From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 01:20:05 -0800 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Theosophy; Martin Arthur Patterson and Liesel F. Deutsch. I only skipped a day, and already several messages behind. I don't know if I'll be able to keep us at this pace. LD> Hope you don't mind if I put in a few phrases here & there. If you 2 guys would rather talk to each other, please inform, & I'll butt outsky. No problem with me either. As I said, if ten people join this conversation, well have at least ten different view points. More grist for the mill. AP> The problem that the Protestant sectarian groups, at least, had was that the spirit was so important to them that the body and its embodiment were denied in the name of mortification of the flesh. This is the putting to death of the flesh. This concept however does seem to come up in some of the material in the Voice. I will be writing about that later but for now I see that in Blavatsky there appears to be a rejection of the life of the senses in preference to a life of the spirit. I understand the value of this since embodiment can and has lead to a sort of entombment- ie prison house of the soul idea. But there is something about this emphasis, where found in the East or in Gnoticism, that refuses to honor actual existence and see nature as sacramental. Like I said I will try to spell this out later. Keep in mind that the ~Voice~ was not written by H.P.B., but is a translation of what is essentially a training manual for chelas in the Chinese Buddhist schools. These chelas lived a monastic life of a type that would be unrealistic to duplicate here. As these chelas advanced the became even more insulated. I think HPB published this book to give those members of the TS an idea of the sacrifices they would have to make if they were to tread the path of her teachers (the Masters). But on the other hand, it is a statement of the nature of the spiritual path (yes, in Eastern metaphors), and what Theosophy is about at its very heart. LD> Also, one tries to achieve a more spiritual path not only for a beautiful hereafter, but also to achieve a more fulfilling life in this body, for oneself & for others. Speaking of suffering, it took me a very long time to find out that meditating was suppposed to be a joyful experience. I was so tangled up in German ideas that I thought all religious quests were realized through suffering. Perhaps your German ideas aren't so far off after all. It seems to be human nature that we learn fastest by suffering the consequences of our mistakes. AP> There are many ways of accounting for the spread of a spirituality. Joseph Campbell boils them down to dispersion or migration or the collective unconsciousness that links all people right now, at least today, I favor the fact that we as human beings have the same archetypal structure built into the physiciality of our psyche and that we fill those potentiality creating patterns with cultural artifacts. If this theory is so then it is not surprizing that Blavatsky found a common thread. C. G. Jung has been the most helpful to me in understanding this. Perhaps Blavatsky is looking at the same phenomonen with a different set of metaphors. Perhaps this is too psychologizing or reductionistic, I would like to hear what others think about this. Campbell of course, ultimately got the Collective Uns. idea from Jung. Jung was very closely involved with Theosophy (though he didn't like most theosophists very much), and resonated very closely with the core teachings. The collective uns. idea is clearly stated in HPB's ~The Secret Doctrine.~ I'm not suggesting that Jung got the idea from HPB (though it is quite possible), but that the idea predates Jung, and is part of the body of theosophical teachings. AP> This is why I am striving to develop a theology or hermeneutic of experience rather than a hermeneutic of words. Word are metaphors for direct experience and as such can not be relied on to carry us. Interesting. Or to put it into semiotic jargon, you are trying to get past the signifiers to reach the signified. But each signifier creates more signifieds, thus creating signifying chains. In semiotics, this symbolization works by both metaphor and metonymy. The trick is to find your way back to the primordial signifier. Taking this point of view, all "dogma" is indeed "metaphor," but each metaphor is a signifier for a deeper reality that is not accessible through language. Or to put it in HPB's terminology, until we get beyond the limitations of our earthly type of perceptions, we will have to be satisfied with relative truths. Deeper truths require a deeper state of consciousness. Jerry Hejka-Ekins Martin Euser, I'm interested in Theosophy and: science; Sacred Geometry; and astrology from among the list you mentioned. I'm not a expert, but interested in discussing these. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:37:37 -0600 (CST) From: Arthur Patterson Subject: The Critical Path Jerry, AP 1> Thank you for your insightful response. I can imagine no better way into exploring a new path but to be in dialogue with both you and Liesel. The pace is bound to slow down. I still haven't written my first impressions on Silence but I have read it several times and right now I am putting the chinese or sanskrit terms into english in the margin of the text. I think the publisher should put the notes as end notes. My impressions will come but I am in no rush. At least about this. > I only skipped a day, and already several messages behind. > I don't know if I'll be able to keep us at this pace. Text snipped. > AP> The problem that the Protestant sectarian groups, at least, > had was that the spirit was so important to them that the body > and its embodiment were denied in the name of mortification of > the flesh. This is the putting to death of the flesh. This > concept however does seem to come up in some of the material in > the Voice. I will be writing about that later but for now I see > that in Blavatsky there appears to be a rejection of the life of > the senses in preference to a life of the spirit. I understand > the value of this since embodiment can and has lead to a sort of > entombment- ie prison house of the soul idea. But there is > something about this emphasis, where found in the East or in > Gnoticism, that refuses to honor actual existence and see nature > as sacramental. Like I said I will try to spell this out later. > > Keep in mind that the ~Voice~ was not written by H.P.B., but > is a translation of what is essentially a training manual for > chelas in the Chinese Buddhist schools. These chelas lived a > monastic life of a type that would be unrealistic to duplicate > here. As these chelas advanced the became even more insulated. > I think HPB published this book to give those members of the TS > an idea of the sacrifices they would have to make if they were to > tread the path of her teachers (the Masters). But on the other > hand, it is a statement of the nature of the spiritual path (yes, > in Eastern metaphors), and what Theosophy is about at its very > heart. > AP 2 >My training and habit of doing critical work on texts is showing up here. I will tell you what I am up to. I know that BHP is claiming to be translating Chinese Tibetian material but I think that translation is a more subjective matter than what first meets the eyes. If you add to that the real possibility that BHP wrote in a altered state of consciousness through an inner Teacher, which I think is not uncommon for her to assert, then we are drifting considerably from the idea that this is a strictly "literal translation" of the Books of Dzyan. I have been reading Boris De Zirkoff on the "Sources of Secret Doctrine". This is found in an anthology by Virgina Hanson. About that Eastern flavor. I am by no means familiar with a lot of Eastern thought beyond intro courses in comparitive religion but I have read and expreienced that the Western psyche is on another track. I will give my HO as to what I think the central difference is. The East for all its use of images is striving for an Apophatic Spirituality, that is an imageless spirituality where the distinction between the One and the Many is eradicated. The West seems to be striving for relationship between the One and the many through a kataphatic spirituality, a spirituality of images. The greatest example of this in my estimate is Dante The Divine Comedy. While appreciating the Eastern value of neti neti, that is not knowing, I am much more at home with the West. Where is HPB in all of this. She is living on the dividing line between both being a Russian. Just some scattered thoughts on this but these are the rattlings in my brain. > > LD> Also, one tries to achieve a more spiritual path not only for > a beautiful hereafter, but also to achieve a more fulfilling > life in this body, for oneself & for others. Speaking of > suffering, it took me a very long time to find out that > meditating was suppposed to be a joyful experience. I was so > tangled up in German ideas that I thought all religious quests > were realized through suffering. > > Perhaps your German ideas aren't so far off after all. It > seems to be human nature that we learn fastest by suffering the > consequences of our mistakes. > > > AP> There are many ways of accounting for the spread of a > spirituality. Joseph Campbell boils them down to dispersion or > migration or the collective unconsciousness that links all > people right now, at least today, I favor the fact that we as > human beings have the same archetypal structure built into the > physiciality of our psyche and that we fill those potentiality > creating patterns with cultural artifacts. If this theory is so > then it is not surprizing that Blavatsky found a common thread. > C. G. Jung has been the most helpful to me in understanding > this. Perhaps Blavatsky is looking at the same phenomonen with a > different set of metaphors. Perhaps this is too psychologizing > or reductionistic, I would like to hear what others think about > this. > > Campbell of course, ultimately got the Collective Uns. idea > from Jung. Jung was very closely involved with Theosophy (though > he didn't like most theosophists very much), and resonated very > closely with the core teachings. The collective uns. idea is > clearly stated in HPB's ~The Secret Doctrine.~ I'm not > suggesting that Jung got the idea from HPB (though it is quite > possible), but that the idea predates Jung, and is part of the > body of theosophical teachings. AP3>I would be very interested if you knew where Jung spoke of Theosophical thought. Don't go out of your way but if it comes to mind just note it if you would be so kind. > > > AP> This is why I am striving to develop a theology or > hermeneutic of experience rather than a hermeneutic of words. > Word are metaphors for direct experience and as such can not be > relied on to carry us. > > Interesting. Or to put it into semiotic jargon, you are > trying to get past the signifiers to reach the signified. But > each signifier creates more signifieds, thus creating signifying > chains. In semiotics, this symbolization works by both metaphor > and metonymy. The trick is to find your way back to the > primordial signifier. > From this point of view, all "dogma" is indeed "metaphor," > but each metaphor is a signifier for a deeper reality that is not > accessible through language. Or to put it in HPB's terminology, > until we get beyond the limitations of our earthly type of > perceptions, we will have to be satisfied with relative truths. > Deeper truths require a deeper state of consciousness. AP 4>As confusing as taking this hermeneutic is. It does seem to lead to a state of non-knowing, a truly admirable place if you are a mystic. As a "word child" I am not comfortable here in the dark place of unknowing where some speak of the light of the darkness. ie Eckhart. But after all is said and done the correct response to the truth is not analysis but perhaps something akin to worship or contemplation. It is hard not to see conceptual clarity as the end all be all of experience. But there I go sounding awful eastern, eh (Canadianism). Look forward to your response and anyone who want to jump in. You too Martin. Welcome to the group I'm a newbe too! Under the Mercy, Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:05:59 +0000 (GMT) From: John Mead Subject: theosophy/science/religion - fwded by jem (forwarding by jem. from murray. list glitch). as forwarded from murray: Martin Euser says: > I wonder if there are any Theosophists in this forum who study the > relationships between Science and Theosophy from the angles > H.P.B. mentioned (....) > This has my special interest (being a scientist and psychologist) > and this will be a necessary part of the evolution of Theosophy > too, I think. ... > Please let me know if you are working or studying on a kind of > synthesis between religion/science/Theosophy. I am very interested in this whole area, though don't have much time to devote to it these days. Regarding background, I have university degrees that emphasised physics. Over the years, I've been involved with electronic measuring systems, biomedical engineering, earth sciences, natural gas metering and technical computing. Music and, embracing all, theo-sophia are major interests of mine as well. (Paul Gillingwater will know that Cats have only narrowly missed being on this list.) The evolution of Theosophy as a modern movement seems to me to have already gone far beyond the direct influence of the T.S. itself, with the emergence of so many groups that are interested in allied subjects. There are more and more people who are _thinking_ this way, with or without ever having heard of the T.S. The convergence of science, theosophy and religion is already happening in many exciting ways, but still has far to go and the majority of humankind to reach. I see it as a critical part of the wider evolution of humanity at this stage. The dichotomy between science and religion in western culture has been with us too long already and the two "sides" need to acknowledge more that they are complementary approaches representing major facets of our own consciousness, and you can't be whole as an individual or a culture until they are recognised and welcomed. Theosophy, as something promoted by the T.S., benefits from the support of science because science is the most publicly recognised "oracle" today, and science is a public quest for truth or a better understanding of things. So science and theosophy have this major goal in common for a start. Both are stated to be based on observation, the difference being that science confines itself almost entirely to the 5 physical senses while theosophy acknowledges a wider range of ways to gain knowledge though many of those are not available to the majority of people yet. Many scientists still seem to be in active denial of the possibility of higher or subtler senses, and play down the role that intuition and creativity play in the advance of science itself. Observations mean little without theory, and theory always embodies some kind of insight. This is probably Martin Euser's province more than mine. Science has not been free of dogmatism and persecution either - failings that are usually associated with religion. The person who brought out the idea of plate tectonics in the earth was ostracised and vilified for years, and now it is the accepted wisdom. On the other hand, faith as a positive thing is not absent from science; take for example the deep underpinning (and unprovable) belief that the laws of nature must be essentially the same throughout the universe. Is this not an inner perception of unity, another great band of commonality with theosophy? There are some areas of research and sources of information that I would like to share. some of them probably known to you all, in the open territory between science, theosophy and religion. Fritjof Capra in his "The Tao of Physics" seems to have started a spate of excellent books showing how much the world views of theoretical physics and mystical insight have in common. Renee' Weber's "Dialogues with Scientists and Sages", Routledge & Paul 1986, covers interesting ground too. She wrote an article called "The Holographic Model and Esoteric Traditions" in The Quest magazine of Winter 1988, published by The T.S. in America. Larry Dossey M.D. has researched the power of prayer and obtained good evidence of its effectiveness - something that by the way seems to freak out some church-going people. See his articles "Prayer - old approach, new wonders" in The Quest, Summer 1990 pp 34 - 47, and "Prayer, Healing and Traditional Medicine" in the Winter 1992 issue of the same magazine, pp 42 - 47, an interview. The Summer 1990 one also has "Science, Religion and the Middle Way" by J.A. Perry, where the Middle Way is portrayed as theosophy. The earlier Dossey article is based on his own book "Recovering the Soul: a Scientific and Spiritual Search", Bantam 1989. The articles make extremely interesting reading. A book called "The Common Experience - signposts on the path to enlightenment" by J.M. Cohen & J-F Phipps, Quest Books 1992, contains a lot of accounts by "ordinary" people who have had some kind of mystical experience, whether it be of cosmic consciousness, spiritual light or anything else. Interesting in itself, it contains a reference to the Religious Experience Research Unit of Oxford, now renamed the Alister Hardy Research Centre, from which many of the accounts came. The research done at RERU is described in a book called "Seeing the Invisible: modern religious and transcendent experience" by Meg Maxwell & Verena Tschudin, Viking 1990. I haven't seen this book, but it sounds like a must for reading. "Science, Yoga and Theosophy", Theosophical Publishing House, Adyar 1975, is a selection of papers presented at the Seminar on Theosophy and Science at the centenary international Convention of the T.S. at Adyar. "Holistic Science and Human Values", from the Theosophy Science Centre, Adyar 1992, is a worthwhile collection of papers. This should be available by ordering from any T.S. national headquarters office. Then there is Ian Stevenson's pioneering resesarch on reincarnation, see for example his book "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" and the later books and research papers where he looks at the apparent memories of former lives that some children have. He is, or was, professor of psychiatry at the University of Virginia, and a member of the T.S. Therapeutic Touch, as a modern embodiment of ancient techniques of the laying-on of hands, has been developed and researched in hospital and academic environments by Dora Kunz as clairvoyant, and Dolores Krieger with a PhD in nursing. It has been taught to thousands of health professionals throughout the world. Several books by Krieger and/or Kunz summarise their research findings, confirming that human energy-field treatments have measurable physiological responses and benefits, and portraying something of the experience and effects of doing the healing work. The so-called Occult Chemistry research work is a world in itself. Beginning with the monumental clairvoyant investigations of Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater into the perceived structure of atoms, reported in their large book "Occult Chemistry", it has spawned some very interesting developments in the last 2 or 3 decades. A theoretical nuclear physicist called Stephen Phillips, in England, has produced a book "The ESP of Quarks" (publ. somewhere around 1983) which sets out an impressive-looking but as yet not well confirmed mathematical theory that links quark particles with what Besant and Leadbeater saw. Geoffrey Hodson did a lot of research with Dr David Lyness in the 1950's, recording his atomic-scale perceptions at great length, for example of electron beams and magnetic fields. The raw material is now in Lyness' son's possession, I believe. More such worked followed around 1978 at Dr E. Lester Smith's suggestion, trying to produce evidence that would test certain theories that would reconcile the AB/CWL findings with current understanding in physics. I helped Hodson do this research, setting up crystal samples and recording it all on tape. A pretty amazing experience it all was. Some of Hodson's most impressive work was in observations of the akashic records of archaelogical specimens, which were compared with current scientific knowledge. He got a success rate that was way above the kind that would excite people doing psi research in other fields. Finally, there is a Theosophy-Science Group in Australia, led by Dr Hugh Murdoch, an astrophysicist. They run seminars every now and then at The Manor in Sydney and publish a most interesting newsletter every couple of months. Its summaries of hot topics are very helpful when you don't have the time to follow them up yourself. You can write to Dr Murdoch at 28 Terrace Road, Killara, N.S.W. 2071, Australia, about joining his mailing list. His phone number is +61 2 498-4620. Well, this has turned into a bit of a booklist, and I am very aware that this is but a small fraction of the work that is going on around the world. The topics above are all ones which I have an interest in, amongst others. I hope this is helpful to some or all of you, and would be very happy to give more information if able to. One thing that strikes me is the great need for well-designed experiments in psi and theosophical research. We've been seeing an evolution in scientific method itself, under the stimulus of the incredibly difficult-to-control psi experimental environment. People with Martin Euser's background could help a lot here, especially if they pool talents and knowledge. No one discipline is enough, especially in this area. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 12:54:30 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: The Critical Path Here's my two cents worth on the Voice of the Silence. According to Arthur Patterson: > AP 2 >My training and habit of doing critical work on texts is > showing up here. I will tell you what I am up to. I know that > BHP is claiming to be translating Chinese Tibetian material but I > think that translation is a more subjective matter than what > first meets the eyes. If you add to that the real possibility > that BHP wrote in a altered state of consciousness through an > inner Teacher, which I think is not uncommon for her to assert, > then we are drifting considerably from the idea that this is a > strictly "literal translation" of the Books of Dzyan. I have > been reading Boris De Zirkoff on the "Sources of Secret > Doctrine". This is found in an anthology by Virgina Hanson. The Book of the Golden Precepts is the alleged source of the Voice. No one has identified this with any Asian text. Yet the internal evidence in the Voice is sufficient to persuade knowledgable readers (I don't class myself in this group-- I mean Asians or students of Buddhism etc.) of its authenticity. But confusing the matter of its origin is HPB's statement in a letter (to Hartmann I think) that the original language was Telugu. This fits neither with the fragments themselves (maybe the first one, which is more Hindu in flavor and less Buddhist than the other two) nor with what she said elsewhere about her sources. My tentative theory is that the Voice, and maybe the SD, and more definitely some posthumously published stuff on Buddhism, were derived from authentic Tibetan source materials acquired through Olcott's friendship with the Bengali explorer Sarat Chandra Das. Evidence on this is in The Masters Revealed-- not conclusive, but persuasive. Das obtained about 240 texts from the library of the Panchen Lama in Shigatse-- and HPB wrote about being in correspondence with the person in charge of this library. Another way for HPB to get Tibetan Buddhist texts without going to Tibet (which she may well have done when younger, but not after 1875) was through the Maharaja Ranbir Singh of Kashmir, who maintained a large library of texts in Sanskrit, Tibetan, Persian, Punjabi-- and who was a supporter of the TS. (My nominee for Master M>) > > am much more at home with the West. > Where is HPB in all of this. She is living on the dividing line > between both being a Russian. Just some scattered thoughts on > this but these are the rattlings in my brain. HPB was the first modern person to attempt (and successfully) to create a synthesis of Eastern and Western spirituality. This means that her view tends to reconcile the South Asian religions with elements of Western occultism and religion. Early childhood exposure to Tibetan Buddhism (as practiced by the Kalmucks) was followed by adolescent reading about Russian Rosicrucianism, so by the time she began her life of travel HPB was already oriented to East/West synthesis. For an earlier prototype of the same kind of synthesis one might look at Central Asian Isma`ilism, which draws on a wide variety of sources. It may be the origin of HPB's "Chaldean Book of Numbers," another never-identified mystery book cited by her. The relentless septenary explanations of everything found in HPB strongly hint at Isma`ili influence-- they were after all called the Seveners. Welcome to Theos-l, where you are livening things up after a slow period. Hope you stay around. Namaste From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 17:02:32 -0800 (PST) From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Information on Subscribers For everyone's information: There are current 73 subscribers to the four lists on Theosophy. The names, as returned from 'review' commands to the listserv program, are as follows. First is the email address, then the name, then the lists that are subscribed to, where "b" is theos-buds, "l" is theos-l, "n" is theos-news, and "r" is theos-roots. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 17:25:05 -0800 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Re: "The Critical Path" Arthur Patterson, AP> ...I still haven't written my first impressions on Silence but I have read it several times and right now I am putting the chinese or sanskrit terms into english in the margin of the text. I think the publisher should put the notes as end notes. My impressions will come but I am in no rush. At least about this. Actually some editions, including the original, do use end notes. There are also some corrupted versions out there. What edition are use using? AP> My training and habit of doing critical work on texts is showing up here. I will tell you what I am up to. I know that BHP is claiming to be translating Chinese Tibetian material but I think that translation is a more subjective matter than what first meets the eyes. If you add to that the real possibility that BHP wrote in a altered state of consciousness through an inner Teacher, which I think is not uncommon for her to assert, then we are drifting considerably from the idea that this is a strictly "literal translation" of the Books of Dzyan. I have been reading Boris De Zirkoff on the "Sources of Secret Doctrine". This is found in an anthology by Virgina Hanson. I see that I will have to be very careful about word choice with you. The word "translation" is my own, and I was using it loosely. HPB says that she had put this material to memory some years ago, while she was living in or near Tibet. Therefore when she wrote the ~Voice~, she was not working from a text, but from a well digested memory of one. Therefore, the word "translation" in the sense applied to say, Jowett's Plato, would be the wrong word here. HPB did not do translations in the ordinary sense of the word anyway. For instance, when she quoted "translations" from the Greek, she used Thomas Taylor instead of Jowett. Taylor is considered a terrible "translator," because he ignored the subtleties of grammar and word usage for the goal of trying to impart the "flavor"--the "feeling" the "inner sense" of what was being written. For HPB, Taylor represented more of what she was trying to achieve. I become very apprehensive when people mention HPB writing in an "altered state of consciousness" because this can mean so many things. A sizable number of people in this movement believe that HPB was "channeling the Masters". This is not at all true in the since that the word is used today. The evidence is that the vast majority of what HPB wrote came from her own mind. I don't want to get into the details of the nature of HPB's alleged occult powers. A book by Geoffrey Barborka entitled ~H.P.B. Tibet and Tulku~ covers this, as least from Barborka's point of view. But unless there is direct evidence that HPB wrote a particular piece of work through some extraordinary means, I would prefer to assume that it was written by ordinary means. As for the ~Voice~, I think HPB's own explanation (which is very ordinary) fits the evidence. AP> About that Eastern flavor. I am by no means familiar with a lot of Eastern thought beyond intro courses in comparitive religion but I have read and expreienced that the Western psyche is on another track. I will give my HO as to what I think the central difference is. The East for all its use of images is striving for an Apophatic Spirituality, that is an imageless spirituality where the distinction between the One and the Many is eradicated. The West seems to be striving for relationship between the One and the many through a kataphatic spirituality, a spirituality of images. The greatest example of this in my estimate is Dante The Divine Comedy. While appreciating the Eastern value of neti neti, that is not knowing, I am much more at home with the West. Where is HPB in all of this. She is living on the dividing line between both being a Russian. Just some scattered thoughts on this but these are the rattlings in my brain. I see what you mean about "neti neti" in Hinduism, but I'm not sure this covers all Eastern though. For instance take Kukai's school of Buddhism. It is crowded with symbolism which takes years of training to master. But I agree with you, that in the East, it is pretty consistent that one achieves through the transcendence of the symbols into direct knowing. But I suspect that this is where you were going in your earlier communication when you talked about the "hermeneutic of experience." AP> I would be very interested if you knew where Jung spoke of Theosophical thought. Don't go out of your way but if it comes to mind just note it if you would be so kind. Jung's mention of theosophy is scattered through his writings, but he does not speak very highly of it in the form that it has taken after HPB had died. He does, however, speak of the importance of the Theosophical movement. The source of most of my information concerning Jung and Theosophy come from a friendship and many discussions with the late Dr. Bendit. Bendit was a Theosophist (since 1914 I think), a Jungian psychoanalysis and a friend of Jung. Most of what he told me is only in my memory, though one tape recording on this material does exist. To put it in a nutshell, Jung was very deeply interested in Theosophy, astrology, psychic phenomena etc., but did not get along with most theosophists, who according to Jung took a very philistine attitude towards his work. He did, however have a friendship with Bendit and his wife. His secretary of twenty years was also a theosophist. AP> As confusing as taking this hermeneutic is. It does seem to lead to a state of non-knowing, a truly admirable place if you are a mystic. As a "word child" I am not comfortable here in the dark place of unknowing where some speak of the light of the darkness. ie Eckhart. But after all is said and done the correct response to the truth is not analysis but perhaps something akin to worship or contemplation. It is hard not to see conceptual clarity as the end all be all of experience. But there I go sounding awful eastern, eh (Canadianism). Yes, sounds like the East meets West here. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 94 00:26:54 -0400 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: To: Jerry H-E & Art P. Jerry To add something to your picture of DePurucker's collective Karma which caused the holocaust, you mentioned that anti-semitism was all over Europe & the US, & that this produced Hitler. Somehow that put things more into perspective for me. He didn't just come out of irrational nowhere. Another facet was that Jews, having been persecuted so often, felt as victims, and being different were on the defensive. "I didn't do anything wrong, please, leave me alone." I don't see this anymore in the American generations which grew up here. I myself realized that I was like this long ago, & I think, I hope, have shed this kind of Karma. Also, your tale of the black kids you have in school who don't know what a sit-in is anymore, but to them it's history, solidifed what I'd noticed but not formulated. My son, Bob, took my 14 year old grandson Chris to see "Schindler's List". It was just another horror movie to him, no different than "Frankenstein" or some such. Maybe for future generations Simon Wiesenthal's work will serve as a reminder to avoid another holocaust ... if they take it for real. However, at the present time, there are several cases of genocide going on around the world. There is a movement among all nations towards love & peace. May it prevail soon. May we have worked out soon all the negative karma we've accumulated since the year 1. Incidentally, having been exposed to all this makes me very aware of civil rights issues, and what's happening to the underdog ... also of certain unsavory political maneuvers, which try to abridge civil liberties. Right now, I'm a little worried, because I heard on TV that the far right is getting into politics at the grass roots, running for school boards, etc. That was a Nazi tactic. When I worry about a congenital lier like Ollie North maybe becoming Senator, the only thing that consoles me is that Nixon did some pretty underhanded things too, & so did Joe McCarthy, & we survived both. I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this. It's the truth. I spent most of my working life at the NJ State Employment Service, where most of our applicants were black, & poor. I think I went more out of my way to help them (though I wasn't the only one), because of my German Jewish background. It was a positive & tangible way of working out what had happened to us. Jerry Yes, but I think that it's not the only fast way. Certainly, when the first man touched the fire a lightning caused with his bare hands, he learned that fire hurts. But I don't think that today's method of trying to make learning fun for the kids is any less effective. I still remember Goethe with a great deal of love, because my 1-4th grade teacher loved him, and told us stories about him, read us his poetry & took us through his house. I went on to study him a little more in my German course in college. Another new learning method is what we're doing. We're learning by talking to each other. The only thing I'm suffering because of that, is that I'm having such a good time jivin' with you brothers, I'm neglecting other things I'm supposed to be doing. But I'm planning to catch up on some of them in the next few days. At my age, I'm entitled to some fun. Rev. Art - You sure have a way with words, guess that's why you're a preacher. I asked a number of educated people in our dining room what "hermeneutic" means, & nobody knew. Our head waitress finally looked it up in a dictionary, but I'm still not quite sure of what it means. Is it to take the Bible literally? I know about Wotan mostly from listening to Wagner's "Ring". So I can't really discuss with you the German "Wotan roots". I don't know what they would be. I only went to 5th grade in Germany. I got as far as learning the local history & geography of Frankfurt. The rest of my education I got over here. Art I think that's a more satisfying explanation than the one I gave for the same concepts appearing in various religions. I didn't think of connecting it with archetypes & the collective unconscious. That makes a lot of sense as the reason for religions having a basic unity. I have to plug theosophy once more by telling you that I wasn't able to see this, until I'd studied quite a bit of theosophy. I can now understand better the form various religions take of the same archetypal truths. AP When I think of German people & sacrifice the character of Elisabeth in "Tannhauser" comes to mind. Seems to me that the German notion of sacrifice has masochistic overtones, & it isn't only the Germans. One theosophical example of sacrifice I like is the idea that God sacrificed some of his absoluteness to make manifest the universe, but this was a creative act, still is. I can't picture God as standing there saying "World, you must be beholden to me, because I made a great personal sacrifice to create you". He wanted to create, so he did. He gave to the effort whatever it took, but it was willingly given. He created so many different things that I kindof think He had fun creating the universe out of Himself. & if we say"thank you" that makes for a nicer relationship, but I don't think God gets insulted with someone who doesn't. He loves us. (Sometimes hard to see, but I believe He does.) As an aside, we had a hallowe'en party in our dining room, with families joining us. (My 2 sons live too far away to get to these parties.) We had a parade for those of us who came in costume. I was a headless ghost, in a white table cloth, & I carried a plastic jack-o-latern under my arm. For the parade, I wailed like a banshee. Scared some people. That wasn't planned. Guess I must've looked like people's idea of a real ghost. First prize was won by G.G., my 98 year old friend, who came dressed up as a gypsy. She's somethin else! Used to be a fine artist, but can't see well enough anymore. She's always chipper, & always good company. After dinner, the grandchildren & the staff children went trick - or -treating by around our different apartments. Of course I burned a batch of pop corn, & melted some plastic onto my good $60.- soup pot to boot. But my visitors got popcorn. We had fun. Also had a haunted house in the storage room, with staff & some teenage neighbors doing the haunting. For an old people's apartment complex, we're really pretty upbeat. Now for a more detailed answer to 1 item. I'd like to quote or summarize 3 writers about "mortification of the flesh". AP HPB "The Key To Theosophy" p. 259 " ... but the first thing which members learn there is a true conception of the relation of the body, or physical sheath, to the inner, the true man. The relation and mutual interaction between these 2 aspects of human nature are explained and demonstrated to them, so that they soon become imbued with the supreme importance of the inner man over the outer case or body. They are taught that blind unintelligent asceticism is mere folly; that such conduct as that of St. Labro which I spoke of before, or that of the Indian Fakirs and jungle ascetics, who cut, burn and macerate their bodies in the most cruel and horrible manner, is simply self-torture for selfish ends, ie to develop will-power, but is perfectly useless for the purpose of assisting true spiritual, or Theosophic development." IK Taimni "A Way to Self Discovery" It's an Adyar classic, copyrighted in 1967, but Taimni might have written it earlier. Dr. Taimni taught Chemistry at a university in India. "The first step in bringing the physical body under our control is to separate ourselves in consciousness from it and realize as fully as possible that we are different from and masters of this body. In dealing with the necesssity of acquiring knowledge of the physical body it was pointed out that one result of gaining this knowledge was to give us the ability, to a certain extent, of separating ourselves mentally from it - to objectify it, to use the technical phraseology. (to be able to stand back & look at ourselves LFD) This power of objectification and dissociation of the body from ourselves should be sedulously developed by a rapid course of training until we become fully conscious of this dualism, and identify ourselves with the body no more than we identify ourselves with our horse which we ride and which we use for doing our work. We feed the horse properly, we keep it fit and may even allow it to interfere with our work and always make it do what is necessary. Similar should be our attitude towards the physical body which we must recognize as a living thing with its whims and idiosyncracies, its natural desire for comfort and to avoid anything to which it is not used. But this attitude is not acquired by merely thinking in this manner. It is the result of a persistent rigid discipline to which the physical body is subjected. Without this discipline we cannot develop the capacity to dissociate ourselves from the body and, unkown to ourselves, we shall continue to be its slave. This discipline does not mean, however, our going to the other extreme and torturing the body and subjecting it to unnecessary strain as is done by some misguided fakirs & religious people. These exteme methods are wholly wrong and the "Bhagavad-gita" and, in fact, all great Teachers have warned us against them. The physical body is brought under control simply by applying a steady pressure of will in changing its wrong habits and using patience and commonsense in its management. The purpose of Tapas or austerities of various kinds, practised intelligently, is to acquire this kind of control over the physical body and make it an obedient servant of the soul so that it carries out efficiently and without resistance whatever it is required to do." The last quote is from Annie Besant who was President after HPB. It concerns Vairagya - detachment, a very important & often misunderstood concept of theosophy. It's from "The Path of Discipleship" The booklet contains lectures given in 1895, & published in 1910. "I have already pointed out to you that a man must begin to train himself in separation from action as regards its fruit. He must train himself to do action as a duty without continually looking for any sort of personal gain..... He has developed Viveka ... the discrimination between ... the transitory and the permanent. And as ... permanency make(s itself) felt in the man's mind, it is inevitable that worldy objects shall lose their attraction, and that he shall become definitely indifferent to them ... when the permanency is recognized, if only for a moment, the transitory seems so little worth striving after; in the probationary path all the objects around us lose their attractive power, and it is no longer an effort for the man to turn away from them; it is no longer by deliberate effort of the will that he does not permit himself to work for fruit. The objects have no longer an attraction in themselves; the root of desire is gradually perishing, and these objects, as it is said in the "Bhagavad-Gita", turn away from the abstemious dweller in the body. It is not so much that he deliberately abstains, as that they lose the power in any way to satisfy him. The objects of the senses turn away from him, because of that training that we have already dealt with, that he has passed through." I know of some theosophists who can function on that level. I can't as yet, except in spurts. I can sometimes do something, & then just go on without checking back as to whether my actions have accomplished anything worthwhile. I sometimes do what I can, & then go on. Life has also taught me to become detached - more or less from people & things that I thought I should be attached to, maybe not quite as radically as you have been, AP, but for me it was radically enough. I guess that's my lesson of Vairagya & that kind of lesson is often painful, as you say, Jerry. Lately, I had to maneuver very hard to be able to get an up to date computer. If I had to give that up again, I'd be most unhappy. Also, if I couldn't have my cat Chou chou Makia with me anymore I wouldn't like it one bit. She's my buddy. Closing favorite idea. It's from Annie Besant, although maybe not originally. Spirit ensouls body, and body gives Spirit a form through which to work. AP you wrote about words limiting. I know. try to tell a dream to someone, & you lose 1/2 of it in the telling. So far, words are our best way of communicating though. Maybe eons from now, when we are all able to communicate telepathically, we'll be able to communicate beyond the limits of words. Shanti Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:07:37 -0600 (CST) From: Arthur Patterson Subject: Critical Path to Silence Dear Jerry, Concerning the Voice of The Silence Edition: J1> Actually some editions, including the original, do use end notes. There are also some corrupted versions out there. What edition are use using? AP1> The edition I have is the verbatim edition by Theosophical University Press 1992. Yes it does have end notes but not footnotes. You have to jump to the back constantly so I have transcribed the words in the margin. AP>> My training and habit of doing critical work on texts is showing up here. I will tell you what I am up to. I know that BHP is claiming to be translating Chinese Tibetan material but I think that translation is a more subjective matter than what first meets the eyes. If you add to that the real possibility that BHP wrote in a altered state of consciousness through an inner Teacher, which I think is not uncommon for her to assert, then we are drifting considerably from the idea that this is a strictly "literal translation" of the Books of Dzyan. I have been reading Boris De Zirkoff on the "Sources of Secret Doctrine". This is found in an anthology by Virgina Hanson. J2> I see that I will have to be very careful about word choice with you. The word "translation" is my own, and I was using it loosely. HPB says that she had put this material to memory some years ago, while she was living in or near Tibet. Therefore when she wrote the ~Voice~, she was not working from a text, but from a well digested memory of one. Therefore, the word "translation" in the sense applied to say, Jowett's Plato, would be the wrong word here. HPB did not do translations in the ordinary sense of the word anyway. For instance, when she quoted "translations" from the Greek, she used Thomas Taylor instead of Jowett. Taylor is considered a terrible "translator," because he ignored the subtleties of grammar and word usage for the goal of trying to impart the "flavour"--the "feeling" the "inner sense" of what was being written. For HPB, Taylor represented more of what she was trying to achieve. AP2> You have hit upon exactly what I was thinking. She is like an oral interpreter rather than a recorder. Is she is taking whatever she remembers of this text and doing spirituality around it. That is making it move beyond its original intention into something that is relevant to the concerns she and her world were grappling with. I don't have any problem with this. I think it is just one way to do spirituality. The problem is that those who read her 100 years or so later will do all kinds of things to her spirituality. This may not be as bad as it first appears since they are only following her que. How close or how far from the original documents HPB was I am in no position to judge since I have never read the Golden Precepts but how relevant her spiritual take on the material is, is something that I am exploring for myself. J3> I become very apprehensive when people mention HPB writing in an "altered state of consciousness" because this can mean so many things. A sizable number of people in this movement believe that HPB was "channeling the Masters". This is not at all true in the since that the word is used today. The evidence is that the vast majority of what HPB wrote came from her own mind. I don't want to get into the details of the nature of HPB's alleged occult powers. A book by Geoffrey Barborka entitled ~H.P.B. Tibet and Tulku~ covers this, as least from Barborka's point of view. But unless there is direct evidence that HPB wrote a particular piece of work through some extraordinary means, I would prefer to assume that it was written by ordinary means. As for the ~Voice~, I think HPB's own explanation (which is very ordinary) fits the evidence. A3> I understand your reticence about channeling I am of the same mind but when Zirkoff mentioned the Tulku, I couldn't resist wondering if she is not having a prophetic experience similar to Ezekiel of Jeremiah, here is what Zirkoff says: This technical Tibetan term describes the condition when a living Initiate sends a part of his consciousness to take embodiment, for a longer or shorter period of time, in a disciple or chela whom the Initiate sends into the outer world to perform a duty or to teach. ... HPB acted frequently throughout her public career as the temporary tulku of one or another Adept or Initiate of the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.. Talku is performed without the loss of consciousness and with definite and complete knowledge of what is taking place, the occultist maintaining his self- consciousness at all times, and merely lending his astro-physical organism to the temporary usage of a higher consciousness by mutual consent. p. 14 Virgina Hanson,ed. HP Blavatsky and the Secret Doctrine.1988. While I don't really understand the above quote it does give me cause to wonder about how to interpret texts that are written through what I used to call "inspiration". I suppose it involves a theory or revelation or some such thing. Blavasky was obviously not just what her physical presence suggested she seems to be a prophet of sorts. As such interpreting her is tricky however awe inspiring. The Voice of Silence Sages do not grieve for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exit, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will anyone of us ever hereafter cease to be. This quote from the Bhagavatgita II 27 struck me deeply for some reason. The belief in a hereafter, which at times I find very hard to sustain, certainly changes the way we perceive our day to day existence. When I can accept the truth of these words my everyday activity is not a frantic, and definitely not an immortality project. I have time even though my body is getting older and my diseases increase in the physical host of my spirit. I am hoping to strengthen my belief in this through my studies in theosophy. Please, anyone on the list, feel free to add or correct or confirm these explorations. Fragment I I am going to try to paraphrase, with full recognition that I am very new to all this, what I think HPB is speaking of: The instruction is for those who need to learn the dangers of collectivity, animality, and living according to the lowest nature. It is necessary to become detached from the objects of sense experience, the clutter of everyday life, in order to hear the voice of God or The Silence. This detachment require some sort of training. The Mind is the Slayer of the Real. That is our mind through its incessant need to re-interpret reality to serve our comfort, or our personal agenda, distorts reality. