From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 07:13:02 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:13:02 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701071302.006d1cc8@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 07:29 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >No, an earl or above would probably be taking a cut of the take. It was the >houses of the squirearchy that were attacked and yes, Dick Turpin did, along >with Jack Wild and a few others in that period. > >Chuck > >Well I won't argue but knowing the English Squirearchy ( I have bunches of them as friends) I am surprised any baditot got to make such an attack more than once, They're a remarkable bunch the English "Gentry"! I know ( or rather knew, he's "passed over") a Baronet (and Vice Admiral) whose family had been Baronets for 900 years, they always refused "promotions" on the grounds that their own name was far too honorable to be added to in any way. alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 23:51:55 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:51:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701195152_345746772@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, First they had to catch them, then it depended on which earl was getting part of the take. Chuck From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 1 04:51:15 1996 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:51:15 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960630235409.23576e58@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Breathing Exercises Hi I ran into the following in a book by Ernest Wood, the author of some well known books such as Concentration and Seven Rays. "It was at this period that I made my first experiment in Indian Yoga, I found an article in a popular magazine, describing how the yogis developed extraordinary powers by means of special methods of breathing. I felt that I needed special powers, since ordinary ones seemed of little use in life unless conjoined by some chance with special opportunities. So once, in the midday, when I had the shop to myself, I went into the backroom (which has been newly acquired and contained a chair) and sat down to practise the breathing exercises prescribed. I did it for about forty minutes. At that point I heard somebody come into the shop. I rose from the chair and walked to the front room without feeling the floor I walked on or any sense of my own weight. My employer entered and asked for a pair of scissors, which I found and handed to him without any feeling of the article or sense of its weight. I must have looked peculiar in some way, for I remember he stared at me very hard and with a surprised expression. The incident passed off. Gradually my sense of touch and weight returned. I did not perform the experiment again, as I considered it to be dangerous." In the present day world when there is so much interest in developing special powers, I am interested to hear if any one have had and heard some what similar experience. MK Ramadoss From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 1 05:01:45 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:01:45 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960701010142_344917635@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions >Jerry S. writes> >Richard, I don't disagree with anything you have said, but >I do have a question. What happens when "improving Self-awareness" >results in the awareness that "psychic, magical, etc. abilites" are inherent >within our higher Self? What if "Self-awareness" and "abilites" are >the same thing? I understand, of course, that there is a difference >between awareness and use. Should we, perhaps, ignore the connection, >once made, as Eldon suggests? Richard Ihle writes> Jerry, if you ever find yourself disagreeing with anything I say, go ahead and disagree, for I will probably be saying the opposite thing the next day anyway. Since it is not yet midnight in Madison on the same day of my original post, I better not disagree with myself quite yet, however. When I use ~Self~, I normally mean "Undifferentiated Consciousness," which, of course, can only have attributes or "abilities" when it is associated ("contaminated") by something on the ~Prakriti~ "side" of things (which includes everything from Buddhi or "Spirit" down to energy-matter). It is doubtful, however, that Self is a meaningful human concept when it is used in such a strict sense; the penultimate Self-Spirit (~Atma-Buddhi~) is probably the only thing that is within experiential range for even the best of meditators, and I am guessing that this is what you are referring to as "Higher Self." Now you suggest a very interesting thing--viz., that when Buddhi-manas consciousness is used as the "upadhi" for Atma-Buddhi, certain psychic, magical, or other "paranormal" attributes which "are inherent" in the latter can be carried into and manifest themselves in the former. If this is the case, it would definitely involve a higher or "truer" type of psychism or magical operation than most of the psychics and magicians of my acquaintance seem to be in command of. If I discovered that had either of these authentic developments, I would certainly not follow Eldon's advice--not, at least, until the developments told me (or let me tell) where T-bonds would be closing on enough future days so that I could make a huge dent in the Chicago Board of Trade. . . . Well, it is now 11:55 P.M. In six minutes I will be able to reverse myself and say that I would, like Eldon, "ignore the connection" or perhaps only use any powers which come from the Higher Self in the service of higher things. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 05:45:23 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:45:23 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701014522_344945217@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Down and dirty Alex, There may also be the fact that Europe managed to kill off its best breeding stock in its interminable wars. Europe is a museum, nice for the tourists, but of little value otherwise. Now, if you are a European, you have to deal with the burden of a great past and a hell of a dismal future on a continent with few natural resources left and even fewer intellectual ones as all the smart people left for America ages ago. I remember when I was in college back in the sixties and European intellectual was defined as an oxymoron, and a French intellectual as an impossibility. (Squawk! Squawk! Marx and Freud! Marx and Freud! Polly want a cracker! Squawk!) Of course they resent us. They have reason to. Chuck the Heretic From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 07:02:01 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:02:01 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701070201.006c8528@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Martin vs. Process Theosophists At 06:40 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: > Even having missed many of your private postings, I have >seen enough on theos-l to know where you are coming from. Also, >JRC and Paul have added their perspectives. I don't understand >what Martin's or Dan's problem is. Richard I. says that he falls >somewhere in between the two (he is, BTW, Mr. Theosopher). I >may be in there somewhere too, because I like the "core teachings." >But I do prefer to take them eclectically rather than swallowed whole. Eclectically, they're fine,as speculative hypothesis they're fine, but when they become "reveal truth" they are NOT fine! To me "revealed truth" is now, always has been, and always will be, one of the major sources of oppression and abuse in this world. > > This was certainly true awhile back. I think most of the "core >doctrine" folks have abandoned ship by now. This is unfortunate, but >inevitable. There is a sense of security in having a core doctrine, and >in thinking that one is looking at the moon instead of just a pointing >finger. It is comforting to share the same ideas with others--this is >the cement that holds churches together. Theos-l is no longer a secure >or comfortable place for those who take the core teachings as gospel. >They really only have three options: (1) discuss or debate, (2) change >their own worldview, or (3) leave. After attempting the first option for >awhile, most opt for the third which is far easier than the second. >But their own experiences, sooner or later, will bring them to question >one or more of the core teachings, and personal experience is much >stronger than our postings here can ever be. We can quit theos-l >but we cannot run away from our experiences, at least not when they >are "numinous" in the Jungian sense. > > Jerry S. > Member, TI > >Jerry that is unfortunately all too true, on the other hand, in The TSA, the Adyar Society in general, and probably other groups as well "process theosophists" have "cut and run". The message in places like the American Theosophist is all to clear, either one accepts "Core Theosophy" as revealed truth or "go somewhere else". 5,000 members (TSA) are being manipulated, oppressed and abused by the 200 members of the E.S. It is my own belief that it is far more likely that the process theosophists I am coming to know (you, JRC, Chuck, and though he has not openly "come out" perhaps even Alan) are all people who are far more likely to have had numinous experiences than the "Core Theosophist". In addition: I am made to be very nervous by people who hint around that they possess the "Buddhic faculty". I am made even more nervous, in fact exponentially so, by people who speak of "duties" and "Missions". alexis dolgorukii > From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 07:08:16 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:08:16 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701070816.006dc190@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Bee At 07:28 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >And the British Parliament (duck, here comes Alan) can be almost as raucous. > Every year C-Span covers the opening ceremonies and I love the moment when >they ceremonially slam the door in the Queen's face and they have to pound on >it to get Parliament to open up again. >Of course, if you listen to her speech then, you realize why they don't want >to let her in. The poor dear is as boring as Radha. > >Chuck the Heretic > >No there's a difference, Radha I believe writes her own speeches and is therefore entirely responsible for thie soporific qualities. HRM simply reads what is written for her by some one in the Prime Ministers PR Office, therefore it is her job to be soporific. I think it would be difficult to get enthusiastic over words one not only didn't write, but with which one might not agree at all. After all, the speech to open parliament sort of lays out the ruling party's programme for the year. I think she's kind of a saint for doing it, I know I wouldn't! alex From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 07:18:17 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:18:17 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701071817.006dd2b8@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Process Theosophists? A Comment to Martin At 09:02 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19960630071751.0067a224@pop.slip.net>, alexis >dolgorukii writes >>"Process theosophy" is certainly >>nothing I "invented", > >I'll try again - surely *all* theosophy is "process theosophy" - ?? >Seems to me that a term has been invented here (like "politically >correct) in order to argue cases which need no argument ... ? > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: >Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html > >Well now, if the case needs no arguing, why is there so much Brouhaha? Additionaly, I am not at all sure that "all theosophy is process theosophy" because I don't think that "Theosophy as Revealed Truth cum Dogma" is a process. "Process theosophy is a process of self-transformation, "Core Doctrine" is primarily "take it or leave it". I think there may be said to be a considerable difference. alexei From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 07:39:34 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:39:34 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701073934.006d5058@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Just dirty At 09:39 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >Maybe there was also a degreedy of "Go West, young man, and steal >someone else's land." The Europeans had been doing this for centuries >before the US of A got into their sights! All those Spaniards swarming >over South America and populating the continent with a whole new breed >of catholics. The Vikings did it to us even earlier ..... Alan: Question: How do you "steal someone else's land" when the only people on the land had absolutely no conception of land ownership. The rush of immigration to the "new world" was not a bunch of greedy governments, it was an enormous mass of people who wanted to go somewhere else than they were. The Jews and others came to America for religious freedom, and got it, The poor and landless came because they could become other than poor and landless. There is absolutely no comparison between the Conquistadors, who were the representatives of the spanish State, and the masses of poor Europeans who populated North America. We got all those highland Scots and Irish because england sent them here. We got huge numbers of people due to "enclosure", we got masses of people due to the European revolutions of the 1840's and 50's, whenever there was a famine or a program the masses swelled. We don't have class warfare in America because we don't have classes, just financial differences. If a person has never seen films of Ellis Island (where immigrants were processed) one has no idea of what America really is. And they all found a home here and created the mongrel citizenry that is so typically American. If one doesn't see that aspect of America, one doesn't see America at all. In regard to your comment re. the "Vikings", "The Invaders Of The British Isles" which included Kelts, Romans, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Danes, and Norsemen and then their brethren the Normans, why pick on the poor "Vikings"? In any case "Viking" is a verb not a noun. > >Britain did a better job on Canada of course, which it managed to keep, >only there was some trouble with the French, which is still going on. It's not "some trouble with the French" it is a horrendous mess. I assure you of this, in the next 10 years or so both Canada and australia will leave the commonwealth and become totally independent states. Australia came very close to so doing just this year. I would also be very suprised if the five western provinces of Canada don't end up as States in the U.S.A. > >As for Ireland, well there again we may have George III to thank >(THANK??) for the inheritance of violence there. Don't forget religion Alan. It's Protestantism that has caused the problem. None of this would have happened if England had stayed Catholic. Irish nationalism is a combination of nationalism and catholicism and that's what makes it impossible to cure. > >In short, I suspect your analysis is incomplete. > >Alan :-) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: >Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html > In this case alan, I suspect your wearing "blinders". alexis> From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 08:07:18 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:07:18 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701080718.006caba0@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Coue At 10:07 PM 6/30/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Hold down the ALT key and, at the same time press the numbers 130 on the >number pad (not the top row) then let go of ALT. It is unlikely to >arrive at the other end of an e-mail though. Michael made me a whole directory of those things, never seems to work though. But I've been using the number row rather than the key pad. So I'll give it a try. what's the difference actually? >> > >Who's bragging? You seemed to imply that Brit theosophists were >recruited from "middle" or "upper middle class" people. I would not >have mentioned the matter at all if you had not raised it in the first >place. I did not "imply" I said right out that in the early days of theosophy all of the theosophists, and particularly those in the British section were clearly from the "Upper-Middle" and "middle" classes. That is true is it not? I did not say it was true today, though I suspect it is still largely true. Perhaps in England a man with the number of higher degrees you possess would still be marked by his birth class, but not in any rational country. Also, I have never heard of even "irregular Bishops" being considered members of the lower class. > > >But it isn't. This is an anachronism. The "class war" notions have >been dead for decades. Alan: That's just not true. I introduced Michael Freestone to a friend of mine from Manchester who is a PHD in quantum theory, and a College p Professor, and the minute he heard that Michael had graduated from Westminster he turned on him. Told me he hated the "Upper-classes". Now that was only a couple of years ago. I don't think it's nearly as dead as you'd like to pretend it is. What proves it most clearly to me is your hypersensitivity to the entire subject. > >> Marx probably got his >>notions because he lived in England (and of course, both Marx and Engles had >>no contact with the lower classes other than to hand them their hats and >>coats). Alan, when you have spent as much time "in the streets" and "on the >>barricades" as I have, actively working for the betterment of the lower >>classes and other disenfranchised folks, then, and only then, will you be >>eligible to engage in subtle little digs. I still love you dearly, and >>respect you greatly, but I think you really need to "get over it". > >And how do you know I have not done these things? In my younger days I >was very active in anarchist and socialist circles in London. I believe >my name is still on an MI5 list somewhere. I am not making subtle >little digs, just trying to adjust the record without making a fuss. >Please do not talk down to me - I am not a Russian serf, and I love you >dearly too. You know how I know? Because in the last 60 years there has been no real "in the streets" action in England. I am talking about the Civil Rights activity in the south where one could easily get killed and where many did. The English anarch o-socialists have no record to equal it. I think I am one of the few people who is on both the FBI"s shit list and the KGB's shitlist for totally different reasons. Why would you say "I am not a Russian Serf"? I've never even seen a "Russian Serf", and I never will either Because they were freed by my Great Grandmother's half brother, Alexander III. I was neither patronizing you or "talking down to you". Nor would I. But you must begin to understand that Americans tend to be hyper-sensitive to what they perceive as British snobbery. Don't forget that snob stands for "sine nobilitas". >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: >Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html > Now, I've gotten it off my chest, and you've gotten it off yours. Let's go back to being good friend shall we? alexei From uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Mon Jul 1 15:30:41 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:30:41 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Message-Id: <199607011531.AA23788@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: The Useful Tourist/Pilgrim Model The Tourist/Pilgrim Model A recent discussion on theos-l was based upon the idea, coming from Joy Mills, that visitors to theosophical groups could be considered as either tourists or pilgrims. This idea was immediately blasted, unfairly so, I think, since it was critisized for saying things that it clearly did not say. (It would be far more productive, as we discuss analogies such as the tourist and the pilgrim, if we see where they are useful and derive value from them. This is much better than using them as a pretext to vent anger over unrelated issues, such as how the Adyar Theosophical Society is run and how some views seem to be shut out of a fair hearing within it, or how rotten a person someone may think that Joy Mills is.) The tourist/pilgrim idea provides a useful model, and can be helpful in deciding how to deal with people coming to Theosophy. It describes something we see as happening all about us in life. At the most basic interpretation, we have two levels of interest, two levels of committment. Someone is curious, window-shopping, casually interested, and wanders in off the street. They're either not looking for something, or are not sure what they want. Or someone may be seriously searching for something, and ready to put their money on the line. Any retail establishment can distinguish between the two types of customers. And the same can be true of membership organizations too. Even people offering professional services can tell between someone looking for their services and someone with an idle curiosity. Why any difference with the Esoteric Philosophy? Note that this is *not* saying that there are two levels of people, one the "choosen" and upper class, and the other, the "outsider" or inferior class. We're talking about levels of interest, not how advanced a person is. We can expand upon the tourist and pilgrim analogy a bit, taking it to a deeper, more philosophical level of meaning. A tourist is someone visiting a distant land, perhaps, for personal enrichment, for escape from the routine of life, for enjoyment. The whole experience, though, is centered in the personality, is based on the notion of "enjoyment for *me*". A pilgrim, though, is someone motivated out of deeply-felt religosity, someone touched by the Path, someone motivated out of transcendence, self-sacrifice, and the call to serve others. Some may feel anger and resentment at the tourist/pilgrim analogy, but this is not the fault of the analogy itself, which is highly useful in describing things that actually happen in life. The resentment may be against anything that seems to put Theosophists into two classes, with those that don't believe in the philosophy considered tourists and made to seem somehow inferior. But there's no judgement, nor rating of individuals involved! It's always been simply "Here's some fragments of the Wisdom Religion, take what may benefit you, with the only obligation being to share it with others, as you may, in its pristine form." There's no "I'm better that you are because I believe in the *true stuff* and you don't!" There are many approaches to getting people engaged on the Path, which is the true *process*. Each such way has an associated *content*, and the content and process are inseparable. The theosophical approach involves the Mystery Doctrines. There are many other approaches that each provide their own structure, beliefs, and knowledge that their respective students study. The important thing is in bringing people to the Path, starting with oneself. Without getting serious about it in one's own life, one is only a promoter of the theories and ideas of others, or a weaver of fanciful tales. It's not important if someone approaches the Path through the approach or approaches offered through the Theosophical Movement. One could approach it from a thousand different ways. The important thing is *doing it*, not denying there is such a thing nor claiming it is such a difficult thing to do that it would be the height of arrogance to even consider it. The Path is a real and important part of life, and is awaiting all of us, in due time, if only we'd grow towards and approach it. It is, in the longer run, the next step forward in human evolution. (And it symbolizes all future such forward steps.) We each must decide for ourselves if we'll be pioneers, if we're ready to be Pilgrims and visit uncharted terrorities in life, or if we'll simply go with the mob, and enjoy the status quo of external life. We can approach the *real work* from two directions. Approaching *from with*, we are doing inner work, dealing with our states of consciousness and *content*. Approaching *from without*, we are doing external work, dealing with activites in the world for the betterment of others. Both within and without are important, both process and content, and the process is not really engaged until both are going equally strong. Let's get to the real work at hand, which is awakening both ourselves and others to this inner reality. As to the angry rhethoric and bitter words, we'll have to take turns taking out the garbage... -- Eldon From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 1 16:09:54 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:09:54 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960701120951_425328171@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Down and dirty >Alan writes> >Most of the subscribers to the theos-lists seem to be Americans - may I >ask them, politely of course :-) if they agree with your assessment >below (Alex excepted, as we already know he does). >>Chuck writes>> >>We sort of think it is. When you have a society like ours which has as its >>fundamental operating priniciple that everyone is on an equal footing, it is >>very difficult to dance around things, so we just say what is on our minds >>and let the bombs fall where they may. It helps us live longer, and we don't >>get ulcers. Richard Ihle writes> Alan, you must keep in mind that Chuck has already described himself as having the same orientation as the "licentious" branch of Gnosticism. Thus, one could regard his stated policy of simply going around saying what he wishes and "letting the bombs fall as they may" as just another technique for the elimination of all Self-awareness in a single lifetime. Indeed, it could well be that the potential for reincarnation does not open up until the transition point in animal-human material evolution where the Self becomes sufficiently aware of itself to allow for an ego-formation to stabilize in ~kama-manas~ ("desire-mental") consciousness. What this means is that the instant-gratification characteristic of kama (desire-feeling) consciousness is supplanted by a new stratagem: either holding the desire of the moment in abeyance for the sake of a greater future desire, or simply not indulging the desire because of consideration for the consequences. If the purpose of the abstemious branch of the Gnostics was to eventually leave the Reincarnating Stream by gradually killing out desire, perhaps the purpose of the licentious branch was also to leave--but only faster, by means of smothering the consequences of one egoic indulgence with a stronger egoic indulgence whose consequences were smothered by even a stronger indulgence etc. Sex, alcohol, and drugs would undoubtedly sooner or later be very useful in this regard. The overall idea may have been that in order to come back for another lifetime it would be necessary that there be some remaining Self-awareness in association with a desire-related state of differentiated consciousness. If one died in perfect Self-awareness uncontaminated by any kind of desire-mental egoic delusion, there would be no "mechanism" to pull him or her back for another lifetime; similarly, if one died with no Self-awareness whatever because of sustained practice of indulging every animating, physical, or desire-feeling impulse, one would not come back. Now, a person who just goes around saying what he or she wants to irrespective of the consequences would not be operating from a desire-mental ego-formation. He or she would simply be using his or her mental apparatus in the service of something lower. For example, as tools of a simple physical ego-formation, words and ideas would be used--in a wanton, mindless way--to try to establish dominance over, or even attack, someone else. Of course, dominance and aggression could just as easily be a component of a desire-mental ego-formation as well; however, the difference in the latter would be the use of mindfulness and strategy to accomplish the power-oriented ends. Thus, ~not~ letting the bombs, verbal or otherwise, drop merely in a random way may be the sign that someone has reached the "human threshold" of psychogenetic development. Simply saying and doing what one wants irrespective of any negative consequences--for oneself or others--is not necessarily the sign that someone has not yet reached that threshold; rather, it could be, as in the case of the "bad-branch" Gnostics, the sign that one is so dissatisfied with the human condition, that one wants to make sure that he or she won't have to come back to do it all over again in another lifetime. Can America itself be characterized by a general absence of mindful "dancing around things" as Chuck suggests? I don't really think so. I think I see a lot of Americans doing a lot of judicious dancing around--often just to get a longer term advantage for themselves, of course, but sometimes just because they are kind enough to take into account the impact of their words and deeds on others. Anyway, at least ~I hope~ that Chuck is not right, for that would mean that America either has not yet developed a manasic soul or has decided that it is not important enough to keep. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 16:09:59 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:09:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701120957_345251065@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Doss, Just because old Ernie Wood had the idea that something was dangerous did not mean that it was. It only meant his fears were working on him. someday you must read my books. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 16:12:10 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:12:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701121209_345251776@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions Rich, Are you by any chance familiar with the SRI experiment involving silver futures some years back? The details escape me but if I remember correctly Charles Tart and co. set up an experiment to psyhically predict the silver market and were successful, though I do not remember the degree of success that was involved. It is generally conceded by those who study such things that successful gamblers are psychic to one degree or another. It is not generally admitted, but psychics are used by corporations quite often these days to predict market behavior. I am in the process of setting up an experiment in controlling market behavior. Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 01:21:37 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:21:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: The pounding on the door In-Reply-To: <960630192413_344616843@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960630192413_344616843@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alex, >And the British Parliament (duck, here comes Alan) can be almost as raucous. > Every year C-Span covers the opening ceremonies and I love the moment when >they ceremonially slam the door in the Queen's face and they have to pound on >it to get Parliament to open up again. Of course - Britain is a democracy! (It says here). >Of course, if you listen to her speech then, you realize why they don't want >to let her in. The poor dear is as boring as Radha. It's not her fault - the government tell her what to say. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 1 16:46:38 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 12:46:38 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607011646.MAA02228@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: To Alan and Jacques Apologies for the use of names in the header, but it was the only thing that seemed to fit. Alan, you asked if all Americans are down and dirty, rude, aggressive etc. etc. as depicted by Alexis. I can assure you that if you ever visit Virginia (not including "Yankee Virginia", the suburbs of Washington, D.C.) you will find us paragons of courtliness. The most highly esteemed virtue here is gentility, civility, politesse, to give three synonyms. Race relations are the best in the nation, I suspect, and we are the only state to elect an African American governor. An interesting statistic to illustrate the generally lower level of aggressiveness is that we are #1 in the percentage of drivers who obey speed limits and use seatbelts. As a Brit you can also be assured that Virginians are the most likely of all Americans to fawn over anyone from the Mother Country. On rare trips north I have found myself shocked to the point of tears (not weeping, but feeling the potential arise) by the abrupt, aggressive rudeness of New Yorkers. (Of course, we do have our share of obnoxious rednecks like Jerry Falwell but most Virginians are mortified by such people.) Jacques, don't let yourself get sucked into a vortex of denunciation. For you to say that theos-l is generally hostile to theosophical teachings, doesn't deserve the name, and such is to descend to the very level you seem to deplore. Edgar Cayce says "Criticize others and you will be criticized yourself" (paraphrase). The best policy, if you wish to elevate the level of discourse around here, is to POST A MESSAGE THAT YOU THINK EXEMPLIFIES THE KIND OF DISCOURSE YOU WANT TO SEE. There is a tremendous amount of denunciation that goes on here, but there is also room for communications at another level. Welcome aboard, and here's an invitation: Share something of your ideals and ideas with us. I promise to respect them; if someone else doesn't-- ignore it. Namaste Paul From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 1 17:14:07 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:14:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960701120957_345251065@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > Just because old Ernie Wood had the idea that something was dangerous did not > mean that it was. It only meant his fears were working on him. > someday you must read my books. > > Chuck the Heretic > Chuck: The intent of the post was to find out if anyone had similar experience. His fears is a very minor side issue as far as I am concerned. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 1 17:17:56 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:17:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: To Alan and Jacques In-Reply-To: <199607011646.MAA02228@leo.vsla.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Paul: I enjoyed your message. I hope the readers will feel more comfortable to know that they are welcome to post any of their thoughts opinions and experience and many of us will respect them no matter what they are. Ramadoss On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Apologies for the use of names in the header, but it was the > only thing that seemed to fit. > > Alan, you asked if all Americans are down and dirty, rude, > aggressive etc. etc. as depicted by Alexis. I can assure you > that if you ever visit Virginia (not including "Yankee > Virginia", the suburbs of Washington, D.C.) you will find us > paragons of courtliness. The most highly esteemed virtue here > is gentility, civility, politesse, to give three synonyms. > Race relations are the best in the nation, I suspect, > and we are the only state to elect an African American > governor. An interesting statistic to illustrate the generally > lower level of aggressiveness is that we are #1 in the > percentage of drivers who obey speed limits and use seatbelts. > As a Brit you can also be assured that Virginians are the most > likely of all Americans to fawn over anyone from the Mother > Country. On rare trips north I have found myself shocked to the > point of tears (not weeping, but feeling the potential arise) by the abrupt, > aggressive rudeness of New Yorkers. > > (Of course, we do have our share of obnoxious rednecks like > Jerry Falwell but most Virginians are mortified by such people.) > > Jacques, don't let yourself get sucked into a vortex of > denunciation. For you to say that theos-l is generally hostile > to theosophical teachings, doesn't deserve the name, and such > is to descend to the very level you seem to deplore. Edgar > Cayce says "Criticize others and you will be criticized > yourself" (paraphrase). The best policy, if you wish to > elevate the level of discourse around here, is to POST A > MESSAGE THAT YOU THINK EXEMPLIFIES THE KIND OF DISCOURSE YOU > WANT TO SEE. There is a tremendous amount of denunciation that > goes on here, but there is also room for communications at > another level. Welcome aboard, and here's an invitation: Share > something of your ideals and ideas with us. I promise to > respect them; if someone else doesn't-- ignore it. > > Namaste > Paul > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 1 18:12:10 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:12:10 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960701141203_345371462@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions >Chuck writes> >Rich[ard], >Are you by any chance familiar with the SRI experiment involving silver >futures some years back? >The details escape me but if I remember correctly Charles Tart and co. set up >an experiment to psyhically predict the silver market and were successful, >though I do not remember the degree of success that was involved. >It is generally conceded by those who study such things that successful >gamblers are psychic to one degree or another. >It is not generally admitted, but psychics are used by corporations quite >often these days to predict market behavior. >I am in the process of setting up an experiment in controlling market >behavior. > >Chuck the Heretic Richard Ihle writes> The name Charles Tart sounds ~very~ familiar. Is he British by chance? I remember talking to someone originally from England one time who was trying to sell a silver system; however, it was not based on psychism. I traded silver for several years until the market more or less went dead; then I switched to the bonds. Now, my son handles the account for us, and he is about the last person in the world who would make a trade without having a ream of recondite math equations to back himself up. --On the other hand, if your experiment comes up with something (T-bonds, Deutschemarks, Yen, silver, or soy beans) let me know and I might do an end-run around the lad to Lind-Waldock on my own--cutting you in for a percentage, of course. Godspeed, Richard Ihle From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 19:02:47 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:02:47 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701190247.006d931c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: The Useful Tourist/Pilgrim Model At 11:36 AM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: > > > >The tourist/pilgrim idea provides a useful model, and can be >helpful in deciding how to deal with people coming to Theosophy. >It describes something we see as happening all about us in life. Eldon: In this you are completely wrong. The "tourist/pilgrim model" is not simply wrong-headed it is entirely counter-productive. It is also, as JRC so clearly indicated arrogant and exclusive. Who has a right to decide who is a "pilgrim" and who is a "tourist".People, like theosophists/Theosophists who THINK they have something of value to offer, something that will make peoples lives better, have a self-selected obligation to share that thing with ANYONE who expresses interest. It is not a matter of real importance if the person they expose to their "thing" find's it of great interest or not. It is truly a conceit to assume that because an individual does NOT become dedicated to theosophy/Theosophy it means they are a "tourist" and not a "Pilgrim". It probably simply means that the product offered was not to their taste. Thee very terms used are "loaded for bear". "Pilgrim" is a word with primarily religious connotation. However the record of America's Pilgrims has added a social connotation. Neither of these connotations is positive in my view. > >Any retail establishment can distinguish between the two types of >customers. And the same can be true of membership organizations >too. Even people offering professional services can tell between >someone looking for their services and someone with an idle >curiosity. Why any difference with the Esoteric Philosophy? Well Eldon, the answer to your question is quite simple. It is because there is a qualitative difference between "Esoteric Philosophy" and shoes! It's very easy for a shopkeeper to tell if a person in their store is a "buyer" or a "looker", but this is anything but true in presenting various esoteric theories to strangers. With shoes a person can make an immediate decision. "Buy or not buy" but with Philosophy (esoteric or otherwise) that's not at all the case. With "Esoteric Philosophy" in particular it is entirely hubristic to assume just how far simple curiosity will take someone. A philosophy, and especially an "Esoteric Philosophy" must not be a store, but rather a free buffet open to all who are even a little bit hungry. > >Note that this is *not* saying that there are two levels of >people, one the "choosen" and upper class, and the other, the >"outsider" or inferior class. We're talking about levels of >interest, not how advanced a person is. Eldon: That is both self-contradictory and disingenuous. That is exactly what "Pilgrim" (good) and "Tourist" (bad) does and your apologium doesn't change it even an infinitesimal fraction. > >We can expand upon the tourist and pilgrim analogy a bit, taking >it to a deeper, more philosophical level of meaning. > >A tourist is someone visiting a distant land, perhaps, for >personal enrichment, for escape from the routine of life, for >enjoyment. The whole experience, though, is centered in the >personality, is based on the notion of "enjoyment for *me*". > >A pilgrim, though, is someone motivated out of deeply-felt >religosity, someone touched by the Path, someone motivated out of >transcendence, self-sacrifice, and the call to serve others. And those three paragraphs prove my point! It was written by a man who obviously considers himself a very advanced level of Pilgrim indeed, and displays nothing but contempt for those he considers to be "tourists". Whenever anyone uses a phrase like "a deeper, more philosophical level of meaning" (as you did and as you generally do), it means to say that the writer is speaking from that clearly more advanced and desirable space. It is impossible to know much about people we meet(unless we can see Auras, and far more importantly, understand their meaning) and so, when we are teaching something as slow to be appreciated as anything esoteric is, we must view each inquirer as a possible "bright light". Theosophy is, as it is presently incarnated and exclusive, and very conceited philosophy indeed. > >Some may feel anger and resentment at the tourist/pilgrim >analogy, but this is not the fault of the analogy itself, which >is highly useful in describing things that actually happen in >life. The resentment may be against anything that seems to put >Theosophists into two classes, with those that don't believe in >the philosophy considered tourists and made to seem somehow >inferior. The "Tourist-Pilgrim analogy" is, while not the disease afflicting theosophy itself, nonetheless, an egregious symptom of that disease! Eldon, you use the expression "those who don't believe in the philosophy" and that perception is also symptomatic of the disease. A "Philosophy" of any kind, is speculative and hypothetical, one CONSIDERS it. One "believes" in a religion, and that is a vitally important difference. It is here that the so-called "Core doctrinal Theosophists" (i.e. those who view some people as mere tourists)make their major error. they believe, religiously, in what is , and what never was intended to be more than, a speculative hypothesis. That leads them to assumptions of spiritual status that are entirely untrue. > >But there's no judgement, nor rating of individuals involved! It's >always been simply "Here's some fragments of the Wisdom Religion, >take what may benefit you, with the only obligation being to share >it with others, as you may, in its pristine form." There's no "I'm >better that you are because I believe in the *true stuff* and you >don't!" Eldon, I doubt very highly if you believe that yourself. It's totally untrue, because: "I'm better than you are because I believe in the "true stuff" and you don't" is exactly the attitude that "Core Doctrine theosophists" display to others, and nowhere is it better displayed than in the "Pilgrims and Tourists" analogy. >There are many approaches to getting people engaged on the Path, >which is the true *process*. Each such way has an associated >*content*, and the content and process are inseparable. The >theosophical approach involves the Mystery Doctrines. There are >many other approaches that each provide their own structure, >beliefs, and knowledge that their respective students study. In this at least, Krishnamurti (The Pathless Land) was completely correct. There is absolutely no such thing as "THE Path", there are almost six billion people on this planet, and many other sentiencies as well and for each one of them there is "A path" and that may very well mean that there are more than six billion paths. People study what interests and attracts them, but they clear their own path while doing so. Every single sentient being is BORN on their own private path, they may not know it, but they are, and every experience in their life throws more light on that path. > >The important thing is in bringing people to the Path, starting >with oneself. Without getting serious about it in one's own life, >one is only a promoter of the theories and ideas of others, or a >weaver of fanciful tales. Eldon: Anyone who thinks they have a "mission" or a "duty" especially one for which they assume others are "waiting" is a "weaver of fanciful tales". > >It's not important if someone approaches the Path through the >approach or approaches offered through the Theosophical Movement. >One could approach it from a thousand different ways. The >important thing is *doing it*, not denying there is such a thing >nor claiming it is such a difficult thing to do that it would be >the height of arrogance to even consider it. > >The Path is a real and important part of life, and is awaiting all >of us, in due time, if only we'd grow towards and approach it. It >is, in the longer run, the next step forward in human evolution. >(And it symbolizes all future such forward steps.) Eldon, belief that one has a path that is superior to that of others, and it's extremely clear that you do, is simply an ego-trip. > >We each must decide for ourselves if we'll be pioneers, if we're >ready to be Pilgrims and visit uncharted terrorities in life, or >if we'll simply go with the mob, and enjoy the status quo of >external life. Now, if that is not an entirely judgmental, and arrogantly so, comment I don't know what is. > >We can approach the *real work* from two directions. Approaching >*from with*, we are doing inner work, dealing with our states of >consciousness and *content*. Approaching *from without*, we are >doing external work, dealing with activites in the world for the >betterment of others. Both within and without are important, both >process and content, and the process is not really engaged until >both are going equally strong. > >Let's get to the real work at hand, which is awakening both >ourselves and others to this inner reality. As to the angry >rhethoric and bitter words, we'll have to take turns taking out >the garbage... Eldon, you just keep proving my point. Is it possible that you don't realize how smug, self-satisfied, and monstrously self-righteous those two paragraphs are? This is not a "bash" or even a "flame" just a statement of serious, and in fact total, disagreement. > >-- Eldon > > alexis dolgorukii> From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 19:05:00 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:05:00 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701190500.006c0ae4@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions At 12:15 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >Rich, >Are you by any chance familiar with the SRI experiment involving silver >futures some years back? >The details escape me but if I remember correctly Charles Tart and co. set up >an experiment to psyhically predict the silver market and were successful, >though I do not remember the degree of success that was involved. >It is generally conceded by those who study such things that successful >gamblers are psychic to one degree or another. >It is not generally admitted, but psychics are used by corporations quite >often these days to predict market behavior. >I am in the process of setting up an experiment in controlling market >behavior. > >Chuck the Heretic > >I want a share...I want a share..O.K. Uncle Chuckie? alex From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Mon Jul 1 16:16:35 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:13:35 -3 From: Subject: Re: Unveiled Isis (Jesus&Christ) Message-Id: <185856687@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Hello Jerry Ekins >HPB at book iii (start page 116, final page 145) page 141 says: >gnostic philosophy, understand it by another way> Sorry, I forget to give the chapter. It is chapter III. Maybe I understand in wrong way Blavastky's view. I understand that Blavastky believe that CATHOLICS think that Christ is only another name to Jesus. Did I understand correctly what HPB wanted to say? It's clear to me that HPB, as you stated, "was well aware of the differences between "Jesus" and "Christ."". So, I reproduce some passages from Catechism that states that catholics doesn't understand Jesus and Christ as the same meaning. Abrantes From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 1 19:24:55 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:24:55 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960701192455.006d282c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: To Alan and Jacques At 01:21 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: To Paul, Ramadoss et al: You know chuck must be getting very annoyed at me getting credited with his observations. Alan asked in his posting not if people agreed with me, but if they agreed with Chuck (he went on to say it was a given that I did). Now chuck and I essentially agree on our picture of American history and the American National Character, our views only differ in emphasis. Anyone who is not a poseur, (any american that is) knows that over the entire scope of American History the political dialog has been what can only be described as "down and dirty", now Alan can hardly be expected to know that, nor really can doss, but all one has to do is read some of the charges leveled at Tom Jefferson by John Adams and visa versa, to see how really ugly american political diatribes can get, this is even more true in the election that sent Andrew Jackson to the White House. One needn't go back to former times, one need only pay attention to the rhetoric in our current election campaign to see just how "down and dirty" american dialectic can be. Paul's discussion of "Virginian Courtliness" is pure myth. The Virginia countryside is chock a block with Red Necks, and crosses get burned in Virginia quite as frequently as they do in North Carolina. I was born in the South and "gentility, civility, and politesse" is simply a cover-up for hypocrisy. Luckily he lost, but the immense amount of support Oliver North received says more about the folks in Virginia than most anything I can think of. As a matter of fact the political successes of people like Pat Buchanan and Oliver North and Ross Peyote go further towards proving chuck's point than anything I can think of. alexis >Paul: I enjoyed your message. I hope the readers will feel more >comfortable to know that they are welcome to post any of their thoughts >opinions and experience and many of us will respect them no matter what >they are. > > Ramadoss > > >On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > >> Apologies for the use of names in the header, but it was the >> only thing that seemed to fit. >> >> Alan, you asked if all Americans are down and dirty, rude, >> aggressive etc. etc. as depicted by Alexis. I can assure you >> that if you ever visit Virginia (not including "Yankee >> Virginia", the suburbs of Washington, D.C.) you will find us >> paragons of courtliness. The most highly esteemed virtue here >> is gentility, civility, politesse, to give three synonyms. >> Race relations are the best in the nation, I suspect, >> and we are the only state to elect an African American >> governor. An interesting statistic to illustrate the generally >> lower level of aggressiveness is that we are #1 in the >> percentage of drivers who obey speed limits and use seatbelts. >> As a Brit you can also be assured that Virginians are the most >> likely of all Americans to fawn over anyone from the Mother >> Country. On rare trips north I have found myself shocked to the >> point of tears (not weeping, but feeling the potential arise) by the abrupt, >> aggressive rudeness of New Yorkers. >> >> (Of course, we do have our share of obnoxious rednecks like >> Jerry Falwell but most Virginians are mortified by such people.) >> >> Jacques, don't let yourself get sucked into a vortex of >> denunciation. For you to say that theos-l is generally hostile >> to theosophical teachings, doesn't deserve the name, and such >> is to descend to the very level you seem to deplore. Edgar >> Cayce says "Criticize others and you will be criticized >> yourself" (paraphrase). The best policy, if you wish to >> elevate the level of discourse around here, is to POST A >> MESSAGE THAT YOU THINK EXEMPLIFIES THE KIND OF DISCOURSE YOU >> WANT TO SEE. There is a tremendous amount of denunciation that >> goes on here, but there is also room for communications at >> another level. Welcome aboard, and here's an invitation: Share >> something of your ideals and ideas with us. I promise to >> respect them; if someone else doesn't-- ignore it. >> >> Namaste >> Paul >> > >_______________________________________________________ > Peace to all living beings. > > M K Ramadoss > > > > > From uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Mon Jul 1 20:05:15 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 16:05:15 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Message-Id: <199607012006.AA17550@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Tourists and Pilgrims (Reply to Alexis) Tourists and Pilgrims (Reply to Alexis) Alexis: I think we have a basic disagreement over the purpose of the spiritual in the world. I see it as leading everyone, over time, to the Path, to inner transformations that raise them above the everyday life of the mundane world. I see our duty, as students of the spiritual, to work on ourselves and to share whatever we've been fortunate enought to have enter into our lives. I'm not sure why you think that I consider myself so advanced, nor why you read contempt into my words. Perhaps I'll need to write more skillfully in the future, because I'm neither feeling nor intending to communicate such feelings. I'm also for sharing with everyone, to the extent that their interest allows. I'm not for labelling someone as "ok" or "not ok" and then using that to decide if they're entited to benefit from Theosophy. There's no "disease" associated with the theosophical doctrines -- rather the reverse. I find a connection through them with healing, uplifting, informing, and nourishing processes within. Perhaps you may find yourself sickened by the words and exoteric ideas used to convey the doctrines? If so, it could be that your reaction is to dirty wine bottles, not realizing the special vintage held within? I don't understand how you would think that anyone with even a slight benefit from the spiritual wouldn't feel obligated to share it somehow? This wanting to share is both a mission and a duty and only grows stronger over time, and it not a sign of disease or sickness, nor proof that one is deluded. No. It's a natural result of filling one's life with spiritual contents and the natural desire to share that arises therefrom. Your evaluation of my message leaves me puzzled. I make no exclusive claim to the theosophical doctrines, and I speak of thousands of approaches to the Path. I mention that the highest responsibility that each of us faces is to tred the Path and to share what treasures we find with others. How is that smug, self-satisfied, and monstrously self-righteous? -- Eldon From uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Mon Jul 1 20:06:02 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 16:06:02 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Message-Id: <199607012006.AA17577@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Group Prejudice Group Prejudice Sometimes we hear that it's wrong to say that people belong to a particular group tend to be a certain way. This would be like saying that people in a certain ethnic/cultural group (subrace) have or participate in certain attributes and experiences that are particular group. We're told that it's wrong to describe groups and their characteristics because particular individuals in a group have the freedom to differ. We're expected, therefore, to pretend the groups don't exist and deny anything we know of the groups, because at the individual level there are exceptions and the ability to differ. (Say, for example, people that participate in the lifestyle of an Eskimo participate in the influence and psychic environment of a particular collective awareness that might be called the "Eskimo subrace".) On the other hand, we're told that groups are very real and that our behavior, expecially if offensive, is not only explainable but perfectly justified because of our group membership. Someone might state that "It's just fine that I'm aggressive and even offensive, since I'm American, and that's how American's are!" Is there a paradox here? I'd say that whatever we do, it's an individual choice, with individual responsibility, but that it would be judged as good or bad in the context of our particular culture. An Eskimo killing a wale for food might, for instance, be judged differenly than a Japanese fisherman. We have a definite and real influence upon us of the culture and groups that we participate in, but in the final analysis, as far as we're concerned, "the buck stops here", that responsibilty for our words and deeds lies at our own feet. -- Eldon From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 1 20:44:18 1996 Date: 01 Jul 96 16:44:18 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Reincarnation Message-Id: <960701204418_76400.1474_HHL38-2@CompuServe.COM> RI: >Indeed, it could well be that the potential for reincarnation does not open >up until the transition point in animal-human material evolution where the >Self becomes sufficiently aware of itself to allow for an ego-formation to >stabilize in ~kama-manas~ ("desire-mental") consciousness. Could be, but I suspect that the potential for reincarnation applies to all monads in manifestation. Every mineral, plant, and animal. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 1 20:44:15 1996 Date: 01 Jul 96 16:44:15 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960701204414_76400.1474_HHL38-1@CompuServe.COM> >In the present day world when there is so much interest in developing >special powers, I am interested to hear if any one have had and heard some >what similar experience. > >MK Ramadoss The well known "vase breathing" described by Evans-Wentz in Tibetan Yoga & Secret Doctrines works well, and when done in connection with Tantric release of Kundalini, will produce lots of similar sensations. However, it is very doubtful that anyone will develop this in the first 40 minutes of exercise. It takes years. Jerry S. Member, TI From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Mon Jul 1 21:49:38 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:49:38 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607012149.AA15129@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: hello everybody >Just joining this group, with enthousiam when looking to the >possibilities to exchange ideas and experiences. >Looking to the charter of the group : (quote) >"Theos-L has been a discussion list created not to divide, but >to unite the members within their own defined limits.. It is >expected that all list members try to respect other people's >differences and opinions" > >give some confidence, but looking at the 4 first bulletins I >received was very disappointing. There are so much agressivity >against theosophical teaching that it does not deserve to bear >this name. > >Jacques Jacques, Hang in there. There are plenty of us who like to seriously discuss theosophical teachings. You just have to find the threat of discussion that suits you and ignore the others. JHE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Mon Jul 1 21:50:37 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:50:37 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607012150.AA15202@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: improper touching Alan Bain writes regarding CWL: > But he should have been jailed. Nowadays, what's >called "improper touching" get's the "toucher" twenty years! Not only the "touching" that he had admitted to, but the fact that he tried to bind the children to secrecy concerning his "advising" and his "touching." CWL would not permit the children to discuss his "therapy" with their parents or doctor. This put the children into a terrible moral bind and created considerable guilt among them--as evidenced in the letters Alan has so far published. I recently had a discussion with a professor of abnormal psychology who tells me that this behavior of binding the children to secrecy is typical of child molesters. But let us for a moment give CWL the benefit of a doubt and accept his defense that his teachings were "occult." Putting yourself in CWL's place, what would be the proper ethical procedure for teaching occult sexual practices to under age children? And which occult sexual practices and instruction would be suitable for pubescent and pre-pubescent children? JHE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 1 23:23:17 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:23:17 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960701192315_568045657@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: hello everybody >Jerry H-E writes> >Hang in there. There are plenty of us who like to seriously >discuss theosophical teachings. You just have to find the threat >of discussion that suits you and ignore the others. Richard Ihle writes> Jacques, this is perhaps the truest thing ever written on theos-l. Just as a helpful hint, the Hierarchy of Threat would probably at the top involve Alexis, and at the bottom either Bee or Donna or Richard Taylor or Coherence or Rudy or . . . if they could be found and resuscitated. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 16:32:35 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:32:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Down and dirty In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , JRC writes >Alan ... re: Americans ... two funny quotes that don't sum up my thoughts >on the subject, but sort of sum up my attitude (-:) ... > >"Always remember, our ancestors were kicked out of some of the best >countries in Europe" (Bill Murray) > >"Mainstream American morals seem, inexplicably enough, to be directly >derived from 1930's British films" (Gore Vidal) > > Tee Hee, -JRC .. off in search of riposte quotes .... Tee Hee yourself Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Mon Jul 1 23:51:15 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:51:15 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607012351.AA19313@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: Unveiled Isis >Maybe I understand in wrong way Blavastky's view. I >understand that Blavastky believe that CATHOLICS think that >Christ is only another name to Jesus. Did I understand correctly >what HPB wanted to say? It's clear to me that HPB, as you >stated, "was well aware of the differences between "Jesus" and >"Christ."". > >So, I reproduce some passages from Catechism that states that >catholics doesn't understand Jesus and Christ as the same >meaning. > >Abrantes Hi Abrantes, Thanks for giving me the chapter, now I can find the quote. Here is how the quote in question appears in the original English: "In the ideas of the Christians, Christ is but another name for Jesus. The philosophy of the Gnostics, the initiates, and the hierophants understood it otherwise." (158). HPB then continues with an etymological tracing of the word Christos back to the Sanskrit. Her argument here, by the way, is not accepted by modern scholars, as she is drawing a parallel between the Greek word "Christos" and the Sanskrit word "Chrishna" or Krishna. But this is aside from the argument you have raised: Yes, HPB was aware that "Jesus" is a proper name and "Christ" is a title, and she was aware that theologians are also aware of this. But I think HPB is making a different argument here. As you and Alan had pointed out, the name Jesus (Joshua/Jehoshua) indicates the meaning "God Saves" or "He Saves." Christos is made to be a translation of Messiah which I already gave you my reason for believing that this translation is misleading. But Messiah and Christos both have the in common idea of anointing, and Christos is usually translated by your theologians as "anointed one." Therefore anointed by God as the savior of humanity and ruler in the spiritual kingdom that will come at the end of this order of things. Or to put it into the words you have already quoted: "It [Christ] became the name proper to Jesus only because he accomplished perfectly the divine mission that "Christ" signifies." So in this sense, Jesus (who saves humanity) and Christ (anointed by God to save humanity) are two expressions of the same idea. I think this is what HPB was indicating in the above quote. HPB is arguing that the Gnostics believe otherwise, and that the modern Christians (post 100 AD) do not understand the true mystical meaning of the word Christos as used in the Greek mysteries. According to HPB, the Gnostics and Initiates believed that: ...Christos, as a unity, is but an abstraction: a general idea representing the collective aggregation of the numberless spirit-entities, which are the direct emanations of the infinite, invisible, incomprehensible FIRST CAUSE-- the individual spirits of men, erroneously called the souls. They are the divine sons of God, of which some only overshadow mortal men--but this the majority--some remain forever planetary spirits and some--the smaller and rare minority--unite themselves during life with some men. Such God-like beings as Gautama Buddha, Jesus, Tissoo, Chrishna, and a few others had united themselves with their spirits permanently--hence, they became gods on earth. Others such as Moses, Pythagoras, Apollonius, Plotinus, Confucius, Plato, Iamblichus, and some Christian saints, having at intervals been so united, have taken rank in history as demi-gods and leaders of mankind.... (159). The difference is that the Christians are making the title of Christos uniquely "a name proper to Jesus" where in these other philosophies, Christos is an abstraction that is given as a title to any person who has permanently united with their spirit. Jerry HE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 23:52:22 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:52:22 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701195221_345747774@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Bee Alex, I know about the speech writing. She isn't a saint, she's a robot. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 1 23:52:55 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:52:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960701195253_345747952@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Just dirty Alex, One small disagreement. The Irish should have stayed Protestant. Catholicism isn't a religion, it's a disease. Look what it does to people. Chuck the Heretic From jmeier@microfone.net Mon Jul 1 20:21:55 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:21:55 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607020021.AA10054@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Hi Doss -- Ernest Wood's CONCENTRATION was one of my "early favorites" of T literature; which book of his did you get the quotation from? I had a feeling you'd get several quick responses to your post along the "dangerous/not dangerous" line, sort of like what happened when an earlier thread on meditation changed over to a discussion on psychism... so here's my two cents' worth on breathing exercises: Pranayama (or Breathing Exercises) takes the individual from strictly theoretical knowledge/booklearning into practical occultism. Yoga, Pranayama, the Path, "process", "theosophy" -- these are all terms that seem to start empassioned arguments regarding definition and meaning on theos-l, so it is not surprising that there is a strong difference of opinon on this topic. First off, Pranayama is defined by Patanjali in his YOGA SUTRAS as the fourth of the eight parts of the self-discipline of yoga: 1) Restraints 2) Observances 3)Posture 4) Regulation of Breath 5) Abstraction 6) Concentration 7)Contemplation 8) Samadhi [IK Taimni's translation, THE SCIENCE OF YOGA]. The Regulation of the Breath is described *only* after the preliminary purification work has been done: Restraints of Harmlessness, Truthfulness, Non-Theft, Sexual Continence and Non-Acquisitiveness; Observances of Purity/Cleanliness, Contentment, Aspiration, study of Self and Devotion to the Ideal. Only *after* these are established in the life of the aspirant -- along with Asana, poise or right balance -- is is proper to consider breathing exercises. And why is this? It is precisely because of the *effect* of Pranayama on the physical vehicle (the true physical vehicle, which is the etheric or energy body). Pranayama is one of the examples in occultism where it is so easy to mistake the symbol for the substance: "regulation of the breath" is really just a clumsy way of saying in English "regulation of Prana" -- not the same thing at all. The lungs -- and the physical plane breath -- are the SYMBOL of the underlying reality, which is the conscious manipulation of energy/force. So what happens with an increase in energy? The answer to that depends entirely upon the status of the energy centers of the individual and the *habitual patterns of energy distribution*, which is why the emphasis on the beginning is placed on elimination of "vice" from the personality: most of us have enough problems to deal with in our lower natures without artificially stimulating them through premature practice of Pranayama. In a nutshell, it is only "safe" to deal with Pranayama when the centers below the diaphragm are relatively quiescent, and the aspirant *habitually* deals with energy flow through the centers above the diaphragm. It is important to differentiate between "deep and calm breathing" to quiet the bodies before meditation and the specific inhalation/exhalation/interlude training that is true Pranayama. Those latter exercises have definite effects, because of definite changes in patterns of energy distribution. That's cause & effect, the practical definition of karma. While is true that, as someone earlier said, "Wood's fear does not make it so," it is conversely true that none of us can evade effects that result from causes set in motion. That's not "fear", and I personally could not care less whether anyone spends the rest of his days tying his tongue in knots to close the khecari mudra in an attempt to shortcut the Path. There are risks to playing with fire, but we each make our decisions about what is proper practice. There are a number of texts that have been translated as well as such classics as Arthur Avalon's SERPENT FIRE to fire the imagination. Hans-Ulrich Rieker's THE YOGA OF LIGHT (ISBN number 0-913922007-2) is a translation of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, one of the Pranayama classic texts. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone to start serious breathing exercises without personal instruction from someone experienced. Doss asked for "examples of personal experience" with breathing exercises; in an earlier discussion with Jerry S. where we sidetracked into "the dangers of unwise action", I had in mind an acquaintance 20 or so years ago who burned out from a variety of causes, but I suspect that his extensive breathing exercises played a part. At least, he thought at the time that they did. Doss quoted E. Wood as saying, "I felt that I needed special powers, since ordinary ones seemed of little use in life unless conjoined by some chance with special opportunities." This is where Ernest starts to lose focus, IMO. The catch-22 of "special powers" is that we don't get them until we need them, and we won't need them until we have exhausted the possibilities with the mundane senses. That "the ordinary ones seemed of little use" showed a lack of vision, at least on the day he was writing that paragraph. One the whole, though, I like his books. Anyway, that's my two cent's worth. Jim From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 23:07:13 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:07:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Just dirty In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960701073934.006d5058@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2.2.32.19960701073934.006d5058@pop.slip.net>, alexis dolgorukii writes >In this case alan, I suspect your wearing "blinders". bye --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 16:28:55 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:28:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Off the chest In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960701080718.006caba0@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2.2.32.19960701080718.006caba0@pop.slip.net>, alexis dolgorukii writes >Now, I've gotten it off my chest, and you've gotten it off yours. Let's go >back to being good friend shall we? > >alexei We can try :-) as long as I am allowed to be as "down and dirty" as you are. Akan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 23:22:33 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:22:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <3piryAA52F2xEwZG@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: hello everybody In-Reply-To: <9607012149.AA15129@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607012149.AA15129@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >You just have to find the threat ^^^^^^ >of discussion that suits you and ignore the others. A great typo! I love it! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 01:05:08 1996 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:05:08 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: CWL9a.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 CWL09a.TXT This letter from Helen Dennis should have preceded CWL10.TXT but somehow got out of sequence. I have therefore numbered it in sequence with an 'a' suffix. Like the other letters, it speaks for itself. It has been transcribed from the original handwritten version. (To Miss Gosse in England). ------------------- Mrs. Helen I. Dennis 218 E. 60th Street Chicago August 21st '06 My dear friend, How you surprise me! I was so happy over the remembrance and the gift so little and yet so big - I shall use it as a charm on the necklace - indeed have it on so as I write and of course you know how well they agree. It shall be to me a token of stability in more ways than one I hope. How did you know my birthday? I do not remember telling you. It was only a day late - and that doesn't count when it comes from so far. You rouse my curiosity - "by my old days 4000 B.C." - how do you know? One can easily see the symbolism in the pillar and it is interesting. Oh why does not someone with *true* clairvoyant powers read the records and write history! The pyramids have always been so very mysteriously interesting to mankind & would teach the world something worth knowing if one could really read. Midway Plaisance is really a wide boulevard of two streets - 59th at the north - 60th at the south. I learned after moving here that the postal districts divided at the Midway 59th in Hyde Park - 60th in Jackson Pk. so that mail was often delayed by being first sent to the wrong substation by ignorant clerks - so I changed the address to 60th St. in order to avoid the occasional delays. Thank you and thank you again dear friend for your constant kindness I have so much I wish I could say on the A.B. matter - but no time - Remember I shall always love her as herself but remember too that she is Head of the E.S. of *White* Occultism. What is right & honorable to her in her official capacity is a very different matter from anything that is purely a personal one. There are times when the Ministry must dissolve on principle no matter how much they love their king. Well I must close & will write more later. Enclosed speak for themselves and yet in June in her E.S. letter she gives the impression she had not seen this 3rd & 4th boy evidence until June - What an awful lapse of memory! But *why* did she fail to *see* & to *read* the third boys evidence - why did she wait till June to say that nothing can excuse teaching boys on sex matters what is to be kept from their parents! What an awful muddle! Ever Sincerely Helen I. Dennis. ---------------- Transcribed and uploaded by Alan Bain, June 30th 1996. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 2 00:56:30 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:56:30 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: <3ZhFuAA+OH2xEw69@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: CWL12.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 CWL12.TXT This is the last of the presently available handwritten letters from Helen Dennis to Miss Gosse. The "first page of my letter begun so long ago" may in fact be the text uploaded as CWL11.TXT - this will need to be verified if possible, but would account for it's incompleteness. ------------------- 5474 East End Ave Chicago January 24th 1912 My dear Friend, I received the dainty little book and am so glad it is from your hand and pen. I have read only half of it and I marvel at man's inhumanity to man. Think of those horrid days of Inquisition! Surely the world is getting better, for that kind of thing never could happen now, altho there are subtler tortures going on I fancy in many places that we know anything about. I fancy too that you didn't publish a hundredth part of the loathsome awful things that happened during the exposure and persecution of the Knights Templar. I wonder how old the race must become before its occult bodies can keep themselves decently clean! The U.S. is riddled with occult bodies and at the core of each is some rank sex rottenness and books printed that are not fit to travel in the mails. Ah well - if I hadn't gone through what I did in the T.S. I wouldn't believe possible the things of hearsay now. And now I can see that the worst is probably true. I wrote you a long letter some months ago and before I realized what I was doing - there had dropped off my pen and trailed into words the many things I have thought and believe about the T.S. today - X and A.B. and so I did not send the letter as it could not but have hurt you while you give your respect and allegiance to the Society of which they are the head and stand before the world as spokesmen of the great mysteries as tho' they really represented righteousness and true moral and spiritual verities. Ah well, I seldom think of them anymore except as I think of those friends who like yourself I made while in the T.S. and under the glamour of A.B. or rather with my confidence in her moral integrity unshaken. However my gratitude for the blessed truths of Theosophy will always be alive and fortunately can go where respect cannot. So I trust the time may sometime come when I can show my appreciation wherever it is due. I am enclosing the first page of my letter begun so long ago just to save rewriting its message of the first page. Do you count the cost of over-working your woman's head for the next half of your life? It is the worst part of a woman to overstrain at this time and recuperates the most slowly. I am now reading James S. Pryse on the Apocalypse - Have you seen it? I suspect his symbolism & yours will parallel each other & I shall look for it as I read them. At present I have read only the historical part of yours. I belong to a few civic and philanthropic bodies in which I am not active as my health is not good, but some day I hope to be able to help clean up some small spot on this little ball of earth, and I try to begin at home. My family is well and the boys are men of 22 and 25 - both great joys to us. Please give my regards to Mrs. Betts and I wish you both a happy New Year. I thank you so much for the book and I am so glad you wrote my name in it - I may be asking the wise lady some questions about it and shall hope to understand most of it. +Do you know the name of Lucy Bartlett since she married? I met her in Chicago some years ago. This must be all for now and may all the good you desire come to you. Ever Sincerely, Helen ID+ [+ This last section was written in the small space above the address and date on the first page] ---------------- Transcribed and uploaded by Alan Bain, 2 July 1996 --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 2 00:04:34 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:04:34 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: CWL11.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 CWL11.TXT This letter from Helen Dennis to her English friend Miss Gosse is, like the previous one, transcribed from a handwritten original, though at present seems to lack the final part (though this may turn up). I include it as part of the CWL historical material because she alludes to it, although events in America, and Chicago in particular, have moved on a couple of years. The text follows: ---------------------- 5474 East End Ave Chicago October 8th 1911 My dear friend, Your last letter, (I am ashamed to write the date) would have been answered long ago if thoughts could precipitate themselves on paper as good wishes could furnish oceans of ink. I am sorry you are so over worked - Does it pay? I doubt it. I worked under just such pressure while Corr Secy of the E.S. and I am still paying for the strain. It came at a time in my life when a woman should not overtire her nervous system - are you counting this cost? I suppose not and like all overworked people, you will just keep on until something snaps and breaks. You see I got out of it suddenly when for moral reasons I found myself where I could not officially represent Mrs. Besant. So my burden was lifted at once but yours can never be lifted that way and I fear you will go on until the last straw breaks you down - Well this is not pessimism but warning! To answer your letter as to the T.S. - no I seldom hear any news and seldom see any of the members. Those who felt as I did withdrew and no friends of mine in Chicago remained in. there are a new set of people who know nothing of the X trouble and if they do hear are told that he has repented! They do not see the farce of still regarding as a religious teacher and initiate one convicted of such unspeakable crimes! So they swallow things whole as I once did and some day will wake up as many of us did. Mr & Mrs Chidester remain in the T.S. as a matter of sentiment - they joined it long before X was heard of and believe some day the Society will right itself but [missing material]. ---------------- Transcribed and uploaded by Alan Bain, 2 July 1996. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 07:52:58 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:52:58 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702075258.006d581c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 07:54 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >First they had to catch them, then it depended on which earl was getting part >of the take. > >Chuck > >Uncle Chuckie: What historical sources are you using for this? After all as the descendent of a large number of English Earls I have a personal interest in this. After all, I have several living Cousins who are Earls (and a Couple of Dukes too). This is not anything I've heard of before, and English History is a major long term interest of mine. alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:06:09 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:06:09 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210608_426490643@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, Well, it's only been about twenty-five years since I took Neil Blum's English History classes in college, so the text-books are buried away somewhere, but any source on crime in 18th century England will back me up. Everyone was corrupt except George III and he was crazy. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:10:46 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:10:46 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001045_425849025@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Down and dirty Rich, Sorry, but having attained the Gnosis, I'm right, as usual. :-) After all, who, with an ounce of sense, would want to come back? Chuck the Enlightened Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:12:47 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:12:47 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001247_425849664@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: The pounding on the door Alan, Then they should just let the poor dear in and have done with it. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:13:03 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:03 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001302_425849731@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: To Alan and Jacques Paul, Obey speed limits?!? Wear seat belts?!? CHICKEN!!!!!!! Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:12:13 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:12:13 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001212_425849786@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions Rich, Charles Tart should sound familiar. He's a researcher out of the University of California at Davis and had been around forever. He spent the better part of an afternoon in 1993 hiding from me at the World Parliament of Religions. I didn't chase him or anything. He just took one look at me and ran. It was very funny. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:13:28 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:28 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001327_425849760@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Doss, Whoops. I guess I'm just a bit hypersensitive on that. Actually, I have never lost feeling after doing an exercise, but during it, it can get interesting. Some day I am going to have to try to describe it. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:13:09 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:09 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001307_425849805@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions Alex, Ok, we'll have to work out the money. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:13:29 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:29 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001328_425849832@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: hello everybody Rich, I think JHE meant thread. Still the idea of threat on this list is intriguing. And I hope you put me up somewhere near Alex. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 04:13:36 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:36 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702001335_425849866@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: pilgrims process I've avoided this pilgrim thread because I keep having a strange desire to put on a big hat with buckles and burn witches whenever I read it, but I can't help but bring up and old Episcopalian saying in its context: "Many are called, but few are frozen." Chuck the Heretic From cdgert@rci.ripco.com Tue Jul 2 05:13:52 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:13:52 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@rci.ripco.com (CDGertrude) Message-Id: Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions In-Reply-To: <960701121209_345251776@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 1, 96 12:14:51 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 834 > > Rich, > Are you by any chance familiar with the SRI experiment involving silver > futures some years back? > The details escape me but if I remember correctly Charles Tart and co. set up > an experiment to psyhically predict the silver market and were successful, > though I do not remember the degree of success that was involved. > It is generally conceded by those who study such things that successful > gamblers are psychic to one degree or another. > It is not generally admitted, but psychics are used by corporations quite > often these days to predict market behavior. > I am in the process of setting up an experiment in controlling market > behavior. > > Chuck the Heretic > If you succeed, please let me know. If you have any tips for the slot machines, I'd like to know that too! (g) Gertrude the Churchmouse From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 06:14:16 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:14:16 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702061416.006c8974@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Bee At 07:53 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >I know about the speech writing. She isn't a saint, she's a robot. > >Chuck > >The pay is VERY good, and the perks would be nice if it weren't for the paperazzi, but I wouldn't have that job on a bet. Her life isn't her own, nor is that of anyone in her family. It's only fun to be a monarch if you're an absolute monarch. Being the "symbol of the Commonwealth" must be a ghastly bore. If Tony Blair wins the next election she'll be wisest to move to Kentucky where she owns about three stud farms and become a U.S. Citizen and shelter her money somewhere like Cayman. alex From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 06:24:13 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:24:13 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702062413.006babe4@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: hello everybody At 07:24 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Jerry H-E writes> >>Hang in there. There are plenty of us who like to seriously >>discuss theosophical teachings. You just have to find the threat >>of discussion that suits you and ignore the others. > >Richard Ihle writes> >Jacques, this is perhaps the truest thing ever written on theos-l. Just as a >helpful hint, the Hierarchy of Threat would probably at the top involve >Alexis, and at the bottom either Bee or Donna or Richard Taylor or Coherence >or Rudy or . . . if they could be found and resuscitated. . . . > >Godspeed, > >Richard Ihle > > >Richard: Don't you ever get tired of villifying me? I've tried any number of times to reach out to you in a friendly way, and each time I get kicked in the teeth! It is beginning to bore me. alexis From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 06:33:30 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:33:30 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702063330.006d30ec@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: re: improper touching At 05:57 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Alan Bain writes regarding CWL: > >> But he should have been jailed. Nowadays, what's >>called "improper touching" get's the "toucher" twenty years! Jerry: That's a quote from me in a message TO Alan Bain. > >Not only the "touching" that he had admitted to, but the fact >that he tried to bind the children to secrecy concerning his >"advising" and his "touching." CWL would not permit the children >to discuss his "therapy" with their parents or doctor. This put >the children into a terrible moral bind and created considerable >guilt among them--as evidenced in the letters Alan has so far >published. I recently had a discussion with a professor of >abnormal psychology who tells me that this behavior of binding >the children to secrecy is typical of child molesters. But let >us for a moment give CWL the benefit of a doubt and accept his >defense that his teachings were "occult." Putting yourself in >CWL's place, what would be the proper ethical procedure for >teaching occult sexual practices to under age children? And >which occult sexual practices and instruction would be suitable >for pubescent and pre-pubescent children? > > >JHE > >------------------------------------------ > |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | > |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | > |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | > |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | > ------------------------------------------ > Jerry: In answer to your question: There are absolutely no sexual practices and instruction suitable for pre-pubescent children. Except perhaps for that information and investigation that goes on between themselves. No adult, no matter what the pretense has any business interfering in pre-pubertal sexuality. It causes nothing but trouble for the children (ask your friend the Professor of Abnormal Psych) As to pubertal children, of course they require information , but that's what they have parents for! One can talk to young people about sex but "demonstration" (as per CWL's practices) are totally out of order. Today we have certain new problems that didn't exist in the early part of the century and that is we have to teach young people about HPB. But none of this requires having sex with them! His behaviour with very young children means that CWL was not simply a delusional schizophrenic, but criminally insane as well. > alexis> From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 06:37:26 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:37:26 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702063726.006d704c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Just dirty At 07:53 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >One small disagreement. The Irish should have stayed Protestant. > Catholicism isn't a religion, it's a disease. Look what it does to people. > >Chuck the Heretic > >Chuck, they are both "diseases" it's Christianity ( or rather the Judeo-Christian-Islamic Triad) that is the disease. I would estimate that 95% of the worlds psychiatric disorders can be traced to religion, and especially the sexual ones. If the human race got rid of religion and malignant nationalism it would be rid of 99.9% of it's major problems. alex From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 06:49:48 1996 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:49:48 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702064948.006d5898@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Off the chest At 08:41 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19960701080718.006caba0@pop.slip.net>, alexis >dolgorukii writes >>Now, I've gotten it off my chest, and you've gotten it off yours. Let's go >>back to being good friend shall we? >> >>alexei > >We can try :-) as long as I am allowed to be as "down and dirty" as you >are. > >Akan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: >Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html > >But of course you are Alan! And you've been giving me "tit for tat" and I've been giving it right back. so what? That's easy to agree to as long as it is also agreed that when either of us reacts to something the other says, it's agreed to remain friends no matter what. That's what I believe being mature is all about. In a way, that's what Chuck has been talking about, it's "The American Way". For instance, Chuck and I are about a million miles apart politically. I am an extreme social liberal and he is an extreme conservative, I hate Pat Buchanan and Chuck really likes him. But we have become very good friends. The thing both he and I are exercised about is the idea that everyone MUST agree or very politely "decline to state". Both he and I think a rigorous argument is healthy and it clears the air. It also requires people to think, whereas a "mutual admiration society" absolutely precludes thought of any kind. That's what's wrong with Institutional Theosophy, and Fundamentalist Religion, and most Political "Cults", the are in such an encapsulated closed environment society that they never hear anything but agreement. Such incestuous intellectual pollination produces absolutely nothing at all, except extreme surprise when such groups suddenly learn that there are not only those who disagree with them, but those who disagree strongly. In friendship...alexei From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 07:46:45 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:46:45 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702074645.006d47f4@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Tourists and Pilgrims (Reply to Alexis) At 04:08 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote: > > >Tourists and Pilgrims (Reply to Alexis) > >Alexis: > >I think we have a basic disagreement over the purpose of the >spiritual in the world. This is quite true, and it's such a basic disagreement, that we are having a great deal of difficulty in communicating. I really do believe that you are mystified as to why I say the things I do. I too must try harder to communicate exactly WHY I feel the way I do about things you say, and try to describe very clearly what it is that inspires me to see your words in the light I do. I see it as leading everyone, over time, >to the Path, to inner transformations that raise them above the >everyday life of the mundane world. I see our duty, as students >of the spiritual, to work on ourselves and to share whatever >we've been fortunate enought to have enter into our lives. You have just indicated the primary difference between our views of the cosmos. I have been anything but reticent in making known that I am a Shaman. Now I fully accept the fact that you may not view that as anything but hallucination, but it is absolutely valid to me. What it means is that I view everything as an energy field, and I view that energy field as spirit. Therefore to me, spirit is the Only reality, and physical entities and beings are both part of that "spirit" and acted upon by it. I maintain that there is no such thing as "THE" path, but that all things proceed along a "line of development" that is appropriate to that entity or thing. Being part of spirit, and when one actually becomes aware of that fact, demonstrating that is not a "duty" but simply the reality of ones being. We are not "students of the spiritual" we are each an individual field of force and the intelligences intrinsic to that force act upon us to further that development. It cannot really be shared, because it is intrinsic to each individual sentiency. > >I'm not sure why you think that I consider myself so advanced, >nor why you read contempt into my words. Perhaps I'll need to >write more skillfully in the future, because I'm neither feeling >nor intending to communicate such feelings. Eldon: It is becoming quite obvious to me that you are entirely insensible as to why you sound the way you do to me. I am beginning to accept the idea that you perhaps don't consciously intend to sound as self-satisfied as you do. But let me give you an instance: You say above: "I see our duty, as students of the spiritual, to work on ourselves and to share whatever we've been fortunate enough to have enter into our lives". Now, you probably don't mean it that way, but identifying yourself as a "student of the spiritual" seems to be an effort to set yourself, and those like you, aside form other lesser folk, in that you perceive that you have "duties" toward them, like a parent has duties to a child. You also regularly use phrases like "subtle meanings" and "deeper knowledge" and "Ancient Wisdom " and "Mystery Schools" all of which clearly imply that: "I know something you don't know". Do you see how that impression could arise in someone reading your words? You alos seem to reject out of hand any one's methodology that differs from yours and from Core Theosophy. Now you say you don't' do so, but then you turn right around and clearly demonstrate that you do. > >I'm also for sharing with everyone, to the extent that their >interest allows. I'm not for labelling someone as "ok" or "not >ok" and then using that to decide if they're entited to benefit >from Theosophy. You may very well not be doing so, but Joy Mills certainly is. She and I have been totally opposed to one another since 1973, because I believe, and acted upon that belief, that theosophy was a "big tent", and totally eclectic, and wanted to take advantage of the broad public interest at that time into metaphysics to help the society to grow. You cannot imagine how roundly and soundly I got "put down" and she made it very clear that to her, and to the people around her (The E.S>) there was not such thing as theosophy and that The Theosophical society was not for the "rif raf". If you don't feel that way, and you claim not to, then you needs must distance yourself from those who do. > >There's no "disease" associated with the theosophical doctrines >-- rather the reverse. I find a connection through them with >healing, uplifting, informing, and nourishing processes within. >Perhaps you may find yourself sickened by the words and exoteric >ideas used to convey the doctrines? If so, it could be that your >reaction is to dirty wine bottles, not realizing the special >vintage held within? Once again Eldon: The kind of verbiage in the above paragraph is exactly what I am talking about. I think I have made it abundantly clear that I regard all religion as an imposition on humanity and, in many ways a "disease". When the speculative hypotheses that are intrinsic to theosophy are transmogrified into "doctrine" which to me is a synonym for "Dogma" then Theosophy becomes a manifestation of religion and it too becomes an imposition . Please explain to me EXACTLY what you mean when you say: "I find a connection through them with healing, uplifting, informing, and nourishing processes within". > >I don't understand how you would think that anyone with even a >slight benefit from the spiritual wouldn't feel obligated to >share it somehow? This wanting to share is both a mission and a >duty and only grows stronger over time, and it not a sign of >disease or sickness, nor proof that one is deluded. No. It's a >natural result of filling one's life with spiritual contents and >the natural desire to share that arises therefrom. Once again it's a good example of how we differ. I believe that every single sentient life form in the unified field of energy that is the reality of our cosmos benefits from spirit all of the time. I don't believe in "things spiritual", but in the intrinsicness of spirit to all that is. What is "spirit"? It is energy masking itself as intelligence-intelligence masking itself as energy, and it is all that is, was, or ever will be. To me the term "spiritual" is a human affectation that is used primarily to avoid the perception of the reality of ONLY spirit. One doesn't have to "share it" one is born a part of it and automatically and insensibly shares it every moment of one's existence both carnate and excarnate. The "Mission and Duty" to share the perceptions one has intellectually gained, which may be of the apperceptions of others, or then again may only be the "passing on"of those others perceptions of the ideas and theories of still others further back in time. This "mission and duty" as led to the most incredible mass of oppression, repression, and hatefulness. You must surely know that Torquemada and Savanarola both felt exactly as you do. They too had a "mission and duty". How many people died and otherwise suffered because of that "duty"? One thing that a Shaman knows, and finds out early on, is that one does NOT "fill one's life with spiritual contents", but that one's life is an expression of spirit and it fills you on it's terms. You, or I, ar anyone, has nothing to do with the process. Spirit, makes itself obvious to the human consciousness on its own terms, not those of any individual human personality. > >Your evaluation of my message leaves me puzzled. I make no >exclusive claim to the theosophical doctrines, and I speak of >thousands of approaches to the Path. I mention that the highest >responsibility that each of us faces is to tred the Path and to >share what treasures we find with others. How is that smug, >self-satisfied, and monstrously self-righteous? Eldon, there are many people, not simply Shamans, but Zen Roshis and others who would say that it is totally pretentious to pretend to have anything to share with anyone. Once again, it is the aura of "I know something that you don't know" that gives the impression you find so dismaying. Perhaps it is good that we are going through this oh so painful process of sharing views. Perhaps you are hearing things you've never heard before, and perhaps ( I hope so) I am learning not to be so quick to dismiss others. I had never believed that you cared a "tuppence" for my opinion, now I perceive that you do. I cannot tell you how gratified I am. > >-- Eldon > > Alexis dolgorukii> From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 23:37:16 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:37:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Down and dirty In-Reply-To: <960701120951_425328171@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960701120951_425328171@emout17.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Can America itself be characterized by a general absence of mindful "dancing >around things" as Chuck suggests? I don't really think so. I think I see a >lot of Americans doing a lot of judicious dancing around--often just to get a >longer term advantage for themselves, of course, but sometimes just because >they are kind enough to take into account the impact of their words and deeds >on others. Anyway, at least ~I hope~ that Chuck is not right, for that would >mean that America either has not yet developed a manasic soul or has decided >that it is not important enough to keep. . . . An interesting post, though I do not follow all of the gnostic notions (some though) which replied to rather more than I was asking! :-) I too hope that Chuck is not right. A personal question - why "Godspeed"? What perception lies behind this greeting Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 23:29:33 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:29:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <9pLpiGAd9F2xEw5$@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Paragons In-Reply-To: <199607011646.MAA02228@leo.vsla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607011646.MAA02228@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Apologies for the use of names in the header, but it was the >only thing that seemed to fit. > >Alan, you asked if all Americans are down and dirty, rude, >aggressive etc. etc. as depicted by Alexis. I can assure you >that if you ever visit Virginia (not including "Yankee >Virginia", the suburbs of Washington, D.C.) you will find us >paragons of courtliness. Thank you for your kind words. I have not visited Virginia, but I have been to Chicago, Pittsburgh, St. Paul/Minneapolis, Long Island, and parts of Illinois. I was greeted with the utmost courtesy in all of these places bar one - Long Island, NY (My host excepted). A local newspaper in Pontiac, Ill, even put my picture in, and the sherrif was most friendly. As for burning crosses mentioned by Alex, we have just had reports that the Klan are recruiting in England ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 1 23:39:01 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:39:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Down and dirty In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , JRC writes >"Mainstream American morals seem, inexplicably enough, to be directly >derived from 1930's British films" (Gore Vidal) > > Tee Hee, -JRC I guess that explains everything. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 15:35:06 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:35:06 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702113506_346436739@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Jim, The difficulty is the assumption that there is something "special" about developing certain abilities and that is utter nonsense. Psychic abilities are no more special than learning how to read. The idea that somehow one must alter one's life to conform with somebody else's idea of spirituality before attempting to learn how to use that which one already has is nothing more than another of many attempts at social control of those abilities and can be safely rejected out of hand. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 2 15:34:18 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:34:18 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702113417_346437649@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Off the chest Akan, Good Lord, now I know why we have so much trouble on this list. There's and Achen in the camp and he forgot how to spell his name. :-) Chuck the Heretic From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 2 16:01:15 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 12:01:15 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607021601.MAA25908@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Confrontations and mistrust At one level, I am appalled by the level of confrontational rhetoric and mutual mistrust that has often prevailed on theos-l. But at another level, it seems that the microcosm must reflect the macrocosm, and these commodities have never been in short supply in the history of the Theosophical movement. Most of the original founders flew the coop rather quickly. There was deep suspicion and distrust between Olcott and HPB; then between Olcott on one side and Judge and Besant on the other; then Besant changed sides; then it was Olcott and Besant vs. Leadbeater; then Besant changed her mind about CWL and lost of bunch of prominent members... ad nauseum. The ES seems to have been center stage in almost all of the confrontations and explosions of mistrust. What would it take to heal such a deep-seated pathology? It's easy to say, "Disband the ES, pass the Theosophical Bill of Rights" and so on. But that is saying what "They" would have to do to heal it. When the question is "What can *I* do to bring healing?" the immediate and obvious answer is "Not a damn thing, so forget it." Why pour any more energy and time into the bottomless pit of Theosophical conflict? But if theos-l is a microcosm, then perhaps sending some healing energy into this particular vortex of pathology can reverberate outside it? And how would we go about doing that? Just wondering. From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 2 16:38:53 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Doss) In-Reply-To: <199607020021.AA10054@vnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Jim Meier wrote: > here's > my two cents' worth on breathing exercises: > > Pranayama (or Breathing Exercises) takes the individual from strictly > theoretical knowledge/booklearning into practical occultism. I am going to advocate here a perspective on breathing exercises that may be called strictly orthodox. Jim, _all_ eight parts of Patanjali's raja yoga are practical, so pranayama does not come first as a practice. Restraints and observances (yama and niyama, purification of the mind and heart) are to be practiced, too, to achieve practical, not just theoretical purity of life. Another reason for not overestimating importance of pranayama is the fact that in Patanjali's raja yoga the first 5 steps (including pranayama) are a preparation for the last three ones (samyama). > First off, Pranayama is defined by Patanjali in his YOGA SUTRAS as the > fourth of the eight parts of the self-discipline of yoga: 1) Restraints 2) > Observances 3)Posture 4) Regulation of Breath 5) Abstraction 6) > Concentration 7)Contemplation 8) Samadhi [IK Taimni's translation, THE > SCIENCE OF YOGA]. The Regulation of the Breath is described *only* after > the preliminary purification work has been done: Restraints of Harmlessness, > Truthfulness, Non-Theft, Sexual Continence and Non-Acquisitiveness; > Observances of Purity/Cleanliness, Contentment, Aspiration, study of Self > and Devotion to the Ideal. Only *after* these are established in the life > of the aspirant -- along with Asana, poise or right balance -- is is proper > to consider breathing exercises. > Pranayama is one of the examples in occultism where it is so > easy to mistake the symbol for the substance: "regulation of the breath" is > really just a clumsy way of saying in English "regulation of Prana" -- not > the same > It is important to differentiate between "deep and calm breathing" to quiet > the bodies before meditation and the specific > inhalation/exhalation/interlude training that is true Pranayama. >There >are a number of texts > that have been translated as well as such classics as Arthur Avalon's > SERPENT FIRE to fire the imagination. Hans-Ulrich Rieker's THE YOGA OF > LIGHT (ISBN number 0-913922007-2) is a translation of the Hatha Yoga > Pradipika, one of the Pranayama classic texts. There is definitely a difference between Patanjali's pranayama (let's call it pranayama-1) and pranayama in the context of kundalini yoga or hatha yoga (pranayama-2). It's better not to mix them up, otherwise one may get an impression that Patanjali's pranayama-1 is not a true pranayama because he never told about any kind of breathing exercises--just about simple rhythmic breathing (not to be confused with 'deep and calm breathing referred to above). Yes, pranayama is best understood as 'control of prana'; however, in some of the best raja yoga books (not those heavy on promises of quick path to success and supernormal powers) one may read that it actually means _mental_ control of prana achieved through concentration and meditation and not through elaborated breathing exercises. In the context of theosophy, the science of prana is very important (see e.g. Rama Prasad's "The Nature's Finer Forces"). On the other hand, one may notice that elaborated breathing exercises are condemned as harmful in all the primary sources that may be broadly called the theosophical tradition: H.P.B. (e.g. "From the Caves and Jungles of Hindustan"), Alice Bailey ("A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" and "The Light of the Soul"--a translation and interpretation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras), and Agni Yoga (passim). All these sources consider hatha yoga a caricature and distortion of true yoga, i.e. Patanjali's raja yoga. (This is how hatha yoga is to be evaluated now; to put it in the right historical perspective, it is to be remembered that hatha yoga has been a quite respectable thing long ago, in Lemurian times, when the first dense-physical human race needed to put a lot of effort and energy into mastering their newly acquired physical bodies. Hatha yoga is not sound _now_, in the present Aryan race.) As to the kundalini yoga, it in part has something to do with the Atlantean heritage; however, it is a separate issue since we would need to take into account a lot of other things like Hindu Tantricism, Kashmir Shaivism, kalachakra, and so on. >I certainly wouldn't > recommend anyone to start serious breathing exercises without personal > instruction from someone experienced. I would't recommend anyone to start ANY serious breathing exercises, whether under the expert supervision or without it. Maxim Osinovsky From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 2 17:08:35 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:08:35 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960702170835.006ccd30@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Confrontations and mistrust At 12:05 PM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >the bottomless pit of Theosophical conflict? But if theos-l is >a microcosm, then perhaps sending some healing energy into this >particular vortex of pathology can reverberate outside it? And >how would we go about doing that? > >Just wondering. > >Well one could start by agreeing to be honest and open and not interested primarily in "scoring points"! Another thing that could be done is the avoidance of using "loaded" words like "Pathology" to describe a situation in which pathology plays no part at all. There's politics involved on this list, that's for sure, and there are some extremely strong disagreements as to the nature of theosophy/Theosophy, but "Pathology"? Paul what you seem to be saying is that anyone who doesn't share your views is "crazy" because that's what "pathology" refers to. You apparently have only one criterion in seperating the "good' from the "bad" and that is how one reacted to your book. You have apparently never forgiven me for liking your book but with "reservations". I can live with that. alexis From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Tue Jul 2 21:08:57 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:08:57 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607022108.AA10528@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: improper touching >Jerry: In answer to your question: There are absolutely no >sexual practices and instruction suitable for pre-pubescent >children. Except perhaps for that information and investigation >that goes on between themselves. No adult, no matter what the >pretense has any business interfering in pre-pubertal >sexuality. It causes nothing but trouble for the children (ask >your friend the Professor of Abnormal Psych) As to pubertal >children, of course they require information, but that's what >they have parents for! One can talk to young people about sex >but "demonstration" (as per CWL's practices) are totally out of >order. Today we have certain new problems that didn't exist >in the early part of the century and that is we have to teach >young people about HPB. But none of this requires having sex >with them! His behaviour with very young children means that >CWL was not simply a delusional schizophrenic, but criminally >insane as well. > >alexis> Alexis: You answer is what common sense has also told me, but I'm glad to hear it from someone with knowledge of ceremonial magic. Your answer suggests that CWL's reasoning is not based upon any principles of magic. Perhaps Jerry S. has an opinion concerning this too. I posed these questions because evidently a large number of TS members believe otherwise and support CWL's actions. I was hoping to hear from them, and learn their reasons why they believe CWL acted correctly. There is no question that present day laws do not condone this behavior either. I would be interested in hearing his defenders address this issue also. JHE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Tue Jul 2 21:11:04 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:11:04 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607022111.AA14196@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: hello everybody I wrote: >Hang in there. There are plenty of us who like to seriously >discuss theosophical teachings. You just have to find the threat >of discussion that suits you and ignore the others. > >JHE >Richard Ihle writes: >Jacques, this is perhaps the truest thing ever written on >theos-l. Just as a helpful hint, the Hierarchy of Threat would >probably at the top involve Alexis, and at the bottom either Bee >or Donna or Richard Taylor or Coherence or Rudy or . . . if they >could be found and resuscitated. . . . Jim Meier writes: >"threat of discussion"? Now, THAT'S appropriate for theos-l. >:) >Jim Alan Bain writes: >A great typo! I love it! OK, I guess my Freudian slip was showing. Sooner or later truth finds a way to express itself :-) JHE From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Jul 2 23:54:08 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 18:54:08 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960702185703.24ef856c@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Maxim Osinovsky wrote: >I would't recommend anyone to start ANY serious breathing exercises, >whether under the expert supervision or without it. I completely agree with you. I have heard from reliable (non TS sources) of some of the serious problems people have gotten into. There may be those who disagree and have the view that one should not be scared to try. After all it is the individual who has to make up his/her mind with all the available information and decide to take the risk pay dearly if something goes wrong. ...doss ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 3 00:10:41 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:10:41 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960702191349.249f588e@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Hi Jim: >Ernest Wood's CONCENTRATION was one of my "early favorites" of T literature; >which book of his did you get the quotation from? The quote is from the book "Is this Theosophy...?" by Ernest Wood. It is a very very rare book. The incident he describes happened when he was sixteen or seventeen and had not yet known about Theosophy. When I posted the message, I wanted Wood's experience known to theos-l subscribers as well as to elicit if any one had known about similar effects from their personal knowledge. Personally, the question of practice of Pranayama is a settled issue. Being a very very cautious person, I have no inclination to take any risks whatsoever. This is not based on blind belief. I had known couple instances from very reputed (non TS) sources some of the serious problems that resulted from some of the practices. > > Doss asked for "examples of personal >experience" with breathing exercises; in an earlier discussion with Jerry S. >where we sidetracked into "the dangers of unwise action", I had in mind an >acquaintance 20 or so years ago who burned out from a variety of causes, but >I suspect that his extensive breathing exercises played a part. At least, >he thought at the time that they did. Seems to corroborate what I had mentioned earlier. >Doss quoted E. Wood as saying, >"I felt that I needed special powers, since ordinary ones seemed of little >use in life unless conjoined by some chance with special opportunities." As I had stated earlier, this experience was that of a young man in late teens and this should be taken into consideration when considering the above quote. Thanks for the feedback. ...Ramadoss ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 3 00:12:29 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:12:29 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960702191525.249f147e@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises At 12:16 AM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Doss, >Whoops. I guess I'm just a bit hypersensitive on that. Actually, I have >never lost feeling after doing an exercise, but during it, it can get >interesting. Some day I am going to have to try to describe it. > >Chuck > I will very patiently wait for that day! ...doss ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From jmeier@microfone.net Tue Jul 2 20:50:22 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:50:22 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607030050.AA22680@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck) Hi Chuck -- I'm not sure but what you and I are not using the word "psychic" to mean different things. For examples, >Jim, >The difficulty is the assumption that there is something "special" about >developing certain abilities and that is utter nonsense. Psychic abilities >are no more special than learning how to read. That rather depends upon how one defines "certain abilities", doesn't it? Are you saying that, for example, the development of certain abilities described in Patanjali's Sutras, Book III such as the direct perception of the knowledge of previous births (III.19) or the ability to see images in the minds of others (III.20) is on a par with learning how to read? I don't think so. But you are taking a thread on Pranayama back into the "psychism is good, psychism is bad" context, and that's been beat around enough, don't you agree? It's all a matter of context within an individual timeline: while EVERYONE will EVENTUALLY have to experience EVERYTHING, it's very easy to get hung up on mysticism v. meditation or emotion v. intellect as separative dualitites. Pranayama is the science of energy manipulation, and psychism is not the only possible outlet or effect. >The idea that somehow one must alter one's life to conform with somebody >else's idea of spirituality before attempting to learn how to use that which >one already has is nothing more than another of many attempts at social >control of those abilities and can be safely rejected out of hand. >Chuck the Heretic Interesting use of the word "safely" there... while on the one hand I absolutely agree with you about the "un-necessity of conforming to another's idea of spirituality", it is still possible that we can save time (and maybe learn a thing or two) from those who have gone before us. In the case of Pranayama, the folks who urge restraint seem (IMO) to carry more weight than those who argue "Damn the torpedos!" You also wrote of these abilities, "... to learn how to use that which one already has.." and that also makes me think we're not talking about the same thing. Pranayama is generally considered in a context of developing abilites that one does NOT already have, and so I'm not sure quite what you mean in your paragraph above. Psychism -- as I think the term should be used -- encompasses a whole lot more than the simple astralism that HPB (and so many others) warned against. But it isn't often easy to tell on theos-l what people mean when using the word. But to get back to Doss' original question -- from your two posts: Are you saying that breathing exercises do not carry any potential for abuse or for "unexpected and deleterious effects"? Jim From jmeier@microfone.net Tue Jul 2 20:50:23 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:50:23 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607030050.AA22689@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Maxim) On 01 July, Maxim wrote, >I am going to advocate here a perspective on breathing exercises that may >be called strictly orthodox. > >Jim, _all_ eight parts of Patanjali's raja yoga are practical, so pranayama >does not come first as a practice. Restraints and observances (yama and >niyama, purification of the mind and heart) are to be practiced, too, to >achieve practical, not just theoretical purity of life. Of course. But Pranayama is where so many want to *start* practical application, after reading Theosophical texts. Books have been written about harmlessness -- and a pretty good argument can be made for harmlessness as not only the first step on the Path, but for 90+% of the Path -- and yet it is much easier to get people to try a breathing exercise or a new meditation form than to practice restraint in the way we interact with others. That's all I meant. > >In the context of theosophy, the science of prana is very important (see >e.g. Rama Prasad's "The Nature's Finer Forces"). On the other hand, one >may notice that elaborated breathing exercises are condemned as harmful >in all the primary sources that may be broadly called the theosophical >tradition: H.P.B. (e.g. "From the Caves and Jungles of Hindustan"), Alice >Bailey ("A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" and "The Light of the Soul"--a >translation and interpretation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras), and Agni Yoga >(passim). It's interesting that you used the phrase "science of prana", since a science implies something which can be studied, with self-consistent rules and laws governing behavior. Which describes Pranayama pretty well, but still leaves us with the question of "when is it appropriate to study these things, and how do we go about it?" You seem to take an extreme approach to this in the following: >Jim: >>I certainly wouldn't >> recommend anyone to start serious breathing exercises without personal >> instruction from someone experienced. >Maxim: >I wouldn't recommend anyone to start ANY serious breathing exercises, >whether under the expert supervision or without it. Why so adamant? I thought one of the "core teachings of Theosophy" is that there exist people who are not amateurs at this sort of thing? Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:04:03 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:04:03 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210401_426489883@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Rounding off of discussions Gertie, I'm working on it, but that is pretty much PK as opposed to the much simpler task of manipulating group behavior. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:05:06 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:05:06 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210503_426490608@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Off the chest Alex! I don't like Pat Buchanan even though he may have the great good sense to agree with me on a rare occasion. He's a traditionalist and I'm a Libertarian. Other than that, you're right. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:06:31 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:06:31 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210629_426490682@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Down and dirty Alan, I hate to tell you, but for Chuck to not be right would mean that Chuck is wrong and that is biologically impossible. :-) (I can get you this bridge real cheap....) Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:06:32 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:06:32 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210609_426490509@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Just dirty Alex, I think the real disease may be monotheism. There is something about having only one god (and a clearly psychotic one at that) that puts folks in the position of thinking there is only one RIGHT way of doing things and everyone else has to be killed. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:06:52 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:06:52 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960702210626_426490715@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Paragons Alan, Well, unfortunate as having the Klan recruiting in England may seem, at least it will keep your soccer fans out of trouble and give them something to do in the off season. Is the Bristol Lodge opening a chapter? They seem like good candidates for it. Chuck the Heretic From RIhle@aol.com Wed Jul 3 01:21:50 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:21:50 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960702212142_229945840@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Waiting to Exhale >Jim Meier writes> >Pranayama is one of the examples in occultism where it is so >easy to mistake the symbol for the substance: "regulation of the breath" is >really just a clumsy way of saying in English "regulation of Prana" -- not >the same thing at all. Richard Ihle writes> You bring up many worthy points in your reply, Jim. I agree with all of them. The subject of breathing exercises has perhaps done as much as anything to shape my approach to theosophy: I no longer assume at the outset that anyone knows what he or she is talking about. Certainly, the collection of techniques which keeps getting passed along from generation to generation could also be considered "core teachings." If anything, these core teachings often seem even more authoritative and indefectible than those we have hitherto been talking about on theos-l. Even after many years of experimenting, I am reluctant to gainsay what can be found in yoga books etc.; after all, the science of pranayama is the trial-and-error product of countless yogis higher than I am, right? Right. Notwithstanding, just let me offer a few demurrals while genuflecting. . . . First, Jerry S. says that I should not expect results within 40 minutes; I have to be patient for years. Well, Jerry is a better man than I am: I want to at least see some little indicia perhaps not in 40 minutes, but certainly in 40 days. If I have to have faith which will have to stretch into years, I want to first personally see my breathing instructor levitating or doing something else I cannot do--like making a joke that will not piss Alexis off. Second, I am getting ~very~ suspicious about the definite ~inhalation~ bias of most of the techniques. Admittedly, I can get myself pretty supercharged with some of the breath-holding techniques; however, the problem is that the "energy" I am adding to my mind-body package usually seems temporary, and furthermore, it sooner or later needs to be "compensated" for with additional sleeping time. Yes, I keep reading and hearing about yogis tapping into some BIG ENERGY RESERVOIR outside themselves. At first blush this seems like it would be a great thing; however, perhaps it would also be nice to be able to tap some BIG RESERVOIR for some heavier-duty PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, and MENTAL equipment before one started pumping the BIG ENERGY through oneself. Even just using what is probably my own "Little Energy Reservoir," all I am able to do is impress the s---- out of people with my pizazz for a few hours and then sneak off for a long nap to rebalance myself. With BIG ENERGY, what is supposed to happen? Do you really cheat Mother Nature's zero-sum game, or do you transmogrify into some sort of Tazmanian-Devil-Rip-Van-Winkle combo? Third, and still related, I definitely don't think exhalation is understood very well or perhaps even gets the respect it may be due. Think about it: where is your breath in the initial stages of falling asleep? Isn't it very heavy toward the out-breath side of things--sometimes almost stopping completely for a few moments? It is only after the "tingling" diminishes, the muscles relax, the dream-replays are almost over etc. that there is a shift toward the in-breath position. If increased breathing, especially emphasizing inhalation, were better than less breathing, emphasizing exhalation, why are we inclined to do just the opposite when we need to disembrangle ourselves? Are all those people breathing into paper bags to counter panic attacks just deluding themselves? Fourth, Jim's point above about not jumping to the conclusion that breath necessarily equals prana is excellent. In fact, nothing raised my estimation of W.Q. Judge so much as reading an essay of his someone posted on theos-l quite a while ago (unfortunately, I can't retrieve it) where I believe he made a similar observation. If Judge actually preceded Jim in this, both have, if not at least a slightly different, certainly a more broadened perspective than most of the off-the-rack breathing books I have encountered. Finally, there seems to be so much which could be learned about breathing and its relationship to states of consciousness etc. that I get irritated when I start to suspect that that many yogis and others are just passing along some stock techniques that they have inadequately tested for themselves. They are not doing trial-and-error; they are doing smile-and-be-a-purveyor. Naturally, the pranayama core teachings are thereby passed along in pure form; however, there does not seem like much chance for improved understanding if no one is willing to raise questions or report negative experiences. But I'll share: Many years ago after I had been practicing some heavier inhalation techniques for quite a while, I suddenly started feeling a certain lethargy. A blood test revealed a reduced red-cell count--a slight anemia caused by a lack of iron, the doctor said. Could the breathing have been related some way? Who knows? I do, however, think I remember a television show which said that the Sherpas living in oxygen-reduced mountain regions had ~more~ red cells to compensate (someone please correct me if this is misinformation). Would greater oxygenation because of breathing exercises eventually lead to the body producing less oxygen-carrying cells? Well, I'm sure I don't know, but like Ernest Wood, I'll just throw the information out there for possible scrutiny by future "process theosophists." Unlike Ernest, however, I am not one who is naturally inclined to overemphasize danger. There are potentially so many important things which can be learned from breathing experiments--especially those designed by oneself--that I am more inclined just to tell people to buy some Geritol if they are worried and keep going. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Wed Jul 3 01:20:49 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:20:49 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Off the chest In-Reply-To: <960702210503_426490608@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Alex! > I don't like Pat Buchanan even though he may have the great good sense to > agree with me on a rare occasion. He's a traditionalist and I'm a > Libertarian. Chuck ... What do you think of Ayn Rand? -JRC From alexei@slip.net Wed Jul 3 06:42:44 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:42:44 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960703064244.006ea45c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 09:10 PM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >Well, it's only been about twenty-five years since I took Neil Blum's English >History classes in college, so the text-books are buried away somewhere, but >any source on crime in 18th century England will back me up. Everyone was >corrupt except George III and he was crazy. > >Chuck the Heretic > >Everyone???? And George III had prophyry, which is some kind of disease or glandular malfunction and wasn't technically crazy. alex From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 4 00:54:13 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:54:13 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Resignation Mime-Version: 1.0 For Information: Alexis Dolgurukii has resigned from Theosophy International at his own request. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 4 03:35:33 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:35:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703233532_230765445@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, In 18th century Britain the only people who weren't corrupt were the ones who couldn't afford to be. And the fact that George III had Porphyry did not negate the fact that his behavior was irrational, therefore crazy. To my knowledge, he is only the only British monarch who ended up in a straight jacket (though certainly not the only one who deserved to be). Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 04:03:16 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:03:16 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703000312_569006638@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck) Jim, First, I don't do yoga, I do Magick, which is a different kettle of fish in many ways. My feelings on the subject are very simple. I reject out of hand any notion that one has to work on various social qualities before undertaking the development of any ablility. I think that that is foolish. But, if one is specifically referring to kundalini stuff, I may be inclined to agree. When working with that, a level of prudence may be necessary. By the same token, the approach that one should avoid all practice because unnamed and undocumented individuals may have had some difficulty is utter silliness. That is akin to saying one should not learn how to drive because you might get in an accident. One still learns to drive, but one learns to do it without getting killed. The problem I have is with the concept of argument by authority, which states that X is true because Y said it is true and Y is to be believed because three thousand years ago he knew how to write. How do we know that Patanjali had any idea what he was talking about? For all we know, he could have just stood on his head out in the sun too long. Now the problem I have with our Victorian forebears is that they came out of a very circumscribed world and while dear HPB did her rotund best to break most of the rules, she still had the Victorian desire to make new ones. So what I argue for is to look at the available evidence, the real evidence, not the imaginings of the Bogus Bishop, or the pitiful ravings of fools who thought that jazz was black magic. There are literally millions of people who practice hatha yoga with no ill effects at all. There may be many who experience kundalini with no difficulty or ill effect, none of whom have bothered with Patanjali or his silly sutras. What I see, from the experience of those people I know who have worked in these areas, is something that has real benefit to the individual with little or no danger. And as a pentecostal preacher friend once said to me many years ago, "When doctrine conflicts with experience, you go with the experience." To those who decry the possible dangers I say first to show me real evidence that the dangers exist in any form and then give me a working idea of the percentage of population that is actually experiencing them (population being the people actually working with the activities in question). If, out of 1 million people, five get into trouble, the risk is not worth worrying about. If 100,000 have problems, then it is time to look at what is going on. There is simply no real data to back up the worry at the moment. That may change, and if it does I will change my view accordingly. What genuinely worries me is that if something comes along that carries real risks, those who have been exposed to the sort of nonsense that floats around about Hatha Yoga *will*, without doubt, reject all thought of that risk out of hand. The TS has cried wolf (sorry Denali, it's only an expression) for so long about all matters psychic that virtually no one gives a thought to anything the TS literature has to say on the subject, and not without reason. And in the process it has made us look like a pack of paranoid fools which has done no good for any aspect of theosophy, core, process or otherwise. There is a difference between fear and rational prudence and it would be well if our brethren would realize that, because all we are getting is fear and that serves no purpose whatsoever. At the moment, given a reasonably healthy individual, I have seen absolutely no reliable evidence of any deliterious effects from any hatha yoga practice. There have been individuals who have had difficulties who practice hatha yoga, but there is no reason to believe that the yoga was the cause of them, on the contrary, it's therapeutic value is undeniable except in the ravings of Xian fundamentalists and old-fashioned Theosophists. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 04:04:37 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:04:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703000433_569006761@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: breathing exercises and psychic development Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.5596.emout15.mail.aol.com.836366673" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.5596.emout15.mail.aol.com.836366673 Content-ID: <0_5596_836366673@emout15.mail.aol.com.33645> Content-type: text/plain This may not be the most ethical thing to do, but since Paul posted one of his reviews I am going to let you all see one of my fan letters that I got from a person on another list I belong to. I've removed his address so he won't get flamed by our zealots. It should give you some idea of the committment I have to psychic development. Chuck the Heretic --PART.BOUNDARY.0.5596.emout15.mail.aol.com.836366673 Content-ID: <0_5596_836366673@emout15.mail.aol.com.33646> Content-type: text/plain; name="FAN.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! this is off list for a moment. Are you Charles Cosimano, that wrote "Psionic power" and "Psychic power". If you are, I just want to say thank you for the best and most informative books on psychic development of the millenium. Thanks again, James Lin Taiwan R.O.C. =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.5596.emout15.mail.aol.com.836366673-- From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 04:07:59 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:07:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703000208_569005943@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Confrontations and mistrust Paul, It is an interesting problem. what I think we have here is a situation where a lot of nerves have been rubbed raw over a course of years and now folks finally have an outlet to express their feelings. This creates an artificial environment where the only thing that people see about each other is the various postings, which tend to show us at our worst. As long as you have a group of people as strong-willed and opinionated as theosophists tend to be, you are going to have lots of conflict. It is in the nature of the beast. Perhaps the wisest course would be celebrate the conflict rather than try to end it. Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 2 14:49:30 1996 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:49:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: improper touching In-Reply-To: <9607012150.AA15202@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607012150.AA15202@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >Putting yourself in >CWL's place, what would be the proper ethical procedure for >teaching occult sexual practices to under age children? And >which occult sexual practices and instruction would be suitable >for pubescent and pre-pubescent children? > No procedure and no instruction at all. Under age, pubescent and pre- pubescent children would not, IMO, be at all suitable for any form of occult instruction, sexual or otherwise. If any decision were to be made in such matters, I would regard it as the responsibility of the parents, assuming they had such interests. If the children concerned were orphaned or separated from their families, they would (and should, again IMO) be in care of secular welfare which has no concern with such matters. We have enough trouble with such things as young adults! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From alexei@slip.net Wed Jul 3 06:43:44 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:43:44 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960703064344.006d0958@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Off the chest At 09:07 PM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex! >I don't like Pat Buchanan even though he may have the great good sense to >agree with me on a rare occasion. He's a traditionalist and I'm a >Libertarian. >Other than that, you're right. > >Chuck the Heretic > >Oh sorry about that! alex From alexei@slip.net Wed Jul 3 06:52:52 1996 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:52:52 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960703065252.006d491c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: re: improper touching At 05:08 PM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Alexis: You answer is what common sense has also told me, but >I'm glad to hear it from someone with knowledge of ceremonial >magic. Your answer suggests that CWL's reasoning is not based >upon any principles of magic. Perhaps Jerry S. has an opinion >concerning this too. I posed these questions because evidently a >large number of TS members believe otherwise and support CWL's >actions. I was hoping to hear from them, and learn their reasons >why they believe CWL acted correctly. There is no question that >present day laws do not condone this behavior either. I would be >interested in hearing his defenders address this issue also. > >JHE > >------------------------------------------ > |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | > |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | > |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | > |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | > ------------------------------------------ > > >Jerry: I think it's pretty clear that CWL's actions vis a vis those youngsters were based entirely on lust and nothing but lust. When confronted by accusers he "made up a story" or rationale, about some "higher motivation" than lust. It's interesting, but Crime Statistics would appear to indicate that child molesters absolutely cannot control their desires and once out of jail go right back to their pursuits. Sad Isn't it? But that's also true of Leadbeater, no matter how much trouble he got into, he never "gave it up". I'll be interested to hear if you get any further answers. I am signing off this list as of tonight, you can reach me at alexei@ slip.net or by telephone. alexis > From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 3 14:13:52 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 96 10:13:52 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607031413.KAA24040@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Painfully learned lesson To defend oneself against personal attacks is to feed the ego of the person who makes them, and encourage the continuation of the pattern. From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 15:40:35 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:40:35 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703114033_569271793@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Waiting to Exhale Rich, Wonderful post. When people start objecting to breathing we are in real trouble. Now, if only my friend Alex can begin to understand your humor... But take heart, people have been taking my jokes seriously for years. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 3 15:42:28 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:42:28 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703114220_569272431@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Off the chest John, I really like Ayn Rand, even though she was a terrible writer. Her only problem was that she used a logic that had big enough holes for an armored division to get through. Her former assistant, Nathaniel Branden is much better at stating his case. My personal feeling is that if people want to be helpful to others that is all well and good. I do it myself in my weaker moments. But when one is forced to, then that is tyranny. The objection is not to the action. It is to the compulsion. Chuck From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 3 16:42:16 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Maxim) In-Reply-To: <199607030050.AA22689@vnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Jim Meier wrote: > On 01 July, Maxim wrote, > >I am going to advocate here a perspective on breathing exercises that may > >be called strictly orthodox. > > > >Jim, _all_ eight parts of Patanjali's raja yoga are practical, so pranayama > >does not come first as a practice. Restraints and observances (yama and > >niyama, purification of the mind and heart) are to be practiced, too, to > >achieve practical, not just theoretical purity of life. > > Of course. But Pranayama is where so many want to *start* practical > application, after reading Theosophical texts. Books have been written > about harmlessness -- and a pretty good argument can be made for > harmlessness as not only the first step on the Path, but for 90+% of the > Path -- and yet it is much easier to get people to try a breathing exercise > or a new meditation form than to practice restraint in the way we interact > with others. That's all I meant. Is it your observation that pranayama is where so many want to start practical application? I am not sure about it. I am a member of local branch of TSA, and it looks like most branch members are thirsty for occult knowledge (or simply occult information), although there is a great deal of curiosity about siddhis as well. > > > >In the context of theosophy, the science of prana is very important (see > >e.g. Rama Prasad's "The Nature's Finer Forces"). On the other hand, one > >may notice that elaborated breathing exercises are condemned as harmful > >in all the primary sources that may be broadly called the theosophical > >tradition: H.P.B. (e.g. "From the Caves and Jungles of Hindustan"), Alice > >Bailey ("A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" and "The Light of the Soul"--a > >translation and interpretation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras), and Agni Yoga > >(passim). > > It's interesting that you used the phrase "science of prana", since a > science implies something which can be studied, with self-consistent rules > and laws governing behavior. Which describes Pranayama pretty well, but > still leaves us with the question of "when is it appropriate to study these > things, and how do we go about it?" You seem to take an extreme approach to Jim, I believe the isue at point is NOT to do or not to do some exercises or whatever, but motivation. So I cannot answer your question on the level you've asked it. Thus let me shift to a more appropriate level. Then your question may be answered in this way: ask your own higher self if and when it's appropriate--it is the highest authority for the one on the Path, its advices are personalized, and it never deceives you. If your higher self instructs you to do some exercises, I do not see any problem here. The true problem is that many people attempt doing pranayama, yogic postures, and so forth for personal gain--pronto, preferably in 40 minutes or in a few day, or maybe with an apparently altruistic purpose (to better serve their fellow men) but with no higher self's approval. That's what I'm concerned about. One should honestly ask oneself what's more important to him/her--siddhis or the higher self. If siddhis are more desirable and attractive than the attraction of the higher self--well, expect obstacles and troubles. If attaining the higher self if the supreme goal--then one receives all the techniques when and if needed (when the disciple is ready, the teacher--in some form--is immediately available), and siddhis will surely surface as a natural outcome of the regular spiritual development. > this in the following: > > > >Jim: > >>I certainly wouldn't > >> recommend anyone to start serious breathing exercises without personal > >> instruction from someone experienced. > >Maxim: > >I wouldn't recommend anyone to start ANY serious breathing exercises, > >whether under the expert supervision or without it. > > Why so adamant? I thought one of the "core teachings of Theosophy" is that > there exist people who are not amateurs at this sort of thing? Suppose we agree that the ultimate goal on the level of our personalities is to attain union with our higher selves. Then the individual evolution may be roughly divided into two halves: (i) growing and perfecting the lower self, and (ii) recognizing the higher self and merging with it. Since the present root-race is the fifth one, it is supposed to emphasize development of the mind--the fifth principle. So all the physical (both gross physical and subtle physical) means, like breathing exercises, are not appropriate anymore. In fact all of us did all kinds of physical exercises in the distant past (in Lemurian times) to gain control of our physical and ethereal bodies, and back then it has been beautiful and legitimate. Hatha yoga is in our genes so to speak... For the same reason it is surely a way of the least resistance for many people now--with the accompanying joy of accomplishment, like doing elementary-school-level math problems at the age of 50 or solving crosswords... The way of occult study and meditation is harder, but it seems to be the only regular way for the 5th-race folks--except maybe a few individuals whose karma it is to develop techniques of healing for the benefit of the entire humanity, etc. Of course, what's written above is just an opinion (although for convenience it is presented in a dogmatic form), and I would be glad to hear what others think about it. Max From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 4 00:36:59 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:36:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <4cXk3FArIx2xEwaq@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: You may now Exhale In-Reply-To: <960703114033_569271793@emout07.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960703114033_569271793@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >take >heart, people have been taking my jokes seriously for years. > >Chuck the Heretic Mad fools! I doubt the Klan attracted any interest in the Bristol Lodge of the T.S. Had they met, the Klan may have fled back to the U.S. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Jul 4 01:51:55 1996 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 18:51:55 -0700 From: eldon@theosophy.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960704015155.0068d780@beta.webcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Tourists and Pilgrims (Reply to Alexis) Alexis: >I view everything as an energy field, and I view that energy >field as spirit. Therefore to me, spirit is the Only reality, >and physical entities and beings are both part of that "spirit" >and acted upon by it. This part is fine. Life is unified, both visible and invisible, and there is a underlying reality behind things. >I maintain that there is no such thing as "THE" path, but that >all things proceed along a "line of development" that is >appropriate to that entity or thing. Being part of spirit, and >when one actually becomes aware of that fact, demonstrating that >is not a "duty" but simply the reality of ones being. The Path is a metaphor, an analogy that describes certain things that we might do or participate in. There are situations in life where significant changes happen, like in a caterpillar entering a coccoon and later emerging as a butterfly, or like when someone takes a special training program, like going to college and earning a PhD in mathematics. There is the normal course of development in life where we participate in the status quo of human progress. And there is the possibility of hastened development, of rapid progress, for the purpose of being of benefit to the world. "The Path" also refers to this hastening of one's growth, a forced or accelerated development that takes one beyond the events of the external world. >We are not "students of the spiritual" we are each an individual >field of force and the intelligences intrinsic to that force act >upon us to further that development. It cannot really be shared, >because it is intrinsic to each individual sentiency. The spiritual is not directly shared, it is self-won, it is more akin to subtle qualities that give depth to our consciousness. The spiritual, though, can be *expressed*, it can be given tangible expression in the world. And this is the "sharing". I see the wonder and magical qualities of life, as experienced on the higher planes, as becoming part of the experience of life *on this plane*, as an increasing number of people awaken those qualities and express them in the external world. >You say above: "I see our duty, as students of the spiritual, to >work on ourselves and to share whatever we've been fortunate >enough to have enter into our lives". Now, you probably don't >mean it that way, but identifying yourself as a "student of the >spiritual" seems to be an effort to set yourself, and those like >you, aside form other lesser folk, in that you perceive that you >have "duties" toward them, like a parent has duties to a child. There's a certain religious quality or undertone to my writings at times, and this may cause you to react, apart from what I may actually be saying. When I say "student of the spiritual", I mean something like "someone doing this good stuff", not "someone better than others not doing the same thing". There's no thought or feeling of "better than others". The "duties" towards others are those of a more general sense, those that anyone has: to share whatever is special that comes into one's life, to give it tangible expression in the world. When we come to a topic like teaching Theosophy, I'd want to teach the doctrines in stages or levels, not because a new student is somehow less worthy than an older student, but out of a common sense appreciation of the learning process, of now new materials are taught and can be understood and incorporated in someone's life. >You also regularly use phrases like "subtle meanings" and "deeper >knowledge" and "Ancient Wisdom " and "Mystery Schools" all of >which clearly imply that: "I know something you don't know". Do >you see how that impression could arise in someone reading your >words? Sometimes I may know a little more than I'm saying, but more often I'm referring to the materials being studied, to how they go deeper than we may realized, like the tip of an iceberg. But there are many ways of "knowing something more". In teaching Theosophy, an intermediate student knows something the beginner may not, because the introductory materials leave much out. This is "something more" in terms of intellectual study. The same is true regarding life experiences and an appreciation of the spiritual, where you or I or anyone shares what is appropriate with the person we're talking to, and may not indiscriminately say everything that crosses our minds. >You also seem to reject out of hand any one's methodology that >differs from yours and from Core Theosophy. Now you say you >don't' do so, but then you turn right around and clearly >demonstrate that you do. When I'm speaking from the standpoint of the theosophical approach, the specific theosophical approach which I've studied and benefitted from, I'll say "this is the way that it works". And if I'm working to promote that approach, I'll stay focused in that direction. But I don't deny other approaches, nor seek to exclude them from the Adyar T.S. or theos-l. >>I'm also for sharing with everyone, to the extent that their >>interest allows. I'm not for label ling someone as "ok" or "not >>ok" and then using that to decide if they're enticed to benefit >>from Theosophy. >You may very well not be doing so, but Joy Mills certainly is. >She and I have been totally opposed to one another since 1973, >because I believe, and acted upon that belief, that theosophy was >a "big tent", and totally eclectic, and wanted to take advantage >of the broad public interest at that time into metaphysics to >help the society to grow. Here we have two items. First, I'd agree that we'd share what we have to offer, including whatever approach that we may be following, to others without pre-screening and rejecting as unworthy certain people. We let others self-select the materials, to themselves decide if they're "ready" or not. Second, though, this does not mean that any and all beliefs and preferences come under "Theosophy". Your difference with Joy may be over how focused the T.S. should be in supporting certain approaches to the spiritual. >You cannot imagine how roundly and soundly I got "put down" and >she made it very clear that to her, and to the people around her >(The E.S.) there was not such thing as theosophy and that The >Theosophical society was not for the "rif raf". If you don't >feel that way, and you claim not to, then you needs must distance >yourself from those who do. As to "theosophy", it's simply a matter of semantics. You may use it to describe the general process of self-discovery and inner growth that all living things participate in. She may prefer to not use the word in that context. As to the Adyar T.S., it has to determine its own purpose in life. That purpose could be "the big tent", with a different ring for every possible show in town. Or it could be smaller, more specialized, and in support of a more specific mission, like promoting Theosophy or certain approaches to the Path in the West. Personally, I'm not involved in any struggle either way over its direction. I'll give it some of my time and support, as part of my general wish to help out Theosophy. But it's not the only show in town nor the only project I've active with, so I don't have the same stake in it that others might. From the Point Loma point of view, there's not the same problem as you might find with Adyar. A majority of lodges and members became independent in the 1940's and 1950's, and continue that way to this day. They continue to study and work as they see best, without caring about any authority from a national or international organization. >>There's no "disease" associated with the theosophical doctrines >>-- rather the reverse. I find a connection through them with >>healing, uplifting, informing, and nourishing processes within. >>Perhaps you may find yourself sickened by the words and exoteric >>ideas used to convey the doctrines? If so, it could be that your >>reaction is to dirty wine bottles, not realizing the special >>vintage held within? >The kind of verbiage in the above paragraph is exactly what I am >talking about. I think I have made it abundantly clear that I >regard all religion as an imposition on humanity and, in many >ways a "disease". This comes again to semantics. You tend to define "religion" to refer to institutions like a church, but not to more independent and spontaneous activities like Shamanism. I'd find the religious behind all approaches to the spiritual, although I'd expect that some "products" have a very short "shelf-life" before they lose their nourishment and spoil. >When the speculative hypotheses that are intrinsic to theosophy >are transmogrified into "doctrine" which to me is a synonym for >"Dogma" then Theosophy becomes a manifestation of religion and it >too becomes an imposition. Here we have an area of disagreement that involves lengthy discussions to explore and clarify. I'd consider the doctrines as exoteric (although true as fare as they go). I'd consider them as based upon the living reality of life, both visible and invisible, and as a form of organized knowledge that it is possible to pass on to others. >Please explain to me EXACTLY what you mean when you say: "I find >a connection through them with healing, uplifting, informing, and >nourishing processes within". In simply terms, although somewhat incomplete, they form part of a practice of Jnana Yoga. They also fashion (vastly broadening) one's world view. They give *depth* to the experience of life. And they are inseparably correlated with inner changes. >>I don't understand how you would think that anyone with even a >>slight benefit from the spiritual wouldn't feel obligated to >>share it somehow? This wanting to share is both a mission and a >>duty and only grows stronger over time, and it not a sign of >>disease or sickness, nor proof that one is deluded. No. It's a >>natural result of filling one's life with spiritual contents and >>the natural desire to share that arises therefrom. >Once again it's a good example of how we differ. I believe that >every single sentient life form in the unified field of energy >that is the reality of our cosmos benefits from spirit all of the >time. That's true, I'd say, in a very general sense. But I'd also say that the manifestation of spirit on this plane is far from complete. There are higher and yet higher planes of spirit which have no means of expression on this plane, except until there become beings that can carry and give expression to that consciousness. Filling our being with such higher content, there's a natural urge to express it in the world. >I don't believe in "things spiritual", but in the intrinsicness >of spirit to all that is. What is "spirit"? It is energy masking >itself as intelligence--intelligence masking itself as energy, >and it is all that is, was, or ever will be. Our difference might be that I see plane after higher plane, level after higher level, depth followed by greater depth -- a series or succession of unfoldings or vaster aspects of spirit being comprehended, experienced, and expressed *in this world*. >To me the term "spiritual" is a human affectation that is used >primarily to avoid the perception of the reality of ONLY spirit. This is a preference regarding the use of the word. Ideas and concepts are *descriptive* and helpful when in their proper place. It's only when the ideas become rigid, crystallized, and interpreted too literally that they become barriers to perception rather than aids to perception, perception enhancers. >One doesn't have to "share it" one is born a part of it and >automatically and insensibly shares it every moment of one's >existence both carnate and excarnate. I think there is a difference between knowing, getting, realizing, experiencing something grand, where one keeps it to oneself, and where one shares or expresses in the world. The first case is *being without action* and the second is *being inseparable from action*. It is in the sharing that one becomes whole. The sharing is not automatic. It is, in fact, our efforts to express and share our inner depths that makes us better, wiser, more loving, and more evolved people. >The "Mission and Duty" to share the perceptions one has >intellectually gained, which may be of the apperceptions of >others, or then again may only be the "passing on"of those others >perceptions of the ideas and theories of still others further >back in time. This "mission and duty" as led to the most >incredible mass of oppression, repression, and hatefulness. Here I'd make what may be a subtle distinction between sharing something because it's so special, precious, important, and where there's no thought of oneself involved -- a distinction between that state of being enfilled with the spirit and the more mundane and unadmirable state of forcing one's ways on others out of a power and ego trip. These two are really polar opposites. >You must surely know that Torquemada and Savanarola both felt >exactly as you do. They too had a "mission and duty". How many >people died and otherwise suffered because of that "duty"? But there's a big difference from the non-specific urge to share the spiritual that fills one's life, to express the wondrous contents of one's consciousness, an expression that takes on an individual and creative form of its own, and with politics, or even worse, with religious politics, or terrorism, where one is promoting an undesirable organization. Being a living expression of the spiritual, working out of love of it, is radically different than being a clever activist, using questionable means to achieve some desired goal. The difference is as vast as between a genuine Saint and a crafty Jesuit. >One thing that a Shaman knows, and finds out early on, is that >one does NOT "fill one's life with spiritual contents", but that >one's life is an expression of spirit and it fills you on it's >terms. But you're saying almost the same thing, in only slightly different words. It's true that the spirit enfills us on its own terms, and we only set the stage for it's possible, but not guaranteed appearance. But those things that we do when it does enfill us -- that's when we're "filling our lives with spiritual contents". >You, or I, or anyone, has nothing to do with the process. >Spirit, makes itself obvious to the human consciousness on its >own terms, not those of any individual human personality. We can participate in the process, setting the stage and sometimes making it easier to happen. Sometimes that does not matter; it takes us regardless of our willingness, and shakes our awareness and lives. Other times, it may be just a little thing that we do, like stopping to gaze at the mountainsides, or putting on a certain piece of music -- or even writing some email ... >There are many people, not simply Shamans, but Zen Roshis and >others who would say that it is totally pretentious to pretend to >have anything to share with anyone. Paradoxically, it can be argued with success either way. *We*, the personalities, have no spiritual content of our own. We simply express it as it comes through us of its own accord. In this sense, we cannot pretend to have anything to share. On the other hand, we do have skills and abilities with which we *can express* the spiritual, each in differing ways and with differing skills. This may include writing, painting, composing music, healing, psychological counseling, and many other individual skills. >Once again, it is the aura of "I know something that you don't >know" that gives the impression you find so dismaying. I don't feel dismayed, but in a certain way am following a similar path to you and many others. That is, although I use the theosophical materials as a starting point for my studies and thoughts, and as an anchor and "reality check" for what I come up with, I still *look within* towards other ways of knowing things, and attempt to learn and grow in my knowledge in a more direct manner. >Perhaps it is good that we are going through this oh so painful >process of sharing views. Perhaps you are hearing things you've >never heard before, and perhaps (I hope so) I am learning not to >be so quick to dismiss others. I'm listening to what you say, and treating it as yet another source of materials to consider. But when I'm ready to really know something, I'll take that and all I know and then do something that might be described as "listening in the silence" or looking at the ideas from a standpoint of formlessness or emptiness. It's a way of thinking about things, or a way of meditation, or a way of brain-storming, or a combination of the three. But it's also a source of new learning, and I rely on it too. >I had never believed that you cared a "tuppence" for my opinion, >now I perceive that you do. I cannot tell you how gratified I >am. Your opinion counts too, but it's harder to hear it when you're shouting it or when it seems that you're speaking for your own benefit rather than adjusting what you say for the other person. When we're civil, we can have a much more valuable interchange than when we're in attack mode. (This is not to say, of course, that being polite is not attacking, a sugar-coated dagger cuts just as deeply!) The best approach that I've found, when hearing something I don't like, is to ask someone "what do you mean when you say that?" I'll often hear that they meant something that agrees more with me than I've thought. Even, though, when they disagree, I can better understand their position, and know how to better coexist with them in the future. -- Eldon From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 02:22:38 1996 Date: 03 Jul 96 22:22:38 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: to Richard Message-Id: <960704022238_76400.1474_HHL61-1@CompuServe.COM> >It is doubtful, however, that Self is a meaningful human concept when >it is used in such a strict sense; the penultimate Self-Spirit (~Atma-Buddhi~) >is probably the only thing that is within experiential range for even the best >of meditators, and I am guessing that this is what you are referring to as >"Higher Self." Or even Atma-Buddhi-Manas. >Now you suggest a very interesting thing--viz., that when Buddhi-manas >consciousness is used as the "upadhi" for Atma-Buddhi, certain psychic, >magical, or other "paranormal" attributes which "are inherent" in the latter >can be carried into and manifest themselves in the former. This is exactly what I am suggesting. Yes. >If this is the case, it would definitely involve a higher or "truer" type of >psychism or magical operation than most of the psychics and magicians >of my acquaintance seem to be in command of. This is what the Adept does. Whether used for self or others determines its color (white, black, or grey). Jerry S From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 02:22:56 1996 Date: 03 Jul 96 22:22:56 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Waiting to Exhale Message-Id: <960704022256_76400.1474_HHL61-2@CompuServe.COM> >First, Jerry S. says that I should not expect results within 40 minutes; I >have to be patient for years. Well, Jerry is a better man than I am: I want >to at least see some little indicia perhaps not in 40 minutes, but certainly >in 40 days. Richard, a person of your ability should see results very soon indeed. The "years" requirement is for the "average" person. With Tantric vase breathing, you should feel results immediately in the form of psychic heat. >Second, I am getting ~very~ suspicious about the definite ~inhalation~ >bias of most of the techniques. Admittedly, I can get myself pretty >supercharged with some of the breath-holding techniques; however, the problem >is that the "energy" I am adding to my mind-body package usually seems >temporary, and furthermore, it sooner or later needs to be "compensated" for >with additional sleeping time. The inhalation increases oxygenation to the blood. The effects are indeed temporary, although easier to obtain each time. I don't have the need for sleep that you mention. Anyway, if done properly, yogic breathing leads to no breathing--a ceasation in the breathing process with no ill effects. This occurs when the prana enters the sushumna nadi at the muladhara chakra. Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 02:22:59 1996 Date: 03 Jul 96 22:22:59 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: improper touching Message-Id: <960704022259_76400.1474_HHL61-5@CompuServe.COM> >>Putting yourself in >>CWL's place, what would be the proper ethical procedure for >>teaching occult sexual practices to under age children? And >>which occult sexual practices and instruction would be suitable >>for pubescent and pre-pubescent children? > >No procedure and no instruction at all. Under age, pubescent and pre- >pubescent children would not, IMO, be at all suitable for any form of >occult instruction, sexual or otherwise. If any decision were to be >made in such matters, I would regard it as the responsibility of the >parents, assuming they had such interests. Alan, I agree with you 100%. Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 02:22:58 1996 Date: 03 Jul 96 22:22:58 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck) Message-Id: <960704022258_76400.1474_HHL61-4@CompuServe.COM> >The TS has cried wolf (sorry Denali, it's only an expression) for >so long about all matters psychic that virtually no one gives a thought to >anything the TS literature has to say on the subject, and not without reason. >And in the process it has made us look like a pack of paranoid fools which >has done no good for any aspect of theosophy, core, process or otherwise. >There is a difference between fear and rational prudence and it would be well >if our brethren would realize that, because all we are getting is fear and >that serves no purpose whatsoever. Well said, Chuck. Jerry S. From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 4 03:36:14 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:36:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960703233613_230766076@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: from alex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.25492.emout10.mail.aol.com.836451373" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25492.emout10.mail.aol.com.836451373 Content-ID: <0_25492_836451373@emout10.mail.aol.com.185086> Content-type: text/plain Alex asked me to post this, so I am. But don't be too happy. You still have me to deal with. Chuck the Heretic --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25492.emout10.mail.aol.com.836451373 Content-ID: <0_25492_836451373@emout10.mail.aol.com.185087> Content-type: text/plain; name="ALEXOFF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: 96-07-03 03:32:22 EDT > Subj: Error Condition Re: Goodbye all. > From: alexei@slip.net (alexis dolgorukii) Chuck: = =0D I sent the message below to theos-list before I sent the sing-off but obviously the computer sytem failed me. = =0D Would you be so kind as to post that message for me, or forward it to the= list as a whole. =0D If you want to know why this is happening, ask Alan Bain to send you a co= py of the response he made to my "Private Posting" =0D > = > =0D >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > I have grown very weary of being at the apex of "the hierarchy of threa= t", >and so as of tonight I am signing off this list. = > >It's been made all too clear that I am not welcome here. > >Those who wish to reach me can find me on alt. theosophy, or reach me vi= a >personal E-Mail at alexei@slip.net. > >alexis dolgorukii > > > =0D > From alexei@slip.net Wed Jul 3 03:32:37 1996 > Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:37:11 -0700 > Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960703073711.006c63f8@pop.slip.net> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > From: alexis dolgorukii > Subject: Error Condition Re: Goodbye all. --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25492.emout10.mail.aol.com.836451373-- From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 4 00:21:25 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:21:25 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: SINNETT.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 SINNETT.TXT Would any of the Theosophical Societies be what they are today if a series of letters purporting to emanate from certain Mahatmas had not been written to Mr. A.P. Sinnett? I doubt it very much. They may have developed, but, as he himself tells us, The original society formed in 1875 had quite different ideas about its possible role than any Theosophical Society today. After C.W.Leadbeater had resigned, but before A.P.Sinnett himself had left the Society along with some 200 members of the British Section in protest at the reinstatement of CWL, he clearly had some serious concerns about the developments the Theosophical Society was taking. Presumably he regarded this of such importance that he rushed into print in July, 1907, an article that would have seen the light of day quite soon in the natural course of events, and ensured that it was circulated among the members of the T.S. His insights, way back in 1907, are of more than passing interest today, and it might be said by some that some of his greatest concerns as to the future of the Society have proved to be more than justified. In any event, it is an insightful and worthwhile publication with which to conclude what I have called "The CWL Affair" in these recent postings to the Internet theosophy list, "theos-roots." There is more to come, but we shall be taking a small jump to the nineteen-twenties for this ... A.B. ---------------------------------- THE VICISSITUDES OF THEOSOPHY. [By A.P.Sinnett] THE following article will appear in the next - the August number - of BROAD VIEWS, but having so important a bearing on recent events it has seemed to me desirable to circulate it in advance as an independent address to the members of the Theosophical Society:- Hitherto in these pages I have said but little concerning the history or work of the Theosophical Society, choosing rather as my task the effort to show how occult research in the last thirty years has illuminated a great many other problems besides those to which it is specifically related, and has been effective very often in putting a new complexion on problems of science, politics and sociology. But in view of recent events within the Society, it seems worth while to attempt a survey of its past history, its present condition, and its possible future, for the information, not merely of those who may be looking on at its progress from the outside, but also for that of the vast majority within its pale, who have lost sight of the circumstances under which that progress has been accomplished. As almost the only survivor of those associated with the early growth of the Society, much that I might say if the subject were to be reviewed with entire candour would probably be surprising to many of those in whose minds a mythological period of theosophical history has gradually been evolved. By many of those who have been attracted to theosophy since its literature has been abundant, an impression has certainly been derived, no matter how for the moment, to the effect that this mighty wave of regenerating thought is the product of clearly designed, specific action, in the first instance, by those representing accomplished evolutionary progress, spoken of in theosophical writing as the great Masters of Wisdom, sometimes as the Elder Brethren of Humanity, or the Adept Chiefs of that "Occult World," concerning which I wrote more than a quarter of a century ago. People have been led to believe that a certain Russian lady, of very wonderful gifts and characteristics was chosen by the adept Masters as their representative in the world of ordinary life and sent out to inaugurate the theosophical movement. As we see it now, spreading its branches all over the world, those coming at late date within the range of its influence have been encouraged to believe that the seed was sown in the beginning with a conscious foresight concerning the nature of the tree that would grow. Beliefs of this kind belong to the mythology of the theosophical movement. The little society founded in America in the year 1875, and happily selecting the word "Theosophical" as its designation, had no very clear idea concerning its own purpose, was professedly aiming at the study of Egyptian antiquities, and seems to have interested its original members, chiefly because it was associated with a wonder-working magician, Madame Blavatsky. A scoffing crowd has always supposed that because the doings attributed to her were of a kind that seemed miraculous, she must be an impostor. This stupid misconception, culminated much later on in misleading publications issued by the Psychic Research Society, but meanwhile those who were in personal touch with the lady in question, and who knew that she possessed extraordinary and abnormal power over hidden laws of nature as yet unfamiliar to physical science, were carried away with enthusiasm on her behalf and invested her in their imagination with attributes as foreign to her real nature as those of a contrary order imputed to her by the representatives of contemptuous incredulity. During the earliest period of bewildered excitement amongst the little group personally cognisant of Madame Blavatsky's wonder-working powers, she and her staunch ally, Colonel Olcott, drifted to India, vaguely believing that important results would ensue if they attached themselves to a Hindoo religious association, the Arya Sumaj, of which a certain native philosopher, Swami Dyanand Saraswati, was the chief. The scheme ultimately came to nothing; but the fact that at one time it engrossed the zealous efforts of those generally spoken of as the "founders" of the Theosophical Society will be enough to show how tentative in the beginning were the efforts they were concerned in making. They had indeed attempted, on their way out to India, to establish a European branch of the Theosophical Society in London, but the handful of people whose excited interest in Madame Blavatsky's wonder working induced them to constitute themselves members of this branch, had no definite purpose in view, and their organisation faded almost out of existence within the next few years. But then it came to pass that in India, becoming acquainted with Madame Blavatsky, I came through her intervention into close relations with some of those great Elder Brethren of the Adept world, of whom, for the first time, I had heard from her. The results which followed are matters of literary history, although, in the confusion of later events, the true course of that history has generally been forgotten. I found the Master who responded to my appeal ready to answer questions of a penetrating character; ready, also, to give me unmistakable proofs of his abnormal power, proofs which naturally contributed to render me eagerly respectful with reference to his teaching. This in the beginning did no more than illuminate my mind to some extent concerning the place in Nature of the Adept Brotherhood. Thus my first book, "The Occult World," did no more than pass on this illumination to my readers. But after its publication, a more important correspondence began. The Master encouraged me to inquire more and more boldly concerning the mysteries of life and evolution, the laws governing re-birth and existence on superphysical planes. His letters on these great subjects were of thrilling interest to Madame Blavatsky as well as to myself, for their teaching was as new to her as to me, as she frequently assured me in the frank conversation of that period. Her magic powers that rendered her so interesting a personage had been acquired under circumstances that did not invest her with the theoretical knowledge we have since accumulated. When I left India in the beginning of 1883, Madame Blavatsky and Colonel Olcott, representing the Theosophical Society, were already established in a comfortable house at Adyar, Madras, bestowed upon them by a wealthy native sympathiser. There Madame Blavatsky declared, it was her intention to remain for the rest of her life. She had found her final resting place! Her work she conceived to lie entirely in the Eastern world. The Western races, and the European especially, she held to be quite incapable of appreciating occultism, and altogether outside the pale of her operations. But by this time the teaching[s] of my Adept Master were embodied in the volume which had so curious a destiny, "Esoteric Buddhism." It was published immediately on my return to England, and excited attention to an extent for which I had been but little prepared. The fact was that far from being incapable of appreciating the results of occult research, a considerable proportion of the European world was so ripe for its appreciation, that the moment some of its results were available for consideration, intelligent readers in considerable numbers eagerly embraced the magnificent philosophy thus unveiled for the first time. It represented for the West a new development of thought, though the body of knowledge from which it sprang had long been in the possession of initiates pledged to secrecy. The justification of that earlier policy will be found in the literature itself, and I need not interrupt my present story to review it. Around the minute nucleus of the British Theosophical Society the influence of "Esoteric Buddhism" gathered ever increasing numbers, and the new revelation, for it was little less, was most quickly appreciated by people of the highest culture. In the beginning the Theosophical movement in Europe first took root in the classes representative of that culture. Within the first twelve months, the growth of the Society in London was of a kind at once surprising and encouraging; associated also, by reason of its character, with magnificent promise concerning future possibilities. For it had become rooted amongst those who were capable of exercising influence in the world. The habits of civilisation have greatly changed during the progress of the Christian era. In the present day, new views of life and spiritual science are not expected to emanate from the carpenter's shop. In the Western world no one can be respected as a teacher unless he has to some extent the prestige of intellectual achievement, impossible on the lower levels of social life. New thought, to put the matter crudely, may grow from below upwards in the East, it must descend from above in the West, and thus it seemed to those of us who were concerned with the Theosophical movement at its inception, highly desirable that, as far as Europe was concerned it should become firmly established amongst those whose social and intellectual prestige would protect it from ridicule and discredit. Unhappily, however, a curious change soon came over the scene. Madame Blavatsky changed her mind in regard to the permanent character of her settlement at Adyar. Attracted by the unforeseen expansion of the movement in Europe under the circumstances I have described, she, herself, accompanied by Colonel Olcott, came over to this country. Undoubtedly her presence inspired the movement with extraordinary force. Her personal magnetism was marvellously powerful, but while exciting passionate regard with some, it was provocative of exactly the opposite feeling with others. It is improbable that the inner history of the events leading up to the dispatch by the Psychic Research Society, of a Commissioner appointed to investigate Madame Blavatsky's doings in India, will ever be publicly written. But for the time, the result was the utter collapse of the Theosophical Society in Europe, as regards the public esteem in which it was held in the beginning. A mere remnant survived the storms of that period. But Madame Blavatsky was not a person whom it was easy to crush. Gathering by degrees around her a few of those who were still faithful to the original inspiration, Madame Blavatsky, after a stay of some year or two in seclusion at Wurtzburg and Ostend, was brought back to London by a committee of admirers, and her personal influence was revived; although the second growth of the Society bore but little resemblance to that which had been swept away. For the rest its history comes within the recollection of multitudes besides myself. Madame Blavatsky published her great work. "The Secret Doctrine," a book the history of which as regards the circumstances of its production would itself be not a little surprising for many of those who have been taught to revere its curiously variegated contents. Later occult research has invested us with capacities for judgment which show us "The Secret Doctrine," a rather dangerous study for those who take it up without being fully armed with knowledge enabling them to steer their course amongst the frequent passages which later experience has discredited. But, indeed, for all who have come into the movement in the period succeeding the publication of the "Secret Doctrine," that book itself, like so much that belonged to its wonderful authoress, is already tinged with theosophical mythology. I should have some curious explanations to give if I went at length, in connection with the history of "The Secret Doctrine," into the subject of my original correspondence with the Master - and Mme. Blavatsky's relations therewith. Some - though by no means all - of the letters in question came to me through Mme. Blavatsky's intermediation, and some - though by no means all - were curiously amplified in transmission. I am the last person in the world to underrate the powers Mme. Blavatsky exercised during the wonderful period when the Theosophical Society was going through its early vicissitudes, though such powers had nothing to do with the philosophical teaching then in process of development. With what motive, it may be asked, have I thus reviewed the strange history of the movement to which the latter part of my life has been devoted? Recent circumstances will suggest the answer. The stream of events which my own humble efforts first set flowing has become a roaring torrent over which I have long since ceased to have any appreciable control. And now it has taken a new departure since the death of the original President, Colonel Olcott, under circumstances which are regarded from different points of view with widely different feelings. A lady of remarkable personal magnetism, unrivalled eloquence, and unquestionable devotion to the theosophical cause, has been accepted as the new President of the Society, on the nomination of the one who has passed away, with enthusiastic approval by enormous majorities. Probably that approval would have been quite unqualified had it not been that the nomination is described as having been prompted by the appearance at the dying President's bedside, under what the world at large would conceive to be miraculous conditions, of two great Adept Masters undeniably associated with the movement from the beginning, one of them being supposed to be the great teacher from whom that early flood of occult information embodied in "Esoteric Buddhism" originally emanated. It would be impossible here to set forth in detail the reasons which induce some of those amongst theosophists of the largest experience, to regard these alleged manifestations as having been - we know not exactly what - but certainly not what they seemed. It is hardly necessary to say that no one supposes they were the product of any contemptible imposture, of the kind not infrequently associated with alleged appearances of materialised spirits through the agency of mediums. I entertain no doubt whatever that two figures closely resembling the Masters in question, actually stood by Colonel Olcott's beside, materialised and visible to physical plane eyesight. But if they were not those whom they represented, it is obvious that they may have been in reality the result of occult activities distinctly antagonistic to the true welfare of the movement. Should that view be a correct one - and I hold it to be nothing less than my duty to declare that in my opinion the theory that they were what they seemed is absolutely untenable - we may have arrived at a curious turning point in the history of the great movement. It is premature as yet to make any forecast as to the probable course of events. With these we can only deal as they may arise, and amongst the possibilities of the situation, even from the point of view of those who share the disbelief I have just expressed, it will be recognised that loyalty of intention on the part of those concerned with the direction of the movement on the physical plane, may, after all, disconcert any attempts to misdirect its force proceeding from mysterious superphysical agencies. At the same time we must be prepared for the worst, even though the worst need not be of very great moment. The Theosophical Society might vanish off the scene like a burst soap bubble, but the literature that now embodies the results of the last thirty years of occult research will remain for the service and enlightenment of mankind throughout the coming generations, destined beyond any possibility of doubt to play an enormously greater part in the thinking of this century in its later decades than it has been able to perform for a generation amongst which it has arisen. Those few of us who have been in touch with the original sources of its inspiration have long been aware that the seed sown has taken root. We have long been assured, and with advancing knowledge can now understand the assurance, that within the current century all that body of knowledge relating to human evolution, the conditions of its normal progress, and the possibilities of its abnormal acceleration, will be the common property of all cultivated thinkers in the civilised world. And the influence of such knowledge on human welfare will be grandly independent of the fate that may attend specific organisations of a transitory character, or individual activities that may have contributed to the result. The final moral of all this is, that the teaching concerning the great natural laws governing human evolution, set afloat in the first instance under the conditions I have described, and fortified by the manifold results and records of later investigation, constitute, in fact, the Theosophical movement, the health and future of which is independent of all personalities known to the world so far. But even though it may be probable that, in the long run, future generations will devise some better machinery for the promotion of theosophical study than any which exists at present (and is more or less tainted with unhappy traditions), it seems to be the business of those of us who have been working with this machinery so far, to do the best we can with it, as long as our present life's activities may last. For some reasons, looking back on the curious record of my own experiences in its service, it would be a personal relief to me if I could think it right to stand altogether aside, and leave the future developments of theosophy to work out their own assured destiny, perhaps, by shaking themselves altogether free from the embarrassments of the past - and the present. But undoubtedly the great masters from whom, and from whom alone, the teaching I have been able to put forward for the service of the world, has come, have been interested in the Theosophical Society as a useful organisation - though by no means blind to its defects and vagaries, as I have had the means of knowing. I think they would wish all of us, who have had to do with its beginnings, to work on in connection with it, each doing our best to guide it into desirable channels. At present its organisation is unhealthy and unpractical to a grotesque degree. If it is destined to survive and be a leading influence in the religious and philosophical thinking of the European and American worlds, it is ridiculous to suppose that its affairs can be continuously controlled, and its government carried on from so remote and inconvenient a headquarters as that at present established in a suburb of Madras. It is absurd in only a minor degree that its General Council should consist of members of diverse nationality, scattered all over the globe and incapable of meeting. But it is unnecessary at this moment to go into further criticism of its chaotic rules. It will be enough for those, who, with myself, may be disposed to regard them in that light, to consider with me, perhaps, at some future date (if circumstances should appear to prompt such an attempt), the possibility of putting them on a more reasonable footing. A. P. SINNETT. July, 1907 Scanned and uploaded by Alan Bain, July 1996 --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From alexei@slip.net Thu Jul 4 06:43:52 1996 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:43:52 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960704064352.006c3100@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 11:38 PM 7/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >In 18th century Britain the only people who weren't corrupt were the ones who >couldn't afford to be. And the fact that George III had Porphyry did not >negate the fact that his behavior was irrational, therefore crazy. To my >knowledge, he is only the only British monarch who ended up in a straight >jacket (though certainly not the only one who deserved to be). > >Chuck > >The funny (peculiar) thing was, that George III was one of, if not THE, most intelligent men to rule England with the exception of Henry VIII, who was a multi-path. The English appear not to like intelligent Kings, look what they did to Charles I who was also quite intelligent, his book "Ikon Basilike" was a brilliant defense of absolute monarchy.......but it cost him. Most English Monarchs have been too prosaic and dull to even be interesting. alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 4 16:10:44 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:10:44 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960704121043_427524249@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, The only reason the British kept the monarchy was that the kings were dullards. And you're right, when George was functioning, he was brilliant, albeit very thrifty and with an incredibly unattractive queen (Victoria must have got her genes). But I will admit that I have always been partial to George IV. He was a lousy king, but he really knew how to party. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 4 15:55:33 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:55:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960704115533_148927204@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: You may now Exhale Alan, That's scary! Chuck From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 20:06:17 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 16:06:17 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: re: improper touching Message-Id: <960704200616_76400.1474_HHL67-4@CompuServe.COM> >Perhaps Jerry S. has an opinion >concerning this too. I believe that CWL's magical rationale for his sexual conduct is valid, and it is certainly true that mass masturbation can create a powerful vortex. However, the use of children or minors here is wrong. I can't condone teaching such things to minors. Use of masturbation for magical operations is well known in OTO, but not appropriate for Theosophy. I am uncertain as to his motive, but no motive justifies the use of minors in such operations. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 20:06:14 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 16:06:14 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck) Message-Id: <960704200613_76400.1474_HHL67-2@CompuServe.COM> > Pranayama is the science of energy manipulation, and >psychism is not the only possible outlet or effect. In what way does pranayama manipulate energy (I assume here that you equate energy with prana)? My own experience and study led me to beleive that Kundalini Yoga manipulates prana by forcing it up the sushumna nadi and through the chakras. Where does pranayama send prana to? Patanjali never even mentions th nadis or charakas. Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 20:06:18 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 16:06:18 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960704200618_76400.1474_HHL67-5@CompuServe.COM> A short word to Doss, Jim, & Maxim: Breathing exercises are just devices or techniques. There is no right or wrong way to do it. Use whatever works best. It is easy to get wrapped around the axle with breathing exercises, and lose the forest for the trees. Jerry S. From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 20:06:13 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 16:06:13 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960704200612_76400.1474_HHL67-1@CompuServe.COM> >In the case of Pranayama, the folks who urge restraint seem > (IMO) to carry more weight than those who argue >"Damn the torpedos!" Jim, I think you missed the whole point, at least the one that I was trying to make. I never advocated "damn the torpedoes" to anyone, but rather said that without that attititude, Heaven could not be taken and Gnosis could not be obtained (speaking on the average, of course, and always allowing for exceptions when it comes to people). Lots of folks don't want Gnosis nor Heaven, nor enlightenment, nor have any desire to obtain it. Thats fine, because the desire only comes when the person is ready, not before. The desire, or need, comes from within, not from others. So, it would not be at all helpful for me to be advocating "damn the torpedoes" to anyone except those who are ready for it, and those folks will aleady be doing it anyway. BTW, Patajali's pranayama, as far as I know, is a relatively safe approach, and anyone who is afraid to try it had best stick to reading and study. Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 4 20:06:16 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 16:06:16 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Message-Id: <960704200615_76400.1474_HHL67-3@CompuServe.COM> >>Doss quoted E. Wood as saying, >>"I felt that I needed special powers, since ordinary ones seemed of little >>use in life unless conjoined by some chance with special opportunities." > > As I had stated earlier, this experience was that of a young man in >late teens and this should be taken into consideration when considering the >above quote. A typical motive for teenagers, but one that I never had personally. I have always wanted data (knowedge, wisdom, etc). Jerry S. Member TI From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 4 20:41:38 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:41:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960704200618_76400.1474_HHL67-5@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > A short word to Doss, Jim, & Maxim: > > Breathing exercises are just devices or techniques. There > is no right or wrong way to do it. Use whatever works > best. It is easy to get wrapped around the axle with > breathing exercises, and lose the forest for the trees. > > Jerry S. "Use whatever works best"--works for what? What do you mean by the forest? Anybody who plans his/her actions usually picks up a goal first and then chooses appropriare means. Max From blafoun@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 4 21:23:49 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:23:49 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607042123.OAA02756@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Alexis D.'s comments on the List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy > From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:13:44 LOCAL > Subject: RE: Mr. Dolgorukii's comments on THE LIST OF SUGGESTED READING ON HPB & THEOSOPHY Alexis Dolgorukii wrote (on alt.theosophy): Subject: TO ALL-RE: "SUGGESTED READING" > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 00:14:31 -0700 > The reading list suggested by "The Blavatsky Foundation", is strictly "party > line". It's all right as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. It's an > entirely propagandistic list, and worse still it is entirely hagiographic > and pushes theosophy as "Theosophical Core Doctrines" or "received truth" > (I.e. "revelation"). Many of the books are valuable, and some of them > aren't. but the best way to find out is read them and make up your own minds. Daniel Caldwell replies: We have tried to give in the List of Suggested Reading titles that would help interested inquirers and seekers discover more about what Madame Blavatsky wrote and taught. We are glad that Mr. Dolgorukii has written: "Many of the books are valuable, and some of them aren't but the best way to find out is read them and make up your own minds...." Yes we totally agree at least with the latter part of Mr. Dolgorukii's statement and urge interested individuals to "READ THEM AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS." Mr. D. writes: > BUT, it's very important that one take an "antidote" to all this propaganda, > and besides books that are "official", one should read books that were and > are written outside of the parameters of the society. And in Histories of > the society not written as the Society's behest. > There's a book out today called "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" which is not > hagiography, in fact it's the reverse. There's a book called "Theosophy, the > history of a pseudo-religion" by Rene Geuenon, there's a book called "madame > Blavatsky High Priestess of The Occult", there's a really good, but > disturbing book called "Elder Brother" by Gregory Tillett. I know where to > get this one, if any one wants it because it's out of print, but there's a > book seller in California that has a box of them. I bought one from him. > I hope you all see what I mean, you can't really learn anything about the > theosophical movement unless you get opinions from all sides. I am a > "process theosophist" and we think that the theosophical movement gives one > a way to learn and grow. The "other guys" are the "Core Doctrine > Theosophists" they all are absolutely sure they already know everything! Daniel replies: Mr. D does list a number of good works on Theosophical history but unfortunately many of these are out of print. The Tillett book is still available from a Theosophical publisher. Mr. D speaks of "propaganda" but almost 30 of the titles listed out of 70 titles are written by H.P. Blavatsky herself! Mr. D. also writes: " The 'other guys' are the 'Core Doctrine Theosophists' they all are absolutely sure they already know everything!" Is this overexageration or what by Mr. D? Who are "the other guys"? I wish I knew everything!! Unfortunately, I do not. The Blavatsky Foundation is only concerned with letting interested individuals know about the writings of H.P. Blavatsky and her Adept-Teachers. We certainly would encourage such interested people to read HPB's writings. But each person will have to do their own thinking and decide what to believe or what not to believe. Mr. D. also writes: The best of the Theosophical Books, in my opinion, is "Isis Unveiled", it's> the only book that one can buy (in facsimile of the first edition ONLY) and> be certain that it's the way Blavatsky wrote it. All else is more than just> suspect of revisionism, and the things without her name on it are for the> most part, or at least as I view them, nonsense. There's a lot of good in> theosophy, but the Theosophical society is just another religion, and> therefore a source of all the problems that come out of religion.> > alexis dolgorukii Daniel replies: Mr. D. writes that Isis in facsimile of the first edition is the ONLY book one can buy and "BE CERTAIN THAT IT'S THE WAY BLAVATSKY WROTE IT." Is this statement by Mr. D. a factual and truthful statement? In our bibliography we list "The Secret Doctrine" (1888), "The Key to Theosophy" (1889) and "The Voice of the Silence" (1889) in either "facsimile" or in a "verbatim reproduction" of the original editions published DURING HPB's lifetime. Mr. D. says "all else is more than just suspect of revisionism." Should we suspect these facsimiles and verbatim reproductions of what was published during HPB's lifetime? Or should we suspect the factuality of Mr. D.'s statements? Mr. D goes on to say...." and the things without her name on it are for the most part, or at least as I view them, nonsense..." Well, this is certainly Mr. D.'s own opinion or view, isn't it? All we suggest to an interested inquirer and student is to read the books and decide for yourself whether these books are nonsense or not. Mr. D. is entitled to his opinion, but without knowing more of the details behind his supposed "allegations" one is left in the dark as to his evidence and reasoning on these matters. All the writings offered in our list of suggested reading is offered as food for thought. Each student must decide what is what. We close with the following quote from Koot Hoomi, one of HPB's Mahatmic co-workers: "Everyone is master of his own wisdom---says a Tibetan proverb and he is at liberty either to honour or degrade his slave...." I also append BELOW the list of suggested reading to which Mr. D. made his comments. Daniel Caldwell The Blavatsky Foundation P.O. Box 1844 Tucson, AZ 85702 blafoun@azstarnet.com >************************************************************* > >H.P. BLAVATSKY AND THEOSOPHY: >RECOMMENDED READING >A Core Library >(All books are currently in print as of 6/96. >Please e-mail or write to us for price and >ordering information. We will gladly suggest >a course of reading.) >************************************************************* >Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell >Issued by The Blavatsky Foundation >P.O. Box 1844, Tucson, AZ 85702, U.S.A. >blafoun@azstarnet.com >************************************************************ >"Helena Petrovna Blavatsky...[is]...the most insightful >and comprehensive teacher of esoteric philosophy in >modern times...." Shirley Nicholson. Ancient Wisdom, >Modern Insight. 1985. >"...Madame Blavatsky...stands out as the fountainhead >of modern occult thought...." J. Gordon Melton, Jerome >Clark and Aidan A. Kelly. New Age Almanac. 1991. >"Helena Petrovna Blavatsky...is surely among the most >original and perceptive minds of her time....[In her two >major books]....lies...the first philosophy of psychic and >spiritual evolution to appear in the modern West...." >Theodore Roszak. The Unfinished Animal. 1975. >"H.P. Blavatsky...is regarded by all modern theosophical >movements as the most important theosophical writer >and teacher of the modern era." Robert Ellwood, author >of Religious and Spiritual Groups in Modern America, >Alternative Altars and other works. >************************************************************ >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 1: An Introduction to the Life and Influence of Madame >Blavatsky >(1) When Daylight Comes: Biography of Helena Petrovna >Blavatsky. By Howard Murphet. >(2) The Occult World of Madame Blavatsky: Reminiscences >And Impressions by Those Who Knew Her. Compiled and edited >by Daniel H. Caldwell >(3) H.P. Blavatsky and "The Secret Doctrine": Commentaries on >Her Contributions to World Thought. Edited by Virginia Hanson. >(4) HPB: The Extraordinary Life and Influence of Helena >Blavatsky, Founder of the Modern Theosophical Movement. >By Sylvia Cranston. >(5) The Real H.P. Blavatsky: A Study of Theosophy, and a >Memoir of a Great Soul. By William Kingsland. >_____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 2: An Introduction to Theosophy >(6) An Introduction to Esoteric Principles: A Study Guide. By >William Doss McDavid. >(7) Deity, Cosmos and Man: An Outline of Esoteric Science. By >Geoffrey A. Farthing. >(8) Ancient Wisdom---Modern Insight. By Shirley Nicholson. >(9) The Divine Plan: Written in the Form of a Commentary on >H.P. Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine." By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 3: An Classical Introduction to Theosophy >(10) An Invitation to "The Secret Doctrine." By H.P. Blavatsky. >TUP. >(11) The Occult World. By A.P. Sinnett. TPH edition. >(12) Esoteric Buddhism. By A.P. Sinnett. Wizards Bookshelf >edition. >(13) The Key to Theosophy. By H.P. Blavatsky. With Glossary. >TPH edition. >(14) Spiritual Evolution: Articles by H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(15) Teachers and Disciples: Articles by H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(16) The Voice of The Silence: Being Chosen Fragments from the >"Book of The Golden Precepts" for the Daily Use of Lanoos >(Disciples). Translated and Annotated by "H.P.B." TUP edition. >(17) Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and "The Secret Doctrine." >By Countess Constance Wachtmeister and others. >(18) An Abridgement of "The Secret Doctrine." By H.P. Blavatsky. >Edited by Elizabeth Preston and Christmas Humphreys. >(19) H.P. Blavatsky Teaches: An Anthology. Compiled by Michael >Gomes. >_______________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 4: Others Studies on Theosophy >(20) An Inquiry into the Nature of Mind. By Adam Warcup. >(21) Exploring the Great Beyond: A Survey of the Field of the >Extraordinary. By Geoffrey A. Farthing. >(22) When We Die: A Description of the After-Death States and >Processes. By Geoffrey A. Farthing. PLP. >(23) Reincarnation: A New Horizon in Science, Religion and >Society. By Sylvia Cranston and Carey Williams. TUP. >(24) Reincarnation, the Phoenix Fire Mystery: An East-West >Dialogue on Death, and Rebirth from the Worlds of Religion, Science, >Psychology, Philosophy, Art, and Literature, and from Great Thinkers >of the Past and Present. Compiled and Edited by Joseph Head and >S.L. Cranston. TUP. >(25) Concentration and Meditation: A Manual of Mind Development. >By Christmas Humphreys. >(26) Esoteric Keys to the Christian Scriptures & Universal Mystery >Language of Myth and Symbol. By Henry Travers Edge. PLP. >(27) The Gnosis or Ancient Wisdom in the Christian Scriptures. By >William Kingsland. >(28) The Cosmic Womb: An Interpretation of Man's Relationship to >the Infinite. By Arthur W. Osborn. >(29) The Divine Plan by Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(30) Man, The Measure of All Things: In the Stanzas of Dzyan. By >Sri Krishna Prem and Sri Madhava Ashish. >(31) Man, God and the Universe. By I.K. Taimni. >(32) The Mathematics of the Cosmic Mind: A Study in Mathematical >Symbolism. by L. Gordon Plummer. >(33) Cyclic Evolution: A Theosophical View. By Adam Warcup. >(34) Archaic History of the Human Race: As Recorded in "The >Secret Doctrine" By H.P. Blavatsky. By Gertrude W. van Pelt. >PLP. >(35) The Peopling of the Earth. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(36) The Story of Human Evolution. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(37) The Dawning of the Theosophical Movement. By Michael >Gomes. >(38) H.P. Blavatsky, Tibet and Tulku. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(39) The Hall of Magic Mirrors. By Victor A. Endersby. >(40) Obituary: The "Hodgson Report " on Madame Blavatsky: >Re-Examination Discredits the Major Charges Against H.P. >Blavatsky. By Adlai W. Waterman. BF. >(41) Theosophy: A Modern Revival of Ancient Wisdom. By Alvin >Boyd Kuhn. >(42) Masters and Men: The Human Story in The Mahatma Letters. >By Virginia Hanson. >(43) The Mahatmas and Their Letters. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(44) The Readers Guide to "The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett." >Compiled and Edited by George E. Linton and Virginia Hanson. >Second edition. >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 5: A Selection of Writings by H.P. Blavatsky and the >Mahatmas >(45) Isis Unveiled. By H.P. Blavatsky. TC Facsimile of the >Original Edition. 2 volumes bound in one volume. >(46) Isis Unveiled. By H.P. Blavatsky. Edited by Boris de >Zirkoff. TPH edition. 2 volumes. >(47) The Secret Doctrine. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP Facsimile >of the Original Edition. 2 volumes. >(48) Index to "The Secret Doctrine." TC. >(49) The Secret Doctrine. By H.P. Blavatsky. Edited by Boris de >Zirkoff. TPH edition. 3 volumes. Volume 3 is an index volume. >(50) The Key to Theosophy. By H.P. Blavatsky. With Glossary. >TUP edition. >(51) The Voice of the Silence. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP edition. >Also available as a cassette. >(52) The Voice of the Silence. By H.P. Blavatsky. With >Historical Introduction and Index by Boris de Zirkoff. TPH edition. >(53) Secret Doctrine Commentary, Stanzas I-IV: Transactions >of the Blavatsky Lodge. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP edition. >(54) The Theosophical Glossary. By H.P. Blavatsky. TC edition. >(55) "The Esoteric Instructions." By H.P. Blavatsky. TPH, >Collected Writings, Vol. 12 >(56) The Inner Group Teachings of H.P. Blavatsky. Second edition. >PLP >(57) Theosophical Articles. By H.P. Blavatsky. 3 volumes. TC. >(58) A Modern Panarion: A Collection of Fugitive Fragments from >the Pen of H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(59) The Collected Writings. By H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled and >Edited by By Boris de Zirkoff. 15 volumes. Vol. 15 is an index >volume. TPH. >(60) The New Testament Commentaries of H.P. Blavatsky. >Compiled and Annotated by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(61) The Vedanta Commentaries of H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled >and Annotated by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(62) H.P. Blavatsky on the Gnostics. Compiled and Annotated >by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(63) The Buddhism of H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled and annotated >by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(64) Glyphs and Symbols. By H.P. Blavatsky. CGP >(65) The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. >Compiled by A. Trevor Barker. TUP >(66) H.P.B. Speaks. 