From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 01 Apr 95 10:31:51 EST From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Judgement Day K. Paul Johnson writes: > Yet, even though we know how limited our perceptions >are, when we get into high gear with our thinking >and feeling, we forget. . . . And when the data are missing, >we just start making up facts that fit with our judgments. In today's Chicago Sun-Times, an article entitled "Cults Trying to Hasten Doomsday" was found in the Religion column. Prompted by the recent nerve gas deaths in Japan, Andrew Herrmann, writes, "Some experts are predicting that we'll see a rash of such incidents as we approach the turn of the century - attacks committed by millennial cults. Interpreting numbers in the Bible, they believe that the second coming of Christ is near- and that it can be hurried by vast killing." (These cults) claim that they speak for God. Virtually all of (them) say if a follower happens to die in the commission of these acts he will immediately ascend into glorious heaven. All of these groups have a profound sense of alienation and have deliberately withdrawn from society." I think the above excerpt not only addresses K. Paul's statement on judgement, but also some recent posts about the Apocalypse movement. The last sentence of the quote is a good example of the dire consequences of separateness. After the year 1000 A.D., churches went up throughout Europe, especially in France and Germany, to express thanks at the postponement of Judgment Day. Wonder what humanity will build in thanks for making it past the year 2000? p.s. Have truly enjoyed the posts of judgement. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:53:25 -0800 From: ae677@lafn.org (Nancy Coker) Subject: So long but not good bye I am heartened by the posted remarks commenting on the process as well as the content of our cyber-dialogues. For Theosophy to survive (and not become totally irrelevant in a world full of psychological and metaphysical ramblings) our ability develop spiritually, to think for ourselves, and disagree cleanly with each other -- without destroying fellow feeling-- could help us stand tall. OR we may end up being like the eagle in the tale told by Aeschylus: In the Libyan fables, once an eagle, stricken with a dart, said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, With our own feathers, not by others' hands, are we now smitten. I am vacationing for a few weeks and temporarily unsubscribing, Hugs. Nancy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 00:35:28 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: ML citation blunder Liesel: Oh No! I have *only* the same edition as yourself - no flyer. So I have only the _one_ numbering system! Can you not cite both? p l e a s e ? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 00:41:50 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re to Alan on Aura Yours was a long reply, so I am not requoting it, but in general, yes, it all seems quite a reasonable way of looking at it to me, and fits the evidence of my own experience to date in a broad sense. Re your other post, John said that Jesus said "God is love." This is hearsay, and notwithstanding former ordination and consecration in the independent catholic traditions, I still see Jesus as a Galilean Israelite rabbi of his time, not as any kind of "Master" - so his opinion is as valid as any other [modern] rabbi. Jesus' own scriptures seem to secribe God as Being per se. I'll have to run a bible progrma check on that one though. If there really is no such thing as time, maybe he will pop up one day to tell us he is not the reincarnation of Krishnamurti :-). Peace and quiet, Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 22:21:55 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Kabbalah Study > How is it going? > > Is it going? > > What's new? > > Regards, > > Alan > -- > Please send E-mail to: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk > - All views expressed are humble opinions - I could understand parts 1 and 2 of your Keys, but got a bit bogged down in part 3. I don't really understand all those circles and things, and how they relate to architecture. I thought I should probably keep reading and see if light dawned. Also, the cleaner comes and piles all my books and papers up on a tiny table, trying to get them all out of the way. But it makes it impossible to find (or remember) things. Your Keys was one of the things lodged in the pile. Also, have been side-tracked on to some books I got recently: including "The Pythagorean Triangle" by Rev. George Oliver, and a biography and exposition (apology?) on Paracelsus by Franz Hartman. (I first learnt about him reading some rather obscure texts in Adyar.) I somehow feel an affinity with Paracelsus, although I know very little about him, as yet. We visited his grave in Salzburg, here in Austria. Such a nice atmosphere around it. Also they have a big herb garden dedicated to him - bliss to walk in! Hartman says he was instructed by the same school of adepts which instructed HPB, which could account for... Anyway, must plough on with Part 3. The opportunity to visit Luxor may present itself towards the end of the month, and I would like to bear your ideas in mind when in the Temple. Cheers ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 22:31:11 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Laws of nature > justify having one. "Do what thou wilt" a la Crowley or anyone > else sounds fine but says little, as it does not take into > account any consequences. I guess you can do what the hell you > like as long as you are preapred to pay the price - another way > of defining karma perhaps, or as I quoted in a previous posting, > "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Who was it that said "Love God, and do as you will"? It wasn't St. Augustine again, or perhaps St. Paul? Any way, it kind of appealled to me, because if you act with love of Law and of the Divine in others, at least the motive will be right. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 22:36:58 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re to Arthur > This universal law, which Crowley adopted and many good > folks have thus ignored, seems a bit selfish or harsh on > the surface. In fact, modern wiccans have changed it to > "an' in harm none, do what thou wilt" so folks won't get the > wrong idea. Actually, the "an' it harm none" is implied in > the law itself once you understand exactly what the "thou" > is - it is not the personality or ego. The "thou" refers to My only comment to all this, is why can't they write properly " _and_ it harm none"? Signin' off for now, ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 22:34:48 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Various Comments > Dogma: Consciousness is a state of being. > Awareness is a funtion of consciousness. > > [Channeled teaching!] > > Alan. Now, if we start writing channelled teachings, where will it end? ;-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 22:16:46 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Judgement Day > Ann writes: > After the year 1000 A.D., churches went up throughout Europe, > especially in France and Germany, to express thanks at the > postponement of Judgment Day. Wonder what humanity will build in > thanks for making it past the year 2000? Do you have sources and/or citations i can refer to re this particular building program? It has particular and direct relevance to another project of mine. TIA [I hope]. There are quite a few in Britain from this period on, as well. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 22:21:45 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Laws of nature > Hello Alan and the others. > > On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> Is the inner universe any less _maya_ than the outer? Is there >> an "objective" universe? > This woke me up. I think that it depends of viewpoint. From my viewpoint there are: 1) physical universe, which is relatively objective, maya 2) subjective universe which is my mind's contents, and 3) objective immaterial universe, free of time and space, Plato's world of ideas, like e.g. mathemathics is objective but immaterial. I can go along with this view, although Kabalist teaching posits a fourth "spritual" non-objective immaterial universe,etc. > In this "subjective"-worldview the level 2 is most important, > since I feel my personality existing there (usually). From my > consciousness there are sensens to all these domains; physical > senses to world 1, self-observation of my mind's contents to > world 2 (feelings, thoughts, recollections, etc.) and to > objective realm there is intuition. Thinking compared to the > ideas of the objective world is analogical to the retinas of the > eyes to the objects they reflect. Being only a stating, > mirroring factor to intuition. > > peace. aki. This fits the facts as I see them, and as they seem to apply to most people. We rarely see 1) or 3) without engaging in special practices (eg., meditation, contemplation). Peace to you also. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 22:49:28 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Various Comments > guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: >> >> Dogma: Consciousness is a state of being. >> Awareness is a funtion of consciousness. >> >> [Channeled teaching!] >> >> Alan. > > Now, if we start writing channelled teachings, where will it > end? ;-) > > ASTREA Enlightenment? I doubt it! Just my 2 [local currency] worth. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 22:52:06 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Kabbalah Study To Astrea: Part Three is not too easy to follow from scratch, I must agree. I have recently (Nov. last) produced a work showing how it is derived from _standard_ Kabbalist texts, and thus not an invention of my own. However, if you have not already read, and perhaps used the texts of Sepher Yetzirah and the 32 Paths of Wisdom it would not perhaps be of much immediate value, though the diagram of Luxor is repeated! along with a number of Bristish cathedral and abbey churches dating from the eleventh century onwards (the project mentioned in another posting of mine). It cannot be uploaded for complicated reasons, the number of diagrams being one, and the inclusion of text in Hebrew another. (The last sentence of mine _nearly_ read, "I cannot be uploaded" - some achievement! How many others, like myself, are acutely embarrassed when their typos come back with the rest of the theos mail, I wonder). Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 23:44:16 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kabalah Part 2a THE KEYS TO KABBALAH (c) 1994 by A.M.Bain 14 Tyndall's Park Road, Clifton, Bristol BS8 1PY, England.p PART TWO THE 21 STAGES In Part One we described briefly the development of the Tree of Life from Kether (1) to Malkuth (10). With these basic principles to guide us, we can attempt to describe a journey in awareness portrayed as a return path from Malkuth to Kether. This begins in Malkuth and follows through 22 stages. As one is a stage of preparation, we speak in practice of 21. These may be grouped as seven steps of three or four stages each. Here we describe the return journey as far as is practical for us, which is as far as the place of Daath. On the scale of the Ladder we shall see that as we reach a stage of genuine knowledge - as distinct from theory - each Daath or Knowledge stage is transformed into a Yesod or Foundation stage for the next level or world above. In the 21 Stages, we can see from the diagram that before we move on from each stage to the next, we first look back and consoli- date the work that we have done so far, completing the various triangles which connect the Sephiroth. Broadly speaking, stages which fall directly on particular Sephiroth represent definite levels of awareness, in the same way that the Sephiroth represent definite principles. The paths which connect them represent the activity of that awareness in its development. The whole arrangement of the 21 stages properly belongs in the world of Yetzirah on the scale of the Ladder as delineated in Part Three. The significance of this cannot be over-emphasised. To reiterate what has been said elsewhere, the four worlds have a direct correspondence in the Christian tradition, which may be expressed thus: Heaven (Atziluth); Paradise (Briah); Purgatory (Yetzirah); and Hades (Assiah). If we choose to equate Hades with Hell, as is sometimes done, then is this not an accurate description of the world in which we find ourselves? The classic descriptions of "Hell" leap out at us every day from our newspapers and television screens. We call it "The News." Who is to blame for the evil conditions and events which continu- ally take place? The atrocities and horrors of this or that war in this or that part of the world? The rape and torture of women and children? The ever-increasing ability of human beings to devise "better" ways and means of inflicting the greatest possible agony upon each other? What kind of God, many people ask, created such a world for us to inhabit? The answer is, or course, that no kind of God did any such thing. We have created these conditions ourselves, and it is our responsibility, not God's, to change them. For each one of us, the only change we can make practically is a change within ourselves. It is easy to see that this or that world leader, dictator, politician, political movement, etc., is to blame for this or that condition or sequence of events. It may be that the blame we so readily apportion truly belongs where we allocate it, but allocating blame does not change things. As long as there are human beings ready to perpetuate such evil, and other human beings who are willing to allow it to take place then it will continue as it has done for centuries. If we are honest with ourselves as individuals, we will acknowl- edge and recognise that we all, each one of us - and especially ME - have the capacity for evil, possibly as great as the most evil person in history. If we have any hope at all of changing the world order, then the first and most practical place to begin is on our own doorstep, that is with ourselves. This, according to the Teaching, is the work which we each undertake in the world of Yetzirah, of Purgatory, of Purifica- tion. This work can shown by the Teaching by means of the 21 stages. The arrangement outlined here differs from previously published works based on the teachings of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and its derivatives. Any method, however, that is based on the Tree of Life will show a progression in reverse order of the "lightning flash," as the present arrangement does with the Fool of the Tarot. The 21 stages do not attempt to show a progression into the highest spiritual levels. This is due to the relative position of the 21 stages on the larger scale of the Ladder, to be delineated in Part Three. They go, in fact, as far as the "Daath" of Yetzirah, which then becomes the "Yesod" or Foundation of the world of Briah, Creation, or Paradise. The value of this is that it provides a practical guide to those who wish to chart their own progress without the necessity of consulting self-styled Masters or Adepts. Another advantage is that it is most practical to begin with an arrangement of what is available to us, namely, the Sephiroth of Yetzirah. What immediately follows is, therefore, a partial system of the greater teaching of the Ladder, though it can be used indepen- dently. (While it is not vital to an understanding of this arrangement, it is of interest to consider the following remarks of Dion Fortune in her book The Mystical Qabalah, (4:12): "Concerning the Tarot cards, there are three modern authorities of note. . . . All three are different. Concerning the system Mr. Waite gives, he himself says `There is another system known to initiates.' There is reason to suppose that this is the method used by Mathers." It is this method that Dion Fortune adopted and published in her book. There is, however, even better reason to suppose that attributions, as published, are not that of the `other' system, referred to by Mr. Waite. One of the most widely used Tarot packs in modern use, and which is recommended to all students, is that designed by Waite himself, and faithfully portrayed by Pamela Coleman Smith. We may reasonably suppose from what he says that he was aware of this `other' method, and that being so, he would be likely to incorporate it into his own pack. Without speculating further, it is interesting to observe that the internal evidence of Waite's designs, i.e., the pictures actually on the cards, are more in accord with the arrangement of the 21 stages than with any other published system. For example, cards 2, 5 and 8 (when the original numbering is restored) all show figures seated between the Pillars of the Temple. No other cards show such symbolism so clearly, and all three cards connect with Malkuth at the bottom of the Tree. Cards 1, 10 and 21 all contain fourfold symbolism of a more specific nature. In card 1, the Magician stands in front of the symbols of the four Tarot suits on the table. In card 10 the four Holy Animals appear in the four corners of the card. This is repeated in card 21. These three cards all appear on the Middle Pillar of the Tree in ascending order (See "The Middle Pillar" below). Card 6 joins Hod and Netzach, and shows the Sun of Tiphareth shining behind the angel who veils it, while card 17 similarly joins 'Hesed and Geburah, and shows the star of Kether shining through a veil of seven lesser stars). THE MIDDLE PILLAR In this arrangement, the Middle Pillar reaches only as far as Daath, Knowledge, representative of the supernal Triangle at the human, subjective level of awareness.* Let it be said here that all human awareness is ordinarily subjective, being even at its highest subject to infinitely more powerful laws of being shown "as in a mirror darkly." *(We shall see in Part Three that whenever a "Daath" position is reached, it becomes, to developing awareness, the "Yesod" or Foundation of the level above, and there is another Tree to climb!) With this in mind, we may nevertheless consider the relative significance of the development of awareness as portrayed by the 21 stages, and in particular the symbolism of the Middle Pillar upon which three major changes in awareness can occur. The stages concerned with this process are Stage 1, lifting awareness from sleep in Malkuth towards Yesod, shown by the Magician; Stage 10, raising Personality awareness in Yesod to Self awareness in Tiphareth, symbolised by the Wheel, and Stage 21, elevating Self awareness to its maximum development towards Daath, Self Knowledge, or Spiritual Awareness, symbolised by the card "The World." These three cards are the only ones (in the Waite pack) which clearly show the symbolism of the four worlds. As we proceed, the relevant equivalent location of the important stages as described on the greater scale of the Ladder in Part Three of this work will be given, and in some measure connected to their relation to the 21 stages. In Stage 1 the Magician has available the four symbols of the Tarot suits, representing Fire, Water, Air and Earth. These may be taken to represent the tools we learn to use on our journey. In stage 10, the Tarot card The Wheel shows the four Holy Animals in the corners of the card, each with an opened book. This symbolises the work we have to do in order to apply our learning and further our progress. In stage 21, the same Holy Animals again occupy the four corners of the card, but this time as simple representations without wings, books or other attributes, symbolising the simplicity of true knowledge. The symbolism of these three cards, together with card 6, The Lovers; card 17, The Star; card 2, The High Priestess; card 5, The Hierophant, and card 8, Justice, suggests that A. E. Waite may have had a very similar arrangement to that which is used here before him when be designed his own cards. THE TAROT ATTRIBUTIONS A few words are necessary here, for we are dealing with an aspect of the teaching on a different scale from that of the 32 Paths to be outlined in Part Three. The main point in need of emphasis is that while that which is above is like that which is below, it is by no means the same thing, and that which adequately illustrates one level cannot necessarily be easily or directly transferred to another. The view from the upper deck of the bus is not the same as that from the lower, even though both share the basic principles of bus arrangement. Accordingly, the attributions of the Tarot trumps to the 21 Stages of the Way are different from those of the downward flow of the 32 Paths. There is no contradiction in this; the same tools are being used in a different manner, that is all. For example, we may use a spoon for stirring, for measuring, or for cracking the top of a boiled egg. When, in due time, we have used the tools and completed the building of the "Temple not made with hands," we put the tools aside. This work is not a game to be played, and although "magical" symbolism is employed by the Tarot, any ideas we might get that we are in any way some sort of "magicians" with "special powers" belong to the comic books and science fiction or fantasy movies, not real life. Real life is much more clever than that, as we shall discover with some trepidation if we take our work seriously. The foundation of the Tree of Life is the Sephira Yesod. It is represented in the 21 Stages by The High Priestess, card 2. Below her are two figures; the Fool and The Magician. The Fool, in Malkuth, has yet to awaken and knock at the gate. "The Gate" is one of the titles of Malkuth. When we awaken, due to events and circumstances outside of ourselves, we come under the influence and operation of Step 1, called elsewhere "right impulse" or "good impulse" and develop a desire to seek Knowledge. In doing so, we become the "Magician," armed with the tools symbolised by the objects on the table before us. The process of awakening has begun, and can continue until we become Self-aware in Step 4. We begin to apply the virtue of Malkuth, discrimination. Here we stand at the entrance of the outer court of the Temple, as prepared as it is possible to be, seeking admission. Before us are three figures, all representatives of the Temple, only one of whom can grant admission. On one side is the figure of the Hierophant, seated between the Pillars of the Temple. A priest, however, cannot grant admission, for this work is to expound the teaching in a manner acceptable and intelligible to those outside the Temple gate, whether they seek admission or not. On the other side is the figure of Justice, who also cannot grant admission, for this work is to bring the unseen influences of the teaching to those outside, and to assess the worthiness of applicants for entry. By these two, after a manner, the candidate has already been prepared, and stands at the gate of Cancer, the fourth sign of the zodiac, ruled by the Moon at the feet of the High Priestess in Yesod, who holds the scroll of the Law, and who alone can grant admission to the outer court of the Holy places. The gate of Cancer is also called such in esoteric astrology. It is the gate of birth into the world, and it is through this gate that every one of us begins the preparation of entering into life; bodily life, psychological life, and spiritual life, all of which we are concerned with here. In the next section, we shall consider each of the 22 cards separately. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 23:45:06 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kabalah Part 2a Part 2a of my ~Keys to Kabbalah~ uploaded to theos-buds. Part two deals mostly with the Tarot. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 01:45:56 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kabalah re-post THE KEYS TO KABBALAH (c) 1994 by A.M.Bain 14 Tyndall's Park Road, Clifton, Bristol BS8 1PY, England.p PART TWO THE 21 STAGES In Part One we described briefly the development of the Tree of Life from Kether (1) to Malkuth (10). With these basic principles to guide us, we can attempt to describe a journey in awareness portrayed as a return path from Malkuth to Kether. This begins in Malkuth and follows through 22 stages. As one is a stage of preparation, we speak in practice of 21. These may be grouped as seven steps of three or four stages each. Here we describe the return journey as far as is practical for us, which is as far as the place of Daath. On the scale of the Ladder we shall see that as we reach a stage of genuine knowledge - as distinct from theory - each Daath or Knowledge stage is transformed into a Yesod or Foundation stage for the next level or world above. In the 21 Stages, we can see from the diagram that before we move on from each stage to the next, we first look back and consoli- date the work that we have done so far, completing the various triangles which connect the Sephiroth. Broadly speaking, stages which fall directly on particular Sephiroth represent definite levels of awareness, in the same way that the Sephiroth represent definite principles. The paths which connect them represent the activity of that awareness in its development. The whole arrangement of the 21 stages properly belongs in the world of Yetzirah on the scale of the Ladder as delineated in Part Three. The significance of this cannot be over-emphasised. To reiterate what has been said elsewhere, the four worlds have a direct correspondence in the Christian tradition, which may be expressed thus: Heaven (Atziluth); Paradise (Briah); Purgatory (Yetzirah); and Hades (Assiah). If we choose to equate Hades with Hell, as is sometimes done, then is this not an accurate description of the world in which we find ourselves? The classic descriptions of "Hell" leap out at us every day from our newspapers and television screens. We call it "The News." Who is to blame for the evil conditions and events which continu- ally take place? The atrocities and horrors of this or that war in this or that part of the world? The rape and torture of women and children? The ever-increasing ability of human beings to devise "better" ways and means of inflicting the greatest possible agony upon each other? What kind of God, many people ask, created such a world for us to inhabit? The answer is, or course, that no kind of God did any such thing. We have created these conditions ourselves, and it is our responsibility, not God's, to change them. For each one of us, the only change we can make practically is a change within ourselves. It is easy to see that this or that world leader, dictator, politician, political movement, etc., is to blame for this or that condition or sequence of events. It may be that the blame we so readily apportion truly belongs where we allocate it, but allocating blame does not change things. As long as there are human beings ready to perpetuate such evil, and other human beings who are willing to allow it to take place then it will continue as it has done for centuries. If we are honest with ourselves as individuals, we will acknowl- edge and recognise that we all, each one of us - and especially ME - have the capacity for evil, possibly as great as the most evil person in history. If we have any hope at all of changing the world order, then the first and most practical place to begin is on our own doorstep, that is with ourselves. This, according to the Teaching, is the work which we each undertake in the world of Yetzirah, of Purgatory, of Purifica- tion. This work can shown by the Teaching by means of the 21 stages. The arrangement outlined here differs from previously published works based on the teachings of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and its derivatives. Any method, however, that is based on the Tree of Life will show a progression in reverse order of the "lightning flash," as the present arrangement does with the Fool of the Tarot. The 21 stages do not attempt to show a progression into the highest spiritual levels. This is due to the relative position of the 21 stages on the larger scale of the Ladder, to be delineated in Part Three. They go, in fact, as far as the "Daath" of Yetzirah, which then becomes the "Yesod" or Foundation of the world of Briah, Creation, or Paradise. The value of this is that it provides a practical guide to those who wish to chart their own progress without the necessity of consulting self-styled Masters or Adepts. Another advantage is that it is most practical to begin with an arrangement of what is available to us, namely, the Sephiroth of Yetzirah. What immediately follows is, therefore, a partial system of the greater teaching of the Ladder, though it can be used indepen- dently. (While it is not vital to an understanding of this arrangement, it is of interest to consider the following remarks of Dion Fortune in her book The Mystical Qabalah, (4:12): "Concerning the Tarot cards, there are three modern authorities of note. . . . All three are different. Concerning the system Mr. Waite gives, he himself says `There is another system known to initiates.' There is reason to suppose that this is the method used by Mathers." It is this method that Dion Fortune adopted and published in her book. There is, however, even better reason to suppose that attributions, as published, are not that of the `other' system, referred to by Mr. Waite. One of the most widely used Tarot packs in modern use, and which is recommended to all students, is that designed by Waite himself, and faithfully portrayed by Pamela Coleman Smith. We may reasonably suppose from what he says that he was aware of this `other' method, and that being so, he would be likely to incorporate it into his own pack. Without speculating further, it is interesting to observe that the internal evidence of Waite's designs, i.e., the pictures actually on the cards, are more in accord with the arrangement of the 21 stages than with any other published system. For example, cards 2, 5 and 8 (when the original numbering is restored) all show figures seated between the Pillars of the Temple. No other cards show such symbolism so clearly, and all three cards connect with Malkuth at the bottom of the Tree. Cards 1, 10 and 21 all contain fourfold symbolism of a more specific nature. In card 1, the Magician stands in front of the symbols of the four Tarot suits on the table. In card 10 the four Holy Animals appear in the four corners of the card. This is repeated in card 21. These three cards all appear on the Middle Pillar of the Tree in ascending order (See "The Middle Pillar" below). Card 6 joins Hod and Netzach, and shows the Sun of Tiphareth shining behind the angel who veils it, while card 17 similarly joins 'Hesed and Geburah, and shows the star of Kether shining through a veil of seven lesser stars). THE MIDDLE PILLAR In this arrangement, the Middle Pillar reaches only as far as Daath, Knowledge, representative of the supernal Triangle at the human, subjective level of awareness.* Let it be said here that all human awareness is ordinarily subjective, being even at its highest subject to infinitely more powerful laws of being shown "as in a mirror darkly." *(We shall see in Part Three that whenever a "Daath" position is reached, it becomes, to developing awareness, the "Yesod" or Foundation of the level above, and there is another Tree to climb!) With this in mind, we may nevertheless consider the relative significance of the development of awareness as portrayed by the 21 stages, and in particular the symbolism of the Middle Pillar upon which three major changes in awareness can occur. The stages concerned with this process are Stage 1, lifting awareness from sleep in Malkuth towards Yesod, shown by the Magician; Stage 10, raising Personality awareness in Yesod to Self awareness in Tiphareth, symbolised by the Wheel, and Stage 21, elevating Self awareness to its maximum development towards Daath, Self Knowledge, or Spiritual Awareness, symbolised by the card "The World." These three cards are the only ones (in the Waite pack) which clearly show the symbolism of the four worlds. As we proceed, the relevant equivalent location of the important stages as described on the greater scale of the Ladder in Part Three of this work will be given, and in some measure connected to their relation to the 21 stages. In Stage 1 the Magician has available the four symbols of the Tarot suits, representing Fire, Water, Air and Earth. These may be taken to represent the tools we learn to use on our journey. In stage 10, the Tarot card The Wheel shows the four Holy Animals in the corners of the card, each with an opened book. This symbolises the work we have to do in order to apply our learning and further our progress. In stage 21, the same Holy Animals again occupy the four corners of the card, but this time as simple representations without wings, books or other attributes, symbolising the simplicity of true knowledge. The symbolism of these three cards, together with card 6, The Lovers; card 17, The Star; card 2, The High Priestess; card 5, The Hierophant, and card 8, Justice, suggests that A. E. Waite may have had a very similar arrangement to that which is used here before him when be designed his own cards. THE TAROT ATTRIBUTIONS A few words are necessary here, for we are dealing with an aspect of the teaching on a different scale from that of the 32 Paths to be outlined in Part Three. The main point in need of emphasis is that while that which is above is like that which is below, it is by no means the same thing, and that which adequately illustrates one level cannot necessarily be easily or directly transferred to another. The view from the upper deck of the bus is not the same as that from the lower, even though both share the basic principles of bus arrangement. Accordingly, the attributions of the Tarot trumps to the 21 Stages of the Way are different from those of the downward flow of the 32 Paths. There is no contradiction in this; the same tools are being used in a different manner, that is all. For example, we may use a spoon for stirring, for measuring, or for cracking the top of a boiled egg. When, in due time, we have used the tools and completed the building of the "Temple not made with hands," we put the tools aside. This work is not a game to be played, and although "magical" symbolism is employed by the Tarot, any ideas we might get that we are in any way some sort of "magicians" with "special powers" belong to the comic books and science fiction or fantasy movies, not real life. Real life is much more clever than that, as we shall discover with some trepidation if we take our work seriously. The foundation of the Tree of Life is the Sephira Yesod. It is represented in the 21 Stages by The High Priestess, card 2. Below her are two figures; the Fool and The Magician. The Fool, in Malkuth, has yet to awaken and knock at the gate. "The Gate" is one of the titles of Malkuth. When we awaken, due to events and circumstances outside of ourselves, we come under the influence and operation of Step 1, called elsewhere "right impulse" or "good impulse" and develop a desire to seek Knowledge. In doing so, we become the "Magician," armed with the tools symbolised by the objects on the table before us. The process of awakening has begun, and can continue until we become Self-aware in Step 4. We begin to apply the virtue of Malkuth, discrimination. Here we stand at the entrance of the outer court of the Temple, as prepared as it is possible to be, seeking admission. Before us are three figures, all representatives of the Temple, only one of whom can grant admission. On one side is the figure of the Hierophant, seated between the Pillars of the Temple. A priest, however, cannot grant admission, for this work is to expound the teaching in a manner acceptable and intelligible to those outside the Temple gate, whether they seek admission or not. On the other side is the figure of Justice, who also cannot grant admission, for this work is to bring the unseen influences of the teaching to those outside, and to assess the worthiness of applicants for entry. By these two, after a manner, the candidate has already been prepared, and stands at the gate of Cancer, the fourth sign of the zodiac, ruled by the Moon at the feet of the High Priestess in Yesod, who holds the scroll of the Law, and who alone can grant admission to the outer court of the Holy places. The gate of Cancer is also called such in esoteric astrology. It is the gate of birth into the world, and it is through this gate that every one of us begins the preparation of entering into life; bodily life, psychological life, and spiritual life, all of which we are concerned with here. In the next section, we shall consider each of the 22 cards separately. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 01:46:33 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kabalah re-post Part 2a of my Kabbalah file posted to theos-buds came back to me incomplete, with a msg saying the latter part was uuencoded. Decoding it produced garbage my end, so I have re-posted the file to theos-buds a second time, hoping it will arrive properly - it is only abot 13K so it should not meet any 64K mail blocks en route. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 20:05:46 -0500 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: ML Chronol. # 5, part 2 of 2 "Colonel Olcott is doubtless 'out of time with the feelings of English people' of both classes; but nevertheless more in time with us than either. Him we can trust under all circumstances, and his faithful service is pledged to us come well, come ill. My dear Brother, my voice is the echo of impartial justice. Where can we find an equal devotion? He is one who never questions, but obeys; who may make innumberable mistakes out of excessive zeal but never is unwilling to repair his fault even at the cost of the greatest self-humillation; who esteems the sacrifice of comfort and even life something to be cheerfullly risked whenever necessary; who will eat any food, or even go without; sleep on any bed, work in any place, fraternise with any outcast, endure any privation for the cause .... I admit that his connection with an A.I. Branch would be 'an evil'- hence he will have no more to do with it than he has with the British (London Branch). His connection will be purely nominal, and may be made more so, by framing your Rules more carefully than theirs; and giving your organization such a self-acting system of Goverment as would seldom if ever require any outside interference. But to make an independent A.I.B. with the self-same objects, either in whole or apart, as the Parent Societ and with the same directors behind the scenes woud be not only to deal a mortal blow at the Theos. Soc. but also put upon us a double labour and anxiety without the slightest compensating advantage that any of us can perceive. The Parent S. has never interfered in the slightest degree with the British TS , not indeed with any other Branch, whether religious or philosophical. having formed. or caused to be formed a new branch, the Parent S. charters it (which it cannot now do without our Sanction and signatures), and then usually retires behind the scenes, as you would say. Its further connection with the subject branches is limited to receiving quarterly accounts of their doings` and lists of the new Fellows, ratifying expulsions - only when specially called up as an arbitrator to interefere on account of the Founders' direct connection with us - etc.etc.; it never meddles otherwise in their affairs except when appealed to as a sort of appelate court. And the latter depending on you, what is there to prevent your Society from remaining virtually independent? We are, even more generous than you British are to us. We will not force upon, not even ask you to sanction a Hindu 'Resident' in your Society, to watch the interests of the Parent Paramount Power when we have once declared you independent; but will implicitly trust to your loyalty and word of honor. but if you now so dislike the idead of a purely nominal executive supervision by Col.Olcott- an American of your own race- you would surely rebel against dictation from a Hindu, whose habits and methods are those of his own people, and whose race, despite your natural benevolence, you have not yet learnt even to tolerate, let alone to love & respect. Think well before you ask for our guidance. Our best, most learned, and holiest adepts are of the races of the 'greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs- you know the lion is proverbiallly a dirty and offensive beast, despite his strength and courage. It is certain that your good compatriots would more easilty forgive our Hindu solecisms in manners than those of their own kinsmen of America? If my observations have not misled I should say this was doubtful. National prejudices are apt to leave one's spectacles undimmed. You say 'how glad we should be, if that one (to guide you) were yourself,,' meaning your unworthy correspondent. My good Brother, are you certain, that the pleasant impression you now have from our correspoondence, would not instantly be destroyed upon seeing me? And which of our holy Shaberons has had the benefit of even the little university educat ion and inkling of European manners that has fallen to my share? An instance: I desired Mad. B. to select among the two or three Aryan Punjabees who study Yog Vidya, and our natural mystics, one, whom - without disclosing myself to him too much I coul d designate as an agent between yourself and us, and whom i was anxious to despatch to you, with a letter of introduction, and have him speak to you of Yoga and its practical effects. This young gentelmean who is as pure as purity itself, whose aspirations and thoughts are of the most spiritually ennobling kind, and who merely through self exertion is able to penetrate into the regions of the formless worlds - this young man is not fit for - a drawing rom. Having explained to him that the greatest good might result for his country if he helped you to organize a Branch of English mystics by proving to them pratically to what wonderful results led the study of Yog, Md. B. asked him in guarded and very delicate terms to change his dress and turban before starting for Allahabad- for, though she did not give him this reason, they were very dirty and slovenly. You are to tell Mr. Sinnett- she said- that you bring him a letter from our Brother K., with whom he corresponds. But, if he asks you anything either of him or the other Brothers answer him simply and truthfully that you are not allowed to expatiate upon the subject. Speak of Yog and prove to him what powers you have attained. This young man who had consented wrote later on the following curious letter: 'Madam,'' he said, 'you who preach the highest standards of morality, of truthfulness, etc., you would have me play the part of an impostor. You aks me to change my clothes at the risk of giving a false idea of my personaltiy and mystifying the gentleman you sent me to. And what if he asks me if I personnally know Koot'hoomi, am I to keep silent and allow him to think I do? This would be a tacit falsehood, and guilty of that, I would be thrown back into the awful whirl of transmigration!' Here is an illustration of the difficulties under which we have to labor. Powerless to send you a neophyte before you have pledged yourself to us-- we have to either keep back or despatch to you one who at best would shock if not inspire you at once with disgust! The letter would have been given him by my own hand; he had but to promise to hold his tongue upon matters he knows nothing about and could give but a false idea of, and `to make himself look cleaner. Prejudice and dead letter again. For over a thousand years - says Michelet- the Christian Saints never washed themselves! For how long will our Saints dread to change their clothes for fear of being taken for Marmaliks and the neophytes of rival and cleaner sects!. "But these, our difficulties, ought not to prevent you from beginning your work. Colonel O. and Mad. B. seeming willing to become personally responsible for both yourself and Mr. Hume, if you yourself are ready to answer for the fidelity of any man your party may choose as the leader of the A.I.T.S., we are content that the trial shall be made. The field is yours and no one will be allowed to interfere with you except myself on behalf of our Chiefs when you once do me the honour to prefer me to the others. But before one builds the house he makes the plan. Suppose you draft a memorandum as to the constitution and policy of managements of the A.I. Society you have in mind and submit it for consideration? If our Chiefs agree to it,- and it is not surely they who would show themselves obstructive in the universal onward march, or retard this movement to a higher rgoal- then you will at once be chartered. But they must first see the plan; and I must ask you to remember that the new Society shall not be allowed to disconnect itself with the parent Body, though you are at liberty to manage your affairs in your own way without fearing the slightest interference from its President so long as you do not violate the general Rules. And upon this point I refer you to Rule 9. This is the first practical suggestion coming from a Cis and Trans-Himalayan 'cave dweller' whom you have honoured with your confidence. "And now about yourself personally. Far be it from me to discourage one so wil ling as yourself by setting up impossible barriers to your progress. We never whine over the inevitable but try to make the best of the worst. And though we neither push nor draw into the mysterious domain of occult nature those who are unwilling; never shrink from expressing our opinions freely and fearlessly, yet we are ever as ready to assist those who come to us; even to- agnostics who assume the negative postion of 'knowing nothing but phenomena and refuse to believe in anything else.' It is true that the married man cannot be an adept, yet without striving to become 'a Raja Yogi' ,he can acquire certain powers and do as much good to mankind and often more, by remaining within the precincts of this world of his. Therefore, shall we not ask you to precipitately change fixed habits of life, before the full l convinction of its necessity and advantage has possessed you. You are a man to be left to lead himself, and may be so left with safety. Your resolution is taken to deserve much: time will effect the rest. There are more ways than one for acquiring occult knowledge. 'Many are the grains of incense destined for one and the same altar: one falls sooner into the fire, the other later - the difference of time is nothing.' remarked a great man when he was refused admission and supreme initiation into the mysteries. There is a tone of complaint in your question whether there ever will be a renewal of the vision you had, the night before the picnic day.. Methinks, were you to have a vision nightly, you would soon cease to treasure them at all. But there is a far weightier reason why you should not have a surfeit - it would be a waste of our strength. As often as I, or any of us can communicate with you, whether by dreams, waking impressions, letters (in or out of pillows) or personal visits in astral form - it will be done. But remember that Simla is 7,000 feeet higher than Allahabad, and the difficulties to be surmounted at the latter are tremendous. I abstain from encouraging you to expect too much. for, like yourself, I am loathe to promise what, for various reasons, I may not be able to perform. "The term 'Universal Brotherhood' is no idle phrase. Humanity in the mass has a paramount claim upon us, as I try to explain in my letter to Mr. Hume, which you had better ask the loan of. It is the only secure foundation for universal morality. If it be a dream, it is at least a noble one for mankind: and it is the aspiration of the true adept. Yours faithfully Koot' Hoomi Lal Singh From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 20:39:44 -0500 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: ML Chronol #5, TO: A Bain Alan: the 2 parts of Chronological # 5 I transmitted today & yesterday, are equivalent to Roman Number IV. Autumn Chicken. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:06:29 -0400 From: dsbdavis@omni.voicenet.com (Derek Davis) Subject: Online Besant edition Hello-- I hope I'm not intruding, but I've just published an electronic edition of "Evolution and Occultism" by Annie Besant, a reprint of vol. 3 of a collection of articles and lectures first published in 1913. I'm doing this as part of my online publishing business, so it's not free but, I think, cheap enough ($5; $4.50 for members--and membership *is* free, for now). I'm not that directly familiar with Theosophical writings, but I read a great deal about occultism more years ago that I like to think about, just after leaving college. When I decided to start up an online publishing business, I was concentrating mostly on a magazine but wanted to do books also, and occult and arcana titles seemed natural. I started by using the University of Pennsylvania library as my source--they have an interesting and varied collection. If anyone is interested in the Besant, you can read a selection from it at http://pobox.com/slt/retread.html. And if you think online reprints of such works are worthwhile, I'd appreciate suggestions for public domain titles (prior to 1920) that you'd like to see done. I noticed mention of Alice Bailey on this list. I'm not familiar with her work--are there titles by her which might be useful to be online? Thanks for listening. I've enjoyed many of the comments I've seen here over the last week or so. The belief structure isn't mine, but the gentle decency and openness of outlook is more than refreshing. And I must say that I came away from working on the Besant book with a true appreciation of her as a highly moral (as opposed to moralistic) person and remarkably strong woman. --Derek Davis Derek Davis derek@troll.com Voice: 215-222-4956 http://pobox.com/slt/ (home of Silly Little Troll Publications) "Everything takes longer than it does." --Murphy's lawyer From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:42:40 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Laws of nature ASTREA, It was Augustine. I was shocked when I first read the quote. I love it now that it has become part of my hopes. In the version I read it in it was translated " Love God and do what you please!" Sound antinominan,lawless, but it is the greatest commandment that leads to the greatest freedom. Regardless how you configure what God is. Love The Universe and do as you please reads similarly. Under the Mercy, Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 13:45:30 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Jerry I had a system crash, 6 hours reinitializing complete hard drive, and missed your response to me about Law and Crowley could you resend it e-mail or online. Thanks Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Apr 95 15:00:54 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Kabbalah Part 2 Some brief comments on Kabbalah part 2 Good definitions. The same can probably be said for the Globes of HPB's GV Model. This seems to be in agreement with the GD. This seems to agree with my own statements about Daath representing a Ring-Pass-Not, the highest realm (state) possible for the human mind. An old, but excellent text on Tree symbolisms. < We shall see in Part Three that whenever a "Daath" position is reached, it becomes, to developing awareness, the "Yesod" or Foundation of the level above, and there is another Tree to climb!> I really like this idea. < any ideas we might get that we are in any way some sort of "magicians" with "special powers" belong to the comic books and science fiction or fantasy movies, not real life.> I agree that "special powers" are not granted to us out of hand but the process or act of visiting these realms (or deliberately shifting consciousness to the alterted states associated with the Sephiroth) is itself magical. It can be done in imagination (our so-called magical imagination via scrying using various objects such as Tarot cards, for example) or in fact via astral travel. When we travel (or however we want to describe the process) through the Tree, we often encounter things as well as what seem to be living entities. If nothing else, we generally learn new things. By the time we arrive at Daath, which is Knowledge, we must surely have learned a thing or two about this universe of ours. Can this knowledge not be used to do things of a magical nature? Is it not possible that in these realms or states, we can learn how to become more sensitive to others (i.e., see or feel auras) and get glimpses of the illusive nature of time and space (see past and future events, maybe even our own past lives, and so on)? In short, while we may not become Adepts from pathworking, we sometimes can gain those foundation materials from which Adepts are made, and further our own spiritual development in some small measure through that. Just a thought. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Apr 95 14:59:40 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Paul J Paul: Thanks Paul. I haven't read the article, but I can imagine what it says. My father died last year of a stroke. He was a devout CS, and requested that he be allowed to die peacefully in bed rather than be taken to a hospital, and that is what happened. On the other hand, my mother died over 20 years ago from complications with a brain tumor. She was a good CS, but at that time my father wasn't so he took her to a hospital. They operated on the brain tumor. The operation was a success, but she never came out of the anesthesia. So, although people die in CS, they die in hospitals too. I am no longer into CS at all, but my formative years in that organization have left me today with a healthy distrust of doctors and medical science in general. I read an article recently in USNews&WRep or Time (??) about the internal probelms (including financial) that the church is having in Boston. Glad I am out of it. The problem of children of CS parents has always been a thorny issue. My wife and I always took ours to the doctor and gave them medication, etc. None are in CS today, including me and my wife (who is a good Methodist com theosophist). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Apr 95 15:00:16 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Alan Alan: Thank you for Part 2. Your use of the Tarot is especially interesting to me. When writing in the Enochian milieu, I was faced with the problem that the standard Tarot with its 22 trump cards simply didn't fit. So, I had to design my own own deck. The Enochian Tarot has 30 trump cards, one for each of Dee's Aethyrs. I was very reluctant to move away from the standard structure of 22 trump cards, but was forced to do so. To those unfamiliar with Tarot: The theory behind the Tarot deck is that the deck reflects the structure of our universe; as above so below, the universe is a macrocosm and the Tarot is a microcosm (as are we). It is the Western equivalent of the I Ching (although C.G. Jung says that this role belongs to Geomancy, Geomancy never caught on like Tarot). So, meditating on the cards is equivalent to meditating on the universe itself. Reading the Tarot, like reading the I Ching is a synchronistic event in the Jungian sense (Jung gives an excellent interpretation of how the I Ching works in his intro to Wilhelm's translation, and I believe that this can be carried over to the Tarot as well). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Apr 95 15:01:54 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re ML #5 part 1 Liesel: I got part 2 of 2 of ML#5 twice (once from buds and once from theos-l), but never got a part 1. Was part 1 of 2 sent?? Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 18:06:16 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re ML #5 part 1 Jerry, Part 1 of ML choronol. # 5 was sent the day before part 2. I sent both to - buds & to - l, because some people didn't seem to know how to tap in to - buds. I'll try to retrieve part 1 & send it to you again. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 23:55:11 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 > Some brief comments on Kabbalah part 2 > show a progression in reverse order of the "lightning > flash,"> > > This seems to be in agreement with the GD. Quite a lot is, but some is not. The GD was a product of its time, and _either_ not all its info was accurate, _or_ they deliberately distorted it to make us find it! > then becomes the "Yesod" or Foundation of the world of Briah, > Creation, or Paradise.> > > This seems to agree with my own statements about Daath > representing a Ring-Pass-Not, the highest realm (state) > possible for the human mind. Yes - but Daath in Briah. > > > An old, but excellent text on Tree symbolisms. In print again, I believe, and my own first introduction. > < We shall see in Part Three that whenever a "Daath" position > is reached, it becomes, to developing awareness, the "Yesod" > or Foundation of the level above, and there is another Tree > to climb!> > > I really like this idea. My experience is that it is more than an idea! Given that you know the subject already, construct a "lightning flash" diagram using a circle basis for accuracy, but instead of stopping at 10, go on to 32. Do not ignore Daath positions, but number them in series. Paths 1 - 3 are the 3 veils, Path 4 the Kether of Atziluth, Path 7 the Daath of Atziluth. Path 10 is the Kether of Briah, as the worlds "overlap" in the emanative process in the same way as the Sephiroth. ie, each world begins its emanation from the heart of the one above. So - Paths 1 - 7 form a hexagram with Path 4 at the centre, showing the 7-fold attribute-principle which will tie Kabalah in with all other seven-fold systems, and so on down the Tree, which will be a "Jacobs Ladder" containing ten and not nine, ten and not eleven Sephiroth. Hope you can follow that - if not, holler! > < any ideas we might get that we are in any way some sort of > "magicians" with "special powers" belong to the comic books > and science fiction or fantasy movies, not real life.> > > I agree that "special powers" are not granted to us out of > hand but the process or act of visiting these realms (or > deliberately shifting consciousness to the alterted states > associated with the Sephiroth) is itself magical. It can be > done in imagination (our so-called magical imagination via > scrying using various objects such as Tarot cards, for > example) or in fact via astral travel. > > When we travel (or however we want to describe the process) > through the Tree, we often encounter things as well as what > seem to be living entities. If nothing else, we generally > learn new things. By the time we arrive at Daath, which is > Knowledge, we must surely have learned a thing or two about > this universe of ours. Can this knowledge not be used to do > things of a magical nature? Is it not possible that in these > realms or states, we can learn how to become more sensitive > to others (i.e., see or feel auras) and get glimpses of the > illusive nature of time and space (see past and future > events, maybe even our own past lives, and so on)? In short, > while we may not become Adepts from pathworking, we sometimes > can gain those foundation materials from which Adepts are > made, and further our own spiritual development in some small > measure through that. > Just a thought. > > Jerry S. All of the above is true of a single Tree in Yetzirah, and so, yes, such things and experiences have a limited usefulness. However, the work of the aspirant may result, as HPB might have said, in the acquirement of siddhis, but they are of no lasting value at the level of "adepthood" [horrid word in my vocabulary]. Yetzirah is also the world of Purgatory or purification, and insofar as the kind of experience you mention helps us to purify our natures, then all well and good - but they are not ends in themselves, and many are extremely variable at the level of interpretation. I have met people whi get hooked on "pathworking" to the extent that they have no hope of further progress until they get unhooked. Unfortunately, it can be extremely enjoyable to go on playing "astral games." :-) Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 00:27:15 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Tarot > Alan: theos-buds. Part two deals mostly with the Tarot.> > Thank you for Part 2. Your use of the Tarot is especially > interesting to me. > Jerry S. In Part Two, I use the cards in a manner which I suspect Waite may have done. In Part Three the Tarot starts at Path Eleven [same as GD]. There are at least three ways of using the Tarot trumps that I use. Part Two Tarot needs the diagram to follow it properly, and I will see what size if comes out as a GIF file. If sensible, I will upload it as a binary using UU or MIME or whatever this software does with it! [to theos-buds]. My own suspicion about the Tarot as we have it is that it was deliberately conceived as a vehicle to contain the Kabalist symbolism during a historical time when such studies could result in getting fried. "Hi, is that the Inquisition?" "Yeah, Inquisition here." "Could you send me a coupla Kabalists with Fries?" "Sure thing!" Sorry about that - probably wrong period, but if we can't have a laugh at our oh-so-serious studies, then we're probably doing it wrong. :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 02 Apr 95 21:08:44 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Re: Judgement Day > After the year 1000 A.D., churches went up throughout Europe, > especially in France and Germany, to express thanks at the > postponement of Judgment Day. Wonder what humanity will build in > thanks for making it past the year 2000? >Do you have sources and/or citations I can refer to re this >particular building program? It has particular and direct >relevance to another project of mine. TIA [I hope]. There are >quite a few in Britain from this period on, as well. >Alan What is TIA? I found it difficult to get information on the doomsday period around 1000 A.D. and this was all I could find in my puny electronic encyclopedia (The People's Chronology, licensed from Henry Holt and Company, Inc. Copyright C 1992 by James Trager). I found this time period personally fascinating because I took a lot of architectural history courses about the great churches of Europe in college. Unfortunately, any of those books are long gone. Although I realize that Christianity has done more than enough to turn away the occultist or Theosophist, it still seems the natural path for me to follow the Western tradition of mysticism. Anyone on Theos-l have information on Gnosticism? - Ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 95 08:08:10 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Various Comments guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: >> guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: >>> >>> Dogma: Consciousness is a state of being. >>> Awareness is a funtion of consciousness. >>> >>> [Channeled teaching!] >>> >>> Alan. >> >> Now, if we start writing channelled teachings, where will it >> end? ;-) >> >> ASTREA > > Enlightenment? I doubt it! Just my 2 [local currency] worth. > It will end with this list just being another New Age hang out. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 95 08:10:35 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 > I agree that "special powers" are not granted to us out of > hand but the process or act of visiting these realms (or > deliberately shifting consciousness to the alterted states > associated with the Sephiroth) is itself magical. It can be > done in imagination (our so-called magical imagination via > scrying using various objects such as Tarot cards, for > example) or in fact via astral travel. The only "special power" I want is wisdom. It's the only one that's any use, IMHO, ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 95 08:05:06 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 > Yetzirah is also the world of Purgatory or purification, and > insofar as the kind of experience you mention helps us to purify > our natures, then all well and good - but they are not ends in > themselves, and many are extremely variable at the level of > interpretation. > > I have met people whi get hooked on "pathworking" to the extent > that they have no hope of further progress until they get > unhooked. Unfortunately, it can be extremely enjoyable to go on > playing "astral games." :-) I had one go at "pathworking" which was enough to put me off for sometime to come, maybe forever. Encountered an extremely unpleasant entity, somewhere between Malkuth and Yesod - maybe part of myself, maybe not. But he's not getting out! ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 01:54:40 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Tarot GIF table `!"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>? @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_ begin 644 tarot2.gif M1TE&.#=A:0$^`I,`````````J`"H``"HJ*@``*@`J*A4`*BHJ%145%14_%3\ M5%3\_/Q45/Q4_/S\5/S\_"P`````:0$^`@,$^_#)2:N]..O-N_]@J`&`B)%F MJJYLZ[YP+,^TA;IWK>]\[__`8"7'*@F/R*1RR2P:6\^F=$JM6F%1%?'*[7J_ MTJU)#"Z;S^@5&;1.N]]P=[LSC]OO^"6IGMEG\X"!@CI^?#9&>X.*BXPBB1*/ M'EN1C966BWY#AI03G)>?H')MF8=UGJ&HJ52GI86LI:JQLGJ&%(5CM;.ZN[A_ M/Z^\P<)TN33`P\C)QT#+R9=Y4KI MY^Q,Z^K9[?))[^[Q\_@]I'CU^?Y.ON[T\TBGH*`^LPC-"C.H8R*8CJ*E!M374J;HGNZ*ZK4*E2#6;UJ;Z?"K5R%@$WU M,.R@L="RFH7G527:M5C:YGP+]T$\NEKQ(G5UBX/>FMGXUI5TJJPMM1=K\>T[ M&);?28@7`IL<>=ZT2'^U%58L=^_=$I5-$@G?0L-KB%KMX8)P_WX MNN2ZVCQ+]VFL1O>AM;Y/!.=M=[@FL\:/$SS,Y(.AVW(NO=-R-M4A47^! M`G4?5\47BQ\/_M83X^BSV]TND;S[]_#CRY]/O[[]\=S5;1=D].`QM`G*5DH030H=A1-)M")@6%;*7@H:)EOWH7T&7&YM)C/-20^;@BGNM"-@X`$Y@W]&)DD/ M8THVZ>234$8IY9145FGEE5AFJ>667';IY9=@ABGFF&26:>:9:*:IYIILMNGF MFW#&*>><=-9IYYUXYJGGGGSVZ>>?@`8JZ*"$%FKHH8@FJNBBC#;JZ*.01BKI MI%3V9^FEF&:JZ:;W6BNNN>[[*JU&_JNVUN[X=P*+RWSHENO9G/(>^^1G!2Y M;UJ:Z+OO35&0(EBHH)E7*<(,-^SPPWWM,^Z,"1?GJG@70\Q8=PF?-_#'((_$FK*H,B6,OKO@SS)3UV///*KN9\L\O@[MS$Q#X3TG/0QO@' M--$,X7UWSWV@&GO;=`3_\=UV/^VB%PGF3D@#%*^#UY M_/AZ,D`V2N`@KI%R74A.U6IR9[."M6,;/,YSJ2V.-@2(%R1.>2]-P\B'=V>/ M77"_?JN>^NHFYMY8,9EYKKC'8RLG?/`CI1A=<*@91E+!H!-_6/&H`W^J<0O8P"4WP&ETCFV]:]["'3@Z6IG/G%UYS"8$1_V MAO([2I@"@D+[%@']1D(%A"$TYB?TXL(.F< M$L/*@<:'0)1B"<>X,I89"!',JV`84TB_:1D%C6I\8?G6J(K?C2A[=`Q/^(34 M1898,($!S!_\\H@*">KOC!-\GVJNZ+0@#I%J;+1>')GWP@&:[G)8L8'L;D@\ M3D82@_WBHPG11[?6X6(Z:`.>SNQ(0;C5#8"J].0A[[@UHO319(29WB7AJ,JT MB5&#I0S>]>ZW2DM^KWF&"R)G1AFZ7\:OEY!S9AL-J#\!U@Z.,SQCX:[7-;,1 M#H.YU.02!SG'"0(3#(:TW/QDF<7O;--'L-LD.S-2M;XUTE0!))\OS?G)5.$1 MCQJ<7"Z5!\@N'OP,FYH#9#\C9D;R*0Z4\&PE,Z_PP+*DDX]>T=LK#.:%8=[R MF1&5'3$$J<*2MG%CLZP&0R6&QE+E[*,#U"-%T[C`Z2VLH1T49S$1HLFCB1&< M8[@21H%Z4DPRPY/+6J0B-214(2$3AQ/U!DM703;+=:BI(Q7I"4#941#"$IE! M]92M+$E(:%*56XA()!G#6J5\3>ZGZV3+0>DEM@7*%`=8K:4[<6G7LRY)EDT< M7%N7YT(Y+C6J4E7'2Q&ZUG<-=C>OM"<8&UJ#$1Z5E1D\D2-MM#SED,Z8-17+ M[<"5UJ*&\+%;K:O_B'I`0_Z"K$<-9#N=-26K(K"QHV3D93-1E'/[:O6T"VOF M)K]YV+N*)3)*U2=B\R-61WQ2-2#=*0\"6UGIKI,UF\V-'V\[VFAB)J7\6N2I M,/M(?7PT7BR"Y6==2LS*4E(M!9UMT9K+!CPVTJ3)%:QU--)2QJHVMJC5W7*! M.,>#7)$IWU4N;G>0766@Q[-6A>LJ8R#%=$@0L/)E\'EKE:#V2E:U*CHHYQ)X M0^H:E;D!CAXWP6K7$Q/7N+IS[1YA#-S:FJO%A`7M^$X385BH9O;;,Y70?"4L1HRULG" M3K*O)K*9TRQJ.,V-9V9P. M^I>UX_2EC@BJ&R:7^)H9-*E[KT/HUA:9FU_LY)T5#=[R(MHOUOTMH0D+1OMEE&#"736 M'\[VSZXLT:OT3]>K[K5JGXEL[G[Z?&3KIT[AH;UG[ZYGE8X@C<7=;A876,?$ MD#=PW=;@0@+\R1MS\G!?#%EL+VC>`$[TJ77"[[TB^H(%MWAJ#8YDL#0\0\T2 MKL7[:^9AX;ATC.5P<;AYDSGJ832F&!?YQ/6M,],H9I:FX=SWII.)YMDPW9]DACEU82UI<&^OZDF*%LLC*7.(_]F"7G<= MUIOLSM*\F]-+^>'&.8ZW0[?BGO(4*=)5OA@EV2\:++O1#N>^W>"6J]&9'6C9 MOY[BKO(NOR-]^TVZ'?8ANV;Q%L,\.ONK^:;L/>IL99^G*4UX+1OO:IV-CEY1 M7P1K57PV6Z39Z`GYK3:+CE6C1_53"\-Z>Q^O2)_/>K#SMAG1&QYP19^]K./> M^+#-._99++ULFB^'\/&5[,8WDM[2C@[K*W_DM:_\O'>YOPJ`=IJ,EJVG1_S> M6O(;(\:\_K[0[[[^L+PWWS?I=I_B9:VF1K(.=$M'=]?]% MU95Y**9GBV=MX^0K61@+4\5@HM8AQL)C^+1C=`&$#A>%6$9B[=.'7C1;W6,K MOV=D#-)OMQ$@G0=C_.:F3Q)"B+"7>U"`@U((!22E?R@4A]YP=:1WAC"X@Q1F M1`XB@8[X-&'6=T!GB*=W7=(VA?F15OV`@9#&AY$C3Y?H&9J(9?TF;GSX%-`U M$+$&=03GB=IG3A&"4)`WAND6;U!F@Q`H#0P867^H=>DS?Z$XA!.XB/7%?L\3 M$Q>U@GNF;!J&<`/H:PYU>T%AC*NH6V%V;4)1&;+8:CX04)*'BU8828!D7I55=M8@AN"D#)H/5=E:1P)(1ZY>O[F0>=(.8](.PG7>OR[J'"V MD3\QHFFI]5"#A#LC^2+W%I%$I'2P@8KI]W1)Z(-YN#HT`E$YZ91Z*`XK^8P^ M*$D*YH9,"7C1YG8ZQT#EADNJF&N(R$(.*'A3V75JIW[+:%NFA758*$IJ^7JU M%9=P.6M]9&C:F&;]5Y"A$X*2^)'$!H)#29(R5DE80X8C>4V$(K*)"0 MN1P>:$H[,BLQZ6;G=X11HB/.=2N6&3@$U8)"62G8Z!'GQA:2%1A"-6E?QY;V M8)($N9!Q-H-=:8'D055*-I,]Z9`Q$UV6Z$8_U'0CAI(,"(O&DBN,$R29%Y53 MI(WHV'"8=XM`(IV5")S=))I.*25$B83\R'>;>"=5M]8*S#DZKP-;W#"8;I67 MRLE,WEFF+'3>?M0:3%6; MULA7B`=VX$F$NKD["QJ0M2B>CNA[Y@9Y.[B=KQ6=O`DL:NB?D[AOR(AG\NB; M>FF3TR5\`B8]2W8LY%A:W/:,C:E%H$F=#XI%O:"AH;=LO#1<\]2(IH>B[J6C MFNF5[T*DS#%C:%AUA!695@1!%\*BB7E=Q%BAUT:7 MT(:4-+IB>>:D=>4A!OIM'\A!Y9914]0;),)E-XJ=`X#>04O-! M212H@OH>_(UU8A]D(4ZU8,R9FZ)H1*PXJ*@XI;29&+5TJ'K*1>7)B0P*$:YI MJ=E',(K*F;:8F>:(,U9&65]:9I&Z>;28J3PJFZ#6EUAPIFA%<0DZ>4Y!JLM@ MGPXUC_IAH\>EJ;>*J\0Z49L@;Z3"4BNFK/P10_F(GVC*>.#TAJ<)F$*)81C7 M2\RVBK]F>US59CN7-S19I_4G3)MJ@=R:+]5T2*3V8Y?67=MGG[$$=68U$3%R M.(S$;J*PGE9DI;3:K@$5B@S5JW&UC^BFDRE)Y]#J$N%];3A MU:7+R*7YY)ODA6-05856F74F6WI8J6:@1[&KNH?F$4N^!ZTDBZ>C"E%H27@E MF:)3%Z9R>1%#QUO&%(\TBQ5.%ZV%E[9Q*Z3F`%-*AK<[![)$*[*TA;9F>28Z M5E:T^)KKBKB_"85R*Z9A`I^R:*"U&KG:LH%F%JN,.U8O=[:;:ZZ2:XFYB+:` MNR6=(9.(6+-Y%ZS%I35JPAFI=Z[DL&'A**RA&[9\Z5>IDGA`6[N(!U=GYW/! M"6??&9D=Z@^/-[K4)I^3JDW\ODNNO8N)94:J3ZB]KUB=?/8FP^$Y=KJ]L$I+ MJGN^?VDF3EMKZY:PTSBL$\@F7GAGO(H-#QND MLD(5XGNX+>1RBR9U'5'%DA%B*1NUV3E]I:C&?0)?[#B1)%R/^)9C7.@G!3=I6:G%,PUNWK=ZK@'S)$F@,(82Y"\OX85P*ZK4-2VQ(%:`3'2>\(]-6>K)#Q7`&0KCC"LV='#3^^(I\2KU,@ZI9^85,B2H8RLE0[(KGG-)O?5PQA1>0G9^Y M+%?`FL"_$G2Z/8[\#AW.VOG:$9UH(YW2,XN;C/G`.9W,=?NXXAC4',R%S1W4 M>SETP!LL&*FW`(TLF5RZT[TKBH'>*%TM,(2;\YX=< M$>?1\%*/(][/\EPR*%BJ2APU(S/?[\?+K`DREPC'`Y[148PMXNJ^_#([T/DG MC=ZB//U=YS^;AHP-Y`%.Y5'>W3H)Z'FU5K=\+6MDR`NND"H.E2:LP:MLZ%_" MXNU15:5,QI3.)6A^B%>6Z2I#4OA[U80>Z>'BQ(^^I-&KO%<:,F9(2V#.C.;G MZ@C>R[+>9VS.AH) MVS$^7N8IYA.VTIK<[+\MV`0,KGMNQL)NN9-=O^_+MC-C1NI,YZ2MYK2N:KY8(>KNP1]XQ08_YDC# MXRH4J3LLTP71._[FX%Y_R.=3JK3C*N-J,0_ZN?.^1GKMIB[:`= M?]2NK8-N[%UT%FQ30Z>4&-S`:&59XMGZ$`W\'8 M#C;'N>\NN3?WS5;LHNEWTW?RGKH"]K)E$YCZFHGN_CWV#O)TK:B,S;?8O.F] MLI6F,/;JC-!JP\,]'#?(#O1]RC4H^#J]OL0"W_`>3IL\MO-9;^?L.?+Z*OZ-KJ=*/3\E;"Y23?_%31QJ7S^K2W9@9#].&.;`G MO/EI2.)?2/JW[OA'C_HWCM>L3_EOGNJOCZ*Q/?M#/ZR?G]P>J_JVW]I&9_:G M[NSHWOO[Z2OCQ)_L\I7[#][X)G_\H6V-RG_DC0_\7;[MU-\N%<^]SA^B0A?] M\KW9E;W]<.ML;R_^JS;%T&[^\9:+(`?O8"]`H>_]Q&*4#23_XGV;7Z_^IZJS M^C^..=O_$/#DI-52D._.8'\P%$>R-$\T55>V=5_XU&0OMF\\UW>^]]D9K?8C M%HU'9%()"J:&2VA4.J5*FZAK5;OE=KV->1-`OT'"0A+!PS##1<9&#$4Q2,=)RCW$D+4E;:VE>7I]D27=M>VMB))LG4QS"37E]D46`)8=2A&ECG MX&1JW]B."@WLTT=FC.GJ\%_/[6_9;.]@:''VU?+/X5OSW/5V>^6\=W39Y_IT M[GL!-TEC1NS#,(,S8`ED.-#9L3BOA#6D6-'B18P9-6[DV-'C1Y`A18XD6=+D M290I5:YDV=+E2Y@Q9[DV=/G3Z!!A0XE6M3H4:1)E2YEVC0" "`#LI ` end From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 01:55:07 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Tarot GIF Pic uploaded to go with Keys to Kabbala Part 2 - uuencoded. Hope it arrives in one piece - though the top is missing anyway, as I had to get it from a screen dump out of WordPerfect! Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 03 Apr 95 11:58:39 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Some Responses & Comments Here follows some answers, responses, and comments. Sorry about the length, but it is easier for me to do it all in one glomp than in bits and pieces. ASTREA: Just how do you define wisdom, and how will we know it when we see it? I don't really think that you are being flip with your response here, but could you take some time and try to define what wisdom means to you for me? And, after that, please tell me, after aquiring it, how you would "use" it? I would like to hear your views on this. ASTREA: Again, I can't tell if you are being flip, or humorous, or are serious here. If serious, then you have a big problem. You can't just ignore such an "unpleasant entity" and hope that it will go away; it won't. What we see in pathworking is similar to what we see in our dreams, and both are indications of our spiritual development and our relationship with the unconscious. Your perception that this entity may be part of yourself is a good start in overcoming it. ASTREA: You are answering with seriousness to Alan's humor. But I agree that we don't want to be another New Age hang out. I suspect that there are enough theosophical folks among us to assure that this won't happen. Ann: < Anyone on Theos-l have information on Gnosticism?> I have written a book on Gnostic Magic, which like many books is still awaiting a publisher. I don't know if I can answer your questions or not, but I can try. Are you interested in Gnosticism the religion or in Gnostic Magic or in Gnostic history? Alan: < if we can't have a laugh at our oh-so-serious studies, then we're probably doing it wrong> Absolutely! Alan: This sounds like my wife's directions for how to get to her friend's house. Give me a few days to work on this one. The only lightening flash that I have is from the GD, and they use a different numbering system. Alan: Agreed as to "lasting" value. But precipitation is a lot faster than the US mail. :-) Alan: Agreed. Actually, most of the magicians that I know agree with this. Astrea's "wisdom" is, I would guess, what they call the Great Work, and all else is just so much fluff or window dressing. Psychic abilities (which are potential in all of us) are not goals nor are they ends in themselves. But when they come naturally as we develop, they can be useful to further the Great Work. Alan: This is also true for meditation. James Long pointed out to me years ago that many people get to like meditating so much that they find themselves meditating just to be meditating. Techniques such as meditation and pathworking are just that - techniques. They are tools for us to use; means to an end, but not an end in themselves. Liesel: <. I'll try to retrieve part 1 & send it to you again.> Thanks. Arthur: < could you resend it e-mail or online.> Am sending a copy to you now by email. ASTREA: < " Love God and do what you please!" Sounds antinominan, lawless, but it is the greatest commandment that leads to the greatest freedom. Regardless how you configure what God is. Love The Universe and do as you please reads similarly.> Yes. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:19:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser Subject: ULT booklet about Bailey Hi, for those who are interested: Alice Leighton-Cleather's booklet: ~The Pseudo-Occultism of Mrs. A. Bailey~ is published by the Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 16:12:43 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Various Comments >>>> Alan. >>> >>> Now, if we start writing channelled teachings, where will it >>> end? ;-) >>> >>> ASTREA >> >> Enlightenment? I doubt it! Just my 2 [local currency] worth. >> > It will end with this list just being another New Age hang out. > > ASTREA Now suppose I delete "channelled teaching" and replace with "a deeper understanding as perceived during meditation upon the inner planes" - ? In 1875, _Theosophists_ were "New Age" - and said so. In fact the New age-ers stole our clothes, in one sense, except that in some ways they may have improved the design, as in other ways they have sullied it. [IMHO]. Or how about "Received while in communication with my Higher Self?" - or "God said?" That process, perhaps, mentioned by HPB in the SD [3rd ed. 1893 ff. - vol I p.631]: "Jesus _the Initiate_ ... his own "Father," whom he knew, and with whom he communed ... "Spirit to Spirit and Soul to Soul." Our theosophical 'fathers' and 'mothers' are said to be the higher selves of each one of us acting within - offering us each, as individuals, the opportunity (not always taken) to see and know more deeply. I thought it would be interesting to use the term "channelled" to see what happened [as also the word "dogma" which means "teaching"]. Both words can arouse emotive responses these days :-). In all our studies, IMO, we are continually faced with the problem of semantics, of defining our terms. Here in our theosophy corner we have our own jargon, just as we would in the physics laboratory. "When I use a word," said Humpty Dumpty, "It means whatever I want it to mean." "Progress was all right once, but it's gone on far too long." [paraphrased ? from Ogden Nash]. So, maybe, in its own way, our list is an "Old New Age" hang out. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 16:57:38 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Re: Judgement Day > After the year 1000 A.D., churches went up throughout Europe, especially in France and Germany, to express thanks at the postponement of Judgment Day. Wonder what humanity will build in thanks for making it past the year 2000? >>Do you have sources and/or citations I can refer to re this >>particular building program? It has particular and direct >>relevance to another project of mine. TIA [I hope]. There are >>quite a few in Britain from this period on, as well. > >>Alan > > What is TIA? Thanks In Advance. > I found it difficult to get information on the doomsday period around 1000 A.D. and this was all I could find in my puny electronic encyclopedia (The People's Chronology, licensed from Henry Holt and Company, Inc. Copyright C 1992 by James Trager). > I found this time period personally fascinating because I took a lot of architectural history courses about the great churches of Europe in college. Unfortunately, any of those books are long gone. All of the great churches (and some smaller ones) in Britain that I have been able to see a ground plan of exhibit exactly and precisely the "Jacob's Ladder" diagram I have developed in Kabbalist studies, from the great west door to the eastern end of the church. Some are illustrated in my latest publication on Sepher Yetzirah, mentioned elsewhere. > Although I realize that Christianity has done more than enough to turn away the occultist or Theosophist, it still seems the natural path for me to follow the Western tradition of mysticism. Anyone on Theos-l have information on Gnosticism? > - Ann There's gnosticism and gnosticism and gnosticism! I am sure you will get plenty of feedback on this. IMO, a great deal of nonsense is described as "gnostic". Are you interested in a historical [Christian] perspective particularly? A start here would be ~The Nag Hammadi Library in English~ pub. Brill; Leiden and elsewhere, ed. Robinson. This contains the well-known Gospel of Thomas and much more, being part of the library of a presumed gnostic sect in Egypt circa 4th century. There is also a great deal of information in the polemic of the early church fathers (pre-nicene) who quoted gnostic teachings in order to refute them [as they saw it]. I have a lot of this stuff on my own bookshelves, so do not hesitate to contact me if it seems useful. On the occult front, then Kabbalah represents the Western Tradition, having acquired Christian elements in its progress through time. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 17:13:52 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 > I had one go at "pathworking" which was enough to put me off for > sometime to come, maybe forever. Encountered an extremely > unpleasant entity, somewhere between Malkuth and Yesod - maybe > part of myself, maybe not. But he's not getting out! > > ASTREA Wise move. He might start subscribing to theos-l :-). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 17:16:58 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 > The only "special power" I want is wisdom. It's the only one > that's any use, IMHO, > > ASTREA Amen. Theosophia - "Divine Wisdom." If, in your travels, you get to see the Church of Hagia Sophia in Istanbul (now a mosque) look up in the dome at the Lady Herself. You can get a large poster of this, which when the scale used in The Ladder [Keys, pt. 3] is used, coincides exactly with the parts that matter ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 02:38:11 -0500 From: OSMAR DE CARVALHO Subject: Re: LCC et al... This is to Ann E. Bermingham: AEB> On the LCC: AEB> The early missals were Old Catholic until Leadbeater and AEB> Wedgewood could write a new one. If anyone has ever AEB> read the liturgy, they would no doubt recognize of lot AEB> of Theosophy between the lines. I do agree with you, and more; in the TS we hear a lot about the real religious spirit, that theosophy is the core of every major tradition, but we do insignificant efforts to lead people to realize, in practical terms, the "inner mystery" of their own religion. To help individuals to "cross" the edge between intellectual conceptions and historic evaluations about religion -a mayavic Kama-Manas approach, to a direct and vivid experience of the "sacred" which is "within" and that is evoked "externally", in mythical terms, in each ritualistic service -a touch in the realm of immortality through higher emotions and mind in search of Buddhi/intuition. AEB> It is easy to see that those who have developed a definite AEB> dislike for organized religion or were raised in an oppressive AEB> Catholic atmosphere, would find the church utterly abhorrent. AEB> I'm sure they felt they had gotten Aout from under that type AEB> of thing and now it was right in their faces. I was such kind of person before join TS, and I'm glad to speak that the theosophical studies and sociability gave me a new perspective on my own religion and others. The external and dead vision was washed with new waters; the dissonant notes was attuned, and new ones was added, and now I can see and hear a new range of harmonic impressions. This week I was asked: "How a person could become a theosophist, attending the TS meetings and studying its literature, and maintain its own born religious observances?" My friend expressed a view that only a non-religious -or rather atheistic- person could really join the TS and understand its message. My reply was that if one really study theosophy, consider its wisdom and tries to "live" its principles, no only he will maintain its religion but certainly will attain a far more higher point of experience of its tradition. Certainly such a person will arrive to "higher octaves" of spiritual experiences. So, in my own view I consider that such people who are conscious theosophists and members of the Liberal Catholic Church, and other religions or orders, are people who want to go deeper in the personal experience of the "mystery tradition", and who uses its rituals and observances as tools to fit their lower personal constituition to the "contact" with the higher one; no more tied to external dogmas, no more prone to make their religion a cause of separation, but really attuned with the transcendent divine wisdom and love which is carried by its experience. Namaste! *|) .. In this whole galaxy, there's somebody for everybody. (Dr. Crusher) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:48:16 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: MLC 4 & a half A.P. Sinnett's first book was ~The Occult World~ published in 1881. The following letter, excepting three passages, was contained in it. This letter from Master Koot Hoomi to A.O. Hume was not included in the first three editions of ~The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett~. Vic Hao Chin's chronological edition (abbreviated as MLC) puts it in Appendix I. There are slight differences in the wording of ~The Occult World~ letter and the MLC version. The three passages deleted from ~The Occult World~ are surrounded by double angle brackets << >>. -- Nicholas ************************ Amritsur Nov. 1st [1880] Dear Sir, Availing of the first moments of leisure to formally answer your letter of the 17th ultimo, I will now report the result of my conference with our chiefs upon the proposition therein contained; trying at the same time to answer all your questions. I am first to thank you on behalf of the whole section of our fraternity that is especially interested in the welfare of India for an offer of help whose importance and sincerity no one can doubt. Tracing our lineage through the vicissitudes of Indian civilization to a remote past, we have a love for our motherland so deep and passionate, that it has survived even the broadening and cosmopolitanizing (pardon me if this is not an English word) effect of our studies in the hidden laws of nature. And so I and every other Indian patriot feel the strongest gratitude for every kind word or deed that is given in her behalf. Imagine then, that since we are convinced that the degradation of India is largely due to the suffocation of her ancient spirituality; and that, whatever helps restore that higher standard of thought and morals must be a regenerating national force; every one of us would naturally and without urging be disposed to push forward a Society whose proposed formation is under debate; especially if it really is meant to become a society untainted by selfish motive, and whose object is the revival of ancient science and tendency to rehabilitate our country in the world's estimation. Take this for granted, without further asseverations. But you know, as any man who has read history, that patriots may burst their hearts in vain if circumstances are against them. Sometimes, it has happened that no human power, not even the fury and force of the loftiest patriotism, has been able to bend an iron destiny aside from its fixed course, and nations have gone out like torches dropped into water in the engulfing blackness of ruin. Thus, we who have the sense of our country's fall though not the power to lift her up at once, can not do as we would either as to general affairs or this particular one. And with the readiness but not the right to meet your advances more than half way we are forced to say that the idea entertained by Mr. Sinnett and yourself is impracticable in part. It is, in a word, impossible for myself or any Brother or even an advanced neophyte, to be specially assigned and set apart as the guiding Spirit or Chief of the Anglo-Indian Branch. We know it would be a good thing to have you and a few of your selected colleagues regularly instructed and shown the phenomena and their rationale. For though none but you few would be convinced, still it would be a decided gain to have even *a few* Englishmen of first- class ability enlisted as students of Asiatic Psychology. We are aware of all this and much more; hence we do not refuse to correspond with and otherwise help you in various ways. But what we do refuse is to take any other responsibility upon ourselves than this periodic correspondence and assistance with our advice; and, as occasion favours, such tangible, possibly visible proofs as would satisfy you of our presence and interest. To "guide" you we will not consent. However much we may be able to do, yet we can promise only to give you the full measure of your deserts. Deserve much and we will prove honest debtors; little and you need only expect a compensating return. This is not a mere text taken from a school boy's copybook, though it sounds so, but only the clumsy statement of the law of our order; and we can not transcend it. Utterly unacquainted with Western, especially English modes of thought and action, were we to meddle in an organization of such a kind you would find all your fixed habits and traditions incessantly clashing, if not with the new aspirations themselves, at least with their modes of realisation as suggested by us. You could not get unanimous consent to go even the length you might yourself. I have asked Mr. Sinnett to draft a plan embodying your joint ideas for submission to our chiefs, this seeming the shortest way to a mutual agreement. Under our "guidance" your Branch could not live, you not being men to be guided at all in that sense. Hence the Society would be a premature birth and a failure, looking as incongruous as a Paris Daumont drawn by a team of Indian yaks or camels. You ask us to teach you true Science, the occult aspect of the known side of nature: and this you think can be as easily done as asked. You do not seem to realize the tremendous difficulties in the way of imparting even the rudiments of *our* Science to those who have been trained in the familiar methods of *yours*. You do not see that the more you have of the one the less capable you are of intuitively comprehending the other, for a man can only think in his worn grooves, and unless he has the courage to fill up these and make new ones for himself he must perforce travel on the old lines. Allow me a few instances. In conformity with exact modern Science you would define but one cosmic energy, and see no difference between the energy expended by the traveller who pushes aside the bush that obstructs his path, and the scientific experimenter who expends an equal amount of energy in setting a pendulum in motion! We do. For we know there is a world of difference between the two. The one uselessly dissipates or scatters force, the concentrates and stores it. And here please understand that I do not refer to the relative utility of the two as one might imagine; but only to the fact, that in the one case, there is but brute force flung out without any transmutation of that brute energy into the higher potential form of spiritual dynamics, and, in the other there is just that. Please do not consider me vaguely metaphysical. The idea I wish to convey is, that the result of the highest intellection in the scientifically occupied brain is the evolution of a sublimated form of spiritual energy, which, in the cosmic action, is productive of illimitable results, while the automatically actin brain holds or stores up in itself only a certain quantum of brute force that is unfruitful of benefit for the individual or humanity. The human brain is an exhaustless generator of the most refined quality of cosmic force, out of the low, brute energy of nature; and the complete adept has made himself a center from which irradiate potentialities that beget correlations upon correlations through Aeons to come. This is the key to the mystery of his being able to project into and materialise in the visible world the forms that his imagination has constructed out of inert cosmic matter in the invisible world. The adept does not create anything new, but only utilises and manipulates materials which nature has in store around him; a material which throughout eternities has passed through all the forms; he has but to choose the one he wants and recall it into objective existence. Would not this sound to one of your "learned" biologists like a madman's dream? You say there are few branches of science with which you do not possess more or less acquaintance, and that you believe you are doing a certain amount of good, having acquired the position to do this by long years of study. Doubtless you do. But will you permit me to sketch for you still more clearly the difference between the modes of -- physical called exact -- often out of mere politeness - - and metaphysical sciences? The latter, as you know, being incapable of verification before mixed audiences, is classed by Mr. Tyndall with the fictions of poetry. The realistic science of fact, on the other hand, is utterly prosaic. Now for us poor and unknown philanthropists, no fact of either of these sciences is interesting except in the degree of its potentiality of *moral* results, and in the ratio of its usefulness to mankind. And what, in its proud isolation, can be more utterly indifferent to every one and everything, or more bound to nothing, but the selfish requisites for its advancement than this materialistic and realistic science of fact? May I not ask then without being taxed with a vain "display of science" what have the laws of Faraday, Tyndall, or others to do with philanthropy in the abstract relations with humanity viewed as an integral whole? What care they for MAN as an isolated atom of this great and harmonious Whole, even though they may sometimes be of practical use to him? Cosmic energy is something eternal and incessant, matter is indestructible, and there stand the scientific *facts*. Doubt them and you are an ignoramus; deny them, a dangerous lunatic; a bigot; pretend to improve upon the theories -- an impertinent charlatan. And yet even these scientific facts never suggested any proof to the world of experimenters, that nature consciously prefers that matter should be indestructible under organic rather than under inorganic forms; and that she works slowly but incessantly towards the realisation of this object -- the evolution of conscious life out of inert material. Hence their ignorance about the scattering and concretion of cosmic energy in its metaphysical aspects; their division about Darwin's theories; their uncertainty about the degree of conscious life in separate elements; and, as a necessity, the scornful rejection of every phenomenon outside their who stated conditions and the very idea of worlds of semi-intelligent if not intellectual forces at work in hidden corners of nature. To give you another practical illustration. We see a vast difference between the qualities of two equal amounts of energy expended by two men, of whom one, let us suppose, is on his way to his quiet daily work, and another on his way to denounce a fellow creature at the police station, while the men of science see none. And we -- not they -- see a specific difference between the energy in the motion of the wind and that of revolving wheel. And why? Because every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world and becomes an active entity by associating itself -- coalescing, we might term it -- with an elemental; that is to say with one of the semi- intelligent forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence, a creature of the mind's begetting, for a longer or shorter period proportionate with original intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus, a good thought is perpetuated as an active beneficent power; and an evil one as a maleficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a world of his own, crowded with the offspring of his fancies, desires, impulses, and passions, a current which reacts upon any sensitive or nervous organisation which comes in contact with it in proportion to its dynamic intensity. The Buddhist calls this his "Skandha," the Hindu gives it the name of "Karma"; the Adept evolves these shapes consciously, other men throw them off unconsciously. The adept to be successful and preserve his power must dwell in solitude and more or less within his own soul. Still less does exact science perceive that while the building ant, the busy bee, the nidifacient bird accumulate, each in their own humble way as much cosmic energy in its potential form as a Haydn, a Plato, or a ploughman turning his furrow, in theirs; the hunter who kills game for his pleasure or profit, or the positivist who applies his intellect to proving that + x + = -, are wasting and scattering energy no less than the tiger which springs upon its prey. They all rob nature instead of enriching her, and will all in the degree of their intelligence find themselves accountable. Exact experimental Science has nothing to do with morality, virtue, philanthropy, therefore can make no claim upon our help, until it blends itself with metaphysics. Being but a cold classification of facts outside man, and existing before and after him, her domain of usefulness ceases for us at the outer boundary of these facts; and whatever the inferences and results for humanity from the materials acquired by her methods, she little cares. Therefore as our sphere lies entirely outside hers -- as far as the path of *Uranus* is outside the earth's -- we distinctly refuse to be broken on any wheel of her construction. Heat is but a mode of motion to her, and motion developes heat; but why the mechanical motion of the revolving wheel should be should be metaphysically of a higher value than the heat into which it is gradually transformed -- she has yet to discover. The philosophical but transcendental (hence absurd?) notion of the mediaeval theosophists that the final progress of human labour aided by the incessant discoveries of man, must one day culminate in a process, which in imitation of the sun's energy -- in its capacity of a direct motor -- shall result in the evolution of nutritious food out of inorganic matter -- is unthinkable for men of science. Were the sun, the great nourishing father of our planetary System, to hatch granite chickens out of a boulder "under test conditions" tomorrow, they (the men of Science) would accept it as a scientific fact, without wasting a regret that the fowls were not alive so as to feed the hungry and the starving. But let a *Shaberon* cross the Himalayas in a time of famine, and multiply sacks of rice for the perishing multitudes -- as he could -- and your magistrates and collectors would probably lodge him in jail, to make him confess what granary he had robbed. This is exact science and your realistic world. And though as you say you are impressed by the vast extent of the world's ignorance on every subject, which you pertinently designate as "a few palpable facts collected and roughly generalized and a technical jargon invented to hide man's ignorance of all that lies behind those facts"; and though you speak of your faith in the infinite possibilities of nature -- yet you are content to spend your life in a work only that same exact science. <> Of your several questions we will first discuss, if you please, the one relating to the presumed failure of the "Fraternity" to "leave any mark upon the history of the world." They ought, you think, to have been able with their extraordinary advantages to have "gathered into their schools a considerable portion of the more enlightened minds of every race." How do you know they have made no such mark? Are you acquainted with their efforts, successes, and failures? Have you any dock upon which to arraign them? How could your world could your world collect proofs of the doings of men who sedulously kept closed every possible door of approach by which the inquisitive could spy upon them. The prime condition of their success was, that they should never be supervised or obstructed. What they have done they know; all those outside their circle could perceive was results, the causes of which were masked from view. To account for these results, men have in different ages invented theories of the interposition of "Gods," Special providences, fates, and the benign or hostile influences of the stars. There never was a time within or before the so-called historical period when our predecessors were not moulding events and "making history," the facts of which were subsequently and invariably distorted by "historians" to suit contemporary prejudices. Are you quite sure that the visible heroic figures in the successive dramas were not often but their puppets? We never pretended to be able to draw nations in the mass to this or that crisis in spite of the general drift of the world's cosmic relations. The cycles must run their rounds. Periods of mental and moral light and darkness succeed each other, as day does night. The major and minor yugas must be accomplished according to the established order of things. And we, borne along on the mighty tide, can only modify and direct some of its minor currents. If we had the powers of the imaginary Personal God, and the universal and immutable laws were but toys to play with, then indeed might we have created conditions that would have turned this earth into an Arcadia for lofty souls. But having to deal with an immutable Law, being ourselves its creatures, we have had to do what we could and rest thankful. There have been times when "a considerable portion of enlightened minds" were taught in our schools. Such times there were in India, Persia, Egypt, Greece and Rome. But, as I remarked in a letter to Mr. Sinnett, the adept is the efflorescence of his age, and comparatively few ever appear in a single century. Earth is the battle ground of moral no less than of physical forces; and the boisterousness of animal passions under the stimulus of the rude energies of the lower group of etheric agents, always tends to quench spirituality. What else could one expect of men so nearly related to the lower kingdom from which they evolved? True also, our numbers are just now diminishing but his is because, as I have said, we are of the human race, subject to its cyclic impulse and powerless to turn that back upon itself. Can you turn the Gunga or the Brahmaputra back to its sources; can you even dam it so that its piled up waters will not overflow the banks? No, but you may draw the stream partly into canals and utilize its hydraulic power for the good of mankind. So we, who can not stop the world from going in its destined direction, are yet able to divert some part of its energy into useful channels. Think of us as demi-gods and my explanation will not satisfy you; view as simple men -- perhaps a little wiser as the result of special study -- and it ought to answer your objection. "What good," say you, "is to be attained for my fellows and myself (the two are inseparable) by these occult sciences?" When the natives see that an interest is taken by the English and even by some high officials in India in their ancestral science and philosophies, they will themselves take openly to their study. And when they come to realise that the old "divine" phenomena were not *miracles,* but scientific effects, *superstition* will abate. Thus the greatest evil that now oppresses and retards the revival of Indian civilisation will in time disappear. The present tendency of education is to make them materialistic and root out spirituality. With a proper understanding of what their ancestors meant by their writings and teachings, education would become a blessing whereas now it is often a curse. At present the non-educated as much as the learned natives regard the English as too prejudiced, because of their Christian religion and modern science, to care to understand them or their traditions. They mutually hate and mistrust each other. This changed attitude toward the older philosophy would influence the native Princes and wealthy men to endow normal schools for the education of pundits; and old MSS. hitherto buried out of the reach of the Europeans would again come to light, and with them the key to much of that which was hidden for ages from the popular understanding; for which your skeptical Sanscritists do not care, which your religious missionaries do not *dare,* to understand. Science would gain much -- humanity every thing. Under the stimulus of the Anglo Indian Theosophial Society, we might in time see another golden age of Sanscrit literature. <> If we look to Ceylon we shall see the most scholarly priests combining under the lead of the Theos. Society in a new exegesis of Buddhistic philosophy and -- at Galle on the 15th of September, a secular Theosophical school for the teaching of Singhalese youth opened, with an attendance of over 300 scholars; an example about to be imitated at three other points in that island. If the T.S. "as at present constituted," has indeed no "real vitality" and yet in its modest way has done so much of practical good, how much greater results might not be anticipated from a body organized upon the better plan you could suggest! The same causes that are materialising the Hindu mind are equally affecting all Western thought. Education enthrones skepticism but imprisons spiritualism. You can do immense good by helping to give the Western nations a secure basis upon which to reconstruct their crumbling faith. What they need is the evidence that Asiatic psychology alone supplies. Give this and you will confer happiness of mind on thousands. The era of blind faith is gone; that of enquiry is here. Enquiry that only unmasks error, without discovering anything upon which the soul can build, will but make iconoclasts. Iconoclasm from its very destructiveness can give nothing, it can only raze. But man can not rest satisfied with bare negation. Agnosticism is but a temporary halt. This is the moment to guide the recurrent impulse which must soon come, and which will push the age toward extreme atheism, or drag it back to extreme sacerdotalism, if it is not led to the primitive and soul-satisfying philosophy of the Aryans. He who observes what is going on today, on the one hand among the Catholics, who are breeding miracles as fast as the white ants do their young, on the ohter, among the free thinkers, who are converting by masses into agnostics -- will see the drift of things. The age is revelling at a debauch of phenomena. The same marvels that the spiritualists quote in opposition to the dogmas of eternal perdition and atonement, the catholics swarm to witness as the strongest proof of their faith in miracles. The skeptics make game of both. All are blind and there is no one to lead them! You and your colleagues may help furnish the materials for a needed universal religious philosophy; one impregnable to scientific assault because itself the finality of absolute science; and, a religion, that is indeed worthy of the name, since it includes the relations of man physical to man psychical, and of the two to all that is above and below them. Is not this worth a slight sacrifice? And if after reflection you should decide to enter this new carer, let it be known that your Society is no miracle-mongering or banqueting club, nor specially given to hte study of phenomenalism. Its chief aim is to extirpate current superstitions and skepticism, and, from long sealed ancient fountains to draw the proof that man may shape his own future destiny, and know for a certainty that he can live hereafter, if he only wills; and that all "phenomena" are but manifestations of natural law, to try to comprehend which is the duty of every intelligent being. <> Sincerely your friend From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:12:53 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Kabbalah Part 2 But I'll use any avenue I find useful to acquire Theosophia. It inlcudes such things as what Serge King calls grokking, which I can' t do nearly well enough, because I haven't been practicing, but what you do is you think/imagine yourself into something else with Love (be it flower or thunderstorm) & try to find out what makes it tick, & what qualitites it has that could come in handy to copy. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:36:06 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: from the Zohar I found a poem in my Zohar that has to do with "Exodus", hence with Easter & Passover. I thought you mighty like it. So here it is. Manna & Wisdom "YHVH said to Moses ' I am about to rain for you bread from heaven!'... Moses said to Aron 'Say to the whole assemblage of the Children of Israel: 'Approach YHWH, for He has heard your grumbing.' as Aron spoke to the whole assemblage of the Children of Israel, they turned to face the desert, for there, the Presence of YHWH had apppeard in the cloud... That evening, the quail rose and covered the camp. The fall of dew rose, and there, on the face of the desert, a fine coating, as fine as frost on the ground. The Children of Israel saw. They said to one another 'What is it?' for they did not know what it was. Moses said to them 'It is the bread that YHWH has given you to eat.' (Exodus 16:4,9-10,13-15)" "Come and see Every single day, dew trickles down frin the Holy Ancient One to the Impatient One. and the Orchard of Holy Apple Trees is blessed. Some of the dew flows to those below: holy angels are nourished by it, each according to his diet, as it is written: 'A human ate angel bread' (psalms 78:25) Israel ate of that food in the desert. Rabbi Shim'on said 'some people are nourished by it even now! 'Who are they? The Comrades, who engage Torah day and night. Do you think they are nourished by that very food? No, by something like that very food, two balancing one. "Come and see: When Israel entered and joined themselves to the Holy King by uncovering the holy marking, they were pure enough to eat another kind of bread, higher than the first. At first, when Isreal went out of Egypt they went into the bread called Mazzah. Now they were purer; they went in to eat higher bread from a high sphere. as it is written: '*I am about to rain down for you bread from heaven.' literally from Heaven! It was then that Israel discovered the taste of this sphere. "Comrades engaging Torah are nourished from, an even higher sphere. Which is that? That which is writen: "WIsdom gives life to those who have it' (Ecclesiastes 7:12) a very high sphere. "Rabbi El'azar said to him 'If so, why are they weaker than other human beings? Other human beings are stronger and more powerful; the Comrades should be the stronger ones.' He said to him, 'A good question! Come and see: All humam food comes from above. The food that comes from heaven and earth is for the whole world. It is food for all; it is coarse and dense. The food that comes from higher above is finer food, coming from the sphere where Judgement is found. This is the food that Isreal ate when they went out of Egypt. "The food found by Israel that time in the desert, from the higher sphere call Heaven- it is an even finer food, entering deepest of all into the soul, detached from the body, called 'angel bread'. "The highest food of all is the food of the Comrades, those who engage in Torah. For they eat foord of the spirit and the soul-breath; they eat no food for the body at all. Rather. from a high spehere, pecious beyond all: Wisdom. "That is why a Comrade's body is weaker than a normal body: they do not eat food for the body at all. They eat food for the spirit and the soul-breath So their food is finest of the fine, finest of all. Happy is their portion! As it is written: 'Wisdom gives life to those who have it.' Happy is the body that can nourish itself on food of the soul! Rabbi El'azar said to him,'Certainly that is true. But how can such food be found now? He answered 'Certainly a good question! Come and see: This is the clarity of the words..... The foods of the Comrades engaging Torah is most precious of all. This food flows from Wisdom on high, and those who engage Torah enter the source of her roots; so their food flows down from that high and holy sphere. "Rabbi El'azar came and kissed his hands. He said,'Happy is my portion! I understand these words! Happy is the portion of the righteous! Engaging Torah day and night entitles them to this world and the world that is coming, as it is written 'That is your life and the expanse of your days.'" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 00:32:10 GMT From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: LCC et al... > This is to Ann E. Bermingham: > > AEB> On the LCC: > > AEB> The early missals were Old Catholic until Leadbeater and > AEB> Wedgewood could write a new one. If anyone has ever read > AEB> the liturgy, they would no doubt recognize of lot of > AEB> Theosophy between the lines. This a reply to a posting I have not seen - it looks as though I am missing a whole day's material, although some of my own recent postings have come to me. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 10:22:36 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: MLC 4 & a half > ************************ > > Amritsur Nov. 1st [1880] > > Dear Sir, > > Availing of the first moments of leisure to formally answer your > letter of the 17th ultimo, I will now report the result of my > conference with our chiefs upon the proposition therein contained; > trying at the same time to answer all your questions. > > I am first to thank you on behalf of the whole section of our > fraternity that is especially interested in the welfare of India > for an offer of help whose importance and sincerity no one can > doubt. Tracing our lineage through the vicissitudes of Indian > civilization to a remote past, we have a love for our motherland so > deep and passionate, that it has survived even the broadening and > cosmopolitanizing (pardon me if this is not an English word) effect > of our studies in the hidden laws of nature. And so I and every > other Indian patriot feel the strongest gratitude for every kind > word or deed that is given in her behalf. It is striking that from the very first letter, KH's focus in communicating with Hume is quite different from that in his Sinnett letters. Hume was indeed to carry out initiatives that to this day earn him the strongest gratitude of Indian patriots. Sinnett, on the other hand, as (do I imagine this?) hinted at by KH, remained until his death an unregenerate racist ethnocentrist snob. > of intuitively comprehending the other, for a man can only think in > his worn grooves, and unless he has the courage to fill up these > and make new ones for himself he must perforce travel on the old > lines. Allow me a few instances. True now as ever. But Hume seems to have filled in his grooves and made new ones (although not to the liking of HPB or KH) far better than Sinnett. > fates, and the benign or hostile influences of the stars. There > never was a time within or before the so-called historical period > when our predecessors were not moulding events and "making > history," the facts of which were subsequently and invariably > distorted by "historians" to suit contemporary prejudices. Are you > quite sure that the visible heroic figures in the successive dramas > were not often but their puppets? We never pretended to be able to > draw nations in the mass to this or that crisis in spite of the > general drift of the world's cosmic relations. The cycles must run > their rounds. Periods of mental and moral light and darkness > succeed each other, as day does night. The major and minor yugas > must be accomplished according to the established order of things. > And we, borne along on the mighty tide, can only modify and direct > some of its minor currents... > Think of us as demi-gods and my explanation > will not satisfy you; view as simple men -- perhaps a little wiser > as the result of special study -- and it ought to answer your > objection. These passages go to the heart of what I have called "the myth of the Great White Lodge." On one hand, KH is saying that adepts of various traditions have been intricately involved in many great historical events and changes. From this nucleus has grown a myth that in its most extreme form (E.C. Prophet??) portrays the world as being controlled by a superhuman hierarchy of Masters. Theosophy has been touched by this, too. But while KH affirms the presence and influence of adepts throughout history, he insists that they are not demi-gods, but SIMPLE MEN-- PERHAPS A LITTLE WISER AS THE RESULT OF SPECIAL STUDY. Why not take him at his word-- even to the "perhaps"-- rather than take this as false modesty? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 07:07:06 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Theosophia guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: > In message theos-l@vnet.net writes: > >> The only "special power" I want is wisdom. It's the only one >> that's any use, IMHO, >> >> ASTREA > > Amen. Theosophia - "Divine Wisdom." > > If, in your travels, you get to see the Church of Hagia Sophia in > Istanbul (now a mosque) look up in the dome at the Lady Herself. > You can get a large poster of this, which when the scale used in > The Ladder [Keys, pt. 3] is used, coincides exactly with the > parts that matter ... > Very interesting. We probably won't go to Turkey this time, but I intend to do so at some stage, and would no doubt visit this Church. A. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 16:31:07 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Subject: The Value of Theosophy To friends and fellow students (by Eldon Tucker): I'm 10 days behind in my theos-l reading, and further behind in my comments. It's easy, upon missing a few days, to fall behind! Following are a few stray comments. JRC: I would not rank HPB as important because of her public status, because of her obvious influence upon society and the lives of people. In the realm of the spiritual, greatness is measured in terms of trueness to one's inner calling, in terms of one's genuine attempt to express in the world the otherwise inexpressible. The Masters, working behind the scenes, may have more influence upon society than any public figure, HPB included, but that influence, also, is not a measure of their personal greatness. A flower, fighting its way to a life of beauty, is as grand as any lofty god, on its high plane! You mention that you don't really care if HPB wrote "The Mahatma Letters", or if she made up the Masters. That's fine. We're all free to accept whatever we may from the Teachings, and leave for later what we don't benefit from. I'd say, though, that for some of us, there may come a time when something special is seen in the Teachings, and their reality becomes apparent. In matters of the spiritual, there are experiences or states of awareness that are difficult to explain, in words, to others not having the same experiences. When we meet other people with differing views, and their views are based upon experiences they say or imply that they've had, how do we respond? We can keep an open mind and agree with them that "Yes, that is what you've experienced." We may have our own interpretation of what that experience consisted of, and of the accuracy of their ideas about it. It takes a special sense of intuition to tell when others' experiences are valid, or delusional, and we can't always be right. With regards to the theosophical Teachings, I'd say that the study of the core concepts can lead to a breakthrough, where we can go beyond the original words and have new insights. There is something real and valuable in them, something special not found in any arbitrary book on New Age philosophy. How can I prove this? I can't. It is proven by personal experience, and my personal proofs are not authoritative to anyone else (unless I were to set myself up as a Guru, which I'm certainly not in a position to do!). Dr. Bain: In "The Mahatma Letters", the writings of Purucker, and probably those of HPB, there is mention of "the opposition". I'd not give it a capital "o", because that would dignify it. We read of the Left-Hand Path, Dark Initiates, Mamo- Chohans, etc. Purucker, for instance, mentions that whenever the Lodge sends out a Messenger, to work publicly for the betterment of humanity, there's a dark counterpart sent out by the other side. A while back, a lengthy discussion of the nature of the "Dark Brotherhood" appeared on `theos-l'. I'm not sure that I want to reopen that thread of discussion, but I would like to make a comment that there is both a light side and a dark side to life, and that the dark side has its place in the metaphysical scheme of things too. Daniel: The most-frequent argument I hear made regarding the need to study history is that "history repeats itself." This implies that a knowledge of human nature, and history, allows us to observe what is happening in the present, and to have a better understanding of how things will go, unless we take the necessary corrective action. History is, in a sense, an extra-personal "memory". It allows us to validate our thoughts about things with external reality. And we do need reality checks against our beliefs. Any beliefs not grounded in external life, and in personal experience, lead to wasted energy, producing more time in devachanic (and kamalokic) dreams in the afterlife. There are many false claims to spiritual authority. You're correct in wanting to keep one foot on the ground when you reach for the stars in your studies. But I would say that that "ground" consists of the core concepts of Theosophy, the central, key ideas upon which the foundation of the Philosophy is built. We do not find that "ground" in the personal authority of a person, or in the literal words on a printed page. We become rooted when a certain inner connection is made, where we come in firm contact with the theosophical thought stream (a living connection with Mahat). The firm anchor that we seek comes through a direction perception of Truth, from which we build our own mental models, using words that we are familiar with. A study of the core concepts of Theosophy puts us in a receptive state of contemplation, in which, we may have that perception. And the words and mental models we are provided with are highly useful in giving an initial expression to what we see. We could use an appeal to authority to silence the opinions of others whom don't have this connectedness. But why? They are brought no closer to the Truth by being silenced. And we all feel a strong attraction to genuine Sources of the Wisdom Tradition when we are ready to know more. There is a saying that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Do we need to do battle with what we see as false teachers? I'd say "no". Jerry Schueler: You mention that Theosophy consists of a belief in Universal Brotherhood, and the rest is mental fluff. I think that you recognize that there's a lot of wisdom to the Teachings, and share a common appreciation of the goldmine of understanding to be found in them. I'd put your statement differently. I'd say: "The highest ethic is the practice of Universal Brotherhood." This is really a restatement of the Golden Rule, to treat others as you'd want to be treated, but even goes further. We do not see others as different from ourselves, and treat them with equal respect. Rather, we give up the perception of them as apart from ourselves, so there is just "me" -- or "us" singular -- and we value all life equally, as being ourselves. There are different kinds of truth. Our ideas provide us with a model of life. Consider the saying: "The map is not the territory." We often confuse our ideas about things with the real, living experience of them. It is more difficult with the theosophical Teachings than in ordinary studies, because we have maps of unknown terrain, of areas of life completely beyond our experience and perhaps our ability to understand! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:40:35 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: quote from Stephen Hawking "Although science may solve the problem of how the universe began, it cannot answer the question: Why does the universe bother to exist? I don't know the answer to that." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 05 Apr 95 18:08:05 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: The Value of Theosophy Eldon writes: >Purucker, for instance, mentions that whenever >the Lodge sends out a Messenger, to work publicly for the >betterment of humanity, there's a dark counterpart sent out >by the other side. A while back, a lengthy discussion of the >nature of the "Dark Brotherhood" appeared on `theos-l'. I'm >not sure that I want to reopen that thread of discussion, >but I would like to make a comment that there is both a >light side and a dark side to life, and that the dark side >has its place in the metaphysical scheme of things too. Ann responds: Thank you for also answering my query on the "opposition", as well as Dr. Bain's. I found this particularly interesting because in my current writing, I had to create a "bad guy". At first, I found it strange to get my thinking to match his twisted mind set, but over time I began to enjoy making him make mischief. He is the symbol of chaos which is a catalyst for the other character's growth. I set up natal charts for all my major characters and that experience made me wonder how the Great Author keeps track of it all. He must have help. His storyline is so complicated. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 05 Apr 95 18:17:32 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Hawking quote Liesel quotes Hawking: >"Although science may solve the problem of how the universe began, it cannot answer the question: Why does the universe bother to exist? I don't know the answer to that." Ann responds: I heard a gnostic student say that God wanted to know everything, but realized he couldn't do it by himself. So he divided himself up into all the aspects of creation. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 01:03:35 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Grokking > But I'll use any avenue I find useful to acquire Theosophia. It > inlcudes such things as what Serge King calls grokking, which I > can' t do nearly well enough, because I haven't been practicing, > but what you do is you think/imagine yourself into something else > with Love (be it flower or thunderstorm) & try to find out what > makes it tick, & what qualitites it has that could come in handy > to copy. > > Liesel What I have tried (and still do from time to time) is to attempt to share the _being_ of the "other" - flower or thunderstorm. When successful, the only way to describe the experience is that for a brief time I AM THAT (flower, etc.) and IT IS I. It's a real WOW, GULP, OH OH OH experience. One time when I was particularly 'psychic' (Neptune transit - 2 years of it) my sense of being and awareness was briefly transferred to a fly that had settled briefly on my coat. I saw "me" through the fly's eyes. I was _enormous_ and yes, just like the constructed pics of how science imagines flies see us! I have occasionally "been" other creatures in this way. I think the best way to try to describe actually doing this, is to attempt to extend one's awareness directly _into_ the "other" [but in a sharing, not an invasive manner]. Difficult to describe, but maybe the 'flavor' of it may come through. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:01:55 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Hawking quote > Liesel quotes Hawking: >"Although science may solve the problem > of how the universe began, it cannot answer the question: Why > does the universe bother to exist? I don't know the answer to > that." Ann responds: I heard a gnostic student say that God wanted to know everything, but realized he couldn't do it by himself. So he divided himself up into all the aspects of creation. Lewis's comment: I remember reading Annie Besant's response to this question years ago. It was her opinion that it was an act of supreme love. Imagine for a moment a being who had evolved to a point of sublime understanding of existence and then wants to share it with others. I see the marriage and procreation of children as a microcosm of this idea. One becomes an individual, separating from parents, and then wants to share their individuality with another. After marriage the couple's love for each other seeks to share this love with their children. Just as parents hope their children will grow in to fully conscious, loving beings who will someday do the same, so does the Solor Logos of our planetary system. There is book by Annie Besant called The Doctrine of the Heart, which I believe is where I got these ideas. Lewis llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 15:32:37 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Subject: More Comments Lewis L: In comparing `theos-l' to a study class, you ask the question "How do we draw out the quiet people?" I would suggest that what we have is the opposite situation. The impersonal setting of an email discussion list allows people to be more aggressive than they would tend to be in person. Consider what happens to a shy, quiet person behind the wheel of a car on the freeway: pent up aggression and anger, hidden under the surface shyness, emerges, and we have a demon on wheels! I would suggest that we may have seen this happen to us, as we become new participants on `theos-l', until we adapt to the new setting. You mention that it would be confusing to someone to study under multiple teachers, when those teachers hold conflicting views. I would agree, but wonder if people new to Theosophy experience this on our list? I would suspect that each of us has his favorite authors or books to study, and picks and chooses things of personal value out of the varied assortment of postings we find. Nicholas: Regarding "The Elder Brother," I believe that it was dropped by the original publisher, but the remaining stock was purchased by Point Loma Publications, which continues to sell it. Jerry S: Regarding "auric filters," I would put things differently. We have sense perception corresponding to each of our seven principles, on each plane on which we are active. That perception is based upon those beings or places before us, or with which we are actively engaged in some activity. With the physical plane, every being with a form gives off sensory output. When we interact with others physically, we take that in as sensory input. The term "filter" implies keeping out all but what you perceive. A better term might be "directed perception", which implies not keeping out anything, but rather actively taking in what you have entered into active relationship with, in a dynamic sense, at the current moment of time. It's like the question: "Is the cup half empty, or is it half full?" I would say "Half full", and say that "fullness" is a direct, conscious, living link with others (e.g., the buddhic principle). Keith: When you mention the seven rays, you bring up a controversial tenant of Theosophy. The idea, as I see it, originated with Subba Row, and was picked up and expanded by E. Wood, CWL, and Alice Bailey. It is not part of the original teachings of HPB, and considered incorrect by the various theosophical groups, except for the pro-CWL Adyar folk. There are two situations where we might consider there being seven rays. First, when we talk of a Logos breaking into seven minor Logoi, each a unique child of the parent. The second is when we consider the "seven humanities" spoken of in "The Secret Doctrine." Each of us belongs to one of these humanities, and what distinguishes them is that each one finds one of the Seven Sacred Planets as its home. How are we connected with our "home"? This has to do with the Outer Rounds. (See the writings of Purucker, or "The Divine Plan" by Geoffrey Barborka for more information on the Outer Rounds.) How do these differences show up in us? They do not. At least, I would say, the differences would not be noticeable in us in any way that we, as ordinary people, could detect. The differences lie in a deeper part of ourselves that the human Ego, which we know ourselves as, and are not apparent from its vantage point. When we try to categorize people into one ray or another, and try to associate rays with certain personal characteristics and roles in life, I would say we are mistaken. We are not, as humans, separated out by rays, working under the rulership or guidance of some Mahatma or Chohan ruling over our ray. We are all in the same boat, and have complete freedom to grow and become anything that we will, according to our innate characteristics, our Swabhava. The seven rays only deal with our long-term destiny, going beyond anything that we currently experience. I would avoid using the term "seven rays" myself, because it can be misleading, because of the connotations that come with it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 9:05:02 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Grokking According to Dr. A.M.Bain: Quoting Liesel-- > > things as what Serge King calls grokking, which I can' t do > > nearly well enough, because I haven't been practicing, but what > > you do is you think/imagine yourself into something else with > > Love (be it flower or thunderstorm) & try to find out what makes > > it tick, & what qualitites it has that could come in handy to > > copy. Alan comments-- (snip) > > I think the best way to try to describe actually doing this, is > to attempt to extend one's awareness directly _into_ the "other" > [but in a sharing, not an invasive manner]. Difficult to > describe, but maybe the 'flavor' of it may come through. Isn't this, in a subliminal way, the `flavor' of what makes any of us animal lovers? I can't say I've ever felt FULLY merged or identified, but there have been many transcendent moments in which a bird, or beaver, or guinea pig, etc. has temporarily become a focus of awareness in this sharing kind of way. At another level, it may be part of what fascinates those who are compelled to travel in foreign countries. For me, there's nothing comparable to the sense of being absorbed in Frenchness, or Mexicanness, etc., or rather nothing that satisfies that particular itch for losing boundaries, in quite the same way. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 11:04:22 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Subject: Regarding the Religious Regarding the Religious -- by Eldon Tucker. Osmar: It's good to see that you're still around. We haven't seen you in a while on `theos-l'. The relation of Theosophy to the religious side of life is complex. There are many issues. First, we can say that Theosophy is a religious philosophy, there is a religious element to it. The term `religion' means to link or bind back to the source, and could be compared to `yoga', with a similar meaning. With the religious, we have genuineness. We are true to ourselves. The deeply-felt, highly-important thoughts and feelings that we have are respected and treated with honor in our lives. There is an awareness of our higher natures, a respect of what we experience deep within our hearts, and a natural inclination to express it in the world. Theosophy is not "non-religious", but cannot be fully appreciated and understood unless there is a deep religious sense involved in its study, and in its application in our lives. When we go deep into the heart of the universe, in our studies, we sense with awe the majesty of life, and are uplifted and ennobled. If a study is only approached with a purely-intellectual manner, the student will remain blind to the true face of the Wisdom Religion. Although there is a strong religious sense to the studies, we cannot draw analogies to modern-day churches. It is assumed with many Christian churches that we cannot be religious without subscribing to a predefined package of beliefs. The beliefs are presented as dogmas, to be accepted as absolute truths, with even the literal wording being taken as beyond question. The Bible, for instance, may be presented, word for word, as unerring truth. Many churches have a strong peer pressure on members to conform, which tends to stifle original thought. This is fine for moral laggards, needing help to keep up with the rest of us; it is not good for those of us whom would be moral and spiritual pioneers, wanting to explore the unknown. With Theosophy, we have a glimpse of the Mystery Teachings, with a treasury of ideas to contemplate, some acting like Zen Koans, leading to deep insights into life. We quickly pass beyond the limited philosophy and cosmology taught the masses. Compare, for instance, the idea of a personal God to the far grander, but subtler, teaching of the Boundless All! There is nothing wrong in experiencing the religious in group activities, as well as privately, alone and away from the world. We have Solstice Celebrations, where Theosophists might celebrate in a joyful, religious sense the times of the Great Initiations. This is not any different, in principle, from a group of people celebrating Christian mass, or doing zazen in a led meditation. With a practice of Theosophy, we learn to practice self- conscious, dynamic ethics, rather than blindly obey the commandments of an organized religion. We study deep doctrines that go beyond the power of words to express, rather than tightly adhere to rigidly defined dogmas. We follow a path of self-responsibility, we achieve our liberation through self-devised efforts, rather than seeking external salvation. We act responsibility with a full awareness of the law of Karma, rather than acting irresponsibility then depending on the forgiveness of some external God to escape the consequences of our actions. Most important of all, we look for the divine and feel its presence throughout life. Our sacred grounds are not limited to plots of land on which churches reside; our sacred grounds embrace all of life, from horizon to horizon, taking in both the dark and light sides of life. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:49:20 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Grokking I feel kind of vulnerable sharing this, fear of the flake factor, but a few months ago I had an experience that may fit into the Grokking posts. I was compulsively trying to get my computer to work and make the transition between IBM Tandy to Mac. It was very late in the evening 2:00 am. I all of a sudden started feeling claustophobic and even frightened. The Mac wasn't frightening and I hadn't been reading or watching Stephen King or Lovecraft. I felt I was in a small damp room and that I was frightened. In my minds eye I saw things elongated and everything seemed low to the ground. Then the image of a cat in a confined room came up and I imagined myself going and letting the cat out. The only problem was I couldn't differentiate between the cat's consciousness and my own. Who was liberating who, was I the liberator or the liberatee? It was weird and I thought I had better not work so hard anymore. I went to the basement washroom and while going down the stairs the inner scene worked its way into my reality. The cat actually was stuck in a storage room I let it out with the feeling of de je vous. I hope this sharing doesn't seriously effect my status on Theos-l. But I thought it relevant. Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:08:46 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: TO Nicholas Weeks, RE: MLC4 &1/2 Dear Nicholas, Thank you for copying that letter from KH to Hume into the computer. It sure has a lot of information in it. I appreciated reading it. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:13:46 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Hawking quote Dear Ann, I think that's a wonderful answer. You should send it to Steven Hawking; I think he'd like it. Liesel. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:17:37 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking Alan, What you describe, is exactly what Serge calls "grokking". He says about 5% of you should stay yourself. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:02:58 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking Maybe the cat had a way of calling you for help? Whose cat was it anyway? Was it yours? Are you very attached to that cat? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 15:26:12 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re Art's Cat Glad you shared your "flaky" feline experience, Art. A couple of thoughts, for what they're worth. So late at night you may have been approaching a hypnogogic state between sleep and waking, in which psi phenomena seem to come more readily. I have noticed, upon awaking in the wee hours, that the "shabd" or "voice of the silence" is much more audible then, perhaps because the psychic atmosphere is less turbulent. Second thought is that this is distinct from what we were discussing because you were a receiver of feelings or a message that was being deliberately (if not consciously) sent TO YOU. Whereas what Liesel, Alan and I were talking about was projecting oneself into a consciousness that might not be aware it was happening. Your experience is remarkable, though, for HOW you received the "rescue me" message from the cat, which was so vividly empathic, with visual as well as emotional telepathy. I appreciate your sharing it, and as an avid astrologer don't have room to dismiss anything as flaky. Well, almost anything :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:31:26 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Re Art's Cat > Second > thought is that this is distinct from what we were discussing > because you were a receiver of feelings or a message that was > being deliberately (if not consciously) sent TO YOU. Whereas > what Liesel, Alan and I were talking about was projecting > oneself into a consciousness that might not be aware it was > happening. Thanks for the clarification. In counselling this sometimes seems to take place at least in some seed form. One time I was counselling a man who was going though a lot of disassociative anxiety rooted in his relationship with his dad. I lost my boundaries and for a whole evening felt like I was thinking in a structure I was totally unfamiliar with. I started thinking in patterns and ways I never have before. It was scattered in a way unfamiliar to me. I called a friend over and he helped me back into myself again. Because it was undisciplined and rather fool hardy for me to introject the person's psyche at such a deep level I vowed not to try to do that again. Your experience is remarkable, though, for HOW you > received the "rescue me" message from the cat, which was so > vividly empathic, with visual as well as emotional telepathy. > I appreciate your sharing it, and as an avid > astrologer don't have room to dismiss anything as flaky. Well, > almost anything :) By the way, Neptune that wonderful planet of dissolution was going through my ninth house exactly as this occurred. Meow Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:56:56 -0800 From: ddd@hss.caltech.edu (Doreen Domb) Subject: EMPATHIC INTUITION Art, nothing flakey about it. What a neat experience!! To me, no question that you not only intuited the cat's situation, but that you somehow became a part of it. I mean to say that you merged with the cat's consciousness and felt as the cat felt. You and the cat were one in some sense. I don't know how else to describe it. Do you have a particularly very deep bond with this cat? Thank you for sharing. Your experience almost makes me feel envious. You have a good heart.......................... - Doreen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 07 Apr 95 16:29:51 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: RE: Seven Rays/More Commentary Eldon> When you mention the seven rays, you bring up a > controversial tenant of Theosophy. The idea, as I see it, > originated with Subba Row, and was picked up and expanded by > E. Wood, CWL, and Alice Bailey. It is not part of the > original teachings of HPB, and considered incorrect by the > various theosophical groups, except for the pro-CWL Adyar > folk. > When we try to categorize people into one ray or another, > and try to associate rays with certain personal > characteristics and roles in life, I would say we are > mistaken. Ann responds: In working with the theory of Esoteric Astrology, one can look at the planets, the signs they are in and determine what ray or ray is dominant in a chart. Yes, this does come from Alice Bailey (pause for the hisses). Other than an opportunity to address the issue of conflicting opinions, my only reason for mentioning it is that I have had an esoteric chart done and used the method for other charts. As far as my pea brain can tell, it WORKS. Over the past month of reading Theos-l, I have had the experience of seeing my heroes and heroines (Besant, CWL, Bailey and others) being sliced up and prepared for shikabob. (Yeow! Everything I knew was wrong!) Even HPB and the Masters couldn't escape a brush with the barbecue. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I used to have this misty image of the Society. It was full of dignified, stuffy people. Thank you for letting me find the reality. Only something as amazing as The Society could stand the conflict of so many people coming from so many paths, religions and viewpoints, without totally dissolving. It's managed to stay together and work for the good of humanity, despite the differences. I think that is a major miracle. By the way, it's great to see Theos-l back in business. It been deader than a doornail at my end for the past week. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:04:25 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Grokking > Maybe the cat had a way of calling you for help? Whose cat was it > anyway? Was it yours? Are you very attached to that cat? Liesel, I never thought of it from the cats point of view. This cat is called Couscous, we were vegetarian when we got it. Couscous had physical problems and Bev wanted to put it down. Out of compassion. I was uncertain about doing that. I guess I was thinking that I wouldn't want to be put down for a minor reason. So hours from the appointment, death row from Couscous' point of view, I cancelled the appointment and said I just couldn't do it. Couscous has since recovered and is a rover in the neighbourhood only getting ill occassionally. It has a particular bond to me - it seems wierd does it know I saved its ass on that day? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 19:57:56 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Art's Cat Art, Just let me repeat what Serge taught us. He's also a clinical psychologist. He said when you project yourself into another entity stay 5% yourself. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 20:01:14 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking I think Couscuous senses something positive & life saving in you, not quite as definite as that you saved its life. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 18:15:41 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Grokking Art: Thanks for sharing your grokking experience. My view is that you were very fortunate - as was the cat! Your standing on theos-l is surely as high as anyone else's! Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 20:27:22 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: poor Tibet > Date: Fri Apr 7 16:00:06 1995 > From: wtn-editors@utcc.utoronto.ca > Subject: World Tibet Network News 95/04/07 21:00 GMT World Tibet Network News Published by: The Canada-Tibet Committee Editorial Board: Brian Given Nima Dorjee Conrad Richter Tseten Samdup Submissions to: wtn-l@vm1.mcgill.ca or fax to: +44-71-722-0362 (U.K.) Subscriptions to: listserv@vm1.mcgill.ca - to join, message should be: SUB WTN-L [your name] - to cancel, message should be: SIGNOFF WTN-L Issue ID: 95/04/07 21:00 GMT Compiled by Thubten (Sam) Samdup Chinese Step Up Attack on Dalai Lama From: Tibet Information Network LONDON, April 7, 1995 (TIN) The Chinese authorities in Tibet have launched a major campaign attacking the Dalai Lama in person and accusing him of blasphemy, forgery and distorting Buddhism. The campaign, last tried on this scale 20 years ago, has already sparked off a number of rural protests, including four by monks from a major Buddhist sect which had previously avoided political confrontation. Using virtually unprecedented language, official government documents are describing the exile Tibetan leader and his officials as the "head of a serpent" which must be chopped off. The new campaign seeks to discredit the Dalai Lama as a religious figure, unlike previous attacks which only criticised his political activities. "How much trace of a spiritual religious leader is still left in him?" Tibet TV viewers were asked by a TV news reader earlier this week. The TV attack on the Dalai Lama was broadcast on the main evening news on 30th March in an item described as a "TV Forum" entitled "Is Dalai still the spiritual leader of a religion?" The broadcast, an unattributed speech implicitly issued by the authorities, indicated that the anti-Dalai Lama campaign is now to be aimed at ordinary people, and that the campaign will be carried out throughout the Tibet Autonomous Region. Until now the campaign has been targetted at officials and party members, who were asked the same question in a lengthy article published in Tibet Daily, the regional Party newspaper, on 10th March, according to the BBC's Summary of World Broadcasts. The TV broadcast this week gave official party endorsement to the newspaper article, which had been signed by an unknown Chinese named Xuan Wen in order to suggest that it did not at that time represent official policy. Both the TV statement and the newspaper article say that the Dalai Lama has "forged" Buddhist texts, "altered" the teachings and "violated" the principles of Buddhism. Buddhism, the articles insist, advocates detachment from worldly affairs, whereas the Dalai Lama has allegedly told his followers to support Tibetan independence as part of their religious practice. Tibet Daily describes this as "wildly attempting to use godly strength to poison and bewitch the masses". It accuses the "so-called spiritual leader" and "separatist chieftain" of incorporating "Tibet independence" into his sermons. "Such flagrant deceptiveness and demagoguery constitute a blasphemy to Buddhism", says the paper. The Dalai Lama's followers are accused of "demanding" that Tibetans hang the Dalai Lama's portraits in monasteries. Foreign tourists who have visited Tibet say that they are constantly asked by Tibetans for Dalai Lama photographs. Individual attacks by the Chinese on the Tibetan leader have been extremely rare, especially since September 1987, when the Party last criticised him personally after he addressed a group of congressmen in the United States. The brief propaganda drive sparked off a series of street demonstrations in Lhasa which are still continuing. Since then Party propagandists have been careful to criticise the "Dalai Clique" rather than the Dalai Lama himself. A TV broadcast on 11th February referred to "splittist elements headed by the Dalai", a derogatory term indicating that a change in tone was imminent, but such remarks are extremely rare in public statements. - "Administering" and "Adapting" Religion - The current campaign against the Dalai Lama is exceptional because it attacks his spiritual abilities, for which the Chinese have since 1979 allowed people to show respect. A senior Party figure contacted in Tibet confirmed to TIN that such language had not been used since the Cultural Revolution, which finished in 1976. The decision to attack the exile leader personally, which involves considerable risks for the Chinese, was made last July at a major policy conference in Beijing called the Third National Forum on Work in Tibet. According to initial publicity, the Forum, which was attended by all China's top leaders, was dedicated to raising 2.3 bln yuan for investment in the economic development of the Tibet Autonomous Region, but since November it has gradually become clear that its main purpose was to launch an attack on religion in Tibet. In technical terms the Forum decided that the attack should be divided into two aspects: administration of religion and reform of religion. "On the basis of law we should enhance the administrative work in the field of religion, and guide religion to be an appropriate practice according to the socialist system," said deputy secretary Raidi at an internal speech on the Forum in September 1994. The practice of "enhancing administration" was clarified in articles in the Tibet Daily on 25th November 1994 and in great detail in the 10th March article, which announced strict quotas on the number of monks and nuns in each monastery, limits on the construction of any new monasteries or nunneries, and the expulsion of any monks or nuns over the quota or under 18 years of age. The November article, which was extracted from an official handbook on the Third Forum's decisions called "the Golden Bridge to A New Era", had given a vague indication of the second aspect of the religious campaign: "Tibetan Buddhism must self-reform and adapt itself to the socialist system, and this must be taught and guided. They must adapt themselves to suit the developments and stability of Tibet." The current propaganda implements this plan to reform Buddhism, which turns out to mean that under socialism Tibetan Buddhists are allowed to be religious but are not allowed to regard the Dalai Lama as a religious leader. "The main spirit of the Third Forum is to adapt Tibetan Buddhism, to reform it, and to separate the Dalai Lama from Tibetan Buddhism", a Tibetan party member in Tibet told TIN. "It is impossible. It is like trying to say that the Pope is not the head of the Catholic Church," he added. - "To Kill a Serpent, We Must First Chop off its Head" - The instruction to attack the Dalai Lama in person was printed in "Golden Bridge to a New Era", the official handbook of the Third National Forum, published in October 1994. "We must always have a clear view of Dalai and reveal his double-faced true colour as much as possible. The force at the fore of the fight against separatism is the fight against the Dalai clique," says the book. "As we say, to kill a serpent, we must first chop off its head, and if we don't act accordingly we can not succeed completely in this struggle," continues the handbook, leaving it ambiguous whether the threat applies just to the Dalai Lama or to the exile Government as a whole. In his key briefing to the Tibet Party Committee on 5th September 1994 deputy secretary Raidi also called for the head of the serpent to be cut off, but the phrase was omitted from the public text of Raidi's speech, published in Tibet Daily the following day and issued in translation by the BBC's Summary of World Broadcasts on 26th September. - Tibetan Responses - The TV broadcast of the anti-Dalai Lama statements indicates that the campaign will already have been initiated in most government offices, and that government employees will have to attend meetings at which they will be asked to state their attitude to the official statements. Opinions are divided over whether Tibetans, who regard insulting the Dalai Lama as the most offensive form of Chinese polemic, will accept the new campaign. "No-one in Tibet will believe these things but I don't expect anyone to stand up and say they don't agree," said one Tibetan from Lhasa. "Anyone speaking out will be knocking against a rock. Nobody will be foolish enough to give their own opinion. If they do they will be finished," he said. However so far this year there have already been more demonstrations than in any equivalent period for five years, most of them in monasteries and nunneries in rural areas outside Lhasa. The rural incidents, details of which are still nuclear, could be a response to early attempts by party work teams to implement the new rulings. Teams of officials from the Public Security Offices, the Religious Affairs Bureau and local leaders were sent in the beginning of December 1994 to monasteries and nunneries near Lhasa to impose the new restrictions, according to unofficial sources. Similar work teams had been sent out three months earlier to set up the new policies. The December teams are said to have demanded responsibility contracts from the heads of monasteries, as well as from parents and monastery sponsors, guaranteeing that their members would not take part in protests. "After that the monks and nuns were forced to put their fingerprints on a written document which stated that they would not join the splittists, and their photographs were taken," said the Tibetan, who said that in some areas the monks had refused to co-operate. Two protests in December, both by monks from Sang-ngag Khar monastery 25 km east of Lhasa, are known to have been sparked off by demands from visiting work teams. Last May, two months before the new hard-line policy on religion was approved by the Beijing leadership, a Tibetan politician warned the Chinese authorities that a crack-down on religion could be counter- productive. "We shouldn't forget that during the Cultural Revolution, atheism was publicised on a large scale amongst the masses, but got the opposite result," Rongwo Lobsang Dondrup told a session of the Tibet branch of the Political Consultative Conference, according to documents seen by TIN. "Instead of accepting atheism, the aftermath amongst the masses had grave consequences. It is time for us to learn these lessons," he said. - Provoking Sectarian Strife - The official campaign against the Dalai Lama repeats well-used Cultural Revolution propaganda describing him as a feudal serf owner "who must use the skulls of human beings to recite scriptures". But it introduces a new attack: that the Gelugpa school, which the Dalai Lama leads, is not the leading sect in Tibetan Buddhism. The splittists are trying to inflate the status of the Dalai Lama "by arbitrarily describing him, one of the leaders of the Dge-lugs-pa, in turn one of the four main sects of Tibetan Buddhists, as the common leader of all Buddhist sects in Tibet", adds the Tibet Daily. The argument appears to be an attempt to incite factional rivalry between the major Buddhist sects, and follows extensive efforts by the Chinese authorities to elevate the standing of the Karmapa, leader of the Kagyupa school of Tibetan Buddhism. The Karmapa, who lives at Tsurphu monastery 50 km north-west of Lhasa, was officially recognised as an incarnation by the Chinese state in 1991 and has since been lavishly praised by the official Chinese media and government leaders. He was taken to Beijing to be a guest of honour of the Chinese president during the parade marking China's National Day on 1st October 1994. On 21st October officials in Lhasa announced that Tsurphu monastery had won an award for its "outstanding patriotic and law-abiding performance". "The government respects religious affairs and cares much about the Garmaba", Xinhua said on 25th October. Attempts to promote sectarian conflict have previously been confined to academic articles which were not intended for public distribution. "Power should have been in the hands of the Geju [Kagyupa] sect and should have had nothing to do with the Gelu [Gelugpa] sect (Dalai), who were therefore illegally in power in Tibet" during the Republican period, a Tibetan historian wrote in the internal Bulletin of Tibet Communist Party History in 1988. - Protests by Kagyupa Monasteries - The current attempt to promote the Karmapa as an alternate leader to the Dalai Lama has already run into difficulties. When Xinhua, the official Chinese news agency, quoted the Karmapa last year as saying he was a patriotic lama who wanted to unite the motherland, the statement was ridiculed by Tibetans. "The Chinese taught him to say this; he doesn't know what patriotic is and what uniting the motherland means," one Tibetan in Lhasa told TIN, pointing out the farce of citing political statements by the Karmapa, who is only 11 years old. "The Chinese think that the Karmapa will become a Chinese Lama, but the Karmapa will never do that, because he is a Tibetan Lama," they added. The comment has an unexpected veracity, because in the last three months the general view that Kagyupa monks would not join the dissident movement has been shattered, with protests taking place in at least four monasteries with Kagyupa affiliations. Kagyupa dissent emerged, for the first known time in recent years, in early January this year, when a pro-independence protest was staged by monks at the monastery of Yamure, 99 km north east of Lhasa. The protest, reportedly sparked off by officials demanding that photographs of the Dalai Lama be banned, led to a raid on the monastery by over 100 troops. On 28th January eight Tibetans, including three monks from the local Kagyupa monastery, were arrested from Katsel, a village 65 km north-east of Lhasa in Meldrogungkar county, after pro-independence posters were put up or dissident books were found in their rooms. In February seven monks from the monastery of Taglung, 65 km north of Lhasa, were arrested. Taglung, like Yamure, is affiliated to a branch of the Kagyupa school. The monks had travelled to Lhasa to stage their protests in two groups, one group demonstrating on or around 11th February and the second on 15th February. But most surprising is news of protests against the Chinese manipulation of the Karmapa by five monks from the Karmapa's own seat at Tsurphu. In December or January four of the five men fled from the monastery after they were accused of putting up dissident posters, but were arrested in Shigatse as they tried to escape to India; the fifth escaped. The monks are said to have left letters in their rooms accusing the Chinese authorities of taking advantage of the child Karmapa. The letters also said that the anti-Dalai Lama campaign was unacceptable, according to one source. Three of the detainees were senior monks at Tsurphu, including Kyigen, the main chant master of the monastery, as well as another who acted as chant master and one who was the monastery's "ge-yok" or deputy disciplinarian. The five men are said to be held in Toelung county prison. Although much of the pro-independence activity inside Tibet has been led by monks and nuns from Gelugpa institutions, there has been intense dissident activity among monasteries and nunneries of the other sects, such as the Nyingmapa nunnery at Shungseb and the Sakya monastery of Dunbu Choekor in Chideshol. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 9:51:20 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: RE: Seven Rays/More Commentary According to Ann E. Bermingham: > Other than an opportunity to address the issue of conflicting > opinions, my only reason for mentioning it is that I have had an > esoteric chart done and used the method for other charts. As far > as my pea brain can tell, it WORKS. > > Only something as amazing as The Society could stand the conflict > of so many people coming from so many paths, religions and > viewpoints, without totally dissolving. It's managed to stay > together and work for the good of humanity, despite the > differences. I think that is a major miracle. Have you ever examined the miraculously complex and weird natal chart of the TS? The one for Olcott's inaugural address has every planet a) in a fixed sign b) in a T-square or cosmic cross. Irresistible forces meeting immovable objects in every possible direction. The energy both forces us to stay together and to see Theosophy from diametrically opposed positions. It also works as a vortex drawing people in and spewing them out. That doesn't mean the TS is a failure, just because folks come and go; they often leave transformed. The list of ex-FTS in history is, alas, more illustrious than those that stayed. I'd like to know what the ray system would say about that chart! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 08 Apr 95 10:36:01 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Ann Ann< Over the past month of reading Theos-l, I have had the > experience of seeing my heroes and heroines (Besant, CWL, > Bailey and others) being sliced up and prepared for > shikabob. (Yeow! Everything I knew was wrong!) Even HPB > and the Masters couldn't escape a brush with the barbecue.> > > > Somewhere in the back of my mind, I used to have this misty > image of the Society. It was full of dignified, stuffy > people. Thank you for letting me find the reality. You are quite welcome. While Theos-L is not your ordinary TS, I hope you aren't serious about "Everything I knew was wrong!" Who says that you are wrong? As you admit, "it works" and this is usually good enough criteria for most things. We are a motley and outspoken bunch, I'm afraid. But you need a bit of a thick skin to be a theosophist in today's world. And, if you think they pick on you, you should be in my shoes sometimes. My views on magic are a bit much for most of these armchair theosophists :-) but what the heck -- it works for me! Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 18:59:33 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Keys 2a Keys to Kabbalah Part 2b (not 2a!) being uploaded to theos-buds. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 08 Apr 95 15:35:20 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Re: Seven Rays K. Paul Johnson writes: > Have you ever examined the miraculously > complex and weird natal chart of the TS? . . . I'd like to know > what the ray system would say about that chart! Ann responds: What a great idea! Using the info that was in The American Theosophist from last summer, my computer drew up the charts for The Society (11/17/1875, New York, NY) and the American Section (10/30/1886, Cincinnati, OH). As I suspected, The Society has 4th Ray planets in the majority, which is Harmony Through Conflict. In The American Section, the 4th Ray has a slight edge over the 3rd & 7th Ray, but they are almost equal. The 3rd Ray expresses Active Intelligence and the 7th is concerned with ceremonial order, magic and synthesis. If anyone wants to explore this further, pick up a copy of "Soul-Centered Astrology", by Alan Oken, published by Bantam Books. Jerry S. writes > I hope you aren't serious about > "Everything I knew was wrong!" . . . But you > need a bit of a thick skin to be a theosophist in > today's world. Ann responds: Sorry, Jerry. I forgot my :-) , when I said that. That line refers to a comedy album by the Firesign Theater, titled "Everything You Know is Wrong!", which came out in 1975. It lampoons Uri Geller, UFOs, Evel Kneivel and the New Age movement. I bought the CD for my husband, but it cost $25. Rather than thick skin, I think mine is covered with water, which causes comments to just flow off. That's because there's so much Pisces in my chart. I think it's rather fascinating The Society has survived so much conflict without having some kind of "holy war". They have right to be proud of it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 19:02:07 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Keys 2a THE KEYS TO KABBALAH - PART TWO (THE 22 TAROT CARDS) CARDS 0 to 11 THE 21 STAGES OF THE WAY "The Fool" This is not properly the first stage in the journey towards Self- awareness. Rather is it a necessary `pre-stage' whereby a certain amount of preparation has already been done. As it is an absolute necessity that this preparation is made, a great deal of importance is attached to it. This takes place very much in the everyday material world, as does most of the work in Step 1, and is concerned with the body of things as it appears to unawakened awareness. It is only the body, not the soul, nor the spirit, except by reflection, and body may also be symbolised by our own planet, the Earth itself. The body is a shell, a container - in this case for the soul and Spirit which motivates it. And the world of shells or husks is called, in Kabbalah, Klippoth. It has nothing to do with any kinds of demon, except perhaps the `demons' we are ourselves. Here we may be compared with the figure on the card, from the point of view of the development of awareness. We are governed by what are basically bodily considerations, though we may not recognise them as such, attributing our desires to outside influences and other people. As human beings, we have a very individual consciousness, with the potential for choosing what we accept and what we reject. Even at this early stage, a higher consciousness is at work in us, seeking to develop, to bring us closer to Self-realisation. This causes us in different ways, depending upon what sort of persons we are, to attempt to change our direction and to make the fullest use of free-will. At this stage, however, we do not know enough to do this properly. In fact we do not usually know that we do not know, often supposing that we know a great deal! We must learn that what appears to be decision based upon experience may in fact be no more than conditioned reflex, built- in reactions to events and circumstances, having little to do with choice on our part at all. The more our awareness struggles to develop however, the greater the likelihood of our following the path of the figure on the card. The dog at our heels represents the law which governs the direction of things, and the body of things. It is attempting to tell us to wake up and look where we are going. As generally we do not realise that we are (in relative terms) asleep, we take the unavoidable step over the cliff, and find that our previous values no longer apply; that we have fallen into a strange land that we had no idea existed. This is the Awakening - with a bump, always, and often painful. Before the first step proper may be taken, we must see that we have been living our lives as if asleep, treating dreams as reality. The awareness of life that is possible, compared to what sometimes passes for it, is like the difference between sleep and waking. To begin to know ourselves, we need to see how much we have been spending our lives in a sequence of action and reaction in response to outside stimulation. To see this, all that is necessary is a little honest observation of our own behaviour. The first thing is to `Wake up" if only for a moment now and then. The key to this is observation, coupled with discrimination - the virtue of the Malkuth. Observation of action-reaction in the events of our daily lives; observation of the appearance of things. To do this, it will help if we remind ourselves as fre- quently as is practical, to stop. That is, whenever we remember, to deliberately interrupt the flow of action-reaction in which we are engaged, to stop and observe what is. Common sense should tell us when not to practice this exercise. We may be surprised at what we discover. On the scale of the Ladder, this position is directly related to Path 28. The text for this path states: "The Active Intelligence. Thence is created the spirit of every creature of the supreme orb, and the activity, the motion to which they are subject." By "creature" is here understood the animal body, which has an intelligence of its own, not the soul or spirit who inhabits it (you or I, for example). A major realisation for us at this stage is to recognise that we are not our bodies, but something else. The quest for that something else now becomes our immediate concern. STEP ONE Centred on Yesod The first three steps are steps of personality, as are Stages one to ten. The remaining steps are steps of Self and Self-awareness. The first stages in Step One are taken once the Awakening has begun. These are represented by cards 0 to 3. In the beginning stages up to Stage Ten we are attempting to build personality into a stable foundation upon which the greater awakening to Self and Self-awareness may be begun. The first Step is the beginning of a Foundation upon which we build our understanding on the journey towards Self-awareness, Knowledge and true Being. As a result of a certain amount of preparation in life, the desire is stimulated towards Spirit. This first step opens the Way towards freedom, independence and self-expression. Yesod is the ninth Sephira on the Tree of Life. Its virtue is Independence; its vice, idleness. In astrology, Yesod is represented by the Moon. At Step One our level of being is governed by and related to the anterior pelvic plexus, governing the organs of generation, whilst the posterior pelvic plexus, governing the organs of evacuation, may be referred to Malkuth. In the chakras of the subtle body, these are represented by the svaddisthana and muladhara chakras respective- ly. At this level, our minds tend to be dominated by sex and materialistic considerations. Stage One, "The Magician" When first we open our eyes after the Awakening, it is as though we have passed through a gate into a new and unexplored region. This stage takes us from Malkuth, the world of appearances, to Yesod, the Foundation. These connecting stages represent the activity of consciousness, and we can expect to be particularly active during this first stage. So, of course, it always is when we discover something new and unknown which invites us to explore. The hidden potential stored in the Yesod aspect of our natures is ready to be stimulated into action, and will have definite effects in the real world. One of the titles given to Malkuth is "The Gate" a title also given in esoteric astrology to the sign Cancer, ruled by the Moon - also attributed to Yesod. One quality of this sign of the zodiac is that of holding tightly to that which we possess; a self-contained principle which at times can degenerate into avarice, a vice associated with Malkuth. Another aspect of this sign is what is often described as moodiness - a description of some Cancerians which may not be gratefully received. More accurately this impression is formed due to a tendency to engage in a considerable degree of reflec- tion, often quite deeply. The Moon, we know, reflects the light of the Sun, and Cancer is a sign which may produce people who often unerringly capture or reflect the activities and attitudes of others. This can sometimes incline to participation in some form of entertainment or theatrical activity. The important thing is that the talent for reflection can be a form of accurate imitation, although it may over- or under-stress certain aspects. So it is with us. In order to understand the nature of people, particularly of ourselves, we need to gather with crab-like tenacity the qualities which may be used to reflect and direct the qualities of the inner and deeper levels of our being, beyond the superfi- cial appearance; to learn to know and understand both ourselves and others, and in so doing, to make improvements. The source of light at this stage is symbolised by the reflective Moon of Yesod, at the feet of the High Priestess, the receptacle of the emanations; the vast hidden potential of the Tree of Life itself, of which it is said that it has its roots in heaven and its branches in Earth. At this stage we are particularly under, and sensitive to, the influences of psychic "moon" forces, and the tenacity and self- containment of the crab are necessary to keep our balance. This is also the very first step in the purification of awareness, and for this reason we must keep ourselves very much awake and alive to the power of the hidden potential whose energies lie before us. In the Waite pack the `Magician' is shown with five objects, four on the table, and one in the raised right hand. This latter represents freedom of choice and action, free will, while the other hand, pointing towards the earth, represents the direction in which the power of a `magician' is to be employed: in the real world of living things, symbolised by the growth of vegetation in front of the table. On the table itself are the four symbols of the Tarot: the wand, the cup, the sword and the coin. These four symbols relate directly to the four worlds of Kabbalah, and to human nature. The wand represents the world of Atziluth; in us it represents our spiritual origin. The cup represents the world of Briah, called archetypal, or world of creation; in us it represents our most fundamental essence, an essence of Spirit, which in its original purity is called Yechidah, recognisable by us only through Knowledge. Yechidah carries the connotation, in Hebrew, of "only child" or "only-begotten" and thus points towards a perception of the otherwise seemingly absurd Christian doctrine of Jesus as the "only-begotten" of God. The Atziluthic principle in us is called in Kabbalah, 'Hia, usually translated "life" but as it is used here is particularly related to the One Life of Kether, origin of all life and of the Tree of Life. The Hebrew word is also the root of the word for "Eve," described in Genesis as "the mother of all life (or living)." The Briatic principle in us is called Neschamah, which may be translated loosely as aspiration and ideals. So we may say that as 'magicians,' in order to perfect ourselves must aim for union with the One Life of Kether, via Yechidah, or the spirit within ourselves, and which we truly are. The sword represents the world of Yetzirah, and the power of reason, properly understood as the intelligence which makes us human in a way different from other creatures. It is this native human intelligence which we now must learn to use as our "sword" of truth, to separate and discriminate between that which is real and that which is not. Discrimination is the virtue of Malkuth. It is the development of this quality which has brought about the Awakening. As we now learn to discriminate between previously hidden qualities within, so we develop in proportion the virtue of Yesod, which is Independence. Although the stages of the Way are each symbolised by the figures on the different Tarot cards, we remain fundamentally the "Fool" in different situations, while the differing images on the cards represent the forces and principles which impress themselves upon us, and which we seek both to reflect into the world, and to reflect upon in our journey towards knowledge and understanding. The coin represents the world of Assiah, of the visibly material, and is represented by what is known as Nephesh, which has been interpreted as the animal passions. The use of the word "pas- sions" is a little unfortunate, for modern usage has distorted its original meaning. It is better to think of this principle as our animal nature, closely related to the body itself, which is the animal form within which all we would-be magicians are temporarily confined. The important, vital thing to remember is that in all the stages of the Way the work that we do is reflected through this animal body and animal nature. It is with this nature and this body that we will give expression to the principles and forces that we come to know, and which are impressed upon us. The activity of these principles and forces will reflect through us according to our understanding, combined with the direction of the will. The energies invoked by the double-ended wand in the right hand will have to pass through the magician (you or me) before they may be directed into the world by the downward-pointing left. It is therefore wise for us to remember that this wand is double ended, and that the sword of reason is double sided - discrimination, in other words, is absolutely essential in all of the 21 Stages. Stage Two, The "High Priestess" In the second stage we meet for the first time the principle of Yesod, the foundation. This might be considered as a first exploratory meeting, for the foundation that is referred to in this return journey is that of a rounded and integrated personal- ity - a work which never ceases in this life, however far we may progress. The stages of personality are the first ten stages along the Way. When we have returned to Yesod a second time via stage nine, and with our feet firmly on this foundation, we may, when we are ready, and if we so choose, take the path of the wheel in stage ten in an attempt to lift our entire level of being from personality, based on the Yesod foundation, to Self, which centres on Tiphareth. This step has been described in one school as a change in our centre of gravity. In stage two, however, we touch the principle upon which personality is based as an apparently unknown and very powerful force in our lives - which it is. In speaking of the zodiacal sign Cancer in stage one, we said that it was ruled by the moon. >From the point of view expressed here, we are saying that in Yesod lies the controlling power which is itself the root cause of tenacity and the reflective qualities we need. In astrology, the element of water is assigned to Cancer, and also to the related signs of Scorpio and Pisces. In the arrangement of the 21 stages, these three signs are grouped around the moon Sephira Yesod, Scorpio falling on the path of the Empress in stage three, on the Mars side of the Tree of Life (Mars being the planetary ruler of Scorpio, and associated with Geburah) and Pisces on the path of the Hermit in stage nine, on the Jupiter side of the Tree (Jupiter being the traditional ruler of this sign, and associated with 'Hesed). It may therefore be said that the foundation of human personality is of a watery, fluid nature; reflective, as water at night may show the reflection of the moon in the sky, and as the moon itself reflects the light of the sun. This illustrates very clearly an aspect of the teaching, that the main function of personality is its capacity accurately to reflect the light of Self from Tiphareth, to which latter Sephira Kabbalah attributes the sun. At this point it is appropriate to say something of what are called the chakras in the human body, and of the subtle body of refined matter commonly referred to in occult literature as the etheric body, or etheric double. It is called a double because, in appearance when seen apart from its denser, more material counterpart - the "shell" we have already spoken of - it is a whitish replica of the physical body with which we are familiar. This etheric body is referred to Yesod, and it is this body which separates from the shell of the physical in certain kinds of out of the body experiences, and at physical death. These experiences are commonly called astral projection, but "astral" projection and etheric projection are by no means the same thing. In etheric projection, consciousness is transferred to this "Foundation" body upon which the physical is molded, and is able to move around in the usual surroundings of the everyday world, which appears exactly as we see it in the normal waking state, except that we may notice a kind of white "mist" pervading everything, called by some the "astral light." This is a term which has had its meaning blurred from too much usage by too many people with not enough understanding or experience. In "astral" projection, the contents, or rather particular aspects of some contents of the psyche, are capable of being projected onto their own plane, which may be an inner, subjective one or an outer objective level one step removed from the etheric conditions mentioned above. It is on this Yetziratic or astral level that the so-called angels and demons, etc. of `magical' operations are encountered, and it need hardly be said that such experiences are of the inner subjective variety, and in conse- quence not reliable as evidence of anything except perhaps the state of mind of the person experiencing these phenomena. Such experience properly belongs to psychology - but psychology is itself an important study within the teaching. On one scale Yesod is seen as the lowest Sephira in the world of Yetzirah, and it is important to realise that in Yetzirah the products of fantasy have as much apparent reality as the record of material events held in the memory. Behind this simple fact lie the roots of some psychological or psychic disorders. The chakras are centres of force, or energy, within the etheric body, and have a similar importance to this body to that which the organs of the physical body have in the material world. In both cases, the organs of the body are vital to existence. The first or lowest of the chakras is related to Malkuth, and the posterior pelvic plexus or nerve complex in the physical body.** In practice, the relationship between the etheric and physical body is maintained by these complex nerve centres throughout the physical body. Under normal circumstances the etheric centre, or chakra, is interwoven with the physical nerve complex or its equivalent by very fine connections or threads of etheric substance. In etheric projection, these connections are loosened so that the etheric double may act independently of the physical, and the energy interplay which is necessary between them to maintain physical life is maintained by what has been called in occult and spiritualist literature as "the silver cord." This is usually seen (when it is seen) us connecting the two bodies, either via the solar plexus centre, or the centre between the eyebrows. There is an aspect of the Malkuth centre which is related to the anterior pelvic plexus in the body, that is to say in the front, and this is referred to Yesod rather than Malkuth [The Svaddisthana chakra]. Serious students will be reminded by this that in practice it is useful to consider these two lower Sephiroth as two parts of a single whole. >From the point of view of the development of awareness this lower centre is particularly related to the first two stages of the Way. The main function of these two plexi and their etheric counterparts is the maintenance of the "automatic" bodily functions such as walking sleeping and breathing, as well as the excretion of waste matter. At the same time, the anterior pelvic plexus is very much concerned with the mechanics of sexual behaviour. It cannot be stressed too strongly that it is the mechanics only, not the delights that are referred to. We may find in stage one, and more particularly two, that sexual awareness is heightened. This level is closely related to Nephesh, and our animal nature, and at this level sexual awareness is of this kind. The more easily recognisable aspects of human sexuality which we experience as excitement, but of a different kind, such as attachment to particular aspects of sex, and which stir our feelings and thoughts, do not belong here. Even so, the attraction of the Nephesh nature is very powerful, and accounts for more of the underlying attitudes and conditioned reflex mechanisms in the human personality than is generally realised. As ever, the essential approach in such matters is that of discrimination and observation. The next centre with which we are concerned is the solar plexus centre, related to the manipura chakra and stage ten of the Way; it is at this level that we, as ordinary human beings, live our lives. This life is based on personality and the four lower Sephiroth. From this point we may, when we are ready, take the step to Self-awareness and transfer our centre of being to the heart centre, related to Tiphareth on the Tree. The Indian method of meditation imported into the West by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is based on a Hindu mantra related to the solar plexus, and we can see how such a method is intended to work upon a particular centre in order to strengthen it. This is one way of building a firm Yesod, a firm foundation, for when we come to stage ten, we return to Yesod a second time, as can be seen from the diagram illustrating the 21 stages. From the point of view of the teaching, such a method used on its own has many shortcomings. It is important to us not only to be able to go somewhere, to be somebody, and to grow in awareness, but also to know where we are, where we have been and to see where we are going, or as much of what lies ahead as may be possible. This is why we have a map, called the Tree of Life, and the information necessary to interpret it. We find it useful to know, for instance, that the Hindus have other mantras for other centres, and are thus able to put such methods into perspective in relation to the whole being, an advantage that someone who practices mantric meditation with no other experience than the mystique of an initiation ceremony in Sanskrit does not possess. This is not to say that such a method of meditation should not be practiced - quite the reverse; but it is to say that such practices are more effective when allied to a system of thought, and to a teaching. Sanskrit is the language of the mysteries for the people of the East. For the West, it is the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Kabbalah, from which tradition Jesus appeared. Having said this, it is also said that all versions of the teaching originates in one source, and that all traditions are branches of one tree. Only good can come out of a marriage of East and West. A glance at both Hebrew and Sanskrit writing still shows traces of what may have been a once common, but long forgotten, language. After the heart centre of Tiphareth comes the throat centre, referred for convenience to Daath and stage 21 of the Way. The centre between the eyebrows is related to that aspect of Daath which lies on the other side of the Abyss, and the sahasrara chakra, the centre above the head, presides over all like a crown, and is referred to Kether. In the development towards material expression down the lightning flash from Kether, Yesod, foundation, refers on the human sale to the etheric foundation upon which the human body is built. In other words, the etheric structure comes first, and the physical is moulded upon it. When the physical body dies, the etheric does not, remaining for a short time the outer container for the individual within. When we first approach Yesod in stage two, we begin to touch upon this level as separate, and to feel something of its power and mystery, a feeling well conveyed by the image of the High Priestess of the tarot. We are, at this point, on the threshold of the Temple, and if the our work as "magician" is properly done, we will be able to pass between the two pillars and approach the holy places within. On the scale of the Ladder, this position is directly related to Path 25, the text of which states: "The Intelligence of Temptation or Trial. It is the first temptation whereby God tests the devout." Stage Three, The Empress The tarot attribution of the Empress and the zodiacal attribution of Scorpio each in their own way depict the powerful forces of life in motion. The natural impulse of this path is from Hod to Yesod, whereas our magician is seeking to develop against this flow, in the opposite direction to the lightning flash and progress from Yesod to Hod. It follows that the discrimination of Malkuth and the independence of Yesod are very necessary prerequisites to attempting this stage. As we saw when describing the Sephiroth, the vital energies of life flow down into the receptacle of the emanations, the form-giving Yesod, and on this path the keyword might well be "vitality". It brings to the body the vital energies of Hod. The sign Scorpio is likewise associat- ed with the generation of forms through its association with sexual vitality, it being the mundane sign of the eighth House in astrology, which is concerned with such matters, as well as the more familiar one of death, the less familiar one of life after death, and regeneration or rebirth. This is an occult house in astrology, and the foregoing leads naturally to speculation regarding reincarnation. Some occult teaching claims that this takes place, and can take many thousands of years for each one of us. It is also claimed that this happens sequentially through time, beginning in our past and continuing into our future. Many people have claimed evidence of this, but as all such evidence is, by its very nature, subjec- tive, and the nature of time is not necessarily what it appears to be, reincarnation is at best a practical working hypothesis for the student. The traditional doctrine runs thus: the stone becomes a plant; the plant becomes an animal;the animal becomes a human being, and the human being divine. This need not be interpreted in such terms, and the tradition does not declare a time scale in the matter. It is clear then that we "magicians" shall need clear heads in order to keep above the rushing waters of vitality shown on the tarot card. Scorpio is a water sign. We learned under Hod when dealing with the Sephiroth that this Sephira is concerned with classification, arrangement and communication. This is the work of stage three, to which may be added analysis, showing yet again the importance of discrimination. We must consider all that we have discovered about ourselves and our world, and all that we are learning still, and relate each to the other and ourselves, using the framework of the Tree of Life as our guide, until we have established a certain stability of thought and approach, which is to become symbolised by the Emperor in stage four. We may think here of the vital energies referred to in relation to the etheric body discussed in stage two. This body has been called the vital body, and the "powerhouse`" behind our physical manifestation. Whereas we referred to individual chakras previously, we may now begin to realise that there is a continu- ous interplay of energies between them, and also a giving and resolving of vital energy to and from our environment and other people, so that the "astral light" spoken of in stage two is, in fact, the medium via which these energies are transmitted from place to place. Some people have an instinctive understanding of such forces, and are able in some measure to take advantage of others, and rob them of vitality. This may well be the basis of "vampire" legends, but in general is much simpler to deal with than by running around with wooden stakes and large mallets. The simplest way to deal with such a problem is, not surprising- ly, to remove ourselves from the presence of whoever it is that is affecting us in this way. Even so, the following comments should be noted. All such activity can only take place through the solar plexus centre, provided that the body is "open" to it. As the body is a complete circuit in itself, we can protect ourselves against unwanted loss of energy (which some people can feel draining away via this centre) by closing the circuit to outside influence, making it self-contained. This is done by ensuring that the feet and hands are together, touching or clasped (or arms folded). If the feeling of loss persists, or is particularly severe, it will help to contract the muscles around the solar plexus, the muscles of the abdomen, and temporarily to hold the breath. The breath should be held where it is, that is to say, do not breathe in or out, but simply halt the breathing process wherever it is at the time. No energy can drain away under these circumstances. It will be as well to mention that such vitality loss is not necessarily due to the behaviour of another person or people generally, and can be due to a simple dissipation of energy on the part of the sufferer - probably the most common cause, though we all no doubt know of people who "drain" us, and whom we instinctively avoid. It will be appreciated that knowledge of these things is gained by observation and experience - as is knowledge of anything. (There is a difference between knowledge and information). To be of use, information must be arranged, related to other informa- tion, and communicated. In stage three we learn to do this for ourselves. STEP TWO Centred on Hod The second step of the Way is where we come to a decision, through reasoning, concerning the desire for real freedom. Here we apply the intellect to the matter of growing towards spirit, and we adopt or discover a system to follow. Hod is the eighth Sephira on the Tree of Life. Its virtue is Truthfulness. Its vices are Falsehood and Dishon- esty. In astrology it is represented by the planet Mercury. Here we have no doubt about the Way, for it is in line with our inten- tions and conviction. In the second three stages during step two, we are strongly affected by the "vital" or "vitality" energies of Nature, sometimes considered to be analogous to the prana of Eastern schools. In common with the psychologist Jung, it is important to mention that purely Eastern systems of development are unlikely to be suited to the temperament of people in the West. Jolande Jacobi, in The Way of Individuation (Hodder & Stoughton, 1967) tells the story of a Western man who spent six years in an Eastern monastery, but had to leave as he could not find what he needed. On his departure he was given an exquisitely wrapped gift. When opened, it proved to be a beautifully bound Bible. The level of being in Step Two is basically that of Step One, except that we are now better able to appreciate the nature of the human personality. Stage Four, The Emperor The symbolism of the Emperor is an apt illustration of developing awareness and individualisation. Hod is an active Sephira, and we may recall to advantage the aspects of Hod previously referred to of analysis and classification. To quote from the previous section on Hod, "the differentiated parts of the manifestation of spirit originated in Kether begin to become autonomous." So at this stage it may be seen that we have come to the place where our own integrity, honesty (the virtue of Hod) and individuality begin to find real expression and importance. Because of this we find in practical work that people progress fairly quickly through the first three stages into stages four and five. The real difficulties of begin in stage six, for by this time we shall be moving away from our own egocentricity towards more universal principles and qualities of Self greater than we can ordinarily contain without special training, given the nature of humanity. The figure on the card is very impressive on a throne in royal robes, carrying orb and sceptre; but the symbolism may not appear so glorious as first impressions suggest when we observe the territory which is ruled over. It is a realm of rocks and mountain peaks. This is the place of the rationalising intellect. There is a fascination about intellectual capabilities which can take hold of us, and we may find that a love of classification, categorising and rationalisation, while being necessary to our appreciation and learning, can hold us back and delay our further development. We need to avoid the temptation of substituting intellect for understanding, and information for truth, else our environment may become as sterile as the rocks which surround the emperor. If we succumb to this power - and powerful it can be - we may sink into smug complacency, becoming unlikely to develop further. Usually, however, having reached the heights of intellect, the very satisfaction with our own progress is likely to provide a spur, for who can resist an occasional glance, or even several glances, at the spot from which they began? Indeed, at this stage we are in a position to use what we have learned, and to place it at the disposal of others following behind, which we can begin to do in stage five. Before we move on though, we should begin to appreciate the deeper function of intellect, namely the ability simply to sit, like the emperor, and watch in silent contemplation. One the scale of the Ladder it is represented by Path 24, "The Imaginative Intelligence." True contemplation is indeed an imaginative process - and constructive. There is no cause for complacency here. Stage Five, The Hierophant This card is called in some packs "The Pope," and the figure on the card is in a position of great respect. So we feel ourselves to be at this stage. We have progressed considerably since we began, and are aware of this. In learning to use our intellect to the best advantage we find ourselves able to discourse, and further to be listened to, by those who have not travelled so far. Perhaps, however, we seem a little pontifical and conde- scending to them. Although we may feel this to be justifiable, for even as far as we have travelled (it is not so very far) this way has not been easy, and we have no cause to be smug. Even so, we are well equipped to be of some help at this stage to those beginning their journey by being able to see clearly some of the conditions which apply en route. Looked at on the diagram of the 21 stages, we see that this stage links the Sephiroth Hod and Malkuth, and we are now in a position for the first time since we began to establish where we are by reference to two other points, much in the same way as a navigator of a ship at sea might take bearings to get a "fix" on the ship's position. Many people linger in this stage for some time, valuing the stability which can be achieved here. Some even become identified with their new condition, and slide quietly along the direction of the arrow towards Malkuth, applying their new knowledge solely to the material side of life, finding that greater appreciation of the laws of action and reaction is of value in their everyday lives. They do not seek to travel further, and there is no reason for them to feel that they must, if they do not recognise a need. Higher Self-awareness is not for everyone, and those for whom it is may not need to pursue it immediately when stage five has been reached, though they may well take up the journey again after a longer or shorter interval. Indeed, if we feel inclined to go no further, stage five is a good place for us to stop, whatever we may do later. Faint hearts are advised to persevere as far as stage five before leaving the Way,for this stage takes us back down to earth, to Malkuth, where our work takes place, whatever we do. For those who go on, however, Step two of the seven Steps remains to be consolidated, and there is one more stage before this is done. For most of us it is the stage where the journey begins to climb uphill, and we need to go twice as fast just to stay where we are. This will be stage six. Stage Six, The Lovers This card shows very clearly our state at this time. It is here that we begin to feel the power inherent in our own feelings; the strange quality that lies in intuition and the glamour attached to sex. It is a very different kettle of fish from the orderly regulation of the neat "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not" of the intellect. The guidelines of stages four and five seem of little value here, yet we shall find that we need to refer to them again and again. We may find at this stage that we are reluctant to undertake this part of the journey. Finding ourselves half way across this path can become alarming - we can begin to swing between intellect and feelings like the unregulated pendulum of a crazy clock. Here we first begin to make the decision whether to go on or turn back, and it may seem that it is as difficult to do the one as it is to do the other. Make a choice we will, however, for the immediate goal of our journey now begins to be visible in the distance as we become dimly aware of the possibilities before us. This is very well illustrated by the symbolism on the card. This stage is the Path which joins the Sephiroth Hod and Netzach, and if we look at this path we see that the Self of Tiphareth, the very centre of the Tree, stands immediately above us, like the light behind the figure in the illustration. If we become aware of this to any appreciable degree, we shall go on, for we become aware that the voice which calls us onward is our own, calling from deeper levels of being. STEP THREE Centred on Netzach The third Step of the Way. During this stage, continual help is being received from outside influences. Here begins to be formed within us a centre from which we may build permanently in order that Self may become manifest in us. The glamour of, and attachment to possessions is very strong. We need to cultivate humanity and humility. Netzach is the seventh Sephira on the Tree of Life. Its virtue is Unselfishness; its vices are Selfishness and Lust. At this point, we must make a definite effort to realise the nature of love, represented in astrology by the planet Venus. The level of being at Step three is basically what it has been since we began, except that we now begin to develop a conscious desire to raise our level of being to a condition more permanent than fluctuating desires of the personality allow. Stage Seven, The Chariot The figure on the card is most handsomely attired, shaded by a glowing canopy, and the horses (in one pack) are two sphinxes, one black and one white, perhaps similar to the Chinese Yin and Yang in intent. The chariot has no reins, and the sphinxes are very firmly sat down, unlikely to go anywhere in a hurry. This does not appear to disturb the charioteer. It is easy to see that the fool who began the journey, now a charioteer, having escaped the austerity of the intellect, needs to relax for a time in the gentle glow of feelings, discovering new delights in appreciat- ing the environment in terms of intuition in contrast to the mental gymnastics which are encouraged by intellectual pursuits. We tend, at this stage, to use our "canopy" a little too much to shield us from some of the unpleasant aspects of reality, looking at the world to some extent through rose-coloured spectacles. To begin with, in stage seven, this is quite natural, and also quite necessary, for it takes a little time to assimilate new experiences of feeling-based events in life. Not that we did not experience such things before, but that they now become more conscious. Throughout the first three Steps, in fact, there is nothing new in our lives other than that we begin to experience more of the events of life consciously, with the difference in attitude that accompanies such activity. Indeed, it is our very awareness that is being developed, to the point where the seat of consciousness is transferred, in Step four, from the personality, or ego, to Self. To use an analogy from elsewhere, there is a change in our "centre of gravity" when Step Four is completed. After a greater or lesser degree of relaxation in stage seven, we begin to realise that we are in the position of being "all dressed up with nowhere to go." We soon find that we can apply this awareness for the benefit of those following behind us on the Way much as we did in stage five. This we begin to do in stage eight. On the scale of the Ladder, stage seven is related to Path 23, "The Stable Intelligence." Stage Eight, Justice When, in stage five, we were able to help those behind us, we were able to do so only in an intellectual manner, classifying and analysing information, pigeon-holing the particulars of our understanding. To do the same thing from a feeling-based approach is not so straightforward, except that by lending a sympathetic and understanding ear, we can sometimes be of more service than in any other way, simply by virtue of our experience and the watchful use of intuition. There is also a tendency at this stage to judge, or assess, other people, feeling how they fit into the pattern of life, comparing their condition with our own and profiting by the comparison. We may also, as may be obvious, fall easily into negative criticism, particularly if our feeling nature receives a few knocks. We can avoid this danger if we are wise, by putting our experience and understanding to good use, an activity which brings its own reward. Gradually, as we come to terms with our feelings and come to understand the powerful effect that feeling as such has in the world around us, even though it is, for the most part, uncon- scious, we gather to ourselves the knowledge gained by means of our intellectual capacities in Step Two, together with the limited experience of our instinctive roots in Step One, and the understanding of the conscious awareness of feelings (and feeling itself) gained in Step Three, which we have now completed. We can now begin to work towards Step Four, in which we hope to become fully Self-aware; but first we must consolidate our position and establish a firm foundation from which to take such a major step. This we shall begin to do in stage nine, attempting to bring together Knowledge (Step Two) Understanding, (Step Three) and Being (Step One). For any major change in awareness to occur, these three factors always combine to provide the necessary impetus, as we may discover for ourselves. Stage Nine, The Hermit In this stage,we take the final steps to establish our foundation - Yesod, towards which Sephira we now return - and the first part of the preparation necessary to reach full Self-awareness. The figure on the card shows a wise man, with the staff of knowledge and the light of understanding going forward alone to establish true being. At this stage we are necessarily alone for a time, and we withdraw from instruction, from seeking experience in our environment, stepping out unaccompanied, using the light we have gathered in these preparatory stages to guide us. We are getting closer to Self, and we look inward more deeply than before in order to integrate the personality attributes of intellect, feeling and instinct, making of ourselves a unity at the lower level of being, so that we may rise to the higher level of Self. We have experienced each of the three lower attributes separately and applied this experience to ourselves and to our environment. Our task in stage nine is to weld this experience together in a "whole" personality and thereby complete a solid foundation on which to build further. Stage Ten, The Wheel Prior to discovering Self, or to be more accurate, unveiling Self, this stage is the most important of the first ten. Here is the opportunity to transcend personality and begin to realise Self. We find that this is by not so easy, for the gate into Self is narrow, and we have to pass through the veil that shrouds the light of Self, shown symbolically behind the High Priestess in stage two, and by the wings of the angel in stage six. To make the transition from personality awareness to Self awareness requires sacrifice. The word sacrifice is used in the spiritual sense of transmutation or change, and not in the sense of "giving something up." We may need to change our attitudes to some most dearly held ideas, ideals and illusions. The personality experiences the cleansing light of Self examination, so that it may be a worthy tool for the use of Self. Habits die hard, and this truth is demonstrated here. We may find that we have to follow the path of the wheel around the in- stincts, intellect and feeling many times again, discovering and integrating parts of personality that we previously overlooked before we are in a condition to enter into the heart, where Self resides. In a sense we are back at Path 25 on the scale of the Ladder, "The Intelligence of Temptation or Trial, by which God tests the devout." Attitude attracts environment. Think about this. Many remain at this stage for a long time - sometimes for years - - without much ambition to go further, being satisfied with a firm foundation and a rounded and integrated personality which brings them true independence - the virtue of Yesod. There is no "fault" in this. They have achieved more than some of us who are still buffeted by the winds of circumstance; driven by personality impulses, instead of controlling them. To enter the next stage, and to take the next Step of the Way requires simple devotion. The ties which bind awareness to personality must be loosened and let go, personality left behind (but by no means forgotten or lost) so that we may discover Self as unadorned as a new born child. It is a Step, and a devotion, that demands the firmest of foundations and a great deal of courage. If we choose to go on, we shall need to reorient our attitudes, desires and ambitions in terms of Self awareness, terms which we do not, cannot fully understand, for we see "As in a mirror, darkly," and we must take Self on trust. Given the courage, we can do this, for the Self that we seek is no stranger; it is the Self which we are, and the personality which we are not. Personality is simply the means through which Self finds expression, which it has in fact been promoting all along, except that we have not been aware as Self, being identified with one aspect of our personality or another. If, on reading this, it seems that we are splitting hairs, then set out upon the Way - and read this again at stage eleven. A certain person is said to have remarked to Sir Isaac Newton that he could not understand why so eminent a scientist should believe such superstitious nonsense as astrology. Newton's classic reply is reported as, "Sir, I have studied the matter - you have not." Stage Eleven, Strength The Tarot card "Strength" is the most subtly representative of balance in the whole of the Tarot. It shows a simply dressed woman bending over a lion and holding its jaws. There is no coercion or exertion; no domination. The lion appears quite calm; the woman is in command. This card symbolises Self-control - i.e., control by the Soul, or Self; control, in fact, of the lower levels governed by Yesod and personality. Nowhere is seen the fierce determination of the fanatic. The woman [soul] is serene; the lion [personality] is obedient. This is precisely the relationship we shall find with personality when we discover Self. We become aware of freedom and clarity. Someone once described this condition as being like a day in the country after it had been raining. Everything is sharper and clearer. Here we can no longer fool ourselves about what we want or what we are. We may ignore what we see but we can never ignore the fact that we have seen it. Some approaches end with the discovery of Self, for when Self is discovered, we have found the expression of the Heaven within. Some, however, will want to explore the new-found condition. Those who go on seek to take the journey three major Steps further. In order to truly know Self, we first discover Self, and then learn to be Self. We investigate and integrate the parts of Self much as we did with personality. There are problems of Self to be resolved, and we shall need to resolve them. After this comes the realisation of Self, in the way that one "realises" assets by putting them to practical use. Before we continue, - if we so choose - we pause here and consolidate what we have learned. The next journey is a quest for Spirit, both human and divine. If we are determined to persevere, we may learn to converse with the angels, and to come to know and recognise the spiritual presence in the Creation. On the scale of the Ladder, this stage is represented by Path 22, the text of which states: "The Faithful Intelligence. Spiritual virtues are deposited and augment therein, until they pass to those who dwell under the shadow thereof." STEP FOUR Centred on Tiphareth Founded on Yesod The awakening of Self. The Fourth Step of the Way. Before this can become permanent, there is a time of preparation and testing. The voice of Self is heard, the impulses of Self become known, and we are gradually given the opportunity to see ourselves as we are. The rest of the journey will need all our qualities. If we continue further, we can be united after Step Four in a manner not easily described. Having permanent centres, these centres are linked in Eternity, and we are truly "members, one of another." Tiphareth is the sixth path on the Tree of Life. Its virtue is Devotion; its vice is Pride. In stage ten, we have our being in the region of the solar plexus in the body, there being continual interplay between this centre and the lower plexi. At the same time, we begin consciously to receive impressions from the heart centre which flow downwards and evoke a response. In Step Four our centre of being is transferred to the heart centre. We get the first real glimpses of spiritual awareness and the warmth of spiritual love. This has been described as a change in our centre of gravity. After such a change, we can never be the same again. guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 22:38:18 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Hawking quote "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes: > Liesel quotes Hawking: >"Although science may solve the problem > of how the universe began, it cannot answer the question: Why > does the universe bother t exist? I don't know the answer to > that." > > Ann responds: I heard a gnostic student say that God wanted to > know everythin but realized he couldn't do it by himself. So he > divided himself up into all the aspects of creation. This reminds me of an aphorism which came into my mind when meditating on the throat chakra: "God hears all, and therefore (or thereby?) loves all." I'm still trying to work out what it means. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 22:35:17 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Writing novels "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> writes: > I found this particularly interesting because in my current > writing, I had to create a "bad guy". At first, I found it > strange to get my thinking to match his twisted mind set, but > over time I began to enjoy making him make mischief He is the > symbol of chaos which is a catalyst for the other character's > growt > > I set up natal charts for all my major characters and that > experience made me wonder how the Great Author keeps track of it > all. He must have help. His storyline is so complicated. Hi, Anne, I'm working on a book as well (although it's getting behind because of lack of time.) I found your idea of making natal charts for the main characters very intriguing, and probably very useful. Re: the baddy; the thing I find frightening about creating my baddy is how easily I can do it, and imagine the things he might do! :-) It's going to be a novel, eventually, and will promote some theosophical themes. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 23:05:05 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: from the Zohar LieselFD@aol.com writes: > I found a poem in my Zohar that has to do with "Exodus", hence > with Easter & Passover. I thought you mighty like it. So here > it is. > > Manna & Wisdom > This is very beautiful.. What does it mean? Or should one just let the symbolism work? It sounds quite alchemical to me. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 22:50:48 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Kabbalah Study guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: > To Astrea: > > Part Three is not too easy to follow from scratch, I must agree. > I have recently (Nov. last) produced a work showing how it is > derived from _standard_ Kabbalist texts, and thus not an > invention of my own. However, if you have not already read, and I shall keep at it. These next few weeks will be very busy though. Somehow I missed this message, and only found it looking through my old mail. Must have been one of those involuntary twitches of the fingers which skips over some messages. > (The last sentence of mine _nearly_ read, "I cannot be uploaded" > - some achievement! How many others, like myself, are acutely > embarrassed when their typos come back with the rest of the theos > mail, I wonder). Saw a programme on TV tonight (Space Precinct) about a computer generated personality which achieved sentience, and uploaded itself into various computers. Kind of interesting idea. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 22:40:00 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Grokking guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: > What I have tried (and still do from time to time) is to attempt > to share the _being_ of the "other" - flower or thunderstorm. > When successful, the only way to describe the experience is that > for a brief time I AM THAT (flower, etc.) and IT IS I. It's a > real WOW, GULP, OH OH OH experience. One time when I was > particularly 'psychic' (Neptune transit - 2 years of it) my sense > of being and awareness was briefly transferred to a fly that had > settled briefly on my coat. I saw "me" through the fly's eyes. > I was _enormous_ and yes, just like the constructed pics of how > science imagines flies see us! I have occasionally "been" other > creatures in this way. I've had some experiences of this: in kind of trance/hypnogic states I've successively had the sense of being some of my colleagues (its good to help understand them.) It was funny the other day, when I crossed someone else's name off a list, because for a moment I thought I was them! THis doesn't usually happen during working hours though. Once I looked at a vase of flowers, and felt that I was the flowers. It was kind of sad, because they didn't realize they had been cut and were trying to grow, but couldn't. I stopped buying cut flowers for a while after that, but I've started again now. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 95 22:54:59 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: MLC 4 & a half am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) writes: > A.P. Sinnett's first book was ~The Occult World~ published in > 1881. The following letter, excepting three passages, was > contained in it. This letter from Master Koot Hoomi to A.O. > Hume was not included in the first three editions of ~The Mahatma > Letters to A.P. Sinnett~. Vic Hao Chin's chronological edition > (abbreviated as MLC) puts it in Appendix I. There are slight > differences in the wording of ~The Occult World~ letter and the > MLC version. The three passages deleted from ~The Occult World~ > are surrounded by double angle brackets << >>. -- Nicholas Thanks a lot for typing in this letter, which I found very interesting. PArts of it are familiar and I must check if they are in our edition of ML. Other parts, I can't remember at all. One part of particular interest was that relating to the moral nature of human action, and how you can't separate ethics from science. Many people have now come to this same view, particularly after experiences with with development of weapons of mass destruction by "morally neutral" scientists. Is he also hinting that Karmic effects also vary according to the intentions of the actor? The passage about how They influence world affairs was also very interesting. How it isnot possible to change the cycle which humanity is going through eg Kali Yug', but that individuals may be inspired or influenced. I wonder who in world affairs might fall into that category in recent years. Of course, there seems to always have to be a choice. Also, the indication of the means by which phenomena can be produced was interesting. All of us do this, in a way, but the intent is more diffused, so often the ideas take longer to manifest - or so it seems. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 14:47:08 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: Poor Tibet > Date: Fri Apr 7 16:00:06 1995 > From: wtn-editors@utcc.utoronto.ca > Subject: World Tibet Network News 95/04/07 21:00 GMT > Reply-To: WTN-L@VM1.MCGILL.CA World Network News Published by: The Canada-Tibet Committee Editorial Board: Brian Given Nima Dorjee Conrad Richter Tseten Samdup Submissions to: wtn-l@vm1.mcgill.ca or fax to: +44-71-722-0362 (U.K.) Subscriptions to: listserv@vm1.mcgill.ca - to join, message should be: SUB WTN-L [your name] - to cancel, message should be: SIGNOFF WTN-L Issue ID: 95/04/07 21:00 GMT Compiled by Thubten (Sam) Samdup Chinese Step Up Attack on Dalai Lama From: Tibet Information Network LONDON, April 7, 1995 (TIN) The Chinese authorities in Tibet have launched a major campaign attacking the Dalai Lama in person and accusing him of blasphemy, forgery and distorting Buddhism. The campaign, last tried on this scale 20 years ago, has already sparked off a number of rural protests, including four by monks from a major Buddhist sect which had previously avoided political confrontation. Using virtually unprecedented language, official government documents are describing the exile Tibetan leader and his officials as the "head of a serpent" which must be chopped off. The new campaign seeks to discredit the Dalai Lama as a religious figure, unlike previous attacks which only criticised his political activities. "How much trace of a spiritual religious leader is still left in him?" Tibet TV viewers were asked by a TV news reader earlier this week. The TV attack on the Dalai Lama was broadcast on the main evening news on 30th March in an item described as a "TV Forum" entitled "Is Dalai still the spiritual leader of a religion?" The broadcast, an unattributed speech implicitly issued by the authorities, indicated that the anti-Dalai Lama campaign is now to be aimed at ordinary people, and that the campaign will be carried out throughout the Tibet Autonomous Region. Until now the campaign has been targetted at officials and party members, who were asked the same question in a lengthy article published in Tibet Daily, the regional Party newspaper, on 10th March, according to the BBC's Summary of World Broadcasts. The TV broadcast this week gave official party endorsement to the newspaper article, which had been signed by an unknown Chinese named Xuan Wen in order to suggest that it did not at that time represent official policy. Both the TV statement and the newspaper article say that the Dalai Lama has "forged" Buddhist texts, "altered" the teachings and "violated" the principles of Buddhism. Buddhism, the articles insist, advocates detachment from worldly affairs, whereas the Dalai Lama has allegedly told his followers to support Tibetan independence as part of their religious practice. Tibet Daily describes this as "wildly attempting to use godly strength to poison and bewitch the masses". It accuses the "so-called spiritual leader" and "separatist chieftain" of incorporating "Tibet independence" into his sermons. "Such flagrant deceptiveness and demagoguery constitute a blasphemy to Buddhism", says the paper. The Dalai Lama's followers are accused of "demanding" that Tibetans hang the Dalai Lama's portraits in monasteries. Foreign tourists who have visited Tibet say that they are constantly asked by Tibetans for Dalai Lama photographs. Individual attacks by the Chinese on the Tibetan leader have been extremely rare, especially since September 1987, when the Party last criticised him personally after he addressed a group of congressmen in the United States. The brief propaganda drive sparked off a series of street demonstrations in Lhasa which are still continuing. Since then Party propagandists have been careful to criticise the "Dalai Clique" rather than the Dalai Lama himself. A TV broadcast on 11th February referred to "splittist elements headed by the Dalai", a derogatory term indicating that a change in tone was imminent, but such remarks are extremely rare in public statements. - "Administering" and "Adapting" Religion - The current campaign against the Dalai Lama is exceptional because it attacks his spiritual abilities, for which the Chinese have since 1979 allowed people to show respect. A senior Party figure contacted in Tibet confirmed to TIN that such language had not been used since the Cultural Revolution, which finished in 1976. The decision to attack the exile leader personally, which involves considerable risks for the Chinese, was made last July at a major policy conference in Beijing called the Third National Forum on Work in Tibet. According to initial publicity, the Forum, which was attended by all China's top leaders, was dedicated to raising 2.3 bln yuan for investment in the economic development of the Tibet Autonomous Region, but since November it has gradually become clear that its main purpose was to launch an attack on religion in Tibet. In technical terms the Forum decided that the attack should be divided into two aspects: administration of religion and reform of religion. "On the basis of law we should enhance the administrative work in the field of religion, and guide religion to be an appropriate practice according to the socialist system," said deputy secretary Raidi at an internal speech on the Forum in September 1994. The practice of "enhancing administration" was clarified in articles in the Tibet Daily on 25th November 1994 and in great detail in the 10th March article, which announced strict quotas on the number of monks and nuns in each monastery, limits on the construction of any new monasteries or nunneries, and the expulsion of any monks or nuns over the quota or under 18 years of age. The November article, which was extracted from an official handbook on the Third Forum's decisions called "the Golden Bridge to A New Era", had given a vague indication of the second aspect of the religious campaign: "Tibetan Buddhism must self-reform and adapt itself to the socialist system, and this must be taught and guided. They must adapt themselves to suit the developments and stability of Tibet." The current propaganda implements this plan to reform Buddhism, which turns out to mean that under socialism Tibetan Buddhists are allowed to be religious but are not allowed to regard the Dalai Lama as a religious leader. "The main spirit of the Third Forum is to adapt Tibetan Buddhism, to reform it, and to separate the Dalai Lama from Tibetan Buddhism", a Tibetan party member in Tibet told TIN. "It is impossible. It is like trying to say that the Pope is not the head of the Catholic Church," he added. - "To Kill a Serpent, We Must First Chop off its Head" - The instruction to attack the Dalai Lama in person was printed in "Golden Bridge to a New Era", the official handbook of the Third National Forum, published in October 1994. "We must always have a clear view of Dalai and reveal his double-faced true colour as much as possible. The force at the fore of the fight against separatism is the fight against the Dalai clique," says the book. "As we say, to kill a serpent, we must first chop off its head, and if we don't act accordingly we can not succeed completely in this struggle," continues the handbook, leaving it ambiguous whether the threat applies just to the Dalai Lama or to the exile Government as a whole. In his key briefing to the Tibet Party Committee on 5th September 1994 deputy secretary Raidi also called for the head of the serpent to be cut off, but the phrase was omitted from the public text of Raidi's speech, published in Tibet Daily the following day and issued in translation by the BBC's Summary of World Broadcasts on 26th September. - Tibetan Responses - The TV broadcast of the anti-Dalai Lama statements indicates that the campaign will already have been initiated in most government offices, and that government employees will have to attend meetings at which they will be asked to state their attitude to the official statements. Opinions are divided over whether Tibetans, who regard insulting the Dalai Lama as the most offensive form of Chinese polemic, will accept the new campaign. "No-one in Tibet will believe these things but I don't expect anyone to stand up and say they don't agree," said one Tibetan from Lhasa. "Anyone speaking out will be knocking against a rock. Nobody will be foolish enough to give their own opinion. If they do they will be finished," he said. However so far this year there have already been more demonstrations than in any equivalent period for five years, most of them in monasteries and nunneries in rural areas outside Lhasa. The rural incidents, details of which are still nuclear, could be a response to early attempts by party work teams to implement the new rulings. Teams of officials from the Public Security Offices, the Religious Affairs Bureau and local leaders were sent in the beginning of December 1994 to monasteries and nunneries near Lhasa to impose the new restrictions, according to unofficial sources. Similar work teams had been sent out three months earlier to set up the new policies. The December teams are said to have demanded responsibility contracts from the heads of monasteries, as well as from parents and monastery sponsors, guaranteeing that their members would not take part in protests. "After that the monks and nuns were forced to put their fingerprints on a written document which stated that they would not join the splittists, and their photographs were taken," said the Tibetan, who said that in some areas the monks had refused to co-operate. Two protests in December, both by monks from Sang-ngag Khar monastery 25 km east of Lhasa, are known to have been sparked off by demands from visiting work teams. Last May, two months before the new hard-line policy on religion was approved by the Beijing leadership, a Tibetan politician warned the Chinese authorities that a crack-down on religion could be counter- productive. "We shouldn't forget that during the Cultural Revolution, atheism was publicised on a large scale amongst the masses, but got the opposite result," Rongwo Lobsang Dondrup told a session of the Tibet branch of the Political Consultative Conference, according to documents seen by TIN. "Instead of accepting atheism, the aftermath amongst the masses had grave consequences. It is time for us to learn these lessons," he said. - Provoking Sectarian Strife - The official campaign against the Dalai Lama repeats well-used Cultural Revolution propaganda describing him as a feudal serf owner "who must use the skulls of human beings to recite scriptures". But it introduces a new attack: that the Gelugpa school, which the Dalai Lama leads, is not the leading sect in Tibetan Buddhism. The splittists are trying to inflate the status of the Dalai Lama "by arbitrarily describing him, one of the leaders of the Dge-lugs-pa, in turn one of the four main sects of Tibetan Buddhists, as the common leader of all Buddhist sects in Tibet", adds the Tibet Daily. The argument appears to be an attempt to incite factional rivalry between the major Buddhist sects, and follows extensive efforts by the Chinese authorities to elevate the standing of the Karmapa, leader of the Kagyupa school of Tibetan Buddhism. The Karmapa, who lives at Tsurphu monastery 50 km north-west of Lhasa, was officially recognised as an incarnation by the Chinese state in 1991 and has since been lavishly praised by the official Chinese media and government leaders. He was taken to Beijing to be a guest of honour of the Chinese president during the parade marking China's National Day on 1st October 1994. On 21st October officials in Lhasa announced that Tsurphu monastery had won an award for its "outstanding patriotic and law-abiding performance". "The government respects religious affairs and cares much about the Garmaba", Xinhua said on 25th October. Attempts to promote sectarian conflict have previously been confined to academic articles which were not intended for public distribution. "Power should have been in the hands of the Geju [Kagyupa] sect and should have had nothing to do with the Gelu [Gelugpa] sect (Dalai), who were therefore illegally in power in Tibet" during the Republican period, a Tibetan historian wrote in the internal Bulletin of Tibet Communist Party History in 1988. - Protests by Kagyupa Monasteries - The current attempt to promote the Karmapa as an alternate leader to the Dalai Lama has already run into difficulties. When Xinhua, the official Chinese news agency, quoted the Karmapa last year as saying he was a patriotic lama who wanted to unite the motherland, the statement was ridiculed by Tibetans. "The Chinese taught him to say this; he doesn't know what patriotic is and what uniting the motherland means," one Tibetan in Lhasa told TIN, pointing out the farce of citing political statements by the Karmapa, who is only 11 years old. "The Chinese think that the Karmapa will become a Chinese Lama, but the Karmapa will never do that, because he is a Tibetan Lama," they added. The comment has an unexpected veracity, because in the last three months the general view that Kagyupa monks would not join the dissident movement has been shattered, with protests taking place in at least four monasteries with Kagyupa affiliations. Kagyupa dissent emerged, for the first known time in recent years, in early January this year, when a pro-independence protest was staged by monks at the monastery of Yamure, 99 km north east of Lhasa. The protest, reportedly sparked off by officials demanding that photographs of the Dalai Lama be banned, led to a raid on the monastery by over 100 troops. On 28th January eight Tibetans, including three monks from the local Kagyupa monastery, were arrested from Katsel, a village 65 km north-east of Lhasa in Meldrogungkar county, after pro-independence posters were put up or dissident books were found in their rooms. In February seven monks from the monastery of Taglung, 65 km north of Lhasa, were arrested. Taglung, like Yamure, is affiliated to a branch of the Kagyupa school. The monks had travelled to Lhasa to stage their protests in two groups, one group demonstrating on or around 11th February and the second on 15th February. But most surprising is news of protests against the Chinese manipulation of the Karmapa by five monks from the Karmapa's own seat at Tsurphu. In December or January four of the five men fled from the monastery after they were accused of putting up dissident posters, but were arrested in Shigatse as they tried to escape to India; the fifth escaped. The monks are said to have left letters in their rooms accusing the Chinese authorities of taking advantage of the child Karmapa. The letters also said that the anti-Dalai Lama campaign was unacceptable, according to one source. Three of the detainees were senior monks at Tsurphu, including Kyigen, the main chant master of the monastery, as well as another who acted as chant master and one who was the monastery's "ge-yok" or deputy disciplinarian. The five men are said to be held in Toelung county prison. Although much of the pro-independence activity inside Tibet has been led by monks and nuns from Gelugpa institutions, there has been intense dissident activity among monasteries and nunneries of the other sects, such as the Nyingmapa nunnery at Shungseb and the Sakya monastery of Dunbu Choekor in Chideshol. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 19:18:57 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Writing novels When I tried to write, I used to go through newspapers & magazines, & pick out photos of what my main characters could look like. Then I looked at the pictures, while i wrote. Worked real well. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 19:25:06 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: from the Zohar Yeah, I think you're right, Astrea, it's alchemical. It says when you eat the dew of wisdom, you don't need to eat anything else anymore, not Manna either. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 19:52:23 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Poor Tibet What this means, I think, I'm almost sure from past experience, is that the Chinese mean to torture & kill more Tibetans to get them to comply with abandoning Buddhism. They may or may not really have in mind to kill the Dalai Lama. That wouldn't do much good. because if they kill the present Dalai Lama, (hopefully, he's being protected) the Tibetans in Dharmsala, & all over the world now, would find another reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. Poor Tibetans in TiIbet, I wonder whether we could start a public outcry campaign. We could write to the Chinese Embassy in Washinton. I'll try to get the address before I send this off. Have to discontinue the e-mail, call up my son in Va, & get back onto the e-mail. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 01:28:03 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: TS chart(s) Err ... Ann (and others): Please could someone be kind enough to upload the _full_ chart info for the formation of the TS in 1875, ie.. including the _time_? Latitude and Longitude would be nice, too. :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 01:30:13 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kabalah 2c Part 2c of Keys to Kabbalah uploading to theos-buds . . . Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 02:00:42 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Kabbalah Study Woe, alas. The old involuntary finger-twitch, eh? I know it well. Kill files can be good, too . . . :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 02:11:11 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Grokking > Once I looked at a vase of flowers, and felt that I was the > flowers. It was kind of sad, because they didn't realize they > had been cut and were trying to grow, but couldn't. I stopped > buying cut flowers for a while after that, but I've started again > now. ASTREA I have done exactly the same thing! The difference is that I still can't buy cut flowers, though sometimes a friend brings some round, and I do keep them . . . I have to opposite of "green fingers" so I am no good at growing indoor plants, which is an alternative. s i g h Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: bill@Zeus.itdc.edu Subject: Re: Grokking Hi all, After a week out of town I come back to find people talking about grokking. I didn't see the original message (I think my net-link was down for two or three days while I was out) but Alan wrote that Liesel wrote: > But I'll use any avenue I find useful to acquire Theosophia. It > inlcudes such things as what Serge King calls grokking, which I > can' t do nearly well enough, because I haven't been practicing, > but what you do is you think/imagine yourself into something else > with Love (be it flower or thunderstorm) & try to find out what > makes it tick, & what qualitites it has that could come in handy > to copy. > > Liesel Since the concept of grokking is something that I truly be- lieve in and I try to incorporate in my daily life, I had to put my $0.02 in. I don't know who Serge King is (although I've seen him quoted here several times before) but the original word "grok" is the creation of the very popular science fiction writer Robert A Heinlein. Robert used the word in what is often described as the most famous science fiction book of all time called _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_. In this book (which has a *very* theosophical feel to it in many places) the main character is Valentine Michael Smith -- the only survivor from the first expedition to Mars. Many years later Michael is "rescued" and brought back to Earth where he tries to teach the Martian philosophy and way of life to several other willing humans. One of the things that everybody learning the Martian way must learn to do is to grok. After the -- oh, I don't know -- forty-second or so reading over the years, this word became so important to me that I came up with this little dictionary-like definition: grok (grak) vi., vt. [< Martian, to drink] 1. a) to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience b) to become one with c) being identically equal 2. to understand something so thoroughly that you merge with it and it merges with you 3. the observer becomes part of the observed This definition is derived from a conversation between several of Michael's friends in the book as they are trying to understand more about who Michael is, his Martian-based philosophy, and the Martian way of life. They theorize that you can't truly hate something until you grok it; then once you understand it at the grokking level, the hate is so "black" that, well ..., I guess you get the idea. The same for love; what we humans call love is nothing until you grok and once you understand it at the grokking level, well ..., there's nothing as beautiful that compares in the typical human existence. Actually, if there could be such a thing a theosophical fic- tion I think that this excellent book would come close. As a matter of fact, I think I'm about due to read it again! (Another greeting that Martians use -- since water is so scarce on Mars -- is "never thirst.") Well I'm off to teach a 3-day class. Be back on Thursday. So to all my fellow theosophists on the list: never thirst and may you *always* grok in fullness ... Bill-- ...who, if at first he doesn't succeed, redefines success. William A. (Bill) Parrette|4000 Executive Pk. Dr., #310 bill@[Zeus.]itdc.edu |Cincinnati, OH 45241-4007 ** I do not speak for ITDC--all opinions are my own ** 513-733-4747 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 95 22:40:33 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Grokking guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: > I have done exactly the same thing! The difference is that I > still can't buy cut flowers, though sometimes a friend brings > some round, and I do keep them . . . > > I have to opposite of "green fingers" so I am no good at growing > indoor plants, which is an alternative. > > s i g h > > Alan I use aromatics extensively for health, cosmetic and other purposes everyday which are based on flowers, barks, resins etc gathered from plants, as well as eating mainly fruit and vegetables, and wearing a lot of cotton and linen. This being the case, it seemed needlessly inconsistent to stop buying cut flowers. They really do contribute something to the atmosphere. Even the Masters, apparently, sent forward aromas of rose and sandalwood to clear the air before they manifested. But I am sorry to arrest their development in this way. Similarly, all the most exquisite tea sets are made from bone china, which, I was told, is actually ground bones. I wrestled with myself over this one, but in the end did not buy them. Same with fur coats, which I adore - although I do wear leather shoes and have leather bags. ASTREEEA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 95 22:23:25 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Poor Tibet LieselFD@aol.com writes: > abandoning Buddhism. They may or may not really have in mind to > kill the Dalai Lama. That wouldn't do much good. because if > they kill the present Dalai Lama, (hopefully, he's being > protected) the Tibetans in Dharmsala, & all over the world now, > would find another reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. Before the Chinese occupation, the Tibetans themselves did quite an effective job of killing off the various Dalai Lamas, mainly by poisoning. Not many Dalai Lamas reached the age of majority for this reason - the Regents wanted to keep ruling as they had done for the young lamas. As you say, if the Chinese govt. had him assassinated, the DL would incarnate again, probably. He always has before. This whole thing is very distressing, including for someone like me, who sympathizes with the Chinese people in general (though not all the policies of their government.) There is so much of value in Chinese culture, but they really put themselves in a bad light here. The government is very sensitive to criticism, which the DL gives them. One positive effect of the occupation, is that it has disseminated Tibetan buddhism through out the world in a way that nothing else would have. Previously, Tibet was very insular. One friend of ours (a theosophist, but with many unique ideas of his own) has the interesting theory that the conflict between Tibet and China is caused by a conflict between the two national devas, or guardian spirits. He thinks that spiritually, the Tibetan one is actually stronger, and that annoys the hell out of the Chinese one. > Poor Tibetans in TiIbet, I wonder whether we could start a public > outcry campaign. We could write to the Chinese Embassy in > Washinton. I'll try to get They are basically suffering a kind of genocide, much like the indigenous peoples in our respective countries did when the Europeans invaded...oops, I mean settled. How would Americans, or Australians feel about Indian activists claiming separate sovereignty, and embarking on a campaign of civil disobediance? I'm not apologizing for the Chinese, just pointing out that other cultures and ethic groups have done the same thing, and quite recently, although mostly before the "human rights" norms had developed through the UN Charter, and various conventions. Am doing a course in "lucid dreaming" at the moment, as promoted by Stephen La Berge. Heard of him? Anyway, he draws quite extensively on the meditative practices of the Tibetan buddhist traditions, which aim at continuity of consciousness 24 hours a day, to comprehend the nature of dreaming, and to understand the dream-like aspect of our waking world. I'm getting long-winded, just right for this list :-)... Better sign off now, ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Apr 1995 15:11:08 -0700 From: KONEIL@pimacc.pima.edu Subject: Re: Poor Tibet The conflict in Tibet goes back at least one thousand years; Tucci's excellent survey of Tibetan buddhist history includes a chronological chart evidencing shifting territories. The dispute, therefore, is nothing new; the means exercised by the Chiense, are utterly barbaric. In volume III of his Masks of God series, Joseph Campbell intersperses excerts from the Tibetan Book of the Dead concerning tortures of the hell realm with eye witness reports of Tibetan refugess concerning Chiense treatment of Tibetans. I have very mixed feelings about Tibetan Buddhism. It's core teachings are extraordinary, and we see a culture organized around the bodhisattva mythos. And we also see a lot of Asian Traditional Religious superstition. Avoidance and denail on the part of monks to speak English to practice nothing more complicated than C.Y.A. makes not only for boring talks, but perpetuates the "full package deal" Japense, Chinese and Tibetan teachers run - in short, you cann't get to the essence of the teaching without taking on the culture, including becoming fluent in their language. I always remind them that the Buddha did not speak their language, nor was he a member of their culture. The excuse concerning Tibetan language's higher vibratory quality is pure hogwash, as it the rationale for putting up with a bad show by excusing it as "the importance of being in the presence of a lama, rimpoche, or what have you." I hate to sound nasty. The truth of the matter is that at age fifty I've been a buddhist for 30 years, studied with some of the great teachers from around Asia, hold a MA in buddhist studies along with ordination and transmission of teaching authority (kyoshi) from one of the majro buddhist traditions (whose leader, like the Dalai Lama, is believed to be an manifestation of avalokitesvara); I'm also a Free Initiator of the Martinist tradition, consecrated in Gnostic Christianity, and master several Rosicrucian systems. And it still costs $1.50 for a cafe lattee!!! The titles really mean little to me; but in that time I've seen about all there is to be seen. Honest people are a source of gratitude - when and where you find them - especially in nspiritual roles. roles. Politics, backstabbing, tretchery, hidden agends, fraud, crime - you name it, are human all too human and widely prevalent. The Dalai Lama is a great man in a caged bird role. Quite frankly, Thich Nhat Hnan, Sulak Sivaraksa, and Akegarasua Haya are tremendous teachers as well, all concerned with individual and social transmutation. So is the Rosicrucian Dream. over glorifying a particular country or over indulging in mythology so that it becomes superstition are barries we must break out of on our spiritual journey to Freedom and Liberation. As a last note, Tibet is a cause celebre among the rich and famous right now. Meanwhile Ahn Su, still under house arrest in Burma, a great buddhist woman writer, was awarded the Nobel peace prize about 8 years ago; her son had to accept it in her behalf. her husband, a harvard professor as i recall. I highly recommned that letters to officials in Occupied Washington demand her release. gassho, Ken O'Neill From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Apr 95 18:30:21 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: TS Charts Alan: > Please could someone be kind enough to upload the _full_ chart > info for the formation of the TS in 1875, ie.. including the > _time_? Latitude and Longitude would be nice, too. :-) Ann : The Theosophical Society 11/17/1875 in New York, NY at 8:00 p.m. Longitude: 73 degrees W 59.5 minutes Latitude: 40 degrees N 45 minutes The American Section 10/30/1886, Cincinnati, OH at 7:22 p.m. Longitude: 84 degrees W 29.9 minutes Latitude: 39 degrees N 8.8 minutes 5 hours difference from Greenwich time for both From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 20:35:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Sirish Agarwal Subject: Re: Grokking Hello everyone, Thanx Bill for putting the words down on Grokking. It felt good to see that I am not the only one who considers Heinlein's work as the TRUTH in theological sense. I do not hurt my position as a theologist in saying this and the following as I ain't one yet. Not that I want to start a Heinlein fan club here but I place his work very near to the preachings of some of the wise people of all times and even better in the sense that he presented his view of whole Truth in a very easy to understand manner. Its like a holy scripture for me and nothing less. One thing about the definition of grokking Bill presents, I would like to see it include "love" as part of definition as I feel the strongest thing comes out from this word is that language of love is the only way to perceive nature, (including humans). (BTW, would love to know if anyone has tried grokking other human beings?) I like to go further and consider "Language of Love" as the essence of the Universe. When one truly loves or groks something, one is able to perceive (best possible, I can come up with) the fundamental force or energy that IS everything. Its like being able to break oneself down to the ultimate force and then just follow it or be it. Am developing a thought process that perhaps this is what they mean by Nirvana? Anyway I am getting ahead of myself here. Would like to talk to you Bill further about the book. Also could someone please give reference for this work by Serge King? Namaste sirish From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Apr 95 20:41:51 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: lucid dreams ASTREA: > Am doing a course in "lucid dreaming" at the moment, as promoted > by Stephen La Berge. Heard of him? Anyway, he draws quite > extensively on the meditative practices of the Tibetan Buddhist > traditions, which aim at continuity of consciousness 24 hours a > day, to comprehend the nature of dreaming, and to understand the > dream-like aspect of our waking world. Ann: Last fall I had the flu and found myself sleeping all the time. All that sleep was conducive to lucid dreaming. It was an eye-opening experience, because the dreams were as vivid and real as earth plane consciousness. In one particular dream, I found myself crossing the street. Waiting for me on the other side was a man dressed up as a fuzzy Easter bunny and waving "hello". -ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 00:21:17 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: TS Charts To Ann: Thank you very much indeed. I shal peruse the charts with interest! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 17:22:00 -0600 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: Re: Poor Tibet Well, Well, This list seems to have, of late, developed into the spiritual equivilent of that group that "exposes" psychics. Both Carl Sagan and Penn & Teller would be pleased. Seems like even the mention of a heroic figure, be it of past or present age, is sure to unleash the voices of "pure historical research" to remind us with a cautionary waggling finger that these people were/are "just human" ... lest we get carried away into a hopeless delusion that causes our hearts to soar and minds to elevate at the thought of the magnificence of souls who have become something more than human minds can even comprehend. Armloads of personal credentials and buckets of footnotes are spread lavishly as the legitimatizing icing on these bitter cakes of "truth"; victimization and martyrdom are then often claimed should anyone go after the authors with even half the intensity and focus the authors have gone after the subjects of their "study". It is, I suppose, the very spirit of our age ... and it is perhaps too much to hope that this list should escape it. My own two cents comes backed with absolutely no credentials, titles, nor the claim to be anything other than one that has looked inside and found therein a pure and insistant sensation that whispers to me, continually, the possibility that lying dormant, as a seed, within my tiny human awareness, lurks the potential to give birth to a being far grander than I can conceive of into a world far richer than I am currently aware of. Now and then, as my awareness looks outward into human civilization, it will stumble across a person, or an idea, that causes that quiet inner sensation to light up, to begin to vibrate because of harmonic resonance ... as the striking of a C note on a piano causes the C on octaves above and below to vibrate. I understand that there are others who not only have felt the same potential within themselves, but who have already discovered how to take that possibility from latency into activity ... have already become that possible inconceivable being and are already living in that far richer world. That some of them maintain a presence in the constricted world my human awareness can grasp...and my dim knowledge of how great a sacrifice this is...is the fuel that drives my quest, the love that drives whatever small service I can accomplish, the standard that perhaps someday in a distant future I'll finally aquire the magnificence to match. I don't know why some people and ideas are those that cause the "resonance". Some are well-known figures of past and present, others relatively obscure. The standards of measurement of the world seem to make no difference in the evaluation. But, the reason, the sole reason, I am attracted to Theosophy is because in it are people and ideas that strike that chord. It is because of this alone that I love HPB, and CWL, and HSO, and Besant, and Bailey, and KH, Morya, and DK. And the Dalai Lama. That they can be "debunked" is no suprise to me ... in fact if my own limited experience is in any way true, one of the first effects of the desire to step onto the path is that one often becomes a difficult, royal pain in the ass. All hidden glitches, all buried densities, every personal frailty from aeons of incarnations is thrust to the surface to be battled. The personality is subject to forces that will, eventually, dissolve it completely. People hover around the philosophy of the path for a long time before being capable of actually withstanding its pure and terrible intensity. Philosophy can be controlled, and ages of wonderful discourse about the nuances of how the steps articulated by tradition X differ from those of tradition Y is still not the actual travelling. The only ones capable of judging the actions and behaviour of the real travellers are those who have themselves withstood the unleashing of all the darknesses within themselves...and I suspect few who have undergone such a thing would have any interest in such judgements. Envision a large group of people who have been in prison so long as to have forgotten that any other world exists. A few, by virtue of exceptional qualities, discover a way out, and discover that the prison has always been surrounded by a beautiful forest. Imagine that they then, out of a compassion almost beyond understanding, decide to voluntarily come back into the prison, to subject themselves to the pain and constrictions of prison life ... for no reason but to speak to those few capable of hearing them about the forest and to deliver maps of the path one must follow to get there. Tell me, how much of the "truth" of these people can be discovered by the rational intellect ... the organ that is perhaps itself the principle architect of the prison in the first place? And what "historical truth" can be discovered? *The only history one who is still a prison dweller can write is the history of someone's movements within the prison.* If the largest part of the Theosophical movement and the lives of its founders and its Masters takes place in an inner realm beyond the capacity of the mind to understand, how relevent is "research" conducted within the mode of the western intellectual tradition? If someone stretches a hand out to a drowning man, and that man launches into a detailed critique of the warts on the hand that is offered ... is he not missing the point just a tad...even if his analysis of the warts is absolutely and completely "correct"? The last couple months of critiquing and debunking has done nothing but cause me to feel a bit sad. I do not mean, with this post, to cause rancor or to in any way belittle anyone's own path to the eternal...but I would ask those who have been cutting our race's great ones "down to size" to perhaps consider whether the very brilliance of the light of their minds may be hurting them very deeply. I go often into the Montana wilderness ... a good place to enter the Silence ... and I notice that if in the middle of a cloudless night I stand right next to my own campfire, and look upward, almost no stars are visible...their light rendered hidden by the glare of my fire...while if I walk but a few feet away, the heavens again appear ablaze with enough stars to choke a moose. I by no means wish to degrade the light of clear reason ... and in fact am a scientist currently trying to apply complexity theory to macroeconomics. Human thought is a supurb tool to understand and serve within the confines of the prison walls ... but truth exists at many scales, and the human mind is only an agent of truth on a limited number of those scales...and it is my belief that the scale upon which the "truth" of the great ones of our race exists is not one that the mind can perceive in anything other than a vague and shadowy way. With love and respect to my fellow travellers, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 02:29:22 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Grokking Sirish writes: > (BTW, would > love to know if anyone has tried grokking other human beings?) All too often it is more like "Yukking" :-). Mind you, grokking oneself is not necessarily a happy experience . . . Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 21:49:28 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Poor Tibet They're making propaganda preceding another blood bath Please send you strong protests to: The Ambassador of The People's Republic of China 2300 Connecticut Ave. NW Washington DC 20008 I will have the Ambassador's name by tomorrow, and will then post the address again. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 22:34:20 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking Bill, I'd heard before that the word "Grokking" first appeared in science fiction. So apparently Serge swiped it from Heinlein. The difference between what you describe and what Serge describes is only that Serge says you can only grok with positive feelings. If you have negative feelings towards the object you're trying to grok, it won't work. That makes sense to me, because then you'd be repelled, & not be able to merge with it. Who's Serge King? I first learned of him because most of his books were published by the TPH. I also did a workshop with him at Omega Institute, in Rhinebeck, NY 2 years ago. I've learned a lot from him, so I tend to quote him a lot, but what he says in Hawaiian terms, is usually pretty universal, Ancient Wisdom. He's a Hawaiian shaman, a Kahuna Kupua. He's also a clinical psychologist, he's also got a degree in Anthropology, & I thought I heard him say in Russian Studies. He studied Hawaiian Kahuna with his father, & after his father died, with an adopted Hawaiian Uncle. As a young man, he spent 7 years in Africa, & studied with shamans there. Then he came back & got his degrees. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:06:01 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Poor Tibet Astrea, Just because other people are doing it too, doesn't excuse the Chinese. They're doing genocide, & the tortures are as sadistic as those of the Nazis and the Stalinists. I don't think any country, no matter how much it is trying to raise its standard of living internally, is entitled to extirpate another people in the process, & that's what the Chinese are doing. I'm very happy too that so many Tibetans are now spreading Tibetan culture all over the world, & I agree with you that this is a good thing, but that doesn't ameliorate the fact that they have ar are again going to torture & kill innocent people. Also doesn't do anything to the absolute hate I felt when I read "My Country My People". Some of the descriptions made your stomach turn, as just for instance that they just sterilized people without their knowledge & consent. Ois Tibetans! If we could do something to stop killing & torturing of more Tibetans, which seems to be in the offing, I'm all for it. (Taking into consideration that 'm too old to fly a plane & drop bombs.) Just incidentally, during Nazi times, a great part of the European intelligentsia also came to this country, and contributed a great deal to American culture, from Einstein to Kurt Weil on down. I'm glad they helped this country grow, but that doesn't make me feel like I should condone what the Nazis did to the people who couldn't or didn't get out. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:17:52 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Poor Tibet That's a very interesting insight you paint from closer by. But I hope you're not trying to imply that because the Tibetan Buddhists are wheeling & dealing, & politicking like every other darn stupid formal religious institution in the world they should be wiped off the face of the earth. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:29:46 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking I've grokked a human being, my mother. It worked very well. But then, I knew a lot about what made her tick before I started. Serge devotes about 2pp to grokking humans. Reference for Serge King on Grokking pp 148- 170 "Urban Shaman" by Serge Kahili King PhD Fireside Book by Simon & Schuster, 1990 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:44:37 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Poor Tibet JRC Keep going. I found in my Path that if I kept at it long enough, & tried all sorts of different ways to achieve my goal, & got some good advice from the right kind of people when I got stuck, I got at least a goodly part of what i was aiming for. I also think that beyond reason there's intuition. Luck, Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 09 Apr 1995 22:19:48 -0700 From: KONEIL@pimacc.pima.edu Subject: Re: Poor Tibet Cher Leisel Quite the contrary. The Tibteans among many wonderful asian peoples i've known offer us much. Begining with sangha, or community - in festivals, and fun. We did that today with a first hanamatsuri for Tucson - flower feswtival, hnoring the rain fo sweet tea and flowers upon th buddha's birth. What one does with for is transmission of that core spriituality as an art of living; not another fucking dogmatic theology or metaphycis. we simply don't have time to indulge in teh wasteful self obsession; the tibetan plight evidences as much. another endangered species of ethical decency - despite their never having learned to be Victorian Puritans in metapphysical drag disguise. No, i like tibetans - along with many native peopels of spirit. They just don't have Denny's resturants which look like toilet rooms gone cosmic. I, do , however, dislike wanna bes. We anglos should learn a way from them - not thier way for our parrottiiiing, but their way as an infulence for our culture. thanks for the email gassho, ken oneill From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 20:35 PDT From: portelli@calon.com Subject: Re: typos physical sounds more interesting! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:45:13 -0500 (CDT) From: WASHCRAF@carleton.edu Subject: Re: Theosophical Differences From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 13 Apr 95 12:23:58 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Re: theosophical differences Eldon: >There have been discussion of theosophical figures from an >historic standpoint. Sometimes serious character flaws are >revealed. Does this discredit the ideas they present? >Probably not. It might affect their ability to express and >present the ideas, but it says nothing about the ideas that >they'd write about. Ann: I hope this is the prevailing viewpoint of most Theosophists. I would hate to see one person's ideas or work being held up as "gospel", against which all others would have to prove themselves. That sort of thing sounds like Dog-ma. (WOOF-WOOF.) Eldon: (Regarding Theos-l) >There has been some >discussion of history and historic figures, but little of >the traditional Teachings. Yes, I have noticed that myself. Theos-l seems to have an organic conversational life of its own. I do not know whether it would be of value to try and keep the discussion on one track or leave it in its current free flowing state. - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 13 Apr 95 12:24:20 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Eldon & Point Loma Philosophy Edon, in the spirit of your interdisciplinary approach to theosophy (which, as you say, is necessitated by the diversity of theos-l itself) I have some questions which cropped up as I read your posting on Theosophical Differences. < That there are core concepts I suppose that we can all agree on reincarnation and karma, but what are a few more of these? < these core concepts lead to a "gnostic breakthrough" that < is not "readily coming" from other arenas Do you mean direct experience here? Mystical experience? Can you amplify a bit as to why you believe that such results are not available in other "philosophical materials?" I recall that you mentioned Zen once, and Zen certainly has a "gmostic breakthrough" available to its practitioners, at least as I interpret your meaning. Or do you mean that HPB's core teachings are simply easier for us Westerners (which is probably true in most cases)? Do you agree with Jung who suggests that Eastern and Western approaches are not compatible? Do you agree or disagree with James Long who taught that our "Western constitution" is not conducive to Eastern meditation techniques? writes: > < That there are core concepts > I suppose that we can all agree on reincarnation and karma, > but what are a few more of these? Here are mine: 1. Cycles -- the cyclic nature pervades 2. Hierarchy -- As above, So Below, also known as the Law of Correspondences 3. Unity -- the fundamental underlying unity of all Life 4. Polarity -- basic duality that overlays the unity 5. Evolution -- proceeding from one state to another 6. Order -- that the universe is fundamentally orderly; that there is a Divine Plan 7. Number -- number underlies all, 1, 2, 3, 7 etc. > true in most cases)? Do you agree with Jung who suggests > that Eastern and Western approaches are not compatible? Do Jung's own investigation of the Secret of the Golden Flower tends to suggest that there are common elements which exist in both traditions. Paul Gillingwater From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 16:40:13 -0500 From: John Tullis Subject: (none) >Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > >> < That there are core concepts >> I suppose that we can all agree on reincarnation and karma, >> but what are a few more of these? > >Here are mine: > >1. Cycles -- the cyclic nature pervades >2. Hierarchy -- As above, So Below, also known as the > Law of Correspondences >3. Unity -- the fundamental underlying unity of all Life >4. Polarity -- basic duality that overlays the unity >5. Evolution -- proceeding from one state to another >6. Order -- that the universe is fundamentally orderly; > that there is a Divine Plan >7. Number -- number underlies all, 1, 2, 3, 7 etc. > >> true in most cases)? Do you agree with Jung who suggests >> that Eastern and Western approaches are not compatible? Do > >Paul Gillingwater Interesting, but not necessarily something everyone will agree on ('cause I don't). For example: Regarding Hierarchy - I don't necessarily think that the "As Above, So Below" which you refer to as the Law of Correspondences has to imply hierarchy. See this diagram A | | | B | | | C Here A is above B which is above C, and they correspond. But A / \ / \ B D / \ \ / \ \ C E F Here is a true hierarchy. But D, while it is "above" E, is not in correspondance with it. Also A B \ / \ / C Here, both A & B are above C, and correspond to it. It is a valid mapping of the "As Above, So Below" reality pattern. I would suggest that all 3 of the above examples show the "As Above, So Below" relationship, yet only the 1st and 2nd examples are hierarchies, and the 2nd example violates the principle in part. Therefore, this is not so simple, and Hierarchies are not necessarily indicative of the principle, and the principle is not necessarily only applied to Hierarchies. The concept of networks was mentioned in a previous posting, and the idea of Hierarchies as organizational structures on the "other planes" may have been shaped by pre 21st century thought patterns. Next, the concept of Order. There may be a Divine Plan, but Chaos Theory, Quantum Physics with the Uncertainty Principle and the Schrodinger's (sp) Cat Paradox leading one to chose between the Standard Copenhagen interpretation versus the Multiverse theory; all lead me to think that the universe (or Multiverse) is not as ordered as our relatively tiny minds perceive. There is clearly order in the universe, as your point about Number underlying all implies, and clearly we have been able to map "Laws" of physical reality to mathematical equations. But whether this means that the universe is fundamentally orderly is, IMHO, yet to be proved even in our own small neck of the woods. John Tullis. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 15:51:22 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: BCW 3 reprinting To One and All: ~Blavatsky Collected Writings,~ volume 3 will be reprinted by Wheaton soon. Dara and I would appreciate it if you find (or have found) any typos or corrections in BCW 3 to send them to us at e-mail address: AM455@LAFN.ORG If you work from the 1982 or 1990 printings it would be better, they have already caught many problems since the first edition in 1968. Best, Nicholas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 02:19:46 GMT From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Re to Eldon & Point Loma Philosophy In message <950413162419_76400.1474_HHL48-1@CompuServe.COM> theos-l@vnet.net writes: > I suppose that we can all agree on reincarnation and karma, > but what are a few more of these? > Jerry S. Beware supposing! I do _not_ agree on reincarnation (note clearly what comes next) as presented in theosophical literature. Maybe it happens, maybe sometimes it happens, maybe it never happens. It is a working hypothesis with many variant possibilities. Karma? Yes, but not in a good guys and bad guys context. If I hit my thumb with the hammer it hurts. I should watch what I'm doing. That's karma, and the lesson is clear: wake up to what is going on right here and now. Whether my thumb will show karmic consequences in another incarnation - who knows? And I mean _knows_, not has this opinion, or believes. Over ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 17:16:51 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re to Eldon & Point Loma Philosophy paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) writes: > Here are mine: > > 1. Cycles -- the cyclic nature pervades > 2. Hierarchy -- As above, So Below, also known as the > Law of Correspondences > 3. Unity -- the fundamental underlying unity of all Life > 4. Polarity -- basic duality that overlays the unity > 5. Evolution -- proceeding from one state to another > 6. Order -- that the universe is fundamentally orderly; > that there is a Divine Plan > 7. Number -- number underlies all, 1, 2, 3, 7 etc. Number is the basis of your 1-6. If you took that away, there would be nothing left. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 11:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: bill@Zeus.itdc.edu Subject: Re: Grokking Hi Liesel, You wrote in response to my grokking contribution: > The difference between what you describe and what Serge describes > is only that Serge says you can only grok with positive feelings. > If you have negative feelings towards the object you're trying to > grok, it won't work. That makes sense to me, because then you'd > be repelled, & not be able to merge with it... My take on grok (and this is just *my* $0.02) is that the act of grokking is, in and of itself, emotionless. When you grok you come into a complete and total understanding. Once you have come to that understanding -- once you have merged -- then you can ex- perience the other's emotions more fully and allow them (or not) to influence your own emotions. I often have to try and grok my corporate students during class to try and understand why they are not "getting" a concept I am presenting. Once I see things from their perspective, I am sometimes able to re-present things in a different way to allow their learning to come easier. But, I'm no expert. YMMV. But, as always, may *you* always grok in fullness. Bill-- |William A. (Bill) Parrette|4000 Executive Pk. Dr., #310 |bill@[Zeus.]itdc.edu |Cincinnati, OH 45241-4007 513-733-4747 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 14 Apr 95 13:17:11 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Paul G >> true in most cases)? Do you agree with Jung who suggests >> that Eastern and Western approaches are not compatible? Do > > Jung's own investigation of the Secret of the Golden Flower tends > to suggest that there are common elements which exist in both > traditions. >Paul Gillingwater In his introduction to The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation (Evans-Wentz) Jung says "But I cannot help raising the question of whether it is possible, or indeed advisable, for either to imitate the other's standpoint. The difference between them is so vast that one can see no reasonable possibility of this, much less its advisability. You cannot mix fire and water. The Eastern attitude stultifies the Western, and vice versa." and also "Instead of learning the spiritual techniques of the East ... it would be far more to the point to find out whether there exists in the unconscious an introverted tendency similar to that which has become the guiding spiritual principle in the East. We should then be in a position to build on our own ground with our own methods. If we snatch these things directly from the East, we have merely indulged our Western acquisitiveness, confirming yet again that 'everything good is outside', whence it has to be fetched and pumped into our barren souls." The article itself is one of Jung's best. In it he equates the collective unconscious with buddhi, for example. To address your point, yes there are common elements, but there are also enough differences to make Jung advise us to form our own techniques rather than to practice yoga and Buddhist meditations directly. One of the techniques that employs Eastern visualization together with Western action and verbalization is, IMHO, magic. Jerry S From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 14 Apr 95 16:28:09 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re to Paul G on Chaos & Order Paul G writes: Subject: Reincarnation - Whose Version? Alan: Interesting attitude. If you don't agree on reincarnation "as presented in theosophical literature" than exactly whose version _do_ you agree on? As it turns out, it was HPB's version of reincarnation that turned me into a theosophist in the first place. I had read a lot about reincarnation from the viewpoint of Vedanta, Buddhism, yoga, and so on. The Hindu version would seem to be that the body is like a suit of clothing that we take off at death and then we simply put on a new suit at birth. This is too naive. I have never been able to accept the idea of a reincarnating ego, probably because of my early studies in Zen which taught me that the ego dies and is reborn every second and is too illusive to reincarnate. HPB's discrimination of ego and Ego seemed to be a bit more acceptable. But I also love the Tibetan teaching of a "collection of others" that Alexandra David-Neel gives (I have never seen this teaching anywhere else, though hints can be found in some of the new Tibetan works being published). This is kind of a monad theory in which we are each a collection of past monadic lives (desires, emotions, thoughts, and so on from the past) rather than a single entity. Also, the idea of tulku (that a strong desire or wish will live on or incarnate in another person) seems to me to have merit. I have recently found where Jung suggests (never comes right out with it though) the possibility that the psyche can take on a new ego in the theosophical sense of reincarnation. He clearly does say that the psyche pre-exists and post-exists the ego, which is only a part (the conscious part) of the psyche. I can accept that the skandas reincarnate, but not the ego. But, since we don't remember our past skandas, the whole business of worrying over reincarnation does seem like mental gymnastics sometimes. During meditations I have run through the reincarnation cycle, experiencing what _probably_ occurs. From this, I find that its not death that scares me, but rebirth. The whole rebirth experience is pure trauma; a scary experience as well as an overwhelming sense of unparalleled restriction. Death, on the other hand, is a wonderful release; a feeling of escape and freedom. Until we can raise our consciousness to the Ego and experience the process of reincarnation for ourselves, I am afraid that we will simply have to accept it on faith. I like your "variant possibilities." This reminds me of H.H. the Dali Lama who once spoke of wanting to come back as a fly. Ah, well. Back to my Quiet Room. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 16:47:36 CDT From: Nowan Subject: Unsubscribe? Hello everyone. Sorry to be bothering you all w/ this, but the only address I have for this list is the one I'm writing to now. I'd like to unsubscribe -- could someone send me info on how to do so? Thanks, Jeremy Hankins (aka Nowan)----jjhankin@midway.uchicago.edu http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jjhankin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 20:59:29 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking Hi, Bill, Love your armadillo! Re the grokking .. sounds to me like your way is working for you. We differ... well, so be it. Vive la difference. I personally think HPB would concur. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 17:57 PDT From: portelli@calon.com Subject: Re: Unsubscribe? Good call. When you find out pass me the info. At least one frog... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 17:54 PDT From: portelli@calon.com Subject: Re: Grokking Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't grokking something done in a science fiction novel? Aren't we getting a bit beyond......reality...maybe? Let's Grok! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 23:13:35 -0700 From: toddkatz@ix.netcom.com (Todd Katz) Subject: PG Bowen & Occult Way I'm going to be unsubscribing now. If you're interested in eventually being part of a forum on PG Bowen's Occult Way please send me email at toddkatz@ix.netcom.com I don't know when I'll be able to set up such a group, but I'll definitely be doing so. Best wishes in your searches, -- tk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 95 10:35:44 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Can East ever meet West? Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > > To address your point, yes there are common elements, but there > are also enough differences to make Jung advise us to form our > own techniques rather than to practice yoga and Buddhist > meditations directly. One of the techniques that employs > Eastern visualization together with Western action and > verbalization is, IMHO, magic. I know this is the "received Wisdom" of the modern Western esoteric tradition. However, I don't like it. Although there is some truth in it. The applications of Eastern techniques does need to be reviewed for the conditions we live in, but so do the Western ones. It's difficult to live like a monk or nun in a Christian order whilst holding done a job, as well. I have been practicing Hatha yoga techniques for over 17 years now, and can report nothing but benefits therefrom. The problems only arise when I stop. Also some Buddhist or Hindu meditation techniques transfer very well, in my experience. The problems come from the heavy cultural conditioning attached to some traditions eg the very Japanese traditions associated with Zen practice didn't suit, but the basic elements of the practice would be applicable almost anywhere. Isn't it true that as humans, we are all genetically very similar? Why make a hard and fast distinction between East and West? Where does the West end and the East begin? (I've heard it said often that this occurs in Vienna. There are a lot of Turks about, mostly Muslim. But I suppose this religion would qualify as a Western religion as it came from the same region as Christianity.) WHy did HBP bring the teachings of the East to Europe if she (and her MAsters) thought it to be wholly irrelevant in the West? I view the entire range of human traditions as my inheritance, and will continue to avail myself of its riches without distinction as to what direction it came from. (Anyway, I'm from New Zealand, and the tradtional European distinctions of east/west etc don't hold down under.) If reincarnation is true, probably I've spent longer in China and India than I have in the South Pacific. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 95 11:47:14 +1100 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: Re to Paul G on Chaos & Order Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > I can agree with all of your topics, Paul, except Order. This > smacks too much of Personification for me. Besides, Order A very interesting point, which I agree with to a certain extent. Specifically, I perceive that the universe does have a mixture of order and chaos--anyone studying a little physics will see evidence of both. The crucial question is whether "intent" is both a sufficient and necessary condition to explain why this fundamental (one might even say "implicate") order exists. If so, whose intent? I also wish to avoid Personification -- but suspect that Consciousness (i.e. Purusha in relation to Mulaprakriti) is responsible for the existence of Order, and also guides evolution (and of course involution -- I didn't forget it.) > is the chaos factor that allow for change, and thus for growth. Yep, absolutely. Chaos is necessary to bring about differentiation in the root substance. But even chaos seems to have pattern, in terms of following laws. > only "plan" is the one we humans give; Jung calls it meaning. I can't cite an authority, but my intuition suggests that we shouldn't limit the ability to conceptualize a plan to just the human kingdom. If you accept the possibility of higher (and lower) intelligences according to the law of Correspondences, then perhaps "meaning" is abstracted at levels that to us are relatively (but not absolutely) Divine, e.g. the Solar Logos. > Now I tend to agree with Meister Echkart, who taught that the > world needs no purpose or plan, life is for living. In doing so, surely he was acknowledging the existence of a loving God? Paul G. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:02:11 -0500 (EST) From: IXCHEL@delphi.com Subject: East/West, what's the best? It is not mentioned often, but HPB attempted to teach a form of meditation to her INNER GROUP. There was a little room with a door that had a little window through which she was able to observe her students while they were meditating (I believe they did not do group meditation). Now the question is, what type of meditation did they do and was it Western or Eastern? All that seems to be left in order to judge this is what is called _The Diagram of Meditation. I can't remember if this diagram was put together from some- one's notes, as I do not have the books with me that hold the history of this. But if one examines the material in this diagram, it looks rather generic at best. That means neither East nor West. It seems to me, that as Astrea pointed out, the basic human qualities of consciousness are the same in all people. Perhaps it is better to distinguish the difference between minds as either Materialistic or Spiritualistic, rather than Western or Eastern, as today there are material- istic Easterners and spiritual Westerners. I believe Jung made a distinction between the Introvert and the Extrovert that could also be a better definition of the differences among us. Although Jung, of course, had his unique definition for those labels. Often I have read, in many source books from different authors, the admonition to students to refrain from the practice of Hatha Yoga. It is my opinion that this discouragement is outdated, as the exercises in the average Hatha Yoga class, taught all over the world today, are nowhere near the extreme postures that HPB and HSO witnessed in India. Sarah From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:01:36 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: test -- don't read Well, if you must -- go ahead N. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:34:02 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: BCW 3 reprinting ~Blavatsky Collected Writings~ volume 3 is being reprinted by Wheaton in a month or two(?) Dara and I would appreciate anyone who finds (or has found) any typographical errors or other corrections in BCW 3 to send them only to e-mail address: AM455@LAFN.ORG Please use the 1982 or 1990 reprintings to proofread, many mistakes since the first edition of 1968 were caught before them. Also please give the line number as well as page #. If counting from the bottom of page, say line 12up, for example. thanks, Nicholas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 15 Apr 95 17:02:01 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Astrea Astrea: Agreed. Modern theosophists need to find new techniques that will work in our modern world. Jnana Yoga is probably a good start since most of us like to read and study. The favorite of the TSs is Karma Yoga (good deeds), but this technique is the slowest of all, and most of the hard work doesn't pay off until somewhere in a future life, which helps us now not at all. Actually, Karma Yoga with the right attitude (i.e., not seeking any reward) is a lot harder than it looks. Astrea: Thats great. I tried Hatha Yoga and failed miserably. I could never do a full lotus, even in my young and flexible days. Nowdays a half-lotus is out of the question as well. I have subscribed to Joga Journal for years, but am reduced to jealous drooling over the pictures of yogis far more dexterious than I have ever been. I daresay that making a pretzel of oneself is a good start along the spiritual journey, but alas, I had to skip over it entirely, as I found myself to be quite incompatible with the exercises. They are reported to be great for your health, if you can do them. Astrea: Well, actually, there are some genetic differences in sexes and races (though, what these differences have to do with the spiritual Path, is quite beyond me to say). Jung taught that the West is extroverted while the East is introverted, and the two types are mutual exclusive. However, we must remember that he was speaking in generalities (or averages) and so individual people can cross, and have crossed, over successfully. Astrea: < WHy did HBP bring the teachings of the East to Europe if she (and her MAsters) thought it to be wholly irrelevant in the West?> The Teachings are certainly not irrelevant. Jung (and I) was talking about techniques, not teachings. HPB and the Masters brought no techniques to the West, just Teachings. But I think that you have touched on something very important here. I think that HPB and her Masters "modified" esoteric Buddhism and Vedanta just a little to make it more palatable to us in the West. What would Sinnet or Hume have done with the Buddhist teachings of suchness, emptiness, or Clear Light? Probably not much! I believe that they deliberately modified these teachings by puttings these ideas in terms of monads that the West could accept and understand. The same is true for the Vedantist teaching of nonduality, which is jibberish to most Western ears. I will doubtless recieve a few flames for this one, but I can't help speaking out when I feel strongly about something. Astrea: Aha! Well, no wonder. Actually, your eclectic attitude is exemplary, and one that we should all follow. Astrea: I sometimes feel the same way, except that with me it is Tibet rather than China (of course China thinks that Tibet _is_ China). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 15 Apr 95 17:01:22 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Resp to Paul G PG: Agreed. PG: Agreed so long as we recognize that there is no causal relationship between the laws of order and the laws of chaos (the relationship is strickly acausal). PG:< my intuition suggests that we shouldn't limit the ability to conceptualize a plan to just the human kingdom. If you accept the possibility of higher (and lower) intelligences according to the law of Correspondences, then perhaps "meaning" is abstracted at levels that to us are relatively (but not absolutely) Divine, e.g. the Solar Logos.> I agree that the Solar Logos probably has a plan (as do the Cosmocratores and Manus, etc). But it is doubtful that we humans understand it. In most cases, we try to perceive the Plan, but humanize it (distort it) in various ways. In other words, what has meaning to us, may not have meaning to other beings. But what I was objecting to is Divinity, which I don't believe has any Plan other than the general urge toward self-expression. I just didn't like your phrase "Divine Plan" but Spiritual Plan or Mahatmic Plan or any other name would be fine. JS >> Now I tend to agree with Meister Echkart, who taught that the >> world needs no purpose or plan, life is for living. PG >In doing so, surely he was acknowledging the existence of >a loving God? Let me give you a quote which has always affected me deeply: "For if Life were questioned a thousand years and asked: "Why live?" and if there were an answer, it could be no more than this: "I live only to live!" And that is because Life is its own reason for being, springs from its own Source, and goes on and on, without ever asking why--just because it is life. Thus, if you ask a genuine person, that is, one who acts [uncalculatingly] from his heart: "Why are you doing that?"--he will reply in the only possible way: "I do it because I do it!"" (trans. by Raymond B. Blakney) And yes, Meister Echkart does talk a lot about God, some of it sounding typically Christian. But once in awhile he will say something that will make you stand up and take notice. For example, in the same sermon as above (in fact, later on the same page) he says: "When both [God and you] have forsaken self, what remains [between you] is an indivisible union." And in another sermon, he writes "nothing is as near to me as God is. God is nearer to me than I am to myself" which is pure Christian mysticism. Another of my favorites is: "When I return to the core, the soil, the river, the source which is the Godhead, no one will ask me whence I came or where I have been. No one will have missed me--for even God passes away!" Now this last quote is a true gem, but I suspect that one has to have been there onself to understand it. This highly mystical teaching will fly right over the heads of most Christians and theosophists. I dare say, he could get himself flamed for saying such things here on theos-l. :-) Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 20:04:22 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Reincarnation Jerry writes: > Interesting attitude. If you don't agree on reincarnation > "as presented in theosophical literature" than exactly whose > version _do_ you agree on? No one's! Try ;Reincarnation formula Reincarnate %1 %2 %3 ..... %n ;where variable is variable > I have recently found where Jung suggests (never comes right out > with it though) the possibility that the psyche can take on a new > ego in the theosophical sense of reincarnation. He clearly does > say that the psyche pre-exists and post-exists the ego, which is > only a part (the conscious part) of the psyche. Jung gives very clear (and different from your apparent usage) definitions of psyche and ego. The latter, for example, he sees as a complex within the personal unconscious, and actually call it "the ego complex" - that is, a collection of affective experience(s) which calls itself "I" from a number of differing viewpoints (cf. Ouspensky). > Until we can raise our consciousness to the Ego and > experience the process of reincarnation for ourselves, I am > afraid that we will simply have to accept it on faith. There's the problem. If Ego in Jerry is the same thing as Monad in Alan, then the doctrine as usually given refers to the reincarnation of this "essence" (cf. Ouspensky again). As the "lower vehicles" do not reincarnate, we do not therefore (it says) remember past lives as a matter of course. If that is so, we are dumped here unjustly, for we have (it says again) to learn the lessons bestowed by karma from past lives without being allowed to remember what we did wrong. To accept anything "on faith" is a dubious proposition. Insofar as faith=trust then we will only trust what or who we already know to be a reliable source or witness. > I like your "variant possibilities." This reminds > me of H.H. the Dali Lama who once spoke of wanting to come > back as a fly. That's nice! :-). I have past life memories, but I do not believe that they are necessarily memories of my own personal experience - only that they are memories of past lives. Spelling it out: they could just as easily be the real memories of people who have gone before, and are long since "dead" by our usual definition of death. Who or where they are now is another story. > Ah, well. Back to my Quiet Room. > > Jerry S. ... keep a space for me .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:57:31 GMT From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: East meets West? > The applications of Eastern techniques does need to be reviewed > for the conditions we live in, but so do the Western ones. So I too have found. > Also some Buddhist or Hindu meditation techniques transfer very > well, in my experience. And in mine. > I view the entire range of human traditions as my inheritance, > and will continue to avail myself of its riches without > distinction as to what direction it came from. (Anyway, I'm from > New Zealand, and the tradtional European distinctions of > east/west etc don't hold down under.) > > If reincarnation is true, probably I've spent longer in China and > India than I have in the South Pacific. > > ASTREA If reincarnation is true, there isn't enough room for all of us to come back in Wellington ... or Vienna. Plenty of room in China and India - maybe that's why the idea mostly seems to come from there! :-) Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:10:34 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Grokking Dear Portelli, We've been that way, apparently before you came in. Grokking does appear in science fiction, but is also taught in Serge King's "Urban Shaman". It's a way of trying to learn what makes up another being. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:50:13 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: East/West, what's the best? Dear Sarah, I'm wondering where you got the idea from that HPB watched her students meditate through a little window. I believe that, since she was clairvoyant, she didn't need little windows to watch them through. I understand that learning to meditate with the help of a knowledgeable clairvoyant is a great help, because I guess the person can see auras, & can easier tell what the meditation learner is doing. I have friends who learned to meditate that way. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:59:56 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Astrea To Jerry & Astrea, My beliefs & practices are eclectic as well. I adapt whatever sounds right to me. Harry taught me to meditate to Beethoven's symphonies. Kind of a guided meditation, except that you can read different things into the music at different times. I wrote up once how it's done, if anyone is interested. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 23:13:53 -0500 (EST) From: IXCHEL@delphi.com Subject: Liesel's little window Liesel, I read about the little window in either _The Inner Group Teachings_ or in vol. XIII of _The Collected Writings_. I can't remember off hand which it was. It is certainly not something I would make up. Perhaps someone out there knows exactly where the mention of it can be found. Sarah From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 95 13:04:12 +1100 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: East/West, what's the best? IXCHEL@delphi.com writes: > Often I have read, in many source books from different > authors, the admonition to students to refrain from > the practice of Hatha Yoga. It is my opinion that > this discouragement is outdated, as the exercises > in the average Hatha Yoga class, taught all over the > world today, are nowhere near the extreme postures > that HPB and HSO witnessed in India. I believe that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the practice of Hatha Yoga, as long as one restricts the practice to the postures and the simpler breathing techniques. When one goes beyond this into performing kriyas and advanced pranayama, then the possibility exists of activating kundalini before the personality has a chance to integrate and manage the associated experiences. All of the sources I have studied indicate that such practices (especially those concerned with raising kundalini) should only be practiced under the close supervision of a competent teacher, and only then if the aspirant has eliminated all traces of selfishness or self-importance. I'm not suggesting that such practices can't be used without moral development, merely that such a course of action is likely to be extremely unwise and productive of some highly educative karma. On a personal note, I'm avoiding such practices until I can reach some improved state of personality integration. Paul G. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 09:09:58 -0700 From: am455@lafn.org (Nicholas Weeks) Subject: Re: Liesel's little window Sarah> >I read about the little window in either _The Inner >Group Teachings_ On p. xvi Jinarajadasa says: "I am told that there was an opening, a window, from HPB's room into the Occult Room, so that she could keep the student in Yoga under observation." Point Loma Pubs. sells this book. Nicholas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 95 17:49:14 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: East and West again I like the topic heading: Re: Mmmmeeeeeeee (Big ego trip! - not really, just joking :) Actually, I am please we have found some areas of agreement. Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > Agreed. Modern theosophists need to find new techniques that will > work in our modern world. Jnana Yoga is probably a good start > since most of us like to read and study. Yes, but its not dry study. It's really grokking the ideas and principles. This can take you right to Plato's world of the archetypes, and probably beyond. The favorite of the TSs > is Karma Yoga (good deeds), but this technique is the slowest of > all, and most of the hard work doesn't pay off until somewhere in > a future life, which helps us now not at all. Actually, Karma > Yoga with the right attitude (i.e., not seeking any reward) is a > lot harder than it looks. I try to apply this to my work. Very imperfectly. But even a small effort makes a difference to ones peace of mind, in comparison to colleagues who don't. They are constantly harrassed and disappointed when things don't go as plans. I try to do the work impersonally and then let the results take care of themselves. It certainly reduces the worry, although sometimes its hard to do. > Thats great. I tried Hatha Yoga and failed miserably. I could > never do a full lotus, even in my young and flexible days. I used to be able to do it, but am out of practice a bit now. Just do what you can. The important thing is to keep trying _as you are now_. Don't compare yourself with others. (You know all this intellectually.) Any way, you might be doing much better than them in other ways. E.g. I bet those yogis know zip about Enochia ;-) > subscribed to Joga Journal for years, but am reduced to jealous > drooling over the pictures of yogis far more dexterious than I > have ever been. I daresay that making a pretzel of oneself is a > good start along the spiritual journey, but alas, I had to skip > over it entirely, as I found myself to be quite incompatible with > the exercises. They are reported to be great for your health, if > you can do them. Get a good teacher. I could hardly be described as a pretzel - more like a donut, perhaps :-) (ever since baking donuts in that Zen centre...), but I can still attempt the postures. And they do have a lot of health benefits if done under the proper supervision. > spiritual Path, is quite beyond me to say). Jung taught that the > West is extroverted while the East is introverted, and the two > types are mutual exclusive. However, we must remember that he was > speaking in generalities (or averages) and so individual people > can cross, and have crossed, over successfully. I have the greatest respect for Jung. But he wrote for his time, as does any one. And a lot of Western mindsets can be found in the East now, and vice versa. I don't always agree with this distinctions between male and female, either, as a lot of this is socially conditioned. > that HPB and her Masters "modified" esoteric Buddhism and Vedanta > just a little to make it more palatable to us in the West. Yep, could be right there. > without distinction as to what direction it came from. (Anyway, > I'm from New Zealand, and the tradtional European distinctions of > east/west etc don't hold down under.)> > > Aha! Well, no wonder. Actually, your eclectic attitude is > exemplary, and one that we should all follow. Goody :-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 95 18:03:47 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: East meets West? "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes: > If reincarnation is true, there isn't enough room for all of us > to come back in Wellington ... or Vienna. Plenty of room in > China and India - maybe that's why the idea mostly seems to come > from there! :-) > Aw, I don't know. You could squeeze a lot more people into New Zealand if you tried, and got rid of some of those sheep. (Or "sheeps" as my non-English mother tongue friends quaintly say - I never correct them.) Geographically, it's about the same size as Britain or Japan, I think. You could fit a lot more into Austria too, but they don't seem very keen on that idea :-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 95 18:06:53 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Astrea LieselFD@aol.com writes: > To Jerry & Astrea, > > My beliefs & practices are eclectic as well. I adapt whatever > sounds right to me. > > Harry taught me to meditate to Beethoven's symphonies. Kind of a > guided meditation, except that you can read different things into > the music at different times. I wrote up once how it's done, if > anyone is interested. > > Liesel I do a kind of meditation whilst listening beautiful music too, although almost exclusively at concerts. It's not the same listening on a stereo for some reason, no matter how good. I think the collective emotions of the audience and orchestra amplify the experience. Also, I practiced grokking on some ancient Indian Buddhist art today at an exhibition, letting the image and feeling of the sculture impress itself on the mind... ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 14:04:25 -0500 (EST) From: IXCHEL@delphi.com Subject: The little window... To Nicholas, Thank you for finding that reference to "the little window." I thought of you when I suggested, "someone out there might know......." Sarah From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:40:28 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Kundalini can get you > All of the sources I have studied indicate that such practices > (especially those concerned with raising kundalini) should only > be practiced under the close supervision of a competent teacher, > and only then if the aspirant has eliminated all traces of > selfishness or self-importance. > > I'm not suggesting that such practices can't be used without > moral development, merely that such a course of action is likely > to be extremely unwise and productive of some highly educative > karma. On a personal note, I'm avoiding such practices until I > can reach some improved state of personality integration. > > Paul G. A colleague of mine, when in his twenties, raised kundalini through practising yoga methods _unsupervised_. He was quite ill for at least two years, though was later able to return to his metaphysical studies. Moral: Don't go ego-tripping with this stuff! :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:04:58 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Liesel's little window OK Sarah, I believe you. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:27:40 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Astrea Hi, Astrea, I agree... concerts are better, but since I can't get to one of those often enough, & this is my main mode of meditating, I do it with earphones. It's good, even if not the same. Bet you had a ball grokking Buddhist art. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 11:42:00 -0800 From: ddd@hss.caltech.edu (Doreen Domb) Subject: SOURCE OF QUOTE? Anyone out there know the source of the following: "There is only ONE LIFE ENERGY shared in varying degrees of consciousness by man and animal, vegetable and mineral, so the BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY is not an ideal to which we all aspire but a fact in nature, which all must realize." I need to reference it for something I'm writing. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP! - Doreen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:02:46 EDT From: uscap9m9@ibmmail.com Subject: the flower festival With but a few minutes remaining during lunch, I have time to make a few quick comments on Ken's posting on the flower festival. More detailed comments to Ann and Jerry S. will have to wait for now. -- Eldon Tucker ---- I'd agree that the important thing we all seek for is the spirituality that arises from a well-developed art of living. Metaphysics, though, plays an important role in living, unless it is divorced from day-to-day life. Various ideas about the world and universe are but hollow words, unless there is a real, living, dynamic connection with outer life. There must be tangible expression given to what we know, or it goes stale, becomes posionous, and must be discarded. In Zen practice, we might be encouraged to hold off on a study of the sutras until we've developed good insight, and have a solid meditative practice. A solid grounding in spirituality is needed or a study of higher philosophy will be unanchored, and be mere mental speculation. Our experience of living is qualified and enriched by the ideas that we hold, and by the context of the situation, which our understanding and memory bring. Memory, knowledge, and insight give us unique experiences. Three people from different backgrounds -- say a Zen Master, a materialist scientist, and a hard-working social worker -- experience the same outer circumstances quite differently. There is a vast difference in the world based upon the inner life of the beholder. Much of this difference comes from what that person knows, perceives, and understands. A rigid mind leads to an ugly experience of life, when we think about it. A spiritually enriched mind, in touch with the sacred side of life, beautifies our experiences. The value of metaphysics is our life depends upon our having a healthy relation to our 'intuition mind', and is not good or bad per se. Theosophy is often called the Esoteric Philosophy. "Philosophy" means the love of wisdom, and when we add "Esoteric", we're talking about the love of that wisdom that comes from the hidden, or unseen side of life. Wisdom is knowledge rooted in our lives, knowledge or ideas or metaphysics that has become an integral, living part of our everyday lives. It is a beautiful pursuit. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 15:05:07 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Interested in Subscribing. A few of my friends, after hearing the quality of much that I read and learn from this group, are interested in overhearing our conversations. I have forgotten how to instruct them on on how to subscribe. John or anyone else please send me the subscribing protocol so they can decide if this group if for them. I am not out there prosyletizing for theos-l but some people who I think would benefit, and /or contribute, from the discussion are interested. Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:15:20 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Montana Sky JRC, Enjoyed your post, especially the analogy of the camp fire to the Montana sky. Montana keeps coming up in my life lately. Just last week I was with friends planning a summer trip to Montana. Some day I hope to visit. Lewis llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 01:53:44 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: SOURCE OF QUOTE? > Anyone out there know the source of the following: > > "There is only ONE LIFE ENERGY shared in varying degrees of > consciousness by man and animal, vegetable and mineral, so the > BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY is not an ideal to which we all aspire > but a fact in nature, which all must realize." > > I need to reference it for something I'm writing. THANKS FOR > YOUR HELP! - > > Doreen > This is the text of a poster printed many years back for the Bristol (England) Lodge of the Theosophical Society, of which I am a member. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Apr 95 23:09:31 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Art and Yoga I haven't kept up with all the recent posts, but jumped in on this last bit about East and West and meditating to music and the dangers of kundalini yoga etc. And for my two cents worth, I would like to add that the less structure generally, the better my results have been as far as this type of things goes. For me, if I can use art or meditation or group work as a means of listening without expectation, then amazing sychronicities may take place and order emerge from the chaos. If I try some specific system, I am often disappointed because my expectations and intuition are frustrated by the complexity of the ritual (this is probably due to the karma of my patience rather than the system, but then I will probably never know). And again for what it's worth, I have tried several forms of kundalini yoga which usually involve intense breathing along with movement of the spine and have found them interesting but not dangerous except to people who might be karmically predisposed to a dangerous awakening. Stanislov Grof, who I can't remember if he has been mentioned on theos-l or not, did a great deal of work with LSD before it was illegal. He felt that it allowed for experiencing what he called coex states or condensed experiences like the stage around birth which include the garden of eden experience of the womb, the no exit of state of contractions, the apocalyspe of the crushing birth canal, and the final resolution of birth. He later used what he called holotropic breathing along with intense music and art to try to enduce these states in a rebirthing process. I have found these breathing techniques useful sometimes, but again didn't experience his system exactly as he stated. I do remember several people who tripped out, so to speak, but it was about personal issues rather than the process (maybe same for kundalini??). I think the point is not only about introversion and extroversion, but a seperation of the mind and body. Since Descartes we have been doomed to not only the East vs the West but the jocks vs the nerds! And as I have stated before, I think the writings of the Masters and HPB have a lot to do with the art of meditation and introversion (the study of one's own mental state's, hopefully higher) that one can test only with one's own introversion without appeal to external authority. Namste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Apr 95 23:41:39 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Reply to Jerry on Reincarnation Jerry writes: As it turns out, it was HPB's version of reincarnation that turned me into a theosophist in the first place. I had read a lot about reincarnation from the viewpoint of Vedanta, Buddhism, yoga, and so on. The Hindu version would seem to be that the body is like a suit of clothing that we take off at death and then we simply put on a new suit at birth. This is too naive. I have never been able to accept the idea of a reincarnating ego... I have recently found where Jung suggests (never comes right out with it though) the possibility that the psyche can take on a new ego in the theosophical sense of reincarnation. He clearly does say that the psyche pre-exists and post-exists the ego, which is only a part (the conscious part) of the psyche. I can accept that the skandas reincarnate, but not the ego. But, since we don't remember our past skandas, the whole business of worrying over reincarnation does seem like mental gymnastics sometimes. . . . I like your "variant possibilities." This reminds me of H.H. the Dali Lama who once spoke of wanting to come back as a fly. Keith writes: In reply I would like to reintroduce the idea discussed by me in relation to the film "The Little Buddha" that the the gene pool allows for the constant reincarnation and endless variation in traits. In some way we all may possibly get to be everybody else in endless variation throughout endless time in innumerable universes including parellel universes and things like meditation and dream states. The We that experiences this in not you or I, but is what is the underlying UNITY CONSCIOUSNESS commonly called God and thus in some ways is a personal God with anthropomorphic qualities and not just DIVINE LUMINOUS MIND, but we can call IT that also. Thus we get to be everthing and all, but only a little at a time, at our little modems. But the BIG INTERNET in the "sky" could be called God, but It needs us as much as we need It. In some way O.J Simpson will be mixed up with Mother Theresa and we will get to be them both. Thus lwe can never fully aspire to be perfected beings in Nirvana because we already are as Unity, but as individuals now hang back like Nirmankayas to teach as best we can or work as best we can, a little bit at a time. This makes my ego very pissed off (to use the French). I'll go now to the quickly filling up and increasingly noisey quiet room. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:13:18 -0700 From: MARTINLEI@eworld.com Subject: Another view on Core Concepts The idea of "Core Concepts" in Theosophy always bothered me. They are very Aristotelian in nature. Once you separate them, define them, explain them you have got nowhere. They are a closed road. Ultimately they lead to the death of Theosophy in a study group and in our minds. You see, Theosophy -interpreting the spirit of HPB - is shown in two faces: ......... Exoterically = through the three objects of the T. S. ......... Esoterically = through the three fundamental propositions as established in the Secret Doctrine, see Proem. There you provide the seeker with a lot of hope and wonder, with a whole picture, a historical, mythical and mystical path that transcends our own souls.... there is no end to it . . . We become like Socrates who knowing nothing made him at the eyes of Apollo through the Pythias the wisest of all Athenians. As HPB said in the SD, Anthropogenesis (Vol 2. pag. 24 ) "Put more metaphysically, the classification given here . . . is more one of convenience than of absolute philosophical accuracy." With concepts like the core ones you immediately polarize people. Some will like them or dislike them. What follows is my observation in lodges throughout the world: we tend to label people as: they are theosophist, they are prepared, they certainly studied these concepts in previous lives . . . . . or they will not grasp these concepts because of . . . bla bla bla... But Theosophy is a open book of wisdom that provides light of our inside and about the Kosmos which are the same and one. It is though love of wisdom that we may explain the terms required to be used in theosophy, and here we should use the Sanskrit, Hebrew, etc words to open like roto rooters do the clogged antakarana of the listener. your brother: Martin Leiderman (martinlei@eworld.com) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 03:37:47 -0500 From: OSMAR DE CARVALHO Subject: Music & Meditation Aloha, Astrea and Liesel! > I agree... concerts are better, but since I can't get to one of > those often enough, & this is my main mode of meditating, I do it > with earphones. It's good, even if not the same. I love to do some of my personal meditations with music, especially sounds of mantras. Apparently this kind of harmonic tune leads the mind very quickly to the trance state and the feeling of emptiness. On this subject I was told that Radha Burnier says that was not advisable to use music in meditation, because "music is a kind of form and meditation aims to achieve consciousness beyond forms." From my experience I arrived to the conclusion that music is very good to attain the "concentration" state, as a sonic "mandala", but its fixation on one of the senses works similarly as an "anchor", which refrain the consciousness to enter the deep "meditation" level. What you think about it? Shanti! Osmar *|) GLASHwave/QWK v2.12 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 11:03:22 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Kabala, Bible & Goddess I waited till after Easter to tell you-all about this, but I do want to run it by you, & see what you-all think of it. It was an experience that hit me over my feminist funny bone. Since Alan Bain started teaching Kabalah, I decided to get one of my few Kabala books off the shelf, & read it through (which I'd never done before). This one is by David Sheinkin MD. Reading some of his beautiful words, & growing loving & expansive, I read that Jews should really study the Bible, because each letter's sound, each letter's shape has meaning. That seemed wonderfully mysterious to me. So I took down my especially beautiful Aryeh Kaplan version of the 5 Books of Moses, & started to leaf around in it. In back of the book, I found Haftorah portions for the 1st & the 2d day of Passover. This being the season, I began to read those. On the 1st day of Passover, the Haftorah says, God told Joshua to circumcise all the "people", because all the ones who had been circumsized in Egypt had by now died off, & the younger ones needed to be circumsized. "Well," I thought,"if that's what they needed to belong to the good old boys club, more power to them." I sort of half disregarded that the Bible said Joshua circumsized all the "people", when in reality it was all the "men". Well, and so what. On to the reading portion for the 2d day "The king commanded Chikiah the High Priest, the priest of the 2d order, and the doorkeepers to bring out from God's Temple all the vessels made for Baal, for the Asherah, (a Goddess lfd) and for all the host of heaven. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron and carried their ashes the Bethel. He deposed the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high palaces in the cities of Judah, and around Jerusalem,; and also those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the planets, and to all the hosts of heaven. He removed the Asherah from God's house, outside Jerusalem to the brook, Kidron; and there he burned it, beat it to dust, and threw its dust on the graves of the common people. He broke down the house of the sodomites, in the area of God's house, __where the women wove coverings for the Asherah__.". I thought Asherah sounded a lot like Astarte, so I went to look her up in my encyclopedia "Godesses & Heroines." Asherah was a Canaanite Mother Goddess, wet nurse to the gods, & to human rulers to. Her symbol was a stick or tree anchored into the ground. I had read in one of my women's history books, that this persecution of pagan gods in Biblical times, was often persecution of a Goddess. This kind of persecution went on over many centuries, until finally, the male God was the only one left, until very modern times, when it was decided that worshiping only a male God resulted in very skewed worshipers.. Needless to say, with this discovery in my very own Bible, my expansiveness ended, & my women's rights self got her hackles up. The redemption came from 2 sources. Returing to David Sheinkin's book, published in 1986, he quotes the Bible "In the image of God, He created him, male & female." and says that God was actually androgynous. He also goes on to say that the right Sefiroth are masculine, the left Sefiroth ar feminine, the center Sefiroth are androgynous. A couple of pages further Sheinkin says ."it is a clear principle throughout the Torah that whenever there was a woman prophet & a man prophet alive at the same time, the woman prophet was always on a higher level than her male counterpart. The Bible states this principle quite explicitly." The female is already spiritualy charged he says, & the male becomes so, "through circumcision", and various other rituals. Makes a lot of sense, but anyway, that's what he says. And it's a darn sight better than burning Goddesses. What really brought me back to my Easter peace, was a message from a friend, happens to be a man friendly to women's causes. "I wish you the felt presence of God and good spirits." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 18 Apr 95 12:20:12 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Keith Keith: < In some way we all may possibly get to be everybody else in endless variation throughout endless time in innumerable universes including parellel universes and things like meditation and dream states.> According to the collection-of-others theory found in Tibetan Buddhism, each and every cell of our body is composed of what G. de Purucker calls life-atoms. When we die and our body decays, these life-atoms go out into the world and are karmically attracted to other incoming people (i.e., physical bodies in the fetus stage). Thus your body is composed of life-atoms that were once in the body of Jesus (probably only a few) as well as Jack the Ripper (hopefully only a few). G de P says that our life-atoms will await our own rebirth, whence we will pick up, via some kind of karmic psycho-physical attraction, where we left off in the last life. To match the two theories, I would say that while the fetus develops, it attracts _most_ of the old life-atoms, while allowing plenty of new ones to be used as well. So, these "new ones" are those from other bodies; thus we do, in fact, share with other people and, as you say, we "get to be everybody else." As an aside to this interesting, albeit unprovable, idea, the ancient Egyptian magical technique of mummification could well have been done for the purpose of preventing a rebirth - thus ensuring a long stay in Devachan. Also, the Hindu technique of cremation was done (and still is) to ensure a more speedy rebirth. The Tibetans, by the way, lay the corpse out on open fields or rocks and let the birds and animals eat them, thus ensuring that even in death they will be helping other living beings. I guess a lot has to do with motive here. Keith: The one main thing that you do _not_ want to do with Kundalini Yoga is to breathe hard or intensely (unless you are working under a Teacher). This almost guarantees Kundalini to stir, which will usually cause a lot of mischief (see Gopi Krishna's account of his own rousing of this goddess in his amazing autobiography). I found out long ago that headaches and other problems came when my breathing was too intense. Try shallow gentle breathing, and Kundalini can be awakened easily and quietly. Takes a little longer, but it safer, and the end results are the same. Keith: I think you are confusing introversion with introspection. Even an extravert can practice introspection. But I agree with what I think is your intended meaning. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 18 Apr 95 12:20:47 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Paul G Paul G: < When one goes beyond this into performing kriyas and advanced pranayama, then the possibility exists of activating kundalini before the personality has a chance to integrate and manage the associated experiences.> I personally believe that the number of people who have raised Kundalini by using the techniques of Hatha Yoga can be counted on the fingers of a very few hands. I know that Hindu Tantras employ Hatha Yoga techniques (the classic text _The Serpent Power_ being a good example), but Tibetans do not. I roused Kundalini many years ago through breathing and visualization. I have never been worth 2 cents with Hatha Yoga. Also, virtually all yogic Adepts credit Hatha as being a lower form of yoga (usually only one step up from Karma Yoga), and this in spite of Yoga Journal, which emphasizes the merits of Hatha Yoga. It is the breathing, not the posture, which raises Kundalini (Gopi Krishna did not use Hatha Yoga either, by the way). The actual breathing technque that is necessary (the vase breathing technique given in Naropa's Six Yogas) is easy to do, once you learn how. You can do it lying down, sitting, in lotus posture, or upside down. Paul G. Were your "sources" all theosophists? Let me assure you that the elimination of "all traces of selfishness" is the work of the Adept, and not us poor Initiates or Chelas. A sincere desire to help others (e.g., taking the Bodisttavic Vow) is a sufficient qualification. Paul G: < On a personal note, I'm avoiding such practices until I can reach some improved state of personality integration.> If you plan to wait until you have eliminated all traces of selfishness, than you will doubtless wait for a very long time indeed. However, on a psychological note, the very conviction or intuitive feeling that one is not "ready" or not good enough or pure enough or whatever enough to Tread the Path (which _always_ awakens the sleeping goddess within us, eventually) is probably sufficient reason to avoid it. The Path is not to be tread by anyone with strong self doubts (we all have some doubts about ourselves, at least in the beginning). As I said above, a sincere desire to help others is sufficent qualificiation. But, a _sincere_ desire to help others is not all that easy to obtain, and actually only a very small percentage of the human population has it. Just a few thoughts. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 18 Apr 95 12:21:27 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Alan on Reincarnation Alan: Yes, his definition of ego or "ego complex" is very Buddhist, and many Buddhists agree with him. Let me give you a quote to chew on: "The ego, the subject of consciousness, comes into existence as a complex quantity which is constituted partly by the inherited disposition (character constituents) and partly by unconsciously acquired impressions and their attendant phenomena. The psyche itself, in relation to consciousness, is pre- existent, and transcendent." (Jung, Collected Works, Vol 17, p 91) And another: "By virtue of its indefinite extension, the unconscious might be compared to the sea, while the consciousness is like an island rising out of its midst." (Jung, CW, Vol 17, p 51) Now, the picture of a wave rising up from the ocean and then falling back into it has long been taught in the East as a metaphor for ourselves undergoing the process of reincarnation from a purely esoteric standpoint. Here Jung comes very close to accepting reincarnation in the sense of the psyche taking on a new ego-complex. Alan: < If that is so, we are dumped here unjustly, for we have (it says again) to learn the lessons bestowed by karma from past lives without being allowed to remember what we did wrong.> Nobody ever said that life was fair. :-) Are nightmares fair? Actually I see the learning or "school house" model as very exoteric. In a more esoteric sense (which means it can't be put into words correctly, but only in an approximation) we come here like artists to express ourselves and our unfulfilled desires. But since the ego, like the body, is new each time around, it has nothing whatever to "remember" any more than the body does. Only the psyche or atma-buddhi "remembers" and its memory is but the "essence," as HPB puts it, of each past life. So I would agree with you that those folks who remember tiny details of past lives, are probably focusing in on something else. Alan: Children must trust in their parents, or face the trust vs mistrust issue of Erikson's first developmental stage (in other words, without trust we human beings cannot have a healthy growth). We all must trust that this world was created and is maintained by someone (or some others) superior to us. Most of us trust that justice will win out somehow and somewhere, either soon in Heaven or karmically on Earth in some future life, or here after the ressurection, or something. The desire (or intuitive conviction) for justice burns in the hearts of most of us. Yet we certainly see little of it when we look at the world around us or watch the evening news. Many people have faith or trust in a higher power of some kind. The problem is, just what do we "know to be a reliable source or witness?" Our senses? Our intuition? Because most of us have nagging doubts about all of the sources of information about this world, we have faith in something that we cannot yet witness or observe directly. It is healthy to doubt, up to a point. But most Doubting Thomases are crass materialists, and my problem is that I can't trust my own senses very much (neither physical, astral, nor mental -- all are suspect). Alan: < I have past life memories, but I do not believe that they are necessarily memories of my own personal experience - only that they are memories of past lives. Spelling it out: they could just as easily be the real memories of people who have gone before, and are long since "dead" by our usual definition of death. Who or where they are now is another story.> This is exactly the Tibetan teaching that we are each a collection-of-others. If the subjective self doesn't exist (i.e., the ego, soul, and spirit are all aggragates and thus have no suchness) then how can they reincarnate? The Tibetans answer this question by postulating a collection-of-others, which is like saying that we are each a monadic host, rather than a single eternal monad. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 18 Apr 95 13:01:21 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Liesel & Goddess Liesel, As you doubtless already know, circumcision was and is a purification ritual. Just as the ancient Jews had a lot of rules concerning their diet, so the males were circumcised to remove their "uncleanness" and to be more pure - like women were naturally. Of course women too can be circumcised, and this is done even today (I saw an expose on TV recently, but can't recall the country). The problem is this: with men, it has no influence over sex, but with women it totally prevents orgasm. Men use this to keep their women in line, and unfortunately enough women condone it to allow it to keep going. Those women with education and a little money leave and come to America, which is what the TV show was focusing on. I am pretty sure that Jewish women were _not_ circumcised, but you would probably know this better than me. In ancient times, women were always highly regarded, and their status fell only in more recent times, as the male gods predominated. This historical fact is well known in Wiccan circles, where the Goddess is making her comeback. Modern women like Gimbutas (The Language of the Goddess and several others) are showing that ancient times (roughly stone age to pre-ancient Egyptian) was matriarchal and women were esteemed because they embodied the Earth Goddess. The ancient Egyptians were pretty equal in their treatment of the genders, while post-Egyptian cultures became patriarchal. Want a prediction? I predict that the gender pendulum will swing the other way for a few thousand years, as matriarchy regains new ground in the West. The Goddess is rising even as we speak. As to theosophy, we can fit all of this into a small spiral within the overall Arcs of Descent (where the goddess has sway) and the Arc of Ascent (where the god has sway). Each time the pendulum swings, it passes through its mid-point where the two sides are equal; a time of equality that is, unfortunately, short lived. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:39:25 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Art and Yoga Keith, What you say about successful meditating, goes the same way as Harry Van Gelder's teaching. I think i quoted this poem of his before, so I'll just paraphrase. Focus the mind on what is, expand the focus beyond form, to ideas, to cognition, to Love & Beauty, to Univesal Synthesis. Concentration of the mind leads to the blockage of life. Only the process of Cognition & understanding is expansion to infinity. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:56:22 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Music & Meditation Oscar, Re: trance state. If you use the music as background, & don't concentrate on it, it can lead you to a trance state. Also, he said not to go to sleep with music playing. Harry taught that if the music made you feel Love to let it expand the heart chakrah, if it made you feel Beauty, to let it expand the crown chakra. Feelings of peace, I think go to your Inner Self. Does that make sense? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 20:31:56 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Liesel & Goddess Jerry, Female circumcision, is a very barbaric custom practiced in some African countries. The name "circumcision" is used for both sexes, but the intent is entirely different. How can you compare the 2? Male circumcision is supposed to make the man holy, female circumcision is meant to cripple the female. The civilisations you name, like Egypt, were all pre- bibilical. Starting with Bible times, the Goddess got it more & more in the neck. The Celtic priestesses fought long & hard in order not to be subjugated by the Romans, but the Romans won. They're coming back into their own nowadays. If we're lucky & do this thing with some sense, we won't have the arc swing towards Goddesses for the next 1000 years. That's just as skewed as having all male gods. Let the male gods do their thing, & let the female goddesses do their thing, the 2 being completmentary, rather than antagonistic, & maybe you'll get closer to peace on earth in the next 1000 years. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 20:26:13 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: SOURCE OF QUOTE? guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes: > This is the text of a poster printed many years back for the > Bristol (England) Lodge of the Theosophical Society, of which I > am a member. > > Alan Ah ha, a "Bristol Frater" ;-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 20:28:05 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Art and Yoga Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes: > And again for what it's worth, I have tried several forms of > kundalini yoga which usually involve intense breathing along with > movement of the spine and have found them interesting but not > dangerous except to people who might be karmically predisposed to > a dangerous awakening. These do work if done correctly and persistently, and yes they can definately be dangerous - but educational. I practiced Kundalini yoga for sometime and had a number of interesting experiences. I stopped for several reasons, including a dream where the Kundalini herself spoke to me in the form of an electric snake, and advised (in a round about way) that it would not be a good idea to take things too quickly. > I think the point is not only about introversion and > extroversion, but a seperation of the mind and body. Since > Descartes we have been doomed to not only the East vs the West > but the jocks vs the nerds! I like it! I think I must be a nerd (INTJ in Myers-Briggs personality test,) your favorite ASTEROID From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 20:50:52 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Music & Meditation OSMAR DE CARVALHO writes: > Aloha, Astrea and Liesel! Aloha! > I love to do some of my personal meditations with music, > especially sounds of mantras. Apparently this kind of harmonic > tune leads the mind very quickly to the trance state and the > feeling of emptiness. I think this is a valid tool, and certainly tried and true amongst most monastic traditions (that i know of.) Have you heard Hoomi chanting? (aka overtone chanting.) Developed in Mongolia and practiced in Central Asia, it produces a shift in consciousness very quickly indeed. David Hykes and his choir from NY are excellent exponents of the art. > On this subject I was told that Radha Burnier says that was not > advisable to use music in meditation, because "music is a kind of > form and meditation aims to achieve consciousness beyond forms." Radha's approach seems very austere at times, and may not suit everyone. > From my experience I arrived to the conclusion that music is very > good to attain the "concentration" state, as a sonic "mandala", but > its fixation on one of the senses works similarly as an "anchor", > which refrain the consciousness to enter the deep "meditation" > level. > > What you think about it? Sure, why not? I find a good live performance of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony really does things for me! Don't forget the Silence, though ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 20:42:48 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Another view on Core Concepts MARTINLEI@eworld.com writes: > The idea of "Core Concepts" in Theosophy always bothered me. > They are very Aristotelian in nature. What's wrong with Aristotle? I know he was a rather dry writer, but has contributed much of value to Western civilization, particularly in respect of the scientific method. Once you separate them, define them, explain them you > have got nowhere. If Theosophy has no core concepts, how can we have any idea of what we are talking about? Why even have the Theosophical Society? Admittedly there may be a "higher" (read:more abstract) experience of Theosophy which transcends definition. But how can this be promoted or communicated? They are a closed road. Ultimately they lead to the death > of Theosophy in a study group and in our minds. Oh dear! > You see, Theosophy -interpreting the spirit of HPB - is shown in > two faces: > > ......... Exoterically = through the three objects of the T. S. > ......... Esoterically = through the three fundamental > propositions as established in the Secret Doctrine, see Proem. > > There you provide the seeker with a lot of hope and wonder, with > a whole picture, a historical, mythical and mystical path that > transcends our own souls.... there is no end to it Why does this exclude core concepts, or at least clusters of ideas? Maybe what you're really objecting to is a certain dogmatism, and a lack of spirit of inquiry amongst members of the TS. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 21:08:35 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Keith Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > autobiography). I found out long ago that headaches and other > problems came when my breathing was too intense. Try shallow Is that all? You had it easy! ;-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 20:58:11 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Paul G Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > I personally believe that the number of people who have > raised Kundalini by using the techniques of Hatha Yoga can > be counted on the fingers of a very few hands. You seem to be defining Hatha Yoga very narrowly. > worth 2 cents with Hatha Yoga. Also, virtually all yogic > Adepts credit Hatha as being a lower form of yoga (usually > only one step up from Karma Yoga), and this in spite of > Yoga Journal, which emphasizes the merits of Hatha Yoga. A _lower_ form of Yoga!? For a chaos wossname, you have a very hierarchical approach! :-0 If union is achieved through a practice, who is to say it is higher or lower. Each form of Yoga suits people with different temperaments. I wouldn't say Karma Yoga was the _lowest_ form of Yoga, by any means. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 18:50:19 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Kabala, Bible & Goddess Liesel - Your feminist observations re the Bible deserve a wider audience - there are a lot of people out there who need education! You might like to check out Ezekiel (presumably in the prophets) which in Xtian bibles is Ezekiel 8:14 ... "Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of YHWH; women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz" Tammuz was the son of the mother-goddess ashtaroth, astarte, ashereh, etc., etc. who was in her various guises THE mother goddess of antiquity, and Tammuz can just as easily be one of the other "sons" of the goddess in other traditions - especially those who were sacrificed and re-born annually in the spring. What is interesting in the Exekiel passage (helps to read it all in context) is that the patriarchalists are complaining about what must have been a _regular_ and in all probability _accepted_ by the local people. So far as I can establish (though I may need to look a little deeper) the Temple they were weeping by was that of King Solomon! Even with what many would regard as a re-worked scriptural text of many such, the suggestion has to be that the Israelites of Ezekiel's day regarded such "Goddess" activity as a normal part of their religious life. Solomon, so far as we can tell, with his many wives, was no angel, and it may be that - evidence in support of this idea welcome! - his famous Temple was built, originally, for the worship of the Goddess, and not the later YHWH of the Israelites. [See the writings of G.R.S. Mead, onetime secretary to HPB, re "Jewish" and Talmud sources which throw a different light on Xtian material and bible versions]. Before anyone rushes in with flames - heaven forbid! - it may be as well to mention that my doctorate comes from an Institute for Eastern Christianity studies, and that I have been a member of both the SBL and AAR (Soc. of Biblical Literature and Academy of American Religion). :-). BTW - my e-mail direct to you re land in Cornwall was in the hope that you might be aware of sympathetic feminist _organisations_, not just individual women. Right now, it look like this land will go out of women's hands. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 00:53:49 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Music & Meditation > On this subject I was told that Radha Burnier says that was not > advisable to use music in meditation, because "music is a kind of > form and meditation aims to achieve consciousness beyond forms." > From my experience I arrived to the conclusion that music is very > good to attain the "concentration" state, as a sonic "mandala", but > its fixation on one of the senses works similarly as an "anchor", > which refrain the consciousness to enter the deep "meditation" > level. > > What you think about it? > > Shanti! > > Osmar *|) >From my experience, I would support the Radha Burnier opinion. The use of music as an aid to relaxation and the contemplative type of meditation (which I call contemplation, but some call meditation) is of course useful in its own right. With good wishes, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 00:58:54 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Re Alan on Reincarnation Jerry - Thanks for the Jung quotes. I have read them before many times, and spent around 18 months on this study alone, so am very familiar with his work, as that of his main pupils and later teachers in their own right - Jacobi, Fordham, Harding, Neumann. :) > Alan: < If that is so, we are dumped here unjustly, for we > have (it says again) to learn the lessons bestowed by > karma from past lives without being allowed to remember > what we did wrong.> > Jerry: In a more esoteric sense (which means > it can't be put into words correctly, but only in an > approximation) we come here like artists to express > ourselves and our unfulfilled desires. Who says, and upon what _evidence_? But since the ego, > like the body, is new each time around, it has nothing > whatever to "remember" any more than the body does. Only > the psyche or atma-buddhi "remembers" and its memory is > but the "essence," as HPB puts it, of each past life. > So I would agree with you that those folks who remember > tiny details of past lives, are probably focusing in on > something else. See above :-). How is psyche defined as atma-buddhi? and why? Psyche [Greek] can mean "mind" or "soul" or "self" or all of these. You seem to be using ego in the above comment in a _non_ Jungian sense: this could confuse some of our readers when it appears alongside the Jungian interpretation, could it not? > Alan: proposition. Insofar as faith=trust then we will only > trust what or who we already know to be a reliable source > or witness.> > > Children must trust in their parents, or face the trust vs > mistrust issue of Erikson's first developmental stage (in > other words, without trust we human beings cannot have a > healthy growth). I trusted my parents until I was 42. Then they let me down badly. 42 years of trust was, in the event, misplaced. Result: the "healthiness" of my "growth" becomes suspect. We all must trust that this world was > created and is maintained by someone (or some others) > superior to us. Must we? Why? Most of us trust that justice will win > out somehow and somewhere, either soon in Heaven or > karmically on Earth in some future life, or here after the > ressurection, or something. The desire (or intuitive > conviction) for justice burns in the hearts of most of us. > Yet we certainly see little of it when we look at the > world around us or watch the evening news. No we don't. We see the classical descriptions of Hell on a daily basis - viz. Olklahoma this very week. 80 plus people murdered? Some kind of "mass karma" which they richly deserved owing to past sins? > Many people have faith or trust in a higher power of some > kind. The problem is, just what do we "know to be a > reliable source or witness?" Our senses? Our intuition? > Because most of us have nagging doubts about all of the > sources of information about this world, we have faith in > something that we cannot yet witness or observe directly. Please beware of sweeping generalisations. I for one do not know and am not even acquainted with "most of us." > Alan: < I have past life memories, but I do not believe > that they are necessarily memories of my own personal > experience - only that they are memories of past lives. > Spelling it out: they could just as easily be the real > memories of people who have gone before, and are long > since "dead" by our usual definition of death. Who or > where they are now is another story.> > > This is exactly the Tibetan teaching that we are each a > collection-of-others. If the subjective self doesn't > exist (i.e., the ego, soul, and spirit are all aggragates > and thus have no suchness) then how can they reincarnate? > The Tibetans answer this question by postulating a > collection-of-others, which is like saying that we are > each a monadic host, rather than a single eternal monad. > > > Jerry S. I'll but that - but only as a working hypothesis! [Retires gibbering to quiet room . . . .] Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 01:05:54 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Lucid Dreams or Just Dreams I have been studying my dreams since I was an adolescent. I have developed a technique that I have seen spoken of elsewhere as "lucid dreaming". You become so used to noticing your dreams, you begin to know your dreaming while you are dreaming. Of course this isn't everynight, but I have become adept (one needs to become careful here I know) at checking out the dream world. I have found that if you try to examine something closely in the dream world, it does strange things. My dream world is incredibly detailed. As detailed as the real world, but if you try to look at something close, like read a book. THe image jumps around and I either wake up or am distracted by its "crazy" quality and forget my self-consciousness and fall back into a deeper less reflective state. This may not have a lot to do with theosophy exactly, except I had an especially vivid and aware or lucid dream. I decided to ask someone a question in a dream while I had the chance. There was an ordinary looking lady in contemporary business dress. She seemed to be a special "healing dream entity" of some kind. I asked her what her purpose was and wanted to ask: which is primary, the dream world or the real world? Being in the dream world, I thought she would favor the dream world in some way. She replied: "we usually don't talk about such things, but your answer is: intercourse" I knew that she meant this in the meaning of conversation and communication between the dream world and real world and not sex, yet it had the connotation of establishing"intamcy" anyway. Interscourse also means to pass between as if we pass over to their side and they pass over to our side. I also felt her answer was valid in some way. I tried to think of her as a dream archetype, a Freudian mother figure, a surrealistic Daliesque fantasy figure, a healing angel - these all seemed to fit a little. Yet I rememebered how the medieval world considered dream figures to be a type of possesion by incubbi and succubi - demons that came for physical intercourese one supposes, though how a dream entity could have physical sex is a stretch. Theosophy teaches us to beware of the astral world. HPB said something to the effect that never a rose was plucked from the astral plan that the finger was no pricked by a thorn. Some believe we travel to the astral plane between the earth and moon in our dreams. What does the Kabala say on this, Alan? or the Encochian system, Jerry? The feeling I got was a confirmation that dream entities are "messagers" between the worlds - like the original angels where messengers and provide a glue between the spiritual and material realms. Whether this is just dream babble or not, I know not. You had to be there to get the feeling of import to her off- handed remark. I noticed the topic of lucid dreaming mentioned earlier. Has anyone else received a "communitcation"? Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 09:27:22 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Goddess is rising Jerry S.: >Want a prediction? I predict that the gender pendulum >will swing the other way for a few thousand years, as >matriarchy regains new ground in the West. The Goddess >is rising even as we speak. >As to theosophy, we can fit all of this into a small >spiral within the overall Arcs of Descent (where the >goddess has sway) and the Arc of Ascent (where the >god has sway). Each time the pendulum swings, it >passes through its mid-point where the two sides >are equal; a time of equality that is, unfortunately, >short lived. Ann: I've seen incidences of the "Goddess is rising" just recently. A former neighbor of mine died last month at the age of 80. He was a devout Methodist and his wake service was presided over by a female Methodist minister. Last night, I went to visit my mother before her hip surgery and the hospital chaplain came to visit. Also a woman. IMHO, I believe that the religions that have not yet admitted women to the ministry on a level with male clergy, will be forced to do so or go out of business. I would think the mid-point of the pendulum would be the time of greatest growth because that's when there would be greatest tension. Perhaps that kind of tension can only be tolerated for a short time. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:09:12 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Another view on Core Concepts I have been following the "core concept" thread with interest. I once did a study on Freud and come to some tentative conclusions that the current sciencific paradigm seems vitatlly connected to the way we describe psycho-spirituality. When I read core concept I have the impression that this image is about the hardness of reality - it definitely implies a pre-quantum view of things. Looking for a core is to look for a solid core. This "solid core" idea, especially in the realm of spirit, is anachronist and has strictly monotheist implications. What Astrea said about a constellation of ideas that are adhered to seems much more healthy and in tune with our current soon to be replaced paradigm. I don't think it helpful for any group to be without a currrent statement of living metaphors - archetypes that are alive active and relevant but to concretize them is to dogmatize and that will not serve the cause in the long run. We will be unconsciously uttering things that have absolutely no experiencial root if we focus on "core concepts" too much. When I was more orthodox I tried that idea of getting the story straight , returning to the fundaments and I feel it failed me dismally. In the past two weeks I have been writing a spiritual update for a group of us that have clustered around an image called the Watershed. In the paper I tried to walk the line between core concepts and nebulous metaphor. Since the paper is spiritually oriented, but not specifically Theosophical, I am a bit hesitant to post it here. Whatever it is it is not dogmatic so I can't imagine it being flame bait. Any feedback? What it would be offered for in this group is a beginning model of for trying to say what is moving spiritually without hammering it down. I am proof reading it so it might be a few days if the group discerns that it might be helpful. Any thoughts on this exercise? Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:24:50 -0600 From: Arthur_PattersonA@mbnet.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Goddess is rising Anne Writes: > IMHO, I believe that the religions that have not yet admitted > women to the ministry on a level with male clergy, will be forced > to do so or go out of business. > > I would think the mid-point of the pendulum would be the time of > greatest growth because that's when there would be greatest > tension. Perhaps that kind of tension can only be tolerated for > a short time. I have a different take on this it isn't completely figured out yet but when I think of the integration of the feminine within traditional religion my mind switches to Kali the Creator Destroyer. I say all the paternalistic bullesgeschite that traditional religion tries to do when they swallow radical movements. Organized religion itself, in my opinion,, appears fairly compromise and corrupted why the goddess would want to assert herself within it I don't know. Unless the goddess is interested in the sort of "status" the organizations offer. I think the goddess will rise and provide an alternative to organized religion. To build on the sand of patriarchy is dangerous. I tend to fear the moderates even more than the fundamentalists in this regard since they swallow the feminine and subtle change its wild and wonderful qualities. I suppose the bursting of the wineskins is model I follow. You don't put new wine in old skins. If you do they explode and the presence of radically mature feminists in organized religion will burst the skin I am happy to say. Just a little ranting .:) Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 12:04:21 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Keith's lucid dreams Keith Price: > Theosophy teaches us to beware of the astral world. HPB said > something to the effect that never a rose was plucked from the > astral plan that the finger was no pricked by a thorn. Ann: Another version: A snake hides behind very rose on the astral plane. My version: And every program on network television is interrupted by commercials. IMHO, network and cable television, for the most part, are reflections of the astral plane for the masses. Their "dream" life, is a world in which the good guy always wins in exactly an hour, loving families gather in sitcoms and no one is poor. > The feeling I got was a confirmation that dream entities are > "messagers" between the worlds - like the original angels where > messengers and provide a glue between the spiritual and material > realms. I read an article in Tantra magazine, once, about a man who met his spiritual teacher on the earth plane. The teacher died and the man began to see him in his dreams, which is where the teacher then held class. > I noticed the topic of lucid dreaming mentioned earlier. Has > anyone else received a "communication"? I've been told test results the day before my doctor told me about them. Question: Have Masters appeared to anyone in their dreams? - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 12:23:37 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Alan on the Psyche Alan: < How is psyche defined as atma-buddhi? and why? Psyche [Greek] can mean "mind" or "soul" or "self" or all of these. You seem to be using ego in the above comment in a _non_ Jungian sense: this could confuse some of our readers when it appears alongside the Jungian interpretation, could it not?> It is, indeed, confusing. I suppose I meant "higher psyche." Actually the psyche, as defined by Jung, would be HPB's atma- buddhi-manas-kama-prana, the lower two principles pertaining more to the physical. (Eldon, in which principle do the instincts lie? Kama would be my guess) Jung defines the psyche with a very broad brush as just about everything except the physical body; he also says it has movement forward and backward as well as inward and outward. In several places he gives the equation psyche=consciousness, but in other places includes the personal unconscious in it. But he also says it preexists and postexists the ego (which according to Jung grows and developes along with the body or 'soma') and this tends to equate it with the atma-buddhi. He does mention a higher and lower psyche, but he doesn't care for this idea; he also doesn't like the terms subconscious or superconscious. However, he does say that consciousness is rather on a scale and that "there is a lower as well as an upper threshold for psychic events" and then admits the possibility that the psyche too has upper and lower ends of a "psychic scale." (On the Nature of the Psyche). His psyche has a lot of parallels with the physical body, and the body is built on the idea of upper and lower ranges, so Jung credits ranges to the psyche as well. For this reason, I think that we can talk about a higher psyche and lower psyche and remain within a Jungian framework. I think that I was using ego in the Jungian sense of a complex, but apologise if not. BTW, Jung had little regard for theosophy, and says, among other things, that it "caters to lazy thinking" (On Psychic Energy). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 12:24:07 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Astrea > If union is achieved through a practice, who is to say it is > higher or lower. Each form of Yoga suits temperaments. I wouldn't say Karma of Yoga, by any means. > > ASTREA Touche! Actually I don't say that either, and I agree with your assessment that each form suits people with different temperaments. I was simply repeating what I had read by the so-called experts. For example in CW Vol XIV p 434, HPB says that Hatha-Yoga practitioners cannot "gain real Abhijnas (the supernatural abnormal five powers)." I studied yoga long ago, and I have forgotten many of my references, but I do recall that each school extolled their own virtues over the others. Nevertheless, many authors acknowledge that Kundalini Yoga is the steepest path (albeit the most dangeous) while Karma Yoga is the slowest (albeit the most safe). I didn't make this up. If you really want, I will hit my library and try to find quotes for you. But I do agree, that all roads up the mountain lead to the peaks, and thus you should pick the road that best suits your own temperament. There is no race. The only reason for taking a steep path is a personal one, not something that is necessarily recommended. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 20 Apr 95 12:24:48 EDT From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Keith & Dreams Keith: < I have found that if you try to examine something closely in the dream world, it does strange things.> My own experiences agree with this, Keith. Keith: < which is primary, the dream world or the real world?> I would say that both are illusory or maya. However, either seems more real relative to the other. In other words, during the waking state, the dream state seems more unreal, and vice versa (I can often recall physical events and memories while dreaming. I can also recall past dreams). If we consider divinity as REAL, and each of its expressions (the Cosmic Planes) as more unreal because deeped into spacetime, then we could say with some validity that the dream world (astral plane) is more real than the physical plane simply because it is closer to the Divine Plane. Keith: <...demons that came for physical intercourese one supposes, though how a dream entity could have physical sex is a stretch.> Sex on the astral plane is via merging bodies together rather than how it is done physically. One "feels" the other as part of oneself. Most people find that it is actually a deeper and more intimate experience than physical sex. Keith: < Some believe we travel to the astral plane between the earth and moon in our dreams. What does the Kabala say on this, Alan? or the Encochian system, Jerry?> The area from the Earth to the Moon corresponds to the region of the Watchtower of Earth, in Enochian Magic (in my system of it anyway). Personally, I feel that solar regions have a correspondence with the cosmic planes because the inner mirrors the outer and vice versa, but I do not believe that we actually _go_ to the Moon or Venus, or any of the planets. We _go_ inward rather than outward, but the inward experience has many parallels with an outward journey. Keith: Messengers are, in a sense, what they are. Your question as to the reality of dream people is exactly the same as the question that I am asked a lot: Do the Angels and other entities described in Enochian Magic really exist? (I would think that a lot of theosophists ask the same question about the many deiities that HPB mentions.) This question, like many others, cannot be answered. The answer is completely esoteric and cannot be put into words other than to say that in a way they are psychic projections, and in another way they are external entities, and in yet another way they are both. Magic takes the practical pragmatic view that we should treat them _as_if_ they were real. Doing this helps the magic to work, while disbelief assures that it won't work. Of course with dreams, if you are lucid dreaming, then you will think them to be unreal because you will know that it is _only_ a dream. But if you consider a dream to be as real as waking experience, then those folks who you meet up with will seem real. How you react depends on your worldview (many times your dreaming self has a worldview that is different from that of your waking self or ego and so you will do things in a dream that you would never do in the waking state). Keith: < You had to be there to get the feeling of import to her off- handed remark.> Right! In other words, this experience was meaningful to you. We often have meaningful experiences in our dreams that seem like jibberish after we wake up. Psychology would say that the unconscious part of our psyche is trying to tell us something. Magic would say that we had a true and valid experience on the astral plane (the astral, BTW, is no more maya than the physical - HPB's warning was given to remind us of this - astral experiences seem so meaningful and real that a lot of people consider them to be without any maya). Keith: No, but I have been lucid dreaming for years. I used this technique to eliminate nighmares which I used to have as a child all the time. Haven't had one for many years now. Whenever a dream started to get out of hand, I would step in like a movie director and stop it, and redirect the action in a more pleasant way. It worked so well, that nowdays my dreams don't even start to go offtrack (i.e., toward a nightmare orientation). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 19:09:23 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Re Astrea Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> writes: > temperaments. I was simply repeating what I had read by the > so-called experts. Yes, we all have to watch that! (And try to avoid it!) For example in CW Vol XIV p 434, HPB says > that Hatha-Yoga practitioners cannot "gain real Abhijnas (the > supernatural abnormal five powers)." She was quite anti-Hatha Yoga, but probably because it wasn't being taught in a suitable form in those days, or it was hard to find a good teacher. Her own physical condition was so appalling towards the end of her life, I have no doubt she would have benefited from some wisely undertaken asana. > others. Nevertheless, many authors acknowledge that > Kundalini Yoga is the steepest path (albeit the most > dangeous) while Karma Yoga is the slowest (albeit the most > safe). I didn't make this up. That I _can_ agree with. But...would you rather fall off a bicycle or have an accident in a jet fighter?