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. This reminds me of Kierkegaard and his story of Abraham and Issac as symbolizing slaying of the rationality on the mount of revelation. This is what I find so dangerous about most forms of literalism when it comes to interpreting spiritual texts. So I read this as slay the need to control what you are experiencing through the subtle and illusionary use of words and ideation. We are ready to understand when we see our waking life as a dream. I take this seriously. I think that when I view the personality that I think is myself as my Self then I am deluded. My personality is a dream, it is not the totality of me but the way I present myself to myself in the dream drama I call life. When I am living according to the externals or self perceptions I am "diverse". This can be exciting and interesting but it can be a cacophony of fragmentation and a distraction to the path. To be one is to move to the solitude of Silence which blots out the external noise which I call "having a life". Being alive is to be unified with that One. When we have blocked out the outer and become harmonized with the Unity of Life then I will be able to hear and remember. Otherwise I will let the spiritual words drop out of my ear as if they were a morning dream that is not taken seriously enough to be remembered. Lesson One is be silent, still the irritation, and listen to the sound of the Silence. Well that's my morning devotions in HPB. Thanks for reading along with me. Under the Mercy, Arthur Paul Patterson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:14:09 -0500 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Silence Comments (Continued) Arthur-- I like your thoughts on the Voice, and have been on the same wavelength in responding to a work with a similar theme. As I mentioned earlier, the first fragment is much more Hindu in content than the other two. I'm reading Spiritual Gems by Sawan Singh, a guru in the Radhasoami lineage, which is Sikh-influenced Hinduism. The gist of the Radhasoami message is that our true home is Sachchand, a spiritual realm beyond the physical, astral, and mental worlds. We can only return to this home through spiritual practices involving three stages. Nam is repetition of divine names while centered in the third eye. Bhajan is hearing the Sound Current which we can follow through all the realms back to Sachchand. Dhyan is envisioning the form of the guru, whom we can meet in the inner planes and who will guide us back. All this has interesting corollaries to the Voice; the spiritual sounds HPB says one can hear are identical to those taught by Radhasoami gurus. The Mahatma letters discuss the second one in the lineage, Rai Saligram, and encourage Sinnett to join his group: "no harm and much instruction" can come of it according to KH. All this is producing strongly ambivalent reactions in me. On the one hand, there is something very inviting and compelling about the book and its teachings; the practices, such as I can experiment with them without initiation, seem to really unlock inner worlds. BUT the thing that is missing from all this, in my view, is the value of integration. Soul travel is all about getting out of the physical, astral and mental planes because they are seen as contemptible in comparison to the spiritual realms. The practices promise to enable us to get out of the cycle of incarnation immediately; to hell with everyone else. What I would suggest to you is that the first fragment in The Voice of the Silence has very much the same attitude toward the physical, astral, emotional, mental aspects of ourselves-- outright rejection. "Let the disciple slay the slayer." BUT this is only the first act in a three-act play. In the next two fragments the tone changes entirely, even reverses itself, and by the end we have an endorsement of full engagement with life and service to others. Maybe it would be helpful to look at the first fragment as thesis, the second as antithesis, and the third as synthesis? I'll reread the Voice and see if this works. Namaste From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:15:18 -0500 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Higher Knowledge is Real and Not Elitist This is by Eldon Tucker Jerry Hejka-Ekins: This posting was inspired by a recent comment that you made to the effect that all theosophical writers do not have a common divine revelation, and that students of Theosophy are no better than anyone else. ---- Higher Knowledge is Real and Not Elitist The treasures of spiritual evolution are open to all. There is a universality of access to them. We are all inter-related, and have the potential of tapping into all the higher faculties of consciousness that await the future evolution of humanity. No one has a special privilege, special access, to the Higher. We are all free, at our own choice, to open ourselves up, over many lifetimes, or to turn our backs on the Higher and live solely in the material world. As people, as personalities, none of us is any better than any other. This applies to other kingdoms of nature as well. We are not intrinsically better than the trees in the forest, the fish in the ocean, or the birds in the sky. All come forth from the same Mystery, the same Root, and all are inseparably interdependent on each other for continued existence. There are differences, though, in evolution, in developed faculties of consciousness. There are more types of awakened consciousness in us as humans than in animals or plants. We are able to self-consciously participate in life in a much-more complete manner that Monads in earlier kingdoms of nature. While we can say that we are of equal worth with the creatures of nature about us, we are not being arrogant or denying the universality of life when talking about what we know and can do that the rest of nature cannot. It is a simple statement of fact, not an arrogant claim to superiority. These differences in development do not only exist between higher and lower kingdoms of nature, but within the kingdoms as well. Within humanity, there are obvious differences in spiritual, intellectual, and personal development. Noting these differences, the result of countless lifetimes of hard work and development, there need be no sense of judgment or superiority. Consider a research scientist, with a Ph.D. in electrical engineering. It is perfectly reasonable to say that he knows more of engineering than a high school dropout whom ended up working as a bartender. This statement does not place a higher *value* on the scientist, as a person, but merely states the obvious fact that he really knows something more, and it is not merely a matter of one opinion versus another. We learn in Theosophy of a natural progression, through evolution, over vast periods of time, wherein we progress through the kingdoms of nature. We have come as far as humanity. There is much more left for us to go as humans, after which even higher kingdoms await us, the kingdoms of the Dhyani-Chohans. Within humanity, there are a number of stages of development, following the lines of evolution, wherein new faculties are awakened. Over vast ages, humanity will undergo changes and these developments will become commonplace. Some have raced ahead and already acquired these faculties. That process of hastened development is called the Path, and there are people at the various stages along it. We have good people, pre-Chelas, Chelas, Mahatmas, Bodhisattvas, then Buddhas. There are stages in the human kingdom even beyond Buddhahood, but there are physical limitations that prevent even further progress at this time of the development of the world. Beyond the human kingdom are the Dhyani-Chohans. They took care of humanity in its infancy, and at the point when humanity became self-responsible, when men acquired the fire of mind, they imparted to the elect of humanity what could accurately be called a divine revelation. This knowledge is preserved to this day, as an oral tradition based upon learning and personal experience, by the Mahatmas. What we have in the theosophical literature is a rudimentary presentation of fragments of that knowledge. There are bits of cosmology, occult history, information on the nature of other planes, and descriptions of the inner workings of consciousness. This knowledge, though, is seriously limited due to a lack of adequate terminology in the English language, and to the fact that it attempts to express in writing things that go beyond our ability to articulate them in words. As we study Theosophy, we find ourselves coming up to a stepping-off point. There is a rich offering of ideas to study. Under serious consideration, though, we find that the same terms are used in more than one way. This is sometimes to veil the deeper truths from all but those whom have eyes to see, from those whom are ready for the hidden or esoteric truths. Our first study of Theosophy is intellectual, based upon reading books, discussing our initial ideas, underlining passages and keeping track of quotations. And although this is the first stage, we never leave it behind; it remains an important part of the process even as we move on to higher stages. The initial introduction to the intellectual study of the Teachings could be considered the first Initiation or awakening, the awakening of the personality to the fount of learning. Eventually, though, we reach a plateau, a period of barrenness, a stage where we seem unable to make further progress. This may lead us to disillusionment and abandonment of Theosophy. It may persist for the remainder of our life, with us become embittered to the Teachings, becoming an open critic of the apparent emptiness of the "odd and meaningless metaphysical system holding no practical value for anyone or anything in life." But this perception of Theosophy as lifeless, as a well-gone-dry, is due to our personal loss, not due to its lack of Treasures. Instead of giving up, we can treat the situation as a Zen koan of momentual proportion. We can face it and find ourselves an answer. We can know more; we can go beyond the words; we can find an Inner Teacher or source of renewed learning, and this might be called the second Initiation. Going back to the Teachings with renewed interest, with a new perspective on them, with a new key to unlock deeper meanings in them, we find that we now use them as "diving boards" which we use as jumping off points. We go beyond what is found on the written page and learn more. There is a Treasury of Wisdom behind the written words, and we have only to take what is there. When we consider this process as an internal event, we would call it the awakening of our Inner Teacher. When considered as external, we could describe it as coming in touch with the theosophic thought-current and tapping into external sources of Knowledge about us, tapping into Mahat and learning directly. This type of learning represents the initial awakening of a new faculty of knowing. It corresponds to the ordinary manner of thought as the sense of sight corresponds to the sense of touch. Animals may unconsciously tap into it, and use it as instinct, knowing what to do independent of personal experience. We too can tap into learning that is not based upon personal experience (based upon experiences in our personalities). It should be noted, though, that nothing in the universe is infallible. This faculty of learning is as subject to mistakes as our ordinary intellectual processes. Just as we can make mistakes of logic, or remember what we have read incorrectly, so we can make mistakes based upon this second form of learning. In our theosophical literature, it is wrong to demand a conformity of expression, to require that the doctrines be entombed in fixed words. This is not because we have a confusion of opinions, and don't want to arbitrarily impose one opinion over the others. Rather it is because we are dealing with Truths that go beyond the ability of words to express them. These Truths are real, true, and as much a living, vital part of the makeup of life and nature and the sun, moon, and sky, but we are lacking in easy ways to communicate them. There is the additional problem of sorting out opinion from knowledge in the theosophical books. Some books are written by students with simply an intellectual understanding of the philosophy. If written with accuracy, and properly cited, they can provide assistance in study. If written carelessly, they may contain a confused mix of opinions interblended with some of the fundamental Teachings. What you get depends upon the author. A second class of books are written by those whom have "gone beyond the words" in their studies. They may present some of the basic Teachings in an equally intellectual manner, but also include some personal insights, from their "going beyond", that cannot be backed up by citations to an authoritative text. These ideas can only be verified by the personal experience of the individual reader. How many of these ideas are true Gems and how many are silly confusions, depends upon the clarity of insight, and upon the success in avoiding the adding of personal opinion, of the author. This is analogous to psychical sight: the bias of the personality can distort what is perceived. The third class of books, but by far the most important, are those that could be considered authoritative. These are written by people, too, and people are fallible. The difference in them is that they are written by Teachers, individuals specifically assigned the work of communicating some of the wisdom of the Mahatmas to humanity. The Teachers are assisted or overseen by the Mahatmas, and openly act as their representatives in the world. Other books could be considered as the sharing of what has been learned by one student to another. These books could be considered as authorized presentation of a portion of some of what the Mahatmas know. An example of this kind of book is "The Secret Doctrine" by H.P. Blavatsky. These books would be the ones that form the basis of a study of Theosophy; they are the ones that need be learned and cited in an intellectual study of the Philosophy. There *are* inner realities in the universe. We *can* tap into them. They exist and are real regardless of what theory we may choose to describe them by. One such reality is that there is a higher faculty of knowing, one that can be awakened by a concerted study of Theosophy and put to use in understanding life. It is as real as the shoes on our feet, and not denied to anyone. We need only undertake the process to develop and awaken it, and it is there. Our only barrier to attainment is the false belief that it does not exist, or that it is impossible to attain, or reserved for but the Buddhas and Christs of the world. That is simply untrue. It is an easy, gentle process to open up this faculty of Knowing. Step through the apparent barrenness of intellectual metaphysics. Engage a way of seeing things that is not elite, not privileged, but freely open to all to acquire. See the Truth in a deeper, newer, fresher way! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:16:00 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Liesel;Arthur;Theosophy Liesel and Arthur, L> My son, Bob, took my 14 year old grandson Chris to see "Schindler's List". It was just another horror movie to him, no different than "Frankenstein" or some such. Maybe for future generations Simon Wiesenthal's work will serve as a reminder to avoid another holocaust ... if they take it for real. I believe Wiesenthal has exactly this scenario in mind. The way your grandson experienced the movie is pretty typical and has caused quite a stir. Spielberg, I understand is trying to set up special educational materials in order to counter this reaction. Many school systems are also trying to respond to this crises. Our educational system has a list of important things that an educated person should know--but the list is too long and we can't teach it all anymore. Some things have to be dropped. Wiesenthal is making sure that the holocaust is not one of them-- or else ~Schindler's List~ just becomes, as you say, just another "horror movie." LD> Incidentally, having been exposed to all this makes me very aware of civil rights issues, and what's happening to the underdog ... also of certain unsavory political maneuvers, which try to abridge civil liberties. Right now, I'm a little worried, because I heard on TV that the far right is getting into politics at the grass roots, running for school boards, etc. That was a Nazi tactic. When I worry about a congenital lier like Ollie North maybe becoming Senator, the only thing that consoles me is that Nixon did some pretty underhanded things too, & so did Joe McCarthy, & we survived both. I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this. It's the truth. I spent most of my working life at the NJ State Employment Service, where most of our applicants were black, & poor. I think I went more out of my way to help them (though I wasn't the only one), because of my German Jewish background. It was a positive & tangible way of working out what had happened to us. Oh gosh, I could rant and rave for another twelve pages on that one, but I also don't want to drift to far from theosophy, which is what the theme of this net is supposed to be. The issue is representation. According to my wife's research in this area (she teaches political theory at the University here) The poor and the working class are the very people who would stand to benefit the most from the "liberals" in this country. But they are also the people least likely to vote. The poor and working class believe that their vote doesn't count and nothing can be done. The majority of voters in this country are a retired and very conservative minority. They want more jails to lock up the young drug addicts who steal their "stuff" that they have accumulated over their lives. Their kids have grown up, so education is not an immediate concern, in fact they are mistrustful of it--consider it a failure--therefore they are more than happy to divert funds from education to build more prisons. Ollie North was operating from the ethical value of "loyalty"--"My country right or wrong." Remember when the Senate told him that they had evidence that he had shredded documents to conceal the Iranian weapons deal from the Senate? North didn't deny it. He didn't say "gee, that was illegal, and I realize I shouldn't have done that"--no, he said: "Did I get all of it? Did I miss anything?" He was putting loyalty over law. From the Kohlberg scale of six, he was operating at stage three. If he was accepting payment and privileges (evidence shows he was, though he denied it), then he was also operating at stage 2. Our country operates basically at a law and order level (stage 4), but a sizeable part of our population is still at a stage three level, and our Capitalistic system is based upon stage one values (selfishness and greed). Only a minority of people operate at post conventional level of 5 or 6 (values of right and wrong-- good and evil that transcend considerations of selfishness, greed, loyalty and law). The Terry Wait, Barbara Walters interview was a classic in that matter. Wait, who operated at a stage 6 was completely incomprehensible to Walters. Wait after being beaten and tortured described his passing up of an opportunity to grab a gun and make an escape--and gave his reasons for it. It he was to stand on the principle of love and non violence, then he had to model that behavior. Walters was flabbergasted--she didn't understand it. The other week, my wife and I spent the weekend in Carmel. It is a little costal town near San Francisco that is the playground for the very wealthy. We were there because my wife was running a weekend workshop on (ironically) ethics at the Monterey Institute for International Studies, and we couldn't find a motel in Monterey. On our last evening, we took a walk together in town (Carmel). We stopped at a cafe for a capaccino and slice of carrot cake (bill was over $13.00). Most of the businesses were bars, restaurants, artist's studios, and very expensive junk shops. I don't think there was another sober person on the street other than us. When I'm in a strange environment, I like to keep my eyes and ears open, so I tuned in on the conversations of the people as they passed us. Without exception, everyone was completely self involved and angry. Three conversations in a roll ware venting anger at "those damn liberals" , and "we have to get them out of office--they are ruining the country." HPB's teachings focused upon altruism and self responsibility. What is going on today represents the polar opposite of those values. DePurucker, in ~Wind of the Spirit~ wrote that though the Theosophical Society is not itself a political organization, theosophists have a moral obligation to participate in the system to the extend of their conscience and to vote. I don't have much hope. LD> ...Certainly, when the first man touched the fire a lightning caused with his bare hands, he learned that fire hurts. But I don't think that today's method of trying to make learning fun for the kids is any less effective. I spend three hours a week in seminars discussing how to more effectively teach. You have touch upon a huge subject with a lot of history to it. We still have a lot to learn about this- -but your right, school is a lot better place for learning than when we were going there. Yet, I wonder if learning that Columbus sailed the "Ocean blue" in 1492 is the same kind of learning being burned by a fire, or being "burned" by the consequence of ones own dishonest actions? AP> The edition I have is the verbatim edition by Theosophical University Press 1992. Yes it does have end notes but not footnotes. You have to jump to the back constantly so I have transcribed the words in the margin. I like that edition. I have a mail order book business here, and that is the one I prefer to sell. However, I agree with you that end notes is a bad idea, and I wish HPB didn't do it that way. MLA has also adopted end notes for academic papers. Sometimes I get fantasies of hanging the members of that committee by the toes. I think that had a better system in the 60's with their "op cits" etc. JHE> ....HPB did not do translations in the ordinary sense of the word anyway.... AP> You have hit upon exactly what I was thinking. She is like an oral interpreter rather than a recorder. Is she is taking whatever she remembers of this text and doing spirituality around it. That is making it move beyond its original intention into something that is relevant to the concerns she and her world were grappling with. I don't have any problem with this. I think it is just one way to do spirituality. The problem is that those who read her 100 years or so later will do all kinds of things to her spirituality. This may not be as bad as it first appears since they are only following her que. How close or how far from the original documents HPB was I am in no position to judge since I have never read the Golden Precepts but how relevant her spiritual take on the material is, is something that I am exploring for myself. HPB was trying to put across a spiritual philosophy. I'm not sure if the technical correctness of her "translation" is an answerable question, because her "Book of Golden Precepts" doesn't seem to be identifiable to any known single text. In the end, it is probably just as well to treat it as an original work that has been shown to be consistent with Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. She also does this with the Book of Dzyan in ~The Secret Doctrine.~ The text that she was drawing from was unknown in her time, and she was accused of making it up. A friend of mine, who has been researching this question for the past twenty years, believes that it comes from the group of Lam Rin texts of Tsong-Kha-Pa. It seems that he has found the church, but is still looking for the pew. AP> I understand your reticence about channeling I am of the same mind but when Zirkoff mentioned the Tulku, I couldn't resist wondering if she is not having a prophetic experience similar to Ezekiel of Jeremiah....While I don't really understand the above quote it does give me cause to wonder about how to interpret texts that are written through what I used to call "inspiration". I suppose it involves a theory or revelation or some such thing. Blavasky was obviously not just what her physical presence suggested she seems to be a prophet of sorts. As such interpreting her is tricky however awe inspiring. Boris is talking about part of the consciousness of a Buddha like person(s) being present in HPB's consciousness. I wouldn't call this "inspiration." To me, inspiration is when the "god within us" is coming through. I would consider inspiration a higher state then tulku. AP> I am going to try to paraphrase, with full recognition that I am very new to all this, what I think HPB is speaking of: AP> The instruction is for those who need to learn the dangers of collectivity, animality, and living according to the lowest nature. I think also in this sloka is the warning against the pursuit of "yogic practices" for the purpose of developing "abnormal" psychic powers. AP> It is necessary to become detached from the objects of sense experience, the clutter of everyday life, in order to hear the voice of God or The Silence. This detachment require some sort of training. "God" is another word that I have problems with because of the Judeo-Christian view of a personal God-the-creator-of-the- universe with whom one can have personal intercourse. Such a concept is not in Mahayana Buddhism, nor is it in HPB's writings. There is however, an inner "god" whose voice is "The Silence." But that god is to "God" as the ray is to the sun. For God, I prefer terms like "the unknowable", or "the rootless root". I have had this conversation with many students of theosophy, who reply by swearing to me that by "God" they do not mean a "personal God", then In the next breath refer to this "God" as "He". See HPB's three fundamental propositions in ~The Secret Doctrine~, p. 14 etc. AP> Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. This reminds me of Kierkegaard and his story of Abraham and Issac as symbolizing slaying of the rationality on the mount of revelation. This is what I find so dangerous about most forms of literalism when it comes to interpreting spiritual texts. So I read this as slay the need to control what you are experiencing through the subtle and illusionary use of words and ideation. Interesting. For "control" I would use the word "overcome." AP> We are ready to understand when we see our waking life as a dream. I take this seriously. I think that when I view the personality that I think is myself as my Self then I am deluded. My personality is a dream, it is not the totality of me but the way I present myself to myself in the dream drama I call life. Great! I think I can do that for about ten seconds. AP> Lesson One is be silent, still the irritation, and listen to the sound of the Silence. That's my understanding too. In meditation, I find that "blocking" the interference magnifies it. Acceptance of the interference yet focusing on "the silence" works better for me. AP> The earthly nature of the soul is revealed by our affects, our emotions, either positive or negatively hued. To be caught up in the emotions is to severe the tie to the Divine. AP> I am a little afraid of this emphasis because I would like to incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality. I think that the object of that passion and love needs to be discerned but the actual "feelings" seem to me a way toward spirituality. If feelings are seen as more than fleeting emotional responses. "Spiritual hedonism" where a person goes from spiritual or intellectual high quickly is indeed dangerous. AP> I have experienced this many times. "Spiritual hedonism" is what is being talked about here. Feeling are closely tied to the demands of our physical body. Feelings involving "altruism", "spiritual love", "compassion" "spiritual understanding" are something else, and she encourages their development. AP> Even the fact that I am "excited" about studying Theosophy could be a reflection of severing the tie to the inner teacher. I appreciate the fact that the Silence implies that when you burn yourself out on the external issues you will eventually withdraw inside like a "turtle within the carapace of Selfhood". It is then that you can encounter God. This is truly gracious since it implies that even when caught there is something that draws us down into the Silence. There is an interesting statement in ~The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett~ where K.H. writes "We have no patience with the Sunyasis" These sunyasis are the Yogis who escape to the forest, sit in a cave to obtain enlightenment then die. The Mahatma saw it as a waste. One becomes enlightened for the service of humanity; otherwise it is just spiritual selfishness. Later in the ~Voice~ we will come a section on the Pratyeka Buddha that will cover this. AP> The Dualism that is discussed in the Silence is evident even to the extent of merging the human personality with the divine essence. I have always struggled with what that means. I have often declared "This is I" to myself. This declaration has had a variety of effects; first off, it has helped me not to over identify egotistically with the Wisdom that comes from a higher source. Secondly, it has had the effect of creating enough distance from the One in order to have what I call a relationship to the Divine. When the Silence says that this is part of the web of delusion, I would like to know more about what that means. AP> In order to become the Knower of ALL SELF thou hast first of Self to be the knower. This is because dualism is the bases of objective existence. Can we know darkness without knowing light?... The great delusion is the ignorance of oneness. But how do we experience oneness when the mind itself is dual? AP> I guess I am stuck for a while with the question as to why the beauty of knowledge and relationship "ensnares" the Disciple. I know that there is some truth to that but I am not totally convinced of Absorption either. Neither am I. I like this world too much, and don't know enough about any other. But that is precisely why we are "ensnared" here. I don't believe our next step is "absorption" anyway. I think our next step is to better learn to be in this world, but not of it. LD> The only thing I'm suffering because of that, is that I'm having such a good time jivin' with you brothers, I'm neglecting other things I'm supposed to be doing. But I'm planning to catch up on some of them in the next few days. At my age, I'm entitled to some fun. Welcome to the club. I'm supposed to be writing papers and correcting homework. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:16:38 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: Echoes of the Silence This is from Murray Stentiford. Arthur Patterson writes:- > Anyone interested in responding adding their feedback on list or off > is more than appreciated. I am just learning about Theosophy and > would like all the info I can get. .... > > The earthly nature of the soul is revealed by our > affects, our emotions, either postive or negatively > hued. To be caught up in the emotions is to severe the > tie to the Divine. > > I am a little afraid of this emphasis because I would like to > incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality. Yes, I'd like to incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality too! Having been a member of the T.S. in New Zealand for a good number of years seems to have only intensified my quest and deepened my interest in finding/applying the insights of theo-sophia in everyday life. You find a lot of answers with the T.S, and a lot of questions as well. That's how it should be, I reckon. Beginner's mind, as buddhists call it, is the way to go - all the way. A bit hard to manage sometimes, but it feels right. I see you, Arthur, as a person bringing a wealth of knowledge and experience to your present quest at the same time as feeling like a beginner with regard to the T.S. "Detachment", "passion", "desire" are words used a lot in English for aspects of the spiritual way. I am acutely aware that they are symbols subject to interpretation (yes, I was grateful for that explanation of "hermeneutic" too!), covering multiple meanings. The problem is aggravated by translation, where it has occurred. It helps to be in the originating culture and know the language. But even in English-originated speech and writing, we have ambiguity built in to words like these. I feel there's a tendency for people to think "detachment is good" or "passion is bad" without discerning adequately what exactly is good or bad. A lot of emotional self- mutilation or at least unhealthy repression has been done in the name of trying to do the best thing, with words and concepts like these. There are often many untrue or inappropriate ways to take thoughts like these (and this goes for scripture, too), and only a small number of true and appropriate ways. On desire, passion and detachment, I think that what happens is that our inner consciousness becomes temporarily incarnated in each of its many states. This is fine, as long as we can let go and move on at the right time. But we get stuck in some of them and, using an energy-flow model, can set up channels which make it easier and easier to repeat them, and harder to take an alternative. This insight links extremes like addiction and greed with less-obnoxious things, right through on a spectrum to creativity in a given arena. There's a cosmic extension here, with Divinity experiencing limitation and entrapment from above, and creativity from below, as I imagine it. It's interesting that a lot of people are waking up to the fact that we can be addicted to all sorts or things, eg love relationships etc, as the books say. So the right way (and I'm not being dogmatic here, but rather illustrative) to take "detachment is bad" is, that being stuck in something and losing our inner perspective is anti-life in that it prevents us from being or becoming what we could be. Daily consciousness itself is often a small and dimly-lighted thing, compared to some of the other states we can experience. I read somehere that in the ancient Egyptian mystery schools, resurrection was considered to be rising from the death of daily physical life, not what it is usually taken to mean today. Could somebody please confirm this about the mystery schools? We can harmonise this with the buddhist idea that all life is suffering, by considering that it is suffering compared with what our consciousness is CAPABLE of knowing/being. But this doesn't mean the earth doesn't have its beauty, life and light. Some of the wider moments of consciousness that have come my way recently, have made all this stuff seem more real, and the limitations of some states of daily life more onerous. One still seems to have to cycle in and out of relative enlightnment and relative darkness for a long time, along the way. Perhaps this bears on your > ""Spiritual hedonism" where a person goes from spiritual or > intellectual high quickly is indeed dangerous. I have experienced > this many times." . I have had periods of intense reading, almost verging on an addiction, followed by periods of having had enough of reading and just trying to work out the meanings and applications to life. As for emotion, I see it as being a part of our total makeup, and an important ingredient in being a whole person. Here again, there are darker and more limiting forms of emotion, and others that are part of the path of light, an essential part of our onward unfoldment. Harmony within is necessary before harmony in the wider body of humanity can be established. I am working with an idea at the moment that seems to show how we can direct the energy of love to the components of our individual field of consciousness, to help harmonise the many conflicting impulses and make detachment come about naturally in its most positive sense. It has to do with the theosophical idea of the monadic essence ie the outpoured divine Life, sweeping through a great arc of manifestation in kingdom after kingdom of nature. On its "downward" path, it ensouls the elemental essence of the mental, astral and physical planes successively, then on its upward path it goes through the vegetable, animal and human kingdoms, with suitably vast amounts of time for each stage. Within ourselves, we then have elemental essences of several levels. Now this is the interesting bit. We are told that the downward-travelling life waves are basically seeking more material and individualised expressions. For example the elemental essence of the mental plane is ready at an instant to take on the form that contains the energy of a thought. The emotional or astral essence is said to enjoy participating in strong or violent emotion. However, the impulse towards deeper immersion in form and matter is in the opposite direction to the impulse of the human core, heading as it is on the homeward path. It is having these two life streams within ourselves that accounts for the experiences of temptation and conflict that become sharper as we become more aware of spiritual categories and issues. We can apply love to this complex field within, not in the common sense of self-love, but through identifying with all currents within ourselves, seeing them all as expressions of the universal Life, and bringing understanding to their situation. I believe this then invokes a higher love energy, call it grace if you like, that can bring about healing and calm. This doesn't mean that we have to give way to the descending life wave all the time - just to realise that it wants a certain kind of experience, and our inner nature wants others. The two streams converge in creativity of every conceivable kind, whether it's thinking, making something, building a relationship, art, music, poetry. Even doing the dishes. (I'm still working on that one.) That's how harmony and peace can be realised. The upward-moving life stream, our inner self, has the ultimate say, through its vastly longer evolutionary experience, so it can take the reins in a harmonious and non-violent way. That's what's wrong with some of the interpretations of texts like "Kill out desire"; it's the violence which people think is being requested. I believe there's a truth, if not several levels of truth, in that saying, and that intuition can save us from a too-literal interpretation. There's an excellent portrayal of the many forms of love, and the way they can be brought to bear, or allowed to act, on the multitude of "little lives" within ourselves, as well as in our dealings with life around us, in H.K. Challoner's book "The Path of Healing", especially in chapters 7, 8 and 9. It manages to avoid most of the pitfalls in this whole area. Then, of course, the meaning of the words I and YOU ie the human self, is rich in ambiguities too, a frequent cause of misunderstanding. What I've said above contains the idea that many elements within are what they call not-self, but are nevertheless part of the field of self, inseparably joined by being expressions of the one Life within "me" and without. The one substance, in a continuous fabric with the rest of life, embraces and constitutes all beings. Paradoxically, as the extent of one's perceived self widens, there is more that we perceive as not-self, and yet the two are bound together as the One Self. The hard boundaries that are conditioned into western cultural thinking, begin to soften. It's no longer just MY life I'm living. Reminds me of how St Paul said somewhere that we are not our own; we were bought for a price. (An old memory; I hope it's correct.) That's the cosmic sacrifice, I guess. One of the great contributions of many indigenous spiritual traditions is that they hold a mirror up to the western way, the so-called dominant culture, showing how far down the track of individualism and personal isolation it has gone. This is so deeply embedded in the thought, language and customs that even when alerted to it, we can often miss it. As for absorption, I guess we're absorbed all the time. The thing is just to realise it within the field of our running-around, jumping-up-and-down consciousness as it grows in richness and scope. My consciousness is not just mine, me doesn't mean me in the old shut-off way any more. I'm very conscious of limitations in expressing, let alone conceiving, these thoughts. I wish you well. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:21:03 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: To Art P. Re: "Silence Comments" Very briefly. This is the Friday of the week-end I rent a car to run 1 million errants. Also briefly, because some of what you write I don't understand. But I do want to make 2 comments which might help. AP1 - "I would like to incorporate passion & love in my understanding of spirituality." LD - I was taught to meditate to certain Beethoven symphonies & concerti. I was given 2 sets of instructions, to do this while thinking of Love directed from the heart chakra, and while thinking of Beauty directed from the crown chakra, whatever I feel fits in with the music. After doing this for a while, it seems to me that the 2 tend to merge, Love & Beauty, heart & head. I was also taught to observe myself non judgementally. That's one teacher. Here's my notes re a healing technique called La'a kea which I learned from Serge Kahili King ("Urban Shaman", & workshop at Omega Institute. Most of his other books were published by the Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton) La'a Kea (sacred light, love light) 1. Do piko-piko 3x or more ie breathe in while concentrating on the top of the head, breathe out while concentrating on navel. This is done to center yourself, to bring up your energy level (chi, prana, mana), to connect with the power of the universe which is all around you. 2. Turn on the Light Imagine yourself surrounded by, & filled with La'a kea. (Imagine colors, sounds, music, light, feelings, symbols, patterns, whatever turns you on best, one or in combination) 3. Charge the Light - generate a positive emotion. Could be something beautiful, or stronger emotion. 4. Assume that Light exists, & that it will beam towards whatever you focus on. Assume that it will follow your instructions. You send "the Light" from the top of your head. You can give it the following instructions: "Harmonize this place" (immediate environment.) "Harmonize the energies around me" when experiencing physical or emotional distress. "Harmonize the energies between us. " or " Harmonize our fields" for a difficult relationship. "Keep this ..... in peace & harmony" To protect persons, places, or things. (I protect Chou chou in this way every time I leave her alone in my apartment. and I add the Hawaiian version of "Amen"). AP2 - you quote Calvin "the first part of knowledge of God is the knowledge of the self." You're right. That's exactly what's meant by "thou hast first of self to be the knower." I go a lot by the Hermetic axiom "As above so below." You can fathom God & Spirit by what you perceive in yourself & around you. Matter of fact, I don't know of another way of finding out what we can find out, & of guessing at the rest. In another note you asked a few personal questions. I'm in Syracuse NY, which is about 4,5 hours by car North West of New York City, and about an hour from the Canadian border. It's easiest to cross over to Kingston & Ontario. Where are you? As for my sleeping habits, I'm retired, & don't have to be to work at 9AM. I also don't have anyone except Chou chou to take care of, & she's flexible, has to be to be my cat. So I'm on a demand sleep schedule. I get up when I wake up, which is often in the middle of the night, & when I'm sleepy I take a nap, which is often in the middle of the day. There are several regulators. Chou chou often wakes me up around 4AM, when she's hungry. She tweaks my toes until I'm awake, which takes her at least 1/2 hour, but she's persistent. I take Tai Chi, & Art lessons, I go to the chiropractor, & I have to be in our dining room for dinner between 4:30 & 6. I also want to tell you that I even though Syracuse has an active New Age community, I don't know of another theosophist in Syracuse, and I've lived here for 5 years now. This is why I enjoy theos-l etc. so much. But I just joined it about 2 weeks before you came in. I had a real dinosaur of a computer, & it took me a whole year to get it upgraded enough to get E-mail. I'm also trying to start a study center, but so far, I don't know whether I'll succeed. I also thought it would be nice if you knew about the different theosophical societies, their names anyway, because I don't know too much about their differences. I belong to TS Adyar, which has its US headquarters in Wheaton Ill., & its world headquarters in Adyar, India. I think the best descritpion for us is that we're "low church". There's the ULT, the United Lodge of Theosophists, which is "high church" (I think that description fits). There's Pasadena, and I haven't a clue as to how they differ. Maybe Jerry H-E can fill you in on that one. Steiner you know about. They have a retirement community plus school plus drug store, downstate NY, just across the NY-NJ border, which I considered joining while I was still living in NJ (where I spent most of my life). There's also the Alice Bailey branch. Maybe others I don't know about. There's a movement among us to work together more. I think one of its first manifestation was a conference in New York City in the late 1980ies on ways to propagate Theosophy. I attended that, because I think that even though we're all very indivualistic, there are few enough of us that we could at least try to work together. I think Jerry H-E had a part in it. I also remember having a very warm conversation with an elderly gentleman from the ULT, during which we both expressed the sentiment that we could really work together a lot better & more easily than we do. I learned a lot at that conference. One of the offshoots of trying to unify that I know about is Dick Slusser's "High Country Theosophist". It comes out every month. If you're interested in getting it, send $7.