2 volumes. TPH. >(67) From the Caves and Jungles of Hindostan. By H.P. >Blavatsky. TPH >(68) The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. [In >Chronological Sequence]. Arranged and edited by Vicente Hao >Chin, Jr. [Fourth edition.] TPH Philippines. >(69) The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. Facsimile of 2nd >Edition. Paparback. TUP. >(70) Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom. 2 volumes. >Transcribed and edited by C. Jinarajadasa. TPH. >***************************************************************** >Compiled 6/96 >***************************************************************** From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 4 21:30:13 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960704200612_76400.1474_HHL67-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > BTW, Patajali's pranayama, as far as I know, > is a relatively safe approach, and anyone who is afraid > to try it had best stick to reading and study. I am afraid that when people talk about pranayama they may mean different things. I am glad that Jerry qualified it by saying "Patanjali's pranayama." (Pranato be yama as known to readers of such works as B.K.S.Iyengar's, Swami Sivananda's, S.Yesudian's and so on is something else.) So it seems to be a good time to remind ourselves what Patanjali's pranayama is by quoting ALL relevant sutras (I.K.Taimni's translation): I,34. [The mind becomes clarified by cultivating, among other things], the expiration and retention of breath. II,49. This having been (accomplished) Pranayama which is cessation of inspiration and expiration (follows). II,50. (It is in) external, internal or suppressed modification; is regulated by place, time and number, (and becomes progressively) prolonged and subtle. II,51. That Pranayama which goes beyond the sphere of internal and external is the fourth (variety). II,52. From that is dissolved the covering of light. II,53. And the fitness of the mind for concentration [is achieved]. III,40. By mastery over Udana levitation and noncontact with water, mire, thorns etc. [is achieved]. III,41. By mastery over Samana blazing of gastric fire [is achieved]. As to the goal of Patanjali's pranayama, please refer to II,53 above, and read the following comment by Rammurti S. Mishra ("The Textbook of Yoga Psychology," p.219): "As a result of mastery gained in pranayama, avidya which is covering the light of Self is destroyed. Ignorance about Self is destroyed as one practices pranayama. The magical panorama of lust and desire for material, sensual, and sexual enjoyment is mighty. As soon as one wave of desire is satisified, another arises with greater force. This maze of desires and karmas produces ignorance which covers the conscious principle, sattva, which is luminous by nature. The vicious cycles of evil karmas and evil desires of man produce ignorance regarding reality of Self and cover the sattva quality, conscious principle, of mind and bind one to repeated births and deaths and suffering. "By practice of pranayama this ignorance with its consequences is destroyed and the light of Purusa, Brahman, is perceived shining in its own reality." So much about Patanjali's pranayama. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 4 22:09:27 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:09:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Corrections to my posting below: (Pranato be yama ===> (Pranayama refer to II,53 above ===> refer to II,52 above > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:30:40 -0400 > From: Maxim Osinovsky > Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > BTW, Patajali's pranayama, as far as I know, > is a relatively safe approach, and anyone who is afraid > to try it had best stick to reading and study. I am afraid that when people talk about pranayama they may mean different things. I am glad that Jerry qualified it by saying "Patanjali's pranayama." (Pranato be yama as known to readers of such works as B.K.S.Iyengar's, Swami Sivananda's, S.Yesudian's and so on is something else.) So it seems to be a good time to remind ourselves what Patanjali's pranayama is by quoting ALL relevant sutras (I.K.Taimni's translation): I,34. [The mind becomes clarified by cultivating, among other things], the expiration and retention of breath. II,49. This having been (accomplished) Pranayama which is cessation of inspiration and expiration (follows). II,50. (It is in) external, internal or suppressed modification; is regulated by place, time and number, (and becomes progressively) prolonged and subtle. II,51. That Pranayama which goes beyond the sphere of internal and external is the fourth (variety). II,52. From that is dissolved the covering of light. II,53. And the fitness of the mind for concentration [is achieved]. III,40. By mastery over Udana levitation and noncontact with water, mire, thorns etc. [is achieved]. III,41. By mastery over Samana blazing of gastric fire [is achieved]. As to the goal of Patanjali's pranayama, please refer to II,53 above, and read the following comment by Rammurti S. Mishra ("The Textbook of Yoga Psychology," p.219): "As a result of mastery gained in pranayama, avidya which is covering the light of Self is destroyed. Ignorance about Self is destroyed as one practices pranayama. The magical panorama of lust and desire for material, sensual, and sexual enjoyment is mighty. As soon as one wave of desire is satisified, another arises with greater force. This maze of desires and karmas produces ignorance which covers the conscious principle, sattva, which is luminous by nature. The vicious cycles of evil karmas and evil desires of man produce ignorance regarding reality of Self and cover the sattva quality, conscious principle, of mind and bind one to repeated births and deaths and suffering. "By practice of pranayama this ignorance with its consequences is destroyed and the light of Purusa, Brahman, is perceived shining in its own reality." So much about Patanjali's pranayama. Max From blafoun@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 4 22:40:18 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:40:18 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607042240.PAA23187@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Comments on the Book of Dzyan The following was found on alt.horror.cthulhu. I thought students of Theosophy might find it of some interest. Daniel Caldwell blafoun > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 96 15:31:55 -700 >> Re: Necronomicon/Book of Dzyan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> From maskull@usa.pipeline.com(Maskull >) >> Organization Pipeline >> Date 4 Jul 1996 13:49:34 GMT >> Newsgroups alt.horror.cthulhu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> The first person ever to mention the imaginary "Book >> of Dzyan" was the founder of Theosophy, H. P. Blavatsky. >> She invented "The Book of Dzyan" in order to give credibility >> to her massive "The Secret Doctrine"(1888), about which L. >> Sprague de Camp says the following: >> >> "This huge work is supposedly based upon "The Book of >> Dzyan", of which her Mahatmas showed her a manuscript copy, >> written on palm-leaf pages, in the trances in which she and they >> visited one another. The book, we are told, was originally composed >> in Atlantis in the forgotten Senzar language. "The Secret Doctrine" >> consists of quotations from the "Dzyan" and Mme. Blavatsky's lengthy >> commentaries thereon, interspread with passages of occult gibberish >> and diatribes against "materialistic" science and "dogmatic" religion. >> "The Secret Doctrine", I grieve to say, is neither so ancient, so >> erudite, nor so authentic as it pretends to be. For when it appeared, >> the learned but humorless old William Emette Coleman, outraged by >> Madame Blavatsky's pretensions to Oriental learning, undertook a >> complete exegesis of her works. He showed that her main sources >> were H.H. Wilson's translation of the "Visnu Purana"; Alexander >> Winchell's "World Life; or, Comparative Geology"; Donnelly's "Atlantis"; >> and other contemporary scientific and occult works, plagiarized >> without credit and used in a blundering manner that showed but >> skin-deep acquaintance with the subjects under discussion. She >> cribbed at least part of her "Stanzas of Dzyan" from the "Hymn of >> Creation" in the old Sanskrit "Rig-Veda", as a comparison of the two >> compositions will readily show. Coleman promised a book that should >> expose all of H.P.B.'s sources, including that of the word "Dzyan". >> Unfortunately Coleman lost his library and notes in the San Francisco >> earthquake [1906] and died three years later, his book unwritten." >> ("Lost Continents: The Atlantis Theme in History, Science, and >> Literature" (1954) ISBN 0-486-22668-9) >> >> I think there is no doubt that H.P.L. was familiar with the teachings >> >> of Theosophy, and that they fueled his imagination. They might also >> shed some light on his racism in that Theosophy goes on at great length >> about various "Root Races". According to their teachings, blacks are >> the degenerate remnant of Atlantis, while Asians are devolved Lemurians. >> Jews are in passing referred to as "an unnatural and abnormal link" to >> earlier >> races. It was then the belief in occult circles that the various European >> peoples would interbreed to produce the next "Root Race". >> >> Maskull >> >> >> >> "Dry sorrow drinks our blood." -Romeo From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Fri Jul 5 00:37:22 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:37:22 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607050037.AA06334@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: improper touching >>Putting yourself in >>CWL's place, what would be the proper ethical procedure for >>teaching occult sexual practices to under age children? And >>which occult sexual practices and instruction would be suitable >>for pubescent and pre-pubescent children? So far Alex, Alan and Jerry S. have stated that no procedure or instruction at all would have been appropriate for CWL to use. On the other side of the question, no one has so far come forward to defend CWL's actions. Since the ES pledge requires its members to step forward and defend those who have been unjustly attacked, and remain quiet when the statements are true, I must come to the conclusion that either our ES audience concedes to the truth of the documentation recently presented here, or they have decided to break their pledge. JHE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 5 00:42:10 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Comments on the Book of Dzyan In-Reply-To: <199607042240.PAA23187@web.azstarnet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Blavatsky Foundation wrote: > The following was found on alt.horror.cthulhu. I thought > students of Theosophy might find it of some interest. > > Daniel Caldwell > blafoun > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 96 15:31:55 -700 > > > >> Re: Necronomicon/Book of Dzyan > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> From maskull@usa.pipeline.com(Maskull >) > >> Organization Pipeline > >> Date 4 Jul 1996 13:49:34 GMT > >> Newsgroups alt.horror.cthulhu > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Daniel, Thanks for posting this material. It's really interesting to know what enemies of theosophy think about it, in part because theosophists are not supposed to believe in The Secret Doctrine just because H.P.B. wrote or channeled it, so in some sense the enemies are doing wonderful job by urging us to think deeper about the entire matter. I was glad to see that the alt.horro.cthulhu essay did not shake my high opinion of S.D., mostly because it is so superficious. S.D. is a poor scholarship indeed, but I believe many of those who study it do it not because of its scholarly merits. Max From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 5 01:48:11 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 21:48:11 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Comments on the Book of Dzyan Message-Id: <960705014811_76400.1474_HHL36-1@CompuServe.COM> Dan, the title " Re: Necronomicon/Book of Dzyan" implies that these are the same book. This is the first time I have seen this equation. They are two very different books. The posting itself shows the ignorance of the author, and his posting can be dismissed as silly. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 5 01:48:13 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 21:48:13 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960705014812_76400.1474_HHL36-3@CompuServe.COM> >"Use whatever works best"--works for what? What do you mean by the forest? >Anybody who plans his/her actions usually picks up a goal first and then >chooses appropriare means. > >Max You are right, you should always have a goal (motive) in mind. Since we were discussing breathing techniques, I assumed that you already had a goal in mind. Perhaps Doss had a motive? Anyway, it is doubtful that anyonw would go to much effort to study and practice breathing techniques without some motive or goal in mind. Assume you have a motive. If so, then my suggestion is to practice some technique for a time. If nothing happens (you feel no closer to your goal) then try another technique. Some work good for some people and not at all for others. By "forest" I mean the goal or motive. By "trees" I mean techniques. Sometime people practice techniques long after they have forgotten their intended motive for doing so. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 5 01:48:12 1996 Date: 04 Jul 96 21:48:12 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960705014812_76400.1474_HHL36-2@CompuServe.COM> Quote by Max on Patanjali: >II,49. This having been (accomplished) Pranayama which is cessation of >inspiration and expiration (follows). Prana-yama or "pranic death" will occur automatically when prana from the incoming air energizes the body, and breathing stops. It will stop because it is no longer necessary, the body living on the prana instead. This is how yogis can be buried for long periods of time without air to breathe. It is so easy to do that even I can do it (a few minutes only). Jerry S. Member TI Now for my quote: "The fundamental task which gives the key to many realizations is the silence of the mind ... All kinds of discoveries are made, in truth, when the mental machinery stops, and the first is that if the power to think is a remarkable gift, the power not to think is even more so." (Satprem,1968, SRI AUROBINDU OR THE ADVENTURE OF CONSCIOUSNESS) From blafoun@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 4 21:23:49 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:23:49 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607042123.OAA02756@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Alexis D.'s comments on the List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy > From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) > Subject: RE: Mr. Dolgorukii's comments on THE LIST OF SUGGESTED READING ON HPB & THEOSOPHY > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:13:44 LOCAL Alexis Dolgorukii wrote (on alt.theosophy): Subject: TO ALL-RE: "SUGGESTED READING" > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 00:14:31 -0700 > The reading list suggested by "The Blavatsky Foundation", is strictly "party > line". It's all right as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. It's an > entirely propagandistic list, and worse still it is entirely hagiographic > and pushes theosophy as "Theosophical Core Doctrines" or "received truth" > (I.e. "revelation"). Many of the books are valuable, and some of them > aren't. but the best way to find out is read them and make up your own minds. Daniel Caldwell replies: We have tried to give in the List of Suggested Reading titles that would help interested inquirers and seekers discover more about what Madame Blavatsky wrote and taught. We are glad that Mr. Dolgorukii has written: "Many of the books are valuable, and some of them aren't but the best way to find out is read them and make up your own minds...." Yes we totally agree at least with the latter part of Mr. Dolgorukii's statement and urge interested individuals to "READ THEM AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS." Mr. D. writes: > BUT, it's very important that one take an "antidote" to all this propaganda, > and besides books that are "official", one should read books that were and > are written outside of the parameters of the society. And in Histories of > the society not written as the Society's behest. > There's a book out today called "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" which is not > hagiography, in fact it's the reverse. There's a book called "Theosophy, the > history of a pseudo-religion" by Rene Geuenon, there's a book called "madame > Blavatsky High Priestess of The Occult", there's a really good, but > disturbing book called "Elder Brother" by Gregory Tillett. I know where to > get this one, if any one wants it because it's out of print, but there's a > book seller in California that has a box of them. I bought one from him. > I hope you all see what I mean, you can't really learn anything about the > theosophical movement unless you get opinions from all sides. I am a > "process theosophist" and we think that the theosophical movement gives one > a way to learn and grow. The "other guys" are the "Core Doctrine > Theosophists" they all are absolutely sure they already know everything! Daniel replies: Mr. D does list a number of good works on Theosophical history but unfortunately many of these are out of print. The Tillett book is still available from a Theosophical publisher. Mr. D speaks of "propaganda" but almost 30 of the titles listed out of 70 titles are written by H.P. Blavatsky herself! Mr. D. also writes: " The 'other guys' are the 'Core Doctrine Theosophists' they all are absolutely sure they already know everything!" Is this overexageration or what by Mr. D? Who are "the other guys"? I wish I knew everything!! Unfortunately, I do not. The Blavatsky Foundation is only concerned with letting interested individuals know about the writings of H.P. Blavatsky and her Adept-Teachers. We certainly would encourage such interested people to read HPB's writings. But each person will have to do their own thinking and decide what to believe or what not to believe. Mr. D. also writes: The best of the Theosophical Books, in my opinion, is "Isis Unveiled", it's> the only book that one can buy (in facsimile of the first edition ONLY) and> be certain that it's the way Blavatsky wrote it. All else is more than just> suspect of revisionism, and the things without her name on it are for the> most part, or at least as I view them, nonsense. There's a lot of good in> theosophy, but the Theosophical society is just another religion, and> therefore a source of all the problems that come out of religion.> > alexis dolgorukii Daniel replies: Mr. D. writes that Isis in facsimile of the first edition is the ONLY book one can buy and "BE CERTAIN THAT IT'S THE WAY BLAVATSKY WROTE IT." Is this statement by Mr. D. a factual and truthful statement? In our bibliography we list "The Secret Doctrine" (1888), "The Key to Theosophy" (1889) and "The Voice of the Silence" (1889) in either "facsimile" or in a "verbatim reproduction" of the original editions published DURING HPB's lifetime. Mr. D. says "all else is more than just suspect of revisionism." Should we suspect these facsimiles and verbatim reproductions of what was published during HPB's lifetime? Or should we suspect the factuality of Mr. D.'s statements? Mr. D goes on to say...." and the things without her name on it are for the most part, or at least as I view them, nonsense..." Well, this is certainly Mr. D.'s own opinion or view, isn't it? All we suggest to an interested inquirer and student is to read the books and decide for yourself whether these books are nonsense or not. Mr. D. is entitled to his opinion, but without knowing more of the details behind his supposed "allegations" one is left in the dark as to his evidence and reasoning on these matters. All the writings offered in our list of suggested reading is offered as food for thought. Each student must decide what is what. We close with the following quote from Koot Hoomi, one of HPB's Mahatmic co-workers: "Everyone is master of his own wisdom---says a Tibetan proverb and he is at liberty either to honour or degrade his slave...." I also append BELOW the list of suggested reading to which Mr. D. made his comments. Daniel Caldwell The Blavatsky Foundation P.O. Box 1844 Tucson, AZ 85702 blafoun@azstarnet.com >************************************************************* > >H.P. BLAVATSKY AND THEOSOPHY: >RECOMMENDED READING >A Core Library >(All books are currently in print as of 6/96. >Please e-mail or write to us for price and >ordering information. We will gladly suggest >a course of reading.) >************************************************************* >Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell >Issued by The Blavatsky Foundation >P.O. Box 1844, Tucson, AZ 85702, U.S.A. >blafoun@azstarnet.com >************************************************************ >"Helena Petrovna Blavatsky...[is]...the most insightful >and comprehensive teacher of esoteric philosophy in >modern times...." Shirley Nicholson. Ancient Wisdom, >Modern Insight. 1985. >"...Madame Blavatsky...stands out as the fountainhead >of modern occult thought...." J. Gordon Melton, Jerome >Clark and Aidan A. Kelly. New Age Almanac. 1991. >"Helena Petrovna Blavatsky...is surely among the most >original and perceptive minds of her time....[In her two >major books]....lies...the first philosophy of psychic and >spiritual evolution to appear in the modern West...." >Theodore Roszak. The Unfinished Animal. 1975. >"H.P. Blavatsky...is regarded by all modern theosophical >movements as the most important theosophical writer >and teacher of the modern era." Robert Ellwood, author >of Religious and Spiritual Groups in Modern America, >Alternative Altars and other works. >************************************************************ >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 1: An Introduction to the Life and Influence of Madame >Blavatsky >(1) When Daylight Comes: Biography of Helena Petrovna >Blavatsky. By Howard Murphet. >(2) The Occult World of Madame Blavatsky: Reminiscences >And Impressions by Those Who Knew Her. Compiled and edited >by Daniel H. Caldwell >(3) H.P. Blavatsky and "The Secret Doctrine": Commentaries on >Her Contributions to World Thought. Edited by Virginia Hanson. >(4) HPB: The Extraordinary Life and Influence of Helena >Blavatsky, Founder of the Modern Theosophical Movement. >By Sylvia Cranston. >(5) The Real H.P. Blavatsky: A Study of Theosophy, and a >Memoir of a Great Soul. By William Kingsland. >_____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 2: An Introduction to Theosophy >(6) An Introduction to Esoteric Principles: A Study Guide. By >William Doss McDavid. >(7) Deity, Cosmos and Man: An Outline of Esoteric Science. By >Geoffrey A. Farthing. >(8) Ancient Wisdom---Modern Insight. By Shirley Nicholson. >(9) The Divine Plan: Written in the Form of a Commentary on >H.P. Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine." By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 3: An Classical Introduction to Theosophy >(10) An Invitation to "The Secret Doctrine." By H.P. Blavatsky. >TUP. >(11) The Occult World. By A.P. Sinnett. TPH edition. >(12) Esoteric Buddhism. By A.P. Sinnett. Wizards Bookshelf >edition. >(13) The Key to Theosophy. By H.P. Blavatsky. With Glossary. >TPH edition. >(14) Spiritual Evolution: Articles by H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(15) Teachers and Disciples: Articles by H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(16) The Voice of The Silence: Being Chosen Fragments from the >"Book of The Golden Precepts" for the Daily Use of Lanoos >(Disciples). Translated and Annotated by "H.P.B." TUP edition. >(17) Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and "The Secret Doctrine." >By Countess Constance Wachtmeister and others. >(18) An Abridgement of "The Secret Doctrine." By H.P. Blavatsky. >Edited by Elizabeth Preston and Christmas Humphreys. >(19) H.P. Blavatsky Teaches: An Anthology. Compiled by Michael >Gomes. >_______________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 4: Others Studies on Theosophy >(20) An Inquiry into the Nature of Mind. By Adam Warcup. >(21) Exploring the Great Beyond: A Survey of the Field of the >Extraordinary. By Geoffrey A. Farthing. >(22) When We Die: A Description of the After-Death States and >Processes. By Geoffrey A. Farthing. PLP. >(23) Reincarnation: A New Horizon in Science, Religion and >Society. By Sylvia Cranston and Carey Williams. TUP. >(24) Reincarnation, the Phoenix Fire Mystery: An East-West >Dialogue on Death, and Rebirth from the Worlds of Religion, Science, >Psychology, Philosophy, Art, and Literature, and from Great Thinkers >of the Past and Present. Compiled and Edited by Joseph Head and >S.L. Cranston. TUP. >(25) Concentration and Meditation: A Manual of Mind Development. >By Christmas Humphreys. >(26) Esoteric Keys to the Christian Scriptures & Universal Mystery >Language of Myth and Symbol. By Henry Travers Edge. PLP. >(27) The Gnosis or Ancient Wisdom in the Christian Scriptures. By >William Kingsland. >(28) The Cosmic Womb: An Interpretation of Man's Relationship to >the Infinite. By Arthur W. Osborn. >(29) The Divine Plan by Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(30) Man, The Measure of All Things: In the Stanzas of Dzyan. By >Sri Krishna Prem and Sri Madhava Ashish. >(31) Man, God and the Universe. By I.K. Taimni. >(32) The Mathematics of the Cosmic Mind: A Study in Mathematical >Symbolism. by L. Gordon Plummer. >(33) Cyclic Evolution: A Theosophical View. By Adam Warcup. >(34) Archaic History of the Human Race: As Recorded in "The >Secret Doctrine" By H.P. Blavatsky. By Gertrude W. van Pelt. >PLP. >(35) The Peopling of the Earth. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(36) The Story of Human Evolution. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(37) The Dawning of the Theosophical Movement. By Michael >Gomes. >(38) H.P. Blavatsky, Tibet and Tulku. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(39) The Hall of Magic Mirrors. By Victor A. Endersby. >(40) Obituary: The "Hodgson Report " on Madame Blavatsky: >Re-Examination Discredits the Major Charges Against H.P. >Blavatsky. By Adlai W. Waterman. BF. >(41) Theosophy: A Modern Revival of Ancient Wisdom. By Alvin >Boyd Kuhn. >(42) Masters and Men: The Human Story in The Mahatma Letters. >By Virginia Hanson. >(43) The Mahatmas and Their Letters. By Geoffrey A. Barborka. >(44) The Readers Guide to "The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett." >Compiled and Edited by George E. Linton and Virginia Hanson. >Second edition. >____________________________________________________ >Bookshelf 5: A Selection of Writings by H.P. Blavatsky and the >Mahatmas >(45) Isis Unveiled. By H.P. Blavatsky. TC Facsimile of the >Original Edition. 2 volumes bound in one volume. >(46) Isis Unveiled. By H.P. Blavatsky. Edited by Boris de >Zirkoff. TPH edition. 2 volumes. >(47) The Secret Doctrine. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP Facsimile >of the Original Edition. 2 volumes. >(48) Index to "The Secret Doctrine." TC. >(49) The Secret Doctrine. By H.P. Blavatsky. Edited by Boris de >Zirkoff. TPH edition. 3 volumes. Volume 3 is an index volume. >(50) The Key to Theosophy. By H.P. Blavatsky. With Glossary. >TUP edition. >(51) The Voice of the Silence. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP edition. >Also available as a cassette. >(52) The Voice of the Silence. By H.P. Blavatsky. With >Historical Introduction and Index by Boris de Zirkoff. TPH edition. >(53) Secret Doctrine Commentary, Stanzas I-IV: Transactions >of the Blavatsky Lodge. By H.P. Blavatsky. TUP edition. >(54) The Theosophical Glossary. By H.P. Blavatsky. TC edition. >(55) "The Esoteric Instructions." By H.P. Blavatsky. TPH, >Collected Writings, Vol. 12 >(56) The Inner Group Teachings of H.P. Blavatsky. Second edition. >PLP >(57) Theosophical Articles. By H.P. Blavatsky. 3 volumes. TC. >(58) A Modern Panarion: A Collection of Fugitive Fragments from >the Pen of H.P. Blavatsky. TC >(59) The Collected Writings. By H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled and >Edited by By Boris de Zirkoff. 15 volumes. Vol. 15 is an index >volume. TPH. >(60) The New Testament Commentaries of H.P. Blavatsky. >Compiled and Annotated by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(61) The Vedanta Commentaries of H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled >and Annotated by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(62) H.P. Blavatsky on the Gnostics. Compiled and Annotated >by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(63) The Buddhism of H.P. Blavatsky. Compiled and annotated >by H.J. Spierenburg. PLP >(64) Glyphs and Symbols. By H.P. Blavatsky. CGP >(65) The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. >Compiled by A. Trevor Barker. TUP >(66) H.P.B. Speaks. 2 volumes. TPH. >(67) From the Caves and Jungles of Hindostan. By H.P. >Blavatsky. TPH >(68) The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. [In >Chronological Sequence]. Arranged and edited by Vicente Hao >Chin, Jr. [Fourth edition.] TPH Philippines. >(69) The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. Facsimile of 2nd >Edition. Paparback. TUP. >(70) Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom. 2 volumes. >Transcribed and edited by C. Jinarajadasa. TPH. >***************************************************************** >Compiled 6/96 >***************************************************************** From alexei@slip.net Fri Jul 5 07:26:19 1996 Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:26:19 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960705072619.006c0abc@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 12:10 PM 7/4/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >The only reason the British kept the monarchy was that the kings were >dullards. And you're right, when George was functioning, he was brilliant, >albeit very thrifty and with an incredibly unattractive queen (Victoria must >have got her genes). >But I will admit that I have always been partial to George IV. He was a >lousy king, but he really knew how to party. > >Chuck > >Wait you forgot, he also designed the ugliest Palace in the world...that "Arabian Nights" thingy at Bath! I am given to understand that even at parties the poor fat boob was a dreadful bore, if it wasn't for George (Beau) Brummell no one would have had any fun at all. The problem with Queens (the female truly royal kind) is that with certain amazingly spectacular exceptions, they tend to be horse faced! My Grandfather had a crush on the Empress Elisabeth (von Wittlesbach) of Austria who he said was the most beautiful women he ever saw (he was a connoisseur) they were kind of chummy. He was also really chummy with The Empress Eugenie of France (she was Spanish) and he said that while she wasn't quite as beautiful as Elisabeth, she was extremely vivacious. He also had an admiration of Mary of Teck who was George V's Queen, but he said she was an "Ice Maiden". He said Victoria's female off-spring were universally ugly, but then with their mother what else? Except for one thing when she first ascended the throne she was "pretty" is an innocent girlish way. My Mother says the English don't really like beautiful people any more than they like intelligent ones. They have a pair of connected cliches: "Too smart by half" and "Too good looking by half", the English are terrified of anyone or anything which isn't ordinary! Unless of course, one is amazingly eccentric and peculiar in a fusty way! That they all adore! If you're sufficiently dotty the English will make an ikon out of you! Did I ever tell you about my friend the Italian Count (who quite legitimately traced his family directly back in the male line to Tarquinus Priscus) and his encounter with the prissy little English Viscount at White's? alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 5 23:35:40 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:35:40 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705193330_231670861@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, No you never told me the story and my experience with geneoloy is that it is rather diffictult to get anything accurate that far back unless you're a merovingian and even there some gaps appear. someday I must consult a Mormon on that. Chuck From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:46:35 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:46:35 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: TI Membership list: July 1996 Mime-Version: 1.0 JULY, 1996 THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination." 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life." THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has members in eight countries. ----------------------------------- List of current members: Contact and affiliation information is provided for some members who have expressed a wish to be identified further as a means of promoting our work, and who will be pleased to provide details of "what's on offer" either from the member personally, or within the local area, where specified. Members outside the U.S.A. are also identified by country. 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FOSTER, Ph.D. * Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210 * 913/768-4244 Dir., Reality Sciences Inst. * Acad. Dir., Found. for the Science of Reality Staff, 4 Compuserve & AOL Forums * Owner, 4 EMail Lists * List Co-Moderator Board of Dirs./Exec. V.P./Talent, Tektite Films * BBS Sysop (913/768-1113) E-mail: mfoster@qni.com R.A. GILBERT (UK): Member, TSE (Bristol). Bookseller, Occult, Masonic and Theological. E-mail: Robert@nellie2.demon.co.uk Paul GILLINGWATER: Life member of HPB Lodge, Auckland, New Zealand Currently residing in Vienna, Austria E-mail: paul@actrix.co.at Robert HOLMSTROM: Theosophical Society in Canada E-mail: rholmstrom@voyageur.ca Sy GINSBURG: Theosophical Society in Miami, TSA. E-mail: 72724.413@compuserve.com Joanne GREIG (NZ): Member of Wellington Branch of the T.S. E-mail: astrea@actrix.co.at) Michael GRENIER: Member-at-large, TSA E-mail: mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com Jerry HEJKA-EKINS E-mail: jhe:toto.csustan.edu K. Paul JOHNSON E-mail: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Lewis LUCAS E-mail: llucas@mercury.gc.peachnut.edu Ken MALKIN: Theosophical Society in Miami, TSA E-Mail: Malkin@gil.net John E. MEAD E-mail: jem@vnet.net Anne PICKER E-mail: picker@utkvx.utcc.utk.edu Kim POULSEN (DK): Member of Teosofisk Forening (Theosophical Union), formerly TS Danish Section. [Denmark]. E-mail: poulsen@dk-online.dk Keith PRICE E-mail: 74024.3352@compuserve.com Bjorn ROXENDAL E-mail: roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Jerry SCHUELER E-mail: 76400.1474@compuserve.com Zach SPILLER zas5431@prin.edu Murray STENTIFORD (NZ): Theosophical Society in New Zealand (Auckland) E-mail: mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Gerda J. THOMPSON (USA) Eldon B. TUCKER E-mail: eldon@theosophy.com Terry WALLACE (Attorney) Life member, TSA (Wheaton); President, Ravali County Branch. Originally joined the TS at Adyar via John Coats. Peter WALSTRA (NL): Member, Theosophical Society in the Netherlands (Adyar). World Theosophical Youth Federation. Agni Yoga Society. Database administrator national theosophical library/ E-mail: pwalstra@pi.net Carol WARD E-mail: CarolWard@aol.com Abbreviations: TSA: Theosophical Society in America (Adyar). ULT: United Lodge of Theosophists. TSP: Theosophical Society, Pasadena TSE: Theosophical Society in England Total signed up to date: 38 --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 5 04:25:32 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 21:25:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960705014812_76400.1474_HHL36-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >"Use whatever works best"--works for what? What do you mean by the forest? > >Anybody who plans his/her actions usually picks up a goal first and then > >chooses appropriare means. > > > >Max > > You are right, you should always have a goal (motive) > in mind. Since we were discussing breathing techniques, I > assumed that you already had a goal in mind. Perhaps Doss > had a motive? Anyway, it is doubtful that anyonw would go to > much effort to study and practice breathing techniques without > some motive or goal in mind. Assume you have a motive. > If so, then my suggestion is to practice some technique for > a time. If nothing happens (you feel no closer to your goal) > then try another technique. Some work good for some people > and not at all for others. > By "forest" I mean the goal or motive. By "trees" > I mean techniques. Sometime people practice techniques > long after they have forgotten their intended motive for doing so. > > Jerry S. > Member, TI Jerry, I feel you've missed some messages crucial for this discussion, so your response is not specific. What you described above, is simply well-known trial-and-error technique (a standard dictionary definition: "a way of getting satisfactory results by trying several methods and learning from one's mistakes") usable in any area of human activity and having no specific relation to the subject matter of the present discussion. It is generally good if one is in a complete darkness. Now, we are NOT in complete darkness discussing such issues as siddhis or breathing exercises--so much has been published and said about it. So it does help if one, before contemplating acquisition of siddhis or planning breathing exercises, does a little research and works out a meaningful strategy. If one adopts theosophy as a working hypothesis (by theosophy I mean here its primary sources) then it is provable that siddhis PER SE should not be a goal, and ELABORATE breathing exercises are not to be tried at all--for most people in this fifth root-race. I did not provide all the proofs to save time, but gave enough references to support my viewpoint. (The proof is to be based on the idea that the ultimate goal of someone on the Path of Return is liberation and union with a higher reality rather than sinking into avidya.) Of course, if one adopts another system of thought as a guiding light, one may arrive at totally different conclusions. Max From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 5 04:39:26 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:39:26 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705003924_349258615@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Jerry, I'm the one who says "damn the torpedos!" Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 5 04:40:55 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:40:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705004055_349259213@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Doss) Jerry, And all I wanted to do was get laid. Chuck the Heretic From poulsen@dk-online.dk Fri Jul 5 15:42:24 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:42:24 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB6A77.F433AB60@x.dko.global-one.dk> Subject: Re: Comments of the Book of Dzyan Encoding: 35 TEXT >>......She >> cribbed at least part of her "Stanzas of Dzyan" from the "Hymn of >> Creation" in the old Sanskrit "Rig-Veda", as a comparison of the two >> compositions will readily show. Coleman promised a book that should >> expose all of H.P.B.'s sources. Daniel, it is these attacks which is based on a cocktail of the most superficial investigation and pure fantasy (suitable for a newsgroup dealing with fantasy worlds and roleplaying :-) Take the above quote (I know how you appreciate quotes and examples :-) - only 11 shlokas in the Rigveda deals with creation, 7 of which (from 10.129) are quoted before the stanzas. Without credits in the original version, yes - but these lines are among the most famous in world litterature! Old Shankara would write in the same way, just adding the quotation marks and expecting his audience to be learned enough to know the source by heart. The remaining 4 (10.190) has nothing whatsoever to do with the stanzas (and neither has the Vishnu Purana). The combination of the terms paramartha and nibbana shows the author to be probably a Yogacharya or Madhyamika buddhist (Vedantins use paramartha but very rarely nibbana, they have many other terms for that state). The real scholarship hidden in the SD has nothing to do with foot-notes and credits. In fact most of it (very un-western) simply translates the old (usually sanskrit) idea (like over-soul, immutable principle, etc.) without bothering about crediting anybody with the "discovery" or giving examples of its previous use. It is left to the student to corroborate - and when this is done, a structure of unparalleled scholarship will reveal itself - far, far exceeding anything accomplished by both orientalist scholars and eastern pandits put together. It would be extremely easy to "expose the scholarship" of mr. Coleman. I wonder why these old hare-brained attacks keeps surfacing? In friendship, Kim From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 5 09:45:56 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:45:56 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607051345.AA12696@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/2) Hi Chuck -- Wow, you pack a lot into an e-mail posting... I'd like to address some of those points, because this is leading up to something I consider important regarding discrimination: >Jim, >First, I don't do yoga, I do Magick, which is a different kettle of fish in >many ways. Apparently. Since this is a (more or less) theosophical list, I'm tacking on a few comments at the end re: Magic. >My feelings on the subject are very simple. I reject out of hand >any notion that one has to work on various social qualities before >undertaking the development of any ablility. I think that that is foolish. > But, if one is specifically referring to kundalini stuff, I may be inclined >to agree. When working with that, a level of prudence may be necessary. Aren't you trying to have it both ways, here? There are reasons, after all, for "the development of social qualities", as you say. >By the same token, the approach that one should avoid all practice because >unnamed and undocumented individuals may have had some difficulty is utter >silliness. That is akin to saying one should not learn how to drive because >you might get in an accident. One still learns to drive, but one learns to >do it without getting killed. For "unnamed and undocumented individuals" -- I agree. For "named and documented individuals" whose words carry the weight of demonstrated self-realization well, that's a different kettle of fish. To stretch your analogy: learning to drive involves rules. One can just hop behind the wheel and go, but it is possible to learn from the experience of others, shortening the process considerably. Who wants to learn the hard way? >The problem I have is with the concept of argument by authority, which states >that X is true because Y said it is true and Y is to be believed because >three thousand years ago he knew how to write. How do we know that Patanjali >had any idea what he was talking about? For all we know, he could have just >stood on his head out in the sun too long. Ah, now we come to the crux of it. It appears that you reject out of hand the possiblity of authoritative knowledge. Right? Taking the spin out of your paragraph above, it says "X is true because Y said it is true and Y may be believed for any of a number of possible reasons, but he might be wrong." Agreed? So, you reject the entire concept of argument by authority... OK by me, I'll take a skeptic over a devotee any day. Ram Dass in his book BE HERE NOW writes that there are three ways to come to knowledge of things spiritual: the first is direct experience. The second is through a process of intellectual inference; the use of the rational mind to reconcile the many dualities of existence until what's left is "something else", outside of rationality (that's a tough position, he adds). And the third way is to trust the fact that there are realized Beings; They said it, and so one just knows it to be true. It's not inference, it's not an intellectual process, you just accept what They have said. That's faith. Since you started your post by saying that you do not practice yoga, method one is out for you and you reject the third, so it's not likely anyone's going to change your mind. Which is also OK with me, since I think everyone finds their own way, anyhow. What I don't understand is how you can argue for the negative: you don't believe it, therefore it isn't so. For your specific question of how we know Patanjali didn't just stay out in the sun too long: thousands of people for thousands of years have followed the Rules for self-development in the Sutras. There are some well-regarded folks who say nice things about Raja Yoga, and not all that many who have written that a lifetime of yoga study was a wasted lifetime. Maybe you should try it sometime. :) >Now the problem I have with our >Victorian forebears is that they came out of a very circumscribed world and >while dear HPB did her rotund best to break most of the rules, she still had >the Victorian desire to make new ones. So what I argue for is to look at the >available evidence, the real evidence, not the imaginings of the Bogus >Bishop, or the pitiful ravings of fools who thought that jazz was black >magic. We are all products of our environment to some extent, true enough. The difficulty posed by a healthy skepticism is separating the gold from the dross. >There are literally millions of people who practice hatha yoga with no ill >effects at all. There may be many who experience kundalini with no >difficulty or ill effect, none of whom have bothered with Patanjali or his >silly sutras. What I see, from the experience of those people I know who >have worked in these areas, is something that has real benefit to the >individual with little or no danger. "Silly Sutras"? C'mon, Chuck, it's not necessary even for heretics to denegrate the beliefs of others, and the Sutras are held by many (even Theosophists) to be the basic knowledge of Yoga (Union with Self). Hatha yoga means different things to different people; if you are referring (as I suspect you are) to folks who sit crosslegged or otherwise twisted up in purely physical methods, then I agree with you. And it is undoubtedly a good thing, not just producing of "no ill effects". But you switch over to the subjective tense for your comments on Kundalini; why is that? >And as a pentecostal preacher friend once said to me many years ago, "When doctrine conflicts with experience, you go with the experience." >To those who decry the possible dangers I say first to show me real evidence >that the dangers exist in any form and then give me a working idea of the >percentage of population that is actually experiencing them (population being >the people actually working with the activities in question). If, out of 1 >million people, five get into trouble, the risk is not worth worrying about. > If 100,000 have problems, then it is time to look at what is going on. > There is simply no real data to back up the worry at the moment. That may >change, and if it does I will change my view accordingly. I'm not aware of any statistical data on Enlightenment, but it's an interesting idea. Maybe somebody else will be able to post something on this? :) >What genuinely worries me is that if something comes along that carries real >risks, those who have been exposed to the sort of nonsense that floats around >about Hatha Yoga *will*, without doubt, reject all thought of that risk out >of hand. The TS has cried wolf (sorry Denali, it's only an expression) for >so long about all matters psychic that virtually no one gives a thought to >anything the TS literature has to say on the subject, and not without reason. > And in the process it has made us look like a pack of paranoid fools which >has done no good for any aspect of theosophy, core, process or otherwise. >There is a difference between fear and rational prudence and it would be well >if our brethren would realize that, because all we are getting is fear and >that serves no purpose whatsoever. >At the moment, given a reasonably healthy individual, I have seen absolutely >no reliable evidence of any deliterious effects from any hatha yoga practice. > There have been individuals who have had difficulties who practice hatha >yoga, but there is no reason to believe that the yoga was the cause of them, >on the contrary, it's therapeutic value is undeniable except in the ravings >of Xian fundamentalists and old-fashioned Theosophists. > >Chuck I think your post drifted away here from pranayama to strictly physical hatha yoga practices and the much-debated questions regarding psychism in Theosophy, so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. "All we are getting is fear" -- say what? What I saw posted was merely the repetition of some time-honored considerations regarding the possible potential consequences of advanced Pranayama exercises, and that seems to me more of "rational prudence" than fear. (Why DOES that word keep coming up whenever anyone questions anything on theos-l? Just an open question.) Jim PS: notes on Magic: This is becoming a lengthy post; the SD reference follows in a separate listing. From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 5 09:45:57 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:45:57 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607051345.AA12706@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Magic (Chuck/2) Magic. -- The very word magic bears within itself proof of its high origin. The Latin Magus, the Greek Magos, a magician, gives us all those other words that are so indicative of authority, wisdom, superiority. Then we have magnitude, magnificent, magniloquent, to express greatness in position, in action and in speech. With the termination slightly changed the same words become majesty, implying dominion, and again, we have magisrate, anything that is magisterial which again has been simplified into Master, and finally by the process of word evolution has become plain Mister. But the Latin is only a transmitter of words. We can equally follow up the historical development of this root until we reach the Zend where we find it doing duty as the name for the whole priestly caste. The magi were renowned all over the world for their wisdom and skill in occultism and no doubt our word magic is mostly indebted to that source for its present existence and meaning. That we need not pause even here for back of the Zend "mag," "looms up the the sanskrit, maha, signifying great." It is thought by good scholars that maha was originally spelled Magha. To be sure, there is in the Sanskrit the word Maga meaning a priest of the Sun, but this was evidently a later borrowing from the Zend which had originally derived its root from its neighbor the Sanskrit. -- Lucifer, Vol. X. p.157 Magic -- The art of divine Magic consists in the ability to perceive the essence of things in the light of nature (astral light), and -- by using the soul-powers of the Spirit -- to produce material things from the unseen universe, and in such operations the Above and the Below must be brought together and made to act harmoniously. -- S.D., II, P.538 (JLM note: in the above quote, we must remember HPB's frequent use of the word "astral" to signify "etheric.") Magic is the second of the four Vidyas, and is the great maha-Vidya in the Tantric writings. It needs the light of the fourth vidya (atma-vidya) thrown in in order to be WHITE magic. -- S.D., I, p.192 From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 5 09:45:58 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:45:58 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607051345.AA12716@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Breathing Exercises (Jerry S.) Hi Jerry -- yesterday you wrote, "Breathing exercises are just devices or techniques. There is no right or wrong way to do it." Really? How do you know this? This goes straight to the matter of "prudence/ danger/psychism/consequences of action," I think. As Maxim pointed out in an earlier post, it is the mental aspect of pranayama which is responsible for the direction of energy and manipulation of substance. Your post would seem to indicate you don't think it's possible to use energy in a wrong way -- is that what you're saying? If not, then breathing exercises are a "technique" to what end? In a later post you wrote, regarding my "damn the torpedos" remark: "Jim, I think you missed the whole point, at least the one that I was trying to make." Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood what somebody here was trying to say. :) But as Chuck pointed out, I think you've taken my comments to be directed at your earlier post, and they were not. Having said that, you went on to make a very valid point about desire/aspiration as a controlling factor in any individual's experience. Finally, you addressed an earlier post of mine in this way, Jim: Pranayama is the science of energy manipulation, and psychism is not the only possible outlet or effect. Jerry: In what way does pranayama manipulate energy (I assume here that you equate energy with prana)? My own experience and study led me to believe that Kundalini Yoga manipulates prana by forcing it up the sushumna nadi and through the chakras. Where does pranayama send prana to? Patanjali never even mentions the nadis or chakras. Actually, there's quite a bit in the Sutras about the chakras; for example, the seven methods of attainment listed in Book I to overcome the Obstacles and Hindrances each correlate to one of the seven centers. Method I: Sutra 33, solar plexus center Method II: Sutra 34, center at the base of the spine -- this is the reference to kundalini "yoga" that you mention Method III:Sutra 35, center between the eyebrows and so on. "Energy follows thought," and pranayama is a way of directing *by conscious action* the flow of energy and, consquently, the use of force. "Where does pranayama send energy to" -- wherever the yogi directs it. Assuming "the Above and Below have been brought together and made to act harmoniously" (see earlier posting on Magic Chuck/2), that is; otherwise, energy travels through habitual paths, generally through the centers below the diaphragm. When the possibility opens to use the higher centers, then the throat center can be used for creative purposes (as one example). EVERYONE manipulates force all the time; it's just that most people don't do it consciously, or very well. That's the point of Raja Yoga -- to effect the integration of the personality with the Soul by the process of occult meditation. Yoga -- in the preceeding definition -- should be the goal of every student who has considered the possibility of Union. How we each go about it results in all the differences of opinion expressed in our particular Society. IMO, that's one of the best things about Theosophy -- no one tells you what you have to believe, except "there is no religion higher than Truth." Jim From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 5 10:01:04 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 10:01:04 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607051401.AA13584@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Maxim) Hi Max -- > From yesterday, >> > >> >In the context of theosophy, the science of prana is very important (see >> >e.g. Rama Prasad's "The Nature's Finer Forces"). On the other hand, one >> >may notice that elaborated breathing exercises are condemned as harmful >> >in all the primary sources that may be broadly called the theosophical >> >tradition: Perhaps not all: have you read Vivekananda's chapter on pranayama in his book RAJA-YOGA, his commentary on the Sutras? > >> >Jim: >> >>I certainly wouldn't >> >> recommend anyone to start serious breathing exercises without personal >> >> instruction from someone experienced. >> >Maxim: >> >I wouldn't recommend anyone to start ANY serious breathing exercises, >> >whether under the expert supervision or without it. >> >> Why so adamant? I thought one of the "core teachings of Theosophy" is that >> there exist people who are not amateurs at this sort of thing? >Suppose we agree that the ultimate goal on the level of our personalities >is to attain union with our higher selves. > So all the physical (both gross physical and subtle physical) means, like >breathing exercises, >are not appropriate anymore. The way of occult study and meditation is harder, >but it seems to be the only regular way for the 5th-race folks--except maybe a >few individuals whose karma it is to develop techniques of healing >for the benefit of the entire humanity, etc. I agree with you on the goal, but it still seems to me that you're being literal on the mental aspects of raja-yoga to the exclusion of all others. Is that right? Vivekanada writes, As I have already stated, pranayama has very little to do with breathing. Prana, manifesting itself as mental power, can only be controlled by mental means. That part of pranayama which attempts to control the physical manifestations of prana by physical means is called physical science, and that part which tries to control the manifestations of prana as mental force, by mental means, is called Raja-yoga. Pranayama would seem to have a part to play in Raja-Yoga, as long as we recognize it for what it is and not merely the action of the lungs. Jim From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 5 14:02:02 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 10:02:02 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Heresy of Separateness Message-Id: <960705140202_74024.3352_BHT36-1@CompuServe.COM> Greetings and may all enjoy true independence of spirit everyday through the knowledge of who we really are. Blavatsky has stated that the only heresy is separateness - that an absolute unity underlies all phenomenon in time. I have been silent on this list for awhile , choosing to go within and let go of old ideas and reactions. During my reading I have come across the idea (shopworn, some might say) that we bring people and situations into our current reality from past lives. That our parents, teachers, spouses, neighbors etc are people we have chosen to incarnate with again in order to settle old debts and do it differently (or the same) this time in order to learn karmic lessons and realize spiritual growth through the sacrifice of ego expectations to a larger Self that includes all small selves. But is it so simple? Past life regressions so often suggest only wishful thinking, We can't have all been Napolean or Jesus, and many who claim it are in speical care facilities. I have suggested before and I think a careful reading of Jung may suggest it also, that we have a connection to all past lives, present lives and future lives - that we are the totality of possible consciousness, but that we are experincing it in the fragmented mode of a single individual made up of 7 (or so) bodies. That we have access to literally everything and every incarnation. The idea that we were recently say a Victorian era Mr. A who is repaying or being repaid by a speciific Victorian era Mr. or Ms. B doesn't ring true if you consider how large the universe would have to be and how long time would have to be to accommodate such massive tits for tats, not ot mention eyes for eyes. Of course the Cosmos is very large and I could be wrong. A million monkeys could write Hamlet, given enough time, I suppose. There must be some type of encryption or compression of significant events ( to borrow a computer term). Thus we keep meeting Mr. B in just about everybody until we get over our cheap selves and do it differently and then we may become Mr. B for someone else who needs the same lesson. Thus we keep the idea of unity intact by playing all the parts at some time making progress in some areas and maybe regressing for a short time in others. I am made painfully aware of this by being forced to look at my own reactions. I have been exposed forcefully to the idea that our "friends and loved ones" in this life ,may actually be our enemies from past lives and that our "enemies" this time, are actually our hidden helpers from past lives that are forcing us to see that part of ourselves that we refuse to deal with ( the Shadow thing). I have had to deal with this particullarly on the level of people who seem to be coming to me for help or with help, but are actually harming me. And those that seem to be attacking me or manipulating me are actually asking for love in a twisted way. Thus it gives new force to the idea of "love your enemies as yourself" because in some way, one's enemies today were one's friends in a past life who now seek repayment for the love one failed to give willingly - and if you throw in the absolute unity idea, we are, were or will be our own enemies at some time or other. Thus we are forced to balance the scales unconciously, when we could be proactive by loving unconditionally all the time ( which seems for me to be almost impossible, but I hope will become easier). The movie DEAD AGAIN plays with this notion in a popular way. I am trying to read Mailer's ANCIENT EVENINGS, but am finding its psuedo-archaic style a hindrance to understanding what he may be getting at. The idea of reincarnation seems to be being redefined, at least in the public's mind. There seems to be an idea out there that we reincarnate on other "globes" and spend time in various lokas or bardos (sleeping, waking, dreaming and death). There is also the idea that some may be "aliens" from evil planets that are sercret controlling things or advanced beings who are guiding evolution. On a personal level I am more and more convinced through personal experience that I am in touch with karmic issues which are very difficult to address directly, but must be lived out. Trully we are in a cycle of necessity. Namaste Keith Price From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 5 16:23:02 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:23:02 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705122301_428067931@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Comments on the Book of Dzyan Daniel, The very idea that the Necronomicon and the Book of Dzyan are one and the same, or even have the same roots, is the most preposterous thing I have ever read. But we must remember that of the making of fools there is no end. Chuck From shaman@primenet.com Fri Jul 5 16:52:11 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:52:11 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607051652.JAA06457@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness/Geographical Energies In-Reply-To: <960705140202_74024.3352_BHT36-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 5, 96 10:05:49 am Content-Type: text Hi y'all.. This is the first time I've ever posted to this list but I do have some questions I think you all can answer. First though, I want to thank Keith Price for his post this morning. I really felt that he was stating a lot of truth...and it was stated so clearly and articulately that I was actually compelled to save the thing. Now...onto a question... Have any of you ever experienced/acted upon a strong draw to a particular geographical area? From a metaphysical point of view, what is the structure of these geographic areas? Do they each have individual "energies" that can draw people to them or even repel people? I am directing this to Keith in a certain respect because he seems to have such a grasp on all this stuff...but I would really like to hear from anyone who has something to say on it. Thanks.... bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com snail: 3661 N. Campbell Ave. #372 Tucson, AZ 85719 From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Fri Jul 5 14:38:59 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:35:59 -3 From: Subject: Unveiled Isis (Jesus&Christ) Message-Id: <295867039@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Jerry Thank you for reprodution of original texts of Unveiled Isis. Commenting book iii chapter 3, (start page 116, final page 145) page 141 HPB talk about meaning of as viewed by HPB. Here HPB interpret in a different meaning the words and . She says that is the FIRST CAUSE, and some rare people like Jesus, Buddha and others, in a process of evolution of knowledge, reached the total union with Christ. HPB also says that Catholics, think that is only another name to , and so catholics reject this concept of evolution towards FIRST CAUSE. Did I understand correctly this passage? As I already said, citing some passages from Catechism, Catholics believe that Christ IS NOT only another name to Jesus. And, the concept of evolution can toward FIRST CAUSE, also be found in Catholicism. The difference here, I think is the role of Jesus. HPB believe that Jesus ALSO run this way towards FIRST CAUSE. Catholics believe that Jesus was EVER the incarnation of FIRST CAUSE, and so, He was not subject to a evolutionary process. Now I will concentrate my attention to this poitn: every man can be TOTALLY united to FIRST CAUSE, in a evolutionary process, that only a few people have success to complete. Enc. Britannica Macropaedia Christianity page 330 "christian mysticism refers to the human being's direct experience or consciousness of ultimate reality, understood as God within the context of christian faith. The essence of mysticism is the sense of some form of contact with the divine or transcendent,frequently understood IN ITS HIGHER FORMS AS INVOLVING UNION WITH GOD". "The mystical aspect of early christianity finds its fullest expression in the letters of Paul and Gospel according to John. For Paul and John mystical experience and aspiration are always for union with Christ. It was Paul's supreme desire to know Christ and to be UNITED with him. The recurring phrase implies personal union, a PARTICIPATION in Christ's death and ressurrection. The Christ with whom Paul is united is not the man Jesus who is known . He has been exalted and glorified, so that he is one with the Spirit." "Christ mysticism finds renewed embodiment in the Gospel acoording to John, particularly in the farewell discourse (chapter 14-16), where Jesus speaks of his impending death and of his return in the Spirit to unite himself with his followers. In the prayer of Jesus in chapter 17 there is a vision of an interpenetrating union of souls in which all who are ONE WITH CHRIST SHARE HIS PERFECT UNION WITH THE FATHER". Here some passages from Gospels and Paul's writings: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/wwsb/ Galatians 2.20 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. John 17.20 20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Rm8.10 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Galatians 3.26 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. The mysticism was developed by many apostolic fathers as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nissa,Pseudo-Dyonisius, Augustine and many others. Abrantes From RIhle@aol.com Fri Jul 5 18:07:49 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:07:49 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960705140748_349639574@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: So, You Want to Do a Real Trick? >>Richard Ihle writes>> >>Now you suggest a very interesting thing--viz., that when Buddhi-manas >>consciousness is used as the "upadhi" for Atma-Buddhi, certain psychic, >>magical, or other "paranormal" attributes which "are inherent" in the latter >>can be carried into and manifest themselves in the former. >Jerry S. writes> >This is exactly what I am suggesting. Yes. Richard Ihle writes> I agree that the matter can be looked at in the way it is described above. There is perhaps another way as well. Using such an alternative, ~Atma-Buddhi~ might be regarded as having no specific content or attributes--just potential. As ~Atma~ (~Purusa~) may be thought of as "Undifferentiated Conciousness," so too, perhaps, can ~Buddhi~ ("Spirit") also be thought as having a Nature (on the ~Prakriti/"Stuff"~ side of things) which is so "rarefied" that it has no differentiation in and of itself. It is a component of (thus in a sense "permeates") all "Cosmic Stuff" (~Prakriti~) more gross than itself. Now, Jerry, we may be the only two people on this planet who are interested in this bit of comparative theosophical phantasmagoria. It has to do with developing an adequate heuristic overview of the Magical Operation, doesn't it? In the first view, which you concurred with, it would necessary that "certain psychic, magical, or other paranormal attributes" be ~inherent~ in the nature of Atma-Buddhi itself. You asked in an earlier post, "What happens when 'improving Self-awareness' results in the awareness that 'psychic, magical, etc. abilites' are inherent within our higher Self? What if 'Self-awareness' and 'abilites' are the same thing?" In the second view, these questions may be answered in this fashion: the attributes/abilities are not inherent, or in any way synonymous with Atma-Buddhi; it is only the ~potential~ for manifestation of the advanced attributes/abilities which comes into being by an individual's approach to Atma-Buddhi by means of utilizing its "upadhi," Buddhi-manas consciousness. Self-awareness and preternatural ability is not the same thing; however, the advanced practice of the latter is not possible without an advanced degree of the former. Perhaps that is all you meant, anyway--that it is just ~the potential~ for more Universal Magical Operations (as opposed to those which merely succeed thanks to the person himself or herself becoming the "custom-designed," "astrally self-whipped" workhorse) which becomes possible in Buddhi-manas consciousness. In short, attaining higher consciousness may not in itself produce any magical events; however, volitionally "doing something while in the context of higher consciousness" may be something else again. What can you volitionally do? Well, for two things, you can talk to yourself, or you can create pictorial imagery. Let us choose the latter, because, based on a previous exchange, this has the greatest chance for the s--- hitting the fan between us. My own view is that within the psychogenetic context it is a mistake to try to get too sophisticated in trying to define ~kama, kama-manas, manas, and Buddhi-manas~. To me, it is useful merely to think of ~kama~ as desire and that it is normally "attached" to an inner picture of some sort. I know that you define ~manas~ as "image-maker"; unfortunately, however, I cannot agree. To me, ~manas~ is "verbal thought"--i.e, words or other symbols used in mental process. Thus, ~kama-manas~ is thought tainted by like/dislike (desire) in some way; ~manas~ is dispassionate mentation; ~Buddhi-manas~ is the "universalized Light of direct apprehension" informing thought. Now, how could such a simplified perspective be helpful in understanding the relationship between pictorial imagery and magical operation? Well, it is clear to me that a person sitting in a chair who suddenly wants ice cream must first get a little inner image of himself or herself getting up and going to the refrigerator. It makes no difference whether the individual is aware of this image or not--it must be first the image, then the action. Now, the reason that all people in the world are not also motivated by this particular person's desire-charged inner image is that it has been created within a momentary context of desire-feeling consciousness--i.e., very heavy toward the "differentiated" side of things. What about an image that is in some "association" with a more "Undifferentiated" state of consciousness like Buddhi-manas? Well, the underlying idea is that the content of the image would not now be "confined" to the individual because it would be at least partially comprised of the rarefied component of manifestation which is universally shared and indivisible. No s--- hitting the fan in all of this, you say? How about this: the inner image ~once formed~ is itself probably not the actual engine for any higher magic. (It could easily be the vehicle for desire, however, as I believe it is with many if not most individuals who think they are "magicians.") The "motive force" as well the "universal component" may only come in that ultra-split-moment before the image ~becomes~ an image. Just as the Buddhi-manas suggests the ultra-split-moment before thought "congeals" into word, so also, perhaps, in the realm of images does the Real Power continue to reside in the Inchoate. . . . Paper covers rock; rock breaks scissors; scissors cuts paper; Buddhic Intentionality conquers all. . . . Anyway, this is what I "suspect," as Jerry Schueler always pleases me by saying. . . . Godspeed, Richard From RIhle@aol.com Fri Jul 5 18:40:27 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:40:27 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960705144020_149502726@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: So, You Want to Do a Real Trick?--Corrected >>Richard Ihle writes>> >>Now you suggest a very interesting thing--viz., that when Buddhi-manas >>consciousness is used as the "upadhi" for Atma-Buddhi, certain psychic, >>magical, or other "paranormal" attributes which "are inherent" in the latter >>can be carried into and manifest themselves in the former. >Jerry S. writes> >This is exactly what I am suggesting. Yes. Richard Ihle writes> I agree that the matter can be looked at in the way it is described above. There is perhaps another way as well. Using such an alternative, ~Atma-Buddhi~ might be regarded as having no specific content or attributes--just potential. As ~Atma~ (~Purusa~) may be thought of as "Undifferentiated Conciousness," so too, perhaps, can ~Buddhi~ ("Spirit") also be thought as having a Nature (on the ~Prakriti/"Stuff"~ side of things) which is so "rarefied" that it has no differentiation in and of itself. It is a component of (thus in a sense "permeates") all "Cosmic Stuff" (~Prakriti~) more gross than itself. Now, Jerry, we may be the only two people on this planet who are interested in this bit of comparative theosophical phantasmagoria. It has to do with developing an adequate heuristic overview of the Magical Operation, doesn't it? In the first view, which you concurred with, it would necessary that "certain psychic, magical, or other paranormal attributes" be ~inherent~ in the nature of Atma-Buddhi itself. You asked in an earlier post, "What happens when 'improving Self-awareness' results in the awareness that 'psychic, magical, etc. abilites' are inherent within our higher Self? What if 'Self-awareness' and 'abilites' are the same thing?" In the second view, these questions may be answered in this fashion: the attributes/abilities are not inherent, or in any way synonymous with Atma-Buddhi; it is only the ~potential~ for manifestation of the advanced attributes/abilities which comes into being by an individual's approach to Atma-Buddhi by means of utilizing its "upadhi," Buddhi-manas consciousness. Self-awareness and preternatural ability is not the same thing; however, the advanced practice of the latter is not possible without an advanced degree of the former. Perhaps that is all you meant, anyway--that it is just ~the potential~ for more Universal Magical Operations (as opposed to those which merely succeed thanks to the person himself or herself becoming the "custom-designed," "astrally self-whipped" workhorse) which becomes possible in Buddhi-manas consciousness. In short, attaining higher consciousness may not in itself produce any magical events; however, volitionally "doing something while in the context of higher consciousness" may be something else again. What can you volitionally do? Well, for two things, you can talk to yourself, or you can create pictorial imagery. Let us choose the latter, because, based on a previous exchange, this has the greatest chance for the s--- hitting the fan between us. My own view is that within the psychogenetic context it is a mistake to try to get too sophisticated in trying to define ~kama, kama-manas, manas, and Buddhi-manas~. To me, it is useful merely to think of ~kama~ as desire and that it is normally "attached" to an inner picture of some sort. I know that you define ~manas~ as "image-maker"; unfortunately, however, I cannot agree. To me, ~manas~ is "verbal thought"--i.e, words or other symbols used in mental process. Thus, ~kama-manas~ is thought tainted by like/dislike (desire) in some way; ~manas~ is dispassionate mentation; ~Buddhi-manas~ is the "universalized Light of direct apprehension" informing thought. Now, how could such a simplified perspective be helpful in understanding the relationship between pictorial imagery and magical operation? Well, it is clear to me that a person sitting in a chair who suddenly wants ice cream must first get a little inner image of himself or herself getting up and going to the refrigerator. It makes no difference whether the individual is aware of this image or not--it must be first the image, then the action. Now, the reason that all people in the world are not also motivated by this particular person's desire-charged inner image is that it has been created within a momentary context of desire-feeling consciousness--i.e., very heavy toward the "differentiated" side of things. What about an image that is in some "association" with a more "Undifferentiated" state of consciousness like Buddhi-manas? Well, the underlying idea is that the content of the image would not now be "confined" to the individual because it would be at least partially comprised of the rarefied component of manifestation which is universally shared and indivisible. No s--- hitting the fan in all of this, you say? How about this: the inner image ~once formed~ is itself probably not the actual engine for any higher magic. (It could easily be the vehicle for desire, however, as I believe it is with many if not most individuals who think they are "magicians.") The "motive force" as well the "universal component" may only come in that ultra-split-moment before the image ~becomes~ an image. Just as the Buddhi-manas suggests the ultra-split-moment before thought "congeals" into word, so also, perhaps, in the realm of images does the Real Power continue to reside in the Inchoate. . . . Paper covers rock; rock breaks scissors; scissors cuts paper; Buddhi-Manas Intentionality conquers all. . . . Anyway, this is what I "suspect," as Jerry Schueler always pleases me by saying. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From blafoun@azstarnet.com Fri Jul 5 20:14:40 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:14:40 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun (by way of blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation)) Message-Id: <199607052014.NAA21947@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" This posting from alt.theosophy is one of the most detailed postings by Mr. D. that I have read of his many postings. Food for thought. Does anyone see any historical fallacies, mistakes, etc.? Daniel > From ">alexis dolgorukii : > Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, > > Subject: THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED. > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 19:21:46 -0700 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On May 8th 1891 Countess Yelena Blavatskaya died, and the movement she > started began to die. On February 17th, 1907 her associate Colonel Henry > Steele Olcott died, and Mrs Annie Besant succeeded in her manipulative drive > to become the supreme leader of THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY (ADYAR). On that > day the theosophical movement went into eclipse and slowly but irretrievably > died. The various Theosophical Societies have been vampires battening off > it's corpse. > > The Theosophical Society became the center for the dispersion and promotion > of the child molester Charles Webster Leadbeater's pathological delusions, > and the vehicle for Annie Besant's personal ambitions. The Theosophical > Society (Adyar) accompanied by it's schismatic namesakes, the United Lodge > of theosophists, and the Point Loma Theosophical Society (now the > Theosophical Society, Pasadena, commenced a process wherein the speculative > philosophy presented by Mme. Blavatskaya were permutated into "revealed > truth" and from that fateful step the process of turning into a "Revealed > Religion" commenced it's long slow progression. But the theosophical > movement which she had hoped to found began to "die on the vine", as it were. > > There have been those in the intervening years who have tried desperately to > get the movement on a track "back to Blavatsky" but it has never really > seemed to work. One of the reasons is that most of these people were totally > dedicated to the Blavatsky represented by the "Secret Doctrine" rather than > the Blavatsky represented by Isis Unveiled". The question one should now as > is this: "What's the difference?" > > The answer to that question is that anything which was published after > Yelena Blavatskaya's death cannot be assumed to have issued from her mind > and pen. Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater were the theosophical > equivalents of Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, they were forgers and thieves of > history! As far as Blavatskaya's writings are concerned: "Isis Unveiled" (in > the 1877facsimile edition published by the Theosophy Company ULT) is her > work and it is just possible that most of the Secret Doctrine, but ONLY in > the 1888 edition which is published in a facsimile of the original by the > Theosophy Company ULT ). The so-called Third Volume of the Secret Doctrine > must be assumed to be entirely invalid and a totally revisionist thing. > > By the way the writer is NOT a member of the ULT, but is a Fellow of The > Theosophical Society in America, and is the fourth Cousin of Yelena Blavatskaya. > > Now, I am quite certain that most of Mme. Blavatskaya's magazine articles > written and published either in her homeland or in her magazine "Lucifer" > are not tampered with (unless is a reissued form). But we may be sure that > anything which was purported to be by Mme.. Blavatskaya which was issued by > the Theosophical society (Adyar), went through the hands of people like > Charles Leadbeater and George Arundale and James Wedgewood, by whom they > were "revised and improved". > > But there's another question too. And that question is far more important > than the many questions concerning Besant, Leadbeater and company, and they > are so because they concern Yelena Blavatskaya herself. The Yelena > Blavatskaya that founded the theosophical movement in New York City in 1875 > was a very different person than the H.P.B. who left New York for India in > 1878 almost immediately after becoming an American Citizen. > Why was she "different" or rather how did that "difference" manifest itself? > > To answer that question we must look at Yelena as she was prior to 1878. > Countess or not, highborn aristocrat or not, Yelena Blavatskaya has been a > rebellious and revolutionary iconoclast all of her life. She was for most of > her life (prior to 1875) an really "up-front" Lesbian, but more important > than that she was an anti-Christian, pro-Democratic revolutionary. "Isis > Unveiled" is an entirely and openly anti-Christian tract!,She was closely > associated with revolutionary movements that were largely directed against > the British Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. She left Russia and > somehow made it into Tibet by way of it's Northern Border which was within a > Russian sphere of influence, what happened there, and where she went from > there we'll never really know because events in her life known to the public > are entirely sporadic. But she made her way to Paris, and the to Egypt, > mostly living and dressing as a male, she survived several murder attempts > (damages from these attempts shortened her life) and in Egypt she was > involved with various Western Occult societies and then went to Italy where > she was Closely associated with Garibaldi, Mazzini, and Cavour. She fought > in the Battle of Mentana as a junior officer of Dragoons (male), then spent > more time in Paris. Then in the years just before 1875 she turned up in > America, playing no small role in the spiritualist movement, which really > fit in to her religious iconoclasm. Then she founded the T.S. This is the > Blavatsky I love and admire. The in the three years between 1875 and 1878 > she suddenly became a doctrinaire Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist. I do believe > we'll never know how this totally agnostic person suddenly became a Guru of > the Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist-Adwaitee Brahmin sect. But she did. > > I am devoted to the theosophical movement as it was founded in 1875 and as > it was derived from Yelena's entire life style and experience before that > time. It was an iconoclastic agnostics dream, a way to expand your mind, > your intelligence and your awareness and grow. Then suddenly the inexorable > slide into religion began and it has now reached its culmination in "Core > Doctrinal Theosophy". > > Is there anyone besides me who'd like to return to the original programme? > > alexis dolgorukii From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 5 22:04:55 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:04:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" In-Reply-To: <199607052014.NAA21947@web.azstarnet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, blafoun wrote: > This posting from alt.theosophy is one of the most > detailed postings by Mr. D. that I have read of his > many postings. Food for thought. Does anyone > see any historical fallacies, mistakes, etc.? > > Daniel > > > From ">alexis dolgorukii : > > Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, > > > > Subject: THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED. > > > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 19:21:46 -0700 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Most people studying theosophy now do it not because of powerful personal magnetism of H.P.B., her unusual integrity or character, or her rebellious spirit--they do it because they are being attracted by ideas published under her name. (One may name lots of people of questionable character who nevertheless have contributed heavily into civilization and culture. It is so obvious that it does not deserve any further consideration.) So what's the fuss about? Yes, the theosophical movement... OK, personal qualities of the movement founders and leaders are essential. But then again, many ordinary theosophists known to me are quietly working--studying original works or core theosophy, trying to implement the idea of brotherhood (e.g. Theosophical Order of Service), or exploring unknown forces of nature and hidden powers of the human being. And they do not care about theosophical politics. This movement is built around ideas, not persons (H.P.B acknowledged that her early emphasis on the personae of the Masters has been a grave mistake), and until it remains relatively decentralized and has a loose hierarchical structure, it will be what it is now--a free coalition of people striving for the Light and helping each other as best as they can. Of course, they are not perfect, and their organization is not perfect, too, but its defects do not seem to be an evidence of sickness unto death, or the death itself. I am even ready to agree with Alex that CWL has been a child molester (although I doubt it); I acknowledge that George Arundale has been a terrible type and possibly a crook (see Lady Emily Lutyens' "Candles in the sun"); etc. So what? My main preoccupation is knowing myself (my Self), not knowing history of the theosophical movement, and H.P.B's writings help me to do so. I do not have any time for TS's dirty linen. Now, back to HPB's books. Of course, they--at least SD--have been heavily edited and corrected. But the most authoritative editions of SD and IU published up to date--those considered a part of Collected Writings (CW)--have been purged of all posthumous changes. Also, the so called 3rd vol. of SD has been disassembled for CW and published as a series of separate essays and esoteric instructions. So it looks like justice is served, isn't it? Unfortunately, Alex, your critique is not constructive, except maybe the last sentence, "Is there anyone besides me who'd like to return to the original programme?" If you mean that you are going to organize a new, better spiritual society along the theosophical lines, whatever its name--I would be among the first to join. If you are going to form a new spiritual party--well, maybe I would keep doing my business of knowing my Self. All of us are the same--cells in the body of a planetary entity, or fingers of the same hand, so we need to somehow find ways to reach mutual understanding and even to learn to love each other. THIS is a top priority for everybody who calls himself/herself a atudent of spirituality, and not that damn and dirty old theosophical stuff. Your brother, Max From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 5 23:35:15 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:35:15 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705193514_231670965@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Magic (Chuck/2) Jim, Thanks for the SD quotes. It has been ages since I read them. You know, of course, that HPB took the astral light material from Eliphas Levi, with whom she was well aquainted during her stay in France before coming to America. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 6 00:05:34 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:05:34 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960705193448_231670934@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/2) Jim, Gad, there are times when I really wish this mail processor let me cut into things like the other ones do. You're right about my little silly sutra line. Sometimes my sense of fun gets away with me and I couldn't resist the alliteration. I have a real problem with things that get practiced for thousands of years. They tend to get just a bit ossified. And there is a significant difference between the problems of driving and the problem of yoga in that the disasters that can come from not driving well are real, obvious and very messy. Now I can be totally wrong. It may be that there disasters with yoga that are equally messy, but I know of no such case, except for a little hyperventilation and someone twisting himself into a position he should be old enough to know better than to try. I would love to see a study of enlightenment. The only problem would be finding enough enlightened people to study and I refuse to be a statistic. :-) The whole mess comes down to the fact that we have no real data to go on. For every rishi who says one thing, we can find another who says the opposite. They may take some digging to find, but they are there. In the end, it is up to the individual to find his own path and that is how I view theosophy, as a process by which the path is found and then lived and there are as many different paths as there are people. Now about the "fear" matter. This whole area is one that people get touchy over. On the one hand, you have those who say "NEVER!" On the other hand, I write books on how to do it. Who is right? Both? Neither? Maybe somewhere in the middle. The difficulty with the NEVER folks is not that they are wrong, as I happen to think they are based on the available evidence, but that very often they get so damnably dogmatic about it that the only way to deal with them is to be equally dogmatic in the opposite direction and have a good screaming match, followed by turning them into toads. (Sorry about that, it's something I've always wanted to say.) In any event, it may be that I have lived long enough to have heard too many scare stories about everything from mastrubation to cholesterol and I am the sort of person who just naturally rejects warnings out of hand. I am a risk taker. And I have found that a damned good way to live. Sure something can go wrong and I might get killed, but what the hell, I'll be back and that cavalier attitude towards life carries over into my spiritual practice as well. It gives me the freedom to pursue things that make angels nervous and the older I get the more I am convinced that the pursuit is perhaps more important than the goal. I don't know if any of this rambling answers your questions, but it was a try. Chuck the Heretic From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 00:26:44 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 20:26:44 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960706002644_76400.1474_HHL66-4@CompuServe.COM> >Suppose we agree that the ultimate goal on the level of our personalities >is to attain union with our higher selves. > So all the physical (both gross physical and subtle physical) means, like >breathing exercises, >are not appropriate anymore. The way of occult study and meditation is harder, >but it seems to be the only regular way for the 5th-race folks--except maybe a >few individuals whose karma it is to develop techniques of healing >for the benefit of the entire humanity, etc. Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. The whole intent of breathing execises and prananyama is to silence the lower self, both body and mind. When the body stops breathing and the mind stops thinking, then the union with our higher Self will be obviously apparent by direct experience. I agree that you don't have to sit in a lotus position or any other position, or eat special foods, and all of that stuff. This is where the 5th Race stuff comes into play. But you will never find union with the Self until you silence the body and personality in something other than death. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 00:26:40 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 20:26:40 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960706002639_76400.1474_HHL66-2@CompuServe.COM> Jim: >Really? How do you know this? This goes straight to the matter of >"prudence/ danger/psychism/consequences of action," I think. How do I know it? How else can you explain why certain breathing techniques work with some folks and not with others? It is a fact that what works for one person may not work for another (otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing). > As Maxim >pointed out in an earlier post, it is the mental aspect of pranayama which >is responsible for the direction of energy and manipulation of substance. >Your post would seem to indicate you don't think it's possible to use energy >in a wrong way -- is that what you're saying? If not, then breathing >exercises are a "technique" to what end? The "end" is the goal of yoga--union of the self with the Self. My own yoga experiences tell me that you are not going to direct prana around your body just mentally. Have you done this? It also requires physical movement, including breathing. At least it does for me. >Actually, there's quite a bit in the Sutras about the chakras; for example, >the seven methods of attainment listed in Book I to overcome the Obstacles >and Hindrances each correlate to one of the seven centers. >Method I: Sutra 33, solar plexus center >Method II: Sutra 34, center at the base of the spine -- this is the >reference to kundalini "yoga" that you mention >Method III:Sutra 35, center between the eyebrows >and so on. Jim, I personally have no problem with this. But you will catch a lot of flames from others if you are suggesting that Kundalini Yoga is ok because it is part of Raja Yoga. Core theosophists have condoned Raja Yoga (mainly because HPB did) but not Kundalini Yoga, which is greatly feared. Sending energy to activate the chakras is Kundalini Yoga, and not normally considered part of Raja Yoga. Most theosophists (I am an exception) would prefer to wait until the chakras activate themselves, naturally. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 00:26:51 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 20:26:51 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: So, You Want to Do a Real Trick?--Corrected Message-Id: <960706002650_76400.1474_HHL66-5@CompuServe.COM> Responses to Richard I: >Using such an alternative, ~Atma-Buddhi~ might be regarded as having no >specific content or attributes--just potential. From the viewpoint of material manifestation, Atma-Buddhi is indeed "just" potential. This is somewhat like looking at E=mc(2) and viewing energy as potential matter. IOW, it is a valid alternative. > As ~Atma~ (~Purusa~) may be >thought of as "Undifferentiated Conciousness," so too, perhaps, can ~Buddhi~ >("Spirit") also be thought as having a Nature (on the ~Prakriti/"Stuff"~ side >of things) which is so "rarefied" that it has no differentiation in and of >itself. It is a component of (thus in a sense "permeates") all "Cosmic >Stuff" (~Prakriti~) more gross than itself. Yes. This equates exactly to my "I" and "Not I" immediately after their split into dualism. The unified I-Not-I Monad equates to Paratman. >Now, Jerry, we may be the only two people on this planet who are interested >in this bit of comparative theosophical phantasmagoria. It has to do with >developing an adequate heuristic overview of the Magical Operation, doesn't >it? You may be right about we being the only interested people. Yes, is does have to do with magic, and I detailed this whole process in my ENOCHIAN PHYSICS, which, after all, is a book on how magic works. I admit that I borrowed heavily (some critics suggest too heavily) on Theosophy. >In the first view, which you concurred with, it would necessary that "certain >psychic, magical, or other paranormal attributes" be ~inherent~ in the nature >of Atma-Buddhi itself. Yes, but this statement requires us to define "magical attributes." Finding gold, or fame, or a great sex partner, or the winning lottery number are all examples of abilities that you will *not* find inherent in Atma-Buddhi. Each cosmic plane downward/outward from divinity leads deeper into space, time, and form. The physical is the lowest, and the farthest from Truth. By this kind of argument, it can be logically deducted that the astral plane is truer than the physical simply because it is closer to divinity. I believe that this conclusion is a valid one. From a Jungian perspective, for example, we lose our persona on the astral plane, and thus our actions are more authentic in dreams than they are in the waking state. Carried further, it is logical to assume that the higher planes are less false, more open and honest, than the lower. Time and space are not as constrictive. Thus, one characteristic of Atma-Buddhi is its ability to move through spacetime without the constrictions or limitations that we must live with on the lower planes. So, the past and future lie open to an Atma-Buddhic consciousness. This is one example of its inherent magical abilities. When we shift our consciousness to the Atma-Buddhi (spiritual) level, then such magical knowledge becomes available to us, if we are able to recall it later. > Self-awareness and preternatural ability is not the same thing; however, the >advanced practice of the latter is not possible without an advanced degree of >the former. Technically, yes. Real magic (defined simply as making changes in accordance with our will) occurs when we shift consciousness to the spiritual level while holding a willed goal in mind. The will serves to give direction to the spaceless and timeless viewpoint that one temporarily acquires at the Atma-Buddhi level. >In short, attaining higher consciousness may not in itself produce any >magical events; however, volitionally "doing something while in the context >of higher consciousness" may be something else again. Exactly, although the Gnosis obtained by the experience is pretty damn magical all by itself. To do magic, and bring about a specific change, the experience must be accompanied by a willed desire to that end. >What can you volitionally do? Well, for two things, you can talk to >yourself, or you can create pictorial imagery. Let us choose the latter, >because, based on a previous exchange, this has the greatest chance for the >s--- hitting the fan between us. Pictorial imagery is best. But this can be accompanied by "talking to yourself" for emphasis. >My own view is that within the psychogenetic context it is a mistake to try >to get too sophisticated in trying to define ~kama, kama-manas, manas, and To me, it is useful merely to think of ~kama~ as desire and >that it is normally "attached" to an inner picture of some sort. I know that >you define ~manas~ as "image-maker"; unfortunately, however, I cannot agree. > To me, ~manas~ is "verbal thought"--i.e, words or other symbols used in >mental process. Thus, ~kama-manas~ is thought tainted by like/dislike >(desire) in some way; ~manas~ is dispassionate mentation; ~Buddhi-manas~ is >the "universalized Light of direct apprehension" informing thought. To me kama is emotion. I see desire as somewhat higher (kama is astral plane, while desire is causal plane--but this is all just semantics). Manas must always be split into higher and lower. I agree that lower manas is verbal thought. Higher manas is the image maker. Kama-manas is cognition tainted by affect or emotion. Desire is not always a bad thing -- e.g., the desire to help others, and the desire for self-improvement are good things. Your "universalized Light of direct apprehension" requires an object--what is it being apprehended? My direct apprehension may not be the same as your direct apprehension, although i would suggest that most of the discrepancies lie in the interpretations rather than in the direct experiences. >What about an image that is in some "association" with a more >"Undifferentiated" state of consciousness like Buddhi-manas? Well, the >underlying idea is that the content of the image would not now be "confined" >to the individual because it would be at least partially comprised of the >rarefied component of manifestation which is universally shared and >indivisible. Yes, now we are getting into archetypes of the collective unconscious--the agreements or rules of the game of life during this manvantara. But this collective image and its associated energy is channeled into the individual, directed by will. It must be stepped down, like a transformer. > How about this: the inner >image ~once formed~ is itself probably not the actual engine for any higher >magic. (It could easily be the vehicle for desire, however, as I believe it >is with many if not most individuals who think they are "magicians.") It is the engine in the sense that it, together with the will, serves to direct the energy downward into the desired manifestation or change. The image and will serve as the transformer. The image or symbol is the language of the psyche or atma-buddhi-manas. The archetypes communicate to the ego via symbols and images, automatically in dreams, and consciously in altered states, certainly those bordering on samadhi. For the ego to concentrate on an image, directed by the will, in the face of the Self, reverses the normal process and "primes the pump" so to speak for the desired change. >The "motive force" as well the "universal component" may only image. This is the moment in which the image of the ego becomes the symbol from the Self (Jungian Self or atma- buddhi). These images may not be the same, and the Self's image, coming from an archetype, is numinous or spiritually charged with energy. The magician then directs this energy to bring about the desired change. Jerry S. Member, TI Note: Of course all of this nice theoretical framework leaves out karma. Since I believe in karma, I am reluctant to sit down and practice this kind of magical operation lightly. From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 00:26:37 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 20:26:37 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Magic (Chuck/2) Message-Id: <960706002637_76400.1474_HHL66-1@CompuServe.COM> >(JLM note: in the above quote, we must remember HPB's frequent use of the >word "astral" to signify "etheric.") Astral signifies astral. Etheric is a CWL term to indicate the higher subplanes of the physical plane. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 00:26:43 1996 Date: 05 Jul 96 20:26:43 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness Message-Id: <960706002642_76400.1474_HHL66-3@CompuServe.COM> Keith, nice post. I believe your quote is from Buddha rather than Blavaksky. Another way to look at friends and enemies is through the Jungian idea of psychic projection. We project "friends" and "enemies" onto others based on how we think that they treat us. They are really just people, neither friends nor enemies. People do good and bad things, but are themselves just people, neither good nor bad. > Thus we are forced to balance the scales unconciously, >when we could be proactive by loving unconditionally all the time ( which seems >for me to be almost impossible, but I hope will become easier). It will become easier, but probably never easy. But we have to keep trying. Jerry S. Member, TI From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 6 01:25:01 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:25:01 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960705202759.36676e24@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Breathing Exercises? Hi When I posted my message quoting Ernest Wood's personal episode on breathing exercise, I was just looking for any corroboration. Like all other threads, it took off addressing various issues on Breathing Exercises and I am glad to see the very interesting discussion focusing on the topic. ...ramadoss ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 5 01:13:00 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:13:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: improper touching In-Reply-To: <9607050037.AA06334@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607050037.AA06334@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >So far Alex, Alan and Jerry S. have stated that no procedure or >instruction at all would have been appropriate for CWL to use. >On the other side of the question, no one has so far come forward >to defend CWL's actions. Since the ES pledge requires its >members to step forward and defend those who have been unjustly >attacked, and remain quiet when the statements are true, I must >come to the conclusion that either our ES audience concedes to >the truth of the documentation recently presented here, or they >have decided to break their pledge. > >JHE > And one is also bound to ask the question, "If it was okay for CWL to teach this as valid esoteric/occult teaching to young boys (or anyone else) and noone has, SFAIK, issued any statement to the contrary, is this still accepted and official E.S. teaching approved by the masters?" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:47:30 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:47:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Theosophy International Mime-Version: 1.0 THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination." 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life." THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has 38 members in eight countries. Alan Bain IMPORTANT NOTE: Although TI members are active on the various theosophy mailing lists (theos-l, theos-buds, etc., and which are maintined by John Mead (himself a TI member), none of the theos mailing lists is owned or exclusively reserved for members of Theosophy International, Nor is TI a part of any other theosophical organisation. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:57:22 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:57:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: An Intro to TI Mime-Version: 1.0 AN INTRODUCTION TO THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL A PERSONAL VIEW by ALAN BAIN I have called this a personal view because Theosophy International, by its very nature, does not have a corporate view beyond the commitment of its members to its three objects. At the same time, each member's perception of the significance and interpretation of them will almost certainly vary in some measure or another, partly because of the understanding of the language used, and partly because each of us is likely to have different priorities, and different emphases. I begin, as is natural with the objects themselves. Those sections of what follows which are in quotes are from the Theosophy International statement of intent as it stands at the time of writing. Words or sections contained between asterisks are the Internet equivalent of *italics* in print, and are used for emphasis. "THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the Internet community, and expressed thus: "1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color." The original Theosophical Society version of this object used the words "... a nucleus of the Brotherhood of Humanity" and a reference to "caste" which applied at the time to the people of India, but in which country the caste system is now illegal, and so the expression is redundant for the twenty-first century. The *concept* of a "Brotherhood of Humanity" and the spirit which lies within it is as noble now as it was in 1896, a hundred years ago. In direct proportion to the success of the ideal which does not discriminate against a person on grounds of their sex, the word "brotherhood" has lost its former connotation whereby the founders of the theosophical movement men and women alike, would all have understood the term to include both (or all) sexes. The importance of what is to me a spiritual principle inherent in the scheme of things, and which is the essence of the original concept of "brotherhood" lies in the recognition that all life is one, and all life is inter-connected. It is a *fact* in the scheme of things rather than a concept or ideal to be achieved. That does not mean that there is nothing to *be* achieved, far from it. If this view is accurate, the achievement lies firstly in *recognising* this fact, and secondly in putting the implications of it into practice. How this is to be done will vary from individual to individual, and there for now I will leave the matter. The question that does arise from this however, as another member of TI recently remarked, is the validity of seeking to "form a nucleus" - which could be seen as exclusive rather than inclusive, or even elitist. This could well be a matter for further and ongoing discussion. --------------------------------------- "2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination." The founders' second object was less specific, confining itself to encouragement, but lacking a commitment to *engage* in study. It seemed, when formulating the TI statement, that to encourage study without engaging in it could, in theory, lead to a situation where there existed a large number of people busily encouraging others to study, while precious few engaged in study themselves - a charge that has been levelled, with some justification, against the Adyar-based Theosophical Society as it stands today. Where TI has "scientific method" - seeking to indicate a disciplined approach to study - the original wording contented itself with the single word "science" - which in 1875 or 1896 had more value as a term, but what we *now* call "science" is in reality a conglomerate of very many *sciences* some of which bear little or no relation one to another. -------------------------------- "3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life." This is the object which, in its original form, has been most frequently the subject of disapproval. It spoke of "unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in man." Again, the term "man" has lost its nineteenth-century inclusive character, and is seen by more and more people as a direct and *singular* reference to the male sex. To continue using it today would be in direct conflict with the intent of the first object. "Laws" of nature have, during the past century, been shown to be variables, not constants, so that one person's explanation of the "unexplained" will vary from another's explanation of the same observed phenomenon. We even know that some apparent "laws" are directly modified by the fact of their observation! Nonetheless, there are still a great many mysteries, and the need to investigate them remains. As for "powers" latent in "man" - well, we have all seen, by means of one disaster or another, where the obsession to acquire "powers" has led the human race, through two major world wars and the Nazi holocaust, to the insidious, invisible and creeping horror arising from the effects of nuclear energy getting out of control, whether deliberately, as with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or by accident, as with Three Mile Island in the U.S.A. or Chernobyl in the former U.S.S.R. So, in Theosophy International we recognise that there exists "unrealized human potential" and ability, but we - or I - do not wish to see their development used as control mechanisms to make one person bend to another's will. And we include a reminder from the spirit of the first object to the effect that all life is one, by adding the words, "with an underlying respect for all life." "THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. "There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. "We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals." Precisely because of the emphasis on *power* which has become the dominant impulse within the Adyar (India) based Theosophical Society from which other theosophical movements, including this one, owe their origin, and more especially because of the perceived *abuse* of that power, Theosophy International developed a non-hierarchical approach from the very beginning. Where there is no "leader" there can be no "followers" to manipulate. We seek to work through co-operation and consensus, as part of the inter-connectedness of the human family of which we are all members. And while we recognise that we are all brothers and sisters (or sisters and brothers!) within the family, we also recognise that family members do not always agree, and do not have the same needs or desires in life. We have set ourselves a daunting task in more ways than one. If we are to establish a genuine unity, it will be unity in diversity, not unity that depends upon faith in a creed, or allegiance to charismatic leaders. What I personally hope we shall be able to do is the *celebrate* our differences, to find joy in the diversity of human and indeed all life. To end on a personal note, my friend and I have a shelf on the window ledge outside the living room of my top floor apartment where food is placed for the birds. Some of the birds in this part of the world are seagulls, and there is one who, if there is no food ready when he arrives, taps insistently on the window pane until the lack is remedied. We call him Cyril. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has members in eight countries. Alan Bain --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:32:12 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:32:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness In-Reply-To: <960705140202_74024.3352_BHT36-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960705140202_74024.3352_BHT36-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes > >I have suggested before and I think a careful reading of Jung may suggest it >also, that we have a connection to all past lives, present lives and future >lives - that we are the totality of possible consciousness, but that we are >experincing it in the fragmented mode of a single individual made up of 7 (or >so) bodies. That we have access to literally everything and every incarnation. >The idea that we were recently say a Victorian era Mr. A who is repaying or >being repaid by a speciific Victorian era Mr. or Ms. B doesn't ring true if you >consider how large the universe would have to be and how long time would have to >be to accommodate such massive tits for tats, not ot mention eyes for eyes. >Of course the Cosmos is very large and I could be wrong. This is more or less the view I came to some time ago, and so far it is still, for me, the most satisfactory explanation of apparent reoncarnation experience(s). How many bodies we have as single individuals may not be too important though. I take the view that we may have an accessible four bodies, but that these interpenetrate each other, so that whn I look at you, say, my eyes see one person who is actually the outward and visible manifestation of an essential I-dentity existing in four "states" simultaneously. There *is* a case for seven, but it is rather abstract, and does not seem to be capable of direct confirmation, whereas this *is* possible with four. Burble, burble .... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:38:08 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:38:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Etheric In-Reply-To: <960706002637_76400.1474_HHL66-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960706002637_76400.1474_HHL66-1@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> writes >>(JLM note: in the above quote, we must remember HPB's frequent use of the >>word "astral" to signify "etheric.") > Astral signifies astral. Etheric is a CWL term to >indicate the higher subplanes of the physical plane. > > Jerry S. > Member, TI > .. and a very useful term. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From blafoun@azstarnet.com Fri Jul 5 20:14:40 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:14:40 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun (by way of blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation)) Message-Id: <199607052014.NAA21947@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" This posting from alt.theosophy is one of the most detailed postings by Mr. D. that I have read of his many postings. Food for thought. Does anyone see any historical fallacies, mistakes, etc.? Daniel > From ">alexis dolgorukii : > Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, > > Subject: THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED. > Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 19:21:46 -0700 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On May 8th 1891 Countess Yelena Blavatskaya died, and the movement she > started began to die. On February 17th, 1907 her associate Colonel Henry > Steele Olcott died, and Mrs Annie Besant succeeded in her manipulative drive > to become the supreme leader of THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY (ADYAR). On that > day the theosophical movement went into eclipse and slowly but irretrievably > died. The various Theosophical Societies have been vampires battening off > it's corpse. > > The Theosophical Society became the center for the dispersion and promotion > of the child molester Charles Webster Leadbeater's pathological delusions, > and the vehicle for Annie Besant's personal ambitions. The Theosophical > Society (Adyar) accompanied by it's schismatic namesakes, the United Lodge > of theosophists, and the Point Loma Theosophical Society (now the > Theosophical Society, Pasadena, commenced a process wherein the speculative > philosophy presented by Mme. Blavatskaya were permutated into "revealed > truth" and from that fateful step the process of turning into a "Revealed > Religion" commenced it's long slow progression. But the theosophical > movement which she had hoped to found began to "die on the vine", as it were. > > There have been those in the intervening years who have tried desperately to > get the movement on a track "back to Blavatsky" but it has never really > seemed to work. One of the reasons is that most of these people were totally > dedicated to the Blavatsky represented by the "Secret Doctrine" rather than > the Blavatsky represented by Isis Unveiled". The question one should now as > is this: "What's the difference?" > > The answer to that question is that anything which was published after > Yelena Blavatskaya's death cannot be assumed to have issued from her mind > and pen. Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater were the theosophical > equivalents of Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, they were forgers and thieves of > history! As far as Blavatskaya's writings are concerned: "Isis Unveiled" (in > the 1877facsimile edition published by the Theosophy Company ULT) is her > work and it is just possible that most of the Secret Doctrine, but ONLY in > the 1888 edition which is published in a facsimile of the original by the > Theosophy Company ULT ). The so-called Third Volume of the Secret Doctrine > must be assumed to be entirely invalid and a totally revisionist thing. > > By the way the writer is NOT a member of the ULT, but is a Fellow of The > Theosophical Society in America, and is the fourth Cousin of Yelena Blavatskaya. > > Now, I am quite certain that most of Mme. Blavatskaya's magazine articles > written and published either in her homeland or in her magazine "Lucifer" > are not tampered with (unless is a reissued form). But we may be sure that > anything which was purported to be by Mme.. Blavatskaya which was issued by > the Theosophical society (Adyar), went through the hands of people like > Charles Leadbeater and George Arundale and James Wedgewood, by whom they > were "revised and improved". > > But there's another question too. And that question is far more important > than the many questions concerning Besant, Leadbeater and company, and they > are so because they concern Yelena Blavatskaya herself. The Yelena > Blavatskaya that founded the theosophical movement in New York City in 1875 > was a very different person than the H.P.B. who left New York for India in > 1878 almost immediately after becoming an American Citizen. > Why was she "different" or rather how did that "difference" manifest itself? > > To answer that question we must look at Yelena as she was prior to 1878. > Countess or not, highborn aristocrat or not, Yelena Blavatskaya has been a > rebellious and revolutionary iconoclast all of her life. She was for most of > her life (prior to 1875) an really "up-front" Lesbian, but more important > than that she was an anti-Christian, pro-Democratic revolutionary. "Isis > Unveiled" is an entirely and openly anti-Christian tract!,She was closely > associated with revolutionary movements that were largely directed against > the British Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. She left Russia and > somehow made it into Tibet by way of it's Northern Border which was within a > Russian sphere of influence, what happened there, and where she went from > there we'll never really know because events in her life known to the public > are entirely sporadic. But she made her way to Paris, and the to Egypt, > mostly living and dressing as a male, she survived several murder attempts > (damages from these attempts shortened her life) and in Egypt she was > involved with various Western Occult societies and then went to Italy where > she was Closely associated with Garibaldi, Mazzini, and Cavour. She fought > in the Battle of Mentana as a junior officer of Dragoons (male), then spent > more time in Paris. Then in the years just before 1875 she turned up in > America, playing no small role in the spiritualist movement, which really > fit in to her religious iconoclasm. Then she founded the T.S. This is the > Blavatsky I love and admire. The in the three years between 1875 and 1878 > she suddenly became a doctrinaire Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist. I do believe > we'll never know how this totally agnostic person suddenly became a Guru of > the Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist-Adwaitee Brahmin sect. But she did. > > I am devoted to the theosophical movement as it was founded in 1875 and as > it was derived from Yelena's entire life style and experience before that > time. It was an iconoclastic agnostics dream, a way to expand your mind, > your intelligence and your awareness and grow. Then suddenly the inexorable > slide into religion began and it has now reached its culmination in "Core > Doctrinal Theosophy". > > Is there anyone besides me who'd like to return to the original programme? > > alexis dolgorukii From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 01:03:19 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:03:19 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: MARTYN01.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 MARTYN01.TXT This printed document has come to light among the many papers recently found in London, England, and temporarily available to me in Bristol. Its inportance lies in its date and its location (Australia) plus charges made against Wedgwood, together with charges of "compounding a felony" by certain T.S. members. As readers will see from the final line of the document, it was clearly printed and circulated in America, from Washington D.C., yet it supports the claims and evidence gathered bt Tillet in ~The Elder Brother~ that CWL's activities continued when he went to Australia. It is also the prelude to yet another crisis in the T.S. - especially in England - over the connections with the T.S., the Liberal Catholic Church, and Co-freemasonry, which once again caused the loss of large numbers of members. The document as printed follows: ----------------------------------------------- LETTER FROM MR. T.H.MARTYN TO MRS. ANNIE BESANT Note. - The writer of the following letter, Mr. T H. Martyn, of Sydney, Australia, has been a member of the Theosophical Society for thirty years, has recently been President of Sydney Lodge, the largest T.S. lodge in the world, General Secretary of the Australian Section T.S., Corresponding Secretary of the Australian E.S. and a close associate of Mrs. Besant and Mr. Leadbeater. No one person has done as much to build up the Society In that part of the world. Private and Confidential Dear Mrs. Besant: May 20th, 1921. Yours of April 4th asking me to hand over the office of Corres. Sec. E.S. to Mr. Leadbeater duly received. I have carried out your wishes and he is now in charge. Though in your circular to members giving as your reason for this change the high occult rank of Mr. Leadbeater, in your letter to me you indicate that you make the change because questions have arisen in which you and I are on opposite sides. Much as I dislike putting you to any trouble I think I am entitled to ask you why you say this, for I do not know of any differences. You have complained of none, indeed there has been no correspondence (except on formal business) since we met in England and then we seemed to be working and thinking on almost identical lines. I wrote you on March 14th on some difficulties of the T.S. work here but you would hardly have had that letter by April 4th or if you had it I cannot read into it any motive for what you now do. Is it quite fair of you to arrive at such conclusions condemning me on I presume statements of other persons without affording me an opportunity to state my own case? That does not seem quite like the Mrs. Besant I have pictured for the last 30 years. However I am glad enough to be relieved of the E.S. Corresponding Secretaryship, and I could not have held it much longer without a candid exchange of views in any case. Now I want to ask you first one little favour and that is to try and help me in the greatest perplexity of my life. For thirty years I have regarded you as my spiritual leader, my soul's friend and am grateful for all I have gathered by way of help from your writings and your advice but only on one occasion so far as I remember have I sought your counsel because of my own difficulties and that was at our first interview in London in Sept. 1919. I thought then you would help me in my perplexity and began to explain it to you, but you cut me short and we passed on to general topics. Will you dear Mrs. Besant now read with patient sympathy what I have to say - it is all true as to fact - and then see if you can help me to find a solution to my particular problem. You have taught me to endeavor to seek truth, to think truth and to live truth and now after long years of earnest effort its logic pursues me. I cannot evade it. This is what I want to tell you. In 1906 I was in London fighting your cause and Leadbeater's. Police proceedings against the latter were seriously threatened. One of his boys in desperate trouble urged me to try and prevent them being proceeded with and admitting that the only evidence he could give confirmed Leadbeater's immoral practices. The police proceedings did not eventuate. I went away to Africa soon after and on returning I tried to forget what this confession involved, to explain it away: and succeeded. In 1914 Leadbeater came to live with us in Sydney. I took him at his own valuation and yours, regarding him as an Arhat; permitted myself to come sympathetically under his influence and gladly made effective all his plans. As time went on I certainly got many little shocks. He would for instance explain in private that you were deluded about your Indian work, and the belief that it was at the wish of the Hierarchy that you should work for Home Rule. He did not hesitate to hint that your actions in India and advice to Indians were disloyal to the Empire. Mrs. Martyn could confirm this and many other things said in private, that puzzled us, though always everything said in public was loyal and flattering to you. Meanwhile I was personally favoured and I suppose felt flattered. For many years I had followed your E.S. training conscientiously and results had followed. When you gave concrete expression to my experiences I tried to live up to a still higher standard, but later on the casual way in which these overnight ceremonies were regarded after the first occasion or two became very marked. As an instance on a certain date in July 1917 five of us were told we had taken various initiations. No one remembered anything In the morning - some had hardly slept feeling rather excited. I do not remember at any time anyone remembering any real experience or anything of what happened on any of these occasions. All the same I took all that quite seriously. By this time (1917) Mrs. Martyn had become intensely unhappy about C.W.L. in the house. She had seen naked boys in his bed and other facts had come to her knowledge. I refused to sympathize with her views and for my sake she kept her peace and I held things together. Later (1918-19) scarlet fever in the house caused Leadbeater and his boys to move out temporarily and all my persuasions were insufficient to induce Mrs. Martyn to have him back again. She point-blank refused - though again in consideration for my own feelings - she told me nothing of what she knew. I only learned that on my return from America, 1919-20. In 1919 I went to America. Young Van Hook was In New York. He talked freely of C.W L.'s immorality and about faking the "lives" of people. In your reviews of some letters sent you by Raja which reached him from America things which Van Hook says about the "lives" you credit me with - that by the way. Now here is the evidence of two Leadbeater boys (my 1906 experience - I can give you the name if you want it, - and young Van Hook) both subsequent to to the 1906 inquiry and subsequent both to the confessions of all the American boys and to C.W.L.'s admissions at the enquiry of 1906. I have put these pieces of evidences together and add to them the compromising facts of life in my house (I am only touching the fringe of this in this letter) and find staring me in the face the conclusion that Leadbeater is a sex pervert, his mania taking a particular form which I have - though only lately - discovered, is a form well known and quite common in the annals of sex-criminology. There are some I know who think C.W.L. may have brought over old sex weaknesses and still be chosen by the Masters to do certain work for them. I have found comfort in the possibility up to the time of my last interview with you in London. This brings me to 1919 and my visit to London. A week before you sent for me and gave me your message in October 1919 I called on Mrs. St. John. She was in great trouble because the police were taking action (so she told me) against four L.C.C. priests. Wedgwood, King, Farrar and Clark. She wanted to warn Wedgwood in Australia and did not know how to without incriminating herself by compounding a felony. Farrar she told me she had got out of the country and she was sure the police would not find him. King had decided to remain in London and see it out as Farrar was out of the way etc. Mrs. St. John told me that though Wedgwood seemed to be compromised she herself did not believe him to be guilty of the charges. Of course while in London I heard about charges of sodomy with boys being made against Wedgwood (by Major Adams and others) and reports about him had also reached me from Sydney, but what Mrs. St. John told me came as a complete surprise. A week later Graham Pole sent me word to say you wished to see me urgently and I called. You then told me that you wished to communicate with Wedgwood in Sydney but by so doing directly you would be compounding a felony and you gave me the message for Raja that Wedgwood must leave the E.S. and T.S. etc. You explained that he had seriously compromised himself and you felt it your duty to protect the good name of the Society. I happened to think of an E.S. talk you had given on a previous Sunday about black magic and sexual excess and asked you if you were referring to Wedgwood's case in that talk and you said yes, that Krishna, who was very intuitive at times had in a comment suggested the explanation. Now you will see that this went much further than implying that Wedgwood had compromised himself - a good man may do that and be innocent of evil. It meant to me that on your own evidence and that of Krishna, Wedgwood was guilty of sex depravity. Then there cropped up the matter of Wedgwood's initiation. You told me he was not an initiate. I could not be surprised at that, naturally, if the other was true how could he be? The statement prompted me to wonder to what extent you confirmed or otherwise all the many other declarations of Leadbeater about various other people being disciples, initiates etc. My notes (written down immediately after I left you) remind me that I asked you what I was to do with regard to them and of your reply After my interview with you I left London immediately for Australia via America, and for a couple of months was busy readjusting my own ideas about things as well as I could. I found comfort in certain help which I believed my Master (M) gave me. I understood I was to do all I could to support you in a difficult crisis. To me you had committed a distinct breach by discarding blind subservience to Leadbeater's every word. It was easy for me to do this where in view of what I am telling you it would be impossible to accept Leadbeater's infallibility in all things. In America after leaving you certain people came to me and told me they had heard that the truth about Wedgwood was coming out at last and explained that he had in London admitted his trouble to one of them (or both I am not sure); that great efforts were made to help him overcome it; that things went on well for a time, but that later on he dropped back again into his evil ways. I can give you names if you want them. When I reached Sydney Raja accepted the message with evident reluctance, and rather foolishly I repeated bits of your conversation in addition to the directions. The central point with Raja became your denial of Wedgwood's initiation and I soon saw that the breakdown of Wedgwood involved to him nothing short of the collapse of Leadbeater as an Arhat; of the divine authority of the L.C. Church; and of all reliance on the genuineness of reported initiations, discipleships, etc, in which great numbers of people are supposed to have participated. From Raja's viewpoint this must not be permitted at any cost for the sake of the peace of mind of members and of the cause in general and he just became the politician pure and simple scheming to maintain what to me was - on the evidence available - a falsehood; he showed no desire at all to find the truth and follow it. I may have been a little unfair in this conclusion because I afterwards found that Raja is an echo of C.W.L. and that he takes his occultism directly from what the latter says without question. For some time until I could no longer maintain faith without reason; I had done the same so I can understand his attitude up to a certain point. Then followed the cable to you from Raja explaining what your statement - that Wedgwood was not an initiate - involved. He made no reference in the message to the immorality - that was apparently unimportant and you replied accepting Leadbeater's statement about the initiation as decisive and cancelled your instructions. But I will repeat the cables to make this point clear. Sydney Dec.17, 1919. to Besant, Adyar. "Martyn reports you said Wedgwood not initiate. Leadbeater asserts you were present at initiation. Am most anxious members sake there should be no fundamental divergence between you and him on such important occult matter since at same time. . . . and . . . . took second. . . . and . . . . first. Do you mean that since you have no recollection you cannot assert Wedgwood initiate but do not wish to be quoted as saying that he is positively uninitiated." Dec. 22, 20. Bombay. "Brother's statement enough accept fact, cancel message sent." Before Raja's cable was sent I had interviewed Leadbeater alone. He wanted to hear all he could. I told him about the evidence thrust on me in America about Wedgwood having confessed and he said "well we had better get rid of him then." I have often since remembered this incident. If Leadbeater knew Wedgwood to be innocent because he was an initiate why should he have said that? I am telling you the truth without any exaggeration and if this or any other statement is denied to you by. others involved as it might well be that cannot affect my knowledge of its truth. You told me in 1913 at Adyar about the Triangle. C.W.L. has never so far as I know made any reference to this in private or public. You also told me then that you knew C.W.L. to be a very high initiate. Your statement then - always remembered by me - has done much to keep me constant when things have happened in my house that I could not understand. Leadbeater has frequently stated that you permanently cut yourself off from physical brain intercourse with the Masters when you took up the Indian work. Raja has to some extent confirmed this but at our Convention last Easter Leadbeater stated that you and he exchanged notes by physical plane means when anything happened on the other planes affecting the work. He stated then that when the directions about starting a church were given you sent him word and he you, the communications crossing one another or to use his precise words "I sent her (A.B.) that original communication about the Three Activities: but she at the same time took down the points and sent them to me. It was not done on my remembrance at all but on a careful combination of the two." (Convention Number T. in A. May 1921, page 56). Here is a contradiction of the other statement that you had broken the superphysical line of communication and the real facts if known might make things a little easier to understand. As it is I have been forced by mere pressure of circumstances, to certain conclusions particularly in view of your repudiating your own and Krishna's judgment about Wedgwood merely because Leadbeater stated he was initiated in July 1917. 1. That Leadbeater is not always reliable. 2. That you have been relying upon C. W. L. as sole intermediary between the Hierarchy and yourself - for many years. 3. That you have not been kept fully acquainted by Leadbeater with what the Hierarchy is doing. 4. That C.W.L.'s word Is final, and his seership infallible to you. This last is Raja's attitude I know. I never could however make it mine and have always maintained my faith by regarding you as independently aware of everything that the Masters did in connection with the E.S. etc. Like many of the older members I have known how you and others for quite a long time regarded Chakravarti as a Master in the flesh and later had to repudiate him when certain facts indicate the mistake. Naturally one must leave a loophole in one's consciousness for mistakes of this kind being made and that mistake has made no difference to my attitude to you, nor to my appreciation of the splendid gifts you have lavished upon the cause you serve: but all the same the incident has a bearing in the case of Leadbeater. Will you tell me where I have gone wrong - from your point of view. I can with least difficulty regard the solution - already mentioned - that sexual irregularity is a matter of the personality and does not prevent a person being used by the Masters even as Their sole agent. That explanation would leave room for the acceptance of both C.W.L. and Wedgwood. The order regarding the church I should regard seriously if you independently received it but actually I have never resisted that in any way, what I have struggled against is the dumping on the T.S. of a host of priests designated by such addresses as "Father" etc. to the bewilderment of people in and outside our non-sectarian movement. I can see that an "Order" might have been genuinely given which did not necessarily involve a foolish way of carrying it out. I really do want to maintain an open mind on this and every subject (likewise an eager intellect and unveiled spiritual perception) and I am sure you can help me if you will. Will you ? I really do not want to have to think of Leadbeater and Wedgwood as monsters veiling their illicit practices under the cloak of humanitarian Interests and acting with the clever ingenuity and cunning sometimes met with in such cases. That is the viewpoint of lots of people however. The last thing I want is to have to join such critics and I will gladly catch at any straw which offers a reasonable explanation of the facts on other lines. Finally please my dear friend do not be so unjust to me as to believe I want to make trouble between you and Leadbeater, you hint at something of this sort in your Disciple talk. I have no grudge against Leadbeater, nor against Wedgwood, nor against Raja, nor against any person mentioned in this letter, on the other hand I want to believe in them all if facts will permit me. We have been told over and over again that occultism is common sense and that Buddha taught his disciples to believe nothing because He said it. My difficulties summed up seem to arise because I am asked to put all evidence and all reason on one side and believe because someone does say it. So I leave it to you in your wisdom to show me the way out of the tangle and I will be everlastingly grateful to you if you can. It is not easy to go back on the grooves formed by thirty years of thinking and working. Thanking you in anticipation, Yours very sincerely, --------------------------- Copies of the above can be had on request from H.N. Stokes, 1007 Q Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. --------------------------- Scanned and uploaded by Alan Bain, July 6th 1996 --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From alexei@slip.net Sat Jul 6 07:53:13 1996 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 00:53:13 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960706075313.006d5e04@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 07:41 PM 7/5/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >No you never told me the story and my experience with geneoloy is that it is >rather diffictult to get anything accurate that far back unless you're a >merovingian and even there some gaps appear. >someday I must consult a Mormon on that. > >Chuck > >Chuck: Non e difficile por uno Romano! Duilio, il Conte Canu is a member of the oldest extant family in Italy (The Canii), they take precedence over both the Sforzi and the Collonae, next to them the Borhgese's are peasants. The went from Senatore to Comites and from there to conte. It's a family title not a territorial title. Now, I can trace my family back to the Memorializes by ten different lines of descent, but also to Wulf d'Este, Dux Carinthius in the 6th century, and further back still to the Anicii who were one of the founding gens of Rome. (that's 637 B.C.E.) I only have to go back 5 generations (to Francis-Joseph of Hapsburg-Lorraine) and we arrive at the House of Hapsburg-Lorraine and that does it all. alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 6 23:15:01 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:15:01 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960706191500_350747366@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, Are you SURE you're not a closet mormon? I remember the trouble Savannah and I had last summer trying to find out if Oswald Boelke (the man who taught Von Richtofen) was really her great-grandfather. It was actually very strange. A friend of hers called her and said that some local Germanophiles had discovered that and she called me and asked if I had ever heard of him. I told her that I not only knew who he was, I had videotape footage of old WWI material with him on it. Then came finding the proof and it was not easy. We had to dig all over hell and here was a situation of only a couple of generations, and a famous person to boot. Chuck From jmeier@microfone.net Sat Jul 6 10:56:30 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:56:30 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607061456.AA23788@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Astral/Etheric terms (Jerry) Referencing an earlier post of mine which listed quotations from the SD on magic, Jerry wrote, >>(JLM note: in the above quote, we must remember HPB's frequent use of the >>word "astral" to signify "etheric.") > Astral signifies astral. Etheric is a CWL term to >indicate the higher subplanes of the physical plane. > Jerry S. Are you sure about that? I've always thought two of the biggest problems in reading HPB were 1) the blinds, and 2) the often confusing use of the word astral to refer to "that CWL term which indicates the higher subplanes of the physical plane." We can toss quotes back and forth, but I thought it best to first make sure I'm understanding correctly your position that HPB did not use the word astral interchangeably with etheric in this particular instance, specifically, or in any general context of her writings. Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 6 15:37:40 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:37:40 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960706113739_570939015@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness Alan, That's all I need! Seven bodies and all of them with kidney stones! Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 6 15:36:11 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:36:11 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960706113610_570939063@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy International Alan, I am told that soon my web page can expect at least two thousand hits a week. If half of them are interested in theosophy, and usually people who hear of me get a little curious about it if only to wonder how they let me in the door, the TI page is going to become very busy. We better get to work creating goodies for the visitors. Chuck the Heretic From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 18:38:52 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 14:38:52 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960706183852_76400.1474_HHL62-1@CompuServe.COM> >Jerry, >And all I wanted to do was get laid. > >Chuck the Heretic Chuck, its all in the breathing. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 18:38:55 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 14:38:55 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960706183854_76400.1474_HHL62-2@CompuServe.COM> >Jerry, >I'm the one who says "damn the torpedos!" > >Chuck the Heretic But I recall saying it myself a month or so back!! Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 19:08:44 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 15:08:44 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness Message-Id: <960706190844_76400.1474_HHL36-3@CompuServe.COM> >That's all I need! Seven bodies and all of them with kidney stones! Well Chuck, they say that the physical is but the expression of the higher bodies... Of course, this means that there is arthritis on all of mine!!! Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 19:08:42 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 15:08:42 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Etheric Message-Id: <960706190842_76400.1474_HHL36-1@CompuServe.COM> Alan on the word etheric: >.. and a very useful term. Yes, I use it in Enochian Magic for the region of the Watchtower of Earth. Jerry S. From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 19:08:43 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 15:08:43 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Astral/Etheric terms (Jim) Message-Id: <960706190843_76400.1474_HHL36-2@CompuServe.COM> >Are you sure about that? I've always thought two of the biggest problems in >reading HPB were 1) the blinds, and 2) the often confusing use of the word >astral to refer to "that CWL term which indicates the higher subplanes of >the physical plane." Yes. G de Purucker says that HPB's "astral" or "astral light" refers to the second cosmic plane (the one adjacent to the physical) which is typically called the astral plane. As far as I know, the name of astral plane for the second cosmic plane is used alike by all of the early theosophical writers. Astral light was a generic term for the astral, mental, and causal planes (in the same way as the Egyptian Tuat or Dwat) until HPB and Theosophy began using it for the second plane only. I don't recall HPB using the term etheric plane at all. That name came from the ether that was supposed to fill the solar system, and was used a lot in neo-theosophy. Astral and etheric are not interchangable words as they name different regions of the Magical Universe. Jerry S. Member TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 19:08:46 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 15:08:46 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Enochian Physics Message-Id: <960706190846_76400.1474_HHL36-4@CompuServe.COM> Yes, I am the author of several Enochian Magic books (my newest is due out this month) all from Llewellyn. Also one on Egyptian Magic. I don't mind questions at all. I also don't mind posting them on theos-l, unless you are more comfortable this way. Jerry S. From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 6 19:20:57 1996 Date: 06 Jul 96 15:20:57 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Geographic Areas-Power Points Message-Id: <960706192057_74024.3352_BHT196-1@CompuServe.COM> Responding to: Now...onto a question... Have any of you ever experienced/acted upon a strong draw to a particular geographical area? From a metaphysical point of view, what is the structure of these geographic areas? Do they each have individual "energies" that can draw people to them or even repel people? Keith: This is a complete lifetime concern for some. There is the whole idea of power points - THE QUEST (TSA's magazine) has an article about a group that goes around to these supposed power centers of spiritual energy, meditate and then write about it. Of course the pyramids at Giza and other ancient sites like Stonhenge and Easter Island are favorites. Geoffrey Hodgson spent a lot of time looking at faries in various sylvan settings. Astrology also has a branch called astro-cartography that supposedly can tell a person the best time to make a move and whether an area will benefit an individual. Personally, I have been vary restricted in my ability to travel. I live in Houston, Tx. which is flat, humid, polluted and really a drag. But I can't seem to get away. I love Austin. It has a very high spiritual energy and natural beauty. Many artists and writers live there as well as the energy of the University of Texas (whatever that might be :)). I live quite by accident (?) in a neighborhood that keeps bringing back people into my life in a very peculiar way. I live close to someone from work who just happens to be one of the past life issues I alluded to. Also a former president of our local theosophical lodge lived next door and I didn't know he was interested in theosophy until years later. Those knowing the small percentage of the population involved in a thesophical organzations and the chance of living next to one, it isprobably smaller than the chance of winning the lottery. Thus it seems that karmic law (aka HIGHER SELF) is holding me in Houston until I learn the necessary lessons, damn it :) Which brings me to an idea implicit in my post which I will now state directly - people in theosphical organizations are being brought together by powerful past life issues. It isn't easy to get connected to occult ideas although it is becoming vastly easier, so that the esoteric has become exoteric. Anyway, the ideas may be that we are learning to share ideas in a new way, because we were inhibited or possibly even selfish in conveying spiritual ideas in past lives. This is only a thought. Has anyone every suspected that might have an enemy among all those good vibrations and that the supposed newcomer to theosophy may be really the more advanced being from another life coming to teach (without being able to quote the sanskrit, of course). Namaste Keith Price From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 6 22:38:36 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:38:36 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607062238.PAA01099@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Geographic Areas-Power Points In-Reply-To: <960706192057_74024.3352_BHT196-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 6, 96 03:24:10 pm Content-Type: text Hi Keith.... Thanks for responding. I have a few more comments and questions. This is all very interesting. I live in what some consider to be a highly spiritual area myself. Tucson, Arizona. It's somewhat invisible to me in that regard...but it does have good, clean energy. > write about it. Of course the pyramids at Giza and other ancient sites like > Stonhenge and Easter Island are favorites. Oh, yes. Along with more local places like Sedona and Santa Fe. > Geoffrey Hodgson spent a lot of time > looking at faries in various sylvan settings. Faeries? Like the "little people" in Iceland, you mean? > Astrology also has a branch called astro-cartography that supposedly can tell a > person the best time to make a move and whether an area will benefit an > individual. Yes. That is exactly what I am curious about. I have this theory which may be totally off the wall but it feels real to me. I wonder if there is actually something on "the other side" in terms of guides for particular areas. The purpose of the existence of Tucson would be different, iow, than the reasons for the existence of, say, Baltimore, Maryland. People will be drawn to a particular place because that place is the correct and compatible energy for that person. I also agree with you that sometimes there is a karmic connection of some kind. I happen to carry the name of a major eastern port city...and I am by default connected to the place. In meditation, I pick up Baltimore's energy. It's really weird. (and, no, I don't do drugs... :-) It actually interferes with my meditation on occasion. At first, I thought I was crazy so I got into my old Volkswagen Rabbit, headed out I-40 and went to Baltimore. Sure enough. It was the *very same* energy. It is experiences like that which prompt my question about geographic areas and their energies. > Personally, I have been vary restricted in my ability to travel. I live in > Houston, Tx. which is flat, humid, polluted and really a drag. But I can't seem > to get away. Why is that, do you think? Is there something in the energy of Houston that keeps you there? There is someone there that you need to make contact with for one of two reasons: you either need to learn something or you need to pay a debt? > I love Austin. It has a very high spiritual energy and natural > beauty. Many artists and writers live there as well as the energy of the > University of Texas (whatever that might be :)). Yes. Austin is wonderful. > of the population involved in a thesophical organzations and the chance of > living next to one, it isprobably smaller than the chance of winning the > lottery. I would think so! > Thus it seems that karmic law (aka HIGHER SELF) is holding me in Houston until I > learn the necessary lessons, damn it :) Isn't there a way you can discover what those lessons are though? There must be some way you can find out. Have you meditated on it? > becoming vastly easier, so that the esoteric has become exoteric. Anyway, the > ideas may be that we are learning to share ideas in a new way, because we were > inhibited or possibly even selfish in conveying spiritual ideas in past lives. > This is only a thought. With all respect, I don't think that is the total answer. It occurs to me that with the coming of the "new age" (I am really reticent about that term), many people are searching for answers. And we draw to us and create what we need to find those answers. > Has anyone ever suspected that might have an enemy > among all those good vibrations and that the supposed newcomer > to theosophy may > be really the more advanced being from another life coming to teach (without > being able to quote the sanskrit, of course). I think we all teach each other and learn from each other. I do firmly believe though that we will draw the teachers we need. I also believe there are advanced beings, entities and perhaps even advanced life forms from other galaxies (ala the Pleiadians) that are available for teaching. Everything is there. We just need to be open to it. When something is a karmic connection, I believe that it is so powerful that we can't avoid seeing it. I had that experience in 1994 when I drew someone into my life who stalked me, harrassed me and ultimately tried to kill me. I don't think those things are random. Sure enough, I was told by a psychic advisor that I had karma with that person, was told what to do to pay the debt and release it. I did that and it worked. It turns out that I drew that to me because in a previous life, I didn't defend what was right. I had just gone along with something although I *knew* it was wrong because I didn't want to create conflict. I don't know if that will be a clue for you or not. I am still thinking about why you might be stuck in Houston. I had to travel 2500 miles to create that situation in 1994....but it had to be done before I could be released from it. I would like to know what your situation is in Houston. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 7 03:24:57 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:24:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises (Maxim) In-Reply-To: <199607051401.AA13584@vnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Jim Meier wrote: > Hi Max -- > >From yesterday, > > >> > > > I agree with you on the goal, but it still seems to me that you're being > literal on the mental aspects of raja-yoga to the exclusion of all others. > Is that right? > Vivekanada writes, > As I have already stated, pranayama has very little to do with breathing. > Prana, manifesting itself as mental power, can only be controlled by mental > means. That part of pranayama which attempts to control the physical > manifestations of prana by physical means is called physical science, and > that part which tries to control the manifestations of prana as mental force, > by mental means, is called Raja-yoga. > > Pranayama would seem to have a part to play in Raja-Yoga, as long as we > recognize it for what it is and not merely the action of the lungs. > > Jim Jim, My statements were not supposed to be an absolute truth, just a relative one, in the following sense: IF AND ONLY IF one adopts a certain system of values and guiding principles--those attributed to the Masters of Wisdom--then one would better choose definite techniques and reject some others judged inaapropriate. Or, in other words, the goal determines the means (not to be confused with the famous Jesuit maxim, "the goal justifies the means"). What I meant is: (i) only simple breathing exercises are OK for most people at this time, not advanced ones like those described in numerous commercially available books on hatha yoga, e.g. B.K.S.Iyengar's "Light on the Yoga"; (ii) mental control of prana takes precedence over purely physical control; (iii) breathing exercises--as everything else on the Path--are to be performed in the light of the Self, as exemplified by two beautiful books by Rammurti S. Mishra on raja yoga. Your Vivekanada quote is excellent, and I love it, but it lacks a comparative evaluation of mental means and physical means. So let me quote from H.P.Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine" (edited as part of Blavatsky's Collected Writings, pagination should be same as in the first edition; emphasis added): V.1, p.95: "This chapter of Anugita explains <...> Pranayama, or regulation of breath in Yoga practice. This mode, however, WITHOUT THE PREVIOUS ACQUISITION or at least full understanding of the TWO HIGHER SENSES, of which there are seven, as will be shown, PERTAINS RATHER TO THE LOWER YOGA. The Hatha so called WAS AND STILL IS DISCOUNTENANCED BY THE ARHATS. IT IS INJURIOUS TO THE HEALTH AND ALONE CAN NEVER DEVELOP INTA RAJA YOGA." V.1,p.47,footnote: "...this kind of torture and self-maceration is precisely the *lower* form of Yoga, Hatha Yoga..." So, behind a particular issue of breathing exercises for developing the siddhis, raised by Ramadoss, there is a broader and much more important issue of strategy of spiritual development, and we here on this email list are definitely going to return to it again and again as more issues of esoteric practice are being raised. It looks like we have achieved a considerable degree of refinement, and the lack of complete agreement is due to one of two factors: (i) differences of basic postulates--if so no agreement can be reached and sharing the opinions without putting no blame on anyone would suffice, or (ii) unimportant differences in phraseology used--in this case it's better to drop the issue at the point of agreement in principle without any further hairsplitting. I feel Jim and I are in the second category. Thanks Jim for helping me clarify and refine my own position on the issue. Max From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 7 03:52:46 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:52:46 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960706235245_350926250@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness Jerry, We really have to do something about this. What's the use of having all these bodies if they all get the same diseases? Chuck From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 7 00:49:55 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:49:55 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: CANADA.TXT Mime-Version: 1.0 CANADA.TXT This small item is the text of a self-explanatory leaflet. The main heading (Centered, below) is in large bold lettering. ---------------------------------------------------- LEADBEATER SUCCEEDS BLAVATSKY!! Mrs. Besant says Leadbeater and herself are the chosen "successors" of H. P. B., who left "the twain of us to bear personal witness to the truth when she had gone." - Theosophist, XLIII pages 590 and 596, March, 1922. H.P.B. passed away on the eighth of May, 1891. She left behind two councils - one in London, another in America. The second was headed by W. Q. Judge. Mr. Leadbeater was in London. The English Committee was composed of :- Mrs. Besant. Emily Kislingsbury. Alice L. Cleather. G. R. S. Mead. Isabel Cooper-Oakley. W. R. Old Laura M. Cooper. E. T. Sturdy H. A. W. Coryn. Countess Wachtmeister. Archibald Keightley. W. W. Westcott. William Kingsland. Claude F. Wright. Why was not Mr. Leadbeater's name on the list? Why was not the "Arhat" recognized by H.P.B? Was Mr. Leadbeater a member of H.P.B's E.S.? Mrs. Besant says:- "I stand as the chosen head of the Theosophical Society, chosen not only by the Society, but also by its true Founders and their Agents. To those who know anything of Occultism I say, that I stand as the servant of the Hierarchy, obeying Their Will and and doing Their work, as H.P.B., bade me declare." Will Mrs. Besant, who claims to be the successor of H.P.B., give the credentials for that "fact"? Issued by Victoria Lodge T.S. (Canada) May 8th, 1922 Union Bank Bldg., Victoria, B.C. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From alexei@slip.net Sun Jul 7 07:18:37 1996 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:18:37 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960707071837.006cd6a8@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 07:19 PM 7/6/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >Are you SURE you're not a closet mormon? >I remember the trouble Savannah and I had last summer trying to find out if >Oswald Boelke (the man who taught Von Richtofen) was really her >great-grandfather. >It was actually very strange. A friend of hers called her and said that some >local Germanophiles had discovered that and she called me and asked if I had >ever heard of him. I told her that I not only knew who he was, I had >videotape footage of old WWI material with him on it. >Then came finding the proof and it was not easy. We had to dig all over hell >and here was a situation of only a couple of generations, and a famous person >to boot. > >Chuck > >No, I'm not a closet Mormon, but I am a full fledged Herald and a long term geneaologist. In any case there are some families that have to keep track of their pedigrees for dynastic reasons and it makes for careful records. Boelke was "famous", but it would have been far easier to trace back to The Frieherr(Baron) von Richthoven, he was a Prussian Junker and they are total fanatics about their breeding stock. Now John's family is "old American" (pre-revolutionary) and it's a pain to trace because it isn't "Mayflower" or "Cavalier" and most of the middle and lower class people had no idea of their pedigree, we're going to the Mormons eventually because he has a Cousin who's a Mormon and that means the family has already be traced down (and "converted". They charge about 125.00 for a chart. I'm going on alt. theosophy now to see what's up. As of Monday I am going to post a series of three messages on the "Three Objects". I've already done one on the "Motto" but as of last night it hadn't been received. Hope you get on-line soon as it's difficult to be almost the only person currently posting. Although it's obvious that at least Daniel caldwell reads it. talk soon: alex From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 01:15:55 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:15:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960707211554_150743006@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, It is true. Now mother's family was traced ages ago, but they were important and the reason Savannah and I got together in the first place was her mother's family was descended from the Clays (of Henry fame) and so we had snobbery in common. Of course, I did not realize she was a little crazy and she did not expect me to be Attila the Chuck, so pfft. But she was cute. Oh well, Chuck From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Sun Jul 7 05:20:24 1996 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 07:20:24 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <31DF4918.784C@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: maditation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It seams to me that a lot of people on this list are practicing meditation so I have this specific plea that some of you might be able help me with. I would rely like to start to meditate but I dont know how. Im not the member of any theosophical organization or any organization for that mater so I wonder is it even possible to learn to meditate on my own. What are your experiences, are there any specific books you would recommend, any specific material on the NET, is there any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? Thank you in advance for all your answers Ozren From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 7 05:30:44 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:30:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960706002644_76400.1474_HHL66-4@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >Suppose we agree that the ultimate goal on the level of our personalities > >is to attain union with our higher selves. > > > So all the physical (both gross physical and subtle physical) means, like > >breathing exercises, > >are not appropriate anymore. The way of occult study and meditation is harder, > >but it seems to be the only regular way for the 5th-race folks--except maybe a > > >few individuals whose karma it is to develop techniques of healing > >for the benefit of the entire humanity, etc. n> > Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. The whole > intent of breathing execises and prananyama is to silence the lower > self, both body and mind. When the body stops breathing and the > mind stops thinking, then the union with our higher Self will be > obviously apparent by direct experience. I agree that you don't > have to sit in a lotus position or any other position, or eat special > foods, and all of that stuff. This is where the 5th Race stuff comes > into play. But you will never find union with the > Self until you silence the body and personality in something > other than death. > > Jerry S. > Member, TI Sorry about improper choice of words--I went too far--what I meant is that the physical means quickly loose their importance. The path of raja yoga may be structured as follows: 1. physical and mental purification (yama and niyama). After you complete this stage you forget about it, that is you do not keep doing it anymore, like a high school student does not need to refresh elementary math if she/he is doing higher math. 2. preparatory physical (gross physical [body] and subtle physical [ethereal body including prana]) exercises: asana and pranayama, to get gross physical and ethereal bodies reinforced and well balanced. Again, you first do it and then you forget about it--that's what I meant, unlike e.g. kundalini yoga or Taoist yoga. 3. withdrawal of senses as preparation for concentration and meditation: pratyahara. Once again, you master it and you forget about it. 4. mastering basic steps of concentration and meditation: dharana, dhyana, and samadhi. Again, you master it and then you just use your skills. 5. after all of the above is completed, you are an accomplished master of yoga, and you may apply the technique of samyama (dharana-dhyana-samadhi practiced in uninterrupted succession) to whatever you want. The entire 3rd book of Yoga Sutras deals with those applications. For example, by performing samyama over udana or samana (varieties of prana) levitation and other siddhis are achieved (III.40 and III.41). Please notice--by performing samyama, and not by sophisticated breathing exercises like pumping prana (using the breath as a carrier) into the solar plexus in hatha yoga. So you are right saying that "you will never find union with the Self until you silence the body and personality", but silencing the body and personality is not in itself sufficient for the union in raja yoga--it is a preparation for preparation for preparation for the union. Same applies to Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga you quoted from: peace of the mind in his sadhana is again a preparation for bringing down the Shakti, after which a REAL work of transformation begins: opening to the Divine, surrender, ascent to Overmind and the Supramental. Hatha yoga and raja yoga are out of place in Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga: "It will not be necessary for us to do more than regard the spirit of their gradations in passing; for in a synthetic and integral Yoga they take a secondary importance; their aims have indeed to be included, but their methods can either altogether be dispensed with or used only for a preliminary or else a casual assitance." (The Synthesis of Yoga, Part 2, Ch.XXVII. It is to be mentioned that Sri Aurobindo's evaluation of hatha yoga was different from H.P.B.'s: "Hathayoga, also, is a path, though a long, difficult and meticulous movement to the Supreme.") Max From shaman@primenet.com Sun Jul 7 05:37:22 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:37:22 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607070537.WAA23642@primenet.com> Subject: Meditation Techniques In-Reply-To: <31DF4918.784C@kiss.uni-lj.si> from "Ozren Skondric" at Jul 7, 96 01:26:02 am Content-Type: text Hi Ozren... > I would rely like to start to meditate but I dont know > how. I can tell you how I do it...and see if it resonates for you. I use a lot of visualization. The first thing I do is go to my own 'secret garden' which is a place within me that is very private and very beautiful. You create that by making a mental picture of your perfect place. That will be different for everyone. For me, it is a place with waterfalls and meadows -- wildflowers. It's almost entirely geographic that way but I am a very nature-based person. I wander around in that place and try to focus on the inner peace within myself. When I do that, I am more able to make contact with my guides and receive messages. Sometimes things come in that you might not want to deal with....like the thing I wrote about earlier today about getting Baltimore's energy. The thing is that it's equally important to not shove that out because it's coming for a reason. That's where the challenge of meditation comes in. Why am I getting this and what does it mean? > Im not the member of any theosophical organization or any > organization for that mater so I wonder is it even possible to learn to > meditate on my own. Yes. It is. In fact, it is an entirely solitary thing. At least in my experience. > What are your experiences, are there any specific > books you would recommend Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain is a good one to start with. >, any specific material on the NET I believe there is a newsgroup devoted to it. Grep for "meditation" in your .newsrc and it should show up. > any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? Unknown. I was taught by an indivual and have never been a part of any organization. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 7 05:57:50 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: maditation In-Reply-To: <31DF4918.784C@kiss.uni-lj.si> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Ozren Skondric wrote: > are there any specific > books you would recommend, any specific material on the NET, is there > any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? Hello Ozren, welcome to the Theos-L. I do not know anything about any related material on the Web. As a member of the Theosophical Society in America (Adyar), I believe there are no specifically theosophical meditation techniques. Arcane School founded by Alice Bailey offers well structured and rigorous correspondence courses in meditation and other aspects of the Ageless Wisdom. Raja Yoga is a well known, reliable, and respected Eastern system of meditation. My favorite books on Raja Yoga include: 1. Rammurti S. Mishra's "The Fundamentals of Yoga"--a very accessible and sensible handbook by an accomplished master of raja yoga; to be studied in conjunction with his "The Textbook of Yoga Psychology"--a good translation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras including also a readable introduction into the philosophy of Samkhya and Raja Yoga. Another accessible and very well written manual of meditation is: 2. Christmas Humphreys' "Concentration and Meditation"--the author tries to integrate Eastern (Hindu and Buddhist) and Western techniques into a kind of a universal synthesis. Max From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 7 06:12:41 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:12:41 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960707011543.331f35a8@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: maditation At 01:26 AM 7/7/96 -0400, you wrote: >It seams to me that a lot of people on this list are practicing >meditation so I have this specific plea that some of you might be able >help me with. I would rely like to start to meditate but I dont know >how. Im not the member of any theosophical organization or any >organization for that mater so I wonder is it even possible to learn to >meditate on my own. What are your experiences, are there any specific >books you would recommend, any specific material on the NET, is there >any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? > Thank you in advance for all your answers > > Ozren Hi You may get a lot of responses. Firstly, one needs to inquire why one should meditate. What is the objective? Secondly, there are very many definitions of what meditation is. On one extreme some have written about specific step by step approach. One of the leading thinkers/teaches of this century, Jiddu Krishnamurti have discussed a lot about meditation, but did not define what it is and give a step by step approach. This is my 2 cents worth (ie. my thinking ) on this subject. BTW, I do not have any practical experience on meditation, so I can provide any suggestion from personal experience i.e. methods and results achieved. ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From jamesjs@unixg.ubc.ca Sun Jul 7 07:36:09 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:36:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Shannon Subject: Re: maditation In-Reply-To: <31DF4918.784C@kiss.uni-lj.si> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Ozren: The ancient wisdom has always taught that meditation is a means of "dying while living", i.e., learning how to withdraw the consciousness out of the body at will -- just as it is withdrawn involuntarily at death. The process, in both cases is the same -- only with meditation the silver cord is obviously not cut. One who knows how to do this, with practice, loses all fear of "dying" and also awakens to the higher dimensional worlds that exist just above and beyond this one. How to do it? Find a technique that "opens the third eye". The seat of the soul in the body is between and behind the two eyebrows. By concentrated attention at that centre (ajna chakra), the third eye activates and one starts to experience leaving the body at will. This has been done for thousands of years in all the mystery schools, so it has a good track record. Don't bother with any of the lower centers below the third eye. To activate a higher center automatically energizes all those below it. Christ said, "if thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light". The third eye is the key. The goal? To so ascend in consciousness, step by step, so that the need to return again (reincarnate) ceases. The journey? To travel beyond all physical, astral, mental and causal planes -- back to the Source from which we all came. Can it be done? Of course! That's what the game is all about. The book "The Voice of the Silence" has it all laid out, step by step. Just my $.02 ... :) Sincere Regards, James On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Ozren Skondric wrote: > It seams to me that a lot of people on this list are practicing > meditation so I have this specific plea that some of you might be able > help me with. I would rely like to start to meditate but I dont know > how. Im not the member of any theosophical organization or any > organization for that mater so I wonder is it even possible to learn to > meditate on my own. What are your experiences, are there any specific > books you would recommend, any specific material on the NET, is there > any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? > Thank you in advance for all your answers > > Ozren > From jmeier@microfone.net Sun Jul 7 09:11:34 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:11:34 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607071311.AA11843@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: meditation (Ozren) You will get a lot of individual responses to your questions, because there are differences in types of meditation techniques (and goals), and the TS is made up of individuals with diverse opinions on every subject. :) I hope you'll consider joining the TS; if for no other reason, it gives you access to the Wheaton library and literally thousands of books on every conceivable spiritual topic -- all for free. Your questions: 1) Is it possible to learn to meditate on my own? Absolutely. In the final analysis, it's the only way, anyhow. 2) What are your experiences... Here's where you'll get the varied answers; one school of thought is that it isn't really helpful to relate individual experiences, except in a very general context. No one can prove or disprove what is said and besides, the experience is only valid for the individual... with the possible exception of "Is all of this a crock?" and there are thousands of testimonies (and years) that it is not. It won't take all that long for you to come to your own conclusions. 3) .. specific books you would recommend.. Again, you'll get lots of advice. :) ALL meditation starts with concentration, and no type of meditation is possible without it, so my recommendations are a) Concentration, by Ernest Wood and b) Concentration & Meditation, by Christmas Humphreys The first is a small book on developing mind control, which is invaluable. (I wish I had paid more attention to what it said when I first read it -- how's that for individual experience?). The second is more a meditation technique manual, despite the title. Both of these are available from loan from the TSA library, as soon as you sign up. :) 4) ... any specific material on the NET.. More than can be listed, as any search engine will quickly turn up. For an interesting browse, try David's Occult Links at http:ww2.utep/~dgreiner/occult/htm 5).. any specific technique recommended for students of theosophy? Don't believe anyone who answers this question.. :) But the two books listed above are within the boundaries of "orthodox" theosophy. One of the advantages of the Olcott Library is that they will answer your type of questions with specific titles that can be borrowed by mail -- again, for free. Regards, Jim >It seams to me that a lot of people on this list are practicing >meditation so I have this specific plea that some of you might be able >help me with. I would rely like to start to meditate but I dont know >how. Im not the member of any theosophical organization or any >organization for that mater so I wonder is it even possible to learn to >meditate on my own. What are your experiences, are there any specific >books you would recommend, any specific material on the NET, is there >any specific meditation technique recommended for students of theosophy? > Thank you in advance for all your answers > > Ozren > From shaman@primenet.com Sun Jul 7 13:25:09 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 06:25:09 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607071325.GAA14303@primenet.com> Subject: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <199607071311.AA11843@vnet.net> from "Jim Meier" at Jul 7, 96 09:15:23 am Content-Type: text G'mornin' All; You know, I signed up on this list because it sounded cool in the publicly available mailing lists. I do like the majority of what comes over the internet wires into my little elm account here in hotternhell Tucson. Still... I hear mention of "The Theosophical Society" or something like that. I am not a joiner and am not interested in joinging any groups...but would someone give me a brief description of what it is? What do you all mean when you use the term theosophy? /bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 7 16:23:58 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:23:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960707122357_351209207@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Maxim) Max, your post is appreciated. There is a point where it is best that we can agree to disagree and thus avoid becoming terribly disagreeable. Chuck From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 7 16:50:02 1996 Date: 07 Jul 96 12:50:02 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Heresey of Paranoia Message-Id: <960707165002_74024.3352_BHT245-1@CompuServe.COM> Jerry S. wrote concerning my post on the Heresey of Separateness:: . I believe your quote is from Buddha rather than Blavaksky. Another way to look at friends and enemies is through the Jungian idea of psychic projection. We project "friends" and "enemies" onto others based on how we think that they treat us. They are really just people, neither friends nor enemies. People do good and bad things, but are themselves just people, neither good nor bad. Keith: Yes, thanks! That's what I think the new psychology of relationships seems to assert for those that have been exposed to twelve step programs, dyfunctional family therapy and co-dependence issues and breathes there a soul so deep that hasn't been subjected to the good the bad and the psycho babble :)) There are no good and bad actions or emotions, only appropriate and inappropriate, but who decides which is which? You still have to have some standards of ethical actions which turn out to be either the therapists or "common sense". Men are from Mars and women are from Venus and children are from the Moon and occultists are from Uranus (an old pun, right Chuck? :) ). I believe you are right in that we make our own friends and enemies and transform our relationships as we go along and can be both friend and enemy at the same time. But yet there seems to be the special fated relationships, sometimes called coyly "soulmates". Soulmates from hell, sometimes, trust me :)! Astrologically, these may be indicated by synastry, but we all know them when we get them. Everything takes on the aura of "fatal attraction" or father figure or smother mother and all the archetypal/psychological relationship patterns. And whether past life regression gets one in touch with actual past lives or the psychological residue of humanity called by Jung the "collective unconscious" and the "astral light" by ocultists matters little, it can have trans-rational consequences for the individual or society. It can create psychological situations that have a life of their own. Alan responded also with: This is more or less the view I came to some time ago, and so far it is still, for me, the most satisfactory explanation of apparent reoncarnation experience(s). How many bodies we have as single individuals may not be too important though. I take the view that we may have an accessible four bodies, but that these interpenetrate each other, so that whn I look at you, say, my eyes see one person who is actually the outward and visible manifestation of an essential I-dentity existing in four "states" simultaneously. There *is* a case for seven, but it is rather abstract, and does not seem to be capable of direct confirmation, whereas this *is* possible with four. Burble, burble .... Keith: I must admit that I took the idea that "we have enemies (or karmic bankers) coming to us from past lives to collect old debts" a little to seriously. I almost saw in smiles a secret repaciousness. I think the trouble again may be in seeing myself as the center of the karmic drama - MY enemies, MY friends, MY soulmates, MY past life spiritual teacher etc. These leads to, of course, an inflated ego, or possible full blown paranoia. Meditation seems a safer place to work out some of these issues, rather than assuming everyone is a karmic bill collector. Yet I feel I really do carry over a lot of past life issues and am forced to examine my life experiences in the light of karma, magnetically drawn again and again to occult subjects particullary astrology which is rife with this type of thinking. Sometimes I lead with my chin, changing would be friends into enemies and so I didn't mean to suggest that occultists are old enemies or friends, yet we seem to have a similar psychology of needing to get to the bottom of things, going into forbidden territory and possibly getting burned for a certian egotism and selfishness (I speak for myself), yet with a driveness to idealism because something more is desired, even demanded than the simple appearance of things. Namaste Keith Price From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 7 17:33:31 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:33:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <199607071325.GAA14303@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > G'mornin' All; > > I hear mention of "The Theosophical Society" or something > like that. I am not a joiner and am not interested in joinging > any groups...but would someone give me a brief description of > what it is? What do you all mean when you use the term > theosophy? > Shaman, Is it a Saturday late nite joke? Are you crazy? Asking such questions would force everybody on this list to follow in Alexis' footsteps and to drop out furious at everybody else. Looks like dark forces at work... Max From shaman@primenet.com Sun Jul 7 17:55:09 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:55:09 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607071755.KAA11481@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: from "Maxim Osinovsky" at Jul 7, 96 01:36:13 pm Content-Type: text > Is it a Saturday late nite joke? No. Not really. Am I missing something? > Are you crazy? Asking such questions would > force everybody on this list to follow in Alexis' > footsteps and to drop out furious at everybody else. I certainly hope people's minds are broad enough to accept many definitions. I take it then, that you all have to agree on everything? bcs From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Sun Jul 7 18:36:07 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:36:07 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <199607071755.KAA11481@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > Is it a Saturday late nite joke? > No. Not really. Am I missing something? Yes. The fact that what, precisely, theosophy *is* has been the subject of quite extended and often heated discourse on this list. You happened to join the list during a bit of a lull in the conversation, and hence your question probably appeared designed to re-start the debate. > > I certainly hope people's minds are broad enough to accept many > definitions. I take it then, that you all have to agree on > everything? I take it, then, that you haven't seen much of the list - we agree on almost *nothing*. Stay on the list for a few months - long enough to have your most deeply held beliefs questioned to their roots - and we'll see how broad *your* mind is. The official motto of the Theosophical Society is "There is no religion higher than truth" - the unofficial motto is "Theosophy: We dare ya!". Tee hee, -JRC From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 7 18:47:08 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:47:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <199607071755.KAA11481@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi No body needs to agree on anything! That is the beauty of Theosophy. While there are doctrines written by various writers starting from HP Blavatsky, one of the two founders, they are just working hypotheses until such time either you have first hand knowledge either confirming or disputing them or in your heart of hearts you intuitionally feel them to be "true". some one will post a detailed msg. MK Ramadoss On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > Is it a Saturday late nite joke? > > > No. Not really. Am I missing something? > > > > Are you crazy? Asking such questions would > > force everybody on this list to follow in Alexis' > > footsteps and to drop out furious at everybody else. > > > I certainly hope people's minds are broad enough to accept many > definitions. I take it then, that you all have to agree on > everything? > > > > > bcs > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sun Jul 7 20:17:08 1996 Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 09:17:08 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E01B44.19F7@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theosophy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is it a Saturday late nite joke? No. Not really. Am I missing something? > Are you crazy? Asking such questions would > force everybody on this list to follow in Alexis' > footsteps and to drop out furious at everybody else. I certainly hope people's minds are broad enough to accept many definitions. I take it then, that you all have to agree on everything? Please excuse this method of replying but since having just dropped in to test the waters I seem to be on digest somehow. Theosophists do not very often agree on anything which in many cases may stem from the terminology used. People on this list can be very passionate about their particular aspect of Theosophy so arguements occur and we even shout at each other over e-mail if you can imagine such a thing. I think Max may have been 'tongue in cheek' with his reply because the hardest thing is to explain Theosophy in a few words. It all depends which perspective one comes from and I have had persons walk into our library and casually ask what is Theosophy and I sort of cringe inside and try to crank up the thought process to find something to say that makes sense to them. Where to begin? The 3 objects, karma, reincarnation, masters, good library, nice members, wisdom, the organisation, the founders, study group, to name but a few that run throught the mind in great haste. I hope that some of the knowledgeable people on here will respond because then I may have something to say to my inquirers too. Some people are good with arranging their thoughts into written pages so, please something concise but meaningful :-) Bee Brown. bcs From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 01:17:58 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:17:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960707211756_150743182@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.28582.emout14.mail.aol.com.836788676" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28582.emout14.mail.aol.com.836788676 Content-ID: <0_28582_836788676@emout14.mail.aol.com.81141> Content-type: text/plain Shaman, You're gonna get a lot of answers to this one, but this the faq I prepared for alt.theosophy. Chuck the Heretic --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28582.emout14.mail.aol.com.836788676 Content-ID: <0_28582_836788676@emout14.mail.aol.com.81142> Content-type: text/plain; name="THEOFAQ.DOC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable alt.theosophy Frequently Asked Questions =0D alt.theosophy is a totally unmoderated newsgroup dedicated to the free an= d unfettered discussion of matters spiritual. To that end, everyone is i= nvited to participate, now matter what tradition or belief system they co= me from or seek to represent. No one is obligated to agree on anything t= o post here, which is a good thing because Theosophists rarely agree with= each other. =0D 1. What is Theosophy? =0D The word Theosophy is from the Greek, literally divine wisdom. But as mo= st of us are not divine we really have no idea what it is and thus we ten= d to disagree a lot. =0D 2. What is the Theosophical Society? =0D Actually, there are a number of Theosophical Societies. The largest is h= eadquartered at Adyar, Madras, India and has about 35,000 members worldwi= de. It's US headquarters is the Olcott estate in Wheaton, Illinois and i= s usually referred to simply as Olcott. Whenever you see a reference to = Olcott that is clearly not to an individual (Col. Henry Steele Olcott, se= e below) it is probably to the American hq or its much put-upon and under= paid staff. The American Theosophical Society is much smaller and has its hq in Pasad= ena California. The United Lodge of Theosophists is the smallest and no one knows where i= ts headquarters is located because everything about the United Lodge is s= ecret. (Just kidding. If someone from ULT has the address, please post i= t because someone is probably interested.) Theosophy International, mostly internet people with no fixed abode. =0D 3. What are the notorious Three Objects? =0D In a vain attempt to make some sense of the organization, about a hundred= years ago three basic objects for the society were agreed upon. They ar= e as follows: =0D 1.To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without dis= tinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color. =0D 2. To encourage the comparative study of religion, philosophy and science= =2E =0D 3. To investigate unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in ma= n. =0D Now you must understand that theosophists fight about the wording of thes= e objects all the time, but that is the gist of them and they are the onl= y things that one is obligated to assent to in order to join the Adyar Th= eosophical Society, though the others may have different rules. =0D 4. Does the TS have a history? =0D Funny you should ask that. The Theosophical Society was founded by Helen= a Petrovna Blavatsky (Yelena Petrovna Countess Blavatskaya) along with Co= l. Henry Steele Olcott and William Q. Judge in 1875 after meeting on a fa= rm in upstate New York to investigate some mediums. After languishing in= New York for a few years, HPB and the Colonel took ship to India where t= hey were mistaken for Russian spies, annoyed the hell out of the Christia= n Missionaries (Col. Olcott was instrumental in getting them booted out o= f Ceylon) and buying the Adyar estate which is now the TS international H= Q. HPB died in 1891, after writing a massive amount of material, most of = it unreadable, and the Colonel died in 1906, leaving the TS in the hands = of Mrs. Annie Besant, who, with her buddies Bishop Leadbeatter and George= Arundale, totally redid theosophy and tried to promote Krishnamurti as t= he new messiah. Krishnamurti came to his senses in 1929 and quit the mes= siah business to become a teacher of a different variety. The TS slogged= on, with various disputes and splits along the way and continues today. =0D 4. Who are the type of people who become Theosophists? =0D It helps to be three things, interested in things spiritual, slightly cra= zy and incredibly stubborn. People often join the Theosophical Society b= ecause everyone else would throw them out. Every spiritual system imaginable is represented in our ranks, ranging fr= om the somewhat orthodox believers in common religions like Christianity = and Buddhism, to Witches, Magicians, Satanists (we don't like to admit th= at, but we have them) Tree Worshippers, Rock Worshippers and followers of= Jean Huston. If it exists, we have at least one. =0D 5. Who was Madame Blavatsky? Helena Petrovna Blavatsky was a Russian of the lower nobility who after g= etting married at 17 to much, much much older General Blavatsky ran off a= nd joined the circus, among other things. Actually, her life is book mat= erial but basically she travelled all over and after a stint as a very su= ccessful concert pianist in France found her way to America where she too= k up spiritualism. After the founding of the TS she abandoned mediumship= for writing, which she did a lot of. Her principal works are Isis Unvei= led (not Unveiled Isis, that's a cheap porno movie), The Secret Doctrine = and The Key to Theosophy. The date of her death May 8, 1891, is commemor= ated by Theosophists as White Lotus Day and usually a party of some sort = is held in its honor every year. Why we do it that way is a mystery. =0D 6. Who was Col. Henry Steele Olcott? Col. Olcott was a businessman, lawyer, agriculturalist and journalist who= also found time to become involved in politics. He was on the commissio= n that investigated the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and his skill wi= th bureaucracy was most apparent in his manipulation of the British Home = Office when he kicked the missionaries out of Ceylon. He is regarded as = a Buddhist saint for his evangelical views of that religion and his many = works in its support. He was responsible for procuring the diplomatic pa= ssports that he and HPB traveled to India under thus making it impossible= for the British government to kick them out without causing an embarrass= ing incident. In 1891 countries went to war over that sort of thing. =0D 7. Who was William Q. Judge? =0D The forgotten man of the trio, Judge remained behind when HPB and Olcott = went traipsing off to India. He ran the American Section (founded 1886) = until the split between the bulk of that section in 1895 after a dispute = between himself and Mrs. Besant. The break-away groups founded the Ameri= can Theosophical Society and made their HQ in Point Loma, California whic= h was run by Katherine Tingley following the death of Judge in 1896. Her= successor was Gottfried (Guy) de Purucker. =0D 8. What are the Masters? =0D It depends on who you ask. The interpretation ranges from spiritual bein= gs on the astral plane to people who live normal lives and do abnormal th= ings. The most common interpretation is a sort of spiritual bureaucracy = where they have different jobs in running the world. That view is largel= y avoided now because no one really wants to blame them for the mess the = world is in. =0D 9. Who is Radha and why does everyone hate her? =0D Radha is Radha Burnier and not everyone hates her, but sometimes it seems= that way. She is the President of the Theosophical Society, Adyar and a= s such gets into a lot of trouble with some people. =0D 10. Who is John Algeo? =0D John Algeo is the President of the American Section of the Theosophical S= ociety, Adyar and does things that get people mad at him. He is better k= nown as the former head of the English department at the University of Ge= orgia in Athens, GA. His name appears on a bunch of web pages and he did= the study of the word "cowabunga" for the Oxford English Dictionary. =0D 11. Who is this Alex that everyone is afraid of? =0D Well, I don't know about everyone, I'm not afraid of him. Alex is Alexis= Dolgorukii, an artist out of San Francisco and one of the legitimate hei= rs to the throne of the Czar, as he often reminds us when he is in a bad = mood. =0D 12. Who is Uncle Chuckie and does he have an office in the TS. =0D Not if the people who hold office have anything to say about it and he ce= rtainly doesn't want the job. Uncle Chuckie (as his friends and follower= s call him) is the Earthbound Ascended Master Charles Cosimano (and if yo= u believe the ascended master part I have nice bridge for you) and is mos= t notorious for his work in the area of Psionics, a field directly relate= d to the Third Object and the cause of much consternation among the ortho= dox. It was a friend of his that started this newsgroup and thus it is o= n his Karma, but fortunately he has a machine that dumps the karma on oth= er people and gets none of it himself. =0D 13. Who are the other people posting on this newsgroup? =0D I don't know. Ask them. =0D 14. Is there anything else I need to know about the people in the TS? Probably, but my fingers are getting tired. Just ask, someone will have = an opinion about it. =0D 15. Is it true that Theosophists sacrifice and eat babies? =0D Not as an organizational practice, as lots of Theosophists are vegetarian= s, but Chuck says they can be very tasty if served with the right sauce. =0D 16. Then it is not true that you have to be a vegetarian to be a Theosop= hist? =0D Totally untrue. Neither HPB, nor Col. Olcott were vegetarians. =0D 17. Are there any rules to follow in being a theosophist? =0D No. Just assent to the Three Objects and you can interpret them any way = you want to. =0D =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28582.emout14.mail.aol.com.836788676-- From shaman@primenet.com Mon Jul 8 01:37:02 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 18:37:02 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607080137.SAA08232@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <960707211756_150743182@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 7, 96 09:19:57 pm Content-Type: text Great FAQ. Thanks!! That about covers it, I think. I'm pleased that any idea can be presented and discussed. That's what I was looking for. Now -- since the majority of you are far more educated in all of this than I am -- would someone let me know why the hell I am getting strange energy when I meditate? If you can answer *that* one, I owe ya big time! Any offbeat, crazy, insane, snotty, sarcastic, or even legitimate answer would be well appreciated. The first five will make me giggle and the last one will help my meditation. bcs <-- thanking God/Universe/Spirit/Odin/Buddha/Allah and every other diety known to man, woman and child that this boring, long, basically Internet-devoid weekend is coming to an end. -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From alexei@slip.net Mon Jul 8 09:04:37 1996 Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 02:04:37 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960708090437.006e5a44@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 09:21 PM 7/7/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >It is true. Now mother's family was traced ages ago, but they were important >and the reason Savannah and I got together in the first place was her >mother's family was descended from the Clays (of Henry fame) and so we had >snobbery in common. Of course, I did not realize she was a little crazy and >she did not expect me to be Attila the Chuck, so pfft. But she was cute. Oh >well, > >Chuck > >Chuck: My Dad was related to Henry Clay too. Cute is important. I just got a message from someone who had a skin disease called Vetilligo, which causes ugly dead white splotches on skin, we'll he wrote to say thanks cause I'd not only helped get his "head together" but had, in the process, cured the Vetilligo too. Could that be called a "fan letter"? alex From aprioripa@pipeline.com Mon Jul 8 13:49:44 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:49:44 GMT From: aprioripa@pipeline.com Message-Id: <199607081349.NAA17572@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Subject: Re: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" (repost) > The in the three years between 1875 and 1878 >> she suddenly became a doctrinaire Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist. I do believe >> we'll never know how this totally agnostic person suddenly became a Guru of >> the Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist-Adwaitee Brahmin sect. But she did. This is the occurence as HPB re-attained to her identity of Monadic consciousness. The previous personality experiences were naught but recapitulation and largely the karma of humanity at that time (which she sacrificially incarnated through) and not her own expression. Many souls then and today are born through bizarre experiences and circumstances but transmute these to move toward higher realities and thereby help offset some of humanity's difficulties, both by example and sacrifice. Love, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 8 03:56:41 1996 Date: 07 Jul 96 23:56:41 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Heresy of Separateness Message-Id: <960708035641_76400.1474_HHL66-2@CompuServe.COM> Chuck, Good question. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 8 03:56:40 1996 Date: 07 Jul 96 23:56:40 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises Message-Id: <960708035640_76400.1474_HHL66-1@CompuServe.COM> >So you are right saying that "you will never find union with the >Self until you silence the body and personality", but silencing the body >and personality is not in itself sufficient for the union in raja >yoga--it is a preparation for preparation for preparation for the union. Consciousness is always focusing somewhere. Silence the lower self, and it automatically focuses in the higher Self. But without preparation, it may seem only like a blank coma. What is actually discovered, when you do this, is that the union is already done, and has been from the beginning. Jerry S. Member, TI From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 8 04:27:36 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:27:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Theosophy (Bee) In-Reply-To: <31E01B44.19F7@whanganui.ac.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Bee Brown wrote: > please something concise but meaningful :-) Hi Bee: Welcome to the Kafkaesque but addictive world of online theosophy. Here are some bits and pieces for you. WARNING: Not for a general discussion. No response please. Theosophy is one of the existing systems of theoretical and practical spirituality, i.e. it is a system of thought that is based on the belief that beyond the well known material world there is an immaterial world that may be accessed by anyone who would be willing to undertake the necessary training. So theosophy is in the same boat as many, many other systems both religious (Christianity, ...) and not exactly religious (like Southern Buddhism, Raja Yoga or thanspersonal psychology). What makes it different is this: 1. It claims that it reconciles all known religions and spiritual philosophies, so the word 'theosophy' may be loosely translated from Greek as "the Wisdom-Religion.' It is stated that it 'was the universally diffused religion of the ancient and prehistoric world,' has been lost or corrupted since then, and has recently reemerged in its pristine form. 2. It claims that it relies on the living tradition having being preserved and carried through millenia by a community of fully enlightened people, known as adepts or Masters. (Unfortunately, it is in fact what MADE it different in the past. Now one may find on the spiritual supermarket other teachings that claim having same features--e.g. Mark and Elisabeth Prophet's books, Sri Bhagavan Rajneesh's literary output, Donov and Aivanhov's teachings--so that it is not so easy anymore to explain or prove why theosophy is different without going into lengthy discussion.) Theasophical Society has been created to promote and support study and practice of theosophy. Its history is highlighted in Chuck's brilliant FAQs; if you need something meaningful but not necessary cute, you may wish to slightly rehash Chuck's input. Three well-known objectives of T.S. are: 1. to form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood. -- Hmmm... not even in sight... (I hesitate to cite this discussion group as a standard of brotherhood.) 2. to encourage the study of comparative religion, philosophy, and science. -- Again, I hesitate to offer a progress report on this since there is no progress in sight made by theosophists. It looks like theosophists are not known for their contribution into the above areas of study. 3. to investigate unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in human beings. -- Something is being done along these lines, but there is no definitive progress, so it would be difficult to impress a skeptical outsider. Besides that, theosophy--as it exists now--is too heavy on speculation and very weak on practical training. I would even say that specifically theosophical practices hardly exist. So in virtually all respects the theosophical movement has failed to keep its promise. Nevertheless, H.P.Blavatsky has been able to prepare the ground for INDIVIDUAL study and practice of theosophy, and many people who remained faithful to the original ideas have profited from her teachings. So it looks like the only reliable point of entry into theosophy is H.P.B.'s works--not just The Secret Doctrine or Isis Unveiled, but THE ENTIRE CORPUS OF HER WORKS: 1. Collected Writings in 14 vols., including her articles and esoteric instructions, 2. Isis Unveiled (the best edition has been published as a part of Blavattsky's Collected Writings series), 3. The Secret Doctrine (same series), 4. Other works: The Key to Theosophy, From the Caves and Jungles of Hindustan, etc. Other primary sources, perhaps more authoritative than H.P.B.'s writings, include: 1. Mahatma Letters to Sinnett, 2. The Voice of Silence, 3. The light on the Path. Some books of Annie Besant (but not C.W.Leadbeater--God forbid) may serve as a useful INTRODUCTION to theosophy, but they are no substitute for the original works. So my best suggestion is this: explain to anyone curious about theosophy some basic ideas and (unfulfilled) promises of theosophy, and then recommend to try and study the primary sources. After all people spend many years studying such boring subjects as math, so anyone concerned about the meaning of life and such SHOULD put enough time and energy into what's immeasurably more important. Max From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 8 04:26:31 1996 Date: 08 Jul 96 00:26:31 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Fatal Attractions Message-Id: <960708042631_74024.3352_BHT134-1@CompuServe.COM> BCS wrote: When something is a karmic connection, I believe that it is so powerful that we can't avoid seeing it. I had that experience in 1994 when I drew someone into my life who stalked me, harrassed me and ultimately tried to kill me. I don't think those things are random. Sure enough, I was told by a psychic advisor that I had karma with that person, was told what to do to pay the debt and release it. I did that and it worked. It turns out that I drew that to me because in a previous life, I didn't defend what was right. I had just gone along with something although I *knew* it was wrong because I didn't want to create conflict. I don't know if that will be a clue for you or not. I am still thinking about why you might be stuck in Houston. I had to travel 2500 miles to create that situation in 1994....but it had to be done before I could be released from it. I would like to know what your situation is in Houston. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney Keith: This is too spooky. Yes, I feel I am getting sucked into some kind of sick situation and the fact that I am fascinated by it an not only repelled says that I feel the need to deal with it rather than run this time. I don't know the detail of your situation and am not trying to infer that it is similiar to mine, except that large social issues may be at work as well as personal karma. It may have to do with someone who is seeking spiritual help, but these kind of things rarely get to the higher atimic-buddhi planes of spiritual growth and tend to sink to the lower kama-manas and desire-revenge astral planes to stretch the jargon a little. I think it has too do with the deep issue of men asking for love, nuturing ,acceptance, and deep spiritual connection from each other which is totally debased in our society. The only acceptable outlets are competitve and aggressive sportsmanship (including hunting) and buddy-buddy drinking and whore chasing. The mens movement with all the shamanic drumming and sweat lodging is trying to resurrect male bonding from it degraded state and attempt to reframe it a native American spirituality. Your nkickname suggests that you may be interested in shamanism. Unfortunately it may take many generations of "male" evolution to free ourselves from the shame associated with men asking men for spiritual help on any other but an intellectual basis. Namaste Keith Price From shaman@primenet.com Mon Jul 8 04:48:32 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:48:32 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607080448.VAA14763@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Fatal Attractions In-Reply-To: <960708042631_74024.3352_BHT134-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 8, 96 00:29:34 am Content-Type: text > This is too spooky. Yes, I feel I am getting sucked into some kind of sick > situation and the fact that I am fascinated by it an not only repelled says that > I feel the need to deal with it rather than run this time. That sounds best actually. The reason I say that is if you run when it isn't appropriate to run (ex: you don't want to deal with the conflict), it will just come up in your life in a way that is far less avoidable. In my situation, I had had several opportunities in my lifetime to stand up for things that are right, defend myself when appropriate, learn the lessons I needed to learn before the attempted homicide ever occurred. Despite all of those opportunities, I still chose to run... because I didn't want to create conflict. I'd actually brought the need to learn that from a previous incarnation. It just kept on presenting itself in this life, over and over, until a situation arose where I could no longer avoid it. My metaphysical teacher tells me that if we don't learn the first time, that the situations will increase in severity...until we either learn it or die. So...if this situation you are approaching now is one you can complete without actual physical danger to yourself, I would say "go for it." > except that large social issues may be at work as well as personal karma. I think I can kind of see where you are going with this...in terms of my stalker having been a male who was taught that getting help or expressing himself more appropriately wasn't really available to him. That brings the larger social issue of men's oppression (which is just as real as the oppression of we women) that prevented him from being able to take the correct steps to "fix" himself. > It > may have to do with someone who is seeking spiritual help He was afraid of abandonment. He as much as said so. >, but these kind of > things rarely get to the higher atimic-buddhi planes of spiritual growth and > tend to sink to the lower kama-manas and desire-revenge astral planes to stretch > the jargon a little. Could you explain this in plain English? :-) I'm not sure I entirely understand you...and I really want to. > I think it has too do with the deep issue of men asking > for love, nuturing ,acceptance, and deep spiritual connection from each other > which is totally debased in our society. You are exactly right about that. > The mens movement with all the shamanic drumming > and sweat lodging is trying to resurrect male bonding from it degraded state and > attempt to reframe it a native American spirituality. But it will only work for some men. Don't you agree? > Your nkickname suggests > that you may be interested in shamanism. Yes. I am. Not exclusively though. > Unfortunately it may take many > generations of "male" evolution to free ourselves from the shame associated > with men asking men for spiritual help on any other but an intellectual basis. Right here, I get the impression that you might be thinking that I'm a man. I am not. I know the name is a bit ambiguous. That is what happens when people name their kids after cities. It's an odd practice and can cause some misunderstandings. Nope. I'm female. Still, your point counts just the same. It is really up to men to take that situation in hand and *start* asking each other for help -- outside a professional context. "Society" be damned. Sometimes we just have to start *doing*. I remember an old thing I learned in est 20 years ago. Do, be, have. It works in that order. If you get to a point where you are comfortable to discuss the situation that is keeping you in Houston, that attracts and repels you, I am interested in hearing. Thanks for your response. I always like what you have to say. namaste, //balto -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 8 05:05:51 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:05:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: RE: Breathing Exercises In-Reply-To: <960708035640_76400.1474_HHL66-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >So you are right saying that "you will never find union with the > >Self until you silence the body and personality", but silencing the body > >and personality is not in itself sufficient for the union in raja > >yoga--it is a preparation for preparation for preparation for the union. > > Consciousness is always focusing somewhere. Silence > the lower self, and it automatically focuses in the higher Self. But > without preparation, it may seem only like a blank coma. What > is actually discovered, when you do this, is that the union is already > done, and has been from the beginning. If such is your personal experience, I acknowledge it and respect it. However, I am not happy about your terminology. This may be my semantic bias, but I am used to discriminate between consciousness and its target. In phenomenological philosophy--yes, consciousness ALWAYS has a target, by their definition of consciousness. But in many varieties of spiritual philosophy consciousness is supposed to work like this: (i) if its content is something having 'name and form' (i.e. some object of the rupa world), then there is subject-object duality, and consciousness DOES focus on something or somewhere. (ii) if, however, its content is something without form (arupa), then there is no subject-object separation, and consciousness knows its content directly, by identifying with it. Accordingly they discriminate in raja yoga two stages of samadhi: 1. samprajnata samadhi--samadhi in which there is a sense of the form although it may be very, very subtle form; 2. asamprajnata samadhi--(asamprajnata = no awareness of duality [of subject and object])--formless samadhi. This subject is covered in two books by Franklin Merrell-Wolff, especially his second book, "The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object." The tile is self-explanatory. Since it is generally assumed that the higher self is beyond time, space, and other Kantian attributes of the form (rupa) world, one cannot focus one's consciousness in it--one identifies one's consciousness with it. Perhaps it is just a matter of choosing appropriate words, which in the final count is a matter of conventio, but I prefer to believe that my terminology is more mainstream than yours. Max From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 8 01:05:16 1996 Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 09:00:59 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607080502.AA29357@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: -- Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= Subject: Prophecy and Krishnamurti >for: ramadoss@eden.com Hello! >last quarter of this century, based on what she stated, it appears that JK's >role seems to fit. As for timing, even though he made his famous "Truth is a >Pathless Land" statement and that Truth cannot be put in a box in twenties, >his was very active in sixties onwards. Much of the current publications and I've seen several photographs of Krishnamurti made from his childhood till his death. And it seems to me that his face in in these periods looks quite different. Shape may mislead, of cource, but in case of the _same_ man it should be useful to analyse it. In early photographs, taken in his childhood, Krishnamurti seems to have some inspiration, in the age of 30 - 50 he looks like an ordinary man, but when he became old, he began to remind "original" Krishnamurti of 1910's. It should be noted that I have only limited set of his photograps, but many of you probably have more photos & videos and even seen him "live", so you can easily approve or refute my observation. Maybe he lost connection with a higher self and later re- established it? I've read here some criticizm that T.S. publishes too much biographies & memoirs on history of T.S. Maybe we could gain some meaning from them, if we suppose that all history of T.S. should be understood "esoterically", i.e. TS leaders re- present principles of man, and Krishnamurti represents Buddhi, or Christ in man. CWL may represent Kama, an AB - Manas. So this story shows that if Christ be even born, he can leave the personality if attitude to him is wrong, and after that Kama & Manas dissolve and personality die :) I afraid that we couldn't revive T.S. till "mistery of Krish- namurti" solution. W/best regards, Konstantin Zaitzev 2:5020/360.4 Fidonet Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Mon Jul 8 04:07:23 1996 Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 17:07:23 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E0897B.13CD@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Fatal Attractions References: <960708042631_74024.3352_BHT134-1@CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Price wrote: > > BCS wrote: > > When something is a karmic connection, I believe that it is so powerful > that we can't avoid seeing it. I had that experience in 1994 when I > drew someone into my life who stalked me, harrassed me and ultimately > tried to kill me. I don't think those things are random. Sure enough, > I was told by a psychic advisor that I had karma with that person, > was told what to do to pay the debt and release it. I did that and > it worked. It turns out that I drew that to me because in a previous > life, I didn't defend what was right. I had just gone along with > something although I *knew* it was wrong because I didn't want to > create conflict. > > I don't know if that will be a clue for you or not. I am still > thinking about why you might be stuck in Houston. I had to travel > 2500 miles to create that situation in 1994....but it had to be > done before I could be released from it. I would like to know what > your situation is in Houston. > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney > > Keith: > > This is too spooky. Yes, I feel I am getting sucked into some kind of sick > situation and the fact that I am fascinated by it an not only repelled says that > I feel the need to deal with it rather than run this time. I don't know the > detail of your situation and am not trying to infer that it is similiar to mine, > except that large social issues may be at work as well as personal karma. It > may have to do with someone who is seeking spiritual help, but these kind of > things rarely get to the higher atimic-buddhi planes of spiritual growth and > tend to sink to the lower kama-manas and desire-revenge astral planes to stretch > the jargon a little. I think it has too do with the deep issue of men asking > for love, nuturing ,acceptance, and deep spiritual connection from each other > which is totally debased in our society. The only acceptable outlets are > competitve and aggressive sportsmanship (including hunting) and buddy-buddy > drinking and whore chasing. The mens movement with all the shamanic drumming > and sweat lodging is trying to resurrect male bonding from it degraded state and > attempt to reframe it a native American spirituality. Your nkickname suggests > that you may be interested in shamanism. Unfortunately it may take many > generations of "male" evolution to free ourselves from the shame associated > with men asking men for spiritual help on any other but an intellectual basis. > > Namaste > Keith Price Bee suggests. So much of my reading just now keeps leading me to the aspects of personality which is what gives us all the trouble. Much of the advise given today is of a nature that keeps us focussed on the personality (ego) rather than try to connect with our individuality (Ego). It is my ego that gets frustrated where as my Ego just looks on and says nothing because I am not listening in that direction. It is ego that keeps the karma going, either sort, it doesn't matter. The whole rationale of being here on earth seems to be to learn selflessness, self-discipline etc, and that seems to mean persuading the ego to become the vehicle for the Ego and so live life with wisdom. All the events that come up every day seem geared to make us take notice and learn a different way of dealing with them. When we live from the Ego then divisive issues just aren't there because we see the wholeness of everything and we let others be what they are because we no longer relate to them as separate from us. Take an impersonal view of the issues and see what happens to them then. That is the ideal but I guess we are at least trying by being theosophists. From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 05:30:56 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:30:56 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708013056_150905315@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy Max, Yep, there is never too much work for us Dark Forces to do. If it weren't for our fellow theosophists we'd never get a break. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 05:31:17 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:31:17 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708013116_150905715@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy Shamna, Don't take us too seriously. It is against the Fourth Object for theosophists to ever agree on anything. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 05:31:56 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:31:56 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708013155_150905761@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy JRC, Remember that the Fourth Object says: To create a group of people who if they were not theosophists would kill each other. Chuck the Heretic From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 8 06:08:38 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: <960708013056_150905315@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Max, > Yep, there is never too much work for us Dark Forces to do. If it weren't > for our fellow theosophists we'd never get a break. > > Chuck You are right Chuck! Moreover, you underestimate yourself. See what the superior theosophical oracle says (SD, comments on Stanza III.6): "The essence of darkness being absolute light... "According to the tenets of Eastern Occultism, Darkness is the only true actuality, the basis and the root of light, without which the latter could never manifest itself, nor even exist. Light is matter, and Darkness pure Spirit. (!!! - Max) "The devil is now called Darkness by the Church, whereas, in the Bible he is called the "Son of God," the bright star of the early morning, Lucifer." Max From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 8 00:59:45 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:59:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <7liqyQAB2F4xEwov@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Theosophy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , "m.k. ramadoss" writes >Hi > >No body needs to agree on anything! That is the beauty of Theosophy. >While there are doctrines written by various writers starting from HP >Blavatsky, one of the two founders Written in a little haste here, Doss? *Theosophy* wasn't founded by Blavatsky! And the T.S. had a number of founders (certainly more than two) at its first formation in 1875, and they are named by Olcott in "Old Diary Leaves." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 22:52:35 1996 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:52:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Bodies In-Reply-To: <960706113739_570939015@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960706113739_570939015@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >That's all I need! Seven bodies and all of them with kidney stones! > >Chuck Do you wish to pay by Mastercard or Visa? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 6 23:02:27 1996 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:02:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Astral/Etheric terms In-Reply-To: <960706190843_76400.1474_HHL36-2@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960706190843_76400.1474_HHL36-2@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> writes >Astral and etheric are not interchangable words as they name >different regions of the Magical Universe. > > Jerry S. > Member TI Your definitions/explanations would be interesting, especially in plain English :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 8 13:02:47 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:02:47 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960708080547.35afff7a@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Theosophy At 04:22 AM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote: >In message , >"m.k. ramadoss" writes >>Hi >> >>No body needs to agree on anything! That is the beauty of Theosophy. >>While there are doctrines written by various writers starting from HP >>Blavatsky, one of the two founders > >Written in a little haste here, Doss? *Theosophy* wasn't founded by >Blavatsky! And the T.S. had a number of founders (certainly more than >two) at its first formation in 1875, and they are named by Olcott in >"Old Diary Leaves." > >Alan >--------- Yes, Alan, Hurry! Two days ago I sent a response to someone for the second time. May be lack of concentration is showing up. Need to re-read, Wood's book on Concentration! Not yet ready for meditation! .....Ramadoss ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 8 13:18:41 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 9:18:41 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607081318.JAA21380@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Places BCS asked about spiritually charged places and/or uncanny links to particular places. This summer, my brother spent his first extended European vacation riding and driving around France. A few years ago, my sister did the same with her husband. A few years before that, I spent several trips exploring most of France. I had not discussed the place with my siblings, and their choice to go there was motivated by another person; nevertheless the fact that we all gravitated to the same place-- and felt very much at home there-- strikes me as relevant to two propositions: 1) We tend to be reborn among those who have been family members before and 2) We tend to have unconscious attractions to places we have lived. I could go on and on about France, but will change the subject to India. While reading Old Diary Leaves for the first time 19 years ago, I was particularly struck by the part about Jammu and Olcott's 1883 journey there with Damodar-- having a very clear mental picture of the approach to the maharaja's palace. In 1990, when I finally went to Jammu to do research on the maharaja, the last hundred yards or so coming up to the palace was precisely as I had envisioned it while reading the book years ago. The whole time in India was a non-stop succession of weird "coincidences" that made it feel like a magically charged environment. I have been in 14 countries at last count, but only France and India have had that strange deja vu feeling that indicates some kind of unexplained link. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 8 13:22:45 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 9:22:45 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607081322.JAA22524@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Meditation Technique Two booklets I would recommend are "Meditation and the Mind of Man" by Puryear and Thurston, and "Meditation: Gateway to Light," by Elsie Sechrist. They both outline the meditation technique taught by Edgar Cayce. It involves a preparation phase using stretching and breathing exercises, followed by a recitation of the Lord's Prayer, which is given an esoteric interpretation correlating passages to the seven chakras and the endocrine glands. The meditation culminates with a focus of concentration at the Third Eye, and a hearing of the "divine voice." If anyone cares for more info, I'll post it; but thought a brief answer best for now. From shaman@primenet.com Mon Jul 8 13:40:50 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:40:50 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607081340.GAA04855@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Places In-Reply-To: <199607081318.JAA21380@leo.vsla.edu> from "K. Paul Johnson" at Jul 8, 96 09:19:58 am Content-Type: text ...[K Paul Johnson writes].... > relevant to two propositions: 1) We tend to be reborn among > those who have been family members before and 2) We tend to > have unconscious attractions to places we have lived. That is so interesting! It also sounds completely reasonable. I would guess that if we are attracted to a certain place like that in *this* incarnation, it would mean we have unfinished business there. Does that sound right? > of weird "coincidences" that made it feel like a magically > charged environment. When I finally got fed up with the energy of that place interfering with my meditation, I went there. It's odd...but I had no problem finding my way around despite the fact that I really didn't know the place. I felt quite "at home" there ... and even had some kind of comfortable connection to it. I didn't meet anyone significant though. I should mention that my grandparents are from there...which is how I got the name and the connection in that respect. Still...even though I went there (which logic would indicate as a resolution of sorts), I am still getting the energy of it in deep meditation. It's not obnoxious or intentionally intrusive... but it's there. What I am looking for partially is some method of discovering what it "wants", why it is attaching itself to me and how I can control it. Any ideas welcome. :-) I won't necessarily do anything to get rid of it...but I'd like to know what it is. > I have been in 14 countries at last count, but only France and > India have had that strange deja vu feeling that indicates some > kind of unexplained link. I have had that with the one place only...yet I feel reasonably certain that I've had more than two incarnations. Off the top of my head, that would indicate that I've resolved whatever needed resolved in the places from the past. Thanks for the input, you all. I do appreciate it. It's a minor situation -- but I don't like unknowns. :-) bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "No significant quote" e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 15:22:56 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:22:56 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708112255_572002164@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) Shaman, Okay, now you are in my field. I know this is asking a rather difficult question, but what is it about the energy you are getting that you feel is strange? Once we have an idea about that, we can get to work and analyze the problem. Chuck From shaman@primenet.com Mon Jul 8 15:42:34 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:42:34 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607081542.IAA19464@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) In-Reply-To: <960708112255_572002164@emout17.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 8, 96 11:23:49 am Content-Type: text Hi Chuck... Thanks for the question. I am going to go *way* out on a limb and answer your question. > Okay, now you are in my field. I know this is asking a rather difficult > question, but what is it about the energy you are getting that you feel is > strange? It isn't scary energy or anything like that. I think what I find strange about it is that it is a *place* and not a person or entity. I am accustomed to an occasional entity -- and certainly my own guides. And God/Spirit naturally. It is hard for me to conceive of a *place* having its own energy - so I am not sure how to communicate with it to find out why it is attaching itself to me. I have no idea what it *wants*... if that makes any sense. When I went to the place, I sensed the very same energy *every*where. It was in the buildings, on the streets, around the people. It was very familiar to me because then I knew it was the same thing I'd been sensing in meditation. It doesn't feel like something that comes from me internally. It is something outside of me. In the same respect as the entities or guides are outside of me. This is a very difficult thing to explain. Does this make a bit more sense? > Once we have an idea about that, we can get to work and analyze the > problem. I would certainly welcome that. I'm quite stuck with this. :-) bcs From wichm@xs4all.nl Mon Jul 8 17:31:42 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:31:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Message-Id: <199607081731.TAA17551@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Psychology of spiritual movements You are invited to my site which touches on psychological processes at work in spiritual (Theosophic and other) movements: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html MICHAEL ROGGE From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 17:44:46 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:44:46 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708134439_233134263@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) This is a tough one. I never heard of this either. But it helps make sense of your other posts. Now if I remember correctly and you get that line from me a lot because I've got tons of information in my head and at my great age it sometimes gets jumbled, the older writers, like around 1900 or so, on the occult would talk about places haveing their own "spirit" or "angel" or "energy" and that this would be detectable by sensitives. Certainly different cities have a different energy. Chicago is not New York, Allah be praised! While it is generally conceded that this energy is from the type of people who live in the city, it is by no means the only possible explanation. There may geographic pattern reasons why the energy manifests in a particular way, for example, just the way the city is laid out. But what you are experiencing is probably not that uncommon. It's just that nobody talks much about it as a part of meditation. Anyway, I hope this helps. If it is a real difficulty there are ways of getting rid of it. Chuck From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 8 18:03:48 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:03:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Psychology of spiritual movements In-Reply-To: <199607081731.TAA17551@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 wichm@xs4all.nl wrote: > You are invited to my site which touches on psychological processes at work > in spiritual (Theosophic and other) movements: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html > MICHAEL ROGGE > > Will do so. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From shaman@primenet.com Mon Jul 8 18:04:58 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:04:58 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607081804.LAA13890@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) In-Reply-To: <960708134439_233134263@emout07.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 8, 96 01:46:50 pm Content-Type: text > > This is a tough one. I never heard of this either. But it helps make sense > of your other posts. :-) Well, I am glad of that! Believe it or not, this is something I have even been reluctant to discuss with people I know personally. On the surface, it sounds so *nuts*! > jumbled, the older writers, like around 1900 or so, on the occult would talk > about places haveing their own "spirit" or "angel" or "energy" and that this > would be detectable by sensitives. Yes. I remember reading some of that...and I am somewhat of a firm believer now that I've experienced it. I don't experience it anywhere other than that city though. I can get a very general sense of other places I've lived...but nothing as intense as the b-energy. (That's what I've decided to call it since I have nothing else to hang it on.) Still...if I extrapolate this some and there *are* actual entities/ angels/etc. attached to places, then I should be able to communicate with it the same way I communicate with any other entity. That does make it a lot easier. I didn't try that before -- because I had no idea what I might unleash...but I think I'll try it and see what happens. > Certainly different cities have a > different energy. Chicago is not New York, Allah be praised! :-) > While it is > generally conceded that this energy is from the type of people who live in > the city, it is by no means the only possible explanation. It seems to me that if it was a sum total of the mixed energies of the people who live in a place, there would be no reason for it contacting me. It would make more sense for the collective energy of Tucson to be attaching itself to me...as it "absorbs" me into the community. > But what you are experiencing is probably not that uncommon. It's just that > nobody talks much about it as a part of meditation. If anyone has experienced it, I would certainly like to hear about it. I wonder about the possibility of having a friend try to channel it for me. It would have to be someone I really trust though. This is real easy to talk about on Internet where no one knows me...but talking with people in person about it is a bit touchy. > Anyway, I hope this helps. Very much. Really. > If it is a real difficulty there are ways of > getting rid of it. I considered getting rid of it by the standard means -- by informing it of universal law and telling it is has to leave me -- but the thing is that it is coming for a *reason*...and I just want to know what the reason *is*. I might decide to send it away after that....if I can't help it or do whatever it seems to want. If nothing else, to find out *why me*. I'll try this afternoon when I meditate to draw it back and use the standard means to make contact...and see what happens from there. Thanks for your input. I'll check into those references and see if that explains some of it, too. I can find those old writings somewhere. bcs From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 8 18:10:20 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:10:20 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960708141019_151228385@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? >Chuck writes> >You're gonna get a lot of answers to this one, but this the faq I prepared >for alt.theosophy. Richard Ihle writes> Chuck, I appreciate your sharing the frequently-asked-questions material. Let me take this opportunity to ask you a question as well: Is the piece just intended to be the one-time contribution of a common participant on alt. theosophy, or is in some way a "quasi-official" semi-defining or tone-setting introduction-to-the-newsgroup which will appear again and again? Also, don't hesitate to correct me, but I am sort of getting the impression that you feel that your role in asking someone to set up alt.theosophy gives you a special proprietary (ownership/control) relationship to the newsgroup which other possible participants do not have. I am not saying that it cannot work on that basis; however, I would like to get it clear from the outset to what extent you believe the newsgroup will be proceeding under the auspices/direction of "Uncle Chuckie." Now, as an individual contribution, your FAQ had some amusing things in it. However, I did not like it as a way to acquaint interested newcomers with either theosophy or the Theosophical Movement. >Chuck> >It helps to be three things, interested in things spiritual, slightly crazy and incredibly >stubborn. People often join the Theosophical Society because everyone else would >throw them out. >Every spiritual system imaginable is represented in our ranks, ranging from the >somewhat orthodox believers in common religions like Christianity and Buddhism, to >Witches, Magicians, Satanists (we don't like to admit that, but we have them) Tree >Worshippers, Rock Worshippers and followers of Jean Huston. If it exists, we have at >least one. [snip] >Is it true that Theosophists sacrifice and eat babies? >Not as an organizational practice, as lots of Theosophists are vegetarians, but Chuck >says they can be very tasty if served with the right sauce. R.I.> I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. As if it were not bad enough that Radha and John Algeo are on one side of me semi-officially asserting that ~Theosophy~ means specific, approved doctrine and belief in Masters, do I have to have a semi-official Sub-Genius, almost-nihilistic tone permeating alt.theosophy on the other side of me as well? While your FAQ piece did not go nearly so far in this direction as you are capable of, it went far enough to prompt me to hope that it is just intended as a one-shot contribution and not something which will be continued to be used as the first thing which acquaints newcomers with theosophical ideas, the Theosophical Movement, or alt.theosophy. I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. This may surprise you, but if I had to chose, I honestly think I would almost prefer to have a newsgroup with a "Core Theosophist" in charge, filtering my ideas, rather than a newsgroup which is primarily characterized by a tone of ridicule or licentious denigration. If the most generic definition of ~theosophy~ is "knowledge which has its base in, or at least originally derives from transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception," doesn't this in itself imply there is something very special and worthy about the individuals who are drawn into such an arena to begin with? At the minimum, aren't these the "people-unlike-the-rest-of-the-world" who are or have been willing to consider this type of non-empirical knowledge in their search for Truth? I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. I realize that many things you say about Theosophists being "slightly crazy" or "incredibly stubborn" are true in their own way; however, when I look at the Theosophical Family, I also sometimes just cannot help but see it more in the manner of Black Elk's Vision of his tribe, both the living members and the dead: "And as we went the Voice behind me said: 'Behold a good nation walking in a sacred manner in a good land!'" I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. Flaws and shortcomings, present and past, notwithstanding, don't you think Theosophy is basically a good nation where the individuals at least ~try and have tried~ to walk in a sacred manner according to their own understandings? Anyway, if a FAQ must be developed for use and re-use by alt.theosophy, my hope is that it does not establish the "anything-goes" attitude so firmly by the "eating babies" jokes etc. that the first impression a newcomer would get is that we are a bad or foolish nation all walking upon one another sacrilegiously. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 23:57:23 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:57:23 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708195705_352671377@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Welcome Alex, It certainly could be called a fan letter. Chuck From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 9 06:12:27 1996 Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:12:27 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960709061227.006c0c58@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" (repost) At 09:50 AM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote: > This is the occurence as HPB re-attained to her identity of Monadic >consciousness. The previous personality experiences were naught but >recapitulation and largely the karma of humanity at that time (which she >sacrificially incarnated through) and not her own expression. > Many souls then and today are born through bizarre experiences and >circumstances but transmute these to move toward higher realities and >thereby help offset some of humanity's difficulties, both by example and >sacrifice. > >Love, >Patrick > >*** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA >*** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html > >Patrick: That is certainly a rational explanation of what may have happened. As you very likely know, the T.S. has never claimed that HPB had attained Monadic consciousness. The T.S. has always claimed she was "only" a Chela. Now, I myself think of her as an adept, and my personal definition of "adept" implies (at least) Monadic consciousness, or what I call Total Personality Integration. The only question I have, however, is "Why Tibetan Tantrik Buddhism? There are far more advanced metaphysical philosophies, and Tibetan Buddhism is, as far as I am concerned, more than a little primitive, because I see all religions as primitive. Yelena Blavatskaya's missions were two. One: To bring about a reconciliation of science and metaphysical philosophy (not "religion"). Two: To introduce to the Western World, the concepts regarding the greater reality that had been obliterated by Christianity and the utter materialism it gave birth to. I think our major possibility of disagreement lies in the fact that I do NOT see Tibetan Tantrik Buddhism as a really desirable pathway to the greater or higher realities. It tends to get so terribly caught up in "the forest", that it fails to see "the trees". love: alexei From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Mon Jul 8 21:04:13 1996 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 10:04:13 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E177CC.4B4E@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) References: <199607081804.LAA13890@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaman wrote: > It seems to me that if it was a sum total of the mixed energies of the > people who live in a place, there would be no reason for it contacting > me. It would make more sense for the collective energy of Tucson to > be attaching itself to me...as it "absorbs" me into the community. > > > But what you are experiencing is probably not that uncommon. It's just that > > nobody talks much about it as a part of meditation. > > If anyone has experienced it, I would certainly like to hear about it. > I wonder about the possibility of having a friend try to channel it > for me. It would have to be someone I really trust though. This is > real easy to talk about on Internet where no one knows me...but talking > with people in person about it is a bit touchy. > > > Anyway, I hope this helps. > > Very much. Really. > > > If it is a real difficulty there are ways of > > getting rid of it. > > I considered getting rid of it by the standard means -- by informing it > of universal law and telling it is has to leave me -- but the thing > is that it is coming for a *reason*...and I just want to know what > the reason *is*. I might decide to send it away after that....if I > can't help it or do whatever it seems to want. If nothing else, to > find out *why me*. > > I'll try this afternoon when I meditate to draw it back and use the > standard means to make contact...and see what happens from there. > > Thanks for your input. I'll check into those references and see > if that explains some of it, too. I can find those old writings > somewhere. > > bcs Have you read up on elementals and elemental essence? This is really interesting as this can be the source of many thigns. Sometimes it is not advisable to focus on it as that gives it more energy and can cause it to become more than it already is. If I may give a personal example here. I got involved in chanelling around 4 years ago and just sort did it without much todo or learning. This came from a chaneling workshop that I ended up hosting. Then a group of 10 of us met once a week to continue the practice etc. There was only 2 of us who actually chanelled at that time so much interesting info was gained from the entities that talked to us. We sort of began establishing a group energy for healing purposes and from hindsight, I now realise this grew into an elemental force which slowly took shape and we even gave it a name, Auralies. The next thing that happened was that we chanelled throught it and with it. It was benign and loving but then after 2 odd years of steady attendance the group just split up in the strangest way. One went to Polytech,one to university, some to jobs and most of them gained something more. I gave away the chanelling as I gained more knowledge about what it was and how from some serious study of theosophy. I still have internal chats to an energy that I call the Elder Brother but it may be my higher self just as easily. I was told that once the group had established this elemental it had to be disbanded because it was like babies playing with a stick of dynamite. We had no idea what it really was and what could be done with it but if someone accidentally found out, who then used it wrongly, heavy karma could ensue on all of us. I have never forgotten reading Annie Besant's book on the thought world and that 'thoughts are things' that take on a life of their own if invested with constant energy. I vaguely understand that this area is in the realm of magic and that elementals are used by magicians who know the how and why of all this. I was highly amused reading in the Old Dairy Leaves, how HPB had her pet elementals who helped her do many things and supposedly hemmed some new towels for her as she was not into that sort of thing. Col Olcott swears that it had to be them as there was no other way they could have been got at in the cupboard that they were put for a short period of time and hey presto, hemmed towels though not very tidily done but hemmed nevertheless. I personally have had no nasty experiences in this area but I have never tried to achieve personal gain from it either as that was one thing the groups I floated around in, warned about. Sometimes it is better perhaps to let some things just be and maybe something will evolve but if not then it doesn't matter as there are so many things we still don't know about. Bee Bown From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 8 22:54:25 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:54:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? In-Reply-To: <960708141019_151228385@emout08.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi I would like to add my 2 cents worth info on usenet groups. There are two types - censored and uncensored. Setting up a newsgroup involves voting in the cyberspace in a very democratic manner. Once set up, no one has control over it. If someones postings are not liked, one can complain to the Internet Service Provider about the particular individual poster. Most ISPs would do nothing. Even if one ISP cuts off the individual, then the provider is going to lose a customer and the individual can sign up with another provider. Signing up ISP service is only a call away. When I signed up it took less than 5 minutes when I signed up. So we are dealing with a medium which has its own way of doing things. Many of us have to adjust to the new environment if we want to make use of it. BTW, Krishnamurti Foundation of America, it appears set up a mailllist under its control and supervision and it fell on its face. Then a new maillist is setup and doing very well. Like John Mead, the owner of the JK maillist is lurking very deep and if you hear from him it is on blue moon days. Ramadoss --------------------- On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 RIhle@aol.com wrote: > >Chuck writes> > >You're gonna get a lot of answers to this one, but this the faq I prepared > >for alt.theosophy. > > Richard Ihle writes> > Chuck, I appreciate your sharing the frequently-asked-questions material. > Let me take this opportunity to ask you a question as well: Is the piece > just intended to be the one-time contribution of a common participant on alt. > theosophy, or is in some way a "quasi-official" semi-defining or tone-setting > introduction-to-the-newsgroup which will appear again and again? > > Also, don't hesitate to correct me, but I am sort of getting the impression > that you feel that your role in asking someone to set up alt.theosophy gives > you a special proprietary (ownership/control) relationship to the newsgroup > which other possible participants do not have. I am not saying that it > cannot work on that basis; however, I would like to get it clear from the > outset to what extent you believe the newsgroup will be proceeding under the > auspices/direction of "Uncle Chuckie." > > Now, as an individual contribution, your FAQ had some amusing things in it. > However, I did not like it as a way to acquaint interested newcomers with > either theosophy or the Theosophical Movement. > > >Chuck> > >It helps to be three things, interested in things spiritual, slightly crazy > and incredibly >stubborn. People often join the Theosophical Society because > everyone else would >throw them out. > >Every spiritual system imaginable is represented in our ranks, ranging from > the >somewhat orthodox believers in common religions like Christianity and > Buddhism, to >Witches, Magicians, Satanists (we don't like to admit that, but > we have them) Tree >Worshippers, Rock Worshippers and followers of Jean > Huston. If it exists, we have at >least one. > > [snip] > > >Is it true that Theosophists sacrifice and eat babies? > >Not as an organizational practice, as lots of Theosophists are vegetarians, > but Chuck >says they can be very tasty if served with the right sauce. > > R.I.> > I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. As if it were not bad enough > that Radha and John Algeo are on one side of me semi-officially asserting > that ~Theosophy~ means specific, approved doctrine and belief in Masters, do > I have to have a semi-official Sub-Genius, almost-nihilistic tone permeating > alt.theosophy on the other side of me as well? While your FAQ piece did not > go nearly so far in this direction as you are capable of, it went far enough > to prompt me to hope that it is just intended as a one-shot contribution and > not something which will be continued to be used as the first thing which > acquaints newcomers with theosophical ideas, the Theosophical Movement, or > alt.theosophy. > > I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. This may surprise you, but if I > had to chose, I honestly think I would almost prefer to have a newsgroup with > a "Core Theosophist" in charge, filtering my ideas, rather than a newsgroup > which is primarily characterized by a tone of ridicule or licentious > denigration. > > If the most generic definition of ~theosophy~ is "knowledge which has its > base in, or at least originally derives from transcendental, mystical, or > intuitive insight or higher perception," doesn't this in itself imply there > is something very special and worthy about the individuals who are drawn into > such an arena to begin with? At the minimum, aren't these the > "people-unlike-the-rest-of-the-world" who are or have been willing to > consider this type of non-empirical knowledge in their search for Truth? > > I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. I realize that many things you > say about Theosophists being "slightly crazy" or "incredibly stubborn" are > true in their own way; however, when I look at the Theosophical Family, I > also sometimes just cannot help but see it more in the manner of Black Elk's > Vision of his tribe, both the living members and the dead: > > "And as we went the Voice behind me said: 'Behold a good nation walking in a > sacred manner in a good land!'" > > I don't know, Chuck . . . I just don't know. Flaws and shortcomings, present > and past, notwithstanding, don't you think Theosophy is basically a good > nation where the individuals at least ~try and have tried~ to walk in a > sacred manner according to their own understandings? > > Anyway, if a FAQ must be developed for use and re-use by alt.theosophy, my > hope is that it does not establish the "anything-goes" attitude so firmly by > the "eating babies" jokes etc. that the first impression a newcomer would get > is that we are a bad or foolish nation all walking upon one another > sacrilegiously. . . . > > Godspeed, > > Richard Ihle > > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 8 22:56:44 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:56:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) In-Reply-To: <199607081804.LAA13890@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi You are in the right place. It is my judgement that Theosophy enthusiasts have a lot of information on the kind of things you discussed. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 8 23:55:35 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:55:35 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960708195532_352670019@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy Max, Thank you, thank you, thank you. Chuck the Devil From jmeier@microfone.net Mon Jul 8 19:57:42 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:57:42 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607082357.AA06398@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Astral/Etheric terms (JerryS.) Hi Jerry -- Short re-post (two day delay), with comments at end: >>Are you sure about that? I've always thought two of the biggest problems in >>reading HPB were 1) the blinds, and 2) the often confusing use of the word >>astral to refer to "that CWL term which indicates the higher subplanes of >>the physical plane." > >Yes. G de Purucker says that HPB's "astral" or "astral light" refers to >the second cosmic plane (the one adjacent to the physical) which >is typically called the astral plane. As far as I know, the name of >astral plane for the second cosmic plane is used alike by all of >the early theosophical writers. Astral light was a generic term for >the astral, mental, and causal planes (in the same way as the >Egyptian Tuat or Dwat) until HPB and Theosophy began using it >for the second plane only. I don't recall HPB using the term etheric >plane at all. That name came from the ether that was supposed >to fill the solar system, and was used a lot in neo-theosophy. > >Astral and etheric are not interchangable words as they name >different regions of the Magical Universe. > Jerry S. > Member TI ************************************************* For, as Occultism teaches, if the Higher Mind-Entity -- the permanent and the immortal -- is of the divine homogenous essence of "Alaya-Akasa," or Mahat -- its reflection, the Personal Mind, is, as a temporary "Principle," of the substance of the Astral Light. As a pure ray of the "Son of the Universal Mind," it could perform no functions in the body, and would remain powerless over the turbulent organs of Matter. Thus, while its inner constitution is Manasic, its "body," or rather the functioning essence, is heterogenous, and leavened with the Astral Light, the lowest element of Ether. -- Lucifer Vol. VII, 1890, p177-185 quoted from CW Vol. XII, p371 So.. we just disagree on this one. HPB's use of astral for etheric is specifically addressed in some detail in the Bailey texts, which you do not accept as valid theosophical teaching. And I'm not a student of G.deP. Those two aside, I don't see how the original posting on Magic from the SD could be using Astral Light to refer to the astral plane, since I can't imagine HPB referring to any astral aspect as "true essence," given the nature of the fogs and miasmas that characterize the 2nd plane. From the quote above, it seems to me that HPB was still using Astral Light to refer to more than just "astral" matters only, though you and I may just be reading things differently. Jim From jmeier@microfone.net Mon Jul 8 19:57:44 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:57:44 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607082357.AA06405@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/3) Hi Chuck -- A couple of days ago you wrote, >I have a real problem with things that get practiced for thousands of years. > They tend to get just a bit ossified. No kidding. :) But its the FORM that can become inadequate, not the original impulse. The trick (I think) is to recognize what is/was valid separate from all the would-be commentators in the world. To some extent, I think we can see this in the tendency of some modern theosophy students to discount everything after 1890, more or less, in an attempt to skip over some of the many sidetracks... Who can count the various schools of Buddhism? One can spend a lifetime making a scholastic study of them, and that's no doubt useful, but all of the "thousands of years of commentary and ossification" doesn't really detract from the message of the Buddha. Does it? And IMO, reading the Sermon on the Mount gives all one really needs to know about Christianity... and all of the nonsense of the last 2,000 years doesn't mean squat, really. In the case of Raja Yoga, since it's based anyway upon personal experience of the integration of the personality with the Soul, the only real question is whether or not the text of Patanjali as we have it is an accurate rendition (or so it seems to me). [clip] >In any event, it may be that I have lived long enough to have heard too many >scare stories about everything from mastrubation to cholesterol and I am the >sort of person who just naturally rejects warnings out of hand. I am a risk >taker. And I have found that a damned good way to live. Sure something can >go wrong and I might get killed, but what the hell, I'll be back and that >cavalier attitude towards life carries over into my spiritual practice as >well. It gives me the freedom to pursue things that make angels nervous and >the older I get the more I am convinced that the pursuit is perhaps more >important than the goal. >I don't know if any of this rambling answers your questions, but it was a >try. >Chuck the Heretic I can't think of the guy's name, but reading your post reminded me of a famous businessman who returned to give the commencement speech at his alma mater and shocked the establishment by telling the graduating students, "There are those who will tell you not to burn your candle at both ends. I say, HELL! Break it in the middle and burn it four ways!" Which has always seemed a good idea to me. Anything beats being merely a bookworm, and some pretty heavy hitters have spoken about taking the Kingdom of Heaven by force... but meditation seems to be the key to effecting change. Jim From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Jul 9 01:56:58 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:56:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Usenet uncertainty Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Here is a message which is self explanatory. > Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:04:33 -0500 > From: Gary L. Foiles > Subject: Re: Women and Freemasonry M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Hi, Gary: > > For some reason I did not find your post on my news server. But picked > it up in www.dejanews.com which indexes most of the usenet forums. Ah yes, USENET is an uncertain thing at best. >>>>clip<<<<< > I visited your homepage. You have done a wonderful job. > Congratulations. > Hmmm! I'll certainly look into getting a copy of that book. Thank you again! -- Gary Foiles ----- My home page http://www.cadvantage.com/~gfoiles/ "A Kind Word" http://www.ccnet.com/~rudra/mea/dobson.htm From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Jul 9 08:53:05 1996 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 01:53:05 -0700 From: eldon@theosophy.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960709085305.00696058@beta.webcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? Richard Ihle: [writing to Chuch] >Chuck, I appreciate your sharing the frequently-asked-questions material. > Let me take this opportunity to ask you a question as well: Is the piece >just intended to be the one-time contribution of a common participant on alt. >theosophy, or is in some way a "quasi-official" semi-defining or tone-setting >introduction-to-the-newsgroup which will appear again and again? With a private mailing list, the listowner can set the agenda, just like someone, holding a theosophical class in their home, can assert some control over what programs are put on. On the other hand, with an alt.theosophy group, there is not a "listowner" and I don't think that anyone in the world can be precluded from posting whatever they're inspired to say. The purpose of a FAQ (frequently-asked questions) is to conserve bandwidth. (This is something that is more important on a newgroup that is read by the world where millions of computers may get a copy of the messages.) What goes in one? The typical questions that new readers of a newsgroup have, and the standard replies that they can expect to find. This is not someone's "official line" on what is true, it's a *summary* of the typical interchanges on the list. For a FAQ to be representative of something like 'theos-l', there'd be questions like "What is Theosophy?" and following the question would be a half-dozen representative (and conflicting) answers. A single answer to each question in the FAQ represents a single person's view, or the party line of a particular organization. If Chuck's FAQ is along these lines, then it would be "Theosophy According to Chuck" rather than an FAQ. My understanding of a newsgroup is that anyone can use it, much like a public part. The only restriction is that the discussion have something to do with the topic of the group. Is there anything that *doesn't* have something to do with Theosophy? -- Eldon From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 9 04:48:32 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:48:32 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960709004652_233631609@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? Rich, Well, I like "anything goes". It is, after all, a major part of my basic philosophy of life and anything I create is going to have that in it. And as this newsgroup is more-or-less my creation (with the help of one very good friend who makes me look conservative and reserved by comparison) I want it to follow that principle and shall become very mad if it does not. The problem with writing a faq is in trying to get something across to people who know absolutely nothing about what they are going to encounter in a newsgroup. I could have written a very serious piece that would have bored the young folks who most frequent these things half to death and so I chose to go for humor instead. I also wanted to get across that there are as many different ways of looking at theosophy as there are theosophists and so wild and furious disagreements are the norm rather than the exception. Actually, I think I did a rather good job of describing the way we really are, while trying to keep the damned thing brief because no one likes a 100,000 word faq, not as some folks think we should be. The "core theosophists are well repesented by Daniel and Martin and Eldon, so there is a balance, which is what I want. But I also want a totally free-wheeling discussion I don't want people to think we are a pack of duddie fuddies who spend all our time babbling in psuedo-sanskrit so I the more anarchic I can make us sound the better. And as I don't have a "should" in my mental body, I like that just fine. Of course, there is nothing to prevent you from writing and posting your own vision of the theosophical society. When I said totally free, I meant it. And I would like to see your concepts. After all, I am Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 9 04:51:33 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:51:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960709004736_233631786@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) Shaman, Yes it is very interesting. An energy yes, an entity--well that is something very different. Perhaps you should try to communicate with it and find out what it wants. Chuck From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 9 04:51:05 1996 Date: 09 Jul 96 00:51:05 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness Message-Id: <960709045104_74024.3352_BHT37-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith> Youri nickname suggests > that you may be interested in shamanism. BCS: Yes. I am. Not exclusively though. > Unfortunately it may take many > generations of "male" evolution to free ourselves from the shame associated > with men asking men for spiritual help on any other but an intellectual basis. Right here, I get the impression that you might be thinking that I'm a man. I am not. I know the name is a bit ambiguous. That is what happens when people name their kids after cities. It's an odd practice and can cause some misunderstandings. Nope. I'm female. Still, your point counts just the same. It is really up to men to take that situation in hand and *start* asking each other for help -- outside a professional context. "Society" be damned. Sometimes we just have to start *doing*. I remember an old thing I learned in est 20 years ago. Do, be, have. It works in that order. If you get to a point where you are comfortable to discuss the situation that is keeping you in Houston, that attracts and repels you, I am interested in hearing. Thanks for your response. I always like what you have to say. Keith: Thanks with all my heart to your synchronistic response. I am glad it worked out that you were a women and I didn't know it, because it proves that on the highest level we are all equal spiritual beings with the right for mutual respect, honoring and love not base on our sex or sexual orientation (as stated in the TI) objectives. This proves that practically anything or any feeling can happen to any human and that we can move out of the jugement mode into the clear light the family of humanity based on our knowledge of our common divine origins and ultimate destiny. Yet we are not at the end of evolution, it seems, by a long shot, and we have much karma to deal with before its a done deal. I would venture to say that not only past life issues, but childhood issues say of physical and emotional abuse or neglect surface again in "stalkers" who project needs onto their stalked object. But how many of us really had all the nuturing we needed to develop into the healthy beings we need to be or have current outlets for expressions of spiritual love. The cults like David Koresh and even the militia movement show the need for love projected on a spiritual teacher or ideal that takes on twisted form that nevertheless screams to society for some healthy response even thought the cry for help is very sick. Addictions are the primary way may deal with the repressed need for love. Food, sex, drugs, alcohol and most of all money and power (the acceptable addictions) seems to drive far too many of us, myself included. A former wall street wizard wrote that from his vast experience with money oriented types is that they are seeking immortality. They unconsciously believe that if the just make enough money, if their stock portfolios expand enough they will live forever (it is absurd on a rational level, but this what he saw as driving these men like Donald Trump, let's say). It wouldn't matter if there were an apocalypse, they would concoct a game so that they could win "points", it wouldn't matter what these points are. Money represent the proof of God's love and that they are loveable, on some level. They are absolutely confusing money as frozen spirit. In another way the more theosophy and theosphical history or sanskrit terms I know, gives me the illusion that I am making spritiual progress when in fact they may be for me - inversely proportional if used for self-importance and power plays etc. So much of acting "professional" is disguised cruelty, necessary perhaps, but a lie of detached socialbility and not really caring except in the team effort of getting more money and making more "points" for the team. People long for a bacchanal, a dionysian ecstatic connection with primal energies and these may take very strange harmful forms. Football is organized war as are the Olympics (which I happen to love, I confess because of the exaltation and transformation of the human form almost into the angelic -see Leni Reifenstahl's film on the Hitler spnsored Olympics called "Olympiad"). I don't want to dominate the discussion with my personal concerns. I hope others will talk about how a modern spiritual community can go beyond high-tech to high-touch without getting into the dregs of "sex-magic" or all that. The cyber-space is wonderful for its sense of detachment and universality (I didn't know you were a women, nor should I care, and I don't) yet one longs for some kind of true spiritual communion beyond words. I get this in some local groups by the way. But I think it is a direction the new age will need to look beyond all those home pages, surf to home page, surf to home page ........ Shamanism, wicca and the "men's movement" seem to be a "pill" outside of society to be take on weekends and on retreats, but haven't been integrated into schools and the workplace. What do the Steiner-anthropophists have to offer as a model? I have heard a little about Eurythmics and the Waldorf schools etc and the German movements before WWII. And at the risk of shouting, with all this talk about the seven bodies- who really cares, if one doesn't do something with them beside meditating on them and discussing the life out of all of them. Isn't the goal to enliven, enlighten our bodies and mutually enlighten and enliven each other for planetary evolution? Namaste Keith Price From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 00:23:40 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:23:40 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607100023.RAA01847@primenet.com> Subject: The Baltimore Chronicles Continue (results) Content-Type: text I tried to communicate with the energy this morning and did get some results. I wrote to another mailing list I am on, explaining the situation -- same as I did here -- and also got some help and input from them. Since you all have been *so* tremendously helpful, I wanted to share the results with you, too. I can't even begin to tell you all how refreshing it is to be able to discuss these experiences without having to worry about being considered nuts and just blown off without a second thought. Anyway, here's the results of this morning's communication...and as always, comments/suggestions/input is very welcome. I will continue on trying with this until I/it gets all there is to get. bcs **************** > Hi All... > > I appreciate all of your suggestions re: my trying to communicate with > a place. I tried them and did get some results. > > I decided to use the writing because it would be a good way to keep > me focussed. That tends to be a consistent problem of my own. My > mind wanders a lot. Using something specific that way keeps my > mind focussed on one thing only. > > It didn't tell me exactly what I wanted to know. It may take more > time before it will communicate that way but I intend to keep > trying. > > Part of the history of this is that I did go to that city > a few years ago. > > While I was there, so much of my own energy was tied up in a > destructive relationship that I wasn't fully free to deal with my > environment, at home or there. It is possible that I may have even > missed an opportunity to connect with the energy in a more meaningful way > at that time. > > Re: The Place / One part of me felt that it was very beautiful and > historic. Another part of me was very angry about the fact that > the residents didn't seem to acknowledge or respect its beauty. For > their own reasons, they have trashed the city, destroyed the earth > and been entirely destructive with the resources it has to offer. I > did my fair share of bellyaching about that on radio talk shows and > with people I met. Still, the relationship and its own destructive > nature kept me too entrapped to ever make any decisions about doing > more. > > Today, when I got out some paper and went to my Secret Garden to talk > to the energy, I let it know that I was very aware of those > things and that I knew it wanted to tell me something. I told > it that I was very open to whatever it had to say and that I > would write my questions. I asked it to write its answers to me. > > My first question was "If I had 30 seconds of free air time on > CNN during the evening news, what would you want me to say?" > > The reply? "I am drowning in the blood of violence, hatred and > despair." That was *not* written by me. It was written by *It*! > I am very certain of that. > > I went on to another question that was more personal. "Why are > you attaching yourself to me?" I didn't get a reply to that. The > energy decreased and nearly went away. I stopped writing questions > because I didn't want it to run off. > > I am not sure of what that means. Why it would decrease and begin > to go away is baffling to me. I am hoping it will communicate some > more -- that I can find out what it *really* wants. I don't know > what my choices will be in terms of taking action...but I do want > to hear all it has to tell me. > > It occurs to me logically that the reason it is attaching itself to > me is that I have a 20-year history as a community activist...and > it is wanting me to work on its behalf. However, that's pretty > difficult 2500 miles away. > > I will try consistently until I get all of this. > > If anyone has any suggestions as to other questions, methods, etc., > I am still looking for them. This is all quite new to me. > > Thanks to *everyone* for your comments and suggestions. I am > taking them quite seriously...so please don't feel like you are > wasting your time by helping me with it. > > > > bcs > > > From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 01:35:02 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:02 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607100135.SAA14016@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) In-Reply-To: <31E177CC.4B4E@whanganui.ac.nz> from "Bee Brown" at Jul 9, 96 08:01:44 pm Content-Type: text ..[bee brown writes]... > Have you read up on elementals and elemental essence? I haven't...and I am afraid I am completely ignorant about what elementals are. > interesting as this can be the source of many thigns. Sometimes it is not > advisable to focus on it as that gives it more energy and can cause it to > become more than it already is. From that, I am gleaning that an elemental is some sort of energy force that we create? > We sort of > began establishing a group energy for healing purposes and from hindsight, I > now realise this grew into an elemental force which slowly took shape and we > even gave it a name, Auralies. Okay. I think I am starting to understand what you are talking about now. > The next thing that happened was that we > chanelled throught it and with it. Do you mean you channelled through the entity or you channelled through the "elemental"? I interpret this as being that you gave the entity too much power...if you used it exclusively. As for the b-energy, (I don't know what else to call it), I will never allow it to either use me as a host nor will I ask it for anything informational or otherwise that is outside its specific vector. I would be too afraid of it trying to get too much control over me. > something more. I gave away the chanelling as I gained more knowledge about > what it was and how from some serious study of theosophy. How did that study change your perspective? > I still have > internal chats to an energy that I call the Elder Brother but it may be my > higher self just as easily. Yes. I also have my individual guides...and they don't have anything to do with the b-energy. > a stick of dynamite. We had no idea what it really was and what could be done > with it but if someone accidentally found out, who then used it wrongly, > heavy karma could ensue on all of us. I don't understand this part. Do you mean the entity...and that someone might use the entity incorrectly? > I have never forgotten reading Annie > Besant's book on the thought world and that 'thoughts are things' that take > on a life of their own if invested with constant energy. Oh, yes. Absolutely. > in the Old Dairy Leaves, how HPB had her pet elementals who helped her do > many things and supposedly hemmed some new towels for her as she was not into > that sort of thing. Now I am thinking that elementals are more than just collective thought energy. Right? They are entities? Walk-ins? > Col Olcott swears that it had to be them as there was no > other way they could have been got at in the cupboard that they were put for > a short period of time and hey presto, hemmed towels though not very tidily > done but hemmed nevertheless. I don't understand why any teaching entity would be interested in doing such a thing. I can't imagine asking the b-energy to clean out my fridge or something. This part doesn't make sense to me. Of course, I know that I am just too unfamiliar with the concept of elementals. I am going to see if that's mentioned in any of my metaphysical books. > this area but I have never tried to achieve personal gain from it either as > that was one thing the groups I floated around in, warned about. Well, I must admit that if I was a benevolent entity...and I was trying to help someone -- teach someone -- and they capitalized on it, I'd be pretty mad, too. That was a wise warning. > Sometimes it is better perhaps to let some things just be and maybe something > will evolve but if not then it doesn't matter as there are so many things we > still don't know about. That is essentially what I am trying to do with the b-energy. I am trying to give it the opportunity to communicate with me -- tell me what it wants -- but I won't allow it to have any power in my life. If it evolves into my learning something I am supposed to do for karmic reasons, I will do what I have to do. In all honesty though, I don't expect it to hang around forever. I expect it to say what it has to say and go away...unless I specifically ask it to stay. I can't imagine any reason why I *would* ask it to stay. If it becomes troublesome, I will tell it to leave me alone. I think I have so much energy invested right now because, above all else, it is fascinating. Why I would be the target of such a thing is baffling to me. Your point is well taken though. I am not going to allow it to run my life. bcs From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 10 01:11:33 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:11:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Theosophical noses In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960709085305.00696058@beta.webcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2.2.32.19960709085305.00696058@beta.webcom.com>, "Eldon B. Tucker" writes >Is there anything that *doesn't* >have something to do with Theosophy? > >-- Eldon When I look in the mirror it is clear that my nose is without doubt a karmic legacy .... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 10 01:09:40 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:09:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness In-Reply-To: <960709045104_74024.3352_BHT37-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960709045104_74024.3352_BHT37-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >Thanks with all my heart to your synchronistic response. I am glad it worked >out that you were a women and I didn't know it, because it proves that on the >highest level we are all equal spiritual beings with the right for mutual >respect, honoring and love not base on our sex or sexual orientation (as stated >in the TI) objectives. I am happily awaiting the flood of new TI members asking to be reigestered since the July posting of the TI objectives ... Oh Yes! New members apply to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk and you will be placed on the register with your name and e-mail address. All for free. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 02:04:37 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:04:37 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607100204.TAA19367@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness In-Reply-To: <960709045104_74024.3352_BHT37-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 9, 96 08:06:54 pm Content-Type: text ...[keith writes].... > Thanks with all my heart to your synchronistic response. I am glad it worked > out that you were a women and I didn't know it, because it proves that on the > highest level we are all equal spiritual beings with the right for mutual > respect, honoring and love not base on our sex or sexual orientation (as stated > in the TI) objectives. I don't know about TI objectives...but I know that what you are saying feels totally correct to me. When we are dealing in the spiritual realm, there is no valid reason to acknowledge gender. After all, before we became embodied, we were all spirit forms. We take on the gender to deal with whatever we have to deal with on the earthly plane. It's not relevant to the spiritual realm....except perhaps when we are discussing earthly experiences and trying to put them into perspective. > This proves that practically anything or any feeling can > happen to any human Yes. > and that we can move out of the jugement mode into the clear > light the family of humanity based on our knowledge of our common divine origins > and ultimate destiny. Yes, again. > Yet we are not at the end of evolution, it seems, by a > long shot, and we have much karma to deal with before its a done deal. Of course. > I would venture to say that not only past life issues, but childhood issues say > of physical and emotional abuse or neglect surface again in "stalkers" who > project needs onto their stalked object. It is a fear of oblivion, I think. I know the mind of my own stalker quite well...and I think he was afraid that if he was abandoned one more time that he would simply cease to exist. I believe it is a combination of childhood issues, spiritual emptiness and karma. He was not a person with a strong belief in anything that would give him comfort or perspective. Therefore, he projected that onto people he made contact with. > But how many of us really had all the > nuturing we needed to develop into the healthy beings we need to be or have > current outlets for expressions of spiritual love. Well, I come from a background that was almost completely devoid of love or any spirituality. It was simply a wretched place to grow up. While I was never subjected to any severe physical abuse or sexual abuse, the emotional abuse and spiritual neglect was profound. Still, there are *so* many outlets available to us. We may not get it as kids...but there's no real excuse for not getting it as adults. The problem is that we get *stuck* *acting* the way we were -- instead of *being* who we *are*. The universe has provided us with so many teachers...and so many opportunities to learn and grow that there is just no logical reason for that kind of emptiness. > The cults like David Koresh > and even the militia movement show the need for love projected on a spiritual > teacher or ideal that takes on twisted form that nevertheless screams to society > for some healthy response even thought the cry for help is very sick. Absolutely. We come to this planet full of questions and spend our earthly existences looking for the answers. Although sometimes I agree with Joseph Campbell that we aren't so much looking for the meaning of life as we are looking for the experience of being alive. > seeking immortality. They unconsciously believe that if the just make enough > money, if their stock portfolios expand enough they will live forever (it is > absurd on a rational level, but this what he saw as driving these men like > Donald Trump, let's say). But don't you think that is largely cultural? This culture determines human value by one's possessions and financial status. Kids in major cities kill each other for Jordan Airs because they believe that they will be considered more valuable as human beings for having them. > these points are. Money represent the proof of God's love and that they are > loveable, on some level. They are absolutely confusing money as frozen spirit. Exactly. > In another way the more theosophy and theosphical history or sanskrit terms I > know, gives me the illusion that I am making spritiual progress when in fact > they may be for me - inversely proportional if used for self-importance and > power plays etc. Or at least within that community, eh? I agree with the teachers of ACIM that competition between people is a direct assault on our understanding and realization of our oneness. Still, we have to choose as individuals to eliminate that from our lives. As an example, I am so non-competitive that I won't even play chess. I have deliberately chosen to eliminate it from my "software package" because I believe it will slow down or completely halt my own evolvement. > So much of acting "professional" is disguised cruelty, necessary perhaps, but a > lie of detached socialbility and not really caring except in the team effort of > getting more money and making more "points" for the team. I agree with you completely. > People long for a > bacchanal, a dionysian ecstatic connection with primal energies and these may > take very strange harmful forms. Yes. If they plunge ahead without teachers, it can become very harmful. Like Bee was mentioning in her post, that kind of thing can take on a life of its own. It's important to know what we are dealing with... and most of us can't do it without teachers. > Football is organized war as are the Olympics > (which I happen to love, I confess because of the exaltation and transformation > of the human form almost into the angelic -see Leni Reifenstahl's film on the > Hitler spnsored Olympics called "Olympiad"). I love baseball, too...but I really believe it is about the least harmful expression of competition there is. I don't really have a big problem with sports. > others will talk about how a modern spiritual community can go beyond high-tech > to high-touch without getting into the dregs of "sex-magic" or all that. Oh, yes. I know what you are talking about. I really think that will only come about as we come to understand our oneness -- and stop focussing on differences. Building bridges instead of walls, iow. The more we come to understand that we are all fundamentally the same and our needs are very much the same, we won't be so afraid to touch each other. > The > cyber-space is wonderful for its sense of detachment and universality (I didn't > know you were a women, nor should I care, and I don't) Cyberspace has it's function...but it is certainly not a healthy substitute for the real thing. > yet one longs for some > kind of true spiritual communion beyond words. I hear ya, Brother! This person responding to you has been divorced and alone for 4 years now. I know all about that feeling of deprivation. > I get this in some local groups > by the way. I am working on that myself...trying to find the correct group. I guess it is a result of my own upbringing -- where my own individuality was taken from me -- that I will not give any of that away though. It's always made me very hesitant to "join" anything. > But I think it is a direction the new age will need to look beyond > all those home pages, surf to home page, surf to home page ........ Of course. We need to come out of the closet, in a manner of speaking, and beging to meet with and talk with each other. Homepages? I've never looked at one and probably won't. I couldn't care less about them. > Shamanism, wicca and the "men's movement" seem to be a "pill" outside of society > to be take on weekends and on retreats, but haven't been integrated into schools > and the workplace. That has been true of every movement since the beginning of man. As a long-time veteran of the civil rights movement, I am very aware of how long it takes for social consciousness to change. I'm not holding my breath, waiting for the things you mentioned to become a part of the prevailing social ethic. > What do the Steiner-anthropophists have to offer as a model? > I have heard a little about Eurythmics and the Waldorf schools etc and the > German movements before WWII. Then you know more about it than I do at this point. > really cares, if one doesn't do something with them beside meditating on them > and discussing the life out of all of them. That's where it begins though. > Isn't the goal to enliven, > enlighten our bodies and mutually enlighten and enliven each other for planetary > evolution? Yes. But it will be a long journey...and human nature being what it is, it will be discussed to death before there is enough consensus to do anything about it. namaste, bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 02:06:24 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:06:24 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607100206.TAA19822@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophical noses In-Reply-To: from "Dr. A.M.Bain" at Jul 9, 96 09:56:30 pm Content-Type: text > When I look in the mirror it is clear that my nose is without doubt a > karmic legacy .... Well, using that model, I may then attribute my fat butt to karmic legacy, eh? :-) bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 02:19:39 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:19:39 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607100219.TAA22057@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) In-Reply-To: <960709004736_233631786@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 9, 96 08:06:26 pm Content-Type: text > > Yes it is very interesting. An energy yes, an entity--well that is something > very different. Perhaps you should try to communicate with it and find out > what it wants. I managed to communicate with it...and my sense at this point is that it is one individual entity that is "representing" the rest of the b-energy clan. I sent a note to the list about what happened when I communicated with it. I will admit that I was very tempted to ask it silly questions...but I won't. I was thinking of asking it if the entities are assigned to a place based on population -- kind of like the House of Representatives. :-) With a population of 900,000 - well, that should be at least 900 entities, right? Seriously, though, I would like to know the structure of such a thing. I suppose I will never find out. bcs From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 10 02:33:01 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:33:01 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun (by way of blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation)) Message-Id: <199607100233.TAA25790@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: More Comments by Mr. Dolgorukii on The Blavatsky Foundations and Daniel Caldwell I am posting to theos-l and theos-roots some interesting comments by Alexis Dolgorukii concerning The Blavatsky Foundation, the List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy, and myself. Food for thought. I will post my own response later. Daniel H. Caldwell > From ">alexis dolgorukii : > Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, > > Subject: ABOUT "READING LISTS" > > Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:17:48 -0700 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I am going to assume that many, if not most of the people who peruse this > newsgroup are NOT members of any organized Theosophical Group. I certainly > hope that is the case. Otherwise, there aren't enough "official" > Theosophists to make all this worth the effort. Because of that assumption I > want to say something about the so-called "BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION" it is not > at all the impressive "official" speaker for Theosophy that it seems, though > it does present what is called "Core Theosophy". It was founded by a man > named Walter Carrithers as part of a "Back To Blavatsky Movement", and upon > his death was taken over by Daniel Caldwell, who is responsible for the > messages on this newsgroup. In point of fact, I would be quite surprised to > learn that the "Foundation" consists of more members than Mr.Caldwell > himself. Because of that, I have a question for Mr. Caldwell, in his remarks > about my own suggested reading, he uses the term "we" quite frequently. So I > have to ask him (with all due respect to Mark Twain) if he "has a frog in > his pocket?" > > Mr Caldwell is one of the most disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people > I have ever met (electronically of course). He argues that my description of > his "reading list" as 100% pro-theosophic propaganda is untrue Because 50% > of it is Mme. Blavatskaya's own works. But, that's dreadfully disingenuous, > for what are her works except theosophical propaganda? Propaganda, is any > material that is promotional of an idea. Obviously Blavatskaya's works are > promotional of her beliefs and so they word "propaganda" fit's them > perfectly well. The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no > opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually > dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy > unless one has considered all points of view concerning it. > > I consider myself a theosophist, a "process theosophist" to be sure, but > nonetheless a theosophist. I have read all the opinions pro and con and > decided that theosophy had something in it that was valid to me. This is not > how Mr. Caldwell and other "Core Theosophists" view the subject. There are > things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they > cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete > list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with > their availability. Mr. Caldwell won't care much for this, but I really > couldn't care less for Mr. Caldwell's feelings in this matter. > > He edited and self-published a book: "THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY" > which is pure and unabashed hagiography. It consists of quoted reminiscences > of people who knew her. The only reference to any contrary opinion is in the > bibliography in the back of the book which has a section entitled "MAJOR > ATTACKS ON MADAME BLAVATSKY", but which entirely ignores most, if not > everything written on the subject in favor of two references to the "Society > of Psychic Research" negative report on HPB, one to the report itself, and > the other to the "Coulombs" who were a disgruntled pair of employees who > were instrumental in the results of that report. He also refers to an allied > matter, the book by Vsevolod S. Solovioff (Soloviev) "A MODERN PRIESTESS OF > ISIS", He was a relation of Blavatskaya's who wrote an extremely critical > book about her and published it in their native Russia. It was (obviously > for their own purposes) translated, abridged, and published for the Society > for Psychic Research. But there are literally dozens of other attacks on > Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them > raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather > people didn't read. Well I think they should! But then I'm not pushing a > "religion" and even though he refuses to admit it, that's exactly what "The > Blavatsky Foundation" is doing. > > From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 10 02:44:35 1996 Date: 09 Jul 96 22:44:35 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness Message-Id: <960710024435_74024.3352_BHT236-1@CompuServe.COM> > From: Keith Price, 74024,3352 > TO: all, >internet:theos-l@char.vnet.net > DATE: 7/8/96 11:50 PM RE: Copy of: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness Keith> Youri nickname suggests > that you may be interested in shamanism. BCS: Yes. I am. Not exclusively though. > Unfortunately it may take many > generations of "male" evolution to free ourselves from the shame associated > with men asking men for spiritual help on any other but an intellectual basis. Right here, I get the impression that you might be thinking that I'm a man. I am not. I know the name is a bit ambiguous. That is what happens when people name their kids after cities. It's an odd practice and can cause some misunderstandings. Nope. I'm female. Still, your point counts just the same. It is really up to men to take that situation in hand and *start* asking each other for help -- outside a professional context. "Society" be damned. Sometimes we just have to start *doing*. I remember an old thing I learned in est 20 years ago. Do, be, have. It works in that order. If you get to a point where you are comfortable to discuss the situation that is keeping you in Houston, that attracts and repels you, I am interested in hearing. Thanks for your response. I always like what you have to say. Keith: Thanks with all my heart to your synchronistic response. I am glad it worked out that you were a women and I didn't know it, because it proves that on the highest level we are all equal spiritual beings with the right for mutual respect, honoring and love not base on our sex or sexual orientation (as stated in the TI) objectives. This proves that practically anything or any feeling can happen to any human and that we can move out of the jugement mode into the clear light the family of humanity based on our knowledge of our common divine origins and ultimate destiny. Yet we are not at the end of evolution, it seems, by a long shot, and we have much karma to deal with before its a done deal. I would venture to say that not only past life issues, but childhood issues say of physical and emotional abuse or neglect surface again in "stalkers" who project needs onto their stalked object. But how many of us really had all the nuturing we needed to develop into the healthy beings we need to be or have current outlets for expressions of spiritual love. The cults like David Koresh and even the militia movement show the need for love projected on a spiritual teacher or ideal that takes on twisted form that nevertheless screams to society for some healthy response even thought the cry for help is very sick. Addictions are the primary way may deal with the repressed need for love. Food, sex, drugs, alcohol and most of all money and power (the acceptable addictions) seems to drive far too many of us, myself included. A former wall street wizard wrote that from his vast experience with money oriented types is that they are seeking immortality. They unconsciously believe that if the just make enough money, if their stock portfolios expand enough they will live forever (it is absurd on a rational level, but this what he saw as driving these men like Donald Trump, let's say). It wouldn't matter if there were an apocalypse, they would concoct a game so that they could win "points", it wouldn't matter what these points are. Money represent the proof of God's love and that they are loveable, on some level. They are absolutely confusing money as frozen spirit. In another way the more theosophy and theosphical history or sanskrit terms I know, gives me the illusion that I am making spritiual progress when in fact they may be for me - inversely proportional if used for self-importance and power plays etc. So much of acting "professional" is disguised cruelty, necessary perhaps, but a lie of detached socialbility and not really caring except in the team effort of getting more money and making more "points" for the team. People long for a bacchanal, a dionysian ecstatic connection with primal energies and these may take very strange harmful forms. Football is organized war as are the Olympics (which I happen to love, I confess because of the exaltation and transformation of the human form almost into the angelic -see Leni Reifenstahl's film on the Hitler spnsored Olympics called "Olympiad"). I don't want to dominate the discussion with my personal concerns. I hope others will talk about how a modern spiritual community can go beyond high-tech to high-touch without getting into the dregs of "sex-magic" or all that. The cyber-space is wonderful for its sense of detachment and universality (I didn't know you were a women, nor should I care, and I don't) yet one longs for some kind of true spiritual communion beyond words. I get this in some local groups by the way. But I think it is a direction the new age will need to look beyond all those home pages, surf to home page, surf to home page ........ Shamanism, wicca and the "men's movement" seem to be a "pill" outside of society to be take on weekends and on retreats, but haven't been integrated into schools and the workplace. What do the Steiner-anthropophists have to offer as a model? I have heard a little about Eurythmics and the Waldorf schools etc and the German movements before WWII. And at the risk of shouting, with all this talk about the seven bodies- who really cares, if one doesn't do something with them beside meditating on them and discussing the life out of all of them. Isn't the goal to enliven, enlighten our bodies and mutually enlighten and enliven each other for planetary evolution? Namaste Keith Price From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Wed Jul 10 03:11:54 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:11:54 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <31E31F7A.182D@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: thanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to thank everybody that responded to my questions about meditation. Ozren From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 10 03:08:22 1996 Date: 09 Jul 96 23:08:22 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: qualifications Message-Id: <960710030821_74024.3352_BHT141-1@CompuServe.COM> KKKK-QQQQ I would like to talk about 4 or so K's and 4 or so Q's. Reading Krishnimurti's ghost written, so to speak, work AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER which we in Houston are studying, I was struck by the four Q's or qualifications - 1. discrimination 2. desirelessness 3. good conduct and 4. LOVE. I felt like I was gushing a bit by bringing up the subject of love in a theosophical context, but better souls than I have seen to mention it now and then without hesitation. Krishnaji (if I may call him that) states boldy that "of all the qualifications, Love is the most important, for if it is strong enough in a man, it forces him to acquire all the rest, and all the rest without it would never be sufficient. Often it is translated as an intense desire for liberation from the round of births and death, and for union with God. But to put it in that way sounds selfish, and gives only part of the meaning. It is not so much desire as WILL, resolve, determination . . . Because He is Love, you, if you would become one with Him, must be filled with perfect unselfishness and love also....." One gets the idea that through a type of tantric or bakti yoga - linking with the Master through Love (capitalized to refer to Diving love as opposed to earthly love or ego driven love, oh demonic separation that causeth the fall in the first place!), one can achieve co-equal status with the Master as his servant or representative. Love is the fiat the carte blanche the VISA and MASTERCARD (literally). Through love we partake of the Master's divine nature and thus linking with Him becomes his brother and brides (this begins to sound a little like Catholism regarding monks and nuns, as well as the Buddhist tradition perhaps)> Jean Houston in her book SEARCH FOR THE BELOVED expressed the exact same themes present in the imitation christi, the tantic shakti yoga meditation and reiterated them from the Sufi tradition of Rumi. Synchronisticaly, I realize that much of Rumi's poetry was directed at his intoxication with his male lover who represented the ineffable an inexpressable beyond human form. The whiling devershises provided a type of god- intoxication. Of note in the news, synchronistically (maybe everything is),is Jean Houston's "excercises" in talking to Eleanor Roosevelt and other women. This was trivialized shamelessly by some in the press as a type of seance or talking to the dead. On talk radio Ms. Clinton has been accused openly of dealing in the occult and being part of an occult conspiracy that started with - THEOSOPHY - would it were true. Also of note is the fact that students who dared where KKK letters on there hats at graduation were denied military promotions and were ratted on by their high school president and shunted off to lesser duties (I don't have the exact details). It seems that hate is ever noticed and follows one everywhere despite maybe foolish mistakes, but Love is ever occult and so easily left unseen or unexpressed perhaps. I read Robert Frost' FIRE AND ICE again today quite by accident and he explores the theme of whether the world will be destoyed by fire (desire-love) or ice (hate) he conludes that he prefers fire, but that ice will suffice. Namaste Keith Price From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 10 02:33:01 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:33:01 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun (by way of blafoun@azstarnet.com (Blavatsky Foundation)) Message-Id: <199607100233.TAA25790@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: More Comments by Mr. Dolgorukii on The Blavatsky Foundations and Daniel Caldwell I am posting to theos-l and theos-roots some interesting comments by Alexis Dolgorukii concerning The Blavatsky Foundation, the List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy, and myself. Food for thought. I will post my own response later. Daniel H. Caldwell > From ">alexis dolgorukii : > Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, > > Subject: ABOUT "READING LISTS" > > Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:17:48 -0700 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I am going to assume that many, if not most of the people who peruse this > newsgroup are NOT members of any organized Theosophical Group. I certainly > hope that is the case. Otherwise, there aren't enough "official" > Theosophists to make all this worth the effort. Because of that assumption I > want to say something about the so-called "BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION" it is not > at all the impressive "official" speaker for Theosophy that it seems, though > it does present what is called "Core Theosophy". It was founded by a man > named Walter Carrithers as part of a "Back To Blavatsky Movement", and upon > his death was taken over by Daniel Caldwell, who is responsible for the > messages on this newsgroup. In point of fact, I would be quite surprised to > learn that the "Foundation" consists of more members than Mr.Caldwell > himself. Because of that, I have a question for Mr. Caldwell, in his remarks > about my own suggested reading, he uses the term "we" quite frequently. So I > have to ask him (with all due respect to Mark Twain) if he "has a frog in > his pocket?" > > Mr Caldwell is one of the most disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people > I have ever met (electronically of course). He argues that my description of > his "reading list" as 100% pro-theosophic propaganda is untrue Because 50% > of it is Mme. Blavatskaya's own works. But, that's dreadfully disingenuous, > for what are her works except theosophical propaganda? Propaganda, is any > material that is promotional of an idea. Obviously Blavatskaya's works are > promotional of her beliefs and so they word "propaganda" fit's them > perfectly well. The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no > opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually > dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy > unless one has considered all points of view concerning it. > > I consider myself a theosophist, a "process theosophist" to be sure, but > nonetheless a theosophist. I have read all the opinions pro and con and > decided that theosophy had something in it that was valid to me. This is not > how Mr. Caldwell and other "Core Theosophists" view the subject. There are > things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they > cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete > list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with > their availability. Mr. Caldwell won't care much for this, but I really > couldn't care less for Mr. Caldwell's feelings in this matter. > > He edited and self-published a book: "THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY" > which is pure and unabashed hagiography. It consists of quoted reminiscences > of people who knew her. The only reference to any contrary opinion is in the > bibliography in the back of the book which has a section entitled "MAJOR > ATTACKS ON MADAME BLAVATSKY", but which entirely ignores most, if not > everything written on the subject in favor of two references to the "Society > of Psychic Research" negative report on HPB, one to the report itself, and > the other to the "Coulombs" who were a disgruntled pair of employees who > were instrumental in the results of that report. He also refers to an allied > matter, the book by Vsevolod S. Solovioff (Soloviev) "A MODERN PRIESTESS OF > ISIS", He was a relation of Blavatskaya's who wrote an extremely critical > book about her and published it in their native Russia. It was (obviously > for their own purposes) translated, abridged, and published for the Society > for Psychic Research. But there are literally dozens of other attacks on > Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them > raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather > people didn't read. Well I think they should! But then I'm not pushing a > "religion" and even though he refuses to admit it, that's exactly what "The > Blavatsky Foundation" is doing. From alexei@slip.net Wed Jul 10 05:51:19 1996 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 22:51:19 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960710055119.006da858@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Welcome At 08:09 PM 7/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >Alex, >It certainly could be called a fan letter. > >Chuck > >Thanks, I feel it is too. I can't tell you how much it pleases me that I can do something which is undeniably useful. alex From aprioripa@pipeline.com Wed Jul 10 15:10:20 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:10:20 GMT From: aprioripa@pipeline.com Message-Id: <199607101510.PAA19858@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Subject: Re: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" (repost) >I think our major possibility of disagreement lies in the fact that I do NOT >see Tibetan Tantrik Buddhism as a really desirable pathway to the greater or >higher realities. It tends to get so terribly caught up in "the forest", >that it fails to see "the trees". My understanding is that many Initiates and Mahatmas do, as an exoteric form of service, preside in some area of human religion and that this expression is also much more of a function of the limitations of humanity's capacity to relate to spiritual realities than how they would be if they could completely manifest as how they are. The area of religious expression that they would choose would depend on where their service is needed most, perhaps to work for the transformation of the system, and would thereby indicate their chosen sacrifice and service rather than a validation of the religious system. For example if an Initi te or a Mahatma became the Pope or Dalai Lama they would then be in a position to transform these fields but would do so in a way that the people involved could relate to. Being in such a position, however, would not signify a validation of all of the aspects of those religions. I believe, from what I have read, that the M D.K. presides, in one of his duties, over a lamasary in Nepal or Tibet. Blessings, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 10 04:10:10 1996 Date: 10 Jul 96 00:10:10 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Really Attracting Oneness Message-Id: <960710041009_74024.3352_BHT260-1@CompuServe.COM> I am sorry I sent the post twice. I get the digest and I sent it again about 2 minutes before I got the new 24 hour digest. Thanks BCS (do you like BCS or Baltimore) for your thoughtful point by point response. If I may I would like to focus on the core issue for me which you relate as "being alive". Keith; > The cults like David Koresh > and even the militia movement show the need for love projected on a spiritual > teacher or ideal that takes on twisted form that nevertheless screams to society > for some healthy response even thought the cry for help is very sick. BCS: Absolutely. We come to this planet full of questions and spend our earthly existences looking for the answers. Although sometimes I agree with Joseph Campbell that we aren't so much looking for the meaning of life as we are looking for the experience of being alive. Keith: Indeed being alive in the sense of being transparent to Will, Love and Wisdom without the feeling of pushing or pulling the lower bodies around as a kind of corpse. Buddha was asked by his disciple if he was enlightened or divine or what? and he replied, it is told, "I'm awake!" I myself am undergoing a type of spiritual awakening as we all are. It is so much easier to go to sleep, to accept the messages of the world as they lull us into conformity and a typed of drugged sleep from cradle to grave. I am trying to go beyond blaming. I can see how easy it is for me to blame "society", education, the govenment, this group or that group, my family and on and on. Awakening to the one is my responsibility and only I can travel the path into the light. It helps to have good friends and teachers on the way. I hear your connection to the light and experience on the path as a kind of mutual recognition. I think that being really alive is very threatening and is accompanied by fear, anger, depression, false pride and hopefully an ultimate ability to love-connect-respond to the One no matter the seeming seperateness. Namaste Keith Price From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 10 04:51:37 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:37 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960709235439.357f415a@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: qualifications At 11:35 PM 7/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >KKKK-QQQQ > >I would like to talk about 4 or so K's and 4 or so Q's. Reading >Krishnimurti's ghost written, so to speak, work AT THE FEET OF >THE MASTER which we in Houston are studying, I was struck by the >four Q's or qualifications - 1. discrimination 2. desirelessness >3. good conduct and 4. LOVE. I felt like I was gushing a bit by >bringing up the subject of love in a theosophical context, but >better souls than I have seen to mention it now and then without >hesitation. > >Krishnaji (if I may call him that) states boldy that "of all the >qualifications, Love is the most important, for if it is strong >enough in a man, it forces him to acquire all the rest, and all >the rest without it would never be sufficient. Often it is >translated as an intense desire for liberation from the round of >births and death, and for union with God. But to put it in that >way sounds selfish, and gives only part of the meaning. It is >not so much desire as WILL, resolve, determination . . . Because >He is Love, you, if you would become one with Him, must be filled >with perfect unselfishness and love also....." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It looks like this is the key idea. All our perceptions and actions are distorted if they are not done with perfect unselfishnes. In one of the later talks, Krishnaji mentions that when right response is there, there is no choice of actions. In many cases of problems, I have personally seen that a full understanding of the problem by itself produces the solution. That is the problem itself contains the solution. So such an understanding, it appears, comes easily if the situation and facts are looked at from a point of perfect unselfishness. My 2 cents worth. ....Ramadoss > >One gets the idea that through a type of tantric or bakti yoga - >linking with the Master through Love (capitalized to refer to >Diving love as opposed to earthly love or ego driven love, oh >demonic separation that causeth the fall in the first place!), >one can achieve co-equal status with the Master as his servant or >representative. Love is the fiat the carte blanche the VISA and >MASTERCARD (literally). Through love we partake of the Master's >divine nature and thus linking with Him becomes his brother and >brides (this begins to sound a little like Catholism regarding >monks and nuns, as well as the Buddhist tradition perhaps)> > >Jean Houston in her book SEARCH FOR THE BELOVED expressed the >exact same themes present in the imitation christi, the tantic >shakti yoga meditation and reiterated them from the Sufi >tradition of Rumi. Synchronisticaly, I realize that much of >Rumi's poetry was directed at his intoxication with his male >lover who represented the ineffable an inexpressable beyond human >form. The whiling devershises provided a type of god- >intoxication. > >Of note in the news, synchronistically (maybe everything is),is >Jean Houston's "excercises" in talking to Eleanor Roosevelt and >other women. This was trivialized shamelessly by some in the >press as a type of seance or talking to the dead. On talk radio >Ms. Clinton has been accused openly of dealing in the occult and >being part of an occult conspiracy that started with - THEOSOPHY >- would it were true. > >Also of note is the fact that students who dared where KKK >letters on there hats at graduation were denied military >promotions and were ratted on by their high school president and >shunted off to lesser duties (I don't have the exact details). >It seems that hate is ever noticed and follows one everywhere >despite maybe foolish mistakes, but Love is ever occult and so >easily left unseen or unexpressed perhaps. > >I read Robert Frost' FIRE AND ICE again today quite by accident >and he explores the theme of whether the world will be destoyed >by fire (desire-love) or ice (hate) he conludes that he prefers >fire, but that ice will suffice. > >Namaste >Keith Price > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 10 05:42:14 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:42:14 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E342B5.7776@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) References: <199607100135.SAA14016@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaman wrote: > > ..[bee brown writes]... > > > Have you read up on elementals and elemental essence? > > I haven't...and I am afraid I am completely ignorant about what > elementals are. There are some on this list who know a lot more than I do about this subject and I hope they will give us the benifit of their knowledge. > > > interesting as this can be the source of many thigns. Sometimes it is not > > advisable to focus on it as that gives it more energy and can cause it to > > become more than it already is. > >From that, I am gleaning that an elemental is some sort of energy > force that we create? I guess that could be a way of looking at it. The trouble is that there are so many levels of theosophical ideas that there will be many views on this subject. In the way I was referring to it, I see it an invisible entity that was created by the strong focus of the group and the intention to do this. It did become an entity in its own right. > > > We sort of > > began establishing a group energy for healing purposes and from hindsight, I > > now realise this grew into an elemental force which slowly took shape and we > > even gave it a name, Auralies. > > Okay. I think I am starting to understand what you are talking about now. > > > The next thing that happened was that we > > chanelled throught it and with it. > > Do you mean you channelled through the entity or you channelled through > the "elemental"? I interpret this as being that you gave the entity > too much power...if you used it exclusively. The power was already there when the group came together and called it up. It spoke through a chanel when allowed to do so and acted as an intermediary and enhancer for other chanelled energy. Very interesting it was too. > > As for the b-energy, (I don't know what else to call it), I will never > allow it to either use me as a host nor will I ask it for anything > informational or otherwise that is outside its specific vector. I > would be too afraid of it trying to get too much control over me. It may not be the same sort of thing but it seems to me that anything, physical or non-physical, can be accentuated by too much attention paid to it. It's similar to someone holding a grudge and feeding it by brooding on it to the extend of attacking the object of the grudge. > > > something more. I gave away the chanelling as I gained more knowledge about > > what it was and how from some serious study of theosophy. > > How did that study change your perspective? It caused me to see that there was a lot more to life than I had ever imagined and it just lost its importance within the vast vistas of life I learned about. If it became necessary I would still do it but so far it hasn't. I have moved in another direction and haven't the time to put into it anymore. > > > I still have > > internal chats to an energy that I call the Elder Brother but it may be my > > higher self just as easily. > > Yes. I also have my individual guides...and they don't have anything > to do with the b-energy. They may know what it is hanging about for. > > > a stick of dynamite. We had no idea what it really was and what could be done > > with it but if someone accidentally found out, who then used it wrongly, > > heavy karma could ensue on all of us. > > I don't understand this part. Do you mean the entity...and that someone > might use the entity incorrectly? Yes or accidentally. I vaguely understand that magicians use elementals that they build up. That seems part of learning magic but I do not know a lot about that so I am only surmising. > > > I have never forgotten reading Annie > > Besant's book on the thought world and that 'thoughts are things' that take > > on a life of their own if invested with constant energy. > > Oh, yes. Absolutely. > > > in the Old Dairy Leaves, how HPB had her pet elementals who helped her do > > many things and supposedly hemmed some new towels for her as she was not into > > that sort of thing. > > Now I am thinking that elementals are more than just collective thought > energy. Right? They are entities? Walk-ins? They are thought energy that have been 'concretised' in the realms that we can't quite see unless we are that way inclined. I also think that there are elemental beings who live in the elemental planes e.g fairies, gnomes etc. These were probably the ones that helped HPB. There are many interesting stories told about these little people. > > > Col Olcott swears that it had to be them as there was no > > other way they could have been got at in the cupboard that they were put for > > a short period of time and hey presto, hemmed towels though not very tidily > > done but hemmed nevertheless. > > I don't understand why any teaching entity would be interested in doing > such a thing. I can't imagine asking the b-energy to clean out my > fridge or something. This part doesn't make sense to me. Of course, > I know that I am just too unfamiliar with the concept of elementals. I > am going to see if that's mentioned in any of my metaphysical books. these were not teaching entities but as mentioned above, members of the elemental kingdom who don't really like humans that much but when someone like HPB excercises her will over them, they get used to it. > > > this area but I have never tried to achieve personal gain from it either as > > that was one thing the groups I floated around in, warned about. > > Well, I must admit that if I was a benevolent entity...and I was trying > to help someone -- teach someone -- and they capitalized on it, I'd be > pretty mad, too. That was a wise warning. > > > Sometimes it is better perhaps to let some things just be and maybe something > > will evolve but if not then it doesn't matter as there are so many things we > > still don't know about. > > That is essentially what I am trying to do with the b-energy. I am > trying to give it the opportunity to communicate with me -- tell me > what it wants -- but I won't allow it to have any power in my > life. If it evolves into my learning something I am supposed to > do for karmic reasons, I will do what I have to do. In all honesty > though, I don't expect it to hang around forever. I expect it > to say what it has to say and go away...unless I specifically > ask it to stay. I can't imagine any reason why I *would* ask > it to stay. If it becomes troublesome, I will tell it to leave > me alone. > > I think I have so much energy invested right now because, above all > else, it is fascinating. Why I would be the target of such a thing > is baffling to me. > > Your point is well taken though. I am not going to allow it to > run my life. > > bcsHope it all goes well. Bee From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 14:27:30 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:27:30 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607101427.HAA10030@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Really Attracting Oneness In-Reply-To: <960710041009_74024.3352_BHT260-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 10, 96 00:12:02 am Content-Type: text > Thanks BCS (do you like BCS or Baltimore) I've been called so many things, the list is too long for the internet. :-) I've been called BC, Bee (but that's already taken by someone else on this list :-) and assorted other things. I suppose B works okay. I save Baltimore for legal documents. ..[being alive]... > Indeed being alive in the sense of being transparent to Will, Love and Wisdom > without the feeling of pushing or pulling the lower bodies around as a kind of > corpse. Part of being alive is being open and experiential with all those factors. Our bodies aren't burdens in this consciousness. They are a vehicle for learning. In this life, we can't be entirely transparent to Will, Love and Wisdom...but it is our job to reconcile our physical lives to those things. > Buddha was asked by his disciple if he was enlightened or divine or > what? and he replied, it is told, "I'm awake!" I couldn't have said it better myself. :-) > much easier to go to sleep, to accept the messages of the world as they lull us > into conformity and a typed of drugged sleep from cradle to grave. Being really alive is far from "easy." Granted, the giving in to the prevailing style makes life a lot easier...but not nearly as fulfilling. It requires a denial of who and what we are. We are spiritual beings having and earthly experience -- not earthly beings having a spiritual experience. > I am trying > to go beyond blaming. I can see how easy it is for me to blame "society", > education, the govenment, this group or that group, my family and on and on. Good idea. It certainly won't get you anywhere to blame. We all came to this planet having agreed to our experiences -- the good along with the bad. > Awakening to the one is my responsibility and only I can travel the path into > the light. It helps to have good friends and teachers on the way. It's essential. We can't do it alone because Spirit uses other people to teach us. > connection to the light and experience on the path as a kind of mutual > recognition. Mutual recognition of what? > I think that being really alive is very threatening and is > accompanied by fear, anger, depression, false pride Fear of the unknown, I agree with. I am not sure about depression or false pride. I guess, for me, all of this is just so natural...and I am totally aware that every human being on the planet comes with the "software" to do it. He or she just has to make the choice...and it *is* that simple. > and hopefully an ultimate > ability to love-connect-respond to the One no matter the seeming seperateness. There is no separateness though. If you can imagine it (I don't know if you are visual or not), it's almost like that movie "Stargate" where there is a veil...and we can go through that veil...and *that's* the scary part...because it brings up so much unfamiliarity (on a conscious level anyway.) Our unconscious and Higher Selves communicate with the other side of that veil constantly. We can go back and forth with reasonable ease...once we get the hang of it. Does any of this resonate for you? bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 10 15:29:42 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 11:29:42 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607101529.LAA01941@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Stuck in the middle Richard Ihle commented on feeling stranded in the Theosophical movement, with people on his "right" lining up with John A. and Radha B. redefining the TS in a more exclusive, dogmatic direction, while some on his "left" seem to exemplify an irresponsible and destructive cynicism. One group wants to deny the very obvious dysfunctionality of Theosophical organizations, and to blame the problems on "those others who don't really belong." The other side denies the very obvious dysfunctionality of criticisms expressed in a way seemingly guaranteed to offend and disturb. I keep wondering how many there are who both recognize the seriousness of the problems facing the movement, and are willing to communicate in an atmosphere of mutual respect with those who might help find solutions. So far, it seems that cyberspace communication has done little or nothing to help improve the health of the Theosophical movement. Can or will it do so in the future? From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 15:47:20 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:47:20 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607101547.IAA22525@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <199607101529.LAA01941@leo.vsla.edu> from "K. Paul Johnson" at Jul 10, 96 11:31:13 am Content-Type: text > > Richard Ihle commented on feeling stranded in the Theosophical > movement, with people on his "right" lining up with John A. and > Radha B. redefining the TS in a more exclusive, dogmatic > direction, while some on his "left" seem to exemplify an > irresponsible and destructive cynicism. Perhaps I am missing something (again) but I am having an overwhelming thought here and feel compelled to put it out. Just ignore it, if that pleases you best...or perhaps give it some thought. Whatever. First off, I don't understand all of this posturing and politicking that I've been reading about in several posts. I'm far from familiar with any kind of "movement" and have an ingrained suspicion of them to begin with. Doesn't it seem though that this is just a larger scale of office politics and really defeats the entire purpose of having an organization of people who are open to all sorts of religious philosophy? Again, maybe I am just missing something. But that's how it looks from the outside. All these personalities and quibbling over whose philosophy is the "right" philosophy smacks of creating dogma. Is that what you all want? > One group wants to > deny the very obvious dysfunctionality of Theosophical > organizations, and to blame the problems on "those others who > don't really belong." What do they mean about "those who don't belong"? > far, it seems that cyberspace communication has done little or > nothing to help improve the health of the Theosophical > movement. Can or will it do so in the future? I'm not sure what you mean by the "health" of it. My understanding is that the whole purpose of the organization is to find other seekers, to explore different ideas and provide a resource for exposure to those ideas. From the sounds of it, you all are trying to herd cats. When you have some 1000s of people, all of whom are free thinkers, the typical methodology of organization ain't gonna work. I do know, though, that politicking and quibbling about personalities and the quest for "power" (as if any one of us had more "power" than another in *any* respect) is exactly what destroys organizations. From what I've read, you all have a great library and each individual is a wonderful resource for the exploration of ideas. Lots of sharp and aware minds. Why not tap that wisdom and ignore all the rest of this stuff. As me olde grandmither used to say, "will this all matter in ten years?" 'Nuff said. -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 10 15:51:04 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:51:04 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607101551.IAA24775@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: More Comments by Mr. Dolgorukii on The Blavatsky Foundations and Daniel Caldwell RE: >> From ">alexis dolgorukii : >> Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, >> Subject: ABOUT "READING LISTS" >> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:17:48 -0700 Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >> I am going to assume that many, if not most of the people who peruse this >> newsgroup are NOT members of any organized Theosophical Group. I certainly >> hope that is the case. Otherwise, there aren't enough "official" >> Theosophists to make all this worth the effort. Because of that assumption I >> want to say something about the so-called "BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION" it is not >> at all the impressive "official" speaker for Theosophy that it seems, though >> it does present what is called "Core Theosophy". It was founded by a man >> named Walter Carrithers as part of a "Back To Blavatsky Movement", and upon >> his death was taken over by Daniel Caldwell, who is responsible for the >> messages on this newsgroup. In point of fact, I would be quite surprised to >> learn that the "Foundation" consists of more members than Mr.Caldwell >> himself. Because of that, I have a question for Mr. Caldwell, in his remarks >> about my own suggested reading, he uses the term "we" quite frequently. So I >> have to ask him (with all due respect to Mark Twain) if he "has a frog in >> his pocket?" Daniel Caldwell replies: I will not reply to Mr. Dolgorukii's negative comments on the Blavatsky Foundation. He is entitled to his opinions. But I am puzzled by Mr. Dolgorukii's comment: " the so-called 'BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION' it is not at all the impressive 'official' speaker for Theosophy that it seems..." The Foundation's primary aim is to disseminate information on the life, writings and teachings of Madame Blavatsky to interested individuals, inquirers and students. It is NOT the purpose of the Foundation to be the " 'official' speaker for Theosophy"---whatever that may mean and imply!!!! Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >> Mr Caldwell is one of the most disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people >> I have ever met (electronically of course). He argues that my description of >> his "reading list" as 100% pro-theosophic propaganda is untrue Because 50% >> of it is Mme. Blavatskaya's own works. But, that's dreadfully disingenuous, >> for what are her works except theosophical propaganda? Propaganda, is any >> material that is promotional of an idea. Obviously Blavatskaya's works are >> promotional of her beliefs and so they word "propaganda" fit's them >> perfectly well. The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no >> opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually >> dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy >> unless one has considered all points of view concerning it. >> >> I consider myself a theosophist, a "process theosophist" to be sure, but >> nonetheless a theosophist. I have read all the opinions pro and con and >> decided that theosophy had something in it that was valid to me. This is not >> how Mr. Caldwell and other "Core Theosophists" view the subject. There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete >> list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with >> their availability. Mr. Caldwell won't care much for this, but I really >> couldn't care less for Mr. Caldwell's feelings in this matter. Daniel Caldwell replies: Again, I will not reply to Mr. Dolgorukii's comments on my personality. He has his opinions and is entitled to them. Concerning the "reading list" on HPB and Theosophy, the FOCUS was on HPB's own writings and the teachings contained therein. A number of titles were also included on HPB's life as well as introductions and commentaries on HPB's teachings. Furthermore, the bibliography was limited to books IN PRINT (as stated at the beginning of the list of suggested reading). Personally, I am not aware of a book in print that is devoted entirely to a critical (outsider's view) analysis of HPB's presentation of Theosophy. If I have overlooked such a book, please let me know about it. Again, Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >>The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no >> opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually >> dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy >> unless one has considered all points of view concerning it.... There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete >> list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with >> their availability. It is unclear to me whether Mr. Dolgorukii is talking about "con" books that either criticize (1) HPB's life; or (2) criticize her teachings; or (3) criticize the various Theosophical organizations and groups. Maybe all three? Again, Mr. D. wrote: >> There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line" The focus of the list of suggested reading is on HPB; the focus is NOT on the history of the various Theosophical organizations. This is another subject---interesting and controversial but not the primary concern of the bibliography. Furthermore, an individual can read and study HPB's writings and never belong to any of the existing Theosophical organizations. Or one can join all the existing organizations! It will be interesting to see what books Mr. D. will include in his "con" list. Hopefully some of them are still in print. I certainly agree that it is important to read the other side of the argument; I do that all the time. As far as criticisms of HPB's life (i.e. that she was a fraud, charlatan, etc), REFERENCES are made to primary sources in the biographical books in the reading list and interested individuals can pursue that aspect IF they are interested. Mr. Dolgorukii again wrote: >> He edited and self-published a book: "THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY" >> which is pure and unabashed hagiography. It consists of quoted reminiscences >> of people who knew her. The only reference to any contrary opinion is in the >> bibliography in the back of the book which has a section entitled "MAJOR >> ATTACKS ON MADAME BLAVATSKY", but which entirely ignores most, if not >> everything written on the subject in favor of two references to the "Society >> of Psychic Research" negative report on HPB, one to the report itself, and >> the other to the "Coulombs" who were a disgruntled pair of employees who >> were instrumental in the results of that report. He also refers to an allied >> matter, the book by Vsevolod S. Solovioff (Soloviev) "A MODERN PRIESTESS OF >> ISIS", He was a relation of Blavatskaya's who wrote an extremely critical >> book about her and published it in their native Russia. It was (obviously >> for their own purposes) translated, abridged, and published for the Society >> for Psychic Research. But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. Well I think they should! But then I'm not pushing a >> "religion" and even though he refuses to admit it, that's exactly what "The >> Blavatsky Foundation" is doing. Daniel Caldwell replies: COMPARE what Mr. D. says about my book THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY with the following facts: In the Introduction (p. 7) to my book, I wrote as follows: "Few individuals have been more misrepresented and slandered than Madame Blavatsky. Therefore, in selecting narratives for this book, only a few of the negative accounts have been used. There are several reasons for this decision. First and foremost, many of these hostile accounts are simply untrue. Those who would like to read some of the negative accounts should consult the following items in the bibliography: Marion Meade's biography (listed on p. 313) and the titles by Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyov (listed under the heading 'Major Attacks Against H.P.B. and Their Rebuttals,'pp. 315-316)." And I do give the negative comments of Richard Hodgson on p. 205 that she was a Russian spy and that her raps were nothing more than the cracking of her finger and thumb joints. In fact, for example, I was hoping that some readers would COMPARE what was found in my book with what Marion Meade wrote about HPB. Again, Mr. D. wrote: >> But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. In my book (p. 313) at the very beginning of the bibliography, I wrote: "This bibliography is a unique listing of Blavatsky-related books, audio cassettes and videos (VHS) *in-print* as of October, 1991....Many of these items can be purchased through your local bookstore. If you cannot obtain a particular title, try to order it by mail from....." Notice the words: IN PRINT. Every item listed in the bibliography (with two exceptions) was in print as of Oct. 1991. The two out-of-print items *included because of their importance* were Marion Meade's biography and Emma Coulomb's book. Both of these titles portray HPB as a fraud and charlatan. Again, in the same bibliography, I list Richard Hodgson's expose of HPB and Solovyoff's negative portrayal of HPB under the heading "Major Attacks Against HPB and Their Rebuttals." The reader interested in pursuing that aspect of HPB's career, therefore, could pursue those titles (by Meade, Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyoff), etc. Again, repeating what Mr. D. wrote: >> But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. Are those "dozens of others attacks" to be considered MAJOR attacks? Certainly, in my mind, Meade, Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyoff produced major attacks on HPB. Maybe there are others, but these four titles are some of the most important. Were those "dozens of other attacks" IN PRINT in 1991? The major reason for including only IN PRINT items was that it was assumed that these titles would be most accessible to readers of my book. Furthermore, since these titles were in print, a reader could easily purchase copies. Again, the bibliography in my book lists (1) Bruce Campbell's ANCIENT WISDOM REVIVED, which gives a negative portrayal of HPB and (2) K. Paul Johnson's IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS, which gives a controversial interpretation of HPB's career. Enough. I will let other readers of this posting, therefore, decide if I am guilt of trying to hide negative info on HPB. It will be interesting to see Mr. D.'s list of "con" books. Mr. D., please post the titles of the "literally dozens of other attacks on Blavatsky" on alt. theosophy and I will repost them on theos-l and theos-roots. I would also encourage Mr. D. to give us several CONCRETE examples of the "very rational, well-argued points" from these attacks on HPB. Daniel H. Caldwell From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:10:18 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:10:18 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131017_573721688@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? Doss, Why are these folks so afraid of freedom? Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:10:15 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:10:15 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131014_573722314@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/3) Jim, When I was in college the student paper did an editorial cartoon of me entering heaven sitting in a tank with about a hundred stars on my helmet, with heaven in a shambles, a squashed angel sticking out from under the treads and I was holding a map upside down saying that I thought we took a wrong turn somewhere. I may have gotten older, but I haven't changed very much. Personally, I have no use for either the ignoble (sorry, there I go again, but it really bugs me) eight-fold path or the sermon on the mount. As far as I'm concerned enlightenment has nothing to do with being a nice Pali and the only thing the meek inherit is the dirt. So I view those teachings as being totally without any practical value. I'm not even sure that the Buddha was really enlightened. He may have had good press agent. And I'll bet good money that Jesus was not the Son of God. I operate under a basic assumption. All teachings are lies. Some lies got popular and some did not, but there is not a word of truth in any of them. Having thus dispensed with all spiritual epistemic authority, I then proceed to go to work and see what happens. That's how I got into the TS. I mean, it is real difficult to be working on some kind of spiritual path and not believe a word of what anyone says about it. And then I discovered this group that said all you had to do was assent to these nice, three objects, which I sort of already agreed with anyway, and did not have to believe in anything else. Yippee! So I'm willing to accept as a basic premise that no matter what the system is, it will work for somebody and not necessarily for anyone else, and that includes any system I might come up with. But the fact that the system works for any number of given individuals does mean that there is any actual truth behind the system, there is merely something there that resonates with the particular person involved. Thus, in a very real sense, I believe that in the realm of the spiritual anything does go and everything is permitted. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:11:33 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:11:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131131_573722407@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Baltimore Chronicles Continue (results) Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:12:02 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:12:02 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131202_573722380@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? Eldon, I can't think of a thing that doesn't have something to do with Theosophy, with the possible exception of pickle recipes. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:11:41 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:11:41 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131138_573722499@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy (strange energy) Shaman, Well, I have some equipment that might prove useful to define it's structure. After convention is over I may give it a look. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:11:51 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:11:51 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131146_573722443@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophical noses Alan, Whereas my nose is the result of my genetic heritage. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 10 17:11:38 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:11:38 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960710131135_573722343@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Attractions/Attracting to the Oneness Keith, Aside from commenting from some useful experience that sex magick is not dregs, I agree with your post, though I think we will all be long in hell before any of this is found in schools. Chuck the Heretic From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 10 17:24:26 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:24:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <199607101547.IAA22525@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > > > Richard Ihle commented on feeling stranded in the Theosophical > > movement, with people on his "right" lining up with John A. and > > Radha B. redefining the TS in a more exclusive, dogmatic > > direction, while some on his "left" seem to exemplify an > > irresponsible and destructive cynicism. > > > Perhaps I am missing something (again) but I am having an overwhelming > thought here and feel compelled to put it out. Just ignore it, if > that pleases you best...or perhaps give it some thought. Whatever. > > > First off, I don't understand all of this posturing and politicking > that I've been reading about in several posts. I'm far from familiar > with any kind of "movement" and have an ingrained suspicion of them > to begin with. Doesn't it seem though that this is just a larger > scale of office politics and really defeats the entire purpose > of having an organization of people who are open to all sorts of > religious philosophy? > > Again, maybe I am just missing something. But that's how it looks > from the outside. All these personalities and quibbling over whose > philosophy is the "right" philosophy smacks of creating dogma. Is > that what you all want? > What do they mean about "those who > > far, it seems that cyberspace communication has done little or > > nothing to help improve the health of the Theosophical > > movement. Can or will it do so in the future? > > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "health" of it. My understanding is > that the whole purpose of the organization is to find other seekers, > to explore different ideas and provide a resource for exposure to > those ideas. From the sounds of it, you all are trying to herd cats. > When you have some 1000s of people, all of whom are free thinkers, > the typical methodology of organization ain't gonna work. > > I do know, though, that politicking and quibbling about personalities > and the quest for "power" (as if any one of us had more "power" > than another in *any* respect) is exactly what destroys organizations. > >From what I've read, you all have a great library and each individual > is a wonderful resource for the exploration of ideas. Lots of sharp > and aware minds. Why not tap that wisdom and ignore all the rest > of this stuff. > > As me olde grandmither used to say, "will this all matter in ten >years?" 100% agree! The ongoing information revolution plus the rising grass-roots theosophical groups and individuals will make all this organizational stuff completely obsolete in several years and will help redefine the very concept of what shape a theosophical organization is going to take. There are at least two healthier models for a theosophical organization: 1. Although discussions in theos-*** email groups and on alt.theosophy may seem to be disappointing to many people (myself included), this is just a beginning, and it's going to evolve into a better kind of an electronic organization or rather an electronic community--not just a forum--a free coalition of independent thinkers helping each other (rather than teaching each other). 2. T.S. unfavorably compares with some other quasi-theosophical organizations that serve as strictly resource centers engaged in preservation and distribution of certain teachings attributed to various Adepts rather than broadcasting and enforcing their leaders' views or their beloved version of theosophy: Arcane School, the Temple of the People, and Nicholas Roerich Museum & Agni Yoga Society. Unfortunately, T.S. will not be easy to change, since it has accumulated a lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its co-founders, HPB and Olcott, who issued orders on behals of the Masters, encouraged unquestioning obedience, etc., etc., so the subsequent leaders just perpetuated that tradition--without being initiates like HPB. This karma got built in the very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to survive. Max From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 17:24:42 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:24:42 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607101724.KAA12050@primenet.com> Subject: The Chessman Chronicles continue In-Reply-To: <960710131138_573722499@emout17.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 10, 96 01:19:03 pm Content-Type: text > > Well, I have some equipment that might prove useful to define it's structure. > After convention is over I may give it a look. Equipment? Could you tell me what you mean? bcs From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 10 17:31:47 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? In-Reply-To: <960710131017_573721688@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > Why are these folks so afraid of freedom? > > Chuck > Chuck, It's not a matter of just fear of freedom--it's worse: it's ESCAPE from freedom into all kinds of organizations. It's simple: if you are a weak character, you readily give up your freedom in exchange for a kind of theosophical welfare. We need heretics as never before. Max From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 17:54:08 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:54:08 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607101754.KAA18131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: from "Maxim Osinovsky" at Jul 10, 96 01:25:24 pm Content-Type: text > 100% agree! Thanks! :-) ...[options].... > it's going to evolve into a better kind of an > electronic organization or rather an electronic community--not just a > forum--a free coalition of independent thinkers helping each other (rather than > teaching each other). Or at the very minimum, we are certainly free to teach each other in areas where we may have individually studied a particular topic. Some of that has happened with a few individuals in relation to my recent experiences. Those who know more than I have shared their perspectives with me which provides me with the opportunity to expand my understanding. However, it is all offered in the spirit of knowing that we are all a combination of teacher and student...and there is no ego enhancement involved. It would also be great to see people take a chance and write about their spiritual experiences on the list. > 2. T.S. unfavorably compares with some other quasi-theosophical > organizations that serve as strictly resource centers engaged in > preservation and distribution of certain teachings attributed to > various Adepts rather than > broadcasting and enforcing their leaders' views or their beloved version > of theosophy: Arcane School, the Temple of the People, and Nicholas > Roerich Museum & Agni Yoga Society. I don't have enough history on this whole thing to really get a sense of what all that means. > lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its co-founders, HPB and Olcott, > who issued orders on behals of the Masters, encouraged unquestioning > obedience, etc., etc., so the subsequent leaders just perpetuated that > tradition--without being initiates like HPB. Well, it's important to remember though that a person can be very enlightened and still come to this planet with their own karma. The real test in my mind would be this: Has Ms. Blavatsky or Mr. Olcott ever offered anything, idea-wise, that has enriched the people who have learned of it? Have they changed any lives? Have they done any good? Bottom line is that they will ultimately be judged on that alone. Being enlightened in one area doesn't prevent someone from being a butthead in another area. I'm reminded a bit of the personality of Ayn Rand. Although I am no one's libertarian, she *did* come up with ideas for people to think about. My understanding from Barbara Branden, her personality left a lot to be desired. In the world of ideas, personality just doesn't matter though. It is only the merit of the idea that counts. If anyone knowingly and blindly follows another, s/he usually gets what s/he pays for: nothing. It is an individual and personal responsibility to think independently. No one -- not Blavatsky, Ayn Rand or God herself -- is responsible for our elightenment. I haven't read enough of Ms.Blavatsy to know whether or not she came up with any revolutionary ideas...but what little I know, I found some value there. I don't much care about her personally, one way or the other. That's between her and her God. > This karma got built in the > very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to > survive. I disagree here. That sort of thing always has the potential of being turned around. It's up to the individuals involved to make it happen. As a friend of mine always says, "take the best and leave the rest." bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 10 19:08:47 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:08:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <199607101754.KAA18131@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > ...[options].... > > > it's going to evolve into a better kind of an > > electronic organization or rather an electronic community--not just a > > forum--a free coalition of independent thinkers helping each other (rather than > > teaching each other). > > > Or at the very minimum, we are certainly free to teach each other in > areas where we may have individually studied a particular topic. Some > of that has happened with a few individuals in relation to my recent > experiences. Those who know more than I have shared their perspectives > with me which provides me with the opportunity to expand my understanding. > However, it is all offered in the spirit of knowing that we are all a > combination of teacher and student...and there is no ego enhancement > involved. Again agree. This is largely a matter of phraseology which words you pick up--"teaching," "sharing," etc. It's important to see the meaning and not to get stuck to words. Your version is more detailed and meaningful than mine, and I appreciate it. > It would also be great to see people take a chance and write about > their spiritual experiences on the list. It depends. For example, I am not inclined to share my experience of communicating with my Self: 1) that experience is mostly not communicable to others, 2) I feel that almost any attempt to communicate it will spoil it. However, there are other areas of experience that may be meaningfully discussed. <> > > lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its co-founders, HPB and Olcott, > > who issued orders on behals of the Masters, encouraged unquestioning > > obedience, etc., etc., so the subsequent leaders just perpetuated that > > tradition--without being initiates like HPB. > > > Well, it's important to remember though that a person can be very > enlightened and still come to this planet with their own karma. The > real test in my mind would be this: > > Has Ms. Blavatsky or Mr. Olcott ever offered anything, idea-wise, > that has enriched the people who have learned of it? Have they > changed any lives? Have they done any good? Bottom line is that > they will ultimately be judged on that alone. Being enlightened > in one area doesn't prevent someone from being a butthead in > another area. > > I'm reminded a bit of the personality of Ayn Rand. Although I am > no one's libertarian, she *did* come up with ideas for people to > think about. My understanding from Barbara Branden, her personality > left a lot to be desired. In the world of ideas, personality just > doesn't matter though. It is only the merit of the idea that > counts. > > If anyone knowingly and blindly follows another, s/he usually gets > what s/he pays for: nothing. It is an individual and personal > responsibility to think independently. No one -- not Blavatsky, > Ayn Rand or God herself -- is responsible for our elightenment. > I haven't read enough of Ms.Blavatsy to know whether or not she > came up with any revolutionary ideas...but what little I know, > I found some value there. I don't much care about her personally, > one way or the other. That's between her and her God. Karma is not a one-dimensional thing. There are different kinds of karma associated with what one is (1) doing, (2) speaking, and (3) thinking. Also, one's actions may create a mixed karma, both harmful and beneficial. We are not supposed to judge her--it's between her and her God, it's true. But we live in an environment partially shaped by HPB, and that's to be taken into account and responded to by sharing her views or by ognoring them; however, that's our karma how we do that, not hers. > > This karma got built in the > > very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to > > survive. > > > I disagree here. That sort of thing always has the potential of > being turned around. Everything is possible, but is it probable? > It's up to the individuals involved to > make it happen. As a friend of mine always says, "take the best > and leave the rest." People may feel empowered, but how about the organizational inertia? "...Leave the rest' may in this case even mean leaving thr T.S. for a better place or for no place. Max From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Wed Jul 10 19:25:43 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:25:43 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607101925.AA13775@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: stuck in the middle Maxim Osinovsky writes: >The ongoing information revolution plus the rising grass-roots >theosophical groups and individuals will make all this >organizational stuff completely obsolete in several years and >will help redefine the very concept of what shape a theosophical >organization is going to take. There are at least two healthier >models for a theosophical organization: JHE I think you are right on target here. This "Organizational stuff" took a dive in the 1960's and has never recovered. The TS either needs to radically change its organization. A month or so ago I suggested some definite changes the TS would have to make. First on the list is the permanent closure of the ES, since it lies at the heart of the organizational power brokering. However, I don't see the TS dying. It has had a long history of making the needed changes. Though the changes are always minimal and about twenty years too late, it is always enough change to keep the organization alive. MO >Unfortunately, T.S. will not be easy to change, since it has >accumulated a lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its >co-founders, HPB and Olcott, who issued orders on behals of the >Masters, encouraged unquestioning obedience, etc., etc., so the >subsequent leaders just perpetuated that tradition--without >being initiates like HPB. This karma got built in the very >structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to >survive. JHE I can find endless examples of the later leaders issuing orders on "behalf of the Masters" and encouraging "unquestioning obedience," but where do you find this with HPB and HSO? At least HSO before 1891. My own inquiry suggests that this kind of nonsense began right after Olcott's death in 1907 and escalated until 1930 when everything began to fall into chaos. After Arundale's death in 1945, this kind of speaking on behalf of the Masters and encouraging unquestioning obedience retreated back to the ES, where it still remains. But even in the ES of HPB's day, members took a pledges to their "Higher Self," not to the outer head. Under Besant, that all changed. JHE ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From wichm@xs4all.nl Wed Jul 10 21:59:09 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:59:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Message-Id: <199607102159.XAA17702@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re:Theos-L disgest As a (Dutch) newcomer to this group may I throw in some quite unimportant asides? First of all I wish to compliment this group for its quite serious tone of conversation - a relief from the normal diatribe and drivel in other groups. A pity one has to wade through endless repetitions of former contributions. Having said that I want to add that I should regret it very much if good wholesome humour like the "EATING BABIES" joke would not have its rightful place in Chucks"s FAQ. If only to get rid of newcomers who might consider Theosophists "a bad or foolish nation". After all, unless one becomes like a fool one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven! I recognize the special energy felt by Shaman. In fact in my former days when I was still a Theosophist I had experiences of something like that invading me like a light, making me feel light and pure inside. I realised that I could keep in touch with it by submission free from mental interference. As to BEE BOWN's channeling group. I have been fascinated by the phenomenon of presences manifesting to individuals and especially during sittings. I have written on it on my page: "The presence phenomenon" (http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/presence.html) A.o. about a fictitious entity "Philip" presenting itself to a Canadian experimental group. BOOKLISTS. I do not think that Marion Meade's revealing biography: "Madame Blavatsky. Woman behind the Myth." did justice to her. Yet, it raises important issues. It having been published in 1980 could be termed quite a modern approach and should not have been left out of a representative booklist. Anyone really interested would have no difficulty in tracing it, if it were only in the public library. Best regards. MICHAEL ROGGE From RIhle@aol.com Wed Jul 10 22:08:07 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:08:07 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960710180807_573928292@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle >Baltimore writes> > Again, maybe I am just missing something. But that's how it looks > from the outside. All these personalities and quibbling over whose > philosophy is the "right" philosophy smacks of creating dogma. Is > that what you all want? >Max writes> >It's not a matter of just fear of freedom--it's worse: it's ESCAPE from >freedom into all kinds of organizations. It's simple: if you are a weak >character, you readily give up your freedom in exchange for a kind of >theosophical welfare. >We need heretics as never before. Richard Ihle writes> Welcome to the list to you both. I believe this thread is doing a little "drift" from what I originally, and then Paul later, was concerned about. Since you both arrived after theos-l's last "typhoon season," it is understandable that you didn't pick-up on exactly what was being referred to. I guess you will just have to take my word for the fact that things sometimes ~go pretty far~ when we follow the "anything-goes" philosophy. Here, I am not referring to forceful arguing about ideas etc.; rather, I am talking about ~anything goes~ in terms of unkindness, name-calling, and general abuse of other people on the list. Will you two be around in a few months? I hope so, because it seems like we have been losing at least three out of four (?) new people for quite a while now, most complaining that they are bothered by the rudeness, negativity, lack of respect, or something else along those lines. If you need corroboration, just ask Bee--because it seems like it is only by chance or good fortune that we have her back now after she had left for reasons like the foregoing. So anyway, my initial remark was merely intended as hope that nothing would start alt.theosophy off on the same bad foot--i.e., with the tone of ~anything goes~ not merely applying to the free exchange of ideas, but ~anything goes~ extended to the level of insult/hatred/ridicule we allow ourselves to send to one another as well. This, I believe, is all Paul meant by those who "exemplify an irresponsible and destructive cynicism." I agree that we need heretics as never before . . . and perhaps we even need nice people as never before. . . . --Well, Baltimore and Max, again welcome. I hope you will both stick around for a while and ~not~ have any opportunity to see what I am talking about. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 22:12:31 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:12:31 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607102212.PAA01600@primenet.com> Subject: Theos-l: Michael Rogge In-Reply-To: <199607102159.XAA17702@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> from "wichm@xs4all.nl" at Jul 10, 96 05:59:48 pm Content-Type: text > > First of all I wish to compliment this group for its quite serious tone of > conversation - a relief from the normal diatribe and drivel in other groups. Yes. I have found it that way as well. The general tone is very intelligent. > A pity one has to wade through endless repetitions of former contributions. I'm afraid I am with you on that one. At times, I have wished these text editors didn't allow for quoting (even though I am doing it) and people would have to think of a one-line message to summarize what they are replying to. Never gonna happen though so I guess it really isn't worth getting too upset about. > I recognize the special energy felt by Shaman. > I had experiences of something like that > invading me like a light, making me feel light and pure inside. Mine isn't exactly the same. The energy I've been "communicating" with isn't a particularly happy energy...and it definitely "wants" something. It's far from malevolent though. It wants a healing... and I believe it is probably attaching itself to just about anyone who is open to it, that it believes will act on its suggestions and needs. > I realised > that I could keep in touch with it by submission free from mental interference. Submission free from mental interference? Can you elaborate? Do you mean just giving into it? > of presences manifesting to individuals and especially during sittings. I They all seem to be willing to do it. It's just a matter of finding someone who is willing to be a host. That's the hard part. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Wed Jul 10 22:23:39 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:23:39 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607102223.PAA04915@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle In-Reply-To: <960710180807_573928292@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "RIhle@aol.com" at Jul 10, 96 06:07:03 pm Content-Type: text > ...[Richard Ihle writes]... > Welcome to the list to you both. Thank you. I have a few comments below. For the most part, I am in total agreement with some of your points. (You'll find that I generally reply to the things I find enlightening...or things I agree with. I'm not much of a quibbler.) > not referring to forceful arguing about ideas etc.; rather, I am talking > about ~anything goes~ in terms of unkindness, name-calling, and general abuse > of other people on the list. I think you are absolutely right about that...and I am not suggesting the type of anarchy that promotes the free-for-all rudeness that is all over most of the Internet. Personally, I don't like that lack of civility and will delete it immediately. I see nothing wrong with having some sort of agreement when signing up for the list that will make that kind of behavior unacceptable. After all, one of the strongest bases of freedom is that if I am free to express my ideas ... so are you. In the end, none of us can "prove" we are right and someone else is wrong. I know for sure that *I* am not wise enough to judge someone else's reality. > Will you two be around in a few months? Yes. I will. But I do use killfiles...and if someone is too negative, I just put them in my killfile. I really don't need that junk in my life. > If you need > corroboration, just ask Bee I don't need corroboration. It seems to be a cycle that mailing lists go through. >--because it seems like it is only by chance or > good fortune that we have her back now I agree entirely. I wouldn't want to lose her wisdom -- and she seems to have a great deal of it. > ~anything goes~ not merely applying to the free exchange of ideas, but > ~anything goes~ extended to the level of insult/hatred/ridicule we allow > ourselves to send to one another as well. Okay. I understand you totally...and agree entirely...but I would like to see it as part of the agreement that goes along with signing up for the list...and that people will monitor themselves on that. When someone's post really, really pisses me off, I usually wait a day to respond...if I consider it to be worth posting about it at all. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 10 22:57:39 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:57:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Perhaps All-Too-Alt.Theosophy? In-Reply-To: <960710131017_573721688@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I do not know. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From liesel@dreamscape.com Wed Jul 10 23:21:27 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:21:27 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607110027.UAA13024@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To: Daniel Caldwell, Re: HPB biographies Dear Daniel, I'm sorry you have to battle all that negativity re HPB, which leads to nowhere, except that it makes everyone feel bad. I hope when you're done defending yourself against Alexis' left handed point of view, you'll take the time to give us the result of some of your research concerning HPB's ideas and happenings which will show the positive side of her & Theosophy, which is what people really would be more interested in knowing about, because that might lead to some spiritual growth. Liesel From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:17:26 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:17:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Theosophical noses In-Reply-To: <199607100206.TAA19822@primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607100206.TAA19822@primenet.com>, Shaman writes >Well, using that model, I may then attribute my fat butt to karmic >legacy, eh? :-) You said it. My butt probably falls into a similar category, but being British, is a lot more coy about it ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:12:29 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:12:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: (Chuck/3) In-Reply-To: <960710131014_573722314@emout07.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960710131014_573722314@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Thus, in a very real sense, I believe that in >the realm of the spiritual anything does go and everything is permitted. > >Chuck the Heretic Curiously, Chuck, it is clear that some of the earliest Christians took exactly this view - there is a passage somewhere where the apostle Paul tells them off for going overboard with it :-) (Probably 1 Corinthians). Off the top of my head I think he said: "All things are lawful for me, but not all are expedient." Should suit you ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:06:10 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:06:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <199607101529.LAA01941@leo.vsla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607101529.LAA01941@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >So >far, it seems that cyberspace communication has done little or >nothing to help improve the health of the Theosophical >movement. Can or will it do so in the future? TI is working at it (behind the scenes right now) so watch this space .. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:08:32 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:08:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <199607101547.IAA22525@primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607101547.IAA22525@primenet.com>, Shaman writes >As me olde grandmither used to say, "will this all matter in ten >years?" > >'Nuff said. I'll let you know when I reach 120 :-) > >-- -- >Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." I don't have a dog, but the cat is trying to train me ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From jem@vnet.net Wed Jul 10 20:08:09 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607102008.QAA10078@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Theos-xxx (Vnet) listproc back up hi - one of the server executables developed a bad Byte Monday. It has been rebuilt, and things are now working fine. The reason this happened is unknown. no e-mail was lost, but things did get delayed for a day or so. peace - john e. mead From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 10 04:51:32 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:32 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960709235435.357f6c72@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: More Comments by Mr. Dolgorukii on The Blavatsky Foundations and Daniel Caldwell Daniel: Very interesting post. I hope everybody who is really serious reads everything that is published and make up their own mind. Since there is no "official" definition of Theosophy, no one's personal opinion is any better than any one else's. That being the case, I hope any serious student keeps in focus the ideas and keep the author in the background. It is the application of these ideas in our personal life that is going to gives us a better understanding of the deeper meanings and thus confirm or deny the real nature of these ideas. Ideas rule the world. Would be looking forward to your response. BTW I have not seen the post on usenet in Texas yet. MK Ramadoss ------------------------- At 10:40 PM 7/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >I am posting to theos-l and theos-roots some interesting comments >by Alexis Dolgorukii concerning The Blavatsky Foundation, the List of Suggested >Reading on HPB and Theosophy, and myself. Food for thought. I will post my >own response later. > >Daniel H. Caldwell > >> From ">alexis dolgorukii : >> Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, >> >> Subject: ABOUT "READING LISTS" >> > >> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:17:48 -0700 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> I am going to assume that many, if not most of the people who peruse this >> newsgroup are NOT members of any organized Theosophical Group. I certainly >> hope that is the case. Otherwise, there aren't enough "official" >> Theosophists to make all this worth the effort. Because of that assumption I >> want to say something about the so-called "BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION" it is not >> at all the impressive "official" speaker for Theosophy that it seems, though >> it does present what is called "Core Theosophy". It was founded by a man >> named Walter Carrithers as part of a "Back To Blavatsky Movement", and upon >> his death was taken over by Daniel Caldwell, who is responsible for the >> messages on this newsgroup. In point of fact, I would be quite surprised to >> learn that the "Foundation" consists of more members than Mr.Caldwell >> himself. Because of that, I have a question for Mr. Caldwell, in his remarks >> about my own suggested reading, he uses the term "we" quite frequently. So I >> have to ask him (with all due respect to Mark Twain) if he "has a frog in >> his pocket?" >> >> Mr Caldwell is one of the most disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people >> I have ever met (electronically of course). He argues that my description of >> his "reading list" as 100% pro-theosophic propaganda is untrue Because 50% >> of it is Mme. Blavatskaya's own works. But, that's dreadfully disingenuous, >> for what are her works except theosophical propaganda? Propaganda, is any >> material that is promotional of an idea. Obviously Blavatskaya's works are >> promotional of her beliefs and so they word "propaganda" fit's them >> perfectly well. The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no >> opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually >> dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy >> unless one has considered all points of view concerning it. >> >> I consider myself a theosophist, a "process theosophist" to be sure, but >> nonetheless a theosophist. I have read all the opinions pro and con and >> decided that theosophy had something in it that was valid to me. This is not >> how Mr. Caldwell and other "Core Theosophists" view the subject. There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete >> list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with >> their availability. Mr. Caldwell won't care much for this, but I really >> couldn't care less for Mr. Caldwell's feelings in this matter. >> >> He edited and self-published a book: "THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY" >> which is pure and unabashed hagiography. It consists of quoted reminiscences >> of people who knew her. The only reference to any contrary opinion is in the >> bibliography in the back of the book which has a section entitled "MAJOR >> ATTACKS ON MADAME BLAVATSKY", but which entirely ignores most, if not >> everything written on the subject in favor of two references to the "Society >> of Psychic Research" negative report on HPB, one to the report itself, and >> the other to the "Coulombs" who were a disgruntled pair of employees who >> were instrumental in the results of that report. He also refers to an allied >> matter, the book by Vsevolod S. Solovioff (Soloviev) "A MODERN PRIESTESS OF >> ISIS", He was a relation of Blavatskaya's who wrote an extremely critical >> book about her and published it in their native Russia. It was (obviously >> for their own purposes) translated, abridged, and published for the Society >> for Psychic Research. But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. Well I think they should! But then I'm not pushing a >> "religion" and even though he refuses to admit it, that's exactly what "The >> Blavatsky Foundation" is doing. >> >> > > ______________________________________________________________________ ******** Peace to all living beings***************** M K Ramadoss From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 10 15:51:04 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:51:04 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607101551.IAA24775@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: More Comments by Mr. Dolgorukii on The Blavatsky Foundations and Daniel Caldwell RE: >> From ">alexis dolgorukii : >> Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, >> Subject: ABOUT "READING LISTS" >> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:17:48 -0700 Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >> I am going to assume that many, if not most of the people who peruse this >> newsgroup are NOT members of any organized Theosophical Group. I certainly >> hope that is the case. Otherwise, there aren't enough "official" >> Theosophists to make all this worth the effort. Because of that assumption I >> want to say something about the so-called "BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION" it is not >> at all the impressive "official" speaker for Theosophy that it seems, though >> it does present what is called "Core Theosophy". It was founded by a man >> named Walter Carrithers as part of a "Back To Blavatsky Movement", and upon >> his death was taken over by Daniel Caldwell, who is responsible for the >> messages on this newsgroup. In point of fact, I would be quite surprised to >> learn that the "Foundation" consists of more members than Mr.Caldwell >> himself. Because of that, I have a question for Mr. Caldwell, in his remarks >> about my own suggested reading, he uses the term "we" quite frequently. So I >> have to ask him (with all due respect to Mark Twain) if he "has a frog in >> his pocket?" Daniel Caldwell replies: I will not reply to Mr. Dolgorukii's negative comments on the Blavatsky Foundation. He is entitled to his opinions. But I am puzzled by Mr. Dolgorukii's comment: " the so-called 'BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION' it is not at all the impressive 'official' speaker for Theosophy that it seems..." The Foundation's primary aim is to disseminate information on the life, writings and teachings of Madame Blavatsky to interested individuals, inquirers and students. It is NOT the purpose of the Foundation to be the " 'official' speaker for Theosophy"---whatever that may mean and imply!!!! Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >> Mr Caldwell is one of the most disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people >> I have ever met (electronically of course). He argues that my description of >> his "reading list" as 100% pro-theosophic propaganda is untrue Because 50% >> of it is Mme. Blavatskaya's own works. But, that's dreadfully disingenuous, >> for what are her works except theosophical propaganda? Propaganda, is any >> material that is promotional of an idea. Obviously Blavatskaya's works are >> promotional of her beliefs and so they word "propaganda" fit's them >> perfectly well. The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no >> opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually >> dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy >> unless one has considered all points of view concerning it. >> >> I consider myself a theosophist, a "process theosophist" to be sure, but >> nonetheless a theosophist. I have read all the opinions pro and con and >> decided that theosophy had something in it that was valid to me. This is not >> how Mr. Caldwell and other "Core Theosophists" view the subject. There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete >> list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with >> their availability. Mr. Caldwell won't care much for this, but I really >> couldn't care less for Mr. Caldwell's feelings in this matter. Daniel Caldwell replies: Again, I will not reply to Mr. Dolgorukii's comments on my personality. He has his opinions and is entitled to them. Concerning the "reading list" on HPB and Theosophy, the FOCUS was on HPB's own writings and the teachings contained therein. A number of titles were also included on HPB's life as well as introductions and commentaries on HPB's teachings. Furthermore, the bibliography was limited to books IN PRINT (as stated at the beginning of the list of suggested reading). Personally, I am not aware of a book in print that is devoted entirely to a critical (outsider's view) analysis of HPB's presentation of Theosophy. If I have overlooked such a book, please let me know about it. Again, Mr. Dolgorukii wrote: >>The problem with Mr. Caldwell's list, is that it provides no >> opportunity whatsoever for any "second opinions" and that is intellectually >> dishonest. I believe one cannot make a rational selection of any philosophy >> unless one has considered all points of view concerning it.... There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line". I will, shortly, be posting a complete >> list of "con" books I consider sane and well worth reading, complete with >> their availability. It is unclear to me whether Mr. Dolgorukii is talking about "con" books that either criticize (1) HPB's life; or (2) criticize her teachings; or (3) criticize the various Theosophical organizations and groups. Maybe all three? Again, Mr. D. wrote: >> There are >> things that people need to know about Theosophy (the organization) that they >> cannot get from the "Party Line" The focus of the list of suggested reading is on HPB; the focus is NOT on the history of the various Theosophical organizations. This is another subject---interesting and controversial but not the primary concern of the bibliography. Furthermore, an individual can read and study HPB's writings and never belong to any of the existing Theosophical organizations. Or one can join all the existing organizations! It will be interesting to see what books Mr. D. will include in his "con" list. Hopefully some of them are still in print. I certainly agree that it is important to read the other side of the argument; I do that all the time. As far as criticisms of HPB's life (i.e. that she was a fraud, charlatan, etc), REFERENCES are made to primary sources in the biographical books in the reading list and interested individuals can pursue that aspect IF they are interested. Mr. Dolgorukii again wrote: >> He edited and self-published a book: "THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY" >> which is pure and unabashed hagiography. It consists of quoted reminiscences >> of people who knew her. The only reference to any contrary opinion is in the >> bibliography in the back of the book which has a section entitled "MAJOR >> ATTACKS ON MADAME BLAVATSKY", but which entirely ignores most, if not >> everything written on the subject in favor of two references to the "Society >> of Psychic Research" negative report on HPB, one to the report itself, and >> the other to the "Coulombs" who were a disgruntled pair of employees who >> were instrumental in the results of that report. He also refers to an allied >> matter, the book by Vsevolod S. Solovioff (Soloviev) "A MODERN PRIESTESS OF >> ISIS", He was a relation of Blavatskaya's who wrote an extremely critical >> book about her and published it in their native Russia. It was (obviously >> for their own purposes) translated, abridged, and published for the Society >> for Psychic Research. But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. Well I think they should! But then I'm not pushing a >> "religion" and even though he refuses to admit it, that's exactly what "The >> Blavatsky Foundation" is doing. Daniel Caldwell replies: COMPARE what Mr. D. says about my book THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY with the following facts: In the Introduction (p. 7) to my book, I wrote as follows: "Few individuals have been more misrepresented and slandered than Madame Blavatsky. Therefore, in selecting narratives for this book, only a few of the negative accounts have been used. There are several reasons for this decision. First and foremost, many of these hostile accounts are simply untrue. Those who would like to read some of the negative accounts should consult the following items in the bibliography: Marion Meade's biography (listed on p. 313) and the titles by Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyov (listed under the heading 'Major Attacks Against H.P.B. and Their Rebuttals,'pp. 315-316)." And I do give the negative comments of Richard Hodgson on p. 205 that she was a Russian spy and that her raps were nothing more than the cracking of her finger and thumb joints. In fact, for example, I was hoping that some readers would COMPARE what was found in my book with what Marion Meade wrote about HPB. Again, Mr. D. wrote: >> But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. In my book (p. 313) at the very beginning of the bibliography, I wrote: "This bibliography is a unique listing of Blavatsky-related books, audio cassettes and videos (VHS) *in-print* as of October, 1991....Many of these items can be purchased through your local bookstore. If you cannot obtain a particular title, try to order it by mail from....." Notice the words: IN PRINT. Every item listed in the bibliography (with two exceptions) was in print as of Oct. 1991. The two out-of-print items *included because of their importance* were Marion Meade's biography and Emma Coulomb's book. Both of these titles portray HPB as a fraud and charlatan. Again, in the same bibliography, I list Richard Hodgson's expose of HPB and Solovyoff's negative portrayal of HPB under the heading "Major Attacks Against HPB and Their Rebuttals." The reader interested in pursuing that aspect of HPB's career, therefore, could pursue those titles (by Meade, Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyoff), etc. Again, repeating what Mr. D. wrote: >> But there are literally dozens of other attacks on >> Blavatsky he could have included but chose not to, Because some of them >> raise very rational, well-argued points. These Mr. Caldwell would rather >> people didn't read. Are those "dozens of others attacks" to be considered MAJOR attacks? Certainly, in my mind, Meade, Coulomb, Hodgson and Solovyoff produced major attacks on HPB. Maybe there are others, but these four titles are some of the most important. Were those "dozens of other attacks" IN PRINT in 1991? The major reason for including only IN PRINT items was that it was assumed that these titles would be most accessible to readers of my book. Furthermore, since these titles were in print, a reader could easily purchase copies. Again, the bibliography in my book lists (1) Bruce Campbell's ANCIENT WISDOM REVIVED, which gives a negative portrayal of HPB and (2) K. Paul Johnson's IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS, which gives a controversial interpretation of HPB's career. Enough. I will let other readers of this posting, therefore, decide if I am guilt of trying to hide negative info on HPB. It will be interesting to see Mr. D.'s list of "con" books. Mr. D., please post the titles of the "literally dozens of other attacks on Blavatsky" on alt. theosophy and I will repost them on theos-l and theos-roots. I would also encourage Mr. D. to give us several CONCRETE examples of the "very rational, well-argued points" from these attacks on HPB. Daniel H. Caldwell From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Thu Jul 11 03:20:13 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:20:13 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E472ED.6BBB@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: To: Daniel Caldwell, Re: HPB biographies References: <199607110027.UAA13024@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > Dear Daniel, > > I'm sorry you have to battle all that negativity re HPB, which leads to > nowhere, except that it makes everyone feel bad. I hope when you're done > defending yourself against Alexis' left handed point of view, you'll take > the time to give us the result of some of your research concerning HPB's > ideas and happenings which will show the positive side of her & Theosophy, > which is what people really would be more interested in knowing about, > because that might lead to some spiritual growth. > > LieselI concur with Liesel. Congratulations on your even tempered replies to such daft nonsense. There is really no point in defending it as there is nothing to defend and that seems to be the line you are taking. To my sorrow I was unable to be so even tempered myself. Bee From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Thu Jul 11 03:50:28 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:50:28 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E47A04.4925@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle References: <199607102223.PAA04915@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaman wrote: > > > ...[Richard Ihle writes]... > > Welcome to the list to you both. > Yes. I will. But I do use killfiles...and if someone is too negative, > I just put them in my killfile. I really don't need that junk in > my life. > > > If you need > > corroboration, just ask Bee > > I don't need corroboration. It seems to be a cycle that mailing > lists go through. > > >--because it seems like it is only by chance or > > good fortune that we have her back now > > I agree entirely. I wouldn't want to lose her wisdom -- and she seems > to have a great deal of it. Thank you for those kind words, are you sure you are talking about me? :-) I don't come across that way to myself. I joined theos-l nearly a year ago so I guess I just plain missed you all and circumstances have changed so here I am again. I am increasingly glad that I am a theosophist in New Zealand as we are a closeknit bunch because we are such a small country. I have been president of Wanganui Lodge for 3 years and done 4 years as a representative of our Lodge at the quarterly presidents meetings at HQ in Auckland. This gives us all a chance to express our gripes, comments or accolades and get them off our chests. We also represent our members there and take their concerns up there for the notice of the Nat President etc. We have 14 Lodges over here and most times they are all represented. There have been some issues where it has taken years to come to an agreement after much give and take. I think we all give our President many headaches with our independent thinking and refusal to agree to something that we don't like. We spent Sunday morning up there discussing what our Lodges are doing and what help we would like from HQ and we all know each other quite well so we help each other when we can. We have also had some real strife from attempted Lodge take-over bids but it gets handled one way or another. It often amazes me how two descriptions of the same fact can be so entirely different but I have learned much about that since joining e-mail discussions. I also joined the Millenium List not long after Theos-l and I only lurk there but I am so impressed by the thoughtfulness of most of them in discussing much more diverse subjects than we do. There has been an occassional tiff but it has always stopped short of getting nasty. They talk about UFO's, weather patterns, end times prophesies, in fact anything that remotely relates to the name of the list And they usually disagree with each other quite pleasantly. Bee > > ~anything goes~ not merely applying to the free exchange of ideas, but > > ~anything goes~ extended to the level of insult/hatred/ridicule we allow > > ourselves to send to one another as well. > > Okay. I understand you totally...and agree entirely...but I would > like to see it as part of the agreement that goes along with signing > up for the list...and that people will monitor themselves on > that. When someone's post really, really pisses me off, I usually > wait a day to respond...if I consider it to be worth posting about > it at all. > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > balto1@rtd.com From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 11 05:31:11 1996 Date: 11 Jul 96 01:31:11 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: MORE ONENESS THROUGH Linking Message-Id: <960711053111_74024.3352_BHT144-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: > connection to the light and experience on the path as a kind of mutual > recognition. B: Mutual recognition of what? Keith: That we are all "MASTERS" and "CHELAS" and also animals, vegetables and minerals and in UNITY -trully one. > I think that being really alive is very threatening and is > accompanied by fear, anger, depression, false pride Fear of the unknown, I agree with. I am not sure about depression or false pride. I guess, for me, all of this is just so natural...and I am totally aware that every human being on the planet comes with the "software" to do it. He or she just has to make the choice...and it *is* that simple. Keith: I think for me I must overcome a self-importance that being attracted to spiritual studies and analyzing them makes me any better and probably less so that the "fireman who saves the child" kind of spirituality and love in action. I am playing with the idea that in a past life I was some kind of priest or priestess or something and misused my power probably by seducing my "flock" (NOW TELL ME THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!) It kinds of puts a different spin on things if the reason why I am personally struggling with this issue with so little success, rings a karmic bell. THe gift of pedagocial love from my students is a powerful temptation. I am a teacher and it is hard not use even the occasional gift, or dreamey sigh as invitation for deeper relationships so to speak that are not really couched (bad word, heh Chuck?) in spiritiual terms. In fact, I am totally frustrated in this area, not by any sense of nobility either, and can see how my attitude must be changed to an unselfish meeting of my students needs with the proper professional distance, of course. (Any horney teachers out there know what I mean?) Keith: > and hopefully an ultimate > ability to love-connect-respond to the One no matter the seeming seperateness. B: There is no separateness though. If you can imagine it (I don't know if you are visual or not), it's almost like that movie "Stargate" where there is a veil...and we can go through that veil...and *that's* the scary part...because it brings up so much unfamiliarity (on a conscious level anyway.) Our unconscious and Higher Selves communicate with the other side of that veil constantly. We can go back and forth with reasonable ease...once we get the hang of it. Does any of this resonate for you? Keith: Actually, I feel quite comfortable going back and forth and even merging the two in a powerful way. I have experimented with a numer of tools, good and bad. Drugs and alcohol are bad but quite effective, destructive and predictibly negative in their ultimate ability to transform consciousness and lift veils ( some skirts should be left unlifted and some openings unzipped :) Lucid dreaming aka astral travel is an area that is quite intoxicating also but similarly filled with maya. THus the goal is not to retreat or hide in the occult or spirituality, but to make it transparent, to become its tool, but with discrimation, good conduct and desirelessness which presupposes fearlessness, enthusiasm (the opposite of depression) and humilty (true recognition of my strength and weaknesses)> Namste Keith Price From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:19:28 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:19:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes >Unfortunately, T.S. will not be easy to change, since it has >accumulated a >lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its co-founders, HPB and Olcott, >who issued orders on behals of the Masters, encouraged unquestioning >obedience, etc., etc., so the subsequent leaders just perpetuated that >tradition--without being initiates like HPB. This karma got built in the >very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to >survive. > >Max So we thought up TI ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From ramadoss@eden.com Thu Jul 11 06:00:32 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:00:32 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960711010335.359f0dce@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle At 12:57 AM 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote: >Shaman wrote: >> >> > ...[Richard Ihle writes]... >> > Welcome to the list to you both. > >> Yes. I will. But I do use killfiles...and if someone is too negative, >> I just put them in my killfile. I really don't need that junk in >> my life. >> >> > If you need >> > corroboration, just ask Bee >> >> I don't need corroboration. It seems to be a cycle that mailing >> lists go through. >> >> >--because it seems like it is only by chance or >> > good fortune that we have her back now >> >> I agree entirely. I wouldn't want to lose her wisdom -- and she seems >> to have a great deal of it. > > Thank you for those kind words, are you sure you are talking about me? :-) I >don't come across that way to myself. I joined theos-l nearly a year ago so I >guess I just plain missed you all and circumstances have changed so here I am >again. >I am increasingly glad that I am a theosophist in New Zealand as we are a >closeknit bunch because we are such a small country. I have been president of >Wanganui Lodge for 3 years and done 4 years as a representative of our Lodge >at the quarterly presidents meetings at HQ in Auckland. This gives us all a >chance to express our gripes, comments or accolades and get them off our >chests. We also represent our members there and take their concerns up there >for the notice of the Nat President etc. We have 14 Lodges over here and most >times they are all represented. There have been some issues where it has >taken years to come to an agreement after much give and take. I think we all >give our President many headaches with our independent thinking and refusal >to agree to something that we don't like. >We spent Sunday morning up there discussing what our Lodges are doing and >what help we would like from HQ and we all know each other quite well so we >help each other when we can. We have also had some real strife from attempted >Lodge take-over bids but it gets handled one way or another. It often amazes >me how two descriptions of the same fact can be so entirely different but I >have learned much about that since joining e-mail discussions. One of the major problems, I see in the American Section is the top down and bottom up communication on organizational matters. I am glad to see the set up in NZ. Due to the size of NZ it is practical. In the USA we have a board of directors and based on my twenty years of experience with the American Section, the up-down communication is very poor indeed. What we get (ordinary members who do not have connections) is what is fed via the national publication AT. Some of the important issues came up as total surprise to ordinary members. I hope something is done about it before it is too late. MK Ramadoss From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 06:48:23 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:48:23 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711024823_235314302@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In ten years none of this will matter to anyone. Chuck the Heretic From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 11 07:01:15 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:01:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: re: stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <9607101925.AA13775@toto.csustan.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: <> > I can find endless examples of the later leaders issuing orders > on "behalf of the Masters" and encouraging "unquestioning > obedience," but where do you find this with HPB and HSO? At > least HSO before 1891. My own inquiry suggests that this kind of > nonsense began right after Olcott's death in 1907 and escalated > until 1930 when everything began to fall into chaos. After > Arundale's death in 1945, this kind of speaking on behalf of the > Masters and encouraging unquestioning obedience retreated back to > the ES, where it still remains. But even in the ES of HPB's day, > members took a pledges to their "Higher Self," not to the outer > head. Under Besant, that all changed. Jerry, I cannot provide much evidence right now--my impression is based on my reading during a long period of time. What first comes to my mind is how Olcott as a successor to Blavatsky has been chosen, and how Besant has been chosen next. As to the ES of HPB's days, I browsed through Compiler's Introduction to "Esoteric Instructions" (Blavatsky's Collected Writings, v.12, p. 479-511), and found a lot of refernces to Masters, not all of them being in tune with what you had to say (e.g. p.488 ["The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom H.P.Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section"]). Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 11 07:10:52 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle In-Reply-To: <960710180807_573928292@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 RIhle@aol.com wrote > Welcome to the list > I guess you will just have to take my word for the fact that things sometimes > ~go pretty far~ when we follow the "anything-goes" philosophy. Here, I am > not referring to forceful arguing about ideas etc.; rather, I am talking > about ~anything goes~ in terms of unkindness, name-calling, and general abuse > of other people on the list. <> > I agree that we need heretics as never before . . . and perhaps we even need > nice people as never before. . . . Richard, Thanks for your 'welcome." I completely agree with what you said about "forcerul arguing about ideas" versus "unkindness, name-calling, etc." As to nice people... I am not sure I agree. What do actually mean? pleasing others? It may a be facade for a lot of unpleasant things, from indifference to hypocrisy. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 11 07:16:31 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:16:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message 100000@library.berkeley.edu>, Maxim Osinovsky .edu> writes > >Unfortunately, T.S. will not be easy to change, since it has > >accumulated a > >lot of lousy karma initiated by two of its co-founders, HPB and Olcott, > >who issued orders on behals of the Masters, encouraged unquestioning > >obedience, etc., etc., so the subsequent leaders just perpetuated that > >tradition--without being initiates like HPB. This karma got built in the > >very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to > >survive. > > > >Max > > So we thought up TI ... > > Alan Alan, Does it work? Judging by your previous posts, I think TI should be a very loose organization, with no clear programme. Max From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 00:15:57 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:15:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Theosophical noses In-Reply-To: <960710131146_573722443@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960710131146_573722443@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Whereas my nose is the result of my genetic heritage. > >Chuck You poor thing :-( Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From jmeier@microfone.net Thu Jul 11 08:51:43 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:51:43 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607111251.AA03878@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Chuck,Re: 07/10 Hi Chuck -- Yeah, I could picture you in a tank, Patton-esque. >Personally, I have no use for either the ignoble (sorry, there I go again, >but it really bugs me) eight-fold path or the sermon on the mount. As far as >I'm concerned enlightenment has nothing to do with being a nice Pali and the >only thing the meek inherit is the dirt. So I view those teachings as being >totally without any practical value. I'm not even sure that the Buddha was >really enlightened. He may have had good press agent. And I'll bet good >money that Jesus was not the Son of God. It is one thing to be skeptical, but you seem to have crossed over into close mindedness, Chuck. If enlightenment has nothing to do with Buddha, as you say, then the word has no meaning at all, in any context. Regarding the meek: that's a literal (mis)translation of a Hebrew text. I have a decent Bible dictionary on line, but I don't have access to it at the moment; perhaps someone else will pipe in with a comment or an appropriate Net site. Also, change Jesus to Christ and I'll take that bet. It may be a while before we can settle up, but I'll remind you. :) >I operate under a basic assumption. All teachings are lies. Some lies got >popular and some did not, but there is not a word of truth in any of them. Good grief, Chuck, that's what I mean about close-mindedness; what you've written is a logical fallacy, because you are authoritatively (and ironically) trying to prove a negative. Can't be done. At best, all you can logically say is that "no teachings have yet been proven to you to have any practical value." To which a lot of folks would take issue, but not me. :) >So I'm willing to accept as a basic premise that no matter what the system >is, it will work for somebody and not necessarily for anyone else, and that >includes any system I might come up with. But the fact that the system works >for any number of given individuals does mean that there is any actual truth >behind the system, there is merely something there that resonates with the >particular person involved. Thus, in a very real sense, I believe that in >the realm of the spiritual anything does go and everything is permitted. >Chuck the Heretic I think you left out a word. If what you meant was "But the fact that the system works for any number of given individuals does *not* mean there is any... (for grammatical consistency), then Nope. What you wrote above is a direct contradiction of statistical validity. If a system (pick one) works for X number of people out of a Y population, it has a validity which carries a mathematical certainty. As HPB said, mathematics is the only exact science we have (so far). Most folks who denigrate statistics don't understand mathematics, in my experience. But I'll take your comment a step further: no matter how whacko a method or teaching is, there is somebody somewhere in a position to benefit from it... which is a pretty meaningless statement since the population is so large; 1 out of a billion or so is "statistically insignificant." Now it may be (as you wrote in an earlier post) that there are no statistics on enlightenment, but there is a (growing) body of evidence that suggests such historical practices as Buddhism, Yoga, and the like to be instrumental in effecting change in consciousness. Of course, whether or not you believe any of them is up to you. Fortunately for the rest of us, your belief is not required any more than mine (or anyone else's) is for you. :) I'm still curious how you can be so certain about the spiritual status (or lack thereof) of the Buddha and the Christ. Regards, Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 15:28:18 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:28:18 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711112814_431997058@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Chessman Chronicles continue I make and use and write books about psionics, which is a method of using certain machines to analyze psychic stuff. It's the middle of the night so forgive the short answer. I'll give you a more complete one when I am more awake. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 15:30:50 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:30:50 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711113050_431997570@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle Rich, You take the bad with the good. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 15:30:37 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:30:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711113035_431997760@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: (Chuck/3) Alan, I have used that quote in my own writings and if Paul ever saw them he would never forgive himself for saying it. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 15:30:40 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:30:40 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711113038_431997709@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle Sorry, such an agreement is anathema. Chuck the Heretic From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Thu Jul 11 13:55:39 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:52:39 -3 From: Subject: God saves? Message-Id: <91E158485D@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Jerry Ekins wrote >Since Jesus, is a Greek name, it is more likely that Gabriel gave >the savior in the Christian New Testament a Hebrew name such as >Joshua or Jehoshua. Jesus is a Greek translation of these. and Dr. Alain Bain wrote: >"Jesus" is reported to have been born at a time when the common language >of the people of Galilee was Aramaic, and it is still the Armaic form of >his name which is used by the remanant Aramaic speaking churches. This >is spelt Yod Shin Wau Aleph, but as Aramaic sticks an Aleph on the end >of just about every noun, the root of the name is Yod Shin Wau, which, >if you hear it pronounced by an Aramaic speaker comes out something like >"Ishoo" - similar to a sneeze. It means, not "God saves," but "He >saves," which ties in with the NT idea (skip the Angel Gabriel stuff, >which is almost certainly a later story tacked onto the beginning of the >Churches' gospels of Matthew and Luke.) HPB at Unveiled Isis Vol III, chapter 3 (star page116 end page 145) page 126 refer to Sepher Toledoth Yeshu, reproduce a passage where Jesus was interpreted as Yehoshuah. I have already reproduced Catechism that says;"430 Jesus means in Hebrew: "God saves.". I send this question to another list b-hebrew@virginia.edu and receive some arguments that states that probably the most correct interpretation is given by Catechism. Following lines reproduce these texts: >These are not necessarily antithetical (opposites). It depends on who >"He" is referring to. In the Tanakh, God alone saves. In the New Testament, >most of the action verbs surrounding salvation can be read with God as the >subject (not Christ, who is a vehicle of said saving power). >I think it's important to note that the name "Jesus" is not Hebrew, and >we are never given Jesus' name in Hebrew. What we have are speculations about >the derivation of the name Jesus from Hebrew (or Aramaic) and a tradition about >the name of Jesus which has not always faithfully represented what "Hebrew" >might have had to say about it (again, subject to a variety of >interpretations). >His name was joshua or properly Yahshua which means YHWH saves... >when Paul said (in romans) their is no other name by which men >can be saved he meant YHWH, because he knew that YaHshua meant YHWH saves. >Yahshua is spelled Yod-Hey-Shin-Wav-Hey and if you take the Shin you get >Yod-Hey-Wav-Hey which is the name of the god of israel. This is what he >meant when said that I am in the father and the father is in me. He was >equating himself with the hebrew letter Shin. >most commentators agree that the name Y'shua >(Jesus) is derived from some form of the verb "to save." There are some >commentators who disagree, saying that this is merely a "folk etymology" >after the fact. In either case, it is clear that the name is derived from >the name of Joshua, who was a five-star general over the Israelite army >after the death of Moses. Abrantes From blafoun@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 11 18:03:37 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:03:37 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607111803.LAA03740@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Does Theosophy have Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings? [On Theos-l, Theos-Roots and Alt.Theosophy, some Theosophical students have written that *true* Theosophy does *not* have core teachings. These students have characterized those who believe Theosophy has definite teachings as---- "Core Theosophists." These Core Theosophists have been labelled as "dogmatists" and "fundamentalists" and have been painted in "negative" terms. Furthermore, one or two students have labelled the world's religions as being totally negative and harmful. I append below excerpts from an article (1975) written by Boris de Zirkoff, the editor of HPB's "Collected Writings." I believe Mr. de Zirkoff's words reflect commonsense and a practical approach to the study of Theosophy. I also append a number of excerpts from HPB's first great work ISIS UNVEILED which, in my opinion, confirm much of what Mr. de Zirkoff has written. Several of HPB's passages also deal with the subject of "religions." Food for thought, Daniel H. Caldwell ] ************************************************************* Boris de Zirkoff on the subject: "Does Theosophy have Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings?" ************************************************************ "For some years past, a tendency has existed among some [theosophical] students...to consider theosophy as some sort of *generalized approach* to truth, a tradition, often somewhat uncertain, concerning various aspects of the Universe and man, a system of ideas and concepts which can hardly be defined with any degree of exactness or clarity. It is most likely that this tendency owes its origin to a desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the creation of any kind of creed. The motive may have been laudable, but the methods employed have been rather dubious" "We should never lose sight of the fact that the Esoteric Philosophy is a very definite doctrine, a system of thought based on specific postulates, on well-defined propositions....Even a cursory glance at the pages of *The Secret Doctrine* would confirm this fact. That work contains innumerable instances where H.P.B. (and the Adept-Brothers speaking through her) uses such expressions as: "the Secret Doctrine teaches," "secret records declare," "The Esoteric Philosophy states that...," "it is the teaching of the ancient occult doctrine," and others. If the student cared to underline these passages and then read them consecutively, or place them in juxtaposition, he would see at a glance that the "Secret Doctrine," as a system of thought, is about as definite as any science or philosophy is ever apt to be, and stands in direct opposition to a large number of other ideas which have become current in the world under the name of one or another religion or philosophy." "It is perfectly true that the objects of the organized body known as The Theosophical Society have never contained any definition of what Theosophy is or is not; but it is equally true that the teachings pro- mulgated by the Founders and their Superiors are defined in no uncertain language throughout the length and breadth of the original theosophical literature, leaving no room whatsoever for doubt as to what the system of thought known as theosophy is all about, what it teaches and what it does not." "If this state of affairs is at any time considered to be credal in nature, and therefore dogmatic, then we will have to assume that the statement of 'two and two making four' is also a creed, or that the laws governing gravitational and magnetic energies are dogmatic." "The propositions of the Esoteric Philosophy may *seem* to be dogmatic or may be interpreted as a creed by those of us---probably the overwhelming majority of us----who are yet unable to prove them to ourselves experimentally. This situation is not much different from the fact that a beginner in chemistry can hardly prove to himself the *alleged* fact that water is H2O, until he has grasped the methods necessary to verify it experimentally." "If we are prepared to comply with the conditions necessary for a personal investigation of the facts of nature defined by the Occult Doctrine, we shall be in a position to prove to ourselves experimentally the validity of its propositions. How many of us are ready to do so?" "In the meantime---and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief---we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of the occult aspects of Nature." Boris de Zirkoff ****************************************************************** [Below are appended a good number of quotes by HPB from her first work ISIS UNVEILED. I believe these quotes help to substantiate what Mr. de Zirkoff has written above.] "The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat intimate acquintance with Eastern Adepts and study of their science....we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we lent a ready ear...." (I, v, vi) "...from the first ages of man, the fundamental truths of all that we are permitted to know on earth was in the safe keeping of the adepts of the sanctuary....those guardians of the primitive divine revelation, who had solved every problem that is within the grasp of human intellect, were bound together by a universal freemasonry of science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken chain around the globe." (I, 37-38) "There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of thoughtful and solitary students, who pass their lives in obscurity, far from the rumors of the world, studying the great problems of the physical and spiritual universes. They have thier secret records in which are preserved the fruits of the scholastic labors of the long line of recluses whose successors they are...." (I, 557) "The esoteric doctrine...teaches...that the one infinite and unknown Essence exists from all eternity, and in regular and harmonious sucessions is either passive or active. In the poetical phraseology of Manu these conditions are called the 'day' and the 'night' of Brahma. The latter is either 'awake' or 'asleep.'...Upon inaugurating an active period, says the *Secret Doctrine*, an expansion of this Divine essence, *from within out- wardly*, occurs in obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces thus progressivly set in motion. In like manner, when the passive condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its material dispersed; and 'darkness,' solitary and alone, broods once more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a metaphor which will convey the idea still more clearly, an outbreathing of the 'unknown essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to disappear. *This process has been going on from all eternity, and our present universe is but one of an infinite series which had no beginning and will have no end.*" (II, pp. 264-265) "Gautama, no less than all other great reformers, had a doctrine for his 'elect' and another for the outside masses....Gautama left the esoteric and most dangerous portion of the 'secret knowledge' untouched...." (II, 319) "...*the Secret Doctrine is the Truth*...." (II, 292) "...many are those who...will remain in doubt and mortal agony as to whether, when man dies, he will live again, although the question has been solved by long bygone generations of sages....except the initiates, no one has understood the mystic writing. The key was in the keeping of those who knew how to commune with the invisible Presence, and who had received, from the lips of mother Nature herself, her grand truths...." (I, 573) "...This 'secret doctrine' contains the alpha and omega of universal science; therein lies the corner and the keystone of all the ancient and modern knowledge; and alone in this...doctrine remains buried the *absolute* in the philosophy of the dark problems of life and death...." (I, 511) "Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever land or under whatever climate, are the expression of the same identical thoughts, the key to which is in the esoteric doctrine....And the clergy of every nation, though pracrticing rites and ceremonies which may have differed externally, had evidently been inititated into the same traditional mysteries which were taught all over the world...." (I, 561) "...the Northern seer, Swedenborg, advises people to search for the LOST WORD among the hierophants of Tartary, China and Thibet; for it is there, and only there now...." "...the four *Vedas*; the *Books of Hermes*; the Chaldean *Book of Numbers*; the *Nazarene Codex*; the *Kabala*... ; the *Sepher Jezira*; the *Book of Wisdom*...; the *Brahmanas; the *Stan-gyour,* of the Thibetans; all these volumes have the same ground-work. Varying but in allegories they teach the same secret doctrine which... will prove to be the Ultima Thule of true philosophy, and disclose what is this LOST WORD." (I, 580) "...the 'secret doctrine' or wisdom was identical in every country...." (I, 444) "...What we desire to prove is, that underlying every ancient popular religion was the same ancient wisdom- doctrine, one and identical, professed and practiced by the initiates of every country, who alone were aware of its existence and importance....A single glance...is enough to assure one that it could not have attained the marvellous perfection in which we find it pictured to us in the relics of the various esoteric systems, except after a succession of ages. A philosophy so profound, a moral code so ennobling, and practical results so conclusive and so uniformly demonstrable is not the growth of a generation, or even a single epoch. Fact must have been piled upon fact, deduction upon deduction, science have begotten science, and myriads of the brightest human intellects have reflected upon the laws of nature, before this ancient doctrine had taken concrete shape. The proofs of this identity of fundamental doctrine in the old religions are found in the prevalence of a system of initiation; in the secret sacredotal castes who had the guardianship of mystical words of power, and a public display of a phenomenal control over natural forces, indicating association with preterhuman beings...." "As we proceed, we wil point out the evidences of this identity of vows, formulas, rites, and doctrines, between the ancient faiths. We will also show that not only their memory is still preserved in India, but also that the Secret Association is still alive and as active as ever....the chief pontiff and hierophant, the *Brahmatma*, is still accessible to those 'who know,' though perhaps recognized by another name; and that the ramifications of his influence extend throughout the world...." (II, 99-100) "Our examination of the multitudinous religious faiths that mankind, early and late, have professed, most assuredly indicates that they have all been derived from one primitive source. It would seem as if they were all but different modes of expressing the yearning of the imprisoned human soul for intercourse with supernal spheres. As the while ray of light is decomposed by the prism into the various colors of the solar spectrum, so the beam of divine truth, in passing through the *three-sided* prism of man's nature, has been broken up into vari-colored fragments called RELIGIONS. And, as the rays of the spectrum, by imperceptible shadings, merge into each other, so the great theologies that have appeared at different degrees of divergence from the original source, have been connected by minor schisms, schools, and off-shoots from the one side or the other. Combined, their aggregate represents one eternal truth; separate, they are but shades of human error and the signs of imperfection..." "What has been contemptuously termed Paganism, was ancient wisdom replete with Deity; and Judaism and its offspring, Christianity and Islamism, derived whatever of inspiration they contained from this ethic parent. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism are the double source from which all religions sprung; Nirvana is the ocean to which all tend." (II, 639) [Many other excerpts from ISIS UNVEILED could be cited on these same themes.] From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 11 23:28:35 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:28:35 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960711192834_154013467@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: To Chuck,Re: 07/10 JIm, When I say lies, I mean that quite literally. Religious organizations have a hisotry of being founded by people with some stroke of the divine whose ideas are then totally perverted by the next generations until any truth that may have been in them is eradicated. We don't really know what the Buddha said or did. All we have is the writings of the followers, the same is true of Jesus. As for being close minded, I have a mind like a steel trap. Once it closes, it never opens again and my mind closed on religious figures almost forty years ago. And it is possible to have enlightenment without the Buddha. After all, someone invented the concept, so why not reinvent it. If I am stuck with the possibility of an authoritative approach coming from anywhere, I don't trust anyone but myself to do it. Besides, I already have followers who think I'm semi-divine and it drives me nuts! I even had one young man see a vision of me while he was meditating and did not know it was me until he described it to me. That is a hell of a lot more scary than anything I can come up. But being in that unenviable and highly embarrassing position has given me an insight on the kind of utter bullcrap that can develop around these figures. My opinion stands. The Buddha would have been terribly upset by the things his followers ended up saying about him, because the lesser stories, the ones least likely to be edited, reveal someone basically pretty practical when he was lucid, which may have been rarely, and Jesus got what he deserved. The only religious founder I have any respect for is Mohammed. I dislike Islam, but I love the way he spread it. And there is the little matter of the houris, so when I get tired of Valhalla I may sneak over there. In the meantime, I'm busy competing with Holy Elvis for the position of the One True God and trying very hard to understand why anyone would believe something just because someone else says it. So to anyone who asks me, I say don't believe anything I say, don't believe anything Buddha is reported to have said, don't ever believe anything a Xian says ever, don't believe what Crowley said, you won't have to worry about believing what Krishnamurti said because you'll never figure it out (even he didn't know what he was talking about half the time, I'm willing to bet), don't believe anything. Get off your ass and start looking for yourself. It's out there. We don't know what it is until we run into it and when we do we can't describe it anyway, so good luck. If that makes me close minded and illogical, fine. I really don't care. It is better to have a closed mind than an empty head and logic is a fun academic exercise which is utterly useless in real life. There ain't nothing logical about magick. But it works, kind of like bumblebees flying. Authority is worthless. Chuck the Heretic From RIhle@aol.com Thu Jul 11 23:34:31 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:34:31 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960711193430_154017556@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Does Theosophy have Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings? Richard Ihle writes> Thank you for sharing this, Daniel. As usual, I am "stuck in the middle" on this issue as well. >Daniel H. Caldwell shares Boris de Zirkoff> ] >"For some years past, a tendency has existed among >some [theosophical] students...to consider theosophy as >some sort of *generalized approach* to truth. . . . [snip] >"We should never lose sight of the fact that the Esoteric >Philosophy is a very definite doctrine, a system of >thought based on specific postulates, on well-defined >propositions....Even a cursory glance at the pages of >*The Secret Doctrine* would confirm this fact. That >work contains innumerable instances where H.P.B. >(and the Adept-Brothers speaking through her) uses such >expressions as: "the Secret Doctrine teaches," "secret >records declare," "The Esoteric Philosophy states >that...," Richard Ihle writes> This is good because it clearly illustrates the "begging the question" technique which is often used. Do you notice that the essay begins as though it is going to examine the question of what ~theosophy~ is or isn't, but then immediately starts talking about the specificity of ~The Esoteric Philosophy~ as HPB conveys it in THE SECRET DOCTRINE? Thus, when one is forced to agree that the referred-to Esoteric Philosophy contains Core Doctrines, if one isn't too sharp in matters of logic one may assume that it has therefore been proven that the general ~theosophy~ is also made up of ~only~ these same Core Doctrines. I strongly disagree that ~theosophy~ is limited in any such way; this epistemological term characterizes a ~type~ of knowledge--viz., "knowledge which has its base in, or at least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight, or higher perception." It has been used in this general way, they tell me, long before the advent of HPB. Now capitalized ~Theosophy~ is a different story. It ~can~ be made a synonym for HPB's version of "The Esoteric Philosophy," "Wisdom-Religion," "Archaic Doctrine" or whatever else one calls what is in THE SECRET DOCTRINE--just like a "brand name," so to speak. However, as I have stated many times previously, I do not think it is in the best interest of The Theosophical Society to do this--simply because it is too complicated a doctrine-package to interest newcomers as compared with the Society's original "draw" as a society of Truth Seekers (traditionally, those who found the Core Doctrines as their Truth could proceed to the more specific "Wisdom-Religion" found within the Esoteric Section--a happy arrangement, I always thought). Furthermore, of course, ~Theosophy~ used merely as the name brand for the Theosophical Society's "Basic Teachings" compromises the mystical/universal element HPB often seemed fond of when she used the term--e.g.: ". . .Theosophy is the shoreless ocean of universal truth, love, and wisdom, reflecting its radiance on the earth, while the Theosophical Society is only a visible bubble on that reflection." (KEY) >Boris de Zirkoff> >"In the meantime---and far from any acceptance of ideas on >merely a blind belief---we can investigate the coherence >of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its >appeal to both reason and intuition, its application in both >great and small ways, and its practical value in relation >to others. Thereby we may become gradually convinced of the >truth of the propositions and postulates of the Esoteric >Philosophy, long before the time when it will have become >possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the >laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and >energies of the occult aspects of Nature." Richard Ihle> Well, as I said, I am caught in the middle: On the one hand, except for one word, de Zirkoff is just using wishful thinking if he believes that the elaborate, translifetime details of anthropogenesis, for example, can be validated simply by determining that the system has coherence, logical interrelatedness, appeal to the reason (this would be a tough one, anyway), and practical applications. On the other hand, the one word which saves the Core Doctrines and makes de Zirkoff a real theosophist, after all, is ~intuition~. I am convinced that the Core Doctrines can appeal to the intuition--perhaps not with the sudden-conversion quality which often characterizes desire-mentalism, but with an inexorable, ineffable ~growing certainty~. I am more and more persuaded that the Basic Teachings one has not derived for oneself are not simply the subject matter for conventional belief/disbelief; they still must be approached ~theosophically~ by every individual for himself or herself--that is, by means of transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight, or higher perception. In short, live with them for a while . . . and then live with them for an even longer while if they still keep you interested: study, meditate, and then perhaps begin to See them for yourself one day. . . . So . . . yes, I believe there are Core Doctrines contained within THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Yes, I have a growing certainty that there is truth in many of them. But no, I don't think de Zirkoff or anyone else has yet shown me why it is so important to compromise the "process" term ~theosophy~ or the universal term ~Theosophy~ by making either or both into portmanteau synonyms for doctrines and teachings which already have their own names. To the extent that HPB's version of Cosmogenesis, Anthropogenesis, The Esoteric Philosophy, Wisdom-Religion, Archaic Doctrine etc. can be approached by theosophy and partake of Theosophy, they will always be associated with The Theosophical Society--don't you think? Thanks again, Daniel, for finding this interesting material. Godspeed, Richard Ihle From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 12 00:58:51 1996 Date: 11 Jul 96 20:58:51 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Get off your ass Message-Id: <960712005850_72723.2375_FHP60-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >So to anyone who asks me, I say don't believe anything I say, don't believe >anything Buddha is reported to have said, don't ever believe anything a Xian >says ever, don't believe what Crowley said, you won't have to worry about >believing what Krishnamurti said because you'll never figure it out (even he >didn't know what he was talking about half the time, I'm willing to bet), >don't believe anything. Get off your ass and start looking for yourself. >It's out there. We don't know what it is until we run into it and when we >do we can't describe it anyway, so good luck. This must be the "everything you know is wrong" philosophy. Betcha you could start a really good movement around that. Trust no one. The truth is out there. . . Sound like the beginning of a show on American television about some guy chasing UFOs and psychic phenomena. But unfortunately, the writers forget about the "get off your ass part". Perhaps ALL the writers that came after the above mentioned holy figures forgot about that part. Or whoever was paying them told them to forget it. BTW, Mr. Heretic, are you by chance going to be at the Annual Meeting? - Ann E. Bermingham From blafoun@azstarnet.com Fri Jul 12 01:41:39 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:41:39 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607120141.SAA03952@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Thanks Liesel and Bee/To: Daniel Caldwell, Re: HPB biographies See my comment at the very end of this! Liesel wrote: > > Dear Daniel, > > I'm sorry you have to battle all that negativity re HPB, which leads to > nowhere, except that it makes everyone feel bad. I hope when you're done > defending yourself against Alexis' left handed point of view, you'll take > the time to give us the result of some of your research concerning HPB's > ideas and happenings which will show the positive side of her & Theosophy, > which is what people really would be more interested in knowing about, > because that might lead to some spiritual growth. Bee Brown wrote: >Congratulations on your even tempered replies to such daft nonsense. There is >really no point in defending it as there is nothing to defend and that seems >to be the line you are taking. To my sorrow I was unable to be so even >tempered myself. >Bee Thanks Liesel and Bee for your kind words of encouragement. It really helps to try to be even tempered even in spite of the "daft nonsense"! Daniel From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 17:33:47 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:33:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: "Religion" In-Reply-To: <960711113035_431997760@emout08.