- if you catch my drift. I think I'd rather fall off a bicycle, even if it is slower! Actually, I had a dream once where my subconscious rather amusingly painted my spiritual path as a trip in a sight-seeing bus- quite comfy really. It beats walking, but it's a lot slower than a jet! :-) If you really want, I will > hit my library and try to find quotes for you. No! No! Not references to "authority." ;-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:15:52 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Lucid Dreams or Just Dreams Dear Keith, I thought your dream lady gave you a very sensible message, namely that the most important thing is communication between the 2 worlds. It makes sense, & I don't think it's to get scared about. That spoils the whole effect of the message. If you got an incubus or something like that, I think you'd know, & you'd tell it to beat it on out of there. You're the boss, of your dreams too, if not dreaming, then after you wake up. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:35:46 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Fraternal > > Ah ha, a "Bristol Frater" ;-) > > ASTREA > Hail, Sister, Hail! :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:42:59 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Lucid Dreams or Just Dreams Seeing that you ask, Keith :), I have had a few "lucid dreams" such as you describe which were very similar in their quality and content, especially with regard to the experience of being "educated" by the experience. Once or twice they involved known persons (then passed on, or "dead") whose description I did not have at the time, but which later proved to be rather accurate. Whether such dream experiences occur between the earth and the moon I cannot confirm (!) but theoretically I can see no reason why this should not be the case. If we, as individuals, have an "aura" which extends beyond our visible physicality, why then, surely it is likely to be so for the planet. Maybe the "deceased" or discarnate entities (many human) who facilitate such intercourse actually have the potential for being present in this aura-space, which space we enter in our dream state(s), and thereby we can communicate with each other. I have since abandoned the "lucid dream" research area for contemplative or meditative approaches in which the same result can be achieved in waking consciousness. By this I mean that while in the "lucid" state and examining or listening to educational intercourse from "plane to plane" I remain reasonably aware of my actual physical surroundings as I ordinarily perceive them. A bit like being awake in the dream, except that th "dream" is awake in me. Got that? :-). Please - do not ask me how to do it! It's very hard work and takes a great deal of practice. It is also too easy to fool oneself, as I have _also_ discovered. One thing I do not think we can achieve on the net is an electronic ashram. Wanna bet someone disagrees with that last? Jerry - I my response to your suggestion re the Tibetan view, read "buy that" for "but that" :-(). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:18:30 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: lucid dreams > Question: Have Masters appeared to anyone in their dreams? > > - ann Mistress! Dion Fortune gave me just one _vital_ lesson on Kabalah. Guess that makes her a _Maggid_. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:20:55 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Jung > BTW, Jung had little regard for theosophy, and says, among > other things, that it "caters to lazy thinking" (On Psychic > Energy). > > Jerry S. Having seen some versions of theosophy, I tend to appreciate his concern! Concerning Psychic Energy, M. Esther Harding wrote a book with this very title. If you haven't already read it, it is well worth getting, if a copy can be found that is. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 12:56:29 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Lucid Dreams or Just Dreams Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> writes: > I have been studying my dreams since I was an adolescent. Me too! I have developed a > technique that I have seen spoken of elsewhere as "lucid dreaming". This technique has been most highly developed and promoted mostly by Stephen LaBerge and the Lucidity Institute in the West, although I understand there is a strong tradition of it amongst the Dzogchen school of Tibetan Buddhism as well. Most of us will be familiar with Carlos Castenada's writings on the topic. > Theosophy teaches us to beware of the astral world. HPB said > something to t effect that never a rose was plucked from the > astral plan that the finger was pricked by a thorn. There seems to be some evidence that some people can use lucid dreaming techniques to transcend what we would call the astral world and connect with experiences of a religious or philosophical nature. Some believe we travel to the astral plane between the > earth and moon in our dreams. Probably much astral "travel" doesn't involve leaving the physical body, but rather withdrawing into other realms of consciousness, traditionally associated with the Moon. > I noticed the topic of lucid dreaming mentioned earlier. Has > anyone else received a "communitcation"? Yes, from time to time. I value these communications on their own merits, especially if they withstand rational scrutiny. It is difficult to come to any definitive views on their source though. I have been starting to make my first faltering steps toward lucid dreams lately. ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:24:48 -0500 From: OSMAR DE CARVALHO Subject: Re: Music & Meditation Namaste, Astrea! > I think this is a valid tool, and certainly tried and true > amongst most monastic traditions (that i know of.) Have you heard > Hoomi chanting? (aka overtone chanting.) Developed in Mongolia > and practiced in Central Asia, it produces a shift in > consciousness very quickly indeed. David Hykes and his choir > from NY are excellent exponents of the art. > - Astrea Yes I've heard, and it is really powerful. The effect you mention I do feel when listening the CDs "Sacred Ceremonies", I and II, "Ritual Music of Tibetan Buddhi" and "Tantric Hymns & Music of Tibet", from Fortuna Records, with the Tibetan Monks of Dharamsala. They lift us to the top very quickly. David Hykes and the Harmonic Choir are the best, and my favorite, I must say. Did you know other singers or groups who work with this kind of chanting? The "Hallelujah" in the "Harmonic Meetings" album, with the overtone chanting technique, is something "epiphanic". A> Radha's approach seems very austere at times, and may not suit A> everyone. I agree with you. But I must to recognize she is a great mantra singer. Until now I never met another person who chants the "AUM" and the "GAYATRI" the way she sounds. A> Sure, why not? I find a good live performance of Beethoven's A> Ninth Symphony really does things for me! I believe nothing compares to live classic music. The "Gandarva" Devas must play a pervasive role here. This recalled me the "Note on Mantras", from the "Light of the Sanctuary", from Geoffrey Hodson, where he states: "*Mantras* saturates the physical and superphysical bodies with the thought and power of God. Eliminate all other thoughts; render the personal vehicles and consciousness working in them subservient ad responsive to thoughts of the deity and the influence of the Ego; unify all vehicles into a inter-harmonized organism, physical and superphisysical; reduce the resistance of both the personality to the Ego and the *tamas guna* to the Monad-Ego. It is like tuning the string of a musical instrument so that it produces exactly the true note on the true pitch." (p.194) A> Don't forget the Silence, though Silence is the answer. Shanti! Shanti! Shanti! Osmar *|) .. Never underestimate the power of a good cup of tea. (Picard) GLASHwave/QWK v2.12 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:24:55 -0500 From: OSMAR DE CARVALHO Subject: Re: Music & Meditation Aloha, Alan! AMB> The use of music as an aid to relaxation and the contemplative AMB> type of meditation (which I call contemplation, but some call AMB> meditation) is of course useful in its own right. Yes! You are a lucky guy because you live in the land of the great trance maker: *the bagpipe* B-)X AMB> With good wishes, Warm hugs from Brazil! Osmar *|) .. There are no atheists in foxholes. (Troi) GLASHwave/QWK v2.12 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 20:39:14 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Music & Meditation > Namaste, Astrea! Namaste! > David Hykes and the Harmonic Choir are the best, and my favorite, > I must say. Did you know other singers or groups who work with > this kind of chanting? The "Hallelujah" in the "Harmonic > Meetings" album, with the overtone chanting technique, is > something "epiphanic". They are the best known. But we have heard a group doing it here in Vienna. Actually they did a cycle of 5 songs, one for each of the elements, and one for Akash'. I have also heard it done in Mongolia (oh no! Not One of her "when I was in Mongolia" stories! :) > I agree with you. But I must to recognize she is a great mantra > singer. Until now I never met another person who chants the > "AUM" and the "GAYATRI" the way she sounds. I haven't heard her, but I'll take your word for it. there are a few other Mantra yogis hanging out in Adyar too! > This recalled me the "Note on Mantras", from the "Light of the > Sanctuary", from Geoffrey Hodson, where he states[...]: It's a pleasure to read someone else who appreciates Hodson. I think all the classical music played in Vienna definately has an effect on stabilizing the psychic atmosphere. Probably there should be more in the world. > .. Never underestimate the power of a good cup of tea. (Picard) Yes, and a Picard fan too! ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 18:30:43 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi, Alan, I just reread your post of yesterday, & looked up Ezekiel 8:14 in my St. James Bible. What you say re the Temple of Solomon having originally been built to the Goddess, & Goddess worship being thought of as an every day occurrence by the people who were weeping for Tammuz, would fit in with what my women's history book says. It took many hundreds of years to do away with the Goddess entirely, and it happened by degree. First she was the Goddess, then she was a consort, then she was a handmaiden, & etc. till finally, in the middle ages she became a witch, and had to hide. I'm not too familiar with the Bible, and the passage in Ezekiel really ashonis hed me. They sound like our modern day American religious right ...like a bunch of fanatics. Well, maybe I can see that they became incensed that these people were turning their backs to the Holiest of Holies. That just isn't done. And I suppose it's asking too much of these supposedly more primitive people to be tolerant of sun worshipers. But then you go all over town & kill everybody including women & children? Disgusting. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Apr 95 14:44:07 +1100 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Alligators LieselFD@aol.com writes: > entirely, and it happened by degree. First she was the Goddess, > then she was a consort, then she was a handmaiden, & etc. till > finally, in the middle ages she became a witch, and had to hide. Fortunately the "feminine" aspect of the Divine has remained inviolate. > people were turning their backs to the Holiest of Holies. That > just isn't done. And I suppose it's asking too much of these > supposedly more primitive people to be tolerant of sun > worshipers. But then you go all over town & kill everybody > including women & children? Disgusting. A lot of what is written in the Bible is a...woss name...an alligator... allegory, that's it! :-) ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 17:21:20 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel > Hi, Alan, > > I just reread your post of yesterday, & looked up Ezekiel 8:14 in > my St. James Bible. > > What you say re the Temple of Solomon having originally been > built to the Goddess, & Goddess worship being thought of as an > every day occurrence by the people who were weeping for Tammuz, > would fit in with what my women's history book says. It took > many hundreds of years to do away with the Goddess entirely, and > it happened by degree. First she was the Goddess, then she was a > consort, then she was a handmaiden, & etc. till finally, in the > middle ages she became a witch, and had to hide. I would be glad to have details of your book with a view to getting a copy. > I'm not too familiar with the Bible, and the passage in Ezekiel > really ashonis hed me. They sound like our modern day American > religious right ...like a bunch of fanatics. Well, maybe I can > see that they became incensed that these people were turning > their backs to the Holiest of Holies. That just isn't done. And > I suppose it's asking too much of these supposedly more primitive > people to be tolerant of sun worshipers. But then you go all > over town & kill everybody including women & children? > Disgusting. > > Liesel More than disgusting - appalling. And the Christians adopted this Jehovah-God guy with all his horrible attributes. Then they told us "He" was love! As for the Holiest of Holies in Solomon's (or any other Israelite) temple - maybe they _did_ have that, but had a different view of it? Any clues from your history book? I seem to recall uploading my "The Nazarenes" onto JEM's system, which is a serious attempt at establishing serious origins for Christianity in the "Judaism" of the day. I think you use a "get" command through the theos mail system somehow. The reason I mention it is that in doing the research I came to the conclusion that there was no such thing as "Judaism" at that time, only the followers [very diverse in approach] of the "Israelite" religious ethos based upon the Torah. The "Jews" of the New Test. would have been simply the followers of that religious ethos (but not necessarily exclusively) who actually _lived_ in Judea, hence "Judeans" or "Jews." Oh well. Peace, Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 17:30:55 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Music & Meditation > You are a lucky guy because you live in the land of the great > trance maker: *the bagpipe* > > B-)X > > > AMB> With good wishes, > > Warm hugs from Brazil! > > Osmar *|) Errr - no. I live in England, where bagpipes are not esepcially popular! Hoever, my family name is from Scotland, where they _are_ made, and therefore I love the sound of the trance-maker! Och Aye, Alan/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 19:41:57 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi, Alan, Here are some titles for women's antique history: "When God Was a Woman", Merlin Stone, Harcourt Brace, 1976 (originally published in Great Britain unter the title "The Paradise Papers" by Virago Ltd. in association with Quartet Books Ltd.). I think that's the best known one. "Priestesses", Norma Lorre Goodrich. Softcover 1990, Harper Collins, hardcover 1989. That looks like the most detailed one to me of the books I have. It has the account of the Celtic (Gallic) priestesses & the Romans at the end. "Goddess, Mother of Living Nature", Adele Getty, 1990 Thames & Hudson, London, NY. This is my favorite, because it's very well illustrated, also because she takes a more anthropological view. I didn't quite understand your question re the Holiest of Holies. I think "They" are right. God is Love. Only killing & maiming is Love turned inside out. I have no idea as to what the Jews were called in Biblical times. I had a couple of years of religion classes in Germany, where the religious instructions were given right in school. I seem to remember that each tribe was called by its name, & that the name "Jew" came from the tribe of Judah, but it's vague, like round about 3rd grade. Namaste Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 01:11:29 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Dear Liesel, Thanks for the book info. I was suggesting re the Holiest of Holies that the users of the Temple at the time may have _had_ one in there, but viewed it in a different (and now unknown) manner from later orthodoxy. Yes, "Jew" relates directly to "Judah" and "Judah" to "Judea." In the Greek text of the New T. the "Jews" are called "Judeans" in the Greek. "Jew" is the anglicized word. In German it is Jude, pronounced (as I expect you know!) "Juda" - has a familar ring! Do you know any Yiddish? YIddish theosophy ... hmmm Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 19:29:55 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi, Alan, My Arieh Kaplan Bible has a diagram of an ancient temple. It seems a Jewish (or other nomenclature) temple has always had a Holy of Holies. In the very old days, it held the Host. Nowadays, it holds all the Torahs. If it held the Host, the 10 commandments, & the communications mechanism to God, it would stand to reason that you didn't turn your back on it then either. I know a few words of Yiddish. You pick them up around Jewish people in this country, most of whose ancestors came from Russia & Poland.. German Jews didn't speak Yiddish. They used a few select Hebrew words, Germanized, but not Yiddish. OK Meschuggener? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 01:01:54 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi Liesel, Oy veh! Bei mir bist du schon :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 19:29:55 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi, Alan, My Arieh Kaplan Bible has a diagram of an ancient temple. It seems a Jewish (or other nomenclature) temple has always had a Holy of Holies. In the very old days, it held the Host. Nowadays, it holds all the Torahs. If it held the Host, the 10 commandments, & the communications mechanism to God, it would stand to reason that you didn't turn your back on it then either. I know a few words of Yiddish. You pick them up around Jewish people in this country, most of whose ancestors came from Russia & Poland.. German Jews didn't speak Yiddish. They used a few select Hebrew words, Germanized, but not Yiddish. OK Meschuggener? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 01:01:54 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Alan Bain - Ezekiel Hi Liesel, Oy veh! Bei mir bist du schon :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 24 Apr 95 20:22:26 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Caring for Tibetan Bells My husband wants know how to care for Tibetan bells. He has a metal one purchased from Quest Book Store that appears to be copper or brass. Also, does anyone know of any videos how to play them. Thank you, - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 26 Apr 95 00:20:46 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories I am sure we are all appaled, saddened and maddened (driven a little crazy and made very angry) by the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma. I think people were shocked at first, but now conspiracy theories are being cast about on all sides. I refer to the term "right wing" terrorists being used by the press and President Clinton blaming unidentified radio talk show hosts. His staff today said Pres. Clinton was NOT referring to Rush Limbaugh, but only because almost everybody thought he was. I have many thoughts that are confused at this time, but I think it is very important to make clear that many fundamentalist Christians really believe that theosophy is a deliberate conspiracy at creating a NEW WORLD ORDER (their term) with one government and one "occult" (demonic for them) religion. You may think I'm crazy by spreading more unecessary paranoia in an already terrorized world, but I listen to talk radio almost everyday, specifically Marlon Mattox on Christian radio and I cannot count the references and even whole shows on the occult conspiracy SUPPOSEDLY created by Blavatsky and which continues today as such things as the environmental movement, Earth Day (Gaia, don't you know), mediation in schools and Al Gore's book- not to mention the U.N. and the Council on Foreign Relation ad nauseum. I mentioned this before and people ignored it, but I felt I should bring it up again because one of the commentators about the Oklahoma incident said that he monitored new age and theosophical groups on internet. We may laugh at them, but they are out there and they are really dangerous nuts. The Oklahoma incident is going to be used by everbody for some political agenda. That is very sad, but seems unfortunately to be true. These people really believe their is a political wing to the theosophical movement begun (or continued from Egytpian? times) as the illuminati in 17th century aristocratic circles and which continues today. They see the movement as a strange combination of ancient wisdom combined with high tech computer technology. I could be wrong. Maybe you all have never initiated me to the real purpose of theosophy (sad joke) to form a militia at Krotona. If I saw something like that I would know it would be a dream and not a lucid one by a long shot. I can believe a lot about theosophists, but not that they are pulling the strings of some strange apocalyptic end-times type conspiracy, but this is what these people seem to claim. I wish one of them would have the guts to send us an e-mail to let us know they are out there, but I know it will not happen and for the good reason that I have found most theosophists to be mostly harmless eggheads (of which I am probably one) and about as far from a gun toting militia man as you can get. However K. Paul Johnson's recent book (which I have only scanned) brings up the old stories of Blavatsky being a Russian spy and interferring in the Turkish war that may have led to World War I. Also the notion of the Masters as controlling the INNER world government is taken very seriously by many and could lead to a type of inflation that we have a special connection to the "real" (the Christians would say demonic or anti-Christ ) rulers of the world that control world events from some invisible Shambala or Gobi Desert outpost of some kind and work through the world bank, the federal reserve system and of course, the liberal press. Their view on a more sophisticated level is that Blavatsky and her Masters have created an intelligensia in a kind of trance, a kind of "occult imprisonment" of the type mentioned in K. Paul's book. The Rockerfellers, Hollywood cool guys and girls, and the academics and technocrats everywhere are operating in an type of hypnosis that leads to dreaded liberalism, government control, FBI surrvelience, the erosion of the family and crime large and small. Unfortunately political correctness and such intellectual dishonesty as evidenced by Clinton's retracted remark may give them some credence. Any ideas on conspircies right or left - up or down? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 26 Apr 95 12:46:28 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Conspiracies Keith Price: > I have many thoughts that are confused at this time, but I think > it is very important to make clear that many fundamentalist > Christians really believe that theosophy is a deliberate > conspiracy at creating a NEW WORLD ORDER (their term) with one > government and one "occult" (demonic for them) religion. > > I mentioned this before and people ignored it, but I felt I > should bring it up again because one of the commentators about > the Oklahoma incident said that he monitored new age and > theosophical groups on internet. We may laugh at them, but they > are out there and they are really dangerous nuts. Ann: Back in the early eighties, I read some fundamentalist material that was highly derogatory and untruthful about The Society and David Spangler, a man closely connected with Findhorn. I don't remember exactly what it said, but it pretty close to demonic accusations. I became concerned that some zealous follower would take up arms and plug somebody, thinking he was doing good. My husband urged me to inform people connected with these groups and these were my experiences. A woman connected to the Findhorn in America listened to me, then asked, "What are YOU so frightened about?" The issue was being thrown back in my lap, suggesting that my reaction of fear and anxiety was amiss. My call to the Society was greeted with this: "That stuff happens all the time. We've had Christian fundamentalists come to Olcott, expecting to find evidence of Satan worship. We let them walk around and when they don't find anything, they just leave." It was like an invisible wall had gone up around these groups. I don't know if this technique will always protect them from physical attacks or verbal slurs, but it certainly is effective in the sense that the aggressor has nothing to push against. No negativity for someone to react to. Divert the energy and keep it going in another direction, preferably out the back door. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 00:10:56 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories [Keith P.] writes: > I have many thoughts that are confused at this time, but I think it is very important to make clear that many fundamentalist Christians really believe that theosophy is a deliberate conspiracy at creating a NEW WORLD ORDER (their term) with one government and one "occult" (demonic for them) religion. Theosophy is not a religion. If the 1975 NY founders' objects are quoted, then the nearest to this is "the study of _comparative_ religion" [my emphasis]. > I mentioned this before and people ignored it, but I felt I should bring it up again because one of the commentators about the Oklahoma incident said that he monitored new age and theosophical groups on internet. We may laugh at them, but they are out there and they are really dangerous nuts. Unfortunately, the TS has in a sense encouraged the formation of loony "fringe" type cults, some of whom may well _be_ dangerous nuts. Hitler and his cronies are known to have had a serious interest and belief in a sort of "occultism." The Brit. govt. in WWII employed the astrologer Louis de Wohl [who was also a devout Roman Catholic, BTW] solely in order to determine what he thought Hitler's astrologer(s) would be telling Hitler - see ~Stars of War and Peace~ by de Wohl. > ... the notion of the Masters as controlling the INNER world government is taken very seriously by many and could lead to a type of inflation that we have a special connection to the "real" (the Christians would say demonic or anti-Christ ) rulers of the world In view of the fact that Jesus effectively casts Satan in the role of "Prince of this world" [according to the gospel accounts] then they would probably base their case on this kind of statement. Unfortunately, there IS a suggestion of an "Inner World Government" in some theosophical writings, which would fuel just such conspiracy theories. Some people of a theosophical persuasion I have met in the past (whether TS members or not I cannot now say) have firmly believed in the Inner World Govt. notion. You are right to be concerned Keith. If I were the FBI, _I_ would monitor theosophical stuff on the net - and also fundamentalist Christian material. If theosophical folk continue to spell magic with an extra "k" and appear to condone the practices of Aleister Crowley and others of his ilk, then they pile faggots upon the pyre that the fundamentalist nuts are perparing for all of us. I can do little more than quote from a Christian source [Paul]: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are expedient." Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 11:05:51 -0500 From: waldo@news1.mnsinc.com (Robin Richards) Subject: Request for info All, I have recently subscribed to this list in order to find out more about Theosophy. Can anyone recommend some basic materials so that I can gain a better understanding of the history of Theosophy as well as how it is put into practice in these modern times? Please feel free to reply privately so as not to burden others with information they already know. Thanks Robin Richards Robin P.D. Richards (waldo@mnsinc.com) Shenandoah Valley, VA (RPRichards@AOL.com) USA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 12:52:04 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs and Astrology Astera writes: > I like it! I think I must be a nerd (INTJ in Myers-Briggs > personality test,) > your favorite > ASTEROID Is anyone aware of books, articles, etc. that relate these two systems. It always amuses me to here my 'academic' friends talking glibly about their Myers-Briggs personality type, but think astrology is a total joke. From what little I know of astrology and even less of the Myers-Briggs each can offer some interesting insights into how we operate in the world. Lewis llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) From: MGRAYE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Read the lastest issue of *The Smithsonian* magazine Maybe everyone already knows about this but I just found out and thought I would share it on the Internet. In the May, 1995 issue of *The Smithsonian* is an article on H.P. Blavatsky and Henry S. Olcott. The article is entitled "A Spirited Story of the Psychic and the Colonel" by Edward Hower. The article appears on pp. 111- 127. I haven't read the article yet. I should have a copy in about 1 hour. I don't know if the article is skeptical, positive or what. But hopeful some of you out there in the Theosophical Internet world will find a copy of this issue. Will sign off for now. Thurs, April 27, 1995, 2 pm Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 18:25:39 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Conspiracies Re fundamentalists, I'm not especially afraid of fanatics as a Theosophist, maybe because I've experienced fanatics as a Jew & that's much more threatening to me. I don't know what you can do about fanatics, except stay away from them. If they walk around at Olcott looking for the devil, & then are satisfied that there are no devils at Olcott, that's still being fairly reasonable, since someone like that can be persuaded somewhat, namely that there are no devils at Olcott. If they come with a truck load of fertilizer & fuel oil, look out! You can't argue with that kind. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 18:58:58 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories Scaredy cat! If you're going to go around thinking you have to defend what you believe in from every nut on the face of the earth, all you'll end up doing is going around excusing yourself for what you believe in over & over again. Why not just believe what you believe, & if you have to fight over it, fight over it. My cusin Eric got a broken nose in 4th grade, because his grandfather was Jewish. Eric didn't even believe in being Jewish anymore. He'd been brought up Unitarian. If it comes to you, you battle it out as best you can. If it doesn't come to you, you leave it alone. But you can't run around scared your whole life long. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:17:10 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Request for info Dear Robin, A good book to get the basic Theosophical ideas from is "Ancient Wisdom, Modern Insight", by Shirley Nicholson, who used to be the chief editor of the Theosophical Publishing House, & is now the directrice of the Krotona Institute of Theosophy. You can get it from the Theosophical Publishing House 1-800-669-9425. They take major credit cards. Or you can write them at Box 270, Wheaton Ill, 60189. My 1993 catalogue lists it at $6.75. It may have gone up a few Dollars in the meantime. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 23:04:16 -0500 (EST) From: John Mead Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories > Jewish. Eric didn't even believe in being Jewish anymore. He'd > been brought up Unitarian. If it comes to you, you battle it out > as best you can. If it we ended up joining the UU church; it is the only one we found we could "grow" with. (i.e. no dogma). > doesn't come to you, you leave it alone. But you can't run > around scared your whole life long. We have one whacko here in charlotte (Joe Chambers) who has appeared on Radio news-talk in most US cities. He is really scary. I've noticed a very strong movement in the last decade which has been growing DRAMATICALLY. I would wager that in Charlotte (a LIBERAL stonghold in NC) that ~20% of the people agree with these distortions. current topics which he/they claim(s) contain satanic subliminal messages and influences: 1: The Lion King 2: Barney (the PBS children's dinosaur) 3: Mighty Morphin Rangers 4: Wizard of Oz 5: Masonry (Includes other "sects", now defunct, like Illuminati) 6: Unitarian Universalism 7: Star Trek 8: Proctor and Gamble (the Company) 9: The United Nations 10: International Monetary Fund 11: Bahai's 12: Evolutionism 13: Equal Rights Amendment 14: MultiCulturalism 15: Psychiatry 16: anything remotely "New Age" (Astrology, I-Ching, etc.) 17: Art (unless it has a Christian Theme) ... the list is endless. About the only thing I can suggest is to let the energy flow through, disperse, and die a natural death. What I find amazing is that about 1/3+ of the Southern Baptists are Masons. and yet the Southern Baptists (in formal convention) have denounced it it as anti-christian. Many Masons in my lodge are fundamentalists!!?? it is really weird. oh well. peace - john mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 21:17:08 -0700 From: toddkatz@ix.netcom.com (Todd Katz) Subject: get me outta here how to I unsubscribe to this list? It was easy enough to subscribe, so how to I get off? Thanks, -- tk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 28 Apr 95 10:20:25 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Meade's conspiracies J. Meade: > current topics which he/they claim(s) contain satanic subliminal > messages and influences: 2: Barney (the PBS children's dinosaur) Ann: Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of purple dinosaurs? That " I Iove you" stuff can be pretty deceiving. I'm waiting for the Ban the Barney movement. Get rid of those lunch boxes, backpacks and baby bibs displaying that lovable prehistoric face. Next stop, Jurassic Park! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 00:39:11 GMT From: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories > Scaredy cat! > > If you're going to go around thinking you have to defend what you > believe in from every nut on the face of the earth, all you'll > end up doing is going around excusing yourself for what you > believe in over & over again. Why not just believe what you > believe, & if you have to fight over it, fight over it. My cusin > Eric got a broken nose in 4th grade, because his grandfather was > Jewish. Eric didn't even believe in being Jewish anymore. He'd > been brought up Unitarian. If it comes to you, you battle it out > as best you can. If it doesn't come to you, you leave it alone. > But you can't run around scared your whole life long. > > Liesel Seems like one definition of Karma - or is it Dharma? :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 16:34:31 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories re fundamentalist Masons: They got it made either way. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 20:05:48 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Ideas on Conspiracy Theories This is Lewis: I found John's list extremely interesting and thought of a similar people and events in our area. Maybe we should compile (or at least share) this kind of information on this list. It may be that the monitors could become the monitorees! Wouldn't that be fun. We have a county commissioner, Jimmy Echols, who recently said he could not support the public libraries budget request because the library had bought a copy of "Women on Top" by Nancy Friday, a well know and popular fiction writer. We have a state representative, James Mills, who served as the youth director of a large Baptist church before his election...he's in his 20's and has had no other experience that I know of. His election was the result of a lot of voter registration at his church and his last name being the same as a very popular president of the local community college...people thought he was a son or relative. Both of these politicians have been quest on local talk radio shows denouncing the library. Three of five of our county commissioners have been elected by the christian right in the community. They have in turn appointed people to the library board who recently voted to start all library board meetings with a prayer. That wouldn't be so bad if they would support the library in city whose population has grown dramtically in the past 10 years and will soon be the host of an Olypmic event! If there is a conspiracy, I say it is by the religious right to inflict their opinions and beliefs on the rest of us! llucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 20:11:04 -0400 From: "Lewis Lucas" Subject: Re: Read the lastest issue of *The Smithsonian* magazine Daniel wrote: > Maybe everyone already knows about this but I just found out and > thought I would share it on the Internet. > > In the May, 1995 issue of *The Smithsonian* is an article on H.P. > Blavatsky and Henry S. Olcott. The article is entitled "A > Spirited Story of the Psychic and the Colonel" by Edward Hower. > The article appears on pp. 111- 127. I haven't read the article > yet. I should have a copy in about 1 hour. I don't know if the > article is skeptical, positive or what. But hopeful some of you > out there in the Theosophical Internet world will find a copy of > this issue. No, I hadn't heard. THANKS! Lewisllucas@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 23:50:01 -0600 From: taliesin@magic.mb.ca (Arthur Paul Patterson) Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs and Astrology Lewis Writes: > It always amuses me to here my 'academic' friends talking glibly > about their Myers-Briggs personality type, but think astrology is > a total joke. From what little I know of astrology and even less > of the Myers-Briggs each can offer some interesting insights into > how we operate in the world. I don't know whether there has been much dialogue between the MBriggs and the Astrology crowd but I have been humoured by academes, as you are. It is as if they don't take thinks lightly or seriously enough. It is wonderful what you can find shunted away in some occult corner that is really practical and helpful and of service to humanity. I have taken training courses in MBTI in Albequereque and other places and have noticed that many, but not all, take this paradigm as if it were literally true and not just a metaphor for attempt to see in a mirror darkly. Typology has a ancient occult history and if those who criticize astrology ought to actually read some of Jung's admiration for alchemy and other such subjects instead of rushing to apply his theories willy nilly to whoever and whatever they come across. There is a lot to Myers Briggs but the biggest problem is that those who desire a monopoly on truth try to market it in such a manner as to exclude other ways of viewing reality. It is sad that literalism and fundamentalism are so wide spread and not only in the religious right but in the psychological left as well. Art From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 29 Apr 95 10:17:15 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: A Little of Both Much of the polarization about right and left, Christians and unity thinkers (theosophists, Unitarians, new agers, Buddhists), karma or chaos, science or religion is still with us long after Blavatsky wrote her synthesis in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. One can look at evolution as a process whereby the tension of opposites is resolved temporarily in a new higher, but only temporary, synthetic new form. All the talk about the right and the left only applies to today's politics. What was liberal before, freeing the slaves but de facto segregation, is now quite conservative. The insight Blavatsky had along with many others included that fact that modern science (particularly evolution) and religion (particularly Christianinty) were both one-sided. Science only saw a need to measure and control the outside, Christianiny sought to see energy and truth as coming from a transcendent, but documented system (the Bible), to control the inside (men's minds). She offered a synthesis in a new or at least redocumented but OPEN system of thought that allowed for both spiritual and scientific truth. Much of the SD is not warm fuzzy "why can't we all just get along" but power driven polemics, sometimes quite vitriolic (hateful). The evolutionary system seems to require the tension of opposites as a source of energy both in the physical world and the psychic or psychological world (not to mention the spiritual). Without the devil, God would have nothing to do and we would probably all be board (or in Eden or Nirvana). Of course, God, the devil, Eden, Nirvana are not physical entities, but symbols, archetype, concepts... but not JUST concepts. The power of idea new and old, can blow up a building (as seen in Oklahoma) with the help of a little explosive. Hegel's ideas where in the air at the time and I wish HPB would have given him more space and less to Haeckel and other now lesser lights. She was obviously influenced by his thought. Maybe Hegel, because he was used by Marx, seems less talked about today. But his insights about matter and life (spirit) evolving slowly into higher and higher SPIRIT is a concept worth reexamining. Someone mentioned that Jung said that theosophy was for lazy thinkers. I was thinking about his ideas about taking Eastern temples by storm etc and thought that if we alway think that the Masters are in control, how is that different from Jesus is in control and the ANSWER etc? If Blavatsky said it all, how is that different from The Bible said it all. Coming to grips with the chaos in the world, particularly the modern world that is so highly organized and so easily disorganized (OK and terrorism) challenges us to do more than meditate and grow spiritual. Oh no, almost sound like Rush et al. No, I am not advocating activism, necesarrily, and of course NOT terrorism, but a willingness to see the other side. If this could be modeled more by both the President, Gingrich, talk show hosts etc., it might be a kinder gentler world instead of escalating paranoia. (I'm not really a fraidy cat, Liesel, I'm just AWAKE, I hope). I just saw the movie FORREST GUMP, and was struck by the little discussed main theme that this less-than-fully-intelligent (academically impaired, but not life impaired :) ) man comes to - that it isn't destiny (read: Karma) and it isn't accident (read: Chaos) but a little of both. Those that see Karma as the reason for everything haven't looked hard enough (IMHO) . For as it is so eloquently stated : SHIT (read: CHAOS) HAPPENS! Brother, does it! Yet it can also be said: MIRACLES HAPPEN or maybe even JUSICE HAPPENS. They are all valid. Maybe the right and the left should just get together and shake hands and they do from time to time, but then it's back to the old tension of opposite thing and so it will always be. The endless cycles and wheels of karma role on, and I have tried the world negating, sitting around in silent meditation, praying for world, vegetarian, peace thing and it may do some good, but I'm alway hungry for a hamburger, a good argument and a little low life excitement after about three day of that. In this world, I personally need a little of both, and best wishes to those that don't. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 29 Apr 95 10:58:41 EDT From: Keith Price <74024.3352@compuserve.com> Subject: Mahatma letters??? What happened to the discussion of the Mahatma Letters? After that last post I realized that my thing is trying to apply what I know about theosophy to my life and current events etc., yet many are more interested in historical reflection, more "core concept" perspectives. I have begun to be familiar with internet now, WWW etc, and can see how the glut of information and options leads one (me) to a kind of shallow consumerism approach sometimes. There are so many groups and options, that it is impossible to be everywhere deeply, richly, holistically. In fact, after being gone myself for awhile, I wonder why postings have dropped recently. In short, the internet style on the bulletin boards often approaches graffiti more that scholarship. I think this may be good in some ways, bad in others. I feel more like I am at dinner conversation, a la MY DINNER WITH ANDRE or something, than standing before a boss, a teacher, a class etc. But maybe newcomers are disappointed by not LEARNING theosophy here (I'm not sure they could). Also I am not really clear about the differenc between the usenet and what we are on vnet (?), I assume that people have to subscribe and unsubscirbe. I tried to join from a menu on usenet and WWW and couldn't. Are we too hard to find for a net surfer? I was told BTW that headquaters after showing brief hope, has been very unimpressed by theos-l and it goes unread or they are just too busy with other things for the numerous posts etc. So be it, who wants the teachers at the lunch room table anyway, or may be they should try being just one of the kids sometimes? :+) Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 29 Apr 95 23:17:12 EDT From: "Ann E. Bermingham" <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Letters? Keith: > I have begun to be familiar with internet now, WWW etc., and can > see how the glut of information and options leads one (me) to a > kind of shallow consumerism approach sometimes. There are so > many groups and options, that it is impossible to be everywhere > deeply, richly, holistically. One of my favorite shallow services on Compuserve is the soap opera news and daily episode summaries. Talk about seeing karma in action! And the behind the scenes peeks give me an insight into the principles of reincarnation. I think even the shallow stuff can sometimes be a doorway to wisdom. But, yes, all the info can be overwhelming. A friend of mine subscribes to an astrology news group and she gets about a hundred messages a day. Too much for her to keep up with. > I think this may be good in some ways, bad in others. I feel > more like I am at dinner conversation, a la MY DINNER WITH ANDRE > or something, than standing before a boss, a teacher, a class > etc. But maybe newcomers are disappointed by not LEARNING > theosophy here (I'm not sure they could). What's so bad with having dinner with Dr. Bain, Jerry, Rubin, Astrea, Leisel or K. Paul? I was starving for conversation about theosophy and I'm grateful these people are around. I think if we wanted to start a newcomers-to-theosophy group, it would have to be another list that would have someone as focalizer. > Also I am not really clear about the difference between the > usenet and what we are on vnet (?), I assume that people have to > subscribe and unsubscribe. I tried to join from a menu on usenet > and WWW and couldn't. Are we too hard to find for a net surfer? Usenet is a series of news groups which can be accessed through the Internet using any number of news readers. Theos-l is an automated mailing list that distributes messages you send to it to all who are on its list. So any program that can manipulate Internet mail can communicate with theos-l. To learn about theos-l, send an Internet mail message to listserv@vnet.net with anything you want in the subject header and the single word "HELP" in the body of the message. You can learn all about list servers that way. > I was told BTW that headquarters after showing brief hope, has > been very unimpressed by theos-l and it goes unread or they are > just too busy with other things for the numerous posts etc. My HQ sources tell me that theos-l has improved with age. Also, the posts are printed out, then edited to facilitate quick reading. > So be it, who wants the teachers at the lunchroom table anyway, > or may be they should try being just one of the kids sometimes? > :+) Besides, who's going to dare tell a bunch of independent and feisty theosophists what to do? :-) - ann From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 12:08:21 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Mahatma letters??? Dear Keith, First off, people in Wheaton are not too busy to look at theos-l. I've heard some rather nice comments from there recently. What happened to the Mahatma letters is that for about a month now, I've been so weak from bronchitis that I've not been able to do much besides eat & sleep, & comment briefly on the theos-l e-mail. I haven't had the strength to copy off more Mahatma letter, and Eldon isn't quite ready yet to put the whole thing into theos-l, & in the meantime nobody has taken up the slack. Gives us another week, & we'll be back on track. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 13:04:25 -0600 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: What should we fear? Greetings... Well, and so some Christian sects think we Theosophists are the root of evil in the modern world ... tools of Satan? Well, perhaps we ought to thank them, as they are probably the only damn people left who actually believe that Theosophy *is* having any substantive effect on the world. Doesn't it seem as though if an organization holds, as a primary purpose, the formation of a nucleus for a "universal" family of humanity, that it is utter apathy and indifference on the part of said humanity that is far more of a thing to fear than a bit of Christian childishness? In a world full of various religions, governments, organizations and individuals who have deeply vested interests (whether through ingnorance or calculated intent) in seperatism, shouldn't we be in a helluva lot *more* trouble than we are currently in? Our First Object, *if we were actually bringing it to life*, would be the single most deeply threatening idea in the world to large numbers of individuals and groups who currently hold power on earth. I wish it *did* require courage to be a Theosophist, that governments *were* deeply suspicious of what we were up to, that there actually *was* a very real fear of seperatist sects ... as was the case with HPB & HSO. Alas, the only thing government agents and Christian infiltrators would have to fear from us is that they would be bored to death before they could get their reports filed. The best way to respond to those few who bother to attack us is probably just to hand them the American Theosophist ... they'll quickly go away convinced that we pose no threat to any established order whatsoever. The fact that fundamentalists can visit Headquarters and go away with their minds at ease is *not* something we can be proud of, but in fact is a symptom our most profound failure. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 18:10:59 -0400 From: LieselFD@aol.com Subject: Re: Letters? Me too. I enjoy talking back & forth with people on theos-l Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 30 Apr 95 20:52:09 EDT From: Chuck Bermingham <72723.2375@compuserve.com> Subject: Smithsonian magazine praises Olcott In the May issue of the Smithsonian magazine, there is an article entitled "When Colonel Olcott met Madame Blavatsky" by Edward Hower. The great pictures, including one of Master Morya, are worth the price of the magazine alone ($3). But I thought it strange that they included a color photograph of Shirley MacLaine and sort of referred to her as a modern version of HPB. The Masters Revealed by K. Paul Johnson is mentioned and the article seems to be a historical view of Olcott as a man who was transformed by Theosophy and did much good all over the world. HPB is portrayed as a flamboyant gypsy who got her comedown when Emma Coulomb supposedly exposed her and the Society for Psychical Reserach judged her an impostor. The writer seems to lay down these facts without making any judgement of HPB, citing that Theosophists "passionately deny it" and going on to praise her for her books. Those of you on theos-l who have better education in Theosophical history might have some other comments or criticisms of this article. - ann