia nuestro libre albedrio no es absoluto, porque estamos incluidos dentro de una jerarquia de fuerzas e inteligencias cosmicas que tambien tienen liberatd em suas respectivos planos de existencia. Es un pensamiento que tengo conmigo que nuestro libre albedrio solo existe en gran scala, en esta linea jerarquica, en relacion con los reinos debajo de lo nivel humano, o seja, con los reinos animal, vegetal, mineral y elemental. No es possible alcanzar nuestras decisiones a los reinos sobre-humanos y las inteligencias estan encima de la evolucion de los hombres. []s Osmar de Carvalho .'. osmar@uol.com.br http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6786/index.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:59:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 669 Message-ID: In message <960924113223_109613882@emout02.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >We can do even better than Cambridge. >Aleister Crowley, among his other many vices was a notorious breather. Now >every criminal and every person in a mental hospital suffers from the same >vice, therefore it behooves all right-thinking people to stop breathing. > >Chuck the Heretic 99% of all the people in the UK who died last year regularly ate tomatoes, but the government still refuses to ban tomatoes. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:35:56 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 66[6] Message-ID: <960925003554_484779418@emout15.mail.aol.com> Robert Word writes> >By allowing an ad hominem argument of this type, we may reason as >follows. Aleister Crowley was a man who lived a life which many >would regard as immoral. Aleister Crowley graduated from >Cambridge University. Therefore, we ought not ourselves to attend >Cambridge University, nor should we allow our children to do so. > >Again, we may argue as follows. Aleister Crowley started his magical >career in the Golden Dawn. He came to be viewed widely as an >immoral man. Therefore, we ought not to start our magical careers >in the Golden Dawn, nor should we allow our children to do so. Richard Ihle writes> Welcome to the list, Robert. Good job with the above. (This is the same line of suspicious reasoning that is often used to keep marijuana illegal, isn't it? That is, since marijuanna is the first drug used by most heroin addicts, marijuana must therefore be a cause of heroin addiction, they say.) A couple minor points, however: 1) I don't think I would venture to judge Aleister Crowley as "immoral." Here is the extent of my misgivings about him as given in my original post: "There were some things which I thought were valuable. However, in the back of my mind was always this thought: 'Here is a man who reputedly knows so much and has all these powers, but his life story, when all is said and done, is basically that he started off with all the advantages of an inherited fortune and ended up more-or-less bankrupt and a drug addict to boot.' [Correct me if I am wrong in this.] Furthermore, I gradually got the distinct feeling that he may not have been the most ~wholesome~ guy around." By ~wholesome~ I was thinking more along the lines of "conducive to sound health or well-being"--his own and that of those who were influenced by him--rather than morality. To show what egregious non-logic I sometimes use in cases like this, I must admit that this feeling really didn't start taking hold until after I started seeing photographs of him. As Albert Camus once said, "After a certain age, every man is responsible for his own face." Unfair and inaccurate as it might be, I didn't like what I thought I saw in Crowley's face at all. I had lived quite comfortably with all the iron daggers, pentagrams, and statements about how he wanted to be the Devil's "chief of staff" (or something like that) etc. for quite a while; however, once the trappings and ideas got connected to what, rightly or wrongly, seemed to me like a debauched face, I decided that perhaps it was time to investigate other paths as well (including other, not-so-Crowley, Magic paths). But I have done this type of thing "in reverse" as well. Dare I reveal that one of the main reasons I became interested in Transcendental Meditation was that I liked the way the Maharishi always looked so smiley and benign? That I read the Secret Doctrine because HPB's eyes actually appeared capable of seeing Invisible Worlds? Gurdjieff because of his mustache and Master-like presence? Rudolf Steiner because of his pure, dispassionate countenance? Krisnamurti because of the inner strength and resoluteness which seemed to radiate through his slightness? Is this something I shouldn't be admitting? How do you get to be a seer without practicing your seeing, then? And 2) Might an "analogical flaw" between your two "bad reasoning" examples be that the first one doesn't appeal to the ~intuition~ as having much potential for a specific cause-and-effect relationship? Good old generic theosophy: it can at least give the impression of saving you when you don't have a leg to stand on, otherwise. . . . Best wishes and Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:46:20 From: "Uri Macnev" Subject: The 1995 letter Message-ID: <199609250448.AA12533@angel.elektra.ru> Hello! * Forwarded by Uri Macnev * From : Kay Ziatz > Subj: The 1995 letter > To: M.K.Ramadoss Hello. I've finally translated the letter to Roerich congress which I mentioned before. For those who haven't read my previous letter I repeat that this anonymous letter was passed by unknown women to presidium of the congress which took place in Moscow last year. Also I have to re- peat that because of my poor English and original style of the document I couldn't make an adequate translation. K.Z. To participants of the conference Peace and joy to listening hearts! When began reading, joy of the new and consonant visited you. When meeting with people, have seen their wonder of uncommon. When sharing drops of known, regarded yourselves as knowing. Only tone and gaze have changed - you've lost the newcomers. And unity was converted to opposition. Think a while, what do you divide? What for do you tear a cloth weaved by a indefatigable work? Bitter to see. Fence of personal offenses divides adherents. In the ages all the divisions, splits and quarrels were grown from the personal offenses, only above covered by unacceptability of the other. Can't be proud of absence of mutual understanding. If you pull out the black thread from the words lace, it will be you, who'll be wrapped up by it. Which advance might be then? Which creation? Forgive sincerely to each other all the offenses voluntary and involuntary. Don't call offenses the principal differences. If even shadow of annoyance or bitterness is alive - there's no forgiveness in you. Said on revolting of spirit, not on the emotions and passions. Leave the heavy burden - go lightly, don't stumble over garbage of the past: it's only stones of your personal growth. Look around: your intercourse was rare and little, partly fussy, because held in passing by. Did continuously sound by this a tuning- fork of mutual good wishing? Didn't you confuse sharp sight with a distrust and suspect? Can you vouch that your subconsciousness isn't heavied by other mood - grief, emotional experience, ordinary life, house. Can you really catch your every thought and feeling in every moment? Haven't you converted in your perception seriousness to a rigidness, persistence to a intolerance and seed of quarrel, self- confidence - to ambition? All your property-related pretensions and division of a whole come from a mistrust and suspect which are pride based. Money is only a consequence. Last years were for all, including the country and folks, were like a vaccination against a hard disease. It's time to recover. Leave crooked mirrors - look at each another by a clear childs eye. Each of you has a possibility to begin a new life - in this life. You may call it a period. Take care, lay down a stone. If someone will think that this is not about him, it means that he looks at his image, not at himself. Check your degree of selfsincerity; realization isn't equal to selfcondemnance and confusion. Look into yourself tete-a-tete with yourself. Your defects aren't equal to your Self. Leave. When you will be able to confess your errors to others without fear, it would mean that you've eradicated. Selfrealization isn't equal to selfidentification. With anyone at all. Build today's yourself - future man will grow. A relation circles of constant members are created among you. Look, didn't became these circles closed? Make difference between concentra- tion on action and isolateness. Aren't you afraid of newcomers? How many of those who came only once are gone? By what have you repel them? By silence? Misconcentration? Lack of attention? Being too busy? Diligent preaching? Or maybe you didn't ask whether your help is re- quired?.. It's a your wastefulness which leaved you without helpers. What happened with these people now? There's no aliens for you, regardless of creed as a consonant form of the Path. Though they may regard you as aliens. If have separated - it's personally you who didn't find a common language. Seek, what drives them and you'll find the key. Against the objections: there's a measure - an open heart. It will never lie. Those may deceive: mind, emotions, passion, even in kind of momentary disbalance. When reading, discussing and explaining, you take only a part and are busy mostly with own growth. But there are lot of concrete tasks on the pages of Teaching. Don't be confused, start them, look for people - there's a lot of them and they're ready, though maybe haven't even heard about the Teaching. Mistrust is responsibility. Trust is also your personal responsibility, especially if you see that the man couldn't manage. Each time one has to find an individual degree of trust. Trust will wing a newcomer and make him believe in himself. Make a gift of selfconfidence to people. It will grow up maybe after a years. No one good seed will be lost. Flowers and trees grow even on the stones. Speak not with images of people, but with people. There's no place for stereotypes in expanded consciousness. Don't wait for instant transfiguration. One who doesn't believe in the others really wants they instantly changed. When studying: you think on yourself both too much and too little. More often you're reviewing the images from life, experiencing new time. Not one time - and through the years. Main point here is ab- sence of analysis, search and understanding of the causes and driving motives. If you recollect, it means - haven't realized the dominant tone which brings a dissonance, little by little and imperceptibly. Especially it includes relations with people - much forces and time are spent for emotional experience but there's a little of movement. One should learn to think - otherwise there's a much feeling and a little of knowledge. Feelings are unrealized thoughts. Emotions are unrealized fears. Make difference. You can test yourself: take a blank sheet of paper and write down all the phrases from Teaching, in that sequence as you recollect them. There other words can arise, up to quotes from songs and someone's retorts. It will be your today's scale of personal significance, the personal context. Look, what makes it important for you. Maybe it will only remind a situation, or keyword sounds very loud? Where is it from, which thoughts and feelings being born? Such a way you'll comprehend which place takes the Teaching in yourselves. Imagine - if you already can - what sounds in your interviewer, and a main point - why. It is said about a difficulty of understanding and search of common language. Even among the adherents. You'll not understand each another and will pass by like a strangers, if you won't respect a spark of light in EACH man. To instruct isn't equal to teach. Explain, how to a child. From height and haughtily - aren't the same things. Don't afraid to return where you've got a rejection. A few can hear from a first time. But before the requests propose at first your help. Don't wait for a first step from others. Do yourself. Learn without rushing about and doubts because these are from fear of being not accepted and mis- understood, from doubt in other which really is your own doubt, a mistrust to your skill to know people. Search the keys. Before asking for help (you can call it for yourself "proposal of collaboration") check, have you done all the possible yourself, maybe your own lack of skill and knowledge interfered a useful business? Your doubt in yourself, in others or in necessity of the deed? Comp- lains and regrets instead of thinking on plan? Collaboration should not load a burden in the one of sides. There's a disrespect to other. Check yourself. Begin each appreciation from yourself: don't blame others - no one, don't condemn, otherwise you'll