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960711113035_431997760@emout08.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >I have used that quote in my own writings and if Paul ever saw them he would >never forgive himself for saying it. > >Chuck the Heretic I disagree. I suspect he would wonder how the "Christianity" we know today ever got the way it is. Today on the BBC news we had pictures of the Northern Ireland Police and the British Army kicking Catholic protesters off their own street because they didn't want so-called "Protestant" Orange Order marches going through it. Now all this stuff goes back to William of Orange and long finished battles, and such behavior makes me ashamed to be British, not because of any of the religious stuff, which I see as little more than an excuse to claim some kind of superiority over others, but because a British government which is supposed to be working for peace arranges a situation which could not have done more harm. Why should *any* group of people be *forced* to allow a sectarian march down their street? 200+ people sat in the road to try to stop it and received rough treatment from *their own* police and army. I am totally disgusted, and afraid for the people or Ireland - the illegal guns will be out again on both sides. Alan :-( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 17:20:16 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:20:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes >Alan, > >Does it work? Judging by your previous posts, I think TI should be a very >loose organization, with no clear programme. > >Max It works at the moment in the sense that its members have a means of expression, and a sense of being part of something which does not have the restrictions of formal organisation (you will notice that a number of list subscribers add "Member, TI" or similar to their messages.) TI does not need a programme as such - members are free to follow their own programmes, or even to set them up. At the moment, some of us are trying to set up a World Wide Web page, with links to other theosophical and spiritual sites, plus a library of books and writings. My own hope is that once this gets under way, TI will "take off" in a more visible manner that at present. For now, all you need to do is ask to be added to the membership list Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 11 17:35:21 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:35:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle In-Reply-To: <960711113038_431997709@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960711113038_431997709@emout15.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Sorry, such an agreement is anathema. > >Chuck the Heretic You may be right - what agreement? With whom? Huh? Some of your one- liners would be better understood if you said who you were responding to. Anon. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From aprioripa@pipeline.com Thu Jul 11 13:05:12 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:05:12 GMT From: aprioripa@pipeline.com Message-Id: <199607111305.NAA00913@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Subject: Re: Alexis Dolgorukii on "THE DAY THAT THE T.S. DIED" (repost) Dear Alexei, Indeed, I believe that many involved in various religious fields have been Initiates. One of the predictions made in AAB's books is that toward the end of this century there would be a Master or an Initiate at the center of every major world organization and nation -- Lets hope! >I don't know if you've >read Alice Bailey's autobiography or not, Yes, I am a dedicated long time student of the books -- perhaps soon an AAB discussion e-list will come about. >but there's a anecdote in the book >about her meeting with my Cousin, the Grand Duke Alexander Alexandreivitch, >who supplied her with financial support. When she asked him why, he is said >to have told her that "I work with D.K. too". I know my Great, great >Grandfather (the younger brother of H.P.B.'s Grandfather) worked with St. >Germaine. So I am in accord with your entire message. It is wonderful how all of these relationbships flow! Namaste, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From blafoun@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 11 18:03:37 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:03:37 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607111803.LAA03740@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Does Theosophy have Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings? [On Theos-l, Theos-Roots and Alt.Theosophy, some Theosophical students have written that *true* Theosophy does *not* have core teachings. These students have characterized those who believe Theosophy has definite teachings as---- "Core Theosophists." These Core Theosophists have been labelled as "dogmatists" and "fundamentalists" and have been painted in "negative" terms. Furthermore, one or two students have labelled the world's religions as being totally negative and harmful. I append below excerpts from an article (1975) written by Boris de Zirkoff, the editor of HPB's "Collected Writings." I believe Mr. de Zirkoff's words reflect commonsense and a practical approach to the study of Theosophy. I also append a number of excerpts from HPB's first great work ISIS UNVEILED which, in my opinion, confirm much of what Mr. de Zirkoff has written. Several of HPB's passages also deal with the subject of "religions." Food for thought, Daniel H. Caldwell ] ************************************************************* Boris de Zirkoff on the subject: "Does Theosophy have Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings?" ************************************************************ "For some years past, a tendency has existed among some [theosophical] students...to consider theosophy as some sort of *generalized approach* to truth, a tradition, often somewhat uncertain, concerning various aspects of the Universe and man, a system of ideas and concepts which can hardly be defined with any degree of exactness or clarity. It is most likely that this tendency owes its origin to a desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the creation of any kind of creed. The motive may have been laudable, but the methods employed have been rather dubious" "We should never lose sight of the fact that the Esoteric Philosophy is a very definite doctrine, a system of thought based on specific postulates, on well-defined propositions....Even a cursory glance at the pages of *The Secret Doctrine* would confirm this fact. That work contains innumerable instances where H.P.B. (and the Adept-Brothers speaking through her) uses such expressions as: "the Secret Doctrine teaches," "secret records declare," "The Esoteric Philosophy states that...," "it is the teaching of the ancient occult doctrine," and others. If the student cared to underline these passages and then read them consecutively, or place them in juxtaposition, he would see at a glance that the "Secret Doctrine," as a system of thought, is about as definite as any science or philosophy is ever apt to be, and stands in direct opposition to a large number of other ideas which have become current in the world under the name of one or another religion or philosophy." "It is perfectly true that the objects of the organized body known as The Theosophical Society have never contained any definition of what Theosophy is or is not; but it is equally true that the teachings pro- mulgated by the Founders and their Superiors are defined in no uncertain language throughout the length and breadth of the original theosophical literature, leaving no room whatsoever for doubt as to what the system of thought known as theosophy is all about, what it teaches and what it does not." "If this state of affairs is at any time considered to be credal in nature, and therefore dogmatic, then we will have to assume that the statement of 'two and two making four' is also a creed, or that the laws governing gravitational and magnetic energies are dogmatic." "The propositions of the Esoteric Philosophy may *seem* to be dogmatic or may be interpreted as a creed by those of us---probably the overwhelming majority of us----who are yet unable to prove them to ourselves experimentally. This situation is not much different from the fact that a beginner in chemistry can hardly prove to himself the *alleged* fact that water is H2O, until he has grasped the methods necessary to verify it experimentally." "If we are prepared to comply with the conditions necessary for a personal investigation of the facts of nature defined by the Occult Doctrine, we shall be in a position to prove to ourselves experimentally the validity of its propositions. How many of us are ready to do so?" "In the meantime---and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief---we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of the occult aspects of Nature." Boris de Zirkoff ****************************************************************** [Below are appended a good number of quotes by HPB from her first work ISIS UNVEILED. I believe these quotes help to substantiate what Mr. de Zirkoff has written above.] "The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat intimate acquintance with Eastern Adepts and study of their science....we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we lent a ready ear...." (I, v, vi) "...from the first ages of man, the fundamental truths of all that we are permitted to know on earth was in the safe keeping of the adepts of the sanctuary....those guardians of the primitive divine revelation, who had solved every problem that is within the grasp of human intellect, were bound together by a universal freemasonry of science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken chain around the globe." (I, 37-38) "There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of thoughtful and solitary students, who pass their lives in obscurity, far from the rumors of the world, studying the great problems of the physical and spiritual universes. They have thier secret records in which are preserved the fruits of the scholastic labors of the long line of recluses whose successors they are...." (I, 557) "The esoteric doctrine...teaches...that the one infinite and unknown Essence exists from all eternity, and in regular and harmonious sucessions is either passive or active. In the poetical phraseology of Manu these conditions are called the 'day' and the 'night' of Brahma. The latter is either 'awake' or 'asleep.'...Upon inaugurating an active period, says the *Secret Doctrine*, an expansion of this Divine essence, *from within out- wardly*, occurs in obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces thus progressivly set in motion. In like manner, when the passive condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its material dispersed; and 'darkness,' solitary and alone, broods once more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a metaphor which will convey the idea still more clearly, an outbreathing of the 'unknown essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to disappear. *This process has been going on from all eternity, and our present universe is but one of an infinite series which had no beginning and will have no end.*" (II, pp. 264-265) "Gautama, no less than all other great reformers, had a doctrine for his 'elect' and another for the outside masses....Gautama left the esoteric and most dangerous portion of the 'secret knowledge' untouched...." (II, 319) "...*the Secret Doctrine is the Truth*...." (II, 292) "...many are those who...will remain in doubt and mortal agony as to whether, when man dies, he will live again, although the question has been solved by long bygone generations of sages....except the initiates, no one has understood the mystic writing. The key was in the keeping of those who knew how to commune with the invisible Presence, and who had received, from the lips of mother Nature herself, her grand truths...." (I, 573) "...This 'secret doctrine' contains the alpha and omega of universal science; therein lies the corner and the keystone of all the ancient and modern knowledge; and alone in this...doctrine remains buried the *absolute* in the philosophy of the dark problems of life and death...." (I, 511) "Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever land or under whatever climate, are the expression of the same identical thoughts, the key to which is in the esoteric doctrine....And the clergy of every nation, though pracrticing rites and ceremonies which may have differed externally, had evidently been inititated into the same traditional mysteries which were taught all over the world...." (I, 561) "...the Northern seer, Swedenborg, advises people to search for the LOST WORD among the hierophants of Tartary, China and Thibet; for it is there, and only there now...." "...the four *Vedas*; the *Books of Hermes*; the Chaldean *Book of Numbers*; the *Nazarene Codex*; the *Kabala*... ; the *Sepher Jezira*; the *Book of Wisdom*...; the *Brahmanas; the *Stan-gyour,* of the Thibetans; all these volumes have the same ground-work. Varying but in allegories they teach the same secret doctrine which... will prove to be the Ultima Thule of true philosophy, and disclose what is this LOST WORD." (I, 580) "...the 'secret doctrine' or wisdom was identical in every country...." (I, 444) "...What we desire to prove is, that underlying every ancient popular religion was the same ancient wisdom- doctrine, one and identical, professed and practiced by the initiates of every country, who alone were aware of its existence and importance....A single glance...is enough to assure one that it could not have attained the marvellous perfection in which we find it pictured to us in the relics of the various esoteric systems, except after a succession of ages. A philosophy so profound, a moral code so ennobling, and practical results so conclusive and so uniformly demonstrable is not the growth of a generation, or even a single epoch. Fact must have been piled upon fact, deduction upon deduction, science have begotten science, and myriads of the brightest human intellects have reflected upon the laws of nature, before this ancient doctrine had taken concrete shape. The proofs of this identity of fundamental doctrine in the old religions are found in the prevalence of a system of initiation; in the secret sacredotal castes who had the guardianship of mystical words of power, and a public display of a phenomenal control over natural forces, indicating association with preterhuman beings...." "As we proceed, we wil point out the evidences of this identity of vows, formulas, rites, and doctrines, between the ancient faiths. We will also show that not only their memory is still preserved in India, but also that the Secret Association is still alive and as active as ever....the chief pontiff and hierophant, the *Brahmatma*, is still accessible to those 'who know,' though perhaps recognized by another name; and that the ramifications of his influence extend throughout the world...." (II, 99-100) "Our examination of the multitudinous religious faiths that mankind, early and late, have professed, most assuredly indicates that they have all been derived from one primitive source. It would seem as if they were all but different modes of expressing the yearning of the imprisoned human soul for intercourse with supernal spheres. As the while ray of light is decomposed by the prism into the various colors of the solar spectrum, so the beam of divine truth, in passing through the *three-sided* prism of man's nature, has been broken up into vari-colored fragments called RELIGIONS. And, as the rays of the spectrum, by imperceptible shadings, merge into each other, so the great theologies that have appeared at different degrees of divergence from the original source, have been connected by minor schisms, schools, and off-shoots from the one side or the other. Combined, their aggregate represents one eternal truth; separate, they are but shades of human error and the signs of imperfection..." "What has been contemptuously termed Paganism, was ancient wisdom replete with Deity; and Judaism and its offspring, Christianity and Islamism, derived whatever of inspiration they contained from this ethic parent. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism are the double source from which all religions sprung; Nirvana is the ocean to which all tend." (II, 639) [Many other excerpts from ISIS UNVEILED could be cited on these same themes.] From liesel@dreamscape.com Fri Jul 12 05:29:24 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:29:24 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607120635.CAA03812@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: yours of July 9 >To: liesel@dreamscape.com >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:20:24 +0300 >From: Kay Ziatz >Reply-To: Kay Ziatz >Errors-To: Kay_Ziatz@p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org >Subject: yours of July 9 > > Hello! > >L> I guess a lot depends on who Yeltsin surrounds himself with > True, but most dangerous persons are already removed. Probably left >1 or 2. > >L> What did you think of Stan Treloar's "Church on My Grave". > I agree with him a lot. I tried to translate it to Russian, but his >language is very hard to me, so I've translated only small parts (for >widespreadins in newsgroups here). > >L> Before we discussed it on the Internet, I never realized that >L> Theosophy is not a religion, but that certain people try to make it >one. > Here in Russia there was no opinion that it's a religion, but any- >way, we all were inclinated to "core teachings". Who are christians >here, they normally don't join theosophy, so our theosophy haven't >religious hue; most theosophists here are recruited from atheists (as >I did), so if there's some distortion of originlal teaching, it's >rather to magic and other selfish use of the doctrines. For a long >time we had a wickid government, so many of us dislike any bosses and >because of that deny conception of God, too. I first knew about >things like karma from Krishna devotees, their teachings seemed me >interesting, but I removed a main part of their religion - a God and >such a way got a teaching, very similiar to theosophy :) > >L> I wonder what you noticed of the elections in Moscow. > BTW, I've included to my parcel a little sheet of parer as a souve- >nir - it's an invitation to ellections. > >L> I was also wondering what your dacha is like. How many rooms it has, >L> what facilities and what kind of grounds & etc. Can you do gardening? > Yes. These sites were initially created for gardening. Evens special >official visited them to make sure that we have a certain predefined >quantity of apple trees, etc. By the same reason the house size was >restricted to 36 square meters. Brick houses were prohibited, too, as >well as high (two or more "etages", including "Erdgeschoss") ones. >Our dacha is situated in so called "garden cooperative" - there's 600 >or more (our "village" is large - normally they are much smaller) si- >tes 18 x 45 meters each. Our house has 3 rooms (2 of them are small - >5 & 8 sq. m. and one a little larger - approx 15 sq.m) and so called >"terrace" - a room without walls, to rest at fresh air. I think you >may call it "bungalow". Some houses here reminds those which were bu- >ilt by pioneers in XIX century in north of USA and in Canada - made >from entire logs. There are brick houses, too. Generally, houses here >are more "fundamental" than in USA - like in England. My sister who >lives now in USA complains that the houses there have a very thin >walls, so when is hot, a conditioner is required. We normally use no >conditioners here (excluding offices). But our dacha isn't so funda- >mental - it's of wooden boards. There's a beautiful countryside aro- >und our village - forests, fields and two artifical lakes (they were >made for fish). If my finances will run better, i'll send you some >photographs. > >L> Whereabouts is it? >Approx. 70 km north of Moscow. We go 65 km north by train and then 15 >km N-E by a bus. It takes 3 hours "from door to door". > >L> What's DHL Co. I sent off your envelope via the US Post Office. >It's commercial post. Some businessmen use it. So I didn't recommend it. > >L> looking forward to the recordings. >I've already sent them. > >L> the mute button on the remote control. >It's interesting observation I made. The radio & TV sets in "superpo- >wers" like USSR & USA were similiar (large sized, often floor-based) >and different from european and japanese. But now our native radio >equipment is already forced out from market by japanese technique. > >L> usually revolve around a set of twins >L> I had a ball. > I didn't understand these two expressions :() > >L> exercising machines. > Here they are advertising, too, but only by local channels & local >newspspers. > >L> We get all sorts of fruit shipped in. > We now too, but some are very expensive. > >L> We have a very good highway system. > We not, and i'm glad. It's the only factor that restricts quantity >of cars. Most goods are delivered by a railroads. Most railroads here >run on electric power. > >L> If you don't mind talking about it, I'd be interested in knowing what >you >L> do, and what your parents do. > My father is a scientist, he specializes in medaeval russian histo- >ry and historical georaphy. He works in State Historical Museum. >My mother is so called "engeneer". This word is widely used here for >all people who have a high education and they work is technical ori- >ented - for example my mother writes referates for international in- >formation system for nuclear technology, she haven't any deal with >any machines, even PC's. But before she worked at pipe works and pro- >vided a proper technology. I'm an engeener, too, but really i'm a >programmer and provide a proper work of PC's in our department. Our >institute researches Earth physics, seismical problems, nuclear test >control, etc. Salary is small, approx. $60 a month (good salary here >begins from $200) but I loaded by work a very little, and can dedica- >te all my time to hobbies and studying theosophy. I have a grandmother, >too, she's a "retired" like you, we call it "pensioner". She worked >as engineer, too - in chemical industry. She lives separately from >us, but in summer we live together at dacha. I haven't a wife and >don't planning to marry. > >L> It was even an adjustment when I first got my little cat, Chou chou. > When I was a small boy, I wished to have a cat, but my parents >didn't allow me, because we lived in so called "communal flat". It >means that the different families occupy different rooms in one flat, >sharing bathroom, WC and kitchen. Now we live in a "separate", i.e. >own flat with 3 rooms and kitchen, but I've lost my interest to pet >animals. Though I'd probably like to have "collie" (I don't know how >properly spells in English this type of dog - it's like Lassie from a >film). They seem to me more intelligent and less agressive. > >L> I like to watch C-span, which I think you don't get. >Yes. But if one buys a satellite dish, probably it will be available. > >L> They invite peeople to their programs to talk about it. >Here such a programs are popular, too - they are like "Donahue show". > >L> The Senators came off as being rather stupid, I thought. >Our king Peter the 1st gave the folloving edict: >"In parlaments, speeches should not been read from written, to make >stupidity of everyone clearly seen" From wichm@xs4all.nl Fri Jul 12 05:29:18 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:29:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Message-Id: <199607120529.HAA28319@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: submission/karma To SHAMAN It is hard to elaborate on the experience of moments of light that pervaded me. It came spontaneously and brought me to quite a different approach to life, accustomed as I was to a Theosophical mental outlook. I found that one could only submit to this light. In Theosophical terminology it might have come from the Higher Self, but also from a guiding spirit. It has remained with me all my life, be it that I feel it stronger now I have grown old. It has never manifested it self in transmission of knowledge or advice, only in moments of serenity and strength. Whether it is a divine energy, or channeled through an intermediary I have no idea. It has let me to Eastern mysticism and specifically to Javanese mysticism (Subud) in which surrender/submission to the higher self, or God becomes more natural. It issues from the premise that man is a two fold being with an outer face directed at the world and an inner face establishing contact with the whole he is deep in his being part of. Like a cell in a body. The latter part is quite neglected in modern man. To set the process of reaching within into motion usually requires guidance or initiation. In the latter case a spiritual field is created between two or more persons in which the novice may come to an inner breakthrough. KARMA. I feel that we are too much tied up in our thinking to a supposed universal law of justice. Usually it is applied to human beings, whereas one wonders about justice towards animals whose life, even in natural surroundings is one of suffering (and delight) and there is faint hope that they will be compensated, unless it is in the hereafter. To me Karma implies that man's actions and thought ties him to a quality of mental and spiritual environment, to a mechanism of mind. Each action affirms that status quo or may push him over a threshold towards another state he cannot free himself from. The bad Karma is the suffering to become released from that plane, once one feels its prison-like structure. It means creating a new mental/spiritual condition laboriously, always in danger of falling, or being held back. It requires patience, intent, perseverance AND can hardly be undertaken unless there is some inner stimulation. In non-worldly conditions it is quality of mind that counts, that makes oneself staying atuned to spheres of equal intensity. Karma is the way of suffering to reach it. Good Karma is freewheeling on what one has reached. But the state of Grace is always a balance on the proverbial razor's edge. MICHAEL From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 12 05:36:59 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:36:59 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960712013657_575046357@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: here I go Well, folks, Chuck the Great and Terrible, the Sublime Heresiarch, is off to the TSA convention and summer school. That means that I'm not going to be doing many long posts or getting into any arguments on the board for a week or so because I'm just going to have time to do a cursory overview of the e-mail before going to bed at night and just after breakfast before making the trek to Olcott. That is, of course, if they don't excommunicate or kill me while I'm there, because guess who gets to be the scapegoat for all you good folks who have been having so much fun at the expense of our beloved and fearless leaders. If anything interesting happens, I'll try to stay awake long enough to post it here, but don't expect reviews of the programs, they make the tapes available anyway. Prayers for my safety will be gratefully received. Chuck the Heretic From ramadoss@eden.com Fri Jul 12 12:00:48 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:00:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Usenet Search Engine Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi There are more than 18,500 usenet groups in use in cyberspace. With such a large number of usenet groups dealing with there are groups dealing with almost every imaginable subject and new groups are mushrooming every day. There is a very powerful search tool available which will search many usenet groups and find the messages one is looking for. The power of the search engine is aweful. If I want to find all the references to say Theosophy, just use the search engine, bingo you will get a list of messages where Theosophy is mentioned. This is a very useful tool to see what kind of discussion is going on in usenet groups about one's favourite subject. Researchers love this tool. The power of the tool extends further. If you want to get a profile of the my postings on usenet groups, you just have to search by my name. The messages posted by me will be listed. To do the searches you need a browser like Netscape etc. With the browser, just go to: http://www.dejanews.com/ and that is all to it. Enjoy the search engine. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From shaman@primenet.com Fri Jul 12 13:13:54 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:13:54 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607121313.GAA16202@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Usenet Search Engine In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 12, 96 09:01:45 am Content-Type: text > > > Hi Hi... > To do the searches you need a browser like Netscape etc. With the browser, > just go to: > > http://www.dejanews.com/ You don't have to have a browser for this. You can use lynx as well. At your command line in the unix shell, you can do this: lynx www.dejanews.com > and that is all to it. Yes. > Enjoy the search engine. It is also really useful for seeing if there are any responses to your posts without having to call up each newsgroup. At the search line, put your own email address and they will all come up. The fact that you are probably quoted in any reply, it will bring up the replies as well. Hopefully, today will be a little more active on this list? Eh? Eh? It was *dead* yesterday! bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 12 13:19:44 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 9:19:44 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607121319.JAA03599@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Winning and losing Now seems to be a time of opportunity to reflect on what changes in theos-xxx discussions might make them more truly theosophical in spirit and tone. I that Theosophical discussions are all too often quite untheosophical. Meaning that people who study Theosophy often fail to demonstrate that their communications are illuminated by mystical insight, and rise above the combative, possessive kama-manas. The worst thing for me about this list has been the occasional prevalence of aggressive win/lose confrontations of different viewpoints. The best thing has been the occasional confluence of mutually enlightening information and perspectives among people with... different viewpoints. The crucial factor that determines which way we go is the win/lose approach as opposed to a win/win approach. Lately, the lists have been a constant battlefield in which disagreement on issues has evoked harshly negative personal attacks. There have certainly been rounds of this in the past, and no one seems to have figured out how to nip these things in the bud. Now, while there's a lull in the fighting, I think it might help us to ask ourselves what we have just been through and how to avoid it in the future. My chief observation here is that a minority of Theosophists feel that they MUST WIN in all encounters with variant ways of thinking about HPBTheosophy or theosophy. How people choose to fight varies widely; one by endless nitpicking, another by no-holds-barred aggression, another by patronizing and condescending, and so on. But the bottom line is "Your [understanding of] Theosophy/theosophy is a threat to mine, which cannot be allowed to coexist with it, and must be (emphatically or subtly) refuted in public by me." What happens when someone with this outlook "wins"? Meaning, feels that they have effectively silenced someone by aggressive communication? In reality, they have LOST, lost all opportunity of a mutually enlightening and helpful discussion. All the people who left this list in the last few months due to the win/lose dynamics would probably agree on this. And what happens when someone "loses"-- by saying in effect, "OK, whatever you say is fine, I give up, arguing with you is hopeless, you `win' and I'll devote no more effort to trying to communicate?" In some sense they "win" by doing so-- in terms of freeing them from a negative emotional state. To be continued? (Interrupted) From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 12 14:54:44 1996 Date: 12 Jul 96 10:54:44 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/3) Message-Id: <960712145444_76400.1474_HHL77-1@CompuServe.COM> > Thus, in a very real sense, I believe that in >the realm of the spiritual anything does go and everything is permitted. Chuck, you sound as eclectic as I am. Jerry S. Member, TI From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 12 15:28:25 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:28:25 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960712112825_236258350@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Get off your ass Ann, Yep, I'll be there, in kevlar. I think some people are mad at me. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 12 15:29:17 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:29:17 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960712112915_236258879@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Religion" Alan, We have similar situation in this country. American case law allows any group to march anywhere with full police protection. As get older, I become more and more convinced that religion is a disease of the human soul. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 12 15:29:14 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:29:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960712112914_236258924@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle Alan, Or anon, as the case may be. I was referring to the idea that people signing onto the list sign an agreement to be nice. Sounds good in prospect, but halacious to enforce. Chuck From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 12 16:36:05 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 12:36:05 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607121636.MAA24139@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Win/win=theosophical? To continue where I left off: If discourse is to be theosophical, that is to be informed by the spirit of divine wisdom, it must be distinguished by a bedrock mutual respect for one another as spiritual pilgrims. That requires a recognition of the fragility of what any of us calls "my knowledge" and an appreciation for the many levels of meaning at which any proposition may be either true or false. Communicating with subtlety and depth requires a willingness to go beyond a win/lose paradigm to a win/win model which allows us to learn even from those with whom we disagree. It seems that the win/lose approach leads to denigrating Theosophists with whom we have disagreements. The result is ultimately a lose/lose situation in which the entire movement is unable to conduct discourse a way that reflects our stated values and objectives. From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 12 17:08:06 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:08:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Win/win=theosophical? In-Reply-To: <199607121636.MAA24139@leo.vsla.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > To continue where I left off: > > If discourse is to be theosophical, that is to be informed by > the spirit of divine wisdom, it must be distinguished by a > bedrock mutual respect for one another as spiritual pilgrims. > That requires a recognition of the fragility of what any of us > calls "my knowledge" and an appreciation for the many levels of > meaning at which any proposition may be either true or false. > Communicating with subtlety and depth requires a willingness to > go beyond a win/lose paradigm to a win/win model which allows > us to learn even from those with whom we disagree. > > It seems that the win/lose approach leads to denigrating Theosophists with > whom we have disagreements. The result is ultimately a > lose/lose situation in which the entire movement is unable to > conduct discourse a way that reflects our stated values and > objectives. Very good. Completely agree. I'll try to do my best to follow your suggestion. I would even reinforce what you had to say and replace 'mutual respect" (which suggests too passive an attitude fraught with a potential for mutual indifference) with 'encouragement of mutual growth" (more active attitude implying certain responsibilities). Max From ramadoss@eden.com Fri Jul 12 18:43:02 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:43:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Usenet Search Engine In-Reply-To: <199607121313.GAA16202@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > Hi... > > > To do the searches you need a browser like Netscape etc. With the browser, > > just go to: > > > > http://www.dejanews.com/ > > > You don't have to have a browser for this. You can use lynx as well. > At your command line in the unix shell, you can do this: > > lynx www.dejanews.com > > > > and that is all to it. > > > Yes. > > > > Enjoy the search engine. > > > It is also really useful for seeing if there are any responses to > your posts without having to call up each newsgroup. At the search > line, put your own email address and they will all come up. The > fact that you are probably quoted in any reply, it will bring > up the replies as well. > > Hopefully, today will be a little more active on this list? Eh? > Eh? It was *dead* yesterday! > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > balto1@rtd.com > > > > I had on one occassion almost missed a response to my message as my ISP did not pick up the message. But I found it on dejanews and responded. Thanks for additional information. A very interesting feature is getting a statistics on a particular poster. From the poster profile one can go the messages as well. The dejanews is fun to use. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 12 01:34:58 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 02:34:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: God saves? In-Reply-To: <91E158485D@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <91E158485D@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >HPB at Unveiled Isis Vol III, chapter 3 (star page116 end page 145) >page 126 refer to Sepher Toledoth Yeshu, reproduce a passage where >Jesus was interpreted as Yehoshuah. This book (Sepher) is an anti-Christian polemic. G.R.S. Mead did a translation of it at one time. > >I have already reproduced Catechism that says;"430 Jesus means in Hebrew: >"God saves.". I send this question to another list b-hebrew@virginia.edu >and receive some arguments that states that probably the most correct >interpretation is given by Catechism. Following lines reproduce these >texts: Selective quotations! You *wish* to believe the etymology of "Jesus" as "YHWH saves" and so you quote those references which support your wish. In my references to the Aramaic language (which is the one Jesus most probably *spoke*) I have drawn on sources from Aramaic scholars and Aramaic-speaking Christians. They ought to know ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From shaman@primenet.com Fri Jul 12 19:10:16 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:10:16 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607121910.MAA28967@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Usenet Search Engine In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 12, 96 02:54:52 pm Content-Type: text > A very interesting feature is getting a statistics on a > particular poster. From the poster profile one can go the messages as well. > The dejanews is fun to use. How do you do that? I wasn't aware of being able to get anything other than a search. That is to say, I know that I can put in something like shaman@primenet.com and get a copy of all the posts put out on that address...but I didn't know anything about a profile or statistics. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Fri Jul 12 19:14:30 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:14:30 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607121914.MAA00302@primenet.com> Subject: Quoting Messages In-Reply-To: from "Dr. A.M.Bain" at Jul 12, 96 03:00:31 pm Content-Type: text Hi All... The list seems pretty quiet today...so I thought this would be a good opportunity to bring up something for discussion that we could perhaps make an agreement about. I've noticed that this (and other mailing lists I am on) are very adept at using these text editors and so on. I don't know about the rest of you all but I really don't need to see the entire text of a message in order to have a sense of what the person is reponding to. Maybe it's just a personal quirk but I find it very difficult to stay really open-minded to what someone has to say when I have to sift through quoting that goes three and four messages deep. I am asking, with all respect, that we make an agreement to be a bit more careful with that. I don't write this to be critical or nasty-natured. It's just something that I've noticed others mentioning, too, including a new person, so I thought it was worth mentioning. Thanks! :-) -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From RIhle@aol.com Fri Jul 12 19:24:42 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:24:42 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960712152438_432940561@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Win/win=theosophical? >Paul Johnson writes> >If discourse is to be theosophical, that is to be informed by >the spirit of divine wisdom, it must be distinguished by a >bedrock mutual respect for one another as spiritual pilgrims. >That requires a recognition of the fragility of what any of us >calls "my knowledge" and an appreciation for the many levels of >meaning at which any proposition may be either true or false. >Communicating with subtlety and depth requires a willingness to >go beyond a win/lose paradigm to a win/win model which allows >us to learn even from those with whom we disagree. > Richard Ihle writes> In my opinion, the foregoing paragraph was one of the best ever to appear on theos-l or anywhere else, for that matter. I especially liked the way Paul put this little segment: "If discourse is to be theosophical, that is to be informed by the spirit of divine wisdom, . . ." Oh, yes . . . that ~is~ the crucial difference between the conventional things we can or do know and the ~theosophical things~, isn't it? ~theosophical~: "informed by the spirit of divine wisdom." Oh, yes . . . I ~will~ be stealing this and trying to pass it off as my own. . . . Good work, Paul! Godspeed, Richard Ihle From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Fri Jul 12 19:58:36 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:58:36 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607121958.AA13915@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: stuck in the middle Max writes: >Jerry, >I cannot provide much evidence right now--my impression is based >on my reading during a long period of time. What first comes to >my mind is how Olcott as a successor to Blavatsky has been >chosen, and how Besant has been chosen next. JHE What do you mean by Olcott being a "successor to Blavatsky"? Olcott was elected President of the TS in 1875 when it was founded. HPB was Corresponding Secretary from that time until 1885, when the General Council asked her to resign. The only other office she held in the TS was General Secretary of the British Section from about 1887 until her death in 1891. It is true that Besant did follow Olcott as President of the TS. She was supposed to have been nominated by Olcott for that office, as provided by the bylaws. But as you may know, the circumstances behind that "nomination" are very suspicious. JHE >>But even in the ES of HPB's day, >> members took a pledges to their "Higher Self," not to the >> outer head. Under Besant, that all changed. MAX >As to the ES of HPB's days, I browsed through Compiler's >Introduction to "Esoteric Instructions" (Blavatsky's Collected >Writings, v.12, p. 479-511), and found a lot of refernces to >Masters, not all of them being in tune with what you had to say >(e.g. p.488 ["The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, >of whom H.P.Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section"]). JHE Yes, HPB claimed to be the direct representative of the Masters. But as I stated earlier, the members made a pledge to their higher selves, *not* to HPB or to the Masters. Under Besant, this changed and she had the members pledge obedience to her. Another important difference is that in HPB's time, the ES was *not* formed for the purpose of guiding or manipulating the TS, but to give further instruction to those who pledged themselves to make an effort towards spiritual development. Under Besant, the ES became an outlet for CWL's revelations, and ES members who wanted to be in favor with the Masters were also expected to be active in the Liberal Catholic Church, Co-Masonry and if they seemed to be promising workers for the cause, they would be invited to join the Egyptian Rite. Therefore, I agree with your contention that all of these revelations from the Masters, and the idea of obedience to them is a major factor in the ruin of the TS. I also agree that this "karma got built in the very structure of the Society, so there is little hope for T.S. to survive." But I disagree that this encouragement of "unquestioning obedience" began with HPB and HSO. HPB considered this for the ES but realized that such a method was not suitable for a western audience, so she dropped the idea immediately. But Besant adopted this idea when she took over the ES. However, I see a major difference between HPB being the "mouthpiece" for the Master's teachings, and the changes AB and CWL brought about to made them spokes persons for what the Masters desire or do not desire the members to do. To put it another way, HPB encouraged her students towards autonomy, while Besant encouraged them towards obedience to the Masters. Obviously this was a distinction that most members were (and perhaps still are) unable to make during Besant's time. Those who did recognize this difference, either stayed on as the loyal opposition, or left the TS completely. Those who stayed on as the loyal opposition, had the CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST to express their views when Besant would not publish them in the journals under her control. For those who left, some of them started opposing magazines or Organizations. The Arcane school and the Anthroposophical Society are two examples. Jerry ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From ramadoss@eden.com Fri Jul 12 22:31:25 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:31:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Usenet Search Engine In-Reply-To: <199607121910.MAA28967@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > A very interesting feature is getting a statistics on a > > particular poster. From the poster profile one can go the messages as well. > > The dejanews is fun to use. > > > How do you do that? I wasn't aware of being able to get anything other > than a search. That is to say, I know that I can put in something > like > > shaman@primenet.com > > and get a copy of all the posts put out on that address...but I didn't > know anything about a profile or statistics. > > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > balto1@rtd.com > > I would first try search under shaman. This will show a list of postings. Then at the bottom there is a choice I belive it is user profile or something like it. When you click or hit on it you will get a statistical two column display - first column will be the usnet group and the second the number of messages posted. When you move to the usenet group and click or hit on it, you will get a listing of all the postings in that group. Recently I read about how revealing the messages about the poster. We tend to make comments revealing information about ourself. In one case, some one took the time to pick up all the comments and put them together it revealed a lot of information about the person - his age, sex, where he lives, education, personal interests etc etc. So cyberspace, if you are active poster, then many will know about you. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 00:39:36 1996 Date: 12 Jul 96 20:39:36 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Get off your . . . Message-Id: <960713003936_72723.2375_FHP46-2@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the H: >Ann, >Yep, I'll be there, in kevlar. I think some people are mad at me. I wonder why. BTW, what is "kevlar"? A planet? A fabric? A new beverage? - Ann E. Bermingham From liesel@dreamscape.com Sat Jul 13 11:39:41 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:39:41 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607131245.IAA04823@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Russian correwspondence Dear TI folks I think Konstantin's last letter only makes sense with an explanation. He asked me to get him a copy of "Esoteric Chemistry", & since it's out of print, I sent him my copy, which I don't look at much anyway. So now he tells me he's translating it ... so my copy is being put to good use. (& I dodn't much care whether he gives it away or sells it.) He put a few tapes in the mail for me of music from the Eastern countries. Let's see if they get to me. I was surprised how fast he got my book. I wish some of you would also write to him. It seems that his job, as a computer programmer, I think, doesn't tske too much time, & he spends most of his time doing Theosophy ... whatever form it takes, I don't know, & don't care. I write about my style of it, but since I am a Theosophist, I won't impose my style on somebody else. Liesel >To: liesel@dreamscape.com >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:23:54 +0300 >From: Kay Ziatz >Reply-To: Kay Ziatz >Errors-To: Kay_Ziatz@p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org >Subject: The caasettes > >Hello! > l> I'm looking forward to receiving your casettes. Let's hope somebody >doesn't > l> decide to like them while they're in transit. Ditto your book. > >I've received the book today. I thought that it's larger - like one volume >of "Isis" :). But it makes my task of translating more simple. >Thanks a lot. >I'm going to my dacha tomorrow and planning to stay there for a >week, so I may delay in answering your following messages. > >C. U. Later. Konstantin. > > > From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sat Jul 13 21:55:35 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:55:35 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E81B57.5C58@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Fwd: MMNewsletter for Woden's Day, 7/10/96] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2E27FE9465C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2E27FE9465C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anyone who feels that this is not a theos thing, I apologise for this posting but I thought some might be interested in the goings on out there in the big wide world. There are some mighty problems looming at the end of this millenium. Bee --------------2E27FE9465C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 03:08:01 -0400 > Message-Id: > From: jcpaul@cris.com (JC) > Subject: MMNewsletter for Woden's Day, 7/10/96 MMNewsletter for Woden's Day, July 10, 1996 TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. "The MILLENNIUM Matters..." info 2. EARTH Notes 3. The Buzz 4. Why Beez Buzz 5. Re: Why Beez Buzz 6. Drought, Flood, and Food Supply 7. Schumann resonance 8. UFO flap in Australia 9. New Websites 10. MEDIT Topic -- Intelligent Use of Natural Resources -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- HAVE YOU FOUND A MILLENNIUM MATTER where you live? -- Email local prophecies, local weird weather and environmental news, and locally-published millennium-related news and stories to "THE MILLENNIUM MATTERS..." NEWSLETTER -- The MMNewsletter currently has 450 subscribers from 24 countries..., on all continents. Subscribers receive a periodic compilation of the most interesting posts from various MM resources as well as other interesting bits from the Internet. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change your address, email: . ALT.FUTURE.MILLENNIUM -- is now on Usenet. If your site doesn't have it yet, write a note to your Internet Service Provider's, news administrator and ask them to add it. "THE MILLENNIUM MATTERS..." WEBSITE -- is under constant "evolve-ment" an= d optimized for Netscape; URL: -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- EARTH Notes BANGLADESH -- Floods that have killed at least 12 people and left thousan= ds homeless are spreading across Bangladesh. Rivers including the Ganges, Brahmaputra, Jamuna, and Meghna swelled further, flooding new areas in 16 districts. Officials said many villagers were facing a shortage of dry fo= od and drinking water after many wells were submerged. Thousands of acres of crops had been flooded but it is too early to assess damage. [from JoyaPope@aol.com] CHINA -- Some of the worst floods in over a century hit the Chinese provinces of Hubei, Guizhou, Zhejiang, Anhui and Jiangxi. Many areas face= a bleak harvest, with newly-planted rice and corn seedlings washed away and 1.35 million hectares (3.3 million acres) swamped. Nationwide, 3708 peopl= e were injured and tens of thousands left homeless after the collapse of 211,000 houses. 15 million people had been affected and at least 237 peop= le have died. [from JoyaPope@aol.com] EUROPE -- Europe's climate zones may be shifting northwards, bringing southern England's temperatures closer to those in central France and threatening the northwest with floods. Global warming is pushing up temperatures in some areas and leading to much more dramatic changes at t= he local level, such as droughts,floods, and more frequent and severe storms. [from Kruge@aol.com] LITHUANIA -- Police officers in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius, have been placed on alert after two them spotted a UFO hovering above a nearby village. [from Peter Edgar Dick, Holland] MEXICO -- 400 men, women, and children assaulted a grain train and carrie= d its cargo off to their homes. At the end of the day, 40 tons of corn had disappeared into the community of San Nicolas de la Garza. Mexico will ne= ed to import nearly six million tons of corn to meet national demand and has only eight days of corn in reserve. The nation could slide into famine if rains fail. [Geri Guidetti, arkinst@concentric.net] MONGOLIA -- After a winter of little snow, 23 million acres of forest and range lands in northern Mongolia (one-fifth its coniferous forests) have been destroyed by three months of the most extensive fires in memory. Twenty-six people have died, 800 have been injured or made homeless, and thousands of head of livestock have died. The ability to fight the fires was hampered by poor-to-nonexistent communications equipment, obsolete an= d inadequate fire-fighting equipment, untrained personnel, and rugged terrain. NEW ZEALAND -- Belching ash from Mount Ruapehu in New Zealand's central North Island Sunday forced the closure of all airports north of the volcano, including the main international gateway in Auckland. Vulcanologists also reimposed a level three alert on the five point scale. [from JoyaPope@aol.com] OMAN -- Four Britons, two Americans, and a Dutch woman were among 26 peop= le of different nationalities drowned during a flash flood at a recreation area known as Snake Canyon in Oman. [from Kruge@aol.com] SRI LANKA -- Sri Lanka imposed daily, eight-hour power cuts in March afte= r water levels in hydropower reservoirs, which provide most electricity, plunged due to the failure of the winter northeast monsoon and delayed onset of the southwest monsoon. Now that rain has started to fall, the state power utility will decide whether to reduce the duration of power cuts which have caused an estimated daily loss to business of more than o= ne billion rupees. UKRAINE -- Ukraine, once the breadbasket of Europe and producer of a quarter of the former Soviet Union's grain, faces the worst harvest in th= e last 17 years. Officials blamed a drought in the first part of the year f= or the predicted 28 million tons, down from 36.5 million tons last year and = 50 million plus in 1990. Tight grain supplies mean the Ukraine will have little left for exports. [from newmill@mail.concentric.net] UNITED STATES -- Fueled by drought, firefighters in Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, and Utah, battled brush a= nd woodland fires in the worst summer wildfire season in memory -- three tim= es normal. So far this year, over 68,000 wildfires in the United States have burned 2.3 million acres, compared with 41,594 fires that had burned 674,452 acres by the same time last year. The five-year average for the period is 652,945 acres consumed by 39,570 fires. [from newmill@mail.concentric.net] UNITED STATES -- A severe winter with prolonged cold, pesticides, and two kinds of parasitic mites (the European tracheal mite first seen in the U.= S. in 1984 and the Varroa mite from Asia which was first seen in the U.S. in 1987) is estimated to have killed 50 to 80 percent of the bee population (wild honeybees have virtually disappeared) in the northern U.S. -- worst loss on record. Bees pollinate about a third of U.S. crops. UNITED STATES -- Red tide has been blamed for the 304 deaths among the whiskered, walrus-like manatees along the southwest Florida coast. Scientists believe colder water forced the animals to gather in warmer waters where red tide concentrations were highest. [from Peter Edgar Dick (Holland)] VENEZUELA -- More than 10,000 Amazonian Indians are homeless and destitut= e after the Orinocco river broke its banks and flooded vast swathes of Venezuela's deep Amazonian south near the Brazilian border. Water levels rose 10 feet (3 metres) in some places after two weeks of incessant rain flooded the Orinocco, Venezuela's largest river. Over 4000 hectares (9900 acres) of land cultivated by the Yanomani and Yekuanas Indians have been affected. [from Kruge@aol.com] [NOTE FROM JC: Just some thoughts on all of this -- Most of us know that ash in the atmosphere from volcanoes cools the global climate. So does smoke from forest fires. Earth seems to be having a lot of belching volcanoes and forest fires this year and I wonder whether or not this mig= ht not be a scientific response-mechanism traceable to global warming with i= ts increase in greenhouse gases. I also wonder whether anyone has calculated the degree to which all this smoke will offset global warming in the next few years.] RECENT GLOBAL EARTHQUAKE EVENTS -- The following near-real-time Earthquak= e Bulletin is provided by the National Earthquake Information Service (NEIS= ) of the U.S.G.S. as part of a cooperative project of the Council of the National Seismic System. DATE-(UTC)-TIME LAT LON DEP MAG Q COMMENTS yy/mm/dd hh:mm:ss deg. deg. km 96/07/04 15:50:39 8.77N 141.36E 33.0 5.5Ms B W Caroline Isl 96/07/04 15:53:49 8.89N 141.41E 33.0 5.3Mb B W Caroline Isl 96/07/04 18:11:04 30.03N 88.22E 33.0 5.0Mb B Xizang 96/07/04 23:46:38 23.83S 69.93W 44.0 4.5Mb B N Chile 96/07/05 03:00:29 41.71N 112.39W 1.5 3.5Ml Utah 96/07/05 05:15:05 51.32N 176.89W 33.0 4.5Mb B Andreanof Isl, Aleut 96/07/05 11:54:05 50.19N 177.83E 33.0 4.2Mb C Rat Isl, Aleut 96/07/05 18:34:35 10.13S 160.75E 33.0 5.8Mb A Solomon Isl 96/07/05 21:37:09 35.20N 84.00W 5.0 2.8Lg Tennessee 96/07/06 05:03:33 3.04N 128.31E 33.0 5.5Mb B N of Halmahera, Indon 96/07/06 11:56:44 15.72N 147.52E 33.0 5.7Mb A Mariana Isl 96/07/06 21:36:28 22.06N 142.80E 240.5 5.7Mb A Volcano Isl 96/07/07 04:19:33 53.14N 166.13W 53.2 4.7Mb B Fox Isl, Aleut 96/07/07 06:27:08 31.84N 115.74W 5.0 3.9Ml A Baja California, Mex 96/07/07 10:50:03 58.67N 157.86E 33.0 5.6Ms B Kamchatka 96/07/08 05:52:30 57.76N 156.31W 33.0 4.0Ml A Alaska Peninsula 96/07/08 06:18:32 51.21N 176.75W 33.0 4.0Mb C Andreanof Isl, Aleut 96/07/08 11:40:44 21.65N 94.81E 150.0 5.1Mb C Myanmar 96/07/09 07:56:43 52.15N 170.06W 33.0 4.2Mb B Fox Isl, Aleut 96/07/09 12:02:47 51.90N 151.55E 500.0 5.1Mb A Sea of Okhotsk 96/07/09 12:29:11 51.06N 176.45W 33.0 4.0Mb C Andreanof Isl, Aleut > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 14:04:44 PDT > From: jane@swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) > Subject: The Buzz While it is true that bees are not native, neither are most of the crops that they pollinate, sigh. You might want to consider that a Native American diet (and garden) is particularily desirable as the crop situati= on continues to worsen. Grains, at least, are wind-pollinated, but there is = a wheat disease starting to spread through America. I believe I read that i= t originated in Pakistan, and how it got here is not clear. Corn is definitely the way to go. This bee die-off is nearly unprecedented. I've hung out on the bee biologist list for a long time, and there has been no time recorded where= a die-off of bees of this magnitude has been recorded. One also can't attribute it to mite resistance from miticide use. The first folks to experience near-100% die-off were those with untreated hives. After two years, alarms started to sound, and use of miticide was the *only* way th= at most beekeepers have been able to survive at all. And now, even that doesn't look like it's going to work, with PMS popping up to "supplement" the mites. (BTW, the law requires that Apistan can only be used when no honey is being brought into the hive -- in the winter -- and all miticide must be removed from the hive before the spring honey flow begins.) My own bees, who are normally gentle enough that I work them without any protective gear at all, were *very* grouchy last year. They'd try to run = me off if I came anywhere near the hive, and I had to wear protective clothi= ng for the first time! This year, they seem to be back to being their sweet and gentle selves. So, what was it about last year? I read somewhere, once, that some believe that bees are somehow tuned in = to the electromagnetics of the planet, and it's one of the systems they use = to navigate by. So, if the bees are grouchy, or dying, what does this say about the electromagnetics of the planet? > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 02:00:55 +0000 > From: "David Yarrow" > Subject: Why Beez Buzz..... Earlier there was discussion of the rapid, sharp decline in North America= n bee populations. As stated, this is a critical indicator of crisis in the biosphere. In part, this is because bees pollinate flowers. Grasses and legumes self pollinate; many other angiosperms (flowering plants) are wind pollinated. But a great number need insects -- mainly bees -- to transfer male pollen to female ovaries. In gardens these include curcurbits (squash, melon, cucumber), brassicas (cabbage, broccoli, turnip, kale, radish, mustard, brussels sprout, etc.) and nightshades (tomato, pepper, potato, eggplant). Without bees, the reproductive cycle of these plant families is broken -- or at least severely weakened. Actually, the bee population crash isn't sudden. Bee mites -- usually blamed as the plague decimating hives -- have been a serious and growing threat to bees for more than a decade. But like HIV in AIDS, bee mites ar= e an "opportunistic infection" and only a symptom -- not a cause. Some writers noted bees are magnetically sensitive and wondered if collapsing bee colonies indicate changing geomagnetism. Wise words -- a peek into a dark mystery. Earth's magnetic field is indeed undergoing rap= id changes in intensity, polarity, frequency, phase, and topography. My own encounters with bees convinced me they deteact, react, and navigat= e magnetic flux. The idea of a "beeline" contains the notion of a magetic, straightline compass bearing. I've seen bees deflected from their straigh= t flight lines by magnetic fields from ballast transformers in fluourescent light fixtures. From dowsing, I know bees normally locate their hives at magnetically active spots on the ground. You can bet abnormal bee-havior = -- including population drops -- indicates disturbed magnetic flux. In 1990 I wrote: RETURN OF THE DRAGON Hazards of Man-Made Magnetism by David Yarrow 1990 Part 2: Spin the Tale on the Dragon [To review: the newly emerging understanding of magnetism in biology and ecology shows mounting evidence that man-made electromagnetism pollutes o= ur airwaves and brainwaves, jams cell-to-cell communications, and scrambles primary geomagnetic oscillations. Here's a snip from a part on magnetism, in bees specifically, and biology in general. Note: EM =3D electromagneti= sm] SING THE BODY MAGNETIC To understand magnetism's role in life, a first step is to show that organisms have intrinsic EM fields. In the 1940s, Harold Burr of Yale University devised the first electronic voltmeter able to measure as litt= le as .001 volt. Burr used his new extra-sensitive tool to map electric fiel= ds in living organisms. Burr's work with DC electric potentials was ignored = by most biologists, but some went on to develop EEG, EKG, and EMG which measure the body's pulsating AC electricity. A second step is to show organisms can sense EM. In the 1950s, Frank Brow= n, endocrinologist at Northwestern, found snails have two antennae to detect magnetic direction which they use to navigate. Most scientists dismissed this as impossible, yet Brown went on to show geomagnetism affects all organisms he tested, including mice, bees, fruit flies, potatoes, and humans. In 1960, Andus discovered magnetotrophism -- magnetic effects on growth: oat shoots and cress roots grow oriented to magnetic fields. Later, scientists found corn pollen tubes grow oriented to magnetic fields, mayb= e due to changes in intercellular calcium ion flow. Magnetism is known to alter biochemical reactions by influencing electron spin states in reacti= ng molecules, such as electrons in photosynthetic bacteria. In 1971, naturalist Richard Blakemore of Woods Hole Marine Biology Lab noticed that bacteria collected from Cape Cod marshes crowded to the nort= h side of culture dishes. He rotated the plates, and bacteria migrated back to the north. Using a new tool -- an electron microscope -- he found tiny chains of micro-crystals of magnetite in bacteria serve as a compass. The= se were unit cell crystals -- the smallest a magnetite crystal can be. He then took north-seeking bacteria to the southern hemisphere. They continued to swim north a few weeks, then "turned tail" and began swimmin= g south. Electron microscopy revealed they'd disassembled and rebuilt the magnetite crystals to adapt to a changed magnetic pole. Bacteria don't "think" north; they become a compass. Also in the 70s, Bill Keeton at Cornell University reported homing pigeon= s with magnets on the back of their heads lost their navigational ability o= n cloudy days. Further study of pigeons with Helmholtz EM coils on their heads showed they use magnetic north as their reference point. Beehives, too, were enclosed by Helmholtz coils -- and bees became disoriented in their navigational dances. Without question birds and bees derive directional data from magnetic sensing of geomagnetism. The question now was: how? FOLLOW YOUR NOSE Another breakthrough came in 1971, when Brian Josephson invented a new crystal semiconductor to make possible superconducting quantum interferen= ce detectors (SQUID) -- which are extremely sensitive to magnetism. This new tool led to a scientific revolution: Bioelectromagnetics. One of the firs= t things found by SQUID was delicate magnetic fields about our head. Whole bees were found to be magnetic. SQUIDs can locate where magnetic material is in an organism. Magnetite wa= s found in all species studied. Bee magnetism seems to be in their abdomen. Pigeons have a magnetite crystal cluster wrapped in nerves on the brain surface between the left lobe and skull. Magnetic sensing has been found = in whales, tuna, dolphins, butterflies, frogs, worms, and migrating birds. Labs train animals to detect minute magnetic fields. Organisms from algae to man use this inner sense to orient and navigate. Dr. Robin Baker of England's Manchester University has shown humans have their own magnetic compass. With minimal training, people display innate ability to locate magnetic north. Further, in various experiments, Baker has shown human homing ability -- that people can easily learn to choose the correct direction home from any location. Most intriguing, this direction sensing is lost if a magnet is held on the forehead only 15 minutes. In primates and humans, this newfound magnetic organ is sited behind the ethmoid sinus in front of the pituitary gland. It can detect less than .0= 01 gauss within a second of arc -- far more sensitive than our best compass. This gives new meaning to the traditional common sense advice to "follow your nose." In pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey a blindfolded child is spun around, then tries to stick a tail on a paper donkey. This age-old game is no childish amusement but a training exercise in magnetic sensing. Blindfolded, the child must learn to orient and home to successfully tack a tail on a donkey's derriere. It's been shown organisms respond to magnetism far below levels once thought theoretically possible. Man's power and communications systems us= e extensive portions of the EM spectrum. The effects of this on humans is virtually unknown. Is modern man lost in his own thick EM fog? His cells choking in noisy EM smog? Slowly drowning in ELF waves from transformers? > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:21:42 -0400 > From: Bill Teague > Subject: Re: Why Beez Buzz..... At 02:00 AM 7/8/96 +0000, David Yarrow wrote: > Another breakthrough came in 1971, when Brian Josephson > invented a new crystal semiconductor to make possible > superconducting quantum interference detectors (SQUID) -- > which are extremely sensitive to magnetism. This new tool > led to a scientific revolution: Bioelectromagnetics. One of > the first things found by SQUID was delicate magnetic fields > about our head. Whole bees were found to be magnetic. David, absolutely cool stuff.... A man told me a long time ago that bees "fly on their sound" as do many 'saucers' he claimed as well (witness the many eye/ear-witnesses to flyin= g disks that later refer to them sounding like a "swarm of bees" and so forth) He said the sound bees produce "separates" the Earth's EM grid into lines of force thereby allowing the bee to insert itself into the grid, which then allows it to move about forward, backward, up and down, and so forth... depending on which polarity and direction it chooses or orients itself to.. I suppose this being done internally by act of will and so forth Do you know any research along these lines as far as bees and the sound they produce causing any measurable EM effects around them? It seems it would be quite easy to do such research This man told me one day (in my lifetime he claimed..., I'm 44) that we would have little, what I have since chose to call "Singin' Bee Cars," th= at would float not too far off the ground, 12-15 feet or so, utiliizing this sound/EM aspect that bees use -- allowing us to get free from not only oi= l and internal-combustion technology but from the wheel itself and the road= s to which the wheel has enslaved us These "Singin' Bee Cars" would have energy bubbles around them making the= m sort of like floating bumper cars and virtually impossible to crash into each other as they tooled around. > Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:32:50 -0400 > From: Geri Guidetti > Subject: Drought, Flood, and Food Supply It's Official -- Grain Supply in Doubt =A9 Geri Guidetti, 1996 This report will be in addition to my normal, weekly grain supply update. Data from farms reflecting last week's weather and planting progress acro= ss the land are not yet available. I expect they will be within the next two days. Information in this report reflects important new analyses of the Nation's grain supplies and markets up to July 2, 1996. "We're not going to run out of (corn) supply" this summer, "but Lord help us if we have a crop failure," Daniel Basse, executive VP of AgResource Inc., a Chicago agricultural research firm, told the Wall Street Journal. His assessment reflects the new pessimism among grain analysts who had expected that this year's corn reserves would reach an all-time low becau= se of several years of bad corn harvests. You'll remember that we were to be down to a two-week supply when we are ready to harvest this year's crop. But, on Friday, the Agriculture Department reported that corn reserves on June 1st totaled only 1.72 billion bushels, a mere half of what we had la= st year and much lower than even the most pessimistic analysts had predicted. Then Monday's weather forecasts for the next two weeks were released; mor= e above-normal temperatures and below-normal precipitation in growing areas already in trouble. Above normal rainfall and cold temperatures had alrea= dy plagued the Midwest, delaying spring planting. Many farmers had switched to lower yielding, shorter-season corn varietie= s or chose to plant substitute crops, instead. Though the higher prices for corn encouraged them to plant more acreage than they had in years, the weather has not been cooperating. Estimates of the potential size of this year's harvest have been slipping daily. Mr. Urbanchuk of AUS Consultants predicts a corn harvest of 8.8 billion bushels, while David Nelson at NatWest Securities says only 8.3 billion bushels are likely. Neither of these potential harvests would provide enough corn to rebuild the U.S. co= rn reserves even to comfortable levels. That means high prices through NEXT year while we wait for 97s crop. The Agriculture Department said "corn demand is so strong that, if unabated, spot shortages might develop in th= e weeks before the autumn harvest replenishes supplies," according to the Journal. Corn futures prices hit an all-time record yesterday on the Chicago Board of Trade. In fact, on Friday, July corn rose 34.75 cents a bushel, the highest, single-day rise since 1973. Mr. Basse told the Journal that "simple economics" will stabilize the market. As prices get high enough for deman= d to drop off, fears that corn stockpiles will run out will subside. (Don't count on it, IMO.) The Agriculture Dept., in the meantime, reported that it will release 16 million of its 45-million bushel grain reserve within the next 10 days to ease the crisis for U.S. cattle ranchers. The ranchers were already switching to wheat as corn prices climbed higher than wheat. Most of the released stockpile reserves will be going to the drought-stricken Southwest. On Monday, President Clinton declared the Southwest to be in a state of emergency. Now for the trickle down. We can live without corn-on-the-cob, corn bread and, if we have to, even the beef, chicken and pork fed by corn, right? Well how about all of those corn syrup-sweetened products most folks eat = -- like sodas, catsup, cereals, jams, jellies, juices, salad dressings, etc. ad nauseum. Or how about all of those products made with corn oil? Or the ethanol fuel supplies? Or citric acid in nearly all canned fruits, vegetables, sodas, etc.? Well, Archer-Daniels-Midland, a large producer o= f corn-based ethanol fuel, is already operating its four plants at 20 perce= nt of capacity and reports that its corn syrup business is only "marginally profitable." A couple of weeks ago, I suggested the writing was on the wall for food inflation. Economists now look at grocery inflation to rise from its 2.8 percent level in 95 to up to 5.5 percent. If we have a widespread corn cr= op failure this autumn, count on a shortage and much higher food inflation than even these estimates. Of course, no one has yet written about the impact of continuing and growing global demand for U.S. grain on our supplies and costs. I mentioned Egypt last week. Keep your eyes on the Ukraine, normally a grain exporter. They are in weather trouble, too. Mor= e as this week's data arrives. If you use citric acid in your canning, you might want to get it at its current price. Open-pollinated corn seed for planting next year? Now's the time to try to find it quickly. For those with my book, the seed houses begin on p. 39. Good time, in general, to stock up on things you don't think you can live without that contain corn products. BTW, you can freeze corn oil margarine. Bet on canola and soy oils going up in price as demand for these increase when corn oil is too expensive or nonexistent. It will be stockpiled by industries that depend on it -- chip manufacturers, etc. Geri Guidetti, The Ark Institute Build Your Ark! How to Prepare for Self-Reliance in Uncertain Times Book I: Food Self-Sufficiency: http://www.lis.ab.ca/walton/geri.html Grain Supply Updates: http://www.lis.ab.ca/walton/geri1.html This report may be republished ONLY if copyright and Sig. File remain int= act. > Date: 5 Jul 1996 15:52:47 GMT > From: allb@nrv.net (David G. Allbee) > Subject: Schumann resonance Anyone one on this list know anything about the "Schumann resonance"? I picked this up and was wondering if anyone could verify it for me? Earth's background base frequency, or "heartbeat," (called Schumann resonance, or SR) is rising dramatically. Though it varies among geographical regions, for decades the overall measurement was 7.8 cycles per second. This was once thought to be a constant; global military communications developed on this frequency. The rate is currently reporte= d at 8.6, and climbing. Science doesn't know why, or what to make of it. > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:22:55 -0700 > From: Brian Zeiler > Subject: UFO flap in Australia UFOs BUZZ AUSTRALIA'S THREE LARGEST CITIES from CNI News, http://www.iscni.com Australia just finished the third week of a UFO flap that shows no signs = of dying down. On Wednesday, June 19, the Australian national television network, TEN TV, aired video footage of the bright orange UFO that cavort= ed over the city of Adelaide four days earlier. The flap hit high gear last weekend when orange UFOs appeared suddenly ov= er Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide. (See "UFOs Trouble Hotline" in the Melbourne Sunday Sun-Herald for June 16, 1996). According to Ross Dowe of Australia's National UFO Hotline, his staff received "about a dozen calls" on Friday night, June 14, with excited callers describing "strange bright orange lights" over their neighborhood= s. On Saturday night, June 15, the lights were seen again in downtown Adelaide, in the Sydney suburbs of Sutherland and Parramatta, and at Kew near Melbourne. In Kew, residents saw "five orange illuminations going straight up into the sky." On Sunday, June 16, more lights were seen in Melbourne, and a single glowing UFO was videotaped in Adelaide. Outlying regions of Australia were not spared, either. Orange UFOs were reported at Mudgeeraba in Queensland, at Campbelltown in South Australia and over the nation's capital, Canberra. "We normally receive calls just in one area," Ross Dowe told the Sun-Herald. "But if this is a hoax, it's a hoax that's been done on the national scale over the past six weeks." On Monday, June 17, radio listeners in Melbourne heard the Royal Australi= an Air Force (RAAF) announce the formation of a commission to study "mysterious lights in the sky." However, other correspondents in Australi= a dispute this report. On Tuesday, June 18, Melbourne saw yet another overflight of orange light= s. This was described as a group of 10 orange UFOs arrayed in triangular formation, flying northeast of the city. Several people watched the aeria= l procession fly over Preston on its way to Eltham. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Some new websites you may be interested in checking out... Atlantis Rising Magazine http://www.aa.net/~mwm/atlantis/atrise2.html ET Capture in Brazil http://execpc.com/vjentpr/brazetcp.html Virtual Stonehenge http://www.superscape.com/Stonehenge.html Watchers Paradigm Links http://www.MT.net/~watcher/march12.html Web O Conspiracy http://www.MT.net/~watcher/april30.html World Population Clock from the U.S. Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/ipc-bin/popclockw > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 96 17:01:35 -0400 > Subject: MEDIT Topic -- Intelligent Use of Natural Resources > From: Eitta Greetings from the Meditation SIG! The Meditation SIG has come together to direct the Light through weekly meditations on specific topics. A little effort can go a long way toward improving the health and well-being of Creation. We believe we can and wi= ll make a positive difference by collectively focusing our intent and applyi= ng our spirit. Even if you haven't joined the SIG, you can still privately lend your energy to this effort. We invite you to meditate within your own traditio= n on the following topic for the week of 7/7/96: The Meditation Topic for this week: Intelligent Use of Natural Resources How often did our parents tell us to "turn that switch (appliance, etc) o= ff when you're done using it!"? Back then, the request was often an issue of economy rather than ecology. Today, most of us are more aware than generations past. We know our Earth is in trouble, and we have the intelligence and information to make a difference if we choose... even in little ways. Once again, this is an active meditation in two parts. First, declare thi= s an energy reduction week. Research and contemplate how you can extend and refine this energy frugality forward into the months and years to come. I= f you feel comfortable, welcome your friends and neighbors into this concep= t and practice. Second, perform a weekly meditation focusing on illuminating corporation'= s and world government's minds and hearts that the consumption of natural resources occurs with frugality and wisdom. Imagine that all those with "decision making authority" are suddenly ravaged by a deep desire to make natural resource recommendations with respect and concern for the Earth a= nd Her creatures. Please join this meditation with the understanding that while we are free to consume the Earth's resources as our birthright, that consumption requires great responsibility. When we take, we must always give in retur= n so that Creation's balance is maintained. If you have any questions, or would like more information about this SIG,= a part of "The Millennium Matters...," please contact Eitta -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- "The MILLENNIUM Matters..." Newsletter is a repository for all things millennial; for information on, sources regarding, and personal revelatio= ns about the coming millennium period.... Topic-areas covered are: Matters o= f SPIRIT (The spirituality of personal & planetary transformation, prophecy= , and divination); The SPHINX Group (ancient readings and artifacts, Egypti= an sphinx and pyramids, methods to monoliths and Leedskalnin, ancient astronauts); GAIA Alert (earth changes, weird weather, nature & ecology); UFOrmation (evidence, crop circles, abductions, monuments in space); and VISION of Sanctuary (future and intentional communities; and alternate, vibrational, and holistic healing). -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- -_-_- Fini -_-_- -_-_- --------------2E27FE9465C-- From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 13 04:20:38 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:20:38 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960713002037_357733027@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Breathing Exercises (Chuck/3) Jerry, As you are one of the few people on this list who has actually seen me with my helmet on, you ought to know. How was ABA? I forgot to ask. Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 12 21:31:19 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:31:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle In-Reply-To: <960712112914_236258924@emout10.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960712112914_236258924@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Or anon, as the case may be. I was referring to the idea that people signing >onto the list sign an agreement to be nice. Sounds good in prospect, but >halacious to enforce. > >Chuck The road to hell is paved with signed agreements, perhaps? Alan :-) [aka Anon, under which name I have written thousands of words and songs etc.] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:46:38 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:46:38 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960713074636_236833632@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Get off your . . . Ann, Kevlar is what they make bulletproof vests out of. They are mad at me because I am a heretic and post things they don't like. Naturally, I am all broken up over it. Chuck From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 12:58:32 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:58:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Winning and losing In-Reply-To: <199607121319.JAA03599@leo.vsla.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Paul: Your observations are timely. I hope we continue to be open minded and keep discussions on the topic and always remembering no one could be sure their understanding of the topic is the only correct one. All of us can continue to discuss without fear of being ridiculed so each one of us in her/his way can learn. When discussions lead to personal attacks, ultimately it is likely that the attacker end up talking to himself/herself. MK Ramdoss ================================================ On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Now seems to be a time of opportunity to reflect on what > changes in theos-xxx discussions might make them more truly > theosophical in spirit and tone. I that Theosophical > discussions are all too often quite untheosophical. Meaning > that people who study Theosophy often fail to demonstrate that > their communications are illuminated by mystical insight, and > rise above the combative, possessive kama-manas. > > The worst thing for me about this list has been the occasional > prevalence of aggressive win/lose confrontations of different > viewpoints. The best thing has been the occasional confluence > of mutually enlightening information and perspectives among > people with... different viewpoints. The crucial factor that > determines which way we go is the win/lose approach as opposed > to a win/win approach. > > Lately, the lists have been a constant battlefield in which > disagreement on issues has evoked harshly negative personal > attacks. There have certainly been rounds of this in the past, > and no one seems to have figured out how to nip these things in > the bud. Now, while there's a lull in the fighting, I think it > might help us to ask ourselves what we have just been through > and how to avoid it in the future. > > My chief observation here is that a minority of Theosophists > feel that they MUST WIN in all encounters with variant ways of > thinking about HPBTheosophy or theosophy. How people choose to > fight varies widely; one by endless nitpicking, another by > no-holds-barred aggression, another by patronizing and > condescending, and so on. But the bottom line is "Your > [understanding of] Theosophy/theosophy is a threat to mine, > which cannot be allowed to coexist with it, and must be > (emphatically or subtly) refuted in public by me." What happens when > someone with this outlook "wins"? Meaning, feels that they > have effectively silenced someone by aggressive communication? > In reality, they have LOST, lost all opportunity of a mutually > enlightening and helpful discussion. All the people who left > this list in the last few months due to the win/lose dynamics > would probably agree on this. And what happens when someone > "loses"-- by saying in effect, "OK, whatever you say is fine, I > give up, arguing with you is hopeless, you `win' and I'll > devote no more effort to trying to communicate?" In some sense > they "win" by doing so-- in terms of freeing them from a > negative emotional state. > > To be continued? (Interrupted) > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 13:07:53 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:07:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Aspartame Warning Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi I read about the deadly effects of Nutrasweet (Aspartame) which is used in a lot of diet drinks and foods. It appears that it could be deadly especially to diabetics in particular. If you know someone who is a diabetic, you may want to share the following message. There are a lot of background scientific information available from Betty Martini and anyone interested can get it by e-mail using her auto-responder (automatic retrieval). Effective yesterday no one in my family is using products containing Aspartame. I am posting this here because I think this is a very serious health risk and am interested in everyone's health. > Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:26:36 -0400 (EDT) > From: Betty Martini > Subject: Warning Flyer with publications WARNING! NutraSweet is A Neurotoxin The THALIDOMIDE of the 90's is ASPARTAME otherwise known as EQUAL, NUTRASWEET or SPOONFUL. In May, 1992 Flying Safety Magazine explained the dangers: In pregnancy the effects of aspartame can be passed directly on to the fetus, even in very small doses. Some people have suffered aspartame related disorders with doses as small as that carried in a single stick of chewing gum. This could mean a pilot who drinks diet sodas is more susceptible to flicker vertigo, or to flicker-induced epileptic activity. It also means that all pilots are potential victims of sudden memory loss, dizziness during instrument flight and gradual loss of vision. Some pilots have experienced grand mal seizures in the cockpits of commercial airline flights and have lost medical certification to fly, with it their careers. The FDA has received more than 10,000 consumer complaints on NutraPoison. That's 80 % of all complaints about food additives, yet they remain comatose and have done nothing to alert the American public who assume that since it's so highly advertised, it must be safe as mother's milk. The FDA consistently approves killer drugs as the February '94 OMNI MAGAZINE reported: If you are using aspartame and have headaches, depression, slurred speech, loss of memory, fibromyalgia type symptoms, loss of sensation in lower legs or shooting pains, loss of eqilibrium, vertigo, anxiety attacks, chronic fatigue, vision loss, floaters, retinal detachment, seizures, heart palpitations, etc. you have ASPARTAME DISEASE! Many physicians are diagnosing multiple sclerosis when in reality it is methanol toxicity which mimics MS. Get off this dangerous drug right away. MS is not a death sentence, but methanol toxicity is! 51% of FDA approved drugs have serious risks and could cause adverse reactions that lead to severe or permanent disability or death. The Center for Disease Control, Johns Hopkins University, and the New Jersey School of Medicine estimate that 80-120,000 Americans are killed by prescription drugs every year. That this atrocious holocaust persists has everything to do with money and nothing to do with public health. Monsanto reaps $2 billion/year from the Aspartame toxic bonanza. This can buy a lot of bureaucrats! Does FDA mean Fatal Drugs Allowed? The FDA works for industry, not citizens. FDA head Arthur Hayes overruled his own board of inquiry to approve it then went to work for their public relations firm. Federal attorney Sam Skinner was assigned to prosecute Searle for fraudulent tests in their application, but switched sides and went to work for Searle's lawyers and the case died when the statute of limitations ran out. Honest FDA toxicologist, the late Dr. Adrian Gross, wrote to Senator Howard Metzenbaum: "The views of the FDA's Center for Food Safety read like a script written for Abbott & Costello in the sense of their having perceptions inside-out and upside-down ... FDA may have gone through the motions ... such a "process" or DANCE represented a farce and a mockery." Aspartame is a molecule composed of three components: aspartic acid, phenylalanine and methanol. Once ingested the methanol, wood alcohol that has killed or blinded thousands of skid row drunks, converts into formaldehyde and formic (Ant Sting Poison). Formaldehyde, a deadly neurotoxin, is common embalming fluid, a Class A Carcinogen. Phenylalanine is also neurotoxic when unaccompanied by the other amino acids in proteins. Aspartic acid causes brain lesions in neuroendocrine disorders in experimental animals. There are 92 documented symptoms including: Headaches Numbness Fatigue Blurred vision Heart palpitations Memory loss Dizziness Muscle spasms Weight gain Irritability Anxiety attacks Vertigo Seizures Rashes Blindness Tachycardia Tinnitus Joint pain Nausea Depression Hearing loss Slurred speech Loss of taste Insomnia NutraSweet is in 5,000 foods and on every restaurant table for the same reasons tobacco is everywhere: Greed, Addiction and Profit! The NutraSweet Company and sister Searle whose chemists discovered asp e while testing an ulcer drug are owned by Monsanto. If you're taking other medicine, consider possible reactions you may have. In 1969 Searle approached Dr. Harry Waisman to study the effects of aspartame on primates. Seven infant monkeys were fed the chemical in milk. One died after 300 days, 5 others had Grand Mal seizures. Searle deleted these findings when they submitted this study to the FDA! The best way to understand NutraSweet is to think of it as a minute dose of nerve gas that eradicates brain and nerve functions. SOME DISEASES TRIGGERED BY ASPARTAME: Brain tumors and other cancers Multiple sclerosis Epilepsy Fibromyalgia Graves Disease Chronic fatigue syndrome Epstein Barr Parkinson's Alzheimer's Diabetes Mental retardation Lymphoma Birth defects Systemic Lupus Death! Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of Technology surveyed 80 people who suffered brain seizures after eating or drinking products with Aspartame. Said the Community Nutrition Institute: "These 80 cases meets the FDA's own definition of an imminent hazard to the public health, which requires the FDA to expeditiously remove a product from the market". America is seeing a tremendous increase in seizures. Phenylalanine in Aspartame lowers the seizure threshold in the brain and blocks serotonin production. Today our nation is swept by a rage of violence. Researchers attribute this is part to low brain serotonin levels inducing depression, rage and paranoia. So President Clinton, Diet Coke in hand, programs billions of $'s to buy penitentiaries for the paranoid. Fetal tissue cannot tolerate methanol , and Dr. James Bowen calls NutraSweet instant birth control. The fetal placenta can concentrate phenylalanine and cause mental retardation. Aspartame tests on animals produced brain and mammary tumors. No wonder breast cancer is exponentiating! During Operation Desert Storm truckloads of diet drinks cooked in the Arabian sun and at 86 degrees Aspartame liberates methanol in the can! Thousands of service men and women returned home with chronic fatigue syndrome and weird toxic symptoms! On July 28, 1983 the National Soft Drink Association drafted a 30 page protest questioning the safety of Aspartame in soft drinks. Then they found weight-conscious Americans would sip soda all day if it was sugarless, so they forgot their objections: nor did they tell us that Aspartame makes you crave carbohydrates and so you gain weight. The formaldehyde stores in fat cells, particularly on the hips and thighs. Drink diet soda, get fat now, and later develop seizures, diabetes, blindness, Epstein Barr, MS depression and death. Similarly, the American Diabetic Association, which receives megafunds from NutraSweet ignored a 1987 abstract submitted by Dr. H. J. Roberts (world expert on Aspartame and diabetic specialist) summarizing 58 diabetic aspartame reactors. He says "I now advise ALL patients with diabetes and hypoglycemia to avoid Aspartame products." Russell Blaylock, M.D., Neurosurgeon in his book: EXCITOTOXINS-THE TASTE THAT KILLS says Aspartame may trigger clinical diabetes! He says that excitotoxins which can be found in such ingredients as NutraSweet literally stimulate neurons to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees. Health Press: 1-800-643-2665. Also, "What really concerns me about aspartame is its association with brain tumors as well as pancreatic, uterine and ovarian tumors ... and that so many develop an Alzheimer's-like syndrome with prolonged exposure." NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful are the deadliest toxins in our society because of their ubiquitous presence in thousands of foods, even children's vitamins, medicines, Kool Aid and Jell-O and on every restaurant table. We're dosed with millions of pounds every year! This warning should be on every Aspartame/NutraSweet(/Equal/Spoonful product: CHEMICAL POISON: KEEP OUT OF REACH OF HUMANS! GENOCIDAL! AUTHORITIES H. J. ROBERTS, M.D., F.A.C.P., F.C.C.P. BOOKS - PUBLICATIONS 300 27th Street Aspartame: Is it Safe? The Charles Press, PO Box 15715S, Philadelphia PA 19103 West Palm Beach, FL 33407 Sweet'ner Dearest; Is Aspartame Safe? A Medical, Public Health Legal Overview (407)832-2408 on tape; Defense Against Alzheimer's Disease, (Dr. Roberts explains how aspartame can escalate Alzheimer's). Sunshine Sentinel Press: 1-800-814-9800 Nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, included in Who's Who in America, Who's Who in the World, Who's Who in Science and Technology, and THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE U.S. Selected by a national medical publication as "The Best Doctor in the U.S." BARBARA ALEXANDER MULLARKEY (708) 848-0116 c/o NutriVoice PO Box 946 Oak Park, Illinois 60303 Bittersweet Aspartame: A Diet Delusion A leading Anti-Aspartarne authority, former ecology-nutrition columnist for the Wednesday Journal of Oak Park, Illinois. Publisher of NutriVoice Newsletter, Nutrition editor Conscious Choice Magazine. Contributor to Informed Consent Magazine. SPREAD THE WARNING! Copy this for your friends, school, workplace, lawmakers, merchants and physicians! Prepared by MISSION POSSIBLE and distributed worldwide. MISSION POSSIBLE, PO BOX 28098, Atlanta, GA 30358. For further information on aspartame e-mail betty@pd.org and put as the Subject line "sendme help". Take the "no aspatame test" for one month and when your symptoms disappear to send us your case history with permission to publish. Mission Possible is dedicated to the proposition that we will not be satisfied until death and disability are no longer considered an acceptable cost of business. From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 13 13:54:18 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:54:18 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607131354.GAA08839@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 13, 96 09:10:37 am Content-Type: text > Hi Hi ! Thanks for this post! I'd been trying to locate some information on aspertame because I always use it as a sugar substitute. (I'm hypoglycemic and have to watch my sugar intake.) Although I am not a big soda drinker, truly hate the stuff -- I do use it in cooking and so on to avoid sugar. The interesting thing is that I do have CFS. I haven't had an episode in a couple of months...but I always know it is lurking, waiting to pounce on me as soon as something comes along. The fact that I am between jobs and can rest whenever I need to has helped, too. Anyway, based on what I have read here I'm going to stop using it and see if things improve. Are people who can't use sugar going back to saccharine now? bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 14:18:56 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:18:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning In-Reply-To: <199607131354.GAA08839@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > > Hi > > The interesting thing is that I do have CFS. I haven't had an episode > in a couple of months...but I always know it is lurking, waiting to > pounce on me as soon as something comes along. The fact that I am > between jobs and can rest whenever I need to has helped, too. > > Anyway, based on what I have read here I'm going to stop using it > and see if things improve. > > Are people who can't use sugar going back to saccharine now? I am glad to see your message. If even one single person is "saved" by not using Aspartame, I think the msg would have served the purpose. I believe there are many substitutes. There a natural substitute that is being used in Japan and other countries and it is available in the US as a supplement in health food stores. There is a list of substitutes available on the autoresponder on betty and you can retrieve it. To get a list of all available documents just send e-mail as follows: To: betty@pd.org Subject: sendme help The subject should be exactly as above. There should be nothing in the body of the message. I have retrieved some documents last night and the auto responder works. If you still have some problems, just send a message to betty and she will help you. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 14:30:41 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:30:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: usenet search engine Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi There was a question about how to get the profile of a message poster. Say you want to know the statistical information as to the various usenet groups to which I have posted in the past, you can get it very easily. Once you are on the statistical list, then you can retrieve each message I have posted and read it. The beauty of it is that you will know a lot about say John Doe your friend. For example you will get a list like this. alt.cars 256 alt.vegetarian 192 alt.skydiving 143 alt.mysticism 133 alt.politics 102 alt.computers 99 alt.food 98 alt.travel 69 alt.freemason 66 alt.karma 54 alt.cats 44 alt.snakes 41 alt.racism 33 The numbers indicate the number of messages found in usenet posted by John on the topic. You can see from the above, what kinds of interest the person has. To get the above is very simple. 1. Go to http://www.dejanews.com/ 2. Search for John Doe 3. You will get a list of first 20 messages matching the search. 4. Move the mouse to any message and click on the Author. 5. Bingo you have the display as above. Try the above search on your friends. Then read some of the messages. You may have a pleasant surprise. Enjoy Dejanews. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 13 14:44:56 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:44:56 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607131444.HAA13118@primenet.com> Subject: More on the Energy (update) In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 13, 96 10:24:46 am Content-Type: text Hi All... Since the list is kind of slow, I thought I'd give an update on the "energy" and what's been happening. Last night, I decided to deliberately contact it again. It came around and one of the signs of it being around was an intense warmness -- like a mass of energy that was on my right side.... almost as though it was sitting next to me or something. It has never been that concentrated before. I was able to put my hand "into" it and my hand and arm up to the elbow got *very* warm -- nearly uncomfortable but bearable. It was sort of tingly when I put my arm back in its usual position. I asked it what it wanted from me -- and this time it was very clear. It was almost a thought transferrance type thing which I could tell I wasn't creating because the use of "language" was so different than my own. The general impression I got is that it has come around because it "feels" like I am open to it, that I will be receptive to it. I went on a bit further with it...and got even more information. It used the term "genius loci" which is something I was not familiar with before. I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered that it means "a spirit that watches over a place." I find it significant that I didn't know the term before. I am still not *really* clear on what I can do to help this "thing" -- this "energy" -- but I am open to finding out and possibly even "doing" "it" -- whatever "it" is. The energy isn't desperate or clingy...just trying to communicate. Does this sound familiar to anyone -- or is it just more evidence that I should be staying off the aspertame? bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 15:04:21 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:04:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: More on the Energy (update) In-Reply-To: <199607131444.HAA13118@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi It is very interesting. When the energy is near you, have you tried to see if you told it to go away it went away. The reason I am inquiring about this specific aspect is that from what I have read, it is very important that you are in total control and at will can ask the energy to go away. MK Ramadoss ---------------- On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Shaman wrote: > Hi All... > > Since the list is kind of slow, I thought I'd give an update on the > "energy" and what's been happening. > > Last night, I decided to deliberately contact it again. It came around > and one of the signs of it being around was an intense warmness -- like > a mass of energy that was on my right side.... almost as though it > was sitting next to me or something. It has never been that concentrated > before. I was able to put my hand "into" it and my hand and arm up to > the elbow got *very* warm -- nearly uncomfortable but bearable. It > was sort of tingly when I put my arm back in its usual position. > > I asked it what it wanted from me -- and this time it was very clear. > It was almost a thought transferrance type thing which I could tell > I wasn't creating because the use of "language" was so different > than my own. > > The general impression I got is that it has come around because it > "feels" like I am open to it, that I will be receptive to it. > > I went on a bit further with it...and got even more information. It > used the term "genius loci" which is something I was not familiar > with before. I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered that it > means "a spirit that watches over a place." I find it significant > that I didn't know the term before. > > I am still not *really* clear on what I can do to help this "thing" -- > this "energy" -- but I am open to finding out and possibly even > "doing" "it" -- whatever "it" is. The energy isn't desperate or > clingy...just trying to communicate. > > Does this sound familiar to anyone -- or is it just more evidence > that I should be staying off the aspertame? > > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 13 15:08:00 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:08:00 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607131508.IAA15493@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Winning and losing In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 13, 96 09:00:58 am Content-Type: text ..[MK Ramadoss writes]... > I hope we continue to be open minded and keep discussions on the topic > and always remembering no one could be sure their understanding of the topic > is the only correct one. All of us can continue to discuss without fear of > being ridiculed so each one of us in her/his way can learn. This is really right to the point. None of us comes to the planet with all knowledge. If we achieved that, we would be ascended masters, right? I am really concerned about the whole binary style of thought that indicates that we must "lose" or "win." Somehow, I just don't see Enlightenment as a competitive process. It is very personal and individual. "Winning" and "losing" are both illusory concepts, created by us in order to somehow validate our own being. It's a lie. If someone reads one of my posts and thinks "well, I am more enlightened than BC," or if I read a post by, say, Bee Brown and say to myself, "I am more enlightened than Bee Brown," it is the worse kind of lie. I come here with my lessons and she with hers. There is no comparison. If we compare ourselves to each other, then we only do more to separate ourselves and deny our Oneness. > When discussions lead to personal attacks, ultimately it is likely that > the attacker end up talking to himself/herself. One should hope so. It occurs to me that when writing something to a spiritually-oriented list, it is best to leave one's ego in the kitchen. It doesn't have much place here. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 13 15:12:33 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:12:33 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607131512.IAA15916@primenet.com> Subject: Re: More on the Energy (update) In-Reply-To: from "m.k. ramadoss" at Jul 13, 96 11:05:09 am Content-Type: text > > Hi Hi again! > It is very interesting. When the energy is near you, have you tried to > see if you told it to go away it went away. No I have not done that to this point. I am still overwhelmingly curious about it and don't want to dismiss it at this point. I guess what I am saying is that I'd be concerned that it would go away *forever* and not return, leaving me in the dark about it's real purpose. If I *do* decide to do a healing ritual on its behalf and get some others to do the same, I expect it to leave me after that. I suppose I should be clear with it about that. This isn't a permanent partnership. :-) > The reason I am inquiring > about this specific aspect is that from what I have read, it is very > important that you are in total control and at will can ask the energy to > go away. Absolutely! If it's anything I have a low tolerance for, it's walk-ins who refuse to leave. Been there. Done that. bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 15:39:37 1996 Date: 13 Jul 96 11:39:37 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Helmets and ABA (to Chuck) Message-Id: <960713153937_76400.1474_HHL39-2@CompuServe.COM> >Jerry, >As you are one of the few people on this list who has actually seen me with >my helmet on, you ought to know. >How was ABA? I forgot to ask. And you looked quite distinquished in it. My wife and I are currently in St Paul, MN undergoing a summer session with the Graduate School of America. We are gluttons for punishment, and are both working on a second Ph.D. So, we will miss the ABA this year. Hopefully we can get there next year. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 15:39:40 1996 Date: 13 Jul 96 11:39:40 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Winning and losing Message-Id: <960713153939_76400.1474_HHL39-3@CompuServe.COM> >Now seems to be a time of opportunity to reflect on what >changes in theos-xxx discussions might make them more truly >theosophical in spirit and tone.... Paul, good post, and good ideas. I can only speak for myself, though. First of all, the idea that we are all on equal playing fields is wrong; study and experience requires that we each have insights that others do not yet have. However, this does not have to be seen as a right-vs-wrong situation. We all are, in fact, right in a very large sense. Eldon and I, for example, have worked out a nice agreement on theos-l over several years, in which we both realize that the "core teachings" can be seen and interpreted on many different levels of understanding. None of these are "wrong" or "false" or "untrue." Rather, some are exoteric (outward or simplistic) while others are esoteric (inward or complex). So, arguing over core teachings is pretty silly, and leads us nowhere. What we can, and should, be doing on theos-l is sharing our unique perspectives and interpretations. For an example, take karma. Now I have suggested that karma is a whole lot more complicated than the simple idea of rewards and punishments. This does not mean that "karma is rewards and punishments for our actions" is wrong. I am really only suggesting that there is more to it than that. This has to do with Eldon's metaphor of mining for gold; that the golden teachings of Theosophy lie buried in the literature at various levels of understanding. The same can be said for core vs process Theosophy. Good and bad can be said for either, and I suspect that the ideal approach is some combination of the two rather than either one at the expense of the other. If we look at Theosophy this way, perhaps we can avoid flaming others who are talking on a different level of understanding. Jerry S. Member, TI From jmeier@microfone.net Sat Jul 13 13:15:27 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:15:27 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607131715.AA21823@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning (?! - Doss) Remember Alar? A perfectly fine insecticide when used as directed. But not long ago, there was a mass hysteria over "poison apples" in little Johnny's school lunch program. Hollywood celebrites who were suddenly experts in toxicology testified before Congress, with the result that apples were pulled from the school lunch program and there was a multi-million dollar effect on agribusiness. All of that made front pages and 5 o'clock newscasts, of course. When it was later determined that not one of the "experts" had a clue about what they'd been saying, that was not so newsworthy. Bottom line: Alar is not and never has been a health hazard, that concentrations remaining on an apple skin are in the ppm range, if at all, and if the idea of ppm Alar (which is demonstrably harmless) bothers someone, they can still just wash the apple before eating it. "NeutraPoison"? Doss, I don't doubt your motives for posting someone else's propaganda, but when they use terms like "NeutraPoison" and "grand mal seizures of pilots in aircraft cabins," it makes me wonder about their objectivity. Can you imagine the testing that went on about Aspartame, developed as it was after all the cyclamate nonsense? I work in the chemical industry, and a dozen or so years ago I was with Kay-Fries, a chemical company that supplied cinnamic acid to Searle for aspartame production. Since it was the core of our business, we naturally kept up with all the thousands of reports and studies and... I have no problems with anyone in my family using all the NeutraSweet they like. Searle is no longer the manufacturer and the process is now different, but aspartame is still basically an amino acid structure. If you can't even kill a rat by cramming it full of aspartame instead of food, it's hard to imagine that the FDA missed the "neurotoxin" effects alleged in the post. Diabetics may have their own special health requirements, but the rest of us don't need to spend the time worrying about artificial sweeteners! Jim From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 20:12:57 1996 Date: 13 Jul 96 16:12:57 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: At the feet of the Master Message-Id: <960713201257_74024.3352_BHT112-1@CompuServe.COM> Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in theos-bud or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from its direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. Keith Price From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 13 21:03:17 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:03:17 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607132103.OAA21628@primenet.com> Subject: Re: At the feet of the Master In-Reply-To: <960713201257_74024.3352_BHT112-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 13, 96 04:21:26 pm Content-Type: text > > Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in theos-bud > or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from its > direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. > > Keith Price > I would. I don't have a book by that name though. (Just checked.) bcs From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 21:12:46 1996 Date: 13 Jul 96 17:12:46 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: More on the Energy (update) Message-Id: <960713211245_76400.1474_HHL84-1@CompuServe.COM> >Does this sound familiar to anyone -- or is it just more evidence >that I should be staying off the aspertame? Its very familar. Since "it" only wants to communicate, my suggestion is to go ahead and find out what it wants. At this point it doesn't matter if it is a external entity or a part of your unconscious. Communication of information is important either way. Jerry S. Member, TI From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 21:26:51 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:26:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning (?! - Doss) In-Reply-To: <199607131715.AA21823@vnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Glad that Jim responded. Many diabetics are heavy users of Aspartame. I have personally known a person who recently had slight but significant changes in the acuity of the vision. Most diabetics can get by without any artificial sweetner. Even if aspartame is remotely likely to affect the vision of diabetics, it is a very serious issue. The above mentioned person has quit using aspartame just to totally avoid any risk of it damaging the eye etc. The person who has put out the alert has collected a lot of information and can be retrieved by e-mail. Just send a message to betty@pd.org with sendme help in "Subject" and nothing in the text. The autoresponder will send you by e-mail a complete list of documents available. Since good health is a serious issue, I urge anyone to read all they can and decide what is best for them. If some one falls sick or loses an eye, it is going to affect a lot of persons around that person. So I leave it to the judgement of each individual. Again thanks for Jim's feedback. MK Ramadoss =========================== On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Jim Meier wrote: > Remember Alar? > > A perfectly fine insecticide when used as directed. But not long ago, there > was a mass hysteria over "poison apples" in little Johnny's school lunch > program. Hollywood celebrites who were suddenly experts in toxicology > testified before Congress, with the result that apples were pulled from the > school lunch program and there was a multi-million dollar effect on > agribusiness. All of that made front pages and 5 o'clock newscasts, of > course. When it was later determined that not one of the "experts" had a > clue about what they'd been saying, that was not so newsworthy. Bottom > line: Alar is not and never has been a health hazard, that concentrations > remaining on an apple skin are in the ppm range, if at all, and if the idea > of ppm Alar (which is demonstrably harmless) bothers someone, they can still > just wash the apple before eating it. > > "NeutraPoison"? Doss, I don't doubt your motives for posting someone else's > propaganda, but when they use terms like "NeutraPoison" and "grand mal > seizures of pilots in aircraft cabins," it makes me wonder about their > objectivity. Can you imagine the testing that went on about Aspartame, > developed as it was after all the cyclamate nonsense? I work in the > chemical industry, and a dozen or so years ago I was with Kay-Fries, a > chemical company that supplied cinnamic acid to Searle for aspartame > production. Since it was the core of our business, we naturally kept up > with all the thousands of reports and studies and... I have no problems with > anyone in my family using all the NeutraSweet they like. Searle is no > longer the manufacturer and the process is now different, but aspartame is > still basically an amino acid structure. If you can't even kill a rat by > cramming it full of aspartame instead of food, it's hard to imagine that the > FDA missed the "neurotoxin" effects alleged in the post. Diabetics may have > their own special health requirements, but the rest of us don't need to > spend the time worrying about artificial sweeteners! > > Jim > > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 13 21:30:34 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:30:34 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: At the feet of the Master In-Reply-To: <960713201257_74024.3352_BHT112-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Keith Price wrote: > Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in theos-bud > or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from its > direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. > > Keith Price Any serious study of any book can be revealing only if you put some of the things discussed in practice. We can bring up one issue at a time on AFM and we can all exchange our individual viewpoints. I do not know if theo-l is the most appropriate forum. I whole heartedly support your idea. Let us hear further feedback. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 13 21:12:26 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:12:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <0mfn$HA6EB6xEw4I@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: More on the Energy (update) In-Reply-To: <199607131444.HAA13118@primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607131444.HAA13118@primenet.com>, Shaman writes >I went on a bit further with it...and got even more information. It >used the term "genius loci" which is something I was not familiar >with before. I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered that it >means "a spirit that watches over a place." I find it significant >that I didn't know the term before. > >I am still not *really* clear on what I can do to help this "thing" -- >this "energy" -- but I am open to finding out and possibly even >"doing" "it" -- whatever "it" is. The energy isn't desperate or >clingy...just trying to communicate. > >Does this sound familiar to anyone -- or is it just more evidence >that I should be staying off the aspertame? I doubt if it's the aspartame :-) (UK labelling states "contains phenylalanine). I have had this kind of thing in the past, ie., info I definitely had to look up to verify, and then found it to be correct. You say the "energy" is trying to communicate. The experiences I have had have always been the other way - ie, my trying to communicate with a source of information of a non-physical kind. I once got around 20+ bible quotes, all from different parts of the same book - and every single one was relevant to my study! Anyhow, is it possible that in your personal "quest" you have made a contact that you need, rather than the other way around? Just a thought ... Best wishes, Alan (ex-aspartame user as from now) - thanks Doss! --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 13 23:02:07 1996 Date: 13 Jul 96 19:02:07 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning Message-Id: <960713230206_72723.2375_FHP43-1@CompuServe.COM> Jim: >"NeutraPoison"? Doss, I don't doubt your motives for posting someone else's >propaganda, but when they use terms like "NeutraPoison" and "grand mal >seizures of pilots in aircraft cabins," it makes me wonder about their >objectivity.. . I wonder about their objectives. Thanks for the informative post, Jim. Over the years I've seen many food and drug scares that seemed to do little but sell books. I remember back in the 70's when sugar was looked upon with as much suspicion as aspartame. Many chemicals in our environment have been accused of causing much of humanity's ills, but let's face it, millions of people got sick and died before anyone ever dreamed of these chemicals. They died . . . the old-fashioned way. From the plague, cholera, childhood diseases, childbirth, pneumonia, sword wounds, infections, torture, guillotine, etc. Drugs and chemicals need testing and regulation, but even so it's a dicey deal. Many people, including myself, are so allergic to penicillin that one shot would kill us. But many others have been cured and saved by the antibiotic. Every drug has it's up and down side. Just like life, we take a risk everytime we incarnate. Just my 2 cents worth. - Ann E. Bermingham From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 14 03:10:26 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:10:26 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960713221330.2f0f266c@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning Hi Ann: You may have seen my response to Jim. If you have any further interest in the subject, send a message to the auto responder and get the complete list of supporting documents from betty. I have gotten some of them. As explained in my previous response, for some especially diabetics, the issue is a very serious one. Finally each one of us makes up our own minds and live with it. But I do not want someone to overlook the possibility and regret when it is too late. As of this writing, at least three on this list have stopped using aspartame. MK Ramadoss PS: did you attend the Annual Meeting? when you have time, why don't you post your report so that we can know what went on. ====================================================== At 10:34 PM 7/13/96 -0400, you wrote: >Jim: >>"NeutraPoison"? Doss, I don't doubt your motives for posting someone else's >>propaganda, but when they use terms like "NeutraPoison" and "grand mal >>seizures of pilots in aircraft cabins," it makes me wonder about their >>objectivity.. . > >I wonder about their objectives. > >Thanks for the informative post, Jim. Over the years I've seen many food and >drug scares that seemed to do little but sell books. I remember back in the >70's when sugar was looked upon with as much suspicion as aspartame. Many >chemicals in our environment have been accused of causing much of humanity's >ills, but let's face it, millions of people got sick and died before anyone ever >dreamed of these chemicals. They died . . . the old-fashioned way. From the >plague, cholera, childhood diseases, childbirth, pneumonia, sword wounds, >infections, torture, guillotine, etc. > >Drugs and chemicals need testing and regulation, but even so it's a dicey deal. >Many people, including myself, are so allergic to penicillin that one shot would >kill us. But many others have been cured and saved by the antibiotic. Every >drug has it's up and down side. Just like life, we take a risk everytime we >incarnate. > >Just my 2 cents worth. > >- Ann E. Bermingham From euser@euronet.nl Sun Jul 14 15:19:25 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:19:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607141519.RAA01242@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Russian correwspondence Liesel wrote: >Dear TI folks > >I wish some of you would also write to him. Hi Liesel, your wish is already (partly) fulfilled. I correspond with Konstantin already for about a month or so. Martin From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 14 04:08:25 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:08:25 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714000823_433743812@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle Alan, The road to convention certainly is. My goodness you really are prolific. Chuck the Heretic From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 14 05:47:04 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: re: stuck in the middle In-Reply-To: <9607121958.AA13915@toto.csustan.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jerry, I am sorry to say that perhaps I was wrong. Do not pay much attention to "olcott being a successor to Blavatsky"--it's an involuntary mistake, I meant "Besant being a successor to Olcott." After more careful studying of certain volumes of Blavatsky's Collected Writings, I have found that she did insist that the E.S. students are to be pledged to their Higher Selves. So she's cleared of my false accusations. Thanks for your clarification, Max On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > Max writes: > >Jerry, > >I cannot provide much evidence right now--my impression is based > >on my reading during a long period of time. What first comes to > >my mind is how Olcott as a successor to Blavatsky has been > >chosen, and how Besant has been chosen next. > > JHE > What do you mean by Olcott being a "successor to Blavatsky"? > Olcott was elected President of the TS in 1875 when it was > founded. HPB was Corresponding Secretary from that time until > 1885, when the General Council asked her to resign. The only > other office she held in the TS was General Secretary of the > British Section from about 1887 until her death in 1891. It is > true that Besant did follow Olcott as President of the TS. She > was supposed to have been nominated by Olcott for that office, as > provided by the bylaws. But as you may know, the circumstances > behind that "nomination" are very suspicious. > > JHE > >>But even in the ES of HPB's day, > >> members took a pledges to their "Higher Self," not to the > >> outer head. Under Besant, that all changed. > > MAX > >As to the ES of HPB's days, I browsed through Compiler's > >Introduction to "Esoteric Instructions" (Blavatsky's Collected > >Writings, v.12, p. 479-511), and found a lot of refernces to > >Masters, not all of them being in tune with what you had to say > >(e.g. p.488 ["The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, > >of whom H.P.Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section"]). > > JHE > Yes, HPB claimed to be the direct representative of the Masters. > But as I stated earlier, the members made a pledge to their > higher selves, *not* to HPB or to the Masters. Under Besant, > this changed and she had the members pledge obedience to her. > Another important difference is that in HPB's time, the ES was > *not* formed for the purpose of guiding or manipulating the TS, > but to give further instruction to those who pledged themselves > to make an effort towards spiritual development. Under Besant, > the ES became an outlet for CWL's revelations, and ES members who > wanted to be in favor with the Masters were also expected to be > active in the Liberal Catholic Church, Co-Masonry and if they > seemed to be promising workers for the cause, they would be > invited to join the Egyptian Rite. > > Therefore, I agree with your contention that all of these > revelations from the Masters, and the idea of obedience to them > is a major factor in the ruin of the TS. I also agree that this > "karma got built in the very structure of the Society, so there > is little hope for T.S. to survive." But I disagree that this > encouragement of "unquestioning obedience" began with HPB and > HSO. HPB considered this for the ES but realized that such a > method was not suitable for a western audience, so she dropped > the idea immediately. But Besant adopted this idea when she took > over the ES. However, I see a major difference between HPB being > the "mouthpiece" for the Master's teachings, and the changes AB > and CWL brought about to made them spokes persons for what the > Masters desire or do not desire the members to do. To put it > another way, HPB encouraged her students towards autonomy, while > Besant encouraged them towards obedience to the Masters. > Obviously this was a distinction that most members were (and > perhaps still are) unable to make during Besant's time. Those > who did recognize this difference, either stayed on as the loyal > opposition, or left the TS completely. Those who stayed on as > the loyal opposition, had the CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST to express > their views when Besant would not publish them in the journals > under her control. For those who left, some of them started > opposing magazines or Organizations. The Arcane school and the > Anthroposophical Society are two examples. > > Jerry > > ------------------------------------------ > |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | > |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | > |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | > |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | > > ------------------------------------------ > From cdgert@rci.ripco.com Sun Jul 14 07:43:33 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:43:33 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@rci.ripco.com (CDGertrude) Message-Id: Subject: Re: Quoting Messages In-Reply-To: <199607121914.MAA00302@primenet.com> from "Shaman" at Jul 12, 96 03:19:29 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 232 I agree wholeheartedly! Quoting doesn't seem to add that much context to the reply. If the respondent writes in a lucid manner, even newcomers to the mailing list should understand the thread & response. Gertrude the Churchmouse From cdgert@rci.ripco.com Sun Jul 14 07:48:44 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:48:44 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@rci.ripco.com (CDGertrude) Message-Id: Subject: Re: here I go In-Reply-To: <960712013657_575046357@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "Drpsionic@aol.com" at Jul 12, 96 01:39:33 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 109 Chuck the Heretic.... How, exactly, does one pray for a heathen? Just wondering.... Gertrude the Churchmouse From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 13 21:25:21 1996 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:25:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Winning and losing In-Reply-To: <960713153939_76400.1474_HHL39-3@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960713153939_76400.1474_HHL39-3@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> writes >For an example, take karma. Right. > Now I have suggested >that karma is a whole lot more complicated than the simple >idea of rewards and punishments. I am sure this is right too, in fact I personally doubt that it has anything to do with reward and punishments at all, but is, as the material says it is, the *law* of karma, eg., you bang your head on the wall and it hurts. The *need* in terms of actions we can take, is not to be "goody-goody" or the reverse, but to study, learn, and understand the *law* and how it works. > This does not mean that >"karma is rewards and punishments for our actions" is wrong. .. so that some "karmic consequences" will seem like these, especially when we know what we did to get them ... >I am really only suggesting that there is more to it than that. .. with which view I concur! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 14 11:47:16 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:47:16 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714074715_358807012@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: More on the Energy (update) Since I never use aspartame, I don't know, but it is very interesting. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 14 11:48:42 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:48:42 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714074842_358807192@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Helmets and ABA (to Chuck) Jerry, You think you're a glutton for punishment--I'm suffering through the TSA convention. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 14 11:46:58 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:46:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714074656_358807229@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Aspartame Warning Doss, Show me a person who worries about this stuff and I'll show you someone who wears seat belts! Chuck the Fearless. From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 14 11:48:47 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:48:47 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714074846_358807250@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: convention day 2 I'm still alive!!!! Yes, I'm just as amazed as the rest of you, but John hasn't tried to kill me yet. He just sort of ignores me like a petulant child. Or maybe he just has a lot on his mind. Anyway, I have some good news and some terrible news. First the good news. The TSA is not merely getting a web page up, it is getting it's own domain, so it will be able to ultimately do all kinds of kool stuff with its web site but first they have to solve a little problem. Reuben says they can view the page on netscape but not on other browsers, so if anyone has a solution, please e-mail him. They are also trying to put together a moderated (read censored) newsgroup and that is probably why they are tre pissed at Uncle Chuckie because I sort of started an unmoderated one and we all know which is going to get more traffic. I feel sorry for the poor fool who gets stuck with the moderator job. He will go nuts very quickly. Now for the real very bad terrible horrible news. They are keeping the Quest going, which means that we will be blessed with more brainless blather from the great fool Andrew Harvey, the incomprehensible wordiness of Ken Wilbur, and the continuing lunatic ravings of Georg Feurstein, along with assorted has-beens and new agers who have been blessed with more degrees than sense that that rag is noted for. Oh well, I can still line the cat box. I was actually able to eat supper in the dining room tonight. I know I pick on Bobbie Jo a lot, but her lasagna is actually good, for vegetarian stuff. More tomorrow. Chuck the Heretic From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 14 13:21:10 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:21:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: convention day 2 In-Reply-To: <960714074846_358807250@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > The TSA is not merely getting a web page up, it is getting it's own domain, When? Last time I checked, the domain was not registered yet. Domain registration is very simple and costs $100 fee for two years. > so it will be able to ultimately do all kinds of kool stuff with its web site > but first they have to solve a little problem. Reuben says they can view the > page on netscape but not on other browsers, so if anyone has a solution, > please e-mail him. They are also trying to put together a moderated (read > censored) newsgroup and that is probably why they are tre pissed at Uncle > Chuckie because I sort of started an unmoderated one and we all know which is > going to get more traffic. Some years ago, Krishnamurti Foundation tried a moderated list and it was a flop. The one that is active now is an unmoderated and the owner is seen nowhere - lurking very deep - like John Mead here. This is what works. I wish good luck. The problem that Ruben has should be solvable with a simple phone consultation with one of the professionals, which of course would cost some money. It is a trade off between time and money. Of course he will be able to finally figure it out given enough time. > I feel sorry for the poor fool who gets stuck with the moderator job. He > will go nuts very quickly. It would be interesting to find out who the willing victim is. > Now for the real very bad terrible horrible news. > They are keeping the Quest going, which means that we will be blessed with When Dorothy was the President, I suggested that they not send me the Quest because it straight goes to the trash can. My annual dues could be reduced and I will donate the savings to my local lodge for its use. MK Ramadoss From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Sun Jul 14 22:01:08 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:01:08 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607142358.RAA21037@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 590 At 04:06 PM 7/14/96 -0400, theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM > >Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in theos-bud >or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from its >direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. Thank you for bringing this up! I feel EXACTLY the same way. At THE FEET OF THE MASTER is a wonderful how-to book for students who are on the path. It's study would be MOST welcome as far as I am concerned. Bjorn From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 15 03:49:30 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:49:30 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714234929_576770537@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: here I go Gertie, With drums, human sacrifices, and lots and lots of inscense. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 15 03:50:43 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:50:43 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960714235042_576771125@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Winning and losing After convention is over I think I may start posting something about Karma, but for the moment I'll simply say that its fascinating all the stuff people write about something that may not even exist. Chuck the Heretic From mike@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com Mon Jul 15 14:11:24 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:11:24 -0500 From: "Michael W. Grenier" Message-Id: <31EA518C.257D@planet8.eag.unisysgsg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Fwd: MMNewsletter for Woden's Day, 7/10/96] References: <31E81B57.5C58@whanganui.ac.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bee Brown wrote: > To anyone who feels that this is not a theos thing, I apologise for this > posting but I thought some might be interested in the goings on out > there in the big wide world. There are some mighty problems looming at > the end of this millenium. > UNITED STATES -- Fueled by drought, firefighters in Arizona, > California, Colorado, Idaho, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, > and Utah, battled brush and woodland fires in the worst > summer wildfire season in memory -- three times normal. Since I've lived in Minnesota my whole life and this seems to be one of the best weather years I can remember, I question the source of some of this material. I've not heard of any fires and my lawn and trees are as green as can be. -Mike From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 13 23:09:23 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:09:23 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Maxim Osinovsky! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 15 04:07:40 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 00:07:40 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: AT THE FEET of the MASTER Message-Id: <960715040740_74024.3352_BHT94-3@CompuServe.COM> > Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in theos-bud > or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from its > direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. > > Keith Price Any serious study of any book can be revealing only if you put some of the things discussed in practice. We can bring up one issue at a time on AFM and we can all exchange our individual viewpoints. I do not know if theo-l is the most appropriate forum. I whole heartedly support your idea. Let us hear further feedback. Keith: I will see if HEADQUATERS might have an e-mail version to upload. We can go to theos-roots if there is no objection from John Mead. It will of course be a free wheeling discussion with no "leader". We can consider THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE if there is more interest. Namaste Keith Price From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Mon Jul 15 04:16:22 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:16:22 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31E9C616.4DF1@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: AT THE FEET of the MASTER References: <960715040740_74024.3352_BHT94-3@CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Price wrote: > > > Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in > theos-bud > > or roots? We are studying it in Houston and I am gaining a lot of help from > its > > direct approach for those on the path as opposed to those that study the path. > > > > Keith Price > > Any serious study of any book can be revealing only if you put > some of the things discussed in practice. > > We can bring up one issue at a time on AFM and we can all > exchange our individual viewpoints. I do not know if theo-l is the most > appropriate forum. I whole heartedly support your idea. Let us hear > further feedback. > > Keith: > > I will see if HEADQUATERS might have an e-mail version to upload. We can go to > theos-roots if there is no objection from John Mead. It will of course be a > free wheeling discussion with no "leader". We can consider THE VOICE OF THE > SILENCE if there is more interest. > > Namaste > Keith Price I have a copy of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE here at home and it would interest me to discuss it as some of the things I am not sure I really understand but which ever one, I am a starter, Bee Brown From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 15 01:37:22 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:31:33 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607150533.AA12489@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Prophency and Krishnamurti Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= Subject: Prophecy and Krishnamurti >for: ramadoss@eden.com Hello! >last quarter of this century, based on what she stated, it appears that JK's >role seems to fit. As for timing, even though he made his famous "Truth is a >Pathless Land" statement and that Truth cannot be put in a box in twenties, >his was very active in sixties onwards. Much of the current publications and I've seen several photographs of Krishnamurti made from his childhood till his death. And it seems to me that his face in in these periods looks quite different. Shape may mislead, of cource, but in case of the _same_ man it should be useful to analyse it. In early photographs, taken in his childhood, Krishnamurti seems to have some inspiration, in the age of 30 - 50 he looks like an ordinary man, but when he became old, he began to remind "original" Krishnamurti of 1910's. It should be noted that I have only limited set of his photograps, but many of you probably have more photos & videos and even seen him "live", so you can easily approve or refute my observation. Maybe he lost connection with a higher self and later re- established it? I've read here some criticizm that T.S. publishes too much biographies & memoirs on history of T.S. Maybe we could gain some meaning from them, if we suppose that all history of T.S. should be understood "esoterically", i.e. TS leaders re- present principles of man, and Krishnamurti represents Buddhi, or Christ in man. CWL may represent Kama, an AB - Manas. So this story shows that if Christ be even born, he can leave the personality if attitude to him is wrong, and after that Kama & Manas dissolve and personality die :) I afraid that we couldn't revive T.S. till "mistery of Krish- namurti" solution. W/best regards, Konstantin Zaitzev 2:5020/360.4 Fidonet Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 15 01:38:43 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:30:47 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607150533.AA12488@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Masters, etc. Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= Subject: Masters, etc. >for: Alexis Hello! a> Shaman, I find the "(not merely devas)" aside to be a little egotistical. a> What do you mean by it? I find a physical person trying to socially grade a> non-physical centers-of-consciousness just a hair pretentious. One can perceive only vibrations which correspond to his own. You can find this explanation in any popular theosophical book. a> I repeat what I said above: Cycles apply clearly in the physical levels of a> the realities, they do NOT apply in the non-physical realms. You ignored Chizhevsky (sometimes spelled as Tscijevsky) in his book "Physical factors of the historical process" publushed in 1924 showed that spots on the sun affects human behaviour, i.e. emotional state. I've heard that he was a theosophist, but anyway, he is acknowledged scientist here. Some of his state- ments show that he borrowed ideas from theosophical literatu- re. He wrote: "The course of the universal historical process is composed of an uninterrupted row of cycles", and concluded his book by a phrase - "Closer to the Sun - closer to Truth". He also discovered that ionized air affects a man's health, - he could be lead to this conclusion by theosophical ideas of prana and a chemical ether which may correspond to ionized matter of modern science. a> "faculty of Buddhi".....the thing that is beginning to worry me is that a> I am beginning to be afraid that you think you've got it! Everyone got it, but most people are disassociated with it. HPB bought a site somewhere in USA and lost papers and forgot the place. So she had & haven't it. It makes me more & more think that HPB life should be understood esoterically ;) Or another example: - Captain, can we regard a thing as lost, if we know its location? - Not, of cource. - Well, your cattle is on the bottom of the see: altitude..., longitude... a> She DID???? I thought "Letters on Occult Meditation" were written by Djwal a> Kul (The Tibetan)! And Nicholas Roerich's letters purported to be from "M" What makes you believe in D.K. and not believe in M. & K.H.? BTW, the additional edition of Mahatma Letters (I mean not letters to Sinnett & Hume, but to others) contains testimony of native indians, who have seen masters. Maybe they are false masters & their teaching is wrong, but what is reason to deny them as persons? You'd better refute the teaching itself. That reminds me an official soviet propaganda which denied historical personality of Jesus Christ (even as false-prophet, in which any big empire has no lack), because they couldn't say something else against him. I've checked in Adyar catalogue. It's called "Letters from the masters of wisdom - second series". a> To be honest, I never heard of E. Barker. Surprise. I've thought that her book "Letters from a living dead man" is well-known to western theosophists. It's a series of letters which she wrote down sinse 1914 till 1918, like Cardec's "Book of spirits". Early theosophy denied spiritism, but that spirit regards to theosophy which denied him - he sa- id something like "I can't explain this, because I didn't stu- dy theosophy good enough when I was alive". Yes, he did :) He was not a master, and E.Barker wasn't spiritualist which makes a book more valuable. In the 1st volume he describes his first experience after death, in 2nd - the world war, as it looks from astral plane, in 3rd - problems and mission of USA. "Russia is a country, which in experimental order tries to li- ve without head" - he said :) The first volume was published in 1915 in russian journal "Vestnik Theosophii" (messenger of theosophy), other volumes are published in Russian only recently. I didn't find this bo- ok in Adyar catalogue. Maybe they find it not enough "canoni- cal". ;) a> Konstantin: I thank you, but while I speak 7 languages, Russian is a> unfortunately NOT one of them. Que lastima! I have these "letters" only in Russian in ASCII file. ;) a> Who could foresee the fall of the Soviet union in 1990? Alice Bailey did. She didn't new exact date but she wrote that "dictature will fall soon". She might be mistaken expec- ting this _too soon_. On the other hand, a regim which was af- ter Stalin's death till 1991, wasn't completely "dictature", especially dictature of one man. W/best regards, Konstantin Zaitzev 2:5020/360.4 Fidonet Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 15 05:44:35 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:44:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: AT THE FEET of the MASTER In-Reply-To: <960715040740_74024.3352_BHT94-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Would anybody be interested in a study of At THE FEET OF THE MASTER in > theos-bud > > or roots? > Keith: > > I will see if HEADQUATERS might have an e-mail version to upload. We can go to > theos-roots if there is no objection from John Mead. It will of course be a > free wheeling discussion with no "leader". We can consider THE VOICE OF THE > SILENCE if there is more interest. I would prefer "The Voice of the Silence." Max From jmeier@microfone.net Mon Jul 15 06:48:36 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:48:36 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607151048.AA02600@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Keith re: study group subject Hi Keith, I'd also vote for THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. It's an interesting idea to try an on-line study group; does anybody know of an example where this has worked? Regards, Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 15 12:08:56 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:08:56 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960715080855_156256997@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: convention day 2 Doss, According to Reuben they got the domain name Saturday, which means everything should be up and running soon. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 15 12:10:34 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:10:34 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960715081033_156257363@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: convention day 3 Still alive, surprise, surprise. The day started with Radha's speech. I won't attempt to summarize it here, only to say that it was a very good one and strongly in favor of diversity in the society. I was tempted to cheer on several occasions during it. The rest of the day was pretty dull. I bugged out of the session on giving as a spiritual practice for fear that it would be used as an excuse to pass the hat. The testamonial to Emily Sellon reached new levels of boredom. We learned that she was a nice lady with oodles of money who lived in New York, was a good cook and drove like hell. It finally reached the point where even Jupiter could no longer stand it and fired a thunderbolt outside the window, causing John Algeo to shut up. Evening was the infamous Hodge Podge Lodge about which the less said the better. In this case I was fortunate to miss it because a friend from one of the Chicago lodges arrived and we spent the time talking to him in the downstairs lobby. Summer school begins tomorrow. Yawn. Chuck the Heretic From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 15 13:07:04 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 9:07:04 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607151307.JAA25714@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: AT THE FEET of the MASTER In-Reply-To: ; from "Maxim Osinovsky" at Jul 15, 96 1:46 am According to Maxim Osinovsky: > > Keith: > > > free wheeling discussion with no "leader". We can consider THE VOICE OF THE > > SILENCE if there is more interest. > > > I would prefer "The Voice of the Silence." > > Max > Me too, in fact I'd participate with great interest in the Voice discussion. Paul From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 15 13:33:08 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 09:33:08 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Aspartame Message-Id: <960715133308_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM> Doss: >You may have seen my response to Jim. If you have any further interest in >the subject, send a message to the auto responder and get the complete list >of supporting documents from betty. I have gotten some of them. My interest goes back to the yeast controversy back in the mid-80's. There was a lot publicity about people suffering many illnesses from an overgrowth of candida throughout their body. There was no way to test for it except by symptom. I was a victim of this craze and spent an entire year being treated for something I never had in the first place. I only found out my real problem and received proper treatment when I went to the University of Chicago Medical Center. If someone suspects that aspartame is bothering them, it would be good to abstain from it for a while and see if the symptoms go away. If not, they should go to a good university medical center, where they can do thorough testing and advice and experienced doctors. It is very dangerous to make self-diagnoses just by reading things in the media. Many symptoms fit many different diseases. >As of this writing, at least three on this list have stopped using aspartame. Does this give you a nice sense of power, Doss? : - ) - Ann E. Bermingham From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 15 14:04:30 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 10:04:30 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Convention Day 2 Message-Id: <960715140429_72723.2375_FHP44-1@CompuServe.COM> chuck: >I'm still alive!!!! Me, too!! Since I was in an auto accident on the way back from Olcott, I can say that with even more fervor. Someone suggested I write a report on the Annual Meeting. Since I was only there for Radha's Sunday morning lecture, it might be quite short. No time this year to play at Olcott. >The TSA is not merely getting a web page up, it is getting it's own domain . . . I knew this about this stuff months ago, but was pledged to secrecy. You see, folks, I've been in a kind of bind here. I had friends at the LCC who were also involved with Olcott, so I often road the fence. Not a comfortable place to be. But now I can open my mouth a little wider. For those of you who have wished the LCC extinct, you are close to getting your wish here in Chicago. >They are also trying to put together a moderated (read censored) newsgroup and >that is probably why they are tre pissed at Uncle Chuckie because I sort of >started an unmoderated one and we all know which is going to get more traffic. Is yours called alt.heretic? How would I access it? I know I was briefly on the list that is managed by Eldon, till I came home to theos-l. No one was talking on Eldon's list. IMO, there are two extremes in managing a list. There's the totally free list, where anyone can post anything. Problem is, one or more posters can take over a list and make nasty netiquette errors that irk everyone. Needs someone to slap their knuckles with a cyber-ruler once in a while or threaten "unsubscribe" if things really get out of hand. OTH, the censored list will have only those *select* and *proper* posters being admitted to the list. (snore) >They are keeping the Quest going. . . Oh well, I >can still line the cat box. Ditto. - Ann E. Bermingham From blafoun@azstarnet.com Mon Jul 15 14:46:10 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:46:10 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607151446.HAA22176@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: More Comments & Replies on whether Theosophy has Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings >> From ">Steve Buck : >> Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, >> Subject: supporting dolgurkii Steve Buck wrote: >>.... it would appear that >> Theosophy has taken a turn towards being a religion versus an >> intellectual tool to open awareness. Most people will read a popular >> spiritual doctrine and then simply stop thinking and believe it. It's >> as if someone else put it in writing, they understood it, now I read >> their understanding and don't have to think about it. I can simply >> believe what's on paper and my life/beliefs should be secure. >> Dolgurkii says "make up your own minds" but after reading spiritual doctrines, >> most people have let someone else make up their minds and simply STOP >> thinking. Daniel Caldwell responds: I certainly don't advocate and have never advocated that people should read Blavatsky's books and "then simply stop thinking and believe" them! Nor do I advise people to "let someone else make up their minds and simply STOP thinking." The List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy was compiled and disseminated in the hope that inquirers, new students, etc. might find some of the books of interest and would want to read the books. Let people read the books and decide for themselves what to accept or what to reject. I would encourage students to try to UNDERSTAND what HPB is writing about. In this approach one does not necessarily agree or disagree, believe or disbelieve or accept or reject. Maybe at some later time, one may be inclined to say, "Yes, I agree." or there may be some other response. Steve Buck wrote: >> Caldwells responses to Dolgurkii have been politically correct. However >> the overall point of Dolgurkiis postings seems to have been missed. >> It's very possible and highly probably that Leadbeater and Bailey >> revised existing Blavatsky documents and published them as facsimile >> reproductions. Dolgurkii does not say "they did" he says it is very >> likely. Daniel replies: Is it "highly probable" that Leadbeater or Bailey revised existing Blavatsky writings and subsequently published them as facsimile reproductions? In twenty five years of historical research on HPB and Theosophy, I have never heard anyone even suggest that Leadbeater or Bailey *might* have done such a thing. As far as I am concerned, it is highly improbable. If Steve or Alexis has evidence to support such a contention, please produce it. Leadbeater and Bailey have been accused of many things, but this is a new one to me. My gut reaction would be: "Nonsense." ( Am I being PC?) Steve wrote: >> What's been most interesting about the posts is not who is more right >> but who makes you think more? Caldwell has used quotes and common >> spiritual responses of acceptance to deal with Dolgurkii. Dolgurkii has >> composed extensive postings attempting to provide us with an >> understanding of why and how he has reached his current opinions. To >> me, a quote is a nice foundation to fall back on when I don't understand >>something. Daniel comments: I thought Mr. de Zirkoff's comments were very appropriate to the subject and I wanted to share them. I quoted from HPB's ISIS UNVEILED because Alexis has stated that he holds that book in high regard. HPB's quotes indicate to me that even in ISIS UNVEILED (not to mention HPB's later writings) she claimed that the Adepts had a body of teachings, a body of knowledge. Do not confuse the issues. The Adepts may have a body of knowledge and teachings. That does not mean that inquirers and students of Theosophy should blindly believe these teachings. I would urge students to try to understand the teachings. But this does not mean to stop thinking! Notice the last paragraph of Mr. de Zirkoff's article: ""In the meantime---and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief---we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of the occult aspects of Nature." Furthermore, I do NOT believe that HPB was an infallible person. But based on 25 years of research and study, I believe she was a very knowledgeable person. Furthermore, I do NOT believe in anyone blindly accepting what she or the Masters said. Furthermore, a student of Theosophy is not required to accept any teaching of Theosophy. A dogma is something you must believe or else face the consequences. In the Christian religion, you must believe this, that and the other, OR ELSE face various consequences including going to hell! If I reject the Theosophical teaching on rounds and races, what are the consequences? Steve wrote: >> >> Dolgurkiis focus has been on the TS, but in his postings he has gone on >> to say it's not only the TS, but ANY RELIGION that is harmful to society >>overall. Basically, once something has become 'core doctrine", people >> stop thinking and just believe. One thing for sure, that's the best way >>to control people.... Daniel replies: Certainly there are harmful, negative aspects to any particular religion. Especially when that religion has gained POWER over people. " Do this or believe this or else face the consequences." Yet I believe there is a positive side to religion. There are many beautiful, uplifting ideas in the various world religions. Again, if people stop thinking and just believe, I would agree that that is in the long run harmful and negative. But I don't believe HPB and her Adept Teachers ever advocated "stop thinking and just believe." From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 15 15:18:59 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:18:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Aspartame In-Reply-To: <960715133308_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ann: I agree with what you say. We should never surrender good common sense in all these things. But, being a very cautious person, I personally avoid anything which has even the remotest possibilityf of causing problems. MK Ramadoss =========================================== On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > Doss: > > >You may have seen my response to Jim. If you have any further interest in > >the subject, send a message to the auto responder and get the complete list > >of supporting documents from betty. I have gotten some of them. > > My interest goes back to the yeast controversy back in the mid-80's. There was > a lot publicity about people suffering many illnesses from an overgrowth of > candida throughout their body. There was no way to test for it except by > symptom. I was a victim of this craze and spent an entire year being treated > for something I never had in the first place. I only found out my real problem > and received proper treatment when I went to the University of Chicago Medical > Center. > > If someone suspects that aspartame is bothering them, it would be good to > abstain from it for a while and see if the symptoms go away. If not, they > should go to a good university medical center, where they can do thorough > testing and advice and experienced doctors. It is very dangerous to make > self-diagnoses just by reading things in the media. Many symptoms fit many > different diseases. > > >As of this writing, at least three on this list have stopped using aspartame. > > Does this give you a nice sense of power, Doss? : - ) > > - Ann E. Bermingham > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 15 15:31:02 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:31:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: convention day 2 In-Reply-To: <960715080855_156256997@emout08.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I visited Internic data base which has all the registered domains. It is what is used to route all Internet connections. Interestingly as of 10.30am today I could not find it. I searched for Wheaton in the address. Wonder why it did not show up. MK Ramadoss On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > According to Reuben they got the domain name Saturday, which means everything > should be up and running soon. > > Chuck From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 15 16:48:50 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 12:48:50 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607151648.MAA09409@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Voice vs. At the Feet Rather than just expressing a preference, I thought it might be helpful to comment on the differences between the two books. At the Feet of the Master is one of the most controversial books in Theosophical history. The bulk of scholarly opinion is that it was written by Leadbeater and that K. had it foisted upon him; moreover that this was designed to promote the growing worship of K. as the World Teacher. Even though there may be many fine sentiments expressed in it, the book makes me uncomfortable due to its suspicious provenance and I would therefore decline to participate in a discussion of it. That's not to say others shouldn't do so. I don't want to adhere to the "Core teachings vs. heresy" paradigm. But the Voice of the Silence has the virtue of being much more widely accepted among different Theosophists. It also has several qualities that I don't find in ATFM: intellectual depth, literary beauty, spiritual inspiration, historical interest. Others feel differently but that's my 2 cents. From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 13 23:10:27 1996 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:10:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 Theosophy International welcomes Maxim Osinovsky! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 15 17:26:42 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 13:26:42 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607151726.NAA17371@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Core teachings Thanks to Daniel C. for forwarding discussions from alt.theosophy so that theos-l can continue to reverberate with pro- and anti- Alexis controversy :) Just when we thought it was safe to go back in the water! But since the subject is on the table, here's a comment. I have read, on theos-talk, comments from Eldon and Dara that frankly disparage Theosophists (not by name, but as a group) who do not adhere to the "core teachings" to their satisfaction. The gist of the messages was "unfortunately, some Theosophists have different approaches than ours." That almost provokes a "back-at-ya" response from me that *I* think it's unfortunate that some Theosophists have different approaches than *ours*-- meaning the liberals. But in fact, I *don't* consider it unfortunate that there are Theosophists who are theologically conservative, focused on preserving tradition, suspicious of new ideas. There's a bell curve in almost any movement from liberal to conservative, and I don't mind being far out on the liberal end of the Theosophical spectrum. (Meaning those who are eclectic in orientation, value relevance and applicability more than tradition, and hope for a more open-minded approach in the movement at large.) What I *do* find *most unfortunate* is having the conservatives constantly insinuating that my (meaning anyone with progressive views) being a Theosophist at all is "unfortunate." What kind of dialogue is possible with someone who says "I find it unfortunate that someone like you is in the Theosophical movement?" So this business about core doctrines is being misused and misunderstood, IMO. Of course there are "core doctrines" in the sense that HPB's teachings have a certain integrity and internal consistency, that Purucker for example tends to stay within that framework while Bailey or Leadbeater go outside it. "Core teachings" are simply a matter of fact. But the argument does not seem to be over the "is" but rather the "ought." Meaning, do we as contemporary Theosophists privilege certain texts over others, and if so which ones and how much? How do we define some things as central, others as peripheral, and others as out of bounds? As I understand HPB, it was NEVER the intention of herself or her teachers to create a sacred canon or to encourage exclusivistic, patronizing attitudes toward those outside the bounds of the "core teachings." But I'm afraid those attitudes are quite prevalent in the movement. That makes the "core teachings" a weapon used to silence or at least to marginalize ideas that are new and threatening to an orthodoxy which is all the more powerful because its advocates are in deep denial about their own orthodoxy. (I know, being a recovering Orthodox Theosophist myself.) To evoke Richard's theme, I see here a figure/ground reversal problem related to Theosophy/theosophy. The "core teachings" conservatives say in essence, "yes, theosophy uncapitalized is a common noun referring to a broad category of doctrines and practices, BUT that is of little importance compared to the authoritative pronouncements of the Masters and HPB which we know as Theosophy." For them theosophy is of secondary significance and Theosophy's the real attraction. Whereas for the liberals who are suspicious of all this "core teachings" talk, it's theosophy in general that is the main attraction, the reason for the society's existence, the eternal source of inspiration and joy. Theosophy is one particular expression thereof, bound by the spatio-temporal circumstances under which it was given out, worthwhile in itself but ultimately meant to be used as a pointer to the wider, generic theosophy. I don't defend the rhetoric Alexis has used in carrying on this discussion, or his speculation about HPB's books being rewritten by others. But his essential observation is correct, I think. HPB never intended that "core teachings" be used as a weapon whereby orthodox Theosophists make eclectic theosophists feel unwelcome in the movement she founded. And it has happened, not just in the Judge wing of the movement but now increasingly in the Adyar TS as well. Lately hardly an AT issue goes by without some message to that effect. From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Mon Jul 15 14:38:06 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:35:06 -3 From: Subject: Historic Jesus Message-Id: Jerry Ekins said >As you get deeper into HPB, you will find that her ideas concerning Jesus are quite radical >from a Christian point of view. In ISIS UNVEILED, she makes a distinction between the >biblical, the theological, and the historical Jesus. Unless, you keep this in mind, it is very >easy to become confused as to which Jesus she is talking about. HPB's historical Jesus >lived about 100 years earlier than the Biblical Jesus, and did not know Pilate or John the >Baptist. Her biblical Jesus is built from traditions and revelations of early Christian >communities not contemporary to Jesus. HPB only refers to Sepher Toldoth. What more ? I could identify only this reference in Unveiled Isis. But even the historical Jesus at Sepher Toldoth is little consistent when compared with anothers historical documents. Sepher Toldoth says about maccabee reign of Jannaeus, that reigned during 104bc to 78bc, member of the hasmonean family of jewish leaders and rulers comprising the sons of Mattathias and their descendents that reigning in Judea from 167bc to 37bc. http://www.demon.co.uk/solbaram/indexes/judais.html http://www.demon.co.uk/solbaram/articles/fn2.html MACCABEAN DYNASTY Third Generation: Country Consolidated, Conflict Between Royal Brothers, Increased, Conflict Between Opposing Factions When Judah Aristobulus died his brother Alexander Yannai married the widow (as required by Jewish law) and ruled Judea for just under 30 years. During Alexander Yannai's reign the conflict between opposing factions deepened. It seems that he was ruthless and that secular and religious power were concentrated in his hands to a previously unknown extent. Gibbon at Decline and fall of Roman Empire Vol I, p212 reproduce Annals XV,44 of Tacitus that says: "with this view, he (Nero) inflicts the most exquisite tortures on those men, who under vulgar appelation of christians, were already branded with deserved infamy. They derived their name and origen from Christ, who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate". Gibbon page 729 concludes: "this testimony is alone sufficient to expose the anachronism of the jews who place the birth of Christ near a century sooner (Basnage Histoire des Jufs 1.v.c.14,15). the authenticity of Sepher Toldoth is also uncertain, because it "did not appear before the thirteen century" . http://www.catholic.com we can find: The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, "Contra Cels.," I, 28, 32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath"', xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century. at http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers at file ECF04.TXT Origen, "Contra Cels.," I, 28 And since, in imitation of a rhetorician training a pupil, he introduces a Jew, who enters into a personal discussion with Jesus, and speaks in a very childish manner, altogether unworthy of the grey hairs of a philosopher, let me endeavour, to the best of my ability, to examine his statements, and show that he does not maintain, throughout the discussion, the consistency due to the character of a Jew. For he represents him disputing with Jesus, and confuting Him, as he thinks, on many points; and in the first place, he accuses Him of having "invented his birth from a virgin," and upbraids Him with being "born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God." Now, as I cannot allow anything said by unbelievers to remain unexamined, but must investigate everything from the beginning, I give it as my opinion that all these things worthily harmonize with the predictions that Jesus is the Son of God. Abrantes From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 14 23:12:30 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:12:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Stuck in the Middle In-Reply-To: <960714000823_433743812@emout12.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960714000823_433743812@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >The road to convention certainly is. >My goodness you really are prolific. > >Chuck the Heretic *** blush *** --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 15 18:45:31 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 14:45:31 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Convention Day 2 Message-Id: <960715184530_72723.2375_FHP83-1@CompuServe.COM> MK Ramadoss: >> The TSA is not merely getting a web page up, it is getting it's own domain, >When? Last time I checked, the domain was not registered yet. >Domain registration is very simple and costs $100 fee for two years. Has the price gone down? My husband, the computer guru, tells me that they usually cost $200, but it varies with the type of license. > . . . so it will be able to ultimately do all kinds of kool stuff with its web site > but first they have to solve a little problem. Reuben says they can view the > page on netscape but not on other browsers, so if anyone has a solution, > please e-mail him. My hubby also sez that at one time Netscape was thought to be the ONLY browser that anyone one would want to use, so things were often set up this way. >The problem that Ruben has should be solvable with a simple phone >consultation with one of the professionals, which of course would cost >some money. It is a trade off between time and money. Of course he will >be able to finally figure it out given enough time. Or have the right person do it for free. - Ann E. Bermingham From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 15 20:34:47 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:34:47 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Voice vs. At the Feet In-Reply-To: <199607151648.MAA09409@leo.vsla.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Let me add my 2 cents worth. AFM is, it appears, the most widely translated and most widely distributed book as compared to Voice. I go along with whatever anyone wants to study - AFM, Voice or anything else. Let us study and discuss. MK Ramadoss On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Rather than just expressing a preference, I thought it might be > helpful to comment on the differences between the two books. > At the Feet of the Master is one of the most controversial > books in Theosophical history. The bulk of scholarly opinion > is that it was written by Leadbeater and that K. had it foisted > upon him; moreover that this was designed to promote the > growing worship of K. as the World Teacher. Even though there > may be many fine sentiments expressed in it, the book makes me > uncomfortable due to its suspicious provenance and I would > therefore decline to participate in a discussion of it. That's > not to say others shouldn't do so. I don't want to adhere to > the "Core teachings vs. heresy" paradigm. But the Voice of the > Silence has the virtue of being much more widely accepted among > different Theosophists. It also has several qualities that I > don't find in ATFM: intellectual depth, literary beauty, > spiritual inspiration, historical interest. Others feel > differently but that's my 2 cents. From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Jul 15 20:42:08 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:42:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Convention Day 2 In-Reply-To: <960715184530_72723.2375_FHP83-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > MK Ramadoss: > >> The TSA is not merely getting a web page up, it is getting it's own domain, > > >When? Last time I checked, the domain was not registered yet. > >Domain registration is very simple and costs $100 fee for two years. > > Has the price gone down? My husband, the computer guru, tells me that they > usually cost $200, but it varies with the type of license. It used to be free till early this year when the fee of $50 per year was imposed. Some ISPs charge anywhere from $25 to $100 for handling the registration which could be handled directly if one has the time and interest. > > > . . . so it will be able to ultimately do all kinds of kool stuff with its web > site > > but first they have to solve a little problem. Reuben says they can view the > > page on netscape but not on other browsers, so if anyone has a solution, > > please e-mail him. > > My hubby also sez that at one time Netscape was thought to be the ONLY browser > that anyone one would want to use, so things were often set up this way. > > >The problem that Ruben has should be solvable with a simple phone > >consultation with one of the professionals, which of course would cost > >some money. It is a trade off between time and money. Of course he will > >be able to finally figure it out given enough time. > > Or have the right person do it for free. > Yes, if you can find one. > - Ann E. Bermingham MK Ramadoss From jem@vnet.net Mon Jul 15 21:21:19 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607152121.RAA06594@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS/Feet of the Masters hi - I think studying a particular bokk is a good idea to try. probably, since the discussion would be on classic TS literature it would fit best on theos-roots. MHO peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 15 21:46:47 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 17:46:47 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Aspartame Message-Id: <960715214647_72723.2375_FHP73-1@CompuServe.COM> Doss: >I agree with what you say. We should never surrender good common sense in >all these things. But, being a very cautious person, I personally avoid >anything which has even the remotest possibilityf of causing problems. Yes, since my accident, I'm beginning to think of not incarnating here again until they eliminate all cars from the road. : - ) Ann From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 16 00:23:32 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 20:23:32 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Study Group Subject Message-Id: <960716002332_72723.2375_FHP57-1@CompuServe.COM> Jim: >I'd also vote for THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. So do I, but I'd need a copy and let me know what list it's to be on. >It's an interesting idea to try an on-line study group; does anybody know of >an example where this has worked? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that's what theos-l was or could be. -Ann E. Bermingham From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 16 01:11:30 1996 Date: 15 Jul 96 21:11:30 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Core teachings Message-Id: <960716011130_76400.1474_HHL74-1@CompuServe.COM> Paul, I couldn't have said it better myself. Jerry S. Member, TI From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Jul 16 01:29:56 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:29:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Aspartame In-Reply-To: <960715214647_72723.2375_FHP73-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ann: I hope you are ok. All accidents are unavoidable. Many times it is fault of the other drivers or circumstances beyond your control. ..Ramadoss =================================== On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > Doss: > >I agree with what you say. We should never surrender good common sense in > >all these things. But, being a very cautious person, I personally avoid > >anything which has even the remotest possibilityf of causing problems. > > Yes, since my accident, I'm beginning to think of not incarnating here again > until they eliminate all cars from the road. : - ) > > Ann > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Tue Jul 16 00:38:37 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:38:37 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EAE48D.7D9D@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Core teachings References: <199607151726.NAA17371@leo.vsla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Thanks to Daniel C. for forwarding discussions from > alt.theosophy so that theos-l can continue to reverberate with > pro- and anti- Alexis controversy :) Just when we thought it > was safe to go back in the water! > > But since the subject is on the table, here's a comment. I > have read, on theos-talk, comments from Eldon and Dara that > frankly disparage Theosophists (not by name, but as a group) > who do not adhere to the "core teachings" to their > satisfaction. The gist of the messages was "unfortunately, > some Theosophists have different approaches than ours." That > almost provokes a "back-at-ya" response from me that *I* think > it's unfortunate that some Theosophists have different > approaches than *ours*-- meaning the liberals. But in fact, I > *don't* consider it unfortunate that there are Theosophists who > are theologically conservative, focused on preserving > tradition, suspicious of new ideas. There's a bell curve in > almost any movement from liberal to conservative, and I don't > mind being far out on the liberal end of the Theosophical > spectrum. (Meaning those who are eclectic in orientation, > value relevance and applicability more than tradition, and hope for > a more open-minded approach in the movement at large.) What I > *do* find *most unfortunate* is having the conservatives constantly insinuating > that my (meaning anyone with progressive views) being a Theosophist > at all is "unfortunate." What kind of dialogue is possible > with someone who says "I find it unfortunate that someone like > you is in the Theosophical movement?" I must have missed something as I cannot remember getting such a message. I can understand why theos-talk was started after the repeated put-downs on discussions by some who were annoyed by the deeper discussions on the core taeaching that cropped up at times. I thought it was possible to have more than one thread running side by side and the boring ones will get ignored by anyone not interested in them. We don't all have to be involved in every discussion going on on theos-l. Theos-talk has made no secret that it is for discussing the core teachings and related matters. Even a recent brief chat by myself and two others on 'sishtas' got a BORING response by other participants. What can be discussed then? We are all so different that surely several discussions can run at the same time without some listers getting crabby. > > So this business about core doctrines is being misused and > misunderstood, IMO. Of course there are "core doctrines" in > the sense that HPB's teachings have a certain integrity and > internal consistency, that Purucker for example tends to stay > within that framework while Bailey or Leadbeater go outside > it. "Core teachings" are simply a matter of fact. But the > argument does not seem to be over the "is" but rather the > "ought." Meaning, do we as contemporary Theosophists privilege > certain texts over others, and if so which ones and how much? > It shouldn't matter who likes which writings better. They all have something for somebody. We can't all have the same way of thinking so that only certain books can be called 'true'. What has significance for me does not necessarily do the same for someone else but I respect their right to get their enlightenment from what ever suits them. Yet I understand that HPB was the disseminater of the age old wisdom into this era, restating what has always been known from time immemorial. It seems sensible to some to get their facts from the horse's mouth, so to speak rather than someone elses' interpretation of HPB. I wandered into the TS around 6 years ago and a flick through the SD was enough to turn to Annie Besant and other easier to read stuff. But they referred back to the SD on many occasions and I really didn't know if what they said was so and I like to know for myself what, to my mind, is so and what isn't. Three of us started a study group n SD and at least got to grips with some of the Sanskrit words. I had been pointed in the direction of dePurucker by our librarian but those large books looked like the SD so I looked the other way. About a year ago I got tired of having to accept other people's evaluation of the core teachings and so got into GdeP in the hope that after reading him I might tackle the SD and get somewhere. I am enjoying GdeP ver much and my view of my world and the universe has expanded and range over millions of years. The impact on my own life has been to give the ego a shake up and to see that my little self is very necessary yet not a big deal in the scheme of things. I have learned the reasons for the moral and ethical teachings in the various systems that before seemed a good way to regulate social relations but now I can see deeper into the whys of some of these things. To practice them in my life is easier once I see the rationale for doing so and not just because everyone recommends such behaviour for spiritual growth. I have developed a fascination for the anthropogenesis of the SD through GdeP and so I am reading him, Barborka and the SD. Now where, oh where is there a place where I might discuss these ideas and so understand them better? By the looks of it, nowhere. Once I have grasped a asprct to my satisfaction I move my enthusiasm to another so I have no idea where my quest will go next. It seems that neither of the lists want to discuss the deeper aspects of the core teachings. I know that is not all there is to 'theosophy' but it happens that some people get into some parts of it. I got into 'sishtas' because I saw the myth of the Garden of Eden and the concept of a Golden Age maybe stemmed from there.When my speculations made the connection, it was exciting and it was nice to have even a brief discussion on theos-talk to see if my ideas gelled with someone else or was that line of thinking was off the wall. There is noone to discuss these matters with in Wanganui so I figured that I am connected to the world and surely there must be others interested in these areas of thought. I want to know for myself what the core teachings 'teach' and I am prepared to do the study to find out so SD here I come. I don't see the problem as core versus others. When I first got on to the list I too was guilty of crying BORING when Eldon and some others discussed hard things but after a bit I realised that there should be a place for everyone here without getting hassled for 'wrong thinking'. That is why I got into strife with Alexis because I think we should at least respect each other and each others views. Over time many views change and what we think today may not be what we think next year. That's about it from me this time. Bee From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 14 23:11:27 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:11:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Birth Warning In-Reply-To: <960713230206_72723.2375_FHP43-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960713230206_72723.2375_FHP43-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes > Just like life, we take a risk everytime we >incarnate. > >Just my 2 cents worth. > >- Ann E. Bermingham Lords of Karma Warning: Being born can be injurious to your health. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TI.html From blafoun@azstarnet.com Mon Jul 15 14:46:10 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:46:10 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607151446.HAA22176@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: More Comments & Replies on whether Theosophy has Core Doctrines or Basic Teachings >> From ">Steve Buck : >> Newsgroups: alt.theosophy, >> Subject: supporting dolgurkii Steve Buck wrote: >>.... it would appear that >> Theosophy has taken a turn towards being a religion versus an >> intellectual tool to open awareness. Most people will read a popular >> spiritual doctrine and then simply stop thinking and believe it. It's >> as if someone else put it in writing, they understood it, now I read >> their understanding and don't have to think about it. I can simply >> believe what's on paper and my life/beliefs should be secure. >> Dolgurkii says "make up your own minds" but after reading spiritual doctrines, >> most people have let someone else make up their minds and simply STOP >> thinking. Daniel Caldwell responds: I certainly don't advocate and have never advocated that people should read Blavatsky's books and "then simply stop thinking and believe" them! Nor do I advise people to "let someone else make up their minds and simply STOP thinking." The List of Suggested Reading on HPB and Theosophy was compiled and disseminated in the hope that inquirers, new students, etc. might find some of the books of interest and would want to read the books. Let people read the books and decide for themselves what to accept or what to reject. I would encourage students to try to UNDERSTAND what HPB is writing about. In this approach one does not necessarily agree or disagree, believe or disbelieve or accept or reject. Maybe at some later time, one may be inclined to say, "Yes, I agree." or there may be some other response. Steve Buck wrote: >> Caldwells responses to Dolgurkii have been politically correct. However >> the overall point of Dolgurkiis postings seems to have been missed. >> It's very possible and highly probably that Leadbeater and Bailey >> revised existing Blavatsky documents and published them as facsimile >> reproductions. Dolgurkii does not say "they did" he says it is very >> likely. Daniel replies: Is it "highly probable" that Leadbeater or Bailey revised existing Blavatsky writings and subsequently published them as facsimile reproductions? In twenty five years of historical research on HPB and Theosophy, I have never heard anyone even suggest that Leadbeater or Bailey *might* have done such a thing. As far as I am concerned, it is highly improbable. If Steve or Alexis has evidence to support such a contention, please produce it. Leadbeater and Bailey have been accused of many things, but this is a new one to me. My gut reaction would be: "Nonsense." ( Am I being PC?) Steve wrote: >> What's been most interesting about the posts is not who is more right >> but who makes you think more? Caldwell has used quotes and common >> spiritual responses of acceptance to deal with Dolgurkii. Dolgurkii has >> composed extensive postings attempting to provide us with an >> understanding of why and how he has reached his current opinions. To >> me, a quote is a nice foundation to fall back on when I don't understand >>something. Daniel comments: I thought Mr. de Zirkoff's comments were very appropriate to the subject and I wanted to share them. I quoted from HPB's ISIS UNVEILED because Alexis has stated that he holds that book in high regard. HPB's quotes indicate to me that even in ISIS UNVEILED (not to mention HPB's later writings) she claimed that the Adepts had a body of teachings, a body of knowledge. Do not confuse the issues. The Adepts may have a body of knowledge and teachings. That does not mean that inquirers and students of Theosophy should blindly believe these teachings. I would urge students to try to understand the teachings. But this does not mean to stop thinking! Notice the last paragraph of Mr. de Zirkoff's article: ""In the meantime---and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief---we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of the occult aspects of Nature." Furthermore, I do NOT believe that HPB was an infallible person. But based on 25 years of research and study, I believe she was a very knowledgeable person. Furthermore, I do NOT believe in anyone blindly accepting what she or the Masters said. Furthermore, a student of Theosophy is not required to accept any teaching of Theosophy. A dogma is something you must believe or else face the consequences. In the Christian religion, you must believe this, that and the other, OR ELSE face various consequences including going to hell! If I reject the Theosophical teaching on rounds and races, what are the consequences? Steve wrote: >> >> Dolgurkiis focus has been on the TS, but in his postings he has gone on >> to say it's not only the TS, but ANY RELIGION that is harmful to society >>overall. Basically, once something has become 'core doctrine", people >> stop thinking and just believe. One thing for sure, that's the best way >>to control people.... Daniel replies: Certainly there are harmful, negative aspects to any particular religion. Especially when that religion has gained POWER over people. " Do this or believe this or else face the consequences." Yet I believe there is a positive side to religion. There are many beautiful, uplifting ideas in the various world religions. Again, if people stop thinking and just believe, I would agree that that is in the long run harmful and negative. But I don't believe HPB and her Adept Teachers ever advocated "stop thinking and just believe." From alexei@slip.net Tue Jul 16 06:16:51 1996 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:16:51 -0700 From: alexis dolgorukii Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960716061651.006d177c@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Millennial paranoia At 10:14 AM 7/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >Since I've lived in Minnesota my whole life and this seems to be >one of the best weather years I can remember, I question the >source of some of this material. I've not heard of any fires >and my lawn and trees are as green as can be. > > -Mike > Mike: This "millenialism" happens at each turn of a millennia. The end of the 10th century was fraught with insanity, and most historians and psychologists have been worried that the year 1999 would be as full of insanity as the year 999 was. This "web page" and various millennium related organizations prove that the "loonies" are coming out from under their rocks. Just sit back and watch, it's going to get worse before it get's better. alexis dolgorukii From poulsen@dk-online.dk Tue Jul 16 14:41:21 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:41:21 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB7314.215B6AC0@x.dko.global-one.dk> Subject: Re: Core Teachings Encoding: 43 TEXT Bee: >I don't see the problem as core versus others. When I first got on to the >list I too was guilty of crying BORING when Eldon and some others >discussed hard things but after a bit I realised that there should be a place >for everyone here without getting hassled for 'wrong thinking'. That is why I >got into strife with Alexis because I think we should at least respect each >other and each others views. Over time many views change and what we >think today may not be what we think next year. Dear Bee, you may appreciate to know that this very concept of common "core teachings" is something of a blow in the face to some of us. "The problem of core versus others" is inherent in the idea itself - the idea is positively dangerous. Its expounders seems to add various favorite writers according to personal whim to this grouping but still fails to see the self-contradictiory in this barrier-building work. Every day the idea seems to be catching on, probably because it is not refuted - except by the heroic last stand of Richard. Even KPJ seems to have caught on to this idea of a core framework where authors can be inside or outside according to the spiritual insight of the listmaker. As a thought experiment along this line let us pronounce the SD the only acceptable "core teaching" for true Theosophists. Then we will have as our biblical main-source a work which try to synthesize the maximum amount of other works. Can you see the irony in it? Or perhaps these thousands of works would be "core works" as well? Then I would have to state my opinion that the real essential works - the works containing the ideas translated and adressed in the SD - remain largely unquoted. Before attempting to demonstrate such an proposition I would probably have removed myself from the very small core theosophistical enclosure, and there would be no need for me to continue. PS. Just to clarify, Bee, the core idea itself is far older in theosophy than our discussions here - and in fact is common to all religions. Even the original arhats themselves sat down themselves after the death of the Buddha to renumerate essential ideas. Very interestingly they started with something they called "the immutable"... BTW, I do not think there is an "easy-to-read" short-cut to spiritual knowledge. In friendship, Kim From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 16 11:48:09 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:48:09 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960716074807_238732787@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Convention Day 2 Ann, the newsgroup is alt.theosophy and the web page was a pretty open secret. The idea of having newsgroups was kept very quiet indeed. Accessing alt.theosophy is still difficult as the major servers have not yet added it to their listings, but there is a way through the web. http://www.spiritweb.org/cgi/newsgateway.cgi?alt.theosophy. Car accident? I hope you are all right. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 16 11:48:31 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:48:31 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960716074830_238733076@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: convention day 2 Doss, Their web page may not be functional yet. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 16 11:49:10 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:49:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960716074909_238733124@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Summer school, day 1 Well, they haven't killed me yet. Joy was in her usual good form this morning but Radha put me to sleep for a while. It's not that what she has to say isn't interesting, but she has this sort of monotone that knocks me out. I avoided the afternoon program. I hate travelogues and I saw Steve's video of Adyar a couple of years ago. It would be better if he had an elephant stampede and some dancing girls. The evening program was about Star Trek and Theosophy. Unfortunately, Bob Elwood is ill and thus we had his videotape and barebones script for John to work from and it didn't. Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 16 00:59:22 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:59:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Core teachings In-Reply-To: <199607151726.NAA17371@leo.vsla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607151726.NAA17371@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Thanks to Daniel C. for forwarding discussions from >alt.theosophy so that theos-l I disagree, and do not appreciate these postings. I susbscribe to alt.theosophy, and have had to see this item THREE times. ONCE is enough. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net:80/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From aprioripa@pipeline.com Tue Jul 16 13:49:28 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:49:28 GMT From: aprioripa@pipeline.com Message-Id: <199607161349.NAA03094@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Subject: Events at the end of the century (A. Bailey predictions) Hello, Some recent posts have mentioned A. Bailey's predictions as to events during these times, here's a compilation we put together and a meditation: - True astrology will win its rightful place in human society and be revolutionized by the scientific study of the energy relations between celestial manifestations. - The third secret of electricity, the balancing principle, will be discovered by science and used in service of the common good. - Communication with the subtle worlds will be established through telecommunications and photography. - The existence of the immortal human soul will be demonstrated as a fact in nature by science. - Etheric (ionic or physical magnetic) vision or sight will become commonplace. - Millions of people who have made true contact with their higher consciousness will be in incarnation and thousands of human beings who know themselves as Souls and who are totally dedicated to the helping of others and to serving God s Plan will be in incarnation and working for the benefit of our world. - Humanity as a whole will register in mind and brain a contact with the world of the higher consciousness or true spiritual realities (the first initiation of the threshold) and thus be able, through our own hard won abilities, to take a great step forward in evolution. - Angels will increasingly go about the task helping and advising human beings and will do so in a much more open way than has been done in recent centuries. - The Embodied Love of God will return to earth. If these predictions come true it will be because of the freely made right choices of humanity and the development of a truly service oriented motivation in a sufficient number of people so as to allow for the clear understanding and right use of the new revelations. All of these opportunities will and are occurring in complete harmony with the freedom and dignity of each individual person, family, community and nation. PRAYER Goodwill, Love & Service Above everything else in life, give to all who seek your aid the fullest measure of love, for love releases, love adjusts and interprets, and love heals, on all three planes. -- The Tibetan A master is one who has mastered himself in the Love of God or Christ and when a student speaks of his master he is referring to a person who s example he seeks to follow and to whom he is related by shared spiritual interests and devotion to service -- not to one who has any authoritative control over his life. In this spirit of freedom The Son of God known as Christ is the master of the masters. -- PAA The Great Invocation From the point of Light within the Mind of God Let Light stream forth into the minds of men. Let light descend on Earth. From the point of Love within the Heart of God Let love stream forth into the hearts of men. May Christ return to Earth. From the centre where Will of God is known Let Purpose guide the little wills of men -- The Purpose which the Masters know and serve. From the centre which we call the race of men Let the Plan of Love and Light work out And and may it seal the door where evil dwells. Let Light and Love and Power restore the Plan on Earth. OM OM OM Triangles of Goodwill: Forming triangles of relationships with friends and co-workers is a way that we can all help in the spiritual evolution of humanity. We do this by asking two others to participate in a triangle and from time to time (usually during morning meditation) saying the Great Invocation while imagining or visualizing a triangle of right relationship (Love & Light) flowing between us. As each person in a triangle forms more triangles a geometric flow of right relationships in subtle energy evolves for the helping of humanity. Love, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From aprioripa@pipeline.com Tue Jul 16 13:53:13 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:53:13 GMT From: aprioripa@pipeline.com Message-Id: <199607161353.NAA03199@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Subject: Opportunities at the end of this millenium >There are some mighty problems looming at >> the end of this millenium. With several outer planets in retrograde this is as predicted. For example, with Neptune retro look for unusual weather (better or worse than normal). Be of good cheer though benevolent Jupiter is going to conjunct Neptune and Uranus towards the end of this year and early next. Should bring some enlightenment and stability. All part of humanity's happy transformation. Shanti, Patrick *** A.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX 77057 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 16 16:32:49 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 12:32:49 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607161632.MAA01248@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Core teachings In-Reply-To: <31EAE48D.7D9D@whanganui.ac.nz>; from "Bee Brown" at Jul 15, 96 9:48 pm According to Bee Brown: > > I must have missed something as I cannot remember getting such a message. Just yesterday in one case, and a couple of days before in the other. But in general-- I'm as guilty of this as anyone-- we tend not to be sensitive to disparaging remarks made against "them" as we are to those against "us." Maybe we have all just been through some wonderful sensitivity training, though. > taeaching that cropped up at times. I thought it was possible to have more > than one thread running side by side and the boring ones will get ignored by > anyone not interested in them. We should certainly be able to do that. Live and let live does not seem to have ever been adopted as a motto in Theosophical circles; people seem compelled to put down others with different interests. > discussing the core teachings and related matters. Even a recent brief chat > by myself and two others on 'sishtas' got a BORING response by other > participants. What can be discussed then? We are all so different that surely > several discussions can run at the same time without some listers getting > crabby. > If more than two people are interested in a subject, then no matter who finds it boring it belongs on the list. If only two are interested, they should perhaps take it to email. If only one is interested, the thread dies a natural death. > > enlightenment from what ever suits them. Yet I understand that HPB was the > disseminater of the age old wisdom into this era, restating what has always > been known from time immemorial. It seems sensible to some to get their facts > from the horse's mouth, so to speak rather than someone elses' interpretation > of HPB. I agree with you on all but the definite articles. To say that HPB was *a* disseminator of *some* age old wisdom is indisputably correct. *The* disseminator of *the* wisdom smacks of exclusivism and is also historically inaccurate-- there are many disseminators and many wisdoms. HPB may be one's favorite, but there is a "cloud of witnesses." > spiritual growth. I have developed a fascination for the anthropogenesis of > the SD through GdeP and so I am reading him, Barborka and the SD. > Now where, oh where is there a place where I might discuss these ideas and so > understand them better? By the looks of it, nowhere. Has anyone recommended to you the correspondence study program that TS-Pasadena operates by email? I don't know the details, but the address is Theoscorr@aol.com and Nancy Coker is one of the Pasadena HQ people involved. As best I recall Nancy does not have interest in SD anthropogenesis but Pasadena is probably the world's largest collection of people who do. Maybe someone there could be helpful. > I don't see the problem as core versus others. When I first got on to the > list I too was guilty of crying BORING when Eldon and some others discussed > hard things but after a bit I realised that there should be a place for > everyone here without getting hassled for 'wrong thinking'. That is why I got > into strife with Alexis because I think we should at least respect each other > and each others views. Over time many views change and what we think today > may not be what we think next year. Or even tomorrow! Well said, sister. Cheers PJ From euser@euronet.nl Tue Jul 16 20:33:03 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:33:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607162033.WAA22128@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Core teachings (to Paul), long post Paul>But since the subject is on the table, here's a comment. I have read, on theos-talk, comments from Eldon and Dara that frankly disparage Theosophists (not by name, but as a group) who do not adhere to the "core teachings" to their satisfaction. Paul: I've read these messages too, but evaluate them (slightly) different than you do. There is a definite concern in these postings about the Theosophical teachings getting obscured by, tampered with by T/theosophists. While it probably is a valid concern, it can also block any further development of Theosophy as an *organic* set of teachings. It is a most difficult topic of discussion, because of the many aspects that are involved here. Let me comment on a few salient points of your post: Paul>"Core teachings" are simply a matter of fact. But the argument does not seem to be over the "is" but rather the "ought." Meaning, do we as contemporary Theosophists privilege certain texts over others, and if so which ones and how much? That's a personal preference (or group preference) for which should be ample room in lodges. P>How do we define some things as central, others as peripheral, and others as out of bounds? Who is the authority for that? Again, a matter of individual or (sub)group preference. It may be a different matter on the level of official spokespersons/ a president of a TS, etc. These may prefer to proceed in a conservative way. P> As I understand HPB, it was NEVER the intention of herself or her teachers to create a sacred canon or to encourage exclusivistic, patronizing attitudes toward those outside the bounds of the "core teachings." True. In the beginning phase of the TS there probably was a more open attitude of mind toward these issues. Based upon my studies of theosophy and Theosophy (and Gnosis,spiritualism and religions in some degree) I have come to some conclusions which might interest you: 1. Theosophy tries to provide the thread that is common to different religions, esoteric philosophies, etc. It is also *eclectic*, ie it uses every material available to prove or substantiate the points made in its system. Examples: Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosis, Kabbala, esoteric interpretations of holy scriptures, etc, etc. It has synthesized many ideas into an elaborate system of philosophy and , in my opinion, is more interesting and clearer in content than many of the religions, philosophies, etc. from which it borrowed so richly.. Pondering about this eclecticism, I see no reason why the effort of synthesis should not be extended to present day philosophies, scientific findings, etc. In practice, however, this is not what has happened. Times have changed, charismatic figures are not appearing or maybe the attitude of people toward charismatic leadership has changed. What has happened instead is that people with fresh ideas may learn about and from Theosophy but do not wish to be identified with any TS and chose to found a new organization as a vehicle for promulgating their ideas. I've no problem with that, of course. It would be a challenge however, if T/theosophists would cooperate and provide extensions to Theosophy and some new ways of looking at the doctrines (which are basically working hypotheses, not dogmas). The power of the internet offers new possibilities in this respect. To give an example: I'm currently studying Vitvan, an American teacher of Gnosis (deceased in 1962, I think). I recognize many worthwile aspects in his teachings (he rephrased the Wisdom-tradition teachings), so I've made a link (through a little note) on Spiritweb to the site where his teachings are stored. In this way I point readers of my articles to new approaches to the perennial philosophy. Otherwise, people will read many articles relating to spirituality on the internet, and pick from that what is appropriate for them. Times have changed forever, I think. People will decide for themselves what to think and what ideas are useful to consider. (although I believe that there is some guiding principle at work, leading people to consider the paradigm of wholeness as a very important one) 2. It still is an interesting system of doctrines, which can help (many?) people to find their way on their spiritual path. It is, however, clothed in terms which may be partly outdated or not adequate for this era. I'm currently studying this area and may post something about it at some time. Rephrasing some terms, providing new interpretations, extending teachings into the psychological realm may be very necessary to do, in order for people to be able to relate better to the teachings. Some people have done that already, so, in a sense, Theosophical Societies are lagging behind the facts. It's not a disaster, but it can be seen as an omission by the members, I think. It is interesting to note that many theosophists on this list do perceive this omission (even Eldon is beginning to acknowledge the need for rephrasing of part of the teachings, I think, but he must speak for himself). Maybe TI will become a forum for renewal of Theosophy, I don't know. It would probably require a great effort of quite some T/heosophists to do so. I can see at least two areas where Theosophy should be updated/extended: psychology (a lot of work has already been done by transpersonal psychologists plus some others I know of; one area that has been painfully neglected is that of understanding the feeling faculty of humans. Theosophists have focussed largely on the thinking faculty, without acknowledging enough the necessity of, say, empathy. There's a buddhic quality in feeling that is essential to develop, to put into practice; without that you can forget about Theosophy. Empathy is essential in bringing about the first object of the TSs!) science (this will be very difficult; Theosophy does not offer a sufficiently clear and developed framework for that; It may contain some fundamentals, but it is not a suitable ontology for the current state of affairs in science. Note that philosophers of science have searched in vain for a suitable ontology for quantummechanics that would account for non-local effects. I think that it must be some kind of wholistic philosophy, incorporating well defined characteristics of relatedness-in-and-through- the whole. P> But I'm afraid those attitudes are quite prevalent in the movement. That makes the "core teachings" a weapon used to silence or at least to marginalize ideas that are new and threatening to an orthodoxy which is all the more powerful because its advocates are in deep denial about their own orthodoxy. (I know, being a recovering Orthodox Theosophist myself.) HPB herself has warned us to be very critical about believing anything she wrote. That's an attitude we should keep in mind. As an aside: I remind my readers in my article on death (written one and a half year ago) to be very critical about what I write, that one's own experiences must confirm the validity of the Theosophical teachings (if Alexis would have taken the trouble to read it, he might have understood me a little bit better..). In my article on the seven jewels I make another relativizing remark about Theosophy near the end of it. P>To evoke Richard's theme, I see here a figure/ground reversal problem related to Theosophy/theosophy. The "core teachings" conservatives say in essence, "yes, theosophy uncapitalized is a common noun referring to a broad category of doctrines and practices, BUT that is of little importance compared to the authoritative pronouncements of the Masters and HPB which we know as Theosophy." For them theosophy is of secondary significance and Theosophy's the real attraction. Whereas for the liberals who are suspicious of all this "core teachings" talk, it's theosophy in general that is the main attraction, the reason for the society's existence, the eternal source of inspiration and joy. Theosophy is one particular expression thereof, bound by the spatio-temporal circumstances under which it was given out, worthwhile in itself but ultimately meant to be used as a pointer to the wider, generic theosophy. I agree with this evaluation of yours. In practical terms I see it like this: Theosophy can be useful to inquirers, spiritual seekers. If they develop their understanding of life, they may find their own particular interpretation of Theosophy, add some ideas from other systems (eclectic, in the best Theosophical tradition) and lead a happy life :). The only issue that will probably never be fully resolved is the issue of providing extensions to and/or reinterpretations and rephrasings of teachings. TI members may give it a try :) Anyway, with or without the help of Theosophy people *will* develop new epistemologies and ontologies, I have not the least doubt about that and in fact I've seen some attempts of that already in past and present. Theosophical and Eastern notions have entered Western thought already for a long time, so I don't worry a bit about that. The exciting thing is to be part of that current of thoughts and to feed that current with fresh ideas and syntheses in order to further the establishment of wholistic paradigms. I didn't mention Western Hermetic teachings but these are playing an important role too, I think, judging the many organizations that promulgate these teachings. Paul>I don't defend the rhetoric Alexis has used in carrying on this discussion, or his speculation about HPB's books being rewritten by others. But his essential observation is correct, I think. HPB never intended that "core teachings" be used as a weapon whereby orthodox Theosophists make eclectic theosophists feel unwelcome in the movement she founded. And it has happened, not just in the Judge wing of the movement but now increasingly in the Adyar TS as well. Lately hardly an AT issue goes by without some message to that effect. Well, I think Theosophical organizations have become too crystalized in the past. Although they have something valuable to offer to others, it could be much better. I think that there is a fear of tampering with the teachings. I understand that fear, but it may not be an excuse for omission of further research and investigation into the many fields (which not..) that pertain to Theosophy. To be frank, I 'd say that there's a need for very experienced people (on all sorts of fields of knowledge) who can give an impulse to the further development of Theosophy. But who will take up that challenge? Oh, this post has become way too long, and I'm still a bit on a holiday regarding this list (couldn't resist responding to your post:)) Martin From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 16 20:34:47 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 16:34:47 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607162034.QAA10583@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Shocking statistic I was just exploring WorldCat for a work-related purpose, and while I was there started looking at other things. For the purposes of my Cayce book, some time ago I searched to find out how many books had ever been produced on the subject of Edgar Cayce, compared to other founders of American-born new religious movements. Here are some numbers: Joseph Smith, Jr. 1125 Ellen G. White (Adventists) 686 Edgar Cayce 646 Mary Baker Eddy 601 HPB 341 Today I decided to look up some successors to HPB in Theosophical and derivative groups, and here's where the shock came: J. Krishnamurti 297 Annie Besant 180 Alice Bailey 87 Elizabeth C. Prophet 18 CW Leadbeater 8 and: RUDOLF STEINER 1210!! Some caveats: this database counts multiple editions and translations of the same book as separate. At 30 million records plus, it is the closest thing we have to "all books ever written" but still is biased towards English language materials. But despite the inexactitude, it is still a fascinating discovery to me: Steiner has generated more studies than Joseph Smith, twice as many as Cayce, Eddy, or White and eight times as many as his expeller Mrs. Besant. More than a dozen times as many as Bailey, who I always put in the same league with him, four times as many as Krishnamurti, and more than three times as many as HPB. Can anyone offer a hint to explain this (to me anyhow) quite unexpected fact? From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Tue Jul 16 21:58:09 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:58:09 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607162158.AA22114@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: Re: Historic Jesus >Jerry Ekins said >>As you get deeper into HPB, you will find that her ideas >>concerning Jesus are quite radical from a Christian point of >>view. In ISIS UNVEILED, she makes a distinction between the >>biblical, the theological, and the historical Jesus. Unless, >>you keep this in mind, it is very easy to become confused as to >>which Jesus she is talking about. HPB's historical Jesus lived >>about 100 years earlier than the Biblical Jesus, and did not >>know Pilate or John the Baptist. Her biblical Jesus is built >>from traditions and revelations of early Christian communities >>not contemporary to Jesus. Abrantes: >HPB only refers to Sepher Toldoth. What more revelations of early Christian communities not contemporary to >Jesus> ? JHE Yes, she cites and discusses the SEPHER TOLDOTH, but that is not her only reference. From Jewish sources HPB also draws from the TALMUD--some of which is supposed to have been drawn from records that were contemporary with Jesus. From Christian Sources, she draws from the Bible and from the writings of the Ante Nicene Fathers. From Greek and Gnostic sources, she draws from a variety of material extant at that time, including the PISTIS SOPHIA. The "traditions and revelations of early Christian communities not contemporary to Jesus" would include the Gospels- -none of which the biblical scholars have been able to show to have been written within the lifetime of the Biblical Jesus' disciples. There was probably an earlier document from which the Gospels were drawn, but it is now lost, and its possible content is a matter of lively speculation at the moment. The letters of Paul make up the oldest documents in the New Testament, but Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. Also, Paul's account of Jesus is quite different from the Gospels. For instance, Pilot is never mentioned. Abrantes >I could identify only this reference in Unveiled Isis. But even >the historical Jesus at Sepher Toldoth is little consistent when >compared with anothers historical documents. Sepher Toldoth >says about maccabee reign of Jannaeus, that reigned during 104bc >to 78bc, member of the hasmonean family of jewish leaders and >rulers comprising the sons of Mattathias and their descendants >that reigning in Judea from 167bc to 37bc. JHE Yes, the Jewish account is very inconsistent with the Christian. Did you expect it to be otherwise? Abrantes: >Gibbon at Decline and fall of Roman Empire Vol I, p212 reproduce >Annals XV,44 of Tacitus that says: "with this view, he (Nero) >inflicts the most exquisite tortures on those men, who under >vulgar appellation of christians, were already branded with >deserved infamy. They derived their name and origin from Christ, >who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by sentence of >the procurator Pontius Pilate". Gibbon page 729 concludes: "this >testimony is alone sufficient to expose the anachronism of the >jews who place the birth of Christ near a century sooner >(Basnage Histoire des Jufs 1.v.c.14,15). JHE If you begin with the premise that the Gospels are historically accurate, then you will have to assume that any conflicting accounts, including the Jewish, are wrong. HPB does not assume the Gospels to be accurate history, therefore she is free to consider upon equal ground accounts from non Christian sources. Abrantes: >the authenticity of Sepher Toldoth is also uncertain, because it >"did not appear before the thirteen century" JHE HPB was aware of the date of the extant Toldoth mss. She was also aware that the Christians had been raiding and burning Jewish manuscripts for centuries, so it is a miracle that we even have a thirteenth century specimen of this work. Abrantes: >The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the >hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth >is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex >apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an >adulterous, union of His parents (Origin, "Contra Cels.," I, 28, >32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara >"Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath"', xii, cf. Eisenmenger, >"Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", >II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, >"Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). JHE Whether or not the Jewish literature is "hostile" does not prove the information to be false. It still may have been based upon first century Temple records salvaged from the destruction--as the ancient Rabbis claimed. Abrantes: >The last work in its final edition did not appear before the >thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in >its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth >did not begin before the end of the first century. JHE Which would have been at the time of the destruction of the Temple. Therefore Rosch's opinion would be consistant with the Rabbi's claims. Whether it is a "myth" is Rosch's assumption. There are most probably ample mythological elements within the story, but that does not mean that the TOLDOTH is a lie, or that it was fabricated from someones imagination. As we learned with Homer's ILIAD, even a "myth" can be based upon very real events and places. Abrantes: >at http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers at file ECF04.TXT >Origin, "Contra Cels.," I, 28 And since, in imitation of a >rhetorician training a pupil, he introduces a Jew, who enters >into a personal discussion with Jesus, and speaks in a very >childish manner, altogether unworthy of the grey hairs of a >philosopher, let me endeavor, to the best of my ability, to >examine his statements, and show that he does not maintain, >throughout the discussion, the consistency due to the character >of a Jew...." [snip] > >Now, as I cannot allow anything said by unbelievers to remain >unexamined, but must investigate everything from the beginning, >I give it as my opinion that all these things worthily harmonize >with the predictions that Jesus is the Son of God. >Abrantes JHE Regarding the above quotation coming from CONTRA CELSUS, I do not see how it relates to this discussion concerning the TOLDOTH and HPB's sources. Yes, Origin more or less affirms the Jesus which Christians believe. However, Origins' beliefs conterning Jesus are of interest because he lived at a time early in the Christian movement, therefore they tell us something of what Christians of his time believed. Much of what Origin says is consistant with todays' Christianity, and much is not. But even Origin lived after the time of the Jewish or the Christian Jesus. The plain and sad fact is, we have no first hand accounts of Jesus. We have only stories recorded in the Gospels, conflicting Gospels that were thrown out, and conflicting Jewish and Gnostic accounts many of which date to the same period as the Gospels of the Bible. Please keep in mind that the purpose of HPB's writings was to get people to look more broadly and open mindedly at non-Christian religion, philosophy and culture as well as to look at Christianity in a more open minded way. If your guide to judging the validity of HPB's ideas rests upon whether or not they conflict with Christian ideas, then I suggest that your reading of ISIS UNVEILED is a waste of time and you have missed the point of the book. Jerry ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From blafoun@azstarnet.com Tue Jul 16 23:53:24 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:53:24 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607162353.QAA16152@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: ANNOUNCING A NEW BOOK ON REINCARNATION BY PAUL EDWARDS ANNOUNCING THE PUBLICATION OF A NEW BOOK ON REINCARNATION: I have been waiting almost 9 years for the publication of this book! I quote from the dustjacket of the book and then add my two cents worth. See below. Daniel H. Caldwell *********************************************************************** R E I N C A R N A T I O N: A Critical Examination by Paul Edwards Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 1996. 