- to Dick Slusser, 140 S 33rd St. Boulder Co. 80303. He himself is a member of several factions, & he prints up a variety of interesting material. As part of the HCT, he started something he called "Project Outreach". I am a member of it. The idea is to correspond with third world theosophical study groups, & help them with information. I correspond with the head of a group in Africa, & 1 in Russia. We'd intended to answer questions, but they're more interested in getting books to study from. So that's what we're sending, besides letters. My pride & joy is that there's a little 1 year-old girl in Zambia called Liesel Tembo. The Russians are interested in Jung, so I've been sending his works of late. A moot question. Did you ever get my fisrt missive to you, in which I listed all the resources available in the Adyar branch? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:25:09 -0500 From: JSANTUCCI@CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: Theosophy and Art Marty Bax of the Netherlands is an expert on the history of art, especially spiritual art, including Mondrian. If you need an analysis of Mondrian 's work, she is the person to contact. Most of the articles are in Dutch, but she converses well in English. If you want to pursue this and need her address, I can look it up for you. James Santucci From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:26:20 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Art, Mondrian, etc. Many thanks to Paul Gillingwater, Murray Stentiford, James Santucci, Jerry Hejka-Ekins, and Andrew Rooke for their helpful responses to my question about Mondrian and Theosophy. Now I have a reading list! I also found that reading between the lines of their responses made helpful reading as well. Theosophy clearly has a limited but important history of speculating about the nature of art and its relationship to the transcendental. I also spent some time browsing in the archives of theos-l. There have been some very stimulating discussions of art there as well; I'll continue browsing. Thanks again to you folks specifically and to theos-l generally for being here. Best, William Allen wallen@aztec.astate.edu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:28:56 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Liesel;Arthur;Theosophy Liesel and Arthur, L> My son, Bob, took my 14 year old grandson Chris to see "Schindler's List". It was just another horror movie to him, no different than "Frankenstein" or some such. Maybe for future generations Simon Wiesenthal's work will serve as a reminder to avoid another holocaust ... if they take it for real. I believe Wiesenthal has exactly this scenario in mind. The way your grandson experienced the movie is pretty typical and has caused quite a stir. Spielberg, I understand is trying to set up special educational materials in order to counter this reaction. Many school systems are also trying to respond to this crises. Our educational system has a list of important things that an educated person should know--but the list is too long and we can't teach it all anymore. Some things have to be dropped. Wiesenthal is making sure that the holocaust is not one of them-- or else ~Schindler's List~ just becomes, as you say, just another "horror movie." LD> Incidentally, having been exposed to all this makes me very aware of civil rights issues, and what's happening to the underdog ... also of certain unsavory political maneuvers, which try to abridge civil liberties. Right now, I'm a little worried, because I heard on TV that the far right is getting into politics at the grass roots, running for school boards, etc. That was a Nazi tactic. When I worry about a congenital lier like Ollie North maybe becoming Senator, the only thing that consoles me is that Nixon did some pretty underhanded things too, & so did Joe McCarthy, & we survived both. I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this. It's the truth. I spent most of my working life at the NJ State Employment Service, where most of our applicants were black, & poor. I think I went more out of my way to help them (though I wasn't the only one), because of my German Jewish background. It was a positive & tangible way of working out what had happened to us. Oh gosh, I could rant and rave for another twelve pages on that one, but I also don't want to drift to far from theosophy, which is what the theme of this net is supposed to be. The issue is representation. According to my wife's research in this area (she teaches political theory at the University here) The poor and the working class are the very people who would stand to benefit the most from the "liberals" in this country. But they are also the people least likely to vote. The poor and working class believe that their vote doesn't count and nothing can be done. The majority of voters in this country are a retired and very conservative minority. They want more jails to lock up the young drug addicts who steal their "stuff" that they have accumulated over their lives. Their kids have grown up, so education is not an immediate concern, in fact they are mistrustful of it--consider it a failure--therefore they are more than happy to divert funds from education to build more prisons. Ollie North was operating from the ethical value of "loyalty"--"My country right or wrong." Remember when the Senate told him that they had evidence that he had shredded documents to conceal the Iranian weapons deal from the Senate? North didn't deny it. He didn't say "gee, that was illegal, and I realize I shouldn't have done that"--no, he said: "Did I get all of it? Did I miss anything?" He was putting loyalty over law. From the Kohlberg scale of six, he was operating at stage three. If he was accepting payment and privileges (evidence shows he was, though he denied it), then he was also operating at stage 2. Our country operates basically at a law and order level (stage 4), but a sizeable part of our population is still at a stage three level, and our Capitalistic system is based upon stage one values (selfishness and greed). Only a minority of people operate at post conventional level of 5 or 6 (values of right and wrong-- good and evil that transcend considerations of selfishness, greed, loyalty and law). The Terry Wait, Barbara Walters interview was a classic in that matter. Wait, who operated at a stage 6 was completely incomprehensible to Walters. Wait after being beaten and tortured described his passing up of an opportunity to grab a gun and make an escape--and gave his reasons for it. It he was to stand on the principle of love and non violence, then he had to model that behavior. Walters was flabbergasted--she didn't understand it. The other week, my wife and I spent the weekend in Carmel. It is a little costal town near San Francisco that is the playground for the very wealthy. We were there because my wife was running a weekend workshop on (ironically) ethics at the Monterey Institute for International Studies, and we couldn't find a motel in Monterey. On our last evening, we took a walk together in town (Carmel). We stopped at a cafe for a capaccino and slice of carrot cake (bill was over $13.00). Most of the businesses were bars, restaurants, artist's studios, and very expensive junk shops. I don't think there was another sober person on the street other than us. When I'm in a strange environment, I like to keep my eyes and ears open, so I tuned in on the conversations of the people as they passed us. Without exception, everyone was completely self involved and angry. Three conversations in a roll ware venting anger at "those damn liberals" , and "we have to get them out of office--they are ruining the country." HPB's teachings focused upon altruism and self responsibility. What is going on today represents the polar opposite of those values. DePurucker, in ~Wind of the Spirit~ wrote that though the Theosophical Society is not itself a political organization, theosophists have a moral obligation to participate in the system to the extend of their conscience and to vote. I don't have much hope. LD> ...Certainly, when the first man touched the fire a lightning caused with his bare hands, he learned that fire hurts. But I don't think that today's method of trying to make learning fun for the kids is any less effective. I spend three hours a week in seminars discussing how to more effectively teach. You have touch upon a huge subject with a lot of history to it. We still have a lot to learn about this- -but your right, school is a lot better place for learning than when we were going there. Yet, I wonder if learning that Columbus sailed the "Ocean blue" in 1492 is the same kind of learning being burned by a fire, or being "burned" by the consequence of ones own dishonest actions? AP> The edition I have is the verbatim edition by Theosophical University Press 1992. Yes it does have end notes but not footnotes. You have to jump to the back constantly so I have transcribed the words in the margin. I like that edition. I have a mail order book business here, and that is the one I prefer to sell. However, I agree with you that end notes is a bad idea, and I wish HPB didn't do it that way. MLA has also adopted end notes for academic papers. Sometimes I get fantasies of hanging the members of that committee by the toes. I think that had a better system in the 60's with their "op cits" etc. JHE> ....HPB did not do translations in the ordinary sense of the word anyway.... AP> You have hit upon exactly what I was thinking. She is like an oral interpreter rather than a recorder. Is she is taking whatever she remembers of this text and doing spirituality around it. That is making it move beyond its original intention into something that is relevant to the concerns she and her world were grappling with. I don't have any problem with this. I think it is just one way to do spirituality. The problem is that those who read her 100 years or so later will do all kinds of things to her spirituality. This may not be as bad as it first appears since they are only following her que. How close or how far from the original documents HPB was I am in no position to judge since I have never read the Golden Precepts but how relevant her spiritual take on the material is, is something that I am exploring for myself. HPB was trying to put across a spiritual philosophy. I'm not sure if the technical correctness of her "translation" is an answerable question, because her "Book of Golden Precepts" doesn't seem to be identifiable to any known single text. In the end, it is probably just as well to treat it as an original work that has been shown to be consistent with Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. She also does this with the Book of Dzyan in ~The Secret Doctrine.~ The text that she was drawing from was unknown in her time, and she was accused of making it up. A friend of mine, who has been researching this question for the past twenty years, believes that it comes from the group of Lam Rin texts of Tsong-Kha-Pa. It seems that he has found the church, but is still looking for the pew. AP> I understand your reticence about channeling I am of the same mind but when Zirkoff mentioned the Tulku, I couldn't resist wondering if she is not having a prophetic experience similar to Ezekiel of Jeremiah....While I don't really understand the above quote it does give me cause to wonder about how to interpret texts that are written through what I used to call "inspiration". I suppose it involves a theory or revelation or some such thing. Blavasky was obviously not just what her physical presence suggested she seems to be a prophet of sorts. As such interpreting her is tricky however awe inspiring. Boris is talking about part of the consciousness of a Buddha like person(s) being present in HPB's consciousness. I wouldn't call this "inspiration." To me, inspiration is when the "god within us" is coming through. I would consider inspiration a higher state then tulku. AP> I am going to try to paraphrase, with full recognition that I am very new to all this, what I think HPB is speaking of: AP> The instruction is for those who need to learn the dangers of collectivity, animality, and living according to the lowest nature. I think also in this sloka is the warning against the pursuit of "yogic practices" for the purpose of developing "abnormal" psychic powers. AP> It is necessary to become detached from the objects of sense experience, the clutter of everyday life, in order to hear the voice of God or The Silence. This detachment require some sort of training. "God" is another word that I have problems with because of the Judeo-Christian view of a personal God-the-creator-of-the- universe with whom one can have personal intercourse. Such a concept is not in Mahayana Buddhism, nor is it in HPB's writings. There is however, an inner "god" whose voice is "The Silence." But that god is to "God" as the ray is to the sun. For God, I prefer terms like "the unknowable", or "the rootless root". I have had this conversation with many students of theosophy, who reply by swearing to me that by "God" they do not mean a "personal God", then In the next breath refer to this "God" as "He". See HPB's three fundamental propositions in ~The Secret Doctrine~, p. 14 etc. AP> Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. This reminds me of Kierkegaard and his story of Abraham and Issac as symbolizing slaying of the rationality on the mount of revelation. This is what I find so dangerous about most forms of literalism when it comes to interpreting spiritual texts. So I read this as slay the need to control what you are experiencing through the subtle and illusionary use of words and ideation. Interesting. For "control" I would use the word "overcome." AP> We are ready to understand when we see our waking life as a dream. I take this seriously. I think that when I view the personality that I think is myself as my Self then I am deluded. My personality is a dream, it is not the totality of me but the way I present myself to myself in the dream drama I call life. Great! I think I can do that for about ten seconds. AP> Lesson One is be silent, still the irritation, and listen to the sound of the Silence. That's my understanding too. In meditation, I find that "blocking" the interference magnifies it. Acceptance of the interference yet focusing on "the silence" works better for me. AP> The earthly nature of the soul is revealed by our affects, our emotions, either positive or negatively hued. To be caught up in the emotions is to severe the tie to the Divine. AP> I am a little afraid of this emphasis because I would like to incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality. I think that the object of that passion and love needs to be discerned but the actual "feelings" seem to me a way toward spirituality. If feelings are seen as more than fleeting emotional responses. "Spiritual hedonism" where a person goes from spiritual or intellectual high quickly is indeed dangerous. AP> I have experienced this many times. "Spiritual hedonism" is what is being talked about here. Feeling are closely tied to the demands of our physical body. Feelings involving "altruism", "spiritual love", "compassion" "spiritual understanding" are something else, and she encourages their development. AP> Even the fact that I am "excited" about studying Theosophy could be a reflection of severing the tie to the inner teacher. I appreciate the fact that the Silence implies that when you burn yourself out on the external issues you will eventually withdraw inside like a "turtle within the carapace of Selfhood". It is then that you can encounter God. This is truly gracious since it implies that even when caught there is something that draws us down into the Silence. There is an interesting statement in ~The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett~ where K.H. writes "We have no patience with the Sunyasis" These sunyasis are the Yogis who escape to the forest, sit in a cave to obtain enlightenment then die. The Mahatma saw it as a waste. One becomes enlightened for the service of humanity; otherwise it is just spiritual selfishness. Later in the ~Voice~ we will come a section on the Pratyeka Buddha that will cover this. AP> The Dualism that is discussed in the Silence is evident even to the extent of merging the human personality with the divine essence. I have always struggled with what that means. I have often declared "This is I" to myself. This declaration has had a variety of effects; first off, it has helped me not to over identify egotistically with the Wisdom that comes from a higher source. Secondly, it has had the effect of creating enough distance from the One in order to have what I call a relationship to the Divine. When the Silence says that this is part of the web of delusion, I would like to know more about what that means. AP> In order to become the Knower of ALL SELF thou hast first of Self to be the knower. This is because dualism is the bases of objective existence. Can we know darkness without knowing light?... The great delusion is the ignorance of oneness. But how do we experience oneness when the mind itself is dual? AP> I guess I am stuck for a while with the question as to why the beauty of knowledge and relationship "ensnares" the Disciple. I know that there is some truth to that but I am not totally convinced of Absorption either. Neither am I. I like this world too much, and don't know enough about any other. But that is precisely why we are "ensnared" here. I don't believe our next step is "absorption" anyway. I think our next step is to better learn to be in this world, but not of it. LD> The only thing I'm suffering because of that, is that I'm having such a good time jivin' with you brothers, I'm neglecting other things I'm supposed to be doing. But I'm planning to catch up on some of them in the next few days. At my age, I'm entitled to some fun. Welcome to the club. I'm supposed to be writing papers and correcting homework. Jerry Hejka-Ekins (the above message resent--as it seems to have bounced Thursday) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:30:47 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: Echoes of the Silence (2nd transmission) By Murray Stentiford. NB: As my first transmission of this piece didn't reach me from the net, I am sending it again, with some editing. Please discard the first version if you happened to get it. Arthur Patterson writes:- > Anyone interested in responding adding their feedback on list or > off is more than appreciated. I am just learning about Theosophy > and would like all the info I can get. .... > > The earthly nature of the soul is revealed by our > affects, our emotions, either postive or negatively > hued. To be caught up in the emotions is to severe the > tie to the Divine. > > I am a little afraid of this emphasis because I would like to > incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality. Yes, I'd like to incorporate passion and love in my understanding of spirituality too! Being a member of the T.S. for a good number of years seems to have only intensified my quest and deepened my interest in finding/applying the insights of theo-sophia in everyday life. You get a lot of answers within the T.S, and a lot of questions as well. That's how it should be, I reckon. Beginner's mind, in the buddhist phrase, is the way to go - all the way. A bit hard to achieve sometimes, but it feels right. You seem to me, Arthur, to be somebody who brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to your present quest notwithstanding feeling like a beginner with regard to the T.S. "Detachment", "passion", "desire" are words used a lot in English for aspects of the spiritual way. I am acutely aware that they are symbols subject to interpretation (yes, I was grateful for that explanation of "hermeneutic" too!), covering multiple meanings. The problem of finding the "right" meaning or a right meaning is aggravated when translation is involved. There's no doubt it helps to be in the originating culture and to know the language. But even in English-originated speech and writing, we have ambiguity built in to words like these. I feel that people sometimes think "detachment is good" or "passion is bad" without discerning adequately what exactly is good or bad. A lot of emotional self- mutilation or at least unhealthy repression has been done in the name of trying to do the best thing, with words and concepts like these. There are often many untrue or inappropriate ways to take thoughts like these (and this goes for scripture, too), and only a small number of true or appropriate ways. On desire, passion and detachment, I think that what happens is that our inner consciousness becomes temporarily incarnated in each of its many states. This is fine, as long as we can let go and move on at the right time. But we get stuck in some of them and, using an energy-flow model, can set up channels which make it easier and easier to repeat them, and harder to take an alternative. This insight links extremes like addiction and greed with less-obnoxious things, right through on a spectrum to creativity itself. There's a cosmic extension here, with Divinity experiencing limitation and entrapment from above, and creativity from below, as I imagine it. It's interesting that a lot of people are waking up to the fact that we can be addicted to all sorts or things, eg love relationships etc, as the books say. So the right way (and I'm not being dogmatic here, but rather illustrative) to take "detachment is bad" is, that it is anti-life to be stuck in something and losing our inner perspective, ie it prevents us from being or becoming what we could be. Daily consciousness itself is often a small and dimly-lighted thing, compared to some of the other states we can experience. I read somehere that in the ancient Egyptian mystery schools, resurrection was considered to be rising from the death of daily physical life, DURING physical life, not its meaning of today. Could somebody please check this for me? There's a correspondence with the buddhist idea that all life is suffering, in that life is suffering compared with what our consciousness is CAPABLE of knowing/being. But this doesn't mean the earth doesn't have its beauty, life and light. Some of the wider moments of consciousness that have come my way recently, have made all this stuff seem more real, and the limitations of some states of daily life more onerous. One still seems to have to cycle in and out of relative enlightenment and relative darkness for a long time along the way. Perhaps this bears on your > ""Spiritual hedonism" where a person goes from spiritual or > intellectual high quickly is indeed dangerous. I have > experienced this many times." . I have had periods of intense reading, almost verging on addiction, followed by periods of having had enough of reading and just trying to work out the meanings and applications to life. As for emotion, I see it as being a part of our total makeup, and an important ingredient in being a whole person. Here again, there are darker and more limiting forms of emotion, and others that are part of the path of light, an essential part of our onward unfoldment. Harmony within is necessary before harmony in the wider body of humanity can be established. The thought that comes to me in response to Arthur's musings on relationship with the Divine, is that we have separation, relationship and connectedness all at once, with the Divine and with everything in the web of manifestation. Manifestation in turn, has appearance or the way things look to each localised being, and "appearance" is an alternative to "delusion" as a translation of Maya. Maybe this is a key to > "relationship ... being part of the web of delusion". It's the negative connotations of "delusion" that have to be put in their right place. So, in a structural sense we have separation, relationship and connectedness but, more fundamentally, there's a unity of cosmic substance and the unity of the field of consciousness of the Divine. Arthur quotes from the Silence and from Calvin: > In order to become the Knower of ALL SELF thou hast > first of Self to be the knower. > > The first part of knowledge of God is the knowledge > of the self. I reckon the word "self" is one of the most overworked words in theosophical and mystical literature, loaded with multiple meanings, in archeological layers! But what else can we do in English? Invent new words, I suppose is one answer. Another is to invest old ones with new insights and let them all co-exist, to be savoured and filtered by intuition guided by the conventions of the context. Like Sanskrit ... . I'm going to unashamedly use the word "self" in many different ways, without any special elucidation, so here goes. It is sometimes said that as we unfold spiritually, we come to see more and more of ourselves as not-self. Yet at the same time, the extent of our self widens as we move towards yogic unification in consciousness with the field of life around us and its living heart. It's a process of increasing objectivisation of the elements within ourselves that I believe is what Vipassana is all about, and the realisation that what's within is not just within, but is deeply connected to the without. In fact, "within" starts to be a very inadequate word. It's more like discovering a universe in the consciousness that we're used to calling our own. It's no longer just MY life I'm living. Reminds me of how St Paul said somewhere that we are not our own; we were bought for a price. The cosmic sacrifice. There are deeply ingrained misconceptions and rigidities in western cultural thinking in this whole area. One of the great contributions of many indigenous spiritual traditions is that they hold a mirror up to the western way, the so-called dominant culture, showing how far down the track of individualism and personal isolation it has gone. This is so deeply embedded in the thought, language and customs that, even when alerted to it, we can often miss it. I am working with an idea at the moment that seems to show how we can direct the energy of love to the components of our individual field of consciousness, to help harmonise the many conflicting impulses and make detachment come about naturally in its most positive sense. It has to do with the theosophical idea of the monadic essence ie the outpoured divine Life, sweeping through a great arc of manifestation in kingdom after kingdom of nature. On its "downward" path, it ensouls the elemental essence of the mental, astral and physical planes successively, then on its upward path it goes through the vegetable, animal and human kingdoms, with suitably vast amounts of time for each stage. Within ourselves, then, we have elemental essences or life-energies of several levels. Now this is the interesting bit. We are told that the downward-travelling life waves are basically seeking more material and individualised expressions. For example the elemental essence of the mental plane is ready at an instant to take on the form that contains the energy of a thought. The emotional or astral essence is said to enjoy participating in strong or violent emotion. However, the impulse towards deeper immersion in form and matter is in the opposite direction to the impulse of the human core, heading as it is on the homeward path. It is having these two directions of the life stream within us that accounts for the experiences of temptation and conflict that become sharper as we become more aware of spiritual categories and issues. We can apply love to this complex field within, not in the common sense of self-love which is a paltry and rather negative thing, but by identifying with all the elements within ourselves, seeing them all as expressions of the universal Life, and bringing understanding to their situation. I believe this then invokes a higher love energy, call it grace if you like, that can bring about healing and clarity. This doesn't mean that we have to give way to the descending life wave all the time - just to realise that it wants a certain kind of experience, and our inner nature wants others. You can invoke such healing for other selves too, of course. One of the major ways the opposing currents can be brought together and harmonised is in creativity of every conceivable kind, whether it's thinking, making something, building a relationship, art, music, poetry. Even mowing the lawn. (I'm still working on that one.) This is a way the upward stream and the down-flowing form-building stream can synchronise and work together. The upward-moving life stream, our inner self, has the right to make decisions through its vastly longer evolutionary experience, and will do so as it comes into its natural rulership, in a harmonious and non-violent way. In states of addiction etc, the downward stream seems to have the say, for the time being, while the upward stream is temporarily sunk in the situation. What's wrong with some of the interpretations of texts like "Kill out desire", I feel, is the violence which people think is being requested. Intuition can save us from too-literal interpretations, and lead us to a healthy, joyful and natural understanding. There's an excellent portrayal of the many expressions of love, and the way they can be brought to bear on the multitude of voices and impulses within ourselves, and our dealings with the life around us, in H.K. Challoner's book "The Path of Healing", especially in chapters 8 and 9. I think it manages to avoid most of the pitfalls in this whole area. As for absorption, I guess we're absorbed all the time. The thing is to realise it within the field of our running-around, jumping-up-and-down consciousness as it grows in richness and scope. I'm rather conscious of limitations in expressing, let alone conceiving, these thoughts, but I'm encouraged by HPB's example in saying of the ultimate reality that all speculation [on it] is impossible, and then proceeding to write several hundred pages about it! May it be well with you. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:32:18 -0500 From: euser Subject: science/religion/theosophy discussion Thanks for your interest in discussing Theosophy and science,etc. (John, Jerry, others?). Especially thanks to John Mead for taking the trouble to compile his booklist and his willingness to share his knowledge with others. Thanks to Murray Stentiford for forwarding John's message. Thank you, Arthur Paul Patterson, for inviting me to join discussion. What I like to propose for a start is discussing Hodson's research and results regarding AB/CWL findings and his crystal research. I understand that John had a part in this. So, John, what do you think about this proposal? My special interest lies in understanding something of the basic (deductive) principles underlying phenomena (in this case: crystal structure and formation, etc.). Also, I'm very interested in how we can apply these principles in an analogical manner. I understand that Theosophy is a philosophy of correspondences: so above, so below and vice versa. Jerry Hejka-Ekins ,this may interest you also, because Sacred Geometry must be involved in this subject. Please let me know what you think about this proposal (especially John: do you want to present some of Hodson's and your findings?) BTW, John, we have a Foundation in Holland, called Skepsis, which has done research in telepathy for many years. As the name implies, the researchers involved are very critical about claims for telepathy, etc. To their own surprise, they had to conclude that telepathy exists beyond any reasonable doubt. They published their findings at the begin of this year (or end of last year), I think. Jerry Schueler: I'm certainly interested to read and discuss your work. I will have to read it first. Then I will be able (hopefully) to discuss it with you and others (if interested). Martin Euser xs4all The Netherlands From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:49:18 -0500 From: euser Subject: To Art. P. Re: another 'Silence comments' >Any help out here? I think I understand what you mean. Spiritual hedonism is not the right attitude towards life. The true theosophist _must_ work in this world. First of all, he should do his duty towards others. He must work _in_ this world, but he is not necessarily _from_ this world, if you get my point. The theosophist and certainly the chela makes his personality transparent to the Spirit within and becomes a 'vehicle' or means for Spirit to express itself in this world, bringing vibrations of harmony and compassion into the world's mental & emotional atmospheres. The chela and even the 'ordinary' theosophist must learn to balance his thoughts, in order to arrive at a 'sattvic' or tranquil state of his mind, enabling the spiritual energies to flow into his mind. This, we can learn from the Bhagavad Gita: the immortal teachings of Krishna. We can learn to stand above the pairs of opposites. BTW, sattva is one of the three guna's or qualities that play a major role in nature's processes. Sattva is connected with the idea of harmony, Reality and balance. Also, Arthur, emotions have a higher aspect: involvement with others, caring for others. This is an important point to realize for all theosophists. The disciple may be temporarily 'ensnared' by _his_ experience with spirituality, but he must learn to stand above this experience, as that is a kind of illusion too, one of the traps on the Path so to speak. One word about 'the relationship to the Divine'. Theosophy declares that we have a Divine element _in_ ourselves. But this is not the same as the 'One Unknowable Principle', that is not manifested itself. The Divine element is an _emanation_ or radiation from the One Principle. So, even Buddha Gautama has 'a relationship with the Unknowable', although being extremely high developped, there still being higher Hierarchies of life. The 'absorption' you speak of is only on a relative scale (in the manifest world), never absolute, I guess. I hope this doesn't make it all more confused to you Arthur. But I do feel the need to present a larger picture of the Kosmos. You mentioned William Quan Judge. He is the author of the letters that are collected in the book: "letters that have helped me". You may find this book extremely usefull in contributing to your understanding of discipleship. At least it was so for me and many others. Enough now. Feel free to discuss any of these difficult, sometimes very metaphysical issues. We can all learn from this. Martin Euser xs4all Netherlands From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:52:23 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: science/religion/theosophy - clarification Martin Euser writes: > Thanks for your interest in discussing Theosophy and science,etc. > (John, Jerry, others?). Especially thanks to John Mead for taking > the trouble to compile his booklist and his willingness to share > his knowledge with others. > Thanks to Murray Stentiford for forwarding John's message. > ... > What I like to propose for a start is discussing Hodson's research > I understand that John had a part in this. > ... > (especially John: do you want to present some of Hodson's and your > findings?) Martin, I don't know what John may have sent you off the list, on this subject, but a reference to Hodson research and a booklist were in a message originated by me. Perhaps the message had to be forwarded by John. I recall I had a case of a message that wasn't received properly by the list server around that time, and I asked John to help. The problem seemed to be that I had the word "from" in the first line of the message, which I now abstain from doing! I haven't forwarded any message from John on this subject. I'll respond on the topic when this is clarified. Thanks, John, for your help and support. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:53:39 -0500 From: IXCHEL@delphi.com Subject: principles again..... To Jerry H-E, Back to the seven principles..... Pranayama is an exercise of the breath which has as its objective the control and expansion of the life force. How exactly does this happen and what is the relationship of the principle PRANA to the prana which yogis speak of? The principles have been called by other names such as: bodies or sheaths. What takes place in these principles/bodies when the process spoken of in The Voice of the Silence is experienced, and how are the planets we see in orbit related to this experience and the principles? You mentioned a meditation in a past communication, one which assisted chelas or students to develop control of their emotions and desires. Could you speak a bit more about this. I have been out of town for awhile and was very glad to see you're still here...............Sarah... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:54:33 -0500 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Echoes of the Silence MURRAY@sss.co.nz writes: > Yes, I'd like to incorporate passion and love in my understanding > of spirituality too! Having been a member of the T.S. in New > Zealand for a good number of years seems to have only intensified > my quest and deepened my interest in finding/applying the > insights of theo-sophia in everyday life. You find a lot of > answers with the T.S, and a lot of questions as well. That's how > it should be, I reckon. Beginner's mind, as buddhists call it, > is the way to go - all the way. A bit hard to manage sometimes, > but it feels right. I see you, Arthur, as a person (a lot deleted) > I'm very conscious of limitations in expressing, let alone > conceiving, these thoughts. I wish you well. > > > Murray Stentiford > murray@sss.co.nz Thanks for the great post, Murray - no dry husks of knowledge these. ASTREA (aka Joanne, remember?) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:28:40 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: various writings since Wed 11-2 You guys are really with it. I'm learning partly, & partly refreshing things I used to know. What a pleasure to read you all! Hope it doesn't get confusing, if I just put my 2-cents worth in in chronological order. ART P. "The belief in a hereafter ... I am hoping to strengthen my belief in this through my studies in theosophy." It hasn't really been stated by anyone so far that we believe in reincarnation. We consider it the way of evolution of the human spirit. One spirit grows a number of bodies, the way a hollyhock grows a new stem with flowers each year. You're in the body to learn, but it's a learning that advances along the spiritual path. We believe that we've evloved through mineral, vegetable, & animal bodies, (repeated by the human foetus) & a regression is the great exception, one in several million, something of that proportion. Our belief is that a long time-span from now we'll all have evolved into perfected men without any faults, with all the wisdom, and with no further Karma to work out. When the body dies its life goes on in a hierarchy of other realms of being, which are also part of our make-up now ... first the astral - emotional, then the 2 mentals, lower & upper, finally devachan where the person is surrounded by all the positive, loving, beautiful things & people to which it was related during life in the body. Someone who loved to study will find lots of books to learn from etc.; all the people they loved etc. Very brief description. There are stages beyond devachan, but they're rather unreachable. There are tomes & tomes on how reincarnation works. When the person has digested everything from their past life, they are ready to redescend into another incarnation, brought there by the Karma they haven't as yet learned to work out. They reincarnate in a body to learn some more. Bodies will variously be male, female, of all races, of all kinds of physical condition, because all of these have to be experienced & learned before a human being is perfected. Another view of reincarnation, which appeals to me is that whatever you manage to learn in this incarnation will be easier for you to learn again in the next incarnations, and it will also be easier for someone else to pick up after you've learned it. Ones learning accrues to oneself & to all mankind. It's a great motivator for me to keep on learning & poking into new things that interest me. References: Again I know the ones Adyar publishes. There's a real nice one by Geoffrey Hodson, describing telepathically how a foetus develops, don't remember the exact title; a fairly new one by John Algeo, "Reincarnation Explored"; also a new one by Anton Grosz, "Letters to A Dying Friend" a Westernized version of the "Tibetan Book of The Dead"; lots of books by C W Leadbeater about what experiences on the other side might be like, and what various states of being might look like. To ART P - "Voice" - "Let the disciple slay the Slayer". As you can see .. lots of interpretations. One I've heard about is that this refers to trying to still the mind when you want to meditate, because once you've gotten the hang of stilling the mind, you'll be able to listen to the Voice of the Silence within you. Stilling the mind takes training. You don't suppress. When your mind wanders, you gently bring it back to whatever you're meditating on. You try to sharpen your focus. They talk about reaching one-pointedness. To ART P. - Addition to my "Silence Comments" of 11-4 re emotions & detachment. I mentioned 2 teachers, the one who taught me to meditate, & the one who taught me to heal (I'm far from being an expert at either, but I'm trying). I brought up their teachings as examples of how one can use emotions. I consider both of these men as well advanced along the human spiritual ladder. Both are very loving men. You notice this, you can feel it. But it's rather that they love mankind, and you happen to be there before them, & they deal with you as the present specimen of mankind who needs their attention. Then they go on to the next person who needs their attention. As far as attachments are concerned, they both love their wives & families dearly, which to me are very positive attachments. I don't think we'll outgrow that kind of attachment any time soon ... maybe when we get back to being hermaphrodites, maybe. ART P. - "I-Thou language breaks down in the upper reaches of mystic experience. I do, however, remember reading something very akin to Eastern notion in Meister Eckhart & the Rhineland mystics" Are you familiar with Abe Maslow and his account of people's "peak experiences"? I've always wondered whether they measured up to the mystical experiences of a Meister Eckhart. ART P. 11-4 "just a friendly Hi from Art" Let me tell you something about being sexist. You thought you were writing to a male. I automatically assume the same thing, that I'm writing to a male, when I write to someone, unless informed otherwise. It's the way we've been brought up to think. I'm just having sort of a research quibble with our library in Wheaton because it occurred to me that I have all male role models, and I thought that as a female, I should really have some female ones. But I'm looking for female archetype kinds of role models. There's Isis who was a goddess after my own heart. She took care of anyone who asked for her help, & mothered them. There's Quan Yin, but I haven't been able to find out too much about her, she's the Bodhisattva of Compassion. There's Mary, but I don't know any more about Mary than that she gave birth to Jesus, the Christ. What else does she represent? The library came up with Theano, the wife of Pythagoras, and a Tibetan lady Kandro Tsering Chodron, also the Egyptian Hypathia. There's HPB, but she was a chela not a Master. Well, at least the Masters were training her to become one of them. I get a lot of mail addressed to "Mr. Liesel". To English speakers, it just seems to sound like a man's name. The actual tranlation is "Lizzy". During the middle ages there was die Ganse Liesel, the Liesel who minded the geese, and her male partner is Hans. Hans und Liesel go together in German folk stories. You see, some things have stuck from my German childhood. Is your wife's name April? "The majority of voters in this country are retired and very conservative minority." Have you been taking birdseye views of my retirement community? I thought it was because I was now living in very conservative upstate New York. Please include me out of that bunch ... also my 98 year-old friend G.G. We're in favor of "Midnight Basketball" rather than "building more prisons." There's got to be some sanity amongst us. Only a few in this building have Altzheimers. I'm sorry you don't have much hope. I always do. I don't dare have much hope for this election though. Poor Clinton! Poor us! I've been watching local debates on C-Span. Boy they're fighting filthy dirty, all over the country. Also issues seem to be the same nationwide. Claire & I, & the whole Cosocny membership went to a Mario Cuomo rally this AM, with hope in our hearts. Cosocny is retired people representing various Sr. Cit. organization, & our function is to keep on top of legislation that concerns Sr. Cit. at various levels of government. We then bring it back to whatever organization we represent. We meet at the UAW hall, & most of us are unionists. Our biggest concern before Summer was health care. And my special selfish concern is adding home care to Medicare. But I'm also concerned about the violence I've witnessed around me, especially lately, and I think its roots are in the non-existent home, which I think should now be supplemented by community groups who can make up for what's lacking at home, like decent role models, & meals. I've also for a long time favored more popular vocational schools for non- college bound kids. I'm also for legalizing drugs, on the assumption that it will take the profit motive out of the drug trade, & hence the incentive to entice new kids. Real easy answers for multicultural problems. I'm not too keen to get into how HPB got her material, but does the fact that she was highly telepathic have anything to do with it? You tell about having written a paper on Chaos Theory. I'd love to read it, but don't know how to get into the theos-l archives. Can you tell me how that's done? Also once I've read it, would you be willing to answer some questions? I got 1 book on the subject out of the library not too long ago, & it didn't make much sense. TO: MARTIN EUSER Re: science/religion/theosophy discussion Don't know what John Mead's reading list to you consists of. In case this fairly new book isn't mentioned, might I suggest "Earth Energy" by Serge Kahili King, PhD? It's published by the Theosophical Publishing House (Adyar), Box 270, Wheaton Ill. 60189. Serge goes into the history of research done on what we call prana, the Hawaiians call mana, the Chinese chi, and every researcher covered in the book calls by another name. There's also a section on crystals, dowsing, pyramids, Serge's own research, & hints re some items which still need to be researched. I'm trying to remember what else he covers, but can't. My ex nephew in law has my copy just now. The end, I've actually caught up on all of you in 1 evening. After 5 years of no theosophical discourse you're all a pleasure. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 23:39:38 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: Re: various writings Liesel writes:- > References: Again I know the ones Adyar publishes. There's a > real nice one by Geoffrey Hodson, describing telepathically how a > foetus develops, don't remember the exact title; a fairly new one > by John Algeo, > > .... > I'm just having sort of a research quibble with our library in > Wheaton because it occurred to me that I have all male role > models, and I thought that as a female, I should really have some > female ones. But I'm looking for female archetype kinds of role > models. There's Isis, ... Quan Yin, ... Mary, ... Theano, ... > Kandro Tsering Chodron, ... Hypathia, [and] HPB. I think the Hodson book you mean is "The Miracle of Birth". It's a unique and special book indeed. A clairvoyant observation of birth itself is in the leaflet "A Glimpse of Our Lady" by Phoebe Payne Bendit, published by the Theosophical Parents' Centre or some similar branch of the Theosophical Order of Service in America. This is a lovely piece - bears on your female archetype question too. Just the glimpse of a glimpse you get by reading it is pretty amazing. Let me know if you want it and can't find a copy. Another female role model you might have heard of is Hildegaard of Bingen, of medieval times. She did just about everything. An all-embracing mystic. I enjoy your pieces, Liesel. They've brought more than one smile to my face as I sit in the office and read each new missive that wings its way in from theos-l@vnet.NET. Murray Stentiford murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:20:56 -0500 From: mike@planet8.sp.paramax.com (Michael W. Grenier) Subject: Re: Liesel;Arthur;Theosophy Jerry, > Oh gosh, I could rant and rave for another twelve pages on >that one, but I also don't want to drift to far from theosophy, >which is what the theme of this net is supposed to be. The issue >is representation. According to my wife's research in this area >(she teaches political theory at the University here) The poor >and the working class are the very people who would stand to >benefit the most from the "liberals" in this country. But they >are also the people least likely to vote. The poor and working >class believe that their vote doesn't count and nothing can be >done. The majority of voters in this country are a retired and >very conservative minority. They want more jails to lock up the >young drug addicts who steal their "stuff" that they have >accumulated over their lives. Their kids have grown up, so >education is not an immediate concern, in fact they are >mistrustful of it--consider it a failure--therefore they are more >than happy to divert funds from education to build more prisons. Being very much on the right end of the political spectrum, I have to make a few observations: 1) I believe your wife's assesments are correct. 2) Charles Murray's book "The Bell Curve" provides some fascinating insight into these problems. 3) To some extent, I also feel that PUBLIC education is a failure. My children, ages 3, 5, 7, are now in a private school where they are not limited to the lowest common demoniator. Parents are upset. The public school spends 4 times what this private school spends per pupil but the private school seems to do a better job (at least according to tests). Many of our friends who are not as fortunate to be able to afford a private school end up home schooling. Yet, if the public school district provide, let's say, $1000 of the $4500 they spend per student and give that money to the parents if the parents agree to put there child in a private school, the district would actually save money and the child would get a better education. > Ollie North was operating from the ethical value of > "loyalty"--"My country right or wrong." From the > Kohlberg scale of six, he was operating at stage three. > Only a minority of people operate at > post conventional level of 5 or 6 (values of right and wrong-- > good and evil that transcend considerations of selfishness, > greed, loyalty and law). Perhaps Ollie was considering the good of supporting the freedom fighters in Central America. Unlike you, I don't know him well enough to judge. I suppose that G. Washington and others were also judged a 3 since they disobeyed the laws of the land at that time. This nation and this planet do have some serious problems and books like The Bell Curve show how difficult it is going to be to make improvement. Still we must TRY. -Mike Grenier Michael W. Grenier mike@planet8.sp.paramax.com 612-456-7869 Unisys - Air Traffic Control From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:21:52 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: principles; NY networking Sarah, Glad to find you back--I thought that you might have forever disappeared into cyberspace. I want to start by finally responding to a question you asked some months ago concerning the September chart for the T.S. HPB penned a footnote to a comment concerning the founding of the T.S. She was responding to a statement that the T.S. was founded 17 Nov. 1875. She wrote: "Formally; yet in truth it was founded on 7th Sept. 1875 at my house in 46 Irving Place New York" (See BCW Vol. 1, p.123). Unfortunately, the records of this meeting does not give times, but they do mention that it convened in the "evening." Sept. 7th was a Tuesday. My guess is that the meeting probably began around seven. George Felt gave a talk, and the suggestion concerning the formation of the T.S. occurred afterward, during discussion. This must have occurred sometime after 8:00 p.m. Thus, I would look between 8 and 11 for the founding time of the T.S. as HPB would have it. S> Pranayama is an exercise of the breath which has as > its objective the control and expansion of the life > force. How exactly does this happen and what is the > relationship of the principle PRANA to the prana which > yogis speak of? The principles have been called by > other names such as: bodies or sheaths. What takes > place in these principles/bodies when the process > spoken of in The Voice of the Silence is experienced, > and how are the planets we see in orbit related to > this experience and the principles? You mentioned a > meditation in a past communication, one which assisted > chelas or students to develop control of their emotions > and desires. Could you speak a bit more about this. Wow! I'm not sure where to start. Perhaps we need to break things down a bit, and start with your passing comment that principles have been called by other names such as bodies and sheaths. I think the teachings concerning the seven principles has been one of the real stumbling blocks for the understanding of Theosophical teachings, because they have been so mutilated by later writers. They have come down to us in a hopeless confusion of rhetoric. Without going into detail as to how this happened, just let me say that "principles," "bodies" and "sheaths" are not synonymous terms, and derived from very different systems. Now prana, to be perfectly correct, is not a principle, but an aspect of jiva ("life"). On this plane, it is the organizing force in matter. Though pana is an aspect of life, it is really the primary cause of physical death. That is why prana is such a big subject in hatha yoga, where they have exercises that are supposed to "regulate" the flow of prana, therefore maintaining physical health etc. They do this by special breathing exercises which HPB, by the way, does not recommend. ~The Voice of the Silence~ concerns itself with the moving of consciousness from the lower to the Higher Self--from Kama- Manas to Buddhi, in terms of principles, but I think that can be misleading. There is a correlation between the planets and principles. They are listed in the E.S. Instructions, BCW vol. 12. I've been experimenting with them, and I'm convinced that there is a whole other level of understanding of the functions of the planets here, that has been completely lost. We are used to reading horoscopes psychologically now-a-days. But I think there are some very profound insights in a horoscope when one applies HPB's correlations. Look at the Greek myths, and interpret them esoterically, and there is a whole world of material for esoteric astrology. For instance, Venus corresponds to manas, and Artemis, to one of the occult aspects of the moon (Bhakti in this case). Hippolytus (the to be failed initiate), who has taken a vow of chastity and to the worship of Artemis, still had to reckon with Aphrodite (not sex, but the karmic burden of who he is). One cannot reach enlightenment by skipping rungs. Venus is bound to Saturn (Kama to Manas) and Hippolytus cannot escape his own karma through devotionalism and denial. As for meditations that "bring control of emotions and desires"--all decent forms of meditation will get one to that point eventually. A direct way is to use one's own thoughts, perceptions and feelings as the object of meditation. In this exercise, one observes one's own thoughts etc. in a manner where a measured amount of time is given to each. For instance, imagine yourself sitting by a river. As each thought/feeling etc, arises, imagine it on a leaf floating by you on the river. observe it moving away from you and disappearing into the distance. Each thought that arises becomes a new leaf floating down the river. It is a Buddhist method--however they use logs instead of leaves. But I like trees the way they are. Anyway, give it ten minutes a day, increasing to twenty after a couple of weeks to a month. Work with it for about a month before deciding whether it is useful or not. Meditation takes patience more than anything else. Liesel, L> There's a movement among us to work together more. I think one of its first manifestation was a conference in New York City in the late 1980ies on ways to propagate Theosophy. I attended that, because I think that even though we're all very individualistic, there are few enough of us that we could at least try to work together. I think Jerry H-E had a part in it. I also remember having a very warm conversation with an elderly gentleman from the ULT, during which we both expressed the sentiment that we could really work together a lot better & more easily than we do. I learned a lot at that conference. I guess we met and never spoke to each other. Strange how karma works. We know all of the same people but never actually met. That New York conference was organized by Michael Revere, my wife and I. My presentation was on techniques for promulgating theosophy that we had developed. I also showed a portion of a historical video. That was in 1986. The elderly gentleman was probably Joe Pope who was the head of the New York ULT. He passed away recently. The conference was one of a series of "networking" conferences that were done all over the world at the time. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 17:52:09 -0500 From: John Mead Subject: Log files now available Hi -- the new Oct 1994 log files are now available from the listserver archives as well as the vnet ftp site (and also netcom.com ftp /pub/eldon/theos-l ). tl9410.log (Theos-L log file) tn9410.log (Theos-News log file) thanks again to Eldon for cleaning the text files up and adjusting line lengths etc.!! peace -- john mead jem@vnet.net p.s. if you need help accessing these feel free to send personal e-mail to me. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 18:33:44 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: education;ethics;geometry etc. Liesel, LD> But I'm looking for female archetype kinds of role models. My all type favorite woman is Athena. All through the Odyssey she kept both Odysseus and Telemachus out of trouble. She was also Telemachus' mentor. What better role model than the goddess of wisdom? LD> Is your wife's name April? Yes LD> But I'm also concerned about the violence I've witnessed around me, especially lately, and I think its roots are in the non-existent home, which I think should now be supplemented by community groups who can make up for what's lacking at home, like decent role models, & meals. I've also for a long time favored more popular vocational schools for non- college bound kids. I'm also for legalizing drugs, on the assumption that it will take the profit motive out of the drug trade, & hence the incentive to entice new kids. Real easy answers for multicultural problems. Yes, I think community involvement is a key, but the 60's have passed. Since I teach writing, current events is always a topic for discussion in my class--but the silence and apathy concerning anything that is going on around us is awesome. My students write me in their journals that they don't care what is going on just as long as it doesn't personally affect them. I've made it part of my job to get these students to realize that everything affects them in one way or another. I don't care what their politics are--I just want them to think about it. When my wife teaches American Government, she requires every student to put in a certain number of hours of community service during the semester. Very few ever had this experience and complain bitterly when they learn that it is a requirement to pass the course. Some even drop the class to avoid it. But most of her students by the end of the semester report their community service to be a positive experience, and some even continue to do it on their own. Vocational schools would help a lot. There aren't enough of them. Los Angeles has two that I know of, but more applications than they have room for. My daughter applied to one in Los Angeles, and was put on a five year waiting list. If drugs are legalized (as heroin was in England) it would have to go under government control. I can just see the tobacco companies converting to marijuana production. The problem is that free enterprise is just as amoral as the black market. The only significant thing that makes them different is that one is bound by laws, where the other profits by them. LD> I'm not too keen to get into how HPB got her material, but does the fact that she was highly telepathic have anything to do with it? Probably. But the point is that HPB was well read; she saw more of the world than almost anybody at that time; and she had a privileged personal relationship with some good teachers. She was also very a very intuitive and talented person. It was part of HPB's personality to draw credit away from herself to her teachers. I think we need to start with HPB and give her the full credit that she deserves, before going on to the part her teachers played. Mike Grenier, MG> Being very much on the right end of the political spectrum, I > have to make a few observations: > > 1) I believe your wife's assesments are correct. > > 2) Charles Murray's book "The Bell Curve" provides some > fascinating insight into these problems. > > 3) To some extent, I also feel that PUBLIC education is a > failure. > My children, ages 3, 5, 7, are now in a private school where > they are not limited to the lowest common demoniator. > Parents are upset. The public school spends 4 times what > this private school spends per pupil but the private school > seems to do a better job (at least according to tests). Many > of our friends who are not as fortunate to be able to afford > a private school end up home schooling. Yet, if the public > school district provide, let's say, $1000 of the $4500 they > spend per student and give that money to the parents if the > parents agree to put there child in a private school, the > district would actually save money and the child would get a > better education. It is precisely because the private schools are not "limited to the lowest common dominator" that they are able to offer a better education. Those parents who put their children in private schools are not the minorities struggling to find even a minimum wage job, who live at a poverty level in substandard housing, who barely speak English if at all. The public schools take these children, and they have to educate them along with the rest. My writing class, though University level, is typical of what is going on around the country. Out of 14 students, I have two who grew up in Mexico on farms, and one first generation Mexican; one woman from Laos who remembers migrating up and down the mountains to avoid troop movements; one from Thailand who decries the "Americanization" of her country; one from India; one Japanese American; one Assyrian; and two black students. Of my four "white" students, one is a disabled Vietnam vet, and one has serious learning disabilities. That leaves two out of fourteen who don't need special consideration--but they can't afford private schools. The difficulties involved in teaching multicultural classes are far more complex than they might seem on the surface. We meet three hours a week with specialists to discuss teaching techniques. Most of this time involves issues concerning the needs of different minorities. Before the seventies, schools were pretty monocultural, and before the mid-sixties, most schools were pretty segregated, either by law or by redlining. Even in Los Angeles, where I grew up, I was ten or eleven years old before I met and talked to my first black person. Before that, I had no concept of race. Even with this meeting, it was this black woman who pointed out to me her racial differences. In Elementary school during my generation, we had "Dick and Jane" readers. Dick and Jane were two children living in an upper middle class house in the suburbs of Chicago in the 1930's. They lived in a all white neighborhood with a dog (Spot) and a cat (Puff). On weekends, they took the train to visit grandma, or to play on the beach of lake Michigan. Can you get in touch with how irrelevant this is to most children today? At one meeting recently, we were reviewing readers for elementary and Jr. High. One of the stories was about cowboys driving cattle across the Texas rangeland to market. At the end were questions for comprehension, and a space for the students to write other questions that occurred to them. The most common questions asked on this reading was: "What is cow?" "What is cowboy?" We can teach them to read words, but how do you teach everything about culture? Can you imagine a person who grew up in the Mountains of Laos pondering over our cowboy lore? Remember, the Hmongs of Laos are farmers, and are Buddhists. Their culture is based upon orality--they didn't even have a written language until the 1950's. So you have found one very popular solution (for those who can afford it)--segregate our children from the "lowest common dominator"--give them a separate education. Empty the schools of everyone but the minorities and underprivileged. But is this really the answer? If we really believe that we are truly one humanity, as taught in theosophical literature, then perhaps we need to look for better solutions that will serve the needs of others as well as our own. JHE> Ollie North was operating from the ethical value of > "loyalty"--"My country right or wrong." From the > Kohlberg scale of six, he was operating at stage three. > Only a minority of people operate at post conventional level > of 5 or 6 (values of right and wrong--good and evil that > transcend considerations of selfishness, greed, loyalty and > law). MG> Perhaps Ollie was considering the good of supporting the freedom fighters in Central America. Unlike you, I don't know him well enough to judge. I suppose that G. Washington and others were also judged a 3 since they disobeyed the laws of the land at that time. No doubt Ollie "was considering the good of supporting the freedom fighters in Central America." Whether or not the support of those "freedom fighters" is right or wrong is a matter of individual political beliefs, and is not the point. The point concerns his motivations for doing so. North in his "loyalty to the cause" had little to risk and much to gain. The promised payoffs in insurance policies, house remodeling, Swiss bank accounts etc. at tax payers' expense are very attractive incentives to consider "the good of supporting the freedom fighters in Central America." If he and his partners got away with it, they would have been financially much better off than when they started, and would have been practically guaranteed positions of greater power and privilege in the governmental bureaucracy. If he got caught, North still had the system (aye-- the President!) behind him. He was never in any real danger of spending the rest of his life in a federal prison, and of all ironies, he is now running for the Senate--the very institution he tried to defraud! G. Washington, on the other hand, had no support if his cause failed. If he didn't get involved in the revolution in the first place, he still would have lived out a privileged life. By his involvement, he risked being hung as a traitor if we lost to England. In other words, he put everything at risk for the benefit of this country. He had nothing to gain for himself, and had everything to loose. After the revolution, Washington was drafted into the Presidency, he did not seek it. After his two terms of office, he retired, though he could have continued as President for the rest of his life. Everything about the circumstances and actions of Washington show that he was operating at a level of five and six. I see no bases of favorable comparison between the actions North and those of Washington. This is precisely why I was hoping to have a discussion concerning ethics on this network. Discussions concerning ethical decision making is not the making up of rules that everyone should follow, but the exploration of the consequences concerning the choices of ethical actions that we are faced with every day. Ethical decision making has to do with gaining insight into our own actions and decisions, as well as those of others. Ethics make up the underlying fabric of the early theosophical writings--witness Blavatsky, Judge, and the Mahatma Letters. Ethical issues come up on almost every page, yet all of this is completely ignored now-a-days. You won't find ethical rules on daily conduct in those writings either (nor should we), but you will find an entire philosophy with an ethical philosophy woven into it. I think that as students of theosophy, we need to explore that underlying philosophy. For instance: one of the definitions of karma is that it is the "law of ethical causation." What does this mean if ethics (as someone said) has no place in theosophy? MG> This nation and this planet do have some serious problems and books like The Bell Curve show how difficult it is going to be to make improvement. Still we must TRY. Yes, we must. Martin Euser, ME> My special interest lies in understanding something of the > basic (deductive) principles underlying phenomena (in this > case: crystal structure and formation, etc.). Also, I'm very > interested in how we can apply these principles in an > analogical manner. I understand that Theosophy is a philosophy > of correspondences: so above, so below and vice versa. > > Jerry Hejka-Ekins, this may interest you also, because Sacred > Geometry must be involved in this subject. Yes, I think L. Gordon Plummer's books on sacred geometry applies here, and might be a starting point. The idea of basic geometric principles underlying phenomena goes back to the Platonic statement that "God geometrises." Nature repeats certain patterns throughout all kingdoms of nature--from mineral to animal. An identification and discussion on the applications of those patterns in nature would greatly interest me. I'm also interested in the application of these principles to architecture and ecology. I used to be very interested in the application of geometry, algebra and calculus to the analysis of geometric figures. It's been over five years since I've done any work on this and have forgotten almost everything, but I'm still interested. I found a lot of personal insights and made a lot of neat little discoveries back then. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 20:27:22 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: True to Typo I have just noticed the following in a couple of today's postings:- the lowest common demoniator the lowest common dominator Is the Shoreless Ocean of Truth trying a spot of automatic writing? With love, respect and a smile. murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 20:27:22 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: True to Typo I have just noticed the following in a couple of today's postings:- the lowest common demoniator the lowest common dominator Is the Shoreless Ocean of Truth trying a spot of automatic writing? With love, respect and a smile. murray@sss.co.nz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 23:42:30 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Comments to Liesel & Jerry Liesel I have to apologize here. I am very new to UNIX and have no idea how to access the theo library through email. Nor do I recall what the title is (schueler01 dot somethingorother I think) I can get there via ftp nowdays, but I don't know if you can fpt or can only email. However, I do recall awhile back that John Mead gave out directions for how to do it (these are lost in the bowls of my archives, and I simply don;t have the time to try and recover them). Perhaps John, or someone else, can help here??? Jerry H-E Jerry, please excuse me for butting into your conversation, but I thought that we already have had a lot of discusion on the subject of ethics (I still have some scars around here somewhereorother). I have repeatedly pointed out that ethics is a huge can of worms and unless we just like to go fishing we should aughta leave it alone. Case in point: A while back you said to someoneorother that true ethical behavior is doing what is *right* rather than just following rules. Hitler vs Shindler comes to my mind as an example that you, or someoneelse used. Then, when someone mentions Ollie North, who did what he *thought* was *right*, you imply that he acted solely from selfish motivations of money. While I am not an Ollie fan, it seems to me that you just undid your own ethical beliefs. Or did I miss something here? My point is that if a small inner voice tells us that a rule or law is not right, and that we should act in some other way (Mai Lai during the Vietnam era, for example, where obeying orders meant murdering innocent civilians) how are we to know, at the time, if we are really *right* or not when we break a law? Of course, nothing beats hindsight (and if Hitler had won the war, would Shindler have still been *right* ?). Breaking a law for a *higher good* is itself a can of worms that almost invites anarchy - though I will admit that under certain situations, I would do so, and be willing to live (or die) with the consequences (thus putting myself somewhereorother above a Kholberg level 3). Are you saying that Ollie was *wrong* even though he inwardly believed that what he was doing was right (and I think he really did believe at the time that he was doing the *right* thing. For arguement sake, lets assume that he honestly believed he was doing a higher good). And, since you enjoy this topic so much, why can't you just come right out and tell me what the difference is between the ethical beliefs (or system, or whateveryouwanttocallit - I have yet to hear just what you think ethics really is) of a Christian and that of a theosophist? I have asked this several times, but you and Eldon have so far both responded with a lot of softshoe that I haven't found impressive. I have no problem with gaining insight into one's actions, but I can't yet see what that has to do with ethics. Why can't we gain insight into our actions through yoga or some kind? How about self-introspection during a quite moment? Where do ethics come into play here? Are you suggesting by this that we should label all of our actions as good or bad? What then? Try to get a gold star by more good than bad? Who is counting? God? What do we win, a better future life? And how do we define *good* and how do we define *bad* (except in terms of each other of course). Just maybe, Ollie defined "good" as lying to Congress. Without rules and regulations, anyone can make up their own sense of right and wrong. While I can see the need for rules and regulations, I see little for worrying about a set of ethics to follow. And I will say yet again to you that dragging the early theosophists, including HPB, into it does not impress me either. She had her own agenda, one that I understand and appreciate. You have yet to tell me what ethics has to do with any of this in such a way that I can understand you. Are you trying to tell me that HPB was always ethical, in the normal or Christian sense? (I hope you are not that naive.) What exactly is your definition of ethics that you so strongly desire to talk about? If you define ethical decision making, as you did in your post, as "gaining insight" into the actions of others, then I would suppose that you have already labeled me as a troublesome soandso who is clearly unethical. HPB defines good or bad as having to do with motive, period. What happens when we hurt someone with a good motive ("the road to Hell is paved with good intensions" may be true)? Hitler's motive was to improve the world. Does this make him good? How can you, or anyone else, know what my motives are? And if you did, what difference would it make? How can you know what Ollies are? Your doctrinal dissertations on ethics, so far, have sounded very biggoted to me. I don't seriously think that they are. I feel strongly that you simply haven't thought about it completely and put it all into the proper words. I apologise for my rambling here. I seem to keep repeating myself on this issue. But I get very tired of you and Eldon harping on ethics and never really saying anything but a bunch of useless pithy sayings. If you want to talk ethics, fine, but please say something for a change besides how darn important they are. I can go to church and hear that. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 01:26:08 -0500 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: Re: education;ethics;geometry etc. Hello Jerry and the others. About ethics The ethic/morality appears in physical plane in actions. I have found it useful and enlightening to judge actions in two ways. First before the action takes place, when somebody has a plan or a wish to do something. Then it is useful to ask, what is the Motive, why?. Since people always have some motive behind their deeds. I think that because of this they do karmic things. Maybe an enlightened one acts without motive, doing things because it is just natural to him/her to do so, thus not creating any more karma. I think that when you have a motive to your action, you also create karma, good or bad. Second way to judge the action is afterwards. Then we can examine the result, if it is good or bad. This is not so easy since usually in every dees there is good for somebody and bad to others, thats why they call it 'Maya'. About not to resist bad; There was some discussion about this earlier. Recently I read about Nisargadatta?'s saying that if you wish good for the others/everybody, you can't fail in your doings since the whole world want along you the same things. If you respond evil with goodness, you should always succeed, since the evildoer has the same wish, good for himself. So you are not any more conforting, but going to the same direction. This is kind of intellectual explanation, I my self like more the "karma"-version.... Peace. aki. Arctic Circle, Rovaniemi, Finland. P.S. My sivilian service at local art/design school is going just fine. I act as an computer-support-person, handling various problems and tutoring cad- and visualisation programs etc. I really enjoy that I have an opporturnity to do some beneficial work, without getting any money, only food, for my work. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 08:05:08 -0500 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Keep Up the Good Work This is by Eldon Tucker ---- Keep Up the Good Work First, thanks to everyone for all the congratulations over the new baby. He's doing fine now at almost two-weeks of age. I have been thinking about our mailing list, and would like to ask everyone what they think about it. There are different models for what happens on the list, and they correspond to other areas of communication. If we were having a group meeting, there would be (a) question asking, (b) short discussion- stimulating questions or comments, (c) lengthy replies to previous postings (group discussion with some people being more long-winded than others), and (d) lectures or presentations (essay-style writings). My impression is that all these forms of communication can coexist. There is a place for theosophical writings, prepublication review of articles, etc. I've adopted that style myself, not because I want to stay aloof and not engage anyone in conversation, but rather because I want to cover one or a few points in more depth. My manner of participation is to use recent postings to suggest what to write about. I've received some negative reactions to the approach that I've been taking. I'm not trying to preach at anyone, nor to attack any particular person's view in some "passive aggressive" manner. I've also received some fairly positive reaction to what I've written. When writing on a topic, my goal is to write plainly, simply, and with nothing held back. I'm often attracted to difficult topics where it is easy, if one is not careful, to mislead rather than communicate. Some people may take another approach and either keep to simple topics or to choose an exoteric garb for their ideas. They may give a half-truth, something more easy to accept to people with a materialistic western background, out of fear of scaring away newcomers. The choice of what to communication and what to hold back or veil is a difficult one. My basic assumption is that if someone is really ready for Theosophy, they will embrace it, regardless of its garb. There is a fundamental attraction, a sense of "I knew this!" and a feeling of having come home. Someone just need find a book and start reading, and an inner connection is established, a connection reestablished with the Teachings from previous lifetimes. For these people, we need not timidly call Theosophy a "synthesis of the best of the world's religions," as it might in public meetings of some T.S. branches. We can plainly say that it is an introductory presentation of the Ancient Wisdom, of a semi-divine revelation of the gods. We can say that Theosophy is based upon knowledge originally given by the Dhyani- Chohans to the Mahatmas, the elect of mankind, in an extremely ancient era of history. I recognize, of course, that much of Theosophy would be considered "nonsense" by the majority of westerners, except perhaps those with an exposure to Buddhism or Eastern Philosophy. Because of this, I'd likely avoid forums where I'd be outnumbered by those whom would attack the Teachings and where I'd buried in hate mail. Why do we choose the approaches that we do? Should we err on the side of saying too little or too much? It is best to keep our mouths shut, keeping our ideas to ourselves, and only offering occasional suggestions, hints, or questions to stimulate the thinking of others? That approach is as much the playing of teacher to others as the approach where we go into detail to explain what we know or think. With either approach we run the risk of smugness, of feeling we know more than others, of wanting to tell them to "get real and see the light"--e.g. change their thinking to agree with us. On the one hand, someone may say "you write too much," meaning he's heard too many ideas that he would respond to, and possibly disagree with, and just doesn't have time to keep up. On the other hand, someone may find issue with people whom keep silent on their views, and see that as fear to have those ideas stand up to the light of day and risk challenge or exposing flaws in the ideas. A fair middle ground might be where we write when we have something that we feel is important to say, something that we care about and value. This is not writing that is obsessive, lacking in inner life, repetitive and boring. It is writing with a sense of enjoyment, with a sense of excitement, a feeling of wonder and of exploration of the deeper mysteries of life. This writing may touch on old, frequently-visited themes. But it is akin to playing the same piece of music, one that deeply touches us, again and again, as the feeling strikes us and we are drawn to play or listen to it yet another time. I'm saddened to hear some people say that a study of the basic Teachings is now boring to them, that is it the "same old stuff", now lifeless, trivial, devoid of any sense of specialness. It's sad to hear that the well has run dry for them and that they must renew their search as inquirers. The Teachings have not lost their value as a Gateway to the Mysteries! There is a mixed nature of participants in our group, some unfamiliar with Theosophy, some mildly interested in it, with mixed belief and disbelief, and others sincerely believing in it--be that belief "reasoned certitude" or based upon other forms of conviction. It's hard to say anything without both agreement and disagreement. One experience, though, is shared by all of us that stick it out, and don't drop out after hearing something "too objectionable to tolerate". That is: flexibility of mind and the ability to tolerate different points of view. It's easy to surround ourselves with people whom agree with us and never have to deal with our ideas and basic assumptions about life (worldview) being questioned. In "theos-l", we find those basic assumptions held up to question on a regular basis. My suggestion to everyone: keep up the good work! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:51:54 -0500 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Voice of the Silence Having just reread fragments 1 and 2 in the Voice, I am blown away by the references that make sense now in a much fuller way than before I explored the Radhasoami literature. Not only are the sounds heard on the inner planes identical to those taught in RS initiation, but the RS practice of concentration at the brow chakra to reach the inner Master and details like blocking the ears and closing the eyes during meditation are also parallel. This doesn't necessarily imply direct influence; as historian Mark Juergensmeyer notes, the parallels may derive from common sources in earlier Sant Mat teachings and practices. But going back to Art P.'s thoughts about the world-rejecting tone of fragment one, I think I can now see a clearer relationship between it and fragment 2 than I could before studying RS. While the first fragment is all about the need to become free from worldly attachments to reach the inner Master and hear the spiritual sounds, the second fragment is all about how this is a means and not an end. The goal is bringing whatever we gain from the meditation back down into the "real" world. I would say that the Voice is at a higher moral point of view than what I have seen in RS lit because of this emphasis. One thing that is striking me especially is the distinction between the "eye" and "heart" doctrines. I always took this as symbolic, but now it seems much more direct. The RS practices focus exclusively on the Tilsa Til, or Third Eye, or Brow Chakra. The Voice prescribes concentrating at both this center and in the heart center. Thus the "eye doctrine" is implicit in any path that restricts its meditative focus to that one center, which inevitably draws us inward and upward to spiritual realms. But only by bringing energy back down into the heart center can we benefit others practically from our meditative experience, perhaps. And thus the "heart doctrine" is about bridging the spiritual and material worlds through the middle principle? Half-baked, inexperienced, and open to suggestion and correction-- Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 12:11:09 -0500 From: IXCHEL@delphi.com Subject: 2nd try Principles To Jerry H-E, Thank you for again responding so quickly to my ques- tions in spite of the fact that I sent this note to you a week ago. Not your fault, cyberspace still has its flaws. So in case this message gets delayed, I will tell you that it is the 8th of Nov. I'd like at this point to tell you a little about my- self and experience. I have been a meditator for 27 years. I believe because of this I was able to under- stand the basic message of the _Voice of the Silence_. Of course, one can meditate and never truly understand, but the type of meditation I have done has been an unusually effective one. One aspect of it is designed to overcome the emotional response to environmental stress. This is accomplished by realizing that our lower Kama-Manas is subject to conditioned reflex response and that this becomes our program which takes a higher Buddhi consciousness to monitor so that trans- formation or crossing to the other side may come about. It is very complicated. There are many techniques which are introduced at each rung of the ladder of advancement. My motive in asking you questions is that I am interest- ed in furthering my education along the lines of the in- tellectual understanding of the spiritual path. Your ap- proach is one I admire. Although I can see that you are missing some knowledge, on the whole you seem to pos- sess a remarkable amount of very precise information. I am thankful that you are so willing to share this, along with your valuable time. I must admit that months back I was so overwhelmed by your answers I couldn't find a way to respond and make sense at the same time. Thank you for remembering my question on the TS astro time. Perhaps someday you will be kind enough to reveal your birth information. When I was in NYC for the month of Oct. I went looking for 46 Irving Place. The building that stands in that place is not the original one. I did, however, make it to the now Sherman Hotel that is on the corner of 47th and 8th Ave., where HPB wrote Isis Unveiled. When I ask you a question, I am seeking an explana- tion more than an answer. The difficulty is that this subject is so vast and it is hard to focus on one aspect of it without coming up with many more questions which tend to branch out in all directions. I felt the topic of the PRINCIPLES to be central and yet they are so complex. I'm trying to go in a certain direction. About a year or so ago, I read some parts of _A Study in Con- sciousness_ by Annie Besant. In it she gave out some information I have not seen elsewhere in theosophical literature. At the time I also read _The Inner Group Teachings_ and many parts of the Collected Writings vol. XII. I don't have these books on hand so I cannot refer to pages at this time, but I want to discuss a bit of what I discovered. There was a letter written to Annie Besant from HPB. She called her Pennelope, I believe. I got the impression from this letter that HPB was very close to AB. I'm wondering where AB learned the techniques she wrote about in _A Study in Consciousness. Was it from HPB? I don't find this material in HPB's writings, not even in _The Voice of the Silence_. In AB's book, she goes into great detail on how to handle emotions on a daily basis and describes a type of medi- tation that I find no where else in theosophical writ- ings. I'm sure you can shed more light on this subject for me. A question on the Moon. Would you please explain the theosophical meaning of the Moon? Then how does this meaning relate to it's placement in the horoscope of an individual and then how does this relate to the principles? ..............Thank you,..............Sarah. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 18:16:05 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Judge Not That Ye Be Not Judged What is so problematic with ethics? As theosophists, we are, after all, supposed to be highly ethical and moral. Everyone seems to say so. And I can not disagree with the fact that ethics is a necessary first step in our spiritual development. For some, the development of an ethical foundation will consume many lifetimes. Many have doubtless begun such a program in a past life, and are continuing to make advances in this one. A small few have advanced to the next step. So why is it so problematic? What is my problem, or perhaps I should say my concern, that I find with ethics. In a nutshell, it is this: Give a person a good strong sense of ethics, a firm sense of right and wrong, and he or she will make judgements of others every time. As a general rule, the stronger the sense of right and wrong that one has about life and the world in which we live, the more judgmental one becomes. What is the difference between the ethical development of a non- theosophist and a theosophist? Many apparently see none at all. To me, the ethical development of many non-theosophists involves becoming as ethical as one can be in this one lifetime in order to be rewarded with heavenly bliss in the afterlife. Or, possibly in order to improve one's personal karma in this or in a future life. But the goals of the theosophist and the non-theosophist are different. The theosophist sees a spiritual evolution over many lifetimes and is aware of egoism and the need to keep one's sense of self in its proper place. As far as I know, the theosophist is one of the few who even recognizes "spiritual selfishness" as a thing to be avoided. Most non-theosophists would consider the term a paradox. So what is the next step? The goal that we, as theosophists, are trying to reach (and I speak from years of study but admit the possibility that other theosophists could disagree) is to be ethical without being judgmental. In the past, such people as Jesus and Buddha have achieved this lofty goal. Today, probably His Holiness the Dali Lama stands out as one who daily demonstrates a high degree of achievement of this goal. It can be done. No, it is not easy. But no one ever said that the theosophical path was easy (and I would submit that Jesus, Buddha, His Holiness, and others, are true theosophists in spirit). As an intermediate step toward the goal, is the development and cultivation of compassion. My premise is that those who would stand on the first step of the Path are in danger. They cultivate ethics and they become judgmental because they fail to see how bloated the ego can become when one firmly stands on the first step and knows himself or herself to be treading the awesome Path taught to us from the Great Ones throughout the history of mankind. The first step of the Path is a dangerous step. It allows us to see the world as black and white. It allows us to see right and wrong. It provides us with a conscience and a sense of morality. It makes us complacent thinking that we now know right from wrong. Those who take the first step are one giant step above the animals. But the danger that lurks at this level is so subtle, few see it, and fewer do anything about it. The chief danger is this: we become judges of our fellowman. When we arrive at the second step, the world that was seen as black and white shimmers into various shades of grey. White and black, right and wrong, fade into the polar horizons of one's viewpoint. They are seen as the dualism that they are, neither having any existence or substance or meaning without the other. With this new view and a deeper appreciation for the complexity of life and with compassion for all living beings, one can maintain a strong sense of ethics for oneself, while being nonjudgmental with others. What about the early founding theosophists, who can be quoted ad nauseam about the importance of ethics and of keeping high moral standards? Every one of them was judgmental. Throughout most of the writings of HPB, we find her making wild accusations against the Jesuits as well as the materialistic scientists of her day and many others (whether she was right or wrong in her judgements is immaterial). I suspect that if these individuals had climbed to the second step of the Path, and had refrained from making judgement calls of others, the fragmentation of the TS would not have occurred. They were all too human. And so are we. Even today, the various TSs sit smugly, each with a strong moral sense of rightness and purpose, and accuse (judge) the other groups of all kinds of wrongful things. After all, the very fact that we can think ourselves to be right necessitates the wrongness of those who oppose us. I too am human, I too make judgements and accusations. But at least I don't pretend to be more ethical than anyone else, nor do I see the world as entirely black and white. I try not to be hypocritical. By this I mean that I see the danger in ethics and try not to judge others according to my own standards. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:45:12 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: ethics Jerry S. JS> Jerry, please excuse me for butting into your conversation, but I thought that we already have had a lot of discussion on the subject of ethics (I still have some scars around here somewhereorother). I have repeatedly pointed out that ethics is a huge can of worms and unless we just like to go fishing we should aughta leave it alone. In former discussions with you on this subject, I think it has become very clear (at least to me) that we operate from very different concepts of what ethical decision making means. As I had expressed in different ways before, I do not view ethics as a game of logic to be used to get around regulations, and I have no interest in debating with you on that level. Nor am I interested in another round of my correcting your mis-quotes and out-of- context quotes of my statements on the subject. However, I do agree with you--ethics in the way that you have expressed your understanding of the word is indeed a "huge can of worms" and I would also consider it a waste of time pursuing it. Why you are compelled to post your objections to discussing ethics every time the subject comes up is another matter. Is the subject somehow threatening to you? I don't know the answer to this, but I hope you do. Whatever the reason, perhaps it would be more prudent to simply ignore any discussions on ethics since you consider them a waste of time anyway. Aki, A> The ethic/morality appears in physical plane in actions. I > have found it useful and enlightening to judge actions in two > ways. First before the action takes place, when somebody has a > plan or a wish to do something. Then it is useful to ask, what > is the Motive, why?. Since people always have some motive > behind their deeds. I think that because of this they do karmic > things. Maybe an enlightened one acts without motive, doing > things because it is just natural to him/her to do so, thus not > creating any more karma. Yes, I agree that motive is basic. I can't imagine "an enlightened one" acting without motive. Certainly from higher motives, but not from no motives. A> I think that when you have a motive to your action, you also > create karma, good or bad. > > Second way to judge the action is afterwards. Then we can > examine the result, if it is good or bad. This is not so easy > since usually in every dees there is good for somebody and bad > to others, thats why they call it 'Maya'. Perhaps the "motive" is more important than the result, even when the result appears to be unfavorable. > About not to resist bad; There was some discussion about this > earlier. Recently I read about Nisargadatta?'s saying that if > you wish good for the others/everybody, you can't fail in your > doings since the whole world want along you the same things. I think there is something to this. > If you respond evil with goodness, you should always succeed, > since the evildoer has the same wish, good for himself. So you > are not any more conforting, but going to the same direction. > > This is kind of intellectual explanation, I my self like more > the "karma"-version.... In the Mahatma Letters to Sinnett, K.H. writes that we return good with good and evil with justice. Murray, M> I have just noticed the following in a couple of today's > postings:- > > the lowest common demoniator > > the lowest common dominator > > Is the Shoreless Ocean of Truth trying a spot of automatic > writing? > > With love, respect and a smile. Great! I noted the "demoniator" but missed the "dominator" (actually it was spell check correcting "demoniator" to the wrong word). Yet, considering the context where each was found, I think they both add a great deal of meaning to their respective messages. Sarah, S> When I was in NYC for the month of Oct. I went looking for 46 > Irving Place. The building that stands in that place is not the > original one. I did, however, make it to the now Sherman Hotel > that is on the corner of 47th and 8th Ave., where HPB wrote > Isis Unveiled. I understand that the Sherman Hotel is for sale---six million I think is the asking price. To bad there isn't the money around to restore the building and make it a theosophical museum. S> When I ask you a question, I am seeking an explana- tion more than an answer. The difficulty is that this subject is so vast and it is hard to focus on one aspect of it without coming up with many more questions which tend to branch out in all directions. When I answer questions, I'm hoping that they will generate discussions where deeper insights will arise. Otherwise an "explination" just becomes an extended answer and still may not be helpful. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:46:42 -0500 From: Arthur Patterson Subject: Theosophy Unlimited Thu. Nov.10, 1994 Theos-l Group L> My son, Bob, took my 14 year old grandson Chris to see "Schindler's List". It was just another horror movie to him, no different than "Frankenstein" or some such. Maybe for future generations Simon Wiesenthal's work will serve as a reminder to avoid another holocaust ... if they take it for real. Art 1> Another side of this is that even if the young people see Shindler's list as a horror film, at least it can make them realize that what happens in history is horrific. That horror films come true and that the story of Humanity overreaching itself in the ubermensch mythology is accurate. Anyway I do appreciate that as time moves on and many of us who didn't go through the war will have to either make mythology out of it and learn or we will forget it and repeat the lesson. I hope not. Oh yes, once clarification, by myth I don't mean something untrue or false. I am meaning that while the holocaust is historical, it needs to be taken into the mythological consciousness in order to have a redeeming effect. Other wise, those horrendous events will be remembered only as chronology, like the Persian Expedition or the Peloponnesian war. History has to be living not dead. Jerry> According to my wife's research in this area (she teaches political theory at the University here) The poor and the working class are the very people who would stand to benefit the most from the "liberals" in this country. But they are also the people least likely to vote. The poor and working class believe that their vote doesn't count and nothing can be done. The majority of voters in this country are a retired and very conservative minority. They want more jails to lock up the young drug addicts who steal their "stuff" that they have accumulated over their lives. Their kids have grown up, so education is not an immediate concern, in fact they are mistrustful of it--consider it a failure--therefore they are more than happy to divert funds from education to build more prisons. Art 2> The idea of the poor being receptive to liberal ideas makes sense. But I have had quiet another experience with the poor. Our congregation was in the inner city of Winnipeg, our inner cities are not like New York but they are not suburbia either. The poor here are very conservative and many of them have goals and values that the rich have. Many would love to make tons of money and move up the ladder, most do not believe in sharing but in getting ahead. I think I should qualify this by making a distinction between the poor and the destitute the destitute are more prone to liberal ideas - the welfare poor don't tend to be at least in the environment I was in. This experience is recorded in the 60's American scene when the SDS tried to politicize the poor and found that they were often staunch conservatives. I see the majority of American's are moving to the right again even though Clinton has made significant changes in domestic policy and conditions. I don't understand it. But as you may know baby boomer Canadians easily glide to the left. Jerry > HPB's teachings focused upon altruism and self responsibility. What is going on today represents the polar opposite of those values. DePurucker, in ~Wind of the Spirit~ wrote that though the Theosophical Society is not itself a political organization, theosophists have a moral obligation to participate in the system to the extend of their conscience and to vote. I don't have much hope. Art 3> Something happens when people are selfish and materialistic that takes the world into a pit and then when we become sick of our narcissism there is a chance for change. It is evolution, or process, and I don't think we will see what our little commitment to consciousness will reap in the future. HPB and Olcott said we don't deserve to know as a species. At least not yet. I have very little political hope because of the collectivity of the political premise. If the collective consisted in aware educated and fully functioning individuals then it could be depended upon. But our educational, politic and moral expectation of people are so low that voting among many other responsibilities is effortless. No need to be informed just vote the way you always have or be swayed by the media or react. Jerry > Concerning Tulku: Boris is talking about part of the consciousness of a Buddha like person(s) being present in HPB's consciousness. I wouldn't call this "inspiration." To me, inspiration is when the "god within us" is coming through. I would consider inspiration a higher state then tulku. Art4> Thanks for the clarification. I have to watch my words now. I think it is so easy to assume parallelism when in the beginner mind. The state of being used as an secretary or apprentice of a Mahatma is to be differentiated from being Divinely inspired or anything like that. At the same time it is not a trance state where there is a loss of consciousness. AP> It is necessary to become detached from the objects of sense experience, the clutter of everyday life, in order to hear the voice of God or The Silence. This detachment require some sort of training. Jerry> "God" is another word that I have problems with because of the Judeo-Christian view of a personal God-the-creator-of-the- universe with whom one can have personal intercourse. Such a concept is not in Mahayana Buddhism, nor is it in HPB's writings. There is however, an inner "god" whose voice is "The Silence." But that god is to "God" as the ray is to the sun. For God, I prefer terms like "the unknowable", or "the rootless root". I have had this conversation with many students of theosophy, who reply by swearing to me that by "God" they do not mean a "personal God", then In the next breath refer to this "God" as "He". See HPB's three fundamental propositions in ~The Secret Doctrine~, p. 14 etc. Art 5> I really understand what you are saying here. G-d is such a misused word with such a stretch of meaning it is almost meaningless. The only problem I have in using other words is that the same semantic problem creeps into them. When I decide to speak my heart on the issue of Deity I tend to use the word Ground. It has its root in Meister Eckhart and more recently Paul Tillich. About the personal issue. My son and I were discussing this. He has an antipathy to seeing God in "personal" terms. I told him that I appreciated his viewpoint and that it works to an extent but I asked him to consider that personality is a metaphor for the Source, see now I am avoiding God-Talk language. He is into Druidry so I asked him if he ever felt that nature had feelings he said yes I said that was personification and a useful tool in describing our relationship to God. In making the analogy between God and human-beings I was thinking that when I think of myself as "I" with my human self identity it is part of who I am in my entirety but not all of who I am. I as a human being am who I think I am but I hope that I am more than that. I am hoping that there is something about us that is transcendent of human personality but is also contained within it. Augustine coined an interesting phrase about this, "This is Thou and Neither is this Thou." Here I think he affirms the way of images (personality) and the way of negation ( the way of Hinduism neti, neti). The traditional ways of speaking about this is kataphatic for images and apophatic for imagelessness. I like to see it as dialectic. AP> Even the fact that I am "excited" about studying Theosophy could be a reflection of severing the tie to the inner teacher. I appreciate the fact that the Silence implies that when you burn yourself out on the external issues you will eventually withdraw inside like a "turtle within the carapace of Selfhood". It is then that you can encounter God. This is truly gracious since it implies that even when caught there is something that draws us down into the Silence. Jerry> There is an interesting statement in ~The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett~ where K.H. writes "We have no patience with the Sunyasis" These sunyasis are the Yogis who escape to the forest, sit in a cave to obtain enlightenment then die. The Mahatma saw it as a waste. One becomes enlightened for the service of humanity; otherwise it is just spiritual selfishness. Later in the ~Voice~ we will come a section on the Pratyeka Buddha that will cover this. Art6> Paul Johnson helped me out here when he said that I should read the Silence as thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The first part is negation the second seems to be affirmation. I am working at it. AP> - "I would like to incorporate passion & love in my understanding of spirituality." LD - I was taught to meditate to certain Beethoven symphonies & concerti. I was given 2 sets of instructions, to do this while thinking of Love directed from the heart chakra, and while thinking of Beauty directed from the crown chakra, whatever I feel fits in with the music. After doing this for a while, it seems to me that the 2 tend to merge, Love & Beauty, heart & head. I was also taught to observe myself non judgementally. That's one teacher. Art 6> Liesel thank you for the reminder that heart and mind are one when you are centered also thanks for the method. I will have to try it sometime. Liesel> In another note you asked a few personal questions. I'm in Syracuse NY, which is about 4,5 hours by car North West of New York City, and about an hour from the Canadian border. It's easiest to cross over to Kingston & Ontario. Where are you? Art 7> I live in a prairie city called Winnipeg almost a million people. It is not a hick town but it has a quasi-rural feel to it compared to some of the mega cities on the American east cost. To locate it on the map, it is above North Dakota. The temperature in winter are gruesome and in the summer the heat is excruciating. The situation you are in in New York sounds very interesting to me. You say you are a senior I only hope and pray I am as alive as you sound in my late mid-age. Presently I am forty-two just gone through the mid-life changes of getting remarried and starting a new career as a counsellor writer. I am having some difficulty because whereas I have interesting thoughts my grammar and style is somewhat lacking. I have a very good proof-reader who fixes up my written stuff for publication. This lack is the result of dropping out of high school in grade 10. But after than I made a come back and worked through a couple of Masters degrees. This theos-l group is sure active. I can hardly keep up. I will continue reading the Silence and trying to respond to what I can but thanks all for listening and responding. I appreciate your accompaniment. Under the Mercy, Arthur Patterson Winnipeg, MB Canada R3E 1Y5 1-204-774-5301 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:48:00 -0500 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Judge Not That Ye Be Not Judged In the new issue of The Quest, William Metzger reviews two books that seem relevant to this discussion: Postmodern Ethics by Zygmunt Bauman and The Morality of Pluralism by John Kekes. I'll just mention the "six theses of pluralism" from the latter: 1) the plurality and conditionality of values; 2) the unavoidability of conflicts; 3) the approach to reasonable conflict-resolution; 4) the possibilities of life; 5) the need for limites; and 6) the prospects for moral progress. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:12:52 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: God; etc. Art Patterson, AP> The idea of the poor being receptive to liberal ideas makes sense. But I have had quiet another experience with the poor. Our congregation was in the inner city of Winnipeg, our inner cities are not like New York but they are not suburbia either. The poor here are very conservative and many of them have goals and values that the rich have. Many would love to make tons of money and move up the ladder, most do not believe in sharing but in getting ahead. I think I should qualify this by making a distinction between the poor and the destitute the destitute are more prone to liberal ideas - the welfare poor don't tend to be at least in the environment I was in. This experience is recorded in the 60's American scene when the SDS tried to politicize the poor and found that they were often staunch conservatives. Your experience exactly matches what I find here in the central valley of California and in Los Angeles. AP> I see the majority of American's are moving to the right again even though Clinton has made significant changes in domestic policy and conditions. I don't understand it. But as you may know baby boomer Canadians easily glide to the left. Yes the whole thing is irrational. The big factor is image. Presidents are no longer elected on political platforms--the elections depend upon who is the best marketed, and who has "the look." One of the most popular Presidents in history was Ronald Reagan--yet more indictments for political corruption were made during his administration than any other in the entire history of this country. The issues are too complicated and people don't understand them any more. The popularity of political figures is determined by how they come across, not by what they do. Though the economy is improving, a poll I saw shows that most people give the credit to Bush, even though there is absolutely no objective evidence for doing so. AP> Something happens when people are selfish and materialistic that takes the world into a pit and then when we become sick of our narcissism there is a chance for change. It is evolution, or process, and I don't think we will see what our little commitment to consciousness will reap in the future. HPB and Olcott said we don't deserve to know as a species. At least not yet. I have very little political hope because of the collectivity of the political premise. If the collective consisted in aware educated and fully functioning individuals then it could be depended upon. But our educational, politic and moral expectation of people are so low that voting among many other responsibilities is effortless. No need to be informed just vote the way you always have or be swayed by the media or react. Yes. Beautifully stated. JHE>> "God" is another word that I have problems with because of the Judeo-Christian view of a personal God-the-creator-of-the- universe with whom one can have personal intercourse. AP> I really understand what you are saying here. G-d is such a misused word with such a stretch of meaning it is almost meaningless. The only problem I have in using other words is that the same semantic problem creeps into them. When I decide to speak my heart on the issue of Deity I tend to use the word Ground. It has its root in Meister Eckhart and more recently Paul Tillich. Yes, the same semantic problem does arise. My personal solution is to try to avoid terms all together, and try to use semantically unpolluted terms when it is necessary to discuss it. When we speak of God-the-creator-of-the-universe, we are really talking about something beyond our human powers of speculation anyway. My experience is that when Christians talk about "God/He", not from habit, or the repetition of dogma, but from their hearts, they are really coming from their own experiences of the Divine that is within them. But to make that "god within" the God-the-creator-of-the-universe as generally understood in Christianity is problematical to me. But the merging of the two concepts in inherent in the Christian system, so I usually let it pass without comment. One the other hand, when students of theosophy do it, I raise the issue and point out the Mahatma KH's explicit denial of the existence of a personal cosmic or extra cosmic god. They usually express an agreement with KH's point (even though a student of theosophy has no obligation to agree with any teaching), then in the next breath continue with something like "...God in all of His glory...." It makes me feel like banging my head against the wall. AP> About the personal issue. My son and I were discussing this. He has an antipathy to seeing God in "personal" terms. I told him that I appreciated his viewpoint and that it works to an extent but I asked him to consider that personality is a metaphor for the Source, see now I am avoiding God-Talk language. He is into Druidry so I asked him if he ever felt that nature had feelings he said yes I said that was personification and a useful tool in describing our relationship to God. Being a Literature major, metaphor is my stock and trade. I love them. The problems arise when the metaphor is mistaken for the reality it symbolizes. Also metaphors can become too comfortable. It is like having a great and meaningful slogan, but after repeating it over and over, the words become a habit and the meaning begins to slip away. Your son's antipathy to "seeing God in `personal' terms" might force him to search deeper into the issue, and perhaps make new discoveries. I'm always excited when I see children come up with new concepts that arise out of their rejection of older ones. If it fits him, he will keep it until he outgrows it--then he will find something else. A great metaphor for our spiritual search might be the hermit crab who goes from shell to shell searching for one that fits, only to soon outgrow it. AP> In making the analogy between God and human-beings I was thinking that when I think of myself as "I" with my human self identity it is part of who I am in my entirety but not all of who I am. I as a human being am who I think I am but I hope that I am more than that. I am hoping that there is something about us that is transcendent of human personality but is also contained within it. That's great if it works for you. I'm in the habit of identifying "I" with my personality self. Like most people (I believe) consciousness of the transcendent is not with me at all times. This is something that I seek and explore through meditation. JHE> ...K.H. writes "We have no patience with the Sunyasis".... AP> Paul Johnson helped me out here when he said that I should read the Silence as thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The first part is negation the second seems to be affirmation. I am working at it. I saw Paul's statement on this and was pretty excited about the possibilities in it. But he also stated that he was unsure if his interpretation holds together and was going to explore further. I'm looking forward to Paul's further explication (in confirmation or not) on this. But the application of thesis, antithesis and synthesis to the sections of the ~Voice~ is hardly a standard interpretation. Paul may have a genuine insight here, or it may fall apart under closer examination. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:03:55 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: ethics This AM I'm rereading parts of "A Living Buddhism for The West", Lama Anagarika Govinda,Shambhala, Boston, 1990. It's a favorite. I thought I'd opened it at random, but when I happen to glance back at the chapter heading it's "The role of morality in the maturing of the human personality" Here's a quote "As already remarked, the equation of religion with morality was the most fateful of humanity's mistakes, and judgements such as 'good' and 'bad' have nothing to do with religion as such. And so the ethic of Buddhism has no injunctions beginning 'you must' or 'thou shalt'. Each person is regarded as an individual according to the degree of maturity in his insight and spiritual development, and treated as fully responsible accordingly." .... The Buddha "wanted his followers to accept the truth of the Dharma he preached tonthem by their own insight sand not because of their faith in the superiority of his wisdom or his person: The only faith he expected from his pupils was faith in their own inner powers." Something about attachment sank in as I was reading. I'd like to share it. Lama Govinda talks about not being judgemental and in another context judgemental, it dawned on me, means not looking back all the time to see whether you did the right thing. Better to do it as best you can, at that time, and then move on, without looking for posies or spankings (good or bad) from yourself, or anyone else. This is still on ethics, but not on Lama Govinda. I may have raised this before, but I still haven't figured out a satisfactory answer. It's the Masters' statement that "for us motive is everything". It's a very nice quote if you've done something that perhaps turned out cockeyed and you need to assuage your guilt. You've done it out of a motive you can accept, therefore you can accept your error. It's ignorance, not sin. And it helps you not get stuck, but move on to the next thing. But now, suppose you're at the receiving end of this ignorance. You're suffering because of the mistake. I was going to take the Spanish Inquisition as an example. The motive was to save souls, but you saved them even if you had to maim & kill the body. To us, that's rather unacceptable, but weren't these clerics ascetics anyway? I thought of an example much nearer to myself, my Mom. She was very advanced for her time, in some ways. She read books on child rearing in the 1920ies. Like all parents she meant to bring up her children to a better life than she'd had, & in many ways succeeded, but to this day, I'm still trying to shake off some of her mistakes in judgement. Well, thanks, folks, for being on the net ... because I've just solved that one for myself ... including the Nazis ... "Hate the deed and love the doer" ... forgive, not necessarily forget ... and move on. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 07:59:56 -0500 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: Re: ethics Hello Jerry H-E, and the others. You wrote... J H-E> Yes, I agree that motive is basic. I can't imagine "an > enlightened one" acting without motive. Certainly from higher > motives, but not from no motives. I think that if you are " an enlightened one" you have gone beyond duality of doer-action, you-world, mind-world, I-the others. Our consciousness is the dwelling place of our "I", this "I" reflects our thoughts and perceptions of the world, our self, etc. But all this is limited to our "I" and time. If you go beyond this setting you are no longer attached to your ego, world and time. Then you naturally no longer have any motives to your illusory play in this world. You may still have motives and such, but you don't think that it is "You" who have these things. I think this is a question of your overall motive. What is your goal in your life? If you want to have good Karma or get out of Samsara, in general - what you want? J H-E> Perhaps the "motive" is more important than the result, even when the result appears to be unfavorable. > >(aki) If you respond evil with goodness, you should always succeed, > > since the evildoer has the same wish, good for himself. So you > > are not any more conforting, but going to the same direction. J H-E> In the Mahatma Letters to Sinnett, K.H. writes that we > return good with good and evil with justice. Maybe we should do like that. The problem is; how we can judge what is good and what is evil? I think that is more secure to always respond with goodness and compassion. Is it so bid deal, if we accidentally respond evil with goodness? But if we make a mistake in applying our "justice" we may do a lot of damage. Peace. aki. Oulu, Finland. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:25:24 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: ethics This AM I'm rereading parts of "A Living Buddhism for The West", Lama Anagarika Govinda,Shambhala, Boston, 1990. It's a favorite. I thought I'd opened it at random, but when I happen to glance back at the chapter heading it's "The role of morality in the maturing of the human personality" Here's a quote "As already remarked, the equation of religion with morality was the most fateful of humanity's mistakes, and judgements such as 'good' and 'bad' have nothing to do with religion as such. And so the ethic of Buddhism has no injunctions beginning 'you must' or 'thou shalt'. Each person is regarded as an individual according to the degree of maturity in his insight and spiritual development, and treated as fully responsible accordingly." .... The Buddha "wanted his followers to accept the truth of the Dharma he preached tonthem by their own insight sand not because of their faith in the superiority of his wisdom or his person: The only faith he expected from his pupils was faith in their own inner powers." Something about attachment sank in as I was reading. I'd like to share it. Lama Govinda talks about not being judgemental and in another context judgemental, it dawned on me, means not looking back all the time to see whether you did the right thing. Better to do it as best you can, at that time, and then move on, without looking for posies or spankings (good or bad) from yourself, or anyone else. This is still on ethics, but not on Lama Govinda. I may have raised this before, but I still haven't figured out a satisfactory answer. It's the Masters' statement that "for us motive is everything". It's a very nice quote if you've done something that perhaps turned out cockeyed and you need to assuage your guilt. You've done it out of a motive you can accept, therefore you can accept your error. It's ignorance, not sin. And it helps you not get stuck, but move on to the next thing. But now, suppose you're at the receiving end of this ignorance. You're suffering because of the mistake. I was going to take the Spanish Inquisition as an example. The motive was to save souls, but you saved them even if you had to maim & kill the body. To us, that's rather unacceptable, but weren't these clerics ascetics anyway? I thought of an example much nearer to myself, my Mom. She was very advanced for her time, in some ways. She read books on child rearing in the 1920ies. Like all parents she meant to bring up her children to a better life than she'd had, & in many ways succeeded, but to this day, I'm still trying to shake off some of her mistakes in judgement. Well, thanks, folks, for being on the net ... because I've just solved that one for myself ... including the Nazis ... "Hate the deed and love the doer" ... forgive, not necessarily forget ... and move on. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:52:48 -0500 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Dialectic in the Voice I finished rereading the Voice in light of the intuition that the three fragments present a thesis, antithesis and synthesis. It seems to hold up fine, but there certainly remains the question of whether this is coincidental or whether HPB arranged it this way. Fragment 1 is emphatic about the need for detachment and withdrawal from everything worldly-- the world of people, places and things-- in order to be united with a reality that transcends and subsists appearances. Fragment 2 is even more emphatic in endorsing the Bodhisattva vow to reject nirvana in order to spend vast eons helping all sentient beings attain enlightenment. It is all about engagement as opposed to withdrawal. This is a marked shift of emphasis from world-denial to world-affirmation. (Substitute "life" for "world" for a perhaps better rendition of the meaning.) Fragment 3 really does, it seems to me, reconcile these two emphases through a third-- the practice of the paramitas. The first three paramitas, dana, shila, and kshanti, are collectively a summation of our responsibilities to others. To love unconditionally, to act honorably, to be eternally patient (and nonjudgmental?). But the final four paramitas, viraga, virya, dhyana and prajna, are all individual virtues oriented away from "life" and towards nirvana. (Detachment, vigor in truthseeking, contemplation and wisdom are rough translations for those unfamiliar with the book.) Rather than being rungs on a ladder (despite HPB's imagery) I think a cyclical view is more appropriate, since the essence of prajna-- clearsightedness, freedom from personal motive, leading to right action without any "static" from the lower self-- will lead us right back to dana. That is, s/he who attains the higher paramitas is even more responsible than the rest of us for manifesting the lower ones as well. I wouldn't say HPB provides a neat dialectic here. There's a lot of back and forth chicken and egg argument. Enlightenment is the child of loving deeds. No, wait-- you can't do loving deeds properly without enlightenment. In a way this back-and-forth could be seen as crazy-making double-bind messages. But that is the essence of paradox as seen in koans. Hope somebody else can develop this model if its worth any consideration. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:17:58 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Chaos, Complexity, & Pyschology John Actually, complexity theory is a subset of chaos theory. The Santa Fe Institute which looks at complexity theory began in 1984 and many of those who participated were formerely associated with chaos theory, which began in the early 60s. Technically, complexity theory looks at the borderline area between order and chaos: what has been called, the edge of chaos. This area is where life is created (i.e., physically manifested) and maintained. It is where all living systems are located (or so goes the theory). I have found what appears to be a direct correspondence between this area and Jung's personal unconscious (the area that Jung describes lying between the conscious and unconscious. Anyway, heres an idea of where I am currently: There is a very interesting article (Iberall, A. S. & Soodak, H. "A physics for complex systems." in Yates, F. E. (Ed.) (1987). Self-organizing systems: The emergence of order. New York: Plenum Press.) which explores the concept of Reynolds number (Re, a measure of turbulence in flowing liquids). Re is extended by the authors by showing that the numerator represents a convective velocity, those forces that sweep matter into and through the field, while the denominator is a diffusional velocity such as the rate of transport of momentum. The classical equation is extended as: Re = V(convection) / V(diffusion) This form of the equation addresses whether or not the energy associated with the global convection velocity can be absorbed into the internal energy at the atomic level by some diffusive process. If not, the field becomes unstable and a new structured form or pattern emerges. The authors point out that convective field processes and local diffusion transports compete. Furthermore, a diffusive process may be momentum diffusivity or some other dominant mode of diffusion such as electrical, thermal, or chemical. In this way, the idea of Re can be transferred into other areas besides fluid flow, such as chemical patterns and even social patterns. They write, "The generalized Reynolds number criterion for emergence can even be applied to the nucleation of people into urban settlements in the post-Neolithic period" (p 508). In psycholgy, this equation can be reworded as: Re = sensory data / data assimilation Unfortuneately, psychological data is usually qualitative rather than quanititative, and thus number generation is difficult or impossible. However, the equation can be used to address a qualitative analysis because it suggests that Re will be greater than 1 whenever sensory data overloads the ability for assimilation. This is to say, whenever data are presented to us that cannot be assimilated into our world view. A psychological name for this occurrence (i.e., for Re > 1) is a significant emotional event. Such events will either result in a breakdown of the psyche (e.g., cognitive dissonance) or to a change in the psyche's world view. They usually cannot be ignored with impunity. True, this is only one area in which chaos theory can be carried over, but I think it is rather significant. The problem, of course, is the mathematics. Scientists have neat equations (often in the form of differential equations) for relatively simple complex systems. Human beings are way too complex for such equations to be transported meaningfully. In fact, Jung laments the fact that mathematics simply won't work with psychic phenomena. So, I am really just transporting the principles or relationships behind the math (mathematics, is after all, just a language that describes relationships). Other interesting research is going on too. For example, scientists now know that there is no such thing as empty space - i.e., the vacuum of space is in fact filled, not only with 'virtual particles' but also with charge. The charge in the vacuum that exists between the electron and nucleus of the hydrogen atom, for example, has actually been measured. It causes the electron's orbit to skew. A few courageous complexity scientists are trying to show that this charge is instrumental in psychic phenomena and maybe life itself (through its effects on quarks up to molecules). Of course, scientists are trying to find the material cause of consciousness. I rather think that anything they find will be effects rather than causes, but I find the new research data to be stimulating. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:32:03 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Dialectic in the Voice Paul, you are really onto something. And to be honest, no, I don't think it was an accident. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if HPB translated the three fragments deliberately, but more to the point, they were likely already in that order in the original work which she simply quoted from memory. Your idea is very insightful, and probably 'right on.' Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:46:44 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: ethics topic for discussion For those of you who're bored with the same old thing, how about discussing the ethics of transnational corporations? That'd fall under the topic of what affects one affects all. From a book I read recently the 3rd world is getting exploited (dare I use the word ?) all over again without half realizing. My source is "The Global Factory" by Rachael Kamel, American Friends Service Committee, Omega Press 1990. The book presents a rather grim picture of what's being done under cover of the hope & belief of raising standards of living. .. unsafe factories & machinery ... poor parents sending their kids to work without any protection for the kids ... 12 hour work day very low pay by our standards, but higher than 3rd world people have been earning previously, and what's fair & not fair about that. The book's statstics are from the '80ies. Superficial discussion with my son, Bob, he doesn't agree with the book, so maybe some of you won't either. If that's too far out of the way, maybe we could just talk about the feeling you get when you walk into a bank as a potential depositor, as compared to as a potential borrower. Or how much spirituality is there in business ethics? Since we all know there isn't much, can we devise ways of trying to foster some? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:47:58 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: to Jerry Schueler, and to whom it may concern I have a knack for running one thing into another. The quotes from Lama Govinda are in quotation marks. Hate the deed & love the doer, and forgive but don't necessarily forget are Martin Luther King Jr.'s From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 13:47:18 -0500 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: RE: Chaos, Complexity, & Pyschology Jerry wrote: > Actually, complexity theory is a subset of chaos theory. The > Santa Fe Institute which looks at complexity theory began in 1984 > and many of those who participated were formerely associated with > chaos theory, which began in the early 60s. Technically, > complexity theory looks at the borderline area between order and > chaos: what has been called, the edge of chaos. Not to be too technical, but there are a number of different formulations of exactly what "Complexity Theory" really is. I have come at it from economics, and among those I discourse with, complexity theory would probably be described simply as the study of complex systems moving in multidimensional, multiscalar spaces. Some of these systems seem to cycle back and forth between states of (relative) order and chaos, others seem to remain perched on the "edge of chaos" (as Stuart Kaufmann so poetically put it). Chaos theory, then, is the study of one aspect (a "subset") of a complex system...the behaviour of the system in its chaotic phases. Complexity theorists have put a lot of energy into borderline conditions (because they are so interesting) but that is not all complexity theory is. The Santa Fe people are perhaps the best known, but are certainly not the only ones studying complexity...and in fact other researchers don't fully agree with the particular angle on complexity Santa Fe takes (e.g., Santa Fe, of late, seems to many to have rather overemphasized Artificial Intelligence/Artificial Life, fields whose assumptions and philosophical perspectives disturb & annoy a lot of scientists).. The Institute itself was begun by a few people who had studied chaos theory, and a good number who had not. In fact, I believe the original impulse came from (if I remeber correctly) an initial conference composed of a group of economists and a group of physicists who had sat down to discover whether there were points of possible conversation between their very different disciplines. Many of them had never worked with chaos theory. All this aside, I'd like to talk with you more about complexity/chaos' application to not only psychology but to the "spiritual" realm in general. But! before I go any further...my original post was to you & not the list, because I am unsure whether the list has any interest in this. Out of politeness, then perhaps I should ask the list...does anyone want to hear a complexity discourse, or would you prefer Jerry & I talk privately? And, to Jerry...I understand the ratio you speak of...its a interesting application of complexity...let me ask you if you've integrated scaling into your ideas...in your information "equations". Information certainly is delivered to the human awareness at many different (one might almost say `discrete') scales, i.e., the microsensations that thee physical environment delivers to us second by second as well as the continual impulses coming from within the body, to the larger scale emotional conceptual inputs coming from (for instance) a charged situation, to overwhelming large-scale movements that seem to sweep groups into harmonic resonance (i.e., the patriotic wave that swept the US during the Gulf War). Talk to you again soon (and, by the way, delightful to meet you!) -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:14:42 -0500 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: RE: Chaos, Complexity, & Pyschology Even though your discussion is over my head, I vote for continuing it in public. Hoping to learn something--- KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:29:46 -0500 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Martin Euser's latest essay Martin Euser has written an excellent essay on psychology and theosophy, which is quite long (if people don't mind, perhaps it could be sent to the mailing list?) For those who want to check it out, and have access to the Internet, check out this World-Wide Web reference: http://actrix.gen.nz/users/paul/theos.html Paul Gillingwater From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:50:48 -0500 From: John Mead Subject: Euser's essay > > Martin Euser has written an excellent essay on psychology and > > theosophy, which is quite long (if people don't mind, perhaps it > > could be sent to the mailing list?) > if you send it to me (personal e-mail to jem@vnet.net) I'd be > happy to add it to the Archives. It could then be accessed by > anyone through FTP or e-mail. > > is it copy righted?? > > how long is "long" ?? if over 5 (or so) pages (60 lines/page) it > may be best to just put it in the archives?? some people pay per > byte transmitted. > > peace -- > > john mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:51:47 -0500 From: KONEIL@pimacc.pima.edu Subject: Re: Martin Euser's latest essay Can the paper be retrieved by email or ftp? If so, what is the address? Thanks. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:21:47 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: another ethics topic Can we discuss what theosophists, Bodhisattvas-in-the-becoming, can do about violence, especially as it concerns kids. What are we, as a group & individually, doing that's more active than meditate peace, to protect kids from violence, said protection includes educating their parents? I've heard some things from Jerry & April H-E. The spark for this request comes from that during this past week we've had this gawdawful thing with that young Smith woman drowning her kids, because her boyfriend didn't want noise around. It's like "Medea". "When shall we ever learn?" And then she accused an unknown black man. Also this week a good friend of mine, someone who's continually studying to become more effective in his profession, serving mankind, this friend's 11 year old son got severely beat up by a gang of high school football bullies. And just now on the news over TV, a hi-rise janitor just happened to hear the stifled cry of a newborn, who'd been thrown into a trash compactor with a cloth stuffed into its mouth. The baby still had its umbilical cord. triple croche va! You can't just sit down & cry & feel compassionate. Starting in January, I've signed up to be a grandma to some child over the phone, since I don't have a car anymore. We have a 92 year old man in this building who was a math teacher before he became principal. He now goes to 2 neighborhood schools during the week to tutor Math. They love him. He was written up in the local paper. What a role model he makes! who needs it ... over the phone. That's at least something. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 20:31:58 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: ethics Aki, A> I think that if you are " an enlightened one" you have gone beyond duality of doer-action, you-world, mind-world, I-the others. Our consciousness is the dwelling place of our "I", this "I" reflects our thoughts and perceptions of the world, our self, etc. But all this is limited to our "I" and time. If you go beyond this setting you are no longer attached to your ego, world and time. Then you naturally no longer have any motives to your illusory play in this world. You may still have motives and such, but you don't think that it is "You" who have these things. A> I think this is a question of your overall motive. What is your goal in your life? If you want to have good Karma or get out of Samsara, in general - what you want? My guess is that we are pretty much on the same track, but our mutual understanding concerning "enlightenment" and "motive" seems to be unclear. I would consider the Masters "enlightened", yet they have clear personalities, feelings and "motives." Even a Nirmanakaya (which is not embodied on this planet) is said to still have human attributes. The Masters are supposed to be motivated by a desire for the spiritual advancement of all humanity. JHE> In the Mahatma Letters to Sinnett, K.H. writes that we > return good with good and evil with justice. A> Maybe we should do like that. The problem is; how we can judge what is good and what is evil? I think that is more secure to always respond with goodness and compassion. Is it so bid deal, if we accidentally respond evil with goodness? But if we make a mistake in applying our "justice" we may do a lot of damage. Perhaps so. Yet learning to judge what is "good" and what is "evil" and how to apply "justice" comes through study and practice. In practice, mistakes are made, and karma created--but it is through the making of mistakes and the creation of karma that we learn and grow. In the eighth century, the Buddhists of Northern India returned good for evil by refusing to fight the Moslems who invaded their homeland. The Buddhists were exterminated. Liesel, LD> [From A Govinda] "As already remarked, the equation of religion with morality was the most fateful of humanity's mistakes, and judgements such as 'good' and 'bad' have nothing to do with religion as such. And so the ethic of Buddhism has no injunctions beginning 'you must' or 'thou shalt'. Each person is regarded as an individual according to the degree of maturity in his insight and spiritual development, and treated as fully responsible accordingly." .... Great quote. The equation of religion with morality is a real entrenched idea. How many time have I heard one person refer to another as "a good Christian." Since when should Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, necessarily have anything to do with goodness? LD> ...It's the Masters' statement that "for us motive is everything". It's a very nice quote if you've done something that perhaps turned out cockeyed and you need to assuage your guilt. You've done it out of a motive you can accept, therefore you can accept your error. It's ignorance, not sin. And it helps you not get stuck, but move on to the next thing. LD> But now, suppose you're at the receiving end of this ignorance. You're suffering because of the mistake. I was going to take the Spanish Inquisition as an example. The motive was to save souls, but you saved them even if you had to maim & kill the body. To us, that's rather unacceptable, but weren't these clerics ascetics anyway? I almost forgot about that one. That's another great example to bring up when discussing karma. Are you aware that the primary concern that began the Spanish Inquisition was over the ~conversos~ (Jews who converted to Christianity, mostly in order to remain in Spain without being persecuted)? The Church figured out pretty fast that those converts were not necessarily practicing their new religion, in fact many secretly continued to practice Judaism. So the inquisition was devised to stop this. What would you suspect the underlying motive to be here? To save souls is one answer, but considering the circumstances that brought this about, I see deeper and far less honorable motives. Though motive may be everything, I don't think that we always understand the motives behind our actions. LD> For those of you who're bored with the same old thing, how about discussing the ethics of transnational corporations? That'd fall under the topic of what affects one affects all. From a book I read recently the 3rd world is getting exploited (dare I use the word ?) all over again without half realizing. My source is "The Global Factory" by Rachael Kamel, American Friends Service Committee, Omega Press 1990. The book presents a rather grim picture of what's being done under cover of the hope & belief of raising standards of living. .. unsafe factories & machinery ... poor parents sending their kids to work without any protection for the kids ... 12 hour work day very low pay by our standards, but higher than 3rd world people have been earning previously, and what's fair & not fair about that. The book's statstics are from the '80ies. Superficial discussion with my son, Bob, he doesn't agree with the book, so maybe some of you won't either. There has been a lot of documentation concerning corporate exploitation of third world countries--so much so that I find it inconceivable to deny what is going on. What does Bob disagree with? LD> If that's too far out of the way, maybe we could just talk about the feeling you get when you walk into a bank as a potential depositor, as compared to as a potential borrower. Or how much spirituality is there in business ethics? Since we all know there isn't much, can we devise ways of trying to foster some? A lot of people consider "government ethics" and "corporate ethics" oxymorons. I spent many years in middle management jobs in corporations, and got quite an eye full--price fixing; decisions designed to mislead employees and/or customers.... The attitude in upper management is that they are fighting a war of survival in a very competitive market--so management feels that they really don't have time to preoccupy themselves with petty considerations such as ethics. My wife found a doctorate dissertation done recently where a followup study was done on people who acting on principle called attention to and tried to take a stand against unethical practices in their work place. The study showed that typically the employee was fired, and often barred from ever getting another job in that industry. The whistle blower's life was severely disrupted--in some cases ruined, they are usually embittered by the experience, and the unethical practice was rarely stopped. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 04:50:29 -0500 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: Euser's essay John Mead writes: > if you send it to me (personal e-mail to jem@vnet.net) OK, I'll send it to you. > is it copy righted?? It's free for distribution if it remains intact, and not "published" without the permission of the author. > how long is "long" ?? if over 5 (or so) pages (60 lines/page) it > may be best to just put it in the archives?? some people pay per > byte transmitted. It is quite long. Yes, I also pay per byte of e-mail transmitted. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 04:51:58 -0500 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: Martin Euser's latest essay KONEIL@pimacc.pima.edu writes: > Can the paper be retrieved by email or ftp? If so, what is the > address? I'll see if it can be placed with the THEOS-L archives, in which case it will be available to all on this mailing list. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 09:13:31 -0500 From: euser Subject: copy of article on Theosophy Hi folks, For those that are interested I enclose a copy of my latest article on Theosophy. You probably need to save it to a file, because it is quite long. You may like to comment on it, do something with it or whatever. I also include a few added lines, thus: Add the term '(reincarnating)' in between the words 'Personal ego' on the righthand side of the egg-scheme. Add to the lefthand side of the egg-scheme under the heading 'Physical soul' the words: model-body, body and add an explanation at the bottom of the table below the egg-scheme: The physical soul consists of the model-body (a template), the formative cause of the physical body. The model-body is also a carrier of vital forces, that express themselves in the physical body. ** Here follows the article: This article will be dedicated to a thorough analysis of the _thinking_ faculty of man. It will also include some practical, safe, exercises for analyzing your own stream of thoughts. On the whole, it will be seen to provide the psychological _masterkey_ to spiritual growth for the individual as well as the collective, because it provides a _testable_ model of facts of life. By applying the practical methods given, everybody can recognize or verify the stated ideas about man, life and kosmos. Philosophers in the West have spent much time thinking about many topics. Rarely, however, did they analyze thinking _itself_. Now, obviously, it is a most remarkable fact that we as humans can reflect upon ourselves, ask ethical questions and make conscious decisions about our acts. So, it would seem only natural that we would ask ourselves the question: 'What _is_ the thinking faculty?' or: 'How does this faculty work and what are its attributes or aspects?'. The fact is, that we rarely do so. Theosophy explains why this is so, by stating that we are so to speak only beginners regarding the use of the thinking faculty. This will become apparent later on in this article. For clarity I will divide this article in five sections: Section 1 The composite constitution of man. A grand scheme of what man essentially is. Section 2 The seven aspects of thinking according to Theosophy. A brief description of these aspects is provided. Section 3 Thoughts and the thinking process. This section and the next two contain the psychological _key_ for changing your life. Section 4 Controlling the flow of thoughts. Changing the thought-pattern. Section 5 Socratic thinking: a question of mentality. What is lacking in our world? Internetresources Bibliography Use of this text Section 1. The composite constitution of man. The purpose of this section is to present in shorthand a 'model' of man, which can greatly enlarge our understanding about the relationship between 'us' and the Universe. If we get a feeling for this, it is easier to grasp what follows in the next sections, because 'what is above, is below' (the Hermetic axiom). Theosophy presents a kind of spiritual-material model of man. Remember, matter is viewed as crystallized spirit and spirit as rarified matter in Theosophy. Spirit and matter are ultimately states of One Principle that is the One Life-force. Even science recognizes the fact that matter and force are convertible into one another. The model below is sometimes called: the egg-scheme. See figure. World of Archetypes ----------|---------------------------------------- (Several planes/spheres) | <--------/ / / /SupremeSpirit ----------|----------/ | -----| | ------------- | / | | | Vehicular aspect | / | | |Consciousness of Life | / | | |aspect of Life ( | ) / | | | ( *|* / ) | | | ( * | * ) | | | ( * | * ) | | | Divine (-----------------------) | | | Divine Ego Soul ( * | * / | | ( * | * / ) | | ( *|* / ) | | ( | / ) | | ( %|% / ) | | ( % | % <--/ ) | | Spiritual (----------------------------------) / | Spiritual Ego Soul ( % | % ) / | ( %|% / | ( | /) | ( +|+ <-----------/ ) / Higher (------------ +-|-+ -------------) / Human ego Human Soul ( +|+ ) / (individual ego) ( | __________________/ "I am" ( -|- / ) Human Soul (--------- - | - ----------) Personal ego ( -|- ) (personality) ( | ) "I am I" Animal Soul (--------#|#---------) ( #|# ) Animal ego ( | ) ( | ) Physical Soul (-----X------) Body ( | ) ( | ) \|/ The circles within the egg-scheme are so-called 'monads': sparks of the universal life-force. These are pure spirit. The monads act as foci or knots for the stream of consciousness, that flows from the Supreme Spirit at the top of _our_ hierarchy (= most spiritual level in our hierarchy) down to the 'grosser' states of consciousness-matter. In order to manifest themselves, these monads need to make use of a dual pair of organized consciousness-matter. This dual pair is split up in the egg-scheme at the lefthand side (vehicular aspect = 'soul', carrier of consciousness') and at the righthand side (Ego or center of consciousness). Each ego in this scheme expresses the evolved faculties of the corresponding ego-emanating monad. The divine ego expresses far more faculties than the personal ego. Likewise, we as a person have evolved more qualities of consciousness than the animal monad, which forms a necessary part of our constitution. We need it and of course 'our' body in order to express ourselves in this world. Our personal consciousness is centered in the personal ego. The following table shows in a nutshell some of the developped qualities of consciousness of the diverse monads. See also lit. (1,2) Divine Monad: Inspiration, Unity-consciousness; Together with the spiritual monad: our inner god. Spiritual Monad: Enlightenment-principle (=understanding, intuition) Human Monad: Vitality, Emotion, Desire; also higher aspects of thought, and part of the understanding faculty. Personal Monad: Vitality, Emotion, Desire, Lower aspects of thought. Animal Monad: Vitality, Emotion, Desire The connection between the Human Monad and the Personal Monad will become clearer in sections 2,3 and 4. Note that we have in the recesses of our constitution a divine core that is sometimes called: our 'Higher Self' (=Inner God). This makes the notion of theurgy in the Gnostic literature a bit more understandable. Iamblichus ("De Mysteriis") writes interesting stuff about this. The working of the Divine in man (= theurgy) is possible, *just because there is a Divine element in man's constitution* This requires a highly pure and selfless life as will be easily understood. Our responsibilities towards the animal monad and the body are great but are completely unknown in our world. Yet, we can imagine that we have a great influence on this ego whether we think negatively or positively. This influence is 'stamped' into the fabric of consciousness of the animal ego. Further elaboration of this and kindred subjects can be found in lit. (1,2, and 7,8,9). Deeper study of this scheme and related ones will reveal many facts, like the connection of the more evolved monads with the seven sacred planets, the solar system and Milky Way. Gnostics speak of the Aeons (Angels, Archangels,etc.), Kabbalists of the (Sephirotic) tree of life, Indian Purana's of the Prajapati's. These are all names for the same hierarchical emanations from the One Principle and are all involved in the formation of our Kosmos. Remember, the third jewel of wisdom is concerned with hierarchies (see my first article). Also, the subject of cycles (second jewel) is heavily involved with the relations between the several monads in our constitution (and yes, so are the other jewels!). See lit.6. If we progress in consciousness by our own and collective effort, then we will transform ourselves from being a personal soul-ego-monad to a human soul-ego-monad, taking along the animal ego towards the stage of personal ego! This example shows the interconnectedness of the monads. See lit. (1,2) for further development of these thoughts. We will not concern ourselves further with these often very metaphysical (though important) subjects and confine ourselves to something more tangible: our personality. This will be the subject of all the following sections. Section 2. The seven aspects of thinking according to Theosophy. Theosophy proceeds from a spiritual point of view. It states that consciousness is primary to form or manifestation. Everything in the universe has or better _is_ life-consciousness that embodies itself in a suitable form according to the inherent characteristic (this is the fourth jewel of wisdom; see article #1). Thinking is a _special_ mode of consciousness, certainly not the highest form there is, and is typical of humans. The word 'man' is derived from the Sanscrit word 'manas', meaning: thinker. So, we are unique beings in having developped the faculty of thinking, at least to some degree. [thinking as a form of perception..of thoughts..verderop behandelen] Now, we can distinguish several mental activities and qualities. To give some examples of these: 1. We can direct our mental attention to our body and outside affairs. 2. We can pay mental attention to our emotions. 3. We can plan actions. 4. We can desire to have some nice friends. 5. We can calculate our due taxes. 6. We can try to understand how nature works or why others act as they do. 7. We can have some inspiration to compose beautiful music, etc. This diverse palette of activities involve all the use of thought-energies, often converted into action of some kind. Theosophy presents in this respect a practical, sevenfold, division of thinking: 1. The physical aspect of thinking 2. The emotional aspect " " 3. The vital aspect " " 4. The desire-aspect " " 5. The intellectual aspect " 6. The understanding aspect " 7. The inspirative aspect " A short description of these aspects will clarify their meaning. Also, we will see that each of these aspects have a lower and higher form themselves. This can be understood as an example of the application of the sixth jewel of wisdom (the duality of all that is manifested). All these aspects or qualities of thinking are forces that are related to the diverse monads and layers in the egg-scheme. The hierarchies of our Kosmos reflect themselves in our constitution and also in our thinking faculty. See lit.(1,2,8,9). These aspects can hardly be separated in our thinking, though usually one or two aspects are dominating. They work together comparable to a piece of music where we can hardly separate the individual notes from the whole, though key-chords can be recognized. If this sounds harmonious or dissonant is up to us! Special emphasis will be laid on the development of the sixth aspect of thinking (_understanding_). This will be described later. Description of aspects. ----------------------- 1. The physical aspect of thinking. This aspect is well known to us all. We say: "I'm hungry" and "I'm tired", etc. Of course, we mean to express something as: "My body is in a state of needing food", etc. This _seems_ trivial, but it is not. It indicates that we often identify ourselves with our bodies. Our thoughts are very much involved with our bodies. Interesting enough, we can experience the opposite state of consciousness, when we are absorbed in doing something that really interests us, causing us temporarily to forget about the needs of the body. Of course, we have to take care of our bodily needs. A proper question arises in this respect: how _much_ attention and time should we spend to bodily needs and how much to other affairs? This pertinent question can only be answered by us if we are conscious of the place our body takes in the totality of life, i.e. when we are conscious of the proper place of this aspect of thinking in relation to the other aspects. We will come back to this question later on. The higher form of this aspect can be found in dedication to the well-being of others and oneself. Some examples: medical care, care for bodily health for oneself and one's children, doing our duties regarding the world ,etc. [In fact, we see that we can hardly separate the several aspect of thinking. Vitality, emotion, aspiration, understanding, use of our body, all these aspects/forces work together.] The lower form of this aspect finds expression in thoughts of seperateness (the greatest heresy in Buddhism!). We think often that we have nothing to do with others ('mind your own business'), but this is not in accord with the spiritual point of view. 2. The emotional aspect of thinking. This aspect of thinking is related to the reaction on sensory impressions on our mind. If we don't use our conscious thinking before reacting, then it can be said that we react instinctively, comparable to what animals do. In fact the animal ego, and our body of course, is closely involved with the lower aspects of thinking. The emotional aspect is an important part of ourselves, as we all know. The higher form of this aspect can be seen in emotional involvement with issues in society, e.g. when we are committed to ameliorate bad conditions in slums, stimulating others to give their best, etc. The lower form of this aspect can be observed if someone feels hurt if a rightly critical remark is made or even a good advice is construed as a negative remark. More examples: false romance; strongly fluctuating feelings of sympathy and antipathy; egocentric feelings of 'how bad this world is' without real concern for suffering of others and no active partake in trying to change things. 3. The vital aspect of thinking. In (Western) societies we often see that people want to organize or fix about everything you can think of. We can observe that a great deal of energy or vitality is spent in these actions. It often turns out that we didn't think properly _before_ we acted. We didn't foresee the consequences of our actions. Also, we lack in understanding that we can often leave things to the wise mind of nature itself. A positive example is using your vitality for positive ends. A negative example is the destructive use of vitality for selfish purpose. This can be literally destroying things, but also building up business by manipulation or force ('maffia'). 4. The desire-aspect of thinking. The desire-aspect or force plays a major role in human thinking. The greater part of our actions arise from a desire towards something in this world. This can be anything: work, money, status,etc. but also an aspiration towards the realization of ideals. Theosophy looks at this force as a _neutral_ force, like electricity that flows through a wire ('the body'). Often, the notion of 'sin' is associated with 'desire'. This is a very limited point of view. Understanding the *motive* for our acts is of fundamental importance in the process of self-knowledge. This motive can be selfish or selfless. Rather than talking about 'good' or 'bad', which are relative terms, different in each culture and historical period, we better use the terms selfish or selfless as a criterion for judging our own acts and thoughts. We can deceive ourselves, however, by subtle motives, e.g. ambition which may be altruistic or may involve quite a bit of egoism, pride, etc. It takes a lot of sincerity to see our motives clearly for what they are. According to the degree of developped discrimination (discernment) or understanding we will recognize these subtle motives better. Are we slaves of our passions or do we control our mind's activities? This important subject is part of the discussion Krishna has with Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita. Example of higher form: Lofty aspirations . Example of lower form: Gross passions. 5. The intellectual aspect of thinking. While most of us equate intellectuality with thinking, Theosophy states that this is only one aspect, and not the highest, of thinking. Intellect works mostly with isolating problems out of their context. It gives fragmented, partial, knowledge. It has a limited ability to get to the core or essence of things, unless coupled with real understanding. It often leads to fighting against _symptoms_, solving nothing. Higher form: use of intellect to work out practical solutions in the context of really understanding what the core of a problem is or what a situation is really about. Lower form: sheer use of 'models' in science or wherever, without the necessary understanding of its inherent limits and shortcomings. 6. The understanding part of thinking. Some people might equate understanding with intellectuality. That this is not the case, will be clear by now. Understanding is sometimes called: 'intuition'. Sometimes we 'see' at once a solution to a complicated problem. We see this with the 'mental eye', so to speak. It can take considerable time after this flash of insight occurred to us, to work this out in a systematic fashion, by use of our intellectual aspect. Understanding is involved with grasping the relationship between parts and the whole. One sees the relationship between science, spirituality and philosophy. One appreciates the fact that you cannot really seperate the individual from the collective, etc. One recognizes the inbuilt harmony and order in man, nature, the Kosmos in general. Theosophy calls this aspect of thinking: the *enlightenment* aspect. If one has _fully_ developped this aspect,not only on the thinking level but above that, one is technically called: a Buddha. Example of higher form: use our understanding of things to help others, to improve conditions of humanity,etc. Example of lower form: using our understanding of the character of others to manipulate them. 7. The inspirative part of thinking. The influence of inspiration can be seen in great works of art. Also, mystics of all ages have witnessed great visions in a state of unity consciousness, an experience of the actual wholeness of all life. Sometimes we ourselves feel connected to all, absorbed into a feeling of unity, while walking in a forest,etc. In general terms, we can develop (identify ourselves with) this aspect only through developping our understanding or intuitive faculty. Example of higher form: creating masterpieces of art; bringing new concepts into science (based on genuine intuition) Example of lower (lowest) form: inspiring others to evil acts and thoughts. Often in charmfull disguise:'Operation Charm'; A wolf in sheep's clothes. If all seven aspects of thinking are completely developped, we can speak of a truly complete, harmonious, whole man. We have transformed ourselves from a personal ego to a human ego! Remember, the human ego type has developped already all the aspects of thinking. We, as a person, have just started to evolve some of the higher aspects a little bit. Section 3. Thoughts and the thinking process. The contemporary world with all its science and technology doesn't know much about the thinking faculty, thoughts, etc. Sure, science can register activities of the brain. A simple question however remains: what lies behind these activities? What is the cause or, maybe, are the causes, behind idea's, thoughts, etc. Recall the experiences of telepathy many people have had. And what about mystical experiences? These last ones certainly point in the direction of the possibility of spiritual communion with Higher, or better: Inner worlds of silence (to most of us), worlds full of life to others. The Old Wisdom-Religion (nowadays called Theosophy) clearly states that One Life is at the foundation of all manifested. Theosophy denies the existence of so called dead-matter. (The minerals are not dead, but in a 'sleeping' state so to speak) Everything has some mode of consciousness, _is_ consciousness, enwrapped in some form, consisting in its turn of minor consciousnesses. We see here again an example of the principle of hierarchies. The conclusion must be that even thoughts are living beings. Besides having a vibratory aspect they have life in themselves. We will present strong arguments for this shortly. The stream of thoughts that pass through our mind consists of hosts of living beings. Our thinking faculty is so to speak the capability of *perceiving* thought-forms or images. We will see soon that we do not have to passively undergo the influences of these beings. The concept of the stream of thought as a host of LIVING beings provides an important *key* to changing our lives! By applying this knowledge (see also subsequent sections) we can open new vistas of perception and experience. Of course, we have to experience the correctness of this point of view in our own thinking, before we can apply this key. Let's have a look at the characteristics of living beings. What is required for something to be called alive? 1. Living beings are subject to the processes of birth and death. 2. Living beings require food of some kind. 3. Living beings have a character of their own. 4. Living beings can procreate in some way. 5. Living beings do have some consciousness of their own. Analysis of thoughts will learn, that they conform to all of these points: #1. Regarding history, one often talks of the 'birth of an idea' in a certain era. Many examples can be given. Not only such dramatic events as the French Revolution but many other gradually unfolding episods like the Renaissance, the industrial revolution, the computer-era, the information super-highway, etc. can be seen in this way. After birth of an idea, it will grow, evolve to some extent and finally die, to be replaced by another idea (thought). #2. We all know that we often have some desires, maybe to buy something or so. If we fulfill this desire, the associated thought often quickly dies. If we can't fulfill it, one of two things can happen: we either forget about it or this desire becomes real strong, up to the point that we _have_ to fulfill this desire. We almost drive ourselves crazy untill we have got this wish fulfilled. We are constantly feeding this thought with our desire-energy (the fourth aspect of thinking), making this thought real strong and big. Many examples can be found of this process, showing that we can loose control of ourselves and get entangled in some acts resulting in a real messy situation. Oh, how do we desire that we never had done these things.. Thoughts take form and last longer corresponding to the degree to which they are sustained. They will die sooner when we spend little attention to them. #3. The own character of a thought can be understood as follows: if we recall the fact that we are sometimes confronted with strange or incomprehensible thoughts, which we soon forget, then we can understand this to be due to the deviance of the character of these thoughts from our own character. These thoughts simply cannot find a proper soil in us to root and sprout. Inversely, a thought or idea will strike a note in our consciousness much easier if the character of this idea conforms to the character of our personality. Racist ideas will easier resonate in one's mind if one has an element of or tendency towards racism already in oneself. Art will be more appreciated if we have a sense of beauty or harmony developped in ourselves. #4. The procreation of thought might seem a little odd at first sight. Yet, we all know about this. If a teacher tells us about something, and we 'buy' it, then these thoughts find a fertile soil in our minds, enabling them to grow, flower and come to fruition. On our turn we can transfer these ideas to others ('sow these thought-seeds'), where they can find a new life, etc. #5. A thought has its _own_ consciousness. We all know, that we can be quite 'obsessed' by thoughts sometimes. We have great difficulty to break out of some strong thought-influence. The thought has grown to gigantic proportions, blocking other thoughts out of our consciousness. How to deal with such a situation? We _must_ concentrate with all our efforts on other thoughts, do some action, to break out of this iron hold. A constructive approach is given in the next section. A positive example of this own consciousness is when we are caught by some grand, inspirative thought, leading us into unselfish acts we normally would not do. In order to investigate the nature of thoughts as living beings, it is advised to see oneself more as a _witness_ of thoughts than as a creator of thoughts. Think of oneself as a part of the One Life that is the essence of all. That will make it easier to get in the state of witnessing thoughts. A good exercise to learn in what 'track' your thoughts naturally flow, is to observe your thought-flow on the moments before you fall asleep. Just observe as a witness (in this exercise). You can learn to recognize the quality or character of these thoughts, and, to recognize the several aspects of thinking. This will be a help in the process of getting to understand yourself better. You can also do this exercise on a quiet moment of the day. If you don't like what you see, then you can apply the methods in the next sections for changing your thought-pattern. The thinking process. Theosophy makes a division in _conscious_ thinking and _unconscious_ thinking. This has to be clarified. Unconsciousness thinking is what we all do too often. We uncritically accept the dogma's of science, commercial slogans, technological innovations (are these ever being discussed worldwide or even nationwide on their ethical implications?), political propaganda, etc,etc. It's quite easy for strong personalities to force these idea's into the minds of the people, as long as these last ones don't know anything about the effects of thoughts on the situation in the world. Yet, we should know better. We all know how war propaganda can drive people crazy. This ignorance about the thought-process and the effects of thoughts on others and ourselves has brought many disasters to mankind. We are in the illusion that we think consciously, that we control our thoughts, while the facts point in another direction.. Fact is that we are drifting on the waves of thoughts projected and amplified by strong personalities who have clear reasons to do so (for personal gain, political power, commercial reasons, etc.). Mind, that this is all cleverly done.. We are made to believe to have so many rights (what about our duties?), made to believe that we need this or that latest object of technology (do we need it really?), made to belief almost anything. It's a scary situation. How can we break out of this passive kind of thinking? By *conscious* thinking. The _recognition_ of thoughts as living beings is an important step towards conscious thinking, because it leaves no room for doubt about the responsibility one has for one's thoughts. Thoughts are simple, elemental beings that follow slavishly the impulse that is given to them. They mostly express their own consciousness when the thought-process gets out of control... Many psychological disturbances could be prevented if these facts were known and the knowledge of these things was correctly applied. In order to illustrate the process of thinking, one can think of the technique of transmitting radio or television waves. A receiver can pick up certain frequencies and by attuning to one of the channels messages are made visible and can be understood. Likewise, a person picks up thoughtwaves that lie within his bandwidth of thoughtfrequencies. The human thinking faculty can function both as a transmitter and receiver. When we look at a child, we can observe that it has its own character already at birth. Gradually it starts expressing its character during the first years of life. This character forms so to speak the bandwidth within which thoughts can be received or perceived. Nurture, education, and all kind of other factors influence the child and limit this bandwidth further by offering a narrow perspective on life. Not that the child doesn't resist tradition and prejudice, e.g in puberty, but the milieu's influences are usually too strong to resist. And so another 'decent' citizen is born, neatly adapted to the utilitarian way of life. This explains why new, refreshing ideas have so much trouble to enter into the human mind. Our minds are just too crystallized in traditional concepts and notions of life. The receiving brainmind can only pick up thoughts of certain frequencies and (re)transmit them. This fact is unconsciously (?) misused for commercial and political ends. How to change this all? First of all, the process of change should begin with the individual himself, because he must realize in which mental situation or state he is in. Then only he can decide to change his way of thinking. He can tune in to other frequencies of thought, i.e. the higher aspects of thinking we spoke of before, finer qualities of thought. Now, we _won't_ book any success if we try to combat our faults of character. Why not? This is because by combat we *feed* our thoughts, which are living beings. So they will grow stronger instead of starve to death. Instead of combat, we should forget about the unwanted thoughts, let them die. For this we need _recognition_ of these thoughts and give them a positive impulse by simply thinking an opposite, positive thought. By thinking and acting according to this positive thoughts we outweigh, outbalance the effect of the negative thoughts. By persisting in this practice we can change the quality of thoughts and also make our thinking faculty function on other frequencies, more brotherly, spiritual, positive, etc. After some practice we will even no longer receive these negative thoughts. By using this information about thoughts and the thinking process, we can make a big step towards selfless thinking, enhancing our understanding of things and open up the road to inspirative thinking! This is a _practical_, _feasible_, _testable_ procedure which every sincere person can apply to his or her own life! Section 4. Controlling the flow of thoughts. Changing our thought-pattern. The reason for getting control over our thought-life will be clear by now: by controlling the kind of thoughts that enter into our minds, we can exert a powerfull, positive, harmonious influence on this world and also avoid being carried away by harmfull desires. We can use the force of thoughts without any danger if we concentrate our mind on a high _ideal_, that aims at the well-being of humanity in general, e.g. the ideal of human brotherhood. Think about this ideal and eliminate all elements in your thinking that are in conflict with this, by replacing these with positive building stones (thoughts). These thoughts will touch many minds and create a driving-force for changing conditions in this world. Persistent and purposeful thinking is necessary to achieve this. By practising selflessness and selfforgetfulness one will also see effective ways to help others to help _themselves_. Many, but not enough, people are doing this kind of things already for a long time. Do you want to join them? Changing the thought-pattern. A further investigation. We have seen already how we can change our thought-pattern. To elucidate this process further we will look at some important issues of character. Marcus Aurelius says in his 'Meditations' that: "your life is what your thoughts make of it". This truth is based upon the fact that behind each act there stands a corresponding thought and the fact that a repeated act becomes a _habit_. Habits form our character, i.e. our pattern of life. A critical investigation into our own thought-life will render an understanding of these facts. From this follows the conclusion that changing our habits of thinking will lead to changes in our character! Of course, we will have to exercise this practice of changing our habits of thinking. The direction of change should be towards impersonal, selfless thoughts. There are great examples in history of men and women who practiced great self-forgetfulness, worked for the benefit of all, fought against dogmatism, group-interests and injustice, created great pieces of art,etc. These were the real founders of civilizations! They can be our examples. Everybody can become a purveyor of culture and help build a society in which every human being has the opportunity to open out the best qualities that are within him or her. The only thing one has to do is to use the creative powers that are within oneself. The technique is simple: use your imaginative power by creating an image of how you want to be! On the one hand you know what your character is now, on the other hand you know how you want to be (and potentially are, deep inside: the human ego!). You can make your personality transparant to the inner qualities of the human ego (a separate, but connected entity), allowing these energies to flow through your personality. This can be called "attunement to the spiritual worlds", "building the bridge to the inner worlds", "setting up spiritual vibrations",etc., greatly influencing the world for the better. These forces work all through the astral light, the connecting sphere or spheres for inner and outer planes of being, explaining for example how a thought-impuls leads to a movement of the body, how telepathy works,etc. (see lit. 3,4,5,6,7). By this process you will transform yourself gradually into a more complete human being. The higher aspects of thinking will be able to express themselves in you. Our personality is connected with the human ego. Our thinking faculty is derived from the human ego. It is from one perspective a kind of 'reflection' of the pure ray of thought, emanating from our human ego, onto the turbulent mirror of our brain-mind. More information can be found in lit.(3). You will have to form an image of yourself of how you want to be and perfect this image. This ideal picture will grow and refine to the extent that your understanding of life will grow. You will encounter difficulties, no doubt about that, as you will experience relapses in old modes of thinking and acting. This should be a stimulus to persist in changing your habits of thinking. A helpful exercise, sometimes ascribed to Pythagoras, consists of looking back at , evaluate, the events of the day when you go to bed. Ask yourself: "What did I do this day?", "did I do as I planned to do?", "what did I _learn_ from this day?", "what things can I do better?", "Did I hurt somebody?", etc. This is very useful for coping with the world's affairs and will help you to profit more from deep sleep since you already 'processed' some stresses and strains from the day. Of course, this exercise should be done with a sincere attitude of mind. Also, you will understand your weaknesses more clearly as your consciousness is raised. This is only to be expected and these weaknesses should not be combatted but forgotten. One becomes what one thinks. One is that with what one _identifies_ oneself with. Think about yourself as a man or woman who is capable of understanding the background of life and who is capable of realizing high ideals in practical life. Be a creator of uplifting ideas and you will become a living embodiment of these! Section 5. Socratic thinking: a question of mentality. What is lacking in our world? Plato differentiates between Wisdom and knowledge. In his dialogues, Socrates proceeds from the point of view that he knows nothing with _certainty_. This enabled him to question people about their opinions, showing that their opinion was based on ignorance of the _real_ causes of life's manifestations. It enabled him also to avoid _dogmatism_, as his thinking was not cloaked or veiled with personal opinions or concepts. Thus, he was able to put himself mentally in the position of others and understand what the other meant. Seen from the perspective of the different aspects of thinking we can say that Socrates tried to use the higher aspects of his thinking, avoiding prejudice and tradition. This is a _practice_ of the faculty of understanding and discrimination! A careful analysis of these dialogues,e.g. Symposion and Apology, will render much food for thought as to how the Socratic method works. What is lacking in our world. If we apply the Socratic method of thinking to the belief-systems of people about life and to human life in this world in general, we will discover that there is quite some dogmatism involved, as well in religious,philosophic as scientific sense. Often, the visions held are in conflict with observable facts. Not to mention the fact that that there are great differences of opinion between radically different beliefsystems as religion and science (yes, science too! - see Paul Feyerabend's "against method"). If we think critically about this, and don't pay any attention to authorities then we end up with the question: "who is right?". Now, obviously, this is not a question of: 'what does the majority of people believe', because truth can only be found by those who have the consciousness to perceive this truth. We need a philosophy of life that can answer all pertinent questions about life, death, suffering, morality, etc. This philosophy should not conflict with the basic facts of science (but will conflict with the many speculative theories) and should conform to the _universal_ ideas common to all great religions and philosophies (often clothed in allegories and symbolism). This philosophy should be the natural synthesis of science, religion and philosophy. It must point the way to a society in which each individual can realize his best abilities, express his higher aspects of thinking and lead to peace and understanding. Finally, it should give safe guidelines for our actions and thinking. As I pointed out in my first article and corroborated this with this second, Theosophy _is_ such a synthesis. References to Internetresources Spirit-WWW Site: http://zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au/Spirit.html Theosophy-WWW Site: http://actrix.gen.nz/users/paul/theos.html A discussion list on Theosophy (through Email) is available on request, if permission of the participants of this list is got. Bibliography 1. Fundamentals of the esoteric philosophy. G. de Purucker. TUP-press. ISBN 0-911500-63-4 ISBN 0-911500-64-2 A good introduction to the Secret Doctrine (H.P.Blavatsky's masterwork). 2. Esoteric instructions #9 , G.de Purucker. Point Loma Publications, Inc. P.O. Box 6507 San Diego, Calif. 92106 3. The key to Theosophy. H.P.Blavatsky. Theosophical University Press (TUP). Postoffice Bin C, Pasadena, Cal. 91109 - 7107 USA tel. (818) 798-3378 An excellent intro to Theosophy. ISBN 0-911500-06-5 cloth ISBN 0-911500-07-3 softcover Other useful books: 4. The ocean of Theosophy. W.Q. Judge. TUP-press (see #1) ISBN 0-911500-25-1 cloth ISBN 0-911500-26-x paper A concise intro to Theosophy. 5. Echoes of the Orient. W.Q. Judge. (3 volumes) Point Loma Publications, Inc. P.O. Box 6507 San Diego, Calif. 92106 Contains many excellent magazine articles (vol. 1 ,2) and comments & suggestions about esoteric teachings (vol.3) 6. The Secret Doctrine (2 vol's), H.P. Blavatsky. (TUP). ISBN 1-55700-001-8 cloth ISBN 1-55700-002-6 softcover 7. The esoteric tradition (2 volumes). G. de Purucker. (TUP) A thorough work on many theosophical teachings. Contains also comments on science in the thirties. ISBN 0-911500-65-0 cloth ISBN 0-911500-66-9 paper 8. Fountain-source of occultism. G. de Purucker. (TUP) An advanced book on esoteric topics. ISBN 0-911500-70-7 cloth ISBN 0-911500-71-5 softcover 9. The dialogues of G. de Purucker (TUP) Very diverse, but offers valuable insights on practical human problems and also profound themes of Theosophy. ISBN 0-911500-59-6 (3 volumes) 10. Man in evolution. G. de Purucker. (TUP) A book that analyzes Theosophy in relation to science. ISBN 0-911500-55-3 NOTE on the use of this text. All non-commercial use of this text for educational purposes, discussion, etc. is freely allowed. The same applies for my first article on theosophy: science+religion=Theosophy(1). The _only_ requirement is that a reference is made to the location of these original texts, i.e. one of the WWW-sites above mentioned. The reason for this is that people should be able to lookup these original articles for purposes of reference and context. Also, interested people can get a copy from me on request through E-mail. Martin Euser E-mail: euser@xs4all.