become a destroyer. Who has added even a little disturbance because of lack of know- ledge - go and correct. There will be a joy. Contrary movement is a one of main cosmic laws. Don't break. Before joining ask again yourself - not other - will you endure? If you fall behind, it isn't a trouble. The main point is not to run away. From a benevolent pause durating moment or year, an in- tent to movement will grow. I don't mean a pause in selfperfection. There's only one priority - to bring more benefit without comparing with another one's contribution. All said above is about verges of your Culture. It's time to build a house of mutual understanding. Take the best in you and in others and a grain of sand will convert to a reliable stone, candle flames - to a clear light. I believe that these words won't seem out of place. Let only love and carefulness sound in your heart. Learn to love. Joy - to all. 17-20.09.1995 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:38:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Growing numbers Message-ID: <8nhpqBADEHSyEwUl@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Greetings all, especially the new(er) names on the theos-l lurkers list :-) If you haven't yet checked out Theosophy International, try the link from my homepage below, which also has links to theosophical writings and other information. For anyone interested in Liberal Catholic and similar matters, check the "Bishops Irregular" link. For anyone who has a copy of this 1985 book, please do likewise, there is a free update to the 'A' section available (which will make sense only if you have the book already). Alan Bain --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:13:16 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 669 Message-ID: <960925101315_292845605@emout13.mail.aol.com> Refusing to ban tomatoes? What is this world coming to? And think of all the poor souls suffering from water addiction! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:18:35 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 666 (poss. copy) Message-ID: <960925161834_293078844@emout15.mail.aol.com> Robert Word writes> >By allowing an ad hominem argument of this type, we may reason as >follows. Aleister Crowley was a man who lived a life which many >would regard as immoral. Aleister Crowley graduated from >Cambridge University. Therefore, we ought not ourselves to attend >Cambridge University, nor should we allow our children to do so. > >Again, we may argue as follows. Aleister Crowley started his magical >career in the Golden Dawn. He came to be viewed widely as an >immoral man. Therefore, we ought not to start our magical careers >in the Golden Dawn, nor should we allow our children to do so. Richard Ihle writes> Welcome to the list, Robert. Good job with the above. (This is the same line of suspicious reasoning that is often used to keep marijuana illegal, isn't it? That is, since marijuanna is the first drug used by most heroin addicts, marijuana must therefore be a cause of heroin addiction, they say.) A couple minor points, however: 1) I don't think I would venture to judge Aleister Crowley as "immoral." Here is the extent of my misgivings about him as given in my original post: "There were some things which I thought were valuable. However, in the back of my mind was always this thought: 'Here is a man who reputedly knows so much and has all these powers, but his life story, when all is said and done, is basically that he started off with all the advantages of an inherited fortune and ended up more-or-less bankrupt and a drug addict to boot.' [Correct me if I am wrong in this.] Furthermore, I gradually got the distinct feeling that he may not have been the most ~wholesome~ guy around." By ~wholesome~ I was thinking more along the lines of "conducive to sound health or well-being"--his own and that of those who were influenced by him--rather than morality. To show what egregious non-logic I sometimes use in cases like this, I must admit that this feeling really didn't start taking hold until after I started seeing photographs of him. As Albert Camus once said, "After a certain age, every man is responsible for his own face." Unfair and inaccurate as it might be, I didn't like what I thought I saw in Crowley's face at all. I had lived quite comfortably with all the iron daggers, pentagrams, and statements about how he wanted to be the Devil's "Chief of Staff" (or something like that) etc. for quite a while; however, once the trappings and ideas got connected to what, rightly or wrongly, seemed to me like a debauched face, I decided that perhaps it was time to investigate other paths as well (including other, not-so-Crowley, Magic paths). But I have done this type of thing "in reverse" as well. Dare I reveal that one of the main reasons I became interested in Transcendental Meditation was that I liked the way the Maharishi always looked so smiley and benign? That I read the Secret Doctrine because HPB's eyes actually appeared capable of seeing Invisible Worlds? Gurdjieff because of his mustache and Master-like presence? Rudolf Steiner because of his pure, dispassionate countenance? Krishnamurti because of the inner strength and resoluteness which seemed to radiate through his slightness? Is this something I shouldn't be admitting? How do those seers get to be seers without practicing their seeing, then? And 2) Might an "analogical flaw" between your two "bad reasoning" examples be that the first one doesn't appeal to the ~intuition~ as having much potential as a cogent, proximate cause-and-effect relationship? Good old generic theosophy: it can at least give the appearance of saving you when you don't have a leg to stand on otherwise. . . . Best wishes and Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:17:32 -0700 From: rdon@garlic.com (Rodolfo Don) Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 25 Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:51:39 -0400 >From: Eric Escalante >Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 24 >Message-ID: <199609240051.UAA08431@ns.sinfo.net> > >At 20:43 23/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Yo propongo que de acuerdo al >>>pequeno escrito que esta en my home page >>>(http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index.htm) llamado "panorama >>>teosofico" discutamos lo que les parezca correcto, yo propongo esto: >> >>>1) El libre alberdrio de una persona, >>>2) La autoconcienca del Karma, >>>3) El proposito cosmico y por ultimo >>>4) El sendero de la iniciacion. >> >=20 >>Podemos comenzar con el Numero 1: El libre albedrio. > >Hola! =20 > Para mi el libre albedr=EDo es un factor clave para nuestra evoluci=F3n >indivudializada, ya que atraves de este se manifiesta nuestra voluntad, y en >base a las experiencias - y karma- producto de dichas decisiones es que >eventualmente llegamos a crecer (un proceso muy lleno de estrellones, por >cierto :-)). >Ciertamente tenemos una gran responsabilidad en nuestras manos, >pues cada una de nuestras decisiones afecta de alguna manera u otra a >nuestro projimo. De ahi la importancia de olvidarnos de nosotros mismos cuando tomemos una decision en nuestro andar por el 'sendero'. Nuestra principal preocupacion siempre debe ser: *el beneficio de la Humanidad*, no nuestro propio beneficio, sea este material o espiritual. Esa es la razon por que la Sociedad Teosofica tiene su titulo de 'Fraternidad Universal', pues es por medio de esa Fraternidad como se hace teosofia. Saludos, Rodolfo > >Chao, >Eric. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:31:10 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Subject: Importancia de Teosofia Message-ID: Yo creo que la importancia de la teosofia en nuestro mundo se debe expresar personalmente en varias etapas: 1- El estudio de la llamada Sabiduria-Divina de los varios Maestros a traves de la historia. 2- La vivencia de esta en nuestra vida personal 3- El compartir las ensenanzas teosoficas a traves de nuestras logias, no solamente en lo teorico sino en su aplicacion practica obtenida aen nuestra vivencia. Martin Paz y Armonia a todos From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:21:31 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Message-ID: Yo creo que la importancia de la teosofia en nuestro mundo se debe expresar personalmente en varias formas: 1- El estudio de la llamada Sabiduria-Divina de los varios Maestros a traves de la historia. 2- La vivencia de esta en nuestra vida personal. 3- El compartir las ensenanzas teosoficas a traves de nuestras logias, no solamente en lo teorico sino en su aplicacion practica obtenida en nuestra vivencia. Aunque parece simplistico, lo anterior tiene como resultado el sentimiento fraterno hacia todos los seres. =BFAlgun comentario sobre el respecto? Martin Paz y Armonia a todos From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:37:25 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960926174941.1d0720ae@iprolink.co.nz> Alan, >>Maybe delays due to my getting theos-l in >>digest form are the problem. >Suggest you get the help file and set ack. Thanks, but no. I like the condensation that digest form gives, even if the delays slow up dialogue a bit. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:37:28 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960926174944.1d0725c2@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck, >Take heart. I find the idea of you agreeing with me as frightening as the >thought of me agreeing with you. Mutually Assured Disapproval, eh? >You, of course, have a significant >advantage over me in that you actually knew Hodson, whereas I can only >judge the man by his writings. It may be that there was a side of him >that you did not see, or it may be that the writings themselves are >flawed. > >Certainly there is material in my notes that would give a totally >different picture of me than the one people who know me have, both from >the fact that there are things I don't talk about and there are ideas I >play with but don't act on. > >The Geoffrey Hodson of the Diaries is a totally different man than the one >you describe and a far less pleasant one. The one you describe I regret >not having known. The one in the Diaries I regret never having had the >chance to go after. Which was the real Hodson? That may be the key to all >this. I find it interesting that the tone of his diary "Light of the Sanctuary" is different from "The Ascent to Yogic Heights", though the former has parts with the same tone as the latter. One thing we can be certain of, and that is that no one person will have the whole picture, nor one medium of expression (writing or personal contact) reveal the whole story. The historian's dilemma as well as delight. The nearest to the real Hodson was, for me, when he was in contemplative mood or experiencing some kind of awe, both of which were pretty common in his life and probably a constant undercurrent. The outer stuff was projection, masks and symbols, relatively speaking - all those things that we on theos-l like to remind ourselves now and then that all expressions of theo-sophia are. I say let's keep asking the questions and gently remind each other from time to time that the answers may be more amazing, as well as more ordinary, than we currently imagine. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:57:12 -0700 From: Robert Word Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 672 Message-ID: <3249D4E8.6B9F@TIW.COM> theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > > Richard Ihle writes> > Welcome to the list, Robert. Good job with the above. (This is the same > line of suspicious reasoning that is often used to keep marijuana illegal, > isn't it? That is, since marijuanna is the first drug used by most heroin > addicts, marijuana must therefore be a cause of heroin addiction, they say.) The fact that arguments containing logical fallacies may be brought to bear against the use of marijuana does not mean that there are not perfectly valid logical arguments which may be brought to bear against the use of marijuana. However, since I am not a marijuana user, and I scrupulously avoid its use, I am not a partisan for either the "for" or "against" position. In California, there are groups of people who partake of marijuana for medicinal purposes, and prosecutors who will not prosecute them. Nevertheless, there was recently a drug bust against a group of this type in California. I know a certain occult order which theoretically should be against the use of drugs; but I am not above taunting them privately with the fact that one of their study group leaders is a marijuana user and dealer. > > A couple minor points, however: > > 1) I don't think I would venture to judge Aleister Crowley as "immoral." The stated argument, which is made to illustrate a logical fallacy, merely states that "many people believe Crowley to have been an immoral man." But there is obvious room for disagreement on this; and I do not think that Crowley's fanatical followers, of whom there are many in the U.S., would agree with this assessment. > Here is the extent of my misgivings about him as given in my original post: > "There were some things which I thought were valuable. However, in the back > of my mind was always this thought: 'Here is a man who reputedly knows so > much and has all these powers, but his life story, when all is said and done, > is basically that he started off with all the advantages of an inherited > fortune and ended up more-or-less bankrupt and a drug addict to boot.'I believe this to be correct; however, even when the last penny of his inheritance was spent, I am told his father had left him a second inheritance providing him with 300 pounds a year in income, which was no mean sum in those days. Crowley died comfortably, if not well off. That Crowley poor was a viper has something to do with the fact that he become poor, but also that he could be a viper in such circumstances. Had he grown up poor and worked for a living, perhaps he would have developed different qualities of character. But we shall never know this. oe> [Correct me if I am wrong in this.] Furthermore, I gradually got the > distinct feeling that he may not have been the most ~wholesome~ guy around." I think you are right. Why does he need to invoke the name of Satan (or at least a form thereof) somewhere in one of his A.A. rituals? But most advanced occultists have concluded that they could not afford to ignore Crowley entirely. Also, I do not think that I can be entirely in favor of his "ritual for destroying the Golden Dawn". > > By ~wholesome~ I was thinking more along the lines of "conducive to sound > health or well-being"--his own and that of those who were influenced by > him--rather than morality. To show what egregious non-logic I sometimes use > in cases like this, I must admit that this feeling really didn't start taking > hold until after I started seeing photographs of him. As Albert Camus once > said, "After a certain age, every man is responsible for his own face." > Unfair and inaccurate as it might be, I didn't like what I thought I saw in > Crowley's face at all. Perhaps Crowley became somewhat obsessed with one of the Abramelin demons, which he admitted, he often invoked. Crowley is supposed to stated:"God and Satan struggled for my Soul; God won; but now I know not which of the twain was God, and which Satan." I had lived quite comfortably with all the iron > daggers, pentagrams, and statements about how he wanted to be the Devil's > "chief of staff" (or something like that) etc. for quite a while; however, > once the trappings and ideas got connected to what, rightly or wrongly, > seemed to me like a debauched face, I decided that perhaps it was time to > investigate other paths as well (including other, not-so-Crowley, Magic > paths).I think there is a lot to what you say. But beware of seeing the projection of your own shadow in Crowley. > > But I have done this type of thing "in reverse" as well. Dare I reveal that > one of the main reasons I became interested in Transcendental Meditation was > that I liked the way the Maharishi always looked so smiley and benign? That I > read the Secret Doctrine because HPB's eyes actually appeared capable of > seeing Invisible Worlds? Gurdjieff because of his mustache and Master-like > presence? Rudolf Steiner because of his pure, dispassionate countenance? > Krisnamurti because of the inner strength and resoluteness which seemed to > radiate through his slightness? > > Is this something I shouldn't be admitting? How do you get to be a seer > without practicing your seeing, then? No there isn't. These are as good reasons as any to stop and listen to what someone has to say, or to chant their mantras. Incidentally, your TM mantra is the same as a lot of other people's TM mantra; and all teachers of TM know the entire truth about this. But the state of samadhi (or at least a state which they call samadhi) has more interest and appeal to them than minor considerations of intellectual truth. > > And 2) Might an "analogical flaw" between your two "bad reasoning" examples > be that the first one doesn't appeal to the ~intuition~ as having much > potential for a specific cause-and-effect relationship?A logical fallacy is a mistaken way from drawing conclusions. But this does not prevent you from loving someone because you see a special light in his eyes. And Crowley's immorality, if indeed that is what it was, would have a complete logical bearing on any questions actually pertaining to immorality. > > Good old generic theosophy: it can at least give the impression of saving > you when you don't have a leg to stand on, otherwise. . . . > > Best wishes and Godspeed, > > Richard IhleBest wishes and Godspeed, Bishop Word+ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:29:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: HPB Message Message-ID: Dear all, I have placed on my homepage the first of five messages from HPB to W.Q.Judge first published in India in 1930. The other four will foloow as I get around to them. From my main homepage, click on Theosophical Writings, and make your way via the history folder to a new folder (directory) called HPB. The file HPB.txt which you will see en route is by GRS Mead, and is *about* HPB. The HPB Folder I am setting aside for her own writings. Enjoy. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:07:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The 1995 letter Message-ID: In message <199609250448.AA12533@angel.elektra.ru>, Uri Macnev writes >Hello! > >* Forwarded by Uri Macnev >* From : Kay Ziatz > >Subj: The 1995 letter >To: M.K.Ramadoss > > Hello. > > I've finally translated the letter to Roerich congress which I >mentioned before. For those who haven't read my previous letter I repeat >that this anonymous letter was passed by unknown women to presidium of >the congress which took place in Moscow last year. Also I have to re- >peat that because of my poor English and original style of the document >I couldn't make an adequate translation. K.Z. I thank you for posting this, as I am sure will MKR. Although the English is a little strangely worded, I find that the letter has all the indications I would expect to see in a genuine message from a "higher" source. I sincerely hope someone can be found who can do an improved translation, though in many ways it isn't so necessary ... Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:15:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 666 (poss. copy) Message-ID: In message <960925161834_293078844@emout15.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Dare I reveal that >one of the main reasons I became interested in Transcendental Meditation was >that I liked the way the Maharishi always looked so smiley and benign? That I >read the Secret Doctrine because HPB's eyes actually appeared capable of >seeing Invisible Worlds? Gurdjieff because of his mustache and Master-like >presence? Rudolf Steiner because of his pure, dispassionate countenance? > Krishnamurti because of the inner strength and resoluteness which seemed to >radiate through his slightness? Of course you may dare - upon your own head be it! > >Is this something I shouldn't be admitting? How do those seers get to be >seers without practicing their seeing, then? Admitting you are as human in your predilictions as "ordinary" folk is sometimes frowned upon in the rarified atmosphere of theosophical meetings. Sure, lip service to such fallibility is often uttered, but methinks it is oten the carrot in front of the donkey. We donkeys must stick together. Join TI. The trouble with genuine seership is that things are likely to be seen that people do not want to be told. "To know, to will, to dare, and to be silent." Go for silence, it's the safest. Anything else and the *&%^%!!* will do their best (or worst) to get you. Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:52:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 672 Message-ID: <$uT5IBAKHeSyEwl7@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3249D4E8.6B9F@TIW.COM>, Robert Word writes >Bishop Word+ Should it not be +Robert? They won't let this pass lightly ... Apostate Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:13:46 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson & Science Message-ID: <960926101345_317878196@emout07.mail.aol.com> Murray, All very true. And a good, friendly fight from time to time keeps our minds sharp as well. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:25:02 -0700 From: martinle@lainet.com (Martin Leiderman) Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 27 Message-ID: Eric, los 4 topicos estan bien descritos. Sobre el libre albedrio dices: "factor clave para nuestra evolucion indivudializada, ya que atraves de este se manifiesta nuestra voluntad, y en base a las experiencias ..." Lo importante es por lo tanto, estudiar el mecanismo de la relacion de la voluntad y el libre albedrio. Debemos recordar que nuestro libre albedrio esta condicionada por nuestras experiencias acumuladas las cuales presionan conciente o inconcientemente nuestros actos fisicos y mentales, y geneticamente por los eskandas que traemos de las vidas pasadas. El tercer elemento de importancia aqui, es la toma de conciencia que es despertada a traves de la reflexion y meditacion sobre nuestros actos. Alli encontramos como este condicionamiento nos afecta. El descubrir estas causas o "semillas" (termino bien explicado por Taimni en La Ciencia de la Yoga) y eliminarlas podemos incrementar nuestra voluntad a medida que ejercitamos nuestro libre albredio. Sin este trabajo interior (meditacion) el trabajo sera meramente teorico y lento. Rodolfo apunta al trabajo por "el beneficio de la Humanidad" el cual sin duda es el TEMA or Nota Clave (Key Note del Maha Chohan) para la Humanidad. Recordando las palabras de Leadbeater: La Nota Clave del Reino Animal es la competencia y del Reino Humano es la Cooperacion. Por lo tanto, todo signo de competencia proviene de eskandas muy arcanos y enterrados en nuestra mente rondas anteriores. Este estudio interior debera hacerce sin miedo a verse uno como es, y con energia suficiente para promover el cambio. Por favor compartan, sus experiencias sobre este mecanimo "magico" del desarrollo de la Voluntad, del despertar de la conciencia, y el estudio de las causas del condicionamiento que nos apega a una Maya y realmente no conduce a un libre albedrio per se. Me gustaria saber tambien sus opiniones de como trabajar esto en Las Logias teosoficas. Martin Paz y Armonia a todos From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 19:09:11 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Spiritual Indicators (fwd) Message-ID: <199609262309.TAA08387@leo.vsla.edu> Having spent the first half of my dinner hour skimming a new book called The Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators, I'm spending the second half posting tidbits to all the lists I read, since there's stuff here relevant to everyone. 2/3 of Americans say they have a personal commitment to Jesus Christ, but 44 percent of self-described Christians say they are "moderately committed" to the faith vs. 41 percent "absolutely committed." 68 percent say they have felt the presence of God at some time in their lives, but 71 percent say they have never felt it in church. The percentage of people who call themselves religious is now 60. 85 percent of Americans consider themselves Christians, and the Catholic/Protestant ratio remains stable. Asked about whether they had favorable or unfavorable, strong or weak feelings about various groups' influence, people viewed Christians most favorably, then Jews, with Muslims and Buddhists tied at only 29 percent favorable, with atheists dead last at 14 percent. Scientologists had the highest negatives at 39 percent, but 21 percent were favorable. 58 percent of Americans believe the Bible is totally accurate, and 45 percent think that everything in it can be taken literally. 93 percent believe that God exists, but only 88 percent believe that Jesus really lived. Yet 85 percent believe in the virgin birth, and the same number believe in the resurrection. Still, 44 percent say Jesus was human and committed sins. 70 percent believe he will return to earth. Levels of religious knowledge are amazingly low: 38% believe that the entire Bible was written in the decades after the death of Jesus. 