313 pp. Cloth, $28.95 *********************************************************************** How to order: From your local bookstore or call toll free & order on your credit card: 1-800-421-0351 (Prometheus Books) ********************************************************************** "In this book....[Paul Edwards] aims his razor-sharp intellect at the delusions of yet another myth: reincarnation. The book is extremely comprehensive: all major arguments for reincarnation are refuted...." Adolf Grunbaum Andrew W. Mellon Professor of Philosophy University of Pittsburgh ________________________________________________________ "Paul Edwards bring his usual incisiveness, clarity, and wit to bear on ancient beliefs that underlie much of the fuzzy thinking of the New Age movement. He deftly exposes the philosophical and practical deficiencies of the concept of Karma and provides a trenchant critique of the evidence in favor of reincarnation." Barry L. Beyerstein Brain-Behavior Laboratory Simon Fraser University _________________________________________________________ "This book is the first comprehensive and systematic evaluation of reincarnation and Karma in any language. Several chapters are devoted to the alleged evidence for reincarnation---child prodigies, deja vu experiences, hypnotic regressions, and the reincarnation memories of a number of children, but also some adults, especially in India and in other countries where belief in reincarnation is widespread. One chapter discusses the so-called Law of Karma showing that it is no law at all, offering only *post hoc* explanations." "There are both empirical and conceptual objections to reincarnation. The theory is shown to be inconsistent with the population increases on the earth, the relative recency of life in the universe, and various features of evolutionary history. Reincarnationists are also faced with the problem of giving a coherent account of the identity of a person who is said to be the same in two different lives. Equally seriously, they cannot offer a credible description of how the mind could make its transition from a dead body into the womb of the mother of its next incarnation. They have to resort to the fantastic theory of an 'astral body' or 'spiritual' body. Furthermore, we have enormous evidence that the mind or consciousness cannot exist without the brain. The brain-mind-dependence facts undermine most forms of survival including reincarnation. " "In addition to reincarnation and Karma, the book discusses in some detail the claims of the leading figures in the new immortality movement, which arose in the United States in the mid-1970s. The writers targeted in this connection are Elisabeth Kubler-Ross; Raymond Moody, the author of the best-selling *Life After Life*, and Dr. Stanislov Grof, who bases his belief on the experiences of patients during LSD sessions." Quoted from the dustjacket of Dr. Edwards' book. ______________________________________________________ Paul Edwards (1923-- ) is the author of *The Logic of Moral Discourse,* *Heidegger and Death* and numerous articles in philosophical journals. He is the editor of *The Encyclopedia of Philosophy,* *Voltaire,* and *Immortality." He has contributed to numerous reference works including *The Encyclopedia of Unbelief," *The Encyclopedia of Ethics," and most recently, *The Oxford Companion to Philosophy." In 1979, Columbia University awarded him the Nicholas Murray Butler Silver Medal for distinguished contributions to philosophy. He currently teaches at the New School for Social Research in New York City. Quoted from the dustjacket of Dr. Edwards' book. ______________________________________________________ MY TWO CENTS WORTH There are 17 chapters in this thought provoking book. One of my favorites is entitled: "The Dependence of Consciousness on the Brain." In Chapter 16 on "More about Dr. Ian Stevenson, the 'Galileo of Reincarnation', " Dr. Edwards writes the following: "Ian Wilson [in his book] ends his highly critical chapter of Stevenson with the remark that in spite of all objections he has raised, 'Stevenson may yet prove himself the Galileo of reincarnation.' I do not see any danger of that. What is unfortunately very likely is that for a long time to come ignorant and superstitious people all over the world will continue to refer to Stevenson as the man who has provided strong scientific evidence, if not indeed conclusive proof, of reincarnation." (p. 277) Students of Blavatsky, Theosophy, the New Age, various esoteric disciplines, parapsychology, religion, philosophy, etc. should read this book. Here is a healthy dose of scepticism and commonsense. You may not always agree with what Dr. Edwards writes, but his work makes for interesting reading. Food for thought! Daniel H. Caldwell The Blavatsky Foundation From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Wed Jul 17 01:29:43 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:29:43 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Events at the end of the century (A. Bailey predictions) In-Reply-To: <199607161349.NAA03094@pipe3.h1.usa.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 aprioripa@pipeline.com wrote: > > Some recent posts have mentioned A. Bailey's predictions as to events > during these times, here's a compilation we put together and a meditation: > > - Angels will increasingly go about the task helping and advising human > beings and will do so in a much more open way than has been done in recent > centuries. > Did not know Bailey said this ... but more than one of `em I've worked with seems to have had this intention. -JRC From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 16 16:27:08 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:27:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Core teachings In-Reply-To: <31EAE48D.7D9D@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <31EAE48D.7D9D@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >About a year ago I got tired of having to accept other >people's evaluation of the core teachings and so got into GdeP in the hope >that after reading him I might tackle the SD and get somewhere. I am enjoying >GdeP ver much and my view of my world and the universe has expanded and range >over millions of years. The impact on my own life has been to give the ego a >shake up and to see that my little self is very necessary yet not a big deal >in the scheme of things. Hi, Bee, For what it's worth my 2 cents' worth of encouragement says the same thing, and from the 19th century theosophical source materials I have been led to a similar wider perception of things than ever I did or could have before. > I have learned the reasons for the moral and ethical >teachings in the various systems that before seemed a good way to regulate >social relations but now I can see deeper into the whys of some of these >things. To practice them in my life is easier once I see the rationale for >doing so and not just because everyone recommends such behaviour for >spiritual growth. I have developed a fascination for the anthropogenesis of >the SD through GdeP and so I am reading him, Barborka and the SD. I nenver ead GdeP, and I have some Barborka awaiting time on my shelf, but I *have* read most of the SD, all of ISIS and much more (boast, boast) and I am glad to have done so. > >Now where, oh where is there a place where I might discuss these ideas and so >understand them better? By the looks of it, nowhere. It seems that discussion on the lists leads mostly to arguments about whose view is "best" - which does no one much good, although sometimes I have found a small this or that to think about among the verbiage. >Once I have grasped a asprct to my satisfaction I move my enthusiasm to >another so I have no idea where my quest will go next. It seems that neither >of the lists want to discuss the deeper aspects of the core teachings. How true this has been for me as well. I doubt if you will get too far trying to engage in *general* discussion on any theos list, and yet I found echoes of my past in *this* post of *yours* - so it must have done me some good! :-) I suggest you might get a better in depth discussion field (so to speak) by talking to individual people you meet here individually via private posts to their e-mail addresses, and you get on with them well enough to make useful conversation and dialogue. I for one would be pleased to talk with you in this way, Sincerely, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 17 02:23:03 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:23:03 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Historic Jesus In-Reply-To: <9607162158.AA22114@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607162158.AA22114@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes (to ABRANTES) >If your guide to judging >the validity of HPB's ideas rests upon whether or not they >conflict with Christian ideas, then I suggest that your reading >of ISIS UNVEILED is a waste of time and you have missed the point >of the book. > >Jerry I must agree strongly with Jerry here. Although HPB was not fond of the Church(es) she did not write ISIS simply in order to attack Christianity, but to paint a much broader canvas, and to persuade people to think seriously about a great many things. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 17 03:39:35 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:39:35 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960716233934_239365625@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Birth Warning After convention is over, a bunch of us are going to dress up like American Indians and throw the akashic records into Boston Harbor. NO REINCARNATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! Chuck the Heretic From blafoun@azstarnet.com Tue Jul 16 23:53:24 1996 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:53:24 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607162353.QAA16152@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: ANNOUNCING A NEW BOOK ON REINCARNATION BY PAUL EDWARDS ANNOUNCING THE PUBLICATION OF A NEW BOOK ON REINCARNATION: I have been waiting almost 9 years for the publication of this book! I quote from the dustjacket of the book and then add my two cents worth. See below. Daniel H. Caldwell *********************************************************************** R E I N C A R N A T I O N: A Critical Examination by Paul Edwards Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 1996. 313 pp. Cloth, $28.95 *********************************************************************** How to order: From your local bookstore or call toll free & order on your credit card: 1-800-421-0351 (Prometheus Books) ********************************************************************** "In this book....[Paul Edwards] aims his razor-sharp intellect at the delusions of yet another myth: reincarnation. The book is extremely comprehensive: all major arguments for reincarnation are refuted...." Adolf Grunbaum Andrew W. Mellon Professor of Philosophy University of Pittsburgh ________________________________________________________ "Paul Edwards bring his usual incisiveness, clarity, and wit to bear on ancient beliefs that underlie much of the fuzzy thinking of the New Age movement. He deftly exposes the philosophical and practical deficiencies of the concept of Karma and provides a trenchant critique of the evidence in favor of reincarnation." Barry L. Beyerstein Brain-Behavior Laboratory Simon Fraser University _________________________________________________________ "This book is the first comprehensive and systematic evaluation of reincarnation and Karma in any language. Several chapters are devoted to the alleged evidence for reincarnation---child prodigies, deja vu experiences, hypnotic regressions, and the reincarnation memories of a number of children, but also some adults, especially in India and in other countries where belief in reincarnation is widespread. One chapter discusses the so-called Law of Karma showing that it is no law at all, offering only *post hoc* explanations." "There are both empirical and conceptual objections to reincarnation. The theory is shown to be inconsistent with the population increases on the earth, the relative recency of life in the universe, and various features of evolutionary history. Reincarnationists are also faced with the problem of giving a coherent account of the identity of a person who is said to be the same in two different lives. Equally seriously, they cannot offer a credible description of how the mind could make its transition from a dead body into the womb of the mother of its next incarnation. They have to resort to the fantastic theory of an 'astral body' or 'spiritual' body. Furthermore, we have enormous evidence that the mind or consciousness cannot exist without the brain. The brain-mind-dependence facts undermine most forms of survival including reincarnation. " "In addition to reincarnation and Karma, the book discusses in some detail the claims of the leading figures in the new immortality movement, which arose in the United States in the mid-1970s. The writers targeted in this connection are Elisabeth Kubler-Ross; Raymond Moody, the author of the best-selling *Life After Life*, and Dr. Stanislov Grof, who bases his belief on the experiences of patients during LSD sessions." Quoted from the dustjacket of Dr. Edwards' book. ______________________________________________________ Paul Edwards (1923-- ) is the author of *The Logic of Moral Discourse,* *Heidegger and Death* and numerous articles in philosophical journals. He is the editor of *The Encyclopedia of Philosophy,* *Voltaire,* and *Immortality." He has contributed to numerous reference works including *The Encyclopedia of Unbelief," *The Encyclopedia of Ethics," and most recently, *The Oxford Companion to Philosophy." In 1979, Columbia University awarded him the Nicholas Murray Butler Silver Medal for distinguished contributions to philosophy. He currently teaches at the New School for Social Research in New York City. Quoted from the dustjacket of Dr. Edwards' book. ______________________________________________________ MY TWO CENTS WORTH There are 17 chapters in this thought provoking book. One of my favorites is entitled: "The Dependence of Consciousness on the Brain." In Chapter 16 on "More about Dr. Ian Stevenson, the 'Galileo of Reincarnation', " Dr. Edwards writes the following: "Ian Wilson [in his book] ends his highly critical chapter of Stevenson with the remark that in spite of all objections he has raised, 'Stevenson may yet prove himself the Galileo of reincarnation.' I do not see any danger of that. What is unfortunately very likely is that for a long time to come ignorant and superstitious people all over the world will continue to refer to Stevenson as the man who has provided strong scientific evidence, if not indeed conclusive proof, of reincarnation." (p. 277) Students of Blavatsky, Theosophy, the New Age, various esoteric disciplines, parapsychology, religion, philosophy, etc. should read this book. Here is a healthy dose of scepticism and commonsense. You may not always agree with what Dr. Edwards writes, but his work makes for interesting reading. Food for thought! Daniel H. Caldwell The Blavatsky Foundation From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 17 04:20:53 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:20:53 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EC6A24.C5D@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Core Teachings References: <01BB7314.215B6AC0@x.dko.global-one.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Poulsen wrote: > > Bee: > >I don't see the problem as core versus others. When I first got on to the > >list I too was guilty of crying BORING when Eldon and some others > >discussed hard things but after a bit I realised that there should be a > place >for everyone here without getting hassled for 'wrong thinking'. That > is why I >got into strife with Alexis because I think we should at least > respect each >other and each others views. Over time many views change and > what we >think today may not be what we think next year. > > Dear Bee, > > you may appreciate to know that this very concept of common "core > teachings" is something of a blow in the face to some of us. "The problem > of core versus others" is inherent in the idea itself - the idea is > positively dangerous. Its expounders seems to add various favorite writers > according to personal whim to this grouping but still fails to see the > self-contradictiory in this barrier-building work. > Every day the idea seems to be catching on, probably because it is not > refuted - except by the heroic last stand of Richard. Even KPJ seems to > have caught on to this idea of a core framework where authors can be inside > or outside according to the spiritual insight of the listmaker. I understand that the Theosophy 'Society' may feel it necessary to deem certain literature as 'core' as a way of preserving it because that is its rationale for being in existence. A 100 years is not so long, in the scheme of things. Some people are interested in this literature and some not and that is the way of the world. We all tend to get enthusiastic about our own ideas and concepts and perhaps give the impression of exclusivity when it is only enthusiasm running away with our thoughts. I hide my head in shame when I think of the times I have been holding forth and suddenly realised the glazed look in the eyes opposite and then I know it is time to shut up. To that person I am probably such a bore when really I am not, when I am off my hobby-horse. > As a thought experiment along this line let us pronounce the SD the only > acceptable "core teaching" for true Theosophists. Then we will have as our > biblical main-source a work which try to synthesize the maximum amount of > other works. Can you see the irony in it? Or perhaps these thousands of > works would be "core works" as well? Then I would have to state my opinion > that the real essential works - the works containing the ideas translated > and adressed in the SD - remain largely unquoted. Before attempting to > demonstrate such an proposition I would probably have removed myself from > the very small core theosophistical enclosure, and there would be no need > for me to continue. Sorry but to me books are books. Either of interest or not. Either useful to me on my quest or not. There is a Theosophical essence, for want of a better word, and there is theosophy as a stream of knowledge that gets dammed up periodically and turned into a definite teaching by someone who seems to catch the essence of some part of the stream. History seems to say that this teaching rather quickly gets turned into dogma and the essence is lost. That still hasn't stopped 'keen' inquirers from working their way through the dogma in the attempt to find what gave rise to the dogma in the first place. Perhaps future Theosophists will burrow through to the SD just to see how the Theosophical idea started. Our librarian feels that TS will become a custodian of the literature and a reference point only, in the future. I am not sure how I feel about that. > PS. Just to clarify, Bee, the core idea itself is far older in theosophy > than our discussions here - and in fact is common to all religions. Even > the original arhats themselves sat down themselves after the death of the > Buddha to renumerate essential ideas. Very interestingly they started with > something they called "the immutable"... > BTW, I do not think there is an "easy-to-read" short-cut to spiritual > knowledge.I don't either but I learned that from experience. The easy to read interpretations of the deeper spiritual knowledge is less off-putting at the beginning stage but become unsatisfying after a while. > > In friendship, > > KimNice to talk to you again. Bee From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 17 05:30:05 1996 Date: 17 Jul 96 01:30:05 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE IN ASCII Message-Id: <960717053005_74024.3352_BHT124-2@CompuServe.COM> I just got a message from Elizabeth Trumpler from Olcott library that they do not have VOICE in ascii format. She thought that Eldon Tucker may have scanned it. Does any one have a scanner? Really good idea. Things are busy at summer school she said. Eldon may be there! Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 17 05:22:37 1996 Date: 17 Jul 96 01:22:37 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: STUDY GROUP ON THEOS-ROOTS Message-Id: <960717052237_74024.3352_BHT124-1@CompuServe.COM> From what people have posted, it would seem there is more interest in VOICE OF THE SILENCE because it is Blavatsky and it is less controversial as to its origin etc. I have misplaced my copy. I have requested from Elizabeth Trumpler as to the availability of an electronic ascii type file for uploading. We could take turns typing small portions as we discuss. So maybe the feeling is right for VOICE , though I would prefer ATFM because it is very short and direct, but maybe VOICE is too. I would definetly benefit from a reexposure to VOICE as I remember the GOLDEN STAIRS of virtues. I will try to get something going on roots by this weekend or if someone wants to post a few pages, feel free. John Mead said roots is best. I remember when we tried to study the MAHATAMA LETTERS and it was rather unmanageable and frustrating for me to keep up with all the historical details and personalities. . I thought a shorter work would be good for those newly interested to theosophy as well as those with historical expertise. Comments please! Namaste Keith Price From ramadoss@eden.com Wed Jul 17 06:54:19 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 01:54:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: STUDY GROUP ON THEOS-ROOTS In-Reply-To: <960717052237_74024.3352_BHT124-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Keith: Go ahead with Voice on theos-roots. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 17 07:14:07 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:14:07 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EC92BF.29E@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: STUDY GROUP ON THEOS-ROOTS References: <960717052237_74024.3352_BHT124-1@CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Price wrote: > >From what people have posted, it would seem there is more interest in VOICE OF > THE SILENCE because it is Blavatsky and it is less controversial as to its > origin etc. I have misplaced my copy. I have requested from Elizabeth Trumpler > as to the availability of an electronic ascii type file for uploading. We could > take turns typing small portions as we discuss. So maybe the feeling is right > for VOICE , though I would prefer ATFM because it is very short and direct, but > maybe VOICE is too. I would definetly benefit from a reexposure to VOICE as I > remember the GOLDEN STAIRS of virtues. I will try to get something going on > roots by this weekend or if someone wants to post a few pages, feel free. John > Mead said roots is best. I remember when we tried to study the MAHATAMA LETTERS > and it was rather unmanageable and frustrating for me to keep up with all the > historical details and personalities. . I thought a shorter work would be good > for those newly interested to theosophy as well as those with historical > expertise. > > Comments please! > > Namaste > Keith PriceI don't mind typing in some of it when required. I don't work so I have the time and don't forget that while you are all asleep over there, we are up and at 'em down her Bee. From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 17 07:20:32 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:20:32 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EC9440.5B90@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Core teachings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > Hi, Bee, > > > > I suggest you might get a better in depth discussion field (so to speak) > by talking to individual people you meet here individually via private > posts to their e-mail addresses, and you get on with them well enough to > make useful conversation and dialogue. I for one would be pleased to > talk with you in this way, > > Sincerely, > > Alan > --------- > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age > TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html > (Note figure "one" after WWW) Many thanks. I will remember that and it is not as if I want to talk about it incessantly but there are times that something is puzzling or even a buzz and to have a wall to bounce it off would be really nice. Bee From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 17 07:51:16 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:51:16 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EC9B74.7141@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Core teachings References: <199607161632.MAA01248@leo.vsla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > According to Bee Brown: > > > > I must have missed something as I cannot remember getting such a message. > > Just yesterday in one case, and a couple of days before in the > other. But in general-- I'm as guilty of this as anyone-- we > tend not to be sensitive to disparaging remarks made against > "them" as we are to those against "us." Maybe we have all just > been through some wonderful sensitivity training, though. I don't have 'them' and 'us' in my world if I can help it. I find that I have better control of my emotional body and less buttons that can be pushed if I arrange my reality as far as possible to acknowledge the best in people initially and if that fails, I try to be understanding which doesn't always work but at least I am trying. > > > enlightenment from what ever suits them. Yet I understand that HPB was the disseminater of the age old wisdom into this era, restating what has always >been known from time immemorial. It seems sensible to some to get their facts> > from the horse's mouth, so to speak rather than someone elses' interpretation> > of HPB. > > I agree with you on all but the definite articles. To say that > HPB was *a* disseminator of *some* age old wisdom is > indisputably correct. *The* disseminator of *the* wisdom > smacks of exclusivism and is also historically inaccurate-- > there are many disseminators and many wisdoms. HPB may be > one's favorite, but there is a "cloud of witnesses." You are quite right. That was mis-statement and I stand corrected. >snip > Has anyone recommended to you the correspondence study program > that TS-Pasadena operates by email? I don't know the details, > but the address is Theoscorr@aol.com and Nancy Coker is one of > the Pasadena HQ people involved. As best I recall Nancy does > not have interest in SD anthropogenesis but Pasadena is probably > the world's largest collection of people who do. Maybe someone > there could be helpful. Thank you. It may be worth an enquiry to see what is on offer. > > > I don't see the problem as core versus others. When I first got on to the > > list I too was guilty of crying BORING when Eldon and some others discussed > > hard things but after a bit I realised that there should be a place for > > everyone here without getting hassled for 'wrong thinking'. That is why I got > > into strife with Alexis because I think we should at least respect each other > > and each others views. Over time many views change and what we think today > > may not be what we think next year. > > Or even tomorrow! Well said, sister. > > Cheers > PJDitto Bee From jmeier@microfone.net Wed Jul 17 07:00:44 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:00:44 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607171100.AA16556@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Events/predictions (apriori) Patrick, >Some recent posts have mentioned A. Bailey's predictions as to events >during these times, here's a compilation we put together and a meditation: I'm not aware of any such recent posts; did my reader have a glitch, or are you referring to something other than theos-l? Regards, Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 17 11:47:10 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:47:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960717074710_436014931@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Events at the end of the century (A. Bailey predictions) Not to be my usual parade rainer, but as the end of the century is a very few years away, this stuff is not the way to bet. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 17 11:47:58 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:47:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960717074756_436015219@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: summer school day 2 This is getting embarrassing! Here I was, looking forward to telling of scandal and disaster and nothing of the sort is happening! Joy continues in fine form, Dick Brooks is giving a great series on post death experience and Doss McDavid may have found the real key to the Secret Doctrine in Gematria, of all things. Then the Gods of Music sent an angel to play the piano for us. To make matters worse, no one has gotten sick from either the water or the food! I'm getting bored! Wish you all could be there with us. Chuck the Heretic From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 17 13:38:34 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 9:38:34 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607171338.JAA17645@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Core Teachings In-Reply-To: <01BB7314.215B6AC0@x.dko.global-one.dk>; from "Kim Poulsen" at Jul 16, 96 8:37 pm According to Kim Poulsen: > Every day the idea seems to be catching on, probably because it is not > refuted - except by the heroic last stand of Richard. Even KPJ seems to > have caught on to this idea of a core framework where authors can be inside > or outside according to the spiritual insight of the listmaker. Yikes! I see where you get this idea, but let me clarify or recant. There is no way around acknowledging the fact that some texts are more widely accepted among Theosophists than others. That's DESCRIPTIVE, and "core teachings" in the descriptive sense are no problem for me. You can find out which teachings are "core" by administering a questionnaire to a representative sample of Theosophists, in that sense. But I disagree heartily with the spirit of NORMATIVE "core teachings" in the exclusivistic sense we see in evidence so often. That is, "other Theosophists ought to have the same priorities I/we do." To hell with that! If Keith's study group enjoys At the Feet of the Master, great. I just think that the Voice would be more suitable for study by the range of folks we have here on theos-l, since CWL is such a hot potato. And there's a personal factor at work, which I hope I made clear: *for me* the Voice has been a very potent factor in my spiritual life, and one I have never had the opportunity of discussing with anyone. Whereas AFM is a definite "thunk" rather than "ding" in terms of my own resonance to it. But that's just one person, and if the majority prefers AFM, go for it. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 17 14:06:04 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 10:06:04 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607171406.KAA25636@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: HPB vs. Theosophical orthodoxy HPB's "Original Programme" manuscript lays out very clearly where she, Olcott, and their teachers stand on the issue of orthodoxy in the Theosophical movement. This addresses the popular trend toward normative "core teachings." ----------------------------------------------------------- ..if the two Founders were not told *what they had to do,* they were distinctly instructed about *what they never should do,* what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organizations, Christian and spiritual sects were show as the future contrasts to our Society. To make it clearer:-- (1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence *to oppose selfishness of any kind,* by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Members-- at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each other's shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domain-- moral or physical-- and even, in daily life. (2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching *dogmatic faith and fanaticism*-- belief in the *infallibility* of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticizing the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)-- such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged. (BCW VII: 146-48) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Contemporary Theosophy as a movement stands condemned by these passages, I fear, at least in large part. My own experience suggests that the majority of individual Theosophists *are* tolerant of others' ideas, helpful, encouraging of free research, and so on. But the organizations and their leaders are much less so. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One last line, I think, is especially relevant to the "us-them" antagonism that has developed between Theosophists with different levels of orthodoxy: "The Theosophical body is neither a Church nor a Sect and every individual opinion is entitled to a hearing. A Theosophist may progress and develop, and his views may outgrow those of the Founders, grow larger and broader in every direction, without for all that abandoning the fundamental soil upon which they were born and nurtured."(p. 171) From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 17 14:30:52 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 10:30:52 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607171430.KAA00935@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Core teachings (to Paul), long post In-Reply-To: <199607162033.WAA22128@mail.euronet.nl>; from "Martin_Euser" at Jul 16, 96 8:44 pm According to Martin_Euser: > > Pondering about this eclecticism, I see no reason why the effort > of synthesis should not be extended to present day philosophies, > scientific findings, etc. In practice, however, this > is not what has happened. The Quest and Sunrise have to some extent tried to do so. But there's a membrane between the Theosophy and the current ideas which is impermeable. The Quest authors who write about current thinking rarely if ever relate them to the Theosophical literature. The Sunrise articles tend to look for current developments which can be used to support Theosophical teachings, rather than engaging in any real comparison and analysis. Synthesis requires a yielding up of the authority of the thesis and antithesis; no TS is willing to yield an inch of ground and the ULT is even more firmly established in its existing conceptions. The total lack of any critique of Blavatskian anthropogenesis within the movement says a lot about the state of Theosophical ability to synthesize with current science and philosophy. If you can't say "maybe HPB was wrong about this to some extent" you can't synthesize very well. > It would be a challenge however, if T/theosophists would cooperate and > provide extensions to Theosophy and some new ways of looking at the > doctrines (which are basically working hypotheses, not dogmas). > Having provided a new way of looking at one of the core ones-- the Masters-- I could not in good conscience recommend to anyone else to follow a similar path unless they were willing to become a Theosophical punching bag. > without that you can forget about Theosophy. Empathy is > essential in bringing about the first object of the TSs!) > We do have a path that is terribly unbalanced between heart and head, IMO. That really came through when I saw how unselfconsciously hateful people could be over ideas on theos-l. Conscious thinking implies unconscious feeling in the Jungian system of four functions. Maturity in the movement requires integrating the shadow of all those submerged and denied feelings. What a task! > > The only issue that will probably never be fully resolved is the issue > of providing extensions to and/or reinterpretations and rephrasings > of teachings. TI members may give it a try :) To some extent my work on Cayce portrays him in the light of a successor to/extension of Theosophy. Am trying not to wonder how it will be received. Thanks, Martin for some timely and wise comments. Cheers Paul From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 17 22:02:33 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:02:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: VOICE IN ASCII In-Reply-To: <960717053005_74024.3352_BHT124-2@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960717053005_74024.3352_BHT124-2@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I just got a message from Elizabeth Trumpler from Olcott library that they do >not have VOICE in ascii format. She thought that Eldon Tucker may have scanned >it. Does any one have a scanner? Really good idea. Things are busy at summer >school she said. Eldon may be there! > >Namaste >Keith Price > Have scanner - no VOICE! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 17 22:07:32 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:07:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Teachings & Bouncings In-Reply-To: <31EC9440.5B90@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <31EC9440.5B90@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >Many thanks. I will remember that and it is not as if I want to talk about >it incessantly but there are times that something is puzzling or even a buzz >and to have a wall to bounce it off would be really nice. >Bee Bounce any time! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 17 22:00:24 1996 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:00:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Birth Warning In-Reply-To: <960716233934_239365625@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960716233934_239365625@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >After convention is over, a bunch of us are going to dress up like American >Indians and throw the akashic records into Boston Harbor. Clever! - that's quite a throw from Illinois ... > >NO REINCARNATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! > >Chuck the Heretic (The akashic records will appear as a multi-boxed set of CDs to coincide with the millenium - Akashic Library announcement) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 18 02:20:57 1996 Date: 17 Jul 96 22:20:57 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Summer School Day 2 Message-Id: <960718022056_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >Not to be my usual parade rainer, but as the end of the century is a very few >years away, this stuff is not the way to bet. We can dream, can't we? >This is getting embarrassing! Here I was, looking forward to telling of >scandal and disaster and nothing of the sort is happening! >. . . Then the Gods of Music sent an angel to play the piano for us. Maybe they've put something in those water coolers. - Ann E. Bermingham From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Jul 18 09:15:08 1996 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:15:08 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960718091508.00689544@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Availablility of the VOICE Keith: >From what people have posted, it would seem there is more interest in VOICE OF >THE SILENCE because it is Blavatsky and it is less controversial as to its >origin etc. I have misplaced my copy. I have requested from Elizabeth Trumpler >as to the availability of an electronic ascii type file for uploading. We could >take turns typing small portions as we discuss. I think there might be an electronic version of the VOICE available on the Internet. You might check out the site below. (The writeup is reprinted from the June 1996 THEOSOPHY WORLD.) ---- THE PARACELSIAN ORDER by John H. Drais The Paracelsian Order as a theosophical organization has an interest the "Truth". We know only too well that this truth can never be expressed, but at least we can do our part to keep our search for it on course. So much information was released by the early Theosophical Societies that even today it is not well digested. To make matters worse, the original flavoring has been altered by too many cooks in the kitchen. Almost all, if not all in fact, of the original writings have been "improved" by these later hands so finding what the original actually said is getting more difficult with each new publication. We have no dogmas to promote. We have no belief system we think is incumbent on anyone to believe. We appreciate all sincere attempts to display the truth, even if it is not done in our way, "the correct way", or imprinted with someone's stamp of "authority". We do not accept the word of authority, even that of the Masters, Blavatsky, Judge, or any of the worlds "revealed" sacred literature. We do respect the opinions of those whose life efforts demonstrate their sincere care for the "orphan humanity". We think, among others, Blavatsky and Judge demonstrated such a care. Our Home Page is now on-line and ready for review, even though it is still under construction. We have reproduced several articles, the first in a series, and certify them as ACCURATE REPUBLICATIONS OF THE ORIGINALS. We do not promiss they are free from errors, either ours or those present in the originals. We do want to be notified of any errors you may find in them, and we will publish notations to suggest corrections to the originals. Now on-line are: * The Voice of the Silence (HP Blavatsky) Original Edition of 1889. * "Culture of Concentration" (WQ Judge) The Path, 1888 & 1890. * "Pen-Names of William Quan Judge" (Fussell & Small) Eclectic Theosophist, 1981. * "The Paracelsian Order" (JH Drais) Theosophical History, 1991. * "Roots of Madre Grande" (JH Drais) The Philosopher's Stone, 1991. Viewing of these pages is best done with Netscape 2.01, but it should be nearly as good on any browser. Turn on-line images on. No large graphics, no frames, or other special features are used, since we found most of our viewers can not yet take advantage of them. If you like what you see (or if you don't like what you see) please email me and let me know. I will notify you of updates and additional publications as we proceed. If you have a link you want included on our page, please give us the address. You may link us to your pages as you wish. We do not yet have a counter, so your responses will be greatly appreciated. Try us as http://upanet.uleth.ca/~PARA/index.htm John H Drais, Abbot The Paracelsian Order 18372 Highway 94 Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA (619) 468-3512 From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 19 04:06:31 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:06:31 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960719000629_437368260@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: CC The general consensus seems to be that while his books are entertaining, they are not to be taken seriously. Chuck From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Fri Jul 19 03:44:13 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:44:13 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31EF048D.6A4E@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Olcott and Babe the pig References: <199607190232.TAA00485@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaman wrote: > > ...[chuck writes]... > > > >Tonight's entertainment was a thing by John about spiritual stuff in movies. > > >. . . He included . . . a movie about a talking pig. > > ..[and ann replies]... > > > > > That's no ordinary talking pig - that's Babe! I loved that film and highly > > recommend to anyone, no matter what their age. I thought it was positively > > inspired. > > ..[and bcs pipes in]... > > I likewise liked it...although the message was kind of -- well -- > Fulghumesque. > > *BUT* -- how about Powder and Phenomenon? Anyone see those movies > yet? I have seen Babe and loved it and also Powder. I went to see it with some friends who are not into otherworldy stuff and try to ignore my theosophical leanings. I could almost hear their brains working overtime with the ideas presented. Just the sort of thing needed. I think in the end they chose to see it as just another science fiction, to be enjoyed and forgotten. Bee > > bcs > -- -- > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > my dog thinks I am." > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > balto1@rtd.com From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 19 05:19:50 1996 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:19:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Olcott and Babe the pig In-Reply-To: <31EF048D.6A4E@whanganui.ac.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is it really worth pursuing this thread of discussion? Max On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Bee Brown wrote: > Shaman wrote: > > > > ...[chuck writes]... > > > > > >Tonight's entertainment was a thing by John about spiritual stuff in movies. > > > >. . . He included . . . a movie about a talking pig. > > > > ..[and ann replies]... > > > > > > > > That's no ordinary talking pig - that's Babe! I loved that film and highly > > > recommend to anyone, no matter what their age. I thought it was positively > > > inspired. > > > > ..[and bcs pipes in]... > > > > I likewise liked it...although the message was kind of -- well -- > > Fulghumesque. > > > > *BUT* -- how about Powder and Phenomenon? Anyone see those movies > > yet? > > I have seen Babe and loved it and also Powder. I went to see it with some > friends who are not into otherworldy stuff and try to ignore my theosophical > leanings. I could almost hear their brains working overtime with the ideas > presented. Just the sort of thing needed. I think in the end they chose to > see it as just another science fiction, to be enjoyed and forgotten. > Bee > > > > bcs > > -- -- > > Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person > > my dog thinks I am." > > e-mail: shaman@primenet.com > > balto1@rtd.com > > > From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 19 05:56:34 1996 Date: 19 Jul 96 01:56:34 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: DOWNLOADING VOICE of SILENCE Message-Id: <960719055634_74024.3352_BHT166-1@CompuServe.COM> Eldon relates that an electronic version of VOICE OF THE SILENCE by HPB is available for retireval from a web source. I cannot access the web as I do not currently have enough memory. If someone could please retrieve it and e-mail it to me, we could post sections as we talk about them in small fragments while some us get hardcopies. It would seem a worthwhile project to have some of the shorter works availabe in ASCII for distribution anyway. If I can't get the VOICE, I will type in the first section of AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER this weekend. Any help or advice or comments are appreciated as well as your participation on theos-roots. I think I should put more emphasis on applying some of the practical aspects of spirtituality in my everyday life and see what the results are. I know that emphasis is placed on purity and the virtues in both VOICE and AT THE FEET. The web address for download VOICE is: Try us as http://upanet.uleth.ca/~PARA/index.htm Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 19 06:48:06 1996 Date: 19 Jul 96 02:48:06 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Theosophy Renaissance - Incarnated Message-Id: <960719064805_74024.3352_BHT166-2@CompuServe.COM> Richard writes concerning attempts to refute reincarnation: sharp intellects" trying to refute theosophically based knowledge. We could, I suppose, try to argue in the manner of Boris de Zirkoff that theosophical doctrines can be shown to be valid because of "coherence of thought, logical interrelatedness, appeal to both reason and intuition, application in both great and small ways, and practical value in relation to others," etc. However, except for the ~intuition~, such an approach, in my opinion, is doomed. I concur with Keith that sooner or later we just have to flat-out state that theosophical teachings have to be approached in a theosophical manner--i.e., that transcendental, mystical, intuitive, or higher perceptive personal developments must be relied upon to produce some degree of inner certainty about the teachings. Keith: I think the word "doctrine" was well chosen for the SD. The SD represents a continuing evolution of the ancient wisdom as restated by HPB. She did not intend it to be a dogma, but perhaps more a hypothesis that could be experimented, tested, replicated in the experience of the reader, and practically used for advancement and growth of the individual and society. Ken Wilber is stating a great length in his works that their is concept of holarchy. Each succesive level from physical, to emotional, to mental and spiritual implies that the lower levels support the higher, but the higher levels are not contained in the lower but depend on them. Thus you cannot prove Buddhism by looking to sub-atomic physics exactly though there may be some very important analogies. You cannot get to the trans-rational unity from a rational, analytical, logical process - though these tools are the vary thing that show the futility of the attempt. At some point, one must adopt a practice and seek a spiritual teacher and give up stretching a wordy serpent that is eating its tail anyway. He has chosen Adi Da as his spiritual teacher which I found difficult to accept at first but if it works for him, so what? Adi Da had the idea of asking: "avoiding relationship?" constantly. The question is not "am I avoiding relationship?" because there is an attempt not to create a separate ego that is working on itself in the form of seeing itself as defective, separate and "other" apart from an a priori primal unity bliss which he calls the Bright. This is kind of the idea of the koan as used in Zen, to bypass the intellect, by bursting through to a higher level of unitive enlightenment which sees the material everyday reality as transparent to ultimate spirit. By avoiding relationship to the all, I sabotage my own freedom and happiness in the form of maintaining a neurotic ego defense that my local drives, ambitions and desires use to perpetuate their own frustration, because the ego can only want, it cannot just be full as it fears death from giving up its own dualisms. Thus theosophy and core teachings must be incarnated in our very being by daily experimentation and practice. I am only beginning this. Maybe others are talking about there long years of practice and the fruits they have gained thereby. Thus theosophy has a real value in its ability to transform the individual. Theosophy is not a historical movement or dependent on a person but is evolution of mind itself. Any attempt to frustrate the cosmic urge will be met with a new impetus at some point, by individuals eager to regain a willingness to evolve out of old "cores" into new "life". Krishnamurti perhaps too radically overturned the idea changers in the theosophical temples by declaring truth is a pathless land. His latter contributions seem somewhat shrill, abrasive and unloving in a peculiar sort of way, as if he were disappointed that the goal cannot be achieved from a cookbook sort of approach. Like some reformed hedonists, he seemed to focus on the problem of not doing "something old" rather than the solution of really doing something new, from my limited exposure. Ken Wilber too presents the problem in great detail, but seems to resort to portents of a coming world-something to justify the sound and fury. This is almost like the Christian mission of becoming like Christ until He returns. It is a sort of unfullfilled expectation - an anti-climax. How many have seen theosophy incarnated as opposed to discussed? What would it look like? Would it result in a kind of Eastern puritanism in Western clothes. This has been my experience tosome degree althought I am not sure I can do much better. Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 19 07:11:48 1996 Date: 19 Jul 96 03:11:48 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960719071148_74024.3352_BHT166-3@CompuServe.COM> > From: Keith Price, 74024,3352 > TO: all, >internet:theos-l@char.vnet.net > DATE: 7/13/96 3:51 PM RE: Copy of: Purity and theosophy I cannot find this in my digests. If it was sent before, I apologize, but I am changing it anyway. A LOT OF TALK ABOUT TOXINS: NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful are the deadliest toxins in our society because of their ubiquitous presence in thousands of foods, even children's vitamins, medicines, Kool Aid and Jell-O and on every restaurant table. We're dosed with millions of pounds every year! This warning should be on every Aspartame/NutraSweet(/Equal/Spoonful product: CHEMICAL POISON: KEEP OUT OF REACH OF HUMANS! GENOCIDAL! Keith: I would like to share some thoughts about the ideas associating purity and spirituality. We all know the supposedly Christian motto that "cleanliness is next to Godliness" (which, of course, is not in the Bibl)e but Leviticus focuses on the kosher aspects of being close to God regarding diet and other issues. I have notices that among theosphists at annual meetings etc there is always a few people who are obsessed with dietary issues beyond vegetarianism and go into veganism and even declaring that tomatoes are poison because they are a member of the deadly nightshade family (which is true). There seem to be an almost Virgoan preoccupation with purifying matter to make it more "spiritual", less "dirty". I am a Virgo and as a child loved to garden. I remember as a child of about six or so deciding that I was going to have a perfect garden by washing the dirt to make the dirt "clean" and "better". I, of course, wound up with sand! Sand is "clean" and "pure" but absolutely unfit to grow beautiful flowers in, which was my goal. By attempting to make it perfect and pure, I destoryed the life giving properties. Isn't out unconscious much the same as the earth. Our spirtual soil of consciousness is fecund with many strange and mysterious properties that enrich our life and allow spiritual growth far beyond any purity which ultimatly does not lead to sat-chit-ananda are blissfull oneness with the ALL/ONE but an EMPTINESS, a DEATH of both matter and spirit. Thus I again suggest a theme that "the thorn in the side" as with Paul and the "cup" spoken about by Jesus (take this cup away from me, if it be thy will, Father) are necessary prods and fertilizer for spiritual progess on our globe, in this round, ring and manvantara. Without the descent into matter, there can be no spiritual self-consciousness, no lessons of love and hate, pain and bliss, knowledge and ignorance. Thus one often hears that CWL is to be dismissed because he was " impure" in his suggestions to adolescent boys. HPB has been accused of all kind of things from being a total virgin to a spy, to a lesbian (which I have no idea what to believe so I leave it up to other like K Paul to keep digging). Of course, ethically speaking, we should stive for the most committed and upright spiritual relationships, but being spiritual beings on a material journey as BCS states, we are often forced to deal with past life issues as spiritual, behavioral and often sexual issues in the present incarnation. Thus almost everyone has issues great and small to work out in various hidden departments of life (the occult) and behind these negative manifestations lies the "hand of karma" every guiding us to lessons we really need even if we certainly don't want them such as poverty, mental illness, physical illness and even criminality. I wanted to make clear that my students are adults and I am not attracted to children nor suggest that this is allowable or acceptable. But when one thinks of CWL, I can only feel compassion for the suffering that was caused all around by his "exposure". However, that which is exposed is no longer occult, but can face karmic consequences openly instead of allowing them to build below the surface. Thus I would like to suggest that for me, homosexuality has taught me many hard lessons. Lessons that I would never choose for myself on a conscious level, but now believe as so glibly stated as choosing our lessons before we are born in consultation with our MASTERS which we all commune with after death, but only glimpse and catch snatches of converstations from , usually in dreams and meditations. Wholeness, not purity, is the goal. Perfection, it seems, cannot be achieved by the individual, but is taking place in the PROCESS. Called or uncalled the Gods (archetypal complexes expressed overtly and covertly) will be there. I know that Alice Bailey openly hated homosexuals (see her bio) and suggested that they had the most fearful karma to deal with. Of course, HPB et al came from the tradition that all sex was less than spiritual and that the goal was celibacy, as in the dietary abstention from meat. Maybe I am focusing on issues such as self denial, responsiblity in relationships, control of the vehicles which others simply take for granted because they have dealt with them in past lives or will deal with the in later lives. Socrates, if I remember, was asked to drink hemlock for misleading his students politically or emotionally. I have stated that this is an issue that I messed up somewhere and am now dealing with it. I have an unconscious block against linking with a spiritual leader, because I was mislead by one in a past life or was the selfish leader who sacrificed group goals for individual fullfillment. More on this later! Namaste Keith Price From saf@angel.elektra.ru Fri Jul 19 03:22:03 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:07:06 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607190708.AA09900@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Castaneda Hello Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > The general consensus seems to be that while his books are entertaining, > they are not to be taken seriously. May be. But I have one question. Did you read all books or part only? Uri From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 19 08:13:47 1996 Date: 19 Jul 96 04:13:47 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Blavatsky Bakti or Yoga of Transference Message-Id: <960719081347_74024.3352_BHT166-4@CompuServe.COM> For true spiritual transformation it is said there must be somekind of sacrifice of the worldly conditioned ego to a higher spiritual reality or at least a group goal for the simplest maturity. . This in most traditions takes the form of finding a spiritual teacher and linking with him or her on as many levels as possible. Christ is the answer for Christians who claim we should believe in Jesus, call on his name, trust him, love him and He will love you. The historical Jesus represents the focus of need to link with a teacher in a physical body at a certain stage on the path. The Gnostic Jesus seems more like an inner teacher and new age channeled guide from the Nag Hammadi Gospels and seems truly an archetype to hang a story on, as the critics of the Gnostics suggested. Buddha even has sentimental attachment for children in the East, like a Santa Claus. Freud and Jung have made much of the notion of "transference of lbido" to the analyst as almost a prerequisite for getting better. One must really trust a therapist and be in rapport for any deep change to take place. The yoga is with an advanced or more highly developed (hopefully) personality who will reparent the client. Most of my students don't care what I know unless they know that I care. Again a kind of trust is necessary for true spirtual relationships. I have always had difficulty in linking with Blavatsky as a lovable historical figure. She seems to have a lot of appeal to feminists who admire her for standing up to a the image of a patriarcal God and the male intellectual establishment of the time. I still find the Blavatsky-only crowd a little strange. She all but admitted that the SD is a compilation or "nosegay" (her word) culled from many gardens of spiritual sources, so to speack. Yet it does bear her stamp, definitely! Has anyone considered channeling Blavatsky? Does anyone meditate on her image? I think very few. And for me, her thought is as hard to pin down as her style is expansive. She points to the Masters as her Bakti, her linking to the Source. I look forward to rereading the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, because I remember that it is this VOICE that can be trusted above all others. A transference to a teacher or guru, is only a temporary projection of this omnipresent voice and must be withdrawn and reintegrated at various times in one's life from my experience. I have always sought the inner beloved, the Master within. Maybe this is the voice of the silence and the goal is to improve I conscious connection, yoking, bakti, by a willingness to know, to dare, to will and keep silent. What an order! Namaste Keith Price From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 19 06:40:08 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:40:08 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607191040.AA12634@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Keith Re: DOWNLOADING... Hi Keith -- I've sent section I to you by separate post. You don't have enought memory to access the Web? But you're on CompuServe -- are you not in Windows/WinCim? It used to be in Houston that Black Box bbs was the best at PPP accounts, but of course it's been a couple of years since I was there. Regarding the VOICE: you have access to the extensive library at the Houston TSA house though, right? SO -- how do we take this to theos-roots? Regards, Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 19 12:11:45 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:11:45 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960719081144_241116367@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Where are Atlantis and Lemuria?? Try the Secret Doctrine. :-) Actually, we have no real idea where Atlantis and Lemuria may have been, or if they really existed and were not just allegories. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 19 12:11:49 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:11:49 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960719081148_241116433@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: summer school day 3 Alan, He worries about me everytime I come on this list. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 19 12:12:37 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:12:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960719081236_241116587@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: summer school day 4 WE are all still alive and most of us are dry, or drying out. There were a number of flooded parking lots and basements in Wheaton, three of which were at Olcott. Elizabeth was up at an ungodly hour rescuing stored books from the hq basement and a couple of people had to be moved out of their quarters until things could dry out. You will be happy to know that Chuck and Gerda are fine and their house, being somewhat north of the heaviest rains, was bone dry. The expedition to the Frank Lloyd Wright stuff apparently went well. Gerda and I did not go as we have been through it ourselves before, but those who did go found it to be very interesting in spite of the sauna and the bus not showing up, necessitating a makeshift car pool to get the folks there. Then this evening--well, if you remember Tuesday the gods of music sent us an angel? Tonight the devils of music got their revenge and sent us an idiot. In addition to the fact that I have heard more talent in a local bar, the performer, who mercifully will remain nameless, was a former student of Bede (Don't I look so holy in my silly robe) Griffiths and apparently a follower of Matthew (Where is the Inquisition when we need it?) Fox. I could hear HP B shouting FLAPDOODLE! from the other side as he regaled us with the most self-righteous garbage ever to be heard in the hallowed halls of Olcott, and that takes some doing as they once let Bede Griffith into the place. So for those of you who have forgotten, let me remind you. The Masters do not approve of religion. They consider it the source of the bulk of the world's ills. Good Theosophists, or even bad ones like myself, do not, according to the Key to Theosophy, waste their time in prayer to non-existent personal deities. And if somebody needs our help we do not write a song about how they might feel. We get off our asses and help them. Chuck the Heretic From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 19 13:10:16 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 9:10:16 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607191310.JAA19100@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: "Anonymous" and the MLs In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960719070145.00680f4c@mail.imagiware.com>; from "Eldon B. Tucker" at Jul 18, 96 9:02 pm According to Eldon B. Tucker: > > If some passages in the SD were written by KH and M, and bear > their writing style, for instance, there would be a match. > Also we have to consider how the SD and other materials > were written. Is HPB writing everything *in her own words* > or picking up the wording of others, at times? A further problem. If you compared HPB's letter to Sinnett to the MLs to Sinnett, perhaps she was deliberately striving to make them sound different (which might not fool a computer anyhow.) Rather than the SD, Isis or the Voice, perhaps some Theosophist articles would make the best basis for comparison since there is the least indication of Mahatmic intervention in the literary process. > > Another interesting comparision would be Mahatma Letters to > other Mahatma Letters, depending upon where and how they > were received. If they were received at different locations, > could they have been "transmitted" using different Chelas, > and bear some signiture wording patters? > When in London I noticed that one letter had an annotation on the back, "received through Damodar." Don't know how many others that may be true of. It would also be interesting to compare the particular letter received by Sinnett in London signed by KH after Olcott got a letter from M advising him to write one (as I read it) to other writings of HSO. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 19 13:42:58 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 9:42:58 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607191342.JAA27215@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy In-Reply-To: <960719071148_74024.3352_BHT166-3@CompuServe.COM>; from "Keith Price" at Jul 19, 96 3:18 am The purity obsession among certain Theosophists represents a rebirth of a perennial pattern in religious behavior. According to several contemporary scholars on Jesus, a large part of his message was the repudiation of a "purity ethos" in favor of a "compassion ethos." Thus statements like "it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out," "was man made for the sabbath or the sabbath for man", and "don't pray like the Pharisees who thank God they are not like other people." (Paraphrases.) There is a karmic relationship between HPB's anti-sexual remarks and CWL's behavior, IMO. (STOP READING HERE, ANYONE WHO CAN'T STAND REFERENCES TO WHAT HE DID.) When Annie Besant was presented with evidence that he molested boys (not just advised them to masturbate), one of her responses was to dismiss it by saying "sex is impossible for initiates." Meaning that she had a syllogism that went like this: HPB says to reach a high level of spiritual attainment you have to be celibate. CWL is my link to the Masters and a fellow initiate. Therefore, CWL could not possibly have done these things. If Theosophy were not so puritanical to start with, so rejecting of the flesh, then perhaps the shadow of sexuality denied and projected ("it was those boys who were lustful and needed help overcoming it!") would not have darkened the movement for so long. The Cayce literature is much more about integration and balance of spirit, mind and body, and much less about the "higher self" stamping out the "lower" because never the twain shall meet. When we get into the Voice, we'll have opportunities to talk about that. From jem@vnet.net Fri Jul 19 18:57:50 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 14:57:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607191857.OAA01439@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS in Ascii hi - if someone wants to send me a text copy of VOS I'll put it in the library so anyone can retrieve it with a "get" command to listserv. peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 19 19:48:33 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:48:33 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607191948.PAA23400@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Human evolution timetable In response to Martin's inquiry, I found a timetable of human evolution in Richard Leakey's Origins Reconsidered. Of course there will continue to be controversies and readjustments, but still the physical evidence refutes HPB's assertions about the history of our species. Here are some highlights of Leakey's chart: Stage of development Years ago 5-10 million Emergence of hominids, distinguished by bipedalism 2-3 million First stone tools, brain expansion and origin of Homo 1 million Homo erectus leaves Africa and enters Eurasia 700,000 Use of fire 200,000 Toolmaking advances with large cutting tools like axes 150,000 Modern humans originate in Africa 30,000 Representational and abstract images From jmeier@microfone.net Fri Jul 19 20:38:52 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:38:52 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607200038.AA17349@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: VOS in Ascii -- done >if someone wants to send me a text copy of VOS I'll put it in the >library so anyone can retrieve it with a "get" command to listserv. >peace - >john e. mead two files sent at more or less 20:30 on 19 July, file one "voice.txt" = 66k, file two "gloss.txt" = 29k The Paracelsus site claims this VOS edition to be the 1889 original. I've found (so far) only a few insignificant differences with my copy, which is the '73 Quest miniature. Regards, Jim From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 19 00:22:49 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:22:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice In-Reply-To: <199607182315.QAA01710@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607182315.QAA01710@sure.net>, James S Yungkans writes >we have in OUR century been privy to so >many discoveries, such as Tutankhamon's Burial chamber, Budda's Birthplace, >Etc. (which are virtual TIMECAPSULES of secret vedic knowedge) but we have >not pursued research comparing the contents of those discoveries with the >details given in SD. Maybe I'm mistaken but there seems to be a Massive gap >here that we should fill? No mistake, and I am sure you are right. Maybe you would like to start the ball rolling? My main discipline of 40 years has been Kabbalah (not the magickal or magical variety) so I am not too well qualified for the task you propose, though I have the SD, of course. Alan Bain --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 00:23:06 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:23:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Olcott and Babe the pig In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes >Is it really worth pursuing this thread of discussion? >Max > >On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Bee Brown wrote: > >>>snip<<< >> I have seen Babe and loved it and also Powder. I went to see it with some >> friends who are not into otherworldy stuff and try to ignore my theosophical >> leanings. I could almost hear their brains working overtime with the ideas >> presented. Just the sort of thing needed. I think in the end they chose to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> see it as just another science fiction, to be enjoyed and forgotten. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is surely valid social comment? More and more people seem to be taking this very same view of theosophy itself ... maybe we should wonder why? Alan >> Bee >> > >> > bcs > --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 00:38:51 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:38:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: summer school day 3 In-Reply-To: <960719081148_241116433@emout08.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960719081148_241116433@emout08.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >He worries about me everytime I come on this list. > >Chuck the Heretic Of course. So do we all - we care about you. We have to, we are F.T.S., committed to the first object. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 00:36:47 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:36:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Where are Atlantis and Lemuria?? In-Reply-To: <960719081144_241116367@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960719081144_241116367@emout15.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Try the Secret Doctrine. :-) Actually, we have no real idea where Atlantis >and Lemuria may have been, or if they really existed and were not just >allegories. > >Chuck the Heretic A book published a long time back, but maybe reprinted by theosophical sources, is "The Story of Atlantis & Lemuria" (or very similar). It is probably in Oclott Library, and is by a man called Scott-Elliot, a one- time member of the T.S. It is based on "psychic" perceptions rather than "scientific" ones, but it does answer the question from one angle - complete with maps! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 00:25:35 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:25:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <3rpRLOA$dC8xEwZl@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: DOWNLOADING VOICE of SILENCE In-Reply-To: <960719055634_74024.3352_BHT166-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960719055634_74024.3352_BHT166-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >Eldon relates that an electronic version of VOICE OF THE SILENCE by HPB is >available for retireval from a web source. I cannot access the web as I do not >currently have enough memory. If someone could please retrieve it and e-mail it >to me, we could post sections as we talk about them in small fragments while >some us get hardcopies. I just downloaded it it is in several parts and in htm format. If no one gets there before me. I think I have a program that will convert it to ASCII ... but let me know, otherwise I'll use the htm version(s). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 00:15:34 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:15:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <97PTvDAmUC8xEw4M@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Historical Jesus In-Reply-To: <9607190005.AA19653@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607190005.AA19653@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes > >Abrantes writes: >>Discussing about the probability to place the birth of Christ >>near a century sooner, as referred in Sepher Toldoth as cited by >>HPB, I said: >> >>>HPB only refers to Sepher Toldoth. So far as I recall, G.R.S. Mead gives a full translation of Sepher Toldoth in his book, "Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?" I am told there are later and better translations, but as Mead was secretary to HPB, it may be that it was his scholarship that she was making use of. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From pmmkien@main.com Sat Jul 20 02:52:42 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:52:42 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607200253.VAA18827@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Mahatma letters If the Masters had anything to do with writing the Mahatma letters, why is it that the science discussed in these letters reflects 19th century ideas, and is so at odds with present day observations? Were the Mahatmas just bad scientists or (more probably) were the letters authored by someone else who was just echoing the ideas of the day. 1. Atlantis? A very popular 19th century idea. It just doesn't exist. I challenge anyone to take the latest satellite pictures of the Earth's oceans and find me Atlantis or where it was in the Eocene or Miocene. One of the latest ideas is that Atlantis is actually Antartica. That's quite a long way off - and it didn't submerge in the Miocene. 2. The Earth being heated by meteors? Give me a break. 3. The velocity of light different outside our atmosphere. Again this was a big 19th century debate, put to rest by Einstein's relativity based on observations that the speed of light is a constant. 4. The sun is a cold world! No comment. 5. The sun contains a large amount of iron? Again a 19th century idea based on the observation that the spectral lines of iron found in the sun are strong. Actually, iron is a very minor element <<< 1%. And so on. I don't know if what is written in those pages on non-scientific issues makes any sense. But the scientific passages are painful to read. Paul K. From drais@mail.telis.org Sat Jul 20 15:13:24 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:13:24 -0800 From: "John H. Drais" Message-Id: <199607201415.HAA23038@mail-02.telis.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Address change Please take not of this address change. My old address drais@crash.cts.com is no longer in service. Telis offers $12.00 per month for 60 hours of use, $0.95 per hour 60 hours, free between 1 AM and 6 AM, and access via 800 number fromanywhere in CA ($0.10 per minute outside CA). Telis is a subsidiary of MCI and seems to be in competition with them. Call 1-800-44-telis for your own connection. John H Drais, Abbot The Paracelsian Order 18372 Highway 94 Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA (619) 468-3512 From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 20 04:41:14 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:41:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607200441.AAA04025@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Voices of the Silence on-line hi - Thanks to Jim Meier the Voice of the Silence is now available in ascii to THEOS-L subscribers (and anyone else). to retrieve it send an e-mail messahe to listserv@vnet.net containing the lines: get theos-L vos.txt get theos-L vosglos.txt you will receive in your e-mail the VOS as well as the Glossary. I want to really thank Jim Meier for his valuable help!! peace - john e. mead p.s. send any errors to myself at jem@vnet.net ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 20 04:51:58 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607200451.AAA04396@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS errors hi - any errors found in the on-line version of VOS are probably my fault. please direcy them to me. peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 05:30:30 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:30:30 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720013027_580809461@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Olcott and Babe the pig Ann, Movies about pigs are not to my taste, talking or otherwise. And it seems that the bulk of the rain was far south of Olcott. There was a story floating (sorry about that) around that the --er--entertainment had to swim out of where they were staying with their instruments on their backs. A pity they didn't drown. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 05:30:33 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:30:33 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720013032_580809910@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Keith, Fascinating. The only objection I can raise the fact that I am a Virgo and there ain't nothing pure about me. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 05:31:22 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:31:22 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720013121_580809937@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Castaneda Uri, I've read a couple of them many years ago. I was not impressed. Chuck From mikap@dlc.fi Sat Jul 20 03:31:53 1996 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:31:53 -0700 From: mika perdld Message-Id: <31F05329.7C33@dlc.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Hello everybody and everyspirit!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! My name is Mika Perala and I`m a member in the Finnish T.S.=20 I=B4ve read your conversations here in theos-l for a month now at work, b= ut=20 I haven`t said anything until now that I=B4ve got my own modem at home. I`m looking forward to exhange ideas and comments with all of you. Sorry about my english, it=B4s getting better. I`m a 26 six-year old postman and I`ve been a member of TS for 3 years=20 now and at this moment I=B4m the librarian in our Helsinki HQ. Quite ofte= n=20 I wonder why, cause I feel that time has stopped in the TS and the world=20 around us evolves and we just do what we have always have done and=20 less and less people are interested in our doings. No wonder. Are we=20 interested in what the people are doing. Still there`s a huge demand=20 among people in things spiritual.=20 All right, doctors - what`s the medicine for T.S? Mika My personal mail can be sent to mikap@dlc.fi From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sat Jul 20 07:54:19 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 20:54:19 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F090AB.59B1@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Hello everybody and everyspirit!! References: <31F05329.7C33@dlc.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mika perdld wrote: > > Hi! My name is Mika Perala and I`m a member in the Finnish T.S.=20 > I=B4ve read your conversations here in theos-l for a month now at work, b= > ut=20 > I haven`t said anything until now that I=B4ve got my own modem at home. > > I`m looking forward to exhange ideas and comments with all of you. > > Sorry about my english, it=B4s getting better. > > I`m a 26 six-year old postman and I`ve been a member of TS for 3 years=20 > now and at this moment I=B4m the librarian in our Helsinki HQ. Quite ofte= > n=20 > I wonder why, cause I feel that time has stopped in the TS and the world=20 > around us evolves and we just do what we have always have done and=20 > less and less people are interested in our doings. No wonder. Are we=20 > interested in what the people are doing. Still there`s a huge demand=20 > among people in things spiritual.=20 > All right, doctors - what`s the medicine for T.S? > > Mika > > My personal mail can be sent to mikap@dlc.fi Hi Mika, A very good question and I too wish I could think of an answer. At least your HQ has a 26 year old doing something which is more than the Lodge I am president off. I am 55 and there are 2 members younger than me. I am beginning to get the feeling that TS needs to develop a method of spiritual practice from the teachings and teach a practical way of treading the path that can cover the beginner thru to the more esoteric stuff. I have visits in the library from one or two young people who want to discuss this sort of thing and I have decided to do what I can and just today I gave some advice that I picked up in a Rosicrucian book by Max Heindel. I did think it ironic to sit in a TS library and pass on Rosicrucian methods. They come to TS to get some guidance of a practical sort and find that there isn't a 'TS yoga' or something similar. They move on to somewhere that has this, be it good, bad or indifferent, it seems to give them the feeling that they are doing something towards their own spiritual growth. I doubt that the NZ HQ would approve of my sentiments but I am concerned for these folk that come asking and I have no real TS answer for them apart from suggesting a book or else doing it my way which isn't guaranteed to be the answer either but I figure I am at least trying. Frustratingly Bee From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 11:47:53 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:47:53 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720074753_160342836@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: summer school day 3 Alan, Bless you. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 11:48:51 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:48:51 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720074850_160342988@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Where are Atlantis and Lemuria?? Alan, I have the Scott-elliot book. It's great fun, but not to be taken too seriously. Chuck the Heretic From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 15:59:36 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 11:59:36 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Pigs, Virgos and Sliders Message-Id: <960720155935_72723.2375_FHP9-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck the Heretic: >There was a story floating (sorry about that) around that the >--er--entertainment had to swim out of where they were staying with their >instruments on their backs. A pity they didn't drown. Since I did not hear them for myself, I will chalk up your assessment to personal opinion, until I hear other reviews. Alas, your dislike for piggies influenced your movie review. Along the same lines of Theosophical enterntainment, I'd be interested to hear if anyone, perhaps only in the US, watches the syndicated sci-fi series called "Sliders". I viewed a tape of one episode last night and one of the characters was curiously "stuck" on the "astral plane". He stayed there until rescued at the end of show. Only one woman had the ability to see him and she had been ridiculed for having this power. But the real kicker is that at the beginning of the show the astral plane was stated as a belief of *Theosophy*. Finally, Theosophy makes it to prime-time TV!!! Chuck, again: >Fascinating. The only objection I can raise the fact that I am a Virgo and >there ain't nothing pure about me. That explains a great deal. ; - ) Ann E. Bermingham From RIhle@aol.com Sat Jul 20 16:40:38 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:40:38 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960720124036_241861161@emout08.mail.aol.com> Subject: Consolation Prizes Paul writes> >But the Keith/Richard >alternative, to say that theosophical/Theosophical insights are >only relevant within the restricted realm of inner meanings and >depth psychology, but not in the realm of physical reality, >throws out the baby with the bathwater. Richard Ihle writes> I am always happy to be in the company of a smart guy like Keith, of course, but apart from our general agreement that some sort of developed "theosophical apprehension" may also be necessary to approach subjects like reincarnation, I am not sure we are linked beyond that. For example: I am not sure what he means by the following: "We must reach to another level that we now only intuit as the intuitional or atma-buddhic level. It is here that reincarnation makes sense. You have to play our the implicate order (DNA/cosmic coding) through succesive explicate/material/earth-lives orders." And as to my side, I am not sure Keith would want to go so far as to join me in regarding the understanding of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis as ~consolation prizes~. Guessing from the passage quoted from Paul above, one might not think that Paul regarded Cosmogenesis as one of the consolation-prize branches of the Principal Theosophical Philosophy (~PTP~) either. Indeed, one could almost read it as meaning that theosophical knowledge about the origin and evolution of physical reality is the "baby" and that knowledge about the possible translifetime and psychogenetic transformations of humanity is the "bathwater." No, I'll bet Paul didn't quite mean that. Still, there is a good chance he, also, may not be ready to join me in the assertion that the laborious study of HPB's Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis may almost be thought of as merely going after the consolation prizes. But why such an assertion to begin with? Simple: because perhaps the only part of the PTP which has much to do with developing Adeptship is ~Psychogenesis~. Now, I think I have some bad news for any new "Messenger" waiting in the wings: You will not be able to "invent" ~Psychogenesis~ from scratch. It is already a principal component of THE SECRET DOCTRINE and related writings. HPB simply did not name it as such. When she talks about ~Manvantara~, ~Fohat~ etc., she is talking Cosmogenesis; when she talks about Rounds, Root-Races etc., she is talking Anthropogenesis; however, when she talks about ~kama-manas~, higher/lower ego etc. she is simply talking Psychogenesis without bothering to categorize it with a separate term. No, while I have some serious doubts that she had a complete grasp on the sequential ("psychomaturational") pattern the ~I am~ follows as its new possibilities for egoic delusions unfold, I have no doubt whatever that when HPB was talking consciousness, she was talking Psychogenesis. And as compared with Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis, at least you can ~do~ something with a little understanding of Psychogenesis. For starters, you can learn to recognize both your own and other people's egoic ("semi-Self") indulgences; thus, you can avoid many mistakes resulting from some "ego-of-the-moment"--your own or someone else's--trying to gain ascendancy over other egos-of-the-moment in a similar "strata" of differentiated consciousness. In short, an understanding of Psychogenesis can help you in the Actual Work. On the other hand, what is your benefit in knowing about some "Lunar Chain," the "Lemurians" or a trillion other obscure details on the same order? How can such knowledge actually ~improve~ your life? Can it give you more energy, intelligence, power, longevity, charisma, sensitivity, or good health? More importantly, can it make you ~happy~? Most importantly, can it improve your Self-awareness? No, I don't think so. There is a significant sense in which Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis may be just ~pure knowledge just for its own sake~. It is interesting to think you may know how things work on the macro-scale or translifetime dimension, but it is doubtful whether such knowledge will help you with the personal developments which can lighten the earth-globe on your back enough so that you can start ~playing~ with it. . . . No, for this you need Psychogenesis. Thus, I am hopeful that Paul's passing inclusion of "depth psychology" with the "bathwater" of the PTP was not referring to Psychogenesis. Knowing him, it probably wasn't. Considering that the "hydrogen/Oneness" post it was embedded in seemed like a stroke of genius to me, it probably ~definitely~ wasn't. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Sat Jul 20 15:06:56 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:06:56 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607201704.LAA06161@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Speed of light > >3. The velocity of light different outside our atmosphere. Again this was a >big 19th century debate, put to rest by Einstein's relativity based on >observations that the speed of light is a constant. Paul, actually the speed of light is constant within a specific medium, but varies between different media: from http://csep1.phy.ornl.gov/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html To be precise, what we usually call the "speed of light" is really the speed of light in a vacuum (the absence of matter). In reality, the speed of light depends on the material that light moves through. Thus, for example, light moves slower in glass than in air, and in both cases the speed is less than in a vacuum. However, the density of matter between the stars is sufficiently low that the actual speed of light through most of interstellar space is essentially the speed it would have through a vacuum, so we don't make much error by ignoring the difference. The preceding statements about the constant speed of light refer to the speed of light in a particular medium, such as a vacuum. Within such a medium, the speed is constant, but light changes its speed when it moves from one medium (say air) to another (say glass). This change of speed at the boundary between two different media is the principle that causes a lens in a telescope or eyeglasses to work. Bjorn From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Sat Jul 20 15:08:55 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:08:55 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607201706.LAA06175@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS What are the URLs for downloading VOS? Bjorn From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 20 17:43:28 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:43:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607201743.NAA16220@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: The Truth I found the following in my Zen calendar on Wednesday. "There ain't no answer. There ain't gonna be any answer. There never has been an answer. There's the answer." (by Gertrude Stein) Maybe we can get back to the task of becoming Human beings now. BTW: There is no religion higher than Truth. There is no shit higher than Truth. (Paul J.) All Truth lies upon a foundation of shit. (jem->rewording Paul's truth). peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 18:44:02 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 14:44:02 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE OF THE SILENCE - Text - Section 1 Message-Id: <960720184401_74024.3352_BHT104-1@CompuServe.COM> Thanks to Jim M. for retrieving this for theos-roots discussion from a web site. Best wishes to all as we listen to the Voice of the Silence by HPB. - I am also sending this to theos-l as it is a good advertisement for the discussion on theos-roots, theos-l, theosophy and Blavatsky. How will people who haven't read Blavatsky know if they might be interested? Could it hurt anyone to read it? It is BLavatsky! -Keith THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE is in about 8 parts, counting Glossaries and forward. Section I is attached to this post THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE AND OTHER CHOSEN FRAGMENTS FROM THE BOOK OF THE GOLDEN PRECEPTS. FOR THE DAILY USE OF LANOOS (DISCIPLES) ______ TRANSLATED AND ANNOTATED BY "H. P. B." ______ NEW YORK. THEOSOPHICAL PUBLISHING CO. 244 LENOX AVENUE. ______ LONDON. KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH, TRUBNER & CO. DRYDEN HOUSE, 43 GERRARD ST. Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1889, in the office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington, D.C. BY H. P. BLAVATSKY. DEDICATED TO THE FEW. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. [i] PREFACE. THE following pages are derived from the Book of the Golden Precepts, one of the works put into the hands of mystic students in the East. The knowledge of them is obligatory in that School, the teachings of which are accepted by many Theosophists. Therefore, as I know many of these Precepts by heart, the work of translating has been relatively an easy task for me. It is well known that, in India, the methods of psychic development differ with the Gurus (teachers or masters), not only because of their belonging to different Schools of Philosophy, of which there are six, but because every Guru has his own system, which he generally keeps very secret. But beyond the Himalayas the method in the Esoteric Schools does not differ, unless the Guru is simply a Lama, but little more learned than those he teaches. The work from which I here translate forms part of the same series as that from which the "Stanzas " of the Book of Dzyan were taken, on which the Secret Doctrine is based. Together with the great mystic work called Paramartha, which, the legend of Nagarjuna tells us, was delivered to the great Arhat by the Nagas or "Serpents" (in truth a name given to the ancient Initiates), the Book of the Golden Precepts claims the same origin. Yet its maxims and ideas, however noble and original, are often found under different forms in Sanskrit [ii] works, such as the Dnyaneshvari, that superb mystic treatise in which Krishna describes to Arjuna in glowing colors the condition of a fully illumined Yogi; and again in certain Upanishads. This is but natural, since most, if not all, of the greatest Arhats, the first followers of Gautama Buddha, were Hindus and Aryans, not Mongolians, especially those who emigrated into Tibet. The works left by Aryasangha alone are very numerous. The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblongs; copies very often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called "contemplative" or Mahayana (Yogacharya) Schools are established. They are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs. The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colors, each of which corresponds to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple and seventy-four compound letters), thus forming a complete cryptographic alphabet. When the ideographs are used there is a definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and signs used in astrology, namely, the twelve zodiacal animals and the seven primary colors, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the primary, and the dark - stand for the thirty-three letters of the simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled [iii] with the five elements and the seven colors, furnish a whole alphabet composed of sixty sacred letters and twelve signs. A sign placed at the beginning of the text determines whether the reader has to spell it according to the Indian mode, when every word is simply a Sanskrit adaptation, or according to the Chinese principle of reading the ideographs. The easiest way, however, is that which allows the reader to use no special, or any language he likes, as the signs and symbols were, like the Arabian numerals or figures, common and international property among initiated mystics and their followers. The same peculiarity is characteristic of one of the Chinese modes of writing, which can be read with equal facility by anyone acquainted with the character: for instance, a Japanese can read it in his own language as readily as a Chinaman in his. The Book of the Golden Precepts - some of which are pre-Buddhistic while others belong to a later date - contains about ninety distinct little treatises. Of these I learned thirty-nine by heart, years ago. To translate the rest, I should have to resort to notes scattered among a too large number of papers and memoranda collected for the last twenty years and never put in order, to make of it by any means an easy task. Nor could they be all translated and given to a world too selfish and too much attached to objects of sense to be in any way prepared to receive such exalted ethics in the right spirit. For, unless a man perseveres seriously in the pursuit of self-knowledge, he will never lend a willing ear to advice of this nature. [iv] And yet such ethics fill volumes upon volumes in Eastern literature, especially in the Upanishads. "Kill out all desire of life", says Krishna to Arjuna. That desire lingers only in the body, the vehicle of the embodied Self, not in the SELF which is "eternal, indestructible, which kills not nor is it killed". (Kathopanishad.) "Kill out sensation", teaches Sutta Nipata; "look alike on pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat". Again, "Seek shelter in the eternal alone" (ibid). "Destroy the sense of separateness", repeats Krishna under every form. "The Mind (Manas) which follows the rambling senses, makes the Soul (Buddhi) as helpless as the boat which the wind leads astray upon the waters". (Bhagavad Gita, II.) Therefore it has been thought better to make a judicious selection only from those treatises which will best suit the few real mystics in the Theosophical Society, and which are sure to answer their needs. It is only these who will appreciate these words of Krishna-Christos, the "Higher Self": "Sages do not grieve for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be". --Bhagavad Gita, II. In this translation, I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of language and imagery which characterizes the original. How far this effort has been successful, is for the reader to judge. "H.P.B." 1889. [1] FRAGMENT I. ________ THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. THESE instructions are for those ignorant of the dangers of the lower IDDHI.(1). ________ He who would hear the voice of Nada,(2) the "Soundless Sound", and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana.(3) Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the Rajah of the [2] senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. For- When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE - the inner sound which kills the outer. Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, to come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the Soul can see, the harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden firefly. [3] Before the Soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united, just as the form to which the clay is modelled is first united with the potter's mind. For then the Soul will hear, and will remember. And then to the inner ear will speak- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, And say: If thy Soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy Soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy Soul weeps inside her castle of illusion; if thy Soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER; (4) know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding Soul (5) lends ear; when to the roaring voice of the [4] Great Illusion thy Soul responds; (6) when frightened at the sight of the hot tears of pain, when deafened by the cries of distress, thy Soul withdraws like the shy turtle within the carapace of SELFHOOD, learn, O Disciple, of her Silent "God" thy Soul is an unworthy shrine. When waxing stronger, thy Soul glides forth from her secure retreat; and breaking loose from the protecting shrine, extends her silver thread and rushes onward; when beholding her image on the waves of Space she whispers, "This is I"- declare, O Disciple, that thy Soul is caught in the webs of delusion. (7) This earth, Disciple, is the Hall of Sorrow, wherein are set along the Path of dire probations, traps to ensnare thy EGO by the delusion called "Great Heresy". (8) This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light - that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. [5] Saith the Great Law: "In order to become the KNOWER of ALL SELF, (9) thou hast first of SELF to be the knower". To reach the knowledge of that SELF, thou hast to give up Self to Non-Self, Being to Non-Being, and then thou canst repose between the wings of the GREAT BIRD. Aye, sweet is rest between the wings of that which is not born, nor dies, but is the AUM (10) throughout eternal ages. (11) Bestride the Bird of Life, if thou would'st know. (12) Give up thy life, if thou would'st live. (13) Three Halls, O weary Pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, [6] will bring thee through three states (14) into the fourth, (15) and thence into the seven Worlds, (16) the Worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE - Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou first saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. (17) The name of Hall the second is the Hall of LEARNING.* {The Hall of Probationary Learning.} In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. (18) [7] The name of the third Hall is WISDOM, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience (19). If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the sunlight of life. If thou would'st cross the second safely, stop not the fragrance of its stupefying blossoms to inhale. If freed thou would'st be from the karmic chains, seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions. The WISE ONES tarry not in pleasure-grounds of senses. The WISE ONES heed not the sweet-tongued voices of illusion. Seek for him who is to give thee birth, (20) in the Hall of Wisdom, the Hall which lies beyond, wherein all shadows are unknown, and where the light of truth shines with unfading glory. [8] That which is uncreate abides in thee, Disciple, as it abides in that Hall. If thou would'st reach it and blend the two, thou must divest thyself of thy dark garments of illusion. Stifle the voice of flesh, allow no image of the senses to get between its light and thine, that thus the twain may blend in one. And having learnt thine own Ajnyana, (21) flee from the Hall of Learning. This Hall is dangerous in its perfidious beauty, is needed but for thy probation. Beware, Lanoo, lest dazzled by illusive radiance thy Soul should linger and be caught in its deceptive light. This light shines from the jewel of the Great Ensnarer, (Mara). (22) The senses it bewitches, blinds the mind, and leaves the unwary an abandoned wreck. The moth attracted to the dazzling flame of thy night-lamp is doomed to perish in the viscid [9] oil. The unwary Soul that fails to grapple with the mocking demon of illusion, will return to earth the slave of Mara. Behold the Hosts of Souls. Watch how they hover o'er the stormy sea of human life, and how, exhausted, bleeding, broken-winged, they drop one after other on the swelling waves. Tossed by the fierce winds, chased by the gale, they drift into the eddies and disappear within the first great vortex. If through the Hall of Wisdom thou would'st reach the Vale of Bliss, Disciple, close fast thy senses against the great dire heresy of Separateness that weans thee from the rest. Let not thy "Heaven-Born", merged in the sea of Maya, break from the Universal Parent (SOUL), but let the fiery power retire into the inmost chamber, the chamber of the Heart, (23) and the abode of the World's Mother. (24) [10] Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE- SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice. 'Tis only then thou canst become a "Walker of the Sky," (25) who treads the winds above the waves, whose step touches not the waters. Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD* {The Higher SELF.} in seven manners. The first is like the nightingale's sweet voice chanting a song of parting to its mate. The second comes as the sound of a silver cymbal of the Dhyanis, awakening the twinkling stars. The next is as the plaint melodious of the ocean-sprite imprisoned in its shell. [11] And this is followed by the chant of Vina (26). The fifth like sound of bamboo-flute shrills in thine ear. It changes next into a trumpet-blast. The last vibrates like the dull rumbling of a thunder-cloud. The seventh swallows all the other sounds. They die, and then are heard no more. When the six (27) are slain and at the Master's feet are laid, then is the pupil merged into the ONE (28), becomes that ONE and lives therein. Before that path is entered, thou must destroy thy lunar body, (29) cleanse thy mind-body, (30) and make clean thy heart. [12] Eternal life's pure waters, clear and crystal, with the monsoon tempest's muddy torrents cannot mingle. Heaven's dew-drop glittering in the morn's first sunbeam within the bosom of the lotus, when dropped on earth becomes a piece of clay; behold, the pearl is now a speck of mire. Strive with thy thoughts unclean before they over-power thee. Use them as they will thee, for if thou sparest them and they take root and grow, know well these thoughts will overpower and kill thee. Beware, Disciple, suffer not, e'en though it be their shadow, to approach. For it will grow, increase in size and power, and then this thing of darkness will absorb thy being before thou hast well realized the black foul monster's presence. Before the "mystic Power" (31)* {Kundalin=EE, the "Serpent Power," or mystic fire.} can make of thee a God, Lanoo, thou must have gained the faculty to slay thy lunar form at will. [13] The Self of Matter and the SELF of Spirit can never meet. One of the twain must disappear; there is no place for both. Ere thy Soul's mind can understand, the bud of personality must be crushed out; the worm of sense destroyed past resurrection. Thou canst not travel on the Path before thou hast become that Path itself. (32) Let thy Soul lend its ear to every cry of pain like as the lotus bares its heart to drink the morning sun. Let not the fierce Sun dry one tear of pain before thyself hast wiped it from the sufferer's eye. But let each burning human tear drop on thy heart and there remain; nor ever brush it off until the pain that caused it is removed. [14] These tears, O thou of heart most merciful, these are the streams that irrigate the fields of charity immortal. 'Tis on such soil that grows the midnight blossom of Buddha, (33) more difficult to find, more rare to view, than is the flower of the Vogay tree. It is the seed of freedom from rebirth. It isolates the Arhat both from strife and lust, it leads him through the fields of Being unto the peace and bliss known only in the land of Silence and Non-Being. Kill out desire; but if thou killest it, take heed lest from the dead it should again arise. Kill love of life; but if thou slayest Tanha,(34) let this not be for thirst of life eternal, but to replace the fleeting by the everlasting. Desire nothing. Chafe not at Karma, nor at Nature's changeless laws. But struggle only with the personal, the transitory, the evanescent, and the perishable. Help Nature and work on with her; and Nature will regard thee as one of her creators and make obeisance. [15] And she will open wide before thee the portals of her secret chambers, lay bare before thy gaze the treasures hidden in the very depths of her pure virgin bosom. Unsullied by the hand of Matter, she shows her treasures only to the eye of Spirit- the eye which never closes, the eye for which there is no veil in all her kingdoms. Then will she show thee the means and way, the first gate and the second, the third, up to the very seventh. And then, the goal; beyond which lie, bathed in the sunlight of the Spirit, glories untold, unseen by any save the eye of Soul. There is but one road to the Path; at its very end alone the Voice of the Silence can be heard. The ladder by which the candidate ascends is formed of rungs of suffering and pain; these can be silenced only by the voice of virtue. Woe, then, to thee, Disciple, if there is one single vice thou hast not left behind; for then the ladder will give way and overthrow thee; its foot rests in the deep mire of thy sins and failings, and ere thou canst attempt to cross this wide abyss of matter thou hast to lave thy feet in Waters of Renunciation. Beware lest thou [16] should'st set a foot still soiled upon the ladder's lowest rung. Woe unto him who dares pollute one rung with miry feet. The foul and viscous mud will dry, become tenacious, then glue his feet unto the spot; and like a bird caught in the wily fowler's lime, he will be stayed from further progress. His vices will take shape and drag him down. His sins will raise their voices like as the jackal's laugh and sob after the sun goes down; his thoughts become an army, and bear him off a captive slave. Kill thy desires, Lanoo, make thy vices impotent, ere the first step is taken on the solemn journey. Strangle thy sins, and make them dumb for ever, before thou dost lift one foot to mount the ladder. Silence thy thoughts and fix thy whole attention on thy Master, whom yet thou dost not see, but whom thou feelest. Merge into one sense thy senses, if thou would'st be secure against the foe. 'Tis by that sense alone which lies concealed within the hollow of thy brain, that the steep path [17] which leadeth to thy Master may be disclosed before thy Soul's dim eyes. Long and weary is the way before thee, O Disciple. One single thought about the past that thou hast left behind, will drag thee down and thou wilt have to start the climb anew. Kill in thyself all memory of past experiences. Look not behind or thou art lost. Do not believe that lust can ever be killed out if gratified or satiated, for this is an abomination inspired by Mara. It is by feeding vice that it expands and waxes strong, like to the worm that fattens on the blossom's heart. The rose must re-become the bud, born of its parent stem before the parasite has eaten through its heart and drunk its life-sap. The golden tree puts forth its jewel-buds before its trunk is withered by the storm. The Pupil must regain the child-state he has lost 'ere the first sound can fall upon his ear. The light from the ONE MASTER, the one unfading light of Spirit, shoots its effulgent [18] beams on the Disciple from the very first. Its rays thread through the thick, dark clouds of Matter. Now here, now there, these rays illumine it, like sun-sparks light the earth through the thick foliage of the jungle growth. But, O Disciple, unless the flesh is passive, head cool, the Soul as firm and pure as flaming diamond, the radiance will not reach the chamber (23), its sunlight will not warm the heart, nor will the mystic sounds of the akasic heights (35) reach the ear, however eager, at the initial stage. Unless thou hear'st, thou canst not see. Unless thou see'st, thou canst not hear. To hear and see, this is the second stage. . . . . . . . . When the Disciple sees and hears, and when he smells and tastes, eyes closed, ears shut, with mouth and nostrils stopped; when the four senses blend and ready are to pass into the fifth, that of the inner touch - then into stage the fourth he hath passed on. [19] And in the fifth, O slayer of thy thoughts, all these again have to be killed beyond re=E4nimation. (36) Withhold thy mind from all external objects, all external sights. Withhold internal images, lest on thy Soul-light a dark shadow they should cast. Thou art now in DHARANA, (37) the sixth stage. When thou hast passed into the seventh, O happy one, thou shalt perceive no more the sacred Three, (38) for thou shalt have become that Three thyself. Thyself and mind, like twins upon a line, the star which is thy goal [20] burns overhead (39). The Three that dwell in glory and in bliss ineffable, now in the World of Maya have lost their names. They have become one star, the fire that burns but scorches not, that fire which is the Upadhi (40) of the Flame. And this, O Yog=EE of success, is what men call Dhyana, (41) the right precursor of Samadhi. (42) And now thy Self is lost in SELF, Thyself unto THYSELF, merged in THAT SELF from which thou first didst radiate. Where is thy individuality, Lanoo, where the Lanoo himself? It is the spark lost in the fire, [21] the drop within the ocean, the ever-present ray become the All and the eternal radiance. And now, Lanoo, thou art the doer and the witness, the radiator and the radiation, Light in the Sound, and the Sound in the Light. Thou art acquainted with the five impediments, O blessed one. Thou art their conqueror, the Master of the sixth, deliverer of the four modes of Truth. (43) The light that falls upon them shines from thyself, O thou who wast Disciple, but art Teacher now. And of these modes of Truth- Hast thou not passed through knowledge of all misery - truth the first? Hast thou not conquered the Maras' King at Tsi, the portal of assembling - truth the second? (44). [22] Hast thou not sin at the third gate destroyed, and truth the third attained? Hast thou not entered Tau, the "Path" that leads to knowledge - the fourth truth? (45). And now, rest 'neath the Bodhi tree, which is perfection of all knowledge, for, know, thou art the Master of SAMADHI - the state of faultless vision. Behold! thou hast become the Light, thou hast become the Sound, thou art thy Master and thy God. Thou art THYSELF the object of thy search: the VOICE unbroken, that resounds throughout eternities, exempt from change, from sin exempt, the Seven Sounds in one, THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. OM TAT SAT. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2: to follow next week to theos-roots and NOT to theos-l Namaste - KP From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 19:12:26 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 15:12:26 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Phenomenon of Powder Pig Message-Id: <960720191226_74024.3352_BHT93-1@CompuServe.COM> I am so pleased to find fellow thesophist who see theosophical themese in movies. I believe many artists want to lift the film medium to the highest level by simple story telling called PARABLES. Didn't Jesus tell the story of a man whose demons lept into a pig and they jumped over a cliff, the mustard seed and lotus are good enough for some. I have to catch up on my movies. Favorite movies with "theosophical?" themes: 2001, Island of Dr. Moreau, Wizard of Oz, Fantasia (seven songs for seven levels), Little Buddha, almost all of Disney's fairy tales, etc. ..... Max as far as the discussion goes, I say don't get MAD get some HEADROOM :::)))) Namste Keith Price From shaman@primenet.com Sat Jul 20 19:28:13 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:28:13 -0700 (MST) From: Shaman Message-Id: <199607201928.MAA00360@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Phenomenon of Powder Pig In-Reply-To: <960720191226_74024.3352_BHT93-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Keith Price" at Jul 20, 96 03:14:34 pm Content-Type: text > > I am so pleased to find fellow thesophist who see theosophical themese in > movies. I believe many artists want to lift the film medium to the highest > level by simple story telling called PARABLES. Didn't Jesus tell the story of a > man whose demons lept into a pig and they jumped over a cliff, the mustard seed > and lotus are good enough for some. I have to catch up on my movies. Favorite > movies with "theosophical?" themes: > 2001, Island of Dr. Moreau, Wizard of Oz, Fantasia (seven songs for seven > levels), Little Buddha, almost all of Disney's fairy tales, etc. ..... > If you re really interested in movies of that nature, try "Resurrection", "My Life", "Defending Your Life" and even "The Neverending Story." Any more recommendations? bcs -- -- Baltimore Chessman-Sweeney "I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am." e-mail: shaman@primenet.com balto1@rtd.com From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sat Jul 20 19:32:34 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:32:34 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F13452.7F70@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Consolation Prizes References: <960720124036_241861161@emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RIhle@aol.com wrote: Big snip.... > On the other hand, what is your benefit in knowing about some "Lunar Chain," > the "Lemurians" or a trillion other obscure details on the same order? How > can such knowledge actually ~improve~ your life? Can it give you more > energy, intelligence, power, longevity, charisma, sensitivity, or good > health? More importantly, can it make you ~happy~? Most importantly, can it> improve your Self-awareness? > > No, I don't think so. There is a significant sense in which Cosmogenesis and> Anthropogenesis may be just ~pure knowledge just for its own sake~. It is> interesting to think you may know how things work on the macro-scale or > translifetime dimension, but it is doubtful whether such knowledge will help> you with the personal developments which can lighten the earth-globe on your> back enough so that you can start ~playing~ with it. . . . I am afraid I disagree with you here. I used to see it that way until I became intrigued with a idea that lead me into anthropogenesis and I made the effort to understand it and I am still at it. The concept of the huge time span involved with the rounds and the evolution of the monads has produced a sense of spacious freedom. This life that seemed to get hemmed in at times has expanded and the urgency to do this or that has gone. I still do all the things I did before but the attitude has changed to a relaxed way of living. When I get myself in a tizz, which I still do from time to time, then I realise that I have stepped back into the little time frame and so remind myself to expand it again. Having learned that the Manapasutras did not enliven the mind-stuff of all of the human forms at the same time, that some were enlivened at a later time, has caused me to allow people to be what they are here and now without getting exasperated by the silliness of some of the people I know. I can deal with crime and such things within my rather sensitive reality and understand rather that try to ignore it. These are just some of the changes that have become obvious over the year or so that I have been involved with the 'consolation prizes'. I remember reading an article by HPB in an old Theosophical Path where she says that it isn't so important to come to grips with Cosmo and Anthro but the attempt of trying, expands the spiritual ability of the person's mind. It is an exercise in mind expansion so to speak. It increases the minds ability to understand abstract thought in the spiritual realms which seems necessary to arrive at the intuitional level thought. If you really want to know about what she says, I can lay my hands on it, I think. Regards, Bee > > No, for this you need Psychogenesis. Thus, I am hopeful that Paul's passing > inclusion of "depth psychology" with the "bathwater" of the PTP was not > referring to Psychogenesis. Knowing him, it probably wasn't. Considering > that the "hydrogen/Oneness" post it was embedded in seemed like a stroke of > genius to me, it probably ~definitely~ wasn't. . . . > > Godspeed, > > Richard Ihle From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 20 21:48:22 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 17:48:22 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960720174822_365987763@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: it's over!!!! Well, convention and summer school are over and it is going to take me a few days to recover my lost sleep, because I'm not used to getting up in the morning and going to bed at night. That is not the natural order of things for us vampires. Anyway, Friday was a pretty dull day, with the usual talks and the Ritual of the Musty Star in the evening. I don't quite know what to say about that. Personally, ritual that does fulfill a specific purpose, like bring money, curse the neighbors or cause the assisstants to become possessed by the twenty-two spirits of the Qlipoth seems like a total waste of time and this ritual the worst waste of time. But there are those who seem to get something out of it. I am just not one of them and if Gerda were not stuck as holy thuringer I would not have gone to it. Today there were the last two morning talks and then everyone prepared to head for home. Gerda and I drove the Gullo's to the airport, to the minor consternation of Jeff Gresco who had planned to put them on the van and he was a little unhappy that he had not been told, but Gabe, the van driver was and Jeff was just being overworked. Everyone on staff is during convention. In retrospect, I went with my daggers sharpened, expecting a confrontation on a number of levels, ranging from the personal reaction of some of the powers that be to my postings on this board and the creation of alt.theosophy, to a possible brawl over the by-laws, to an attempt by Radha to crack down on the freedom of theosophists. None of the above happened. On the contrary, it was one of the nicest gatherings in years and Radha was the soul of grace. Sure, I could live without the talking pig, but then I would not have expected John to include Natural Born Killers, a movie that is more to my liking and the disaster Thursday night was, well, something that happens every year at least once. The Moonlight Sonata will never sound the same to me as I will always remember it being played in the Olcott Library last Tuesday. This week was a respite I have needed. Now I go back to fight the battle of my life and one that I may lose. But if I do, I will know that the last convention of the TSA I attended was the best. Chuck the Heretic From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:43 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:43 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960720222543_76400.1474_HHL57-4@CompuServe.COM> > Without the descent into matter, there can >be no spiritual self-consciousness, no lessons of love and hate, >pain and bliss, knowledge and ignorance. This may be the "party line," Keith, but I believe that this is simply not true. There are lots of spiritual entities who know about love, and who have no need of incarnating. Jerry's Rule: We reincarnate because we want to, not because we have to. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:41 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:41 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960720222541_76400.1474_HHL57-3@CompuServe.COM> >Thus one often hears that CWL is to be dismissed because he was " impure" in his >suggestions to adolescent boys. HPB has been accused of all kind of things >from being a total virgin to a spy, to a lesbian (which I have no idea what to >believe so I leave it up to other like K Paul to keep digging). Worrying about the purity of historical figures is a lot like worrying about the purity of food, the purity of our neighbors, and so on. It all comes from our own inner fears and prejudices, and from what we have stored up in own shadow. CWL was right to teach sex to older children (16 or older) but wrong to touch them. HPB's teachings will not stand or fall on her sexual outlets, at least for me. I really don't care much is she was a lesbian or a celibate--which could be much worse) (she was of age to make such decisions). Activation of spiritual forces almost always charges the Root Center (muladhara) and Sex Center (svadhisthana) and one becomes sexy in spite of oneself. This is why gurus tend to get into sexual trouble. Its how we handle such phenomena that count. And repression is not an option. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:53 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:53 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960720222553_76400.1474_HHL57-7@CompuServe.COM> >If Theosophy were not so puritanical to start with, so >rejecting of the flesh, ... Paul, you may recall that Nancy and John Coker and I wrote an essay on sex for the Theosophical Network years ago. There was a deluge of comments, all critical, suggesting that good theosophists didn't need sex and were above such nasty things. Not one wrote in favor of our essay--which was to the effect that sex is a normal and natural part of life, and that one can have a sexual life and still tread the spiritual Path. Theosophists are as prudish (and wrong) today as they were last century. Jerry S. Members, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:37 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:37 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice Message-Id: <960720222536_76400.1474_HHL57-1@CompuServe.COM> >I'm trying to follow all these arguments about "Core Teachings." why is it >that with all the information studied and brainpower exerted over the >writings of "Theosophists", no-one seems to utilize "Comparative Religion" >to prove/disprove the writings of these "Theosophists?" If comparative religion could prove or disprove anything at all, it would have done so by now. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:54 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:54 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Castaneda Message-Id: <960720222554_76400.1474_HHL57-8@CompuServe.COM> I agree with Chuck. I have not been able to complete a single one of his books. My publisher, Llewellyn, is one of many publishers who turned down his books when he was getting started. As it turned out, because he mentioned mushrooms, his books became best sellers. But they lack authenticity to me. He has since, I believe, admitted to making up most of his material. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:50 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:50 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Blavatsky Bakti or Yoga of Transference Message-Id: <960720222550_76400.1474_HHL57-6@CompuServe.COM> > Freud and Jung have made much of the notion of "transference of lbido" to >the analyst as almost a prerequisite for getting better. One must really trust >a therapist and be in rapport for any deep change to take place. Small point: I believe it is transformation of libido, the transference and countertransference being two separate things. Jung taught that libido can be transformed into all kinds of psychic (i.e., mental and emotional) energy. Freud stuck with the notion that most all libido stayed sexual. A therapist is the western notion of a guru., and yes, you have to trust in each in order to have any effect. If your wife (or husband) tells you something personal, you may not believe them, but you will tend to believe the same thing if spoken by a guru or therapist. > I have always had >difficulty in linking with Blavatsky as a lovable historical figure. I find it very easy to do so. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:57 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:57 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Consolation Prizes Message-Id: <960720222557_76400.1474_HHL57-9@CompuServe.COM> >Simple: because perhaps the only part of the PTP which has much to do with >developing Adeptship is ~Psychogenesis~. As usual Richard, I agree with you. Cosmogenesis would have us wait for hundreds of thousands of years so that Adeptship can develop "naturally. " If there is such a pot of gold at the end of the theosophical rainbow, I, for one, refuse to wait. Knowledge and book-learning in general, is a consolation prize indeed, and is good for the remainder of this life only. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 22:25:38 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 18:25:38 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re:Theosophy Renaissance - Incarnated Message-Id: <960720222537_76400.1474_HHL57-2@CompuServe.COM> >Thus theosophy and core teachings must be incarnated in our very >being by daily experimentation and practice. I am only beginning this. Keith, if you do this honestly, you will find that your views and belief-system will change over time, sometimes dramatically, though always under a general theosophical umbrella. My own experiences force changes to my viewpoint of "core teachings" on an almost daily basis. Jerry S. Member, TI From euser@euronet.nl Sat Jul 20 22:28:44 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:28:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607202228.AAA23629@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: There *is* a TS yoga Bee: You stated that there doesn't exist a TS yoga. This is a bit to my amazement. In fact, there are several powerful exercises of a Raja Yoga type which are being practiced by some people (theosophists and non-theosophists) I know (I practice these exercises too). For brevity I will only mention them here (a fuller description of some of these can be found in my article: 'The psychological key to man' which you can retrieve at Spirit-www: http://www.spiritweb.org (see Theosophy section;Theosophy_basics(2)) - the famous Pythagorean exercise of looking back at the events of the day - the well-known method of building a picture (concretization of a spiritual object) in your mind, and let it work on your psyche. Very powerful method, recommended by many spiritual Schools. Fuller description: see my article. - AUM-meditation. Recommended by HPB, G de Purucker and others (reverberation of the sound in the skull, different pitches possible with different effects, visualization of a specific color can be used too in this meditative process). In Theosophical literature it is said not to perform this exercise when one is in an angry mood. HPB gave this meditation to her students (pitch = mi (E);color=yellow [color of buddhi]- this combination for soothing, calming effect on aura; I sometimes try it and it sure works! - Several other ('theosophy approved') meditations I know of: . considering ideas from different angles; trying to contemplate the different aspects of situations, events, relations, etc. This is a practical exercise which is applicable to daily life. It is useful in order to develop a more nuanced way of looking at things (going beyond black-or-white evaluations) . Abstract meditations about the Buddha-nature; pondering about the wholeness of life (Judge gives this exercise, he describes it more fully) - simple breathing exercises (this is simply to practice a more wholesome breathing habit [deeper breathing from belly] - I read about one variant in Vitvan's writings, but there are other variants. I would have to look it up though. Generally (in TS) breathing exercises are considered to be hatha-yoga, but I don't consider a wholesome breathing as a particular hatha-yoga thing. - A host of simple meditations can be found through the internet. I have mentioned some in my newage FAQ (see eg. White Eagle's third circle meditations (also for individuals) - Feeling type of exercises These may not be 'theosophy approved', but there are simple methods of registering vibrations of sense-impressions without forming an image in the mind (an automatic habit of the mind). I found a type of this exercise in Vitvan's writings together with other valuable exercises, most of which are connected to forming new patterns of identification (and unlearning old habits) regarding the energy-consciousness behind sense impressions. If you are interested in all this stuff I can give you references as where to find this information. - One of the most powerful 'exercises' is living life in a spiritual way: the Bhagavad Gita recommends action without desiring the fruits of the action. This advice may not be meant for 'newcomers' on the Path (people can benefit from this practice immensely if they're ready for it, but this advice has deeper significance when one is firmly established on the Path - this is my interpretation, although I've seen similar interpretations in spiritual literature). One added note: if people are asking about techniques for the explicit purpose of developing psychic powers - well, you know what the opinion is on that in Theosophical circles (and in some other spiritual organizations I know of). One can do that - but there is a danger of an inflated ego, blocking progress to the more spiritual realms. IOW, there's a rationale for deemphasizing psychic powers - if they come, fine, but don't be blinded by them. Martin From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Jul 21 05:22:48 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:22:48 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960721052248.0068ac98@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: "A New Tree of Life" Following is some information on the branchings of different types of life, taken from DISCOVER Magazine, and some speculations trying to link the information to theosophical concepts. Any additional scientific information or theosophical concepts that would be useful in this regard would be appreciated. As a speculation, this is not the "final word" on the subject, and I expect some of the ideas to be still in formulation and possibly wrong. Even so, it would be interesting to work through the materials to see how far they can be taken. -- Eldon ---- In the June 1996 DISCOVER Magazine is a one-page article entitled "A New Tree of Life". It suggests that all (physical) life has a common ancestor two billion years ago. The article has a graph that shows six groups of lives and when they might have branched off from a common ancestor. These six groups are (in order of earliest branching off): bacteria archaea protists plants fungi animals The article says "Microfossils found in 3.5 billion year old rocks in Austriala show that the first living things were prokaryotes, like today's bacteria..." The tree delinated in the article was pased upon an examination of 57 proteins (enzymes) found in most living things. A comparison as to how much the amino acid sequences of these enzymes differed among assorted forms of life was used to tell how closedly related certain groups were. There is, in the article, additional detail as to how the chart was arrived at. The timings of the branchings were given as: bacteria -- 3,500 million years ago archaea -- 2,000 million years ago protists -- 1,800 million years ago plants -- 1,200 million years ago fungi -- 1,000 million years ago animals -- 965 million years ago The only additional figure we might want to add would be where the human stock braches off from the animal. If we wanted to enhance this model to include kingdoms include in Theosophy, we would have: 1 elemental1-- 2 elemental2-- 3 elemental3-- 4 mineral -- 4,600 million years ago (???) 5 bacteria -- 3,500 million years ago 6 archaea -- 2,000 million years ago 7 protists -- 1,800 million years ago 8 plants -- 1,200 million years ago 9 fungi -- 1,000 million years ago 10 animals -- 965 million years ago 11 human -- 2 million years ago (???) 12 dc #1 -- tbd 13 dc #2 -- tbd 14 dc #3 -- tbd It's interesting that fungi comes after plants, out of order from how the theosophical kingdoms were ordered, and that there are, including it, four other organic "kingdoms". I'd like to see some other figures (like for the formation of physical earth, and the latest figures on the origination of humanity. Another item of interest would be if there were any astronomical time periods in the early formulation of the earth before it settled into the solid-crusted planet that it is, periods that might correspond to the "elemental" kingdom originations. From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sat Jul 20 23:15:21 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:15:21 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F16889.305E@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga References: <199607202228.AAA23629@mail.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin_Euser wrote: > > Bee: > > You stated that there doesn't exist > a TS yoga. This is a bit to my amazement. In fact, there are several > powerful exercises of a Raja Yoga type which are being practiced by > some people (theosophists and non-theosophists) I know (I practice these > exercises too). Many thanks for all this info. I shall have a good look. What I meant was that there seems to be no official TS method that beginners can practice. There is the ES but that is for certain people only as I understand. Dipping into all the areas you mentioned to find the appropriate way is fine for seasoned Theosophists who know where to look but to actually take some of these and weave them into a method and then teach them to newcomers will probably result in a slap on the knuckles. I personally would find such a method great for passing on to the young students who come in looking for that. > > - the famous Pythagorean exercise of looking back at the events of the day that is the one I found in the Rosicrusian book and gave that to the young woman who came yesterday. Big snip. > > One added note: if people are asking about techniques for the explicit > purpose of developing psychic powers - well, you know what the opinion is on > that in Theosophical circles (and in some other spiritual organizations I > know of). > One can do that - but there is a danger of an inflated ego, blocking > progress to the more spiritual realms. IOW, there's a rationale for > deemphasizing psychic powers - if they come, fine, but don't be blinded > by them. I agree with what you say and would not get involved in that area and I am quite open with people about that. I will ponder on all this and see what I can come up with. Many thanks Bee > > Martin > > From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 21 00:25:55 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 19:25:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: VOS In-Reply-To: <199607201706.LAA06175@alpinet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi url is http://www.upanet.uleth.ca/~PARA/index.htm You can also get it fron vnet where John E Mead had go it in ASCII. If you download from upanet.... then you will get files with HTML commands inserted and you need to convert it to ASCII. There is a shareware called HTMLCON.EXE which will do the conversion. It can be found and downloaded from Yahoo when you search for shareware html convert ascii. If you had difficulty, let me know and I will e-mail it as an attachment to a message. mk ramadoss =========================== On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > What are the URLs for downloading VOS? > > Bjorn > > > _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 21 00:53:49 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 17:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Consolation Prizes In-Reply-To: <960720124036_241861161@emout08.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re 'Psychogenesis': 1. Alice Bailey's "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" is supposed to give a psychological key to Secret Doctrine, so it may be considered a 'psychogenesis.' It is complete with more Dzian Stanzas and extensive explanations. 2. Also, it is worth noting that another piece of Secret Doctrine called Theogenesis has been published under that title by the Temple of the People. It includes additional Dzian Stanzas thus filling a gap in HPB's "Secret Doctrine," but explanations are not detailed enough; it is to be read in conjunction with another publication by the Temple entitled "Teachings of the Temple" in 3 vols. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 21 01:05:54 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Castaneda In-Reply-To: <960720222554_76400.1474_HHL57-8@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re Castaneda's books: It is interesting to know what people think about them, but I presume for theosophists it's immensely more important to ask what's their importance for the planetary evolution. The theosophical motto suggests "there is no religion higher than truth" rather than "there is no religion higher than my personal opinion." Max From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 01:13:22 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 21:13:22 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Linking with Psychogenesis - Genetics Message-Id: <960721011322_74024.3352_BHT207-1@CompuServe.COM> Richard: apart from our general agreement that some sort of developed "theosophical apprehension" may also be necessary to approach subjects like reincarnation, I am not sure we are linked beyond that. For example: I am not sure what he means by the following: "We must reach to another level that we now only intuit as the intuitional or atma-buddhic level. It is here that reincarnation makes sense. You have to play our the implicate order (DNA/cosmic coding) through succesive explicate/material/earth-lives orders." Keith: I am not sure what I mean either, to tell the truth, which is probably not a surprise ;-) I guess what I was getting a is t that your can't measure a spritually framed idea as reincarnation with a thermometer (physical instrument), Rosharch test (emotional response instrument), IQ test (inteligence measuring instrument), or particle accelarator (sub-atomic measuring instrument). We fall back on the only measuring instrument we have which is our intuition, buddhi-manas, third eye or whatever you want to call it. We can never know about something like reincarnation unless we go to an appropriate instrument which measure that level, vibration, or organizing structure of reality. Its a taxonomny problem. This instrument is provided free of charge, so to speak by the DNA coding that replicated the human with the seven bodies. The charge, I guess, is that we must develop these instruments over many lives until we can get clear enough on what is real (?!) and on what level. Our physcial senses do a really good job of getting around the physical world, I wouldn't blindfold myself and depend on my intuition or buddhi-manas to get me home safely while driving a car. I need my arms and ears even if they structure a limited perspective as illusion, it is a necessary illusion, an appropriate illusion and all the better by not cluttering my mind with spiritual "noise" while I am in the passing lane at 70 miles an hour. We sharpen the practicality of our senses by practice ( typing for example) and maybe we sharpen our spiritualitiy by practice of another sort. The idea of a Zen archer is an attempt to merge the two levels. As far as being linked, I think Richard and I are probably very closely linked on the reincarnation issue and I look forward to his post on his "Psychogenesis". I think we are all linked to some degree by our concern for theosohpy. I don't think we have to be in exact SYNCH however. I think this we have done in past lifetimes, perhaps focing or being forced to accept a common canon of scripture and religious practice for the sake of the community. We did that very effectively before. I am not sure if I was a Spanish Inquisitor or got burned at the stake for sorcery/witchcraft. but I cannot stand someone oppresively forcing their spiritual ideas on me even if it is done out of "love" and to "save my soul so we can be together with Jesus for all eternity". Not this lifetime anyway! (shallow laugh, sigh) I am not sure, but the way I think Richard and I are linked is in our desire and willingness to forward from a theosphical perspective into the future, expanding and enlivening it, rather that being linked to the past, no matter how glorious and valuable. Being linked to the past, doesn't make everyone in sync either, since we all have a differnt subjective perspective on the supposedly objective past. Not sinking into past synch, but linking toward the future brink ( no I haven't been drinking) :) Namaste Keith Price And as to my side, I am not sure Keith would want to go so far as to join me in regarding the understanding of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis as ~consolation prizes~. Guessing from the passage quoted from Paul above, one might not think that Paul regarded Cosmogenesis as one of the consolation-prize branches of the Principal Theosophical Philosophy (~PTP~) either. Indeed, one could almost read it as meaning that theosophical knowledge about the origin and evolution of physical reality is the "baby" and that knowledge about the possible translifetime and psychogenetic transformations of humanity is the "bathwater." No, I'll bet Paul didn't quite mean that. Still, there is a good chance he, also, may not be ready to join me in the assertion that the laborious study of HPB's Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis may almost be thought of as merely going after the consolation prizes. But why such an assertion to begin with? Simple: because perhaps the only part of the PTP which has much to do with developing Adeptship is ~Psychogenesis~. From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 01:14:21 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 21:14:21 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Psychogenesis - Tell us more Message-Id: <960721011420_74024.3352_BHT207-2@CompuServe.COM> Now, I think I have some bad news for any new "Messenger" waiting in the wings: You will not be able to "invent" ~Psychogenesis~ from scratch. It is already a principal component of THE SECRET DOCTRINE and related writings. HPB simply did not name it as such. When she talks about ~Manvantara~, ~Fohat~ etc., she is talking Cosmogenesis; when she talks about Rounds, Root-Races etc., she is talking Anthropogenesis; however, when she talks about ~kama-manas~, higher/lower ego etc. she is simply talking Psychogenesis without bothering to categorize it with a separate term. Richard: No, while I have some serious doubts that she had a complete grasp on the sequential ("psychomaturational") pattern the ~I am~ follows as its new possibilities for egoic delusions unfold, I have no doubt whatever that when HPB was talking consciousness, she was talking Psychogenesis. And as compared with Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis, at least you can ~do~ something with a little understanding of Psychogenesis. For starters, you can learn to recognize both your own and other people's egoic ("semi-Self") indulgences; thus, you can avoid many mistakes resulting from some "ego-of-the-moment"--your own or someone else's--trying to gain ascendancy over other egos-of-the-moment in a similar "strata" of differentiated consciousness. In short, an understanding of Psychogenesis can help you in the Actual Work. Keith: This is a very exciting insight and it seems we are further "linked" by our desire to apply some things a la the Celestine Prophecy approach concerning people draining each other spirititual by ego games of dominance, passivity, withdrawl, anger and manipulations of all kinds. Please explain this concept and how your saw it in the SD. I think we relate to people on each of the seven levels, but tend to control them basically by fear and intimidation and some people like management types are very good at this. Yet we need a psychological defense so that we are constantly being vampirized of our spiritual energy without are consent and mutual replenishment. Namaste Keith From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 01:14:42 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 21:14:42 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Response to Jerry S on Purity/Theos Message-Id: <960721011442_74024.3352_BHT207-3@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Purity and theosophy > Without the descent into matter, there can >be no spiritual self-consciousness, no lessons of love and hate, >pain and bliss, knowledge and ignorance. This may be the "party line," Keith, but I believe that this is simply not true. There are lots of spiritual entities who know about love, and who have no need of incarnating. Jerry's Rule: We reincarnate because we want to, not because we have to. Jerry S. Member, I think this is another of the core beliefs that might be considered and I am sure working on my 'take" on this rationalization for all the suffering, pain and unfairness of the world, not to mention all the sentient beings with nothing better to do than run around and eat each other so they can breed and make more entities that run around and eat each other ..... Yeah, Chuck, NATURAL BORN KILLERS has theosophical and philisophical overtones in a satiriacal sort of way, it says that giving people a "second chance to transform" is only inviting more devolution all around (killing) as this is the karma serial killer and hard core criminals bring with them in order to teach us, that though it is possible to be totally selfish, that is not really the way to go. Here I am doing it again, putting it all in a "feel good" context that behin the darkest act lies a silver karmic lession! I assume Jerry that you are referring to Enochian type angels, or Kabalisticc sepiroth who are in the archetypal world and are a direct face of Ain Soph and that these angelic beings have never been tainted by negativity on the lowest material plane. They have never fallen and are unmoved by sensuality as the demons are attracted. Could be! I would like to think there is so reason for us to go through all of this (life) besides learning that we really don't want to be going through all of this! Namaste Keith Price From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 21 01:22:16 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:22:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga In-Reply-To: <199607202228.AAA23629@mail.euronet.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Martin_Euser wrote: > Bee: > > You stated that there doesn't exist > a TS yoga. This is a bit to my amazement. In fact, there are several > powerful exercises of a Raja Yoga type which are being practiced by > some people (theosophists and non-theosophists) I know (I practice these > exercises too). Martin, I belong to the school of thought in theosophy that believes that first things should come first. First contact with one's Higher Self, and then--as a natural outcome of the contact--a lot of wonderful things like intuition, siddhis, and so forth. So for me and for some others in the theosophical movement the main criterion to judge wheter or not a TS yoga exists, is to see if theosophy offers any means of making the contact. This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where it properly belongs. Max From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 23:08:41 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:08:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Answers ... In-Reply-To: <31F090AB.59B1@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <31F090AB.59B1@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >I am concerned for these folk that come asking >and I have no real TS answer for them apart from suggesting a book or else >doing it my way which isn't guaranteed to be the answer either but I figure I >am at least trying. IMHO Bee, if you pass on to them the experience you have gained from doing it your way you can help them perhaps more than the books? If they have a problem, you will probably have had it yourself, and can offer real help. Just my 2 cents (NZ) worth :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 20 23:09:16 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:09:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: summer school day 3 In-Reply-To: <960720074753_160342836@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960720074753_160342836@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Bless you. > >Chuck the Heretic "A-tishoo!" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 01:49:55 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:49:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Purity and theosophy In-Reply-To: <960720222553_76400.1474_HHL57-7@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960720222553_76400.1474_HHL57-7@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >Theosophists are as prudish (and wrong) today >as they were last century. *Some* theosophists, I hope you mean! > > Jerry S. > Members, TI How very plural of you! :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 01:54:01 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:54:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Descent into matter In-Reply-To: <960720222543_76400.1474_HHL57-4@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960720222543_76400.1474_HHL57-4@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >> Without the descent into matter, there can >>be no spiritual self-consciousness, no lessons of love and hate, >>pain and bliss, knowledge and ignorance. > > This may be the "party line," Keith, but I believe that >this is simply not true. There are lots of spiritual entities >who know about love, and who have no need of incarnating. >Jerry's Rule: We reincarnate because we want to, not because >we have to. What do you think about the notion (which I entertain seriously from time to time) that we may (re)incarnate quite by accident? Suppose, let us say, that one of the spiritual entities you mention got a bit too close to what is often called the "earth plane" and got sucked in? And are we not all spiritual entitities to begin with? .. etc., etc. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 01:57:45 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:57:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: SEX In-Reply-To: <960720222541_76400.1474_HHL57-3@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960720222541_76400.1474_HHL57-3@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >Activation of spiritual forces almost always >charges the Root Center (muladhara) and Sex Center (svadhisthana) >and one becomes sexy in spite of oneself. This is why gurus tend >to get into sexual trouble. Its how we handle such phenomena that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >count. And repression is not an option. ^^^^^^ And this is true of all serious occult work. As the old song says: "It's not what you do but the way that you do it." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 20 04:41:14 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:41:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607200441.AAA04025@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Voices of the Silence on-line hi - Thanks to Jim Meier the Voice of the Silence is now available in ascii to THEOS-L subscribers (and anyone else). to retrieve it send an e-mail messahe to listserv@vnet.net containing the lines: get theos-L vos.txt get theos-L vosglos.txt you will receive in your e-mail the VOS as well as the Glossary. I want to really thank Jim Meier for his valuable help!! peace - john e. mead p.s. send any errors to myself at jem@vnet.net From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 20 04:51:58 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607200451.AAA04396@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS errors hi - any errors found in the on-line version of VOS are probably my fault. please direcy them to me. peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 18:44:02 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 14:44:02 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE OF THE SILENCE - Text - Section 1 Message-Id: <960720184401_74024.3352_BHT104-1@CompuServe.COM> Thanks to Jim M. for retrieving this for theos-roots discussion from a web site. Best wishes to all as we listen to the Voice of the Silence by HPB. - I am also sending this to theos-l as it is a good advertisement for the discussion on theos-roots, theos-l, theosophy and Blavatsky. How will people who haven't read Blavatsky know if they might be interested? Could it hurt anyone to read it? It is BLavatsky! -Keith THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE is in about 8 parts, counting Glossaries and forward. Section I is attached to this post THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE AND OTHER CHOSEN FRAGMENTS FROM THE BOOK OF THE GOLDEN PRECEPTS. FOR THE DAILY USE OF LANOOS (DISCIPLES) ______ TRANSLATED AND ANNOTATED BY "H. P. B." ______ NEW YORK. THEOSOPHICAL PUBLISHING CO. 244 LENOX AVENUE. ______ LONDON. KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH, TRUBNER & CO. DRYDEN HOUSE, 43 GERRARD ST. Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1889, in the office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington, D.C. BY H. P. BLAVATSKY. DEDICATED TO THE FEW. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. [i] PREFACE. THE following pages are derived from the Book of the Golden Precepts, one of the works put into the hands of mystic students in the East. The knowledge of them is obligatory in that School, the teachings of which are accepted by many Theosophists. Therefore, as I know many of these Precepts by heart, the work of translating has been relatively an easy task for me. It is well known that, in India, the methods of psychic development differ with the Gurus (teachers or masters), not only because of their belonging to different Schools of Philosophy, of which there are six, but because every Guru has his own system, which he generally keeps very secret. But beyond the Himalayas the method in the Esoteric Schools does not differ, unless the Guru is simply a Lama, but little more learned than those he teaches. The work from which I here translate forms part of the same series as that from which the "Stanzas " of the Book of Dzyan were taken, on which the Secret Doctrine is based. Together with the great mystic work called Paramartha, which, the legend of Nagarjuna tells us, was delivered to the great Arhat by the Nagas or "Serpents" (in truth a name given to the ancient Initiates), the Book of the Golden Precepts claims the same origin. Yet its maxims and ideas, however noble and original, are often found under different forms in Sanskrit [ii] works, such as the Dnyaneshvari, that superb mystic treatise in which Krishna describes to Arjuna in glowing colors the condition of a fully illumined Yogi; and again in certain Upanishads. This is but natural, since most, if not all, of the greatest Arhats, the first followers of Gautama Buddha, were Hindus and Aryans, not Mongolians, especially those who emigrated into Tibet. The works left by Aryasangha alone are very numerous. The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblongs; copies very often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called "contemplative" or Mahayana (Yogacharya) Schools are established. They are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs. The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colors, each of which corresponds to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple and seventy-four compound letters), thus forming a complete cryptographic alphabet. When the ideographs are used there is a definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and signs used in astrology, namely, the twelve zodiacal animals and the seven primary colors, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the primary, and the dark - stand for the thirty-three letters of the simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled [iii] with the five elements and the seven colors, furnish a whole alphabet composed of sixty sacred letters and twelve signs. A sign placed at the beginning of the text determines whether the reader has to spell it according to the Indian mode, when every word is simply a Sanskrit adaptation, or according to the Chinese principle of reading the ideographs. The easiest way, however, is that which allows the reader to use no special, or any language he likes, as the signs and symbols were, like the Arabian numerals or figures, common and international property among initiated mystics and their followers. The same peculiarity is characteristic of one of the Chinese modes of writing, which can be read with equal facility by anyone acquainted with the character: for instance, a Japanese can read it in his own language as readily as a Chinaman in his. The Book of the Golden Precepts - some of which are pre-Buddhistic while others belong to a later date - contains about ninety distinct little treatises. Of these I learned thirty-nine by heart, years ago. To translate the rest, I should have to resort to notes scattered among a too large number of papers and memoranda collected for the last twenty years and never put in order, to make of it by any means an easy task. Nor could they be all translated and given to a world too selfish and too much attached to objects of sense to be in any way prepared to receive such exalted ethics in the right spirit. For, unless a man perseveres seriously in the pursuit of self-knowledge, he will never lend a willing ear to advice of this nature. [iv] And yet such ethics fill volumes upon volumes in Eastern literature, especially in the Upanishads. "Kill out all desire of life", says Krishna to Arjuna. That desire lingers only in the body, the vehicle of the embodied Self, not in the SELF which is "eternal, indestructible, which kills not nor is it killed". (Kathopanishad.) "Kill out sensation", teaches Sutta Nipata; "look alike on pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat". Again, "Seek shelter in the eternal alone" (ibid). "Destroy the sense of separateness", repeats Krishna under every form. "The Mind (Manas) which follows the rambling senses, makes the Soul (Buddhi) as helpless as the boat which the wind leads astray upon the waters". (Bhagavad Gita, II.) Therefore it has been thought better to make a judicious selection only from those treatises which will best suit the few real mystics in the Theosophical Society, and which are sure to answer their needs. It is only these who will appreciate these words of Krishna-Christos, the "Higher Self": "Sages do not grieve for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be". --Bhagavad Gita, II. In this translation, I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of language and imagery which characterizes the original. How far this effort has been successful, is for the reader to judge. "H.P.B." 1889. [1] FRAGMENT I. ________ THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. THESE instructions are for those ignorant of the dangers of the lower IDDHI.(1). ________ He who would hear the voice of Nada,(2) the "Soundless Sound", and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana.(3) Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the Rajah of the [2] senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. For- When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE - the inner sound which kills the outer. Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, to come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the Soul can see, the harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden firefly. [3] Before the Soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united, just as the form to which the clay is modelled is first united with the potter's mind. For then the Soul will hear, and will remember. And then to the inner ear will speak- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, And say: If thy Soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy Soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy Soul weeps inside her castle of illusion; if thy Soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER; (4) know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding Soul (5) lends ear; when to the roaring voice of the [4] Great Illusion thy Soul responds; (6) when frightened at the sight of the hot tears of pain, when deafened by the cries of distress, thy Soul withdraws like the shy turtle within the carapace of SELFHOOD, learn, O Disciple, of her Silent "God" thy Soul is an unworthy shrine. When waxing stronger, thy Soul glides forth from her secure retreat; and breaking loose from the protecting shrine, extends her silver thread and rushes onward; when beholding her image on the waves of Space she whispers, "This is I"- declare, O Disciple, that thy Soul is caught in the webs of delusion. (7) This earth, Disciple, is the Hall of Sorrow, wherein are set along the Path of dire probations, traps to ensnare thy EGO by the delusion called "Great Heresy". (8) This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light - that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. [5] Saith the Great Law: "In order to become the KNOWER of ALL SELF, (9) thou hast first of SELF to be the knower". To reach the knowledge of that SELF, thou hast to give up Self to Non-Self, Being to Non-Being, and then thou canst repose between the wings of the GREAT BIRD. Aye, sweet is rest between the wings of that which is not born, nor dies, but is the AUM (10) throughout eternal ages. (11) Bestride the Bird of Life, if thou would'st know. (12) Give up thy life, if thou would'st live. (13) Three Halls, O weary Pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, [6] will bring thee through three states (14) into the fourth, (15) and thence into the seven Worlds, (16) the Worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE - Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou first saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. (17) The name of Hall the second is the Hall of LEARNING.* {The Hall of Probationary Learning.} In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. (18) [7] The name of the third Hall is WISDOM, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience (19). If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the sunlight of life. If thou would'st cross the second safely, stop not the fragrance of its stupefying blossoms to inhale. If freed thou would'st be from the karmic chains, seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions. The WISE ONES tarry not in pleasure-grounds of senses. The WISE ONES heed not the sweet-tongued voices of illusion. Seek for him who is to give thee birth, (20) in the Hall of Wisdom, the Hall which lies beyond, wherein all shadows are unknown, and where the light of truth shines with unfading glory. [8] That which is uncreate abides in thee, Disciple, as it abides in that Hall. If thou would'st reach it and blend the two, thou must divest thyself of thy dark garments of illusion. Stifle the voice of flesh, allow no image of the senses to get between its light and thine, that thus the twain may blend in one. And having learnt thine own Ajnyana, (21) flee from the Hall of Learning. This Hall is dangerous in its perfidious beauty, is needed but for thy probation. Beware, Lanoo, lest dazzled by illusive radiance thy Soul should linger and be caught in its deceptive light. This light shines from the jewel of the Great Ensnarer, (Mara). (22) The senses it bewitches, blinds the mind, and leaves the unwary an abandoned wreck. The moth attracted to the dazzling flame of thy night-lamp is doomed to perish in the viscid [9] oil. The unwary Soul that fails to grapple with the mocking demon of illusion, will return to earth the slave of Mara. Behold the Hosts of Souls. Watch how they hover o'er the stormy sea of human life, and how, exhausted, bleeding, broken-winged, they drop one after other on the swelling waves. Tossed by the fierce winds, chased by the gale, they drift into the eddies and disappear within the first great vortex. If through the Hall of Wisdom thou would'st reach the Vale of Bliss, Disciple, close fast thy senses against the great dire heresy of Separateness that weans thee from the rest. Let not thy "Heaven-Born", merged in the sea of Maya, break from the Universal Parent (SOUL), but let the fiery power retire into the inmost chamber, the chamber of the Heart, (23) and the abode of the World's Mother. (24) [10] Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE- SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice. 'Tis only then thou canst become a "Walker of the Sky," (25) who treads the winds above the waves, whose step touches not the waters. Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD* {The Higher SELF.} in seven manners. The first is like the nightingale's sweet voice chanting a song of parting to its mate. The second comes as the sound of a silver cymbal of the Dhyanis, awakening the twinkling stars. The next is as the plaint melodious of the ocean-sprite imprisoned in its shell. [11] And this is followed by the chant of Vina (26). The fifth like sound of bamboo-flute shrills in thine ear. It changes next into a trumpet-blast. The last vibrates like the dull rumbling of a thunder-cloud. The seventh swallows all the other sounds. They die, and then are heard no more. When the six (27) are slain and at the Master's feet are laid, then is the pupil merged into the ONE (28), becomes that ONE and lives therein. Before that path is entered, thou must destroy thy lunar body, (29) cleanse thy mind-body, (30) and make clean thy heart. [12] Eternal life's pure waters, clear and crystal, with the monsoon tempest's muddy torrents cannot mingle. Heaven's dew-drop glittering in the morn's first sunbeam within the bosom of the lotus, when dropped on earth becomes a piece of clay; behold, the pearl is now a speck of mire. Strive with thy thoughts unclean before they over-power thee. Use them as they will thee, for if thou sparest them and they take root and grow, know well these thoughts will overpower and kill thee. Beware, Disciple, suffer not, e'en though it be their shadow, to approach. For it will grow, increase in size and power, and then this thing of darkness will absorb thy being before thou hast well realized the black foul monster's presence. Before the "mystic Power" (31)* {Kundalin=EE, the "Serpent Power," or mystic fire.} can make of thee a God, Lanoo, thou must have gained the faculty to slay thy lunar form at will. [13] The Self of Matter and the SELF of Spirit can never meet. One of the twain must disappear; there is no place for both. Ere thy Soul's mind can understand, the bud of personality must be crushed out; the worm of sense destroyed past resurrection. Thou canst not travel on the Path before thou hast become that Path itself. (32) Let thy Soul lend its ear to every cry of pain like as the lotus bares its heart to drink the morning sun. Let not the fierce Sun dry one tear of pain before thyself hast wiped it from the sufferer's eye. But let each burning human tear drop on thy heart and there remain; nor ever brush it off until the pain that caused it is removed. [14] These tears, O thou of heart most merciful, these are the streams that irrigate the fields of charity immortal. 'Tis on such soil that grows the midnight blossom of Buddha, (33) more difficult to find, more rare to view, than is the flower of the Vogay tree. It is the seed of freedom from rebirth. It isolates the Arhat both from strife and lust, it leads him through the fields of Being unto the peace and bliss known only in the land of Silence and Non-Being. Kill out desire; but if thou killest it, take heed lest from the dead it should again arise. Kill love of life; but if thou slayest Tanha,(34) let this not be for thirst of life eternal, but to replace the fleeting by the everlasting. Desire nothing. Chafe not at Karma, nor at Nature's changeless laws. But struggle only with the personal, the transitory, the evanescent, and the perishable. Help Nature and work on with her; and Nature will regard thee as one of her creators and make obeisance. [15] And she will open wide before thee the portals of her secret chambers, lay bare before thy gaze the treasures hidden in the very depths of her pure virgin bosom. Unsullied by the hand of Matter, she shows her treasures only to the eye of Spirit- the eye which never closes, the eye for which there is no veil in all her kingdoms. Then will she show thee the means and way, the first gate and the second, the third, up to the very seventh. And then, the goal; beyond which lie, bathed in the sunlight of the Spirit, glories untold, unseen by any save the eye of Soul. There is but one road to the Path; at its very end alone the Voice of the Silence can be heard. The ladder by which the candidate ascends is formed of rungs of suffering and pain; these can be silenced only by the voice of virtue. Woe, then, to thee, Disciple, if there is one single vice thou hast not left behind; for then the ladder will give way and overthrow thee; its foot rests in the deep mire of thy sins and failings, and ere thou canst attempt to cross this wide abyss of matter thou hast to lave thy feet in Waters of Renunciation. Beware lest thou [16] should'st set a foot still soiled upon the ladder's lowest rung. Woe unto him who dares pollute one rung with miry feet. The foul and viscous mud will dry, become tenacious, then glue his feet unto the spot; and like a bird caught in the wily fowler's lime, he will be stayed from further progress. His vices will take shape and drag him down. His sins will raise their voices like as the jackal's laugh and sob after the sun goes down; his thoughts become an army, and bear him off a captive slave. Kill thy desires, Lanoo, make thy vices impotent, ere the first step is taken on the solemn journey. Strangle thy sins, and make them dumb for ever, before thou dost lift one foot to mount the ladder. Silence thy thoughts and fix thy whole attention on thy Master, whom yet thou dost not see, but whom thou feelest. Merge into one sense thy senses, if thou would'st be secure against the foe. 'Tis by that sense alone which lies concealed within the hollow of thy brain, that the steep path [17] which leadeth to thy Master may be disclosed before thy Soul's dim eyes. Long and weary is the way before thee, O Disciple. One single thought about the past that thou hast left behind, will drag thee down and thou wilt have to start the climb anew. Kill in thyself all memory of past experiences. Look not behind or thou art lost. Do not believe that lust can ever be killed out if gratified or satiated, for this is an abomination inspired by Mara. It is by feeding vice that it expands and waxes strong, like to the worm that fattens on the blossom's heart. The rose must re-become the bud, born of its parent stem before the parasite has eaten through its heart and drunk its life-sap. The golden tree puts forth its jewel-buds before its trunk is withered by the storm. The Pupil must regain the child-state he has lost 'ere the first sound can fall upon his ear. The light from the ONE MASTER, the one unfading light of Spirit, shoots its effulgent [18] beams on the Disciple from the very first. Its rays thread through the thick, dark clouds of Matter. Now here, now there, these rays illumine it, like sun-sparks light the earth through the thick foliage of the jungle growth. But, O Disciple, unless the flesh is passive, head cool, the Soul as firm and pure as flaming diamond, the radiance will not reach the chamber (23), its sunlight will not warm the heart, nor will the mystic sounds of the akasic heights (35) reach the ear, however eager, at the initial stage. Unless thou hear'st, thou canst not see. Unless thou see'st, thou canst not hear. To hear and see, this is the second stage. . . . . . . . . When the Disciple sees and hears, and when he smells and tastes, eyes closed, ears shut, with mouth and nostrils stopped; when the four senses blend and ready are to pass into the fifth, that of the inner touch - then into stage the fourth he hath passed on. [19] And in the fifth, O slayer of thy thoughts, all these again have to be killed beyond re=E4nimation. (36) Withhold thy mind from all external objects, all external sights. Withhold internal images, lest on thy Soul-light a dark shadow they should cast. Thou art now in DHARANA, (37) the sixth stage. When thou hast passed into the seventh, O happy one, thou shalt perceive no more the sacred Three, (38) for thou shalt have become that Three thyself. Thyself and mind, like twins upon a line, the star which is thy goal [20] burns overhead (39). The Three that dwell in glory and in bliss ineffable, now in the World of Maya have lost their names. They have become one star, the fire that burns but scorches not, that fire which is the Upadhi (40) of the Flame. And this, O Yog=EE of success, is what men call Dhyana, (41) the right precursor of Samadhi. (42) And now thy Self is lost in SELF, Thyself unto THYSELF, merged in THAT SELF from which thou first didst radiate. Where is thy individuality, Lanoo, where the Lanoo himself? It is the spark lost in the fire, [21] the drop within the ocean, the ever-present ray become the All and the eternal radiance. And now, Lanoo, thou art the doer and the witness, the radiator and the radiation, Light in the Sound, and the Sound in the Light. Thou art acquainted with the five impediments, O blessed one. Thou art their conqueror, the Master of the sixth, deliverer of the four modes of Truth. (43) The light that falls upon them shines from thyself, O thou who wast Disciple, but art Teacher now. And of these modes of Truth- Hast thou not passed through knowledge of all misery - truth the first? Hast thou not conquered the Maras' King at Tsi, the portal of assembling - truth the second? (44). [22] Hast thou not sin at the third gate destroyed, and truth the third attained? Hast thou not entered Tau, the "Path" that leads to knowledge - the fourth truth? (45). And now, rest 'neath the Bodhi tree, which is perfection of all knowledge, for, know, thou art the Master of SAMADHI - the state of faultless vision. Behold! thou hast become the Light, thou hast become the Sound, thou art thy Master and thy God. Thou art THYSELF the object of thy search: the VOICE unbroken, that resounds throughout eternities, exempt from change, from sin exempt, the Seven Sounds in one, THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. OM TAT SAT. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2: to follow next week to theos-roots and NOT to theos-l Namaste - KP From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 23:52:53 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 19:52:53 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: SOUNDLESS SOUND Message-Id: <960720235253_74024.3352_BHT182-1@CompuServe.COM> HPB: ________ He who would hear the voice of Nada,(2) the "Soundless Sound", and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana.(3) Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the Rajah of the [2] senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. Keith: Jim, or someone can you upload a glossary for the Sanskrit terms. I am cofused about Dharana, is it Dharma or what? Nada is another one for me. We are already getting into an opposition between the senses and the mind, as opposed to the REAL. I think "slay the slayer" is a borrowed quote. What about make the sense and Mind servant too, messenger of, and vehicle for the REAL? I will meditate on these quotations from VOS. Soundless Sound seems to be hinting at the intuition perceiving the Real (introverted consciousness), as opposed to the senses perceiving the Illusory (because the senses produce a faulty image reconstruced by the Thought-producer (extroverted consciousness). What is transparent to both, the introverted and extroverted attitude? Jung called it the transcended function which provides sudden answers and help in the most depressing and tragic circumstance. The VOICE OF THE SILENCE might be similar to the transcendent function or the voice of the Holy Spirit (Greek pneuma) in the Christian tradition. Namaste Namaste From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 23:53:22 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 19:53:22 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: SOURCES OF VOS Message-Id: <960720235321_74024.3352_BHT182-2@CompuServe.COM> Although I said I wasn't interested in historical issues, I did say I would do what I wanted so: Blavatsky : The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblongs; copies very often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called "contemplative" or Mahayana (Yogacharya) Schools are established. They are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs. The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colors, each of which corresponds to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple and seventy-four compound letters), thus forming a complete cryptographic alphabet. When the ideographs are used there is a definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and signs used in A S T R O L O G Y [caps mine] namely, the twelve zodiacal animals and the seven primary colors, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the primary, and the dark - stand for the thirty-three letters of the simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled [iii] with the five elements and the seven colors . . . Keith: I have long thought that the sacradotal language called Senzar by HPB was a blind for astrological symbolism combined with hints from the sacred art, poetry, literature, scriptures and even MUSIC gleaned from her travel and research(notice all the talk about SOUNDS (Nada, AUM chant/mantra etc). She does do her "thing" at the beginning by buttressing her authority by claiming physical sources, yet she allows herself an out and personal responsibility by claiming it rephrased in her own VOICE for our ears, so to speak. Nevertheless, her format creates a since of importance and expectancy in this reader for one Namaste From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 20 23:53:44 1996 Date: 20 Jul 96 19:53:44 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE DISCUSSION SUGGESTIONS Message-Id: <960720235343_74024.3352_BHT182-3@CompuServe.COM> I think we should agree on some guidelines, although everyone is free to do what they want, of course, and no doubt will, as I know I will as the Voice speaks to me. Suggestions: 1. Read a section as divided by uploading format each week. If some feel that there is a better way to divide the uploads for study, please make a suggestion and consider uploading these. 2. Meditate deeply on the aphorisms or precepts that really speak to you and your HIGHER SELF. 3. Consider meditating before going to bed and after waking up in the morning on a short fragment so that there is a connection beyond critical analysis. 4. Consider applying something in your life each day, or listen to your Voice and see if it helps you with some everyday issue (and bring it back to the group for discussion). 5. Feel free to add historical notes of interest and biographical insights from HPB's life (although, personally I hope this isn't the focus). 6. Start posting anytime and as much as you want! Let the Voice of the Silence speak in you! Keith Price From liesel@dreamscape.com Sun Jul 21 13:50:24 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:50:24 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607211456.KAA20009@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Occult Chemistry >To: liesel@dreamscape.com >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:28:18 +0300 >From: Kay Ziatz >Reply-To: Kay Ziatz >Errors-To: Kay_Ziatz@p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org >Subject: Occult Chemistry > > Hello! > >L> there are 3 editions of "Occult Chemistry". > Indeed. But I didn't know that they differ in size. Last edition >by J. is completely revised, so I wouldn't trust him much - he >wasn't a clairvoyant, afaik. > >L> I'll send you something else theosophical which you can use. > Well. Btw, I'm planning to send you more cassetes - with ukrainian >music & more jazz. 1 or 2 things on the cassete you already received >are american - western music widely performed in USSR till the late >1940s. > >L> Is jazz being composed in Russia now? > Yes, but this nowdays' jazz is worse from my point of view. >It's "experimental" & "avanteguard". Our most talented contemporary >composer Kuroehin (note o umlaut here) died recently from heart attack. >I've included to next cassete I planning to send some pieces of music >recorded in 60-70s. But now, last 10 years, our jazz & rock music (and >most other arts) are in stagnation. Artists & musicians themselves don't >think so, but it's my "consumer's" point of view. I myslelf prefer rock >music of 60s-70s & jazz of 20s-50s (i.e. Lunceford, British dance orches- >tras like Gibbons' & Ambrose's, etc.) > >L> may play the Jazz tape to some of the old ladies here. They'd love it. >BTW, there's a special corporation in England which specializes >in old jazz music. > Conifer ltd., Horton Road, West Drayton, Middlesex, UB7 8JL UK. > Ph. (0895) 447707 >They traded by mail (but my info is for 1988). >Anyway, maybe yr. friends will be interested. > >L> country (but me too, even though I'm older) talk about a goddess which >ruled >I've heard about this, but forgot the source. > >L> What town is your sister in. > Lancing, Michigan. > >L> Does she like it here? > Sometimes yes, sometimes no. She (and most other russians) dislike >US meal products. Tomatoes, strawberry has no taste at all, she writes. >Only "shelled" fruits i.e. oranges, bananas have satisfactory taste. >Climat disturbs her, too. Too windy all the winter. She lived in >Siberia before, where often happens a frost -30-40 C, but it doesn't >affect as much as wet wind from lakes. > >L> of houses are ususally thin in this country. ometimes you can hear your >L> neighbor's voices. >Here it occures, too. But "capital" walls (i.e. external) are thick. >They keep cool at summer without coolers. > >L> I can't tell what I meant by that. >L> Do you still have the whole sentence? >Yes: > >the mute button on the remote control. I've seen wriglery spearmint >airplane >?>advertising. Just now, ours on TV usually revolve around a set of twins, >for > >some reason. The big thing they advertise on our TV a lot right now are > >With best regards, Konstantin. > > > From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Sun Jul 21 22:05:43 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:05:43 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Attn: TI Members Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi there ... have begun programming the TI Home Page & linked sites - would like to present the Home Page text I've come up with for commentary/criticism by TI members. Have been trying to come up with something with the idea that people who have never heard of TI or Theosophy, but whose inner natures might be looking for such a thing will find attractive. Do comment in any way, from any angle, on any part of the text you wish - this is a *first draft* so don't pull no punches (like anyone here would ... (-:). ********************************************************************* There Is No Religion Higher Than Truth At the Heart of the Many there is One: One Humanity out of which flows a vast profusion of races, cultures and tribes; One Spirit, that unfolds through countless religious and spiritual expressions; One Reality, approached through hundreds of branches of philosophy and science; One Final Goal towards which a huge and diverse variety of different paths of spiritual growth and development strive. It is to Serve that One Humanity, to Discern the footprints of that One Spirit in the many religions, to seek ever deeper understandings of that One Reality, and explore the many paths of spiritual growth and transformation that Theosophy International was formed. It imposes no dogma, requires belief in no creed, nor acceptance of any individual or group's teachings. Nothing but agreement with the Three Objects is required for membership - and it is left completely up to individual conscience and predilections to decide how those Objects will find expression in day to day life. And yet, while liberty of individual conscience, complete freedom of thought and expression, and the responsibility for and pursuit of each person's unique path of spiritual growth and world service is the foundation of Theosophy International, it is more than simply many seperate individuals - it is a forum of free people who have come to understand that that own personal pursuits and service may be greatly encouraged, furthered, and refined through voluntary discourse and relations with people of widely differing perspectives. While some of its members study some of the oldest spiritual traditions on earth, others work at the very cutting edge of modern social, spiritual and scientific thought - and while the driving force behind Theosophy International finds its source in ancient and timeless ideals, it strives to use 21st Century telecommunications technologies to unleash the power of those ideals into modern civilization. The members of Theosophy International invite you to browse this site - consider our Objects, examine the history of Theosophy and the place Theosophy International occupies in that tradition; read a few of the essays contributed by some of its members - and if you like what you see, feel free to contact one of the members listed below with any questions you have, or Join Us as a member. Theosophy International Ancient Wisdom For A New Age __________________________________________________________________ | | | | | The | Join | Contact a | | Three Objects | Theosophy International | TI Member | |____________________|_________________________|___________________| | | | | | The History | Links to other | Theosophy | | of | Theosophical | International | | Theosophy | People & Organizations | Projects & Essays | |____________________|_________________________|___________________| *********************************************************************** [NOTE: As long as I'm at it, how's about some volunteers? We should have (IMO) three or four brave members who will volunteer to allow their email addresses to be placed in the "contact members" link - who will take the time to respond personally to inquiries that come from individuals ... and (probably more difficult (-:) ... anyone feel up to taking shot at writing the "history" link? We need (again, IMO) somthing conscise, non-judgemental ... that connects HPB to ancient theosophers, show the developments in the 20th century ... and that will, in essence, place TI *in context*. We can link to a much longer, detailed history on the "essays" page if that is desired ... but we need (IMO) something only two or three pages long to introduce the thing to people who are browsing through the site quickly - how's about it ... any takers? Regards, -JRC From liesel@dreamscape.com Mon Jul 22 00:11:26 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:11:26 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607220117.VAA12681@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: TI members Dear john, I like what you've got. You can use my e-mail address as a resource person. I've decided to give up making my own home page, but I'm in the process of compiling some of what I wrote on theos-l onto a disk. I eventually (like the 1st of the year) want to print up a booklet of the material. I told Alan he could have the material on a disk for the TI archives, but the TI home page suits me just as well. Hope you get a response. Liesel From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Mon Jul 22 02:12:24 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:12:24 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: TI members In-Reply-To: <199607220117.VAA12681@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > I like what you've got. > > You can use my e-mail address as a resource person. *Excellent* - any other brave volunteers? > I've decided to give up making my own home page, but I'm in the process of > compiling some of what I wrote on theos-l onto a disk. I eventually (like > the 1st of the year) want to print up a booklet of the material. I told Alan > he could have the material on a disk for the TI archives, but the TI home > page suits me just as well. Yes ... in fact I'm hoping that when the link gets up and running the "TI Essays and Projects" page will have links to a few dozen different pieces that will at least partially represent the diversity of thought of the TI membership - do you suppose you could organize what you are doing around one or two "themes" (I'm already thinking of the "Essays" page ... and think the best way to design it would be to have several different themes so visitors could select a theme, then get a page w/ a menu of different online works - both from current TI members as well as (perhaps) other, older materials that are making their way online ... but this is just brainstorming at this point (-:). > Hope you get a response. Boy howdy, me too. Toodles, -JRC From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 22 02:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:31:48 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Welcome! Mime-Version: 1.0 Theosophy International welcomes Kay Ziatz of Russia! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 21 04:51:14 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:51:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960721005114_160740001@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Jerry, The prudishness of our brethren is something of a joke. The only ones who really take that nonsense seriously now are either too old to function or too stupid to figure out the mechanics. In both cases, however, it is nice to have them around because it is so much fun to shock them. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 21 04:51:57 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:51:57 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960721005156_160740295@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Castaneda Jerry, I'll bet that Carl has never forgiven himself for turning Casteneda down. Think of all the money he could have made. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 21 04:52:02 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:52:02 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960721005201_160740321@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice Jerry, the problem is that the purpose of the comparative religion part of the second object has been forgotten. Theosophists study religions not in the foolish expectation that they might have anything to offer, as the masters tell us in Letter 11 that they do not, but rather that we may know the disease before we catch it. Religion is, in all cases, a source of evil. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 21 04:49:52 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:49:52 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960721004950_160740333@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy Renaissance - Incarnated Jerry, I agree with you. Richard Brooks spoke at convention and he has a terrible problem because as a parapsychologist he keeps running into things that contradict the "core teachings." At one point, in a private conversation, he said "But the Masters say otherwise and who am I to contradict them?" I fear that sleep deprivation overwhelmed my usual politeness and I snapped, "You have a brain and you have the evidence. What more do you need?" To paraphrase the old pentecostal, "When doctrine conflicts with experience, you throw out the doctrine." Chuck the Heretic From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sun Jul 21 04:19:09 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 17:19:09 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F1AFBD.513C@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Answers ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <31F090AB.59B1@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown > writes > >I am concerned for these folk that come asking > >and I have no real TS answer for them apart from suggesting a book or else > >doing it my way which isn't guaranteed to be the answer either but I figure I > >am at least trying. > > IMHO Bee, if you pass on to them the experience you have gained from > doing it your way you can help them perhaps more than the books? If > they have a problem, you will probably have had it yourself, and can > offer real help. I do that if I am approached as Bee Brown but I think I have to be more careful as a member of the Lodge. It is not a big city that I live in and the spiritually interested people circulate around most of the groups in town and exchange gossip as well as advice. It wouldn't take long for other members of the Lodge to become aware that I have been dispensing 'theosophical advice' and what sort it is. This list showns just how hard it is to get Theosophists to agree on the teachings so I imagine the same will certainly apply to Lodge members too. If I hit on e.g. Raja-Yoga and draw up the relevant info on it and it becomes known in town that this is the Theosophical method and others come and request some teaching on it, I could be in deep mire because I know some of our members would be very upset. That is not how they see Theosophy. This is why I have asked about an official method approved off by TS to help accessing the higher self. Regards Bee > > Just my 2 cents (NZ) worth :-) > > Alan > --------- > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age > TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html > (Note figure "one" after WWW) From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Wed Jul 21 06:48:31 1993 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:48:31 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <2C4CE6BF.482E@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga References: <199607202228.AAA23629@mail.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin_Euser wrote: > > - simple breathing exercises (this is simply to practice a more wholesome > breathing habit [deeper breathing from belly] - I read about one variant > in Vitvan's writings, but there are other variants. I would have to look > > - Feeling type of exercises > These may not be 'theosophy approved', but there are simple methods > of registering vibrations of sense-impressions without forming > an image in the mind (an automatic habit of the mind). > I found a type of this exercise in Vitvan's writings together with > other valuable exercises, most of which are connected to forming new > patterns of identification (and unlearning old habits) regarding > the energy-consciousness behind sense impressions. > If you are interested in all this stuff I can give you references > as where to find this information. > Could you please point me to the exact title where this things can be found. I got the Vitvan's URL but I just can't seam to find it since there is so much stuff. Thank you Ozren From mikap@dlc.fi Sun Jul 21 05:49:18 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:49:18 -0700 From: mika perdld Message-Id: <31F1C4DE.51CB@dlc.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: TS-yoga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Bee and Martin for your comments. I am sure that there is lots of practises one could do for spiritual growth, but I do not think TS offers anything for me as a community where I could do these things together with others. I surely would need it for support and guidance. Alone its just drifting here and there. I am not interested in any kind of seremonies which are often offered to me here (LCC and freemason and whatever costume party) and our Blavatsky Lodge members here tells me I should meditate 2 hours a day and tell the mind to shut up cause I should be the boss. What kind of advice is that!?! It seems (again) that if I want somethin new to happen around here I must do it myself. Probblem is who is going to teach ME first? Someone out of the TS I suppose. By the way, I noticed that my use of finnish keyboard makes my messages look bit funny - must avoid some of the characters. And my surname is Perala (with dots onthe both of a-letters). I would appreciate if you Martin would give some more information about that Vitvan fellow. Mika From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Mon Oct 21 10:46:27 1996 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:46:27 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961022045843.1f475e08@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Core Teachings Bee, responding to Kim, wrote: > >I don't see the problem as core versus others. I'm inclined to agree. This is one I've been wanting to take part in for some time, but I've been out of town a lot the last 6 weeks and haven't been able to keep up with the list reading, let alone writing. I think the analytical separation between "core" and "other" that has been developing on this list for a while has only a limited value and too often gets to cloud the issues. I believe, first, that there IS a need to try and decide what is "core" theosophy, but that there are at least two levels to this, one more permanent and archetypal, and one depending on the context. As an example of the latter, if you were designing a study course on theosophy, you would decide what were the key ideas and how you would express them to your expected audience. You'd have made a decision as to what was "core" in this context, and because it's a teaching situation in the 20th century, the intellectual component would probably predominate. This level of the core question is intimately tied up with the perceived purpose of the Theosophical Society today, and I believe this purpose has a large dimension of teaching in its broadest sense which, in keeping with the spirit of the 2nd and 3rd Objects of the Society, has lots of encouragement of learning and discovery and downplays codification and regimentation. Lectures and classes would be somewhere in between. We need to remember that theosophy as taught and written about is very much in a historical and evolutionary context. Some ideas are absolutely "core" to everybody's lives, like gravity and various principles of motion, but because they are commonplace, the TS does not need to encourage their discovery; other organizations would probably teach them better and people wouldn't come to the TS to study them. Other core ideas could be so subtle that hardly anybody in the TS today could comprehend them; the TS wouldn't be able to do much for them and few would be interested anyway. The historical relevance affects the 1st Object too; there would be no need to build a nucleus of humanity if humankind was already a well integrated network of nuclei, each embodying love in wisest action. The work to be done would be different. Because of all this, I believe it is important for people in the TS to work out what is core to their historical and cultural context without being overly attached to that particular compilation, while keeping in mind the more archetypal "core" ideas, insights and experiences of existence. For instance, we could say that the idea that there's a single Source of all is about as "core" as it is possible to get, but any intellectual expression of it can only be a fraction of, and a pointer to, a fuller realisation of the actual reality. It all depends on how much of our nature is active and engaged in the process, and to what degree - the intellectual being but one of the several principles potentially involved. Come to think of it then; why not recognize core feelings - love for example - and core intuitions in addition to core concepts? How many shades and expressions of love are there? How would we transmit a core feeling, for example? Is a book the best way? And core behaviour patterns? Even further, people who see themselves in, or have been put into, the "experiential" camp, could just as well delineate core experiences. They could set up a vocabulary of them, if there were a big enough base and enough will! Truth is, I reckon, that getting to cores is central to the whole process of theosophy which is about evolutionary gnosis as well as to the products of such gnosis:- The hidden needing to be sought out, a path being trodden, difficulties being overcome, the treasure being finally discovered, becoming one with the goal, etc etc. So if we're going to fling this word around, don't leave anybody out!! Getting back to the polarisation we have seen between so-called "core" and other kinds of theosophists, if we take an example from science, theoretical physicists acknowledge the importance of experimental physicists, and vice-versa, and both see the two types as being complementary and very necessary to each other's work. Science, which is part of the public quest for knowledge, recognizes the need to advance on two "feet", as it were, one theoretical and intuitive, the other practical and observational. Can't theosophists do a similar kind of thing, and let a more theoretical approach coexist comfortably with a more experiential one? We're all explorers in the end. The TS might be a bit crippled, but please let's not try to chop one of its legs off, whichever it might be! It has enough tendencies toward self-amputation as it is. When people start to exclude others from their approval, and express their judgements, the stage is set for conflict and power struggles which we have seen several times on this list now. >There is a Theosophical essence, for want of a better >word, and there is theosophy as a stream of knowledge that gets dammed up >periodically and turned into a definite teaching by someone who seems to >catch the essence of some part of the stream. This is a great insight, Bee, and beautifully put. >History seems to say that this >teaching rather quickly gets turned into dogma and the essence is lost. That >still hasn't stopped 'keen' inquirers from working their way through the >dogma in the attempt to find what gave rise to the dogma in the first place. Yes, and this is why I don't write off any religion, no matter how encrusted with barnacles it appears to be on the surface. Maybe the TS just needs a few barnacle-scrapers! Murray Member TI, and of the TS in NZ From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Sun Jul 21 14:17:20 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:17:20 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607211614.KAA20035@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS >url is http://www.upanet.uleth.ca/~PARA/index.htm >You can also get it fron vnet where John E Mead had go it in ASCII. >If you download from upanet.... then you will get files with HTML >commands inserted and you need to convert it to ASCII. HTML does it just fine. I think the idea of putting a lot of Theosophical books on the net is a very good one, preferably with the addition of modern commentaries. I am scanning the one Ramadoss sent me (Man's Life in three Worlds, by AB). I can email it to anyone, or maybe I'll just put it in my web directory for now. Is any of you Theosophical experts/writers willing to write some commentaries to VOS, Key to Theosophy or other early books? Alan, how is that web site coming along? Bjorn From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 21 17:26:06 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:26:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Castaneda In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Maxim Osinovsky wrote: > importance for the planetary evolution. The theosophical motto suggests > "there is no religion higher than truth" rather than "there is no > religion higher than my personal opinion." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well said. It may help to keep this in mind at all times. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Sun Jul 21 17:33:43 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:33:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: VOS In-Reply-To: <199607211614.KAA20035@alpinet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > I think the idea of putting a lot of Theosophical books on the net is a very good one, preferably with the addition of modern commentaries. I am scanning the one Ramadoss sent me (Man's Life in three Worlds, by AB). I can email it to anyone, or maybe I'll just put it in my web directory for now. > Bjorn: Please send it to John E Mead, the owner of theos-xxx and he will put it u for anyone to get it using get command. That way we will have the materials in one place. ...doss From euser@euronet.nl Sun Jul 21 18:34:26 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:34:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607211834.UAA25965@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: TS yoga - reply to Bee Bee>Many thanks for all this info. I shall have a good look. What I meant was that there seems to be no official TS method that beginners can practice. You're welcome. Here in the Netherlands, the Dutch Point Loma society has what you can call an official method for 'beginners' and 'advanced students' alike. The former leader (now deceased) DJP Kok has constructed a meditation based on the principle that the fluid mind molds itself into the objects of thoughts (see my before mentioned article). The object of thought should be impersonal, like universal brotherhood (siblinghood). This technique is taught to interested students in the very first course. These students are not a member of the TS yet, so that means that this practice of thinking is taught to everybody who is interested enough to just follow a course on Theosophy. Bee> There is the ES but that is for certain people only as I understand. Dear Bee: I believe that there is no *real* esoteric section anymore in any TS. Furthermore, and more importantly: things have changed vastly since world war II. Many people have been brought into contact with Eastern notions and Western Hermeticism via all kind of channels, organizations and individuals and the esoteric field is wide open for the public. This kind of knowledge is fairly easy to get now, not through books and courses alone, but also through the internet. Of course, there is a lot of confusion about these things, as there is a lot of chaff among the wheat. There are a lot of reified notions (eg people who think they can gain physical immortality to give one small example) and one thing the TSs can do (should do) is to provide clear information about spiritual things to as large a public as it can draw attention from. Individuals can provide such information through the internet (many have been doing and are doing this). Again, the TSs have no monopoly on truth! Bee> Dipping into all the areas you mentioned to find the appropriate way is fine for seasoned Theosophists who know where to look but to actually take some of these and weave them into a method and then teach them to newcomers will probably result in a slap on the knuckles. By whom? Your superiors? Don't they understand that times have been changing? The time for secrecy is over! Massive amounts of people are orienting themselves on spiritual things and this is a sign of a new phase humanity is entering into, giving expression to. Many people are crossing certain points on the Path, and some of them will openly help others to understand certain aspects of the spiritual. Information considered secret sixty years ago is now openly being taught! Bee> I personally would find such a method great for passing on to the young students who come in looking for that. Well, why don't you start developing one? There's enough information and examples available. The theosophical society I'm part of sees no problem in teaching exercises such as I described above (forming an image in the mind, etc.). GdeP describes it in his books and I noticed that many spiritual organizations are using it in one form or another in their instructional materials. This kind of exercise is based on a real knowledge of how the mind works and it is high time that people learn about it (especially young people). The internet has an increasing collection of descriptions of techniques on many sites, so reality has long passed by the old notions of secrecy! > > - the famous Pythagorean exercise of looking back at the events of the day Bee>that is the one I found in the Rosicrusian book and gave that to the young woman who came yesterday. De Purucker mentions this exercise in ~Wind of the Spirit~. Bee> I will ponder on all this and see what I can come up with. Many thanks Bee Bee: you might prefer E-mail to me directly instead of to theos-l. If I can be of any service, please let me know. Martin From euser@euronet.nl Sun Jul 21 18:34:32 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:34:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607211834.UAA25975@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - to Maxim Max>Martin, Max>I belong to the school of thought in theosophy that believes that first things should come first. A very fine principle indeed. BTW, is there a name for that school of thought? Max> First contact with one's Higher Self, and then--as a natural outcome of the contact--a lot of wonderful things like intuition, siddhis, and so forth. Sure. And how to make this contact? Meditation techniques, exercises, etc. are just a *means* to channel the energies from the spiritual. I'm *not* talking about siddhis, I'm talking about directing the mind to the noetic plane or sphere and channel some energy into the system. Why do you think Blavatsky (& others) gave meditation techniques to her students? Because they were perfect channels for the Self? No, of course not. Blavatsky herself has stated that she needed help from the Masters to find the 'I Am', the Christ energy, the Buddhic level. So, I disagree that it is as easy to contact the Higher Self on a self-conscious basis as you seem to suggest. Max>So for me and for some others in the theosophical movement the main criterion to judge wheter or not a TS yoga exists, is to see if theosophy offers any means of making the contact. Well, does it offer any means in your experience? And what are those means? Max>This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where it properly belongs. Max: it belongs on the noetic plane, for sure. But people are not pure channels through which the flow of Life streams undefiled. People can purify themselves through their way of life (motive is all important) and meditation techniques can be helpful to some. People have all kinds of blockages and meditation exercises can help them to become aware of them and do something on that, release some blockages. Working in groups will have all kinds of effects too.. BTW, the idea of purifying is not to become perfect, but rather: whole, integrated, etc. Maybe I missed something in your posting. If so, please elucidate. Martin From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 19:46:55 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:46:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Answers ... In-Reply-To: <31F1AFBD.513C@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <31F1AFBD.513C@whanganui.ac.nz>, Bee Brown writes >It is not a big city that I live in and the >spiritually interested people circulate around most of the groups in town and >exchange gossip as well as advice. It wouldn't take long for other members of >the Lodge to become aware that I have been dispensing 'theosophical advice' >and what sort it is. This list showns just how hard it is to get Theosophists >to agree on the teachings so I imagine the same will certainly apply to Lodge >members too. If I hit on e.g. Raja-Yoga and draw up the relevant info on it >and it becomes known in town that this is the Theosophical method and others >come and request some teaching on it, I could be in deep mire because I know >some of our members would be very upset. That is not how they see Theosophy. >This is why I have asked about an official method approved off by TS to help >accessing the higher self. I understand your problem, and apologise if I offered superfluous advice, as I should know that you would give freelyof your own experience if asked. Having said this, I cannot see how the TS *as such* can have an "official approved" method of working, as there is no provision in either the objects nor the rules [Adyar] for such a thing, as the bliefs and opinions of individual members are (or should be) respected. In my own work, which for the greater part of my esoteric life has been *outside* the TS I have always prefaced any method or practice with a) the information that this worked for me; b) that anything I teach should be questioned and examined - "This is the teaching as I have received and understood it. Don't believe a word I tell you," and c) that any consequences of taking my advice were the responsibility of the taker. Like all who teach in these areas, I have had people tell me that they do not think I am doing/telling it right, and I have said (and say) to them, "Then take set aside my views, and explain what is wrong with them; maybe we can both learn this way." There is always a body of people whose main function in life seems to be to criticise others' work (in a negative sense) but who offer no real alternative. With such people I have always been "in the mire" as you eloquently put it! So, if I were (say) to put together a raja yoga offering and some people did not like it, I would say that it was *they* who had a problem, not me. Perhaps they would like to put an imporoved version together for the student(s) who were *asking* for some guidance? Thus they would be serving the first object in *co-operation* with you. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sun Jul 21 19:26:27 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:26:27 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F28463.5137@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: VOS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit m.k. ramadoss wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > > > I think the idea of putting a lot of Theosophical books on the net is > a very good one, preferably with the addition of modern commentaries. I > am scanning the one Ramadoss sent me (Man's Life in three Worlds, by > AB). I can email it to anyone, or maybe I'll just put it in my web > directory for now. > > > Bjorn: > > Please send it to John E Mead, the owner of theos-xxx and he will put it > u for anyone to get it using get command. That way we will have the > materials in one place. > > ...dossSorry to be a pest,but I wonder if someone can give me a bit of computer advice. I have just downloaded some Vitvan articles into my Word 6 and find that the Autobiography is 57 pages long. Now the problem with e-mail and WWW articles is that the lines only cover 3/4 of the page and so waste a lot of paper when printed out. I know how to spread the lines from margin to margin via the replace function but that is paragraph by paragraph and for 57 pages will take ages. Is there an easier way to format articles to cover the whole page? I can get some messy articles from WWW by the time I look at them in Word. Many thanks. Bee From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 19:55:48 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:55:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice In-Reply-To: <960721005201_160740321@emout12.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960721005201_160740321@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Religion is, in all cases, a source of evil. Religion does, in all cases, contain a variable amount of good. *Attachment* to religious dogma is, in all cases, a source of danger. I have learned a great deal from the pursuit of the second object, which is my justification for the above. Perhaps you will make the same claim for your contrary opinion. I find it hard to believe that you genuinely see things in such "black and white" terms. As you say in another post: 'To paraphrase the old pentecostal, "When doctrine conflicts with experience, you throw out the doctrine."' May I add, "... and when doctrine conforms to experience, you keep it - at least until further experience changes your understanding." Alan [smiles ingratiatingly]. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:12 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:12 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga Message-Id: <960721214612_76400.1474_HHL69-3@CompuServe.COM> >I belong to the school of thought in theosophy that believes that first >things should come first. First contact with one's Higher Self, and >then--as a natural outcome of the contact--a lot of wonderful things like >intuition, siddhis, and so forth. Been there. Done that. Its not as easy as you suggest. >So for me and for some others in the theosophical movement the main >criterion to judge wheter or not a TS yoga exists, is to see if >theosophy offers any means of making the contact. Theosophy does not offer such a means. At least, it never offered me one. It does tell us that such a thing exists, which is a good start. But I had to figure out how to contact my Higher Self on my own. >This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where >it properly belongs. This sounds very "core-ish" but doesn't make much sense. You seem to be saying that we have a Higher Self, and that we must contact it first before we can practice yogic techniques that we can use to contact our Higher Self . This is an obvious Catch 22. If you think that you can contact your Higher Self with karma yoga and altruism (which is what the TSs offer us) then you are in for a rude shock. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:15 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:15 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Psychic Defenses Message-Id: <960721214615_76400.1474_HHL69-4@CompuServe.COM> >Yet we need a psychological defense so that we are constantly being vampirized >of our spiritual energy without are consent and mutual replenishment. Keith, the *only* real defense in the inner planes is compassion. It must be honest and sincere, and not forced. This may sound hokey in today's world, but it is true and it comes from my own experiences, not from anything particular that I read. There are lots of psychic devices and defense techniques to be found in New Age Books, but all you really need is to feel compassion for the other person and you cannot be vampirized, period. It works on all planes and at all times, and is the only useful psychic safety net that I know of. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:17 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:17 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960721214617_76400.1474_HHL69-5@CompuServe.COM> >>Theosophists are as prudish (and wrong) today >>as they were last century. > >*Some* theosophists, I hope you mean! > Alan, how about "Most theosophists?" The vast majority believe in sex for procreation only, just like the Catholics. This goes back to HPB's extolling of celibacy. I am not sure that they understood the psychological need for physical and emotional intimacy in those days. Intimacy with a Significant Other is healthy, while sexual repression leads to pathology. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:20 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:20 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Descent into matter Message-Id: <960721214620_76400.1474_HHL69-6@CompuServe.COM> >What do you think about the notion (which I entertain seriously from >time to time) that we may (re)incarnate quite by accident? Suppose, let >us say, that one of the spiritual entities you mention got a bit too >close to what is often called the "earth plane" and got sucked in? Alan, this suggests the Chaos Factor, which I do believe in. However, the only way to get yourself born onto this physical earth into a physical body is desire. Without the desire, you just can't make it. The catch it, desire for self-expression is inherent in all beings--its a monadic characteristic that sooner or later bites us in the butt, so to speak. So *all* entities get themselves born into matter at some point or another. >And are we not all spiritual entitities to begin with? Yes, and even the gods must reincarnate at some point. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:21 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:21 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Message-Id: <960721214621_76400.1474_HHL69-7@CompuServe.COM> > The only ones who >really take that nonsense seriously now are either too old to >function or too stupid to figure out the mechanics. Chuck, I agree. Theosophists are in the same camp as Catholics when it comes to sex--its only for procreation. Apparently they never heard of the psychological need for intimacy. Sex as an expression of love is a foreign concept. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:23 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:23 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Castaneda Message-Id: <960721214622_76400.1474_HHL69-8@CompuServe.COM> >Jerry, >I'll bet that Carl has never forgiven himself for turning Casteneda down. > Think of all the money he could have made. > >Chuck As a matter of fact, he admitted to me that it was the biggest blunder of his life. However, I told him that I would have turned it down myself. Integrity, 1: money, 0. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 21:46:06 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 17:46:06 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Response to Jerry S on Purity/Theos Message-Id: <960721214606_76400.1474_HHL69-1@CompuServe.COM> > I am sure working on my 'take" on this rationalization for all the suffering, pain >and unfairness of the world, not to mention all the sentient beings with >nothing better to do than run around and eat each other so they can breed and >make more entities that run around and eat each other ..... Yeah, Chuck, >NATURAL BORN KILLERS ... Keith, one of the weird things about this mortal life of ours is that we have to kill other living beings in order to live ourselves. Our physical body needs the bodies of other beings (and yes, plants are living beings too) in order to survive. It seems cruel, but it is all about sacrifice, and how we have to sacrifice ourselves in order for others to live, or sacrifice others in order for ourselves to live. So, murder is unavoidable. >I assume Jerry that you are referring to Enochian type angels, or Kabalisticc >sepiroth who are in the archetypal world and are a direct face of Ain Soph and >that these angelic beings have never been tainted by negativity on the lowest >material plane. Yes, those and more. The gods and goddesses of Tibetan Buddhism come to mind as well. But even the gods will eventually reincarnate. Life is an adventure, and all part of our inherent desire to express ourselves. >Could be! I would like to think there is so reason for us to go through all of >this (life) besides learning that we really don't want to be going through all >of this! Are we having fun yet? Jerry S. Member, TI From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 22:32:38 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 18:32:38 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Answers Message-Id: <960721223237_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM> Bain: >I understand your problem, and apologise if I offered superfluous >advice, as I should know that you would give freelyof your own >experience if asked. Having said this, I cannot see how the TS *as >such* can have an "official approved" method of working, as there is no >provision in either the objects nor the rules [Adyar] for such a thing, >as the bliefs and opinions of individual members are (or should be) >respected. . . My understanding of the Society has been that: 1. Through it's library and other informational avenues, was it able to provide the inquiring student with information about many paths. The student was then free to choose a particular path based on his point in evolution and particular personality. 2. It also provided an umbrella, so to speak, under which the students from many disciplines could gather and exchange views in a spirit of fellowship. 3. It would create an atmosphere of tolerance in a world where the many spiritual teachers have claimed to have the only handle on truth and enlightenment. I have observed the "we only got it here" phenomenom in both the Eastern and Western disciplines. And the various Christian churches will claim they have better and/or more powerful services. The hotline to God is claimed by so many, one wonders why the entire population of planet earth is not enlightened. I may be wrong, but I believe that most people that have long-term membership in TS are already firmly settled on some path. Perhaps those who are still searching could be provided with better services in their search, rather than the offhand treatment usually given to the TS newbie. - Ann E. Bermingham From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 23:06:27 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 19:06:27 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Various Posts by Jerry S. Message-Id: <960721230627_72723.2375_FHP35-1@CompuServe.COM> Jerry S.: > Worrying about the purity of historical figures is a lot like >worrying about the purity of food, the purity of our neighbors, and >so on. It all comes from our own inner fears and prejudices, and >from what we have stored up in own shadow. CWL was right to >teach sex to older children (16 or older) but wrong to touch them. >. . . Activation of spiritual forces almost always >charges the Root Center (muladhara) and Sex Center (svadhisthana) >and one becomes sexy in spite of oneself. This is why gurus tend >to get into sexual trouble. Its how we handle such phenomena that >count. And repression is not an option. I agree. It is my understanding that an initiate, being stimulated by the intiation process and having to deal with the powerful forces inside of him/her, has to channel that energy into a creative project which will benefit humanity. This will put the available energy into another arena rather than the sex life. However, there will still some energy moving towards the lower chakras and that could be used in an appropriate relationship. That relationship could be of mutual benefit, as each person could help other in their work. >Alan, how about "Most theosophists?" The vast majority >believe in sex for procreation only, just like the Catholics. >This goes back to HPB's extolling of celibacy. This is news to me. > Chuck, I agree. Theosophists are in the same camp >as Catholics when it comes to sex--its only for procreation. >Apparently they never heard of the psychological need for intimacy. >Sex as an expression of love is a foreign concept. And are they in the same camp in terms of actually doing what their say? Surveys have shown that American Catholics practice birth control. They just don't mention it in the confessional. Seems the rebellious USA Catholics think it is nobody's business but their own what they do in the privacy of their bedroom. They go about that business and receive the sacraments without confessing something they don't really believe is a sin. Your views, Jerry S., sound like something along the lines of modern Tantra. Which is certainly fine with me. - Ann E. Bermingham From jmeier@microfone.net Sun Jul 21 19:39:24 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:39:24 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607212339.AA13200@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: VOS/WORD 6 (Bee) Hi Bee -- >Sorry to be a pest,but I wonder if someone can give me a bit of computer >advice. I have just downloaded some Vitvan articles into my Word 6 and find >that the Autobiography is 57 pages long. Now the problem with e-mail and WWW >articles is that the lines only cover 3/4 of the page and so waste a lot of >paper when printed out. I know how to spread the lines from margin to margin >via the replace function but that is paragraph by paragraph and for 57 pages >will take ages. Is there an easier way to format articles to cover the whole >page? I can get some messy articles from WWW by the time I look at them in >Word. >Many thanks. >Bee Soft return word wrap is easier in WordPerfect than Word for imported ASCII documents. Which means, I know how to do it in the one but not the other. :) Word 6 for DOS or Windows? If no one else answers your question first, I'll tag my "administrative assistant" Monday morning, as I do for 80% of my p.c. questions. I'm putting this on theos-l so that we don't have a dozen folks answering your question all at the same time. Regards, Jim From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 20:20:10 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:20:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Web In-Reply-To: <199607211614.KAA20035@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607211614.KAA20035@alpinet.net>, Bjorn Roxendal writes >Alan, how is that web site coming along? > >Bjorn Very slowly - almost stop, but this may be in part to the recent US convention taking up a lot of peoples' time. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Mon Jul 22 00:33:14 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:33:14 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Web In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <199607211614.KAA20035@alpinet.net>, Bjorn Roxendal > writes > >Alan, how is that web site coming along? > >Bjorn > > Very slowly - almost stop, but this may be in part to the recent US > convention taking up a lot of peoples' time. > Alan Actually ... I'm programming the basic pages right now - and by the way, would any members of TI that are not subscribed to theos-buds kindly sign on? Seems appropriate to work out the Web page's text there ... needs to be by consensus ... and theos-buds is probably the right list to do such work on. (I've just posted some Home Page text for review and comments there). For those that may not remember ... send an email message to: listserv@vnet.net and in the body of the message write: subscribe theos-buds yourname Regards, -JRC From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 22 01:22:02 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - back to Martin In-Reply-To: <199607211834.UAA25975@mail.euronet.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Martin_Euser wrote: > Max>Martin, > > Max>I belong to the school of thought in theosophy that believes that first > things should come first. > > > A very fine principle indeed. BTW, is there a name for that school > of thought? I do not attach any name to it. > > Max> First contact with one's Higher Self, and > then--as a natural outcome of the contact--a lot of wonderful things like > intuition, siddhis, and so forth. > > > Sure. And how to make this contact? > Meditation techniques, exercises, etc. are just a *means* to > channel the energies from the spiritual. I'm *not* talking about siddhis, > I'm talking about directing the mind to the noetic plane or sphere > and channel some energy into the system. > Why do you think Blavatsky (& others) gave meditation techniques > to her students? Because they were perfect channels for the Self? > No, of course not. Blavatsky herself has stated that she needed help > from the Masters to find the 'I Am', the Christ energy, the Buddhic > level. So, I disagree that it is as easy to contact the Higher Self on a > self-conscious basis as you seem to suggest. Whether it is easy to contact the Self or not, of course depends on one's previous work. I did not suggest it's easy; for some it's not. I intended to emphasize that the TS yoga, if it does exist, should be more than just techniques of concentration and meditation: it has to be the techniques PLUS a specific sense of direction. Otherwise one does not need to go to HPB for advice: go to any hard-working businessman or financial analyst, and s/he will teach you a thing or two about *real*, no-nonsense concentration and meditation. I do not quite understand what do you mean by directing the mind to the noetic plane. If you mean directing the lower mind to Manas as a constituent of the Higher Self (Atma-Buddhi-Manas), it's fine with me, and I think both of us mean the same. As to how to make the contact, I would refer you back to the sources that you of course know very well, like Bhagavadgita and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. It's perennial stuff. Of course I did not intend to teach you about or remind you of BG, YS, and the like. > Max>So for me and for some others in the theosophical movement the main > criterion to judge wheter or not a TS yoga exists, is to see if > theosophy offers any means of making the contact. > > Well, does it offer any means in your experience? > And what are those means? It's not an issue for me at all. It was not me who first asked about TS yoga. And I am not going to offer my own version of the TS yoga. However, if it is about the Higher Self, than certain things may be stated about it, as well as any other Higher Self-oriented path, like Bhagavadgita, Upanishads, Christianity, Mahayana Buddhism, etc. (this is a comprehensive list). > > Max >This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where > it properly belongs. > > Max: it belongs on the noetic plane, for sure. The Higher Self is distributed over several planes--do you call all of them in their totality 'the noetic plane'? If so it's unquestionable. > But people are not pure channels through which the flow of Life streams > undefiled. People can purify themselves through their way of life > (motive is all important) and meditation techniques can be helpful > to some. People have all kinds of blockages and meditation exercises > can help them to become aware of them and do something on that, release > some blockages. Working in groups will have all kinds of effects too.. Did I say that meditation techniques are useless? I do not think so (first of all since I myself practice meditation on a regular basis, not so as a technique but rather as a more or less permanent communion with my Higher Self), but if I did it was a mistake and I take it back. To make it clearer, let me quote a technique from R.S.Mishra's "Fundamentals of Yoga" (1987 edition, p.56). It's called a 'technique to magnetize the body'--a hot thing among healers, but look how it is shaped in the context of raja yoga: 1. Place your body in comfortable posture, 2. Relax your body completely. 3. Repeat firmly samyama (fixation, suggestion, and sensation). 4. By pratyahara (withdrawal of energy), take charge of consciousness and energy at your disposal. 5. When the body is relaxed, feel pulsation and electromagnetic attraction in the entire body. 6. Feel identity with supreme consciousness and nadam [i.e. OM]. 7. Forget completely the relation and union of the body at time of ptactice. 8. Your mind should register different sensations of nerve currents going on at the time of practice. 9. Remember the nature of the Self, which has eternal consciousness, existence, knowledge, peace, and bliss. 10. If lower desires come to your mind, check them immediately. [In this context 'lower desires' should mean all desires other that that of liberation.] Now, it is likely that someone eager for personal development will grab the technique and start practicing it, eliminating all 'unnecessary' elements--likely victims include steps ## 6, 9, and 10. Don't you think it's going to chanhe the or pervert the entire thing? I observed it so often that I do not want to waste time proving it. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 22 02:13:36 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga In-Reply-To: <960721214612_76400.1474_HHL69-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >I belong to the school of thought in theosophy that believes that first > >things should come first. First contact with one's Higher Self, and > >then--as a natural outcome of the contact--a lot of wonderful things like > >intuition, siddhis, and so forth. > Been there. Done that. Its not as easy as you suggest. I did not suggest it's easy. What I insisted on is that it's unavoidable: one cannot bypass the Higher Self. However, we do not need to treat this subject in too simplistic a manner by imaginig the Higher Self as something unusual. I guess 50% to 80% population of this planet receive occasional revelations or directions from their Selves; 10 million to 50 million people are guided (mostly unconsciously) by their Selves (I do not include those who are guided by some astral entities). If I'm right the situation is not so hopeless. > > >So for me and for some others in the theosophical movement the main > >criterion to judge wheter or not a TS yoga exists, is to see if > >theosophy offers any means of making the contact. > Theosophy does not offer such a means. At least, it never > offered me one. It does tell us that such a thing exists, which is a good > start. But I had to figure out how to contact my Higher Self on my own. Same in my case. > >This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where > >it properly belongs. > This sounds very "core-ish" but doesn't make much sense. > You seem to be saying that we have a Higher Self, and that we must > contact it first before we can practice yogic techniques that we can use > to contact our Higher Self . This is an obvious Catch 22. If you think > that you can contact your Higher Self with karma yoga and altruism > (which is what the TSs offer us) then you are in for a rude shock. No, I was not saying that. I was suggesting doing concentration and meditation with the purpose of making contact with the Self rather with the purpose of doing concentration and meditation. In the final analysis, everybody finds his/her own unique way to realization--for some it is working in the office, for others doing business or science, for still others pursuing quest in the area of core theosophy or process theosophy, New Age, Christianity, and so forth... The incredible and irreducible variety of threads woven together! Sometimes they resonate in tune with each other, sometimes they don't. So if what I had to say did not make much sense for you, please ignore it. Max From JacMa@aol.com Mon Jul 22 02:18:53 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:18:53 -0400 From: JacMa@aol.com Message-Id: <960721221852_438985618@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: DS Has anyone a clue about the D.S. Vol.III and IV, announced by HPB and re-announced by G.de P. I read recently (Le Lotus Bleu) that it could be soon released. How can this piece of theos. knowledge, if it ever existed, have stay hidden ( at least to the majority ) ? The last 25 years of each century are supposed to be the time for acceleration... Jacques Mahnich From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 23:15:52 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:15:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Descent into matter In-Reply-To: <960721214620_76400.1474_HHL69-6@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960721214620_76400.1474_HHL69-6@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >>What do you think about the notion (which I entertain seriously from >>time to time) that we may (re)incarnate quite by accident? Suppose, let >>us say, that one of the spiritual entities you mention got a bit too >>close to what is often called the "earth plane" and got sucked in? > > Alan, this suggests the Chaos Factor, which I do >believe in. However, the only way to get yourself born onto >this physical earth into a physical body is desire. Alan as devil's advocate: Can you support this assertion (which is how it reads)? > Without >the desire, you just can't make it. The catch it, desire for >self-expression is inherent in all beings--its a monadic >characteristic that sooner or later bites us in the butt, so >to speak. So *all* entities get themselves born into matter >at some point or another. Another assertion? If true, why here and not Planet X? Why a planet at all? What happens when this one stops? > >>And are we not all spiritual entitities to begin with? > > Yes, and even the gods must reincarnate >at some point. Modesty forbids comment on this ... > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 23:21:13 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:21:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <1GONZHAptr8xEwK1@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Purity and theosophy In-Reply-To: <960721214617_76400.1474_HHL69-5@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960721214617_76400.1474_HHL69-5@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >>>Theosophists are as prudish (and wrong) today >>>as they were last century. >> >>*Some* theosophists, I hope you mean! >> > >Alan, how about "Most theosophists?" The vast majority >believe in sex for procreation only, just like the Catholics. >This goes back to HPB's extolling of celibacy. I am not sure >that they understood the psychological need for physical >and emotional intimacy in those days. Intimacy with >a Significant Other is healthy, while sexual repression leads >to pathology. I can't honestly say I have noticed this tendency in England. Certainly some of the *very* ancient TS members seem to take this view, but in general those I have met, even those I do not care for much as people, seem to be as much sexual beings as anyone else. There is a fair amount of hidden homophobia about in some quarters, especially, it appears, in the E.S. - which is comical considering the CWL business. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 22 02:32:31 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:32:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 Theosophy International welcomes Kay Ziatz of Russia! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 21 23:22:40 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:22:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <0WUN9JAAvr8xEwLF@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Psychic Defenses In-Reply-To: <960721214615_76400.1474_HHL69-4@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960721214615_76400.1474_HHL69-4@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >There are lots of psychic devices and >defense techniques to be found in New Age Books, but all you really >need is to feel compassion for the other person and you cannot be >vampirized, period. It works on all planes and at all times, and is the >only useful psychic safety net that I know of. While I agree entirely Jerry, it can be *real* hard to do! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 22 02:20:01 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:20:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Answers In-Reply-To: <960721223237_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960721223237_72723.2375_FHP54-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Perhaps those who are still >searching could be provided with better services in their search, rather than >the offhand treatment usually given to the TS newbie. > >- Ann E. Bermingham This is probably (no - certainly) the most important work to be done. My own feeling is that it will have to be done by individual experienced theosophists working in or out of lodges. Part of the work of TI will be in this field I am sure - did you see John Crocker's suggestions for the TI Web page? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 21 19:33:11 1996 Date: 21 Jul 96 15:33:11 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Ignore this message Message-Id: <960721193311_72723.2375_FHP35-1@CompuServe.COM> This is a test. I can't seem to log onto theos-roots. Ann E. Bermingham From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:10:40 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:10:40 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722111040_242879492@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Attn: TI Members John, Very good. Chuck From euser@euronet.nl Mon Jul 22 21:13:36 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:13:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607222113.XAA27710@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members JRC wrote: *Excellent* - any other brave volunteers? You can add me as a volunteer. Question to John: does 'Links to other Theosophical People & Organizations' include links to (small t) theosophical organizations? If so, then I have some links available (I've mentioned one to Alan already) Regarding The History of Theosophy: there exist some pages on that already on the internet (TSA stuff I think). Maybe these pages can be copied and edited to speed up the process of writing (not that I am volunteering :)) JRC> Yes ... in fact I'm hoping that when the link gets up and running the "TI Essays and Projects" page will have links to a few dozen different pieces that will at least partially represent the diversity of thought of the TI membership - do you suppose you could organize what you are doing around one or two "themes" (I'm already thinking of the "Essays" page ... and think the best way to design it would be to have several different themes so visitors could select a theme, then get a page w/ a menu of different online works - both from current TI members as well as (perhaps) other, older materials that are making their way online ... but this is just brainstorming at this point (-:). How about the themes 'esoteric psychology', 'Life after death?', 'The initiatory cycle' to suggest but a few? The internet has quite some material online on such topics, so links can be easily provided. Otherwise your home page looks fine. Martin From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Tue Oct 22 22:32:12 1996 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:32:12 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961023164428.1baff49a@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI Members At 06:07 PM 21/07/96 -0400, JRC wrote: >Hi there ... have begun programming the TI Home Page & linked sites - >would like to present the Home Page text I've come up with for >commentary/criticism by TI members. Have been trying to come up with >something with the idea that people who have never heard of TI or >Theosophy, but whose inner natures might be looking for such a thing will >find attractive. Do comment in any way, from any angle, on any part of >the text you wish - this is a *first draft* so don't pull no punches >(like anyone here would ... (-:). [snip] It's great to see this being floated. I think what JRC wrote is very apt. I too would like to see stuff that is likely to catch the attention of those who are on the lookout in this sort of way. There are, of course, many ways of framing an attention-grabber and intro like this, and we don't need to feel that one RIGHT or BEST version has got to be produced before we put it up for view. Let's capitalise on our variety. So, starting with this thought, here are a few ideas for a TI Web site, in the spirit of brainstorming. 1 Update part of the contents REGULARLY from different writers. We don't want it to be a cobweb site! The introductory piece, as JRC wrote, could be changed every 6 months. We could change the content or layout in lesser ways every month or so. I don't mean to rework the whole thing, though; some stability is essential, eg a recognizable logo, and there's the work involved to think about too. It would be nice if our visitors actually came back to see what's cooking, and found something to reward them for it. 2 Have a site coordinator and rotate the role every month or two to give a change of flavor and spread the work. 3 Have a link in the table of links to a page or so of highlights from theos-l discussions. The site coordinator could gather these, whether actual quotes or just a para on the main themes. Theos-l members could just send them in, wise or witty. You could have the typo for the month; some of them are incredibly apt. With writer's permission, of course. 4 Have a link to a news page, eg about other sources of theosophical info. coming onto the Internet, the formation of the Western Alexandrian Academy (hope I've remembered the name properly, JHE), David Reigle's work on the Book of Dzyan, progress on John Cooper's projects, how the Russians are coming on, etc etc. 5 Make sure the graphics are good and get somebody who has got a superb Macintosh for graphics and an artistic soul. A PC and an artistic soul will do just about as well! You see a few neat things on the net, and a lot of pretty grungey stuff, so let's say what we're on about with more than words. 6 Don't have large areas of graphics, however. Maybe in a couple of years when general net speed and bandwidth have gone up, but not now. People get sick of waiting for big graphics or turning it off and on. 7 Think how some people like to hear about other people and have, for instance, a corner on one of the pages for short accounts of "how I met theosophy" or "how I found my present path of interest". Most people I've met in connection with the TS have an interesting story to tell, and like to hear about others. 8 On the same line, have some interviews where one of us has talked (face-to-face or over the net) with somebody else, in or out of the TS, and recorded it. Just the highlights - it mustn't be longwinded. I've seen the interview process turn out some extraordinarily interesting meetings, even between theosophists. A boring interview, of course, needn't hit the net. 9 We should say somewhere on the home page that "We consider ourselves to be a resource for you in your path", and say a bit about what those resources are. Include book resources like the Olcott library, but don't limit the idea to books. Plus "We won't try to convert you (or we darn well shouldn't!)" 10 We could say somewhere visible that the TS had a lot to do with the seeding of the New Age movement, cracking the shell of western attitudes as they were, not that the TS is exactly responsible for everything that has happened since. Then refer to the link(s) to the more detailed history. Keep an eye open to fundamentalist opposition on this one, though. They sometimes love to point to some flaky thing that has nothing to do with the TS and then try to reverse-engineer it to blame it on the TS and HPB. 11 The links to Other Theosophical People and Organizations should include the theosophical Internet foci we know about, like alt.theosophy and theos-world. There's some very fine theosophy out there too, from people who sometimes haven't heard of the TS; not a bad idea to keep mindful of itt. I suggest our attitude to them should be one of interest and kinship, plus a willingness to learn. It is often true that we give our best when we are open enough to receive the best of others. 12 We need to expand our First Object thinking more consciously, towards a NETWORK mentality - a nucleus amongst nuclei. Lots of people are trying to form a nucleus now, and lots are more aware of the position of their nuclei in the network of humanity than we often manage to be. 13 Let's remember we're trying to ENCOURAGE a study as wide as life and be willing to INVESTIGATE everything in sight (or maybe, everything beyond sight), and then if any of us have a gem of a teaching or a crystal-clear process to share, we can put it somewhere in these Web pages for a kindred mind to find and enjoy. Down off the soap-box now! Who's next? Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Tue Oct 22 22:38:29 1996 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:38:29 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961023165045.1bafc14a@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re:TI members, an addition I meant to add to my previous piece on this that I'm willing to be a volunteer to receive and reply to e-mail enquiries. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 22 05:12:33 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: DS In-Reply-To: <960721221852_438985618@emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 JacMa@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone a clue about the D.S. Vol.III and IV, announced by HPB and > re-announced by G.de P. > I read recently (Le Lotus Bleu) that it could be soon released. > How can this piece of theos. knowledge, if it ever existed, have stay hidden > ( at least to the majority ) ? > The last 25 years of each century are supposed to be the time for > acceleration... Jacques, I guess you mean the volumes that H.P.Blavatsky planned to write, and allegedly wrote, right? If so, you need to get the 1st volume of "The Secret Doctrine" published in Blavatsky's Collected Writings series (published in 1993), and read Boris de Zirkoff's "Historical Introduction." It seems to be an honest and exhaustive account of how "The Secret Doctrine" was written, edited, and published, and what happened to materials for the 3rd and 4th volumes. Max From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 22 11:58:18 1996 Date: 22 Jul 96 07:58:18 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE OF SILENCE ON THEOS-ROOTS Message-Id: <960722115818_74024.3352_BHT104-1@CompuServe.COM> The VOICE of the SILENCE by H.P. Blavatsky has been posted on theos-roots (first section, others to follow). You must subscribe separately to theos-roots. Send a message to the listserver to SUBSCRIBE THEOS-ROOTS. For further help, contact John Mead. Ann B. said she is not getting her theos-roots yet even though she has subscribed. Let me know if others are having difficulty or contact John Mead directly for problems with the listserver. I hope everyone that is interested in Blavatsky will consider contributing at one time or another to the discussion as we all have a unique perspective on the lady and her works like VOS. I am interested in contacting the VOICE of the Silence myself and listening for its guidance in my life. Namaste Keith Price From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 22 02:40:37 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:40:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes >No, I was not saying that. I was suggesting doing concentration and >meditation with the purpose of making contact with the Self rather with >the purpose of doing concentration and meditation. Sounds fine to me. > >In the final analysis, everybody finds his/her own unique way to >realization--for some it is working in the office, for others doing >business or science, for still others pursuing quest in the area of core >theosophy or process theosophy, New Age, Christianity, and so forth... The >incredible and irreducible variety of threads woven together! Sometimes >they resonate in tune with each other, sometimes they don't. So if what I >had to say did not make much sense for you, please ignore it. Maybe you are simply having a language/communication problem? What you say here makes sense to me :-) > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:09:51 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:09:51 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722110947_242878719@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Castaneda Now wait a minute here. What is a religion but a collection of opinions and that being the case the opinion of one is as good as the opinion of any other, in which case the statement that "There is no religion higher than my personal opinion," is totally valid. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:11:01 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:11:01 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722111059_242879306@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice Alan, Your ingratiating smile can, at times, turn even my wrath. But when I think of the damage that religion is done, I find it difficult to think of it in any other term. That is a purely subjective and highly judgemental position, but one that I seem to be stuck with. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:11:10 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:11:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722111109_242879422@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Copy of: Purity and theosophy Jerry, This is one of the times when we have to make the distinction between the minority who let their lives be run by the old fogies who wrote most of the literature in the early part of this century and the bulk of the people in the society who recognize such teachings for the unmitigated flapdoodle that they are. When I first started hanging around Olcott, the place was characterized by a continuous game of musical beds and they could not wait to attach me to someone. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:11:23 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:11:23 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722111117_242879388@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Psychic Defenses Jerry, You really must read my Psionic Combat. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 22 15:11:14 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:11:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960722111111_242879463@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Castaneda Jerry, I'm not sure that I would be so certain of what I would do, but my personal inclination would probably have been to turn it down as well. Chuck the Heretic From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 22 15:33:52 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Castaneda In-Reply-To: <960722110947_242878719@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Now wait a minute here. What is a religion but a collection of opinions and > that being the case the opinion of one is as good as the opinion of any > other, in which case the statement that "There is no religion higher than my > personal opinion," is totally valid. > > Chuck the Heretic Chuck, You are absolutely right. This is what's called the 'relative truth.' An absolutely correct relative truth. Maybe when we get sick of our particular truths we'll get out of the closets into the marketplace of ideas to find something in common. I see it as a major driving force behind discussion groups like this one. So what's going on here is beautiful and appropriate. The only thing I'm concerned about is how not to lose my sense of humor and and not to allow the sense of my own importance to get the upper hand. Your help is appreciated. Max From jem@vnet.net Mon Jul 22 15:56:34 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:56:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607221556.LAA04926@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS in theos-L library to retrieve VOS in ascii, send an e-mail message to listserv@vnet.net containing the lines: get theos-l vos.txt get theos-l vosglos.txt the text and the glossary will then be sent to you in e-mail. peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From jem@vnet.net Mon Jul 22 16:52:05 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:52:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607221652.MAA06477@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS discussion on THEOS-ROOTS hi - regarding the VOS study group on Theos-roots --- some people may have been confused about the different theosophy discussion lists. each list has a slightly different purpose and each list must be subscribed to SEPARATELY. to subscribe to any list send a message to listserv@vnet.net containing the line subscribe list-name firstname lastname the list-name can be one of the following: Theos-L Theos-News Theos-Roots Theos-Buds Theos-Span the differences between these lists is summarized below. Theos-L : a general discussion list on any aspect of Theosophy. Theos-Roots: a discussion list devoted to the Roots/History of classic Theosophy. Theos-Buds: a discussion list devoted to the "Budding" new ideas forming and evolving in Theosophy "today and tomorrow". Theos-Span: a general discussion list for Spanish-speaking Theosophists. Theos-News: a distribution list for Theosophical Events, News Items, and Announcements Hence - if you wish to take place in the VOS study group on Theos-Roots, you must be subscribed to that list. If you are unsure if you are on that list then feel free to subscribe again anyway. It will return e-mail to you stating 1: you are already subscribed or 2: You are now subscribed to the list once again, to subscribe to theos-roots send to listserv@vnet.net the command line subscribe theos-roots firstname lastname your e-mail address is not needed since it is extracted directly from the e-mail internet header. peace - john e. mead p.s. VOS discussions are also sent to Theos-roots@vnet.net rather than theos-l@vnet.net ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 22 16:54:15 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 12:54:15 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607221654.MAA26121@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Mahatma letters In-Reply-To: <199607200253.VAA18827@main.com>; from "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" at Jul 19, 96 10:52 pm According to Paul M.M. Kieniewicz: > > If the Masters had anything to do with writing the Mahatma letters, why is > it that the science discussed in these letters reflects 19th century ideas, > and is so at odds with present day observations? Because they were written in the 19th century. Were the Mahatmas just bad > scientists or (more probably) were the letters authored by someone else who > was just echoing the ideas of the day. In some areas they foreshadow subsequent scientific developments, but in others they echo unreliable sources, e.g.: > > 1. Atlantis? A very popular 19th century idea. It just doesn't exist. I > challenge anyone to take the latest satellite pictures of the Earth's oceans > and find me Atlantis or where it was in the Eocene or Miocene. One of the > latest ideas is that Atlantis is actually Antartica. That's quite a long way > off - and it didn't submerge in the Miocene. No continent could have been in the Atlantic, but what about a lost civilization in the Azores, Canaries, Madeiras that would account for Plato's legend? snip > > And so on. I don't know if what is written in those pages on non-scientific > issues makes any sense. But the scientific passages are painful to read. > > Paul IMO the non-scientific material is superior, and sometimes gives a very interesting angle on British Indian history and issues. From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 22 17:08:46 1996 Date: 22 Jul 96 13:08:46 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Copy of Purity and Theosophy Message-Id: <960722170846_72723.2375_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM> Dr. P: > When I first started hanging around Olcott, the place was >characterized by a continuous game of musical beds and they could not wait to >attach me to someone. I knew there was life somewhere in those dusty offices and corridors. No matter how hard they try they just can't keep that creative energy from filtering down to the lower level. Even the popes had kids. Why not just throw out this celibacy facade and acknowledge the value of a healthy sex life? BTW, what is your URL? -Ann E. Bermingham From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 22 22:44:13 1996 Date: 22 Jul 96 18:44:13 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Descent into matter Message-Id: <960722224412_76400.1474_HHL9-3@CompuServe.COM> >Another assertion? If true, why here and not Planet X? Why a planet at >all? What happens when this one stops? Alan, not an assertion, but a conclusion that is derived from my definition of "monad." I see self-creativity and self- expression as inherent in every monad. This is based on experience as well as reading (for example, Kephera and Tmu were both said to have self-manifested) and I feel strongly that the psychological archetypal Self (inner divine spark) is self-manifested. The only other option is to believe in a God who forces us into manifestation, and I find this idea repulsive. We will all get to "Planet X" in good time. Your last question is like "why is the sky blue" or "why is there life?" which have no definitive answers to them except "because." When in spacetime, we all have to be somewhere, and Earth is as good as any. However, I believe that there are countless other solar systems available to us as well, and we tend to gravitate to those we feel an affinity (karma?) with. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 22 22:44:11 1996 Date: 22 Jul 96 18:44:11 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Sex (to Ann) Message-Id: <960722224410_76400.1474_HHL9-1@CompuServe.COM> > It is my understanding that an initiate, being stimulated by the >intiation process and having to deal with the powerful forces inside of him/her, >has to channel that energy into a creative project which will benefit humanity. >This will put the available energy into another arena rather than the sex life. >However, there will still some energy moving towards the lower chakras and that >could be used in an appropriate relationship. That relationship could be of >mutual benefit, as each person could help other in their work. Ann, spiritualization will always stimulate the lower chakras. The problem is what to do about it. I have found that writing books is a big help--when one is finally published, I feel just like I gave birth. However, even that is not enough. There are really only two options: (1) have sex with yourself or another person, or (2) move the psychic energy from the lower chakras to the higher. Since I am married (going on 33 years, BTW), I have both options available. There are Taoist Yoga and Tantric techniques for raising the energy levels to higher chakras, and those who wish to remain celibate should look into practicing these. I have had varying degrees of success with this, but intimacy with my Significant Other works best. >>The vast majority [of theosophists] >>believe in sex for procreation only, just like the Catholics. >>This goes back to HPB's extolling of celibacy. > >This is news to me. It was certainly a surprise to me too. But the comments that flowed back to us from the essay we wrote all shouted this. Not one person agreed with us. I believe that even G de Purucker writes that sex is for procreation only, but I can't recall where. >Your views, Jerry S., sound like something along the lines of modern Tantra. >Which is certainly fine with me. Well, I generally don't use sex for spiritual development (my wife doesn't go for that sort of thing). But I do for intimacy, which is psychological healthy when confined to one couple sharing their lives together. Unlike HPB, I believe that one can marry and still tread the Path. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 22 22:44:11 1996 Date: 22 Jul 96 18:44:11 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga Message-Id: <960722224411_76400.1474_HHL9-2@CompuServe.COM> Max, Thanks for the explanation. We are not so far apart. Jerry S. Member, TI From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:28 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 00:05:28 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960723070528.0067c720@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Mahatma letters Paul J: [writing to Paul K] >> 1. Atlantis? A very popular 19th century idea. It just doesn't exist. I >> challenge anyone to take the latest satellite pictures of the Earth's oceans >> and find me Atlantis or where it was in the Eocene or Miocene. One of the >> latest ideas is that Atlantis is actually Antartica. That's quite a long way >> off - and it didn't submerge in the Miocene. > >No continent could have been in the Atlantic, but what about a >lost civilization in the Azores, Canaries, Madeiras that would >account for Plato's legend? Before I would comment on this, I'd want to go back to some maps showing continental drift, to see if there was a continent a few million years back where the Atlantic ocean can now be found. If these changes happen over vast ages, it does not necessarily have to be a "rising" or "sinking" of continents. What's Cayce's slant on this? -- Eldon From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 22 23:13:19 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 00:13:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960722111059_242879306@emout12.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960722111059_242879306@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Your ingratiating smile can, at times, turn even my wrath. But when I think >of the damage that religion is done, I find it difficult to think of it in >any other term. Nay, nay, old friend. It is what *people* have done using religion as their justification that has done the damage. If religion(s) had nothing of value in them, they would not have gotten off the ground to begin with. > That is a purely subjective and highly judgemental position, >but one that I seem to be stuck with. One of thse days I will get to write the essay dealing with all this that has been in my head for some time now. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From pmmkien@main.com Tue Jul 23 01:45:49 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:45:49 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607230147.UAA11228@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Atlantis et al. Hi Eldon -- it's a while since we met in California under the great pine trees! Some words regarding your reply and K. Paul's on Atlantis. I have been involved in my job in the task of reconstructing the history of the North Atlantic since the late Cretaceous. One rather powerful tool is the new gravity map of the world released by the Dept. of Defense. "Discover" magazine had a feature on it last March (?). The map gives you a picture of the Earth's oceans with a resolution better than 20 km. You can trace continental spreading since the late Cretaceous on that map - the fracture zones are all mapped in great detail. Well, once you have defined the boundary of oceanic crust, you can fit the continents together like a jigsaw puzzle so that not even a chink shows. There's just not room for Atlantis anywhere in the Atlantic. There are few sites anywhere where you could hide a sizable continent. Of course you could place Atlantis on Crete - but it hardly fits the description in the Mahatma letters. Regarding the general sinking and uplifting of continents. Continental crust just doesn't founder and sink -- it is very buoyant, which is why it is not genrally found in depths of more than 2 km of water. One last attempt to sink a continet was when the Indian plate smashed into the Asian plate --- the result were the Himalyas. Given what we now know about these things, it's hard to believe the scenario of continents rising from under the water and falling - a concept popular in 19th century geology. Yes -- the level of the ocean does change -- cyclically, we know that. But that's a global effect. The fact that the Mahatma letters echo so much of 19th century science argues against them having been written by Masters -- who ought to know better. If a writer of these letters is castigating Sinnett and contemporary scientists for THEIR poor understanding of science, then if he is a Master, you'd think he ought to know. If on the otherhand, what he writes turns out to be bullshit, then chances are he isn't a Master. Paul K. From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Jul 23 02:01:37 1996 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:01:37 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960723020137.00682734@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. Paul K: Hi. >Some words regarding your reply and K. Paul's on Atlantis. I have been >involved in my job in the task of reconstructing the history of the North >Atlantic since the late Cretaceous. One rather powerful tool is the new >gravity map of the world released by the Dept. of Defense. "Discover" >magazine had a feature on it last March (?). The map gives you a picture of >the Earth's oceans with a resolution better than 20 km. You can trace >continental spreading since the late Cretaceous on that map - the fracture >zones are all mapped in great detail. It sounds familiar. I may have photocopied the article when it came out. >Regarding the general sinking and uplifting of continents. Continental crust >just doesn't founder and sink -- it is very buoyant, which is why it is not >genrally found in depths of more than 2 km of water. ... >it's hard to believe the scenario of continents rising from under the water >and falling - a concept popular in 19th century geology. Yes -- the level of >the ocean does change -- cyclically, we know that. But that's a global effect. There are different ways that we can interpret the statements about Atlantis. One is that the "rising" and "sinking" were attempts to express what happened in terms of what would be understood and accepted at the time, and if the same idea were expressed now, it would be expressed in terms of continental drift. (That is, there was land mass where the Atlantic Ocean is now, at a time period of perhaps a few million years ago.) A second description would be in psychological terms. With this key, we have the rising and submergence of a *continent of thought*, e.g. whole astral or archetypal patterns of thinking and expression. This would correspond to major evolutionary advances of humanity, rater than to radical changes in land mass. Perhaps there were mass migrations at this time. A third form of submergence would be by ice, as in various ice ages, causing cultural and evolutionary adaptations by people. >The fact that the Mahatma letters echo so much of 19th century science >argues against them having been written by Masters -- who ought to know >better. Or it may indicate that they were written primarily for the benefit of A.P. Sinnett, and not as a tretise on science for the western world. Certain materials may have been given a slant because of how Sinnett asked his questions, and not always with the intent of plainly and openly telling everything that he wanted to know. >If a writer of these letters is castigating Sinnett and contemporary >scientists for THEIR poor understanding of science, then if he is a Master, >you'd think he ought to know. If on the otherhand, what he writes turns out >to be bullshit, then chances are he isn't a Master. That's one possibility. But there are many other possible explanations. The letters, if written and transmitted through chelas, could have a certain bias by them, and get some "noise" added along with the bona fide information. Certain materials may be intentionally veiled behind an exoteric blind, with no intent on giving out scientific (or occult) knowledge. My inclination when reading a book like "The Mahatma Letters" is to ignore or downplay the scientific tidbits, considering them as curiosities but not as the latest word on science. What is said would be in response to the science of the last century, and often, perhaps, added for purposes of analogy and metaphor. The intent may have been to get people thinking in a certain way scientifically, rather than to tell them *what to think*, to point out a direction, rather than paint in the details of what will be found along the way. -- Eldon From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 00:09:43 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:09:43 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Re: TI members, an addition In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961023165045.1bafc14a@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <1.5.4.16.19961023165045.1bafc14a@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes >I meant to add to my previous piece on this that I'm willing to be a >volunteer to receive and reply to e-mail enquiries. > >Murray >Member TI and the TS in NZ > I'm glad you added this, as I was wondering how to respond to your brainstorming, which I thought was great (but who's going to do all this work?). Anyhow, I filed it to read thoroughly later, I was so impressed! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 23:46:32 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:46:32 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Weclome! Mime-Version: 1.0 TI Welcomes Mika Perala of Finland! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From liesel@dreamscape.com Wed Jul 24 01:33:18 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:33:18 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607240239.WAA18545@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members Ok I'll try to organize it around a theme. It'll be a while. Nothing comes fast these days. Toddles to you too Liesel >On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >> >> I like what you've got. >> >> You can use my e-mail address as a resource person. > *Excellent* - any other brave volunteers? > >> I've decided to give up making my own home page, but I'm in the process of >> compiling some of what I wrote on theos-l onto a disk. I eventually (like >> the 1st of the year) want to print up a booklet of the material. I told Alan >> he could have the material on a disk for the TI archives, but the TI home >> page suits me just as well. > Yes ... in fact I'm hoping that when the link gets up and running >the "TI Essays and Projects" page will have links to a few dozen >different pieces that will at least partially represent the diversity of >thought of the TI membership - do you suppose you could organize what you >are doing around one or two "themes" (I'm already thinking of the >"Essays" page ... and think the best way to design it would be to have >several different themes so visitors could select a theme, then get a >page w/ a menu of different online works - both from current TI members >as well as (perhaps) other, older materials that are making their way >online ... but this is just brainstorming at this point (-:). > >> Hope you get a response. > Boy howdy, me too. > Toodles, -JRC From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 23 04:52:37 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 00:52:37 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960723005236_582627211@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Castaneda Max, The big problem is not letting the way the board is constructed allow us to take ourselves too seriously. I've been very concerned of late because it is pretty obvious that there is something about the communication environment of the internet that brings out the absolute worst in people. It's almost like we develop multiple personalities, one for everyday, normal discourse and one for the board. I have no idea what can be done about it, but as soon as we realize it is there, maybe as individuals we can work on the problem. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 23 04:53:08 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 00:53:08 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960723005308_582627878@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Copy of Purity and Theosophy Ann, It has always been a facade. It's just that the men who did the most to promote it, CWL and Arundale, were into boys. My url is: http://home.earthlink.net/~boogienation/psionic.htm Chuck the Heretic From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 23 04:53:28 1996 Date: 23 Jul 96 00:53:28 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Why this body, planet etc.? Message-Id: <960723045328_74024.3352_BHT213-1@CompuServe.COM> age-ID: <960722224412_76400.1474_HHL9-3@CompuServe.COM> >Another assertion? If true, why here and not Planet X? Why a planet at >all? What happens when this one stops? Alan, not an assertion, but a conclusion that is derived from my definition of "monad." I see self-creativity and self- expression as inherent in every monad. This is based on experience as well as reading (for example, Kephera and Tmu were both said to have self-manifested) and I feel strongly that the psychological archetypal Self (inner divine spark) is self-manifested. The only other option is to believe in a God who forces us into manifestation, and I find this idea repulsive. We will all get to "Planet X" in good time. Your last question is like "why is the sky blue" or "why is there life?" which have no definitive answers to them except "because." When in spacetime, we all have to be somewhere, and Earth is as good as any. However, I believe that there are countless other solar systems available to us as well, and we tend to gravitate to those we feel an affinity (karma?) with. Jerry S. Member, TI The question I have had since I was a small child is: "why am I me and not you or someone else?" This may seem a trivial question, but if your think about all the notions of mind, brain, soul, spirit, monad, consciouness, ego and all the explanations of the subjective experince I am talking about when I say "I am", how did I get into this specific limited bodily expression. I have always felt something unexplainably peculiar about why I am looking out of my eyes at you, instead of you looking out of your eyes at "me". Here we get into a mirror game of infinite regress, where I am looking at you looking at me knowing I am looking and you knowing you are knowing about me knowing I am knowing I am looking ........ So why I am in this particular incarnation, this extreme localization of consciousness in a very limited animal body, but with a very large capacity to imagine various realms of which I have never seen with the physical senses. Was I free angelic spirit soaring free from world to world before I was born. Why was I draw to this incarnation? Was there a random factor? If it is random, am I responsible? Somebody had to inhabit this body? How does the DNA biological process allow for a being that can say "I am me and not you." In coming more spiritually conscious we may discover the answers such as the monad idea or reincarnating according to karmic lessons needed from traits aquired in past lives? Yet we also realize the limitations of these theories and the mystery of "I am" is flooded by a million self-centered descisions. A few glimpse the unitive consciousness promised by meditation, nirvana and "enlightenment". If I am the spark of the flame, if I was and am a free angelic being, why would I choose this? Is this the best I can do with the present development possible on this globe. Are we being swept to some Omega Point of Eternal Return. Nietsche, who is rarely taken seriously nowadays, had the idea of Eternal Return. That time repeats itself over and over and we will live this life an infinite number or times. This is used in his system to force us to make existential choices and really decide what we would do if we had to do it an infintie number of times and not wait for the manana of countless future lives or the pie in the sky of heaven or the blown outness of nirvana. I am glad some have made up their minds. I wish I could. Right now I am holding with the idea that evolution upward is the bounce after the descent into matter and that we gain self-knowledge of our connection to the One and return to it knowing ourselves for the first time (to paraphrase T.S. Elliot). Namste Keith Price From saf@angel.elektra.ru Tue Jul 23 07:52:46 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:37:06 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607231137.AA04773@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Castaneda Hello Maxim Osinovsky writes: > theosophists it's immensely more important to ask what's their > importance for the planetary evolution. I agree with you. For this reason I want to know a opinion about books: "The fire from within" and "The power of silence". Moreover I think that planetary evolution require evolution of everyone man. We must begin from oneself. Uri From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 23 12:31:55 1996 Date: 23 Jul 96 08:31:55 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: HELP! I CAN'T GET ON THEOS-ROOTS! Message-Id: <960723123154_72723.2375_FHP49-1@CompuServe.COM> Hi folks, My husband and I have tried to get on theos-roots several times, sending the message to both listproc and listserv@vnet.net. We have never received an error message or reply that we were subscribed. I have received no roots mail. I've written to Meade, but have gotten no reply. Maybe I don't have his correct email address. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong here or something is broken. I'm now making a public appeal. HELP! Ann E. Bermingham From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 23 13:05:57 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 9:05:57 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607231305.JAA28403@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. In-Reply-To: <199607230147.UAA11228@main.com>; from "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" at Jul 22, 96 9:48 pm According to Paul M.M. Kieniewicz: > > The fact that the Mahatma letters echo so much of 19th century science > argues against them having been written by Masters -- who ought to know > better. Find me evidence of any *real spiritual Master* of the 19th century who knew the truths unveiled by 20th century science-- and I'll grant your point. Otherwise, I think your definition of "Master" needs some grounding in historical reality. A person can be a recognized authority in an esoteric tradition, one qualified to teach others, without therefore knowing everything there is to know. Your argument as stated would seem to rule out the existence of any spiritual Masters in the 19th century. Isn't it more plausible to recognize that indeed there were, but that their knowledge was not quite as extensive as described in Theosophical literature? If a writer of these letters is castigating Sinnett and contemporary > scientists for THEIR poor understanding of science, then if he is a Master, > you'd think he ought to know. If on the otherhand, what he writes turns out > to be bullshit, then chances are he isn't a Master. > > Paul K. > Not a Master of Science, at least. From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Tue Jul 23 14:28:23 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:28:23 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: HELP! I CAN'T GET ON THEOS-ROOTS! In-Reply-To: <960723123154_72723.2375_FHP49-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > Hi folks, > > My husband and I have tried to get on theos-roots several times, sending the > message to both listproc and listserv@vnet.net. We have never received an error > message or reply that we were subscribed. I have received no roots mail. > > I've written to Meade, but have gotten no reply. Maybe I don't have his correct > email address. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong here or something is > broken. I'm now making a public appeal. > Ann ... Funny `ol thing ... I tought it was only me - same thing (exactly) happened - no error message, no response etc., etc. -JRC From blafoun@azstarnet.com Tue Jul 23 14:57:34 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:57:34 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607231457.HAA07417@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Attention: Concerning the posted version of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE ATTENTION: CONCERNING THE POSTED VERSION OF *THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE* I am glad that some of us have decided to post THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE on theos-roots and encourage a study discussion of this classic. But I should tell people that the version posted on theos-roots with the following(See below) publishing information is not a verbatim copy of the original edition first published in 1889. About 6 to 8 weeks ago, I informed John Drais (whose organization was responsible for posting this version on their Web page) about this. In the meantime Mr. Drais has been doing some research on the matter to confirm what I told him. The version posted on theos-roots is NOT verbatim with the original edition as given by HPB. There are a good number of changes. Possibly most of the changes are trivial in nature. If anyone is interested, a verbatim reproduction of the original 1889 edition has been reprinted by THE THEOSOPHICAL UNIIVERSITY PRESS in Pasadena, CA. Hopefully, Mr. Drais will post his findings in the near future. Looking forward to the Voice discussion. Daniel H. Caldwell NEW YORK. THEOSOPHICAL PUBLISHING CO. 244 LENOX AVENUE. ______ LONDON. KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH, TRUBNER & CO. DRYDEN HOUSE, 43 GERRARD ST. Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1889, in the office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington, D.C. From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 23 15:15:47 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:15:47 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960723111546_368291204@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Alan, But it is people who make up a religion. It does not come full blown from the void, but rather is a manifestation of the ideas of a bunch of people and all religions have in their basic nature something that makes people behave very badly towards each other, the idea that there is only one truth and they are the ones who have it. Now it is true that not everyone who ascribes to religion will have that bit of nastiness in them, but because it is in an inherint part of the religious process, it is going to show up somewhere and usually get somebody, or lots of somebodies, killed. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 23 15:20:07 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:20:07 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960723112004_368291945@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. Paul K, I think on of the problems here is the assumption that Masters are in some way omniscient, which they are not. They are quite capable of making mistakes, and if you read the Mahatma Letters carefully, you will find lots of them. But you must remember that the Masters did not write all the letters themselves. Often, according to their own words (and Eldon and Daniel will probably have the references on this) they assigned the task to a student or assistant who did the work and would have much less knowledge. The Masters are more evolved in many ways, but we do no service to them by deifying them. Chuck the Heretic From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Jul 23 18:35:00 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:35:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Subscribing to theos-roots. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi It is 1.30 cdt here now. I just saw JEM's msg that the problems with listserv has been fixed. I just sent a msg to see how listserv responds. To my request to subscribe to theos-roots, I got a reply in a couple of minutes that I am already subscribed to theos-roots. So listserv seems to be working ok. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From euser@euronet.nl Tue Jul 23 19:30:25 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:30:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607231930.VAA13460@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - reply to Ozren > Could you please point me to the exact title where this things can be found. I got the Vitvan's URL but I just can't seam to find it since there is so much stuff. Thank you Ozren Ozren, I have a way of browsing quickly through large collections of materials. It enables me to get a quick impression of the scope and depth of someone's writings. I have been looking where these exercises can be found, but in all those megabytes of articles, I seem not to be able to find it again right now. I have read only certain parts of several articles, and have certainly not digested it all. It has been most gratifying to read something really spiritual and *original* written *after* world war II! Nevertheless, you can find some valuable ideas concerning the frequency-energy-world and conscious abstraction in the ~Christos~, ~Cosmology~, ~on psychic nature~ and ~Introduction into semantics~. If I find it (I will look for it when I have time for that; I have downloaded all articles and Gifs) I will let you know! BTW, which country do you live in? I've been wondering about the '.si' country code. Martin From euser@euronet.nl Tue Jul 23 19:30:34 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:30:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607231930.VAA13483@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - back to Maxim Max (prev)> It has to be the techniques PLUS a specific sense of direction. Max>I do not quite understand what do you mean by directing the mind to the noetic plane. If you mean directing the lower mind to Manas as a constituent of the Higher Self (Atma-Buddhi-Manas), it's fine with me, and I think both of us mean the same. Yes, that's what I mean. That is the sense of direction you're talking about. GdeP writes about that in a clear way in his esoteric teaching II booklet pp 65-67. (Just a reference for the general reader of this list) Max>As to how to make the contact, I would refer you back to the sources that you of course know very well, like Bhagavadgita and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. It's perennial stuff. Of course I did not intend to teach you about or remind you of BG, YS, and the like. That's great stuff. I've been reading it when I was young and have reread it recently. I particularly like Quan Judge's interpretations of this. These classics clarify many issues of the mind and the Self. > > Max >This perspective on TS yoga elevates the whole issue to the level where > it properly belongs. > > Max: it belongs on the noetic plane, for sure. Max>The Higher Self is distributed over several planes--do you call all of them in their totality 'the noetic plane'? If so it's unquestionable. Yes, the Higher Self is involuted in the subplanes of matter. It's all there. We just have to start using these energies by directing our minds to these subplanes. By doing so, we develop or evolve this energy. I guess you can call this totality the noetic plane or aggregate of noetic subplanes. I had a more specific use of noetic in mind: the plane or sphere where the 'Christ'-energy touches one's mind, but on second thinking it is a multi-level plane anyway. One example in connection with the sex-drive: the procreative organ has a creative phase or potentiality which can be actualized in creative work. One centers his attention in the higher chakra's and uses the creative energy in expressions like writing, art, daily work (when the motive is unselfish), etc. This example is important because the life-force increases in intensity when one treads the Path and this energy expresses itself through the lower chakra's too (maybe especially so) and it has to be channeled into some creative work. GdeP has written about this too in ~Man in evolution~ and I noticed something alike in Vitvan's writings. It is my own experience too. Otherwise, I think Pythagoras was right when saying (something like this): give to the animal (inside) what it needs. It is the golden approach of the middle way. > But people are not pure channels through which the flow of Life streams > undefiled. People can purify themselves through their way of life > (motive is all important) and meditation techniques can be helpful > to some. People have all kinds of blockages and meditation exercises > can help them to become aware of them and do something on that, release > some blockages. Working in groups will have all kinds of effects too.. Max>Did I say that meditation techniques are useless? I do not think so (first of all since I myself practice meditation on a regular basis, not so as a technique but rather as a more or less permanent communion with my Higher Self), but if I did it was a mistake and I take it back. It was not completely clear to me what you meant. As you suggest meditation can be (that's the idea IMO) a communion with the Higher Self. It's a way of life, actually. We can channel some energy from these spheres, and step it down so to speak for use in daily life. I'm not implying that this means a self-conscious union with the Self of course. It is a gradual unfolding and expression of spiritual, wholistic, synthetic energies. Max>To make it clearer, let me quote a technique from R.S.Mishra's "Fundamentals of Yoga" (1987 edition, p.56). It's called a 'technique to magnetize the body'--a hot thing among healers, but look how it is shaped in the context of raja yoga: Max>Now, it is likely that someone eager for personal development will grab the technique and start practicing it, eliminating all 'unnecessary' elements--likely victims include steps ## 6, 9, and 10. Don't you think it's going to chanhe the or pervert the entire thing? I observed it so often that I do not want to waste time proving it. Sure, there's a tendency among many people to just use those aspects that seem profitable to their personalities. They look for quick ways to become rich, healthy, enlightened, etc. They may be in for a surprise, though. Short-term thinking will cause a backlash after some time. Martin From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 23 18:20:05 1996 Date: 23 Jul 96 14:20:05 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Message-Id: <960723182004_72723.2375_FHP62-1@CompuServe.COM> Dr. Psionic: >Now it is true that not everyone who ascribes to religion will have that bit >of nastiness in them, but because it is in an inherint part of the religious >process, it is going to show up somewhere and usually get somebody, or lots >of somebodies, killed. Try replacing the word "religion" with the word "driving a car". BTW, a big thanks to J. Meade, who contacted me and says the problem with Theos-roots should be fixed. Too bad I can't get that kind of speedy service from my insurance company about my car. -Ann E. Bermingham From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Tue Jul 23 19:09:38 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:09:38 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F52372.5710@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - reply to Ozren References: <199607231930.VAA13460@mail.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin_Euser wrote: > > > > > Could you please point me to the exact title where this things can be > found. I got the Vitvan's URL but I just can't seam to find it since > there is so much stuff. > > Thank you > Ozren Hi Bee here, The url is www.irdg.com/pc93/vitvan/htm Sorry it is not in the click and retrieve mode but I don't know how to do that. I have downloaded 5 articles and printed off 3 at around 55 pages each so get plenty of paper. He is well worth the trouble and I am enjoying what he has to say. > > Nevertheless, you can find some valuable > ideas concerning the frequency-energy-world and conscious abstraction in the > ~Christos~, ~Cosmology~, ~on psychic nature~ and ~Introduction > into semantics~. If I find it (I will look for it when I have time for that; > I have downloaded all articles and Gifs) I will let you know! > > BTW, which country do you live in? I've been wondering about the '.si' > country code. > > Martin From theos@sure.net Tue Jul 23 21:53:01 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:53:01 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607232153.OAA10300@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: W. Scott-Elliott on Atlantis and Lemuria Allen states: A book published a long time back, but maybe reprinted by theosophical sources, is "The Story of Atlantis & Lemuria" (or very similar). It is probably in Oclott Library, and is by a man called Scott-Elliot, a one- time member of the T.S. It is based on "psychic" perceptions rather than "scientific" ones, but it does answer the question from one angle - complete with maps! Historical note: This text was originally published as a transaction by the "London Lodge" of the T.S. The "Psychic" studies were performed by none other than Besant and Leadbeater, according to a later writer (was this their first research work?). I believe the first publication was in 1886 (?), but I canont confirm this at present as my copy (an original edition pulled from the 'Bristol Lodge' library) is currently packed away in storage. If my date is correct, then H.P.B. would have had access to this material! how much coorilation is there between the W. Scott-Elliott work and S.D. ??? Note: a small slip within the inside cover states that this was a private printing for members of the 'London Lodge' and that a future public pressing would be entitled "The Story of Atlantis" James From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 00:11:25 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:11:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Descent into matter In-Reply-To: <960722224412_76400.1474_HHL9-3@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960722224412_76400.1474_HHL9-3@CompuServe.COM>, Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes >When in spacetime, we all have to be somewhere, >and Earth is as good as any. However, I believe that there >are countless other solar systems available to us as well, >and we tend to gravitate to those we feel an affinity (karma?) >with. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > I'll settle for that ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 23:39:11 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:39:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960723182004_72723.2375_FHP62-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960723182004_72723.2375_FHP62-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >Dr. Psionic: > >>Now it is true that not everyone who ascribes to religion will have that bit >>of nastiness in them, but because it is in an inherint part of the religious >>process, it is going to show up somewhere and usually get somebody, or lots >>of somebodies, killed. > >Try replacing the word "religion" with the word "driving a car". After just having replied to the above, I wish I had said that! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 24 00:11:55 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:11:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: TI Web Page Mime-Version: 1.0 For TI members and general surfers, the URL below now has *four* links. One to Chuck Cosimano's DIY page, one to TSA, one to words of wisdom by me, and one to Martin Euser's link on Spirit/WWW. Regrettably, a typo in the link info gets you an error message. If your browser shows the link info in a panel at the top (as Netscape does) then altering "/user.euser" to "/user/euser" will get you there until the typo is corrected. (Don't use the quote marks!). I hope soon to be able to add a "home page" of my own ... you have been warned :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 23:35:36 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:35:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Teaching In-Reply-To: <960723111546_368291204@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960723111546_368291204@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >But it is people who make up a religion. It does not come full blown from >the void, but rather is a manifestation of the ideas of a bunch of people and >all religions have in their basic nature something that makes people behave >very badly towards each other, the idea that there is only one truth and they >are the ones who have it. That may be the perception of many people today about many religions of today (the one truth bit) >Now it is true that not everyone who ascribes to religion will have that bit >of nastiness in them, but because it is in an inherint part of the religious >process, it is going to show up somewhere and usually get somebody, or lots >of somebodies, killed. IM not very HO, it is an inherent part of the *human* process, and shows up in just the same way among people who couldn't care less about religion. Did I ever try to make you read my "The Nazarenes, a speculative enquiry into Christian origins"? BTW, I haven't been to look yet, but your TI Web link should be in place at the URL below. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 23:17:45 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:17:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Why this body, planet etc.? In-Reply-To: <960723045328_74024.3352_BHT213-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960723045328_74024.3352_BHT213-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >Right now I am holding with the >idea that evolution upward is the bounce after the descent into matter and that >we gain self-knowledge of our connection to the One and return to it knowing >ourselves for the first time (to paraphrase T.S. Elliot). > More or less my own notion at present as well, Keith, though I am not so sure about the "first time" element in the above extract from your post. There seems to be, in my own experience, an "I"-dentity that *already* knows, and adds bits to that knowledge from time to time as I pass this way ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From jem@vnet.net Wed Jul 24 01:46:24 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:46:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607240146.VAA12529@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: can not get on theos-roots hi - this problem should be fixed. if this is still happenning -- please send e-mail directly to me. thanks - john e. mead jem@vnet.net ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 23:47:07 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:47:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Welcome! Mime-Version: 1.0 TI Welcomes Mika Perala of Finland! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 24 03:56:38 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:56:38 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960723235638_440596627@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Ann, I think you are having some fun but for the sake of those who take us seriously there is a small difference. Driving a car is not the same as claiming to have the only true spiritual path for whatever. On the contrary, when one drives, one has a choice of a number of routes and disasters are rarely the result of malice, unlike religion which overflows with it. Chuck the Heretic From jem@vnet.net Tue Jul 23 16:20:31 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:20:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607231620.MAA27824@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Addressing problems with theos-xx lists fixed hi - We had experienced some listproc problems involving addresses in all of the theos-xxx lists. It is now fixed. If you experienced some strange stuff happening when you subscribed or sent e-mail lately, it should be fixed now. please send any problems you experience (occurring AFTER receiving this message) to me directly. thanks - john e. mead From blafoun@azstarnet.com Tue Jul 23 14:57:34 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:57:34 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607231457.HAA07417@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Attention: Concerning the posted version of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE ATTENTION: CONCERNING THE POSTED VERSION OF *THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE* I am glad that some of us have decided to post THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE on theos-roots and encourage a study discussion of this classic. But I should tell people that the version posted on theos-roots with the following(See below) publishing information is not a verbatim copy of the original edition first published in 1889. About 6 to 8 weeks ago, I informed John Drais (whose organization was responsible for posting this version on their Web page) about this. In the meantime Mr. Drais has been doing some research on the matter to confirm what I told him. The version posted on theos-roots is NOT verbatim with the original edition as given by HPB. There are a good number of changes. Possibly most of the changes are trivial in nature. If anyone is interested, a verbatim reproduction of the original 1889 edition has been reprinted by THE THEOSOPHICAL UNIIVERSITY PRESS in Pasadena, CA. Hopefully, Mr. Drais will post his findings in the near future. Looking forward to the Voice discussion. Daniel H. Caldwell NEW YORK. THEOSOPHICAL PUBLISHING CO. 244 LENOX AVENUE. ______ LONDON. KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH, TRUBNER & CO. DRYDEN HOUSE, 43 GERRARD ST. Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1889, in the office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington, D.C. From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 24 02:45:20 1996 Date: 23 Jul 96 22:45:20 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: A Test by Ann B. Message-Id: <960724024519_72723.2375_FHP85-1@CompuServe.COM> I've received a message that I am subscribed to roots. Now, let's see if I get mail back from myself. Ann B. From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Thu Oct 24 08:39:29 1996 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:39:29 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961025025145.12af8bc2@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members, an addition Murray wrote: >>I meant to add to my previous piece on this that I'm willing to be a >>volunteer to receive and reply to e-mail enquiries. Alan replied: >I'm glad you added this, as I was wondering how to respond to your >brainstorming, which I thought was great (but who's going to do all this >work?). Anyhow, I filed it to read thoroughly later, I was so >impressed! Alan, I imagine we'll do what we can with what we've got, but maybe a sort of roster would help us to work together, ie a list of aspects of the Web site with a name opposite each one, and change the assignments around one place every couple of months. It depends on what people want and what they feel they can do, but I think a bit of organisation will help to lubricate the cooperation. It may even be fun. Thanks. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 24 14:06:34 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:06:34 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: <+y9bHDAq3i9xEwRZ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: TI members, an addition In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961025025145.12af8bc2@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <1.5.4.16.19961025025145.12af8bc2@iprolink.co.nz>, Murray Stentiford writes >Alan, > >I imagine we'll do what we can with what we've got, but maybe a sort of >roster would help us to work together, ie a list of aspects of the Web site >with a name opposite each one, and change the assignments around one place >every couple of months. It depends on what people want and what they feel >they can do, but I think a bit of organisation will help to lubricate the >cooperation. It may even be fun. > >Thanks. > >Murray >Member TI and the TS in NZ As I notified the list yesterday, I hope to get my own home page in August. One useful addition which could be made right now will be links to TI members' home pages on the existing TI Web page below. There is already a link to Martin Euser and to Chuck Cosimano (who I am sure will put links to the TI page on their own sites) :-). Maybe you could expand on what your idea of "a bit of organisation" might mean in terms of the "how" thereof? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 24 19:49:51 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:49:51 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F67E5F.2498@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TI members, an addition References: <1.5.4.16.19961025025145.12af8bc2@iprolink.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray Stentiford wrote: > > Murray wrote: > >>I meant to add to my previous piece on this that I'm willing to be a > >>volunteer to receive and reply to e-mail enquiries. > > Alan replied: > >I'm glad you added this, as I was wondering how to respond to your > >brainstorming, which I thought was great (but who's going to do all this > >work?). Anyhow, I filed it to read thoroughly later, I was so > >impressed! > > Alan, > > I imagine we'll do what we can with what we've got, but maybe a sort of > roster would help us to work together, ie a list of aspects of the Web site > with a name opposite each one, and change the assignments around one place > every couple of months. It depends on what people want and what they feel > they can do, but I think a bit of organisation will help to lubricate the > cooperation. It may even be fun. > > Thanks. > > Murray > Member TI and the TS in NZ Nice to see you back. I will volunteer to help out where I can too. I probably have a bit more time than some so count me in. Bee From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Thu Jul 25 02:33:43 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:33:43 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: TI members, an addition In-Reply-To: <31F67E5F.2498@whanganui.ac.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Bee Brown wrote: > I will volunteer to help out where I can too. I probably have a bit more time > than some so count me in. > Bee > Bee does this mean I can put your name & email address on the part of the Web site that contains those who will answer inquiries from Web site visitors? (So far Alan, Liesel, Murray, Martin and myself have volunteered). It may take no time, or it may (after the site gets going and is linked all over and registered with the big search engines) become quite busy. I'd personally like 8 or 10 names for the volunteer list - so that if someone is too busy at a particular time s/he could find another to forward the inquiry to ... -JRC From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 24 04:44:44 1996 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:44:44 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607240444.VAA20908@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: W. Scott-Elliot on Atlantis and Lemuria Allen states: A book published a long time back, but maybe reprinted by theosophical sources, is "The Story of Atlantis & Lemuria" (or very similar). It is probably in Oclott Library, and is by a man called Scott-Elliot, a one- time member of the T.S. It is based on "psychic" perceptions rather than "scientific" ones, but it does answer the question from one angle - complete with maps! James gives a "Historical note": This text was originally published as a transaction by the "London Lodge" of the T.S. The "Psychic" studies were performed by none other than Besant and Leadbeater, according to a later writer (was this their first research work?). I believe the first publication was in 1886 (?), but I canont confirm this at present as my copy (an original edition pulled from the 'Bristol Lodge' library) is currently packed away in storage. If my date is correct, then H.P.B. would have had access to this material! how much coorilation is there between the W. Scott-Elliott work and S.D. ??? Note: a small slip within the inside cover states that this was a private printing for members of the 'London Lodge' and that a future public pressing would be entitled "The Story of Atlantis" Daniel replies: James, the year is 1896. Scott-Elliot's work entitled *Atlantis: A Geographical, Historical and Ethnological Sketch* was published as Volume 29 of the *Transactions of the London Lodge of the Theosophical Society*. Issued Feb. 1896. Later that same year, it was published as a book under the the title *The Story of Atlantis* by the Theosophical Publishing Society in London. Later I think in 1904 (?), Scott-Elliot's book *The Lost Lemuria* was published. From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Sat Jul 24 06:45:29 1993 Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 08:45:29 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <2C50DA89.74A8@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - reply to Martin References: <199607231930.VAA13460@mail.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Nevertheless, you can find some valuable > ideas concerning the frequency-energy-world and conscious abstraction in the > ~Christos~, ~Cosmology~, ~on psychic nature~ and ~Introduction > into semantics~. If I find it (I will look for it when I have time for that; > I have downloaded all articles and Gifs) I will let you know! > > BTW, which country do you live in? I've been wondering about the '.si' > country code. > > Martin Thank you for your respond Martin. I think you're doing a great job Informing people about Vitvan's material. I downloaded all of the material my self and I'm now slowly reading it. About the ;si.+ I live in the country called Slovenia witch use to be part of Yugoslavia but it s an independent country now. I hope that justifies my bad English. Regards Ozren From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Thu Oct 24 08:39:33 1996 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:39:33 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961025025149.12af8f1e@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Chuck wrote to Alan: >But it is people who make up a religion. It does not come full blown from >the void, but rather is a manifestation of the ideas of a bunch of people and >all religions have in their basic nature something that makes people behave >very badly towards each other, the idea that there is only one truth and they >are the ones who have it. >Now it is true that not everyone who ascribes to religion will have that bit >of nastiness in them, but because it is in an inherint part of the religious >process, it is going to show up somewhere and usually get somebody, or lots >of somebodies, killed. Chuck, Sounds like a case of the mass affecting individuals, and individuals making up the mass. I think that territoriality deeply ingrained in the psyche, plus sheer inability to comprehend a different mindset have a lot to do with the evil wrought by organized religion. Then there's the tendency to violence which sure isn't limited to religion. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 24 12:12:40 1996 Date: 24 Jul 96 08:12:40 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Message-Id: <960724121240_72723.2375_FHP47-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >I think you are having some fun but for the sake of those who take us >seriously there is a small difference. Driving a car is not the same as >claiming to have the only true spiritual path for whatever. On the contrary, >when one drives, one has a choice of a number of routes and disasters are >rarely the result of malice, unlike religion which overflows with it. I considered my statement serious. The problem is with the driver/member of religion, not the religion itself. Religous paths may be based on untruths, but human frailty is what puts the spin on them. Now if we agree that fallible humans create religions, therefore religions can be faulty, then I would agree to that logic. I perceive that you would probably rejoice when all religions would vanish from the face of the earth. It wouldn't be a bad idea if everyone could get to that point of consciousness where they didn't feel a need for a priest or guru to advise them. They would listen to their Higher Self and probably get better answers. Maybe we'll both get our wish in the Aquarian Era. IMHO, I don't believe that most devotional religions will survive in that time frame. It's my hypothesis that there will a great emphasis on scientifc and inner knowledge (gnosis). -Ann E. Bermingham From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 24 14:47:47 1996 Date: 24 Jul 96 10:47:47 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: TS Toga Message-Id: <960724144747_73632.105_FHV90-2@CompuServe.COM> Regarding the discussion of whether the Society has a yoga, I recall a quote from HPB (the exact source escapes me, but perhaps some of the more scholarly list members will be able to supply it) to the effect that Theosophy itself is a form of karma yoga blended with jnana yoga. IOW, the Society's emphasis on right action is virtually identical to karma yoga (see Vivekananda's book on the subject, for example) and the study of Theosophy leads to jnana yoga type realizations. Perhaps the party who inquired about particular methods was placing an undue emphasis on the induction of trance or samadhi states. My view of the effect of studying Theosophy is that it produces significant change in the entire constitution of the individual over a very long term period, similar to some of the metaphors contained in the Dhammapada regarding long term change. One acquires a sense of what P.D. Ouspensky calls "scale", an awareness of the vastness of the processes that we are involved with and of the extreme limitations associated with the confinement of consciousness to a physical vehicle. With this comes a relaxed attitude toward time. We are no longer frustrated at not seeing dramatic results within six months...a year...a life. There is a certainty that we are within the sphere of influence of a profound and timeless process of development with which we now consciously choose to cooperate. --Frank Dyer From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 24 14:33:20 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:33:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: W. Scott-Elliot on Atlantis and Lemuria In-Reply-To: <199607240444.VAA20908@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607240444.VAA20908@web.azstarnet.com>, Blavatsky Foundation writes >James, the year is 1896. Scott-Elliot's work entitled *Atlantis: A >Geographical, >Historical and Ethnological Sketch* was published as Volume 29 of the >*Transactions of the London Lodge of the Theosophical Society*. Issued >Feb. 1896. Later that same year, it was published as a book under the >the title *The Story of Atlantis* by the Theosophical Publishing Society >in London. Later I think in 1904 (?), Scott-Elliot's book *The Lost Lemuria* >was published. Interesting background info, Dan. It has jogged my memory. The title as I used to have it before I donated it to Bristol UK Lodge (who seem to have lost it) was "The Story of Atlantis and the Lost Lemuria" bound in blue cloth with six individual maps as an insert within the back cover pocket. I forget the date of this edition. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Wed Jul 24 15:55:16 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 11:55:16 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607241555.LAA16060@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: TS Toga In-Reply-To: <960724144747_73632.105_FHV90-2@CompuServe.COM>; from "Frank J. Dyer" at Jul 24, 96 10:50 am According to Frank J. Dyer: > > Regarding the discussion of whether the Society has a yoga, I recall a quote > from HPB (the exact source escapes me, but perhaps some of the more scholarly > list members will be able to supply it) to the effect that Theosophy itself is a > form of karma yoga blended with jnana yoga. IOW, the Society's emphasis on right > action is virtually identical to karma yoga (see Vivekananda's book on the > subject, for example) and the study of Theosophy leads to jnana yoga type > realizations. In principle, I agree, but would like to see more practical emphasis on where people can start. Theosophy offers something that is *sorta like* yoga, and provides a source of values and ideas that are helpful-- but something is missing. > > Perhaps the party who inquired about particular methods was placing an undue > emphasis on the induction of trance or samadhi states. Can't comment on someone else's motivation, but in my case it isn't trance states that I felt missing in Theosophy and found elsewhere. Instead, it's a holistic kind of guidance that suggests practices for the physical body, mind and emotions and comes from a source that conveys a sense of caring about one's well-being and growth. I get that from the Cayce material, but not from most Theosophical writings. My view of the effect of > studying Theosophy is that it produces significant change in the entire > constitution of the individual over a very long term period, similar to some of > the metaphors contained in the Dhammapada regarding long term change. My observation is that Theosophy actually produces some fairly rapid changes, precisely those you note below: One > acquires a sense of what P.D. Ouspensky calls "scale", an awareness of the > vastness of the processes that we are involved with and of the extreme > limitations associated with the confinement of consciousness to a physical > vehicle. With this comes a relaxed attitude toward time. We are no longer > frustrated at not seeing dramatic results within six months...a year...a life. > There is a certainty that we are within the sphere of influence of a profound > and timeless process of development with which we now consciously choose to > cooperate. This is a good statement of the sense of wonder one feels when first discovering and studying Theosophy. Inspiration and consolation it provides in abundance. But when it comes to the level of applying what we know, Theosophy speaks in generalities. Sometimes specifics are necessary, and I hope that the societies and their publications come to recognize this rather than remain satisfied with lofty abstractions. Cheers Paul From poulsen@dk-online.dk Wed Jul 24 20:06:28 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:06:28 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB798B.016DAAC0@ppp197.dk-online.dk> Subject: Re: Core Teaching from a silent voice Encoding: 53 TEXT First, many apologies for my delayed response to this post (and others), I have been away and am catching up on my mail. >I'm trying to follow all these arguments about "Core Teachings." why is it >that with all the information studied and brainpower exerted over the >writings of "Theosophists", no-one seems to utilize "Comparative Religion" >to prove/disprove the writings of these "Theosophists?" First let me explain that I was a "comparative religionist" before being acquainted with theosophy and that I share your angle completely. The problem arises, however, in a discussion, when the parts disagree as to what is authoritative teachings on these matters - and I am still chewing on this problem. >It would seem to me that if one would study the Vedas, and/or other >scriptures before arguing about who is right or wrong, we would get much >farther. I am afraid that we would probably have to skip the argument. It has recently dawned on me that a great percentage of theosophists have little or no interest in ancient writings. As much as I would like a greater body of teachings to settle various controversial points, I still feel such a case utopical. Back to your comment - yes, I feel too that we all would get further by using the model for comparative religion outlined by HPB - the terminology, the style of translation, the whole system of thought itself - and employ it to other writings. It would take a few good men (m/f) and a great amount of work though. >....but we have not pursued research comparing the contents of those >discoveries with the details given in SD. Maybe I'm mistaken but there >seems to be a Massive gap here that we should fill? A massive gap indeed. I have decided to give this line of study a try myself, and the results are fascinating. The other day I finished transliterating the Mandukya karika of Gaudapada (Shankara's teachers teacher) to faciliate word-searches, and explanations and definitions of words like Adi-Buddha, Svabhavat, Paramartha and Paratantra kept popping up. Thousands of MSS. like this have never been examined and translated from a theosophical angle, and there lies millions of man-hours in wait for interested students. Also, work along these lines may attract a few talented buddhists or advaita vedantins to theosophy and possibly fill a gap or two. It is the greatest of mysteries to me that theosophy has existed for 120 years with no serious attempts towards analyzing the ancient ideas treated of by HPB. Thank your for your no longer silent voicing, I enjoyed it! In friendship, Kim From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 24 16:51:49 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:51:49 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960724125148_369224680@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: TI Web Page Alan, Your home page??? Terror comes to the internet! Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 24 16:55:07 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:55:07 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960724125506_369225216@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching Alan, That's the problem. Religion is a human institution that brings out the worst in people. Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 24 14:18:23 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:18:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960724121240_72723.2375_FHP47-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960724121240_72723.2375_FHP47-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >I perceive that you would probably rejoice when all religions would vanish from >the face of the earth. It wouldn't be a bad idea if everyone could get to that >point of consciousness where they didn't feel a need for a priest or guru to >advise them. They would listen to their Higher Self and probably get better >answers. Maybe we'll both get our wish in the Aquarian Era. IMHO, I don't >believe that most devotional religions will survive in that time frame. It's my >hypothesis that there will a great emphasis on scientifc and inner knowledge >(gnosis). I think this is beginning to happen already - but it *has* happened in the early days of Christianity and Judaism for sure, and maybe other religions as well. Properly understood, I think that the essence of the two religions I actually know something about is *gnosis* of the kind you mention. The arguments of some of the early church fathers, for instance, was not against the gnosis, but against "gnosis, falsely so called." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Wed Jul 24 18:19:46 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:16:46 -3 From: Subject: Re:Historic Jesus Message-Id: <6F754792B@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Jerry, referring to epistle of Paul 1Tm6:13 that states that Jesus lived under Pilate, you argued two possibilities: 1) mention of Pilate may be an allusion to baptism, so without any historical value 2) 1Tm was never written by Paul, this letter is a forgery. Making so, you argues that Jesus lived one century sooner as stated in Sepher Toldoth. In this e-mail I collect some arguments to prove that even if 1 Tm was not written by Paul, surely this letter reflect his doctrine, and this letter is present in primitive canons of the church. Elaine Pagels in "Adam,Eve and the serpent",1988 chapter I,page 52 states that scolars recognice that Paul wrote only Romans,I and II Corinthians, Galatians,Filipenses,I Tessalonics and Filemon. Scholars refused the authenticity of I and II Timoty, and Titus, and there is doubts about Efesians, Colossians and II Tessalonics. Pagels reject epistle of Hebrew. (H. Koester, History and literature of early christianity,Berlim/New York, 1980 vol 2,97-147 and 261-307; M.Dibelius and H.Conzelman, The pastoral epistles, Philadelphia,1972; McDonald, The legend and the apostle). Daniel Rops a catholic historian, at LEglise des apostres et des Martyrs, Paris,1948 chapter II, page 68 refers to E.Osty that published the epistles of Paul t 1943 and states: "the most part of scholars non-christians refuse to recognice I and II Timoty, Titus, Efesians, II Tessalonics, and Hebrews the autorship of Saint Paul, even though ascribe some fragments of variable importance. There is no doubt that really there is difference of style, language and dogmatic concerns. But these differences can be explained by variability of situations and the topics broached, by conditions that Paul wrote, and prodigious maliability of his character". Rops recognices even the authenticity of Hebrews, and follows the argument of Marcel Jousse (Judahen,Judeen,Judaistre,daus le milien etnique palestinien, at magazine LEthnographic n38, 1946) and says chapter II, page 99: "Paul would have dictated the letter at aramaic, and with this text, a disciple would have written the epistle of Hebrews. The result is a work of greek technique that reveals a master at helenic language-that is, very different from others epistles from Saint Paul.". In process of martirs at Scili, about 180 AD at Africa, one accused, called Esperato, when interrogated about some books that were find with him, he said that it were the "holy books and epistles of Paul, a just". (Rops,253 and Hanozin, Les geste des martyrs, Paris,1935). The fourteen epistles of Paul can be found in most of primitive canons of the church. The canon Muratori, considered the first extant of NT canon, published at 1740, is a manuscript that date century VI or VII. This document is a catalog written around 200 at Rome. It relates the canon of the church of Rome, that is exactly the same of today's canon (with exception of epistles of Peter and James). Many others canons also includes ALL 14 epistles of St Paul: epistle of Athanasius taken from the XXXIX festal epistle (Found translated in Vol.IV, of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (2d series), pp. 551 and 552.) Augustine, On Christian Doctrine,II,8 (397A.D). Synod of Laodicea (343-381AD) canon LX. (This Canon is of most questionable genuineness and rejects Revelations of John), Council of Carthage, 397 canon XXIV., Council of Hippo, 393 Canon xxxvj, Eusebius of Caesarea 340 (Ecclesiastic History III,XXV - After them is to be placed, if it really seem proper,the Apocalypse of John, concerning which we shall give the different opinions at the proper time. These then belong among the accepted writings.Among the disputed writings, which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called the second and third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name), Codex Vaticanus (350) and Codex Sinaiticus (350), Vulgata (400). Abrantes From jmeier@microfone.net Wed Jul 24 18:05:20 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:05:20 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607242205.AA23659@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Abrantes et al Re:Historic Jesus As part of a thread on biblical history with Jerry H-E, Abrantes wrote: >Daniel Rops a catholic historian, at LEglise des apostres et des Martyrs, >Paris,1948 chapter II, page 68 refers to E.Osty that published the epistles >of Paul t 1943 and states: "the most part of scholars non-christians refuse >to recognice I and II Timoty, Titus, Efesians, II Tessalonics, and Hebrews >the autorship of Saint Paul, even though ascribe some fragments of variable >importance. There is no doubt that really there is difference of style, >language and dogmatic concerns (clip). Moving away from Paul but still within "Gospels of ascribed variable importance": What is the opinion of the readers of theos-l of the Gospel of St. Thomas? Jim From jmeier@microfone.net Wed Jul 24 18:47:03 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:47:03 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607242247.AA27511@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Gospel of St. Thomas hmm.. there seems to be a line missing from my earlier post to Abrantes et al: "An interesting homepage on the Gospel of St. Thomas can be accessed at http:/www/epix.net/%Emiser17/Thomas.html" I especially liked the overview given in the Thomas FAQ. Jim From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 24 23:12:09 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:12:09 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960724191208_244934128@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Ann, You're damned right I'd rejoice. Religion should be treated the same as any other contagious disease, like leprosy or smallpox, either by quarantine or innoculation. Chuck the Heretic From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 24 23:46:23 1996 Date: 24 Jul 96 19:46:23 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Why this body, planet etc.? Message-Id: <960724234622_76400.1474_HHL79-2@CompuServe.COM> >The question I have had since I was a small child is: "why am I me and not you >or someone else?" Keith, you need to read up on svabhava. I recommend G de P. >Right now I am holding with the >idea that evolution upward is the bounce after the descent into matter and that >we gain self-knowledge of our connection to the One and return to it knowing >ourselves for the first time (to paraphrase T.S. Elliot). I agree, except for the "first time" business. Virtually all mystics agree that after the Return, there is a strong sense of never really having left in the first place. D. T. Suzuki called this the Ultimate Joke--that our entire manifestation period in matter is all an illusion, and that we have always been spiritual. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 24 23:46:19 1996 Date: 24 Jul 96 19:46:19 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Sex (to Ann) Message-Id: <960724234618_76400.1474_HHL79-1@CompuServe.COM> >For several years, I subscribed to Tantra magazine, which made look at sex in a >different way and introduced me to different forms of Tantra. Unfortunately, I >haven't gotten any issues lately. I think they may gone out of business. Ann, now that you mention it, I haven't recieved one for a long time either. Jerry S. Member, TI From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 00:30:12 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:30:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <1tD38QAUAs9xEwQr@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960724191208_244934128@emout16.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960724191208_244934128@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Ann, >You're damned right I'd rejoice. Religion should be treated the same as any >other contagious disease, like leprosy or smallpox, either by quarantine or >innoculation. > Please define "Religion" in meaningful terms, Chuck. It seems to me that your use of the term is similar to the common use of "Science." There are Religions, and there are Sciences. Have you had some bad experiences at the hands of religious people? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 00:22:20 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:22:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Historic Jesus In-Reply-To: <6F754792B@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <6F754792B@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >In this e-mail I collect some arguments to prove that even if 1 Tm was not >written by Paul, surely this letter reflect his doctrine, and this >letter is present in primitive canons of the church. I have read your post with care, and it is clear to me that you wish to adhere to Roman Catholic teaching and opinion in your subject matter, so that what appears at first sight to be serious discussion is in fact polemical, and intended to support particular sectarian doctrines. Under such circumstances, although I can refer to the same source material, and other material not so far used, there would seem to be little point in continuing discussions. Regretfully, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 00:24:18 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:24:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Gospel of Thomas In-Reply-To: <199607242205.AA23659@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607242205.AA23659@vnet.net>, Jim Meier writes >What is the opinion of the readers of theos-l of the Gospel of St. Thomas? 2 penn'orth: Clearly a collection of sayings which while it may not be source material which predates the existing gospels, probably derives from other source material which does! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 00:16:06 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:16:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching In-Reply-To: <960724125506_369225216@emout12.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960724125506_369225216@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >That's the problem. Religion is a human institution that brings out the >worst in people. Almost anything can and does bring out the worst in people. Commerce, Industry, Shopkeeping, joining Theosophical Societies, attending conventions [:-)]. All these things can also bring out the best in people. Many people, members of religions or not, have given their lives for their friends, and even for complete strangers. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 24 20:01:39 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:01:39 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F68123.73E1@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TS Toga References: <960724144747_73632.105_FHV90-2@CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank J. Dyer wrote: > > Regarding the discussion of whether the Society has a yoga, I recall a quote > from HPB (the exact source escapes me, but perhaps some of the more scholarly > list members will be able to supply it) to the effect that Theosophy itself is a > form of karma yoga blended with jnana yoga. IOW, the Society's emphasis on right > action is virtually identical to karma yoga (see Vivekananda's book on the > subject, for example) and the study of Theosophy leads to jnana yoga type > realizations. > > Perhaps the party who inquired about particular methods was placing an undue > emphasis on the induction of trance or samadhi states. My view of the effect of > studying Theosophy is that it produces significant change in the entire > constitution of the individual over a very long term period, similar to some of > the metaphors contained in the Dhammapada regarding long term change. One > acquires a sense of what P.D. Ouspensky calls "scale", an awareness of the > vastness of the processes that we are involved with and of the extreme > limitations associated with the confinement of consciousness to a physical > vehicle. With this comes a relaxed attitude toward time. We are no longer > frustrated at not seeing dramatic results within six months...a year...a life. > There is a certainty that we are within the sphere of influence of a profound > and timeless process of development with which we now consciously choose to > cooperate. > > --Frank DyerAs the party referred to :-) I couldn't agree with you more. what I was asking about was a Theosophical way before the above mentioned effects become a part of life. Telling an inquirer that if they take up study of theosophy they will have internal changes in a few years time that are recognisably different from how that person feels now, doesn't seem to inspire them to take up that study but something they can get hold of right at the time of inquiry, interests them more. Personally I have experienced the gradual change of awareness that you speak off through a devoted study of theosophical literature over the past few years. Bee From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 25 01:53:18 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Castaneda In-Reply-To: <199607231137.AA04773@angel.elektra.ru> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Macnev Uri wrote: > Maxim Osinovsky writes: > > > theosophists it's immensely more important to ask what's their > > importance for the planetary evolution. > > I agree with you. > For this reason I want to know a opinion about books: > "The fire from within" and "The power of silence". > Moreover I think that planetary evolution require evolution of everyone man. > We must begin from oneself. I hold Castaneda'c books in high regard. I did not try to practice the techniques described by Castaneda, but his (or don Juan's) teachings put a definite mark on my perception. The teachings deserve some attention on the part of theosophists as they belong to essentially same category--teachings of LIBERATION. I find much in common between Castaneda and e.g. Vivekananda--both offer a way leading to freedom. Moreover, I know people who assimilated basic ideas of the way of liberation from Castaneda books, so it looks they offer another window of opportunity, hence their significance for planetary evolution. It remains to be seen if particulars of C.'s teachings are of great value, too. I also know people who tried to practice Castaneda's techniques on their own; to my knowledge, there was no evidence of substantial success, although of course many were able to pick scattered fragment of the teaching and implement them. However, new developments (Tensegrity etc.) may take the whole thing closer to real life--will see... It's true that we shall do our own howework. However, Castaneda's books show the way of spiritual development in a GROUP setting, which is a very interesting aspect of the teachings. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 25 02:54:10 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:54:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: TS yoga Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just sharing information... If we agree that practical theosophy is about making contact with the Higher Self (and with the Masters via the Self), then search for a yoga labeled a'TS yoga' may be misguided--any yoga offering means of contacting the Self will work. However, it is meaningful to ask whether theosophy offers new and novel means of making the contact. (For the purposes of this discussion, I will mean by 'theosophy' any teaching belonging to the same tradition as HPB, i.e. given out or directly inspired by the Masters.) I think the answer is "yes." I can see at least two such systems: 1. Agni Yoga, given out by Master M., (14 vols. published by Roerichs) is an INTENSELY PRACTICAL system. It may be called 'yoga of energy,' or more exactly 'yoga of mind-controlled energy." These two terms--mind (mental development) and energy (subtle energies)--are key words of the new yoga. (Un)fortunately it is so refined compared with other similar systems (e.g. raja yoga) that most people apparently get in trouble trying to discern in it some kind of yoga at all. 2. Alice Bailey books--I mean those channeled from Master D.K.--promise essentially the same way. I say 'promise,' because--unlike Agni Yoga--AB's books are VERY heavy on theory and contain rather little 'exercises.' But then again, the source of trouble is reader's mentality and his expectations, since the AB material is very practical in some sense. Fortunately for those interested, Arcane School founded by AB offers a complete correspondence course of studies and practice spanning over at least 10 years. Other novel approaches along similar lines include: 1. Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga. It is essentially identical with theosophy. I possess a valuable text on integral yoga which I hope to post in a few days. 2. Sufi teachings as they have leaked through Gourdjieff. Less known to a Western seeker are some other systems. Although not new and novel, they may offer valuable insights to a theosophical seeker: 1. Eastern Christian yoga: Philokalia, Starets Siluan (not translated into English), hesychasm,... 2. Kashmir Shaivism (see recent books by Mark Dyczkowski, Andre Padoux, and other SUNY publications). This is pure esoterism offering what may be called a 'phonetic key to Secret Doctrine.' 3. Tibetan Yoga should be very important to a theosophical seeker, and this is for several reasons. However, I believe it is unusable by Westerners, at least as it is offered now by Tibetan lamas. This is mostly because of a very specific guru-disciple relationship model imposed by the lamas on their Western students--the model being completely out of tune with the western mentality. 4. And, of course, such classics as Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Bhagavadgita, Shankara, and so forth. To sum it up, there is some good choice for someone who wants to study and practice in the spirit of theosophy. Just a reminder: if theosophy is really a universal Wisdom-Religion, it is OK to freely borrow useful stuff from all the systems acknowledging spiritual evolution. Max From blafoun@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 24 15:49:29 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:49:29 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607241549.IAA13033@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Just testing Olcott=92s account of meeting the Master K.H at Lahore is to be found in the third volume of Olcott=92s OLD DIARY LEAVES: "I was sleeping in my tent, the night of the 19th, when I rushed back towards external consciousness on feeling a hand laid on me. The camp being on the open plain, and beyond the protection of the Lahore Police, my first animal instinct was to protect myself from a possible religious fanatical assassin, so I clutched the stranger by the upper arms, and asked him in Hindustani who he was and what he wanted. It was all done in an instant, and I held the man tight, as would one who might be attacked the next moment and have to defend his life. But the next moment a kind, sweet voice said: =91Do you not know me? Do you not remember me?=92 It was the voice of the Master K.H. . . .I relaxed my hold on his arms, joined my palms in reverential salutation, and wanted to jump out of bed to show him respect. But his hand and voice stayed me, and after a few sentences had been exchanged, he took my left hand in his, gathered the fingers of his right into the palm, and stood quiet beside my cot, from which I could see his divinely benignant face by the light of the lamp that burned on a packing-case at his back. Presently I felt some soft substance forming in my hand, and the next minute the Master laid his kind hand on my forehead, uttered a blessing, and left my half of the large tent to visit Mr. W.T. Brown, who slept in the other half behind a canvas screen that divided the tent into two rooms. When I had time to pay attention to myself, I found myself holding in my left hand a folded paper enwrapped in a silken cloth. To go to the lamp, open and read it, was naturally my first impulse. I found it to be a letter of private counsel. . . On hearing an exclamation from=85[Brown=92s] side of the screen, I went in there and he showed me a silk-wrapped letter of like appearance to mine though of different contents, which he said had been given him much as mine had been to me, and which we read together. . . .The next evening. . .we two and Damodar sat in my tent, at 10 o=92clock, waiting for an expected visit from Master K.H. . . .We sat= on chairs at the back of the tent so as not to be observed from the camp: the moon was in its last quarter and had not risen. After some waiting we heard and saw a tall Hindu approaching from the side of the open plain. He came to within a few yards of us and beckoned Damodar to come to him, which he did. He told him that the Master would appear within a few minutes, and that he had some business with Damodar. It was a pupil of Master K.H. Presently we saw the latter coming from the same direction, pass his pupil. . .and stop in front of our group, now standing and saluting in the Indian fashion, some yards away. Brown and I kept our places, and Damodar went and conversed for a few minutes with the Teacher, after which he returned to us and the king-like visitor walked away. I heard his footsteps on the ground. . . .Before retiring, when I was writing my Diary, the pupil lifted the *portiere*, beckoned to me, and pointed to the figure of his Master [K.H.], waiting for me out on the plain in the starlight. I went to him, we walked off to a safe place at some distance where intruders need not be expected, and then for about a half-hour he told me what I had to know. . . .There were no miracles done at the interview. . .just two men talking together, a meeting, and a parting when the talk was over. . . ." (pp. 37-39, 43-45) = =20 From liesel@dreamscape.com Thu Jul 25 12:10:32 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:10:32 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607251317.JAA06096@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: CGJung on "The Way" I just found what to me is a profound insight while I was reading CGJung's biography. Thought I'd share it with you, in case what he says hadn't occurred to you either, as it hadn't to me. "The 'way' is not upward-going straight line, f.i. from earth to heaven or from matter to spirit, but rather a circumambulatio of, and an approximation to the centrum. We are not liberated by leaving something behind but only by fulfilling our task as mixta composita, ie human beings between the opposites." From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 00:51:49 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:51:49 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: True Religion Mime-Version: 1.0 True Religion The word 'religion' is thought to come from the Latin 'religio,' to bond, and it is without doubt a fact that one of the main attractions of religion for individuals is its ability to bring people together in a common context of fellowship and trust. Trust, after all, is another word for faith. It also offers two other essential ingredients: an assurance of survival after physical death, and a moral code which can be applied to people's lives on a day to day basis. Whatever kind of religion it may be, there is almost always some form of a shared meal, whether formal, as in the case of a Christian Eucharist, or less formal, as is the case with some other religions. In any event, the common meal is invested with a purpose, namely that of bonding its participants together in a single communion, or community of trust and belief. There are those who seek something more than this from religion, and so far there is nothing in the ingredients mentioned which cannot be provided without the need for either 'deity' or 'spirituality.' Essentially, though, it seems that human nature requires - or *recognises* - a spiritual dimension to life, both in this world and beyond it. As for 'God,' well, if we can accept the use of the term as relating at least to the *fact* of being as an eternal phenomenon, and we can appreciate the view of both the Christian Church Fathers and the Jewish 'Hasidim that anthropomorphism cannot be attribute to 'God' (other than as a convenience for ease of *human* reference) then we can perhaps begin to see that there is a constant state - and flow - of cosmic *intelligence* at work in the universe. It follows that the power and strength of such intelligence, sustaining and inhabiting all of the visible and invisible creation, is of such an order that the familiar terms used by religions - majesty, almighty, and so on - might even be inadequate. Yet we ourselves *share* in this awesome intelligence, and are ourselves part of it, even in these crude animal frames to which we point and say "I" when the truth of our own being is as eternal in its essence as that of 'God,' the "Eternal Being-ness" rendered as 'Yahweh' or 'Jehovah' in English bibles, an 'Eternal Life' that permeates the entire universe and all that lives. Only a *recognition* - not a blind belief in a doctrine or dogma - of the essential need for true religion can bring humanity together as a unity, a true "image of God" which is every bit as diverse as the elements which make up the stars, galaxies, and inter-stellar spaces of the visible universe, and yet which, while recognising the needs of the individual, acknowledges that without each other, the individuals are as nothing, and could not survive for a single iota of time. As *true* religion has always said, we humans need to wake up to the *reality* of 'God.' Paying intellectual lip-service to an idea or concept, or a 'god' made in a human image, leads only to conflict and misery. True religion is a genuine bonding of a real human family, a family which is the human race itself. Nothing less will do. There is no religion higher than truth - and truth is a matter of experience, not opinion. Alan Bain, 1992. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Thu Jul 25 03:23:20 1996 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 23:23:20 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607250520.XAA07272@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: web pages > > >For TI members and general surfers, the URL below now has *four* links. >One to Chuck Cosimano's DIY page, one to TSA, one to words of wisdom by >me, and one to Martin Euser's link on Spirit/WWW. Good to see that Theosophy is growingon the web! How are the theosophical online books going to be linked in? (Like VOS for example, or Key to Theosophy) Bjorn From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 25 05:39:31 1996 Date: 25 Jul 96 01:39:31 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Theos-l Drive-Thru (not a serious post) Message-Id: <960725053930_74024.3352_BHT114-1@CompuServe.COM> >The question I have had since I was a small child is: "why am I me and not you >or someone else?" Keith, you need to read up on svabhava. I recommend G de P. Jerry S. I am sitting here after running around all day and cannot get my higher mind to function and should be silent, but..... I am thinking about svabhaba as the beauty-intelligence which is guiding the manifest from the unmanifest and cannot think of one thing beautiful or intelligent, so I would like to playfully, not critically, add a little dramatic moment for Chuck and Alan, respectively and respectfully, but not in that order! Stoping for my fast food (Jack in the Box) fast money (ATM), fast relaxation (cable TV). I decided I only had time for a quick trip tonight through the drive thru at theos-l. Imagine, no!, visualize, if you can: Static-filled voice heard over a cheap speaker: Welcome to theos-l! May I take your order? Keith from cyber-car: Yes, I would like an order of svabhva. Voice: Would you like Tibetan or Sanscrit secret sauce with that. Keith: Hold the Tibetan and give me a Purucker shake! Voice: We have a two for 99 cents special - instant enlightment - your choice of nirvana or heavenly flavored. Keith: My kama-manas is acting up today. I just took a big dose of purtiy, renunciation and abstinence. I don't think I could digest it. Voice: We have frozen enlightenment absolutely karma-free to microwave later! Keith: Give me the family size. Voice: Drive thru please. Your order is waiting at the window. I like fast food and I almost never cook at home. I am looking forward to feasting on the Voice of the Silence in a sit down, take your shoes off dinner. I want to savor each course. I want to have MY DINNER WITH ANDRE and KPAUl, Ann, Baltimore and others and maybe with the picture of HPB with her round staring eyes peering down from some plane or other. I am hungry for something that will stick to my atma-buddhi. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Keith Price From saf@angel.elektra.ru Thu Jul 25 05:47:18 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:46:18 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607250947.AA08469@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Castaneda Hello Maxim Osinovsky writes: > However, new developments (Tensegrity etc.) > may take the whole thing closer to real life--will see... Yes. Moreover the tensegrity is very similar to the chinese Chea Goon (I don't know how write it correctly in English) > show the way of spiritual development in a GROUP setting, which is a very > interesting aspect of the teachings. It's true. Uri /Russia From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Thu Jul 25 09:15:30 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:12:30 -3 From: Subject: Historic Jesus Message-Id: <15E5D44C7B@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Even some herectics recogniced the authorship of pauline epistles. Gibbon I,LIV,329 talk about Paulicians (century VII), maybe with some conection with marcionites, received [the original texts of pauline epistle] and accepted ALL fourteen epistles. Follows the text: [The gnostics who had distracted the infancy, were opressed by the greatness and authority of the church. Instead of emulating or surpassing the wealth, learning and number of catholics, their obscure remnant was driven from the capitals of the East and West, and confined to the villages and mountains along the borders of the Euphrates. Some vestiges of the marcionites may be detected in the fifth century, but the numerous sects were finally lost in the odious name of manichaeans, and these herectics, who presumed to reconcile the doctrines of Zoroaster and Christ were pursued by two religions with equal and unrelated hatred. Under the grandson of Heraclius, in the neighbourhood of Samosata, more famous for the birth of Lucian than for the title of a syrian kingdom, a reformer arose esteemed by the Paulicians as the chosen messenger of truth. In his humbling dwelling of Mananalis, Constantine entertained a deacon who returned from syrian captivity, and received the inestimable gift of the New Testament which was already concealed from the vulgar by the prudence of the greek and perhaps of the gnostic clergy. These books became the measure of his studies and the rule of his faith, and catholics, who dispute his interpretation, acknowledge that his text was genuine and sincere. But he attacked himself with peculiar devoton to the writings and character of St Paul...In the gospel (1)and epistles of St Paul his faithful followers investigated the creed of primitive christianity, and whatever might be the sucess, a protestant reader (2) will applaud the spirity of the inquiry. But if the Scriptures of the Paulicians were pure, they were not perfect. Their founder rejected the two epistles of St Peter, the apostle of circumcision, whose dispute with their favourite (3), for the observance of the law could not easily be forgiven. They ageed with their gnostic brethen in the universal contempt for the Old Testament, the books of Moses and the prophets, which have been consacrated by the decrees of the catholic church]. (1) gospel of Luke, the disciple of St Paul, (2) Gibbon was protestant, (3) St Paul. Abrantes From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 25 14:16:36 1996 Date: 25 Jul 96 10:16:36 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Sex (to Ann) Message-Id: <960725141635_72723.2375_FHP81-1@CompuServe.COM> Ann: >>For several years, I subscribed to Tantra magazine. . . Unfortunately, I >>haven't gotten any issues lately. I think they may gone out of business. Jerry S.: >Ann, now that you mention it, I haven't recieved one for a long time either. The last Tantra I have is issue #11 from 1995. In June I received a Help! letter from Gnosis, because they were in financial trouble. The letter also mentioned that Whole Earth Review and Spirit Speaks had gone under and that Quest was in trouble. Perhaps we'll all soon be viewing our favorite mags on the Web rather than getting them in the mail, considering the cost of paper and postage these days. - Ann E. Bermingham From ramadoss@eden.com Thu Jul 25 14:50:15 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:50:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Sex (to Ann) In-Reply-To: <960725141635_72723.2375_FHP81-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > had gone under and that Quest was in trouble. Perhaps we'll all soon be viewing > our favorite mags on the Web rather than getting them in the mail, considering > the cost of paper and postage these days. Hi, Ann: You are right. E-magazines are the wave of the future. It will save a lot of trees as well. Poor and rich will have equal access to all the material in the world! _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 25 15:14:20 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:14:20 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960725111420_163946501@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching Alan, Giving your life for something is not a good thing. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 25 15:16:31 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:16:31 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960725111630_163946532@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Alan, I define religion as institutionalized spirituality, and those who ascribe to it should be. I have never had anything but bad experiences with them and neither have my friends. They have damned near driven my girlfriend to suicide. Chuck the Heretic From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 25 16:44:02 1996 Date: 25 Jul 96 12:44:02 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Teachings Message-Id: <960725164402_72723.2375_FHP51-1@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >I define religion as institutionalized spirituality, and those who ascribe to >it should be.. . Consider the possibility that those who ascribe to religions are *already* in institutions. confinements made by mutual agreement and based on exchange. Peace of mind and instruction in God's laws for donations and volunteer time at bingo games. Of course, there's that slight charge of one's freedom, as well. But some people want the rules listed and spelled out for them. For them, freedom is a frightening thing. Where do I speak from? From being raised in the Roman CAtholic church, but always being a Teflon Catholic. Most of it slid right off of me. I always liked the rituals, though. - Ann E. Bermingham From theos@sure.net Thu Jul 25 21:16:58 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607252116.OAA17559@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Atlantis et.all In our interpretation of Atlantis, are we forgetting that H.P.B. emphasized "Symbolism" as a key to understanding her writings. Is the following a possible interpretation for the atlantis legend: a) destrustion by fire = Purification, similar to the way a metal is refined from an ore. b) sinking = passing from a manvantara so that the remains, from the processing (the Dross) have passed away? This is just speculation, I know. But isn't it possible, in addition the myth of a REAL adlantis, that there are spiritual overtones? James From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Jul 25 23:18:14 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:18:14 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960725191813_164278516@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-l Drive-Thru (not a serious post) Keith, You really have to try the sanskritburger. Chuck the Heretic From euser@euronet.nl Thu Jul 25 23:23:43 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:23:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607252323.BAA17208@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - reply to Ozren Ozren>Thank you for your respond Martin. I think you're doing a great job Informing people about Vitvan's material. I downloaded all of the material my self and I'm now slowly reading it. About the ;si.+ I live in the country called Slovenia witch use to be part of Yugoslavia but it s an independent country now. I hope that justifies my bad English. It's great that Theosophy gets some attention from people from Slovenia through the internet! Do you have TS lodges in Slovenia? Your English is ok. If anyone doesn't understand a particular thing you say s/he can ask you. That's a part of the communicative process and this is an international list so people will take that into account. >Regards > Ozren Regards Martin From pmmkien@main.com Fri Jul 26 00:34:40 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:34:40 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607260026.TAA11022@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: The Masters and Science K. Paul and Chuck indicate ( sorry for paraphrasing but my computer only gets this 'digest thing' and I haven't figured out how to undigest it)... that the scientific discrepancies in the ML can be explained because the Masters are neither physical scientists nor omniscient. I agree with that statement. However -- it raises even more disturbing questions. Here am I, a Master receiving Sinnett's ridiculous questions. My reply would be (following the above argument) the following: "My Dear Sinnett, I am neither a physical scientist nor omniscient so I can't possibly answer your questions. How am I to know what the sun is made of, or the speed of light or the mechanism for heating the Earth? Go ask your own scientists such things. Sure I can give you my clairvoyant guess but it's probably wrong. As for Atlantis - hey, we're talking about a myth which is what Plato said it was all along. This is occult history - mythology - not physical history. Atlantis is in the same class as Shamballa (located near Mount Meru) so don't go looking for it in the Atlantic." BUT - that was not the answer. The writer instead has the air of someone who claims to know these things and claims to know the answers to Sinnett's questions. Thus I find the the following to be likely scenarios: I. The letters were written by HPB. Like the ML writer, she made similar pronouncements on science - claiming often to know better than the scientists of the day. II. The ML writer was deliberately setting him/her self up as an authority on science in order to somehow further Sinnett's spiritual growth. III. The ML writer was part of a "conspiracy" on the part of the Masters carried out for the benefit of our planet to combat materialism (or to some other mysterious end) that involved disemenating a false science called theosophy. I find scenario II unlikely, as I cannot comprehend what spiritual benefit Sinnett could derive from the elliptic answers that he got to his questions. Unless it was, so that he should quit bugging the Masters and rely on his own horse sense, because they are only feeding him nonsense. If scenario (I) is excluded because the physical evidence (which I haven't studied) is against it, we're left with scenario (III). Actually I find no difficulty with scenario III and in the possibility that theosophy is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by certain individuals for the good of humanity - and that HPB could have been an unsuspecting victim in this scheme. But in that case, I wouldn't bother studying the material at least not the 19th century stuff, unless it can be independently verified. Never mind the scientific pronouncements, even the occult teaching would be suspect. I suspect that somewhere in Tibet, some individuals are right now having quite a good laugh. Any thoughts? Paul K. From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 23:31:15 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:31:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960725111630_163946532@emout10.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960725111630_163946532@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >I define religion as institutionalized spirituality, I don't. > and those who ascribe to >it should be. There is a case to answer given your definition. > I have never had anything but bad experiences with them and >neither have my friends. They have damned near driven my girlfriend to >suicide. I would comment that anything which claims to be, or represents itself as (either explicitly or implicitly) as intitutionalized spirituality can and does do serious harm to many people. I would also comment that spirituality cannot, IMO, be institutionalized. So once again I say that what you are describing as religion is, in fact, nothing of the kind, but a human invention for the purposes of people-control. I wrote a small booklet called "True Religion" which I will try to dig out, revise, and upload. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 23:22:27 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:22:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Theos-l Drive-Thru (not a serious post) In-Reply-To: <960725053930_74024.3352_BHT114-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960725053930_74024.3352_BHT114-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I am hungry for something >that will stick to my atma-buddhi. >Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! >Keith Price .. paramedics in white coats were last seen rushing to Keith's place. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 23:19:59 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:19:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: web pages In-Reply-To: <199607250520.XAA07272@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607250520.XAA07272@alpinet.net>, Bjorn Roxendal writes >Good to see that Theosophy is growingon the web! How are the theosophical online >books going to be linked in? (Like VOS for example, or Key to Theosophy) > This has yet to be worked out, though I just sent Martin Euser the parts of "Ocean of Theosophy" that he was lacking. He may be able to put it onto his own Web site, which is already linked to the TI web page below. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From jhe@toto.csustan.edu Fri Jul 26 01:55:41 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:55:41 -0700 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Message-Id: <9607260155.AA23584@toto.csustan.edu> Subject: re: Historic Jesus Abrantes: >Jerry, referring to epistle of Paul 1Tm6:13 that states that >Jesus lived under Pilate, you argued two possibilities: 1) >mention of Pilate may be an allusion to baptism, so without any >historical value 2) 1Tm was never written by Paul, this letter >is a forgery. Making so, you argues that Jesus lived one century >sooner as stated in Sepher Toldoth. JHE It appears that my meaning did not come through, so I will try to clarify here. My statement was that according to a consensus of opinion of most theologians: 1. 1Tm was written after 90 A.D., and most probably in the second century. Therefore, with this late date, it can only echo traditions already established. It is written too late to be contemporary with the accepted dates of the Biblical Jesus. 2. 1Tm is a pastoral epistle--that is, set of instructions on administrating churches and was most likely written by an early Church Father and attributed to Paul. However, that does not make the letter a "forgery." In those times it was common to write important works under the name of a respected "disciple of Jesus" in order to give the document greater authenticity. Therefore, when writer attributes the letter to Paul he (she?) is saying that it was written under inspiration gained from knowing Paul; gained from reading his letters; or more likely, gained from visions believed to have come from Paul. Regarding my mention of Pilate and Baptism, I was only mentioning that this reference appears to be an allusion to an earlier formula statement concerning Baptism written at a time when Pilate was seen in a different light and the tradition of Pilate giving Jesus over to his crucifixion was not yet established. Regarding whether or not Jesus lived one century sooner, I never meant to infer that the passage in 1Tm proves or disproves this to be so. My argument is that the passage does not necessarily put the historical Jesus as a contemporary of Pilate because: 1. of its late date of writing. Remember, The Jesus/Pilate story already evolved by 90 A.D. 2. because it was not written by Paul. Rather, it was written by someone whose aim was to formulate traditions (not history) into a pastoral work. Whether the doctrine is consistent with Paul is not relevant to the issue of Jesus' historicity, as far as I see. Did I miss something? What I see as relevant to Jesus' historicity is that Paul's authentic writings do not put Jesus in an historical period. Remember, that in an earlier post I pointed out that it was of vital importance to understand that HPB writes of an historical Jesus, a Biblical Jesus, and a theological Jesus. HPB does not blend these three together. The historical Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible; the Jesus of the Bible is not the theological Jesus; the theological Jesus is not the historical Jesus. Abrantes: >In this e-mail I collect some arguments to prove that even if 1 >Tm was not written by Paul, surely this letter reflect his >doctrine, and this letter is present in primitive canons of the >church. JHE And so it may reflect Paul's doctrines. But my argument is that the letters of Paul that are generally agreed to be authentic do not place Jesus historically. Abrantes (quoting Pagels): >Elaine Pagels in "Adam,Eve and the serpent",1988 chapter I,page >52 states that scolars recognice that Paul wrote only Romans,I >and II Corinthians, Galatians,Filipenses,I Tessalonics and >Filemon. Scholars refused the authenticity of I and II Timoty, >and Titus, and there is doubts about Efesians, Colossians and II >Tessalonics. Pagels reject epistle of Hebrew. (H. Koester, >History and literature of early christianity,Berlim/New York, >1980 vol 2,97-147 and 261-307; M.Dibelius and H.Conzelman, The >pastoral epistles, Philadelphia,1972; McDonald, The legend and >the apostle). JHE Sounds like Pagels reflects majority opinion here-- i.e. 1Tm was not written by Paul. Abrantes (quoting Rops): >Daniel Rops a catholic historian, at LEglise des apostres et des >Martyrs, Paris,1948 chapter II, page 68 refers to E.Osty that >published the epistles of Paul t 1943 and states: "the most part >of scholars non-christians refuse to recognice I and II Timoty, >Titus, Efesians, II Tessalonics, and Hebrews the autorship of >Saint Paul....[snip] JHE Looks like Rops agrees too. Considering your quotes, I must conclude that we are either in agreement that Paul did not write 1Tm and that this Epistle is of no value in placing Jesus historically, or I have completely missed your point. Abrantes (from a later post): >Even some herectics recogniced the authorship of pauline >epistles. Gibbon I,LIV,329 talk about Paulicians (century VII), >maybe with some conection with marcionites, received [the >original texts of pauline epistle] and accepted ALL fourteen >epistles. Follows the text: [snip]. JHE Yes, and Gibbon will also tell you that the average Roman of the VII century looked upon the great arches and grand architecture from the Imperial period (by the VII century these buildings were already falling into ruin) and believed that they were all built by giants who had lived there long ago. What I'm saying is that by the VII century, the so-called dark ages ware here in earnest. Even your own quote from Gibbon suggests this: "The gnostics who had distracted the infancy, were opressed by the greatness and authority of the church." Jerry From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 25 23:16:01 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:16:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: TS yoga In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes >Just sharing information... > >If we agree that practical theosophy is about >making contact with the >Higher Self (and with the Masters via the Self), then search for a yoga >labeled a'TS yoga' may be misguided--any yoga offering means of >contacting the Self will work. > >However, it is meaningful to ask whether theosophy offers new and novel >means of making the contact. (For the purposes of this discussion, I will >mean by 'theosophy' any teaching belonging to the same tradition as HPB, Ernest Wood, a former member of the T.S., wrote a book called, simply, Yoga, which was published in England by Pelican Books (a branch of Penguuin Books). It is kind of a standard work for English-speaking people, and I have made use of it myself on more than one occasion. I recommend this book to anyone. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 25 04:44:37 1996 Date: 25 Jul 96 00:44:37 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: VOICE OF SILENCE - LET"S HEAR IT! Message-Id: <960725044437_74024.3352_BHT174-2@CompuServe.COM> If anyone is reading this post, please contribute. Could someone (Jim Meier or anyone), post VOS to theos-roots with the glossary. I posted section 1 which seems to have a few errors. I am study this as it is all I have. I am reading it slowly and meditating on the ideas of the VOICE OF THE INNER MASTER that connects one to the ONE beyond the senses and the desires of the lower mind. I have no idea about some of the sanscrit (pseudo?) terms like Dharana. It seems like KPJ, JKP, JM, BCS and AB are interested. Let the Voice be heard in our hearts and in this group! Namaste Keith Price From poulsen@dk-online.dk Thu Jul 25 13:25:02 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:25:02 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB7A1C.0B5DF300@ppp167.dk-online.dk> Subject: Re: VOICE OF SILENCE - LET'S HEAR IT! Encoding: 16 TEXT >I have no idea about some of the sanscrit (pseudo?) terms like Dharana. >It seems like KPJ, JKP, JM, BCS and AB are interested. Let the Voice be >heard in our hearts and in this group! Keith, there is nothing pseudo-sanskritical about Dharana. Give me a little time and I will prepare a complementary glossary and notes to the "Voice of Silence". Will start in a couple of days. I will also run through the Mahayana-sutralamkara (magnum opus of Asanga/Aryasanga) for interesting parallels. Namaste :-) Kim From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Thu Jul 25 22:51:39 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 18:51:39 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607252251.SAA15095@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Let's not all talk at once So, how do we start this Voice of the Silence discussion anyway? Now that we are all on roots, what do we do? Keith, do you have any idea about how to proceed? From jmeier@microfone.net Thu Jul 25 20:13:37 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:13:37 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607260013.AA21865@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS/ascii text re: the posting on VOS on theos-roots: Back on 22 July, John Mead posted the following on theos-l: > to retrieve VOS in acsii, send an e-mail message to listserv@vnet.net containing the lines, get theos-l vos.txt get theos-l vosglos.txt the text and the glossary will then be sent to you in e-mail. peace - john e. mead > Hi Keith: Dharana -- one of the more valid (imo) criticisms of Theosophy is this tendency so many of us have to use high-falootin' Sanskrit terms (Senzar, whatever) when plain English would do just as well, communicate more clearly and in fact do everything better except that subtle feeding of the ego of the "I know Sanskrit and you don't" poster. Except, when it comes to states of consciousness, we don't really have English terms to associate with the concepts... even reading "modern" psychology texts requires a glossary: "cognitive invariant" doesn't really mean anything, either, except to a specialist in Jungian theory (or somebody who happens to be reading an article about it, like myself). In the West, we are struggling to develop a vocabulary that already exists in Eastern philosophy. I think the Western contribution is going to prove just as valid (if not more so) in the long run, but in the meantime we have to work around the limitations of our language, our experience, our whole belief structure about the nature of consciousness and the means and mechanisms of changing/expanding it. Dharana is concentration. Sustained concentration (dharana) is meditation (dhyana). That's verse 2 of Book 3 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and VOS is one of those links between theosophy (or at least, HPB) and raja-yoga. Vivekananda traces the path of concentration/meditation/samadhi-enlightenment as a matter of sequential control of the mind. He gets pretty specific, which I'm not so sure about, but all commentators on Patanjali's terms seem to agree on the *time* element as the difference between concentration and meditation. Without concentration, there can be no meditation (or, sustained concentration). VOS starts off with the requirement of sustained concentration as the essential element. I think it will be interesting to read Kim's promised glossary expansion, and I'm especially looking forward to seeing if any of the "mystical" branch of the TS/theos-l join in on this VOS discussion, for surely one of the more misunderstood writings of HPB occurs on the opening page: after starting the first paragraph with the necessity of meditation and mental control, it continues with "The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer." Jim From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 01:16:39 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:16:39 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: VOS Glossary Mime-Version: 1.0 From HTML Document : "Voice of the Silence Part One Glossary" ============================================================= (It is not possible to reproduce the HTM file exactly - A.B.) GLOSSARY TO PART I. The Voice of the Silence. [1] (1) The Pali word Iddhi is the synonym of the Sanskrit Siddhis, or psychic faculties, the abnormal powers in man. There are two kinds of Siddhis. One group which embraces the lower, coarse, psychic and mental energies; the other is one which exacts the highest training of Spiritual powers. Says Krishna in Shrimad Bhagavat [Bhagavad Gita]: "He who is engaged in the performance of Yoga, who has subdued his senses and who has concentrated his mind in me (Krishna), such Yogis all the Siddhis stand ready to serve." (2) The "Soundless Voice", or the "Voice of the Silence". Literally perhaps this would read "Voice in the Spiritual Sound" as Nada is the equivalent word in Sanskrit for the Senzar term. (3) Dharana is the intense and perfect concentration of the mind upon some one interior object, accompanied by complete abstraction from everything pertaining to the external Universe, or the world of the senses. [3] (4) The "great Master" is the term used by Lanoos or Chelas to indicate the HIGHER SELF. It is the equivalent of Avalokitesvara, and the same as Adi-Budha with the Buddhist Occultists, ATMA the "Self" (the Higher Self) with the Brahmans, and CHRISTOS with the ancient Gnostics. (5) Soul is used here for the Human Ego or Manas, that which is referred to in our Occult septenary division as the "Human Soul" in contradistinction to the Spiritual and Animal Souls. [4] (6) Maha-Maya, "Great Illusion", the objective Universe. (7) Sakkayaditthi, "delusion" of personality. (8) Attavada, the heresy of the belief in Soul, or rather in the separateness of Soul or Self from the One Universal, Infinite SELF. [5] (9) The Tattvajnyani is the "knower" or discriminator of the principles in nature and in man; and Atmajnyani is the knower of ATMA, or the Universal ONESELF. (10) Kala Hansa, the "Bird" or Swan. Says the Nadavindupanishad (Rig Veda) translated by the Kumbakonam Theosophical Society - "The syllable A is considered to be its (the bird Hansa's) right wing, U, its left, M, its tail, and the Ardha-matra (half metre) is said to be its head". (11) Eternity with the Orientals has quite another signification than it has with us. It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the duration of a Maha-Kalpa or a period of 311,040,000,000,000 years. (12) Says the same Nadavindu, "A Yogi who bestrides the Hansa (thus contemplates on AUM) is not affected by Karmic influences or crores of sins." (13) Give up the life of physical personality if you would live in spirit. [6] (14) The three states of consciousness, which are Jagrat, the waking; Svapna, the dreaming; and Sushupti, the deep sleeping state. These three Yogi conditions lead to the fourth, or - (15) The Turiya , that beyond the dreamless state, the one above all, a state of high spiritual consciousness. (16) Some Oriental Mystics locate seven planes of being, the seven spiritual lokas or worlds within the body of Kala Hansa, the Swan out of Time and Space, convertible into the Swan in Time, when it becomes Brahma instead of Brahman. (17) The phenomenal world of senses and of terrestrial consciousness - only. (18) The astral region, the psychic world of supersensuous perceptions and of deceptive sights - the world of mediums. It is the great "Astral Serpent" of Eliphas Levi. No blossom plucked in those regions has ever yet been brought down on earth without its serpent coiled around the stem. It is the world of the GreatIllusion. [7] (19) The region of the full Spiritual Consciousness, beyond which there is no longer danger for him who has reached it. (20) The Initiate, who leads the disciple, through the Knowledge given to him, to his spiritual or second birth, is called the Father, Guru or Master. [8] (21) Ajnyana is ignorance or non-wisdom, the opposite of Knowledge, Jnyana. (22) Mara is in exoteric religions a demon, an Asura, but in Esoteric Philosophy it is personified temptation through men's vices, and translated literally means "that which kills" the Soul. It is represented as a King (of the Maras) with a crown in which shines a jewel of such lustre that it blinds those who look at it, this lustre referring, of course, to the fascination exercised by vice upon certain natures. [9] (23) The inner chamber of the Heart, called in Sanskrit Brahma-pura. The "fiery power" is Kundalini. (24) The "Power" and the "World-Mother" are names given to Kundalini - one of the mystic "Yogi powers". It is Buddhi considered as an active instead of a passive principle (which it is generally, when regarded only as the vehicle or casket of the Supreme Spirit ATMA). It is an electro-spiritual force, a creative power which when aroused into action can as easily kill as it can create. [10] (25) Keshara or "sky-walker" or "goer." As explained in the sixth Adhyaya of that king of mystic works the Dnyaneshvari - the body of the Yogi becomes as one formed of the wind; as "a cloud from which limbs have sprouted out", after which "he (the Yogi) beholds the things beyond the seas and stars; he hears the language of the Devas and comprehends it, and perceives what is passing in the mind of the ant." [11] (26) Vina is an Indian stringed instrument like a lute. (27) The six principles; meaning when the lower personality is destroyed and the inner individuality is merged into and lost in the Seventh or Spirit. (28) The disciple is one with Brahma or ATMA. (29) The astral form produced by the Kamic principle, the Kama-rupa, or body of desire. (30) Manasa-rupa. The first refers to the astral or personal Self; the second to the individuality, or the reincarnating Ego, whose consciousness on our plane, or the lower Manas, has to be paralyzed. [12] (31) Kundalini is called the "Serpentine" or annular power on account of its spiral-like working or progress in the body of the ascetic developing the power in himself. It is an electric fiery occult or Fohatic power, the great pristine force, which underlies all organic and inorganic matter. (32) This "Path" is mentioned in all the Mystic Works. As Krishna says in the Dnyaneshvari: "When this Path is beheld... whether one sets out to the bloom of the east or to the chambers of the west, without moving, O holder of the bow, is the travelling in this road. In this path, to whatever place one would go, that place one's own self becomes". "Thou art the Path", is said to the Adept Guru, and by the latter to the disciple, after initiation. "I am the way and the Path", says another MASTER. [14] (33) Adeptship -- the "blossom of Bodhisattva". (34) Tanha-- "the will to live", the fear of death and love for life, that force or energy which causes rebirth. [18] (35) The mystic sounds, or the melody, heard by the ascetic at the beginning of his cycle of meditation, called Anahad-shabd by the Yogis. [19] (36) This means that in the sixth stage of development which, in the Occult system, is Dharana, every sense as an individual faculty has to be "killed" or paralyzed on this plane, passing into and merging with the Seventh sense, the most spiritual. (37) See page 1, footnote No. 3. (38) Every stage of development in Raja-Yoga is symbolised by a geometrical figure. This one is the sacred Triangle and precedes Dharana. The is the sign of the high Chelas, while another kind of triangle is that of high Initiates. It is the symbol "I" discoursed upon by Buddha and used by him as a symbol of the embodied form of Tathagata when released from the three methods of the Prajna. Once the preliminary and lower stages passed, the disciple sees no more the but the -- the abbreviation of the --, the full Septenary. Its true form is not given here, as it is almost sure to be pounced upon by some charlatans and-- desecrated in its use for fraudulent purposes. [20] (39) The star that burns overhead is "the star of initiation". The caste-mark of Shaivas, or devotees of the sect of Shiva, the great patron of all Yogis, is a black round spot, the symbol of the Sun now, perhaps, but that of the star of initiation, in Occultism, in days of old. (40) The basis, upadhi, of the ever unreachable FLAME, so long as the ascetic is still in this life. (41) Dhyana is the last stage before the final on this Earth, unless one becomes a full MAHATMA. As said already, in this state the Raj Yogi is yet spiritually conscious of Self, and the working of his higher principles. One step more, and he will be on the plane beyond the Seventh, the fourth according to some Schools.These, after the practice of Pratyehara-- a preliminary training, in order to control one's mind and thoughts--count Dhasena, Dhyana and Samadhiand embrace the three under the generic name of SANNYAMA. (42) Samadhi is the state in which the ascetic loses the consciousness of every individuality, including his own. He becomes-- the ALL. [21] (43) The "four modes of truth" are, in Northern Buddhism: Ku, "suffering or misery"; Tu, the assembling of temptations; Mu, "their destructions"; and Tau, the "path". The "five impediments" are the knowledge of misery, truth about human frailty, oppressive restraints, and the absolute necessity of separation from all the ties of passion, and even of desires. The "Path of Salvation" is the last one. (44) At the portal of the "asssembling", the King of the Maras, the Maha-Mara, stands trying to blind the candidate by the radiance of his "Jewel". [22] (45) This is the fourth "Path" out of the five paths of rebirth which lead and toss all human beings into perpetual states of sorrow and joy. These "Paths" are but sub-divisions of the One, the Path followed by Karma. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From blafoun@azstarnet.com Fri Jul 26 03:22:38 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:22:38 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607260322.UAA04992@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Corrections: THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE >X-Sender: drais@mail.telis.org (Unverified) >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:06:51 -0800 >To: ah430@lafn.org, rbrown@smb.sams.ch, eldon@mail.deltanet.com, > jcc@upanet.uleth.ca, jj@wolfenet.com, gillmon@mail.telis.org, > kvh@ling.lsa.umich.edu, liperez@cduweb.cdrewu.edu, tstec@aol.com, > ack1@prostar.com, JSANTUCCI@ccvax.fullerton.edu, treacy@netcom.com, > drais@crash.cts.com, am455@lafn.org, olcott@dupagels.lib.il.us, > blafoun@AZStarNet.com, scholar@theosophy.com, > theos-notes@theosophy.com, lbeizer@best.com, kmills@cyberg8t.com, > iasparks@sciences.sdsu.edu, Ahmaddin@aol.com, DSLUSSER-ED-HCT@msn.com, > liesel@dreamscape.com, guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk, theos-buds@vnet.net, > theos-l@vnet.net >From: "John H. Drais" >Subject: Corrections > >To all those interested, the Original Edition of 1889 The Voice of the >Silence has been uploaded to our web site and is available for browing or >downloading. The previous version was not the original, nor was it a >verbatim reproduction (even though it said it was) of the original. Please >check out the Library - Literature section on the Voice. Our comments are in >the Exordium. > >http://upanet/uleth/ca/~PARA/index.htm >John H. Drais >Madre Grande Monastery >18372 Highway 94 >Dulzura, CA 91917-1216 >(619) 468-3512 From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 03:08:38 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 23:08:38 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: SUGGESTIONS - AGAIN - Please Add Yours Message-Id: <960727030838_74024.3352_BHT147-1@CompuServe.COM> KPaul asked for suggestions as to how to proceed in our discussion. I am posting a copy of what I have already suggested. Feel free to comment or add your own suggestions. Jim is jumping right in there. Go for the gold. Just do it. (I''ve been watching too much of the Olympics) :) Namate Keith Price From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 27 03:40:10 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:40:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Absence Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, everybody I will be out of town for a week. So if you do not see any messages from me, this is the reason. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 03:41:19 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 23:41:19 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Acitive Listening for the VOICE Message-Id: <960727034118_74024.3352_BHT109-1@CompuServe.COM> Today I was given a rather boring task of slapping on mailing labels and data entry for the United Way. Since this a public service type of organization, I tried to manage that I was doing a type of karma yoga. My movements I choose to see as a type of ritual. like the prostrations of a monk, or the circular movements around a temple or something. I decided to try to focus on the few fragments I have read from VOS in section 1. I decided to creat my own mantra which went something like: I hear the Voice of the Silence, I am open to the passive infilling of wisdom, love and will, I make my will one with the Voice of the Silence. The Voice of the Silence links me to the ONE. I am not separate from the ONE. I am the ONE as is every other. There is no other, but the ONE. I am allowing the VOICE to give me the will to love and show wisdom through action in a new way. I am free of my little voices. I am free of the nagging negative voices that criticize and separate me from the ONE and every other. I hear the VOICE. I am the VOICE. I do the will of the VOICE. (kind of long for a mantra, though. I changed it a lot, with variations and repetitions on the theme of unity of will with the VOICE). I was amazingly productive. I saw my machine like movements as a ritual to the envocation of the VOICE in every little action. Every little action became a sacred hatha yoga. I felt a new connection to those around me. I felt linked to the study of the VOICE in a new way. By the way, the mail-out was finished in record time and amazed everyone who from past experience expected it to last much longer (evidence of siddhi, oh garsh!, who knows?) Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 03:42:10 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 23:42:10 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Concentrate on Killing the Concentrater? Message-Id: <960727034210_74024.3352_BHT109-2@CompuServe.COM> Jim: Dharana is concentration. Sustained concentration (dharana) is meditation (dhyana). That's verse 2 of Book 3 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and VOS is one of those links between theosophy (or at least, HPB) and raja-yoga. Vivekananda traces the path of concentration/meditation/samadhi-enlightenment as a matter of sequential control of the mind. He gets pretty specific, which I'm not so sure about, but all commentators on Patanjali's terms seem to agree on the *time* element as the difference between concentration and meditation. Without concentration, there can be no meditation (or, sustained concentration). VOS starts off with the requirement of sustained concentration as the essential element. I think it will be interesting to read Kim's promised glossary expansion, and I'm especially looking forward to seeing if any of the "mystical" branch of the TS/theos-l join in on this VOS discussion, for surely one of the more misunderstood writings of HPB occurs on the opening page: after starting the first paragraph with the necessity of meditation and mental control, it continues with "The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer." Jim Yes, this is what drives novices from theosophy and zen and many areas of spirituality. It seems we have go to try like hell to stop trying. We have got to desire with all our might to kill desire. We have got to concentrate on not concentrating. All these paradoxes can lead to frustration or disgust or a rather humorous scene of those zen monastaries MUing all night long (practcing the koan: does a dog have Buddha-nature? MU! or NO! Thus enlightenment the goal is to be goaless, desireless, analysis-less (non dualistic) and by containing the paradox of duality, one breaks through to a liberation of unity with the one beyond concentration, desire, analysis, duality. Or at least I hope so. I have attained some results (IMHO). But I pity the soul's that are just starting out and see all this a sheer nonsense or impossible. The answer to koans, it seems. if often, not words, but a gesture, a pointing to the tree in the garden as oneself, one's mind, one's unity, one's non-separtateness. However, I believe, Blavatsky was trying to get this across to English speaking Westerners and she was trying with the level of consciousness and terminology available to her or which she herself created or intuited from her own VOICE OF THE SILENCE (inner master). I plan to hang with her as I am trying to approach the VOS in a fresh way and am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and have faith that she knows what she is talking about (big of me, huh?) :) Namste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 03:42:48 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 23:42:48 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Copy of: VOICE DISCUSSION SUGGESTIONS Message-Id: <960727034248_74024.3352_BHT109-4@CompuServe.COM> > From: Keith Price, 74024,3352 > TO: allroots, >internet:theos-roots@char.vnet.net > DATE: 7/20/96 6:30 PM RE: Copy of: VOICE DISCUSSION SUGGESTIONS I think we should agree on some guidelines, although everyone is free to do what they want, of course, and no doubt will, as I know I will as the Voice speaks to me. Suggestions: 1. Read a section as divided by uploading format each week. If some feel that there is a better way to divide the uploads for study, please make a suggestion and consider uploading these. 2. Meditate deeply on the aphorisms or precepts that really speak to you and your HIGHER SELF. 3. Consider meditating before going to bed and after waking up in the morning on a short fragment so that there is a connection beyond critical analysis. 4. Consider applying something in your life each day, or listen to your Voice and see if it helps you with some everyday issue (and bring it back to the group for discussion). 5. Feel free to add historical notes of interest and biographical insights from HPB's life (although, personally I hope this isn't the focus). 6. Start posting anytime and as much as you want! Let the Voice of the Silence speak in you! Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 03:42:31 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 23:42:31 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Copy of: SOURCES OF VOS Message-Id: <960727034231_74024.3352_BHT109-3@CompuServe.COM> > From: Keith Price, 74024,3352 > TO: allroots, >internet:theos-roots@char.vnet.net > DATE: 7/20/96 6:40 PM RE: Copy of: SOURCES OF VOS Although I said I wasn't interested in historical issues, I did say I would do what I wanted so: Blavatsky : The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblongs; copies very often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called "contemplative" or Mahayana (Yogacharya) Schools are established. They are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs. The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colors, each of which corresponds to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple and seventy-four compound letters), thus forming a complete cryptographic alphabet. When the ideographs are used there is a definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and signs used in A S T R O L O G Y [caps mine] namely, the twelve zodiacal animals and the seven primary colors, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the primary, and the dark - stand for the thirty-three letters of the simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled [iii] with the five elements and the seven colors . . . Keith: I have long thought that the sacradotal language called Senzar by HPB was a blind for astrological symbolism combined with hints from the sacred art, poetry, literature, scriptures and even MUSIC gleaned from her travel and research(notice all the talk about SOUNDS (Nada, AUM chant/mantra etc). She does do her "thing" at the beginning by buttressing her authority by claiming physical sources, yet she allows herself an out and personal responsibility by claiming it rephrased in her own VOICE for our ears, so to speak. Nevertheless, her format creates a since of importance and expectancy in this reader for one Namaste From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 15:01:10 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:01:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726110109_442542567@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: True Religion Alan, Aside from the oxymoron alert that the title set off, I am still convinced that religions, as institutions, are, in the final analysis, nothing more than a collection of human opinions based originally on experience and then driven mad by human ambition. Other than that, your dissertation is not bad. But we are still left with the nagging question of "what is truth?" Chuck the Heretic From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 16:27:46 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:27:46 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Pilate eat your heart out In-Reply-To: <960726110109_442542567@emout10.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960726110109_442542567@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >Aside from the oxymoron alert that the title set off, "Oxy" (sharp) plus "moron" (moron). That's me :-) > I am still convinced >that religions, as institutions, are, in the final analysis, nothing more >than a collection of human opinions based originally on experience and then >driven mad by human ambition. Maybe, but it doesn't happen in a few minutes, and there is a great deal of worthwhile information lurking among the religious writings of their early periods. This is why I *closed down* my own small church and chapel, and set my own religious orders aside - some ego-tripper always wanted to be top dog. I kept the worthwhile books though. >Other than that, your dissertation is not bad. From anyone else that's an Olympic Gold Medal! (given the subject). > But we are still left with >the nagging question of "what is truth?" Stop nagging :-). "Truth" is another of those objectional notions like "science" and "religion" - there are sciences, there are religions, and there are truths. None of them can claim an absolute. There is the science about life (Biology) the religion about anointing (Christianity) and the truth about oddball machines (Psionics). If it works, its true for as long as it keeps working. The true - oops, genuine occultist is always a pragmatist and an empiricist. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 27 03:40:10 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:40:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Absence Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, everybody I will be out of town for a week. So if you do not see any messages from me, this is the reason. Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 04:25:08 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:25:08 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726002506_442295685@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teachings Ann, The weak we shall always have with us, but that is no reason for us to make a virtue of their weakness, which is what the defenders of religion keep trying to do. Is there a cure? I doubt it, though I have always admired Nero for making the attempt. Chuck the Heretic From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Mon Jul 26 05:43:41 1993 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 07:43:41 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <2C536F0D.4C48@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: There *is* a TS yoga - reply to Martin References: <199607252323.BAA17208@mail.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Martin_Euser wrote: > > It's great that Theosophy gets some attention from people from Slovenia > through the internet! Do you have TS lodges in Slovenia? > Your English is ok. If anyone doesn't understand a particular thing you say > s/he can ask you. That's a part of the communicative process and this is > an international list so people will take that into account. > > > Regards > > Martin There are two TS-Adyar lodges in Slovenija I think. I attended a lecture given there once but the lecturer was so very confused that I never came back. Its not like I didnt understand what she was talking about but it was presented with no sense of concept at all. But I em not discouraged so easily so I will go there again when they announce public lecture again. Im in no hurry since this theosophy stuff is still quite new to me and I still have a lot of basic reading to do. By the way did I understood it right that there is some material (other than VOS) on theos-roots or somewhere that can be obtained by e-mail. If that is so could somebody tell me how can I do it. One more thing If it ever seams like my posts lack politeness its just because I dont know how to express it in English. Regards Ozren From pmmkien@main.com Fri Jul 26 12:00:50 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:00:50 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607261152.GAA22109@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Gospel of Thomas Jim Meier askes readers for their opinion on the origin of the gospel of Thomas, According to scholars of the Jesus Seminar (See the "Five Gospels") - the Gospel of Thomas (GT) has sayings of Jesus that are less corrupted than those in the canonical texts, suggesting that the writer drew on material that was very close to the source. It draws heavily on a source used by Mathew and Luke called "Q", but also on some other early oral traditions. Its first draft could have been as early as 70 AD, but the version that has survived is more probably no earlier than 150 AD. GT also contains saying that were current among the gnostics. The Jesus Seminar people generally rejected those as having originated with Jesus. However - the seminar participants clearly did not want to commit themselves to any saying in the GT that was not paralleled in another text. I reccommend the book "The Five Gospels" to anyone who has an interest in textual criticism of the New Testament. Paul K. From saf@angel.elektra.ru Fri Jul 26 08:02:21 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:54:42 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607261156.AA14318@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Nag Hammadi Hello All Does anybody know where one may download the Nag Hammadi manuscriptes in text file? (www page) Uri /Russia From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 26 12:40:10 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 08:40:10 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re:Teachings Message-Id: <960726124009_72723.2375_FHP9-2@CompuServe.COM> Chuck: >The weak we shall always have with us, but that is no reason for us to make a >virtue of their weakness, which is what the defenders of religion keep trying >to do. I imagine any type of flaw or weakness would be unforgiveable to your nature. No matter where you find it. >Is there a cure? I doubt it, though I have always admired Nero for making >the attempt. I never received much history education, inspite of attending a public grammar school, a parochial high school and two universities. The only thing I know is art and computer history. Enlighten me as to what Nero attempted. - Ann E. Bermingham From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 26 13:20:39 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 9:20:39 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607261320.JAA02279@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: The Masters and Science In-Reply-To: <199607260026.TAA11022@main.com>; from "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" at Jul 25, 96 9:35 pm Dear Paul, Although I fear that responding to your questions and comments may lead me into a flame zone, they are irresistible: [citing Chuck and me] > that the scientific discrepancies in the ML can be explained because the > Masters are neither physical scientists nor omniscient. I agree with that > statement. However -- it raises even more disturbing questions. snip > > BUT - that was not the answer. The writer instead has the air of someone who > claims to know these things and claims to know the answers to Sinnett's > questions. Thus I find the the following to be likely scenarios: > > I. The letters were written by HPB. Like the ML writer, she made similar > pronouncements on science - claiming often to know better than the > scientists of the day. > "Written by" seems to me to cut the Gordian knot. Despite instances of "precipitation," apparent or real, most of the letters were written by the hand of HPB, according to Sinnett's own conclusions. But in what state of consciousness, conveying a body of information that was to what extent her own creation and to what extent something she was accessing from others? So even if she wrote them physically, the possible intervention or at least advice of Masters is still an unknown. > II. The ML writer was deliberately setting him/her self up as an authority > on science in order to somehow further Sinnett's spiritual growth. > > III. The ML writer was part of a "conspiracy" on the part of the Masters > carried out for the benefit of our planet to combat materialism (or to some > other mysterious end) that involved disemenating a false science called > theosophy. "False science" makes it seem like they knew it was false and wanted to disseminate it anyway. Seems more likely to me that HPB was sincere as were her teachers, about the doctrines at least. > > I find scenario II unlikely, as I cannot comprehend what spiritual benefit > Sinnett could derive from the elliptic answers that he got to his questions. > Unless it was, so that he should quit bugging the Masters and rely on his > own horse sense, because they are only feeding him nonsense. Following Sinnett's life story through his own words leads me to the definite conclusion that receiving Mahatma letters was not a good thing for him. He went from being a responsible, sane person to being a self-deluded crank, and stayed that way (as HPB certainly seemed to feel) thereafter. > > If scenario (I) is excluded because the physical evidence (which I haven't > studied) is against it, we're left with scenario (III). > > Actually I find no difficulty with scenario III and in the possibility that > theosophy is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by certain individuals for the > good of humanity Again, "hoax" implies deliberately false information, and I don't see where you are getting that or what evidence would support it. - and that HPB could have been an unsuspecting victim in > this scheme. That seems highly implausible in the sense that she believed in doctrines that were given her by people who knew them to be false. But in that case, I wouldn't bother studying the material at > least not the 19th century stuff, unless it can be independently verified. > Never mind the scientific pronouncements, even the occult teaching would be > suspect. Of course it is "suspect"-- meaning you should not accept it at face value. Somewhere HPB said that all religions are false on the surface but true in their depths. That applies to her own teachings as well. > > I suspect that somewhere in Tibet, some individuals are right now having > quite a good laugh. > > Any thoughts? The doctrines in the Mahatma letters on rounds and races, 7 levels of everything, etc. are clearly not Tibetan in origin (flames coming on that) but rather Kabbalistic-Sufic-Isma`ili in lineage, with a mixture of 19th century science. All that business about consciousness evolving through different planes, humans never being reborn as animals, everything evolving toward a great reunion with the source-- is Western in nature. If we were to look for an extant group of people who really believe something similar in essence to the ML cosmology, I think we should best look in the Pamirs where there is a surviving Isma`ili presence in an area with some interaction with Tibetan Buddhism. The latitude of HPB's definition of "Tibet" allowed her to refer to Leh, Ladakh as in "central Tibet." From ramadoss@eden.com Fri Jul 26 14:31:58 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:31:58 -0500 (CDT) From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960726093524.284f3b40@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TS yoga At 11:24 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Ernest Wood, a former member of the T.S., wrote a book called, simply, >Yoga, which was published in England by Pelican Books (a branch of >Penguuin Books). It is kind of a standard work for English-speaking >people, and I have made use of it myself on more than one occasion. > >I recommend this book to anyone. > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age >TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html >(Note figure "one" after WWW) Alan: Did Wood resign the membership of TS? Prior to his death, he lived in Houston, Texas and I believe he was a member of the TS Lodge at Houston. ..Ramadoss From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 15:00:55 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:00:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726110054_442542091@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Masters and Science This is where I get to put on my heretic hat. I have always had the sneaking suspicion that the Masters have a wicked sense of humor and saw in poor Sinnet someone to have a little fun with. Now you have to understand that the greatest difficulty in reading the Letters is that for the most part we only have one side of the conversation and it is possible in his letters to the Masters that Sinnet was so off base that they figured it was better to lie than to try to get the truth through to him. And you have to remember that Sinnet was the typical Victorian British Stuffed Shirt. If I were one of the Masters, I would not be able to resist leading down a basically harmless primrose path and having a good laugh all along the way. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 15:02:23 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:02:23 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726110222_442542688@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Alan, I think we are arguing over a definition. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 15:01:34 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:01:34 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726110133_442542855@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-l Drive-Thru (not a serious post) Alan, Good Lord! Did he overdo the sauce on the sanskritburgers? I hope he recovers. Chuck the Heretic From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 26 15:00:06 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 11:00:06 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: TS Yoga Message-Id: <960726150005_73632.105_FHV70-1@CompuServe.COM> K. Paul Johnson wrote: >This is a good statement of the sense of wonder one feels when >first discovering and studying Theosophy. Inspiration and >consolation it provides in abundance. But when it comes to the >level of applying what we know, Theosophy speaks in >generalities. Sometimes specifics are necessary, and I hope >that the societies and their publications come to recognize >this rather than remain satisfied with lofty abstractions. What kinds of specifics do you have in mind? I would say that many, if not most, TS members have little difficulty in applying the teachings to practical problems of self-development. Applying them consistently is the hard part, of course. You note that you found a good deal of practical guidance in the Cayce materials. Cayce has always been something of an enigma to me. His recorded sessions contain much wisdom; however, he was evidently...how should one put it...lacking in sophistication?... in his conscious moments. I would be very interetsed in your take on Cayce's persona. Was he just goofing on everybody or was he really a back country hog sticker who periodically "fell out" and sleep-talked surprisingly spiritual things. And can you really cobble together a yoga out of his sessions? Best, Frank From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Fri Jul 26 13:27:06 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:27:06 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607261524.JAA24103@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Atlantis >In our interpretation of Atlantis, are we forgetting that H.P.B. emphasized >"Symbolism" as a key to understanding her writings. Is the following a >possible interpretation for the atlantis legend: Ther is an old (about 100 years old, I think) book called "Phylos the Tibetan". It was dictated by Phylos to a young American and covers several of Phylos' own incarnations, especially on Atlantis. This book is fascinating, even if you don't believe in its historical accuracy (which I do, at least to a certain degree). Who ever wrote it certainly had an extraordinary iomagination and talent for writing psychological thrillers, unless, of course, he just wrote it "as it was". The book is available in many New Age type bookstores. Bjorn From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Fri Jul 26 15:44:42 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 11:44:42 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607261544.LAA08368@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: TS Yoga In-Reply-To: <960726150005_73632.105_FHV70-1@CompuServe.COM>; from "Frank J. Dyer" at Jul 26, 96 11:02 am According to Frank J. Dyer: > > What kinds of specifics do you have in mind? Meditation guidelines, information on attitudes and emotions, astrological insights, dream work suggestions, programs for group study of practical spirituality, and such. I would say that many, if not most, > TS members have little difficulty in applying the teachings to practical > problems of self-development. Applying them consistently is the hard part, of > course. And gaining anything from our association with fellow-Theosophists to help deal with practical issues is also hard. > > You note that you found a good deal of practical guidance in the Cayce > materials. Cayce has always been something of an enigma to me. His recorded > sessions contain much wisdom; however, he was evidently...how should one put > it...lacking in sophistication?... in his conscious moments. Seems true from everything I have read, I would be very > interetsed in your take on Cayce's persona. Was he just goofing on everybody or > was he really a back country hog sticker who periodically "fell out" and > sleep-talked surprisingly spiritual things. He was profoundly interested in spirituality from childhood, and read the Bible voraciously. But he used his clairvoyance for 22 years on solely medical readings before being led into questions of occultism, cosmology, Atlantis, the Great White Brotherhood, etc. by a Theosophical inquirer, Arthur Lammers, in 1923. For the remaining 22 years of his life he gave readings on every imaginable Theosophical/occultist topic. My guess is that he did just what he said (in trance() he was doing-- make a deep connection between his subconscious mind and that of the person receiving the reading. The "akashic records" are *in the person* not off somewhere, according to Cayce. As for the doctrines that emerged in the readings, they seem to have been a gradually accumulating synthesis of the types of esoteric influences-- Theosophy, astrology, Spiritualism, New Thought, Fourth Way, osteopathy, Jung, etc. etc.-- that were familiar to the people who received readings. Cayce himself was not consciously familiar with all this stuff, but the people who came to him were. Which suggests that he really did get paranormal access to his information, but also that sometimes that information was far from reliable. And can you really cobble together a > yoga out of his sessions? You don't even have to cobble. It's all pretty well laid out, presented in fairly simple secondary sources from A.R.E. Press. Meditation, dream work, group study of practical material, all readily available. Cheers Paul From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Fri Jul 26 14:31:10 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:28:10 -3 From: Subject: Historic Jesus(reply to Dr. Alan Bain] Message-Id: <33299447E1@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Alan said: >I have read your post with care, and it is clear to me that you wish to >adhere to Roman Catholic teaching and opinion in your subject matter, so >that what appears at first sight to be serious discussion is in fact >polemical, and intended to support particular sectarian doctrines. >Under such circumstances, although I can refer to the same source >material, and other material not so far used, there would seem to be >little point in continuing discussions. Yes, I am a catholic and never concealed it. It doesn`t means that I adhere totally with Roman Catholic doctrine. There is a papal document at century XIX that forbids any catholic to participate of any theosophical forum, so Unveiled Isis certainly is not a recomended reading to catholics.. My intention to participate in this list is to discuss Unveiled Isis, that I read recently. It is not my intention to discuss specifically about Roman Catholicism, and I think that this is not the appropriate forum to it. I already presented some material that is in contrast with orthodox thought. For instance,in my last text I referred that some books were refused in synod of Laodicea, and even the orthodox Eusebius, considered as disputed writings: Revelations, epistle of James, Jude, second epistle of Peter, and second of John, all of these considered canonical today. My aim is to obtain new knowledge, new references, discuss some point of views that probably are different from mine. So I would like that you give me historic references. I am open to this dialog, even knowing that maybe I am discussing with non-christians. I have no more words to say. I hope that had become clear that is not my intention to [support particular sectarian doctrines], but only to discuss about questions that arose when reading Unveiled Isis. Abrantes From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Fri Jul 26 15:10:49 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:07:49 -3 From: Subject: Historic Jesus Message-Id: <33D27A641A@serv.peb.ufrj.br> http://ccel.wheaton.edu;fathers file ECF03.TXT we can find some elucidations about adulterations of Marcion and his canon. Dr. Lardner is recogniced by HPB at Unveiled Isis as a competent scholar. AGAINST MARCION of Tertulian Dr. Holmes appends the following as a note to the Fourth Book. (See cap. vi. p 351.) The following statement, abridged from Dr. Lardner (The History of Heretics, chap. x. sees. 35-40), may be useful to the reader, in reference to the subject of the preceding Book:--Marcion received but eleven books of the New Testament, and these strangely curtailed and altered. He divided them into two parts, which he called to Euaggelion (the Gospel) and to Apostolikon (the Apostolicon). (1.) The former contained nothing more than a mutilated, and sometimes interpolated, edition of ST. LUKE; the name of that evangelist, however, he expunged from the beginning of his copy. Chaps. i. and ii. he rejected entirely, and began at iii. 1, reading the opening verse thus: "In the xv. year of Tiberius Caesar, God descended into Capernaum, a city of Galilee." (2.) According to Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Theodoret, he rejected the genealogy and baptism of Christ; whilst from Tertullian's statement (chap. vii.) it seems likely that he connected what part of chap. iii.--vers. 1, 2--he chose to retain, with chap. iv. 31, at a leap. (3). He further eliminated the history of the tempation. That part of chap.iv. which narrates Christ's going into the synagogue at Nazareth and reading out of Isaiah he also rejected, and all afterwards to the end of yet. 30. (4.) Epiphanius mentions sundry slight alterations in capp. v. 14, 24, vi. 5, 17. In chap. viii. 19 he expunged h mhthr autos, kai adelfoi autou. From Tertullian's remarks (chap. xix.), it would seem at first as if Marcion had added to his Gospel that answer of our Saviour which we find related by St. Matthew, chap. xii. 48: "Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" For he represents Marcion (as in De came Christ, vii., he represents other heretics, who deny the nativity) as making use of these words for his favourite argument. But, after all, Marcion might use these words against those who allowed the authenticity of Matthew's Gospel, without inserting them in his own Gospel; or else Tertullian might quote from memory, and think that to be in Luke which was only in Matthew--as he has done at least in three instances. (Lardner refers two of these instances to passages in chap. vii. of this Book iv., where Tertullian mentions, as erasures from Luke, what really are found in Matthew v. 17 and xv. 24. The third instance referred to by Lardner probably occurs at the end of chap. ix. of this same Book iv., where Tertullian again mistakes Matt. v. 17 for a passage of Luke, and charges Marcion with expunging it; curiously enough, the mistake recurs in chap. xii. of the same Book.) In Luke x. 21 Marcion omitted the first pater and the words kai ths ghs, that he might not allow Christ to call His Father the Lord of earth, or of this world. The second pathr in this verse, not open to any inconvenience, he retained. In chap. xi. 29 he omitted the last words concerning the sign of the prophet Jonah; he also omitted all the 30th, 31st, and 32d verses; in ver. 42 he read kghsin, 'calling,' instead of emprosqen twn aggegmn tou Qeou 'judgment.' He rejected verses 49, 50, 51, because the passage related to the prophets. He entirely omitted chap. xii. 6; whilst in ver. 8 he read emprosqen tou Qeou instead of emprosqen twn aggelwn tou Qeou. He seems to have left out all the 28th verse, and expunged umwn from verses 30 and 32, reading only o pathr. In ver. 38, instead of the words en th deutera Fugakh, kai eh trith Fulakh, he read en th esperinh Fulakh. In chap. xiii. he omitted the first five verses, whilst in the 28th verse of the same chapter, where we read, "When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and ye yourselves thrust out," he read (by altering, adding, and transposing), "When ye shall see all the just in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves cast out, and bound without, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." He likewise excluded all the remaining verses of this chapter. All chap. xv. after the 10th verse, in which is contained the parable of the prodigal son, he eliminated from his Gospel. In xvii. 10 he left out all the words after legete. He made many alterations in the story of the ten lepers; he left out part of ver. 12, all yet. 13, and altered vet. 14, reading thus: "There met Him ten lepers; and He sent them away, saying, Show yourselves to the priest;" after which he inserted a clause from chap. iv. 27: "There were many lepers in the days of Eliseus the prophet, but none of them were cleansed, but Naaman the Syrian." In chap. xviii. 