From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 05:21:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Ruben Cabigting Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Astrea wrote: > MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes: > > > I recommend the following 6 or so books: > (etc....) > > What we need is a FAQ (frequently asked questions) about > theosophy which can be posted at regular intervals. It could > include a bibliography of suggested reading for both beginners > and non-beginners, an outline of the different theosophical > groups, some notes on some of the key figures and a summary of > any areas of controversy, and perhaps some of the main ideas > associated with the society, the objects, addresses of Branches > etc. This way, we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time > someone asks for some introductory information. Any > volunteers??? (Not me - no time!) > > Of course, the effort to develop a FAQ may unearth some areas > where we don't agree ;-) But actually, these can be reflected in > a well-constructed FAQ, > > ASTREA > Hi! That is an excellent idea I wish I have the time to work on it because it will be a great service to anyone interested in Theosophy. Shanti, Ruben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 08:50:11 -0600 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ Astrea: What a remarkable idea ... I wonder if the list has an interest in developing one along the lines outlined in your post ... what you suggest would be more substantial than the norm (for FAQ's that is), but it occurs to me that this list, with its intercollegiate membership, its very different viewpoints on a number of topics, its fair number of published writers, and its national, even international geographical distribution, could not only hammer out quite a document for new list members, but also something that perhaps many Lodges would find exceedingly useful. In fact this list just might be able to produce something that no single Theosophical institution would be likely to produce from within itself ... Anyone interested? How do you suppose it would be organized? Attempt to formulate an outline of topics, ask for volunteers to each take one or two sections of most interest & write a draft ... then take the drafts one by one and work on them jointly on the list JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 1995 00:18:32 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: A Few Remarks on Paul Johnson's Refusal to Engage in Discussion and In message <95063016144188@lewis.umt.edu> theos-l@vnet.net writes: > Love & chuckles, -JRC Ran out of giggles? Is there a subtle theo-l message here I'm not getting? Love and mirth, Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 14:56:34 -0600 From: taliesin@magic.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Back Overhearing and Contributing Hi, About two weeks ago I suddenly realized that there was a major slow down in the posting traffic of Theos-l. I thought it was because many of us are academics with university accounts ect. I figured that it was the summer slump. I thought this until I with a burst of intuitive intelligence, I simply check out the recipient list for theos-l and found that I was missing. For some reason my name had been removed, I didn't unsubscribe ..perhaps I was even excommunicated from theosophy! horrors.. how could that be possible with such a liberal minded group. So I have re subscribed and look forward to the daily intrigues of the group the esoteric lungeing in to the unknown and the challenging comments of you all. Good to be back. Sorry it took so long to figure out what had gone wrong. Theos-l should not tolerated being accused of summer slump. I confess to the ever vigilant cyber-theosophists. Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:00:26 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: What we need is a FAQ ... Some of the FAQ's I have seen end up attempting to be too comprehensive, with the result that they tend not to get read. One newsgroup I subscribe to has regular monthly FAQ postings of *the same* material, crossposted to other groups. Admittedly there are frequent updates, but I get a little anxious on behalf of the folks who are still running slow modems on slow machines. I have a fast modem on a slow machine :-). The Idea of a theos-? FAQ is great, but might, IMHO, be best organised into (not too many) sub-divisions. One, for instance, could be simply a bibliography of books on theosophical subjects from different angles. Another could give details of the different theosophical organisations and their main locations. Accurate descriptions of what each organisation represented vis a vis the others could be a hotter potato than Paul's TMR though ..... Speak to us, O great Cyberbrain of the satellite waves, what is Thy will, O Great One ... Our own dedicated Web Page would be nice ..... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 22:49:16 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ > What we need is a FAQ (frequently asked questions) about theosophy which can be posted at regular intervals. Sure do - a great idea Astrea It could include a bibliography of > suggested reading for both beginners and non-beginners, an outline of the different theosophical groups, some notes on some of the key figures and a summary of any areas of controversy, and perhaps some of the main ideas associated with the society, the objects, addresses of Branches etc. I'm happy to compile the list of branches etc. I leave your other suggestions to others. In fact I was thinking about this over the last few days as the TS in America has a home page and only refers to the US for contact. I would like to add overseas contacts and include TS's orgs not based in Adyar, (I have my flak jacket on in case I need it round here, I've been lurking for a week, just got my account). So I'll do it for here too, I'm a newbie for all this - would a message be the best, a file attatchment or better still I suspect, it becomes part of the Info you get if you message the listserv. I bow to others greater knowledge on this. Point is, I can do the address bits, and try to keep it update too. This way, we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time someone > asks for some introductory information. Any volunteers??? (Not me - no time!) BTW does anyone know who to contact about linking this info to the current home page for Wheaton? Save reinventing the wheel the info for here could be adapted for there. > Of course, the effort to develop a FAQ may unearth some areas where we don't agree ;-) But actually, these can be reflected in a well-constructed FAQ, A great challenge, let's hope we are all up to it. BFN OOROO Michelle Internet michelle@zip.com.au Fidonet 3:712/505 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 22:49:25 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ ... > The Idea of a theos-? FAQ is great, but might, IMHO, be best > organised into (not too many) sub-divisions. One, for instance, > could be simply a bibliography of books on theosophical subjects > from different angles. Good idea to break it down - seem we need to decide on the method of distribution and work out the way to structure it from there. > Our own dedicated Web Page would be nice ..... There are a few pages for Tsy already so not sure whether this list serv members would benefit from having their own or not. If others think its worth doing, I would be interested in looking after it, I'm just getting into writing these and plan to have a few. BFN OOROO Michelle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 22:49:21 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ > Anyone interested? How do you suppose it would be organized? Attempt to formulate an outline of topics, ask for volunteers to each take one or two sections of most interest & write a draft ... then take the drafts one by one and work on them jointly on the list I think breaking it up into topics is a good idea (suggesting topics even might be a challenge) Do you think creating a list to work on this would be good idea rather than here in Theos-L? I'm too new to be sure of the etiquitte and policy here, but this idea is too good to keep lurking. Can you help me with the policy for this list? Thanks. I will not be able to help much on content but am good at editing for clarity ( my spelling isn't the best) I am happy to the address and contact info as mentioned elsewhere. Though I don't have lots of time I will make time for this. BFN OOROO Michelle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 22:49:23 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: Back Overhearing and Contributing Arthur > gone wrong. Theos-l should not tolerated being accused of summer slump. I confess to the ever vigilant cyber-theosophists. And even if there was a summer slump those of us down under, who are in the depths of winter (and staying close to the warmth of CPU's and monitors) will be here. ;-) BFN OOROO Michelle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 22:16:23 -0400 From: LaPea@aol.com Subject: question Does anybody know if John Cooper has returned to Australia from India and Tibet? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 20:20:30 -0700 From: ae677@lafn.org (Nancy Coker) Subject: Send them all to theos-roots! Paul wrote: > You might recall that there was a strong consensus last time round that this line of discussion be posted to theos-roots rather than theos-l. That still seems the best policy. I encourage other theos-l participants to comment yea or nay on this suggestion. Please count my vote for restricting the history discussions (including the Masters' identities, itineraries, appearances, disappearances, and whatever) to theos-roots. I hope conventions for discourse can be amicably agreed upon. This seems especially important since the written word seems to carry so much more weight than the spoken one. I appreciate that there are those who treasure the importance of our history. For my part, I don't want to have to explain when HPB comes back and asks what the hell we're doing playing detec- tive while poor infant humanity writhes. There are those who subscribe to the idea of nonlocal, nonlinear causality, (I think I have this correctly) which implies that we can affect the past. This notion delights me :) with its possibilities, and saddens me :( when I consider how we squander them. Nancy. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 23:10:16 -0600 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: (none) help From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 08:47:50 +1100 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ ... michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) writes: > >Our own dedicated Web Page would be nice ..... > There are a few pages for Tsy already so not sure whether this list serv members would benefit from having their own or not. If others think its worth doing, I would be interested in looking after it, I'm just getting into writing these and plan to have a few. I run a few web servers, and would be happy to place a FAQ on one of them. See http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 08:49:20 +1100 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! ae677@lafn.org (Nancy Coker) writes: > There are those who subscribe to the idea of nonlocal, nonlinear causality, (I think I have this correctly) which implies that we can affect the past. This notion delights me :) with its possibilities, and saddens me :( when I consider how we squander them. This is the topic of a book by Richard Bach. It's also the topic of a dream I had at the weekend, in which not only can one affect one's past lives, but also there is at least one mirror world where things are done a little differently... :-) Anyway, as a suggestion for a FAQ, there is an _excellent_ summary of theosophy written by Jack Patterson published by the New Zealand Section of the T.S. (Adyar.) I'd like to request Murray from NZ to ask Jack if we can publish it on the WWW. Has anyone here seen it? It's a little blue booklet. I'd be happy to scan it in. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:33:42 -0400 From: FRDHVY@aol.com Subject: logos and other topics Brenda, Pardon my delay in response to your note of 6-19. I concur with your analysis that the soul, the spirit, and the body are adversaries. If I follow my hormones, I may violate some moral principle I have adopted; if I follow my spirit, I may deny my body physical sustenance; etc. I become complete when my soul, my spirit, and my body are one wtih the unmanifest logos- - - (at that point, I doubt very much that I will be in this world of maya...) In SD pg 14-15 fn we read "The "first" presupposes necessarily something which is the "first brought forth," "the first in time, space, and rank"- and therefore finite and conditioned. The "first" cannot be the absolute, for it is a manifestation. Therefore, Eastern Occultism calls Abstract All the "causless one cause," "the Rootless Root," and limits the "first cause" to the logos, in the sense that Plato gives the term." Unmanifest logos (causeless cause) gives rise to the manifestation of logos (cause). Manifestation of logos (cause) gives rise to expression of opposites (Jehovah-Satan; Good, Bad; Light, Darkness; Energy, Matter; etc...) When I choose to seek unmanifest logos, I seek to bring all opposites into balance by unification. ( In my personal life, I suppose I do this by dominating the expression of the oppposites in my actions... ) (This all sounds very Platonic to me, and regardless of the thoughts of others in the past and present, it makes some intuitive and logical sense to me.) Just a note of clarification, I would add that I have a baad habit of using the word perfection and completeness as synonyms. I do not mean to use the term perfection to imply any moral system or sense of judgement. I hope I did not cause you some confusion in my previous writing. Thanks for the comments on the laser observatories. That is new information to me, and I am not sure what it all means. At this point, I do not have the technical knowledge to predict what they will find, either based on my understanding of science or from my knowledge of the Stanzas. (Gooe food for thought!) I look forward to hearing more from you, Brenda, and I hope our dialog will stimulate others constuctively. Love and Light, Fred Request for contact: Would anyone on theos-l@vnet.net from Australia please contact me by E-mail at FRDHVY@AOL.COM. Thanks. Love and Light. Fred From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:18:52 -0600 From: taliesin@magic.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: logos and other topics > Just a note of clarification, I would add that I have a baad habit of using the word perfection and completeness as synonyms. I do not mean to use the term perfection to imply any moral system or sense of judgement. I hope I did not cause you some confusion in my previous writing. It is interesting that there is so much controversy caused by that word "perfection". The greek the idea is more along the line of being made complete or mature. When say in the Scriptures the words "Be perfect" are used. The mainstream tradition picks that up as being morally perfect without flaw or inerrant whereas the gnostic and esoteric traditions see completeness as the goal. I see this , like you do, as the union of opposition. The only problem I see with some Jungian formulations of union of opposites is that often the attempt to have this happen results in a hidden perfectionism. In other words there is no sense of grace or acceptance only fear that we must improve as quickly as possible. Moving toward integrity or integration is an ontological task of character developement not a cheap and quick technique like many make it.I think the soul has its own timing for very good reasons. I appreciated your last post thanks for sharing. Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 16:17 PDT From: portelli@calon.com Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! don't send 'em here! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 21:15:19 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Overhearing and Contributing Welcome Michelle down under from up over, Bristol, UK! If you are willing to compile details of branches, etc., would I could perhaps seek out a list of the UK Adyar-based English Section for inclusion (though if someone else already has it on disk, maybe they could e-mail it to you? *And* let us all know they have done it). I grok BFN but not OOROO - a lieutenant in Star Trek? :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:51:11 -0600 From: taliesin@magic.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: (none) John Tullis Wrote: > Just a note of clarification, I would add that I have a baad habit of using the word perfection and completeness as synonyms. I do not mean to use the term perfection to imply any moral system or sense of judgement. I hope I did not cause you some confusion in my previous writing. It is interesting that there is so much controversy caused by that word "perfection". The greek the idea is more along the line of being made complete or mature. When say in the Scriptures the words "Be perfect" are used. The mainstream tradition picks that up as being morally perfect without flaw or inerrant whereas the gnostic and esoteric traditions see completeness as the goal. I see this , like you do, as the union of opposition. The only problem I see with some Jungian formulations of union of opposites is that often the attempt to have this happen results in a hidden perfectionism. In other words there is no sense of grace or acceptance only fear that we must improve as quickly as possible. Moving toward integrity or integration is an ontological task of character developement not a cheap and quick technique like many make it.I think the soul has its own timing for very good reasons. I appreciated your last post thanks for sharing. Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 13:59:21 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! > Anyway, as a suggestion for a FAQ, there is an _excellent_ summary of theosophy written by Jack Patterson published by the New Zealand Section of the T.S. (Adyar.) I'd like to request Murray from NZ to ask Jack if we can publish it on the WWW. Has anyone here seen it? It's a little blue booklet. I'd be happy to scan it in. My thoughts too, it is an excellent booklet. I suspect Paul that it is on disk in NZ now and wont need to be scanned... No doubt Murray will let us know. BFN OOROO Michelle Internet michelle@zip.com.au Fidonet 3:712/505 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 1995 16:40:52 +1200 From: "Murray Stentiford, Scientific Software and Systems Ltd" Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! Replying to Michelle > > Anyway, as a suggestion for a FAQ, there is an _excellent_ summary of theosophy written by Jack Patterson published by the New Zealand Section of the T.S. (Adyar.) I'd like to request Murray from NZ to ask Jack if we can publish it on the WWW. Has anyone here seen it? It's a little blue booklet. I'd be happy to scan it in. > My thoughts too, it is an excellent booklet. I suspect Paul that it is on disk in NZ now and wont need to be scanned... No doubt Murray will let us know. My access to e-mail has been severely limited the last couple of weeks, with my principal hardware away for modifications, so I'm glad to have received this message today. Have just spoken to Jack Patterson and he's more than willing to see his booklet appear on the WWW or similar. A version of it with a different cover has been available in the United States for a few years now; its cover is a gray and yellow pattern, from memory. The title escapes me for the moment but people at Olcott should know the one I'm referring to. Jack says the American one differs from his original in the theosophical text in only a very small way - a couple of sentences on international karma. I don't know if the booklet has been scanned in in NZ yet, but I'll ask around. It certainly has been well received. Great to hear from you Michelle, if you're the Michelle I'm thinking of. Perhaps we can catch up on private e-mail. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 13:37:00 PDT From: "Porreco, Nick - CPMQ" Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! > ---------- > From: theos-roots > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! > Date: Monday, July 03, 1995 7:18PM > > don't send 'em here! Why, Wouldn't it be appropriate. Nick. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:44:35 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: Send them all to theos-roots! Hi Murray > My access to e-mail has been severely limited the last couple of weeks, with my principal hardware away for modifications, so I'm glad to have received this message today. Glad to hear from you, sorry to hear about the hardware problems though :-( > Have just spoken to Jack Patterson and he's more than willing to see his booklet appear on the WWW or similar. A version of it with a different GREAT, I have a copy here of the "blue book" dated about 1990 edition. I wonder if there have been updates since then? > cover has been available in the United States for a few years now; its cover is a gray and yellow pattern, from memory. The title escapes me for Good memory, I think it is called "The Mysteries of Existence", the Probing was dropped. > the moment but people at Olcott should know the one I'm referring to. The people at Aust Section saw copies too some years ago as I brought a few back from Krotona in 91. They have had plans to do a local version. > Jack says the American one differs from his original in the theosophical text in only a very small way - a couple of sentences on international karma. There are some layout changes too, some of which are due to different cultural ways in US to NZ. In fact if the NZ version isnt available as a text file, the US one will be I'm sure the staff there would be happy for us to have a copy (Ruben are you there???) BFN OOROO Michelle Internet michelle@zip.com.au Fidonet 3:712/505 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:44:40 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: Overhearing and Contributing > Welcome Michelle down under from up over, Bristol, UK! Thank you Alan > If you are willing to compile details of branches, etc., would > I could perhaps seek out a list of the UK Adyar-based English > Section for inclusion (though if someone else already has it on > disk, maybe they could e-mail it to you? *And* let us all know > they have done it). Thanks for your help, may be Adam W is still at HQ and has the list on disk... Adam are you there? I will work on this over the next couple of weeks - getting out things from safe storage, that have a number of movements addresses, and put them here for checking from time to time. What might be best is regional pages added to a main home page. With branches for each region being linked underneath, if you know what I mean. As well as a text file for non web users to download. > I grok BFN but not OOROO - a lieutenant in Star Trek? :-) A local expression usually meaning goodbye, a stretch from the original english (cockney I think) Hooray. You guessed it though I am a trek fan too, at the moment it is playing 4 nights a week! The original, ST:TNG and ST:DSN - a feast. BFN OOROO Michelle Internet michelle@zip.com.au Fidonet 3:712/505 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:24:00 -0600 From: taliesin@magic.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: FYI - attribution correction Opps, Sorry John. What happened was that the server returned this message to me and the sender appeared to be John Tullis. If you know who did write this I would be much much appreciative and correct the mistake. As for content it was not meant to be particularly confrontive or combative. I was making the point the perfection is a bit of a problem word which needs a bit of clarity. Thanks for the Info, Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 5 Jul 95 9:30:30 From: "john.d.tullis" Subject: FYI - attribution correction > John Tullis Wrote: > >Just a note of clarification, I would add that I have a baad habit of using. the word perfection and completeness as synonyms. I do not mean to use the term perfection to imply any moral system or sense of judgement. I hope I did not cause you some confusion in my previous writing. > It is interesting that there is so much controversy caused by that word "perfection". The greek the idea is more along the line of being made complete or mature. When say in the Scriptures the words "Be perfect" are used. The mainstream tradition picks that up as being morally perfect without flaw or inerrant whereas the gnostic and esoteric traditions see completeness as the goal. > I see this , like you do, as the union of opposition. The only problem I see with some Jungian formulations of union of opposites is that often the attempt to have this happen results in a hidden perfectionism. In other words there is no sense of grace or acceptance only fear that we must improve as quickly as possible. Moving toward integrity or integration is an ontological task of character developement not a cheap and quick technique like many make it.I think the soul has its own timing for very good reasons. I appreciated your last post thanks for sharing. > Arthur Paul Patterson Just FYI - I never wrote the above that you attribute to me. I may have responded to it - in which case I would have included it with the above ">" method of indicating that it is quoted material - or you may have misidentified the author. John Tullis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:34:48 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Wow! Now I know what "flames" are! Daniel, I would like to express support for your attempt to offer a critque of Paul Johnson's books. I have to agree with you. It certainly does appear to me that Paul is the one who keeps moving the discussion to the emotional level. I subscribe to all the lists, so it makes no difference to me on which list your comments are posted, but I think since many of those on theos-l are not subscribers to the others your comments should be posted to theos-l. Last I saw there were over 100 subscribers, most of whom don't post comments. In a large group like this there are bound to be discussions on topics of less interest to some than to others. There have been a lot of posts about the Tarot and the Kabballah that held little interest to me, but others found very interesting. As in any group there are some dominating voices on the list. If you allow a few to force your discussion off this list I think you do a disservice to the all the others. If they find your comments boring there is always the delete key! Oops....used that exclaimation key. Lewisllucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 09:31:00 PDT From: "Porreco, Nick - CPMQ" Subject: Re: Theosophical Network Dear Paul, Thank you for your reply. I have almost all copies of Theosophical History. Do you remember which issue it is in. Thanks, Nick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 14:51:52 -0700 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: book discussion isn't history, is it? (This is from a post by Lewis Lucas.) > I would like to express support for your attempt to offer a critque of Paul Johnson's books. I have to agree with you. It certainly does appear to me that Paul is the one who keeps moving the discussion to the emotional level. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but does anyone know if Paul Johnson's career is writing or teaching? I might be quite emotional myself if I were attempting to earn a living writing books (as opposed to participating in entertaining discussions or being occupied with my favorite pasttime or hobby). He seems to be a middle-aged student of theosophy whose book contains enough research to make me believe that he is researching and writing full-time. What kind of work, Paul, did you do when you were young (or before your first book on theosophy)? Did your talent in writing come from university study? Have any of you ever received a review or critique or performance evaluation at your place of business? The hospital I once worked at became very peevish in lieu of a licensing inspection of the facility. Those people had devoted their life to making a hospital run and couldn't entertain lightly the thought that it might be shut down because they weren't prepared with proper guidelines in place, etc.. How many people actually make a career out of theosophy? Joy Mills did. Shirley Nicholson did later in life. Dorothy and John Abbenhouse did. I don't know of anyone on our list who made theosophy a career, unless it is Paul. All of these people wrote books except for Dorothy and John. They were camp managers. > I subscribe to all the lists, so it makes no difference to me on which list your comments are posted, but I think since many of those on theos-l are not subscribers to the others your comments should be posted to theos-l. > Last I saw there were over 100 subscribers, most of whom don't post comments. In a large group like this there are bound to be discussions on topics of less interest to some than to others. There have been a lot of posts about the Tarot and the Kabballah that held little interest to me, but others found very interesting. Lewis, there is currently only one exception that I know of to what you mention above. When I advertised the theos-l group on the WWW, making it simple for browsers to subscribe and participate, I neglected (on purpose) to mention the other three theos groups, hoping that we could still write with some privacy if necessary there. I haven't heard any comments one way or the other about theos-l being open for passers-by, but like myself, I would imagine that many people would try different lists, but not enjoy the content and then unsubscribe. I unsubscribed almost immediately from skeptic-l and set-l and religion-l, just keeping a second alternate, buddha-l. It's very geared to eastern texts. Thought I might learn something. > As in any group there are some dominating voices on the list. If you allow a few to force your discussion off this list I think you do a disservice to the all the others. If they find your comments boring there is always the delete key! Oops....used that exclaimation key. I like this idea, Lewis, but I wasn't here for the first "heated" discussion. I was on maternity leave. (ha ha) So maybe people did become insulting. Some are good friends in spite of it. We may all become called upon to express our forgiving natures and our endurance or at least called upon to strengthen virtues. What could be more theosophical? If you may be flashing back to my own particular case of trying to censor this discussion at one time, I did think I was strengthening a virtue by leaving, the virtue of non-attachment. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 09:07:46 -0700 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: FAQ and directory I copied this information from a posting on buddha-l and reworded it a bit. Since some people here are planning a FAQ and directory, I thought it might be of interest. "Once a file was written which was set within the system to be distributed once a month. The problem with that is the listserv has a feature that enables it to compare each message quickly with all previous files in the log. If it detects a message that is an exact replica of a previously distributed message, it returns it to the sender with an error message. One solution is to write a slightly different message each month, perhaps one with updates and changes, or to write one message and keep it on file in the archives. Yet another solution is to have an extensive user's guide to theos-l that can be downloaded from the theos-l store of files. " From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 11:07:50 PDT From: naftaly@mdd.comm.mot.com (Naftaly Ramramkar) Subject: Re: A suggestion please > Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:21:45 -0400 > From: DAVID KUTTRUFF <71254.312@compuserve.com> > Subject: A suggestion please > I am fairly new to Theosophy. I have some experience with meditation (TM since '74), and have studied for many years under a student in a Mystery School. I have enjoyed two of Annie Besant's books: "Esoteric Christianity" and "The Ancient Wisdom". I have heard that reading Madame Blavatsky's books directly is somewhat overwhelming; therefore, I would like to ask for a recommendation or two as to which books might serve as good introductions before jumping into the deeper volumes. > Also, are there any Theosophical Society groups in Southern California? > Thank you much for your help. > David K. HI DAVID , GREETINGS FROM VANCOUVER THERE ARE MANY BOOKS AVAILABLE FROM THEOSOIPHICAL SOCIETY CONCERNING BASIC THEOSOPHY HERE ARE SOME OF THEM 1. BASIC THEOSOPHY BY GEOFFREY HODSON 2. SELF CULTURE BY I.K. TAIMANI 3. ANCIENT WISDOM BY ANNIE BESANT 4. THERE SEVEN SERIES BOOKLETS BY BESANT-LEADBEATER 9TALK WITH WHEATON LIBRARY THEY WILL GUIDE YOU) THERE ARE ALSO SOME LITTLE DEEPER BOOKS WHICH YOU SHOULD EXPLORE: 1. SEVEN TEMPERAMENTS OF MAN BY G. HODSON 2. SUPREME SPLENDOUR BY G. HODSON 3. WAY OF THE DESCIPLE BY CLARA M. CODD 4. SEEKING WISDOM N. SRI RAM 5. MEDITATION ON OCCULT LIFE BY G. HODSON 6. SCIENCE OF YOGA BY I.K. TAIMANI THESE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN IN A SIMPLE LANGUAGE AND SOME OF IT IS VERY DEEP.> THERE ARE ALSO SOME EXCELLENT BOOKS BY G.DE. PURUCKER INCLUDING HIS TALKS THREE SERIES BOOKS AND ESOTERIC TRADITION. YOU SHOULD ALSO TRY SOME OTHER SOURCES OUTSIDE OF THEOSOPHY 1. FREEDOM FROM THE KNOWN AND COMMENTRY ON LIVING BY J. KRISHNAMURTI 2. DEVINE LIFE AND LETTER ON YOGA BY AURABINDU THERE ARE LOTS OF BOOKS OUT THERE AND SOME OF THEM ARE MISLEADING. JUST WATCH YOURSELF AND GO WITH YOUR OWN INCLINATION. DON'T ALLOW OTHER TO INFLUENCE YOU. ONE WALKS ALONE ON THE PATH. ONE OFFERS HELP BUT NEVER INFLUENCES OTHERS TO HIS POINT OF VIEWS. BEACUSE EACH ONE HAS TO DISCOVER HIS OWN PATH> SHANTI NAFTALY From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 11:49:25 -0700 From: eldon@theosophy.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: notes on the Theosophical Network Since there's been some mention of the Theosophical Network, I thought that it might be interesting to write a few notes about it. I don't have time today to write anything, but here's the revised bylaws for the project. It's original committee consisted of Jerry Ekins, Rick Nurrie, Ken Small, Virginia Ross, and myself. I can't find the original bylaws, but here's the revised version, as modified to soften its initial statement at Virginia's request. -- Eldon Tucker INTRODUCTION Following is the January 28, 1985 version of the Bylaws of the Theosophical Network. ARTICLE I - NAME A. The name of this organization shall be the Theosophical Network. B. The Theosophical Network is a non-profit organization. It is currently a voluntary association. The possibility of incorporation at some future time has been left open, but there are no current plans to incorporate. C. As a non-profit organization, the Theosophical Network does not exist for the personal benefit of any individual. 1. The assets of the Theosophical Network must be used strictly for the purposes of the Network, and never solely for the personal benefit of any individual. 2. Should the Theosophical Network disband (or disincorporate if it is a corporation), its assets are to be donated to one-or-more theosophical organizations, as determined at that time by the Managing Committee. ARTICLE II - OBJECTIVES A. The purpose of the Theosophical Network is to disseminate information about theosophical activities and to facilitate intercommunication between people who share a common interest in Theosophy. Secondly, to present Theosophical Teachings in the light of, and in relation to the source writings of the founders of the modern Theosophical Movement. B. The goals of the Theosophical Network are: 1. to enhance communication and encourage interrelating of ideas within the Theosophical Movement, and 2. to encourage initiative and cooperation in similar projects and research. C. To further these goals, the Theosophical Network will: 1. publish a quarterly newsletter, 2. publish an annual directory, and 3. provide a computer information service. D. While working cooperatively within the Movement, the Theosophical Network is independent and unaffiliated with any Theosophical or other organization. ARTICLE III - MEMBERSHIP A. The Theosophical Network has no membership. ARTICLE IV - GENERAL PROVISIONS A. Definitions 1. "Network" shall be taken to mean "Theosophical Network". 2. "Managing Committee" shall be taken to mean "the Board of Directors of the Theosophical Network". B. Although the Network is not to soon become a corporation, it will remain open to receiving grants from any non- profit corporation, as long as there are no conditions applied to those grants. C. There shall be no public activities in the name of the Network, no new articles nor publicity, other than reprints of the objectives of the Network. ARTICLE V - MANAGING COMMITTEE A. The Managing Committee shall consist of five members. B. No Managing Committee member shall use his/her title publicly; no one will sign letters nor contact the public as a member of the Managing Committee. There is no attempt, though, to make a secret of the existence of the Managing Committee. C. The Managing Committee is an administrative body, not an authoritative body, and it is the intention of the Managing Committee to not act in a way that represents the Network as an society or organization, with the Managing Committee as its head. The Network is a public information service, not a society, and it is important to not do anything that may be misleading. D. The Managing Committee has the responsibility to insure that the officers perform their functions in accord with the objectives of the Network. E. The Managing Committee can provide additional instruction to an officer, in the form of either recommendations or directives that must be followed, should the Managing Committee determine that an officer needs additional instruction in performing the duties of his/her office. This additional clarification need not be an amendment to the bylaws. F. Committee meetings: 1. require a quorum of four of the five members present in order to conduct business, 2. are closed to the general public, except by invitation by a Committee Member, and 3. require a one-month advance notice, once the date of a meeting has been determined, in order to give members time to make travel arrangements to attend the meeting. ARTICLE VI - OFFICERS A. All officers must be current members of the Managing Committee. B. The officers of the Network shall be Secretary/Treasurer, Directory Editor, and Newsletter Editor. C. Officers shall be elected by the Managing Committee from among its members. D. Officers shall serve until they resign or until the Managing Committee replaces them. E. An officer has final responsibility for his/her work function, although he/she may delegate some of the work to other helpers that he/she may bring into the work of the Network. F. Officers of the Network may use their titles in dealing with the public, because that is the work function that they are performing. It is recommended, though, that they stay low key in using those titles, so as to not mislead the public into thinking that the Network is a society. G. Any officer may be replaced if the Managing Committee feels that it is in the best interest of the Network to do so. H. All officers shall turn over all official current files normally pertaining to their office, as well as office equipment and property of the Network, to either their successors or to another Committee Member, no later than four weeks after leaving office. I. The duties of the Secretary/Treasurer shall be to: 1. (Treasurer) be responsible for the collection, custody, and accounting of all of the Network's funds, 2. (Treasurer) receive and solicit contributions, 3. (Treasurer) disburse funds for expenditures authorized in the budget, as directed by the Managing Committee, and for reasonable Network- related expenses when not in excess of $20, 4. (Treasurer) present a financial statement to each Committee meeting, on an annual basis, and when otherwise directed to do so by the Committee, 5. (Treasurer) maintain an up-to-date subscription list, 6. (Secretary) maintain the minutes of all Committee meetings, 7. (Secretary) maintain all records of the Network except those specifically assigned to another officer by the bylaws, 8. (Secretary) make available to any Committee member upon request, any official record, including the bylaws and budget, and 9. (Secretary) facilitate the committee-by-mail decision process, as outlined in the Article on the Decision Process. J. The duties of the Directory Editor shall be to: 1. solicit and receive copy for directory entries, 2. edit and insure that directory-entry copy is consistent with the Network objectives, 3. set up final copy for the directory