10% think NOAH'S WIFE WAS NAMED JOAN OF ARC!!! 22 percent believe that Jesus was unmarried because "He was a priest and priests did not marry." Almost a third of Americans don't know how many apostles there were, 41 percent don't know where Jesus was born, and 80 percent believe mistakenly that the Bible includes the quote "God helps those that help themselves." Although 73 percent believe in all the Biblical miracles, only 8 percent believe that astrology can predict the future. Still, about 20% consistently describe themselves as New Agers during the last 8 years. This is probably enough of a taste to whet people's appetites-- if this kind of material interests you, look for the book at a bookstore or library. The main thing that comes through all the statistics is that spiritual diversity and syncretism are making headway, churches are not held in high repute and are losing influence, knowledge about religion is declining, religious activities are declining, but basic adherence to Christianity (ever more loosely defined) remains stable. The new perception of religion is "a personalized, customized form of faith views which meets personal needs, minimize rules and absolutes, and which bears little resemblance to the `pure' form of any of the world's major religions."(p. 139) If anyone has any questions about other statistics I'll look them up. Comments? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:34:34 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Hodson and Science Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960927174650.1bd730fe@iprolink.co.nz> Chuck, >All very true. And a good, friendly fight from time to time keeps our >minds sharp as well. Yes, we've had a few fights on theos-l, when you look back over the last year or two, but not so many good friendly ones. Now, what about all those other topics we raised along the way? (Not really - just kidding!) Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:45:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: HPB Message Message-ID: CORRECTION: You may find that the directions below do not work. It didn't work on my test, so I am re-arranging my website. Apologies to anyone who was inconvenienced - the fault lies with my ISP, as I can ftp in and out, but not www in and out. Oh no. Watch this space! Alan In message , "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes > >Dear all, > >I have placed on my homepage the first of five messages from HPB to >W.Q.Judge first published in India in 1930. The other four will foloow >as I get around to them. > >>From my main homepage, click on Theosophical Writings, and make your way >via the history folder to a new folder (directory) called HPB. The file >HPB.txt which you will see en route is by GRS Mead, and is *about* HPB. >The HPB Folder I am setting aside for her own writings. > >Enjoy. > >Alan >--------- >Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Figure "one" after WWW) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 26 Sep 96 23:30:12 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Initiation - Something's begun Message-ID: <960927033011_74024.3352_BHT80-1@CompuServe.COM> WOW! Did you see the lunar eclipse? In Houston, it was S P E C T A C U L A R !!!! The moon turned red at the bottom. It seemed covered in rust, blood or volcanic dust. It look like a large breast with the reddish nipple and pink aureole pointed toward the earth. The craters looked sometime like a face of a clown, then a demon, then a jack-o-latern. Then the face turned into two angel wings surmounting a headless body. The astrological indicators showed moon conjunct saturn in aries opposing the sun in libra. The north node was conjunct the sun so it was the tail of the dragon or Ketu who was eatting the moon. I felt something was beginning. The quickening is intensifying. The moon never looked so much like a "GLOBE" that was alive, moving, shifting in currents of color. Supposedly their are vast movements on the sublunar annd astral plane during an eclipse. Vast life waves are being moved off the moon and onto our globe or are being moved occultly through the hole of Ketu. New souls incarnate prenatally during this time. Lovely luncay! Did ya see it? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:08:03 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@rci.ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: Initiation - Something's begun Message-ID: Nope...we had rain here in Chicago... probably Uncle Chuckie messing with his psionic machines. Maybe next century....(sigh) Marj (the un-heretic, but probable luna-tic) -- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:05:24 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Subject: Letter to the Roerich Congress Message-ID: <199609271203.HAA06146@main.com> Uri, Could you by any chance send a copy of the original letter in Russian, using uuencode? Thanks Paul K From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 27 Sep 96 08:21:28 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Spiritual Indicators Message-ID: <960927122127_72723.2375_FHP63-1@CompuServe.COM> KPJ: > The new perception of religion is "a personalized, customized form >of faith views which meets personal needs, minimize rules and >absolutes, and which bears little resemblance to the `pure' >form of any of the world's major religions."(p. 139) I was wondering what type of church/organization would match up to this description. The first one that came to mind was Unity, with its freedom of thought and emphasis on classes and education. I know that in Chicago and Oak Park, their buildings are packed to the walls. Sounds to me that rather than lumping everyone in a big church group and dictating codes of conduct, that every person would be treated as an individual and their personal needs met from that angle. How does TS fit into this picture? My answer would be that it fits as much as it would like to fit. It has a lot to give along these lines IF it decides to make itself understandable and applicable to the common person, rather than an elite group. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 8:42:08 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Spiritual Indicators (fwd) Message-ID: <199609271242.IAA18059@leo.vsla.edu> According to Gregory Goode: > > Here are some questions: > > 1. How/where/when was the sampling done? Was anything done to make it > representative of the U.S. at large? Personal interviews, snail-mail, > e-mail, malls, house-to-house, urban, rural, Bible-belt? 28 different nationwide telephone surveys, sample size varying from 417 to 2410, the smaller ones being special populations like Protestant pastors. Method was random-digit dial. > > 2. How many believe in reincarnation? > I searched in vain for that before you asked. But only 31% believe in hell as a physical place of torment, while 40% believe in Satan's existence. > 3. How many would associate themselves with new age philosophies or an > esoteric interpretation of Christianity? > The conclusion establishes 7 categories: Biblical Christianity, which claims 7-10% in surveys from 1991 to 19965, which involves full acceptance of the Bible's authority, total trust in Christ for salvation, involvement in evangelism, active church participation, belief in moral absolutes, etc. Conventional Christianity, ranging from 25 to 33 percent in these years, is defined as acceptance of basic Christian doctrine but "life only vaguely influenced by faith views" and belief that morality is relative. Cultural Christianity , ranging from 21 to 33 percent, is universalism and works-based theology, nominal church involvement, Christian in name and heritage only. New Age practitioner, to answer your question, claims 19 to 22 percent, defined as "faith as a private matter, religious principles from variety of sources, no centralized religious authority, deity intermingled with self, more focused upon religious consciousness than religious practice." Jews are 1-2 percent, atheist/agnostic 4-10, (most surveys from 8-10) and other 5-9. > --Greg Goode > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:13:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Spiritual Indicators (fwd) Message-ID: <960927101333_531192394@emout09.mail.aol.com> Paul, It would really be interesting to see the demographic breakdown on those numbers, particularly by age and region. They are not indicitave of my neighbors or anyone I know in or outside of theosophy. That does not mean the polling results are not accurate, but one must wonder as to the details. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:14:21 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hodson and Science Message-ID: <960927101421_531192871@emout01.mail.aol.com> Murray, I hope you're kidding, because I can't remember them all. And it is true we do lose our tempers at times. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 13:46:25 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Time on our side? Message-ID: <199609271746.NAA01062@leo.vsla.edu> Here's another tidbit from the Indicators book: people under 30 are much less likely than older adults to attend church, say they are "absolutely committed" to Christianity, meet the "born again" criteria, strongly agree that the Bible can be taken literally, accept the notion that people who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior will be condemned to hell.. and are more likely than older people to believe that all people pray to the same gods, no matter what name they assign..and are much more likely than older adults to read their horoscope. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:06:02 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: spiritual indicators Message-ID: <199609271814.OAA22749@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Paul, I'd be interested in figures as to how many believe that God is outside the world, to that God is the world. Thanks Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 19:38:06 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Questions about Spiritual Indicators Message-ID: <199609272338.TAA01341@leo.vsla.edu> Hi-- glad several people had comments on the book. Curses on the head of whomever decided to publish it without an index, which made it much harder to find answers. But-- Ann's question wasn't specifically about the book. However, I'd say Unity has done so much better than Theosophy at meeting contemporary needs because it addresses the whole person with a wide variety of programs and emphases. Theosophy has been pretty stuck in an educational model, addressing the mind alone. Of course if you persevere and get to join the ES, then great spiritual benefits flow :) In Unity, people's needs for spiritual experience, social support systems, education, etc. are more broadly recognized, as in A.R.E. Chuck asked about demographics. The book addresses regional differences, most of which are already obvious. Southerners are more religious, more evangelical than any other group. Northeasterners are more New Agey, more atheistic, with Westerners close behind. Midwesterners are not leading in any category but tend to the middle. The older a person is, the more likely she is to adhere to Biblical dogma, be evangelical, and so on. Liesel asked about what people mean by God, and I'll quote: "When it comes to defining what `God' means to people, a surprisingly large proportion-- nearly three out of ten-- describe a deity other than the God portrayed in the Bible. The other depictions of God include: a higher state of consciousness that an individual may reach (11 percent); the total realization of human potential (8 percent); the belief that there are many gods, each with its own power and authority (3 percent); everyone is their own god (3 percent); and 2 percent who maintain that there is no such thing as God. I can tell that this research organization has an evangelical bias by the weird way they design questions. All the above definitions seem goofy to me, and none is pantheistic. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 27 Sep 96 20:19:59 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Something's begun Message-ID: <960928001959_72723.2375_FHP67-2@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >WOW! Did you see the lunar eclipse? In Houston, it was S P E C T A C U L A R!!!! Yes! I saw it right in my living room, on TV, direct from Boston! It looked just like you described it and it filled the whole screen like a giant red potato. In Chicago, that was the only place you could see it because it was raining like hades. Tried to find some esoteric info about ecclipses that would pertain to it, but I was unable to locate anything in the books I have. Namaste -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri Sep 27 20:28:58 1996 From: John Straughn Subject: Maitreya(sp?) Message-ID: <199609280028.UAA29622@envirolink.org> Has anyone else come across this name on their newsgroups? Supposedly, Maitreya is the Messiah, and he's been here since the seventies, hiding out in the himalayas or something. Hehe...I don't know whether to believe it or not, but if what they're saying is true, we should hear his "voice" very clearly in our minds within the next few years....who knows? btw, he's not here to destroy the world either. He's here to bring together humanity. So, even if he's not the Christ returned, he sounds like an ok guy to me. Anyone got any inside information on this subject? I'm skeptical, (its in my nature, I suppose), but hey, if it can be proven, esp. by the scientific method, I just might take some of this info. seriously. "There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) --- The Triaist From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:19:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Initiation - Something's begun Message-ID: <9my5aFALEGTyEwMd@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960927033011_74024.3352_BHT80-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >Vast life waves are being moved off the moon and onto our >globe or are being moved occultly through the hole of Ketu. New souls incarnate >prenatally during this time. >Lovely luncay! > >Did ya see it? In Bristol, England - no :-). What is the hole of Ketu? No doubt this is very meaningful to some, but a newbie to the list would wonder if you had all your marbles intact, so I thought I would ask on such a one's behalf. Also I don't know either. Your friend and mine, Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:48:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Maitreya(sp?) Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, John Straughn wrote: > Has anyone else come across this name on their newsgroups? Supposedly, > Maitreya is the Messiah, and he's been here since the seventies, hiding out in > the himalayas or something. Hehe...I don't know whether to believe it or not, > but if what they're saying is true, we should hear his "voice" very clearly in > our minds within the next few years....who knows? I have heard about it and have even seen some publications. Who can tell if the person who claims himself as Messiah is a Messiah or not? Even if Messiah were to visit me today, none of my problems and responsibilities are going to go away. I have to deal with them myself and myself alone. So I will keep an open mind with a good dose of healthy skepticism, because there is always the possibility that I may be wrong. > > btw, he's not here to destroy the world either. He's here to bring together > humanity. So, even if he's not the Christ returned, he sounds like an ok guy > to me. Anyone got any inside information on this subject? I'm skeptical, > (its in my nature, I suppose), but hey, if it can be proven, esp. by the > scientific method, I just might take some of this info. seriously. > > "There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) > --- > The Triaist > > > MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:53:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Maitreya(sp?) Message-ID: In message <199609280028.UAA29622@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >Has anyone else come across this name on their newsgroups? Supposedly, >Maitreya is the Messiah, and he's been here since the seventies, hiding out in >the himalayas or something. Hehe...I don't know whether to believe it or not, >but if what they're saying is true, we should hear his "voice" very clearly in >our minds within the next few years....who knows? He used to be J.Krishnamurti until the guy said no he wasn't. A certain Bishop Leadbeater and the Head of the Theosophical Society were not amused. Last I heard he was a guy called Benjamin Creme [sic] living in London, England. > >btw, he's not here to destroy the world either. He's here to bring together >humanity. So, even if he's not the Christ returned, he sounds like an ok guy >to me. Anyone got any inside information on this subject? I'm skeptical, >(its in my nature, I suppose), but hey, if it can be proven, esp. by the >scientific method, I just might take some of this info. seriously. Don't! > >"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) So do I, which is why I am replying! >--- >The Triaist What's a Triast, John? > Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:31:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Organizational Evolution Message-ID: Recently, the Boston Computer Society, the largest computer user group in the US with about 18,000 members shut itself down because it suddenly found that members are using the Internet for meeting the needs that the Society used to. A former board member said that people used to be drawn to the society as a place to share ideas, information, and comaraderie. One of the major things that fulfilled these is the Internet. The President of Philadelphia Association of Computer Users feels that Computer Neophytes were drawn to these groups as a way to get information quickly. This changing landscape raises a very important question. Can this phenomenon not spread to other organizations including Theosophical ones, thus eliminating the need for an organization with a formal structure -- and of course all the political wranglings and intrigues and exploitation (in the areas of physical and "spiritual".) I will not be surprised if the Internet Juggernaught spells a deathblow to organizations as we know it. As one interested in the rise and fall of organizational structures, the whole question is fascinating. Just thought I should share the above thoughts. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:02:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Time on our side? Message-ID: <960928020212_319257905@emout09.mail.aol.com> Paul, The same would have been true 30 years ago. What is really needed is a 60-under60 breakdown. How they think after they have a few years on their tummies and responsibilities is the real indicator of where a society is going. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:11:12 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: Re:A Messiah Message-ID: <199609280911.JAA15893@rvik.ismennt.is> At 00:31 28.09.1996 -0400, Alan wrote: > >He used to be J.Krishnamurti until the guy said no he wasn't. A certain >Bishop Leadbeater and the Head of the Theosophical Society were not >amused. > Einar here: I find the fact, that Krishnamurti renounced his role as the World Teacher, to be the shurest indication that he might have been just that. There are few spiritual thinkers that have had more profound influence on the scientific thinking, and therby on our worldview, in the longer run. And THAT is a sure trait of a Messiah. A self-proclaimed Messiah!.... NO, THANK YOU! And More! The fact that Leadbeater found "the boy" is to me probably the only "impeccable proof" of his proclaimed psychic abilities! >> >>"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) > The original text to the emblem of Theosophical Society I believe is: "Satya Nasti Paro Dharma" (Sanskrit or Pali?). My sources tell me that it should have translated as: "There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" Some Sankrit Scolar out there? With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:18:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re:A Messiah Message-ID: Einar: You are on target on all your comments. M K Ramadoss On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B. wrote: > At 00:31 28.09.1996 -0400, Alan wrote: > > > >He used to be J.Krishnamurti until the guy said no he wasn't. A certain > >Bishop Leadbeater and the Head of the Theosophical Society were not > >amused. > > > Einar here: > > I find the fact, that Krishnamurti renounced his role as the World Teacher, > to be the shurest indication that he might have been just that. There are > few spiritual thinkers that have had more profound influence on the > scientific thinking, and therby on our worldview, in the longer run. And > THAT is a sure trait of a Messiah. > A self-proclaimed Messiah!.... NO, THANK YOU! > > And More! > The fact that Leadbeater found "the boy" is to me probably the only > "impeccable proof" of his proclaimed psychic abilities! > > >> > >>"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) > > > > The original text to the emblem of Theosophical Society I believe is: > > "Satya Nasti Paro Dharma" (Sanskrit or Pali?). > > My sources tell me that it should have translated as: > > "There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" > > Some Sankrit Scolar out there? > > With LOVE to you all. > > Einar from Iceland. > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > Let's change the world, > by each of us changing ourselves, > TOGETHER. > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:24:27 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Maitreya(sp?) Message-ID: <960928112427_113108682@emout14.mail.aol.com> There's this nut named Benjamin Creme and he has this refugee from somewhere hidden in the London sewers and trots out pictures of him in a turban every now and then to have him make pronouncements that are utter garbage, but what would you expect from someone working in a sewer. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 28 Sep 96 13:08:51 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Ecce homo, ad nauseum, ad hominem Message-ID: <960928170851_74024.3352_BHT52-2@CompuServe.COM> <3246B36A.566E@TIW.COM>, Robert Word writes >By allowing an ad hominem argument of this type, we may reason as >follows. Aleister Crowley was a man who lived a life which many >would regard as immoral. Aleister Crowley graduated from >Cambridge University. Therefore, we ought not ourselves to attend >Cambridge University, nor should we allow our children to do so. Quite so! Alan :-) And Hitler was a vegetarian and so it makes you spiritual, yeah right! Neitsche went crazy and that's what thinking will get you. Christ was crucified and he ain't come back home yet. Promises, promises! Never believe a man who eats with whores and tax collectors and as far as I can tell was a lover of men (Platonically like Plato with Dion maybe). I say it ain't over till the fat lady signs, the trumpet sounds, the clear light is seen, the ring pass-not is grabbed and the last sentient being achieves Nirvana. Let he who is without dirty wash walk on water. I never met a spiritual man or women I really liked until I heard they cut a fart or two. :) And despite all the hagiographers and demonizers, I bet HPB was really just as human as you or I And from what I've heard she had her fun! I say Ms. HPB you go on with your bad self wherever you are, girl! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 28 Sep 96 13:37:34 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Initiation, etc. Message-ID: <960928173733_72723.2375_FHP59-2@CompuServe.COM> Keith Price: >>Vast life waves are being moved off the moon and onto our >>globe or are being moved occultly through the hole of Ketu. New souls incarnate >>prenatally during this time. >>Lovely luncay! > >>Did ya see it? Alan: >What is the hole of Ketu? No doubt this is very meaningful to some, but >a newbie to the list would wonder if you had all your marbles intact, so >I thought I would ask on such a one's behalf. Also I don't know either. Ya gotta read it like poetry and just enjoy the words creating a moood. BTW, what is the hole of Ketu? Sounds like one of those jump gates they use on Babylon 5, that syndicated sci-fi TV show. -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:15:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jamie (by way of ramadoss@eden.com) Subject: Fw: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960928202018.273f7df2@mail.eden.com> jamie_f@america.com http://www.america.com/~jamie_f/ ClubIE (MS Internet Explorer) member SiteBuilder Network Level 2 Member ---------- > From: Ron Secord > To: enhance-users@enhance.co.uk > Subject: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > Date: Saturday, September 28, 1996 6:07 AM > > Hello all, just thought I'd pass this tidbit of info on in case some > don't know about it. Received it today (9/28/96) > Regards, Ron > > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:53:02 -1000 (HST) > From: Christopher Erice > Subject: ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > > Hi All, > > We received the following message from our server about a virus on the > internet. Please read and take note. > > > ========================================================================= > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF EXTENSION. A > NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the Internet with the name > PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this file is a > new version of the PKZIP software used to "zip" compressed files. DO > NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!! If you install or > expand the file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean and affect > modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely destructive virus and > there is NOT yet a way of cleaning this one up. > > PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE YOU KNOW. > > ========================================================================= > --------------------------------------------------- > Cordman's Home Page > http://www.ime.net/~cordman/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:15:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jamie (by way of ramadoss@eden.com) Subject: Fw: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960928202018.273f7df2@mail.eden.com> jamie_f@america.com http://www.america.com/~jamie_f/ ClubIE (MS Internet Explorer) member SiteBuilder Network Level 2 Member ---------- > From: Ron Secord > To: enhance-users@enhance.co.uk > Subject: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > Date: Saturday, September 28, 1996 6:07 AM > > Hello all, just thought I'd pass this tidbit of info on in case some > don't know about it. Received it today (9/28/96) > Regards, Ron > > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:53:02 -1000 (HST) > From: Christopher Erice > Subject: ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > > Hi All, > > We received the following message from our server about a virus on the > internet. Please read and take note. > > > ========================================================================= > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF EXTENSION. A > NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the Internet with the name > PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this file is a > new version of the PKZIP software used to "zip" compressed files. DO > NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!! If you install or > expand the file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean and affect > modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely destructive virus and > there is NOT yet a way of cleaning this one up. > > PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE YOU KNOW. > > ========================================================================= > --------------------------------------------------- > Cordman's Home Page > http://www.ime.net/~cordman/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:15:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jamie (by way of ramadoss@eden.com) Subject: Fw: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960928202018.273f7df2@mail.eden.com> jamie_f@america.com http://www.america.com/~jamie_f/ ClubIE (MS Internet Explorer) member SiteBuilder Network Level 2 Member ---------- > From: Ron Secord > To: enhance-users@enhance.co.uk > Subject: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > Date: Saturday, September 28, 1996 6:07 AM > > Hello all, just thought I'd pass this tidbit of info on in case some > don't know about it. Received it today (9/28/96) > Regards, Ron > > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:53:02 -1000 (HST) > From: Christopher Erice > Subject: ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > > Hi All, > > We received the following message from our server about a virus on the > internet. Please read and take note. > > > ========================================================================= > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF EXTENSION. A > NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the Internet with the name > PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this file is a > new version of the PKZIP software used to "zip" compressed files. DO > NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!! If you install or > expand the file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean and affect > modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely destructive virus and > there is NOT yet a way of cleaning this one up. > > PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE YOU KNOW. > > ========================================================================= > --------------------------------------------------- > Cordman's Home Page > http://www.ime.net/~cordman/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:19:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Dharma Message-ID: In message <199609280911.JAA15893@rvik.ismennt.is>, "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." writes >>>"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) >> > >The original text to the emblem of Theosophical Society I believe is: > >"Satya Nasti Paro Dharma" (Sanskrit or Pali?). > >My sources tell me that it should have translated as: > >"There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" Even if your sources are wrong, it sounds better than the translation we have! Dharma, though, is more than just doctrine, isn't it? (I am actually asking this question - it is not rhetorical). Alan --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:13:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Organizational Evolution Message-ID: Dear Doss, Well now, this is why some od us got together and started Theosophy International - it meets all the non-hierarchical and non-power-struggle criteria. Shame you don't join us - many of the list subscribers belong, as you know. Alan :-) In message , "m.k. ramadoss" writes > >Recently, the Boston Computer Society, the largest computer user group in >the US with about 18,000 members shut itself down because it suddenly >found that members are using the Internet for meeting the needs that the >Society used to. > >A former board member said that people used to be drawn to the society as >a place to share ideas, information, and comaraderie. One of the major >things that fulfilled these is the Internet. The President of >Philadelphia Association of Computer Users feels that Computer Neophytes >were drawn to these groups as a way to get information quickly. > >This changing landscape raises a very important question. Can this >phenomenon not spread to other organizations including Theosophical ones, >thus eliminating the need for an organization with a formal structure -- >and of course all the political wranglings and intrigues and >exploitation (in the areas of physical and "spiritual".) I will not be >surprised if the Internet Juggernaught spells a deathblow to >organizations as we know it. As one interested in the rise and fall of >organizational structures, the whole question is fascinating. > >Just thought I should share the above thoughts. > >MK Ramadoss > --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:22:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ecce homo, ad nauseum, ad hominem Message-ID: In message <960928170851_74024.3352_BHT52-2@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I say it ain't over till the fat lady signs, the trumpet sounds, the clear >light is seen, the ring pass-not is grabbed and the last sentient being >achieves Nirvana. Let he who is without dirty wash walk on water. I never met >a spiritual man or women I really liked until I heard they cut a fart or two. >:) "Tra-la-la-la lee whee!" [farts]. Only dirty people wash. Fat Lady --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:15:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jamie (by way of ramadoss@eden.com) Subject: Fw: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960928202018.273f7df2@mail.eden.com> jamie_f@america.com http://www.america.com/~jamie_f/ ClubIE (MS Internet Explorer) member SiteBuilder Network Level 2 Member ---------- > From: Ron Secord > To: enhance-users@enhance.co.uk > Subject: (Fwd) ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > Date: Saturday, September 28, 1996 6:07 AM > > Hello all, just thought I'd pass this tidbit of info on in case some > don't know about it. Received it today (9/28/96) > Regards, Ron > > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:53:02 -1000 (HST) > From: Christopher Erice > Subject: ATTENTION - New Virus On The Internet - ATTENTION (fwd) > > Hi All, > > We received the following message from our server about a virus on the > internet. Please read and take note. > > > ========================================================================= > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF EXTENSION. A > NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the Internet with the name > PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this file is a > new version of the PKZIP software used to "zip" compressed files. DO > NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!! If you install or > expand the file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean and affect > modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely destructive virus and > there is NOT yet a way of cleaning this one up. > > PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE YOU KNOW. > > ========================================================================= > --------------------------------------------------- > Cordman's Home Page > http://www.ime.net/~cordman/ > --------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:57:19 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Dharma Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960928210222.250f8e22@mail.eden.com> At 08:21 PM 9/28/96 -0400, Alan wrote: >In message <199609280911.JAA15893@rvik.ismennt.is>, "Einar Adalsteinsson >& A.S.B." writes >>>>"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) >>> >> >>The original text to the emblem of Theosophical Society I believe is: >> >>"Satya Nasti Paro Dharma" (Sanskrit or Pali?). >> >>My sources tell me that it should have translated as: >> >>"There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" > >Even if your sources are wrong, it sounds better than the translation we >have! Dharma, though, is more than just doctrine, isn't it? (I am >actually asking this question - it is not rhetorical). > >Alan >--------- > Dharma is a Sanskrit word which does not have a precise equivalent english equivalent. The closest is Duty, but it is supposed to be more than Duty. ...Doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:54:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: A Messiah Message-ID: <960928225454_113525398@emout07.mail.aol.com> Einar, I'm not sure that Krishnamurti or anyone else has been or ever will be a "world teacher," but he would certainly be better than the clown in the sewer. I have heard that about the motto before, but not being a sanskrit scholar (can't stand the language) I have no idea if it's true or not. In any event, the modern reading substituting religion for doctrine has served the society quite well, especially as in my view that religion and truth are mutually exclusive concepts anyway. Hoo Ha! Am I gonna upset people with that one. Welcome to the madhouse we call theos-l. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:08:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Satya Nasti Paro Dharma Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B. wrote: > >>"There is no wisdom higher then truth." (I love that!) > > > > The original text to the emblem of Theosophical Society I believe is: > > "Satya Nasti Paro Dharma" (Sanskrit or Pali?). > > My sources tell me that it should have translated as: > > "There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" The emblem of the T.S. carries this motto (English version): "There is no religion higher than Truth." (source: http://www.vnet.net/users/jem/emblem.html) The same source says in part, "Around the emblem appears the motto of the Theosophical Society, "There is no religion higher than Truth." Truth is the quest of every Theosophist, whatever her [sic!] faith, and every great religion reflects in some measure the light of the eternal and spiritual wisdom." 3rd Webster's gives the following meanings of the word "dharma" in Hinduism: a. (1) social custom regarded as one's duty; (2) caste custom; b. civil and criminal law; c. the body of cosmic principles by which all things exist: NATURE: (1) essential function; (2) NATURAL LAW; (3) MORAL LAW, JUSTICE; d. conduct appropriate to onbe's essential nature, establishing the morally sound life that is one of the man's four ends: RIGHTEOUSNESS, RELIGION--orrosed to adharma. My Sanskrit dictionary adds to it: 1. religious injunction or command; 2. conscience; 3. virtue; 4. Dharma, religion, belief system. So it seems that translating "dharma" as "wisdom" is not justified, but "religion" is OK. Another interpretation of the motto may be based on the idea that the Truth is an aspect of the Planetary Logos, so that an enlightened person whose consciousness is one with that of the P.L. should be literally a living expression of the Truth. This in particular means s/he behaves himself/herself in the only possible way compatible with the Truth, which brings the idea of dharma as both the truth of being and *the* law of physical and moral nature. In other words, the number of degrees of freedom reduces to just one. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:00:20 +0100 From: Kim Poulsen Subject: RE: Dharma Message-ID: <01BBADE4.BB2A9760@ppp133.dk-online.dk> >"There is no DOCTRINE (Dharma) higher than truth (Satya)" >Even if your sources are wrong, it sounds better than the translation we >have! Dharma, though, is more than just doctrine, isn't it? (I am >actually asking this question - it is not rhetorical). I think doctrine is the best single word. But the word covers all things a doctrine should contain - also a code of conduct, one's morality, a line of action in accordance with this doctrine: a complete system of thought, in short. It is often used as something like: "a moral behaviour and sense of duty suitable according to the doctrine." The terms dharma and karma has an interesting relation (found the following in one of my old letters): "The moral nature of a man governed by laws of his own making is the mould that creates him. The difference between karma and dharma (duty, moral law: what a man sees as his duty in accordance with his set of moral values) is most interesting. One is an unconscious law of reflex action, an eternal causal boomerang. The other a consciously applied conditioner which works under the direction of one's own will. The workings of the in-voluntary and voluntary nervous system might be seen as holding an analog relationship in the physical body." in friendship, Kim Attachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\WINMAIL1.DAT" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 08:37:24 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: New Era Words & Concepts (Theosophy and A. Bailey) Message-ID: <324E7B8A.6BBF@earthlink.net> New Era Words and Concepts (Theosophy and A. Bailey) Human languages shift and change with each generation. Words come and go and their accepted meaning and connotations change for a variety of reasons. This last century has seen significant changes in the connotations and actual definitions of some significant words. Many words which originally had good and civil connotations and meanings have come, through distortion and inadequate public presentation since the1950's, to have negative and wrong connotations -- making many esoteric writings (i.e., those by H.P.B., A.A.B., etc.) to become the target for much misinterpretation. Some of the words used in these writings which are today often misinterpreted include: esoteric, occult, cult, master, Aryan, the cross called the swastika, initiate, astral, hierarchy, channeling, magic, disciple and new age. The word occult has been the most distorted. This word is conceptually related to the root words ocular and ocultarie which have to do with seeing. Occult philosophy relates to the process of striving to see truth as it is without any of the psychological clouds which often obscure one's vision. The right path of occultism is one of symbolically clearing away the fog so that one may see clearly in order to serve God (the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as best as one is able. The word cult is actually related to the word culture (the crown of civilization) and is used correctly in such phrases as the cult of truth, the cult of goodness, the cult of service and the cult of freedom. The word lucifer originally referred to the principle of wisdom as the "morning star" or the planet Venus symbolically speaking and has to do with Angels who came to earth - not to those of evil intent. This original mythology of the word has been lost in the conventional religious dogma but is used rightly in many theosophical writings. The word Aryan can be used to refer to either the western races in general and or to all of humanity for this current cycle of evolution. The swastika is used throughout India and many parts of Asia and stands for human evolution through experience in the material world. The use of this cross is quite ancient and was greatly distorted, along with the word Aryan, by the nazis. The word astral refers to the emotional world and the astral plane is the realm of emotional experience. The word esoteric relates to those processes which are more spiritual or more abstract than is regularly seen in the world. A master is one who has mastered himself in the Love of God or Christ and when a student speaks of his master he is referring to a person who's example he seeks to follow and to whom he is related by shared spiritual interests and devotion to service -- not to one who has any authoritative control over his life. In this spirit of freedom The Son of God known as Christ is the master of the masters. A disciple is one who seeks to be disciplined (non-fanatically it should be noted) so as to follow the spiritual path that all who have mastered themselves in God's Love have also followed. The hierarchy is the realm of relationships between disciples, masters and God and could be referred to as the kingdom of heaven. One's place in the hierarchy is determined by one's love, humility, compassion and interests as to service in God's Plan. The hierarchy could also be thought of as the next kingdom in nature toward which we all are evolving. The word channeling has been greatly distorted today. Channeling in relation to true spiritual work simply means being a conduit through which the Love of God can flow. True channeling is completely different from the lower mediumship which is unfortunately all too common today. No real disciple or master ever channels via mediumship or unconscious body possession nor do they make any claims as to self-importance and exclusiveness nor charge any money to see channeling. There can be cases of overshadowing and conscious cooperation through telepathy with members of the kingdom of heaven but never are any self-promoting claims put forth as to this and all that would be noticed by those watching would be that the writer or speaker seems to be radiating greater love and wisdom. An initiate is a disciple who has accepted the Love of God and who has freed his motivation from materialistic interests. Magic is the means of attaining such freedom and the three greatest formulas of white magic which have been given to humanity are as follows: 1 - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul; 2 - Love your neighbor as you love yourself; and 3 - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It is the general practice of this white magic which will make the dawning of the new age a great and good opportunity for humanity -- and this is the emphasis of the true theosophical writings and other valid writings on these matters. ------- (Note: most of the writings of HPB, Alice Bailey, H&N Roerich, and the Teachings of the Temple are legitimately done and are of the right "overshadowing and conscious cooperation through telepathy" method). Love, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:14:48 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Dharma Message-ID: <960929101448_319997877@emout06.mail.aol.com> Anything is higher than duty. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:27:28 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to: John Straughn, Re:Maitreya Message-ID: <199609291635.MAA22342@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear John, I had a time finding something like a definition of Maitreya, even though I looked into a number of Buddhist books on my shelf. The quote below is from "Buddhism" by Christmas Humphreys Esq. He was for long years the President of the Buddhist Society in London. Very steeped in Buddhism. Was friendly with DT Suzuki, and the Dalai Lama of his day. Wrote a number of books which make Buddhism more intelligible to a Westerner. He was also a Theosophist. "The Tibetan Pantheon `"..... The DHYANI BODHISATTVAS in turn express themselves or manifest through a human body, which in the eyes of men becomes known as a named Buddha. Thus one of the Dhyani Buddhas or Dhyani Chohans ... reincarnated as the Dhyani Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, who overshadowed, as the Christ principle over shadowed the boy Jesus, the man known to history as Gautama Siddhartha, the Buddha. Thus the world of advanced, self-perfected men is not a haphazard collectiion of those who have preceded their fellows in spiritual development, but a descending hierarchy from the nameless Absolute to the human leaders of mankind. Some of these, says the Wisdom, have once been men, in this or in some previous planet; others have yet to be men. ALL ALIKE ARE SPIRITUAL FORCES, AND AS SUCH BUT ASPECTS OF THE INDIVISIBLE ETERNAL UNITY. The best known of these mighty beings, in the sense that their names most frequently appear in Tibetan Buddhism, are the Dhyani Buddha Amitaba (Amida in Japan, and Opame in Tibetan), Avalokiteshvara (Chenresi) who is at once a name for the colllective host of the Dhyani Budddhas, and one of them, and MAITREYA (in Pali, Metteyya) who will be the next human Buddha, although not for some hundreds of thousands of years......" Seems to me that Maitreya is the Buddhist equivalent of the Messiah. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:37:01 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Organizational Evolution Message-ID: <199609291645.MAA26051@ultra1.dreamscape.com> DEar Doss, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. What kind of an evolution do you see? I thought that theos-l was mostly theosophists talking to each other, and that an occasional new person popped up who needed an answer to a question. I thought we'd evolved very favorably lately. We've had some really good discussions, and very little hair pulling. What is your impression? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: brigitte balint Subject: Moon over Maple Ridge Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960924042415.194fb000@pop.uniserve.com> Hello, Iam a newbie on the net but want to coment on the lunar eclipse. As comented by someone else, the Moon appeared here looking to me as the planet Mars red and very overpowering in size. It was almost as if we are going to by crushed by this "planet" H.P.B. in the Secret Doctrine talks about a 13th hidden planet. Anyway the eclipse was breathtaking here in British Columbia, Canada. Brigitte. One more thought, has anyone seen the programm on PBS regarding the Mandelbrot set? I would love to learn more about this new Theory. It had to to with exploring the most minute particles which became possible with the computor age. What they showed on T.V. was an design like mandalas with little buddhas as the final symbol it lokked very mystereous but also very interesting. Please coment on this. Thank you. Brigitte From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:37:53 -0600 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_?= Ernesto Cruz =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez?= Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 27 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960928214242.1a6fd968@planet.com.mx> At 23:33 25/09/96 -0400, you wrote: Hola que tal a todos los del foro!! Soy yo de nuevo Jes=FAs desde M=E9xico, quiero pedir una disculpa por= haberme ausentando alg=FAn tiempo del foro, pero tuve algunas dificultades= acad=E9micas (ex=E1menes) y me fue dif=EDcil comunicarme. Bien, pasando a otras cosas me= da gusto que m=E1s personas se adhieran a este foro teos=F3fico en espa=F1ol,= solo que habr=EDa que presentarse o por lo menos saber desde donde hablan como= Eric que escribe desde Panam=E1, no creen? :), solo es con la intenci=F3n de conocernos un poco m=E1s. Por otro lado he leido algunas de sus contribuciones y me parecen muy acertadas de todo a todo, pero se han puesto a pensar en esto...si el libre albedr=EDo existe como lo pensamos y tambi=E9n podemos influir en el comportamiento de otras personas con solo nuestros buenos deseos, esto como se ver=EDa de acuerdo con el libre albedr=EDo? y adem=E1s si existe una ley= de Karma, como lo suponemos desde luego, c=F3mo deber=EDamos tratar este= problema de la influiencia sobre el comportamiento sobre un individuo determinado? Estas preguntas me las hago a menudo, porque como podemos influenciar en alguien sin alterar su libre albedr=EDo?, quienes somo nosotros para alterarlo? qu=E9 piensan ustedes chicos, eh? Fraternalmente Jes=FAs Ernesto Cruz Mart=EDnez, Logia Unidad de M=E9xico ----------------------------------- Jes=FAs Ernesto Cruz Mart=EDnez jecruz@planet.com.mx http://www.planet.com.mx/~unidad/index,htm From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:11:23 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Good & Evil Message-ID: <324F102B.13D1@worldnet.att.net> > Crowley is supposed >to stated:"God and Satan struggled for my Soul; God won; but now I >know not which of the twain was God, and which Satan." Nor do I most times. Those who can tell the difference cause much mischief in this world. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:59:54 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: AC Message-ID: <324F0D7A.392@worldnet.att.net> >'Here is a man who reputedly knows so >much and has all these powers, but his life story, when all is said and >done,is basically that he started off with all the advantages of an >inherited fortune and ended up more-or-less bankrupt and a drug addict >to boot.' [Correct me if I am wrong in this.] You are not wrong, but your statements are a bit misleading. I don't want to be in the position of siding with Crowley here, but he actually became poor because he had little regard for money, and he spent virtually all of his fortune publishing his own material (which today is worth a bundle, but in his day he had to practically give away). His "drug" problem began, like so many people, with a doctor's prescription to help his asthma, and he got hooked on it, but without it his asthma was (apparently) worse than the addiction. Probably the singlemost thing that Crowley did that I personally find offensive is that he liked to hunt and advocated the killing of animals for sport. I find this kind of macho "sport" disgusting. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:43:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: AC Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > it his asthma was (apparently) worse than the addiction. Probably > the singlemost thing that Crowley did that I personally find offensive > is that he liked to hunt and advocated the killing of animals for sport. > I find this kind of macho "sport" disgusting. > > Jerry S. > Member, TI Let me add one more thing that I personally find offensive. In one of his writings he has referred to J Krishnamurti as a Nigger. He should know better, Indians are not Niggers. I saw this mentioned in one of my wanderings in WWWs some time ago. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:59:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Organizational Evolution Message-ID: Dear Liesel: The TS, when inaugurated in 1875, was designed on the basis of a formal pyramidal organizational structure with Sections, Lodges, Federations etc. They have helped a lot of Theosophists. Now we have Internet and we have seen an example of a large formal organization having been shut down because the interested members have found that Internet has changed the environment and the needs are no longer met by a formal organization. So from the needs of Theosophists, I am wondering whether the TS is going to be a overtaken by Internet based communication and interaction between interested Theosophists so what will linger on is the organization with its assets which will provide livelyhood for some people and funds for travel etc. The serious inquiring and independent thinking Theosophists may not be looking to the formal TS to meet their needs. We can expect to see a lot of them in the coming years. Theos-l is pioneering in this direction and has already helped a lot of us to discuss various items in a world wide forum, and all this has been made possible by one person who saw the need -- John E Mead. My salute to him. I forsee theos-l participating to mushroom in the years to come. I hope I have made myself clear. MK Ramadoss On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > DEar Doss, > > I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. What kind of an evolution > do you see? > > I thought that theos-l was mostly theosophists talking to each other, and > that an occasional new person popped up who needed an answer to a question. > > I thought we'd evolved very favorably lately. We've had some really good > discussions, and very little hair pulling. > > What is your impression? > > Liesel > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:44:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: AC Message-ID: In message <324F0D7A.392@worldnet.att.net>, Jerry Schueler writes >Probably >the singlemost thing that Crowley did that I personally find offensive >is that he liked to hunt and advocated the killing of animals for sport. >I find this kind of macho "sport" disgusting. So do I, Jerry. I am a mmber of the R.S.P.C.A. in England, which opposes such "sports". (I also belong to the Cat's Protection League). Aren't I a goody two-shoes? Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:40:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dharma Message-ID: <907ZOHAtE0TyEwt$@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <960929101448_319997877@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Anything is higher than duty. That's you off the hook then ... Alan :-) --------- Homepage: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk, and from homepage above. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon Sep 30 03:57:55 1996 From: John Straughn Subject: Triaism Message-ID: <199609300757.DAA15586@envirolink.org> Triaism was a name I gave to myself for my beliefs before I came across "The Secret Doctrine" in a bookstore. HPB's views and theories were so close to mine that I decided to look further into theosophy. The more I read, the more I found that Theosophy was basically my ideas on a much more evolved scale. Also, the TS had much more time and minds than I had to experiment with their ideas, which I later found out to be based on the wisdom of the ancients. There is one thing in which Triaism differs from theosophy. Or, rather, I should say, something that I have not been able to relate to theosophy just yet. That there are three primary differentiations from the ineffable. "Soular" matter being the third. Otherwise, everything else that I have discovered has been "proven" by the theosophical literature I have had the pleasure of reading. So, basically, I suppose I am a theosophist. I only wish there was a way to join some "theosophic monestary" so that I could devote ALL my time to its study. --- The Triaist From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 30 Sep 96 08:17:29 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: A Messiah Message-ID: <960930121729_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >Welcome to the madhouse we call theos-l. Who's "we"? YOu got a bunch of people at your house reading these posts over your shoulder? -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 08:46:22 -0500 From: "Jutta K. Lehmann" Subject: Re: Address sought Message-ID: <199609301244.IAA26198@alcor.concordia.ca> Does anyone know the current address of the Philosophical Research Society (Manley Palmer Hall's followers)? I have a very old address as 3341 Griffith Park Blvd., Los Angeles 27 but I am sure it has changed (dates from 1947). If they have E-mail or a Web site I would also be interested. Many thanks. Jutta Lehmann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:49:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Maitreya Message-ID: <199609301749.TAA21672@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> According to my information Scottish painter Benjamin Creme announced that the new world teacher Maitreya lives incognito amongst us. Creme was to make public on Friday, 14th May 1977 in Los Angeles in what country he resides. I haven't kept track about present excuses for failed predictions. Creme as far as I know makes public now and then pronouncements of the returned Christ. In Europe Benjamin Creme is quite well known. They have a page on internet in Holland and I am sure in many other countries as well. In Dutch newspapers Creme's ideas were linked to Theosophy. I have mentioned him on my page: "On the psychology of spiritual movements": http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html Michael From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 14:09:04 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Warning dreams Message-ID: <199609301809.OAA09215@leo.vsla.edu> This past week I had a strange experience involving dreams, and would like to ask for comments on it, based on how other people understand dreams. Sometime in midweek, I had a very vivid dream that woke me up. In it I was driving in mountains, got distracted trying to shift gears (I have an automatic) and went off a cliff. Or rather, was so far off it in the dream that I awoke before crashing down the mountain. The next night I dreamed about being in a building that exploded. Two nights later, I dreamed (vague details) again about a car wreck, combined with another sinister one about a run-in with Russian police. None of this stuff is at all typical of my dreams. So when my friend Pat called and asked me to go up to the Blue Ridge with her this weekend, and perhaps go on a canoe/kayak trip, I was nervous. Didn't want to say "I can't go because I have had scary dreams this week," besides which this was a beautiful place to go, I had no other plans, and I enjoy her company. So I went, but told her about the dream and asked her to drive extra carefully. The drive up was hairy due to a heavy rain and the hatch being open to hold my kayak, but we arrived safely although cold and wet (and had an unexceptional return.) Sunday morning, the day of the paddling trip, while awakening I had a vision of a death's head skull, sort of face to face with me. As in "staring death in the face." Since I had looked up my astrological transits and saw two accident prone ones around this time, this made me even more spooked. But the morning passed pleasantly, and around noon we got on the river. I drove Pat's standard transmission car through the stretch of Shenandoah Valley between the put-in and take out, admiring the view of the mountains. Although not very wide and having only one class 3 rapid (semi-dangerous) the river had high water from the previous night's rain, and a fair number of downed trees from Hurricane Fran's passage. Still, I breezed through all the rapids, had a great time, no one spilled, and even the big class 3 was no problem. BUT I eddied out of it, waited for someone else to go ahead, then tried to follow their path through the remaining part of the rapid. Not realizing the strength of the current in this last part, I failed to get out into the center of the stream enough to avoid a "strainer"-- a place where a tree blocks part of the river. And the powerful current sucked me and my boat under the tree and underwater. This is the single most dangerous thing that can happen to a paddler, the cause of most river drownings. But there was no time to be scared, or even conscious of when and how I and my boat got separated, as I held my breath while being swept beneath the tree and struggling to surface on the other side. All ended well with dry clothes, lunch, and a beautiful rest of trip. But I am left with a lot of questions. The same kind of questions I had after feeling spooked and nervous before leaving on my summer vacation, almost to the point of cancelling it, in a way no air travel had ever worried me before. I flew TWA out of JFK airport on an international flight the month before flight 800 went down. So-- how should we deal with "warning" impressions, either through dreams or intuition? Especially when they don't seem to be right on the money, but just approximate? At this point I feel that I was a fool not to stay home last weekend in the wake of all the foreboding omens. But all did end well, and none of the "warnings" were specific enough to alert me to the particular danger that could have killed me. With the TWA flight, I felt *something* threatening but didn't know what, and now figure it was the airport and airline rather than my flight or destination that somehow conveyed alarm. My dreams conveyed the sense of disaster on a mountain trip, but nothing about almost drowning. Also, how can we become sensitive to guidance while avoiding turning into paranoid weirdos? On one hand, I'm very grateful to my subconscious mind for alerting me to dangers, but on the other it's still awfully embarrassing to tell people that I won't do something because I'm scared due to bad omens. A skeptic would probably say all these things are coincidences or maybe the dreams actually made me more prone to accidents. But since such impressions are very rare in my life, I'll be inclined to take them a lot more seriously from now on. Finally, isn't it a paradox that an astrological configuration can indicate an period of accident-proneness? It would seem astrology points to an ordered universe; yet it can also identify periods when the order in one's personal universe is most likely to break down. These are heavy questions I'm throwing out, and not very clearly expressed. But I hope they inspire some philosophical or spiritual wisdom in some readers. Thanks for reading. Cheers Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 30 Sep 96 18:00:00 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Dharma Message-ID: <960930220000_72723.2375_FHP52-2@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >Anything is higher than duty. Kites? -Ann E. Bermingham