19 he added the words o pathr, and in ver. 20 altered oidas, thou knowest, into the first person. He entirely omitted verses 31-33, in which our blessed Saviour declares that the things foretold by the prophets concerning His sufferings, and death, and resurrection, should all be fulfilled. He expunged nineteen verses out of chap. xix., from the end of yet. 27 to the beginning of ver. 47. In chap. xx. he omitted ten verses, from the end of ver. 8 to the end of ver. 18. He rejected also verses 37 and 38, in which there is a reference to Moses. Marcion also erased of chap. xxi. the first eighteen verses, as well as verses 21 and 22, on account of this clause, "that all things which are written may be fulfilled;" xx. 16 was left out by him, so also verses 35-37, 50, and 51 (and, adds Lardner, conjecturally, not herein following his authority Epiphanius, also vers. 38 and 49). In chap. xxiii. 2, after the words "perverting the nation," Marcion added, "and destroying the law and the prophets;" and again, after "forbidding to give tribute unto Caesar," he added, "and perverting women and children." He also erased ver. 43. In chap. xxiv. he omitted that part of the conference between our Saviour and the two disciples going to Emmaus, which related to the prediction of His sufferings, and which is contained in verses 26 and 27. These two verses he omitted, and changed the words at the end of ver. 25, egaghsan oi proQhtai, into egaghsa uhin. Such are the alterations, according to Epiphanius, which Marcion made in his Gospel from St. Luke. Tertullian says (in the 4th chapter of the preceding Book) that Marcion erased the passage which gives an account of the parting of the raiment of our Saviour among the soldiers. But the reason he assigns for the erasure--'respiciens Psalmi prophetiam'-- shows that in this, as well as in the few other instances which we have already named, where Tertullian has charged Marcion with so altering passages, his memory deceived him into mistaking Matthew for Luke, for the reference to the passage in the Psalm is only given by St. Matthew xxvii.35. (5.) On an impartial review of these alterations, some seem to be but slight; others might be nothing but various readings; but others, again, are undoubtedly designed perversions. There were, however, passages enough left unaltered and unexpunged by the Marcionites, to establish the reality of the flesh and blood of Christ, and to prove that the God of the Jews was the Father of Christ, and of perfect goodness as well as justice. Tertullian, indeed, observes (chap. xliii.) that "Marcion purposely avoided erasing all the passages which made against him, that he might with the greater confidence deny having erased any at all, or at least that what he had omitted was for very good reasons." (6.) To show the unauthorized and unwarrantable character of these alterations, omissions, additions, and corruptions, the Catholic Christians asserted that their copies of St. Luke's Gospel were more ancient than Marcion's (so Tertullian in chap. iii. and iv. of this Book iv.); and they maintained also the genuineness and integrity of the unadulterated Gospel, in opposition to that which had been curtailed and altered by him (chap. v.). Abrantes From ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br Fri Jul 26 15:12:45 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:09:45 -3 From: Subject: Historic Jesus Message-Id: <33DB374B51@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Continuing the discussion that Toldoth, and also HPB, when referring to Jesus as living one century before Pilate, I argued the pauline epistle 1Tm. I already mentioned that this epistles was recogniced by the first canons of the church, and the discussion was around other books such as Revelations and epistle of James, but never around 1 Timoty. I also refered to Paulicians that respect all paulines epistles. Even herectics as Marcion include the epistles of Paul as Holy Writ. Marcion produced his own canon without OT and using only a heavily edited Luke and some pauline epistles. HPB at book III, chapter III (start 116, end 145) page 143 says that Marcion refused ALL gospels, what is wrong.... HPB some lines before refered to Tertulian (Adv Marcion) and Epiphanius (Panarion) that accused Marcion to adulter Luke, so Marcion recogniced a Luke edition of gospel...What pauline epistles Marcion did recognice?? HPB didn't say. In another posting I refers to some comments of Dr. Lardner about Marcion canon. Probably Marcion only recogniced Luke, because he could not refuse a gospel that was considered as the gospel of Paul. Even 2Tm4:11 and Colossians 4:14 refers to Luke, as Paul`s disciple. Eusebius at Ecclesiastic History BOOK V, CHAPTER VIII. 1 Since, in the beginning of this work, [1] we promised to give, when needful, the words of the ancient presbyters and writers of i the Church, in which they have declared those traditions which came down to them concerning the canonical books, and since Irenaeus was one h of them, we will now give his words and, first, what he says of the sacred Gospels: [2] "Matthew published his Gospel among the Hebrews in their own language, [3] while Peter and Paul were preaching and founding the church in Rome. [4] After their departure 3 Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also transmitted to us in writing those things which Peter had preached; [5] and Luke, the attendant of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel which Paul had declared. Marcion recogniced Luke, and Luke referred to Pilate 3:1, 23:1 and Herode the great 1:5 and his son Herod 23:7. So, Marcion rejects Toldoth that referred to Jesus as living one century before. Rene Nelli, Les cathares, Paris, 1972 page 93 talk about the doctrines of an italian called Jean de Lugio (1240) that, in accordance with Nelli, follow the doctrines preached by occitanic cathars. The cathars also preached a dualistic doctrine (as Marcion and Paulicians) and in his [book of two principles] Lugio refers to several pauline epistles such as Hebrews 6,18 and II Timoty 2,13 (omnipotence of God, the true god), Colossians 1,12-13 and 2,13-15 (the destruction of powerful evil), Efesians 6,10-13 (about evil principle). In all these passages, Lugio refers to Paul as the real author of these epistles, the same Paul considered by cathars as an [initiated], a [perfect] (Filipenses 3,15) (Nelli page 66). Abrantes From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Fri Jul 26 19:31:03 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 08:31:03 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31F91CF7.6509@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Nag Hammadi References: <199607261156.AA14318@angel.elektra.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Macnev Uri wrote: > > Hello All > > Does anybody know where one may download the Nag Hammadi manuscriptes > in text file? (www page) > > Uri > /Russia Hi Uri, Nag Hammadi library www.webcom/~gnosis/naghamm I have just been cruising the news article that Martin Euser has put up on the spiritual related sites on the web. Our librarian has asked about the same thing and she wanted Corpus Hermeticum which is there too. The articles are in 7 parts and are on most of the spiritual type newsgroups so it is worth a look Kind Regards Bee From euser@euronet.nl Fri Jul 26 23:08:50 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607262308.BAA11692@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Ocean of theosophy in spiritweb archive - to Ozren Ozren>By the way did I understood it right that there is some material (other than VOS) on theos-roots or somewhere that can be obtained by e-mail. If that is so could somebody tell me how can I do it. Ozren: you can FTP to ftp.spiritweb.org (login as anonymous ; then enter your E-mail address). You should be able to download the Ocean of Theosophy by WQ Judge as I have uploaded it there just a couple of hours ago (thanks Alan for scanning it and sending it to me). If you don't know how to FTP then you can access the spiritweb archive through the Web (www.spiritweb.org or www.eu.spiritweb.org). The only but is that Rene Mueller (owner of spiritweb) may have to do a little work on the archive - I don't know. Try and see. Martin From euser@euronet.nl Fri Jul 26 23:08:52 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:08:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607262308.BAA11694@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: web page Bjorn>Good to see that Theosophy is growingon the web! How are the theosophical online >books going to be linked in? (Like VOS for example, or Key to Theosophy) > Alan>This has yet to be worked out, though I just sent Martin Euser the parts of "Ocean of Theosophy" that he was lacking. He may be able to put it onto his own Web site, which is already linked to the TI web page below. Bjorn, Alan: I've already uploaded the Ocean to the Spiritweb archive, but I think that I will also make it available on my own homepage. It's just making a link to Theosophical books, let people pick one of the items and download it (maybe in parts, but I think I will assemble the separate chapters into one file). IOW a simple HTML file with options is adequate. Martin From euser@euronet.nl Fri Jul 26 23:08:47 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:08:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607262308.BAA11686@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Nag Hammadi Hi Macnev: The correct URL is: http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/naghamm/nhl.html (note the letter l here, *not* the number one) The Nag Hammadi library. Apocryphal texts. Complete, I think. (Bee: you forgot the second 'com' after webcom in your reply to Macnev :) Martin From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 26 23:10:53 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:10:53 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960726191052_165083578@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teachings Ann, I can forgive an individual for moments of weakness. Even I have and I'm the World Teacher (hell, everyone else claims to be, why not go for the money?:-) :-)). But seriously, it's the idea that people are supposed to be weak that makes we want to puke everytime someone brings up the Sermon on the Mount. Crucifixion was too good for anyone spouting that garbage. I'm surprised you don't know who Nero was. He was the Roman Emperor who tried to wipe out the Xtians and did not succeed. He also invented urban renewal, fiddling while the city burned (the Xtians started the fire, no matter what anyone says! There was this Xtian name Olearius, and he had this cow...). Chuck the Heretic From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 17:09:45 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:09:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <5ODMwcAZvP+xEwbZ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: TS & Wood In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960726093524.284f3b40@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2.2.16.19960726093524.284f3b40@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Alan: Did Wood resign the membership of TS? Prior to his death, he lived in >Houston, Texas and I believe he was a member of the TS Lodge at Houston. > >..Ramadoss He seems to have left when Arundale became President. Alan. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 16:56:40 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:56:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Pilate In-Reply-To: <9607260155.AA23584@toto.csustan.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <9607260155.AA23584@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >Regarding whether or not Jesus lived one century sooner, I never >meant to infer that the passage in 1Tm proves or disproves this >to be so. My argument is that the passage does not necessarily >put the historical Jesus as a contemporary of Pilate because: > >1. of its late date of writing. Remember, The Jesus/Pilate story >already evolved by 90 A.D. > As an aside, Pilate is commemmorated as a saint in the Coptic Church, and possibly in some other branches of Eastern Christendom. This may be based upon an apocryphal document called "The Martyrdom of Pilate," which I have (very long, very boring, full of superlatives). On the historicity angle, it is interesting that Eastern Orthodox icons always depict the nativity of Jesus in a cave, not a stable. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 16:49:21 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:49:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: <960726110222_442542688@emout19.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960726110222_442542688@emout19.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >I think we are arguing over a definition. If you like. I think what you are talking about is "Established" or "Institutionalised" religion. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Fri Jul 26 23:28:55 1996 Date: 26 Jul 96 19:28:55 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: TS yoga Message-Id: <960726232854_72723.2375_FHP36-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank: > I would be very > interetsed in your take on Cayce's persona. Was he just goofing on everybody or > was he really a back country hog sticker who periodically "fell out" and > sleep-talked surprisingly spiritual things. It occurred to me some time ago that Cayce's persona was just the right one to appeal to most ordinary people. His language was fairly simple and he was a regular guy, who loved his family, made a living as a photographer, ate pig's knuckes and liked games. His paranormal abilites just made him interesting enough to catch the media's attention and then the public's. A short while back, someone (probably JHE) said that HPB wrote to get the attention of the intellectuals of her time and get them interested in occultism. I offer the theory that Cayce incarnated to reach millions of regular Americans. I once had a guru that said he though the Beatles incarnated to bring Eastern thought to the Western world. First they were amazingly popular, then they got hooked up with an Indian guru and brought some Indian music to the pop scene (Ravi Shankar). I'm not saying it's true, but it's an interesting idea. - Ann E. Bermingham From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 17:04:15 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:04:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <9uGNoZAPqP+xEw5p@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: TS material In-Reply-To: <2C536F0D.4C48@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2C536F0D.4C48@kiss.uni-lj.si>, Ozren Skondric writes >By the way did I understood it right that there is some material (other >than VOS) on theos-roots or somewhere that can be obtained by e-mail. If >that is so could somebody tell me how can I do it. I can send you all of "Ocean of Theosophy," part of "Key to Theosophy" and a small part of "The Secret Doctrine," plus some unpopular aspects of TS history concerning C.W. Leadbeater. I have done a small amount of work on "Isis Unveiled" and will gladly send anything you ask for by e- mail. (It comes to many files). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 16:29:31 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:29:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes >I wrote a small booklet called "True Religion" which I will try to dig >out, revise, and upload. The recent upload to theos-buds was a small section (the final one) of this original booklet. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 16:59:29 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:59:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teachings In-Reply-To: <960726002506_442295685@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960726002506_442295685@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Ann, >The weak we shall always have with us, but that is no reason for us to make a >virtue of their weakness, which is what the defenders of religion keep trying >to do. >Is there a cure? I doubt it, though I have always admired Nero for making >the attempt. In which case you are an admirer of sadistic cruelty as a form of entertainment by way of passing the buck. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 26 23:39:29 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 00:39:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Historic Jesus(reply to Dr. Alan Bain] In-Reply-To: <33299447E1@serv.peb.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <33299447E1@serv.peb.ufrj.br>, ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br writes >I already presented some material that is in contrast with orthodox >thought. For instance,in my last text I referred that some books were >refused in synod of Laodicea, and even the orthodox Eusebius, considered >as disputed writings: Revelations, epistle of James, Jude, second epistle >of Peter, and second of John, all of these considered canonical today. > This is correct information, but how is it revelevant to Unveiled Isis? The Aramaic-speaking Church of the East still excludes the above books, except James. They also exclude 3 John. The Aramaic Peshitta text omits the greetings from Babylon at the end of 1 Peter, but this is Christian history or doctrinal discussion, not theosophy. >My aim is to obtain new knowledge, new references, discuss some point of >views that probably are different from mine. So I would like that you give >me historic references. I am open to this dialog, even knowing that maybe >I am discussing with non-christians. Are you able to check the sources that Blavatsky mentions in "Isis"? > >I have no more words to say. I hope that had become clear that is not my >intention to [support particular sectarian doctrines], but only to discuss >about questions that arose when reading Unveiled Isis. Your postings do not make this clear (to me). Others seem to be helping you though, so I will remain in the background! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 27 03:38:29 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:38:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Wood Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <2.2.16.19960726093524.284f3b40@mail.eden.com>, > ramadoss@eden.com writes > >Alan: Did Wood resign the membership of TS? Prior to his death, he lived in > >Houston, Texas and I believe he was a member of the TS Lodge at Houston. > > > >..Ramadoss > > He seems to have left when Arundale became President. > > Alan. > --------- > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age > TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html > (Note figure "one" after WWW) > I know he left Adyar, India and lived abroad after Arundale's election. I am not sure if in fact he did resign. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Jul 27 03:40:10 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:40:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Absence Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, everybody I will be out of town for a week. So if you do not see any messages from me, this is the reason. Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss From liesel@dreamscape.com Sat Jul 27 12:48:12 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 08:48:12 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607271354.JAA00145@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Religion & Truth >f it works, its true for as long as it keeps working. The true - oops, >genuine occultist is always a pragmatist and an empiricist. >> >Alan HEAR, HEAR! Liesel From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 27 15:35:17 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:35:17 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960727113515_246925729@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Pilate eat your heart out Alan, In the realms of the spirit there are as many truths as there are people who seek after them and as soon as humanity realizes that we will all be a lot healthier. Chuck the Heretic From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Sat Jul 27 19:28:34 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:28:34 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31FA6DE2.188C@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TI members, an addition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JRC wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Bee Brown wrote: > > I will volunteer to help out where I can too. I probably have a bit more time > > than some so count me in. > > Bee > > > Bee does this mean I can put your name & email address on the part of the > Web site that contains those who will answer inquiries from Web site > visitors? (So far Alan, Liesel, Murray, Martin and myself have > volunteered). It may take no time, or it may (after the site gets going > and is linked all over and registered with the big search engines) become > quite busy. I'd personally like 8 or 10 names for the volunteer list - so > that if someone is too busy at a particular time s/he could find another > to forward the inquiry to ... > -JRC Why not. I seem to spent hours in front of this screen so I just sleep a little less:-) Bee From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 00:14:24 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:14:24 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Re: Pilate eat your heart out In-Reply-To: <960727113515_246925729@emout10.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960727113515_246925729@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >In the realms of the spirit there are as many truths as there are people who >seek after them and as soon as humanity realizes that we will all be a lot >healthier. Correct! Go to the top of the class (next to me). Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From theos@sure.net Sat Jul 27 05:09:51 1996 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:09:51 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607270509.WAA29574@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: What's next in the movement Forwarded from a posting on Theos-World: >To All Theosophists > >Martin writes (or was it Eldon?) >"There's tremendous depth in knowledge and teachings to be found here. >Yet, I see that TSs have no monopoly on truth. Other organizations >may do a better job than TSs do now. I feel that the TSs are lagging behind >facts in this regard." > >Just a side comment, as I have seen this argument so many times that I feel I need to all my "10c" worth. THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE THE SOLE REPOSITORY OF TRUTH. We're supposed to honor the masters be reflecting our beliefs as one of a memver of societies which speak TRUTH. The difference between ourselves as THEOSPHISTS and others in the society is that members in the society come from ALL GROUPS (or rather should). "CORE THEOSOPHISTS" (to use the current terminology) have become as entrenched in their beliefs as Hasidic jews or "Bible Bashing Baptists." This has caused a rift in the society which may not be remidied until another society is formed to superceed it. This is unfortunate, but it is KARMA. If the masters were to come today to one of our "Annual Conventions", they would be appauled at what we have done to their "Society." Why do you think we haven't heard from them? Here's your answer. > >The masters, I'm sure, have visited our grand fiasco. The question is, what can we do to remedy the situation. Bar anyone who does not speak the "Party Line" from attending? Condemm anyone who does not accept the required "Dogma" as a "Heretic?" If so, we've become no better then Iraneus, writing against Valentinus. What good does it serve, but to alienate ourselves from the masses for which THEOSOPHY was intended. > >Perhaps we, as a group of Internet-ional Theosophists, can design a new way to present theosophy within the framework of the "New Age movement" so as to accept and embrace those teachings which are beneficial and speak of TRUTH. "He who is not against us, is WITH US!" Don't worry about scorn (from the 'Old Folks back home'), but "Let the Dead Bury their Dead" as we "Strike a blow for Liberty" and Theosophy. After all, what do you have to lose besides antequated ideas. > > > A True Theosophist > What are your comments? From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Jul 27 12:13:40 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 05:13:40 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960727121340.0067bab8@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Reply to Paul K. Regarding THE MAHATMA LETTERS Paul K: It was interesting to read your analysis of THE MAHATMA LETTERS, and your theory that they are part of a hoax played upon the West by the Mahatmas, a hoax including a phoney or made-up set of theosophical doctrines. A cursory reading of your posting would make it seem like an attack on Theosophy. But you are simply expressing what seems obvious and true from a person of a certain background. And there are more people in the world that hold that background than hold what I might call the traditional theosophical view. Theosophy is not, though, a house of cards, standing upon some scientific tidbits, ready to collapse with the slightest perturbation. It does not stand or fall on any particular stray comment made regarding science in some book. You may be able to find a few points and either disprove them, as they seem to have been said, or make a strong argument against them. That might indicate that a particular writer was not 100 percent right in everything said. Or it could mean that there are other interpretations of a particular passage, something less obvious being written about. When some people hear a point or two under attack, they might be swayed, and change their beliefs. Others may be rigid in their thinking, "true believers", and unswayed by anything they hear or experience in life. But I'd suggest that there is also a third category with Theosophists, some who have a view of things where their thinking is based on a solid foundation, one that depends on different ways of thinking about and experiencing life. The modern or postmodern paradigm or worldview has basic assumptions about the world, things that are assumed true, assumptions regarding the way the world is and how it works. These determine what is "obviously true" and what might be rejected out of hand. So does Theosophy, and they are quite far apart. While some degree of truth and reality can be achieved by modern science, when it focused on the physical world, the biggest part of life is unseen, and an understanding of it requires the observer, the knowner, the person to grow and achieve some degree of spiritual progress. You mention that you're not sure if the non-scientific materials in THE MAHATMA LETTERS make sense. It's true that a certain background of study is necessary to appreciate the letters. Theosophical writings based on the source literature will explain and amplify what you would read. Some later theosophical writers, thought, taught different ideas and if your background of reading in Theosophy solely consisted of their works, you might very well have trouble making sense of the letters. Another aspect of making sense of the materials depends upon the approach that you take, and what you've made of them. I'd find the literature as a bona fide approach to the spiritual, somewhat along Jnana Yoga lines. There's the experience of reading and book learning of the literature. Then, I'd say, there can come a further step, one of "taking the dive" or "crossing the abyss". The initial experience of Theosophy, as something to simply learn, brings one to a plateau, a point where there are no further rewards for study and learning. This can either be "broken through", like a koan is solved, or it can remain impassible, until one's energy is exhausted, and one's interest in the philosophy fades, and it takes on an arbitrary, nonsensical nature. The experience of "going further" is akin to having an inner teacher, a source of knowing things. It has something to do with different ways of approaching wisdom, perhaps the generic ability to think in different ways. It might be described somewhat in terms of symbolic thought, thinking in metaphor, intuition, but these terms don't really work very well. Regarding some of the facts that you mentioned in THE MAHATMA LETTERS, we discussed Atlantis a bit. The velocity of light does change. Light can be either a wave or a particle. As a particle, a photon, it might take hundreds of thousands of years to make its way to the surface of the sun (according to an article in DISCOVER). This is certainly slower than it's nearly average speed in space. The statement in the letters regarding the sun having iron was "the Sun is full of iron vapours", not that it substantially consisted of iron. As to the Sun's temperature, I did not come across the reference in the letters. It's 5800 Kelvin on the surface, 15,000,000 Kelvin in the interior, and 4300 Kelvin in its sunspots, which are *relatively* cold. Another aspect on "cold" has to do with the absence of a body to act upon. If I were to shine flashlight in outer space, with no object to reflect it back, it would seem dark, as thought I had no light. Similarly, something would seem "cold", or lacking in heat, in the absence of some object to be heated. A third aspect might relate to how the sun might seen if actually visited, presumably on a higher plane. THE MAHATMA LETTERS were private, to Sinnett (primarily, although a few were to Hume). They were not reviewed and written, I assume, with the idea of public dissemination. It's said that THE SECRET DOCTRINE was the join production of HPB and her Teachers. They reviewed the materials, as they were being written. Personal letters aren't subject to the same degree of scrutiny as a major literary work intended to be the cornerstone of a new effort to enlighten the West. We're all inclined to make more mistakes in letters than in materials intended for production. So this may partly explain any errors of fact that may have appeared. Also, certain materials may not have been directly explained. KH mentions in the letters that a student would have to come to them, or settle for crumbs. He also mentions that their teachings, if told plainly, to the uninitiated, would sound like gibberish. This is why myths, blinds, and other methods of communicating ideas in some exoteric form are used. A reader must have the necessary background, the necessary training, the inner connection to various doctrines in order to recognize and benefit from such writings. The material is plainly presented "for those with eyes to see", but also veiled, giving the appearance of some foolish religious or mythological stories, or perhaps some arbitrary set of metaphysical rules and assertions. I don't think that Theosophy is too concerned with making pronouncements regarding science. And although the Mahatmas may have a generic ability to know things, and have experiences of life on this and other worlds that we may not have the slightest notion of, they can certainly learn from it as well. It deals with but a tiny corner of this vast multiverse that we live in, but it does have, these past few centuries, a good track record of advancing knowledge of the material world. When in the theosophical literature we see mention of scientific items, or comments on mathematics and the physical world, we have to be careful to understand the context of the statement. What is being said? It may not be what it appears, as first glance. Even the reference to specific numbers may have hidden meanings, or special ways of looking at them. Consider the number "777". It could mean that specific number, or something else, like, for instance, the number seven, at three scales of being, or the completion of a threefold cycle, or a cycle with three scales, somewhat like 24-60-60 would mean, with reference to a clock, in talking of the time in a day. How is anything of this to be proved, any of the theosophical doctrines or what I've said of them? They involve things that go beyond the ability of a scientist to detect, with the best of instruments and experimental design. They involve something experiential. The person that would know has to tread the Path and to change, grow, and experience life. And with that growth and those experiences comes both knowledge and wisdom, dealing with things that will never appear in any college textbook or be posted on any web page. -- Eldon From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 06:21:06 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 02:21:06 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: More Questions Than Answer (Serious Post) Message-Id: <960727062105_74024.3352_BHT142-1@CompuServe.COM> MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS I guess I should stop speaking on every passing subject and focus on one that is in some ways the focus of my present incarnation. I have said that I have always wondered why I was localized in this particular body and mind. If life is only a chemical process that gives rise accidentally to things like procreation and mental process through simply chemical processes (as science claims), so be it? But why do I have the ability to say, "Why me?" Why am I experiencing this batch or bath of chemical processes? If consciousness is a by product of physical processes in the brain, why am I here and not there? This is not a trivial question for science or spiritual traditions. I have been forced to deal with certain unconscious processes that seem beyond by control. I experience them truly unconsciously as being produced by another "something" beyond my direct will or conscious choice. These arise from the animal heritage which we all have in the sense that we live through animal processes of eating, breathing, sleeping , and procreating. Animals procreate often by instinct and according to cues they gain through their senses regarding the "mating season," estrus, hormones, scents and so on. This has assure that live will go on. Pollen is nothing more than an ocean of plant sperm floating willy-nillly and activated by the appropriate plant "egg". Life replicates itself by DNA and the gene is selfish in that it takes every possible chance and strategy to assure its long term survival in short term forms. The DNA is thus primary is such systems of thought like sociobiology that suggests that the selfish gene assures its survival selfishly by making some representatives of itself altruistic. Altruism of the expendable individual assures the survival of the gene pool for a particular genotype. Lest one think I have forgotten the nature of our discussion group as theosophy, I would like to ask, how do certain levels of being replicate themselves. How do emotions and beings with emotion communicate emotions to other such beings and replicate these emotions? How do beings capable of thought, replicate and communicate thought to other beings and assure the existence of "thoughtful" beings? And continuing up the levels of the great chain of being, how do spiritual beings replicate themselves? How do spiritual beings replicate or communicate spiritual messages and create spiritual being like themselves? If the purpose of life is to replicate beings like oneself, how does man replicate himself beyond the replication of the physical bodies through sex? If I wanted to make a copy of my spiritual nature, how would I do this? How could I spread my spiritual nature and make copies of myself like some virus. The AIDS virus has been looked upon as a metaphor by some thinkers like Susan Langer and others. The AIDS virus's seems to have only one goal, to make as many copies of itself as it can without regard to the ultimate fate of its host being and even at the expense of killing the host. Yet it travels by physical contact, through bodily fluids. Thought-forms and spiritual forms also seek to recreate themselves and travel by "fluid" we cannot see. Traveling the paths of the Kabala and communing with Enochian angels through processes that allow one to flow through the spiritual fluid and become linked, possessed, one could almost say infected (in a positive way). This infection creates the desire to see the level spread among the population for good or bad or with no conscious intent. Evangelical Christianity seeks to infect or convert as many people as possible through the blood of Jesus (to extend the analogy). But is it the blood that carries the transforming power. Is the spiritual fluid of another less dense, more subtle kind? Are we dealing with a mindset that is now becoming as common as "primitive" magic, revealed religion, materialistic science once was. Everyday we here the need for more world security, more world unity, more understanding by giving relinquishing individual altruism for global altruism in the form of a uniting against terrorism and moving toward global tolerance and a kind of uneasy diversity within an unstable, as yet, unity. Are we controlling the process are being controlled and shouldn't this be the real focus of something like the Parliment of Reigions? Do we know where we are really going or are we reacting to one crisis after another? Are the Masters (within us or on some higher plane than humanity guiding the process? I hope so. Namste Keith Price From 72724.413@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 11:45:04 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 07:45:04 EDT From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Message-Id: <960727114504_72724.413_FHP40-1@CompuServe.COM> James S. Yungkans writes and/or forwards a message asking, "What's next in the movement" , and commenting that "if the masters were to come today to one of our "Annual Conventions", they would be appalled at what we have done to their 'Society'". There are many of us theosophists who believe this is a serious problem. It is, therefore, with profound concern that we have observed recent actions taken by officers of the Society on both International and National (in America) levels to restrict or expel members of national sections and lodges or branches thereof in an apparent effort to disallow what we believe are authorized and proper pursuits of Truth and the declared Objects of the Society. Although, the Internet provides a link of communication for some, there are many more who are not so connected. Consequently, a group of us have arranged a meeting in October to discuss this problem further, to reaffirm our unreserved and enthusiastic sympathy with the declared Objects of The Theosophical Society, and to pledge our mutual friendship and assistance. This meeting, at a central location in the United States, is open to all theosophists and theosophical organizations. If you would like an invitation and information, please E-mail to me your name and mailing address, and I will forward this information to you. We can serve as a nucleus to protect and defend the declared Objects, and to make certain that our voices are heard throughout the theosophical movement. But for this to happen, those of us who care must be willing to make effort. Sincerely Sy Ginsburg, Director at Large The Theosophical Society in Miami & South Florida 340 Sunset Drive, #1811 Fort Lauderdale, FL. 33301 Tel: 954-463-8900 Fax: 954-463-8989 From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Sat Jul 27 14:21:32 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 10:21:32 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607271421.KAA06746@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Emotional Communication Keith asks how emotions replicate themselves. Through all kinds of subtle, invisible processes as well as obvious ones. Someone screaming abuse in one's face will set one's adrenaline rushing in a fight-or-flight response; adrenals communicate with adrenals. Seductive behavior produces a sexual response; gonads communicate with gonads. Someone in an enlightened, liberated state causes a sense of being uplifted in others around them who are sensitive; third eye communicates with third eye. Whatever level we are operating on has frequencies to which other people resonate. Emotions are communicated from all these levels. Having been on the receiving end of a fair amount of negative emotions in recent years, I have begun to be able to instantly separate from them rather than identify as hurt or angry. But that takes lots of practice and only works part of the time, so far. Gurdjieff talks about "centers" as: sexual, moving, emotional, intellectual, higher emotional, higher intellectual. He says the problem with using thought to control feelings is that emotional center responds more rapidly than intellectual center; thus one's feelings are off and running before one has the chance to take stock of a situation from a more analytical point of view. But what can happen as a result of trial and error, and self-observation, is that we can "see things coming" and short-circuit the destructive processes involved in contagious negative emotions. One exercise I like uses the phrase "This is called..." in order to break attachment to negative emotion; e.g. "This is called being heartbroken over a bad review" tends to pull the rug out from under the emotion in question and enable one to free oneself somewhat. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Sat Jul 27 14:47:04 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 10:47:04 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607271447.KAA09815@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement In-Reply-To: <199607270509.WAA29574@sure.net>; from "James S Yungkans" at Jul 27, 96 1:11 am According to James S Yungkans: > > > their beliefs as Hasidic jews or "Bible Bashing Baptists." This has caused > a rift in the society which may not be remidied until another society is > formed to superceed it. This is unfortunate, but it is KARMA. If the > masters were to come today to one of our "Annual Conventions", they would be > appauled at what we have done to their "Society." Why do you think we > haven't heard from them? Here's your answer. HPB, in the Key and in her letters to American conventions, was very clear about the probable fate of the TS. Her warnings about a "sandbank of thought" and a "moulded carcass" stranded on it seem to have fallen on deaf ears. > > > >The masters, I'm sure, have visited our grand fiasco. The question is, > what can we do to remedy the situation. Bar anyone who does not speak the > "Party Line" from attending? Condemm anyone who does not accept the > required "Dogma" as a "Heretic?" My fond hope in researching and writing my books was to open up the field of Theosophical history, question orthodoxies, get people to consider multiple possibilities. I now fear that it has had the reverse effect of inspiring people to circle the wagons, battle the infidels, etc., bringing out the worst rather than the best in Theosophists. But that fear is based on a handful of reactions from influential people. The average Theosophist is a lot less orthodox than the minority which runs everything. That minority knows its position is precarious, which only makes it more vigilant in defending orthodoxy. If so, we've become no better then > Iraneus, writing against Valentinus. What good does it serve, but to > alienate ourselves from the masses for which THEOSOPHY was intended. > > Are the average members alienated from the masses, or is is just those who are leaders? And more particularly those in the ES, or still caught up in ES karma somehow, who glory in elitism and the sense of preserving something that is too precious for "ordinary people" to appreciate. > >Perhaps we, as a group of Internet-ional Theosophists, can design a new way > to present theosophy within the framework of the "New Age movement" so as to > accept and embrace those teachings which are beneficial and speak of TRUTH. > "He who is not against us, is WITH US!" Don't worry about scorn (from the > 'Old Folks back home'), but "Let the Dead Bury their Dead" as we "Strike a > blow for Liberty" and Theosophy. After all, what do you have to lose > besides antequated ideas. > > > > > > A True Theosophist > > > > What are your comments? I have concluded that what people have to lose, if for example they let go of certain dogmas about the Masters, is their sense of being a special people, a chosen people, HPB the one sole chosen messenger of the one brotherhood that preserves the one ancient wisdom. Such a simple world, and we Theosophists so smack dab at the center of it! Relinquishing that "chosen people" mentality means saying HPB is *a messenger* of *some Masters* who conveyed *some wisdom* but that there are lots of Masters, messengers and wisdoms that are *not* included in our modern Theosophical lineage and that we should respect rather than disdain as inferior or fraudulent. For me and you, what people would lose by accepting that point of view is an illusion anyhow, so what's the big deal? But for people whose illusion is that they are at the center of the universe due to some special link with a unique source of truth-- losing that illusion destroys their whole world. From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 27 15:32:01 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:32:01 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960727113200_246925229@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: TS & Wood Which is not surprising considering that he believed that Arundale and Jinarajadasa stuffed the ballot box. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 27 15:36:10 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:36:10 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960727113610_246925649@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teaching from other voices Alan, That would seem to be the case. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Jul 27 15:35:29 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:35:29 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960727113529_246925709@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teachings Alan, That was nasty, also true. Being a gladiator in that period was one of my favorite incarnations. Now how I found out about that is a very strange story which some day I must tell you. It actually had a profound influence on this present lifetime. Chuck the Heretic From ozren.skondric@kiss.uni-lj.si Tue Jul 27 16:31:04 1993 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 18:31:04 +0200 From: Ozren Skondric Message-Id: <2C555848.BC0@kiss.uni-lj.si> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TS material References: <9uGNoZAPqP+xEw5p@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > I can send you all of "Ocean of Theosophy," part of "Key to Theosophy" > and a small part of "The Secret Doctrine," plus some unpopular aspects > of TS history concerning C.W. Leadbeater. I have done a small amount of > work on "Isis Unveiled" and will gladly send anything you ask for by e- > mail. (It comes to many files). > > Alan > --------- > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age > TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html > (Note figure "one" after WWW) Thank you for your respond Alan. I would be most grateful if you could send me the parts of The Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled you have. I will try to get Ocean of Theosophy from ftp.spiritweb.org As for the CWL stuff, I already have it. Regards Ozren From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 18:50:32 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 14:50:32 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Message-Id: <960727185032_72723.2375_FHP67-1@CompuServe.COM> KPaul: >But for people whose >illusion is that they are at the center of the universe due to >some special link with a unique source of truth-- losing that >illusion destroys their whole world. But out of that destruction comes the opportunity to pick up the pieces and create a new and better world. Maybe something built less on illusion and more on reality, where people are getting down to the business of solving problems rather than massaging their own egos and parading around like royalty. - Ann E. Bermingham From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 19:49:29 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 15:49:29 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: GdeP on TS Yoga Message-Id: <960727194929_73632.105_FHV85-1@CompuServe.COM> Bee Brown wrote: >As the party referred to :-) I couldn't agree with you more. what I was >asking about was a Theosophical way before the above mentioned effects become >a part of life. Telling an inquirer that if they take up study of theosophy >they will have internal changes in a few years time that are recognisably >different from how that person feels now, doesn't seem to inspire them to >take up that study but something they can get hold of right at the time of >inquiry, interests them more. >Personally I have experienced the gradual change of awareness that you speak >off through a devoted study of theosophical literature over the past few >years. >Bee Dr. de Purucker addressed this issue in his respnse to a question at the European Convention of the Point Loma TS in October, 1932. He commented that yoga practices are not necessary and can be injurious to an individual from the West. He characterized the study and opractice of Theosophy as raja yoga or jnana yoga. He, in effect, stated that practicing truthfulness, kindliness, gentleness, self-control, and having command of a situation amounted to practicing "the proper yoga". His tag line in this passage is beautiful: "...all of these other different kinds of yoga --Karma Yoga, and Bhakti Yoga, and all the rest of them--don't amount to a snap of the fingers as contarsted with the actual spiritual and intellectual training under our Masters. All these things are but crutches for men who do not know anything better. Do you understand? Is the answer responsive?" Of course, I would not lay that entire rap on a potential new member. ;-{)> But I would stress that this is a gradual process that has the virtue of efficacy. Now, it may strike the potential member as elitist to put the situation in those terms. I say, so what? As an old and wise member of the New York TS once told me "I don't see great masses of people being drawn to Theosophy". And this is very true. It's not for everybody. There are certainly many other New Age type activities that those who are not presently ready can engage in so that at some point in the future they will be able to differentiate between spiritual pabulum and teachings that have real substance. Anyway, doesn't it give you a sense of continuity that they were talking about these things at a TS convention in 1932? Talk about the Eternal Return! --Frank From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 27 00:49:02 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:49:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Teachings? In-Reply-To: <960726191052_165083578@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960726191052_165083578@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Ann, >I can forgive an individual for moments of weakness. Even I have and I'm the >World Teacher (hell, everyone else claims to be, why not go for the money?:-) >:-)). But seriously, it's the idea that people are supposed to be weak that >makes we want to puke everytime someone brings up the Sermon on the Mount. That's because you read English translations, and need to do more research. For example, there is a view, which merits some attention, that "The Meek" who shall inherit the earth is sectarian code for the members of the "Jesus Sect" at the time. > Crucifixion was too good for anyone spouting that garbage. Crucifixion is a horrible death, especially suitable (so they said) for heretics ... >I'm surprised you don't know who Nero was. He was the Roman Emperor who >tried to wipe out the Xtians and did not succeed. He also invented urban >renewal, fiddling while the city burned (the Xtians started the fire, no >matter what anyone says! There was this Xtian name Olearius, and he had this >cow...). No one knows for sure who started the fire, including you. The prime suspect remains Nero, albeit indirectly. > >Chuck the Heretic .. who advocates crucifying and burning large numbers of people to death. The Nazis used gas ovens - maybe you would like to start a program for the use of these in the USA to dispose of the unnamed millions on your hit list? Alan :-( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 00:24:18 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 20:24:18 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The Masters and Science Message-Id: <960728002418_76400.1474_HHL9-1@CompuServe.COM> >The doctrines in the Mahatma letters on rounds and races, 7 >levels of everything, etc. are clearly not Tibetan in origin >(flames coming on that)... Paul, I Agree. Jerry S. Member, TI From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 00:31:49 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:31:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <3qoDJWA1Tr+xEwZS@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Reply to Paul K. Regarding THE MAHATMA LETTERS In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960727121340.0067bab8@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <2.2.32.19960727121340.0067bab8@mail.imagiware.com>, "Eldon B. Tucker" writes >I'd suggest that there is also a third >category with Theosophists, some who have a view of things where >their thinking is based on a solid foundation, one that depends >on different ways of thinking about and experiencing life. .. which reminds me: Do you have a Web page that the present TI Web page can put a link to? If so, let me know and I will gget it set up. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 00:20:42 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:20:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: TS yoga In-Reply-To: <960726232854_72723.2375_FHP36-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960726232854_72723.2375_FHP36-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> writes >I once had a guru that said he though the Beatles incarnated to bring Eastern >thought to the Western world. First they were amazingly popular, then they got >hooked up with an Indian guru and brought some Indian music to the pop scene >(Ravi Shankar). I'm not saying it's true, but it's an interesting idea. The Indian guru brought an Eastern (yoga) *method* to the Western world around 1960 - I saw him at the Albert Hall in London, and was not long after initiated. The Beatles latched onto him quite a bit later, and effectively trashed his mission altogether eventually. I am preparing a serious paper on some of this 1960s stuff, but it will take a bit of time. Said guru was linked directly to Shankaracharya. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 01:14:36 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 21:14:36 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: GdeP on TS Yoga Message-Id: <960728011436_72723.2375_FHP51-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank: >Dr. de Purucker addressed this issue in his respnse to a question at the >European Convention of the Point Loma TS in October, 1932. He commented that >yoga practices are not necessary and can be injurious to an individual from the >West. In my personal experience that it is rather difficult to do many yoga practices while living a Western life style. The pressures of job, family, relationships, etc. are all distractions, but also duties that must be attended to. There must be some kind of Western yoga (like the one that Keith described while slapping on labels) that is going on while we attend our duties. My experience with yoga teachers or gurus is that they expected you to do time-consuming yoga practices while being active in the Western world and also volunteer in the yoga organization, contribute large sums of cash and attend every class. There just wasn't enough time for most of us to do all this unless we slept three hours a day, which is what our teacher claimed to do. He never passed on his secret as to how one got to the level where he needed so little sleep. My guess was regular deep meditation. It my conclusion that to really follow this path, one had to retreat to the forests of India or live on the banks of the Ganges. I agree that studying Theosophy creates changes (for the better, usually) in the person who approaches the material with humility and a spirit of service to humanity, rather than an attempt to heighten their intellectual pride and prowess. I will never forget the booklet that was sent to me when first I joined the TSA. It was called The Mysteries of Existence and was put out by the New Zealand Section. There was one phrase, "the seed is slowly developing", that threw light on the dark corners of my soul and answered questions that I had been struggling with for years. I felt I owed TS something just for that phrase. > His tag line in this passage is beautiful: >"...all of these other different kinds of yoga --Karma Yoga, and Bhakti Yoga, >and all the rest of them--don't amount to a snap of the fingers as contarsted >with the actual spiritual and intellectual training under our Masters. All these >things are but crutches for men who do not know anything better. Do you >understand? Is the answer responsive?" Once a person is under the guidance of the Higher Self and/or Master, the yogas do look that way. Once reason I believe is that there is no refusal. If an order or message comes down, you just get up and do it. The link with that power is so strong that one wouldn't even think of saying, "later, dude." >Of course, I would not lay that entire rap on a potential new member. ;-{) Probably scare the newbie away. >There are certainly many other New Age type >activities that those who are not presently ready can engage in so that at some >point in the future they will be able to differentiate between spiritual pabulum >and teachings that have real substance. This smacks of an arrogance that has no place next to brotherhood. Although it may be true, it is best left unspoken. >Anyway, doesn't it give you a sense of continuity that they were talking about >these things at a TS convention in 1932? Talk about the Eternal Return! Or how about it says that we haven't really gotten very far since then? We've experienced the Eternal Return of the SOP - same old problems. : - ) - Ann E. Bermingham From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 00:47:29 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:47:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Teachings In-Reply-To: <960727113529_246925709@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960727113529_246925709@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Alan, >That was nasty, also true. Being a gladiator in that period was one of my >favorite incarnations. Now how I found out about that is a very strange >story which some day I must tell you. It actually had a profound influence >on this present lifetime. I shall look forward to it with interest. I am not without stories of my own :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sat Jul 27 04:47:11 1996 Date: 27 Jul 96 00:47:11 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Voice of Sacred Geometry/Music/Art Message-Id: <960727044710_74024.3352_BHT31-1@CompuServe.COM> From the glossary for the Voice of the Silence: (38) Every stage of development in Raja-Yoga is symbolised by a geometrical figure. This one is the sacred Triangle and precedes Dharana. The is the sign of the high Chelas, while another kind of triangle is that of high Initiates. It is the symbol "I" discoursed upon by Buddha and used by him as a symbol of the embodied form of Tathagata when released from the three methods of the Prajna. Once the preliminary and lower stages passed, the disciple sees no more the but the -- the abbreviation of the --, the full Septenary. Its true form is not given here, as it is almost sure to be pounced upon by some charlatans and-- desecrated in its use for fraudulent purposes. [20] (39) The star that burns overhead is "the star of initiation". The caste-mark of Shaivas, or devotees of the sect of Shiva, the great patron of all Yogis, is a black round spot, the symbol of the Sun now, perhaps, but that of the star of initiation, in Occultism, in days of old. Keith: I have said (as has Blavatsky) that theosophy has been passed down through the ages in hidden or non-verbal form such as astrological symbolism, numerology and sacred geometry as well as pictorial mandalas and even representational art. The voice of the silence has spoken to those of the Pythagorean and latter schools throug the forms of sacred geometry contained in the yantra or madalas of Eastern art and in the West through the contemplation of the Platonic solids. When she says in the Secret Doctrine that she sees a circle, then a circle with a single dot etc. she is looking at symbols familiar to astrologers as the sign for spirit and the sun resprectively. The geometry of the solids gives clues to the cyrstallization of spirit in matter as an organizing principle. Initiation may be a similar crystallization to a new level of consciousness brought about by the inpouring of the divine organizing forces that one links to when comtemplating and accesing the voice. Vinna or the lute also shows music's ability to transform consciousness and transmute the astral into a channel for the higher energies. I like New Age music and use it to still the "monkey mind" and release tension so as to "paralyze" temporarily the intoxication with everyday concerns and to travel to levels that otherwise would not be accessible to me at my stage of development safely. I often feel an electricity and a sleep-type paralysis enter my body when listening to this music, yet remain awake and alert. I especially like Raphael and am currently listening to his "Angels of the Deep" album which he calls his "oceanic tantra". The cut "Initiation" seems to provide, for me, a opening to a new level of consciousness. Chanting is a major part of the Buddist tradition and I am sure Blavatsky was exposed to this form of ritualized yoga of sound in her travels to the East. I carry the music in my head throughout the day as a link to the meditative states and they allow me to access the music of the spheres while in a traffic jam (which is of great benefit in Houston). Namaste Keith Price From jem@vnet.net Sat Jul 27 06:02:56 1996 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:02:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "John E. Mead" Message-Id: <199607270602.CAA03300@katie.vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: VOS commentary hi - if someone would be kind enough to send the "original" Vos, i will replace the older (relative) version with this (eliminating mistakes made by the copy in hand). I would need it in ascii text format. comments: 1)have the VOS tablets been shown to exist? (vs. stanzas of Dyzan) 2) who knows the translation/ideagrams of the original? (language of the original tablets?). can we see the original? peace - john e. mead ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Theos-L etc. list-owner Member of Theosophical Society in America Member of Theosophy International [Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers] [Mathematics is impossible without consciousness] ----------------------------------------------------------- From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 00:09:55 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:09:55 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Acitive doing In-Reply-To: <960727034118_74024.3352_BHT109-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960727034118_74024.3352_BHT109-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes >I was amazingly productive. I saw my machine like movements as a ritual to the >envocation of the VOICE in every little action. Every little action became a >sacred hatha yoga. >I felt a new connection to those around me. I felt linked to the study of the >VOICE in a new way. By the way, the mail-out was finished in record time and >amazed everyone who from past experience expected it to last much longer I have found this approach can have remarkable success. It does not seem to matter whether I link it to a specific idea (like VOS) or not. It is the *practice* of performing everyday, repetitive tasks with a *spiritual* intent that does the trick. The common factor is the record speed in which the menial task is completed - and usually very well! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Sun Jul 28 07:51:08 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:51:08 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960729020324.23cf9618@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members, an addition Responding to Alan >>[Alan quoting Murray] >>I imagine we'll do what we can with what we've got, but maybe a sort of >>roster would help us to work together, ie a list of aspects of the Web site >>with a name opposite each one, and change the assignments around one place >>every couple of months. It depends on what people want and what they feel >>they can do, but I think a bit of organisation will help to lubricate the >>cooperation. It may even be fun. > >[Alan] > .... One useful addition which could be made right now will be links >to TI members' home pages on the existing TI Web page below. .... > >Maybe you could expand on what your idea of "a bit of organisation" >might mean in terms of the "how" thereof? Yes, well organisation can get a bit tricky, can't it? We don't want more than a minimal amount, I guess, so as to keep the workload down and to avoid all those things that we don't like in established organisations. On the other hand, if people don't keep in touch with each other and don't work in together, it would surely waste a lot of time and effort. With no intention of being pessimistic, I don't think it hurts to be aware of possible problem areas in the future, for instance (IMO) undue editorial control and little circles of power within bigger circles. We don't want that stuff in TI, do we? Or do we?? As I read it, we just want to get on with the job, and have limited resources enough as it is, without wasting energy on struggles with each other. So, my feeling is to keep any organising of who does what, as flexible as possible, in order to stay responsive to the needs of the moment. And if people offering material for the Web site or trying to decide what to do about any aspect of it do it through a common arena like theos-buds, then we have a reasonable chance of developing consensus. The site coordinator would then generally see that any consensus decision is put into action, including identifying others in TI or theos-XXX or beyond who can help when necessary. The structure I have in mind is a loose circle of site helpers including the site coordinator; with leadership able to pass around it rapidly and flexibly according to whoever happens to have the idea, skill or material which meets the need of the moment. The coordinator is then one of the circle, but with sufficient assent from the circle to be able to do the coordinating job. After some time, say a few months or whatever suits, the role could go to somebody else, to share the workload around. The circle of site helpers would really be as big as TI itself, with people doing what they are able to, if they are interested. Depending on where the Web server computer is, it might be necessary to separate the roles of site information coordination and technical upkeep and loading of the information. I haven't seen any messages describing the setup, so I'm a bit in the dark on what you and JRC have in mind. In my post of 22 July 96 titled "Re: TI Members", I suggested a few more "departments" like a page for news (para 4), a page for the spoken word, like interviews, anecdotes and testimony (paras 7 and 8), and one for highlights from theos-XXX (para 3). If we add those to JRC's diagram of the links, it would look something like this: __________________________________________________________________ | | | | | The | Join | Contact a | | Three Objects | Theosophy International | TI Member | |____________________|_________________________|___________________| | | | | | The History | Links to other | Theosophy | | of | Theosophical | International | | Theosophy | People & Organizations | Projects & Essays | |____________________|_________________________|___________________| | | | | | What's Cooking | News and Events | People Talk | | on Theos-XXX | | | |____________________|_________________________|___________________| Other visual layouts are possible, of course. What's Cooking on Theos-XXX might be better off as a portion of the Links to other Theosophical ... page, even down to just a mention of its existence. Depends on how high a profile we want to risk giving it! :-) Site helpers would spread themselves around these "departments", depending on how many were available to help. I mentioned a roster before; that could appeal if people want to see a structure for change, or it could just be by communicating and consensus, like a good little nucleus of humanity! Who do we have in mind for graphics design? Well, that's been a lot of talking for something that will probably just happen naturally, and differently from this picture, but if we get enough interested people participating, it could set up quite a vortex of activity and we could achieve a lot. Also, we don't have to start with everything at once. It can grow. How about asking people who have already run a theosophical web site, like Paul Gillingwater? Their experience could be very valuable. Are you reading this, Paul? Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From liesel@dreamscape.com Sun Jul 28 12:13:06 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:13:06 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607281319.JAA08701@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members, an addition Dear Murray, and whoever else on TI wants in on this. At the moment, as I see it, we have 2 problems. 1.We're all sort of set on making Alan the loose coordinator, and Alan simply doesn't want the job. 2. Alan and John Crocker (JRC) are both planning a web site for TI. So, before we go ahead with your super suggstions, Murray, I think we ought to settle those 2 questions. Liesel ............................................................................... >Responding to Alan > >>>[Alan quoting Murray] >>>I imagine we'll do what we can with what we've got, but maybe a sort of >>>roster would help us to work together, ie a list of aspects of the Web site >>>with a name opposite each one, and change the assignments around one place >>>every couple of months. It depends on what people want and what they feel >>>they can do, but I think a bit of organisation will help to lubricate the >>>cooperation. It may even be fun. >> >>[Alan] >> .... One useful addition which could be made right now will be links >>to TI members' home pages on the existing TI Web page below. .... >> >>Maybe you could expand on what your idea of "a bit of organisation" >>might mean in terms of the "how" thereof? > >Yes, well organisation can get a bit tricky, can't it? We don't want more >than a minimal amount, I guess, so as to keep the workload down and to avoid >all those things that we don't like in established organisations. On the >other hand, if people don't keep in touch with each other and don't work in >together, it would surely waste a lot of time and effort. > >With no intention of being pessimistic, I don't think it hurts to be aware >of possible problem areas in the future, for instance (IMO) undue editorial >control and little circles of power within bigger circles. We don't want >that stuff in TI, do we? Or do we?? > >As I read it, we just want to get on with the job, and have limited >resources enough as it is, without wasting energy on struggles with each other. > >So, my feeling is to keep any organising of who does what, as flexible as >possible, in order to stay responsive to the needs of the moment. > >And if people offering material for the Web site or trying to decide what to >do about any aspect of it do it through a common arena like theos-buds, then >we have a reasonable chance of developing consensus. The site coordinator >would then generally see that any consensus decision is put into action, >including identifying others in TI or theos-XXX or beyond who can help when >necessary. > >The structure I have in mind is a loose circle of site helpers including the >site coordinator; with leadership able to pass around it rapidly and >flexibly according to whoever happens to have the idea, skill or material >which meets the need of the moment. The coordinator is then one of the >circle, but with sufficient assent from the circle to be able to do the >coordinating job. After some time, say a few months or whatever suits, the >role could go to somebody else, to share the workload around. > >The circle of site helpers would really be as big as TI itself, with people >doing what they are able to, if they are interested. > >Depending on where the Web server computer is, it might be necessary to >separate the roles of site information coordination and technical upkeep and >loading of the information. I haven't seen any messages describing the >setup, so I'm a bit in the dark on what you and JRC have in mind. > >In my post of 22 July 96 titled "Re: TI Members", I suggested a few more >"departments" like a page for news (para 4), a page for the spoken word, >like interviews, anecdotes and testimony (paras 7 and 8), and one for >highlights from theos-XXX (para 3). > >If we add those to JRC's diagram of the links, it would look something like >this: > > __________________________________________________________________ > | | | | > | The | Join | Contact a | > | Three Objects | Theosophy International | TI Member | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > | | | | > | The History | Links to other | Theosophy | > | of | Theosophical | International | > | Theosophy | People & Organizations | Projects & Essays | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > | | | | > | What's Cooking | News and Events | People Talk | > | on Theos-XXX | | | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > > >Other visual layouts are possible, of course. > >What's Cooking on Theos-XXX might be better off as a portion of the Links to >other Theosophical ... page, even down to just a mention of its existence. >Depends on how high a profile we want to risk giving it! :-) > >Site helpers would spread themselves around these "departments", depending >on how many were available to help. I mentioned a roster before; that could >appeal if people want to see a structure for change, or it could just be by >communicating and consensus, like a good little nucleus of humanity! > >Who do we have in mind for graphics design? > >Well, that's been a lot of talking for something that will probably just >happen naturally, and differently from this picture, but if we get enough >interested people participating, it could set up quite a vortex of activity >and we could achieve a lot. Also, we don't have to start with everything at >once. It can grow. > >How about asking people who have already run a theosophical web site, like >Paul Gillingwater? Their experience could be very valuable. Are you reading >this, Paul? > >Murray >Member TI and the TS in NZ > > > From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 16:47:09 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:47:09 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Re: TI members, an addition In-Reply-To: <199607281319.JAA08701@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607281319.JAA08701@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >Dear Murray, and whoever else on TI wants in on this. > >At the moment, as I see it, we have 2 problems. > >1.We're all sort of set on making Alan the loose coordinator, and Alan >simply doesn't want the job. Alan is short on know-how when it comes to Web pages. The existing URL in my sig below is managed by a friend of TI, but enquiries are being made to see if Minn.Net will accept another coordinator. I could take lessons :-) and join in with my share of the work. > >2. Alan and John Crocker (JRC) are both planning a web site for TI. Note: there *is* a web site for TI - see below. John Crocker is planning a new all singing all dancing version :-) > >So, before we go ahead with your super suggstions, Murray, I think we ought >to settle those 2 questions. > Murrays' super suggestions, will, I hope, in the short term at any rate, be taken up and developed (with consensus from the rest of us) by JRC, as he has 1) started the new ball rolling, and 2) has the exerience and expertise. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From mikap@dlc.fi Sun Jul 28 07:00:00 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 00:00:00 -0700 From: mika perdld Message-Id: <31FB0FF0.1AA6@dlc.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: What next for the movement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="MASSES.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOwADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAAEAAAAgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 12:50:10 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 08:50:10 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: what's next for the movement Message-Id: <960728125009_72723.2375_FHP50-2@CompuServe.COM> Mika: >0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOwADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAA>QAAAAAA >AAAAEAAAAgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// etc. It's very possible that the movement will experience this in the near future. : - / - Ann E. Bermingham From pmmkien@main.com Sun Jul 28 13:26:46 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:26:46 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607281319.IAA28366@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Atlantis et al. Regarding my comments on the Mahatma Letters, Eldon Tucker writes: >Theosophy is not, though, a house of cards, standing upon some >scientific tidbits, ready to collapse with the slightest >perturbation. It does not stand or fall on any particular stray >comment made regarding science in some book. > Actually -- a point I'm making is that the scientific titbits are not titbits at all but comprise a large portion of the 19th century literature - everything from the Cosmogenesis, Anthropogenesis - to the later clairvoyant investigations of CWL. It's all science , and pronouncements are often made regarding physical science. There's Atlantis, Lemuria, the rounds and races (that relates to anthropology), Keeley's work, Astronomy. There are also pronouncements on history - what the Chaldeans did or didn't believe. Of course that a large portion of the work is devoted to symbolic and occult business - so called occult science, but most of that can't be checked, so you've no way of telling if it's all BS. But the stuff that can be checked should be checked. In the 20+ years that I've been associated with theosophists, I have noticed that most theosophists distance themselves from the scientific pronouncements and are uneasy about them - possibly because so many of them are plainly wrong. I discussed this once with John Algeo, asking - why the new edition of CWL's "The Inner Life" had been so severely edited. The answer was that the edited portions contained material that was found to disagree with the present findings of science. To me, it all smacks of a coverup of sorts. Theosophists have a tendency when faced with such a discrepancy either to edit the discrepancy out of future editions, or explain them away with statements such as: "Atlantis is only a myth", "The Masters weren't being literal", "This is an occult truth and not a physical one." Or "You, Paul K., have the wrong background and can't be a useful judge of these weighty matters..." These are to my mind all attempts to evade the fact that we are unwilling to put Theosophy to the test, and when we are faced with discrepancies - we are unwilling to admit that these exist. Because IF - Atlantis never had any physical (not to mention etheric or other) existence, the basic teachings DO fall down like a house of cards. If the few statements that can be checked in the teaching turn out to be wrong, then the ones that can't be checked are probably just as wrong. How about "There is no religion higher than truth"? Paul K. From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 14:57:56 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 10:57:56 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Krishna: He's So Fine! Message-Id: <960728145756_73632.105_FHV62-1@CompuServe.COM> Ann Bermingham wrote: >A short while back, someone (probably JHE) said that HPB wrote to get the >attention of the intellectuals of her time and get them interested in occultism. >I offer the theory that Cayce incarnated to reach millions of regular Americans. >I once had a guru that said he though the Beatles incarnated to bring Eastern >thought to the Western world. First they were amazingly popular, then they got >hooked up with an Indian guru and brought some Indian music to the pop scene >(Ravi Shankar). I'm not saying it's true, but it's an interesting idea. >- Ann E. Bermingham Yes, it does appear that esoteric ideas are permeating popular culture. A good example of this is the television show Quantum Leap, where the hero occupies new bodies every week in his quest to return to his origins. Another good tv example is The Highlander, where we see an "immortal" in new social/occupational/national cirumstances in each episode. I believe that the introduction of these themes into popular culture will have the eventual effect of making average persons more receptive to Theosophical ideas, if the TS would only get around to capitalizing on the trend. Unfortunately, the Beatles did not stay with their yogic instruction for very long. They wound up fusing Eastern ideas with LSD experiences. The only member of the group who got into Eastern teachings in more than a superficial way was sitar-playing George Harrison. One wonders, however, how sophisticated a student he was in light of his attempt to create a popular rock tribute to Krishna to the tune of He's So Fine. Maybe his Bhakta tendencies just got the better of him. In spite of the nobility of the cause, his mantra failed to protect him from violation of copyright litigation by the original artists. BTW, would you be willing to share some of your experiences concerning your guru? Do you feel that this was an individual who had actually attained some measure of self-realization or was he/she a garden variety upa-guru? Do you think that your association with this teacher benefitted you in some sort of direct spiritual way, as opposed to verbal/conceptual teachings? --Frank From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 28 16:12:53 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:12:53 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960728121253_371679683@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Teachings? Alan, It depends on the mood I'm in. Like everyone else, I have a dark side. I'm just more honest about it. And you're right. I've only read English translations. I don't know Aramaic. Chuck the Heretic From theos@sure.net Sun Jul 28 16:30:51 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607281630.JAA23784@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: What's next in the movement, Round 2 I just received the late summer edition (Volume 84, number 5) of The American Theosophist (the organ of the ADAYR society in america. I will here present a letter and it's response listed under the title "FREEDOM OF THOUGHT:" "I have been quite impressed with the information that you greet new members with. It is a valuble job well done. I have, however, heard a disturbing rumor that the Society has and will censure people who engage in studies not within the framework considered "Theosophy". I hope I was misinformed. EDITOR's COMMENT: Indeed you were misinformed - misinformation being the lifeblood of rumor. There is a body of Theosophical teachings stemming from H.P.Blavatsky and her teachers, and the Theosophical society makes that body of teaching available. HOWEVER, NO THEOSOPHICAL TEACHING IS OBLIGATORY ON ANY FELLOW OF THE SOCIETY, AND WHAT FELLOWS CHOOSE TO STUDY IS THEIR DECISION ENTIRELY. The general council (the international govorning board) of the Society has made this fully clear in its resolution on "Freedom of thought" which is published regularly in the ADAYR Theosophist ...Here is the resolution: As The Theosophical Society has spread far and wide over the world, and as members of all religions have become members of it without surrendering the special dogmas, teachings, and beliefs of their respective faiths, it is thought desirable to emphasize the fact that THERE IS NO DOCTORINE, NO OPINION, BY WHOMSOEVER TAUGHT OR HELD, THAT IS IN ANY WAY TAUGHT OR HELD, THAT IS IN ANY WAY BINDING ON ANY MEMBER OF THE SOCIETY, NONE WHICH ANY MEMBER IS NOT FREE TO ACCEPT OR REJECT. APPROVAL OF IT"S THREE OBJECTS IS THE SOLE CONSIDERATION OF MEMBERSHIP. No teacher or writer from H.P.Blavatsky downwards, has any authority to impose his teachings or opinions on members. Every member has an equal right to attach himself to any school of thouht which he may choose, but [no member or officer of the society] HAS NO RIGHT TO FORCE HIS CHOICE ON ANY OTHER [MEMBER}..." This is the OFFICAL "Party Line" of the T.S.(ADAYR). My question is, how many of you believe it or have been treated in oposition to this position? Here's a idea: Why doesn't everyone who want's to test this position try for membership and/or resinstatement in the ADAYR society. If anyone was "Removed", perhaps even ask for membership fees to be waived for a period of time and then see what happens. This is called "Lets kick the tires and take it around the block for a spin." I'll organize if you'll participate. I also heard of a meeting in Florada, whose entire membership might transfer based on the above (If they aren't members already.) Sound's to me like the glove has been dropped, wouldn't you say? THERE IS NO RELIGION GREATER THAN TRUTH (Even "Core" Theosophy!) Regards, James Scott Yungkans, F.T.S. From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 16:34:19 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 12:34:19 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Uncola Message-Id: <960728163419_73632.105_FHV32-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank wrote: >There are certainly many other New Age type >activities that those who are not presently ready can engage in so that at some >point in the future they will be able to differentiate between spiritual pabulum >and teachings that have real substance. Ann replied: >This smacks of an arrogance that has no place next to brotherhood. >Although it >may be true, it is best left unspoken. Hmmmph. I feel that the TS should sharply distinguish itself from other groups or systems that stress crystals, tarot, magickal rituals, and similar practices. Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be valuable in imparting a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. But they cannnot substitute for the deeper teachings. It has nothing to do with brotherhood. It is simply a fact. You may recall an old Seven-Up ad campaign that stressed the theme "Wet and Wild". As jazzy as this campaign was, it did not capture market share away from Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, and the other colas that dominated. When the company scrapped the Wet and Wild theme and replaced it with a new campaign featuring "Seven-Up, the Uncola", sales increased dramatically. Technically called product positioning, this strategy differentiated Seven-Up from the pack by accentuating the feature that made it unique. It is not a cola. The TS should follow this strategy. Theosophy is not a cola! It appeals to people who have an interest in psychology or philosophy and are generally more educated than crystal wearing wiccans. It should not try to be all things to all seekers. This should not be left unspoken, IMAO. --Frank From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Jul 29 00:05:02 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:05:02 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960729000502.00699258@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: The Uncola Frank: [writing to Ann] >Hmmmph. I feel that the TS should sharply distinguish itself from other groups >or systems that stress crystals, tarot, magickal rituals, and similar practices. >Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be valuable in imparting >a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. But they cannnot substitute for >the deeper teachings. It has nothing to do with brotherhood. It is simply a >fact. The only problem is when a T.S. fills up with people with no interest in esotericism, but are rather inclined to reject it as "pompous elitism", and under the freedom of belief in a T.S. advocate an "anything goes" style of belief. Then Theosophy, as a body of occult doctrines and specific spiritual practices ends up going underground in the very organizations that were founded to promote it. >You may recall an old Seven-Up ad campaign that stressed the theme "Wet and >Wild". As jazzy as this campaign was, it did not capture market share away from >Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, and the other colas that dominated. When the company >scrapped the Wet and Wild theme and replaced it with a new campaign featuring >"Seven-Up, the Uncola", sales increased dramatically. Technically called product >positioning, this strategy differentiated Seven-Up from the pack by accentuating >the feature that made it unique. It is not a cola. But what if the coke and pepsi drinkers outnumber those for the sevenup in the T.S.? >The TS should follow this strategy. Theosophy is not a cola! It appeals to >people who have an interest in psychology or philosophy and are generally more >educated than crystal wearing wiccans. It should not try to be all things to all >seekers. This should not be left unspoken, IMAO. I'd agree, but we have to be able to explain what sevenup is, and why it is better. Or at least we have to present it as an attractive alternate to the caffine-based drinks. If everyone in a group says, of whatever they drink -- be it beer, wine, spring water, coke, sevenup, etc. -- that whatever they like is what quenches their thirst, and no drink is any better than any other, we won't make any progress in sharing the benefits of sevenup. -- Eldon From mikap@dlc.fi Sun Jul 28 15:50:25 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:50:25 -0700 From: mika perala Message-Id: <31FB8C41.4C5B@dlc.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Maitreya today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! If someone of you have never heard of Share International, you better check out page http:// www.shareintl.org Lot of interesting stuff, starting with a picture of Maitreya who is supposed to live in London. There is also a story about Krishnamurtis role in the spiritual evolution of mankind, new interpretation for me anyway. Well, well... Be prepared! From wichm@xs4all.nl Sun Jul 28 18:13:00 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:13:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Message-Id: <199607281813.UAA24078@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Identity of Masters Paul K. has limited his scenario's as to the fallibility of the teachings of the Masters to three. A fourth is that the Masters were Mme Blavatsky's Guides or Communicators. I do not think that the enquirer into the possible identity of the so-called Masters can do without a study of Spiritualism, channeling, multiple personalities and all that. One cannot ignore the fact that Mme.Blavatsky had been deeply involved in Spiritualism. She may have renounced it for good reasons, but whether she could control her mediumistic faculties is another matter. The Hare Brothers, Gertrude Williams and other commentators have drawn attention to the development of the Mahatma letters from the primitive epistels of Tuitit Bey from the Observatory of Luxor (TRY!), who seem obviously a foreplay for the later far more sophisticated Mahatma letters. Anyone familiar with spirititistic communications cannot be but struck by the familiar authority in which these "entities" always present themselves (Seth). (In fact the inspiration of Biblical prophets by a communicator calling himself "Jahwe" should be seen in the same light.) Whether these manifesting personalities are part of the psyche of the medium or represent actual discarnated spirits is difficult to say. Anyhow, they seem often to bear resemblance to the medium. If one studies these communications through the past 150 years one thing becomes clear, they hardly tell anything new. They represent always the way of thinking of their times. Striking is their moralistic and didactical tone, the temporariness of their teachings and the fallibility of their predictions. Or as PAUL K' states:"Find me evidence of any real spiritual Master of the 19th century who knew the truth unveiled by 20th century science.". One could extend this to spiritistic communicators as well, who also made the sitters believe that they were of high origin, Jesus Himself, Buddha, etc etc. Especially remarkable is the changing identity towards figures that had an appeal in their time. The emergence of ufonauts as communicators, practically absent in 19th century Spiritualism, dominate the post-WW2-channeling scene. After Einstein multi-dimensional personalities emerged (Seth). It is remarkable that these subjects were almost ignored by the Masters. Then there is the development of the handwriting and grammar (Russian grammatical mistakes). Admittedly many were explained by her, but rather inconvincingly. Apparently under influence of Mme.Blavatsky's later hostility towards Spiritualism and the "empty shell" nature of its communicators, faithful Theosophists have shied away from studying the history of Spiritualism with an open mind. >"I suspect that somewhere in Tibet some individuals are right now having a good >laugh", wrote Paul. There is little reason for laughter over there, but whether there is a Master amongst them, is even more doubtful. It seems to me naive to surmise that there are such individuals in Tibet, unless one attaches any credence to the fantasies in Paul Baird's: Masters of Wisdom. I have met a number of Tibetan monks, some from the inner circle of the Dalai Lama. I was always tempted to tell them about the Theosophic Masters and to ask their opinion. Invariably my account was met by laughter and amusement that Westerners could be kidded into believing that such beings ever existed in Tibet. ERNEST EGERTON WOOD. Are the enquirers familiar with his disillusioned book: Is this Theosophy? In 1936 he writes: "I learned to detest theosophical politics, with their hiding of everything that does not redound to the credit of those in power and their perpetual circles of mutual admiration, but I was left with a high regard for the theosophists scattered over the world as a lovable - albeit most innocent and childlike - body of people." MICHAEL R. From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 18:37:53 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 14:37:53 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: To Eldon Re: The MLs Message-Id: <960728183753_76400.1474_HHL29-1@CompuServe.COM> Eldon, I enjoyed your response to Paul and your attempt to defend the MLs. I actually agree with you for the most part. Some quick things: I believe that the MLs say that the sun is not in combustion. This is a remarkable statement coming from last century. The MLs also say that some suns or planets will be heard before they are seen, and this too has come true. While I agree that science has proved some of the MLs right, it has also proved some to be wrong, which is about right for predictions (the future is a world of probabilities, and not even an Adept can always be sure of what will happen). However, as a long-time student of Tibetan Buddhism, I find most of the MLs to be accurate, with only a few slips, probably due to the languages during translation to English. Good essay. Jerry S. Member, TI From mikap@dlc.fi Sun Jul 28 16:35:31 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:35:31 -0700 From: mika perala Message-Id: <31FB96D3.7BFD@dlc.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Disciples wanted! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! Yesterday I send a message looking like this:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA878756HHHHHHH9H9E7RH9ERHG etc. If someone of you understands this extremely esoteric writing I may consider taking that person as my first disciple. Cost is only 5000 dollars for the first two weeks and remember, skills of cooking and general housekeeping are required! Mika P.S. Loved your comment, Ann!*grins**bursts**great amount of amusement* P.S.S. Someday I will learn all these E-mail-things From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 19:01:18 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 15:01:18 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The Uncola Message-Id: <960728190118_76400.1474_HHL71-2@CompuServe.COM> > I feel that the TS should sharply distinguish itself from other groups >or systems that stress crystals, tarot, magickal rituals, and similar practices. >Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be valuable in imparting >a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. But they cannnot substitute for >the deeper teachings. It has nothing to do with brotherhood. It is simply a >fact. Frank, this is not only arrogant, as but misguided. "crystals, tarot, and rituals" are all techniques. You are comparing techniques to "deeper teachings." This is like saying that soup is better than a spoon. But without the spoon, how does one taste the soup? The "fact" of the matter is, rituals and crystals can be used to directly experience those "deeper teachings" that otherwise remain just mental gymnastics. Jerry S. Member, TI From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 20:04:38 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 16:04:38 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: 3 or 4 doors to ..........the 1 Message-Id: <960728200438_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM> There was a little discussion as to what theosophical work might be studied. I suggeted At the Feet of the Master. Many objected to its origins as "impure" or tainted by not being scriptural because it was ghost-written by CWL for Krishnamurt who was supposed to have "received" it from his MASTER. So then we settled on the Voice of the Silence, because it was Blavatsky and not subject to debate, yet some are wondering if the tablets that she read and remembered as inspiration really existed or still exist. I heard a joke which may be apropos about the whole thing: There was a man who saw two doors. One door was marked: "God (or the ONE) and the other was marked: "Books about God." Being a good theosophists he went straight to the door marked "books about God" without hesitation. He went in and read all the books taking many years and finally lifetimes of study. When he got to the last page it said: "now that you have read all the books you can walk through the door marked "God". Blavatsky writes in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE: Three Halls, O weary Pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, [6] will bring thee through three states (14) into the fourth, (15) and thence into the seven Worlds, (16) the Worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE - Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou first saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. (17) The name of Hall the second is the Hall of LEARNING.* {The Hall of Probationary Learning.} In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. (18) [7] The name of the third Hall is WISDOM, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience (19). If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the sunlight of life. Keith: Blavatsky seem to suggest that there are three stages or "rooms". One is ignorance or avidya of maya in which all ensnared. The next is learning which is necessary, but dangerous stage, and then finally wisdom and the Fount of Akshara. A variation of the joke might be that if you walked through the door marked "God", you might arrive in an ante room the so-called inner court of learning, where you would have to stay and read and study and apply the teaching before you could see that there is no door nor rooms that like Dorothy in Kansas you never went to another room, plane, land of Oz at all. That you were with the One all the time. When that happened you would be right back in Kanas and say with Dorothy there is no place like home! And Allan, and you were there, and Ann, you were there and Jerry, JRC and Jim and John and Chuck and KPaul and .... And there was a bad lady who tried to hurt me, but I don't have to travel there again because I know that all I want is right here! Oh Auntie HPB, there is no place like home. Namste Keith Price From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 17:01:19 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 18:01:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: <5YCqlMAfz5+xEw60@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. In-Reply-To: <199607281319.IAA28366@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607281319.IAA28366@main.com>, "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" writes > a point I'm making is that the scientific titbits are not >titbits at all but comprise a large portion of the 19th century literature - >everything from the Cosmogenesis, Anthropogenesis - to the later clairvoyant >investigations of CWL. >>snip<< > but most of that can't be checked, so >you've no way of telling if it's all BS. But the stuff that can be checked >should be checked. Indeed it should. > >In the 20+ years that I've been associated with theosophists, I have noticed >that most theosophists distance themselves from the scientific >pronouncements and are uneasy about them - possibly because so many of them >are plainly wrong. I discussed this once with John Algeo, asking - why the >new edition of CWL's "The Inner Life" had been so severely edited. The >answer was that the edited portions contained material that was found to >disagree with the present findings of science. Some of us who are concerned with such old-fashioned notions like integrity, honesty, truth, etc., ar every bit as uneasy as you are, and seek to rectify matters. Theosophy International grew partly our of a perceived need in this area. One "cyberpoint" was made when I uploaded the text of CWL about Life on Mars ... :-) > >To me, it all smacks of a coverup of sorts. Theosophists have a tendency >when faced with such a discrepancy either to edit the discrepancy out of >future editions, or explain them away with statements such as: "Atlantis is >only a myth", "The Masters weren't being literal", "This is an occult truth >and not a physical one." Or "You, Paul K., have the wrong background and >can't be a useful judge of these weighty matters..." This appears to be true of The Adyar based Societies, and dyed-in-the- wool theosophical fundamentalists (almost a contraditiob in terms). It is most definitely *not* true of all of us. I recently posted some old and newly discovered material on the CWL affair to theos-roots, partly in order to correct such generalisations, and partly to set the record a bit straighter. If you would like copies, I can e-mail them to you. > > These are to my mind all attempts to evade the fact that we are unwilling >to put Theosophy to the test, and when we are faced with discrepancies - >we are unwilling to admit that these exist. Because IF - Atlantis never had >any physical (not to mention etheric or other) existence, the basic >teachings DO fall down like a house of cards. If the few statements that can >be checked in the teaching turn out to be wrong, then the ones that can't be >checked are probably just as wrong. Which is why many theosophists are themselves skeptical about some theosophical writings (19th > early 20th centuries). > >How about "There is no religion higher than truth"? > Let's go for it, and *stick* with it*! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From theos@sure.net Sun Jul 28 20:52:48 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607282052.NAA27159@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Alan's Comments on Nazis Observing the folliwing Dialogue: >> Crucifixion was too good for anyone spouting that garbage. > >Crucifixion is a horrible death, especially suitable (so they said) for heretics ... > >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >.. who advocates crucifying and burning large numbers of people to >death. The Nazis used gas ovens - maybe you would like to start a >program for the use of these in the USA to dispose of the unnamed >millions on your hit list? > >Alan :-( > And maybe we should include a side comment like "...they should be quick about it, and decrease the Surplus Population." How many people realize what KARMA we of the theosophical bent actually hold to those who died due to misinterpretation of the theosophical tennants. How many realize that H.P.B.'s doctorines help spawn the literaly hundreds of mentaphysical groups in germany in the 1920's and 1930's (which were mot far removed than our current 'New Age' movement, as 1932 and 'eternal return' were mentioned in an earlier post). How many realize that the Nazi propaganda machine used our Root-Race concepts to justify the Extermination of the Semetic race in order to speed progress tward the upcomming 6th Race? How many truely realize that, if the Nazis had completed their progress that we, as theosophists, would share in that annialation by virtue of our tennants being misrepresented. There is nothing new as this is THE VERY REASON THESE TEACHINGS WERE KEPT FROM THE UNINITIATED FOR CENTURIES. Be more cautious in your words, as you never know when they may come back to haunt you (Perhaps even in an oven.) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 22:01:18 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 18:01:18 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: He's so fine Message-Id: <960728220118_72723.2375_FHP29-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank: >BTW, would you be willing to share some of your experiences concerning your >guru? Do you feel that this was an individual who had actually attained some >measure of self-realization or was he/she a garden variety upa-guru? Do you >think that your association with this teacher benefitted you in some sort of >direct spiritual way, as opposed to verbal/conceptual teachings? A rather interesting set of questions since I saw the guru for the first time in five years while I attended the death/rebirth ritual of one his favorite disciples. The disciple was considered to be next in line to take over. He died instantly of a cerebral hemmorage in his late forties. It was very emotional, but in a positive way, seeing him and my old friends, most of who are still his devoted disciples. I have no idea if he was "upa-guru", but I thank him from the bottom of my heart that he gave me the knowledge and training to be where I am now. With all you fine people in the Theosophical movement. - Ann E. Bermingham From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 22:20:26 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 18:20:26 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The Uncola Message-Id: <960728222025_72723.2375_FHP40-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank: >Hmmmph. I feel that the TS should sharply distinguish itself from other groups. . . >Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be valuable in imparting >a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. But they cannnot substitute for >the deeper teachings. It has nothing to do with brotherhood. It is simply a fact. It may be a fact that a person has two noses, but it would not be kind or compassionate to point it out. - Ann E. Bermingham From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 22:09:36 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 23:09:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: What's next in the movement, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <199607281630.JAA23784@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607281630.JAA23784@sure.net>, James S Yungkans writes (Quoting the official TS statement): >Every member has an equal right to attach himself to >any school of thouht which he may choose, I was summarily expelled from the Committee of my own Lodge (of which I had also been president) for joining and promoting Theosophy International and - wait for it - THE INTERNET! Alan (UK member at large) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 22:06:03 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 23:06:03 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Alan's Comments on Nazis In-Reply-To: <199607282052.NAA27159@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607282052.NAA27159@sure.net>, James S Yungkans writes >Be more cautious in your words, as you never know when they may come back to >haunt you (Perhaps even in an oven.) Good advice for all of us, I am sure, especially you and me. Maybe more for you, as I do not share the conventional view of reincarnation :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 21:59:57 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:59:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Ernest Wood In-Reply-To: <199607281813.UAA24078@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607281813.UAA24078@magigimmix.xs4all.nl>, wichm@xs4all.nl writes >ERNEST EGERTON WOOD. >Are the enquirers familiar with his disillusioned book: Is this Theosophy? >In 1936 he writes: "I learned to detest theosophical politics, with their >hiding of everything that does not redound to the credit of those in power >and their perpetual circles of mutual admiration, but I was left with a high >regard for the theosophists scattered over the world as a lovable - albeit >most innocent and childlike - body of people." > >MICHAEL R. I uploaded some sections from this book to theos-roots a while back, mainly relating to his experience at Adyar with Leadebeater during the writing of the "Lives." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 28 23:12:01 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:12:01 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960728191159_586865806@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What next for the movement Mika, huh? Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Jul 28 23:11:54 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:11:54 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960728191153_586865832@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: what's next for the movement Ann, Oh, dear! I hope not. Chuck the Heretic From roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net Sun Jul 28 21:39:24 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:39:24 -0400 From: Bjorn Roxendal Message-Id: <199607282337.RAA17022@alpinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Books on the web Martin: Bjorn, Alan: I've already uploaded the Ocean to the Spiritweb archive, >but I think that I will also make it available on my own homepage. >It's just making a link to Theosophical books, let people pick one of the items >and download it (maybe in parts, but I think I will assemble the separate >chapters into one file). IOW a simple HTML file with options is adequate. What works best seems to be to have the texts available directly in HTML format. Can even be ASCII as "preformatted" HTML. In that way it is immediately accessible and many more people will actually read it (or portions of it). Is this what you have in mind? Bjorn From jmeier@microfone.net Sun Jul 28 19:51:46 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:51:46 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199607282351.AA29894@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Full moon in Leo A full moon with the sun in Leo occurs this Tuesday morning, July 30 at 06:36am EST (10:36am GMT) Leo is the 5th of the 12 labors of Hercules, and one of the best known: the slaying of the lion. The great Nemean lion had terrorized the people of Nemea, devouring many, and none could withstand him. Hercules tracked the lion to his cave and, dropping all his weapons, faced the lion directly and strangled him with his hands. Leo is the sign of the Sun, the "will-ful" sign. At first it is the personal and selfish little will, but the polar opposite of Leo is Aquarius and at the end of the labor that begins in Leo the disciple can say "Not my will but Thy Will" be done. In the first labor of Aires, the beginnings of mental control were established. In Taurus, the lower/animal nature was disciplined. In Gemini, Hercules first makes contact with the higher Self and learns the duality of soul and body. In Cancer, Hercules learns that intuition must direct the intellect (and that intuition must be sought over and over again). Now, in Leo the "actual work" of discipleship begins, as Hercules struggles and subdues the lion, the powerful self that has brought so much damage and suffering to those in need. A group meditation on "Letting in the Light" will be held Monday evening at 7pm EST, with the theme of the energies available in Leo. From poulsen@dk-online.dk Sun Jul 28 16:17:29 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 14:17:29 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB7C8F.A1FB7740@pp176.dk-online.dk> Subject: VOS footnotes (1) Encoding: 54 TEXT As promised, I will make a few notes as the VOS dicussion gets going. Mostly on the terms, the ideas behind the sentences and the possibility for scholarly corroboration. First - the origin of the text. I am aware of two statements regarding the text, one by HPB in the introduction connecting it to the Yogacharya School, and the other by CWL in the intro to "Light on the Path" which states it to be from a work by Aryasanga - better known as Asanga, founder of the Yogacharya School. The first is undoubted (as I will show with a few verses) and the second is highly probable: Asanga was the adept of the school, a preacher of brotherly love, an interpreter of esoteric meaning in texts (artha) and claiming to be a pupil of Maitreya, the Buddha to come. One peculiarity of the yogarcharyas is that they often prefer yoga terms (like Patanjali's) to the pali terms. I will give the definitions of the lesser known words with ITRANS transliteration in brackets, this is the best way to render the words in ASCII. dharana (dhaaraNa, dharaNa) from dhaara, dhara - to hold, bear, support: wearing, supporting, mental concentration, upholding a state of mental focus and concentration. nada (nad.h) utter a sound or cry, resound As dharana plays a vital part in the VOS I think it best to explain the term in full. Just as with the eight-fold path (of which right samadhi is the eight part), at the threshold of the four truths so raja yoga has its eight steps (see Yoga Sutras, 2.29). These are connected in pairs to a plane of being. Connected to the 6th or astral, emotional plane is 1) yama and 2) niyama. An emotional nature controlled by regulations and self-restraint. The astral nature is curbed even before sitting for meditation. Connected to the 7th or physical plane is 3) asana and 4) pranayama - a sitting posture is taken (aasana) and the breath controlled (praaNaayaama). Connected to the 5th or mental plane is 5) pratyahara and 6) dharana. First pratyahara (pratyaahaara) abstraction, witholding (the senses), retreat (from the objective world). The lower mind is calmed by resorting to the nature of the higher mind. Then 6) dharana, concentration, focus. The lower mind is evoked again, but this time focussed on the real. Connected to the 4th or buddhic plane is 7) dhyana and 8) samadhi. Concrete and abstract levels of buddhic plane. Meditation and its goal - the state of samadhi. This should explain why dharana is the sixth state. Dharana, dhyana and samadhi is often considered together corresponding to manas-buddhi-atma or rather manas, buddhi-manas, atma-buddhi. (see Mahayanasutralamkara 18.71-79) In a future post would like to add a few extracts from the Mahayanasutralamkara of Asanga and a commentary upon it, all of them interesting and some of them strongly supportive of the claim that the VOS has a yogacharya origin. From blafoun@azstarnet.com Sun Jul 28 18:02:30 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:02:30 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607281802.LAA04660@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: This is a test ---5 (IV) OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING MASTER KOOT HOOMI IN NOVEMBER, 1883 ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF LAHORE, INDIA. Colonel Olcott=92s account of meeting the Master K.H at Lahore is to be= found in the third volume of Olcott=92s OLD DIARY LEAVES: "I was sleeping in my tent, the night of the 19th, when I rushed back towards external consciousness on feeling a hand laid on me. The camp being on the open plain, and beyond the protection of the Lahore Police, my first animal instinct was to protect myself from a possible religious fanatical assassin, so I clutched the stranger by the upper arms, and asked him in Hindustani who he was and what he wanted. It was all done in an instant, and I held the man tight, as would one who might be attacked the next moment and have to defend his life. But the next moment a kind, sweet voice said: =91Do you not know me? Do you not remember me?=92 It was the voice of the Master K.H. . . .I relaxed my hold on his arms, joined my palms in reverential salutation, and wanted to jump out of bed to show him respect. But his hand and voice stayed me, and after a few sentences had been exchanged, he took my left hand in his, gathered the fingers of his right into the palm, and stood quiet beside my cot, from which I could see his divinely benignant face by the light of the lamp that burned on a packing-case at his back. Presently I felt some soft substance forming in my hand, and the next minute the Master laid his kind hand on my forehead, uttered a blessing, and left my half of the large tent to visit Mr. W.T. Brown, who slept in the other half behind a canvas screen that divided the tent into two rooms. When I had time to pay attention to myself, I found myself holding in my left hand a folded paper enwrapped in a silken cloth. To go to the lamp, open and read it, was naturally my first impulse. I found it to be a letter of private counsel. . . On hearing an exclamation from=85[Brown=92s] side of the screen, I went in there and he showed me a silk-wrapped letter of like appearance to mine though of different contents, which he said had been given him much as mine had been to me, and which we read together. . . .The next evening. . .we two and Damodar sat in my tent, at 10 o=92clock, waiting for an expected visit from Master K.H. . . .We sat= on chairs at the back of the tent so as not to be observed from the camp: the moon was in its last quarter and had not risen. After some waiting we heard and saw a tall Hindu approaching from the side of the open plain. He came to within a few yards of us and beckoned Damodar to come to him, which he did. He told him that the Master would appear within a few minutes, and that he had some business with Damodar. It was a pupil of Master K.H. Presently we saw the latter coming from the same direction, pass his pupil. . .and stop in front of our group, now standing and saluting in the Indian fashion, some yards away. Brown and I kept our places, and Damodar went and conversed for a few minutes with the Teacher, after which he returned to us and the king-like visitor walked away. I heard his footsteps on the ground. . . .Before retiring, when I was writing my Diary, the pupil lifted the *portiere*, beckoned to me, and pointed to the figure of his Master [K.H.], waiting for me out on the plain in the starlight. I went to him, we walked off to a safe place at some distance where intruders need not be expected, and then for about a half-hour he told me what I had to know. . . .There were no miracles done at the interview. . .just two men talking together, a meeting, and a parting when the talk was over. . . ." (pp. 37-39, 43-45) = =20 From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 19:15:06 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 15:15:06 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Not losing it - What is it? Message-Id: <960728191505_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith: While concentrating on the voice while doing menial everyday tasks I was amazingly productive. I saw my machine like movements as a ritual to the >envocation of the VOICE in every little action. Every little action became a >sacred hatha yoga. >I felt a new connection to those around me. I felt linked to the study of the >VOICE in a new way. By the way, the mail-out was finished in record time and >amazed everyone who from past experience expected it to last much longer I have found this approach can have remarkable success. It does not seem to matter whether I link it to a specific idea (like VOS) or not. It is the *practice* of performing everyday, repetitive tasks with a *spiritual* intent that does the trick. The common factor is the record speed in which the menial task is completed - and usually very well! Alan --------- Have a connection to a Higher Self, Higher Power, Inner Master, is seems is essential for right thought, right action, right feelings etc. When one is not connected it is easy to get into selfish anger type reactions, depression, self-pity or egotistical grandiosity. (IN MY HUMBLE EXPERIENCE) In American slang, we have the expressions: "I lost it!, Don't lose it, I am goint to lose it, I am losing it etc." What is it? It seems to be the connection with the higher self that allows action in poise ,serenity, and connection to an inner guidance. Christiams would call it the Holy Spirit. Blavatsky seems to call it the Voice of the Silence. I have noticed that spiritual people are supposed to be always calm and cool even in emergencies. Yet Jesus overthrew the moneychangers and Buddha showed a lot of pevishness about certain spiritual paths such as acestism and overindulgence, coming finally to the middle way of a flexible bow that bends, but does not break. How do you keep your spiritual connection during the day in all the little frustrations that make up everyday life? It seems like being "professional" is our modern euphimism for being "spiritual" in that one is not allowed to express anger directly, but always how compassion. If one loses it and call the boss a ____, one can be written up for disciplinary action for not being professional as if the corporation was some king of monastary which is some ways it resembles although the goal is material progress and profit rather than community service in the form of personal spiritual growth. Although corporations allow a great opportunity for spiritual growth and new age seminars seem all the fad at some companies like Microsoft, I think> Are you growning with the corporation as a spiritual entitity? Namaste Keith PRice From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 20:05:00 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 16:05:00 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: VOS origins (Kim and John Mead) Message-Id: <960728200459_74024.3352_BHT128-2@CompuServe.COM> Kim: In a future post would like to add a few extracts from the Mahayanasutralamkara of Asanga and a commentary upon it, all of them interesting and some of them strongly supportive of the claim that the VOS has a yogacharya origin. Keith: I look forward to this discussion as I am somewhat confused by Blavatsky's seeming preference for yogacharya as opposed to madyamika (the middle way). This is NOT my strong point, but what I am tempted to think is that yogacharya is more ascetic about killing out the senses and enfolding one's "True Self" in the atma-buddhi as opposed to the less ascetic middle way of madymika which suggest nothing in excess even "spirituality". I think this is a major theme for modern readers and KPaul has already brought it up. Also John Mead wanted to know about the existence of the physical tablets of the "Kiu-Ti". If anybody knows the latest on this, I would like to know also. I have heard that they are in some library, according to Bing Escuedero and are under another name. He asked the Dali Lama about them. I think he saw some Buddhist monks at the library where they were at. I am sure someone knows more. I also assume that the inablility to produce these tablets in one of the major reasons why Blavatsky's work is not taken seriously by academics in archeology, philology and other disciplines, for expample. Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Sun Jul 28 20:04:38 1996 Date: 28 Jul 96 16:04:38 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: 3 or 4 doors to ..........the 1 Message-Id: <960728200438_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM> There was a little discussion as to what theosophical work might be studied. I suggeted At the Feet of the Master. Many objected to its origins as "impure" or tainted by not being scriptural because it was ghost-written by CWL for Krishnamurt who was supposed to have "received" it from his MASTER. So then we settled on the Voice of the Silence, because it was Blavatsky and not subject to debate, yet some are wondering if the tablets that she read and remembered as inspiration really existed or still exist. I heard a joke which may be apropos about the whole thing: There was a man who saw two doors. One door was marked: "God (or the ONE) and the other was marked: "Books about God." Being a good theosophists he went straight to the door marked "books about God" without hesitation. He went in and read all the books taking many years and finally lifetimes of study. When he got to the last page it said: "now that you have read all the books you can walk through the door marked "God". Blavatsky writes in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE: Three Halls, O weary Pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, [6] will bring thee through three states (14) into the fourth, (15) and thence into the seven Worlds, (16) the Worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE - Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou first saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. (17) The name of Hall the second is the Hall of LEARNING.* {The Hall of Probationary Learning.} In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. (18) [7] The name of the third Hall is WISDOM, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience (19). If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the sunlight of life. Keith: Blavatsky seem to suggest that there are three stages or "rooms". One is ignorance or avidya of maya in which all ensnared. The next is learning which is necessary, but dangerous stage, and then finally wisdom and the Fount of Akshara. A variation of the joke might be that if you walked through the door marked "God", you might arrive in an ante room the so-called inner court of learning, where you would have to stay and read and study and apply the teaching before you could see that there is no door nor rooms that like Dorothy in Kansas you never went to another room, plane, land of Oz at all. That you were with the One all the time. When that happened you would be right back in Kanas and say with Dorothy there is no place like home! And Allan, and you were there, and Ann, you were there and Jerry, JRC and Jim and John and Chuck and KPaul and .... And there was a bad lady who tried to hurt me, but I don't have to travel there again because I know that all I want is right here! Oh Auntie HPB, there is no place like home. Namste Keith Price From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 28 21:20:20 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:20:20 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: <3CgvIAAUm9+xEwb8@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Not losing it - What is it? In-Reply-To: <960728191505_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960728191505_74024.3352_BHT128-1@CompuServe.COM>, Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes > >Have a connection to a Higher Self, Higher Power, Inner Master, is seems is >essential for right thought, right action, right feelings etc. When one is not >connected it is easy to get into selfish anger type reactions, depression, >self-pity or egotistical grandiosity. (IN MY HUMBLE EXPERIENCE) Mine too. > > Are you growning with the corporation as a spiritual entitity? > Nope. I am retired :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Mon Jul 29 04:08:25 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:08:25 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: TI members, an addition In-Reply-To: <199607281319.JAA08701@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Dear Murray, and whoever else on TI wants in on this. > > At the moment, as I see it, we have 2 problems. > 1.We're all sort of set on making Alan the loose coordinator, and Alan > simply doesn't want the job. > > 2. Alan and John Crocker (JRC) are both planning a web site for TI. > > So, before we go ahead with your super suggstions, Murray, I think we ought > to settle those 2 questions. At least to question 2 ... Alan and I are cooperating - `tis not two different web sites - he arranged a site, I was starting to program a real fancy page (-:) - but in the meantime Alan got the stuff that was on Rudy's site (I think) and moved it - and stuff has sorta been added to that ... but (damn! so little time! my knigdom for an extra hour every day!) when I get time to do it I think the stuff I'm doing (with everyone's approval) will join the stuff already at the site. Regards ... -JRC From michelle@zip.com.au Mon Jul 29 21:52:57 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 22:02:57 +10 From: "Michelle Donald" Message-Id: <199607291135.VAA28145@zipper.zip.com.au> Subject: TI Web Site (was TI - an Addition) > Responding to Alan and Liesel and John and Murray and lurkers..... Hi I've been away for quite a while then busy catching up, so finally got some time again. So Hello again everyone. --------- BIG SNIP ---------------- Well done Murray - takes me back to that Education Committee... > If we add those to JRC's diagram of the links, it would look something like > this: > > __________________________________________________________________ > | | | | > | The | Join | Contact a | > | Three Objects | Theosophy International | TI Member | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > | | | | > | The History | Links to other | Theosophy | > | of | Theosophical | International | > | Theosophy | People & Organizations | Projects & Essays | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > | | | | > | What's Cooking | News and Events | People Talk | > | on Theos-XXX | | | > |____________________|_________________________|___________________| > I would be happy to put some things together about links to other TS orgainizations. Been wanting to put this somewhere for ages - I would like to make sure we inlude contact details of Orgs and Sections not currently online as well as links to those that are - Is this what others have in mind or does the TI site want to have live links only? Seems to me TI would be the only place that would show all other TS orgs regardless of flavour. A great place then for folk all over the world to get in touch with their closest group/branch what ever, for when they wish to meet in the flesh rather than in cyberspace. If putting non live links is OK it would take a few weeks to gather all the information. I can write HTML so would be able to give you final copy. BTW who is going to upload the pages set the privls etc... Also would the text and layout need to be placed here first for consensus (sp??!!). > How about asking people who have already run a theosophical web site, like > Paul Gillingwater? Their experience could be very valuable. Are you reading > this, Paul? I doubt that Paul would have read to the bottom of this - might I suggest you email him directly??? BFN OOROO Michelle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - michelle@zip.com.au Get On-Line Internet Training and Database Services http://www.arch.unsw.edu.au/netcourse/ From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 29 21:38:04 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 22:38:04 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: Re: TI Web Site (was TI - an Addition) In-Reply-To: <199607291135.VAA28145@zipper.zip.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607291135.VAA28145@zipper.zip.com.au>, Michelle Donald writes >> Responding to Alan >and Liesel and John and Murray and lurkers..... >Hi I've been away for quite a while then busy catching up, so finally got >some time again. So Hello again everyone. Hello again! > >--------- BIG SNIP ---------------- > >Well done Murray - takes me back to that Education Committee... > >>snip of diag.<< > >I would be happy to put some things together about links to other TS >orgainizations. Been wanting to put this somewhere for ages - I would >like to make sure we inlude contact details of Orgs and Sections not >currently online as well as links to those that are - Is this what >others have in mind or does the TI site want to have live links only? Contact details of Orgs etc. not online is, IMO, one of the things that could be unique to the TI ethos, and I for one am all in favour :-) > >Seems to me TI would be the only place that would show all other >TS orgs regardless of flavour. A great place then for folk all over >the world to get in touch with their closest group/branch what ever, >for when they wish to meet in the flesh rather than in cyberspace. > If TI is to advance, meetings in the flesh will be part of that advance. >If putting non live links is OK it would take a few weeks to gather >all the information. I can write HTML so would be able to give you >final copy. You have my vote in favor :-) > >BTW who is going to upload the pages set the privls etc... Also would >the text and layout need to be placed here first for consensus >(sp??!!). This is being looked into - watch this space. > >> How about asking people who have already run a theosophical web site, like >> Paul Gillingwater? Their experience could be very valuable. Are you reading >> this, Paul? > >I doubt that Paul would have read to the bottom of this - might I >suggest you email him directly??? Will do. Maybe, Michelle, you would like to sign up as a TI member - you are not on the current list! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 05:11:55 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 01:11:55 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Full Moon in Aquaraius meditation - Impure TS Yoga?? Message-Id: <960729051154_74024.3352_BHT139-3@CompuServe.COM> The moon is approaching full in aquarius opppostion to sun in Leo. The Alice Bailey esoteric meaning of Leo is I am THAT and THAT I am. Aquarius is Water of Life I am poured forth for thirsty men. As we link with mediators around the world we link withe astral waters, the electirc vibrations the etheric fluids of creativity eminent in the Heirarchy and flowing through us in meditation on an individual and group level, I hope. Thus th creative Heirarchy becomes active in us as a Guardian Wall of Humanity and Masters linked for the purpose of cosmic evolution and protection against the forces of chaos, sometime hidden but now exposed from the subatomic to the virus to the terrorism manifestations. The mediations at the full moon revivify our immune systems and the immune system of the planet being attacked by the Brothers of the Shadow encapsuled in bombs and HIV viruses exploding to bring down the work of the Heirarchy but the forces of light are quick to limit there effects and sweep clean the debris from the planet and bring the scales of karma into balance as above so below, as in the individual so in the global and cosmic. Lead us and the planet into the Heart of love and hope of the Solar Logos -wordless word, soundless voice of creation! Many planets remain retrograde making this a time of house cleaning on all levels before progress can be directly continued on the outter planes, I guess. As far a meditaion goes, I am notincing a great deal of scintilantions in my physcial body and jerking movements in my limbs. I think this is symbolic of thunder and earthquake like movements in Gaia, our mother womb. The fog of the ego becomes lifted and I fly through the clear skys of spirit refreshed like an eagle soaring. I do not know if theosophy or TS yoga would think this impure. As the body and mind are supposed to be be risen above in the raja tradition, but the vehicles should be alligned for true use of will when all the 7 yogas of the seven levels allow the linking or yoking to the evolutionary guiding energies. And while we are on impurity, did anyone attending summer school hear that computers are being pushed by the Kern people, leading to Olcott and possibly Adyar invaded by the impurity of the organs of cyber-space, against the will of some our leader possibly. Maybe the 'impurity" will create a ferilization and release from the sterility of the past. Karma seems to demand movement while hating it. Karma seeks the balance of the next higher level, Chaos seeks the balance of the lower level yet sometime creates a quatumn leap according to some. There is only one Will, I can cooperate or provide the friction necessary for the operation of the wheels perhaps. Involvement in the world process seems not to be the choice, direction is. Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 05:11:19 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 01:11:19 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Myalba - Heaven or Hell or Both and All Message-Id: <960729051118_74024.3352_BHT139-1@CompuServe.COM> In the glossary to VOICE OF THE SILENCE appears: . (35) Myalba is our earth --pertinently called "hell", and the greatest of all hells, by the esoteric school. The esoteric doctrine knows of no hell, or place of punishment, other than a man-bearing planet or earth. Avitchi is a state, and not a locality. Keith: I think this is a little discussed "doctrine" in the goody-goody neo-platonic tradition of some theosophists. Bing Escudero had a "debate" on a plane with a fundamentalists precher and had him convinced that there is no place lower than earth, because if we could imagine it we would be there! I think there is a lot of food for thought in this short glossary entry. Our man-bearing globe, designated globe D in the SD and malkuth (kingdom) in the Kabalistic tradition represent a manifested "hell". Qlippoth seems to be sort of inverse reflected Sephira or consciouness states associated a negative state of consciousness to every positive divine Sephiroth - a kind of avichi and repository for the dregs and laggards of each globe still struggling to influence evolution. The other globes and Sephira are not perfect, but more "spiritual" infused. Matter seems to be densest and most powerful in the place we share together at this minute. Suppposedly men-like entities exist on Venus, Mars and the moon, but we cannot see them because we are not in synch with them. They are in a type of parallel mode to our globe and humanity will progress to other man-bearing globes and the laggard will be left behing when the "door is closed" Avitichi is not a globe but a state of utter depravity, selfishness and separation from the Will, Love and WIsdom of the Logoi. The black magician creates his own waveless state at the opposite pole of nirvana which is portrayed more as a kind of perpetual motion machine self-contained, in perfect unitive bliss of Kether/Nirvana/Heavan. The 8th globe of Purucker doesn't appear that often in the literature, but is very provocative also. I am posting this to theos-l as I think it goes beyong the discussion of the VOS to some very dirrect concerns expressed again and again on theos-l about supposed "core teachings". Dear Eldon can we make Mylba into a heaven? In the Golden Dawn tradition, the earth, malkuth is portrayed as a kind of dusky color of olive, brown, marron and grey as a sort of mixture of the pure colors of the other Sephia in a murky turmoil. The cosmic Christ is crucified on the Auric Tree of Life. Tipereth beats with the divine energy of the sun providing a flow of waves of fluidic energy of sustanence and creative energy sometime calld kundalini or Fohat perhaps. The paths are the Ida, Pingala and Sushuma After Daath or the anatakarana is passed the goal is seen and the thousand petal lotus blooms again in our activated third eye/pineal gland as kether/heaven/nirvana, I would suggest. I don't know about you, but I getting hungry for a veggie svabahva burger about now :) Namaste Keith Price From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 05:23:58 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:23:58 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729012357_166445211@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Maitreya today I wish I could be as good a crook as Benjamin Creme. He is really raking it with his "Maitreya" scam. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 05:25:11 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:25:11 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729012510_166445286@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Alan's Comments on Nazis Thank goodness I have a machine that gives my karma to the neighbors! Chuck the Heretic From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 29 02:02:37 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:56:22 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607290558.AA22775@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Israely TS Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= Hello all! Is there a theosophical lodge in Israel? If so, please report me their e-mail or snail mail address. I wanna contact them in order to find a russian translation of SD made before the revolution. It was lost (excluding some short parts), so in 30's a new translation by E. Roerich was made, but it isn't much satisfactory. When our TS chairman mr. Popov visited Adyar, he was said there that this text still exists somewhere in Israel. Please forward it in Alt.theosophy Konstantin. Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru PS from Uri Macnev: Please forward it in Alt.theosophy because this conference don't accessible for me. From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 29 02:02:45 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:55:36 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607290558.AA22772@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Shoking statistic Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= For: "K. Paul Johnson" Subj: Shocking statistic k> RUDOLF STEINER 1210!! k> Can anyone offer a hint to explain this (to me anyhow) quite k> unexpected fact? I think it's because that Steiner's teaching is a simplified version of theosophy, even more simplifyed than CWL's. It makes these books more attractive. k> More than a dozen times as many as Bailey, k> who I always put in the same league with him Why? Bailey's teaching a contrary in some points is very soph- isticated and never attracted very much followers. (But in Russia books of Bailey maybe are more popular than Steiner's because almost all of them are translated. But any- way, I didn't met personally any followers of Bailey - i don't know who translates these books) If you know WWW or Email address of any Bailey societies or foundarions - please report. Konstantin Zaitzev 2:5020/360.4 Fidonet Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 29 02:03:04 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:55:57 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607290558.AA22773@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: TS yoga Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= For: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: TS yoga M> Just sharing information... Some notes on this... M> 1. Agni Yoga, given out by Master M., (14 vols. published by Roerichs) is M> an INTENSELY PRACTICAL system. It may be called 'yoga of energy,' or more Some people don't believe that it's really practical. For example, i find it entertaining reading, but some people find there praxis. It's because of different ray types (see Bailey ;) of readers, IMHO. M> discern in it some kind of yoga at all. Even reading of Agni-yoga is a practical yoga, imho. The se- quence of paragraphs has its special repeating rhythm which may affect chakras, imho - "energy follows thought" as Bailey writes. M> 2. Alice Bailey books--I mean those channeled from Master D.K.--promise Most interesting books on theosophy i ever read. :) Roerich followers deny Bailey & say that she was inspired by Black lodge. It's because of E. Roerich letter when she writes about "tibetian teacher" & book called "white magic". The let- ter was written in 1934 or 37. When "Treatise on white magic" was originally published? If after 1937, Baileys reputation will be saved. A contrary, Bailey in "Treatise on white magic" proves authority of Agni-Yoga. M> Fortunately for those interested, Arcane School founded by AB offers a M> complete correspondence course of studies and practice spanning over at Does Arcane School have WWW server? I'm interesting in Bailey Books in files. I haven't read "TCF" (most other AAB books are available in Russian). M> 1. Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga. It is essentially identical with M> theosophy. But Aurobindo regarded theosophy as false teaching. Since his conceptions closely meet "CWL-style" theosophy, it was probably simply plagiarism. Almost similiar situation with Swami Vivekananda. But russian theosophists printed him in their journal "Vestnik Theosophii". It's called "to warm a serpent" :) Konstantin. Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From saf@angel.elektra.ru Mon Jul 29 02:03:18 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:54:58 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607290558.AA22771@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Atlantida Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= For: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Subj: Atlantida p> Can anyone tell me where to look for Atlantis and Lemuria? In late period of Atlantis, there were two main islands, each one approx. like Spain in size. The eastern was a south of mountain Tenerife (it was a northern mountain of the island & exceeded Monteblanc in height). The western one was somewhere in Caribean region, maybe in Saragassa see. One was called Daitia, the second - Rutha (I've forgot which of them). But it doesn't mean that you should look for remains there - those regions were more destroyed than others. It would be best to look on perepherial areas. I cannot say smth. on Lemuria - it was so long ago... ;) But HPB is _wrong_ when she writes that the giant statues on the island of Rapa-nui are remains of Lemuria. Reasearches by Thor Heyerdahl showed that they are midaeval. He found others, more ancient statues which were less and matched southamerican ones. When first europeans visited this island, the statues stood, but later they were layd down by island inhabitants. It looks very suspicious - they didn't fall millions of years when entire continents were destroyed, but were layd down by a wild polynesians. The stone roads, which lead to see shore had no prolongation under the water, too. To save a HPB's reputa- tion, i should note that she borrowed this information from some european author (I forgot which from), but not from the mahatmas. For more information see "Aku-aku" by Thor Heyerdahl. Here i quote some facts which prove information on Atlantis, because someone here criticized it. In Yakutia (USSR), on the bank of river Bereleh, there were fo- und a lot of mammonth bones. Radiocarbone analysis showed that they died 12000 years ago (it matches the theosophical date of Atlantis catastrophe - 9564 B.C., june or july). They all died simultaneously by unknown reason - rather by water. By remains of meal on their stomachs it was defined that it happened in summer. Soviet scientists who explored a bottom of Karskoe see (north of Russia) discovered that Gulfstream didn't reach Nordic Icy ocean before. But 10-12000 years ago it did. It was like some barrier disappeared, which prevented gulfstream of reaching nordic seas. American scientists reported that 12000 years ago volcanic ac- tivity in Atlantic ocean was extremely high. They defined it by layers of volcanic powder on the ocean bottom. In 50s american archaeologists have found in mountains of Kur- distan a big carst cavern. Layers on the floor (by carbon ana- lysis) show that a layers for 12-29000 years ago are absent. But older & newer ones remain. It may show that these layers are washed off by water. (Excavations lead by prof. Solecky showed that this cave called Shanidat was inhabited a whole 100000 years). Fragments of rock which falled in the 12000 la- yer show that then were eartquackes. (This information is borroved from a book "All about Atlantis" by V. Scherbakov, Moscow, 1990) W/best regards, Konstantin Zaitzev 2:5020/360.4 Fidonet Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 06:08:40 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 02:08:40 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Blavatsky, Beatles and Elvis Message-Id: <960729060839_74024.3352_BHT36-1@CompuServe.COM> Maybe theosophy cannot be all things to all people, like Frank suggest. I think many have called theosophy the Un-NewAge preferring to refer to it as the ancient wisdom at book publishing conventions etc. But this doesn't get at the core appeal of theosophy which remains a mysterious attractor to me still. In the American Theosophists it is noted that Elvis studied the Secret Doctrine among other works and called his last back-up group the "Voices" in honor of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE (oh dubious honor!). Maybe Elvis was the "King" and worthy of all the bakti devotion that he mysteriously inspired, we just really didn't get to see the real Elvis perhaps. The Black Velver Elvis paitings still leave me a little nauseus but I never saw the auric quality in the paintings of the Masters either, though they did have nice Hollywood-Svengali eyes. Show biz has always been a part of spirituality--if we only had a Krishnamurti-type that could sing rock ballads (?) The Beatles I think were more used than is commonly known by the Mahrishi, money grubbing drug producers, record producers and wall street types. They represented us as spiritual seekers. The four little young mini -Gutamas on a wild, big, rich holiday and the media let us participate vicariously in their spiritual and artistic experiments. When the party turned sour, there was nothing to do,but break up and then we got disco. Now there is a gold mine for spiritual analysis. The total spiritual bankruptcy and materialism of disco as a reaction to the Eastern mysticism and midly revolutionary politics of the Beatles. Pop music, Madonna notwithstanding, has never recovered its supposed spiritual basis that some of us ageing 60's types thought it one had during the Viet Nam war. . Is this why country music has become the "opiate" of choice for the masses. You know what you get when you play a country and western record backward, "I got my pickup back, I got my dog back and I got my baby back !) And while we are on music, does anybody really like Scriabin. There is another really moldy piece about him in the American Theosophist. Give me a movie like "2001" or even "Babe" anyday for theosophical inspired art. I say go John Algeo and don't stop! And Kandinsky-schminsky too. Namaste Keith Price From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 06:30:52 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 02:30:52 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Retro-Future of Theosophy Message-Id: <960729063051_74024.3352_BHT79-1@CompuServe.COM> A recent post on the future of theosophy: Aaaaaaaaaakjlkj.,e,.wm.,rm/////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////// Ann suggested that this really could be the future of theosophy! Keith: But Ann, it's SENZAR! You use eat a svabahva burger and your secret SENZAR decoding program with the 3-D glasses and it pops out like one of those Magic Eye pictures! Trust me, stranger things have been used for the basis of entire world religions! Like flying horses to heaven, you just have to have the symbolic transformation decoder ring and the key . . . I 've stayed up far to late!!! Nama///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Keith p?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From 72724.413@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 11:41:35 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 07:41:35 EDT From: Sy Ginsburg <72724.413@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement, Round 2 Message-Id: <960729114134_72724.413_FHP40-1@CompuServe.COM> James S. Youngkans writes, "I also heard of a meeting in Florida, whose entire membership might transfer based on the above (If they aren't members already). Sounds to me like the glove has been dropped, wouldn't you say?" If James is referring to The Theosophical Society in Miami & South Florida, I can tell you that the above is incorrect. However, there are those of us who are members of TS Miami & South Florida in addition to other theosophists from other locations who believe there is a serious problem. It is with profound concern that we have observed recent actions taken by officers of the Society on both International and National (in America) levels to restrict or expel members of national sections and lodges or branches thereof in an apparent effort to disallow what we believe are authorized and proper pursuits of Truth and the declared Objects of the Society. A group of us have arranged a meeting over a weekend on Saturday, Oct. 5, 1996, to discuss this problem further, to reaffirm our unreserved and enthusiastic sympathy with the declared Objects of the Theosophical Society, and to pledge our mutual friendship and assistance. This meeting at a central location in the United States (St. Louis), is open to all theosophists and theosophical organizations. If you would like an invitation and information, please E-mail or otherwise send to me your name and mailing address, and I will forward this information to you. We can serve as a nucleus to protect and defend the declared Objects, and to make certain that our voices are heard throughout the theosophical movement. But for this to happen, those of us who care must be willing to make effort. Sincerely Sy Ginsburg, Director at Large The Theosophical Society in Miami & South Florida 340 Sunset Drive, #1811 Fort Lauderdale, FL . 33301 Tel: 954-463-8900 Fax: 954-463-8989 Email: 72724,413@compuserve.com From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 12:14:54 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 08:14:54 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Full Moon (to Keith) Message-Id: <960729121454_72723.2375_FHP50-2@CompuServe.COM> Keith: >And while we are on impurity, did anyone attending summer school hear that >computers are being pushed by the Kern people, leading to Olcott and possibly >Adyar invaded by the impurity of the organs of cyber-space, against the will of >some our leader possibly. Maybe the 'impurity" will create a ferilization and >release from the sterility of the past. While I was not in summer school this year, for various reasons, this is the story I remember from last year. I was told Dorothy Abbenhouse hated computers so much that she banned them from Olcott. When John Algeo took office as president, they began to pop up everywhere in that wonderful old building. I believe many are custom-made by someone that works at Olcott because it is cheaper to build them from components rather than buy them off the shelf. How do I know this? My husband has built four so far. The library is in the process of moving from the card catalog system to having all the titles stored in a computer database, but typing all those titles is slow and there is a staffing problem right now. Anyone have anything to add to this? -Ann E. Bermingham From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 29 14:14:23 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 10:14:23 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607291414.KAA01880@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: The Uncola In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960729000502.00699258@mail.imagiware.com>; from "Eldon B. Tucker" at Jul 28, 96 1:15 pm According to Eldon B. Tucker: > > The only problem is when a T.S. fills up with people with no interest in > esotericism, but are rather inclined to reject it as "pompous elitism", and > under the freedom of belief in a T.S. advocate an "anything goes" style of > belief. Then Theosophy, as a body of occult doctrines and specific spiritual > practices ends up going underground in the very organizations that were > founded to promote it. "The only problem" huh? Eldon, this is an extreme example of what I was talking about a couple of weeks ago: the tendency of you "true believer" types to concentrate *all* the blame for *everything* wrong with the movement on those *you* consider "lukewarm" and deserving of repetitious condemnation. You don't come right out and say it, but you might as well: "Thank God I am not like other people; if everyone were like me there would be *no problems* in the Theosophical movement." If you can't get over that attitude, can you at least stop expressing it so shamelessly? It's a very untheosophical attitude. Your words reek with contempt for your fellow Theosophists. No interest in esotericism? Get real! Just no interest in the version thereof propagated by the ES and its various formal and informal heirs. Everyone I know in any TS is strongly interested in esotericism! The majority are not at all interested in *dogmatism* and *elitism* both of which keep getting crammed down our throats by the true believers that control everything in the movement. Forced to go underground in every organization? That's absolutely preposterous. Show me a single instance in which either the ULT or the Pasadena TS has forced members focused on "core" doctrines and practices to go underground. Show me a single instance in which the Adyar TS has deviated in recent years from the path of steadily increasing insistence on the authority of the core doctrines, and steadily increasing pressure to expel or make unwelcome those who do not agree with that tendency. Geez! You guys are in total, absolute control of every Theosophical organization. Your view is the only one allowed in any of the periodicals, at least in the US. (The Quest has many non-Theosophical articles, but *never* any that question or reevaluate anything considered fundamental by the TSA fundamentalists.) No one outside your circle of ultraorthodox Theosophists has any real influence on anything in the movement, and yet you *still* persist in blaming the insufficiently-orthodox for the *only* problem in the movement-- which is their very existence. > > But what if the coke and pepsi drinkers outnumber those for the sevenup in > the T.S.? > Make them feel totally unwelcome by constantly harping on how superior you are to them! That should solve the problem eventually. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 29 14:31:27 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 10:31:27 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607291431.KAA06220@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. In-Reply-To: <199607281319.IAA28366@main.com>; from "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" at Jul 28, 96 9:28 am According to Paul M.M. Kieniewicz: > > > you've no way of telling if it's all BS. But the stuff that can be checked > should be checked. And the consequences of the checking should be publicized in TS journals and their implications discussed openly. Dream on! > > To me, it all smacks of a coverup of sorts. Theosophists have a tendency > when faced with such a discrepancy either to edit the discrepancy out of > future editions, or explain them away with statements such as: "Atlantis is > only a myth", "The Masters weren't being literal", "This is an occult truth > and not a physical one." Or "You, Paul K., have the wrong background and > can't be a useful judge of these weighty matters..." Gee, that last one sounds familar except for the placement of the K.! There appears to be a total lack of interest in any real, open engagement with the teachings as a body of doctrine subject to analysis, comparison, etc. This movement is intellectually dying if not dead. > > These are to my mind all attempts to evade the fact that we are unwilling > to put Theosophy to the test, and when we are faced with discrepancies - > we are unwilling to admit that these exist. Because IF - Atlantis never had > any physical (not to mention etheric or other) existence, the basic > teachings DO fall down like a house of cards. That depends on what you mean by "basic teachings." Neither the three objects, nor the three fundamental propositions of the SD, nor the mystical insights of the Voice, nor anything else that attracted me to Theosophy in the first place, is falling down like a house of cards because of the misinformation about history and science in the literature. If one were to search for a spiritual movement with teachings that were not contradicted by contemporary science, I don't think it could be found. What's crucial is the willingness to engage in dialogue with new discoveries, synthesize them, modify our flawed beliefs accordingly. That's precisely what HPB wanted the TS to exemplify. But it turned out considerably worse in that regard, more inflexible in its "scriptural" literalism, than the mainstream Christians HPB criticized so much. If the few statements that can > be checked in the teaching turn out to be wrong, then the ones that can't be > checked are probably just as wrong. Non sequitur. > > How about "There is no religion higher than truth"? "Theosophy is not a religion, it is truth itself. So this is about those *other* people who don't have truth but only religion, and has no application at all to *us* who are privy to direct messages from Those Who Know." That's basically the mindset, I'm afraid. From uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Mon Jul 29 14:28:11 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:28:11 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Message-Id: <199607291435.AA14430@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: A House of Cards? (Reply to Paul K.) Paul K: The basic approach that you seem to be taking is based upon the rule that the simplest explanation is generally the best, as illustrated by the story of ocam's razor. From the standpoint of a westerner, brought up in a certain culture and educated a certain way about the nature of the world and how life works, the simplest explanation would be the one that fits in the most easily with what you already know and believe. What is simplest, though, is not always true. The simplest, most direct explanation as to why someone acts differently than a Fundamentalist Christian thinks proper might be "the devil made him do it." To the Fundamentalist, that is the application of his ocam's razor. But it is false. When someone reviews the theosophical literature, and finds references to science, and they appear obviously wrong, the simplest explanation *to him* might be that the whole thing was made up. That may satisfy him, but again I'd say it was not the truth. How does one tell if there's something to be found in the theosophical literature, in the various metaphysical doctrines that are expounded? One way is an innate deja vu, a recognition and inner accord with what is taught. There's a sense that one has known these things before, and that they have the ring of truth to them. A second approach is through a study of various religious and philosophical traditions of the world. Does Theosophy offer a key that unlocks their meanings? Does it reveal a common thread of thought behind the many approaches? Blavatsky makes a case for this in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The theosophical materials are consistent with or have ties with other great traditions. When I pick up a book by Kalu Rinpoche, I find materials that are in perfect accord, for instance, with what I might find in Theosophy. I could also read something by Manly Hall, talking about the Mysteries, and hear of the same thread of teachings, this time from someone without any organization seeking followers. Yet a third approach comes from "living the life". It comes from inner changes that result from treading the spiritual Path. One grows in both experience, knowledge, and ability to perceive life, and the teachings grow on one, they both aid one in understanding life as well as help put into words what one is experiencing. The theosophical literature is not based upon scientific pronouncements, and does not need to distance itself from them. The reason, I think, certain writers need to have their material reviewed, and subject to revision, is based upon how they arrived at what they said. Leadbeater, in his books like "The Inner Life", was giving materials arrived at by psychical investigation, which is highly unreliable. This is different than Blavatsky's materials, which were arrived at by study, training, and intellectual means. In one case, someone is writing down as scientific fact whatever they perceive from out-of-the-body experiences. In the other case, someone is passing on knowledge from a mahatmic Wisdom Tradition. I also like the motto "There is no religion higher than truth". It was, I recall, the motto of the Maharajah of Benares, and adopted by the T.S. I don't think, though, that the first person to invoke the motto has the upper hand on reality, truth, and insight into life. You mention a few highly judgemental terms like "cover up". This term, for instance, implies the hiding of something, with perhaps some element of wrong doing. I don't think the term is appropriate. Perhaps there is some element of it with regard to Leadbeater's writings, where his attempts to use psychical abilities to advance science have since been shown to have been off the mark. But not with regard to what Theosophy is about, its real core, its essential meaning: the philosophy, worldview, and status as a genuine path to the Mysteries. There is no evasion, no unwillingness to put Theosophy to the test. But the test *is not* a scientific report card. The test is something that can take years, or even lifetimes. It is in undertaking the study and living the life. You might say that since this is not readily apparent, and it is not provable in your life and in the lives of your coworkers, that it is untrue. You're entitled to that view, and in a free marketplace of ideas, I'm equally entitled to my dissenting view. If you had no education in mathematics, and were shown a complex mathematical proof, covering a half-dozen pages, and knew no geometry, trigonometry, calculus, etc., you might be inclined to dismiss the whole thing. If the only verifiable bits of the proof you could relate true were obviously untrue to you, it might be possible that you'd dismiss the whole thing. In this case, you'd have a situation where the person of average education would not be able to verify the proof, but would have to reserve judgment, and defer to the opinion of those recognized to be knowledgable in the field. In the field of spiritual development, dealing with the hidden side of life and the Mahatmas, the most advanced of humanity, we have a similar situation. It is very possible, and in accord with the idea that truth comes before all religions, that any of us, with regard to certain occult truths, "have the wrong background and can't be a useful judge of these weighty matters." That is, there *are* things in life that we do not have the background to comprehend, but have to defer to the views of experts, *until we acquire the necessary background ourselves*, and see for ourselves the truth of the matter. This is true for all of us, in many fields of study and in many areas of experience. I'd have to defer, for instance, to what a chemist says about chemistry, having no formal training in that area. Theosophy won't collapse like a house of cards, as someone finds a few references to science to discredit. It may sway the interest of a few borderline seekers, people without a strong draw to the philosophy, but apart from that, I see little happening. The biggest draw is to those with an inner recognition, an attraction that does not care how sloppily a book is written or how highly it is disfavored by public opinion. The draw is the inner evolutionary urge, the urge to move beyond the present human condition. This is something that no amount of words will "prove" nor evoke in someone. Each of us is responsible to create our own necessary state of "inner ripeness" for this, to make ourselves fertile to the germination of the spiritual. In the eyes of some, Theosophy is a priori proven false, and no amount of philosophical discourse will change things. In the eyes of others, Theosophy is a (non-exclusive) source of an inner Wisdom of life that is precious, priceless, beyond compare. Either might claim that "truth" is on their side. The latter, those finding a connection to the Wisdom Tradition, have a obviously greater benefit. Is their benefit real? Is what they study based upon the actual way that life works? I'd agree with them. But each of us has to make his own way through life, and that includes doing, studying, and being those things that appeal to them. If Theosophy seems nonsensical and simply confuses things, the best advice for the person seeing it that way is: stay away, forget this stuff, don't return until or unless your heart tells you that something is being missed. On the other hand, if it seems to be a wide open doorway, leading to a whole new world of experience, I'd say: don't hesitate, jump in and do it! -- Eldon From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 29 15:44:49 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 11:44:49 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607291544.LAA25580@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: A House of Cards? (Reply to Paul K.) In-Reply-To: <199607291435.AA14430@vnet.net>; from "uscap9m9@ibmmail.com" at Jul 29, 96 10:39 am According to uscap9m9@ibmmail.com: > > How does one tell if there's something to be found in the > theosophical literature, in the various metaphysical doctrines > that are expounded? One way is an innate deja vu, a recognition > and inner accord with what is taught. There's a sense that one > has known these things before, and that they have the ring of > truth to them. > So far, so good. I know precisely what you mean, experienced it intensely, dreamed about the SD while reading it for the first time, and so on. We're talking intuitive recognition here. But what if things have the "ring of truth" not because they are true but because they are familiar falsehoods? If I was a Mormon in my last life, perhaps golden plates and Moroni will set off my "deja vu" "ring of truth" in this one. Doesn't make it a bit more true. > A second approach is through a study of various religious and > philosophical traditions of the world. Does Theosophy offer a > key that unlocks their meanings? Does it reveal a common thread > of thought behind the many approaches? Blavatsky makes a case for > this in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The theosophical materials are > consistent with or have ties with other great traditions. Yes and no. Consistent with AND inconsistent with, depending on the writer, the book, and the tradition in question. This criterion definitely cuts both ways. If you were to poll 100 scholars of religion who happened to be somewhat familiar with HPB, as to how accurately she described the traditions from which she drew, I don't think the majority would give her high marks. (However, she knew as much or more than experts of her time, so it isn't fair to compare her to contemporary experts UNLESS you assert that her sources of information were superior thereto-- as you do.) > at what they said. Leadbeater, in his books like "The Inner > Life", was giving materials arrived at by psychical > investigation, which is highly unreliable. > Then own up to that rather than pretend the problem doesn't exist by careful censorship of the embarrassing parts. > This is different than Blavatsky's materials, which were arrived > at by study, training, and intellectual means. Exclusive of psychical investigation? In one case, > someone is writing down as scientific fact whatever they perceive > from out-of-the-body experiences. In the other case, someone is > passing on knowledge from a mahatmic Wisdom Tradition. It's hardly so clear-cut. Leadbeater's clairvoyance operated within the general framework of Theosophical ideas, despite all his variations and alterations thereof. And your description of HPB's teachings as "knowledge" simply begs the question Paul K. is raising. Is it really knowledge? Were her sources really "Mahatmic" and were they all adherents of a single "wisdom-tradition"? Just what do those terms mean anyway? Those are questions she *wanted us to ponder and explore* not heresies that should not even be expressed in Theosophical discourse. > > You mention a few highly judgemental terms like "cover up". This > term, for instance, implies the hiding of something, with perhaps > some element of wrong doing. I don't think the term is > appropriate. > I can't think of anything more appropriate. Posthumous editing in order to make someone appear less fallible than he was is hiding something, and is wrong-doing. > There is no evasion, no unwillingness to put Theosophy to the > test. But the test *is not* a scientific report card. The test > is something that can take years, or even lifetimes. It is in > undertaking the study and living the life. So, *the* test is this multi-lifetime evaluation based on applying the teachings before you have confirmed their reliability by intellectual analysis? There is systemic, rigid refusal to put Theosophy to the test intellectually in the sense that Paul K. means. You are exemplifying this refusal by denying that the test he describes has any legitimacy. > > You might say that since this is not readily apparent, and it is > not provable in your life and in the lives of your coworkers, > that it is untrue. You're entitled to that view, and in a free > marketplace of ideas, I'm equally entitled to my dissenting view. > But you are not entitled to tell people who don't share it that they don't belong in the movement. > > Theosophy won't collapse like a house of cards, as someone finds > a few references to science to discredit. It may sway the > interest of a few borderline seekers, people without a strong > draw to the philosophy, but apart from that, I see little > happening. Agreed. But it's not a few references, but many, that are problematic. And you keep describing people as "borderline" as if you are confident that you are making an *objective assessment*. Au contraire, when you and others of like mind dismiss some Theosophists as "borderline" you are making a *subjective assessment* based on *borders of your own definition* that unfortunately becomes *self-fulfilling prophecy.* > > If Theosophy seems nonsensical and simply confuses things, the > best advice for the person seeing it that way is: stay away, > forget this stuff, don't return until or unless your heart tells > you that something is being missed. On the other hand, if it > seems to be a wide open doorway, leading to a whole new world of > experience, I'd say: don't hesitate, jump in and do it! And if you have a strong intuitive sense that Theosophy is an open doorway to a new realm of experience AND that much of it is nonsensical and confusing, then what? Jump in and have Theosophists attack you for lack of firmness in your faith? Stay away and lose the opportunity to learn and share with others of like interests? Not much of a choice. From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 29 16:13:29 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: TS yoga In-Reply-To: <199607290558.AA22773@angel.elektra.ru> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Macnev Uri wrote: > ========================= > * Forwarded by Macnev Uri > * From : Kay Ziatz > ========================= > Does Arcane School have WWW server? I'm interesting in Bailey > Books in files. I haven't read "TCF" (most other AAB books are > available in Russian). Arcane School is way behind the information revolution: no WWW site, even no e-mail. I am not aware of any AAB books in electronic format. > M> 1. Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga. It is essentially identical with > M> theosophy. > But Aurobindo regarded theosophy as false teaching. It does not matter what was Sri Aurobindo's personal opinion about theosophy. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 29 16:24:21 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:24:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: TS Yoga/Sri Aurobindo Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I post a complete text of Sri Aurobindo's small book (lecture notes?) entitled "Yogic Sadhan." It offers an interesting perspective on modern yoga as governed by two main principles: mental control of subtle energies, and use of the will in spiritual development. Max From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 29 16:39:19 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Yogic Sadhan 1/3 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII YOGIC SADHAN--Part 1/3 ------------------------------------------------------------- The text perhaps is rather rare. I believe it was never copyrighted and never reprinted after the WWII. The text is preceded by an OCLC record that shows the book IS available in at least two major university libraries in this country -- Chicago and Harvard. Here are the editorial techniques used in this posting: 1. What's offered below is an unaltered and unabridged text of the book. No attempt is made to make the terminology used uniform, to improve it, to make it more familiar, etc. All Sanskrit terms used are explained in the Glossary at the end of the text. 2. The only diacritics in the text are carets over long vowels in Sanskrit terms; in this publication these are placed before the vowels, e.g.: ^a, ^i. 3. Italicized phrases are placed between the asterisks, *......* 4. Page numbers of the original are indicated in square brackets, like this: [1]. Roman pagination in the Glossary at the end of the text is given in curles, like this: (iii); these are preserved, so that the added page numbers in this text file look like this: [(iii)]. 5. All comments and other additions to the text are also enclosed in square brackets, [.....]. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Relevant OCLC record: * * * * * * * * * * * * * Full Record Display * * * * * * * * * * * * DATABASE: WorldCat SEARCH: ti:yogic sadhan Record 1 of 1________________________________(Page 1 of 1) | |ACCESSION: 26390505 |AUTHOR: Ghose, Aurobindo, 1872-1950. |TITLE: Yogic sadhan |EDITION: [3d ed.] |PLACE: Calcutta |PUBLISHER: Arya Publishing House |YEAR: 1923 |PUB TYPE: Book |FORMAT: [2], 71 p. 18 cm. |SUBJECT: Yoga. * * * * * * * * * * * * Library Holdings Display * * * * * * * * * * _SYM___LIBRARY______________________OCLC_ILL_SUPPLIER?_ IL CGU UNIV OF CHICAGO Y MA HLS HARVARD UNIV Y ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [Front cover and back cover are missing from my photocopy] [Title page:] YOGIC SADHAN EDITED BY THE UTTARA YOGI [A small swastika with arms extended counterclockwise] ARYA PUBLISHING HOUSE [Reverse side of the title page: Publisher: Ratikanta Nag, Arya Publishing House, College St. Market, Calcutta. Fourth Impression January, 1933. Printer: P. C. Ray, SRI GOURANGA PRESS, 71/1, Mirzapur St., Calcutta. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ YOGIC SADHAN ========== AUM I The proper course of the Sadhan is just the opposite of the thing most people do and you have also done. People begin with the body and the prana, go on to the chitta and the manas, and finish up with the buddhi and the will. The real course is to start with the will and finish with the body. There is no need of Asana, [2] Pranayama, Kumbhaka, Chittasuddhi, or anything else preparatory or preliminary if one starts with the will. That was what Sri Ramakrishna came to show so far as Yoga is concerned. 'Do the Shakti Upasana first,' he said, 'get Shakti and she will give you Sat.' Will and Shakti are the first means necessary to the Yogin. That was why he said always, "Remember you are Brahman," and he gave that as a central message to Swami Vivekananda. You are Ishwara. If you choose, you can be suddha, siddha and everything else, or, if you choose, you can be just the opposite. The first necessity is to believe in yourself, the second in God and the third to believe in Kali; for these things make [3] up the world. Educate the Will first, through the Will educate the Jnanam, through the Jnanam purify the Chitta, control the Prana and calm the Manas. Through all these instruments immortalise the body. That is the real yoga, the Mahapantha, that is the true and only Tantra. The Vedanta starts with Buddhi, the Tantra with Shakti. What the Will is you have heard. It is Shakti, it is not Vasana, it is not Cheshta. Vasana and Cheshta are the negation of will. If you have desire, that means you doubt the power of your Will. Brahman has no desire. He wills and all things happen according to his Will. If you have Cheshta, that means you doubt your Will. Only those who feel or think [4] they are not strong, struggle and labour to produce an effect. Brahman has no cheshta. He wills and His Will spontaneously produces its effect. But it produces it in time, space and causality. To demand a result now here and under given conditions is Ajnanam. The time, space and causality of every event and its development have been fixed ages ago by yourself and Parameswara, when the Kalpa began. It is ignorance to struggle and try to alter what you have yourself decreed. Care not about time, space or conditions, but will, and leave the result to God who is your omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient self. You are the individual God and He is the universal God. Nothing but God exists--Ekam [5] ekadwitiyam. Therefore Will implies Samata, absence of Vasana and Cheshta. Absence of Vasana and Cheshta implies knowledge. Until you have knowledge, you can never be safe against the return of Vasana and Cheshta. The question is how to start. The Shakti is in you. Let her work and assist her by taking the right attitude. You are the Sakshi, Anumanta, Bhokta, and Bharta. As Anumanta, give the command, as Sakshi watch her work out the result, as Bhokta enjoy the result and as Bharta help her by maintaining the Adhar. Do not ruin it by tamasic udasinata or rajasic revolt. Be sure your Will can never fail to act. You are the Jnata: receive all knowledge that presents [6] itself to you. Adopt the attitude I have described here and apply it to every individual act of the sadhana or of life. You have nothing else to do. Kali will do the rest. Be not troubled, be not anxious, be not in haste, you have all eternity before you, why be in haste? Only do not be tamasic or idly waste your time. II I shall speak to-day of the Shakti or Will, since that is the foundation of Yoga. The Shakti is situated in the Sahasradala just above the crown of the head and from that seat of activity it works. Below it at the top of the brain is the higher Buddhi and below that, occupying the middle [7] level of the brain, is the reason or lower buddhi, and below that, at the bottom of the brain, is the organ of communication with the Manas. We may call this organ the understanding. Knowledge, reason and understanding are the three parts of the brain. These functions are in the subtle body, but they are connected with the corresponding portions of the material brain. In the chest just above the heart is the Manas, that is the organ of sensation with its five subordinate Indriyas. Below the Manas, from the heart to midway between the heart and the navel, is the Chitta. From that point up to the navel and below it is the psychic or sukshma prana. All these are in the sukshma deha but connected [8] at these points with the sthula deha. In the sthula deha itself two functions are situated, the physical prana or the nervous system and the annam or the material body. Now the will is the organ of the Ishwara or living master of the body. It works through all these functions, through the Buddhi for thought and knowledge, through the Manas for sensations, through the Chitta for emotions and through the Prana for enjoyment. When it functions perfectly, working in each organ according to the capacities of the organ, then the work of the Shakti becomec perfect and infallible. But there are two causes of weakness, error and failure. First, the confusion of the organs. If the Prana interferes in [9] sensation, emotion and thought, then a man becomes anisha, the slave of the Prana, that is to say, of the desires. If the Chitta interferes with sensation and thought, then the sensations and thoughts are falsified by the emotions and their corresponding wishes. For instance if love interferes with the Buddhi, the man becomes blind to the truth about the person he loves, he is unable to distinguish between right and wrong, kartavya and akartavya, where the person is concerned. He becomes to a greater or lesser extent the slave of the emotions, love, anger, hatred, pity, revenge &c. So, if the Manas interferes with the reason, the man mistakes his sensations for just ideas or true arguments. He judges by [10] what he sees or hears instead of judging what he sees or hears. If again the reason, imagination, memory and logic interfere with knowledge, the man is debarred from higher knowledge and wanders in the interminable circle of probabilities and possibilities. Finally, if even the Buddhi interferes with the Will, then the man is limited by the power of his limited knowledge, instead of moving nearer to Omnipotence. In brief, if a machine or instrument is used for a work for which it is unfit, for which it was not made or originally adapted, then it either cannot do that work at all or it does it badly; *dharma-sankara is created*. Now what I have described is the ordinary state of men before they gain knowledge. It is all dharma-[11]sankara, confusion of functions, bad administration and incompetent and ignorant government. The Will, the true minister, is rendered a puppet of the lower officials who work each for his own selfish ends, interfering with and hampering each other or dishonestly playing into each other's hands, for their own benefit and to the detriment of the Ishwara, the master. He ceases to be Ishwara, he becomes Anisha, the puppet and dupe of his servants. Why does he allow it? Because of Ajnanam. He does not know, he does not realise what the ministers and officials and their million and one hangers-on are doing with him. What is this Ajnanam? It is inability to recognise his own true nature, position [12] and authority. He began by being deeply interested in a small portion of his royal activity, the body. He thought "That is my kingdom." He became the tool of his bodily functions. So with the nervous, the sensational, the emotional and the mental, he identifies himself with each of them. He forgets that he is different from them and much greater and stronger. What he must do is to resume the reins of power, to remember that he is Ishwara, the king, the master and God himself. He must on this understanding remember that he is all-powerful. He has a mighty minister, the Will. Let him support and direct the Will and the Will will introduce order into the government and compel the officials each to do [13] obediently and perfectly his own duty. Not of course all at once. It will take time. The officials have become so much used to confused work and misgovernment that at first they will not be willing to work properly and, secondly, even when they wish, they will find it difficult. They hardly know even how to begin. For instance, when you begin to use your will, what is likely to happen? First you will try to use it through the Prana, through desire, wish, hope, or you will use it through the Chitta, with emotion, eagerness and expectation, or you will use it through the Manas using Cheshta, struggle, effort, as if you were physically wrestling with the thing you want to control; or you will use it through the Buddhi, trying to [14] dominate the subject of your interest by thought, by thinking "Let this be", "Let that happen" etc. All these methods are used by Yogins to recover the power of the Will. The Hatha-yogin uses the Prana and the body, the Raja-yogin the heart, Manas and Buddhi, but the best method is none of these. Even the last of them is a second-best means and must entail struggle, failure and frequent disappointment. The Will is only perfect in its action when it works apart from all these, straight on the subject from the sahasradala, without effort, without emotion and eagerness and without desire. *Each function to itself and Will is its own function*. It always obeys the Ishwara but it acts [15] in itself and by itself. It uses the rest, it must not be used by them. It uses the Buddhi for knowledge, not for command; it uses the Manas for sensation, not for either command or knowledge; it uses the heart for emotion, not for sensation, knowledge or command; it uses the Prana for enjoyment, not for any other function; it uses the body for motion and action, not as a thing that can limit or determine either knowledge, feeling, sensation, power or enjoyment. Therefore it must keep itself apart and command all these things as a thing separate from all of them. These are merely a yantra, a machine, the Purusha is the yantri or master of the machine, the Will is the electricity or motor-power. [16] This is the right knowledge. How to use it I shall tell you afterwards. That is a matter of practice, not of mere instruction. The man who has dhairyam, calm steadfastness, even in a small degree, can gradually accustom himself to the mastery of his machine by the Will. But he must first know: he must know the machine, he must know the motor-power, he must know himself. The knowledge need not be perfect in order to begin, but the elementary knowledge at least he must have. That is what I am trying to give you. I am explaining to you the different parts of the machine, their nature and functions, the nature of the Will and the nature of the Ishwara. [17] III The Will when it begins to act, will be hampered by the Swabhava; therefore until you are able to act on the Swabhava, you will not, should not bring your Will to bear upon life. In other words while you are a sadhak of the Shakti marga, be a sadhak only; when you have got Siddhi of the Will, then first use the Siddhi to get perfection of the adhar, and when you have got perfection of the adhar, then use the siddha adhar for Karma, for life. The Swabhava opposes the perfect action of the Will. Why? Because the nature of humanity is imperfect, only partly evolved, asiddha, and being in all its dharmas asiddha, the [18] tamasic force of habit, tamasi dhriti, makes it resist any attempt to make it siddha. Humanity is evolving. Yoga is a means of carrying that evolution forward with great and victorious rapidity. But the imperfect Swabhava says, "I do not wish to be perfect, I am accustomed to imperfection and find it easy and comfortable." First, then, the Will seizes hold of the Swabhava and removes the obstacles in the way of its own perfect development and action. As I have said, it first gets rid of the old samskaras of impossibility, the samskara, the ajnanam that I am man, not God, limited, not illimitable, helpless, not omnipotent. The Will has first to say, "I am omnipotent, that which the Purusha commands, [19] I can act". For the Will is the Shakti in action, and there is only one Shakti, Kali herself, who is God manifesting as Divine Energy. Next the Will seizes the adhar and makes it shuddha in order that the Will may itself be shuddha. I have explained that if there is confusion and disorder among the functions, then the Will cannot act omnipotently. Therefore you must first develop Jnanam and by Jnanam effect the shuddhi of the adhar. When the adhar becomes shuddha, the Will being entirely free from wrong samskaras and wrong action, is what I call shuddha. It works perfectly. Working perfectly it makes the adhar siddha, that is the adhar rids itself of all doshas, deficiencies and weak[20]nesses and works perfectly. It becomes a perfect instrument for the Purushottama, the Purusha and Shakti to carry on their Lila. Knowledge, therefore, Jnanam is the next stage to be considered. But before I come to that, let me finish about the obstacles in the Swabhava. There are not only the wrong Samskaras and the ashuddhi of the adhar, but the general nature of things has certain tendencies or laws in it which oppose the development of the Yoga as well as certain tendencies which help the development of the Yoga. There are three laws which oppose-- the law of persistence, the law of resistance and the law of recurrence: there are three laws which assist--the law of gradual processes, [21] the law of concentrated processes and the law of involved processes. The law of persistence is this, that a rule, habit or tendency once established has a right to survive, a natural unwillingness to be changed or annulled. The longer it has been established, the longer it takes to root out. If a man has been yielding to the shad ripus for many lives without any serious effort to dominate them or purify himself, then he cannot by mere wish or a mere rapid effort get rid of them and become pure and calm. They refuse to be so cavalierly treated. They say "You have given us rights in this adhar, and we persist." Still more hard to deal with are those dharmas of the body which men call the laws of physical nature. [22] But the Will is omnipotent and if patiently, calmly and heroically exercised, will prevail. For the Will, I repeat, is--Kali herself. Therefore in the end it establishes by its actions new rules, habits or tendencies which fight with and gradually overcome the old. What then happens is that the old, though put down, weakened and no loner [longer?] a real part of the nature, resist eviction from the adhar. They are supported by an army of forces or spiritual beings who surround you and live upon your experiences and enjoyments. This law of resistance marks the second period of the Yoga and, unless the Will has already become siddha and the adhar shuddha, is very trying and troublesome to the sadhak. For there seems [23] to be no end to the capacity of resistance. Here again the Will is bound to triumph, if it is supported by faith or knowledge. Even then the evicted habits and tendencies strive continually to re-enter the system and recover their lost seats of power and enjoyment. This is called recurrence. In proportion as the Will is siddha and the Adhar shuddha, the recurrence becomes weaker and less frequent or, when it comes, less prolonged. But in an impure adhar, or with an imperfect Will, the recurrence is often as prolonged and troublesome as the resistance. On the other hand there are the three favourable laws. When a new habit or tendency is once established, [24] it is the law that it shall develop towards strength and perfection. So long as it is struggling to establish itself, the Yogin may at any time become bhrashta, that is he may from error, weakness or impatience give up the struggle. That is the only fall for the Yogin. Failure, temporary defeat, is not bhramsa, so long as he refuses to give up the struggle. But once the right tendency is established, no man can destroy it, until it has enjoyed supremacy and its bhoga. Still at first, while the Will is comparatively weak or unpractised, the progress must be slow. In proportion as the perfection of the Will brings purity of the Adhar, the progress becomes rapid. Everything in this world is done by a process; a [25] process means a series of actions leading to a particular result by certain recognised stages. These stages may be passed through slowly or swiftly, but so long as the law of gradual processes obtains, all the stages must be successively and consciously passed through. You have so many milestones to pass; but you may pass them walking, in a carriage, in a railway train, but pass them you must. Still by the growing strength of the Will, you can replace slow process by swift process. Then a time comes when Kali begins to transcend the ordinary human limits and becomes no longer the Shakti of a man, but the Shakti of God in man. It is then that gradual processes are replaced by con[26]centrated processes. It is as if, instead of travelling from milestone to milestone you could leap from the first milestone to the third and so on to your journey's end. In other words the process remains the same but some of the stages seem to be dispensed with. In reality they are passed over so lightly as to escape notice and occupy little time. Therefore it is called a concentrated or contracted process. Lastly, when the man himself becomes God, either in a part of his actions or in the whole, then the law of concentrated processes gives place to the involved processes, when no process at all seems to be used, when the result follows the action instantaneously, inevitably and miraculously. [27] In reality there is no miracle, the process is used but so rapidly, with such a sovereign ease, that all the stages become involved or hidden in what seems a moment's action. To most men it is enough, if they can reach the second stage; it is only the Avatar or the great Vibhuti who can reach the third. Therefore do not be discouraged by any failure or delaay. It is purely a question of force and purity of the Will. By purity I mean freedom from desire, from effort, from misplacement. It is best to begin by concentrating effort on the self-purification of the Will, towards which the first necessity is passivity of desire for the fruit, the second the passivity of the Chitta and the Buddhi, while the will is being [28] applied; the third the development of self-knowledge in the use of the Will. It will be found that by this process of educating the Will, *^atm^anam ^atman^a*, purity of the adhar will also be automatically prepared and knowledge will begin to develop and act. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 16:42:41 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 12:42:41 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Uncola Message-Id: <960729164241_73632.105_FHV101-1@CompuServe.COM> Frank wrote re wicca, tarot, etc. (lower forms of occultism): >Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be valuable in imparting >a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. But they cannnot substitute for >the deeper teachings. It has nothing to do with brotherhood. It is simply a fact. Ann replied: >It may be a fact that a person has two noses, but it would not be kind >or >compassionate >to point it out. >- Ann E. Bermingham If someone interested in tarot, channeling, etc. asks us about Theosophy or the TS, I would certainly not advocate telling that person that their present interests are inappropriate. But I would clearly state that Theosophy requires effort, persistence, and some background if the seeker is to get anything out of it. I would add that the effort is very amply rewarded, although the process is not an easy one. I think that it would be less than compassionate to give a sincere seeker the impression that the more pop culture, mechanical methods purporting to further development can be equated with Theosophy. If we want to attract to the movement persons who are capable of assimilating these teachings, then we should not shy away from characterizing them accurately. What we now have in effect is the operation of Gresham's Law: debased coinage drives good coinage out of circulation. There is so much junk out there claiming the attention of seekers that the good stuff is gettng drowned out. OTOH, not everybody can appreciate the good stuff; so let's gear our efforts to those who can. I would much rather be accused of arrogance than naivete. --Frank From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 29 16:45:37 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Yogic Sadhan 2/3 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII YOGIC SADHAN--Part 2/3 ---------------------------------------------------------------- IV What is knowledge? In what does it consist? We must distinguish between knowledge in itself and the means of knowledge. Again, among the means we must distinguish between the instruments and the operations performed with the instruments. By Knowledge we mean awareness, taking a thing into active [29] consciousness, into our Chaitanyam. But when we say, taking it into our Chaitanyam, what do we imply? Whence do we take it? The European says from outside, we say from inside, from Chaitanyam itself. In other words, all knowledge is an act of consciousness operating on something in the consciousness itself. In the first place everything we know exists in Parabrahman, that is, in our indivisible, universal` self-existence. It is there, but not yet expressed, not vyakta. Then it exists in pure Chit, which is the womb of things as an idea of form, name and quality. It has name, form and quality in the Karana or Mahat, the causal, typal and ideal state of consciousness. Then it gets the possibility of change, [30] development or modification in the Sukshma, the subtle, mental or plastic state of consciousness. Finally it gets the actual change, development, modification or evolution in the Sthula, the material of evolutionary state of consciousness. In the Karana there is no evolution, nothing ever changes, all is eternal. The Karana is Satyam. In the Sukshma all is preparation of change; it is full of imagination or anritam, therefore it is Swapna, not really false, but not immediately applicable to the Karana or Sthula. In the Sthula all evolves. It is partial satyam developing by the turning of old satyam into anritam, which is called destruction, and the turning of new anritam into new satyam, which is called creation. In the Karana there [31] is no creation, no birth, no death, all exists for ever--the only change is from type to type, from fulfilment to fulfilment. Therefore to know is really to be conscious of the thing in any or all of these three states. The knowledge of the Sthula is science. The knowledge of the Sukshma is philosophy, religion and metaphysics. The knowledge of the Karan is Yoga. When a man knows the Sthula, he knows it with his senses, that is, with the Manas, he knows the Sukshma with reason or the inspired intellect, he knows the Karana with the Jnanam or spiritual realisation. Therefore complete knowledge consists of three operations, first, objective Upalabdhi or experience, secondly, intellectual [32] statement of your understanding of the thing, thirdly, subjective Upalabdhi or spiritual experience. The scientist begins from the bottom and climbs if he can, to the top. The Yogin begins from the top and descends for perfect proof to the bottom. You are not scientists, you are sadhakas. Therefore, when you speak of knowledge you must understand the process; you realise a thing by subjective experience, Bhava, then, think about it and formulate your experience in Artha and Vak, the combination which forms thought; you verify or test your experience by physical or objective experience. For instance you see a man. You want to know what he is, what he thinks and what he does. How does [33] the scientist or the material man do it? He watches the man, he notes what he says, what are his expressions of speech and face, what are his actions, what sort of people he lives with etc. All this is objective. Then he reasons from his objective experience. He says "The man says this or that, so he must think so and so or he must have such and such a character; his actions show the same, his face shows the same," and so he goes on reasoning. If he does not get all the necessary facts, he fills them up from his imagination or from his memory, that is his experience of other men, of himself or of human life as read of in books or heard of from other people. He perceives, he observes, contrasts, [34] compares, deduces, infers, imagines, remembers and the composite result he calls reason, knowledge, fact. In reality he has arrived at a probability, for it is impossible for him to be sure that his conclusions are correct or anything indeeed correct in his thought, except the actual observation, perceptions of his eye, ear, nose, touch, and taste. Anything beyond this the material man distrusts. Nothing is true to him except what he observes with his senses or what agrees with his sensory perceptions. Now what does the Yogin do? He simply puts himself into relation with the thing itself. Not with its form, name or quality, but with itself. He may never have seen the form, heard the name or had experience of [35] the quality, but still he can know the thing. Because it is the thing itself and it is in himself and one with himself, that is in the Mahakarana in a man. There all meet the Atman and are so entirely one with the Atman that by merely being in contact with it, I can know everything about it. Few Yogins reach that state. But all the same, even in the Karana I can put myself in relation with the thing and know it by Bhava. I put myself, my soul, into relation with the soul of the man I study or the thing I study; Prajna in me becomes one with the Prajna in him or it. How do I do this? Simply by becoming passive and facing him or it in my Buddhi. If my Buddhi is quite pure or fairly purified, if my Manas is shanta, then [36] I get the truth about him. I get it by Bhava, by spiritual or subjective realisation. Then I have to make the thing I have got clear and precise. To do that I must state it intellectually to my mind, that is, I must think about it. I have these ideas I am telling you in myself as unexpressed knowledge; they shape themselves in words, Vak, and take on a precise meaning, Artha. That is thought. Most people think vaguely; half expressing the thing in an imperfect Vak and a partial Artha. The Yogin must not do that. His thoughts must express themselves in clear and perfect sentences. He may know a thing without thinking it out, but if he thinks, he must think clearly and perfectly. [37] The Yogin reasons when necessary, but not like the man of science. He sees the thing with his prophetic power interpreting the truth into thought; the pratyaksha gives him the Artha, the inspiration gives him the Vak, the intuition gives him the right conclusion about it, the right siddhanta, the Viveka guards him from error. Behold the truth by these four simple operations perfectly thought out. If he has to argue, then the intuitions give him the right arguments. He had not to proceed painfully from one syllogism to another as the logician does. Finally, he verifies his knowledge by the facts of the objective world. He has seen the truth about the man by merely looking at him or at the [38] idea of him; he has thought it out clearly and now he compares his idea with the man's actions, speech etc. Not to test his truth; for he knows that a man's action, speech etc. only partially express the man and mislead the student; but in order to see how the truth he knows from the Karana is being worked out in the Sthula. He trusts the man's objective life only so far as it is in agreement with the deeper truth he has gained by Yoga. You see the immense difference. The only difficulty is that you have been accustomed to use the senses and the reason to the subordination and almost to the exclusion of the higher faculties. Therefore you find it difficult to make the higher faculties active. [39] If only you could start from the beginning, with the Bhava, the Atmajnana, how easy it would be! That will yet happen. But first, you have to get rid of the lower Buddhi, of the Indriyas in the manas, and awaken the activity of the higher faculties. They will see for you, hear for you, as well as think for you. First, then, get your sankaras right. Understand intellectually what I have told you and will yet tell you. Then by use of the Will, keep the reason, imagination, memory, thought, sensations sufficiently quiet for the higher Buddhi to know itself as separate and different from these lower qualities. As the higher separates itself and becomes more and more active, the lower, already dis[40]couraged, will become less and less active and finally trouble you no more. Therefore Will first, then by Will, by Shakti, the Jnanam. First Kali, then Surya. I shall explain the various faculties when I have finished with the rest of the system. V If men were satisfied with indulging in reason, memory and imagination, the purification of the Buddhi and the development of the higher faculties would be an easy matter. But there is another means of thought which they habitually indulge in and that is Manas. The Manas is a receptive organ; it receives the images expressed on the eye, the ear etc., [41] and turns them into what the Europeans call the percepts, that is, things perceived. Besides, it receives the ideas, images etc., sent down from the Vijnana into the Chitta and passes them on to the latter organ. In this passage these things become what are called concepts, that is, things conceived or thought of. For instance, when the mind sees the image of a book and says "A book," it has hold of a percept the name of which it conceives; that is sensational thought. When it says "A book contains language" that is a remoter concept, intellectual thought. One merely puts things sensed into words, the other puts things thought into words. Percept and concept together make what is called understanding. [42] Reason, according to the European idea, merely arranges percepts and concepts and draws from this arrangement fresh and more elaborate concepts. Many believe that concepts are merely percepts put together and converted into what is called thought. According to this idea, all thought is merely the arrangement of sensation in the terms of language. Even when I imagine an angel, I merely put a human figure and the wings of a bird together and give the combination a name, angel. Even when I talk of abstract qualities, for example, virtue, courage etc., I am not thinking of anything beyond sensation, but merely a classification of virtuous and courageous sensations and actions put [43] together and labelled with the name virtue or courage. All these ideas are correct so far as the Manas or understanding is concerned. The Manas is an organ of sensation, not of thought. It catches thoughts on their way from the Buddhi to the Chitta, but in catching them it turns them into the stuff of sensations, as described above. It regards them from the point of view of sensations. Animals think with their Manas and animals are not able to form ideas that do not relate themselves to some image, form, sound, smell, touch, taste etc. They are bound by their sensations. That is why in animals the Buddhi is dormant; so far as it acts, it acts behind the veil. [44] But man can become aware of things which the senses cannot grasp, *buddhi-gr^ahyam at^indriyam*. The proof of that you can get daily, when the Yogic power is developed. This single fact that man can see with his Buddhi the truth about a thing he has never seen or known before, is enough to destroy the materialistic idea of thought. That idea is only true of the Manas. The Manas responds to the senses and is always forming percepts and concepts about the sensations it receives. These ideas it sometimes gets from the outside world, sometimes from the passive memory in the Chitta, sometimes from the Buddhi. But it tries to impose them all on the Buddhi. It tests everything which it [45] does not take for granted by reference to the senses. "I saw that," "I heard that," therefore it is true, that is the reasoning of the Manas. That is why people who have a poorly developed Buddhi, attach so much importance to what they have seen or read. "I have seen it in print" says the just literate man, and he thinks he has closed the argument. What are we to do with the Manas? Get it to be still, says the Yogin. While it is busy, knowledge is impossible. You can get only fragments of knowledge. That is true and the quiet mind is no doubt essential to the Yogin. But what of the senses? Concepts in the Manas you may get rid of, but what are you to do with the percepts? You cannot [46] stop seeing, hearing etc., except when you are in Samadhi. That is why the Vedantin attaches so much importance to samadhi. It is the only condition in which he is safe from the persistent siege of the percepts of the senses. But if you can only exercise knowledge when you are in Samadhi, then you will have to become an ascetic or recluse, a man who gives up life or thought. That is a necessity which cuts the unity of God's world into two and makes an unnatural division in what should be indivisible. The Tantric knows that this is not necessary, that Samadhi is a great instrument, but not the only instrument. He so arranges his antahkarana that he can know he is walking, talking, [47] acting, sleeping, whatever he is doing. How? By not only stilling the conceptual activity of the Manas but by transferring to the Buddhi its perceptual activity. In other words he sees, hears etc., not with the senses in the manas, but with the Indriya in the Buddhi. You will find what a difference this makes. Not only do you see much more perfectly, minutely, accurately than before, but you are able to appreciate colours, forms, sounds etc., in a way you never did before. And besides you are able to catch the soul, the Guna, the essential quality and emotion of a thing, the moment you are aware of it. This is a part of what the Yoga calls Prakamya, the absolute and sovereign activity of the Indriya. [48] Therefore when the Yoga is perfect, you will not be troubled by the Manas. It will cease to perceive. It will be merely a passage, a channel for things from the Buddhi to the Chitta. There are many ways of bringing this about, but most of them suffer from this defect, that you get the thinking part of the Manas still, but the perceiving part retains its inferior and hampering activity. The best way is to use the Will simultaneously for awaking the Jnanam and for stilling the Manas. This method has two advantages. First, you do not, as in the ordinary method, have to make your mind a blank. That is a powerful but very difficult and trying discipline or Tapasya. You simply replace by degrees the activity [49] of the lower reason by the activity of the higher thought, the activity of the mind by the activity of the same organ and the sense-perceptions by the activity of the Prakamya. This process is less painful and more easy. Secondly, you cannot stop perceiving so long as you are not in Sushupti, you only stop thinking. So you cannot make your mind blank. Unless you make the Jnanam first, how are you going to get rid of this intrusive element? The Prakamya must be there already active before the ordinary perceptions can stop work. This then is the third operation of the Tantric method. You develop the Will, you use the Will to awaken the Jnanam, you use the Will to still [50] the mind and the lower Buddhi and you use the Jnanam to replace them. VI I come next to Chitta. There are two layers in the Chitta, one for the emotions, the other for passive memory. In the lower layer of the Chitta, the impressions of all things seen, thought, sensed, felt are recorded and remain until the Jiva leaves the body. Even afterwards all these impressions are taken up with the Sukshma body and go with the Jiva into the other worlds. When he is born again, they are brought with him as latent samskaras in the Muladhara; that is why people do not remember their past births, but can get back the memory by awakening [51] the Kundalini in the Muladhara. These impressions are latent in the Chitta until the active memory in the Buddhi calls for them. Those which are continually brought to the Buddhi have a habit of recurring even when not wanted, habitual thoughts, ideas, sentiments, opinions etc., which are the Yogin's chief trouble until the Manas in which they occur becomes quiet. The second and the upper layer is that of emotion. The emotions are the acts of Will sent down into the Chitta and there assuming the form of impulses. There are three divisions, thought-impulses, impulses of feeling, and impulses of action. The first are called by various names, instincts, inspirations, insights, intuitions etc. [52] They are really messages sent down by the Jiva from the Sahasradala into the Chitta, they pass unobserved through the Buddhi, lodge in the Chitta and, whenever excited by any contact external or internal, start up suddenly and strike the Buddhi with the same force as the real inspirations etc., which come down direct from the Vijnana to the Buddhi. But they come up colored by emotions, distorted by associations and memories in the Chitta, perverted by the imagination which brings them up. Much of what is called faith, Bhakti, genius, poetic inspiration etc., come from this source. It is useful to the ordinary man, all important to the animal, but a hindrance to the Yogin. The impulses of feeling are what [53] are ordinarily called emotions. The emotions are of two kinds, natural or eternal, artificial or Vikaras. Love is natural, it proceeds from Jnanam and tends to endure in the evolution; hatred is a Vikara from love, a distortion or reaction caused by Ajnanam. So courage is eternal, fear is Vikara; compassion is eternal, ghrina or weak pity, repulsion, disgust etc., are Vikaras. Those which are natural and eternal, love, courage, pity, truth, noble aspirations, are Dharma; the others are Adharma. But this is from the eternal standpoint and has nothing to do with Samajic or Laukic or temporary Dharma or Adharma. Moreover, Adharma is often necessary as a passage or preparation for passing from an undeveloped to a developed, [54] a lower to a higher Dharma. The Yogin has to get rid of Vikaras, but not of Sanatan Dharmas. The third kind of impulse is the impulse to action. Its presence in the Chitta is a temporary arrangement due to the rajasic development of the human being. The asuddha rajasic man cannot easily be stirred into action, except through two forces, desire or emotion. Love, hatred, ambition, rage etc., must stir in him or he cannot act, or acts feebly. He cannot understand shuddha pravritti, action without desire and independent of emotion. Emotion should only give a colour to the man's swabhava or temperament. He should be habitually full of feelings of love, courage, honour, true ambition, self-reliance [55] etc., but he should not act from any individual impulse of however noble a character. He should act in obedience to the impulse from the Will in direct communication with Purusha in the Vijnana, understanding with the Buddhi why the Will acts in that particular way and colouring the act with the emotion appropriate to his Swabhava. But neither the Buddhi nor the emotion should directly interfere with or try to determine his action. The Buddhi is for thought and the Chitta for emotion. Neither of them nave anything to do with action in the shuddha state. The intellectual Asura determines his actions by his reason or his ideal, the emotional Asura by his feelings. But the shuddha determines them by the higher inspiration [56] proceeding from the divine existence in the Vijnana. That is what people often call the Adesha. Only the shuddha can safely rely on having this kind of Adesha, the asuddha Yogin often mistakes his own ideas, imaginations, emotions or even desires for the Adesha. Therefore what the Yogin must aim at, is to get rid of the activity of his lower Chitta or the old impressions by stilling the Manas as described in my last lecture; get rid of his instinctive thought or thought-impulses by the same means; get rid of the habit of acting on his emotions by allowing the will to silence his impulses and purify his emotions. He should prohibit and inhibit by the Will all action or speech that starts [57] blindly from the passions or emotions surging in his heart. The emotion, will then become quiet and must be habituated to come as a sort of wave falling into a sea, instead of surging furiously into action. These quiet waves which are satisfied with existing and do not demand satisfaction in action or seek to dominate the life or the ideas, are the purified emotions. Those which rise upward into the Buddhi and try to sharp [shape?] the thought or opinion, those which move outward into speech or action, are asuddha motions [emotions?]