publication, 4. insure that the directory is printed, 5. insure that the directory is mailed to subscribers, and 6. take and make referrals to people, groups, and magazines. K. The duties of the Newsletter Editor shall be to: 1. solicit and receive news copy for the newsletter, 2. edit and insure that the newsletter copy is consistent with the Network objectives, 3. set up final copy for the newsletter publication, 4. insure that the newsletter is printed, 5. insure that the newsletter is mailed to subscribers, and 6. take and make referrals to events and happenings. ARTICLE VII - PUBLICATIONS A. All publications of the Network must be maintained in accord with the objectives of the Network. It is the responsibility of the editor of a publication to use his/her best judgment to achieve that goal. B. Submissions to a publication (including entries for the directory and material for the newsletter) must be reviewed, edited, and perhaps rejected by the editor of a publication, if such is necessary to maintain the Network objectives. C. There will be no advertisements in the publications, paid or otherwise. D. The contents of the directory shall consist of the "nouns", information about the "who" and "what" in the current theosophical movement. The directory: 1. will not contain articles nor information about projects nor classes, 2. will only contain a copy of the objectives of the Network in addition to its listings, 3. will contain optional entries for people, entries for groups, and entries for magazines, 4. will not contain a section on birth data, 5. will maintain descriptive information about people, groups, and magazines, and their special interests, and 6. will maintain information on how one can come in contact with those people, groups, and magazines. E. The contents of the newsletter shall consist of the "verbs", information about the "how" and "when" of the current theosophical movement. The newsletter: 1. will not contain name, address, nor descriptive information on people, groups, nor magazines, except to the extent to which such is needed in event announcements, 2. will contain announcements of classes, seminars, workshops, on-going projects, and other timely information, 3. will have an editorial page, representing the views of the Network (written by Managing Committee members and others as invited on a case-by-case basis), 4. will have a letters-to-the-editor page, representing the views of others who choose to write in, 5. will contain articles and/or reprints with material of current interest to the theosophical movement. ARTICLE VIII - BUDGET A. Any proposed expenditure in excess of $20 not included in the approved budget shall be presented for approval to the Managing Committee. B. Retroactive expenses (those not approved in advance nor included in the budged) cannot be reimbursed, without special vote by the Managing Committee. C. The following types of items have been approved for expenditure by officers of the Network: 1. postage on the mailings of the newsletters and directories, 2. printing costs for the newsletters and the directories, but not costs for art work, layouts nor setting up the camera-ready copy, 3. printing the combination directory-entry subscription-application form, 4. printing and copying costs for the Secretary, for providing records and other materials to the members of the Managing Committee and the public, 5. the annual fee for a bulk-mailing permit, 6. postage costs for the Treasurer, for mailing to the subscribers receipts for their payments, and, 7. postage costs for the Directory Editor, for mailing to the subscribers a proof copy of their newly- entered (onto the computer) proof copy of their directory entries. D. The following types of items have been specifically mentioned as not getting approval: 1. paid advertisements on behalf of the Network, nor any other publicity costs, and 2. long-distance phone calls made by people working for the Network. E. An annual budget will be prepared by the Treasurer, in consultation with the other Managing Committee members, and submitted for amendment and final approval by the Managing Committee. ARTICLE IX - THE DECISION PROCESS A. All decisions are made by the Managing Committee, including decisions about membership in the Managing Committee, the size of the Managing Committee, appointments to office, and amendments to the bylaws. B. A decision in made by a vote representing three of the five Managing Committee members. C. There are two ways in which decisions can be made: 1. Decisions can be made at an Managing Committee meeting. A Managing Committee member must be present, or can be represented by either written statement or proxy. 2. A committee-by-mail decision can be initiated by any Managing Committee member by: a. communicating the request (verbally or in writing) to the Secretary, b. the Secretary then prepares the request in a written form suitable for a vote, c. the Secretary then mails to all Committee Members the newly-prepared written request, d. the Committee Members then read and consider the written request, marking it "accepted" or "rejected", e. if a Committee Member wishes to accept most, but not all of the request, he/she can mark it as "accepted" and then cross out some of the sections marking them "not this part", f. the Committee Members then return mail the marked-up written requests to the Secretary, g. when all written requests have been received by the Secretary, the Secretary will tally the votes and announce the results to the Committee Members. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 15:20:45 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: book discussion isn't history, is it? According to Brenda S. Tucker: > > (This is from a post by Lewis Lucas.) > > > I would like to express support for your attempt to offer a critque of Paul Johnson's books. I have to agree with you. It certainly does appear to me that Paul is the one who keeps moving the discussion to the emotional level. Exactly so! But not in the sense you seem to mean, I reckon. An ostensibly intellectual analysis, when presented in a confrontational, accusing, condemning way, EXPRESSES intense emotions without "owning" them by saying "I feel ...." When the consciousness is focused in the thinking function, unconscious feeling can totally contaminate communication. I indeed move the discussion to the emotional level in terms of acknowledging what's going on and talking about it instead of acting out. Productive intellectual exchange simply CANNOT occur in an atmosphere of bitter emotional attack-- at least not for me. > I don't know if this is relevant or not, but does anyone know if PaulJohnson's career is writing or teaching? I might be quite emotional myself if I were attempting to earn a living writing books (as opposed to participating in entertaining discussions or being occupied with my favorite pasttime or hobby). I've been a public librarian throughout my career, writing entirely as a non-remunerative sideline. My emotions (hurt, resentment mostly) at being attacked by fellow Theosophists have very little to do with my sense of self as a writer or scholar, and EVERYTHING to do with being treated as a heretic, enemy, "not really one of us" etc. The pain is in the part of me that feels, essentially, "I love Theosophy and HPB, have done my best to prove that the Masters are real, and all these people hate me for it-- WAAAH!" He seems to be a middle-aged student of theosophy whose > book contains enough research to make me believe that he is researching and writing full-time. Thanks! But maybe if I'd had full time to devote to it my research and writing would be a lot better. I'm 41 BTW. What kind of work, Paul, did you do when you were young > (or before your first book on theosophy)? Did your talent in writing come from university study? So far no one has accused me of having any, except perhaps a talent for rhetorically misleading readers into thinking there's evidence where there's none :) I did like to write term papers, though. Grace Knoche encouraged me to write for Sunrise years ago, and that was really the start, along with taking a library job that required lots of writing. BTW, for those who may have seen no reviews of The Masters Revealed, here's my report card thus far. A is strongly positive, B is somewhat positive, C is somewhat negative, D is strongly negative. Others may perceive the same reviews differently, of course: Claire Walker, in Reflections, A Edward Hower, in New York Times Book Review, A+ Joy Mills, in The Quest, A- Richard Smoley, in Parabola, B- Anon, in SF Bookdealer's Journal, B Jerry H-E, forthcoming, B- John Cooper, Australian Theosophist, A John Algeo, American Theosophist, D- John Algeo, Theosophical History, C- Plus recent favorable mentions by Stephan Hoeller in Gnosis, Jay Kinney in Gnosis, Robert Ellwood in Theosophical History. BTW all but Kinney, Smoley and possibly anon are FTS. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 17:26:47 -0700 (MST) From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Paul Johnson's list of reviews of his book and his comments on Well, I have received the July, 1995 issue of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY containing Dr. John Algeo's 15 page review of Paul Johnson's THE MASTERS REVEALED. This review points out the strengths as well as the weaknesses of Johnson's book. The review is spendidly written. I believe that the criticisms of Johnson's thesis concerning the Theosophical Masters are valid. I do hope that Paul Johnson will attempt to deal with the issues raised by Dr. Algeo in a future issue of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY. I hope that Johnson will try to rise above his own "kama-manas" reactions and will deal with the basic issues in a scholarly fashion. If Johnson will attempt to do this, he may learn something and certainly interested students and readers may also learn something. Isn't that what diallogue is all about? I have re-read my own Part I of Johnson's MASTERS REVEALED posted a week or so ago on Theos-l. Despite what Johnson's comments that the review is an attack on the kama-manas level, I believe that the issues raised are worthy of consideration. It is too bad that Johnson is not willing to comment on the issues raised. Here is a chance for dialogue; although Johnson views it as "attacks." How many times much I repeat that personally I do not dislike Paul Johnson, the human being. Why should I? My worst criticisms of P.J.'s book has been directed toward him as "author", "writer", etc. Several individuals have been upset with my criticisms of Boris de Zirkoff's research (see my article on The Secret Doctrine Vol III in the latest issue on THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST. Again, my criticisms are of B.deZ's literary statements and conclusions; not of B.De.Z as a human being. I am now planning to issue my review of THE MASTERS REVEALED in a small pamphlet since I feel certain issues need to be documented for the information of interested Theosophists, scholars, editors, etc. It would be interesting to have a dialogue, even a lively debate with Johnson but if he is against such a course of action, then so be it. I will not be writing this review for Johnson; he has had fairly full access to my criticisms (which he initially requested from me). I write for other interested, thoughtful individuals who would like access to the other side of the story. Each will have to make up his or her minds. Some may finally agree with Johnson's thesis while others will see what I am getting at and think otherwise. Unfortunately, I still do NOT understand Johnson's reasoning process on his thesis concerning K.H. and M. I am still in the dark as to his intellectual, scholarly reply and answer to the issues I have raised. I hope that possibly in the pages of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY we may gain some understanding and insights on these issues. Actually I have gained a great deal from the reading of Johnson's two books. Although I think is thesis on the Masters is "flapdoodle", his books and my attempt to understand his thesis has made many things much more understandable for me. For that alone, I thank Paul Johnson. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 21:36:40 -0700 (MST) From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Johnson's posting on Theos-l of a list of reviews of his book I will post this on theos-roots although Johnson has posted his listing of reviews of his book THE MASTERS REVEALED on theos-l. Johnson gives his "report card" of the reviews that have appeared. A review gets an A if the review is postive, i.e. contains no criticism of his book; just praise. John Algeo's review in THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST gets a D-. So you can imagine how negatively Johnson's assesses the review. Algeo's review in THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY gets a C- (I don't have Johnson's report card in front of me!). So one can conclude that Algeo's reviews are too negative for Johnson. But let me add a few comments for people's consideration: A *good* book review will show a book's strengths and also its weaknesses. To bring up a book's weaknesses is not necessarily "negative". To point out errors and give criticisms of a book is not necessarily "negative". The only question to ask is: Are the weaknesses and criticisms valid or imaginary? If the criticisms are valid and justified, how can the review be considered really negative? If the criticial points made are unfair because untrue, then one might say the review was negative, unfair and biased. According to Johnson's "report card standards", it seems that a review must be all praising to get an A! Robert Ellwood in his review of my book THE OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY gave a few criticisms of my book; he also gave it some praise. I thought it was a well-balanced review. Should I therefore give Ellwood's review a C? No, I would give it an A inspite of the criticisms. So Johnson loves John Cooper review because it is almost, if not all, prasie, but "hates" John Algeo's reviews because they contain criticisms (too many criticisms??). In my estimation, John Algeo's review in TH is well-balanced and excellent. The review gives praise for many aspects of the Johnson's book but also gives criticism where Algeo believes such criticism is justified. So I would ask interested readers and Johnson as well: Are the various criticisms to be found in the various reviews of Johnson's book justified and valid? If they are, then the book review is a good review and has done a good service to readers who may not know as much in order to judge the merits of the book. If Johnson or his supporters feel that the criticisms given in the various reviews are invalid and not merited, than surely is it not there responsibility to set the record straight? ["there" is the last sentence of course should be "their"!] The bottom line is: what are the critiisms based upon? Are they justified or not? Do the criticisms distort the truth about Johnson's book? The review of Johnson's book in the N.Y. Times Book review was an A or A+ by Johnson's standards. Must have had lots of praise for Johnson's book? But again was the praise justified or not? And as a student of theosophy, I would ask (a larger question than about Johnson's book or reviews but applicable to these also) are we as seekers of truth really interested in truth? Or are we interested in "feeling good" (a kama-manas "situation")? Truth and facts may conflict with our beliefs and opinions. Some of us may actually believe in reincarnation because it makes us feel good, gives us a sense of security, etc, etc., but is that a good criterion by which we should be seeking for the truth? I realize that truth should be put in quotation marks: "truth". And many of us may ask with Pilate? "What is truth?" Many Christians believe in God, Jesus, heaven and hell, etc, because on one level it makes them feel good, its makes sense out of nonsense and gives them security in a very insecure, dangerous world. But "feeling good" and "having a sense of security" are, in my opinion, very strange criteria to have in the search for truth? Every rational and irrational belief in this "believing world" can be fully justified by such criteria. Truth (or truth) may be a very hard commodity to come by in our world, but I would hope that theosophists would be at least trying very very hard to discover truth versus falsehood, facts versus nonsense, etc., etc. Daniel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 22:00:53 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Overhearing and Contributing michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) writes: > >I grok BFN but not OOROO - a lieutenant in Star Trek? :-) > A local expression usually meaning goodbye, a stretch from the original english (cockney I think) Hooray. You guessed it though I am a trek fan too, at the moment it is playing 4 nights a week! The original, ST:TNG and ST:DSN - a feast. > BFN > OOROO > Michelle Trekkers of the world unite! ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 22:16:52 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) writes: Hey Michelle, you're not "our" Michelle are you? (Of Michelle and Tony fame?) > I'm happy to compile the list of branches etc. I leave your other suggestions to others. A great contribution. I have been a little slow to congratulate you on your initiative - lost in the wilds of bureaucracy and academia. > In fact I was thinking about this over the last few days as the TS in America has a home page and only refers to the US for contact. I would like to add overseas contacts and include TS's orgs not based in Adyar, (I have my flak jacket on in case I need it round here, I've been lurking for a week, just got my account). I think this is a good idea, but I think someone in a later post may have objected. > BTW does anyone know who to contact about linking this info to the current home page for Wheaton? Save reinventing the wheel the info for here could be adapted for there. Paul G. ? How are thing down under? ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 17:35:09 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Win/lose kama-manas One helpful and instructive aspect of receiving plenty of criticism is learning to recognize something of how people's judgments are formulated. A couple of Theosophists have recently pointed out to me that it is crucial to understand how kama-manas operates. Reflecting on this has indeed been helpful, but I'd like to know what others of y'all think about it. Basically, the Theosophical teachings postulate that the mental faculties (manas) can be in service to either the spiritual intuition (buddhi) or the personal desire nature (kama). Or, more realistically, both, in different ways at different times. Manas by itself is a morally neutral calculator/ word processor that takes on the color of the principle "above" or "below" depending on circumstances. What differences would there be, then, between criticism of a book that comes from buddhi-manas, and criticism that comes from kama-manas? They might take the same objective facts, have no disagreements on those facts, and yet come out with drastically different evaluations. Buddhi-manasic criticism would start with a basic fraternal respect for the work and its author. Buddhi recognizes the fundamental oneness of all life, and thus does not approach situations from a win/lose perspective, but rather from a win/win outlook. So a buddhi- manasic criticism would start from the point of view that the book in question represents an effort by a well-meaning and fallible author to do his/her best at representing the truth of the topic under discussion. It would ask first, "what of value is there in this work?" Second, "what would improve it?" The kind of criticism that authors ADORE is precisely what one would associate with buddhi-manas. Things like "I see a pattern here that you have missed" or "there are depths of motivation in this character that should have been considered more thoroughly" or "the way you express this conveys an impression that I don't think is really what you mean." Of course a critic is obliged to see flaws and point them out, but from a buddhi-manasic point of view this can be done with respect for all beings and a wish to maximize the enlightenment potential of the discussion. This sort of approach is pretty rare in print; I must say however that Joy Mills exemplified it to my astonished appreciation in her review of TMR in the Quest. So understanding of what I was trying to accomplish; so gentle in pointing out the shortcomings; may all struggling authors find at least one reviewer like her! Kama-manas, on the other hand, is the mental apparatus in service to personal emotions, desires, needs. It asks first, "how does this affect my interests?" If the answer is negative, the book is then dealt with as a threat requiring a fight-or-flight response. (If the answer is positive, we have a "good review" that doesn't sincerely evaluate the work on its own terms, but only in terms of the interests of the reviewer.) There is a win/lose assumption underlying kama-manasic criticism. If the book is perceived as threatening to make the reader "lose" something (security in one's beliefs, for example) the reaction is to make the author "lose" instead. Thus, an effort to punish and humiliate, rather than to enlighten, with the goal of making the critic "win" and the author "lose." You can read this stuff any day; it's epidemic. The paradox faced by the subject of such criticism is that to buy into the win/lose paradigm is in itself to lose in a spiritual sense. You cannot play that game without being sucked down into your own kama-manas, and yet refusing to play is also defined as "losing" by your opponent. Perhaps the better part of wisdom is to conclude that you simply can't win in a struggle between two kama-manases; everyone loses. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 18:00:52 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: 1900 Letter As requested by JRC (sorry, John, but VLIN has been out of commission all this time and just came up today): A psychic and pranayamist who has got confused by the vagaries of the members. The T.S. and its members are slowly manufacturing a creed. Says a Thibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and ends in hypocrisy." How few are they who can know anything about us. Are we to be propitiated and made idols of. Is the worship of a new trinity made up of the Blessed M. Upasika [HPB] and yourself to take the place of exploded creeds. We ask not for worship of ourselves. The disciple should in no way be fettered. Beware of an Esoteric Popery. The intense desire to see Upasika reincarnate at once has raised a misleading Mayavic ideation. Upasika has useful work to do on higher planes and cannot come again so soon. The T.S. must be safely ushered into the new century. You have for some time been under deluding influences. Shun pride, vanity and love of power. Be not guided by emotion but learn to stand alone. Be accurate and critical rather than credulous. The mistakes of the past in the old religions must not be glossed over with imaginary explanations. The E.S.T. must be reformed so as to be as unsectarian and creedless as the T.S. The rules must be few and simple and acceptable to all. No one has a right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes. All who are sincere and pure minded must have admittance. The crest wave of intellectual advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship. The essence of the higher thoughts of the members in their collectivity must guide all action in the T.S. and E.S. We never try to subject to ourselves the will of another. At favourable times we let loose elevating influences which strike various persons in various ways. It is the collective aspect of many such thoughts that can give the correct note of action. We show no favours. The best corrective of error is an honest and open-minded examination of all facts subjective and objective. Misleading secrecy has given the death blow to numerous organizations. The cant about "Masters" must be silently but firmly put down. Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme Spirit alone of which one is a part. Namelessly and silently we work and the continual references to ourselves and the repetition of our names raises up a confused aura that hinders our work. You will have to leave a good deal of your emotions and credulity before you become a safe guide among the influences that will commence to work in the new cycle. The T.S. was meant to be the cornerstone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength. K.H. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:48:11 -0400 From: FRDHVY@aol.com Subject: ideals and reincarnation Liesel, On 24 June, you refered to a thought expressed by Krishnamurti related to his belief that ideals may actually be hinderences. Could you direct me to writings on this subject by Krishnamurti? I appreciate it very much. Thanks Love and Light, Fred Adam W, Your comments on belief in reincarnation mirror my life experiences. When we try to convert non-believers, we are taking a very uncharitable course. While we might like to "save the world," our real object should be self-enlightenment first and foremost, until we are complete. Our role in the greater picture should avoid denigration of the belief systems of others through coercive efforts (not only because that is not our role, but because we just might be wrong...) In the mean time, I find personal comfort in belief in reincarnation. While I seem to be doing okay in this life, I know I have a lot to learn, and could be doing better.Hopefully, I'll get it all together after a few more opportunities.. . Perhaps our lack of completeness is the cause of the insecurity we manifest when we attempt to coerce others to our belief ssystems... Love and Light, Fred From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:49:33 -0400 From: FRDHVY@aol.com Subject: more on reincarnation Adam, As I reread your comments of 6-27-95 in response to my question regarding proof of the impossibility to prove the un-truth of the concept of reincarnation, I see that you have thought through the basis of your belief in the un-truth of the concept of reincarnation, however I find you have not addressed the question I posed: Is there a logical proof that it is impossible to prove the concept of reincarnation? Or, in your words, if you so choose, is there a logical proof that it is impossible to prove a "causal link" between one life and another? While I am unaware of the existence of any logical proof of the truth of the concept of reincarnation, I am equally unaware of the existence of any logical proof that it is impossible to prove the truth of reincarnation. The fact that "I" am incapable of proving any given stataement or concept is not proof that it is impossible for someone to prove that statement or concept. (The proof of this statement is found in the demonstration of a single statement "I" am incapable of proving, but which has been proven by someone else. There are any number of textbooks of advanced mathematics devoted to my ignorance - hence, this statement is proven to be true...) I am not interested in intuitive or subjective arguements, rather pure logic to address this problem. Otherwise, our efforts to "educate" or "enlighten" others remain doomed to failure as coercive, self serving, and demeaning charades. We are, after all, seeking truth. (An aside- opinions and emotions should not be denied. We are all entitled to have opinions and feel emotions. It makes little difference in the life of the Universe as a whole, if I, as an individual, choose to believe or deny the concept of reincarnation, while it might make a real difference in how I live my life as an individual. I would like to decide what I choose to accept as true based on logic rather than emotion. If there is a convincing logical proof about reincarnation, or a proof that there is no proof, I would find that helpful as I continue with the reest of my life. It seems to me that most of the arguements I have seen on the subject are emotional or subjective, or both.) Please enlighten me. Love and light, Fred From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 15:50:00 PDT From: "Porreco, Nick - CPMQ" Subject: RE: 1900 Letter Thank you for reprinting this letter. It is an important letter, unfortunately A.B. only seemed to acknowledge the parts she wanted to. I think some of our non-theosophical bickering over the last few months could use KHs' advise as a somber note to our song. Nick. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 16:19:42 PDT From: naftaly@mdd.comm.mot.com (Naftaly Ramramkar) Subject: Re: ideals and reincarnation > Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:54:57 -0400 > From: FRDHVY@aol.com > Subject: ideals and reincarnation > Liesel, > On 24 June, you refered to a thought expressed by Krishnamurti related to his belief that ideals may actually be hinderences. Could you direct me to writings on this subject by Krishnamurti? I appreciate it very much. Thanks Love and Light, Fred > Adam W, > Your comments on belief in reincarnation mirror my life experiences. When we try to convert non-believers, we are taking a very uncharitable course. While we might like to "save the world," our real object should be self-enlightenment first and foremost, until we are complete. Our role in the greater picture should avoid denigration of the belief systems of others through coercive efforts (not only because that is not our role, but because we just might be wrong...) > In the mean time, I find personal comfort in belief in reincarnation. While I seem to be doing okay in this life, I know I have a lot to learn, and could be doing better.Hopefully, I'll get it all together after a few more opportunities.. . > Perhaps our lack of completeness is the cause of the insecurity we manifest when we attempt to coerce others to our belief ssystems... > Love and Light, Fred GREETINGS FROM VANCOUVER HERE SOME QUOTES FROM GREAT SUFI JALLAUDIN RUMI BEYOND THE IDEAS AND CONCEPTS THERE IS A FIELD I'LL MEET YOU THERE WHEN THE SOUL LIES DOWN IN THAT GRASS THE WORLD IS TOO FULL TO TALK ABOUT THE CONCEPTS, LANGUAGE AND EVEN TO PHRASE EACH OTHER DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE THEY SAY THERE IS WINDOW THAT OPENS BETWEEN TWO MINDS BUT IF THERE IS NO WALL THERE IN NO NEED TO FIT THE WINDOW NOR THE LATCH Have fun Naftaly From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:06:10 +1000 From: michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) Subject: Re: What we need is a FAQ > michelle@zip.com.au (Michelle Donald) writes: > Hey Michelle, you're not "our" Michelle are you? (Of Michelle and Tonyfame?) Sure am... :-) Tony's just arrived home - he also confirms that it is us! "Yes we haven't disappeared off the face of the Earth, either, just been hanging on by our fingernails lately. Life is certainly busy." Love Tony. > > I'm happy to compile the list of branches etc. I leave your other suggestions to others. > your initiative - lost in the wilds of bureaucracy and academia. I dont consider a few days slow, but I suppose I'm used to BBS response times which are slowwwweeerr than the net. Some of you have to work eh? re the addresses, I think I'll contact the headquaters of those orgs with lots of branches and see if they can supply the branch details as an ASCII file, then I can build an international database here which I will check in with each head office regularly to update it. I think the message Brenda left (I think it was Brenda) about having a more comprehensive info on joining the list and having these things as available as files is a good idea. To cater for others, having web pages references as well in the THEOS-L info would be good. I notice some web pages refer to this list, which is nice :-) > > In fact I was thinking about this over the last few days as the TS in America has a home page and only refers to the US for contact. I would like to add overseas contacts and include TS's orgs not based in Adyar, (I have my flak jacket on in case I need it round here, I've been lurking for a week, just got my account). > I think this is a good idea, but I think someone in a later post may have objected. Hvent seen that posting, I'm not sure that everything is getting through down here. I have seen a few replies quoting recent messages I've not seen :-( If I can find a pattern to it I'll give John Mead a buzz. > > BTW does anyone know who to contact about linking this info to the current home page for Wheaton? Save reinventing the wheel the info for here could be adapted for there. > Paul G. ? I'll email Paul G, Does anyone know who is master of Wheaton's page? > How are thing down under? COLD - even for Sydney BFN OOROO Michelle Internet michelle@zip.com.au Fidonet 3:712/505 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 06:34:33 -0700 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: Re: logos and other topics > Brenda, > Pardon my delay in response to your note of 6-19. I concur with your analysis that the soul, the spirit, and the body are adversaries. If I follow my hormones, I may violate some moral principle I have adopted; if I follow my spirit, I may deny my body physical sustenance; etc. I become complete when my soul, my spirit, and my body are one wtih the unmanifest logos- - - (at that point, I doubt very much that I will be in this world of maya...) Fred (and also Ann) The logos which is described by Ann in her dictionary post as "the rational" "the word", etc. is according to THE SECRET DOCTRINE, the lowest aspect of a "nature" that is seven-fold, just like everything else. The logos is a life, whose lowest nature is thought. Since the logos is seven-fold, when it is spoken of as three-fold, we are speaking of the three primary aspects. Unfortunately (and I don't want to disappoint you), but a seven-fold light does not make it any easier to produce completeness in your sense of the word. In Vol I. SD, p. 24-25, the First, Second, and Third Logos are discussed. Now, I don't pretend to completely understand "logos," but the definition we received, though beautiful, didn't ever stand in agreement with my immediate reaction to "What is logos?" which is to answer, "The Sun." Solar Logos is frequently found in the teachings. Since so many archaic systems have used either logos or something similar to logos, HPB tries to present them in agreement or at least in the form which they existed so we may know their differences. First Logos - highest aspect of what was written in Ann's post. Second Logos - Universe Third Logos - Man Now, it should seem that since the universe is seven-fold and man is sevenfold, how can man or one of man's aspects be part also of the Logos. Just because man is sevenfold it doesn't necessarily follow that one or more of his aspects are not necessary in any other sevenfold being. This is where "parallel universes" and mirror universes come into being. Isn't it interesting how the earth planetary scheme includes seven spheres, but also the earth has planets which are sacred to it and whose schemes influence our planetary logos and these are also sevenfold, I think. > In SD pg 14-15 fn we read "The "first" presupposes necessarily something which is the "first brought forth," "the first in time, space, and rank"- and therefore finite and conditioned. The "first" cannot be the absolute, for it is a manifestation. Therefore, Eastern Occultism calls Abstract All the "causless one cause," "the Rootless Root," and limits the "first cause" to the logos, in the sense that Plato gives the term." Your idea here is very close to linear mathematics, where 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7, How can one be one when zero exists? I prefer -7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Now is any number first? What does this speak of to you? > Unmanifest logos (causeless cause) gives rise to the manifestation of logos (cause). Manifestation of logos (cause) gives rise to expression of opposites (Jehovah-Satan; Good, Bad; Light, Darkness; Energy, Matter; etc...) When I choose to seek unmanifest logos, I seek to bring all opposites into balance by unification. ( In my personal life, I suppose I do this by dominating the expression of the oppposites in my actions... ) (This all sounds very Platonic to me, and regardless of the thoughts of others in the past and present, it makes some intuitive and logical sense to me.) Again on p. 24-25 "Put more metaphysically, the classification given here of Cosmic Ultimates, is more one of convenience than of absolute philosophical accuracy. " Your term "unmanifest logos" doesn't mean anything to me, because who is unmanifest? Is man unmanifest? Do you mean "unconscious"? Unconscious Universal Mind is the equivalent of Logos to the Western Pantheists. This is the "subject-side" says HPB, of "manifested Being." Just because something is the subject side of an object, doesn't make it "unmanifest." HPB uses the term to mean the spirit side of an object, too, but it is confusing, because then people start talking about the absolute, which is the only thing that I think is unmanifest, or perhaps a pralayic state is the real state of unmanifest. Force = the transformation into energy of the thought of the Logos. Force doesn't spring out of matter, third in order to matter and spirit originating. Force is not synchronous with something that first came forth from Mulaprakriti. Only Mulaprakriti is helpless and motionless without it. Force comes after Mulaprakriti, but Mulaprakriti may as well be a flat-bed without the action of Force upon it. > Just a note of clarification, I would add that I have a baad habit of using the word perfection and completeness as synonyms. I do not mean to use the term perfection to imply any moral system or sense of judgement. I hope I did not cause you some confusion in my previous writing. I'm repeating your words here, because I want to make a second point. > Manifestation of logos (cause) gives rise to expression of opposites (Jehovah-Satan; Good, Bad; Light, Darkness; Energy, Matter; etc...) When I choose to seek unmanifest logos, I seek to bring all opposites into balance by unification. ( In my personal life, I suppose I do this by dominating the expression of the oppposites in my actions... ) It doesn't seem right to me that "man" should be the third logos (or body of the logos). P. 25: "Moreover, Man was regarded in several systems as the THIRD LOGOS." "The LOGOS is the mirror reflecting Divine Mind, and the Universe is the mirror of the Logos, though the latter is the esse of that Universe. As the Logos reflects ALL in the Universe of Pleroma, so man reflects in himself all that he sees and finds in HIS Universe, the Earth. It is the three Heads of the Kabala." "The Sun was always called by the Egyptians "the eye of Osiris," and was himself the Logos, the first-begotten, or light made manifest to the world, "which is the Mind and divine intellect of the Concealed." It is only by the sevenfold Ray of this light that we can become cognizant of the Logos through the Demiurge, regarding the later as the creator of our planet and everything pertaining to it, and the former as the guiding Force of that "Creator" - good and bad at the same time, the origin of good and the origin of evil." My problem with what you are saying is this. While I agree with you that man can reach the realm of Universe and Logos just as if man journeys through the spirit and soul of "logos", I would not presuppose that this means a balancing of opposites in the sense that the opposites cease to exist as such. My understanding at this time points toward Man being necessary in an effort to assume the position of "soul" within the logos so that we may judge the activities of the universe as "right and wrong." In a sense maybe things happen on earth because of forces beyond our control, for instance like the Holocaust or an earthquake, but if we don't become channels for these forces and judge them so they may be directed or redirected, we are missing our calling as an integral part of the "logos." The first and second logos are so easy to mix up, because of things like "order," "soul," etc. HPB says, "The reader must bear in mind that there is a great difference between the LOGOS and the Demiourgos, for one is Spirit and the other is Soul;" I, myself, prefer to see man as the soul of the logos because we can judge right and wrong in a way that "universe" cannot. Universe almost seems more material than earth at times. One last quote from Vol II, p. 449 "Since our doctrines differ so widely from the current ideas of both Materialism and Theology, the Occultists must be ever prepared to repel the attacks of either or of both." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 06:41:11 -0700 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: Re: Win/lose kama-manas, fruits, blessings in disguise > > One helpful and instructive aspect of receiving plenty of > criticism is learning to recognize something of how people's > judgments are formulated. A couple of Theosophists have > recently pointed out to me that it is crucial to understand how > kama-manas operates. Reflecting on this has indeed been > helpful, but I'd like to know what others of y'all think about > it. I think they're only mentioning kama-manas to you, because they want to view you as "uninitiated" and they're trying to lower your standards to personality dealings. > Basically, the Theosophical teachings postulate that the mental > faculties (manas) can be in service to either the spiritual > intuition (buddhi) or the personal desire nature (kama). Or, > more realistically, both, in different ways at different > times. Manas by itself is a morally neutral calculator/ word > processor that takes on the color of the principle "above" or > "below" depending on circumstances. I think people are confusing you and your book. There are times when I look at what I have written here and just pray, "Please, don't let them connect me with what I wrote too often. I'm not at all like the person who wrote that message just one week ago." > Buddhi recognizes the fundamental oneness of all life, > and thus does not approach situations from a win/lose > perspective, but rather from a win/win outlook. So a buddhi- > manasic criticism would start from the point of view that the > book in question represents an effort by a well-meaning and > fallible author to do his/her best at representing the truth of > the topic under discussion. It would ask first, "what of value > is there in this work?" Second, "what would improve it?" The > kind of criticism that authors ADORE is precisely what one > would associate with buddhi-manas. Things like "I see a > pattern here that you have missed" or "there are depths of > motivation in this character that should have been considered > more thoroughly" or "the way you express this conveys an > impression that I don't think is really what you mean." Of > course a critic is obliged to see flaws and point them out, but > from a buddhi-manasic point of view this can be done with > respect for all beings and a wish to maximize the enlightenment > potential of the discussion. This sort of approach is pretty > rare in print; I must say however that Joy Mills exemplified it > to my astonished appreciation in her review of TMR in the Quest. > So understanding of what I was trying to accomplish; so gentle > in pointing out the shortcomings; may all struggling > authors find at least one reviewer like her! You're not talking about the buddhi-manas I know. You're just talking about kindness. Buddhi-manas has an "intuition" about right and wrong. Some of the effects of the book are good and some are bad. Some of Paul is good and some of Paul is bad. How pure you are should not be reflected here because of course, purity is stronger here. > Kama-manas, on the other hand, is the mental apparatus in > service to personal emotions, desires, needs. It asks first, > "how does this affect my interests?" If the answer is > negative, the book is then dealt with as a threat requiring a > fight-or-flight response. (If the answer is positive, we have > a "good review" that doesn't sincerely evaluate the work on its > own terms, but only in terms of the interests of the > reviewer.) There is a win/lose assumption underlying > kama-manasic criticism. If the book is perceived as > threatening to make the reader "lose" something (security in > one's beliefs, for example) the reaction is to make the author > "lose" instead. Thus, an effort to punish and humiliate, > rather than to enlighten, with the goal of making the critic > "win" and the author "lose." You can read this stuff any day; > it's epidemic. This is a more likeable testing ground, because if energy doesn't make it past kama-manas, it doesn't deserve to make it to the heaven of buddhi-manas. It may as well do a "tour of duty" in hell, because a book reviewer's concern for the author isn't apparent if the reviewer is searching for "balance" rather than "niceness." > The paradox faced by the subject of such criticism is that to > buy into the win/lose paradigm is in itself to lose in a > spiritual sense. You cannot play that game without being > sucked down into your own kama-manas, and yet refusing to play > is also defined as "losing" by your opponent. Perhaps the > better part of wisdom is to conclude that you simply can't win > in a struggle between two kama-manases; everyone loses. I once saw an interview with an author on television. He had begun to write "bestsellers" in mid-life, and reported that he had since become "estranged" to his wife and children and divorce resulted. In my estimation, this man became so taken with his own worth to society, that his arrogance and success caused him to lose what normally would be valued so highly in life, one's family and dignity. > I've been a public librarian throughout my career, writing > entirely as a non-remunerative sideline. My emotions (hurt, > resentment mostly) at being attacked by fellow Theosophists > have very little to do with my sense of self as a writer or > scholar, and EVERYTHING to do with being treated as a heretic, > enemy, "not really one of us" etc. The pain is in the part > of me that feels, essentially, "I love Theosophy and HPB, have > done my best to prove that the Masters are real, and all these > people hate me for it-- WAAAH!" You say that your writing has been non-remunerative, which is fine, but does "Kill out desire for the fruit of your actions." mean anything to you. Fruit can take many forms. You may not desire money, but you are certainly desiring "praise." If I were you, I would be really grateful for the Cs and Ds. I mean, no one is going to fail you. You have a good job. Cs and Ds are so soul-ful. They're so balanced. They're so concerned for the man and his ego and his spirit and his soul. Pain? Hurt? I always repeat to myself the teaching that if we can become truly harmless, we in turn won't be susceptible to hurt. Are you vegetarian or have you thought about trying this? > BTW, for those who may have seen no reviews of The Masters Revealed, here's my report card thus far. A is strongly positive, B is somewhat positive, C is somewhat negative, D is strongly negative. Others may perceive the same reviews differently, of course: > Claire Walker, in Reflections, A > Edward Hower, in New York Times Book Review, A+ > Joy Mills, in The Quest, A- > Richard Smoley, in Parabola, B- > Anon, in SF Bookdealer's Journal, B > Jerry H-E, forthcoming, B- > John Cooper, Australian Theosophist, A > John Algeo, American Theosophist, D- > John Algeo, Theosophical History, C- > > Plus recent favorable mentions by Stephan Hoeller in Gnosis, Jay Kinney in Gnosis, Robert Ellwood in Theosophical History. Definitely would stay with John Algeo and shun all the rest. Bye Bye friend. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 11:37:23 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Anagram fun The current issue of Newsweek lists 10 anagrams of "information superhighway" rated by some unnamed net denizens as their favorites: 1. New utopia? Horrifying sham! 2. Hi-ho! Yow! I'm surfing Arpanet! 3. Waiting for any promise, huh? 4. Inspire humanity, who go far 5. Oh, wormy infuriating phase 6. A rough whimper of insanity 7. When forming, utopia's hairy 8. Oh-oh, wiring snafu: empty air 9. Hey, ignoramus-- win profit? Ha! 10. Enormous, hairy pig with fan The amazing appropriateness of some of these led me to play with "Theosophical Society" for five minutes, coming up with "Hey, cool sophisticate!" Maybe this is/could be our marketing strategy? Baha'is may find #7 particularly relevant to their current situation. "Baha'i Faith" is too short to work, but I bet "National Spiritual Assembly" and "Universal House of Justice" would produce some interesting results. Other Theosophical terms worth playing with are "Esoteric Section," "United Lodge of Theosophists," "Great White Brotherhood." Any takers? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 07 Jul 95 12:04:11 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Logos Brenda: > "The LOGOS is the mirror reflecting Divine Mind, . . . "The Sun was always called by the Egyptians "the eye of Osiris," and was himself the Logos, the first-begotten, or light made manifest to the world, "which is the Mind and divine intellect of the Concealed." It is only by the sevenfold Ray of this light that we can become cognizant of the Logos through the Demiurge, regarding the later as the creator of our planet and everything pertaining to it, and the former as the guiding Force of that "Creator" - good and bad at the same time, the origin of good and the origin of evil." Thank you for your post and especially the part above. It truly broadened my vision on the subject. I'd posted the mundane dictionary version in the hope that it might stimulate more discussion about the Logos. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 13:48:17 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Anagram fun ES: O rise to nice sect; sincere Scottie From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 00:49:59 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Theos-xxx on line Hi -- I have just got theos-xxx back up and running. The crash this month certainly caught me off gaurd, basically because I was under the impression that Vnet was doing regular backups. As of yesterday, Vnet has started backing up the server stuff every 48 hours. Apparantly, they had quite a lively discussion as to who was responsible for that disk drive (i.e. backups). I stayed out of it, for the most part. I don't work for them, but do some volunteer work on the listserver. It is still my understanding that the disk is going to a disk salvage farm, and most things will be restored. That may take a couple weeks... I'm not sure how long. sorry for the inconvenience. I'm adding everyone to THEOS-L, THEOS-NEWS, THEOS-BUDS, THEOS-ROOTS I realize that some do not want to be on all of the lists but the logistics are somewhat messy. please feel free to signoff any list you no longer want to be on. i.e. send to listserv@vnet.net (or listproc@.vnet.net) signoff Theos-buds you can send several lines in the same message. you may want to wait untill you get confirmation that you are subscribed, else you may try to signoff before the system has added you :-) nothing works in true sequence on internet. peace - john mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:19:45 +0800 From: tspeace@mnl.sequel.net (Peace Center) Subject: Peace Ideas in WWW (TS in the Philippines) Dear John, We are pleased to let you know that Peace Ideas Newsletter is now in the World Wide Web under www.sequel.net/peace/. Peace Ideas is published by the Peace Center of the Theosophical Society in the Philippines. If you know of individuals or groups that may find it useful, please just help disseminate the information. Thank you and warm regards, Vic FROM: Vic Hao Chin, Jr. TS in the Philippines tspeace@mnl.sequel.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:13:25 -0400 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: Appreciation Greetings... As the first posting to the rebooted theos-l, I'd like to express my great appreciation to John Mead for his efforts on behalf of the list. Its really only when something happens (like a server crash) that we even become aware of the fact that some person or persons has to expend time and energy to keep lists up and running. Further, in spite of his effort, John has never given in to the temptation to impose restrictions or editorial control over the list (which more than one list owner has done). Thank you John ... you have made it possible for a number of truly stimulating discussions to take place between people who may not other- wise have had a chance to engage one another. *That's* theosophy. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:51:24 -0400 From: eldon@theosophy.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Re: Appreciation > Greetings... As the first posting to the rebooted theos-l, I'd like to express my great appreciation to John Mead for his efforts on behalf of the list. Its really only when something happens (like a server crash) that we even become aware of the fact that some person or persons has to expend time and energy to keep lists up and running. I'd like to add my appreciation as well. We too often take for granted the work done by others, until problems arise. > Further, in spite of his effort, John has never given in to the temptation to impose restrictions or editorial control over the list (which more than one list owner has done). By doing so, John provides us with an important service. Some people cannot handle the unrestricted nature of the list, and drop off after being offended by ideas they'd rather not read. Those of us who have stuck it out are better for the experience. We're provided an opporutnity to practice tolerance in a way that we may not be able to do elsewhere in life. > Thank you John ... you have made it possible for a number of truly stimulating discussions to take place between people who may not other- wise have had a chance to engage one another. *That's* theosophy. -JRC I'd say that there's a definite *content* to the study of Theosophy, and not just *process*. But the process we engage in enables us to develope both critical thinking and intuitive insight, both necessary faculties for an understanding of the deeper truths. 'theos-l' provides us both with a change to experience the *process* as well as study and think about the *content* of Theosophy. - Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:56:28 -0400 From: eldon@theosophy.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Re: Sunbow 5 Journal - Day 29, 7/21/95 The following was sent by by am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks). He indicated that it might be of interest to the list, and so I'm posting it. > > Sunbow 5 Journal: Day 29 - Friday 7/21/95 > > The walkers took a day of rest in Baltimore, beginning to focus their attention inward more deliberately. The weather was hot and humid, as it has been for some time. > > In the morning a television crew from cable channel 40 visited to learn about the walk, and to interview Tom Dostou and some of the other walkers. It went very well. The walkers hope to have a copy of the videotape after it is broadcast. > > In the evening they kindled a sacred fire, and entered the Metachan (Purification Lodge). Twenty-eight people -- all the walkers and several helpers -- formed the circle in the lodge, where they prayed for the Earth, and for the vision of their walk. Ned Pashene poured the water. > > Later, Esquau (Fire Woman) took coals from the sacred fire. She will carry and tend the fire from this point along the Atlantic coast all the way to the Pacific, as she has been instructed by the Grandmothers on the Manawaki Reserve in Quebec, and by Grandfather William Commanda. She will be the Fire Keeper. She will also help the women who are on the walk, teaching them some of the Medicine Ways she has been trained in through her life, and helping them to keep themselves strong and clear. > > Four of the walkers began a four-day fast: two men and two women. They have asked for prayers that they might have the strength to fulfill their pledge, not for themselves but for the Earth and for the Walk. The intention of their sacrifice is to purify, clarify, and strengthen the vision of the Sunbow 5 Walk for the Earth. > > The Sunbow 5 Walk began on First Encounter Beach this summer after the Eastern Door had been opened in Cape Spear, Newfoundland in June of 1993, after the Hopi elders fulfilled on Nov. 22, 1993 their ancient sacred instruction to carry a message to the leaders of the world at the House of Mica (United Nations headquarters), and after the birth of the White Buffalo Calf in August, 1994. The Sunbow 5 Walk has come about now, in the time of the Seventh Fire, with the intention of helping to unify the many colors and spiritual traditions of humanity, in support of the Earth. The walkers are striving to fulfill another ancient instruction: to carry the ancient peace teachings of this Turtle Island continent from the East to the West along the path of the Sun. They are striving to help light an Eighth Fire of peace, love, respect, and understanding. They know they must do more than talk about the teachings as ideas. They know they must live them. They know they cannot succeed alone. They know they need prayers and other help. > > On Saturday the walkers will go on toward Washington, DC, expecting to arrive there late Sunday afternoon. They will stop in the Washington area to regroup, to build their unity, and spiritual focus before heading south into Virginia and then along the Blue Ridge. > > The house trailer which has just become part of the walk has already been given a name: "The People's Embassy." It will serve as the communications headquarters for the walkers. Along with the walkie-talkies and CB radios they now have, communications should soon become easier and clearer. > > "We must stand together, the four sacred colors of humanity, as the one family that we are, in the interest of peace. We must abolish nuclear and conventional weapons of war...We must raise leaders of peace. We must unite the religions of the world as a spiritual force strong enough to prevail in peace. We (human beings) are a spiritual energy that is thousands of times stronger than nuclear energy. Our energy is the combined will of all people with the spirit of the natural world to be of one body, one heart, and one mind for peace." > > - Onondaga Chief Leon Shenandoah, Tadadaho, Iroquois Six Nations, at the Cry of the Earth Conference, UN headquarters, Nov. 22, 1993. > > - S.M. ***************************************************** > > This Journal tells the story of the Sunbow 5 Walk for the Earth, which began June 23, 1995 on First Encounter Beach, Cape Cod, MA, and will conclude February, 1996 in Santa Barbara, CA. For general information on the walk, send a request to info@sunbow5walk.org or visit our World Wide Web site: http://www.sunbow5walk.org/sunbow5 > > The Sunbow 5 Circle mailing list publishes regular journal reports from the Walk, and also discussion about and planning for the walk. You may join the Circle by sending e-mail to: > > majordomo@sunbow5walk.org > > The text of your e-mail message should read only: subscribe circle > > People who wish to receive only the Journal, with no discussion and no other e-mail postings, may subscribe to the Sunbow 5 Journal list. To subscribe send e-mail to the same majordomo@sunbow5walk.org address. The text of your e-mail message should read only: subscribe journal > > There are no charges for the mailing lists, or for any Sunbow 5 Walk information. Freely given donations to support the Walk may be sent to the Sunbow 5 Foundation, P.O. Box 954, South Orleans, MA 02662. All donations are tax-deductible. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 01:02:04 -0400 From: FRDHVY@aol.com Subject: It's great to be back online Hi, everyone, I was releaved to get the message that we are back online. It's terrible when one becomes so dependant on our computers, yet I have found the intellectual stimulation of the ongoing discussions to be a valuable part of my life. As I have alluded in previous comments, I dream a lot. Often, my dreams bring me insight, sometimes they are just dreams. I want to share some dream thoughts with you. Getting on with our discussion of cosmogenesis, our astronomers tell us that there are two types of supernovas, type two (the common ones) are huge stars that collapse onto themselves, type one (the rarer ones) that start as medium sized binary stars, rotating around each other, that collapse into each other. The result is the same. All the chemical elements we are familar with are created and released into space. Of course, the stars were formed from condensations of cosmic matter, primarily hydrogen. The essence of the supernova is recycling of matter. What happens when so much maatter accumlates that the gravitational effect is so strong that even light cannot escape? A black hole. All right, then, we have giant vacuum cleaners in space to recycle matter. Indeed, from inside a blck hole, looking out, one can imagine a scene just like described in the first and second stanzas of Dzyan. From within, the matter and energy are just waiting, waiting for a burst of energy that tips the scale so the repulsive subatomic forces overcome the gravitational forces. If you have followed me so far, stretch your imagination a little further, and imagine that the ray of light is a ray of coherent, lasar like energy, that carries within it the information of the univeral holographic master plan, millions and millions of bits of information, each a monad, each with a part of the information that leads to the organization we know as life. If you can follow this stretch of imagination, the conclusion is simple: There is nothing new in the universe. Furthermore, the teachings of HPB were about one hundred years ahead of their time. Hypotheses that may be drawn from this line of reasoning include: Space is not bounded. Stars are not necessarily all moving away from each other (ie. the universe is not expanding, and it is okay that with the Hubble telescope our astronomers are finding galaxies that seem to be colliding with each other.) Defined local regions of space may be expanding or contracting. While "our universe" clearly has life as we know it within its boundries, there is every likelyhood that there are other universes with life. (there are allusions to this possiblity in the SD when vague references are made to the possibility that there are other chains of planets during discussions of our chain of planets. Dream about these comments, if you please, and share the resulting thoughts with me. Love and light, Fred From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:45:49 -0400 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: The comet and Jupiter Hi Fred, John, and everyone just waking from a dream.... Want to imagine something that didn't seem to occur to many people at the time Jupiter was hit? Hasn't it been about one year since this celestial event? What if the comet had ignited Jupiter's flammable gases and caused the whole planet to begin blazing? The fire became hotter and hotter and couldn't be put out and then the effects began to be felt on earth and we catapulted until we began to do orbits around both of them and the earth began revolving around a set of these binary stars which Fred was talking about. Has anyone ever heard this theory discussed in any journals? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:11:13 -0400 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Theo-l rising Fred writes: > If you have followed me so far, stretch your imagination a little further, and imagine that the ray of light is a ray of coherent, lasar like energy, that carries within it the information of the univeral holographic master plan, millions and millions of bits of information, each a monad, each with a part of the information that leads to the organization we know as life. So far, reading this has been the high point of my day. Like breath of fresh prana. I was relieved to see this list back up, as well. While we waited for it to be fixed I surfed the Net and crawled the Web. I never did find anything as intelligent or as stimulating as good ole theos-l. I've been lurking on a soap opera news group, but posting is like going for a college degree. There are so many rules and regs for posting, that the brain energy it would take outstrips anything you could possibly say. Who belongs to this group? As many men as women and most are from universities across the country. There are also members from some major corporations, NASA and MIT. Although they are a very witty bunch, the intellectual stretch is nowhere near the theos list. When I'm too tired to think or need a laugh I reach for the soap. If anyone knows of anything else out there that measures up to what we got here, I sure would like to hear about it. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:04:56 -0400 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: It's great to be back online FRDHVY@aol.com writes: > As I have alluded in previous comments, I dream a lot. Often, my dreams bring me insight, sometimes they are just dreams. I want to share some dream thoughts with you. Me too, although my dreams tend to be less "cosmic" than yours. Recently I dreamt there was an original Bible which was really written by JHVH (unlike the one we've got now), and there was some possibility of reading it. NOw I want to try to dream about what was inside it. > If you have followed me so far, stretch your imagination a little further, and imagine that the ray of light is a ray of coherent, lasar like energy, that carries within it the information of the univeral holographic master plan, millions and millions of bits of information, each a monad, each with a part of the information that leads to the organization we know as life. More than just carrying information, it is actually sentient. > If you can follow this stretch of imagination, the conclusion is simple: There is nothing new in the universe. We can worry less about the destruction of civilization the planet etc,. because the essence of it will be preserved somehow, though not in the same form it is now, probably... Furthermore, the teachings of HPB > were about one hundred years ahead of their time. Je suis d'accord. I've noticed this too. > Dream about these comments, if you please, and share the resulting thoughts with me. Do you think time travel is possible? ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:08:21 -0400 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Appreciation jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu writes: > Greetings... As the first posting to the rebooted theos-l, I'd like to express my great appreciation to John Mead for his efforts on behalf of the list. I would like to join in that vote of thanks, ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:07:38 -0400 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Thanks Ann Dear Ann The Smithsonian arrived, thanks very much. Great picture of M.! And good articles too. Interesting that people are still writing articles about HPB etc. I see "our" Paul is again quoted as an authority (probably I shouldn't mention that! :-) Also, I appreciate very much the wonderful picture of Osiris as Lord of the Underworld, who is currently gracing the wall of my office at work, to remind me of the Other Side! love from ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:23:38 -0400 From: "judy a cilcain" Subject: jupiter Brenda, I forwarded your query to my partner, David S. Cargo, and he responded thusly: "If Jupiter could burn, it would have already happened. The comet did generate a lot of heat, but it couldn't ignite what was already there. It also would not have been able to ignite a fusion reaction turning Jupiter into a temporary star. Jupiter isn't dense enough for that. Jupiter's gases are flammable, but only with oxygen, which doesn't exist in significant quantity in Jupiter's atmosphere. "Even if Jupiter burned (or fused) the gravity that controls the planets' orbits would not have been affected; orbits would not have changed." Peace to all... Judy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:11:04 -0400 From: "Murray Stentiford, Scientific Software and Systems Ltd"@vnet.net Subject: Online with the planets I, too, would like to say how much I appreciate John Mead's efforts to get the Lists up and running again. Since I joined last September, the people on the list, and the group consciousness itself, have become welcome companions on my daily way. My only regret is that I didn't have time to contribute more but, as Annie Besant observed, what you have not time to do is not your work. Thinking of planets and space, I've just been reading Geoffrey Hodson's posthumous book "The Yogic Ascent to Spiritual Heights" and somewhere there it talks about the mighty spiritual presences associated with the planets, the sun, and other stars, saying that as we unfold on our way to Adeptship, these beings become living realities and influences within our field of consciousness. Perhaps this is the way space travel is done - not by physical translation but by expansion of the field of our self awareness to reach, touch, coalesce with, become one with, ... and realise our existence in a web that goes far beyond our planet. Love and greetings to all Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:27:07 -0400 From: "judy a cilcain" Subject: Re: Online with the planets > Perhaps this is the way space travel is done - not by physical translation but by expansion of the field of our self awareness to reach, touch, coalesce with, become one with, ... and realise our existence in a web that goes far beyond our planet. Murray, there are so many good science fiction/fantasy books out there now that deal with this kind of concept. Anne McCaffrey's "Damia" books come quickly to mind. Science again validating theosophy? Peace... Judy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 18:02:53 -0400 From: "Murray Stentiford, Scientific Software and Systems Ltd"@vnet.net Subject: Re: Online with the planets > > Perhaps this is the way space travel is done - not by physical translation but by expansion of the field of our self awareness to reach, touch, coalesce with, become one with, ... and realise our existence in a web that goes far beyond our planet. > Murray, there are so many good science fiction/fantasy books out there now that deal with this kind of concept. Anne McCaffrey's "Damia" books come quickly to mind. Science again validating theosophy? Judy, It's pretty exciting that explorers in the guise of writers are coming back with this sort of thing. Thanks for mentioning Anne McCaffrey - I haven't read any of her stuff yet. Re science validating theosophy, I think both are about making the individual insight or discovery public. Come to think of it, so is writing. The fact that the progress of science is such a public enterprise is at once a positive for humanity and a huge liability, making it slow, conflict-ridden, and slow, compared with what the arrow of individual consciousness can achieve when it is able. Murray Stentiford From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 21:43:00 -0400 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: Re:THE MASTERS REVEALED Dear Paul, I nearly finished IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS and began reading THE MASTERS REVEALED. I'd like to comment on a quote which you made on p. 50 of MR. This letter from HPB was first published in 1947 and reads: "My Masters and the Masters are Yogis and Munis de facto, not de jure; in their life not in appearance. They are members of an occult brotherhood, not of any particular school in India. One of their highest Mahachohans lived in Egypt and went to Tibet only a year before we did (in 1878) and he is neither a Tibetan nor a Hindu....its origin is of untold antiquity, and is as much Masonic as present Masonry is little Masonic." You feel that when she says "we" she is referring to herself and Olcott. This struck me as an odd interpretation and so I did a little research in regards to their whereabouts in 1879. I found a quote I think you might be interested in, but I also wish to point out that she and Olcott are not subjects of this quote a single time. She does separate in a strange way her Masters from The Masters, so "we" could easily be used to refer to "our side." Her Masters are "we" as they are responsible for The Theosophical Society in its early inception. She also uses the term "its" to refer to "the Brotherhood" and I think this is a little confusing as she could easily be speaking of the Mahachohan. Of course your main point is to compare HPB's whereabouts with Afghani's whereabouts and to prove that they were always winding up in the same place at the same time. Places being India, Tbilisi and area, Cairo, Paris, and India again. Is there any reason why India isn't pinpointed to a city and its area as the others are? I'm not sure why you're trying to fit this quote in here in regards to Afghani, but I found a reference in H.P. BLAVATSKY AND THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT by Charles J. Ryan. My copy is a 1975 edition published by Point Loma Publications and on p. 95 states: "They have no desire to start a new superstitious worship of saints or godlings. Owing to misconception of a statement by the Master K.H. that he could not endure "the stifling magnetism" of even his own countrymen for any length of time and was obliged to return to Tibet (M.L. 12), it was suggested that no Adepts remained in India. Apparently in order to correct this, H.P.Blavatsky wrote the following explanation of the real conditions: European and even Hindu students of Occultism are often deploring and even wondering, why all the "Initiates" or "adepts" seem to have died out in India? They have not "died" out, nor, is their absence due to "Kali Yug" as popularly yet erroneously supposed. The "adepts" have simply and gradually if not altogether forsaken India, at least retired from its public populated portions, keeping their knowledge and often their very existence as secret as they can. Many of them are gone beyond the Himalayas. Some yet remain--especially in Southern India, but few are the privileged ones who know of them; still fewer those who could point out their places of retreat. --Theos., III, 135, Feb., 1882 One of these Southern Indian Adepts was the Master Narayan, who telepathically dictated parts of ISIS UNVEILED when H. P. Blavatsky was in New York, and later," (the author lists some additional material)...... It says in this book that the "Master Narayan lived at Tiruvallum, a retired spot in Southern India, a landed proprietor to all appearance," etc. I was wondering if you had any information regarding this person or had included him in your search. To be honest, this is the first time that I heard of this Master in over 20 years of membership in the T.S. Couldn't H.P.B. be referring to this exodus from India when speaking of an 1879 departure to Tibet? Were you aware of this? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:09:38 -0400 From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: (none) I am forwarding a comparison I made 3 weeks ago just when Theos-l, etc. crashed. The first 3 or 4 screens contain the message undeliverable, ,etc. Starting on the 4th or 5th screen of the posting is a comparison betwen David Lane's book on Eckankar and Paul Johnson's book on Theosophy and HPB. Daniel P.S. Again thanks to the individuals who have sent me e-mail on my review comments on Johnson's The Masters Revealed. I have continued my research on his book and will be posting more comments in the near future on Theos-roots. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:12:34 -0400 From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Comparison between Lane's book on Eckankar and Johnson's book on In my attempt to do a review of Paul Johnson's book THE MASTERS REVEALED, I thought it might be of some use and of some interest to compare Johnson's TMR with another book entitled THE MAKING OF A SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT: The Untold Story of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar by David Christopher Lane. This book has been through a number of editions. Del Mar Press first published the book in a paperback edition in 1983. I will refer to the 1989, Special Unedited Version. Students of Theosophy would do well to read this work by David Lane. I have known Lane for a number of years, have met with him several times in San Diego, and have carefully looked at his documentation in the book. I find that Lane is a careful researcher who documents his facts and who is given to little speculation. He tries to ask relevant questions and let the documents speak for themselves (as much as that is possible). Let us first look at the theme or thesis of TMR by Johnson. I will repeat Dr. Godwin's summing up of Johnson's thesis: "The theme of this book is that HPB's Masters were not the Himalayan sages whom she invented to distract her co-workers....Mr. Johnson's suggestion ..is that the Mahatmas Morya and Koot Hoomi are fictitious Tibetan personae that conceal well-documented historical figures: Ranbir Singh and Thakar Singh...." TMR, p. xviii David Lane in his book THE MAKING OF A SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT (hereafter called TMOASM) writes: "Documented research indicates that Paul Twitchell created the character REbazar Tarzs, basing the monk's life story on the biographies of Kabir, Shiv Dayal Singh, Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, and several other real life gurus. This finding, however, is known only to a few members of Eckankar...." (p. 64) For those of you who know little about Paul Twitchell, I will briefly say that in 1965 Paul Twitchell founded an organization called Eckankar. He claimed that he was in contact with a group of Adepts or Masters. These Masters had commissioned him to reveal the teachings and practices of Eckankar to the world and to interested seekers of truth. Twitchell claimed that he came into contact with Rebazar Tarzs, "a Tibetan monk supposedly over five-hundred years old." Twitchell also claims he was taught in India by a guru named Sudar Singh. There is much more to this story but this will give the reader a glimpse of what Twitchell was claiming. David Lane writes: "Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs, though their existence is factual to some extent as `cover names' for real gurus, are actually mythological characterizations of Twitchell's genuine and imagine biography. In order to start a `new' movement , Paul Twitchell attempted to cover up is previous association with Kirpal Singh [a real guru in the Radhasoami movement of India]...and tried to create a mythology which made him and his group, Eckankar, a fulcrum for a unique and superior spiritual revelation." (p. 96) Paul Johnson has a *similar* (I didn't say identical) thesis concerning what H.P. Blavatsky did. According to Johnson, Blavatsky knew personally Ranbir Singh, the Maharaja of Kashmir and Thakar Singh of Lahore. She created and substained the Theosophical movement with their help (and with the help of others). She created "cover names", "fictitious personae", "fictional characters" or "mythological characterizations" to hide these real flesh and blood people. In other words, she created the fictional characters of Morya and Koot Hoomi much as Paul Twitchell did when he created "Rebazar Tarzs", "Sudar Singh" and other Vairagi Masters. In John Algeo's review of Johnson's TMR (see July, 1995 issue of THESOPHICAL HISTORY), several pages are devoted to outlining Johnson's thesis and pointing out some of the problems with this thesis. Algeo writes: "The hypothesis [by Johnson about the Masters] cannot be proved because there is no single bit of clear, unambiguous evidence demonstrating that Master X is modeled on historical person Y. There is no smoking gun. And in the nature of the subject, it is hard to see how there could be unless a statement of Blavatsky's turns up to the effect that she created the figure of Master X on the model of person Y." (p. 238) Turning to David Lane's research on Paul Twitchell, David Lane found a "smoking gun." Plenty of guns! All of this is carefully documented in David Lane's book. In the early 1960s, Twitchell wrote articles for various magazines in which he mentions various masters by name and gives specifics, but in 1965 and after he rewrote these articles and edited out the original names of the various masters and plugged in different names. Many examples of a smoking gun could be given but I will only quote one. After the founding of Eckankar, Paul Twitchell published a book in 1967 called THE TIGER'S FANG. In this book, Twitchell was taken out of the body and given a tour of the higher, spiritual worlds by the Master Rebazar Tarz. But David Lane in his research found the following statement by Paul Twitchell in a 1964 magazine article: "Master Kirpal Singh spoke briefly of these masters when he took me through the several invisible worlds in 1957. The story of this trip has been recorded in my book `The Tiger's Fang'." In another magazine article from 1964, Twitchell wrote: "I have talked with and taken down the words of Kirpal Singh who appeared in my apartment in...his light body, although his physical body was six- thousand miles away in India." At a later date (late 60s or early 70s) Kirpal Singh told the following: "I tell you one American was initiated by me....Then he wrote to me, `The Master's Form appears to me inside.' That form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963. Later he sent me another letter, `Return my book, The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. He changed that book before printing; where he mentioned my name, he changed it to another's guru's name...." A pretty good smoking gun! (see pp. 20 and 23 of Lane's book for all the above-quoted documentation.) As far as I can see, Paul Johnson does not have such a smoking gun in the case of HPB and her Masters. Anyway, I thought some readers of Theos-roots might be interested in this comparison of David Lane's thesis concerning Paul Twitchell with Paul Johnson's theis concerning H.P. Blavatsky. Daniel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:52:24 -0400 From: djbesant@ix.netcom.com (David Besant) Subject: Theo-l rising "Ann E. Bermingham": If anyone knows of anything else out there that measures up to what we got here, I sure would like to hear about it. - ann The following usenet group my be of interest to you and others. I find much of the reading to be stimulating. It makes for great adjunct material while reading Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace". Enjoy. "I can feel it. I can feel it Dave. I can feel it" - HAL9000 3721087@mcimail.com / 71141.2133@compuserve.com David.Besant@Launchpad.unc.edu / djbesant@ix.netcom.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 01:22:11 -0400 From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Loose Threads Mega-dittos of appreciation to John Mead for helping the theos lists survive the crashes. This is the second crash since I posted last. I have been following the threads, but at a distance, maybe the re-booting is symbolic of a reincarnation of the collective thought-form we are creating in cyberspace. My attempt to reweave some loose threads may do more damage than good, but here goes: 1) What's in a name? Would a Master by any other name smell? It seems we have many names for similar entities. Jung pointed out in the 1950's that people used to see angels, now they see aliens from other planets or spiritual dimensions and they all could be reduced (or expanded) to include the archetypes of "Great Beings" that direct psychological and spiritual energies. I find Paul's ideas fascinating because they reintroduce the environment and millieu of the fin de siecle, turn of the century. Names like Sir Richard Burton bring up fantasies of intrigue, the mysterious, not to mention the Kama Sutra. Other insights into the political machinations of the carabeneri (help me on the spelling) and the illuminati and masonry make for a romantic and exotic mix of romanticism, spirtualism, conspiracy and a little high decadence. ( You can practically smell the incense, see the oriental finery and architecture and glimpse the shadowy comings and goings of the historical characters superimposed on the dim images (to me) of the Masters.) Alas one can almost long for the days when theosophy had the underside of real people pulling the strings of the "inner world government." But nostalgic fantasies don't make a foundation for the spiritual needs so obvious at our "turn of the century." 2) Lucid dreaming - Dream along with me, we on our way to the stars! - Perry Como Lucid dreaming seems to validate the idea of parallel universes and, if not time travel, then travel to alternate universes that coincide, interpenetrate, exfoliate. Someone in our lodge gave a talk about "The Philadelphia Experiment" and Montauk which suggested that if you can control 3 or the basic forces in the universe (gravity, the strong force and the weak force) you might be able to move through space-time. 3) The New Age and The Second Coming (with or without the Anti-Christ) - It seems that many people believe that beings from other places have had intercourse ( in the sense of communication) with humanity and that this process is speeding up somehow to some critical point. In the past they were called angels, masters, adepts. Today aliens, spiritual entities in channeling etc. It is amazing how some of the ideas of mission, movement, charasmatic "Lord", occult symbols (swastika) and terminology ("Aryan") where bandied about by the Nazis. One would hope that if we get a new world teacher, it will be of the more benign variety. It seems the emporer has no clothes and the government will have no funds for all the expected Medicare, welfare, education etc. entitlements. The Texas Federation had it annual meeting and the subject was the millenium. We had speakers from Ba'hai, Zoratrianism, Christianiny, theosophy, native American traditions etc. The conclusion seemed to be that the year 2000 will come and go much like any other year, but the idea as turning point in history is still powerful indeed. Have you ever seen a dream walking? Have you ever heard a Master talking? Have you ever been an alien traveling? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 01:56:49 -0400 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: Online with the planets "Murray Stentiford, Scientific Software and Systems Ltd"@vnet.net writes: > Thinking of planets and space, I've just been reading Geoffrey Hodson's posthumous book "The Yogic Ascent to Spiritual Heights" and somewhere A fantastic book. It will bear reading many times, in many ways. > Perhaps this is the way space travel is done - not by physical Today in the UK, and on various other TV networks around the world, (including Fox in the US) there will be a documentary shown about the Roswell Incident -- an alleged UFO crash in 1947 that was covered up by the US Air Force. The most interesting "evidence" that they will produce is film footage of an autopsy of three non-human bipeds. I have seen stills from the film, and many journalists and surgeons who have seen the film state that it would be very difficult to fake. The film raises a number of questions. Like Murray, I assumed that there probably are things seen by people in the sky, but that they may be etheric beings, devas, elementals, even manifested symbols from the collective unconsciousness, but that the physical limitations of interstellar travel would make physical visitors to our world very unlikely. I am aware that UFOs are a "fringe" subject even within the T.S., but note that nothing that HPB writes suggests that they cannot exist, and that many theosophists would agree that life probably exists elsewhere in the universe. Intellectually, however, I have always resisted the claims of the UFOnauts, feeling that some other explanation is at work. The possibility that physical evidence now exists has made me reevaluate this position. I would be curious to hear from fellow list-members on this matter. Here are some other possibilities: 1. It's an elaborate and expensive hoax to discredit UFOnauts. This raises possibilities in itself. 2. Aliens have crash-landed. 3. They're not alien, they're just another species who have shared this planet for millions of years, but remain hidden. Ref. Bulwer-Lytton et al. 4. They're humans, but from the future when thousands of years of environmental degradation have caused humanity to mutate in various ways. Now their race is dwindling, and they are trying to restock by collecting eggs and semen, as well as trying to influence opinion by abducting talk-show attendees and showing them videos of environmental disasters. 5. They're from a different dimension, and plan an invasion. 5 x :-) cheers Paul Gillingwater From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:02:58 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: Loose Threads > It seems the emporer has no clothes and the government will have no funds for all the expected Medicare, welfare, education etc. entitlements. Interesting you should mention this, theres been much discussion about what to do about this, from a spiritual/theosophical perspective on the forums and e-lists that I browse through. The solution seems to be natural societal evolution in economic freedom with a practical emphasis on right relationships. * The spiritual revelations generally anticipated over the next few years certainly make for interesting dialogue (anyone heard any more about the new chamber found in the Great Pyramid [up one of shafts in the Queen's chamber] found a couple of years ago by the German archeological team?). "The truth shall set you free." "...and the greatest of these is Love." Peace, Patrick * An article called "Economics & Freedom: A Civilized World" has been written (for a conventional scientific audience) but based on the principles of freedom and right relationships which shows how this natural eco-social evolution would work and suggests a practical plan for bringing it about. If you wish you can get a copy by sending the message "get eco-freedom" to the e-mail address "aprioripaa@aol.com". From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:36:18 -0400 From: brenda@theosophy.com (Brenda S. Tucker) Subject: Re:THE MASTERS REVEALED Paul and others, I did some more searching in Ryan's book H.P.BLAVATSKY and found a reference to an asrama or retreat in the Himalayan jungle in Sikkhim. At this ashram she found M and KH with several of their chelas. I don't know if you ever were made aware of this place because I don't remember it being mentioned in either book. The story is that she was ill and received medicine extracted from a Himalayan plant which she had to take seven times a day, and that within three days she was perfectly well. (This found on p. 133.) In the year 1882 it was the end of the first seven years since The Theosophical Society's inception. The book states that in this initial period it was necessary for Masters and chelas to "take a more open and active part than was possible in later years. Efforts were made by them to form an 'Inner Group' at Simla, in order to study in preparation for deeper teachings, and it dragged along for several years." It says very little came from this effort. The inner group had to be abandoned in 1885. Another reference to KH is placing him at The Golden Temple of the Sikhs at Amritsar. There is much about this temple in Paul's books. It says K.H. was there in October 1880 when Olcott and Blavatsky visited there. K.H. refers to this on p. 12 of ML? (This was probably just a short visit, don't you think?) Bye for now, Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:50:44 -0400 From: JK1Carp@aol.com Subject: Theosophy Lodge Online August Program Theosophy Lodge Online Program - August 1995 Live Discussions are held every Wednesday Evening: August 2, "The Three Fundamentals", 101 (article number) August 9, "Universal Applications of Doctrine", 140 August 16, "Recognition of Law", 128 August 23, "The Philosophy of Perfection", 110 August 30, "Mahatmas and Chelas", 118 Meetings begin at 10:00 pm and end at 11:30 pm EDT. The meetings are based on articles (listed above) which can be read online or downloaded. All are welcome to attend. Theosophy Lodge Online can be reached any time at: Telnet: theosophy.org (205.197.25.2) WWW: enter "telnet://theosophy.org" as the URL (without the quotes) Direct Dial: (301) 942-4312 at 9600 bps All nodes may be busy -- please try again! Correspondence may be conducted on Theosophy Lodge Online or be directed to jk1carp@aol.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:54:12 -0400 From: JK1Carp@aol.com Subject: Re: Theo-l rising > If anyone knows of anything else out there that measures up to what we got here, I sure would like to hear about it. Please see the posting of the current program for Theosophy Lodge Online, you may find it worthwhile to check out. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 15:17:21 -0400 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: UFO interest Paul G. writes: > The film raises a number of questions. Like Murray, I assumed that there probably are things seen by people in the sky, but that they may be etheric beings, devas, elementals, even manifested symbols from the collective unconsciousness, but that the physical limitations of interstellar travel would make physical visitors to our world very unlikely. > The possibility that physical evidence now exists has made me reevaluate this position. I would be curious to hear from fellow list-members on this matter. The best book I've ever read on the subject is called "Human Encounters with Aliens: Abduction" by John E. Mack, MD, who is a Pulitzer Prize winner and a Harvard psychiatrist. He worked with people who had been abducted, trying to deal with their traumas. He also brings in a lot of spiritual aspects to their experiences, as some of his patients feel they have grown spiritually from their UFO contacts. The book was published last year by Scribners. I became interested in Dr. Mack when I saw him at the World Parliament of Religions. Although one of my friends laughed when I said I was attending his lecture, they had to move the group to a larger room because so many people had attended. Even so, others had to sit on the floor or stand out in the hall. At that time, Dr. Mack had stated that he'd suspected that the aliens were coming from another dimension because they could move themselves and others through solid walls and windows. They also show evidence of telepathy. I got interested in this subject as a result of my writing research. One of my characters and his wife are abducted in the desert and I wanted it to be realistically written as possible. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:57:21 -0400 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: To touch the planets Murray Stentiford writes: > Perhaps this is the way space travel is done - not by physical translation but by expansion of the field of our self awareness to reach, touch, coalesce with, become one with, ... and realise our existence in a web that goes far beyond our planet. This reminded me of a wonderful episode of the television series called The Twilight Zone, broadcast several years ago. It was set in the future, after a nuclear holocaust had destroyed most of mankind. Those left were dedicated to peace, respect for the earth and had developed advanced psychic powers. A man who had been frozen from the time before the great destruction was revived because he had technological knowledge they needed. They did psychic surgery on him to remove his cancer and gave him a computer. They wanted him to detonate a bomb that was on a ship circling the planet. The ship contained all the leaders that had been responsible for the nuclear destruction of the planet. They had gone into suspended animation and would be awakened when the earth had become habitable again, ready to take over. Needless to say, the man did destroy the ship and they rewarded him with a psychic trip to the planets, which was beautifully presented on the screen. I found this whole episode quite unique for television. This story was written by Rene Ecchevaria, who went on to do a lot work for the spin-off series of Star Trek. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 18:52:09 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: UFO interest > The best book I've ever read on the subject is called "Human Encounters with Aliens: Abduction" by John E. Mack, MD, who is a Pulitzer Prize winner and a Harvard psychiatrist. He worked with people who had been abducted, trying to deal with their traumas. He also brings in a lot of spiritual aspects to their experiences, as some of his patients feel they have grown spiritually from their UFO contacts. The book was published last year by Scribners. > I got interested in this subject as a result of my writing research. One of my characters and his wife are abducted in the desert and I wanted it to be realistically written as possible. Lets see,if space aliens are abducting people (naughty naughty) then no doubt they need a good spanking to teach them proper interplanetary civility!. As a native Texan I'm happy to oblige -- but alas they always run away from me. I wonder ...... is a a sense of humor a part of interstellar relationships?..... Yours in peace, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 20:08:06 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Keith: Space-Time Travel First of all, a big thanks to John for keeping theos-l afloat. I was bounced off for over a month and am just playing catchup. Keith: Keith, we all move through space-time now! I have to assume that you mean going into the past or future or to a planet or another solar system (?). A recent science book by Kip Thorn describes what is required for time travel, and it will not be within our lifetime. As I put forth in my Enochian Physics, time travel is not possible for physical objects, but it _is_ possible for the mind, which travels at the speed of thought (which I am assuming to be faster than the speed of light, which itself is a limit only for objects with physical mass). Nothing with mass can travel faster than light, at least according to Einstein. However, quantum physics has already shown that photons (light in the form of particles rather than waves) can travel faster - only the average photons go the speed of light: a small portion goes faster while another small portion goes slower. I also recall reading somewhere that HPB says that living bodies cannot be decomposed, moved, and then recomposed in another place and maintain life. In other words, "beam me up, Scotty" is strictly science fiction. Although she writes about this in terms of teleportation, I have to assume that it is also true for any scientific teleport machine. Keith: < It seems that many people believe that beings from other places have had intercourse ( in the sense of communication) with humanity and that this process is speeding up somehow to some critical point.> HPB warns of just this sort of thing happening about now. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 20:43:30 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: Re to Keith: Space-Time Travel > Keith: < It seems that many people believe that beings from other places have had intercourse ( in the sense of communication) with humanity and that this process is speeding up somehow to some critical point.> > HPB warns of just this sort of thing happening about now. > Jerry S. Actually, I believe that what she emphasized is that humanity will have those who will solve our own problems and pave the way tpward the future civilization. We must depend upon ourselves in line with the principle of freedom. Peace, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 22:45:38 -0400 From: FRDHVY@aol.com Subject: set theory and infinate series Hi Brenda, Sorry I'm so slow to respond to my mail. I have been thinking about the discussion we had a few weeks ago about infinate series, and the two special case sets, the set of {0,1,2,3,4...} and the set {...-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3...} I had used the term "unmanifest" and refered to the point "0". When I used the word "unmanifest", I probably should have used the term "Unmanifest potential." The zero point in these two sets is not identical. O in the first set is the starting point. There is no balance of points on eihter side, where, you are correct, 0 is balanced by equal, infinate numberes of integers on wither side in the second set. It is my understanding of the footnote that HPB is talking about the idea mathematically represented by 0 in the set of positive integers. I don't understand these portions in the SD as being about balance On a more current topic, I like your idea of a thought experiment involving a change in the orbit of our planet earth. Our astronomers have set some mathematical parameters dealing with the sizes of mass necessary to create black holes and other heavenly bodies. There are a large number of possibilities for this type of thought experiment. Unfortunately, or perhaps, fortunately, environmental conditions compatible with life as we know it are quite limited, and these experiments are only possible as thought experiments. This is the stuff of dreams, yet there may be insights about the nature of our physical world to be gleaned. I will probably add this type of thought experiment to my list of experiments to pursue. Any comments? Love and light, Fred From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 13:39:15 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Theosophy and Cyberspace talk to be presented at Wheaton (8/1/95) This talk will be presented at TSA Wheaton at 7:30 PM this Tuesday evening (Aug. 1, 1995). ALSO: A Multi-Media/WWW/Internet etc. Demonstration is Planned. (time, place, etc. is still being decided) peace - john mead p.s. Don is finishing his PhD in NeuroPhysiology. Also, he has authored several research articles in current professional journals (peer-reviewed). Please send e-mail to theos@netcom.com if you would like TSA to video-tape his talk for future distribution. I have had several discussions with Don regarding this talk, and I expect it to be a GOOD one. "Speaker: Don DeGracia Title of Talk: Theosophy and Cyberspace Synopsis: This talk will have two main goals: 1. to broadly define the term "cyberspace", and 2. to show how cyberspace can be of use to theosophists as individuals and to the Theosophical Society as a whole. Cyberspace refers to the world-wide telecommunications networks and the information that passes through these networks. The internet and online services are discussed. Some time is devoted to the content of cyberspace and even the esoteric implications of cyberspace. Next, it is shown how the communication tools of cyberspace can be used by theosophists. Discussion is given of theosophical material already available in cyberspace. And strategies for increasing the presence of Theosophy in cyberspace will be presented." A discussion session will follow. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:16:06 -0400 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: UFO humor Patrick writes: > Lets see,if space aliens are abducting people (naughty naughty) then no doubt they need a good spanking to teach them proper interplanetary civility!. As a native Texan I'm happy to oblige -- but alas they always run away from me. I wonder ...... is a a sense of humor a part of interstellar relationships?..... Definitely. When confronted by someone or something that seems to be totally alien from yourself and has a higher level of technology, you need all the sense of humor you can muster. If you're hankering for an alien connection, why not carve out a sign in your back forty and ask them to a good ole fashioned Texas barbecue. The only problem is, no one knows what or if they eat. : - ))) - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:36:57 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: UFO humor > If you're hankering for an alien connection, why not carve out a sign in your back forty and ask them to a good ole fashioned Texas barbecue. The only problem is, no one knows what or if they eat. : - ))) > - ann Sorry, don't have a back forty (don't eat meat either -- could have a veggie barbecue though) -- I wonder if they'd ever go to a ball game with me, or do they have interplanetary sporting events? If you run across any let 'em know they need to learn some good manners (this hiding in the backwoods stuff is most impolite!). Peace, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:16:55 -0400 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Space-Time Travel Jerry S. writes: > HPB warns of just this sort of thing happening about now. (Beings from other planets having communication with humanity.) Did HPB have any commentary on how this type of contact would affect our religious concepts and our view of history? How it would affect the way we looked at ourselves as part of the universe? So far, we've seemed to had the cosmos all to ourselves. Contacting another life form could change our idea of who God is, skew the creation myth and bring up questions of what type of god another life form would worship (if they worshiped at all). -ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 16:42:12 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: missing thanks to others Hi - I appreciate the thanks I've received, and hope to deserve them. I would like to point out MY thanks to Eldon Tucker (and some others probably) who helped to resurrect/construct a subscription list from which to start things off to as close to "normal" as possible. Also, the online Library needs to be rebuilt. Although I expect Vnet to recover MOST of it (hopefully all), we should probably start to gather things up on our own. Hence send in (direct to jem@vnet.net ) items you want there. Please mark the SUBJECT as THEOS Library, or other, to make sure I don't miss it in my daily mail (which consists of about 85 msg's per day of total JUNK -- which I quickly delete). as an aside -- there were a few items sent to me which I had not found time (or effort) to add before the Crash of '95. Feel free to resend in past items too. Also send in New ones if you wish. (any Astrologer's care to give a hind-sight analysis of the July crash?). peace - john mead p.s. I spent Sat. morning resurrecting the Panther-Net list at Vnet. As it turned out, It was received well :-) BTW -- that was the FIRST football game I've watched from start to finish since 1978. I hope this is not a sign of premature senility. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 16:56:33 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: missing thanks to others > I appreciate the thanks I've received, and hope to deserve them. I realized after sending this that the above may be misread. The intent was to say: I appreciate the thanks I've received, and someday hope to deserve them. peace - john mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:21:15 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: missing thanks to others > (any Astrologer's care to give a hind-sight analysis of the July crash?). Well, there have been some outer planet aspects...good time for restructuring! Peace, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:38:18 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Ann writes: > Did HPB have any commentary on how this type of contact would affect our religious concepts and our view of history? How it would affect the way we looked at ourselves as part of the universe? So far, we've seemed to had the cosmos all to ourselves. Contacting another life form could change our idea of who God is, skew the creation myth and bring up questions of what type of god another life form would worship (if they worshiped at all). > -ann Your question is similar to one I have been pondering. What are the reasons and implications of the rise in fundamentalism around the world? I would be interested in others comments. Lewis llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:09:02 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: According to Lewis Lucas: > Your question is similar to one I have been pondering. What are the reasons and implications of the rise in fundamentalism around the world? I would be interested in others comments. Dear Lewis-- This question has arisen on alt.astrology in relation to the entry of Uranus into Aquarius and Pluto into Sagittarius. In both cases, the planet is going from a conservative sign into a progressive one. But there is an unleashing of compulsive "acting out" behavior associated with both transitions. The Uranus change may be mostly related to political upheaval, but Pluto in Sag is expected (by the posters on a.a.) to bring a long siege of fundamentalist and other religious disruptions. Not so much a rise in fundamentalism, which has been around forever, but a rise in people feeling compelled to act out their convictions. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:23:18 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re:THE MASTERS REVEALED According to Brenda S. Tucker: > Paul and others, > I did some more searching in Ryan's book H.P.BLAVATSKY and found a reference to an asrama or retreat in the Himalayan jungle in Sikkhim. At this ashram she found M and KH with several of their chelas. I don't know if you ever were made aware of this place because I don't remember it being mentioned in either book. The story is that she was ill and received medicine extracted Ghum is referred to by HPB as in Sikkim, but it wasn't. This Himalayan monastery was visited by HPB in 1882 and has other links to the Masters that are discussed in Initiates. > Another reference to KH is placing him at The Golden Temple of the Sikhs at Amritsar. There is much about this temple in Paul's books. It says K.H. was there in October 1880 when Olcott and Blavatsky visited there. K.H. refers to this on p. 12 of ML? (This was probably just a short visit, don't you think?) KH refers to Amritsar in some places as if it were his home, in others as a place he occasionally visits. References to the Punjab abound in the early MLs, but later the focus is entirely on Tibet. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:30:54 -0400 From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: UFO Connections/Time Travel Thank you Jerry S. fo pointing out that we already move quite satisfactorially through space- time and it really gets fun if you cross the international date line. :-) I guess I picked up that jargon from too many B science fiction films. "Get ready! We are going at warp speed through the time barrier! WHHHOOOOSSSHHHH! EEEEKKKKK! " etc. But it also points that we are doing a lot of things without being conscious of them, reflecting on them and realizing we are doing them when we are doing them. I am thinking about Lucid Dreaming! It is my favorite topic and I wish I could do it everynight., but it is kind of a gift, like grace or something. It happens to me usually when I am deprived of sleep. I have had some pretty intense experiences that were psychologically powerful (sometimes it is very pleasing, more pleasing than most waking experiences, or it can be very frightening if you get into a Lucid Nightmare, these are less discussed.) But lucid dreams have given me the insight that the mind can and does travel through many states of consciousness everyday and night. But how far can we take these to mean travel to other dimensions or to the past or the future? Are the beings in them "real" or coherent in the same way we are? Crick who helped map DNA believes that life was spored from another place in the galaxy. That the age of the earth and the complexity of life are not compatible with evolution as it is currently taught (without involution). So would we need physical DNA (with organic molecules) to carry life or could it be reduced to some binary code and transmitted over light waves or something? Are God, the archetypes, and their communications encoded implicated or encoded in the DNA and decoded or explicated through the collective unconscious the way language is? Are our dreams a way or at least a reminder of how we are really not limited beings but part of something that is going on in parrallel universes not so much as a past or future but a potential past or future? Thus meeting are talking to aliens, Masters, elementals, devas, angels, archetypes is not that rare, but we just aren't able to do it consciously when we want to all the time. It seems like systems of Enochian Magic and the Kabala are attempts to control this intercourse. A spiritual or psychic experience can be life changing. Channeling, prayer, meditation, dreams, are all attempts to communicate with beings ae parts of ourself that are on higher or at least on alternate levels of existense. But the only way to communicate this is not with evidence, but with words ( which are sorely lacking in duplicating the experince). I think, as I have said before, that many people use art to trascend and transform from ordinary consciousness to an expanded one. Today's highly produced music and special effects films attempt to provide these experiences to the general public. I have heard it said that THE SECRET DOCTRINE is less an archeological or historical document than an attempt to induce a meditation or open the intuitive eye of the reader so as to gaze into new areas of thought and experience. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:20:58 -0400 From: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Subject: Re: Fundamentalism & Planets in Signs. > > Your question is similar to one I have been pondering. What are the reasons and implications of the rise in fundamentalism around the world? I would be interested in others comments. > This question has arisen on alt.astrology in relation to the entry of Uranus into Aquarius and Pluto into Sagittarius. Also, the movement of Pluto (the planet of transformation) through Scorpio (the sign of war) these last decades has caused quite a polarization of "sides" -- the phrase "You are either for or against me" applies under these influences. Pluto's forcing energy in Scorpio brings everything into the light of day, so to speak, or makes everyone want to have clarity as if they see the truth in such clear light. So whatever truth they identify with becomes, to them, clear and right with no middle ground for compromise. Uranus in Aquarius could bring to the public the discovery of (electric) levitation (sic. magic in the air and over water). Just a hopeful thought. Peace, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:45:16 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re:THE MASTERS REVEALED Dear Brenda-- In keeping with majority opinion that historical discussion belongs on theos-roots, let's move any further q & a on the book there. But I'll reply to these two here: > "My Masters and the Masters are Yogis and Munis de facto, not de jure; in their life not in appearance. They are members of an occult brotherhood, not of any particular school in India. One of their highest Mahachohans lived in Egypt and went to Tibet only a year before we did (in 1878) and he is neither a Tibetan nor a Hindu....its origin is of untold antiquity, and is as much Masonic as present Masonry is little Masonic." > You feel that when she says "we" she is referring to herself and Olcott. This struck me as an odd interpretation and so I did a little research in regards to their whereabouts in 1879. I found a quote I think you might be interested in, but I also wish to point out that she and Olcott are not subjects of this quote a single time. She does separate in a strange way her Masters from The Masters, so "we" could easily be used to refer to "our side." Her Masters are "we" as they are responsible for The Theosophical Society in its early inception. She also uses the term "its" to refer to "the Brotherhood" and I think this is a little confusing as she could easily be speaking of the Mahachohan. Your reading of "we" is not out of the question, and it would be helpful to see more of the letter, but I still think HPB and Olcott are the intended "we." Just one example of how confusing this material can be. BTW, Hilarion is alleged to have gone to Tibet, and definitely knew HPB in Egypt. But there's no way to reconcile the phrase "one of the highest Mahachohans" with her portrayal of Hilarion as "no Mahatma" but a lowly adept. > Of course your main point is to compare HPB's whereabouts with Afghani's whereabouts and to prove that they were always winding up in the same place at the same time. Places being India, Tbilisi and area, Cairo, Paris, and India again. Is there any reason why India isn't pinpointed to a city and its area as the others are? Afghani settled in Hyderabad and I find no record of his travels within India, although he later referred his friend Wilfrid Scawen Blunt to people in several parts of the country. > I was wondering if you had any information regarding this person or had included him in your search. To be honest, this is the first time that I heard of this Master in over 20 years of membership in the T.S. The only other likely reference to him is Olcott's description of meeting an adept in Pondicherry, whom I think he describes as a South Indian. This is one of many cases where I think if I'd been let in the Adyar archives I might have found something. > Couldn't H.P.B. be referring to this exodus from India when speaking of an 1879 departure to Tibet? Were you aware of this? I doubt it; the allege exodus occurred over a long period, and the "we" going to Tibet was given a particular year. But this is one of the murkiest of all passages about the Masters, so it's all guesswork. Cheers From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:51:42 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: UFO Connections/Time Travel Kieth - have you seen Don DeGracia's book on OBE'S and lucid dreaming ? peace - john mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 22:05:39 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Keith > > Keith: I am thinking about Lucid Dreaming! It is my favorite topic and I wish I could do it everynight., but it is kind of a gift, like grace or something. It happens to me usually when I am deprived of sleep. > Kieth - have you seen Don DeGracia's book on OBE'S and lucid dreaming ? > peace - > john mead Lucid dreaming is a gift if you come by it naturally, but it can be learned like anything else. It took me many years to learn it. I agree with John, you should take a look at Don's lucid dreaming material (it is excellent). BTW, Don was the first I heard to use the term hypnogogic, but I recently came across the term in several books. The idea is to stay in the semi-sleep state as long as you can. I have found that I do this naturally now, more than I want to. I often feel like I am not sleeping and can't get to sleep, but later my wife will tell me that I was sleeping away like a baby. Physically you sleep (your body rests) but mentally you are semi-awake and know that you are lying in your bed and so on. It allows you to consciously direct your dreams rather like a movie director. Because of this, you can easily stop nightmares before they start. You mention "lucid nightmare" but as faar as I can see, you would have to want to have the nightmare in order to have one - I used to have terrible ones years ago, but thanks to lucid dreaming I have eliminated them altogether. Whenever one starts, I just say NO, and then change the direction of the dream content to one that I would prefer. This has worked well for years. Keith: < But how far can we take these to mean travel to other dimensions or to the past or the future? Are the beings in them "real" or coherent in the same way we are?> Good question. Remember HPB's warning about the astral world being mayavic. I am not at all sure that the future and past are "places" to visit anyway. I think that both only exist in a kind of quantum probabilistic sense and that only the present is real. To visit _the_ future is really to visit _a_ possible future, one of many possible futures, and yes, we can do this. To visit _the_ past is also really to visit _a_ past. Your question about the reality of the people that we encounter is the same as the one I get asked about with Enochian Magic: Are the gods and angels real? I believe that I have already answered this one several times. The beings we meet in dreams are as real as those we meet with in rituals and in meditations. Keith: First of all, scientists are only guessing at the age of the Earth, and their guessing changes all the time. Also, modern chaos theory has addressed evolution and given it some new and interesting views such as how complex systems self-organize, and that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Also, a new view of evolution is growing in scientific circles that rejects Darwin's survival of the fittest and instead looks at symbiosis or mutual cooperation as the key ingredient for how living beings evolve (the key scientific players here are women, BTW). Keith: I am reading a fascinating new book by Klaus Mainzer called THINKING IN COMPLEXITY (Springer-Verlag, 1994). Mainzer describes a chaos model approach to the human brain and consciousness. He also points out that DNA cannot possibly carry all of the instructions needed to form a working brain nor could nature have had time to single out the complex choices that are being made given the awesome number of possibilities that exist ("The DNA molecule that comprises the total genome of a single bacterial cell represents one or a few choices out of more than 10 to one millionth power alternative sequences. Obviously, only a minute fraction of all such alternatives could have been tested by nature." p. 86). One of his conclusions is that "emergent effects of the whole system are system effects which cannot be reduced to the single elements" and then he goes on to criticize both bottom up (DNA, neuroscience, biochemistry, etc) and top down (cognitive systems) methods as doomed to failure. In short, the scientific community studying the human brain and consciousness have not yet reached any degree of success. To answer your question, No, DNA is not necessary, and No, I don't think that life can be transmitted over light waves. Keith: I agree with your assessment here and would answer yes to all of the above. Keith: IMHO, it is historical and archeological, as well as meditational. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 22:08:35 -0400 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: American Theosophist It seems to me that the American Theosophist is getting better and better, especially since John Alegeo has taken over. The latest Summer issue has to rank with the very best that I have seen. Thanks to Eldon, who contributed an excellent article. I also liked the history lesson given by Dora Kunz, and the KEY article on reincarnation has to be one of the best I have read on the subject. My congratulations to Wheaton. Jerry S.