. What I mean is that the emotions in the Chitta are for enjoyment only; the action must be dominated by a higher principle. There again it is the Will that must purify, govern and renew the [58] heart. Only, it has the best chance of doing it if the knowledge has first become active and the mind is still. A still mind means a heart easily purified. VII I come next to Prana, the nervous or vital element in man which is centralised below the Manas and Chitta in the subtle body and connected with the navel in the Sthula Deha. There I must distinguish between the Sukshma Prana and the Sthula Prana, the former moving in the nervous system of the subtle body as prescribed in the Yogic books, the latter in the nervous system of the gross body. The two are closely con[59]nected and almost always act upon each other. The prana forms the link between the physical and the mental man. I must here warn you against stumbling into the error of those who try to harmonise Yogic Science with the physical science of the Europeans and search for the Yogic Nadis and Chakras in the physical body. You will not find them there. There are certain centres in the physical nervous system with which the Chakras correspond, otherwise Hatha-yoga would be impossible. But the Chakras are not these centres. The Europeans are masters in their own province of knowledge and there you need not hesitate to learn from them, but for God's sake do not subject your higher knowledge to their power; you will [60] only create a most horrible confusion. Develop your higher knowledge first, then study their sciences and the latter will at once fall into their place. It is with the Sukshma Prana that I am principally concerned; for the Sthula Prana belongs to the Annam rather than to the Antahkarana and I will speak of it in connection with the Annam. The Sukshma Prana is the seat of desire and its purification is of the utmost importance to the Yogin. Until you have got rid of desire, you have accomplished nothing permanent. When you have got rid of desire, you are sure of everything else. That is why the Gita says "Get rid of desire first." Only until you have got knowledge and can learn to use your will to still the mind and purify [61] the emotions, you cannot utterly get rid of desire. You may drive it out by Samyama, you may hold it down by Nigraha but eventually it is of no use, for it will return. "Prakritim y^anti bh^utani nigrahah kim karishyati." Creatures follow after nature; what is the use of coercion? That is to say, it has a temporary result and the coerced desires come back revenging and more furious than before. That was what Christ meant by the parable of the devil, the unclean spirit, who is driven out of a man, only to return with seven spirits worse than himself. For it is the nature of things, the unalterable nature of things, that unpurified emotion must clamour after desire, an unstilled Manas give it harbourage [62] whenever it returns, an unilluminated Buddhi contain the seed of it ready to sprout up at the first opportunity. Therefore unless the whole Antahkarana is purified, unless you get a new heart and a new mind, desire cannot be got rid of; it returns or it remains. When however an illuminated understanding lighting up the action of a strengthened Will and supported by a pure heart, casts desire into the Sukshma Prana and attacks it there in its native place, it can be utterly destroyed. When you have a visuddha Buddhi you will be able to distinguish these various organs and locate all your mental activities. Desire can then be isolated in the Prana and the heart and mind kept pure of its insistent inroads. For [63] desire is only effective when it can get hold of the Chitta and Buddhi, generating Vikaras of emotions and perversions of knowledge which give it strength to impose itself on the Will and so influence internal and external action. It is most powerful in the higher kind of human being when it masks itself as a principle or ideal or as a justifiable emotion. Remember moreover that all desires have to be got rid of, those which are called good, as well as those which are called bad. Some people will tell you, keep the good desires and drive out the bad. Do not listen to that specious piece of ignorance. You can use the good desires to drive out the bad on condition that immediately after you drive out the good [64] also by the one desire of Mumukshutwa, liberation and union with God. And even that last desire finally you must renounce and give yourself up wholly to God's will, even in that last and greatest matter, becoming utterly desireless, nishk^ama nishpriha. Otherwise you will find yourself travelling in a vicious circle. For if you keep desire at all, he is such a born traitor that he will eventually open the door to your enemies. When the unclean spirit returned to his house, he found it swept and garnished, that is, purified of bad thoughts and adorned with good desires, and immediately he got in and made the last state of that man worse than his first. So get rid of all desires utterly, good, bad and in[65]different. Get beyond virtue as well as beyond vice. Be satisfied with no bondage even though the fetters be of pure gold. Admit no guide or master but God, even though they be gods or angels who claim your homage. Desire is composed of three elements, attachment or Asakti, longing or Kamana, and preference or Ragadwesha. Get rid of attachment first. Use your will and purified Antahkarana to throw out that clinging and insistence on things, which says "I must have that, I cannot do without that," and returns on the idea of it, even when it is persistently denied. When the emotions are quiet, this Asakti will of itself die away, but for a time it will rage a great deal and try to get the emotions [66] active again. Apply the Will steadily and patiently and do not get disturbed by failure; for desire is a terrible thing, as difficult to get rid of as a leech. It is indeed the daughter of the horseleech crying "Give, give." Do not violently silence the cry; ignore it and use your Will to get rid of the clamourer. When Asakti becomes weak, Kamana loses nine-tenths of its force and you can easily throw it off. Still for some time, out of sheer habit, the longing for certain things will come, not in the heart or Buddhi, but in the Prana; only if Asakti is gone, the refusal of the thing craved will not leave behind it a permanent grief or continual hunger. There will only be temporary disturbance of the peace of the heart. When you have got rid of [67] the Kamana, even then Raga may remain, and if Raga is there, Dwesha is sure to come in. You will not ask or crave for anything; for Kamana is gone; but when some things come, you will not like them; when some things come, you will feel glad and exultant. You will not rebel or cling to what you have, but you will not like the coming of the evil, you will not like the loss of your joy, even though you say "Very good" and submit. Get rid of that Raga and Dwesha and have perfect Samata. When you have perfect Samata, then either you will have perfect Shanti, divine peace, or else perfect or Shuddha Bhoga, divine enjoyment. Shanti is the negative Ananda and [68] those have it who rest in the Nirguna Brahman. Shuddha Bhoga is the positive Ananda and those have it who rest in the Trigunatita Ananta Brahman. You can have both and it is best to have both. God enjoys the world with Shuddha Bhoga based on the perfect Shanti. Most people cannot imagine Bhoga without Kama, enjoyment without desire. It is a foolish notion, none the less foolish because it is natural and almost universal. It is Ajnanam, a fundamental part of ignorance. Enjoyment does not really begin until you get rid of desire. That which you get as the result of satisfied desire is troubled, unsafe, feverish, or limited, but Shuddha Bhoga is calm, self-possessed, victorious, unlimited, with[69]out satiety and Vairagya, immortally blissful. It is in a word, not Harsha, not Sukha, but Ananda. It is Amrita, it is divinity and immortality, it is becoming of one nature with God. It has been no kama but pure Lipsa, an infinite readiness to take and enjoy whatever God gives it. Grief, pain, disgrace, everything that is to rajasic men a torture, changes then to bliss. Even if such a soul were to be cast into hell, it would not feel hell, but heaven. It would not only say with the Bhakta "This is from the beloved" but with the perfect Jnani "This is the Beloved; this is the Anandam Brahman: this is the Kantam, the Shivam, Shubham, Sundaram." I need not repeat the process by which this purification is effected. I [70] have indicated it sufficiently. This Tantric process is the same throughout, the reliance on the Shakti, the divine Will working in the Adhar, without any effort on the part of the Purusha, who remains Akarta throughout the sadhana, but still Ishwara, the source of the command and the sanction, the ruler dispossessed by his subjects and gradually recovering control of his rebellious and disordered kingdom. ----------------------------------------------------------------- From 73632.105@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 16:42:51 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 12:42:51 EDT From: "Frank J. Dyer" <73632.105@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Uncola Message-Id: <960729164250_73632.105_FHV101-2@CompuServe.COM> Jerry S. wrote: > Frank, this is not only arrogant, as but misguided. "crystals, >tarot, and rituals" are all techniques. You are comparing techniques >to "deeper teachings." This is like saying that soup is better than >a spoon. But without the spoon, how does one taste the soup? The >"fact" of the matter is, rituals and crystals can be used to directly >experience those "deeper teachings" that otherwise remain >just mental gymnastics. I think that one can access the profundity of Theosophical teachings in a meaningful, personal, noetic way without the use of rituals or crystals. In fact, HPB was decidedly against the use of magickal ritual, stating that it was dangerous. I would hardly characterize the TS teachings as "mental gymnastics", although it is entirely possible to pervert them in this manner by arguing over nuances as though they were dogma of some kind demanding an orthodox recitation. Of course, that is not what they are at all. Sometimes I wonder whether we, collectively, realize just what it is that has been entrusted to us and what use we are to make of it. Anyway, my point is that there are many individuals out there who do not know that there is any soup to be had and are merely chewing on the spoon. I suppose that this affords them some gratification. But they would be much more nourished if some Theosophist were to inform them that the spoon can be used for something palatable. Maybe they would even acquire a taste for soup. But there will always (in this manvantara at least) be some who will prefer to scarf down those greasy Mc D's and french fries or just chew the spoon. --Frank From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Mon Jul 29 16:54:16 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:54:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Yogic Sadhan 3/3 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII YOGIC SADHANA---Part 3/3 ------------------------------------------------------------ VIII There remains the Sthula, the gross part of man which is composed of the Sthula Prana or physical nervous system and the annam or body in which the prana operates. [71] The prana is the principle of life,--death is brought about by the dissolution of the tie between the sukshma deha and the sthula deha. That tie is the prana. The sukshma deha takes the prana into itself and departs; the little that is left in the gross body is of the nature of apana with a tendency to that species of dissolution which we call corruption. The prana part of it, which can alone hold the body together, evaporates and the apana leads to swift disintegration. In some animals, however, the prana is so abundant that the body shows signs of life even after the sukshma deha has departed. I have been dealing throughout with the purification of the sukshma part of man, the Antahkarana or [72] mind,--the subject of the body is a little foreign to my purpose. Nevertheless a few words are necessary. The principle upon which this Yoga I am explaining to you stands, is that the gross body is merely the shadow or creation of the subtle. Body is a mould into which mind pours itself, but the mould itself has been prepared by the mind and can be changed by the mind. A mind purified, liberated and perfected (siddha) can do whatever it likes with the body. It may leave it as it is, allowing the past karma to do its will with the physical part in the form of disease, suffering, misfortune and death, without the mind being in the least affected. All that is impurity and bondage, which is the physical translation and result [73] of mental impurity and bondage. With the cessation of the cause, the effect ceases; but not at once. It is again like the steam and the locomotive. The habits, the results created by past lives, are expelled from the mind and precipitated entirely into the body. You may allow them to work themselves out there, many do that. On the other hand, you may pursue them into the body and drive them out from there as well. In that case you get the Kayasuddhi and the Kayasiddhi. They are usually sought after by the Hathayogic or Rajayogic processes, but these are not necessary. It is even better and certainly much easier and surer to follow the processes I have been indicating. The very fact of having a purified [74] mind makes for purity of the body, a liberated mind for liberation of the body, a perfected mind for perfection of the body, and to a certain extent as you go on with the yoga in the Antahkarana, the body will automatically begin to respond to the new influences. But you should not consciously meddle with the body until you have finished with the mind. Let nature do its work. Detach yourself as much as possible from the body, think of it as a mere case, leave it to the care of God and His Shakti. Many sadhaks are frightened by illness in the course of the Yoga. You need not be frightened, for you have put yourself in God's hands and He will see to it. It will come to you only as a part of the necessary process for [75] purification of the body, work itself out, fade and return no more. Other disturbances of the body will come which are incidental to the turning of unfit physical adhar into a fit one. Profound alterations are necessary in your brain-cells, your nervous system, your digestive and secretive processes and they cannot be effected without some physical disturbance, but it will never be more than is necessary for the process. Do no violence of any kind to the body; if you use physical remedies, let them be of the simplest and purest kind; above all dismiss anxiety and fear. You cannot care more for yourself than God cares for you. Only your care is likely to be ignorant and unwise; His is with [76] knowledge and uses the right means to the right end. Impurities in the body show themselves chiefly as disease, as pain, as the discomfort of heat and cold, as the necessity of the excretive processes. The first sign of Kayasuddhi is the disappearance of all tendency to disease; the second is liberation from dwandwa of heat and cold, which will either go altogether or change to pleasurable sensations often marked by electrical phenomena; and the third, the diminution or disappearance of excretive activity. Pain also can be entirely eliminated from the body, but even before the reaction called pain is got rid of, or even without its being got rid of, the discomfort of pain can be removed and replaced by [77] a sort of bodily Ananda. Finally, the craving of hunger and thirst disappears from the prana to which it belongs and the dependence on food diminishes or ceases. The perfection of all this is the basis of Kayasuddhi. But perfect Kayasuddhi includes other developments such as the siddhis of Mahima, Laghima, Anima and the invulnerability and incorruptibility of the body,--powers hitherto attained in the Kaliyuga only by very advanced Siddhas. They depend primarily on the replacement of the ordinary fivefold processes of prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana by the single simplified action of the original or elemental force of prana, the infinite vital energy surcharged with electricity, vaidyutam. [78] All these are important elements to Tantric Yoga, but I have mentioned them only cursorily because they are foreign to my purpose. They can all be developed if the mental siddhi is perfected and it is on this perfection that I wish you to concentrate your energy and attention. When you get that, you get everything. The centre of man's activity, at present, are the buddhi, the heart and the manas, and the body, though extremely important, is a dependent and subordinate function. It has not to be despised on that account, but most people give it an undue importance. When the Jiva is Ishwara of his mind, his body falls into its proper place and instead of interfering and often domineering over the mind and will, it obeys and [79] takes its stamp from them. The Europeans are obsessed with the idea of the physical as the master of the mental. I would have you hold fast to the opposite standpoint and always remember that for the body to impose its conditions on the mind is an abnormal state of man's being, which has to be got rid of; it is the mind that must command, condition and modify the body. IX CONCLUSION I have finished what I had to say. I will only add a word in conclusion. You must not think that what I have given you, is all the knowledge you need about yourself or about the [80] Yoga. On the contrary, these are only certain indications necessary at a particular stage; they are chiefly important for purification which is the first part of the Yoga. After the shuddhi is complete one has to perfect the mukti, to get liberation, a thing easy after shuddhi, impossible before it. By mukti I do not mean *laya*, which is a thing not to be pursued or desired, but waited for whenever God wills, but liberation from ignorance, Ahankara and all dualities. With the progress of the purification, there will be a natural tendency towards liberation and the farther stages of yoga, bhukti and siddhi, liberated enjoyment and perfection. As you go forward you will have to change your attitude, not radically but in certain [81] important points. That, however, I will not meddle with. It is well to do one thing at a time. In all that I have written, I have taken one standpoint to which many of you have not been accustomed. If you regard Vairagyam as the beginning of all wisdom, you will not be satisfied with me. Vairagyam is to me merely a useful temporary state of mind which God uses to enforce rejection of that to which the old samskaras cling too obstinately to be unseated from it by mere abhyasa. Jnanam is essential to shuddhi and mukti; but Jnanam must be assisted either by abhyasa or by vairagya until the mind is still and lets knowledge do its own work. As soon as the mind is still and not susceptible to resuscitation of [82] its old energies from outside, the Jnanam develops, the Shakti pursues its task unhampered; there is then no sadhan for you, only a progressive siddhi without any deliberately adopted method, increasing by the mere easy and natural process of Nature as a man breathes or walks. All necessity for either abhyasa or vairagya ceases. Attachment to vairagya is as harmful as attachment to lobha itself. Again if you think with the Buddhists that all life is a misery and extinction of some kind the highest good, or if you think with the Mayavadin that we came into this world with no other object but to get out of it again as soon as possible, like the famous general whose greatest mili[83]tary exploit was to march up a hill in order to march back again, you had better pass me by. I am a Tantric. I regard the world as born of Ananda and living by Ananda, wheeling from Ananda to Ananda. Ananda and Shakti, these are the two real terms of existence. Sorrow and weakness are vikaras born of ajnanam, of the forgetfulness of the high and true self. These are not universal or eternal things, but local and temporary, local mainly of this earth, temporary in the brief periods of the kali yuga. Our business is to bring down heaven on earth for ourselves and mankind, to eliminate sorrow and weakness from the little corners of existence and time, where they are allowed to exist. I do not give any assent to the gloomy [84] doctrine which preaches a world of sorrow and inaction and withdrawal from it as the sole condition of bliss and freedom, which thinks, contrary to all reason and knowledge, that God in himself is blessed, but God in manifestation accursed. I will not admit that the Brahman is a fool or a drunkard dreaming bad dreams, self-hypnotised into miserable illusions. I do not find that teaching in the Veda; it does not agree with my realisations which are of the actuality of unalterable bliss and knowledge in the midst of desireless phenomenal action. I am of the mind of Sri Krishna in the Mahabharata when he says, "Some preach action in this world and some preach inaction; but as for those who preach inaction, I [85] am not of the opinion of those weaklings." *Na me matam tasya durbalasya*. But the action he holds up as an example, is the action of the great Gods, even as Goethe speaks of the action of the great natural forces, disinterested, unwearying, self-poised in bliss, not limited even by the sattwic ahankara action, made one in difference with the Purushottama, my being in His being, my shakti only a particular action of His infinite shakti, of Kali. I am not ignorant, I am not bound, I am not sorrowful: I only play at being ignorant, I only pretend to be bound; like an actor or like an audience I only take the rasa of sorrow. I can throw it off when I please. Who calls me degraded and [86] sinful, a worm crawling upon the earth among other worms? I am Brahman, I am He, sin cannot touch me. Who calls me weak? I am one with the Omnipotent. He, being One, has chosen to be Many. He, being infinite, localises himself in many centres and in each centre He is still infinite. That is the mystery of existence, the *uttamam rahasyam*, God's great, wonderful and blissful secret, a secret logic rejects, but knowledge grasps at, a knowledge not to be argued out but realised, but proved by experience, by the purified, liberated, all enjoying, all-perfect soul. ----------- [87] EDITOR'S EPILOGUE A few words seem necessary in conclusion. For it is as well to guard against certain misconceptions which may arise from the brevity of the author and his omission of some important points considered by him, no doubt, to be, however important, yet outside his scope. The prohibition of cheshta in the ideal use of the will does not imply the renunciation of Karma. The chesta referred to is internal, not external, arambha, not karma. The distinction is that made by Sri Krishna [88] in the Gita when he holds up the ideal of action with renunciation of all arambhas,--*sarv^arambh^an parityajya*. We are to do actions with the body, mind, buddhi, senses, each doing its own separated work in its absolute purified simplicity, *kevalair*, without any desire, expectation or straining in this will after either action or its success. The sadhak should abstain from applying his method to important actions in life until the higher purified will is to some extent trained, and even then it will be best for him to apply it to things of smaller moment first, then to those of greater moment. During the sadhana subjective progress and superfluous action small or great should be his main fields for test anf training. [89] Secondly, it must not be supposed that the treatment in these short lectures is intended to be full or exhaustive or that even in those points which it handles at the greatest length all has been said that the sadhak needs to know. On the contraty, only a few main ideas have been broadly struck out which may be useful to the beginner. The more advanced will find that they have rapidly outgrown the utility of these hints and that they have to be greatly enlarged on and modified before the knowledge at which they point can be considered full and satisfactory. Finally, the aim of the particular path of Yoga indicated is not the assertion of the individual will, but surrender of the individual will, its [90] absolute, unreserved and ungrudging surrender into the direction and control of the Infinite Being. The training of the system or adhar prescribed has for its purpose, first, the subjugation of the clamorous desires and impulses, the stubborn pride and egoism, the vain self- sufficient reason and imagination of the unregenerate man so that they may not interfere with the completeness of the surrender, secondly, the possession of a strong, mighty and effective will to offer as a yajna to the Most High and not one that is weak, distracted, ignorant and diffident. The Karma of the Siddha Yogin must be like that of the sun and stars, the avalanche and the cyclone, the breeze moon or flowers, fire and the dust of the earth, [91] either calm and luminous or mighty and violent or gentle, sweet and useful, either lofty or humble at the will of the One Supreme Shakti, impelled and used by Her entirely, and, whatever its outward appearance, always working on a basis of absolute peace, self- surrender and self-knowledge. -------------- [(i)] GLOSSARY *Abhy^asa* -- Yogic practice. *^adesha* -- a divine command from within the being. *^adh^ara* -- the containing system composed of the five sheaths of the five principles constituting the physical, vital, mental, supramental and spiritual being. *adharma* -- all that is contrary to the Right and the Law. *ahank^ara* -- the ego-sense, egoism. *ajn^anam* -- ignorance. [*akarta* -- non-doer.] *akartabya* -- that which should not be done. *amrita* -- essence of immortality. *^ananda* -- spiritual delight, the bliss of the Spirit. *ananta* -- infinite. [(ii)] *anim^a* -- subtlety, the power of making the body subtle, reducing the physical mass and density at will. *an^isha* -- not lord, not master of but subject to the nature. *annam* -- matter. *anritam* -- falsehood, unreality. *antahkarana* -- the inner instrument, the mind in all its functions. *anumant^a* -- giver of the sanction to the movements of the nature. *ap^ana* -- the vital force (one of the five pranas) that works for ejection. *^arambha* -- mental initiation of the action. *artha* -- sense, meaning. *^asakti* -- attachment. *^asana* -- yogic posture. *ashuddhi* -- impurity. *ashuddha* -- not purified. *asiddha* -- not perfected. [*asura* -- in Hindu mytholody, demons or titans; in this text, a man controlled by his lower nature: violent emotions, appetites, unenlightened reason, etc.] *^atman* -- the self. *^atma-jn^ana* -- self-knowledge. *avatar* -- incarnation. [More specifically, the God or a god incarnated in a human form.] [(iii)] *bhukti* [should be *bhakti*] -- emotional devotion. *bhakta* -- devotee. *bhart^a* -- maintainer of the nature. *bh^ava* -- subjective state or feeling, a realisation in heart or mind. *bhoga* -- enjoyment. *bhokt^a* -- enjoyer. *bhransha* -- a definitive fall from the principle of the Yoga. *bhrashta* -- fallen from the way of the Yoga. *bhukti* -- spiritual possession and enjoyment. [*brahman* -- supreme being; supreme deity, an impersonal Supreme principle.] *buddhi* -- the reason, intelligence. *chaitanyam* -- consciousness. *chakra* -- a centre of the nervous system. *chest^a* -- effort involving desire, struggle and labour. *chit* -- the essential consciousness of the Spirit. *chitta* -- the mind or heart consciousness; especially, the emotive mind. [(iv)] *chittashuddhi* -- purification of the mind and heart consciousness. [*dhairyam* -- calm steadfastness.] *dharma* -- law of function of nature; right, moral law. *s^am^ajik dharma* -- social law. *laukik dharma* -- rule of custom. *san^atana dharma* -- eternal law. [*dharma-sankara* -- confusion of dharma.] [*dosha* -- deficiency, weakness.] *dwandwa* -- duality, pair of opposites. *dwesha* -- dislike. *ekam ev^adwit^iyam* -- one without a second. [*guna* -- one of three elemental qualities of Nature: sattwa (harmony, light), rajas (activity, dynamism), and tamas (inertia, heaviness, statics).] *harsha* -- joy. *^ishwara* -- lord; God, as lord of nature. *indriya* -- sense. *jiva* -- the individual soul. *jn^anam* -- knowledge. *jn^an^i* -- a man of knowledge. *jn^at^a* -- knower. [*Kali* -- in Hindu mythology, a fierce, terrifying, destructive aspect of the supreme female deity; in this text it is identical to Shakti (see p. 19).] [*kali yuga* -- literally "the dark age"; in Hinduism, the present world period characterized by moral and spiritual decline.] *kalpa* -- a world cycle. *k^aman^a* -- desire. *k^antam* -- lovely, attractive. *k^arana* -- the causal being etc., source of the mental and physical being. *mahak^arana* -- the originative self. [(v)] *karma* -- action entailing its consequences. [Also, man's destiny or fate determined by the sum total of his actions in this life or in previous lives.] *kartavya* -- the thing to be done, duty. *k^aya-siddhi* -- perfection of the body. *k^aya-shuddhi* -- purification of the body. *kumbhaka* -- retention of the breath in the exercise of *pr^an^ay^ama*. *kundalin^i* -- the Shakti or energy coiled up in the lowest of the nervous centres. *kevalair* -- absolute, alone, in their pure action. *laghim^a* -- lightness, the power of making the body light, reducing gravity at will. *laya* -- dissolution of the individual being in the Brahman. [*lila* -- literally "play"; in this text, God's cosmic play, i.e. a playful revelation of His energy in the manifested universe.] [*lipsa* -- see p.69.] *lobha* -- greed of desire. [*mahakarana* -- see *karana*.] *mah^apantha* -- the great path. *mahat* -- lit. the great, the causal state, *k^arana*. *mahim^a* -- greatness, the power of increasing the physical mass and density at will. [(vi)] *manas* -- the sense-mind as opposed to the reason. [mayavadin -- an adherent of the doctrine asserting that the entire visible cosmos is maya--an illusion, a mental projection, and as such has no inherent value.] *mukti* -- spiritual liberation. *mumukshutwa* -- desire for spiritual liberation. *mul^adh^ara* -- the lowest of the nervous centres. *n^adi* -- nerve or nervous channel. *nigraha* -- coercion of the nature. *nirguna* -- void of qualities. *nishk^ama nishprihah* -- free from desire, free from longing. [*parabrahman* -- see p. 29.] *parameshwara* -- the supreme Lord. *pr^ajna* -- the soul in the causal consciousness. *prak^amya* -- a free and unlimited power of mental and sense perceptions. *pr^ana* -- vital force generally; especially, the first of the five pranas, the breath. *pr^an^ay^ama* -- the Yogic exercise of the respiration. *pratyaksha* -- direct perception, direct knowledge. [(vii)] *pravritti* -- impulsion to activity. [Purusha, Purushottama -- the Cosmic Man, the Primeval Being, the Supreme Being.] *r^aga* -- liking. *r^ajasic* -- belonging to the quality of action and passion. *s^adhak* -- one who practises a system of Yoga. *s^adhana* -- a method, system, practice of Yoga. *sahasradala* -- the thousand-petalled lotus, the highest nervous centre, based, in the physical body, on the brain. *s^akshi* -- a witness, the soul as a detached witness of the actions of the nature. *sam^adhi* -- the Yogic trance. *sam^ana* -- a vital force, one of the five pranas. *samat^a* -- equality of soul and mind to all things and happenings. [*samskara* -- a residue or latent impression of previous experiences that may become activated, but largely manifests itself as a propensity to action.] *samyama* -- a spiritual control of the nature. [*sat* -- the essential being of the Spirit; forms a part of a triad, sat-chit-ananda.] *satyam* -- truth. *sattwic* -- belonging to the quality of light and happiness. [*shad ripus* -- literally "six enemies," i.e. six main vices: anger, passionate desire, pride, stealing, arrogance, and folly.] [(viii)] *shakti* -- force, energy; the divine or cosmic Energy. *sh^anti* -- peace, spiritual calm. *shivam* -- benign, auspicious, good. *shuddha* -- pure, purified. *shuddhi* -- purification, purity. *shubham* -- good, happy. *siddha* -- perfected by Yoga, one perfect in the Yoga. *siddh^anta* -- a logical or philosophical conclusion. *siddhi* -- yogic perfection. *sth^ula* -- gross. *sth^uka deha* -- the material body. *sth^ula pr^ana* -- the vital force in the material body. *sukha* -- happiness, pleasure. *s^ukshma* -- subtle. *s^ukshma deha* -- the subtle mental body. *s^ukshma pr^ana* -- the psycho-vital force. *sundaram* -- beautiful. [*Surya* -- literally "(the god of) Sun"; in this text (p. 40) it probably means the light of knowledge.] [(ix)] *sushupti* -- the state of deep sleep; the deepest state of Samadhi; the condition in which one enters into the causal or seed state. *swabh^ava* -- the nature proper to each being. *swapna* -- the dream state, in which one lives in the subtle soul and not in the physical consciousness. [*tamasi dhriti* -- see p. 18.] [Tantra -- a school of Indian philosophy and an esoteric Indian religion based on the idea that the nondual Supreme Reality has two manifested aspects, Shiva (male aspect representing pure consciousness and transcendent passivity) and Shakti (female aspect representing energy, time, and activity). It is the notion of Shakti as a cosmic energy projected by Shiva and representing an active force in the manifested universe that makes Tantra distinct from other schools of Indian philosophy.] [Tantric -- (1) related to Tantra; (2) an adherent of Tantra.] *tamasic* -- belonging to the guna of ignorance and inertia. [*tapasya* -- spiritual discipline; austerity.] *trigun^atita* -- beyond the control of the three gunas or elemental qualities of Nature. *ud^ana* -- the upward moving vital force, one of the five pranas. *ud^asinat^a* -- indifference to the world or to objects of desire, etc. [*upalabdhi* -- perception, observation, empirical experience.] [*upasana* -- devotion, worship.] [*vaidyutam* -- see p. 77.] *vair^agya* -- distaste for the world and life; cessation of attraction to the objects of the mind's attachment. *v^ak* -- speech. *v^asan^a* -- desire. [(x)] *vibh^uti* -- a man who is a manifestation of some power of the divine Being. *vijn^ana* -- the higher knowledge, the power above the ordinary logical reason which gives the direct knowledge. *vik^ara* -- a perversion; a changed, temporal or unsound formation of the reality. *vishuddha* -- wholly purified. *viveka* -- direct intuitive discrimination. *vy^ana* -- a vital force, one of the five pranas, pervading the body. [*yantra, yantri* -- see p. 15.] ----------------------------------------------------------- From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 29 17:15:02 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:15:02 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960729131457_372286839@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement K. Paul Johnson writes> >I have concluded that what people have to lose, if for example >they let go of certain dogmas about the Masters, is their >sense of being a special people, a chosen people, HPB the one >sole chosen messenger of the one brotherhood that preserves the >one ancient wisdom. [snip] . . . for people whose >illusion is that they are at the center of the universe due to >some special link with a unique source of truth-- losing that >illusion destroys their whole world. So true. So-so true. In psychogenetic terms, this represents the temporary creation of a psyche at the desire-mental (kama-manas) level--"I ~am~ the idea or putative knowledge which attracts me." However, like most people, I personally indulge plenty of these "semi-Selves" throughout the day--and not always keeping the "Once-Removed Vantage" upon myself, either--so I don't want to speak from a supercilious, I-used-to-be-like-you position. Still, I agree that the "Specially Chosen" people can get a little irritating when they base everything on their little leap of faith concerning some supposedly indefectable, wonder-working Masters. Just a judicious bit of belief about a preternatural Source and not only are the ideas and knowledge involved instantly elevated above normal scrutiny, but the true-believers themselves automatically get to parade around with the superior mien of those who have been judged worthy enough to carry the Arc of the Covenant from place to place. But here's something which may surprise you: I sometimes think I owe a greater debt of gratitude to the fourth-level-indulging "faithful" who have peopled the TS over the years than I do my brother and sister eclectic Truth-Seekers who may be more tempted to egoically delude themselves at the fifth or sixth levels. At least the Principal Theosophical Philosophy (PTP) has been carried more or less in tact to the threshold of the Twenty-First Century. Without those who have religiously swatted every deviational fly with THE SECRET DOCTRINE, there is a chance, as Eldon recently said, that the PTP (or did he say ~Theosophy~ again?) would only be a minor underground rivulet at this point. But HPB is still the major river in the TS and for that I am thankful. I am convinced that a good understanding of the ins-and-outs of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis will be necessary before the "mytho-analogical method" can produce an adequate "Psychogenesis" by means of them. Naturally, certain people are unlikely to appreciate the first two components of the PTP starting to be spoken of in terms of their simple utility in in the creation of a psychological analog, of course, but hey--let the Master-propped-up mavins move up and start looking at the matter with some temporary semi-Selves at least created at the fifth, dispassionate-mental, level if they are worried that Theosophy (the movement) is starting to leave them behind. . . . Do I mean to imply that I believe that Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis will someday be relegated to the status of ~only~ mythological constructs? No. Even if becomes perfectly apparent that they have their principal utility as magnificient "blinds" for an ancient system of Adept-psychology and the development of "latent powers," they will continue to stand, I believe, as ~potential~, literal knowledge in and of themselves. How can one approach this type of possible, non-empirical knowledge? By means of transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception, of course: in short, telling someone else's status-bringing Master to butt-out up for a minute so that your own Master has a chance to give you some ineffable ~inner certainty~ about it. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 29 17:50:08 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 13:50:08 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607291750.NAA24724@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement In-Reply-To: <960729131457_372286839@emout14.mail.aol.com>; from "RIhle@aol.com" at Jul 29, 96 1:15 pm According to RIhle@aol.com: > > I sometimes think I owe a greater debt of gratitude to the > fourth-level-indulging "faithful" who have peopled the TS over the years than > I do my brother and sister eclectic Truth-Seekers who may be more tempted to > egoically delude themselves at the fifth or sixth levels. As in, "I am my..." what? At least the > Principal Theosophical Philosophy (PTP) has been carried more or less in tact > to the threshold of the Twenty-First Century. Without those who have > religiously swatted every deviational fly with THE SECRET DOCTRINE, there is > a chance, as Eldon recently said, that the PTP (or did he say ~Theosophy~ > again?) would only be a minor underground rivulet at this point. Isn't that the same thing that happened *with* them swatting all those flies? If Theosophists for the past century had been as openly, deeply engaged in dialogue with the leading thinkers of the day as the Founders were, then the movement would not be a minor underground rivulet. > From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 20:09:20 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 16:09:20 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Bailey Material on WWW Message-Id: <960729200920_72723.2375_FHP74-1@CompuServe.COM> Hi folks, While it is true that the Bailey organization does not (as yet) have an official web page, there are links to Bailey material at this URL: http://www2.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/networks-theosophy.html I believe most of this material was put on the web by Patrick Alessandra, who is a member of our list. There is a particularly intriguing astrological mandala that can be printed out, as well was other things. - Ann E. Bermingham From euser@euronet.nl Mon Jul 29 22:11:11 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:11:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607292211.AAA10623@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Books on the web Bjorn wrote: What works best seems to be to have the texts available directly in HTML format. Can even be ASCII as "preformatted" HTML. In that way it is immediately accessible and many more people will actually read it (or portions of it). Is this what you have in mind? Yes, pointers to ascii files (chapters), and also an option for downloading the entire book (in .zip format). BTW, what exactly do you mean by ascii as 'preformatted' HTML? Browsers can read ascii files easily. Do you mean something like number of columns restricted to, say, 70, or so? (and some clear paragraph-structure?) Martin From euser@euronet.nl Mon Jul 29 22:11:17 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:11:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607292211.AAA10636@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Alan and Michael R.-what are your views on reincarnation & karma? Hi Alan, Michael Alan Bain said in a previous post that his view on reincarnation is different from the standard Theosophical one. Alan, could you tell us a little (or more:)) about that? How did you arrive at such a different view? Does your view imply a different notion about karma as well? I'm curious about that, because spiritualists (broadly speaking: those who have communion with spirits) seem to have different opinions on these topics (too) than (most?) Theosophists have and I would like to understand more about these differences. The reason that I mention spiritualists here is because you said to have (had) certain experiences that may make you understand spiritualists better than most (?) of us do. To Michael Rogge: if you would bother to say something on this, I would appreciate that too (very much). Martin From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 29 21:52:27 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 22:52:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: The Uncola In-Reply-To: <199607291414.KAA01880@leo.vsla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607291414.KAA01880@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >> But what if the coke and pepsi drinkers outnumber those for the sevenup in >> the T.S.? >> >Make them feel totally unwelcome by constantly harping on how >superior you are to them! That should solve the problem >eventually. "Eventually" gets closer and closer ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 23:24:13 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:24:13 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729192412_444855876@emout14.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Blavatsky, Beatles and Elvis Keith, Beware of blaspheming Holy Elvis, for as all know he was a true avatar and sacred ash falls from his black velvet memorials (Eat you're heart out, Sai Baba Booey!) :-). I've only had the misfortune to hear one Scriabin piece and you're right, no one listens to him because even the musicians become nauseous at playing his work. And Kandinsky was a bore. There is something strange that happens whenever an artist arrogates himself to the point were he thinks that his work has spiritual qualities. It makes that work dreadful. There is a spiritual quality to some art, but it is not put there consciously, but rather comes from the spirit of the artist. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 23:24:55 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:24:55 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729192202_444855986@emout13.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Retro-Future of Theosophy Keith, all you really need is to drop the message into your radionic box, hook up your helmet and you're off to devachan, complete with cans and cans full of devas. Chuck the Heretic From RIhle@aol.com Mon Jul 29 23:31:48 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:31:48 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960729192932_444859643@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Richard Ihle writes>> >> I sometimes think I owe a greater debt of gratitude to the >> fourth-level-indulging "faithful" who have peopled the TS over the years >>than I do my brother and sister eclectic Truth-Seekers who may be more >>tempted to egoically delude themselves at the fifth or sixth levels. K. Paul Johnson writes> >As in, "I am my..." what? R.I.> Fifth-Level: "I am my dispassionate knowledge, information, idea, or mental process." The difference between a desire-mental (kama-manas) and a mental (manas) ego-formation is simply that the content of the latter is not tainted by like/dislike or ulterior impulse of a lower nature. Of course, the same thought--e.g., "Wonder-working Masters really do exist"--may temporarily come into being on either level ("egoic stratum"); however, for the manas ego-formation, it is just a matter of fact or logical conclusion . . . whereas for kama-manas the ego-formation owes its existence and is at least partially shaped by something else--perhaps the desire to feel like a "chosen person," as you said, or gather disciples, or hold office in the TS, etc. Sixth Level: "I am my Knowing which precedes even dispassionate knowledge, information, idea, or mental process." Those who are not lurking on medit-l, unfortunately missed a good example of this with the "kicking over the water jar" story which illustrated how the jet of ~immediate apprehension~ really flies over well before the "vapor trail" of naming or other symbolic correletive gets a chance to form. K.P.J.> >Isn't that [the PTP becoming a minor underground rivulet] the same thing that >happened *with* them swatting all those flies? If Theosophists for the past century >had been as openly, deeply engaged in dialogue with the leading thinkers of the day >as the Founders were, then the movement would not be a minor underground rivulet. R.I.> Yes, I agree. On the other hand, I don't believe the "movement" has a prayer anyway if it just plans to go ~thinking~ its way into the Twenty-First Century. Neither do I believe it will profit much from any New Age re-hashes of Old Age developmental and magical technique. Everything which I have written in the foregoing and which may or may not be true about kama-manas etc. is likely to be important for an aspirant, because little, it seems to me, can be accomplished until one starts recognizing--and keeping the Once-Removed-Vantage upon--the ever-changing myriad of ego-formations which come and go and delude as they come and go. However, I am convinced that a very sizeable percentage of people--and most without benefit of any special terminology whatever--are already quite practiced in this, at least at the less-rarefied levels. No, if the Theosophical Movement is to take off again, it will only be, in my opinion, because a ~new, simple, practical, easily practiced developmental technique~ suddenly becomes suggested by the Psychogenetic component of the PTP. One that is just a toenail in advance of existing meditation, visualization, self-affirmation etc. approaches. Undoubtedly like you, Jerry Schueler, and many others on theos-l, I have my own very "hot prospect" in mind right at this very moment. If I can make it work without losing my toe, I will share it sooner or later. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 23:34:26 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:34:26 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729192031_444855246@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Full Moon in Aquaraius meditation - Impure TS Yoga?? You see, impurity IS good! Also fun. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jul 29 23:35:24 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:35:24 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960729192137_444856075@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Full Moon (to Keith) Ann, You're wrong about Dorothy and computers. She was the one who really brought them in and put pc's all over the place. Of course, they were older xts and ats but that was what they had in them days. She sent Rueben off to learn how to use them and made him somewhat insufferable in the process (it is now impossible to talk to him about anything but computers). Chuck From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 30 00:24:33 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 01:24:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: To Alan and Michael R.-what are your views on reincarnation & karma? In-Reply-To: <199607292211.AAA10636@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607292211.AAA10636@mail.euronet.nl>, Martin_Euser writes >Hi Alan, Michael > >Alan Bain said in a previous post that his view on reincarnation is different >from the standard Theosophical one. The "standard" Theosophical view as I have met it is usually that offered by CWL/Jinarajadasa & Co. This goes something like either: 1. Life evolves "upward" from the lower kingdoms to the higher, so that at some (undefined) point "lower" animals incarnate for the first time as humans. 2. New human souls come into incarnation (ex nihilo?) In either scenario we are said to be on a learning path, acquiring karma which will be worked out in future lives, of which there will be a very large number before we reach a state whereby we will qualify to get off the wheel of rebirth in this world. Jinarajadasa's model (based upon CWL 'clairvoyant' observations) allows for varying periods between lives which can be small, say 20 years, but is often hundreds of years. All this has been going on since (say) the "big bang." In emulation of Coue, we could say of this model, "In every life in every way I am getting better and better and better." From such a view, certain inescapable observations emerge. 1. In support of the long time it takes to gain "perfection" we can note that the world population is increasing all the time, which would confirm that sould are coming back over and over again. 2. Against this view, we can note that an overall expected improvement in the spiritual, ethical, and "moral" nature of humanity has *not* accompanied this process, which according the the theory we should expect to have seen by now. The *evidence* suggests that the development (spiritual or whatever) is actually getting "worse" - certainly nastier. 3. Also against this view, if new humans are appearing all the time, *and* it takes those who are on the wheel of rebirth vast ages to get off, there has to come a time when due to the slow progress of human beings, there will be no room to move on the planet. So ... given the "conventional" view, the evidence of logic is against its accuracy. But there is other evidence. People "remember" past lives, and there are many recorded accounts of such memories. In countries such as India, where reincarnation is held to be a fact, most accounts concern the almost *immediate* reincarnation of someone, and the best documented ones show the new soul inhabiting a child in a family not far from its former abode in terms of time *and* distance. This does *not* concur with the TS teaching. Past life recall can be achieved by hypnotic regression methods, sometimes with spectacular results. However, dramatic though such evidence can be, there are alternative and viable alternatives. Ian Wilson, wrote a book called "Time out of Mind" which offers some of these, as does some of the work of hypnotic regression researchers. *I have past life memories* which could fit the TS model, but which also support the Indian evidence, as well as an alternative explanation, eg, that I can recall a past life, with all the sense of personal memory which such experiences give, BUT the life recalled is not necessarily any form of "me" at all, but the memory pf a past life belonging to the person whose life it was - I am experiencing that memory "out of time." One memory cold be a past life recall, but fits the "reincarnating quickly" model, and is (as all similar ones are) a sepcial case - death in battle. I was in a 1st World War aircraft, and was shot down (1918). Reborn in 1933 with an otherwise unaccountably emotional attachment to songs of WWI. > >Alan, could you tell us a little (or more:)) about that? >How did you arrive at such a different view? See above. >Does your view imply a different notion about karma as well? Insofar as I do not consider karma to be anything other than cause and effect (I bang my thumb with a hammer, it hurts). OOB experience and Near death experience suggest that individual "karma" - the consequences of my own actions in this life - are dealt with and absorbed at the end of this individual life - the "judgement." As I've said before on theos-l, karma means "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." > >I'm curious about that, because spiritualists (broadly speaking: those who >have communion with spirits) seem to have different opinions on these topics >(too) >than (most?) Theosophists have and I would like to understand more about >these differences. >The reason that I mention spiritualists here is because you said to have >(had) certain experiences that may make you understand spiritualists better than >most (?) of us do. Perhaps. Often, if someone I know has a relative or near one who has just died, I "see" them or even "hear from" them, but only within the first few days after their decease. All my experiences in this area *confirm* the general ideas and experiences of the spiritualists. So, my reincarnation experiences are more in accord with spiritualist experiences than theosophical teaching suggests. This is a long and inevitably incomplete post, so if you want to ask me more, I suggest another time! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 01:08:47 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 21:08:47 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Computers invade TSA Message-Id: <960730010847_72723.2375_FHP39-1@CompuServe.COM> chuck: >You're wrong about Dorothy and computers. She was the one who really brought >them in and put pc's all over the place. Of course, they were older xts and >ats but that was what they had in them days. She sent Rueben off to learn how >to use them and made him somewhat insufferable in the process . . . That's strange. Ruben is the one who told me the story about D. Abbenhouse. - Ann EB From pmmkien@main.com Tue Jul 30 01:57:02 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:57:02 -0500 From: pmmkien@main.com (Paul M.M. Kieniewicz) Message-Id: <199607300150.UAA25272@main.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Putting the Mahatma Letters to the Test Alan and Paul, I appreciate your thoughts concerning my last postings. The entire train of thought was stimulated by Paul's suggestion that the ML might be subjected to textual critisicm. Well -- How about it? Caould one put out (in installments) a red letter edition of the ML, analagous to the red letter edition of the Bible put out by the Jesus seminar. One could assign each paragraph a category: RED- We can say with some certainty that a Mahatma or his Chela is the author of this part. PINK -- It might have been a Master, but could just as easily have originated from HPB. However it does sound like a Master speaking BROWN -- HPB for sure/ conscious or channeled from some inferior entity. BLACK --- Total BS. HPB must have been drunk when she wrote this one.It definitely was not a Master or Chela who wrote this. Of course - I understand the obstacles to carrying out such a plan. First -- you need a fairly unbiased group of people who are willing to lay down ground rules for such an investigation -- standards of textual critisism, and then to abide by these standards regardless of which Theosophical persuasion they come from. The toughest part might be to agree to those standards. But -- maybe it can be done. Examples of such standards would be -- can the paragraph be traced to HPB, things that were written and discussed in the late 19th century by other writers. Does the paragraph appear really at odds with what HPB might have thought or written about? This might make a paragraph appear more authentic. Let each person cast their vote. (There's the rub!) Such analysis would undoubtly tend to place a lot of material in the brown and black categories that -- could belong in the red or pink, but can't be proved to belong there. And then another problem, who would thank such people for their efforts? Adyar Theosophists? Point Loma? Sceptics? Anyone want to (or have time) for such an endeavor ? Paul K. From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Mon Jul 29 21:54:52 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:54:52 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31FD332C.38A4@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A House of Cards? (Reply to Paul K.) References: <199607291544.LAA25580@leo.vsla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > According to uscap9m9@ibmmail.com: > > > > How does one tell if there's something to be found in the > > theosophical literature, in the various metaphysical doctrines > > that are expounded? One way is an innate deja vu, a recognition > > and inner accord with what is taught. There's a sense that one > > has known these things before, and that they have the ring of > > truth to them. > > > So far, so good. I know precisely what you mean, experienced > it intensely, dreamed about the SD while reading it for the > first time, and so on. We're talking intuitive recognition > here. But what if things have the "ring of truth" not because > they are true but because they are familiar falsehoods? If I > was a Mormon in my last life, perhaps golden plates and Moroni > will set off my "deja vu" "ring of truth" in this one. Doesn't > make it a bit more true. If you had been a Mormon then your "deja vu" would not include Theosophy and you might be quite unaware ot it's existence. I only found it about 6 years ago but the "deja vu" was strong and instant at the time but we are here to evolve so now I have developed a "deja vu" for another teaching that is not known in Theosophy but I feel strongly about it so I will study it regardless of what Theosophy thinks about that. Don't forget I am president of a small Lodge and front up to the National Exec every 3 months at the meetings so if they get uncomfortable with it, if and when they find out what I am studying, then as far as I am concerned, they will have to live with it. big snip..... > But you are not entitled to tell people who don't share it that > they don't belong in the movement. > > > > Theosophy won't collapse like a house of cards, as someone finds > > a few references to science to discredit. It may sway the > > interest of a few borderline seekers, people without a strong > > draw to the philosophy, but apart from that, I see little > > happening. > > Agreed. But it's not a few references, but many, that are > problematic. And you keep describing people as "borderline" as > if you are confident that you are making an *objective > assessment*. Au contraire, when you and others of like mind > dismiss some Theosophists as "borderline" you are making a > *subjective assessment* based on *borders of your own > definition* that unfortunately becomes *self-fulfilling > prophecy.* My concern for the lack of interest in theosophy has indicated that there are 'borderline' people who are unwilling to make a commitment to any line of spiritual knowledge. They come to lectures and get very enthusiastic but only hover around the edge of our activities and then disappear for a while and then come to a lecture and so on. That is fine by us as they have not decided how and where they should begin. They may find their 'deja vu" somewhere else but at the moment they could be called 'borderline' and I care that they at least get exposed to theosophy in such a way that they can at least make an informed decision when the time come to do so. I have learned not to react emotionally to what others say and so I have control over what I do and just do it if it is right at my present level of thinking. Occasionally I lose it but I ain't got to the top of the class :-) > And if you have a strong intuitive sense that Theosophy is an > open doorway to a new realm of experience AND that much of it > is nonsensical and confusing, then what? Jump in and have > Theosophists attack you for lack of firmness in your faith? > Stay away and lose the opportunity to learn and share with > others of like interests? Not much of a choice. So what if Theosophists want to show their lack of Brotherhood. I personally just carry on regardless and ignore them and either they calm down and pretend they don't see or they get right off their trolley and I just stand there and smile and then they just peeter out. It is my choice if I want to be a Theosophist within a Lodge and study something considered outside Theosophical interests. It is also a fact of life that if I flaunt what I am doing in their faces then I give them no choice, because of their lack of Brotherhood, but to get off their trolley and feel they have to 'do' something. I ran a chanelling group for over 2 years as a private thing and I didn't tell the Lodge anything about it. One or two heard about it but because I said nothing, they also said nothing. For some who write public books and other more obvious pursuits, that cannot be ignored by the narrow-minded but again if one refuses to accept their definition of one's pursuits and quietly carries on regardless, the chances of things calming down surely would improve? There must be Theosophists who live by the Brotherhood concepts but often they are quietly going about their lives not making a big deal about anything much. It is the noisy one who seem to have problems, IMO. Wear earplugs.:-) Bee From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Mon Jul 29 05:11:19 1996 Date: 29 Jul 96 01:11:19 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Myalba - Heaven or Hell or Both and All Message-Id: <960729051118_74024.3352_BHT139-1@CompuServe.COM> In the glossary to VOICE OF THE SILENCE appears: . (35) Myalba is our earth --pertinently called "hell", and the greatest of all hells, by the esoteric school. The esoteric doctrine knows of no hell, or place of punishment, other than a man-bearing planet or earth. Avitchi is a state, and not a locality. Keith: I think this is a little discussed "doctrine" in the goody-goody neo-platonic tradition of some theosophists. Bing Escudero had a "debate" on a plane with a fundamentalists precher and had him convinced that there is no place lower than earth, because if we could imagine it we would be there! I think there is a lot of food for thought in this short glossary entry. Our man-bearing globe, designated globe D in the SD and malkuth (kingdom) in the Kabalistic tradition represent a manifested "hell". Qlippoth seems to be sort of inverse reflected Sephira or consciouness states associated a negative state of consciousness to every positive divine Sephiroth - a kind of avichi and repository for the dregs and laggards of each globe still struggling to influence evolution. The other globes and Sephira are not perfect, but more "spiritual" infused. Matter seems to be densest and most powerful in the place we share together at this minute. Suppposedly men-like entities exist on Venus, Mars and the moon, but we cannot see them because we are not in synch with them. They are in a type of parallel mode to our globe and humanity will progress to other man-bearing globes and the laggard will be left behing when the "door is closed" Avitichi is not a globe but a state of utter depravity, selfishness and separation from the Will, Love and WIsdom of the Logoi. The black magician creates his own waveless state at the opposite pole of nirvana which is portrayed more as a kind of perpetual motion machine self-contained, in perfect unitive bliss of Kether/Nirvana/Heavan. The 8th globe of Purucker doesn't appear that often in the literature, but is very provocative also. I am posting this to theos-l as I think it goes beyong the discussion of the VOS to some very dirrect concerns expressed again and again on theos-l about supposed "core teachings". Dear Eldon can we make Mylba into a heaven? In the Golden Dawn tradition, the earth, malkuth is portrayed as a kind of dusky color of olive, brown, marron and grey as a sort of mixture of the pure colors of the other Sephia in a murky turmoil. The cosmic Christ is crucified on the Auric Tree of Life. Tipereth beats with the divine energy of the sun providing a flow of waves of fluidic energy of sustanence and creative energy sometime calld kundalini or Fohat perhaps. The paths are the Ida, Pingala and Sushuma After Daath or the anatakarana is passed the goal is seen and the thousand petal lotus blooms again in our activated third eye/pineal gland as kether/heaven/nirvana, I would suggest. I don't know about you, but I getting hungry for a veggie svabahva burger about now :) Namaste Keith Price From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Mon Jul 29 16:41:07 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 12:41:07 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607291641.MAA10306@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Various points re:VOS In-Reply-To: <199607291522.AA19102@vnet.net>; from "theos-roots@vnet.net" at Jul 29, 96 11:22 am To Kim-- You seem to assume, in talking of "the" source of "the" book, that it is a unitary text of single origin. From my examination of it, fragment 1 appears to be Hindu and not very old; the meditation technique is linked to Sikh and Radhasoami doctrines that are found slightly earlier than Nanak but not much. Whereas the second two fragments are clearly of Buddhist origin. (How accurately reproduced is unknown.) I'll post the parallels of fragment 1 to RS separately. To John re Kiu-te-- It has been several years since David Reigle published his study linking this to the Tibetan Kalachakra Tantra, using etymological clues. But so far no one has found any parallel texts, and until they do Theosophists can hardly regard the question as settled. (Maybe they have been found, but not publicized.) To Keith-- I humbly suggest that when people talk about "losing it" they generally mean losing the control of the ego over the id, or the manas over the lower vehicles, etc. Since most people are not aware of any connection to something higher than the mind, they cannot be aware of "losing it." It is lost to begin with. But I like your concept. From TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 31 00:00:47 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:00:47 +0100 From: Alan Message-Id: Subject: TSA link Mime-Version: 1.0 In a post of 23rd July I stated that the TI web page had four links, one of which was to the TSA. While this link *mentions* TSA and gives a little info, it is *not* the TSA web page. For those interested, the TSA is at the following URL: http://www.theosophical.org Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From liesel@dreamscape.com Tue Jul 30 23:07:42 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:07:42 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Message-Id: <199607310014.UAA18728@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI members, an addition go to i, John, best you can. Liesel >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > >> Dear Murray, and whoever else on TI wants in on this. > >> At the moment, as I see it, we have 2 problems. >> 1.We're all sort of set on making Alan the loose coordinator, and Alan >> simply doesn't want the job. >> >> 2. Alan and John Crocker (JRC) are both planning a web site for TI. >> >> So, before we go ahead with your super suggstions, Murray, I think we ought >> to settle those 2 questions. > >At least to question 2 ... Alan and I are cooperating - `tis not two >different web sites - he arranged a site, I was starting to program a >real fancy page (-:) - but in the meantime Alan got the stuff that was on >Rudy's site (I think) and moved it - and stuff has sorta been added to >that ... but (damn! so little time! my knigdom for an extra hour every >day!) when I get time to do it I think the stuff I'm doing (with >everyone's approval) will join the stuff already at the site. > Regards ... -JRC > From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 30 04:05:16 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: Putting the Mahatma Letters to the Test In-Reply-To: <199607300150.UAA25272@main.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Paul M.M. Kieniewicz wrote: > Could one put out (in installments) a red letter edition of the ML, > analagous to the red letter edition of the Bible put out by the Jesus > seminar. One could assign each paragraph a category: > such an investigation -- standards of textual critisism, > and then to abide by these standards regardless of which Theosophical > persuasion they come from. The toughest part might be to agree to those > standards. But -- maybe it can be done. Dear Paul, This project might be of some value as a scholarly enterprise sponsored by the Department of Comparative Religion of a major research university,--but in the context of the theosophical movement, what's the good of it? If we are going to rely on the advice of our higher selves and our spiritual intuition, such issues as authenticity etc. of ML are not an issue at all. I cannot imagine myself agreeing with a learned opinion of an expert panel if it is not supported by my inner knowledge. On the other hand, if I smell a truth in a certain writing I do not need to verify the authorship--in fact I do not care about it. Of course if theosophy is going to become another religion, then it may be important to establish a body of canonical scriptures... It would be also a good idea to clarify the issue of objective vs. subjective proofs in spiritual disciplines, the Doctrine of Heart vs. the Doctrine of Heart. In particular, I am wondering if it is possible to prove anything at all in the spiritual disciplines. Is it possible that they are based on a different kind of paradigm? If so then the general tone of discussions on this email list may need to be changed. From a certain perspective, many discussions going on the list are attempts at making sense of the illusion; indirectly, it may lead to true knowledge and liberation, too, but there are more direct ways to achieve that goal. Max From JacMa@aol.com Tue Jul 30 04:40:33 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:40:33 -0400 From: JacMa@aol.com Message-Id: <960730004032_167355751@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: Theosophy Validity Check On " A House of Cards " or "The Theosophy Validity Check" The most convincing experience one can go thru is to live directly a situation and gather as many informations our capabilities allows us. I was not born when HPB wrote her masterpieces, therefore, I can rely only on words appearing on paper which, depending so many factors, I will interpret many different ways. What I understand today is fairly different from 20 years ago when I read it the first time. I had the opportunity to listen to Krishnamurti in Saanen one time, and it was a clear and straightforward understanding - a living experience like crossing the smile of someone on the walkway - it is direct experience. It is true ( for the mental aspect ) that to consecrate time and efforts to study a body of doctrine, one has to be convinced interiorely that it is worth. By the way, why worth ? Because few people want to spend a part of their life for something which could not be worth after all... Many of us (including me indeed) are looking for some type of reward, something which will warm us, comfort us - Yes, I am on a solid ground, I know (or I believe) something. Otherwise, one has to stand alone in the dark - what a bad nightmare - On this basis, let's take HPB writings ( by pure chance ). Out of the many reactions when confronted with this book, many are afraid by the sum and the complexity of the works, and switch to more "eatable", pre-digested material, and often are happy to found an answer to all their key questions on life - Great ! Finally something which will calm my anguishes, now I can continue to live - And the life continues, with its events ( branch meetings, conventions, summer schools,...). Other ones,more curious, or not happy to have an answer for each question (it is no more funny if who know everything), will start swimming thru the books, and the immense bibliography which is refered to. ANd they could discover this enormous body of doctrines which pervades the world since its utmost antiquity. If that is all HPB brought to the world, it is great, it is an immense gift, a reference book on world knowledge. Now, on the validity check, there is the mental approach ( the most common ), which could consist in checking each statement vs other body of world doctrines, but most of the time, HPB writings are references to other books. Her interpretations could be questionable ( and I still question it : in "Isis Unveiled", Vol I, p.19, she said : "His (Appolonius of Tyane) long discourses with the Brahmans, their sage advice, and the dialogue with the Corinthian Menippus would, if interpreted, gives the esoteric catechism...They would disclose, if understood, some of the most important secrets of nature". Ha, ha ! A pleasant promise. I rushed thru the "Life of Appolonius of Tyane" by Philostratus, found the right chapter, and... I probably missed the most important secrets of nature (I should have listen when I was in school - the normal education school -) Anyhow, I am not sure it is worth expressing his own feelings - (Ex : I am very deceived by this doctrine, therefore, it cannot be the good one ) - Everyone can probably make his own judgement. But it is good to communicate, and this forum is full of living beings, thanks, and the controversy has the advantage to trig interesting questions. Peace and Serenity. Jacques From saf@angel.elektra.ru Tue Jul 30 01:47:48 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:35:14 From: "Macnev Uri" Message-Id: <199607300537.AA26950@angel.elektra.ru> Subject: Karma Hello! ========================= * Forwarded by Macnev Uri * From : Kay Ziatz ========================= Subject: Karma Hello! > Now I have suggested >that karma is a whole lot more complicated than the simple >idea of rewards and punishments. Here's a good instance i found in our SU.MAGIC newsgroup ("R" doesn't believe in karma. He thinks that one could perform a magic attack and escape from consequences) : R> Here karma was compared with Newton's law. But suppose: you throw a ball R> to a wall, it reflected, of cource. Maybe even to your forhead. But R> why personally to yours? MU> No, the following explanation is more obvious: MU> You throw an adhesive ball fastened on a ribbon cord. If you didn't got MU> to target it returns to your forhead. Suppose, you didn't lose and MU> a ball reached target and glued to it. But sooner or later an adhesive MU> will dry out and free the ball. Ball flies to your forhead. MU> Those who forget about the cord got an extreme joy. They throw a ball MU> and are trying to run away. "MU" is really who posts these messages for me :) Konstantin. Address for personal replies: Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru From olcott@cedar.cic.net Tue Jul 30 07:31:24 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 03:31:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Olcott Library Subject: Re: Full Moon (to Keith) In-Reply-To: <960729121454_72723.2375_FHP50-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: >>snip > > While I was not in summer school this year, for various reasons, this is the > story I remember from last year. I was told Dorothy Abbenhouse hated computers > so much that she banned them from Olcott. When John Algeo took office as > president, they began to pop up everywhere in that wonderful old building. I > believe many are custom-made by someone that works at Olcott because it is > cheaper to build them from components rather than buy them off the shelf. How > do I know this? My husband has built four so far. > > The library is in the process of moving from the card catalog system to having > all the titles stored in a computer database, but typing all those titles is > slow and there is a staffing problem right now. > > Anyone have anything to add to this? > > -Ann E. Bermingham > > From the Olcott Library: Dorothy Abbenhouse did NOT ban computers from TS headquarters! She wasn't very good at a computer, but she did not hate them. In fact, during her presidency (1987-93), all or most offices were equipped with PCs, at least that's what I found when I became librarian in 1993. The Publishing House, Book Store, Membership, and Bookkeeping had computers before Dorothy's time. In 1987 I was part of a library advisory committee which discussed the computerization of the library. A library computer program was created ca. 1991 and ran until it broke down in March 1995. I replaced it with a new program which is compatible with those used by most other libraries. Catalog records are being obtained from OCLC, major online vendor of library catalog records and owner of the online search service "FirstSearch" which is used to access various databases including WorldCat, mentioned occasionally by K Paul Johnson. It will take another couple of years to complete the library computer catalog, but it will ultimately be accessible by direct phone line for anyone with modem access. In the meantime, watch the development of the TSA web site, which now has a functional web page that includes selected lists of books available from the Olcott Library. Elisabeth Trumpler Librarian Olcott Library & Research Center olcott@dupagels.lib.il.us http://www.theosophical.org From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Tue Jul 30 08:07:13 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:07:13 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960731021929.1b17aba0@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Full Moon (to Keith) Replying to Ann >Keith: >>And while we are on impurity, did anyone attending summer school hear >>that computers are being pushed by the Kern people, leading to Olcott >>and possibly Adyar invaded by the impurity of the organs of cyber-space, >>against the will of some our leader possibly. Maybe the 'impurity" >>will create a ferilization and release from the sterility of the past. > >While I was not in summer school this year, for various reasons, this is >the story I remember from last year. I was told Dorothy Abbenhouse hated >computers so much that she banned them from Olcott. When John Algeo took >office as president, they began to pop up everywhere in that wonderful old >building. I recall that there were quite a few computers at Olcott when I was there in mid 1989, Dorothy being the President then. One up in the secretary's office, Lynda Jo Pym (education officer) had one; there was one in the library, accounts had one, and there was at least one over at the TPH bookshop. Dorothy probably did hate them, but they were there and being used. I did some work with some of them myself for quite a while. >The library is in the process of moving from the card catalog system to >having all the titles stored in a computer database, but typing all those >titles is slow and there is a staffing problem right now. > ... Anyone have anything to add to this? The data entry phase is often the slowest and biggest piece of work in a database project. It'll be great when it's done. Contrary to the impression some of the locals might give, Jocelyn and I thoroughly enjoyed our time at Olcott and made more than a few friends whom we still often remember. We were there 3 and a half months and found it a quite remarkable centre of theosophically-inspired action and energy. The foibles? Yeah, we were aware of them but that didn't stop us loving their owners. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 12:19:55 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 08:19:55 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Full Moon (to Keith) Message-Id: <960730121955_72723.2375_FHP51-2@CompuServe.COM> Murray: >I recall that there were quite a few computers at Olcott when I was there in >mid 1989, Dorothy being the President then. . . >Dorothy probably did hate them, but they were there and being >used. I did some work with some of them myself for quite a while. As I've stated before, I heard that tidbit from another member of the staff and as usual with gossip that is passed around, I assumed more than what was there. This has taught me a lesson. I WILL NEVER REPEAT ANYTHING I HEAR FROM ANOTHER STAFF PERSON AT OLCOTT UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT! Enuff said. - Ann E. Bermingham From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 30 13:06:33 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 9:06:33 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607301306.JAA24789@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Re: Putting the Mahatma Letters to the Test In-Reply-To: <199607300150.UAA25272@main.com>; from "Paul M.M. Kieniewicz" at Jul 29, 96 10:01 pm According to Paul M.M. Kieniewicz: > > Of course - I understand the obstacles to carrying out such a plan. First -- > you need a fairly unbiased group of people who are willing to lay down > ground rules for such an investigation -- standards of textual critisism, > and then to abide by these standards regardless of which Theosophical > persuasion they come from. The toughest part might be to agree to those > standards. But -- maybe it can be done. Not any time soon, I feel sure. But a computer could do it thus bypassing all the subjective factors that would make your scenario above impossible. Of course, there the distinction is simply between "written by HPB" or "written by someone else." When you throw in the imponderable of whether or not someone else was a Master, that totally gums up the works of either a computer or a human decision. > > And then another problem, who would thank such people for their efforts? > Adyar Theosophists? Point Loma? Sceptics? No one, I fear. But it's a nice fantasy. From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 30 15:37:47 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:37:47 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960730113744_167637107@emout10.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Computers invade TSA Ann, That is very strange indeed. I remember trying to help out with the library computer when Lewis Lucas was librarian and it had word perfect and we could not figure out the damned manuals to put the book list together. Bing spent his years in exile in the second floor office working on a computer, so I wonder if Reuben fell off the boat one too many times and his kundalini is going berserk. :-) Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 30 15:40:06 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:40:06 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960730113946_167637779@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Putting the Mahatma Letters to the Test It is a very worthwhile project and it would be certain to have anyone involved in it called an agent of the DARK FORCES. Of course, since I already am an agent of the Dark Forces... But then do I have the time? Still, it is worth thinking on. Where would the funding come from? Chuck the Heretic From wichm@xs4all.nl Tue Jul 30 18:03:10 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: wichm@xs4all.nl Message-Id: <199607301803.UAA03080@magigimmix.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Reincarnation & Karma Hi Martin (Euser), You asked me for my views on karma and reincarnation. Half a century ago they were absolute Theosophic truths to me. In my youth I couldn't understand why not everyone saw the simple logic in these just laws of nature, which could explain so much. Since then I have grown wiser to the extent that I do not believe in anything anymore. Like in science I hold on to working hypotheses until a better one comes forward. We have to realise that with our "simple" brain structure we cannot behold the complete truth. There is always a truth behind a truth, as seen from another perspective/dimension. We miss the instrument yet to access it. Another matter is that we cannot comprehend concepts unless we have analogies. For instance the hermetic truth "So above, so below", could be better understood by analogy after the invention of holography in which the smallest particle reflects the whole. We often forget that our reasoning is based on a far vaster store of knowledge than the ancients. Ancient wisdom, apart from its wealth of psychological/spiritual insight, was based on speculation when it came to details. Important facts were unknown, for instance the influence of genetics on our development, and let them to unfounded conclusions. In a former contribution to this discussiongroup on 12 July, I have stated that the idea that nature renders justice by a law of KARMA seems more a wish than based on facts. One can also see it another way. Every act/thought of man ties him to a pattern of behaviour. He enters into and becomes part of a state of mind that is reflected in his behaviour. He is attracted and absorbed by a world in which such acts and desires are natural. If that person wishes to free himself of his fixation, he will find that the way back is relentlessly harsh. To start acting and thinking on another level will prove to be a heavy burden. To undo previous actions/desires will appear like a punishment and an arduous trail. But this is not a law of KARMA, it is plain psychology/behaviourism. Admittedly, interrelationships between individuals and groups give rise to ties/links that may work in mysterious ways/synchronisms, but it cannot be compared to a law of nature. In short the concept of Karma reflects the nineteenth century way of thinking that all could be explained by discovering the mechanisms of nature. The fallacy lies in the word "all". I find a similar simplicity and naivity in the concept of REINCARNATION. Without going into speculative divisions of the nature of man, we come to the first simple question: what reincarnates? However ghastly it may sound to a Theosophists' ear: man appears to be the product of his genes, education, environment, time, fate, and, may be, something else. The nature and extent of the last intangible part is open to discussion. We know how a person is handicapped when his memory function is impaired. What is left of a person stripped of all earthly attainments? Next to the identity question is that of the proliferation of the human race. The only way out of explaining the ever-increasing number of human souls is of animal souls being upgraded. True enough there are instances of children remembering vividly previous lives, be it that it is more the exception than the rule. About the validity of experiences of returning to previous lives under suggestion/hypnosis an endless debate is going on. There is another angle of approach. Living creatures tune in to similar forms of life instinctively or otherwise. We have no idea how much we ourselves are in tune with a kindred spirit(s) elsewhere in space and time. Returning to a previous incarnation may be explained by tuning in to a being whose state of mind is/was in tune with ours. Against this supposition it may be argued that seldomly 'a return' to a person still alive is being experienced. Although that may be excused by supposing that the mind flinches from such an unexpected encounter. In favour of reincarnation is nature's tendency to use already existent structures in evolution. Using the set-up of mind of a deceased person for structuring a new baby could fit into this noted property of nature. A baby's unconscious mind in development may grope for information and align itself with a mind similar to its own. The above are all reflections that come to mind when thinking of reincarnation. I have a strong feeling that we are missing in our knowledge important clues/analogies that might throw an entirely new light on this matter. That's why I advocate an open mind - a creative fission of new facts and not a dull lip-service of what people, with far less knowledge than we, came up with for an explanation in olden times, with due respect to their intelligence and spirituality. GROUP-PSYCHOLOGY. In the discussions matters of expelling unfaithful members etc. were brought up. In my opinion this is all part of group-psychology within spiritual movements, Theosophy not exempted, on which I have written a paper to be found under: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html. Your opinion will be valued. MICHAEL ROGGE From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 18:17:56 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 14:17:56 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The Uncola Message-Id: <960730181756_76400.1474_HHL63-3@CompuServe.COM> Responses to Frank: >I think that one can access the profundity of Theosophical teachings in a >meaningful, personal, noetic way without the use of rituals or crystals. This entirely depends upon what your goal or objective is. >In fact, HPB was decidedly against the use of magickal ritual, stating that it was >dangerous. So is crossing the street, but we do it to get to the other side. Why is "ritual" dangerous? Do you know a single person who does not do some kind of ritual (by any name, a ritual is a ritual is a ritual)? In the sense intended here, ritual simply implies adding movement and words to yogic meditation. Hardly a dangerous addition. >I would hardly characterize the TS teachings as "mental gymnastics", >although it is entirely possible to pervert them in this manner by arguing over >nuances as though they were dogma of some kind demanding an orthodox >recitation. The teachings are not, no. But the manner in which those teachings are generally studied is exactly mental gymnastics. Good for the human intellect and mind, but often inflating the ego in the process. >Sometimes I wonder >whether we, collectively, realize just what it is that has been entrusted to us >and what use we are to make of it. My point exactly. > my point is that there are many individuals out there who do not know >that there is any soup to be had and are merely chewing on the spoon. These are possibly the "Joe Sixpacks' that have been discussed on theos-l. There are two schools of thought here. (1) We should try to appeal to them, and (2) We should wait for them to be ready, and then they will come to us automatically. I assume that you are of the first school. Good luck. >But they would be much more nourished >if some Theosophist were to inform them that the spoon can be used >for something palatable. As long as it doesn't give them a belly ache. >Maybe they would even acquire a taste for soup. When the taste is acquired, the soup will be ready. >But there will always >(in this manvantara at least) be some who will prefer to scarf down >those greasy Mc D's and french fries or just chew the spoon. Again, this goes back to motive. If the motive is just to fill the stomach, then Mc D's is as good as any. Jerry S. Member, Ti From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 18:17:51 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 14:17:51 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Atlantis et al. Message-Id: <960730181751_76400.1474_HHL63-2@CompuServe.COM> > There appears to be a total lack of interest in any >real, open engagement with the teachings as a body of doctrine >subject to analysis, comparison, etc. This movement is >intellectually dying if not dead. > Paul, I pretty much had to do such an analysis on my own. I did a lot of comparing between Theosophy and theosophy, years ago. I found much that seems to be true, based on my study and experience. Some that is not true. And a large chunk, mostly from the SD, that simply has to be accepted on faith, or put on hold awaiting more data. But I suspect that such an analysis will have to be done on an individual basis. The result of my own analysis is that I tend to be an eclectic theosophist. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 18:17:50 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 14:17:50 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Myalba - Heaven or Hell or Both and All Message-Id: <960730181749_76400.1474_HHL63-1@CompuServe.COM> Keith, Every heaven must have its hell. Every nirvana its avitichi. If we make a heaven out of Earth (which is not possible, IMHO), then a new hell will sprout up somewhere else to compensate. We live in a dualistic world, and we can't have one pole without the other as a balance. My goal is neither heaven nor nirvana, but non-duality. Jerry S. Member, TI From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 30 18:33:49 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 14:33:49 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607301833.OAA12329@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: Reincarnation Concurring with Alan and Michael, I must say that the explanation of reincarnation in our Theosophy books once seemed very reasonable and complete to me, but no longer does. Part of the result of researching about Edgar Cayce has been to make me more skeptical about past lives, despite a very favorable impression of the readings in most other realms. It's not so much thinking "reincarnation is not true," but as Michael said, not believing anything-- only entertaining hypotheses. Skepticism isn't about disbelieving, but about *not* believing, which is different. Surely there is some truth to the idea of reincarnation; equally surely, none of our explanations of what it is and how it works are quite right. That leaves of huge area of uncertainty-- but so does most everything else in life, so we just have to embrace the ambiguity and uncertainty rather than flee from them in search of simple answers. From euser@euronet.nl Tue Jul 30 20:38:05 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:38:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607302038.WAA02459@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Ocean of Theosophy in spiritweb archive Hi, The Ocean is now available in parts (HTML) or in whole (.zip) at: http://www.spiritweb.org/OT/ Martin From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 20:39:30 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 16:39:30 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Message-Id: <960730203930_76400.1474_HHL78-1@CompuServe.COM> RI: >On the other hand, I don't believe the "movement" has a prayer anyway if it >just plans to go ~thinking~ its way into the Twenty-First Century. Neither >do I believe it will profit much from any New Age re-hashes of Old Age >developmental and magical technique. But, if we are in the 4th Round (kama) and 5th Root Race (manas), then it would seem like kama-manas approaches are in order for the 20th and 21st centuries. Whats your alternative? Intuition? We all know how flakey the intuition is. The "still small voice" within is almost always right, if we hear it. But when it conflicts with logic and reason, we generally dismiss it (and get into trouble). >No, if the Theosophical Movement is to take off again, it will only be, in my >opinion, because a ~new, simple, practical, easily practiced developmental >technique~ suddenly becomes suggested by the Psychogenetic component of the >PTP. One that is just a toenail in advance of existing meditation, >visualization, self-affirmation etc. approaches. Are you suggesting a new technique of some kind, possible with buddhi-manas intent? Will the 21st century be ready for buddhi-manas ventures? > Undoubtedly like you, Jerry >Schueler, and many others on theos-l, I have my own very "hot prospect" in >mind right at this very moment. If I can make it work without losing my toe, >I will share it sooner or later. . . . Good luck. My own "hot prospect" is now (finally) in the works too. May the better hot prospect prevail. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 20:39:40 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 16:39:40 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: reincarnation Message-Id: <960730203939_76400.1474_HHL78-2@CompuServe.COM> Some responses to Alan: >1. Life evolves "upward" from the lower kingdoms to the higher, so that >at some (undefined) point "lower" animals incarnate for the first time >as humans. According to the SD, animals incarnate as humans only during the first 3 1/2 Rounds, after which the "door" closes. This occurred millions of years ago, and no new human monads are coming into incarnation. >2. New human souls come into incarnation (ex nihilo?) Again, this is against the SD, G de P, and others. >In either scenario we are said to be on a learning path, acquiring karma >which will be worked out in future lives, of which there will be a very >large number before we reach a state whereby we will qualify to get off >the wheel of rebirth in this world. This is the exoteric view, to which I am strongly opposed. This concept lies at the very heart of maya, and is just as illusory as everything else. >Jinarajadasa's model (based upon >CWL 'clairvoyant' observations) allows for varying periods between lives >which can be small, say 20 years, but is often hundreds of years. I am unfamiliar with either of these gentlemen's models, but it sound like they differ from HPB considerably. G de P gave a general rule that we remain in bardo for 100 years for every year lived. Since the average age of a human being on earth is about 15 (which may have increased a little since G de P's time, but probably not by much) we average about 1500 years between incarnations. If you live to 50, you can expect about 5000 years in bardo. But many factors can influence this general rule, such as unfulfilled desire, and so on. >All this has been going on since (say) the "big bang." In emulation of >Coue, we could say of this model, "In every life in every way I am >getting better and better and better." This is the problem with linear models, and why I prefer a circular one. >1. In support of the long time it takes to gain "perfection" we can note >that the world population is increasing all the time, which would >confirm that sould are coming back over and over again. Actually, I think the world's population now supports those who are against reincarnation. According to the latest stats, there is currently living on earth, more people than lived throughout the entire history of earth. In other words, if you count up all of the people who have died since Adam and Eve, you won't count as many as are now living. This is a staggering number of people, and HPB's model has a hard time supporting this fact (unless we agree that Altantis and Lemuria sank with lots of folks on them). >2. Against this view, we can note that an overall expected improvement >in the spiritual, ethical, and "moral" nature of humanity has *not* >accompanied this process, which according the the theory we should >expect to have seen by now. The *evidence* suggests that the >development (spiritual or whatever) is actually getting "worse" - >certainly nastier. This is in line with HPB's statement to the effect that humanity in general is at the adolescent age. The average person is only now striving for a sense of personality and individuality that we generally find in teenagers. They are trying to "prove" themselves. But any way you cut it, our development is not linear; not for a person and not for humanity as a whole. >3. Also against this view, if new humans are appearing all the time, >*and* it takes those who are on the wheel of rebirth vast ages to get >off, there has to come a time when due to the slow progress of human >beings, there will be no room to move on the planet. The time seems to coming soon (the population is doubling every 20 years or so). I personally do not subscribe to the view that it takes vast ages to get off. I find this view to be self-defeating. > But there is other evidence. People "remember" past >lives, and there are many recorded accounts of such memories. It is absolutely impossible to tell whether such accounts are true past incarnations or whether they are tapping into the collective unconscious or reading the akashic records. I do believe that short time periods are possible--as in the case of a bodhissattva who wants to return as soon as possible to help others. His own desire can bring it about. But, like not getting enough sleep at night, the next life will find such a person tired and frail. >Insofar as I do not consider karma to be anything other than cause and >effect (I bang my thumb with a hammer, it hurts). OOB experience and >Near death experience suggest that individual "karma" - the consequences >of my own actions in this life - are dealt with and absorbed at the end >of this individual life - the "judgement." I like to think of reincarnation like sleep. What you do during the day will likely effect your dreams at night, and what you leave undone during the day will still be waiting for you the next morning. Just some simple thoughts on a very complicated subject. Jerry S. Member, TI From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Tue Jul 30 21:36:16 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:36:16 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960731154832.1b0f9438@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Uncola - and the Undeep Frank wrote: >There are certainly many other New Age type >activities that those who are not presently ready can engage in so that at >some point in the future they will be able to differentiate between >spiritual pabulum and teachings that have real substance. > >I feel that the TS should sharply distinguish itself from other groups >or systems that stress crystals, tarot, magickal rituals, and similar >practices. Notice that I do not condemn such activities; they can be >valuable in imparting a curiosity about higher forms of esotericism. > > .... Theosophy is not a cola! It appeals to >people who have an interest in psychology or philosophy and are generally >more educated than crystal wearing wiccans. It should not try to be all >things to all seekers. This should not be left unspoken, IMAO. [Then, in a later post] >If someone interested in tarot, channeling, etc. asks us about Theosophy >or the TS, I would certainly not advocate telling that person that their >present interests are inappropriate. But I would clearly state that >Theosophy requires effort, persistence, and some background if the seeker >is to get anything out of it. I would add that the effort is very amply >rewarded, although the process is not an easy one. I think that it would >be less than compassionate to give a sincere seeker the impression that >the more pop culture, mechanical methods purporting to further development >can be equated with Theosophy. > >If we want to attract to the movement persons who are capable of >assimilating these teachings, then we should not shy away from >characterizing them accurately. What we now have in effect is the >operation of Gresham's Law: debased coinage drives good coinage out of >circulation. There is so much junk out there claiming the attention of >seekers that the good stuff is gettng drowned out. OTOH, not everybody can >appreciate the good stuff; so let's gear our efforts to those who can. It is good to see discrimination being applied and its results clearly expressed, but on reading these posts, I think something else needs to be added to what has already been said. Jerry has pointed out that many of these interests are techniques, and I believe that we should face techniques squarely and use the ones that are right for us, in balance with insight, knowledge and a good heart. The fact that many have a superficial interest in these techniques does not necessarily mean the techniques are superficial. One of the most able, enthusiastic and deeply-studied members of the TS I know, told me that one of the things he was first interested in theosophy for, was black magic! Not that he wanted to do it, but he wanted to know more about how it worked. Plus a group of other "undeep" subjects. Many people may appear to be superficial in their interests, but I think it is important for TS members to see these as stepping stones in a totally non-condescending way. We have all probably had relatively superficial interests in the past, that we have moved on from. Do we intend to stop moving, ourselves, now that we have a few riches of insight and understanding within our reach? No, of course not, so let's make a point of being able to meet people where they are right now, with true warmth and interest. Then perhaps we stand a chance of being able to show them the next step along their way and, if we're lucky, be witness to their own delighted discovery that there are depths to their chosen subject they didn't dream about. That it can be a part of their pathway to the one Centre. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From euser@euronet.nl Tue Jul 30 22:31:45 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:31:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Message-Id: <199607302231.AAA17398@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Alan on reincarnation & karma Alan>The "standard" Theosophical view as I have met it is usually that offered by CWL/Jinarajadasa & Co. This goes something like either: 1. Life evolves "upward" from the lower kingdoms to the higher, so that at some (undefined) point "lower" animals incarnate for the first time as humans. 2. New human souls come into incarnation (ex nihilo?) The Theosophical view of GdeP regarding this second point is different: there is a fixed amount of human monads (after some point in the fourth Round already passed where animals cannot any longer enter the human Kingdom; the psychological distance/barrier has become to big). According to Blavatsky we (as 'animal' monads) have come from the moon, so this is not ex nihilo. She doesn't say what 'we' were before that. From such a view, certain inescapable observations emerge. 1. In support of the long time it takes to gain "perfection" we can note that the world population is increasing all the time, which would confirm that sould are coming back over and over again. 2. Against this view, we can note that an overall expected improvement in the spiritual, ethical, and "moral" nature of humanity has *not* accompanied this process, which according the the theory we should expect to have seen by now. The *evidence* suggests that the development (spiritual or whatever) is actually getting "worse" - certainly nastier. Well, I'm not too sure of that. Certainly there are many nasty things going on, but yet I see also counter-developments on a global scale as well as on a smaller scale. It could be a transitory phase humanity is currently in (let's hope for the better :) 3. Also against this view, if new humans are appearing all the time, *and* it takes those who are on the wheel of rebirth vast ages to get off, there has to come a time when due to the slow progress of human beings, there will be no room to move on the planet. Interesting view. In GdeP's view it would not be like that, however, because there's a fixed amount of human monads in each Round and at any given time only a small part of these would be incarnated (and parts of these would have a rather long rest in Devachan after that). So ... given the "conventional" view, the evidence of logic is against its accuracy. But there is other evidence. People "remember" past lives, and there are many recorded accounts of such memories. In countries such as India, where reincarnation is held to be a fact, most accounts concern the almost *immediate* reincarnation of someone, and the best documented ones show the new soul inhabiting a child in a family not far from its former abode in terms of time *and* distance. This does *not* concur with the TS teaching. TS teaching is not that rigid on reincarnation. If souls reincarnate quickly, there will be a bigger chance of that soul of remembering its last reincarnation, I think. This evidence is, however, to be taken into account. Past life recall can be achieved by hypnotic regression methods, sometimes with spectacular results. What are these spectacular results? A release of deep-rooted anxieties? Or what? I regard hypnotic regression methods as a difficult area to discuss. There have been court cases against some regression therapists who were accused of implanting false memories (notably about incest) in their clients. If I remember well some of these cases have been won by the clients. (whole families were brought into grave conflicts by this kind of therapy) I have to say that I have a great deal of reserve regarding hypnotic regression techniques. One of the hilarious things about people saying that they remember past lives is that so many of them seem to think that they've been Napoleon or Jeanne d'Arc, etc. I don't include the Indian accounts in this (I've seen something on television about that; BTW also a really impressing story of a British child who remembered some details of her past life - especially her death by an accident on a railroad- records were there to proof these details) Alan> However, dramatic though such evidence can be, there are alternative and viable alternatives. Ian Wilson, wrote a book called "Time out of Mind" which offers some of these, as does some of the work of hypnotic regression researchers. Can you give examples of viable alternatives? *I have past life memories* which could fit the TS model, but which also support the Indian evidence, as well as an alternative explanation, eg, that I can recall a past life, with all the sense of personal memory which such experiences give, BUT the life recalled is not necessarily any form of "me" at all, but the memory pf a past life belonging to the person whose life it was - I am experiencing that memory "out of time." This is the most interesting part to me: - what reincarnates (manas?) - what happens to the personality after the human being dies? (is it dissolved or is there some continuance like many spiritualists say- some spiritualists accept the principle of reincarnation but I'm never sure in their accounts as to what it is that reincarnates) - Memories of previous reincarnations: you say that you experience these 'out of time'. If your memory is out of time, is it also out of space? Do you think time is something bound to sensory input and processing, but not an intrinsic thing on itself? >Does your view imply a different notion about karma as well? Insofar as I do not consider karma to be anything other than cause and effect (I bang my thumb with a hammer, it hurts). OOB experience and Near death experience suggest that individual "karma" - the consequences of my own actions in this life - are dealt with and absorbed at the end of this individual life - the "judgement." Yes, but is karma being carried over into another manifestation? As I've said before on theos-l, karma means "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Agreed. That would imply that effects, not manifested in this life, would manifest in another life? And that these 'seeds' or tendencies remain latent in the auric egg or Field of consciousness-life-matter? >The reason that I mention spiritualists here is because you said to have >(had) certain experiences that may make you understand spiritualists better than >most (?) of us do. Perhaps. Often, if someone I know has a relative or near one who has just died, I "see" them or even "hear from" them, but only within the first few days after their decease. All my experiences in this area *confirm* the general ideas and experiences of the spiritualists. So, my reincarnation experiences are more in accord with spiritualist experiences than theosophical teaching suggests. This sounds interesting to me. Could you elaborate a bit more on that? I also asked some questions above on your view on spiritualist experiences on what happens when the soul leaves the body. It's not really clear to me whether they think that the personality dies and doesn't reincarnate or what? I have read several accounts of spiritualists about Summerland, astral spheres, mental spheres, spirit guides, etc. These accounts seem to suggest that the astral body continues for a long time to live in several spheres (and some spiritualists do teach reincarnation although it is not clear to me what exactly reincarnates in their view: astral soul/body or what?) This is a long and inevitably incomplete post, so if you want to ask me more, I suggest another time! Alan :-) Thanks for your answer, and, above are more questions :) Martin From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Jul 30 23:06:48 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:06:48 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960730190647_249088623@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Putting the Mahatma Letters to the Test The Dugpas would love it. Then they could compare the Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnet to the Dugpa Letters to Sam Sinnet (A.P.'s ne'er-do-well brother who was a thief, a professional gambler and who, in spite of the begging of the family, absolutely refused to take the temperance pledge). It's a fascinating book and one day I will have to get around to writing it. (giggle giggle giggle giggle) Chuck the Heretic From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Tue Jul 30 23:27:25 1996 Date: 30 Jul 96 19:27:25 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Reincarnation Message-Id: <960730232725_72723.2375_FHP70-2@CompuServe.COM> > Surely there is some >truth to the idea of reincarnation; equally surely, none of our >explanations of what it is and how it works are quite right. >That leaves of huge area of uncertainty-- but so does most >everything else in life, so we just have to embrace the >ambiguity and uncertainty rather than flee from them in search >of simple answers. Would life be really that interesting if we knew all the answers? The skepticism and questioning that is being expressed about reincarnation has made me think and want to keep on open mind for any new ideas. May once someone writes something down like they were carving it in a stone tablet is the day it really dies. Maybe there's always some aspect of knowledge that should have be open for expansion. - Ann E. Bermingham From jrcecon@selway.umt.edu Wed Jul 31 02:21:41 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:21:41 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Uncola - and the Undeep In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960731154832.1b0f9438@iprolink.co.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Murray ... *Exceedingly* well put (IMO) - framed into words something that has always disturbed me when I've heard words in Theosophical circles that condescendingly trash things like tarot, crystals, "psychism", "magic", channeling, etc. etc. Anyone that wishes to speak such things should (IMO) always remember that such things cannot *objectively* be assesed in a vacuum - tools and techniques themselves are merely that ... tools and techniques - the thing that *makes* them "superficial" or "deep" is nature of the hands that wield them, the expanse of the heart that may adopt them for its purposes, the immensity and discipline of the energy-system that chooses to utilize them ... and (IMO) the most important question ... the *motive* for their use. Here is a "psychic", working at a "900" bill-by-the-minute phone line, engaged in it for purely personal gain, with no intent to serve, but simply to keep people calling as often and long as possible, and barely even actually using anything psychic. A tarot reader who learned that *2500 year old system of philosophy* from reading one book, and engages in it to fulfill an interior emptiness. A channel, who goes to a seminar and begins to channel immediately for others, before even developing the ability to tell whether or not the "entity" is one of stature, or merely a sublimated ego state from within their own psyche. But over there is an HPB, using an entire toolbox full of "lower siddhis" in the service of the Theosophical movement and the work of the Adepts. There is a tarot reader who has unlocked layer after layer of that system, and uses it as an *exceedingly accurate* diagnostic tool in her theraputic practice. There a channel who has put a decade of severe discipline into purifying, refining and learning to tune her energy-system, developed the senses and insight capable of discrimminating in great detail between the enormous range of interior existances, and offering the fruits of that development to others with specific work to do that concerns particular types of those existances. While these are the extremes - the point is, how absurd it is to say that "tarot", or "psychic abilities", or "channeling" is or is not *anything* in and of itself. Such people will often aslo hold that such things are "lower" while the "higher" is the intellectual appreciation of "deep" philosophy. Yet the indentical thing holds for that. There are those in whose hands the long and "deep" study of such philosophies increases their arrogance, their condescension, and an inflated view of themselves every bit as much as any of the "lower" things they so continually seem to feel the need to affirm their superiority over ... in fact the Theosophical world may have created a brand new category: The *deeply superficial* (-:). From my own (of course completely unreliable) clairvoyant observations, there is virtually no difference at all between a narrow-minded Theosophist and that of the average Christian fundamentalist - and there are very few energy-systems that look as, well, positively *chilling*, almost firghtening, as the ones belonging to those who believe *they* understand the "true" path. It is not tools, techniques, or philosophies that travel the path. Not tools or techniques or philosophies that are "superficial" or "deep". It is *people*. And (IMO) nothing less than the consciousness of an Adept has the ability, or the right, to make a genuine assessment of what depth lurks in a particular person, to ascertain at what particular stage of development a person walking into a Lodge might be at. And if they walk into a Theosophical Lodge, and by the second meeting understand they are being, *whether overtly or not*, analyzed and assessed so as to be placed in categories like "superficial" or "borderline" or "deep" - that attitude *itself* will fundamentally alter the "interior Lodge" - and serve to both chase all but a few newcomers away, as well as create a *self-fulfilling scenerio* - in which those "deep thinkers" who believe very few are "ready" while most will not be able handle "true spiritual study" find exactly what they believe to be the truth ... a few stay around and most leave. They little see that they *themselves* have created an atmosphere that causes this to apparently be the case. Regards, -JRC From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Tue Jul 30 09:31:41 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:31:41 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960731034357.20ff6568@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: VOS origins (Kim and John Mead) Replying to Keith >Also John Mead wanted to know about the existence of the physical tablets >of the "Kiu-Ti". If anybody knows the latest on this, I would like to >know also. I have heard that they are in some library, according to Bing >Escuedero and are under another name. He asked the Dali Lama about them. >I think he saw some Buddhist monks at the library where they were at. I >am sure someone knows more. >I also assume that the inablility to produce these tablets in one of the >major reasons why Blavatsky's work is not taken seriously by academics in >archeology, philology and other disciplines, for expample. Keith, do you know about David Reigle's work with the Books of Kiu-Te and his project of trying to reassemble the Book of Dzyan? He was on theos-l early in February 1995 (yes, that far back) telling us a bit about his research. He has spent many years on this work and accumulated thousands of original texts, I believe. For a glimpse of his work, see his little booklet "The Books of Kiu-Te" published by The Wizards Bookshelf, San Diego, in 1983. He published a leaflet called "Book of Dzyan Research Report" in May 1996, from his Easter School Press at 3185 Boyd Road, Cotopaxi, CO 81223, USA. His phone number is (719) 942-4602 (from the 1995 theos-l message). There's a whole school there for the study of Sanskrit and Tibetan, to prepare students for research on the originals. By the way, I like the way you have tried to initiate discussion on The Voice of the Silence. Would join in but for pressures and priorities. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 30 14:05:21 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 10:05:21 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607301405.KAA10562@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: VOS request Since my copy of the book is temporarily misplaced, can someone repost the first section on the list? I deleted it thinking the book would be easy to find-- mistakenly. Thanks, Paul From blafoun@azstarnet.com Tue Jul 30 14:45:51 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:45:51 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@AZStarNet.com (Blavatsky Foundation) Message-Id: <199607301445.HAA10921@web.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: VOS request: To Paul Johnson: Forwarding text requested Paul, See below. I am sending you HPB's preface, Fragment I and Glossary to Fragment I. This text is verbatim with first edition of 1889. Dan=20 P.S.=20 >Since my copy of the book is temporarily misplaced, can someone >repost the first section on the list? I deleted it thinking >the book would be easy to find-- mistakenly. > >Thanks, >Paul > > FIRST SERIES. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE BEING CHOSEN FRAGMENTS FROM THE "BOOK OF THE GOLDEN PRECEPTS." _______ FOR THE DAILY USE OF LANOOS (DISCIPLES). ______ TRANSLATED AND ANNOTATOED BY "H. P. B." _______ London: THE THEOSOPHICAL PUBLISHING COMPANY, LIMITED, 7, DUKE STREET, W.C. New York: W.Q. JUDGE, 21, PARK ROW. 1889. ENTERED AT STATIONERS' HALL. All rights reserved. [v] PREFACE. THE following pages are derived from "The Book of the Golden Precepts," one of the works put into the hands of mystic students in the East. The knowledge of them is obligatory in that school, the teachings of which are accepted by many Theosophists. Therefore, as I know many of these Precepts by heart, the work of translating has been relatively an easy task for me. It is well known that, in India, the methods of psychic development differ with the Gurus (teachers or masters), not only because of their belonging to different schools of philosophy, of which there are six, but because every Guru has his own system, which he generally keeps very secret. But beyond the Himalayas the method in the Esoteric Schools does not [vi] differ, unless the Guru is simply a Lama, but little more learned than those he= teaches. The work from which I here translate forms part of the same series as that from which the "Stanzas " of the Book of Dzyan were taken, on which the Secret Doctrine is based. Together with the great mystic work called Param=E2rtha, which, the legend of N=E2g=E2rjuna tells us, was delivered to= the great Arhat by the Nagas or "Serpents" (in truth a name given to the ancient Initiates), the "Book of the Golden Precepts" claims the same origin. Yet its maxims and ideas, however noble and original, are often found under different forms in Sanskrit works, such as the Dnyaneshwari, that superb mystic treatise in which Krishna describes to Arjuna in glowing colors the condition of a fully illumined Yogi; and again in certain Upanishads. This is but natural, since most, if not all, of the greatest Arhats, the first followers of Gautama Buddha [vii] were Hindus and Aryans, not Mongolians, especially those who emigrated into Tibet. The works left by Aryasang=E2= alone are very numerous. The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblong squares; copies very often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called "contemplative" or Mah=E2y=E2na (Yogach=E2rya) schools are established. They are written= variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs. The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colours, each of which correspond to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple and seventy-four compound letters) thus forming a complete cryptographic alphabet. [viii] When the ideographs are used there is a definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and signs used in astrology, namely the twelve zodiacal animals and the seven primary colours, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the primary, and the dark - stand for the thirty-three letters of the simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled with the five elements and the seven colours, furnish a whole alphabet composed of sixty sacred letters and twelve signs. A sign placed at the beginning of the text determines whether the reader has to spell it according to the Indian mode, when every word is simply a Sanskrit adaptation, or according to the Chinese principle of reading the ideographs. The easiest way however, is that which allows the reader to use no special, or any language he likes, as the signs and symbols were, like the Arabian numerals or figures, [ix] common and international property among initiated mystics and their followers. The same peculiarity is characteristic of one of the Chinese modes of writing, which can be read with equal facility by anyone acquainted with the character: for instance, a Japanese can read it in his own language as readily as a Chinaman in his. The Book of the Golden Precepts - some of which are pre-Buddhistic while others belong to a later date - contains about ninety distinct little treatises. Of these I learnt thirty-nine by heart, years ago. To translate the rest, I should have to resort to notes scattered among a too large number of papers and memoranda collected for the last twenty years and never put in order, to make of it by any means an easy task. Nor could they be all translated and given to a world too selfish and too much attached to objects of sense to be in any way prepared to receive [x] such exalted ethics in the right spirit. For, unless a man perseveres seriously in the pursuit of self-knowledge, he will never lend a willing ear to advice of this nature. And yet such ethics fill volumes upon volumes in Eastern literature, especially in the Upanishads. "Kill out all desire of life," says Krishna to Arjuna. That desire lingers only in the body, the vehicle of the embodied Self, not in the SELF which is "eternal, indestructible, which kills not nor is it killed" (Katha Upanishad). "Kill out sensation," teaches Sutta Nip=E2t= a; "look alike on pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat." Again, "Seek shelter in the eternal alone" (ibid). "Destroy the sense of separateness," repeats Krishna under every form. "The Mind (Manas) which follows the rambling senses, makes the Soul (Buddhi) as helpless as the boat which the wind leads astray upon the waters" (Bhagavatgita II. 70). [xi] Therefore it has been thought better to make a judicious selection only from those treatises which will best suit the few real mystics in the Theosophical Society, and which are sure to answer their needs. It is only these who will appreciate these words of Krishna-Christos, the "Higher= Self": -=20 "Sages do not grieve for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be." (Bhagavatgita II. 27).=20 In this translation, I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of language and imagery which characterise the original. How far this effort has been successful, is for the reader to judge. "H. P. B." CONTENTS. __ . __ PAGE I.- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE . . . I II.- THE TWO PATHS . . . . . . 23 III.- THE SEVEN PORTALS . . . . 45 ___________________________ [All the words followed by figures within brackets are fully explained in the Glossary under corresponding figures at the end of the Book.] Dedicated to the few. [1] FRAGMENT I. _________ THESE instructions are for those ignorant of the dangers of the lower= IDDHI(1). ____________________ He who would hear the voice of Nada(2), "the Soundless Sound," and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dh=E2ran=E2(3). Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the rajah of the senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. [2]For: - When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE - the inner sound which kills the outer. Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, to come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden fire-fly. Before the soul can comprehend and may [3] remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united, just as the form to which the clay is modelled, is first united with the potter's mind. For then the soul will hear, and will remember. And then to the inner ear will speak - THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE And say: - If thy soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy soul weeps inside her castle of illusion; if thy soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER(4); know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding soul (5) lends ear; when to the roaring voice of the great illusion thy Soul responds (6); when frightened at the sight of the hot tears of pain, when deafened by the [4] cries of distress, thy soul withdraws like the shy turtle within the carapace of SELFHOOD, learn, O Disciple, of her Silent "God," thy Soul is an unworthy shrine. When waxing stronger, thy Soul glides forth from her secure retreat: and breaking loose from the protecting shrine, extends her silver thread and rushes onward: when beholding her image on the waves of Space she whispers, "This is I,"- declare, O Disciple, that thy soul is caught in the webs of delusion (7). This Earth, Disciple, is the Hall of Sorrow, wherein are set along the Path of dire probations, traps to ensnare thy EGO by the delusion called "Great Heresy" (8). This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light - that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. [5] Saith the Great Law: - "In order to become the KNOWER of ALL SELF (9) thou hast first of SELF to be the knower." To reach the knowledge of that SELF, thou hast to give up Self to Non-Self, Being to Non-Being, and then thou canst repose between the wings of the GREAT BIRD. Aye, sweet is rest between the wings of that which is not born, nor dies, but is the AUM (10) throughout eternal ages (11). Bestride the Bird of Life, if thou would'st know (12). Give up thy life, if thou would'st live (13). Three Halls, O weary pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, will bring thee through three states (14) into the fourth (15) and thence into the seven worlds (16), the worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken, and remember. [6] The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE - Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou first saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die (17). The name of Hall the second is the Hall of Learning.* {* The Hall of Probationary Learning.} In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled (18). The name of the third Hall is Wisdom, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience (19). If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the Sunlight of life. If thou would'st cross the second safely, stop not the fragrance of its stupefying blossoms to inhale. If [7] freed thou would'st be from the Karmic chains, seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions. The WISE ONES tarry not in pleasure-grounds of senses. The WISE ONES heed not the sweet-tongued voices of illusion. Seek for him who is to give thee birth (20), in the Hall of Wisdom, the Hall which lies beyond, wherein all shadows are unknown, and where the light of truth shines with unfading glory. That which is uncreate abides in thee, Disciple, as it abides in that Hall. If thou would'st reach it and blend the two, thou must divest thyself of thy dark garments of illusion. Stifle the voice of flesh, allow no image of the senses to get between its light and thine, that thus the twain may blend in one. And having learnt thine own Agnyana (21), flee from the Hall of Learning. This Hall is dangerous in its perfidious [8] beauty, is needed but for thy probation. Beware, Lanoo, lest dazzled by illusive radiance thy Soul should linger and be caught in its deceptive light. This light shines from the jewel of the Great Ensnarer, (Mara) (22). The senses it bewitches, blinds the mind, and leaves the unwary an abandoned= wreck. The moth attracted to the dazzling flame of thy night-lamp is doomed to perish in the viscid oil. The unwary Soul that fails to grapple with the mocking demon of illusion, will return to earth the slave of Mara. Behold the Hosts of Souls. Watch how they hover o'er the stormy sea of human life, and how exhausted, bleeding, broken-winged, they drop one after other on the swelling waves. Tossed by the fierce winds, chased by the gale, they drift into the eddies and disappear within the first great vortex. If through the Hall of Wisdom, thou would'st [9] reach the Vale of Bliss, Disciple, close fast thy senses against the great dire heresy of separateness that weans thee from the rest. Let not thy "Heaven-Born," merged in the sea of Maya, break from the Universal Parent (SOUL), but let the fiery power retire into the inmost chamber, the chamber of the Heart (23) and the abode of the World's Mother= (24). Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE- SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice. 'Tis only then thou canst become a "Walker of the Sky" (25) who treads the winds above the waves, whose step touches not the waters. Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD* {* The Higher SELF.} in seven manners. [10] The first is like the nightingale's sweet voice chanting a song of parting to its mate. The second comes as the sound of a silver cymbal of the Dhyanis, awakening the twinkling stars. The next is as the plaint melodious of the ocean-sprite imprisoned in its= shell. And this is followed by the chant of Vina (26). The fifth like sound of bamboo-flute shrills in thine ear. It changes next into a trumpet-blast. The last vibrates like the dull rumbling of a thunder-cloud. The seventh swallows all the other sounds. They die, and then are heard no= more. When the six (27) are slain and at the Master's [11] feet are laid, then is the pupil merged into the ONE (28), becomes that ONE and lives therein. Before that path is entered, thou must destroy thy lunar body (29), cleanse thy mind-body (30) and make clean thy heart. Eternal life's pure waters, clear and crystal, with the monsoon tempest's muddy torrents cannot mingle. Heaven's dew-drop glittering in the morn's first sun-beam within the bosom of the lotus, when dropped on earth becomes a piece of clay; behold, the pearl is now a speck of mire. Strive with thy thoughts unclean before they overpower thee. Use them as they will thee, for if thou sparest them and they take root and grow, know well, these thoughts will overpower and kill thee. Beware, Disciple, suffer not, e'en though it be their shadow, to approach. For it will grow, increase in size and power, and then this thing of darkness [12] will absorb thy being before thou hast well realized the black foul monster's presence. Before the "mystic Power" (31)* {* Kundalini, the "Serpent Power" or mystic fire.} can make of thee a god, Lanoo, thou must have gained the faculty to slay thy lunar form at will.=20 The Self of matter and the SELF of Spirit can never meet. One of the twain must disappear; there is no place for both. Ere thy Soul's mind can understand, the bud of personality must be crushed out; the worm of sense destroyed past resurrection. Thou canst not travel on the Path before thou hast become that Path itself= (32). Let thy Soul lend its ear to every cry of pain like as the lotus bares its heart to drink the morning sun. [13] Let not the fierce Sun dry one tear of pain before thyself hast wiped it from the sufferer's eye. But let each burning human tear drop on thy heart and there remain, nor ever brush it off, until the pain that caused it is removed. These tears, O thou of heart most merciful, these are the streams that irrigate the fields of charity immortal. 'Tis on such soil that grows the midnight blossom of Buddha (33) more difficult to find, more rare to view than is the flower of the Vogay tree. It is the seed of freedom from rebirth. It isolates the Arhat both from strife and lust, it leads him through the fields of Being unto the peace and bliss known only in the land of Silence and Non-Being. Kill out desire; but if thou killest it, take heed lest from the dead it should again arise. Kill love of life, but if thou slayest tanha (34), let [14] this not be for thirst of life eternal, but to replace the fleeting by the everlasting. Desire nothing. Chafe not at Karma, nor at Nature's changeless laws. But struggle only with the personal, the transitory, the evanescent, and the perishable. Help Nature and work on with her; and Nature will regard thee as one of her creators and make obeisance. And she will open wide before thee the portals of her secret chambers, lay bare before thy gaze the treasures hidden in the very depths of her pure virgin bosom. Unsullied by the hand of matter, she shows her treasures only to the eye of Spirit - the eye which never closes, the eye for which there is no veil in all her kingdoms. Then will she show thee the means and way, the first gate and the second, the third, up to the very [15] seventh. And then, the goal - beyond which lie, bathed in the sunlight of the Spirit, glories untold, unseen by any save the eye of Soul. There is but one road to the Path; at its very end alone the "Voice of the Silence" can be heard. The ladder by which the candidate ascends is formed of rungs of suffering and pain; these can be silenced only by the voice of virtue. Woe, then, to thee, Disciple, if there is one single vice thou hast not left behind. For then the ladder will give way and overthrow thee; its foot rests in the deep mire of thy sins and failings, and ere thou canst attempt to cross this wide abyss of matter thou hast to lave thy feet in Waters of Renunciation. Beware lest thou should'st set a foot still soiled upon the ladder's lowest rung. Woe unto him who dares pollutes one rung with miry feet. The foul and viscous mud will dry, become tenacious, then glue his feet unto the spot, and like a bird caught in the wily fowler's lime, he will be stayed from further progress. His vices will take shape and drag him down. His sins will [16] raise their voices like as the jackal's laugh and sob after the sun goes down; his thoughts become an army, and bear him off a captive slave.=20 Kill thy desires, Lanoo, make thy vices impotent, ere the first step is taken on the solemn journey. Strangle thy sins, and make them dumb for ever, before thou dost lift one foot to mount the ladder. Silence thy thoughts and fix thy whole attention on thy Master whom yet thou dost not see, but whom thou feelest. Merge into one sense thy senses, if thou would'st be secure against the foe. 'Tis by that sense alone which lies concealed within the hollow of thy brain, that the steep path which leadeth to thy Master may be disclosed before thy Soul's dim eyes. Long and weary is the way before thee, O Disciple. One single thought about the past that thou hast left [17] behind, will drag thee down and thou wilt have to start the climb anew.=20 Kill in thyself all memory of past experiences. Look not behind or thou art lost.=20 Do not believe that lust can ever be killed out if gratified or satiated, for this is an abomination inspired by Mara. It is by feeding vice that it expands and waxes strong, like to the worm that fattens on the blossom's= heart. The rose must re-become the bud born of its parent stem, before the parasite has eaten through its heart and drunk its life-sap. The golden tree puts forth its jewel-buds before its trunk is withered by the storm. The pupil must regain the child-state he has lost 'ere the first sound can fall upon his ear. The light from the ONE Master, the one unfading [18] golden light of Spirit, shoots its effulgent beams on the disciple from the very first. Its rays thread through the thick dark clouds of matter. Now here, now there, these rays illumine it, like sun-sparks light the earth through the thick foliage of the jungle growth. But, O Disciple, unless the flesh is passive, head cool, the soul as firm and pure as flaming diamond, the radiance will not reach the chamber [(23)](22), its sunlight will not warm the heart, nor will the mystic sounds of the Akasic heights (35) reach the ear, however eager, at the initial stage. Unless thou hearest, thou canst not see. Unless thou seest thou canst not hear. To hear and see this is the second= stage. . . . . . . . . . When the disciple sees and hears, and when he smells and tastes, eyes closed, ears shut, with mouth and nostrils stopped; when the four senses blend and [19] ready are to pass into the fifth, that of the inner touch - then into stage the fourth he hath passed on. And in the fifth, O slayer of thy thoughts, all these again have to be killed beyond reanimation (36). Withhold thy mind from all external objects, all external sights. Withhold internal images, lest on thy Soul-light a dark shadow they should cast. Thou art now in DH=C2RAN=C2 (37), the sixth stage. When thou hast passed into the seventh, O happy one, thou shalt perceive no more the sacred three (38), for thou shalt have become that three thyself. Thyself and mind, like twins upon a line, the star which is thy goal, burns overhead (39). The three that dwell in glory and in bliss ineffable, now in the world of Maya have lost their names. They have become one star, the fire that burns but scorches not, that fire which is the Upadhi (40) of the= Flame. And this, O Yogi of success, is what men call Dhy=E2na (41), the right precursor of Sam=E2dhi (42). And now thy Self is lost in SELF, thyself unto THYSELF, merged in THAT SELF from which thou first didst radiate.=20 Where is thy individuality, Lanoo, where the Lanoo himself? It is the spark lost in the fire, the drop within the ocean, the ever-present Ray become the all and the eternal radiance. And now, Lanoo, thou art the doer and the witness, the radiator and the radiation, Light in the Sound, and the Sound in the Light. Thou art acquainted with the five impediments, O blessed one. Thou art their conqueror, the Master of the sixth, deliverer of the four modes of Truth (43). The light that falls upon them shines from thyself, O thou who wast disciple but art Teacher now. [21] And of these modes of Truth: -=20 Hast thou not passed through knowledge of all misery - Truth the first?=20 Hast thou not conquered the Maras' King at Tsi, the portal of assembling - truth the second? (44). Hast thou not sin at the third gate destroyed and truth the third attained? Hast thou not entered Tau, "the Path" that leads to knowledge - the fourth truth? (45). And now, rest 'neath the Bodhi tree, which is perfection of all knowledge, for, know, thou art the Master of SAM=C2DHI - the state of faultless vision. Behold! thou hast become the light, thou hast become the Sound, thou art thy Master and thy God. Thou art THYSELF the object of thy search: the VOICE unbroken, that resounds throughout eternities, exempt from change, from sin exempt, the seven sounds in one, the VOICE OF THE SILENCE Om Tat Sat GLOSSARY TO PART I.=20 The Voice of the Silence. [73] (1). THE Pali word Iddhi, is the synonym of the Sanskrit Siddhis, or psychic faculties, the abnormal powers in man. There are two kinds of Siddhis. One group which embraces the lower, coarse, psychic and mental energies; the other is one which exacts the highest training of Spiritual powers. Says Krishna in Shrimad Bhagavat: - "He who is engaged in the performance of yoga, who has subdued his senses and who has concentrated his mind in me (Krishna), such yogis all the Siddhis stand ready to serve." (2). The "Soundless Voice," or the "Voice of the Silence." Literally perhaps this would read "Voice in the Spiritual Sound," as Nada is the equivalent word in Sanskrit, for the Sen-sar term. (3). Dh=E2ran=E2, is the intense and perfect concentration of the mind upon= some one interior object, accompanied by complete abstraction from everything pertaining to the external Universe, or the world of the senses. (4). The "great Master" is the term used by lanoos or chelas to indicate one's "Higher Self." It is the equivalent of Aval=F4kit=EAswara, and the= same as Adi-Budha [74] with the Buddhist Occultists, ATMAN the "Self" (the Higher Self) with the Brahmins, and CHRISTOS with the ancient Gnostics. (5). Soul is used here for the Human Ego or Manas, that which is referred to in our Occult Septenary division as the "Human Soul" (Vide the Secret Doctrine) in contradistinction to the Spiritual and Animal Souls.=20 (6). Maha-Maya "Great Illusion," the objective Universe. (7). Sakk=E2yaditthi "delusion" of personality. (8). Attav=E2da, the heresy of the belief in Soul or rather in the separateness of Soul or Self from the One Universal, infinite SELF. (9). The Tatwagyanee is the "knower" or discriminator of the principles in nature and in man; and Atmagyanee is the knower of ATMAN or the Universal, ONE SELF. (10). Kala Hamsa, the "Bird" or Swan (Vide No. 11). Says the Nada-Bindu-Upanishad (Rig Veda) translated by the Kumbakonam Theos. Society - "The syllable A is considered to be its (the bird Hamsa's) right wing, U, its left, M, its tail, and the Ardha-matra (half metre) is said to be its= head." (11). Eternity with the Orientals has quite another signification than it has with us. It stands generally for [75] the 100 years or "age" of Brahm=E2= , the duration of a Kalpa or a period of 4,320,000,000 years. (12). Says the same Nada-Bindu, "A Yog=EE who bestrides the Hamsa (thus contemplates on Aum) is not affected by Karmic influences or crores of= sins." (13). Give up the life of physical personality if you would live in spirit. (14). The three states of consciousness, which are Jagrat, the waking; Swapna, the dreaming; and Sushupti, the deep sleeping state. These three Yogi conditions, lead to the fourth, or - (15). The Turya , that beyond the dreamless state, the one above all, a state of high spiritual consciousness. (16). Some Sanskrit mystics locate seven planes of being, the seven spiritual lokas or worlds within the body of Kala Hamsa, the Swan out of Time and Space, convertible into the Swan in Time, when it becomes Brahm=E2 instead of Brahma (neuter). (17). The phenomenal World of Senses and of terrestrial consciousness -= only. (18). The astral region, the Psychic World of supersensuous perceptions and of deceptive sights - the world of Mediums. It is the great "Astral Serpent" of =C9liphas L=E9vi. No blossom plucked in those regions has ever yet [76]= been brought down on earth without its serpent coiled around the stem. It is the world of the Great Illusion. (19). The region of the full Spiritual Consciousness beyond which there is no longer danger for him who has reached it. (20). The Initiate who leads the disciple through the Knowledge given to him to his spiritual, or second, birth is called the Father guru or Master. (21). Agnyana is ignorance or non-wisdom the opposite of "Knowledge" gnyana. (22). Mara is in exoteric religions a demon, an Asura, but in esoteric philosophy it is personified temptation through men's vices, and translated literally means "that which kills" the Soul. It is represented as a King (of the Maras) with a crown in which shines a jewel of such lustre that it blinds those who look at it, this lustre referring of course to the fascination exercised by vice upon certain natures. (23). The inner chamber of the Heart, called in Sanskrit Brahma poori. The "fiery power" is Kundalini. (24). The "Power" and the "World-mother" are names given to Kundalini - one of the mystic "Yogi powers." It is Buddhi considered as an active instead of a passive [77] principle (which it is generally, when regarded only as the vehicle, or casket of the Supreme Spirit ATMA). It is an electro-spiritual force, a creative power which when aroused into action can as easily kill as it can create. (25). Keshara or "sky-walker" or "goer." As explained in the 6th. Adhyaya of that king of mystic works the Dhyan=E9swari - the body of the Yogi becomes= as one formed of the wind; as "a cloud from which limbs have sprouted out," after which - "he (the Yogi) beholds the things beyond the seas and stars; he hears the language of the Devas and comprehends it, and perceives what is passing in the mind of the ant." (26). Vina is an Indian stringed instrument like a lute. (27). The six principles; meaning when the lower personality is destroyed and the inner individuality is merged into and lost in the Seventh or= Spirit. (28). The disciple is one with Brahm=E2 or ATMAN. (29). The astral form produced by the Kamic principle, the Kama rupa or body of desire. (30). Manasa rupa. The first refers to the astral or personal Self; the second to the individuality or the reincarnating Ego whose consciousness on our plane or the lower Manas - has to be paralyzed. (31). Kundalini is called the "Serpentine" or annular [78] power on account of its spiral-like working or progress in the body of the ascetic developing the power in himself. It is an electric fiery occult or Fohatic power, the great pristine force, which underlies all organic and inorganic matter. (32). This "Path" is mentioned in all the Mystic Works. As Krishna says in the Dhyan=E9swari: "When this Path is beheld ... whether one sets out to the bloom of the east or to the chambers of the west, without moving, O holder of the bow, is the travelling in this road. In this path, to whatever place one would go, that place one's own self becomes." "Thou art the Path" is said to the adept guru and by the latter to the disciple, after initiation. "I am the way and the Path", says another MASTER. (33). Adeptship - the "blossom of B=F4dhisattva." (34). Tanha-- "the will to live," the fear of death and love for life, that force or energy which causes rebirths. (35). These mystic sounds or the melody heard by the ascetic at the beginning of his cycle of meditation called An=E2had-shabd by the Yogis. (36). This means that in the sixth stage of development which, in the occult system is Dh=E2ran=E2, every sense as an individual faculty has to be= "killed" (or paralyzed) on this [79] plane, passing into and merging with the Seventh sense, the most spiritual. (37). See number 3. (38). Every stage of development in Raja Yoga is symbolised by a geometrical figure. This one is the sacred Triangle and precedes Dh=E2ran=E2. The= is the sign of the high chelas, while another kind of triangle is that of high Initiates. It is the symbol "I" discoursed upon by Buddha and used by him as a symbol of the embodied form of Tath=E2gata when released from the three methods of the Prajna. Once the preliminary and lower stages passed, the disciple sees no more the but the - the abbreviation of the -, the full Septenary. Its true form is not given here, as it is almost sure to be pounced upon by some charlatans and - desecrated in its use for fraudulent purposes. (39). The star that burns overhead is "the star of initiation." The caste-mark of Saivas, or devotees of the sect of Siva, the great patron of all Yogins, is a black round spot, the symbol of the Sun now, perhaps, but that of the star of initiation, in Occultism, in days of old. (40). The basis (upadhi) of the ever unreachable "FLAME," so long as the ascetic is still in this life.=20 [80] (41). Dhy=E2na is the last stage before the final on this Earth, unless one becomes a full MAHATMA. As said already in this state the Raj Yogi is yet spiritually conscious of Self, and the working of his higher principles. One step more, and he will be on the plane beyond the Seventh (or fourth according to some schools). These, after the practice of Praty=EAhara - a preliminary training, in order to control ones mind and thoughts - count Dh=E2sena [Dh=E2rana], Dhy=E2na and Sam=E2dhi and embraces the three under= the generic name of SANNYAMA. (42). Sam=E2dhi is the state in which the ascetic loses the consciousness of every individuality including his own. He becomes - the ALL. (43). The "four modes of truth" are, in Northern Buddhism, Ku "suffering or misery;" Tu the assembling of temptations; Mu "their destructions" and Tau, the "path." The "five impediments" are the knowledge of misery, truth about human frailty, oppressive restraints, and the absolute necessity of separation from all the ties of passion and even of desires. The "Path of Salvation" - is the last one. (44). At the portal of the "asssembling" the King of the Maras the Maha Mara stands trying to blind the candidate by the radiance of his "Jewel." [81] (45). This is the fourth "Path" out of the five paths of rebirth which lead and toss all human beings into perpetual states of sorrow and joy. These "paths" are but sub-divisions of the One, the Path followed by Karma. From pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu Tue Jul 30 16:25:29 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 12:25:29 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Message-Id: <199607301625.MAA13704@leo.vsla.edu> Subject: The Voice and the Shabd Thanks, Dan, for posting the section under discussion again. Rereading it I see the answer to my own question about different origins for different texts. She says that they come from a wide range of time periods and indicates that not all are Buddhist. What is hard to follow is how, or in what sense, all these 90 texts are a "Book." AFAIK there are not compilations of sutras that are bound together as single books with a single title in Eastern religious literature. Maybe someone can cite such a case. More likely seems to me that they all happened to be together in the same place, and "Book of the Golden Precepts" is either HPB's term for the collection or else a local designation. Several clues in the first fragment place it in proximity to Surat Shabd Yoga as taught in the Radhasoami movement and its offshoots. This tradition, although Hindu, is heavily Sikh-influenced and is therefore indirectly touched by Sufism. Among these clues are the insistence that the voice is experienced in "the place between thine eyes." This is precisely what occurs in what shabd yogis call bhajan ("song"). Shabd, by the way, is synonymous with Voice in this mystical sense. Bhajan involves hearing the Audible Sound Current through blocking the ears and concentrating one's attention at the eye center (i.e. Third Eye.) When one hears the sound, one can "follow" it up through various realms, with the aid of the living Master, who meets you in the your Third Eye to help you along. Being a "Walker of the Sky" seems related to being able to "go in" in Radhasoami parlance. That is, to leave the physical realm and travel through higher domains. Second clue, then, is the recommendation that you close your eyes and block your ears in order to pass into a higher stage of "inner touch." (I don't get the part about blocking the mouth and nostrils, which would cause one to pass out.) This is also recommended in Radhasoami texts. Third clue is the teaching that the inner sound is heard in a series of different forms. People within RS tell me that the sounds given by the Voice are exactly the same as those in their initiation secrets, except that the order is different. This isn't written down anywhere in RS literature AFAIK. I have been practicing a form of this yoga for some time now, and got a physiological explanation of it from a psychologist friend. It turns out that even when you are totally still, respiration and heartbeat are enough to cause the cilia in your cochlea to vibrate. The roots of these touch the auditory nerve. Thus in complete rest and silence, one hears the sound(s) caused by this baseline stimulation of the auditory nerve. Hearing these sounds, one can "follow" them in the sense of a sensation of floating in a current. I have never used the technique to get out of the body or hunt for a Master, but simply to reach an altered state in which the body and mind seem to dissolve and one becomes part of the flow of cosmic energies. This fits in with the Edgar Cayce meditation guidelines, which advise one to raise the energy to the Third Eye and then listen for the Voice-- which in this case is called the divine voice. Bhajan is only part of the practice recommended by Radhasoami. The main part of meditation is supposed to be devoted to Simran, which is repeating silent mantras while focusing in the Third Eye. Doing Simran is supposed to prepare you for Bhajan. BTW there is some evidence of Theosophical/Radhasoami connections in the Mahatma letters and other documents, which was discovered by Dan Caldwell. Salig Ram, a major RS guru, is discussed in the MLs, which dismiss RS practices as illusory but praise the character of the movement's founder. All for now. Cheers PJ From poulsen@dk-online.dk Wed Jul 31 02:46:01 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:46:01 -200 From: Kim Poulsen Message-Id: <01BB7E79.D2914920@pp136.dk-online.dk> Subject: RE: VOS origins (Kim and John Mead) Encoding: 26 TEXT >Keith: >I look forward to this discussion as I am somewhat confused by Blavatsky's >seeming preference for yogacharya as opposed to madyamika (the middle >way). This is NOT my strong point, but what I am tempted to think is that >yogacharya is more ascetic about killing out the senses and enfolding >one's "True Self" in the atma-buddhi as opposed to the less ascetic middle >way of madymika which suggest nothing in excess even "spirituality". If we focus on the founders and leading authors of the schools - Asanga and Nagarjuna it will be clear. While Nagarjuna was a cool, negativistic, tough logician, Asanga would write about the boddhisattvas love for other beings - just as a mother for her only child. Tsong-kha-pa had a great preference for Asanga's works, and so apparently had HPB (and so do I, for that matter). In short - in a work on the highest morality, Asanga's words would fit perfectly, while it would be difficult to find anything appropriate by Nagarjuna. I will be back with some examples when I have the time, it is extremely difficult to translate, the few translators have only made a confused mish-mash of the texts. It will show clearly the yogacharya origin of the text. In friendship, Kim From mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz Wed Jul 31 10:48:07 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:48:07 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960801050023.1297e00a@iprolink.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: TI Web Site (was TI - an Addition) Michelle, Hi. Just a brief acknowledgement. Good to see you back on line too. A general thought for all:- The very willingness to contribute to a project like this is an energy that feeds the stream, whether the ideas are all realised or not. It would be good to hear from those who haven't said anything on this yet. Murray Member TI and the TS in NZ From theos@sure.net Wed Jul 31 05:21:25 1996 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:21:25 -0700 (PDT) From: James S Yungkans Message-Id: <199607310521.WAA23005@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: To Allen with Love - views on reincarnation & karma had to step in here, as the waters appear a little like the Ganges (Turbid and full of disease!) >One memory cold be a past life recall, but fits the "reincarnating >quickly" model, and is (as all similar ones are) a sepcial case - death >in battle. I was in a 1st World War aircraft, and was shot down (1918). >Reborn in 1933 with an otherwise unaccountably emotional attachment to >songs of WWI. The difficulty in this concept is that one assumes that one's "Past Life Recall" is one's real past life. If we were to assume (Ass-U-Me always in mind) that the past life is infact one of HPB's "Shells" which has simply been attracted to you by "Sympathetic Vibration", "Magnetism", or what have you..Then how can you claim it to be your own. Example: If I were to be attracted to 50's Music, Hot Rods, Malt shops, etc. (including individuals from this time period), did I die playing "Chicken" or crashing the Car to only be reborn. Example two: If I'm drawn to a detailed memory (from my own researches) of dying in WWII as a Jewish American soldier who went to war because of the Anti-Semetic acts of the Nazis. could I have been born in time for Example 1. IF BOTH ARE TRUE, THEN COULD ALL THREE BIRTHS (INCLUDING CURRENT) be Accurate? (by sheer logic, it is, however most unlikly.) it is more likely that, due to pre-programmed vibrations from Parents, Siblings, Relatives, etc..that you attract these "Shells" to you only to play back their memories as your own...Ponder on this one before getting too deep in this pit. Next time you might claim to be Edgar Allen Poe, and..... >Often, if someone I know has a relative or near one who has >just died, I "see" them or even "hear from" them, but only within the >first few days after their decease. All my experiences in this area >*confirm* the general ideas and experiences of the spiritualists. So, >my reincarnation experiences are more in accord with spiritualist >experiences than theosophical teaching suggests. These two statements are not synonimous (and are a perfect example of "Apples and Mangos.") A) during the first few days someone might be "available for comment" since they would still be undergoing their "Life Review" (per some other teachings), however this does not condone spiritualist viewpoints. As far as seeing someone dead for a longer period (Years, or Decades) you might find the materials in Collected Writings #1 of interest. HPB could materialize, at will, if she so desired (and this is documented) but she attributed the "Spirits" to the memories of the individuals present, not to the presence of the person materialized. "Shells" (Kama-Rupas) can be used by elementals, with interesting results, but that is something I think allen doesn't believe in. Not meaning to "take to scrap" anyone's viewpoints, but the following might be of interest: If we look at the insight of Mr. Bain, we find the following errors 1) the assumption that the human kingdom is not moving forward 2) that the animal kingdom is advancing faster than we are 3) that we shall be overrun by the overpopulation. If mankind was not moving forward, how would one explain the growth in psychic ability on as mass scale (which is an opening of the mind to the forces of the other realms, or "Awakening the Dreamer") The distinction between the animal kingdom and mankind is not PHYSICAL. The message that everone should think about is that "GOD #$@#" gorilla in Darwinian clothes. Humans, physically, are ANIMALS. The human aspect is the individualization from the "Group Spirit" (As defined in our teachings), or an ascent from the descent into matter, and ascent into our human monadic self. To get into details will require you to understand that you will become "Group Spirits" with your ATOMS becomming monads for future diminsions/generations/etc. Reincarnation on a massive scale can be seen as the re-birthing you experience when your cells are replaced every howmany years? If each cell is a LIFE (or incarnating ego) then perhaps you, as a Cell in the body of [Your Personal] God simply await rebirth until the body [of the personal GOD] provides the oportunity for you. Interesting thought. (Someone want to continue/rebuke this one?) Alan, don't consider this an attack. Your views appear to be very much like those from the late 1800s (spiritist all the way.) As someone who also shares your "Sight" and "Hearing", please be aware that you and I both "KNOW what were talking about." you simply have chosen to disregard the notices of others who have seen these PHENOMINAS for what they are, while I have chosen to read the guideposts left behind by others. James P.S. Angels, Devs, Devels, Dragons, and all that stuff are the things that dreams are made of...this does not deny their reality, only defines their place in this "System." Food for thought. I expect Mr. Bain's next post to be something on the order of "I only chewed in self-defence, but I never swallowed." (words of "Draco") From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 31 06:18:30 1996 Date: 31 Jul 96 02:18:30 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Myalba is Not Youralba - Hell is a Globe or State? Message-Id: <960731061829_74024.3352_BHT112-3@CompuServe.COM> Blavatsky wrote: . (35) Myalba is our earth --pertinently called "hell", and the greatest of all hells, by the esoteric school. The esoteric doctrine knows of no hell, or place of punishment, other than a man-bearing planet or earth. Avitchi is a state, and not a locality. Keith: Nobody seems to want to touch this. If earth is the lowest globe, the most dense, the most material the place of the kali yuga where the Brothers of the Shadow are at war with the Great White Lodge, then we are in a type of purgatory if nothing else. The suffering of being separated from the light and love or being connected to it is such a disrupted state of 7 bodies with their own desires - some to reach downward into matter and some seeking return to the light suggest the descent of Jesus into hell to give an opportunity for salvation one more time to those in Hell - Myalba - Earth. The Buddha was also a teacher of suffering all is suffering and vexation of the spiriir. Others say sin. Others say vanity or that it is all full of sound and fury signifying NOTHING! Is Nirvana the life wave going into pralaya (a rest between manvantaras? Is the Nirmankaya the one that renounces Heaven for Hell. Is it better to rule in Hell or suffer and serve in Myalba or jsut be blown out in Nirvana? Or are we already in all possible states as in the craked up 7up Uncola un united Unity of the One/Unmanifest manifested? Eldon are you thinking or is your silence telling me to go to Myabla! :) Namaste Keith From RIhle@aol.com Wed Jul 31 06:36:28 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 02:36:28 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960731023628_588931772@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement~ Jerry Schueler writes> > But, if we are in the 4th Round (kama) and 5th Root Race >(manas), then it would seem like kama-manas approaches are in order >for the 20th and 21st centuries. Whats your alternative? Intuition? >We all know how flakey the intuition is. The "still small voice" within >is almost always right, if we hear it. But when it conflicts with logic and >reason, we generally dismiss it (and get into trouble). > Richard Ihle writes> Yes, I agree. But you may also be able to appreciate the fact that from my perspective there is a seemingly inescapable irony when one tries to follow the reputedly "seamless garment" from Anthropogenesis into Psychogenesis as in the foregoing (e.g., juxtaposing the terms ~Rounds~ and ~kama~). You see, I remain quite convinced that both the elaborate systems of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis were the direct, analogical, creative products of perhaps a long line of advanced individuals who were first-and-foremost expert witnesses of their own states of consciousness. They were adept at following the career of the ~I am~, so to speak, not only by making use of the parallel with the famous Breath/stone/plant/animal/man/angel/god sequence which can be noticed in both in "monitored sleep" and meditation, but also by being adept seers of the "psychomaturational" seven-year pattern of unfolding "egoic opportunities" as it progresses in children, young adults etc. (The key to the latter is to take note of HPB's clue about ~midpoints~; also, if you get a chance to look at my WISDOM TEACHING someday, it will be easier to conceive--if you don't already--of just how the developmental cycles I primitively scratched out there could indeed grow into such big, detailed analogical blossoms when nurtured by ~Really Extraordinary~ individuals.) Yes, I remain convinced that the first two components of the Principal Theosophical Philosophy (PTP) are ~myths~--but only in the holiest of senses. "They are," like the approximation of what some old Roman once said, "stories which never were but contain things which always ~are~." Nonetheless, I am already on record as saying that I believe that some knowledge included in the PTP may also be actual, literal knowledge as well as metaphorical truth or mere "analogical pointer." This is especially the case for subjects like karma and reincarnation. I take seriously not only ~as above, so below~ but also "~as below, so possibly above~." You mentioned the ~4th Round and 5th Root Race~. I take these terms seriously--not only because they have valuable, ~observable~ parallels in one's own psychogentic development, but also because they may be valid, face-value "facts" in and of themselves. But how can one actually know anything at all about the Fourth Round and Fifth Root Race? Reading about them and not seeing logical contradictions etc.? No. After all the study and ratiocinating, this still remains a job only ~personal theosophy~ can do: there ~must~ be some individual development which allows one to approach the subjects with a degree of "transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception." ~A growing certainty~ about things otherwise unknowable is, in my opinion, what you should get by being a theosophist. It is not, perhaps, a dramatic- and apodictic-enough certainty to make you into a Moses followed by multitudes . . . but it is ~enough~, I think--at least in the sense that it is, after all, some sort of ~certainty~ . . . and not merely a wish or a hope or a sentiment. . . . So anyway . . . this has seemed to have turned into a long and laborious way just to remark en passant that while I agree with what you had to say about intuition being "flaky" at times, it is ironical to remember that to have ~personal authority~ when talking about Rounds and Root Races, a person must at least in part be relying on intuition or a similar type of Buddhi-manas Gate-Crasher. . . . . . .And I don't doubt for an instant that you get ~In~ from time to time, Jerry. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From 72723.2375@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 31 12:21:32 1996 Date: 31 Jul 96 08:21:32 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The Uncola - And the Undeep Message-Id: <960731122131_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM> JRC: > From my own (of course completely unreliable) clairvoyant >observations, there is virtually no difference at all between a >narrow-minded Theosophist and that of the average Christian >fundamentalist - and there are very few energy-systems that look as, >well, positively *chilling*, almost firghtening, as the ones belonging to >those who believe *they* understand the "true" path. My opinion, as well, except I hadn't gotten the words or the guts to say it on this list. Since the problem of "true pathism" is present in many systems, I would offer the idea that it is basically psychological rather than born out of spiritual truth. The individual feels a need to believe that whatever system they are following is the one true path because they are insecure. And converting others to that path gives that person an even more secure feeling. The need to be superior to others could indicate one that actually feels inferior and is trying to compensate. A relaxed, happy, non-judgemental person accepts people as they are, seeing the best and perhaps even the worst, using those observations to creat right relationships. Not a quest for power over another, but cooperation. Power struggles just lead to more wrestling matches, where the other person tries to gain back their power and it goes on and on. There's so much struggling, nothing rally gets done. Time to stop trying to get to the top of the rock. Climb down to where the rest of humanity is and get some real work done. - Ann E. Bermingham From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jul 31 16:07:01 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:07:01 -0400 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-Id: <960731120200_374122365@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation Ann, Knowing all the answers isn't the problem. I've know all the answers for years. Now I have to find the questions that go with them. Chuck the heretic From RIhle@aol.com Wed Jul 31 16:44:39 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:44:39 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960731124437_249686838@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Richard Ihle wrote>> >>No, if the Theosophical Movement is to take off again, it will only be, in my >>opinion, because a ~new, simple, practical, easily practiced developmental >>technique~ suddenly becomes suggested by the Psychogenetic component of the >>PTP. One that is just a toenail in advance of existing meditation, >>visualization, self-affirmation etc. approaches. Jerry Schueler writes> > Are you suggesting a new technique of some kind, possible with >buddhi-manas intent? Will the 21st century be ready for buddhi-manas >ventures? R.I.> Jerry, do you remember from a previous discussion that you succeeded in convincing me that visual imagery was not incompatible with Buddhi-manas consciousness? I think we are not yet completely agreed, however. The possibility may exist that you believe that in a certain sense that the image ~is~ itself the state of consciousness. However, from my perspective the image is just a potential "product" of the physical brain. An inner image may only have psychic significance when it is "shaped and informed" by the higher perception implied by Buddhi-manas consciousness; it only may have true magical signicance when it is ~volitionally~ shaped and informed by a curious kind of "intentiality" at the Buddhi-manas level of consciousness. How can Buddhi-manas consciousness "do" anything at all? Well, one has to keep in mind that much of Eastern thinking keeps insisting that ~Buddhi~ involves the faculty of "primordial discrimination" or "initial apprehension." Naming, and then verbally thinking about something (or perhaps even manipulating "inner pictorial correlatives" for the people who may do their "thinking" in a non-verbal way), involves a lower "gradient" of consciousness--the ~manas~. ~Buddhi-manas~ is the needed "operational ~upadhi~" in-between. But Buddhi-manas consciousness should probably not be thought of as such a rare thing. If it were not for its automatic ability to discriminate things for us, we would undoubtedly have a much more tedious time going through the world. We would have to first wait for manas to tell us, "This is a chair; empirical experience and logic tells us it is used for such and such. This is a table; empirical experience and logic tells us it is used for such and such." If we have an inner picture, it is Buddhi-manas which gives us the first conscious apprehension of what it is. If we are magicians, it is Buddhi-manas which gives us the first opportunity to ~will~ what it shall be. Now, critics often try to invalidate inner pictures as vehicles for any valid content by saying that psychics and mystics tend to see visual forms that are only related to their own cultural traditions. For example, St. Joan doesn't see a Hindu Mother Kali, and Ramakrishna doesn't see a Christian Archangel. I think Carl Jung's work goes a long way toward countering this. While I do not believe there are "universal pictures" which have their own independent existence floating around out there, I am quite open to the possibility that there are common "Buddhi-manas apprehensions" which would tend to recreate pictures with somewhat similar essential features again and again among the sensitives. My overall point is that I already believe that you, Jerry Schueler, have already written eight books on "Buddhi-manas ventures.". . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle (Incidentally, while my own current "hot technique prospect" would obviously have to try to involve Buddhi-manas consciousness, it is not related to visualization--I'm a Word Master. . . .) From RIhle@aol.com Wed Jul 31 19:20:56 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:20:56 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960731152055_589291492@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: reincarnation Jerry Schueler writes> >I like to think of reincarnation like sleep. What you do during >the day will likely effect your dreams at night, and what you leave undone >during the day will still be waiting for you the next morning. Richard Ihle writes> God made you write this to give everyone a perfect example of how the grand systems of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis may have come into being. Which would common observation give information about first--the circumstances associated with reincarnation or those associated with sleep? Would it stretch the imagination to believe that highly developed ~actual human beings~--rather than the beyond-normal-life-and-death demi-Gods Paul ~couldn't~ find in his book--might be able to take just your last sentence and analogize it into an elaborate myth about what happens when you die and what happens when you come back again? If somewhere down through history people forgot that "What you do during the day will likely effect your dreams at night, and what you leave undone during the day will still be waiting for you the next morning," they could just re-read the reincarnation myth and make the analogical connection to get practical information about sleep, couldn't they? The possibility always exists, of course, that the analogy has really been made between small fact and big fact rather than small fact and big myth. That determination, of course, is where personal theosophy comes into play. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 31 21:42:04 1996 Date: 31 Jul 96 17:42:04 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement~ Message-Id: <960731214203_76400.1474_HHL44-1@CompuServe.COM> >R.I.: >You see, I remain quite convinced that both the elaborate systems of >Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis were the direct, analogical, creative >products of perhaps a long line of advanced individuals who were >first-and-foremost expert witnesses of their own states of consciousness. Could be. I remain skeptical, largely because it is hard for me to believe that HPB, and only HPB, has given this out publically. Knowing human beings as I do, it seems like if such were the case, we would have heard of some confirmation from others by now. As far as I know, this teaching has only been given out publically by HPB. Humans, even Chelas and Adepts, are not normally given over to such vigorous secrecy. Schools of Adepts should have leaks, just like other human organizations. > They were adept at following the career of the ~I am~, so to speak, not only >by making use of the parallel with the famous >Breath/stone/plant/animal/man/angel/god sequence which can be noticed in both >in "monitored sleep" and meditation, but also by being adept seers of the >"psychomaturational" seven-year pattern of unfolding "egoic opportunities" as >it progresses in children, young adults etc. This is a logical fallout from "As above, so below." Where HPB really differs from others, is in her detailed (almost kama-manas) descriptions. >(The key to the latter is to take note of HPB's clue about ~midpoints~... At the midpoint, the forces change direction, and certain doors close, while others open. This is very much in line with Jung's individuation process--the first half of life we spend developing the ego as it separates from the Self, and in the second half of life we spend in assimilating the ego with the Self into a harmonious union, rather like a triumphant return (as in the Biblical prodigal son story). >Yes, I remain convinced that the first two components of the Principal >Theosophical Philosophy (PTP) are ~myths~--but only in the holiest of senses. > "They are," like the approximation of what some old Roman once said, >"stories which never were but contain things which always ~are~." Yes, myths in the psychological sense. This is exactly why we can take the genesis of the cosmos and of man, and apply this equally well to the psyche. Our psyche develops and evolves just like our body does. >Nonetheless, I am already on record as saying that I believe that some >knowledge included in the PTP may also be actual, literal knowledge as well >as metaphorical truth or mere "analogical pointer." I also believe. Unless proved otherwise, I tend to accept it all on faith. >This is especially the >case for subjects like karma and reincarnation. I take seriously not only >~as above, so below~ but also "~as below, so possibly above~." You mentioned >the ~4th Round and 5th Root Race~. I take these terms seriously--not only >because they have valuable, ~observable~ parallels in one's own psychogentic >development, but also because they may be valid, face-value "facts" in and of >themselves. Agreed. >But how can one actually know anything at all about the Fourth Round and >Fifth Root Race? Reading about them and not seeing logical contradictions >etc.? No. After all the study and ratiocinating, this still remains a job >only ~personal theosophy~ can do: there ~must~ be some individual >development which allows one to approach the subjects with a degree of >"transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception." The idea of Rounds and Root Races is very intuitive simply because we see cycles going on all around us. I think that basing it all on sevens is oversimplification, but our whole universe is based on numbers, so who knows, it could be true. When I approach this subject with the degree you mention, I intuitively feel a certain "rightness" about it. But I am sceptical of much of the details given in the SD. In other words, the general picture of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis is buddhi-manas and probably true, but the details smack of kama-manas to me, and may or may not be true. But even if some details are proven false, I still would accept the general outline of Rounds and Root Races as being true. >~A growing certainty~ about things otherwise unknowable is, in my opinion, >what you should get by being a theosophist. It is not, perhaps, a dramatic- >and apodictic-enough certainty to make you into a Moses followed by >multitudes . . . but it is ~enough~, I think--at least in the sense that it >is, after all, some sort of ~certainty~ . . . and not merely a wish or a hope >or a sentiment. . . . Your idea of growing certainty, leaving room for doubt, is a healthy approach because it hedges against ego-inflation. Certainty itself is dangerous, because life will someday pull the rug out from under you, no matter what your worldview. Nothing is certain except change. > while I agree with what you had to say about >intuition being "flaky" at times, it is ironical to remember that to have >~personal authority~ when talking about Rounds and Root Races, a >person must at least in part be relying on intuition or a similar type of >Buddhi-manas Gate-Crasher. . . . The intuition itself is never flakey, of course. Its how we hear or interpret it, and act on it, that is flakey. I hate it when I ignore that voice, going with logic and reason instead, just to be dead wrong. My problem is not in hearing it, but in acting on it in spite of what seems logical at the time. And lately I have been getting an "I told you so" whisper in my head afterward, which is very annoying. If we can develop a "Buddhi-Manas Gate Crasher" which is easy to use, we may be able to keep the TSs going for another century or so. Jerry S. Member, TI From 76400.1474@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 31 21:42:18 1996 Date: 31 Jul 96 17:42:18 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Message-Id: <960731214218_76400.1474_HHL44-2@CompuServe.COM> Some comments and responses to Richard: >R.I.> >Jerry, do you remember from a previous discussion that you succeeded in >convincing me that visual imagery was not incompatible with Buddhi-manas >consciousness? I recall my argument, but I wasn't certain how convinced you were. Buddhi-manas relates to the casual plane, which although is above the human mind (mental plane) is nevertheless below the Abyss, and thus within form. Consciousness, even in the causal plane, is subject to imagery. > The possibility may exist >that you believe that in a certain sense that the image ~is~ itself the state >of consciousness. In a sense, yes. > However, from my perspective the image is just a potential >"product" of the physical brain. You lost me. Are you saying that all images are related to the physical brain? This cannot be true, because we view images in devachan, without a brain. In fact, viewing images is just about all we do in devachan. >. An inner image may only have psychic >significance when it is "shaped and informed" by the higher perception >implied by Buddhi-manas consciousness; it only may have true magical >signicance when it is ~volitionally~ shaped and informed by a curious kind of >"intentiality" at the Buddhi-manas level of consciousness. Agreed. This is very similar to the constellation of an archetype in Jungian psychology. When you speak of "magical significance" you are talking about the True Will, which means that the shaping is done by the inner god. The archetypal level and the level of the inner god are atmic, but this does filter down through the buddhi-manas. I see buddhi-manas as a manifestation in space, time and form of the atma. >How can Buddhi-manas consciousness "do" anything at all? Well, one has to >keep in mind that much of Eastern thinking keeps insisting that ~Buddhi~ >involves the faculty of "primordial discrimination" or "initial >apprehension." Buddhi is an uphadi or vehicle or bases. When used with spirit, it is atma-buddhi, a vehicle for spiritual consciousness, or what is sometimes called the spiritual body. When used with mind, it is buddhi- manas, a vehicle for intuitive consciousness or the causal body. Eldon and others don't like all my talking about bodies, but I am coming at this from the viewpoint of experience, and when out-of-body, it seems like we have subtle bodies at these levels. The main reason for this is that we are still within duality, and have a subject-object viewpoint. The only experience that is devoid of having a body is non-duality where subject and object are experienced as one. The terms "primordial discrimination" and "initial apprehension." are apt, because at this level we are immediately beneath the Abyss and thus at the very root of all material manifestation. >But Buddhi-manas consciousness should probably not be thought of as such a >rare thing. Right. It is, in fact, so close to us, that we take it for granted. People who have buddhi-manas experiences are loath to discuss them for fear of condemnation. Having an inner voice tell you something that saves your life, for example, smacks of insanity to most people, and so nothing is said about it. As people come out of the closet, so to speak, such things will be understood to be pretty normal. >If we have an inner picture, it is Buddhi-manas which gives us the first >conscious apprehension of what it is. If we are magicians, it is >Buddhi-manas which gives us the first opportunity to ~will~ what it shall be. Buddhi-manas pictures are general ones. For example, the general idea of "chair" is buddhi-manas. The various types and sizes of chairs are at the manas and kama-manas level. In Jungian terms, they are symbols, the language of the archetypes, which Jung carefully distinguishes from signs--normal detailed pictures that we can cognitively comprehend. We cannot fully comprehend a symbol, and the more we look at it, the more we get out of it (we interpret symbols through signs). >Now, critics often try to invalidate inner pictures as vehicles for any valid >content by saying that psychics and mystics tend to see visual forms that are >only related to their own cultural traditions. For example, St. Joan doesn't >see a Hindu Mother Kali, and Ramakrishna doesn't see a Christian Archangel. > I think Carl Jung's work goes a long way toward countering this. Right. Signs are cultural, but symbols are universal. We always speak and communicate in terms of signs, which we can understand. We can experience a symbol, but can never communicate that symbol to others without breaking it up into signs. This is exactly what is meant by esoteric (can't be put into words) and exoteric (can be put into words). Symbols are esoteric, while signs are exoteric. > While I do >not believe there are "universal pictures" which have their own independent >existence floating around out there, I am quite open to the possibility that >there are common "Buddhi-manas apprehensions" which would tend to recreate >pictures with somewhat similar essential features again and again among the >sensitives. The whole tradition of occultism and mysticism teaches the essential and inherent oneness of all things. Thus the idea of a collective unconscious is a bridge between psychology and the occult. The Abyss is itself a symbol, and while we can think of it in many ways, we will never fully be able to come to grips with it. The East uses the analogy of a wave rising up from the ocean in the same way as our personality or ego rises up from the unconscious. Buddhi-manas lies at the interface between the wave and the ocean. It is at the dividing line between the personal and collective unconscious and partakes of both. >My overall point is that I already believe that you, Jerry Schueler, have >already written eight books on "Buddhi-manas ventures.". . . Thanks. But I doubt that these will benefit the Theosophical Movement. The one I was referring to, is more theosophical. Jerry S. Member, TI From bbrown@whanganui.ac.nz Wed Jul 31 20:03:40 1996 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:03:40 +1300 From: Bee Brown Message-Id: <31FFBC1C.664B@whanganui.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: reincarnation References: <960731152055_589291492@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RIhle@aol.com wrote: > > Jerry Schueler writes> > >I like to think of reincarnation like sleep. What you do during > >the day will likely effect your dreams at night, and what you leave undone > >during the day will still be waiting for you the next morning. > > Richard Ihle writes> > God made you write this to give everyone a perfect example of how the grand > systems of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis may have come into being. > > Which would common observation give information about first--the > circumstances associated with reincarnation or those associated with sleep? Bee here, I thought this little excerpt from the writings of Vitvan might be interesting as a thought on reincarnation. Somewhere that I can't just locate, he illustrates reincarnation by using the tree as a way of seeing it. The tree dies back but the stream of life is dormant there and returns in spring to grow leaves, flowers and friut and then dies back for another winter. He suggests that we should avoid thinking of the personality as returning again, rather a new configuration is assembled along the previous lines of force laid down. "The Natural Order Process" by Vitvan We had a pet dog by the name of Pat. Pat died, and someone asked if the dog, Pat, would reincarnate. The answer to this question will serve as further instruction in the fundamental comprising our foundation work in this course and, in this lesson, describe the states of consciousness represented by the lowest rungs on the ladder on our diagram. (See next page.) Imagine a pond of water out of which a cup of water is dipped. Let the pond of water represent the animal group-field. When Pat died it was as though a cup of water which had been dipped from the pond of water was returned to it again. We loved our little god Pat; he became part of our family life; and in Pat's sojourn with us he did his share of growing, developing, and expanding his little dog-consciousness. So, when his cup of water was returned to its pond of Mother-substance, it was as though that cup was more colored in energy-quality than when it was first dipped out; and the coloring of Pat's cupful changed the energy-quality of the whole pond, even though the change was ever so slight. This dipping out and pouring back describes the relation of a given animal to its group-field. A given animal cannot function independently of its group-field. Finally there comes a point in expanding consciousness when a given cupful is not poured back into the general group-field pond. This phase characterizing the process of individualization is noted with respect to four families of the animal kingdom; namely, Equidae, Elephantidae, Canidae and Felidae (horse, elephant, dog and cat). Relative to the whole process this point is an important one. On our ladder diagram we mark it with a lamp to symbolize mind, which indicates the beginning of individualization from the animal group-field. The chief observation respecting this rung of the ladder wherein beginning individualization takes place might be summarized as follows: the animal knows but does not know that it knows; a man knows and knows (or can know) that he knows. > The possibility always exists, of course, that the analogy has really been > made between small fact and big fact rather than small fact and big myth. > That determination, of course, is where personal theosophy comes into play. > . . . > > Godspeed, > > Richard Ihle From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 31 22:15:40 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: What's next in the movement~ In-Reply-To: <960731214203_76400.1474_HHL44-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >You see, I remain quite convinced that both the elaborate systems of > >Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis were the direct, analogical, creative > >products of perhaps a long line of advanced individuals who were > >first-and-foremost expert witnesses of their own states of consciousness. > Could be. I remain skeptical, largely because it is hard for > me to believe that HPB, and only HPB, has given this out publically. How about some publications of the Temple of the People, like Theogenesis and Teachings of the Temple? From mosinovs@library.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 31 22:26:45 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:26:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Osinovsky Subject: Re: What's next in the movement In-Reply-To: <960731214218_76400.1474_HHL44-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > Buddhi-manas relates to the casual plane, which although is above the human > mind (mental plane) is nevertheless below the Abyss, and thus within form. > Consciousness, even in the causal plane, is subject to imagery. Does not seem to be true. The borderline between the rupa and the arupa is somewhere in the middle of mental plane, so even manas (higher subplanes of the mental) is in the arupa, not to speak about buddhi. From jmeier@microfone.net Wed Jul 31 20:16:51 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 20:16:51 -0400 From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Message-Id: <199608010016.AA24214@vnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Bailey Material on WWW Adressing the earlier request for Web sites of Alice A. Bailey material, Ann Bermingham wrote, >While it is true that the Bailey organization does not (as yet) have an official >web page, there are links to Bailey material at this URL: >http://www2.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/networks-theosophy.html Max added that the Lucis Trust is way behind in setting up Net access... Which is true enough. While the LT itself does not appear on the Web, one of the associated groups, World Goodwill, does have a site at www.oneworld.org/worldgoodwill/ World Goodwill is an NGO (Non-Governmental Organization) associated with the United Nations. Oneworld.org is a group of many non-profit organizations (Amnesty International to Zaire) and it's well worth checking out; charities, non-profits, alternative news, etc. The Lucis Trust itself is a bit behind regarding electronic media, but there is a project "in the works" to put the AAB books onto CD-ROM. The timetable for this is a bit vague, since their emphasis just now is re-issueing the VHS series on monthly meditations with an astrological emphasis. The series should be complete sometime this fall; I've seen the May (Wesak) video and it is very nice, incorporating some of Albert Falzon's magnificent footage of the Himalayas. Web access to AAB material now is limited to sites that draw from the AAB writings without direct affiliation. Any web browser can pull up quite a few, and while some of them are only peripherally linked to the Tibetan's ideas at all, some of them are quite interesting and many of them have links of their own (the White Mountain page contains links to the Roerich museum, for example). Some pages that a recent search turned up include www.oneworld.org/worldgoodwill/ www.primenet.com/~wtmtn/index.html (White Mountain) users.aol.com/psychosoph/esopsych.html emporium.turnpike.net/N/ngws/ 207.67.198.22/A/arcanaws/ www.meditation.com www,abwam.com/nalybi/MetaphysicsOccult/html globe.com.ph/~unicorn/homepage.html and one of my favorites is David's Occult links at www2.utep.edu/~dgreiner/occult/htm -- it's really hard to find something specific from here, but the search always turns up lots of interesting stuff. Jim From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 31 23:03:23 1996 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 00:03:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: The Uncola - And the Undeep In-Reply-To: <960731122131_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <960731122131_72723.2375_FHP55-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes >A relaxed, happy, non-judgemental person accepts people as they are, seeing the >best and perhaps even the worst, using those observations to creat right >relationships. Not a quest for power over another, but cooperation. You just kind of set out my hopes for TI ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 1 00:11:52 1996 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:11:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Alan on reincarnation & karma In-Reply-To: <199607302231.AAA17398@mail.euronet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607302231.AAA17398@mail.euronet.nl>, Martin_Euser writes >According to Blavatsky >we (as 'animal' monads) have come from the moon, so this is not ex nihilo. >She doesn't say what 'we' were before that. I guess we can take it or leave it - the moon bit. Personally I leave it. > >The *evidence* suggests that the >development (spiritual or whatever) is actually getting "worse" - >certainly nastier. > > Well, I'm not too sure of that. Certainly there are many nasty >things going on, but yet I see also counter-developments on a global scale >as well as on a smaller scale. It could be a transitory phase humanity >is currently in (let's hope for the better :) There have always been counter=developments, don't you think? Just as there have always been "wars, and rumors of wars"? [Jesus in Matthew's Gospel]. > >Past life recall can be achieved by hypnotic regression methods, >sometimes with spectacular results. > > What are these spectacular results? You mention one yourself, but I have noticed, in reading accounts of hypnotic regression as reported by hypnotists and researchers, that the results can clearly be affected by the views held by the hypnotist, so that as a method it is unreliable. The best "evidence" is that which comes unbidden and can be validated *afterwards*. >Alan> However, dramatic though such >evidence can be, there are alternative and viable alternatives. Ian >Wilson, wrote a book called "Time out of Mind" which offers some of >these, as does some of the work of hypnotic regression researchers. > > Can you give examples of viable alternatives? OK. In this book, there is an account of a subject who gave accurate details about a number of things in the "past life" and which included a picture of a complicated diagram (in color) of an esoteric nature in a language the subject did not know. The hypnotist conducting the research was not seeking to "prove" or "disprove" past life recall (whether reincarnation was implied or not) and so sought further verification from the same subject, taking a different approach. In short, under hypnosis, the same subject was asked if she had seen this diagram in this life, and if so where. It came to light that she had - in a book which was being perused by another person next to her in a library reading room. With more questioning, the source was actually found in the book concerned. > >*I have past life memories* which could fit the TS model, but which also >support the Indian evidence, as well as an alternative explanation, eg, >that I can recall a past life, with all the sense of personal memory >which such experiences give, BUT the life recalled is not necessarily >any form of "me" at all, but the memory pf a past life belonging to the >person whose life it was - I am experiencing that memory "out of time." > > This is the most interesting part to me: > > - what reincarnates (manas?) In this terminology, I cannot say, except that certainly not manas! Buddhi? 50/50 on that. A piece of atma perhaps :-) > > - what happens to the personality after the human being dies? > (is it dissolved or is there some continuance like many spiritualists say- I think this is likely - my experience suggests it is probable, but how to confirm it? Can't be done by "earth" standards. > > - Memories of previous reincarnations: you say that you experience these > 'out of time'. If your memory is out of time, is it also out > of space? Do you think time is something bound to sensory input and > processing, but not an intrinsic thing on itself? > Yes. Time is a measurement of movement in space, that's all. > >Insofar as I do not consider karma to be anything other than cause and >effect (I bang my thumb with a hammer, it hurts). OOB experience and >Near death experience suggest that individual "karma" - the consequences >of my own actions in this life - are dealt with and absorbed at the end >of this individual life - the "judgement." > > Yes, but is karma being carried over into another manifestation? I don't think so, no. > >As I've said before on theos-l, karma means "There ain't no such thing >as a free lunch." > > Agreed. That would imply that effects, not manifested in this life, >would manifest in another life? I think you pay at the checkout. > And that these 'seeds' or tendencies remain >latent in the auric egg or Field of consciousness-life-matter? > No. >Could you elaborate a bit more >on that? I also asked some questions above on your view on spiritualist >experiences on what happens when the soul leaves the body. It's not really >clear to me whether they think that the personality dies and doesn't reincarnate >or what? Nor me, but I do think that the personality dies and doesn't reincarnate. > I have read several accounts of spiritualists about Summerland, >astral spheres, mental spheres, spirit guides, etc. These accounts seem to >suggest that the astral body continues for a long time to live in several >spheres (and some spiritualists do teach reincarnation although it is not clear >to me what exactly reincarnates in their view: astral soul/body or what?) Not to put too fine a point on it, I think they are glamourising their findings. One question here is what do you understand by "astral body?" > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 31 23:37:08 1996 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 00:37:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: Borderlines In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 In message , Maxim Osinovsky writes > > >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Jerry Schueler wrote: > >> Buddhi-manas relates to the casual plane, which although is above the human >> mind (mental plane) is nevertheless below the Abyss, and thus within form. >> Consciousness, even in the causal plane, is subject to imagery. > >Does not seem to be true. The borderline between the rupa and the arupa >is somewhere in the middle of mental plane, so even manas (higher >subplanes of the mental) is in the arupa, not to speak about buddhi. As Jerry is using Kabbalist (or Qabalist) terminology, I am jumping in here to kind of agree with Maxim (I think). In the full system of the Kabbalist "Jacob's Ladder" the "causal plane" would relate to the Briatic world. That which is subject to imagery would be present in the lower half of Briah, which "overlaps" the upper part of Yetzirah ("higher astral") but the upper part of Briah cannot contain any kind of imagery. The "Abyss" symbolism belongs to the "single tree" version promulgated by the Golden Dawn, but disappears when the fuller version is known and used. There would be a kind of "borderline," to use Maxim's term, at Tiphareth in Briah. > Sorry folks for the technical stuff, but I do have to read a lot of Indian and sanskrit terminology - why shouldn't you suffer a bit as well :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 31 23:26:47 1996 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 00:26:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Message-Id: Subject: To James with Huh? In-Reply-To: <199607310521.WAA23005@sure.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In message <199607310521.WAA23005@sure.net>, James S Yungkans writes >had to step in here, as the waters appear a little like the Ganges (Turbid >and full of disease!) .. a very unfriendly comment. > >>One memory cold be a past life recall, but fits the "reincarnating >>quickly" model, and is (as all similar ones are) a sepcial case - death >>in battle. I was in a 1st World War aircraft, and was shot down (1918). >>Reborn in 1933 with an otherwise unaccountably emotional attachment to >>songs of WWI. > >The difficulty in this concept is that one assumes that one's "Past Life >Recall" is one's real past life. In spite of the typo, please note I said (or meant to say :-)) *could* be a past life recall. > If we were to assume (Ass-U-Me always in >mind) that the past life is infact one of HPB's "Shells" which has simply >been attracted to you by "Sympathetic Vibration", "Magnetism", or what have >you..Then how can you claim it to be your own. Why "assume" anything? > Example: If I were to be >attracted to 50's Music, Hot Rods, Malt shops, etc. (including individuals >from this time period), did I die playing "Chicken" or crashing the Car to >only be reborn. Example two: If I'm drawn to a detailed memory (from my >own researches) of dying in WWII as a Jewish American soldier who went to >war because of the Anti-Semetic acts of the Nazis. could I have been born in >time for Example 1. IF BOTH ARE TRUE, THEN COULD ALL THREE BIRTHS >(INCLUDING CURRENT) be Accurate? (by sheer logic, it is, however most >unlikly.) it is more likely that, due to pre-programmed vibrations from >Parents, Siblings, Relatives, etc..that you attract these "Shells" to you >only to play back their memories as your own...Ponder on this one before >getting too deep in this pit. Next time you might claim to be Edgar Allen >Poe, and..... Given your example, you are right, but who is getting into any pit? There are a great many assumptions in your own post here! > >>Often, if someone I know has a relative or near one who has >>just died, I "see" them or even "hear from" them, but only within the >>first few days after their decease. All my experiences in this area >>*confirm* the general ideas and experiences of the spiritualists. So, >>my reincarnation experiences are more in accord with spiritualist >>experiences than theosophical teaching suggests. > >These two statements are not synonimous (and are a perfect example of >"Apples and Mangos.") A) during the first few days someone might be >"available for comment" since they would still be undergoing their "Life >Review" (per some other teachings), however this does not condone >spiritualist viewpoints. As far as seeing someone dead for a longer period >(Years, or Decades) you might find the materials in Collected Writings #1 of >interest. HPB could materialize, at will, if she so desired (and this is >documented) but she attributed the "Spirits" to the memories of the >individuals present, not to the presence of the person materialized. >"Shells" (Kama-Rupas) can be used by elementals, with interesting results, >but that is something I think allen doesn't believe in. Correct, ALAN doesn't. My WWI experience is documented, and contains many elements I could not have possibly known beforehand, but which were verified by research after the experience. So although it *could* have been a "quick return" reincarnation, it does not follow that it was. > >Not meaning to "take to scrap" anyone's viewpoints, but the following might >be of interest: > >If we look at the insight of Mr. Bain, we find the following errors >1) the assumption that the human kingdom is not moving forward I made no such assumption - I simply pointed to evidence that does not support such a moving forward - but as none of us can have *all* of the facts, assumptions are out all round. >2) that the animal kingdom is advancing faster than we are This is ridiculous - how on earth do you deduce such an assumption from my post? >3) that we shall be overrun by the overpopulation. That, given a particular model, this would be a logical consequence. I did not make an assumption about this. > >If mankind was not moving forward, how would one explain the growth in >psychic ability on as mass scale (which is an opening of the mind to the >forces of the other realms, or "Awakening the Dreamer") Could you provide evidence to support this assertion? I for one do not see any. > >The distinction between the animal kingdom and mankind is not PHYSICAL. The >message that everone should think about is that "GOD #$@#" gorilla in >Darwinian clothes. Humans, physically, are ANIMALS. The human aspect is >the individualization from the "Group Spirit" (As defined in our teachings), >or an ascent from the descent into matter, and ascent into our human monadic >self. To get into details will require you to understand that you will >become "Group Spirits" with your ATOMS becomming monads for future >diminsions/generations/etc. Reincarnation on a massive scale can be seen as >the re-birthing you experience when your cells are replaced every howmany >years? If each cell is a LIFE (or incarnating ego) then perhaps you, as a >Cell in the body of [Your Personal] God simply await rebirth until the body >[of the personal GOD] provides the oportunity for you. Interesting thought. >(Someone want to continue/rebuke this one?) "As defined in our teachings" does not tell me who the "we" of "our" are. Most of the above does not resonate with me, or is expressed in a manner I cannot follow. > >Alan, don't consider this an attack. Your views appear to be very much like >those from the late 1800s (spiritist all the way.) As someone who also >shares your "Sight" and "Hearing", please be aware that you and I both "KNOW >what were talking about." you simply have chosen to disregard the notices >of others who have seen these PHENOMINAS for what they are, while I have >chosen to read the guideposts left behind by others. While I am only to happy not to consider your post as an attack, and I am certain you do not intend one, to tell me what I have chosen or not chosen to disregard is a kind of arrogance I deplore. > > James > >P.S. Angels, Devs, Devels, Dragons, and all that stuff are the things that >dreams are made of...this does not deny their reality, only defines their >place in this "System." Food for thought. I expect Mr. Bain's next post to >be something on the order of "I only chewed in self-defence, but I never >swallowed." (words of "Draco") I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What I said in my previous post was only a very small comment on a few experiences relating to the subjects Martin asked me about. It cannot possibly, in a forum like this, be regarded as a cohesive statement of belief. Bits and pieces from a scrapbook, perhaps. And BTW, do not consider this post as an attack - I just can't fathom where you are coming from or what you are trying to say. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://WWW1.Minn.Net/~vlg/TI.html (Note figure "one" after WWW) From RIhle@aol.com Thu Aug 1 00:45:19 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 20:45:19 -0400 From: RIhle@aol.com Message-Id: <960731204519_250050179@emout12.mail.aol.com> Subject: Re: What's next in the movement Richard Ihle writes>> >> The possibility may exist >>that you believe that in a certain sense that the image ~is~ itself the >>state of consciousness. Jerry Schueler writes> >in a sense, yes. R.I.> >> However, from my perspective the image is just a potential >>"product" of the physical brain. J.S> You lost me. Are you saying that all images are related >to the physical brain? This cannot be true, because we view >images in devachan, without a brain. In fact, viewing images >is just about all we do in devachan. R.I.> I'm afraid you get to trump me in this little side thread--since I do not yet have enough inner certainty about the "devachan" to even say that it exists, much less to say anything about what one is able to view or not view there without a brain. Perhaps we have been talking about different things, anyway. Let's say you were hungry and formed an inner picture of a bowl of ice cream: you looked at it in your mind's eye and wanted it exactly as pictured--nuts, chocolate sauce, etc. Would you be in kama consciousness? Probably yes. Would the image itself ~be~ the state of consciousness? Well, I suppose in a certain sense you could think of it that way if you wanted to. However, what about if you were sated, just having finished eating five gallons of the stuff, and then formed the same image? What "state of consciousness" would the image be now? Wouldn't it just be a neutral "epi-phenomenon" or just plain "phenomenon" produced by the physical brain? No, if it were not for the devachan trump card, I would stick to my guns and say that inner images do not exist independent of, and are not able to be perceived in the absence of, the physical brain and that particular states of consciousness are not necessarily associated with any "quality" or "content" of image. (Also, it is hard for me to think that Platonic archetypes--e.g., the "general picture" of a chair--really qualify as "images" since they do not have the "particularity" necessary to "view" them in any way. On second thought . . . perhaps that is the basis for our seeming disagreement: ~viewing~ images vs. ~holding~ archetypes. Who knows?) Yes, I might even stick to my guns to the extent of admitting that in some ways I am not usympathetic with Rudolph Steiner's position that only the lower order of mystic is communicated with by means of visual forms, while the higher mystic apprehends Reality without any symbolic disguises whatever. . . . But for now, I turn in my guns and thank you, as always, for reading. Godspeed, Richard Ihle From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Aug 1 09:50:45 1996 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 02:50:45 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960801095045.0069748c@mail.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Elitism or Esotericism Paul J: >> The only problem is when a T.S. fills up with people with no interest in >> esotericism, but are rather inclined to reject it as "pompous elitism", and >> under the freedom of belief in a T.S. advocate an "anything goes" style of >> belief. Then Theosophy, as a body of occult doctrines and specific spiritual >> practices ends up going underground in the very organizations that were >> founded to promote it. >"The only problem" huh? Eldon, this is an extreme example of >what I was talking about a couple of weeks ago: the tendency of >you "true believer" types to concentrate *all* the blame >for *everything* wrong with the movement on those *you* consider >"lukewarm" and deserving of repetitious condemnation. I was responding to a posting where our need to distinguish what we have to offer from the New Age stuff was made. My response was to state that the "uncola" aspect of the theosophical movement is in a spiritual path offered: a religious philosophy based upon certain occult doctrines. What distinguishes us from other groups is, I'd say, the doctrines and what is behind them. We are not distinguished in any other way. Brotherhood, comparative studies, and paranormal investigations are to be found in a multitude of groups. >You don't come >right out and say it, but you might as well: "Thank God I am >not like other people; if everyone were like me there would be >*no problems* in the Theosophical movement." I'm not judging people. Are you? I'm not the only one to express a concern about Theosophy being watered down over the generations, but actually disfigured and lost at times. >If you can't get over that >attitude, can you at least stop expressing it so shamelessly? >It's a very untheosophical attitude. My concern is with the "anti" attitude, as I find it, where people are simply unwilling to allow others to study and promote the doctrines, and make of it a spiritual path. Statement that there might be such a thing often elicit anger, as some people feel offended when someone says "there's something special here" when they personally find no such thing. >Your words reek with contempt for your fellow Theosophists. No >interest in esotericism? Get real! We must have quite radically different experiences of members of the T.S.'s. You seem to universally rate them highly, despite all the T.S. bashing that went on earlier this year. I don't rate them at all -- neither good nor bad -- but observe that a majority seem ready to believe almost anything and to be finding the whole experience of being in a T.S. like joining a club. This is radically different than a real spiritual practice, which I'll again say *can* be found with Theosophy. >Just no interest in the >version thereof propagated by the ES and its various formal and >informal heirs. I'm not sure what the E.S. promotes, but I'm talking about something real, not something based upon fantasy or wishful thinking. >Everyone I know in any TS is strongly interested in esotericism! Huh? That's certainly different than my understanding. When I'd speak of someone "being on the Path" or someone being engaged in a genuine spiritual process, I'm describing a distinct, discrete, unique event that has happened in someone's life. One important goal of Theosophy is to awaken as many people as possible, in addition to uplifting the thought life in the west. This can be approached in many different ways, and western Theosophy is only one of many options to approach it. But when you say that everything in the T.S. is interested in esotericism, I'm left a bit puzzled. If you water down everything regarding the spiritual to the point of mediocrity, where everyone that walks by on the street qualifies, you obscure and drive underground any real knowledge of the subject. >The majority are not at all >interested in *dogmatism* and *elitism* both of which keep >getting crammed down our throats by the true believers that control >everything in the movement. This may be true in some quarters. But every time someone cries "dogmatism!" or "elitism!" it isn't necessary true. There are two important points here. First, as one of many possible approaches to the spiritual, a theosophical organization is entitled to follow its own agenda and carry out its own specialization. It would be inappropriate for a cooking class to be taken over by people wanting to do basket weaving, there are basket weaving classes. This is not in denial or suppression of other approaches, just simple common sense. Second, when a genuine spiritual approach is taught, e.g. esotericism, there are many that it may not appeal to. Some are drawn to other approaches. Others do not yet feel a calling to the spiritual. It is not judgemental to say that some people are drawn to it and others are not. It is disrespectful to deny, mock, and charge with egotism and pride those that follow a particular path. It is not appropriate to say: "I find nothing in that stuff, and you say there's something there, so therefore you're an arrogant, condescending, elitist, true-believer." >Forced to go underground in every organization? That's absolutely >preposterous. Show me a single instance in which either the ULT or the >Pasadena TS has forced members focused on "core" doctrines and >practices to go underground. As far as the doctrines, Jerry Hejka-Ekins could outline the history of their evolution and digression since Blavatsky's days. The ULT and Pasadena TS are in less danger of losing their philosophical foundation, but the danger is real in any organization, regardless of belief, if it is overrun with people of contrary beliefs and ideas. The original ideas are left behind and potentially lost to the world. >Show me a single instance in >which the Adyar TS has deviated in recent years from the path >of steadily increasing insistence on the authority of the core >doctrines, and steadily increasing pressure to expel or make >unwelcome those who do not agree with that tendency. They do try to stick to their brand of Theosophy, although the politics involved and the expulsions are, to put it mildly, undesirable. >Geez! You guys are in total, absolute control of every >Theosophical organization. Your view is the only one allowed >in any of the periodicals, at least in the US. (The Quest has >many non-Theosophical articles, but *never* any that question >or reevaluate anything considered fundamental by the TSA >fundamentalists.) I don't think that people that "believe in" Theosophy are fundamentalists, and that those that don't have an exclusive claim to being able to reevaluate, rethink, and explore the philosophy. I'd rather think that those that take the philosophy seriously and give it the greatest thought would have the greatest progress in exploring it, although you'd likely label them among us "fundamentals" and "true believers". >No one outside your circle of ultraorthodox >Theosophists has any real influence on anything in the >movement, and yet you *still* persist in blaming the >insufficiently-orthodox for the *only* problem in the >movement-- which is their very existence. While it would be a problem if the T.S.'s were overrun with people that did not believe in Theosophy, or even care for it, in the short run I don't see it as threatening. When you say that the "insufficiently-orthodox" people are "blamed" for the problems of the movement, that's conjecture on your part. I don't see blame there. I see the blame in those of us who would work to spread Theosophy, and don't take responsibility for ourselves as well. The blame is in would-be Theosophists for not sincerely trying to tread the Path, not in people of differing philosophies, approaches, and interests, who won't imitate us and follow the way that we're taking. >> But what if the coke and pepsi drinkers outnumber those >> for the sevenup in the T.S.? >Make them feel totally unwelcome by constantly harping on how >superior you are to them! That should solve the problem >eventually. Again the same claim! Why is it that whenever I attempt to make a case for the genuine nuggets of gold to be found in Theosophy, and for a bona fide spiritual approach to be behind it, I get all these claims that I and people that are equally convinced with me are harping on how superior we are? That's totally bizarre. There's no comparison of "I'm up here, she's a little lower, and this guy is way down there on the scale of things." There's just an somewhat awed attempt to describe some wonderful treasures that we've been blessed to have because of the theosophical movement. Given the consistent nature of this reaction, though, I can appreciate why esoteric groups are formed, where things can be talked about where they won't bring immediate misunderstanding and offense to others. This would be "going underground". -- Eldon From 74024.3352@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 31 06:18:30 1996 Date: 31 Jul 96 02:18:30 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Myalba is Not Youralba - Hell is a Globe or State? Message-Id: <960731061829_74024.3352_BHT112-3@CompuServe.COM> Blavatsky wrote: . (35) Myalba is our earth --pertinently called "hell", and the greatest of all hells, by the esoteric school. The esoteric doctrine knows of no hell, or place of punishment, other than a man-bearing planet or earth. Avitchi is a state, and not a locality. Keith: Nobody seems to want to touch this. If earth is the lowest globe, the most dense, the most material the place of the kali yuga where the Brothers of the Shadow are at war with the Great White Lodge, then we are in a type of purgatory if nothing else. The suffering of being separated from the light and love or being connected to it is such a disrupted state of 7 bodies with their own desires - some to reach downward into matter and some seeking return to the light suggest the descent of Jesus into hell to give an opportunity for salvation one more time to those in Hell - Myalba - Earth. The Buddha was also a teacher of suffering all is suffering and vexation of the spiriir. Others say sin. Others say vanity or that it is all full of sound and fury signifying NOTHING! Is Nirvana the life wave going into pralaya (a rest between manvantaras? Is the Nirmankaya the one that renounces Heaven for Hell. Is it better to rule in Hell or suffer and serve in Myalba or jsut be blown out in Nirvana? Or are we already in all possible states as in the craked up 7up Uncola un united Unity of the One/Unmanifest manifested? Eldon are you thinking or is your silence telling me to go to Myabla! :) Namaste Keith