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 09:27:38 -0500 From: astrea@actrix.co.at (Astrea) Subject: Re: Martin Euser's latest essay paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) writes: > Martin Euser has written an excellent essay on psychology and > theosophy, which is quite long (if people don't mind, perhaps it > could be sent to the mailing list?) > For those who want to check it out, and have access to the Internet, > check out this World-Wide Web reference: > > http://actrix.gen.nz/users/paul/theos.html > > Paul Gillingwater > Yes, I read this. It was very impressive, I thought, with some good practical suggestions. However, one question occurred to me, which relates not only to this essay, but most theosophical dispositions on the spiritual anatomy of (wo)man. The composition of a person is generally set out as going up from the physical body and personality ie the "lower vehicles", to the Atma, Buddhi ie "higher vehicles" in a very hierarchical arrangement. It is somehow implicit that anything emanating from the personality and body is worse, or "less developed" that something emanating from the "higher principles." The question is this: what if the Divine Principle is equally active on all levels but in different ways? What if this hierachy of "higher and lower" is soley an imposition of the human mind? I am reminded of certain hermetic teachings " As above, so below." "There is nothing high, nothing low, in the divine economy," nothing more important than anything else... This rigid division of functionality and, implicitly, morality has a result in its members. Because the physical world is generally distained, many members tend to be quite inactive in the world - "armchair theosophists", you might even say. "Action" on the inner planes is deemed to be more effective ie sitting around thinking about things. It is true that this hierarchical view is not unique to theosophy. It seems to be implicit in Xianity, some forms of Hinduism and Kabalistic teachings as well. In Buddhism - I think that some of the deeper teachings may recognise the "emptiness" of all forms, both physical, mental and spiritual - and if everything is empty, then everything is full....But this is getting too far away from a discussion of theosophy. In some forms of Hinduism, _everything_ that exists is the Lila, or play, of the Lord, and thus both inherently Divine and illusionary at the same time. What does this mean to us as human beings? Any ideas? ASTREA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 20:06:01 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: theosophy/psychology article Martin Euser, I just finished your article on the composite seven principles schema (in terms of monads, egos and souls) as related to psychology. This is exactly the type of inquiry that I had hoped to see more of on theos-l, and applaud your effort. Unless you have objections, I plan to copy (publish) your article for distribution to our study group for discussion and comments. I have some general comments on some points in your article that I hope will generate more discussion: >In order to manifest themselves, these monads need to make use >of a dual pair of organized consciousness-matter. Of course we also need to keep in mind that the consciousness aspect (ego) is a product of the interfacing of spirit (monad) and matter (soul)--this is using the dePurucker definitions which you seem to be employing here. Therefore, I would see the manifestation of the monads through the egos. Mind is relatively transient in its manifestation on any given plane because of its dependence upon the interface of spirit and matter. Thus personality consciousness does not survive long after the body, and the manasaputras are limited to this manvantara. Thus as you stated very well: >Now, we can distinguish several mental activities and qualities. >To give some examples of these: > >1. We can direct our mental attention to our body and outside >affairs. >2. We can pay mental attention to our emotions. >3. We can plan actions. >4. We can desire to have some nice friends. >5. We can calculate our due taxes. >6. We can try to understand how nature works or why others act >as they do. >7. We can have some inspiration to compose beautiful music, etc. > >This diverse palette of activities involve all the use of >thought-energies, often converted into action of some kind. >Theosophy presents in this respect a practical, sevenfold, >division >of thinking: > >1. The physical aspect of thinking >2. The emotional aspect " " >3. The vital aspect " " >4. The desire-aspect " " >5. The intellectual aspect " >6. The understanding aspect " >7. The inspirative aspect " Since consciousness is an infinitely graded plane, it is traditionally defined by establishing poles (lokas and talas). Since the division of anything that is infinitely graded must be arbitrary, the choosing of one possible division over another is done for the purpose of getting across one or another aspect of the teachings. Thus one division will always be as good as another, depending upon what you want to get across. I've always been a little less brave than you, and stayed with the traditional Lokas and talas for teaching purposes even though their meaning have been intentionally obscured. Your schema is however no less interesting, and brings out a subdivision of conscious thought handled very differently in the traditional schema. I would just add that your choice of division (implying the use of the seven principle scheme) implies the presence of the other six divisions of thinking within any one. Thus each division seems to be more of a keynote within a common theme rather than a discrete area of consciousness. >"My body is in a state of needing food", etc. >This _seems_ trivial, but it is not. It indicates that we >often identify ourselves with our bodies. Our thoughts are very >much involved with our bodies. And of course, the intermediary between our thoughts and bodies are the centers of sensation within the Linga Sarira. [From section three] >#4. The procreation of thought might seem a little odd at first >sight. Yet, we all know about this. If a teacher tells us about >something, and we 'buy' it, then these thoughts find a fertile >soil in our minds, enabling them to grow, flower and come to >fruition. On our turn we can transfer these ideas to others >('sow these thought-seeds'), where they can find a new life, >etc. This brings to mind the game of "telephone" where an idea is passed down from person to person, going through many metamorphosis. All of those personality elementals within us have their own program--expectations, thus thoughts are modified to fit them. As you express below, the advertising media is learning to take advantage of this and use it to their own ends: >This ignorance about the thought-process and the effects of >thoughts on others and ourselves has brought many disasters to >mankind. We are in the illusion that we think consciously, that >we control our thoughts, while the facts point in another >direction.. >Fact is that we are drifting on the waves of thoughts projected >and amplified by strong personalities who have clear reasons to >do so (for personal gain, political power, commercial reasons, >etc.). Mind, that this is all cleverly done.. We are made to >believe to have so many rights (what about our duties?), made to >believe that we need this or that latest object of technology >(do we need it really?), made to belief almost anything. It's a >scary situation. Scary indeed. The newest technique is "focusing groups" used by the California Governor Pete Wilson. He gets groups of people together so that he can identify which issues are most emotionally potent (creates the most anxiety). Once the fears of the people are identified, a law is formed designed to sooth those fears, and cater to the belief systems (realistic or not) of the voters. Out of this process came the "three strikes law" which makes the execution of a three time felon manditory, and proposition 187, which denies schooling and medical aid for undocumented farm workers. Both passed with huge margins of course, making our governor quite a hero. Now these laws will have to be tested for constitutionality, which few believe that they will pass. So in these instances lawmaking has been reduced to the expression of the collective feelings and fears of the people. [From Section 4] >We have seen already how we can change our thought-pattern. >To elucidate this process further we will look at some important >issues of character. We used to discuss this in a study group I was involved in over twenty years ago. The leader of this group advocated that we substitute desirable thoughts when we experience undesirable ones. So far so good--this seems to work, though it raises issues concerning the suppression of thoughts. As for the concentration of our mind upon a high ideal, the issue came up about the unconscious expression of thoughts. When one is in meditation concentrating upon the "ideal of human brotherhood" for instance, there is also the possibility of more powerful unconscious negative thoughts being emanated. I remember in the sixties, a person who used to sit on the lawn during the Griffith Park love-ins in Los Angeles, meditating on love and peace etc. Several of us noticed that violence kept erupting around him, and began to seriously wonder whether or not he was really generating an energy quite the opposite of his (conscious) intentions. HPB discusses "the evil eye" being the powerful unconscious thoughts of some people, which brings misfortune on others. >If we apply the Socratic method of thinking to the >belief-systems of people about life and to human life in this >world in general, we will discover that there is quite some >dogmatism involved, as well in religious,philosophic as >scientific sense. This is a very powerful and under rated methodology that we have been experimenting with for some years. Astrea raises the very interesting question and comment: > The question is this: what if the Divine Principle is equally > active on all levels but in different ways? What if this > hierachy of "higher and lower" is soley an imposition of the > human mind? I am reminded of certain hermetic teachings " As > above, so below." "There is nothing high, nothing low, in the > divine economy," nothing more important than anything else... > > This rigid division of functionality and, implicitly, morality > has a result in its members. Because the physical world is > generally distained, many members tend to be quite inactive in > the world - "armchair theosophists", you might even say. > "Action" on the inner planes is deemed to be more effective ie > sitting around thinking about things. I think this is a good reminder that our divisions are indeed for our convenience of understanding. The inactivity among today's theosophists is in stark contrast to the efforts of the founders in the early days. Whatever the founders might have been doing on the "inner planes", they kept very busy on this plane of action building schools, writing and interacting with others to promulgate the ideals of theosophy. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 20:07:31 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Reply to Paul Paul. I got my QUEST today and enjoyed the book reviews that you mentioned. I was also happily surprised to find an article by Dr. Daniel Noel. It so happens that he is my mentor at the Graduate School of America. All in all, its a great issue. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 22:20:04 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Complexity & Choas John Agreed. I have absolutely no background in economics, and will assume you are correct in those areas. John I believe the term for the first type is intermittency - one of the three "routes to chaos" (the other two being crisis and period-doubling). There is certainly a lot of ongoing work looking at systems in their chaotic phases, but how systems evolve to chaos is also an area of concern. To some extent, there is even disagreement about when full chaos is reached. Different systems tend to display chaos differently. John Agreed. One of the strongest voices against AI is probably Roger Penrose. I just bought his latest book about this, but haven't had time to read it yet. John True. I was being overly simplistic. John Wow! I am not sure what you mean here? We will have to define terms. I view "spiritual" as that which lies above the Abyss, which is to say above the Ring-Pass-Not of the human mind. Chaos begins in the Abyss, and is reflected 'downward' into matter throughout the 'lower' planes (I am here using the Gupta Vidya Model supplied by HPB in the SD Vol I; the Abyss is just above Globes A and G, and separates the 7 lower Globes from the 5 upper Globes according to the 12-Globe model presented by G de Purucker. The Abyss, the real source of all chaos, is equivalent to the 11th Sephiroth, Daath, in the Qabala). John According to Claude Shannon, the founder of information theory, information refers simply to the number of possibilities, Z. So that information, I, can be expressed as: I = log to the base 2 of Z Shannon used the logarithm to the base 2 because modern communication works with binary numbers or bits. The human mind probably does not work in binary. However, the idea still holds that Z will be large, so therefore I will be large. Shannon also developed the equation for what is called the Shannon uncertainty, Shannon entropy, or simply information entropy. It consists of a negative constant times the integral of the probability of information times the log of that probability. However, Shannon information does not concern itself with meaning, and it only applies to closed systems. Of course, like you suggested, a lot of information comes to us without meaning - such as the background 'noise' of our environment. I doubt that equations will apply to the brain's ability to receive information like electronic equipment does. However, a lot is being done in research today, such as looking at the brain as a complex of parallel circuits. And several brain models are being discussed, but again, even the most simple ones are skimpy with equations. I agree with you that incoming data must be scaled. The idea that I am currently working on is that our brain, as a complex system, undergoes bifurcations. I am not so sure about period- doubling, because there are simply too many variables. But as the brain approaches a bifurcation point, only a tiny outside influence is needed to cause drastic changes. In some cases, its rather like the straw breaking the camel's back. I read all sorts of horror stories in the newspapers and on TV news, such as a kid who shoots his parents because they won't but him a radio, or a 'good' student pulling out a gun and shooting everyone on campus because he only got a B in some class, and so on. While these are dramatic, we all go through bifercations at various points in our lives, many for the best (they are nothing more than instances in time where choices must be made; where our lives go down one particular road rather than another). Often these critical points can be detected via 'nuances' and taken advantage of. But I am not so sure that we can actually develop mathematical equations for this kind of thing for individual people (although statistically we may, as people tend to follow the Poisson distribution in their collective actions). I guess one of the things that I am trying to say here, is that you can't always tell what the scale should be, because the psyche gives events 'meaning' in a very individual manner, as per Jung's synchronicity. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 22:21:20 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Response to Liesel Liesel I worked for the Government for 30 years before retiring. But I never really came across the kind of ethical things that happen in business. Except for one particular incident. I made an evaluation of a system for the Army to the effect that it was an unsafe item, and was overruled by my 2-star general who personally re- wrote my conclusions. I refused to sign my name to the report, and so my supervisor signed it. The Army bought a lot of those things, and as far as I know, they have had a lot of accidents with them. I also observed some waste of paxpayers money here and there, but nothing criminal (mostly stupidity). It is my experience, however, that Jerry H-E is right when he describes the fate of whistle-blowers. Government, like business, wants "teams" and whistle-blowers are not team players. I think the literature is pretty clear, though, that most people who have to lie or cheat in business and who sit in church and hear morality preached to them, will eventually have a mental breakdown at some point. The psychological term is cognitive dissonance - we rationalize away impossible or immoral situations because of practical necessity. Those who have a conscience will only be able to do this temporarily. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 22:35:53 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: To: Jerry H-E, Re: ethics of 11-11 Taking your response to my quoting Lama A. Govinda, I realised that I was transmitting only half his meaning. The rest of the chapter (& probably the book) describes the Buddhist way without the concepts of good & evil. Just another brief quote to elucidate "... greed & hatred are here recognized as the principal obstacles on the path. The mind must free itself from these hampering factors by developing helpful powers to counteract them. These are generosity & love, which are the precise equivalents of nongreed & non-hatred. "If a person has once realized this deep within, in heart and mind, and if that person has only the one wish remaining, to gain enlightenment for the sake of all beings, then what is 'wholesome' and 'unwholesome' will become obvious of its own accord. A truth seeker will not lie, and one who has the well-being of all beings at heart will avoid slander & harsh speech as well as all vain & foolish chatter." Re the Spanish Inquisition - I didn't know that it started as a way to root out "conversos". It sounds 99% like evil intent to me, but it could perhaps be that they were intent on saving souls. Just incidentally, some of my ancestors left Spain for Germany because of the Inquisition. Also I'm sometimes asked whether I'm Italian. My stock answer is that it's possible, because my ancestors came through Rome. Jewish custom was & is that the children take on the religion of the mother. I still wish we could think up some ways to counteract unethical business practices. I'm not working anymore. I can't lose my income. I've done a few small things in my time. One of them is trying to practice our belief in universal brotherhood. What bothers me is that this warps our whole way of life, almost all over the world. That means that it has an "unwholesome" influence on the world's Karma. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 17:38:01 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com> Subject: Continuous vs Discrete Jerry's comments to Martin's essay have left me with a thought: Jerry write, This comment is rather obscure, although I think I know what was intended. I know that the early theosophical writers implied that consciousness can somehow move across the cosmic planes in a continuous manner (nature never makes abrupt moves, I think G de P says somewhere. If consciousness can make motions that are continuous, so that we slowly gradually ease from one to the other (i.e., by ascending or descending subplanes) then divisions become relative, as Jerry implies. However, I rather think that consciousness moves in jumps, much like quanta on the subatomic level. We know today that nature does, in fact, move in jumps and is as discontinuous as it is continuous (e.g., quantum mechanics). Experience also tells us that our consciousness moves from plane to plane in jumps. This is further substantiated by looking a HPB's Gupta Vidya Model, in which all vertical paths between Globes are "laya centers" which HPB clearly points out are discontinuous leaps rather than paths. In fact, it is just in this area where I have found the most discrepancy between her GV Model and the Qabalistic Tree of Life where the Sephiroth are all interconnected by 22 pathways that can be explored by consciousness - thus the Tree is relatively continuous while the GV Model (using laya centers, which HPB says is the *only* way to cross through the planes) is not. Anyone have some ideas on this? In any case, it seems to me that consciousness jumps into the lokas and talas (which I believe correspond to the Globes of the GV Model) rather than eases into them through some kind of pathway. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:24:32 -0500 From: Arthur Patterson Subject: Silence Continued Slowly To All, The last time I wrote to Theos-l I was struggling with the road of negation depicted in fragment one of the Silence. Paul Johnson gave some subsequent good advice to try to look at a thesis , anti-thesis, synthesis paradigm. Taking this to heart has helped. It goes to show that the entirety of texts need to be understood before the pieces make any sense. Hard to do when you are in a rush to understand. A rush is exactly what he Silence doesn't propose in any of its parts. So to look at my experience through Silence, I see that I was being dominated by an instinctuality. When I thought about it it was that I thought that I couldn't trust my mind, or whatever guides it, to work through the Silence slowly. I felt I had better get through this now - I may give up - or begin chasing some other intellectual shillobeth. In the context of my whole life I see that I do that because of a fear of death. I had better get all that I need before I die. This is an example of the sensate terrestrial consciousness that the Silence speaks of. I was confusing the lust of learning to the light of consciousness. If thou would'st cross the first hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burns therein for the Sunlight. p 6. I was doing exactly that the Silence warned about. There was a wonderful warning in the material, written in such poetic language, Behold, the Hosts of Souls. Watch how they hover o'er the stormy sea of human life, and how exhausted, bleeding, brokened winged, they drop one after another on the swelling waves. Tossed by the fierce winds, chased by the gale, they drift into eddies and disappear within the great vortex. p.8 This warning passage reminded me of the results of my lower consciousness and brought to mind another image that in the Christmas Carol of Scrooge. "Mankind is my business", was Marley's confession on his death bed. Marley went on to join the souls of those who lived "unconsciously" not aiding or helping the destitute. Arthur Patterson confesses, "Consciousness was my business", when he is confronted by how automatic and unthinking his responses are. I want my spirit to matter more than just becoming a part of a drifting vortex of unconsciousness. Thus my need for the Silence to remind me. Part of preserving consciousness has to do with allowing myself to experience pain. The Silence sees pain as a pedogogue, a teacher of the spiritual way. It states: Let thy Soul lend its ear to every cry of pain like the lotus bears its heart to drink the morning sun. Let not the fierce Sun dry one tear of pain before thyself hast wiped it from the sufferers eye. p. 13 This is not pain avoiding or world negating. I had somehow misunderstood the Silence upon first reading. I think that the work is not advocating senselessness but that enlightened consciousness is to replace illusion even in dealing with earthly things. This is much more along the line of the social justice themes I see running through some of the posting by say Jerry in the theos-l group. I think I am starting to understand even though I have't the theosophical language down yet. Under the Mercy, Arthur Patterson Winnipeg, MB Canada R3E 1Y5 1-204-774-5301 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 14:08:39 -0500 From: euser Subject: Discussion/reply to Jerry H-E, Jerry S., Astrea Responses to remarks made regarding my article on psychology/theosophy To Jerry H-E: Your plans for using my article in your study group sounds fine to me. I would like to add some suggestions for that: -it may be a useful exercise for students to apply/learn to recognize the workings of the seven juwels of wisdom on their own thinking,etc. Also they can be recognized in nature as a whole. You may want to include my first article on the seven jewels and/or G de P's exposition of these in his fundamentals of esoteric wisdom. One interesting example regarding this is when we try to replace negative thoughts by positive ones (by directing our mental perception to ideas of wholeness, connectedness, brotherhood, etc.). Everybody will experience a _cyclic_ comeback of these negative thoughts, which will diminish in strength if we persist in our efforts to attune to more spiritual layers in our own stream of consciousness. This _recognition_ will contribute to the understanding of how nature works in our psyche. Also, students of theosophy can learn to recognize these 7 dual aspects of thinking in their own mind, the dominating principle(s), as well as their motives (personal, impersonal) for doing things. BTW, these 7 dual aspects ARE the seven loka-tala twins of thinking as far as I understand them. Issues of reality and illusion (the identification with the world of phenomena vs. identification with spiritual factors immanent in this world) are also of great importance. Identification is the keyword here. Antropomorphic thinking is another related issue. The three guna's form another angle from which thinking and acting can be discussed. Controlling your thought-process vs. being slave of the passions makes a good topic too, especially in relation to questions of sympathy/antipathy, in short: the pairs of opposites, their 'mechanism', transcending them, i.e. using the polarized forces of nature (Shiva - the destroyer-renewer of structures). Forgive me for elaborating a little bit here. I think it may be useful for students. I am greatly indebted to a Dutch theosophist, D.J.P. Kok, from whose work - non-copyrighted, and only partially published (for the general public)- I greatly borrowed, although adding my own insights and order in this article. Now, to your remarks, I will try to discuss them: >Thus personality consciousness does not survive long after the > body.. I discovered a problem of nomenclature in G de P's work: In the fundamentals he gives the name 'Human ego' to the Bhutatman, while in his esoteric instructions he reserves the term Human ego for the personal ego, a ray from the human (personal) monad or _reincarnating_ ego as G de P calls it on p.86 [see also p. 54] of his 11th esoteric instruction. The Bhutatman is a _reimbodying_ ego. So, I followed G de P's esoteric instructions's instead of his fundamentals in attributing the term 'human' and hence 'reincarnating' to the personal ego/monad. The personal ego serves as a separate focus for the prana of atman, hence it's name: pranatman. I think that at second death this personal ego is withdrawn as a ray in the 'bosom of the human (personal) monad'. The human monad is on its turn withdrawn as a ray in the spiritual-intellectual monad, etc. All this is quite technical, but indicates somehow that the character of the personal ego is in some way preserved to manifest again in a new incarnation. The personal ego-soul is in principle sevenfold (14-fold)= loka's/tala's and it's character is formed by those principles/elements in its ego-soul which are most dominant. >issue of unconscious expression of thoughts.. That's why real sincerity of mind is needed, in order not to fool ourselves. Practice makes perfect so to speak. We have to try it. To ASTREA: I understand what you mean. That's why I personally added the duality of the seven aspects of thinking, indicating that even inspiration can be used in a very selfish way, also indicating that the divine principle is _also_ involved in the physical aspect thinking. Our body itself has a connection with the divine principle through the auric egg (cf. G de P - our body literally a divine temple ). So, you are right in saying that the divine principle is active on all levels, all be it in a different degree. There is in reality but One principle, as WQ Judge says, multiple-facetted in manifestation. Yet a separation of principles is possible, as we all know, be it in our sleep, be it at initiation, etc. This reminds me of the three upadhi's of Blavatsky in SD I. To get practical: let's not forget about the suffering in this world. Buddha's teachings point to the source of all suffering: ignorance about the real nature of man, coupled with thinking in terms of separateness. Theosophical societies have a duty to teach others about the causes of suffering and the solution of that. Individual theosophists have their daily duties added to this and should find forms/ways/methods to infuse their wisdom into organizations, individuals, etc. We are on the rising arc of evolution. This means that we have the net-force of nature behind us in this work. The key is understanding and harmonious development. This all will greatly contribute to a better world, if only practiced! TO JERRY S. continuous/discrete jumps;Tree of life; GV-model I will have to think it over. Nature itself points to discrete jumps (think of discrete spectra of chemical elements). In these discrete jumps however a laya-center may be involved, involving a reconfiguration of matter into another state! So, my guess is that matter-consciousness can be brought into quite another hierarchy or sub-hierarchy by being dissolved into its components, being recombined into new forms in this other hierarchy. What do you think? That's all for now. Nice discussion anyway! Martin. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 15:42:14 -0500 From: jrcecon@lewis.umt.edu Subject: RE: Silence Continued Slowly Greetings: Thought I'd add my $.02 to the Silence conversation... I had wondered, several years ago, about the stunningly different nature of the 3 different parts of the Voice, and had come to the following conclusions: 1. The text as a whole (of which HPB translated three fragments) is very likely like the Old Testament...that is, written, translated, added to, refined, re-translated etc. etc., written by many different people over the course of perhaps centuries (possibly *millenia* even). To presume that there will be any obvious philosophical consistancy of the sort found in a book written at one time by one author in sequential chapters is a mistake, and would be bound to be as confusing as if (for instance) a book called "The Voice of the Prophets" was produced containing only three sections.... Fragments from the Song of Songs, a piece of Genesis, and part of Ezekial. 2. To think in terms of thesis/antithesis/synthesis is an interesting approach, but here, perhaps, is another one: It is a purely western notion to consider knowledge independent of the *state of development of the knower*; eastern mysticism (if I can make such a huge, generalized statement), and the TS Masters in particular were continually, drawing lines betond which (for instance) Sinnett's questions would not be answered, and it seemed to at times be implied that giving even the greatest "secrets" on earth would be useless if the recipient had not reached the internal development necessary to understand the information. The conclusion I had reached about the differences in the 3 sections of the Voice was that HPB, in selecting the fragments, had delibrately chosen them so that people at different levels of inner understanding would get something of value from the book. The person (for instance) filled with the material world and day to day human life *first* needs to break free of its most powerful attractions before any meaningful inner work can be begun, and perhaps the first part of the Voice resonates most strongly with those...as it heavily emphasizes detachment. At a particular point, however, (a point I believe many Theosophists get stuck in) detachment becomes easy, but if it goes too far the person becomes extremely self-involved...thus the second fragment may be for those who most need to understand that while talking philosophy and breaking lower desires are wonderful...that world they've detached from *is* a field of service that must be re-entered...etc., etc. Just thoughts -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:33:32 -0500 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Various Comments This is by Eldon Tucker Between getting sick, looking for a new job, and having a new baby in the house, I've not been able to keep up with all the activity on 'theos-l' the past couple of weeks. I'd like to jump back in with a handful of reponses to various comments made. Jerry Hejka-Ekins: 1. When you say that private schools "empty the schools of everyone but the minorities and the underprivileged" you're making a good argument for the voucher system, where the public dollars that minorities are entitled to can be used to "vote" which schools are best. Privatization has often produced reduced costs and increased benefits to the public in other areas, why not also in education? Has the existence of private universities like Stanford or Harvard hurt public universities like UC Berkeley or UCLA? 2. I agree when you say that ethical decision making has more to do with gaining insight into our own actions and decisions, as well as those of others. But I would also say that the important insight is the clarity of the moment as the decisions are made, and not merely one of retrospect. 3. Your mention of the "return good for good, justice for evil" passage from the Mahatma Letters was good. The important thing with justice to remember is that it is what is right in the sense of the overall good, and not a pseudonym for personal vengeance. 4. Regarding focus groups and Pete Wilson, the idea of focus groups is not new. I learned about it as one of several empirical research methods when studying for my MBA in the early 1970's. The intent is to interview a small number of "typical" people in depth, as a group, to uncover information that you may not have thought of otherwise. When doing something like a questionnaire, you're limited to what questions you choose in advance, and there's not a lot of interaction with the people polled, even if you first do a trial questionnaire before the primary one. This technique is used in advertising, politics, and even, I'm sure, by defense lawyers. 5. When you speak of the current inactivity of Theosophists as compared to its past, I think we first need to define what is theosophical activity, and where and how it is being done. Is there anything special or different that Theosophists should be doing, or are they just supposed to be "mysteriously wise" people doing ordinary activities of the day, including education, social reform, business, healing, science, etc.? Martin Euser & Aki Korhonen: 1. I'm also interested in what you call sacred geometry. I'm involved in Point Loma Publications, and we publish all of Gordon Plummer's books on the subject. (TPH sold the remaining stock of "The Mathematics of the Cosmic Mind" to us.) Some of his books are illustrated with hand-drawings of the Lessor Maze, based on all the platonic solids being formed within the icosahedron. I'd like to nicely render and produce as postscript figures some illustrations of the Lessor Maze for future reprints. Last year, I posted to the 'theos-l' archives the definition of the Lessor Maze in IGES format, and it could be rotated and drawn with the suitable CAD program. Do either of you have time to look at it sometime? Paul Johnson: 1. Regarding meditation, the Zen Buddhist approach seems particularly good to me. You meditate with your eyes half-open. The world is included in the meditation. The higher faculties are awakened while you are still rooted in the world. There is no sense of "going somewhere else for treasures and taking them back here" but rather of "the descent of divinity". The emphasis is on a rootedness of outer and inner life, rather than a duality of "that place" and "this place". And I feel the result is a more solid foundation of spiritual consciousness in ones everyday life. 2. You mention the "chicken and egg" problem of enlightenment and loving deeds. Whenever there is a cyclic situation, where each part of the cycle depends on the other parts of the cycle, you cannot "break into" the cycle by starting it at any particular point. The cycle must be stepped into, as though through a laya- center, where it is simply engaged in its entirety. Because by definition you cannot be the "egg" if not the "chicken", and the "chicken" if not the "egg", you have to *already be, but not yet realize it.* If (a) you cannot be enlightened without loving deeds nor able to do loving deeds unless enlightened, and (b) you will attain that state, then (c) you must already have the state, but just not realize it. Arthur Patterson & Astrea: 1. Arthur mentions being sick of narcissism and Astrea of our disdain for physical work and armchair Theosophy. We come to an important, recurring question regarding Theosophy: What is it good for? What do we do as Theosophists to benefit the world? Does someone outside ourselves have a social agenda that we must follow or be branded apathetic, or do we each seek our own way to make a unique contribution to the world? Does a flower do good to simply grow in a meadow and look beautiful, or is it wrong for not doing something more? I would say that we come back to a question of ethics. The question would be are we doing what is right with our time and energy? To really benefit the world, we need to fully manifest our own unique contributions to life, and not be pawns in someone else's agenda. Jerry Schueler: 1. You mention that having a strong sense of ethics may lead to someone becoming judgmental. While I agree that the judgmental element is generally wrong, we may need to qualify it. There could be gratuitous judgments, and those that are a necessary part of conducting life. If you are a hiring manager, you may have to judge applicants based on honesty, intelligence, and capability; you certainly don't need to judge strangers on the street accordingly. A judgment is saying how that other person relates to oneself, to one's life, and not whom and what that person is in himself. 2. I would consider ethics as a form of consciousness, that starts off as monotone (unconscious), then with harsh, rigid rules (black-and-white), then with increasing refinement of shades of gray. The shades of gray come from the exercise of ethical awareness in situations, and not from passing judgment on others. Comparing ethical consciousness to thought, the monotone phase is having no idea on a subject, the black-and- white phase is having a rigid opinion, and the shades- of-gray is having subtle thoughts about a subject. We can freshly rethink our ideas anew with each situation just as we can our ethical rules. Our ethics need be no more rigid that our opinions. 3. I agree that there is many key ideas found in the subject of chaos that could add new symbolic richness to theosophical thought. There are a lot of pure, simple yet deep symbols, like the bifurcation curve, that enrich our simpler symbols like the circle, PI, the dot in the circle, etc. We need to remember, though, that we are still dealing with mathematics and mathematical symbolism, and not the living things themselves. A particular Monad, coming into being in a certain way, takes on attributes, subject to mathematical measurement and quantification. These attributes did not create that Monad, but are simply those that the Monad is utilizing in manifesting itself. Nonlinear systems and mathematics that accounts for feedback provides an excellent way to model certain aspects of life better that other mathematical tools at hand, but this modeling is descriptive and not causative. 4. I agree that although the planes of consciousness are continuous, there are discrete places on them to visit, the Globes, and that a "quantum jump" is necessary through a laya-center to go from one to the next. I wonder though about you speaking of "HPB's Gupta Vidya Model". My impression from earlier discussions was that the Gupta Vidya Model was yours, based upon HPB but taken further in your own way, according to your experiences and insights. (In a different way that I'd myself take the Globe-Chain Model.) Are you now saying that everything in the GV Model is strictly based upon HPB (and/or GDP), or does it include some of your own thought as well? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 19:29:20 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: To: Art P. Re; Silence continued slowly Thought you might like to hear some more theosophical poetry. The first 2 are from a little pamphlet called "The Science & Service of Blessing." by Dr. Roberto Assagioli, an Italian theosophist, psychiatrist. He was a pupil of Freud who started a school practicing psychosynthesis (instead of analysis): THE MANTRAM OF UNIFICATION The sons of men are one & I am one with them. I seek to love, not hate; I seek to serve & not exact due service; I seek to heal, not hurt. Let pain bring due reward of light & love. Let the soul control the outer form, And life and all events, And bring to life the love Which underlies the happenings of time. Let vision come & insight. Let the future stand revealed. Let inner union demonstrate & outer cleavage be gone. Let love prevail. Let all men love. BENEDICTION OF THE SOUL "Down from the mountain top I come, bringing the light of Life, the life of Light. Into the chalice of the form I pour that light which life confers, this life which light sustains. I see this golden light transform the darkness into day. I see the blue of life divine pour through the form, healing & soothing. Thus is the task performed. Thus is a man of earth transformed into a Son of God." The last one is by Harry ENVOI There is a light that casts no shadow; There is a Sound that no ears can hear, There is a vision no eyes can perceive, There is an energy that requires no production. May this Light shine upon you And illumine that which always is. May this Sound pervade you. And open you to that which Lies within you, and beyond you. May this arouse the vision Of that which always is And create within & around you The Bliss of Eternity, And thus the Energy can flow Which will always enliven you. May God bless Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 01:32:23 -0500 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: Re: Various Comments Hello Eldon, and the others. You wrote: > 1. I'm also interested in what you call sacred > geometry. I'm involved in Point Loma Publications, and > we publish all of Gordon Plummer's books on the subject. > (TPH sold the remaining stock of "The Mathematics of the > Cosmic Mind" to us.) Some of his books are illustrated > with hand-drawings of the Lessor Maze, based on all the > platonic solids being formed within the icosahedron. I'd > like to nicely render and produce as postscript figures > some illustrations of the Lessor Maze for future > reprints. Last year, I posted to the 'theos-l' archives > the definition of the Lessor Maze in IGES format, and it > could be rotated and drawn with the suitable CAD > program. Do either of you have time to look at it > sometime? I have plenty of experience of visualisation, animatioin and cad programs. I'll try if I can do something. At my sivilian service place, an art-design-school we have all the equipments and computers I can think of. About returning good for good, justice for bad, eye for eye, tooth fot tooth. Victor Hugo handels this aspect well in one of his novel, (I don't try the english name); there was a very hard boiled criminal, Vallantine?, after a long period of prison he was released. He went to see a bishop, the bishop was a kind man and helped Vallantine to start up a new life. Vallantine promised to be a good man. Little later policemen dragged Vallantine back to the bishop. It appeared that he has stolen precious silver items from the bishop. So, he paid the bishop's kindness by stealing from him. He was heading for prison. So much from his promises. The bishop said to the policemen; " Vallantine did not steal these things, I gave them to him". At this moment something snapped inside the criminal's mind and after that he really was good and dedicated the rest of his life to help the others. Peace. aki. Rovaniemi.Finland. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:36:58 -0500 From: John Mead Subject: vnet move (physical) on the 16th (tomorrow) Hi -- vnet is "physically" moving to a different building tomorrow (Nov. 16th) Hence the list may get flakey on Wednesday. as usual ... no known problems will occur. peace -- john mead jem@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 04:01:53 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: misc, third try Jerry S. JS> I think the literature is pretty clear, though, that most people who have to lie or cheat in business and who sit in church and hear morality preached to them, will eventually have a mental breakdown at some point. The psychological term is cognitive dissonance - we rationalize away impossible or immoral situations because of practical necessity. Those who have a conscience will only be able to do this temporarily. On the other hand, I've known people who managed to live their whole lives under the protection of carefully constructed cognitive dissonances. Seems that they managed to drive everyone else nuts. JHE>>Since consciousness is an infinitely graded plane, it is traditionally defined by establishing poles (lokas and talas). Since the division of anything that is infinitely graded must be arbitrary, the choosing of one possible division over another is done for the purpose of getting across one or another aspect of the teachings. Thus one division will always be as good as another, depending upon what you want to get across. JS>This comment is rather obscure, although I think I know what was intended. I know that the early theosophical writers implied that consciousness can somehow move across the cosmic planes in a continuous manner (nature never makes abrupt moves, I think G de P says somewhere. If consciousness can make motions that are continuous, so that we slowly gradually ease from one to the other (i.e., by ascending or descending subplanes) then divisions become relative, as Jerry implies. G.de P. was talking about the sub-planes in terms of spirit-matter. Subplanes change their nature (as everything is in a state of change) by becoming more physical or less physical. We can, from one point of view, describe this change as "ascending or descending subplanes." Consciousness, on the other hand is universal, therefore the concept of "motion" as we understand it is meaningless. Einstein calls attention to this when he showed that "etheric motion" is not a measurable concept since ether is universal. On cannot step outside of the universal to find a frame of reference from which motion could be measured. JS> However, I rather think that consciousness moves in jumps, much like quanta on the subatomic level. We know today that nature does, in fact, move in jumps and is as discontinuous as it is continuous (e.g., quantum mechanics). That applies in quantum mechanics, but we are still dealing with the physical. Remember, HPB and GdeP define light as being on the highest subplane of the physical, and the activity of electrons making quantum leaps from shell to shell is part of the phenomena of the emission of light. JS> Experience also tells us that our consciousness moves from plane to plane in jumps. This is further substantiated by looking a HPB's Gupta Vidya Model, in which all vertical paths between Globes are "laya centers" which HPB clearly points out are discontinuous leaps rather than paths. In fact, it is just in this area where I have found the most discrepancy between her GV Model and the Qabalistic Tree of Life where the Sephiroth are all interconnected by 22 pathways that can be explored by consciousness - thus the Tree is relatively continuous while the GV Model (using laya centers, which HPB says is the *only* way to cross through the planes) is not. Anyone have some ideas on this? I haven't found this implied in HPB. the gradations of consciousness from one sub-sub plane to another is continuous, so that the exact distinction between one sub-sub plane to another is arbitrary. As for laya centers being the portals of "discontinuous leaps rather than paths", we need to come to an understanding of what we mean by "laya center." "Laya center" like "karma" is thought of as a noun, when a verb would do better. Like "karma," "laya center" is more of a process than a "thing" which something "moves through." Take an ice cube and throw it into a sauce pan and put a fire under it. In good time, the ice cube will "move through" two laya centers as it changes from a solid to a liquid to a gas. If you want to call the change of an H2O molecule from a solid to liquid to a gas "discontinuous leaps" comparable to the leaps of electrons from shell to shell, then that is fine with me, but we are back to physical phenomena, and cannot apply to the non-physical. It could apply to the theoretical tachyon as "moving through a laya center" as it slows to the speed of light. But this is getting into speculating upon speculations. JS>In any case, it seems to me that consciousness jumps into the lokas and talas (which I believe correspond to the Globes of the GV Model) rather than eases into them through some kind of pathway. Whatever is met by "correspondence." Actually everything corresponds to everything is one manner or another. Lokas and talas correspond to globes, but so do colors, planets, metals, sounds etc. The trick is to identify the exact nature of the correspondence. HPB defines lokas and talas as "poles" or in other words, extremes between arbitrarily chosen levels of consciousness. It is like measuring out time from duration. Another statement HPB makes is that we are never in exactly the same state of consciousness in any two instances. Maybe a better analogy to consciousness than quantum mechanics might be the old stream analogy--you can't step into the same stream twice. As far as the laya portals and the "paths" go, perhaps they are metaphors for the same thing after all. Liesel, LD> I still wish we could think up some ways to counteract unethical business practices. I'm not working anymore. I can't lose my income. I've done a few small things in my time. One of them is trying to practice our belief in universal brotherhood. What bothers me is that this warps our whole way of life, almost all over the world. That means that it has an "unwholesome" influence on the world's Karma. Yes. We have to the end of the century to get our act together says HPB if I understand her right. Corporate corruption is world wide and American Corporations became the role models for the creation of much of it. The sticky wicket is that there is a payoff in supporting the corruption--E.g. a job with cost of living raises if you keep your mouth shut and play the game. When wage earning is the only way one knows how to survive, this becomes a strong incentive to deny or minimize what is going on. The values that drive capitalism are selfishness and greed. On the other hand, capitalism has significantly raised the quality of living for most of us, and for others, there is the hope that it might. It is hard to turn against a system that has done so well for us. Arthur Patterson, Interesting how different interpretations can come from any one quote. Interpretations are very influenced by the context by which we view them. My interpretation for this warning is that the emotional/physical nature is still very much alive, and we must learn to distinguish this from our spiritual nature. This is my favorite sloka. Service to humanity--an altruistic life is a duty. It may be the karma of our neighbor to fall into the gutter, but it is our karma to pull him out. Martin Euser, ME> Your plans for using my article in your study group sounds fine to me. Thank you. ME> -it may be a useful exercise for students to apply/learn to recognize the workings of the seven juwels of wisdom on their own thinking,etc. Also they can be recognized in nature as a whole. You may want to include my first article on the seven jewels and/or G de P's exposition of these in his fundamentals of esoteric wisdom. We have been working on the seven principles for some time now. My reason for wanting to introduce it is so that they would have the opportunity to read the views of another student (you) who raised some issues that this group really hasn't given sufficient thought to yet. We have covered the seven principles from a psychological point of view some time ago, but your essay represents a different approach than the one that we took. So I want them to see another view point and discuss it in light of their own. Thank you for reminding me of the seven jewels. Please e- mail me a copy of your article as we may be able to use that too. ME> Forgive me for elaborating a little bit here. I think it may be useful for students. I am greatly indebted to a Dutch theosophist, D.J.P. Kok, from whose work - non-copyrighted, and only partially published (for the general public)- I greatly borrowed, although adding my own insights and order in this article. Are you a member of the late D.J.P. Kok's group? I met Hermann Vermuden when he was in California a few years ago, and was very impressed. ME> I discovered a problem of nomenclature in G de P's work: In the fundamentals he gives the name 'Human ego' to the Bhutatman, while in his esoteric instructions he reserves the term Human ego for the personal ego, a ray from the human (personal) monad or reincarnating_ ego as G de P calls it on p.86 [see also p. 54] of his 11th esoteric instruction. The Bhutatman is a _reimbodying_ ego. So, I followed G de P's esoteric instructions's instead of his fundamentals in attributing the term 'human' and hence 'reincarnating' to the personal ego/monad. There is a parallel problem in nomenclature in HPB's writings. With HPB, there are historical reasons for this. I wonder what was behind GdeP's problem. Any ideas? JHE>>...issue of unconscious expression of thoughts.. ME> That's why real sincerity of mind is needed, in order not to fool ourselves. Practice makes perfect so to speak. We have to try it. The problem is that our friend on the Griffith Park lawn may very well have believed in his own sincerity. It just goes to show HPB's warning about taking pledges. Any spiritual effort we make also confronts us with new traps we had unknowingly set for ourselves. Each step has its own mini-dweller-on-the-threshold of that step to challenge us. But you are right--we have to try it. Eldon Tucker, ET> 1. When you say that private schools "empty the schools of everyone but the minorities and the underprivileged" you're making a good argument for the voucher system, where the public dollars that minorities are entitled to can be used to "vote" which schools are best. Privatization has often produced reduced costs and increased benefits to the public in other areas, why not also in education? Has the existence of private universities like Stanford or Harvard hurt public universities like UC Berkeley or UCLA? O.K. Let's say that everyone gets enough money from the Government to pay for a private education. Now we can close down all of the public schools and use the land for something else. But now the private schools (unless they practice segregation), in order to accommodate everyone is back to having a mixed population of students again--which brings us exactly back to the problem we started with. ET> 2. I agree when you say that ethical decision making has more to do with gaining insight into our own actions and decisions, as well as those of others. But I would also say that the important insight is the clarity of the moment as the decisions are made, and not merely one of retrospect. Hopefully, that is what the practice of ethical decision making will lead to. ET> 3. Your mention of the "return good for good, justice for evil" passage from the Mahatma Letters was good. The important thing with justice to remember is that it is what is right in the sense of the overall good, and not a pseudonym for personal vengeance. Well said. ET> 4. Regarding focus groups and Pete Wilson, the idea of focus groups is not new. I learned about it as one of several empirical research methods when studying for my MBA in the early 1970's. The intent is to interview a small number of "typical" people in depth, as a group, to uncover information that you may not have thought of otherwise. When doing something like a questionnaire, you're limited to what questions you choose in advance, and there's not a lot of interaction with the people polled, even if you first do a trial questionnaire before the primary one. This technique is used in advertising, politics, and even, I'm sure, by defense lawyers. I realize that it isn't a new technique, but this use of it, I believe, is new. But more importantly, it is a subversion of its power for personal ends. ET> 5. When you speak of the current inactivity of Theosophists as compared to its past, I think we first need to define what is theosophical activity, and where and how it is being done. Is there anything special or different that Theosophists should be doing, or are they just supposed to be "mysteriously wise" people doing ordinary activities of the day, including education, social reform, business, healing, science, etc.? Any of the above (wisely or less wisely done) will do. Anything but sitting in an easy chair chanting OM with the "mysteriously wise" belief that they are making things better. There are a lot of theosophists who think this way. I just met a couple more recently. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:16:49 -0500 From: Arthur Patterson Subject: Theosophy To Theos-l LD> I still wish we could think up some ways to counteract unethical business practices. I'm not working anymore. I can't lose my income. I've done a few small things in my time. One of them is trying to practice our belief in universal brotherhood. What bothers me is that this warps our whole way of life, almost all over the world. That means that it has an "unwholesome" influence on the world's Karma. Jerry> Yes. We have to the end of the century to get our act together says HPB if I understand her right. Corporate corruption is world wide and American Corporations became the role models for the creation of much of it. The sticky wicket is that there is a payoff in supporting the corruption--E.g. a job with cost of living raises if you keep your mouth shut and play the game. When wage earning is the only way one knows how to survive, this becomes a strong incentive to deny or minimize what is going on. Art 1> Boy did I ever learn how deceptive that is. When I was in the ministry I tried to be pretty straight with what I believed. I did this, I thought, in front of my colleagues. When I left the ministry and no longer relied on the job to either save or pay me I found that I was more clanestine than I had imagined myself to be. For instance, I say things to people now that I just would never say when I had the mantel and the morgage of my last job. I say things in public about the literary criticism of the holy books that I would never have done when I was considered a respresentitive. I notice that people do this in all jobs. I found that religion and university settings seem worse than even business because there is such a feigning of liberal values but the same old power distributions continue and the persona gesturing is revolting when you have step out of it all. I felt ashamed in many ways of what I have become while functioning as a representitive person rather than as a soul. Arthur Patterson, Jerry> Interesting how different interpretations can come from any one quote. Interpretations are very influenced by the context by which we view them. My interpretation for this warning is that the emotional/physical nature is still very much alive, and we must learn to distinguish this from our spiritual nature. Arthur 2> I see what you mean HPB is making a distinction between the sensing sort of thought that is rooted in the instincts and a more spiritual thought process. What I heard was that even our ideational musing can be characterized by this instinctuality and even feign as spiritual thoughts. I think that it takes something, I am not entirely sure what yet, to differentiate between thoughts that are rooted in instinctuality, with its lower motivations, and thoughts that are inspired by higher centers of consciousness. I am getting the idea that it takes a great deal of training to learn the difference. Any ideas on where that training begins? Jerry>This is my favorite sloka. Service to humanity--an altruistic life is a duty. It may be the karma of our neighbor to fall into the gutter, but it is our karma to pull him out. Art 4> You are avoiding the passivity of the average Eastern approach. I appreciate that perspective. People misuse Karma concepts to hold to the status quo. I see this in a lot of New Age settings. I really think it can be used as a form of nazism since it keeps people in their place through ideology and yet appears deceptively spiritual while doing so. Just a personal note. I am getting a new Mac today and it may be a while till I figure out how to do some basics, I may not get back as swiftly as I like to. Hoping not to get caught in the net of the material world but I am certainly looking forward to the new potentials. PS. Does any one have an e-mail address for Quest Magazine of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton? Under the Mercy, Arthur Patterson Winnipeg, MB Canada R3E 1Y5 1-204-774-5301 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:43:35 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Theosophy I'm not sure why Arthur Patterson's post this morning immediately reminded me of something I read on the wellnesslist earlier in the morning. But it did and I am passing it along. "I did not arrive at my understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe through my rational mind." --Albert Einstein. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 20:46:27 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Theosophy Yesterday I wrote > I'm not sure why Arthur Patterson's post this morning immediately > reminded me of something I read on the wellnesslist earlier in the > morning. But it did and I am passing it along. > > "I did not arrive at my understanding of the fundamental laws of the > universe through my rational mind." > --Albert Einstein. Twenty-four hours later I think I know why I was reminded. One's leaps to a higher or more sophisticated awareness can be misused by others. What one discovers, if shared, can be misused; more to the point, perhaps, the more sophisticated, knowing "you" can be co-opted by a corrupt system and you can find yourself (probably on reflection) having used new, higher insights to do things that you shouldn't have done or should have done differently. William Allen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:47:12 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: various follow ups TO: ART P. You wanted to contact "Quest" magazine. The Theosophical Society in Wheaton has a general e - mail adress theos@netcom.com since the address is used by several people, I'd put on it Att: Bill Metzger (he's the editor) or Att: Quest Magazine (say "Magazine", because there are also Quest books, & that's in a different building). The Olcott library has 2 addresses of their own, but I haven't been able to get through. Dunno where the mistake is, but for now, if you'd like to get in touch with them please just use the above address. TO: WILLIAM ALLEN Re: your Einstein quote. I always knew my "Landsmann" was a genius! I've got printouts sitting on my desk from way back 11-12, on which I wanted to put in my 2cents worth. I also listened to John Algeo's tape on ethics. I also telephone interviewed my Bob about his opinion re transnational corporations which Jerry H-E wanted to know. I'm not going to get to all of it, before Lorna comes to pick me up to go to an antique show but here's some of it. TO: JERRY S. I worked for the State of NJ for 23 years. I also "observed some waste of taxpayer's money here & there, but nothing criminal (mostly stupidity)." The most stupid things came down the pike during Reganomics. Like they decided they needed more statistics about our activities, so it ended up that the activities became 80% writing up reports, and 20% trying to find jobs for people who came into the office looking for them. Another one, they decided that everyone who was collecting Unemployment Insurance had to register with us. That included people on temporary layoff, and others who were interested in collecting, and not in the least in getting jobs. So we spent a lot of our time registering these people in groups, and looking at their slips that said where they'd gone job hunting (faked, if the wanted to fake it) rather than trying to help find another job for the ones who were really looking. I wasn't ever fired for blowing the whistle. They couldn't, I had tenure, but I worked under 1 manager who was never there & let things pile up. So 1 day I upset the whole apple cart by telling a clerk to pull out all the job orders that were over 90 days old (and either filled, or not valid anymore at that stage) It created a big mess, & after that, I was shunted to insignificant jobs, until _I_ got a transfer. I also got fired once from anotherjob in my younger years for asking for a raise. One thing I could do in my State job at times was to cut throught the red tape someone was tangled in. After a while Haitians came to me, because I spoke French. I helped them smooth over red tape. My girl friend did the same for the Spanish speakers. For a while I had to pass on all the JTPA applicants in my office. I remember one teen-ager who applied for training. She was young enough to require the OK signature of a parent or guardian. Well, this kid had had the spunk to move out of her home in another State because her mother was high all the time. Where the father was no one knew. Even if she could find her mother, the mother wasn't about to sign any OK's for her. She was staying with a friend, & when she brought in the friend's singature, I just accepted it. I felt perfectly justified in bending the rules a little with her. Wish I could tell you whether she made it, but I never saw her again. Anyway, I did what I could. Further on you say "If you keep your mouth shut & play the game". A question occured to me. When do you keep your mouth shut because you need the money for yourself & your loved ones, and when do you decide that enough is enough? Re: Cognitive dissonance I don't know whether liars & cheats always have a nervous breakdown, if they "lie & cheat in business & then sit in church & hear morality preached to them". It creates some sort of unfavorable Karma which'll hit them in one life or another. I can see that someone can become a mental cripple of (s)he lies & cheats all the time. TO: AKI KORHONEN I like your Victor Hugo story. I've been taught to try to say or think something positive about everyone. I think if you're kind to a hardened criminal he's at first not going to believe you, just the way the man in Victor Hugo's story didn't. You just don't think anyone is ever going to be kind to you. The bishop kept on being kind & the criminal finally understood that here was one person who wasn't going to beat up on him. TO: JERRY H-E You say "The values of capitalism are selfishness & greed". but it "has significantly raised our standard of living ... It is hard to turn against a system that has done so well." It's done well in some ways, but not in others ... like pollution, & maiming people physically. I notice a trend among the larger corporations to be more mindful of the good of the community. A large local supermarket chain, which, just incidentally, doesn't sell organic food, on the other hand gives some of its employees a year's leave with pay, so that they can be of community service. I went to hear Haydn's "Creation" last night. The Syracuse Symphony needs financial support. The concert wasn't very well attended, even though the singers were all super. But, from the program I noted that local corporations are contributing money to the Syracuse Symphony. Incidentally, the Syracuse Symphony is being imaginative. In the Spring we're taking my friend Carol's 2 grandsons to "Murder on The Downbeat". We decided on that rather than a trial of the wolf from "Peter & The Wolf". I'm getting off my subject. That book on transnational corporations suggested that all kinds of community groups get involved in putting the brakes on untoward practices, like the masons or the lyons or the churches. That sounds like a good idea to me, because if you're a trouble maker who joins the union, you get the same as the whistle blowers get. That finishes comments on what you all wrote, & that's all I have time for now. On to the antique show. I'll tell you about bob & John Algeo this evening or tomorrow morning. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:24:36 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: misc Martin Euser, Received part 1 of first article. Thanks. We are into a discussion on neo-theosophy right now, so we'll have to wait until that runs out before your material become relevant for discussion again. ME> About the psychological division I made: I regard these as an example of sub-(sub)- states of consciousness (loka's-tala's) expressing themselves in kama-manas. What do you think? Yes--I would express it as states of consciousness corresponding to the sub-sub principles of kama manas and finding expression to that principle. ME> I discovered in GdP's instruction #6 pp 60/61 an interesting note about this kind of things. Also,GdP refined the term Human ego into: Higher human ego. The Lower human ego is the personal ego. (instr. 9, p.20). Yes, GdeP is also giving further correspondences of the Loka-Talas to the seven principles and twelve globes, but this gets into other teachings that are off the subject of psychology as we know it. HPB also started out being unclear concerning human, spiritual and divine egos because she had to accommodate Sinnett's terminology that tended to obscure teachings concerning Buddhi, which Sinnett didn't know about. I like GdeP's composite diagram and feel that it can be justified in HPB's writings. Arthur Patterson, AP> I found that religion and university settings seem worse than even business because there is such a feigning of liberal values but the same old power distributions continue and the persona gesturing is revolting when you have step out of it all. It is very interesting that the University settings seem worse than businesses where you live. In American Universities, we have a tenure system that was devised specifically to protect the teachers from having to conform to any intellectual or political pressure. Here in Central California, we live in a very conservative and fundamentalist area that is not typical of what people think of as California. One university professor came here from Idaho "To escape the Bible belt" he said, but "found the buckle." Because of the pressure from the fundamentalists, the lower educational system, which responds to the demands of the parents, is constantly under siege. When I did my observations at the local Jr. and High Schools, I found that the teaching of Greek Mythology (a standard 8th grade lesson in California schools) was banned here by the Fundamentalist Right because they argued that it "is a threat to our culture." Our University however, is not obligated to listen to local agendas (though there are missionaries on the campus every day seeking converts), the Professors exhibit a wide range of attitudes and political leanings. In our Political Science department we have an avowed Marxist who teaches Marxist theory. As a tenured teacher, he is free to express his leanings with no fear of loosing his position. When the State first decided to put the University here, there was considerable political opposition to it, as the residents believed that its influence would destroy their way of life. It turns out that they were right. Over the years, the University has brought public speakers to this town that never would have been allowed here otherwise. Ralph Nadir has spoken here twice; Timothy Leary three times, Helen Caldicot once; dignitaries from South America and Bulgaria have come through here and my wife and I have taken part is hosting many of these people. The drama department puts on plays, the art department exhibits, and the music department concerts. Ten years ago, this town was in the Guinness Book of World Records for having the most churches per capita than any other town in the country. After twenty years of being barraged with university cultural experiences (and a huge influx of Indian and S.E. Asian populations), this is no longer true. Through education and exposure to culture, this town is now almost in step with the twentieth century. We even have a Coffee house. I'm waiting for this town to experience the sixties for the first time. This all reminds me of a statement HPB made concerning the Theosophical Movement. It only flourishes during those rare periods of intellectual freedom. She cited classical Athens as one of those rare periods. We are in one of those rare cycles now, but history teaches us that these periods don't last. I hope we can learn to value and maintain it. AP> You are avoiding the passivity of the average Eastern approach. I appreciate that perspective. People misuse Karma concepts to hold to the status quo. I see this in a lot of New Age settings. I really think it can be used as a form of nazism since it keeps people in their place through ideology and yet appears deceptively spiritual while doing so. Yes. Activism was one of the clearest messages in the early Theosophical Movement. The Organizations have long ago forgotten how to do it, and define themselves as "educational" now, but there was a time when things were quite different. Besant was also active, but she crossed that very thin line into political partisanship, thus reaping a lot of criticism to the detriment of the Theosophical Society. Since her time, nothing is done anymore by the Organizations, but there are still individuals. LD> You say "The values of capitalism are selfishness & greed". but it "has significantly raised our standard of living ... It is hard to turn against a system that has done so well." It's done well in some ways, but not in others ... like pollution, & maiming people physically. Add to that, the system creates poverty and steadily concentrates the wealth into the hands of the few while poverty becomes more widespread.... But most people still have faith in the system. As Arthur pointed out earlier, people believe that they can also become part of the wealthy few in the system, therefore they support it. HPB wrote that wealth and position is really a result of karma and karmic connections, but people don't see it that way. LD> I notice a trend among the larger corporations to be more mindful of the good of the community. A large local supermarket chain, which, just incidentally, doesn't sell organic food, on the other hand gives some of its employees a year's leave with pay, so that they can be of community service. This started in the late sixties--IBM was one of the pioneers, but the trend fizzled out. I'm glad to hear that some corporations are still doing it. LD> That book on transnational corporations suggested that all kinds of community groups get involved in putting the brakes on untoward practices, like the masons or the lyons or the churches. That sounds like a good idea to me, because if you're a trouble maker who joins the union, you get the same as the whistle blowers get. That's one philosophy. The Masons, Lyons, Toastmasters etc. are totally dedicated to service and have done a lot in the area of human services, but there is a limit. I don't believe that the Masons, Lyons etc. have the collective power to seriously challenge corporate practices anymore. During the depression there was a political movement in California led by the novelist, Upton Sinclair, that would have overthrown the capitalistic system for a type of socialistic one based upon production for need rather than profit. In California, whole factories had been shut down by the depression, and thousands of tons of food that could have been used to feed the starving was destroyed because the bottom had fallen out of the agricultural market. Under Sinclair's production for need system, this would never have happened. Needless to say, Sinclair's movement was immensely popular and he had a huge following both in and out of California. Eventually he ran for Governor of the State, so that he could implement his system. Though he had the overwhelming majority of the population in support of him, the movie studios and the Corporations were threatened by his philosophy and began a smear campaign against his character. The Los Angeles Times had a daily column where they quoted the fictional characters in Sinclair's novels, and attributed the quotations to Sinclair himself. Louis B. Meyer created Movietone newsreels that selected and interviewed ignorant and uninformed people who supported Sinclair, contrasting them with interviews with more educated people who supported his opposition. Franklin D. Roosevelt, who was already under siege by corporate interests for creating work programs for the unemployed (CCC, WPA etc.), could not risk supporting Sinclair either. Finally, the collective resources of the corporations and the movie industry succeeded in defeating the movement. This was the last serious threat to corporate power that I'm aware of. The corporations are more powerful today, political apathy much higher, and psychological manipulation of the masses is much more sophisticated, so I don't see any threat to the status quo in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, Ralph Nadir, has shown that cooperative groups, through the exertion of political pressure, can still bring about smaller changes in the system. But the system itself is so powerful, that it is beyond any serious confrontation. I don't even think our own Government is strong enough to defeat it anymore. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:25:26 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: my Bob, & John ALgeo's lecture Back from the antique show. Some of it was _real_ antiques. We admired it, then sat & watched people, then walked & looked some more, then sat & watched again. In the middle of it all we took an ice cream break. We had a great time, we 2 older ladies. OK first Bob on multi-national corporations. I hope I can give you a good picture. I took notes over the phone, and he talked very fast. To give some weight to what he thinks & says, he has an MBA, and his job involves working with the international trade, but he's not working for a large corporation. He said that the big corporations are not at fault for what's happening. Their overseas labor standards may not be like ours, but they are reasonably good for the country in which they operate. Their factories are reasonably safe. They deal with labor unions, and they pay the high end of the prevailing wage. (LFD - A girl posed a good question from the audience of a C-Span forum recently. She asked how we can compensate between the American usual wages, and the much lower ones which are considered high in 3rd world countries. If we pay little, it affects our American workers, if we pay the 3rd world people too much more than they're used to, it might throw their economy out of kilter) Bob also said that the multi natinal corporations do training, & that they bring in technicians and marketing experts to teach the people in the 3rd world how to run their own factories. But then, you get the little sweat shops. These are subcontractors, very often operating in free trade zones where there are few restrictions. They are local imitations of the large corporations. They have inferior working conditions, they work people real hard & under poor conditions, because they're trying to keep their costs down to keep competitive. They may be providing parts to the large corporations. We talked about that the various governments should create rules to protect their workers. Bob's reply was that, just for instance, there are 500 million unemployed Chinese, for whom working in a 3cent an hour sweat shop beats not working at all, and that if 1 Chinese drops dead from overwork, there's always another ready & willing to take his place. What can the government do given this desperate situation. How should that be handled? Does anyone have any ideas? If you get development in the 3rd world, he said, it feeds on itself. With more money coming in, there's more demand for goods, & also for better working standards. We went through the same process in the West, he told me. They burn rain forests, because they want to become modernized. If you tell them, please "no", they won't listen. The 3rd world says "no" to our labor standards. Wages keep on getting to be a smaller & smaller part of the costs of manufacturing If it were true that factories are all fleeing to low cost labor centers, there wouldn't be any more factories in the US. But the proportion of manufacturing to the GNP is level. There are less people employed in manufacturing, as there are less employed in farming, but the production is up. End of Bob's telephone interview. John Algeo's talk was called "A Theosophical View of War & Violence" Most of what I took down were the questions, and not so much his comments. The questions were to be answered with one of the 2 choices he gave his audience. I think the questions are still a propos, except that he didn't make up a puzzler involving crack cocaine. Well maybe someone will feel like joining in, & making up a good story about that. John said at the end that these questions didn't really have very satisfactory answers, but stuck in your craw. He began the talk with asking his audience whether if you were trying to practicwe Ahimsa the response to violence was doing nothing. Then he presented his "hypothetical but not impossible" cases. Everyone in the audience was given a stubby pencil & a sheet of paper with 10 sets of A and B, They were to respond that they would do either A nor B (no other choices were allowed). The first one with the hold up man standing in front of a manhole I already mentioned. Your choices were A.)do you push him into the manhole in back of him, or B>) do you hand over your wallet? 2.) You're a policeman walking a beat in a busy downtown area at midday. A chimpanzee has escaped from a pet shop. The excited chimp has already bitten several people. "What do you do?" Do you A.) phone the animal control, & wait for them to come with tranquilizer darts, while the chimp bites some more people? or B.) Do you pull out your gun & shoot the chimp ? (this was an actual situation in Atlanta) 3.) You're a physician to a young pregnant woman. She's in her 5th month. Earlier you prescribed a new drug and you've now discovered that the drug has hitherto unkown side effect. The drug may have damaged the foetus; it may be malformed. She wants an abortion. "What do you do?" A.) perform the abortion? or B.) refuse to perform the abortion? 4.) You're the physician of a young woman in her 20ies, in good health. She's in her 5th month, & unmarried. She requests an abortion. Shes's sexually active, & uses birthcontrol only sporadically, has had other abortions. What do you do? A.) Perform the abortion or B.) refuse to perform the abortion. 5.) You're driving in very heavy traffic. You've stopped at a red light at an intersection. There's a long line of cars behind you. From the rear, 1 car drives forward on the shoulder to your right, & pulls up alongside of you. The driver clearly intends to pass you by when the light turns. "What do you do?" Do you A.) Let him cut in front of you. or do you B.) Gun your car & go forward to pevent him from cutting in? 6.) You're the President of the United States. The island of Guam has been attacked & captured by Indonesia, which now claims a right to the island on historical grounds. The people of Guam overwhelmingly want to remain an American Protectorate. Indonesia is on the island in miltasry control. It has rejected any discussion about the sovereignty of the island, but will only discuss how to evacuate any islanders who want to leave. "What do you do?" Do you A.) prepare to evacuate the inhabitants from the island of Guam? or B.) Do you alert the Navy for an invasion? 7.) You're the director of the FBI (This scenario appeared in a magazine at the time). A terrorist has hidden an atomic bomb somewhere on the island of Manhattan, set to detonate in a few days. He demands several million Dollars, & the release of some of his buddies with safe passage to Lybia. The FBI has the man in custody, but has no leads as to the whereabouts of the bomb. 1 of your subordinates suggest that the only way to go is to subject the captive terrorist to torture. "What do you do?" do you A.) Wait, hoping the terrorist will have a change of heart? or do you B.) Tell your subordinate to try torture. 8.) You're the mother of a newborn child, which has been kidnapped by terrorists. The baby is being held hostage for the release of some terrorists from jail. The leader of the group has been caught , but refuses to reveal the whereabouts of the baby. The FBI says they haven't a clue as to where the baby is, but are considering torture to find out where the kindnapers are hiding it. "What do you do?" Do you A.) ask them not to use physical violence on the kidnapers, or B.) say you hope they'll do whatvever is necessary to get your baby back. 9.) You're a member of a TS study center. A new person has applied for membership. This person is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, & also of a political party organized along Nazi lines, & affiliated with the Klan. He says he intends to continue his membership in the Klan and in the neo Nazi party, but that he's also in sympathy with the 3 objects of the Society, & he sees no conflict between these memberships. You are asked to vote on his admission. "What do you do?" Do you A.) vote to admit him? or B.) vote to deny him admission? 10.) You'e a member of a jury that must sentence a convicted murderer. This is his 5th conviction for murder. Twice he killed during an armed robbery, once he was a hired killer, once he killed a fellow inmate in prison. This time, he killed a kidnap victim. "What do you do?" do you A.) vote for life imprisonment with a chance of parole in 10 years, or do you B.) vote for the death penalty? That's the end of the questions. He said that in real life the answers would be multiple choice. I like his ending so, I'd like to share it with you. The golden rule says deal with others as you would have them deal with you. This is sometimes turned around into the silver rule - Don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you. But then, there's also the brass rule "Do onto others, before they do to you." The Golden rule is exoteric. The esoteric rule is - there are no others, what you seem to be doing to others, you're doing to yourself. All beings desire their own well being. Isn't it good? Signing off now Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 19:23:33 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Theosophy Head and Heart Arthur Patterson wrote: > Thanks alot for sharing your insights on what I spoke of with the > group. In reading both notes I realized wisdom there but I still > needed a bit of clarification. While I very much appreciate what > can be done with rational disciplined thinking I know that like > any abtraction it can be used or misused. The devotion of the > heart is the best corrective. William Wrote: > One leaps to a higher or more sophisticated awareness can be > misused by others. What one discovers, if shared, can be > misused; more to the point, perhaps, the more sophisticated, > knowing "you" can be co-opted by a corrupt system and you can > find yourself (probably on reflection) having used new, higher > insights to do things that you shouldn't have done or should have > done differently. Arthur Replies: > I understand how others can misuse or misread a leap in an > individuals consciousness. What intrigues me is your helpful > reminder of the lower part of the self to deceive itself. What > part of my original post was this referring to ? I am interested > in your insights. Arthur, I'm not sure I can point to exactly what in your message last week prompted my reply; I suspect that it was the comment(s) on the university system. I am deeply depressed by what I see happening to the system. In particular I am worried about the effect of "outcomes assessment" on education. The movement is everywhere in public education and I suspect that within five years or so I will be teaching tests, i.e., I will be under the same pressure as everyone else to be certain that our students score as well as or higher than students at other institutions (no matter what the state government promises, one can be certain that these comparative scores will be used to drive funding--at least partially). These tests will be depressingly quantifiable and they'll not test what I hope students are getting from my classes. I've reached a point in my teaching career in which I try to sense where a particular class "wants" to go and then I try to facilitate the going. My subject is art history and art appreciation, subjects that can "turn" students on--but only if they are not rote memorization classes. My own guilt? I'm on committees looking at how we are going to implement the new state mandates. I'll contribute. I'll not like the committee recommendation. I'll not resign. I'll be co-opted. Does that make sense? William From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 19:24:33 -0500 From: paul@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) Subject: Re: misc jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) writes: > Ralph Nadir has spoken here twice... I'm sorry, but that typo is so beautiful it has to be shared... :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 21:21:57 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: re: "My Bob and John Algeo" Liesel, I enjoyed your post. Below are my answers to Bob's points, and an observation concerning John Algeo's talk. LD> To give some weight to what he [Bob] thinks & says, he has an MBA, and his job involves working with the international trade, but he's not working for a large corporation. Having an MBA gives Bob some authority concerning what is and is not done in business, but does not give him any special qualifications to pass moral judgement upon them. Ethics is not normally part of the training that one receives to become an MBA. If Bob had taken a course in ethical decision making, or in corporate corruption etc., then he is a very rare exception to the tens of thousands of MBA's out there. The fact that he is working in his field indicates that he is not free to take too radical a position on these issues lest he loose his position. LD> He said that the big corporations are not at fault for what's happening. Their overseas labor standards may not be like ours, but they are reasonably good for the country in which they operate. Their factories are reasonably safe. They deal with labor unions, and they pay the high end of the prevailing wage. Fault is a big word. Certainly American corporations did not create the low wages and the (relative to ours) poor working conditions in third world countries. They did not prevent anti pollution laws to be written in those countries. So from this standpoint, corporations are not at fault. The corporations are just following the "American way" by taking advantage of the situation in order to utilize cheap (to our standards) labor, and to operate in freedom from safety and pollution laws that would have bound them here. LD> (LFD - A girl posed a good question from the audience of a C-Span forum recently. She asked how we can compensate between the American usual wages, and the much lower ones which are considered high in 3rd world countries. If we pay little, it affects our American workers, if we pay the 3rd world people too much more than they're used to, it might throw their economy out of kilter) This is a Red herring here. The salaries aren't the issue. A dollar a day may be a lot of money in a third world country. A domestic issue however, is the export of jobs to third world countries where the wages are cheaper. This, of course means less jobs here. But this is a very complex issue concerning our status in world competition. We are no longer a manufacturing economy, but a service one. There are plenty of jobs available in this country. Every town has a MacDonalds where you can serve hamburgers for minimum wages. Average turnover for these jobs is less than six months, by the way. However, the number of minimum wage jobs are growing, while the high paying union manufacturing jobs, and the middle management jobs are disappearing. LD> But then, you get the little sweat shops. These are subcontractors, very often operating in free trade zones where there are few restrictions. They are local imitations of the large corporations. They have inferior working conditions, they work people real hard & under poor conditions, because they're trying to keep their costs down to keep competitive. They may be providing parts to the large corporations. Yes, and by there practices, they can "provide parts" to the corporations for less money, thus helping the profit margin of that corporation. By the way, I remember walking through the garment district in Los Angeles where people work under the same kind of sweat shop conditions. The workers are all Mexican immigrants--most of them undocumented, and few speak English. They work for less than minimum wage. LD> We talked about that the various governments should create rules to protect their workers. Bob's reply was that, just for instance, there are 500 million unemployed Chinese, for whom working in a 3 cent an hour sweat shop beats not working at all, and that if 1 Chinese drops dead from overwork, there's always another ready & willing to take his place. What can the government do given this desperate situation. How should that be handled? Does anyone have any ideas? There is probably nothing that our Government can do, but that isn't the issue. The issue is: is it ethical for American Corporations to move industries to these countries in order to profit from (and thus encourage) these conditions. LD>If you get development in the 3rd world, he said, it feeds on itself. With more money coming in, there's more demand for goods, & also for better working standards. We went through the same process in the West, he told me. They burn rain forests, because they want to become modernized. If you tell them, please "no", they won't listen. The 3rd world says "no" to our labor standards. Bob is right. The third world countries won't listen. But does that release us from all moral responsibility? Bob is also right that we went through the same process in the West. We cut down ninety-five percent of our forests, relocated the native population to reservations--or in some cases eliminated whole tribes. We exploited our own people in the coal mines, destroyed whole eco-systems with poisons. Now in South America, the rain forests are being cleared to graze cattle. The biggest buyer of the hardwoods is Japan. Most of the Beef is exported to the U.S., but everyone denies buying it. In Thailand, the teak forests are already gone. In Mexico, large areas are no longer inhabitable because of pollution from chemicals imported from the United States.... My point is, we can't change our own past, but we can learn from it. We are the worlds most powerful economy, and have the power to push for changes in these third world countries if we really wanted to. We could ban the export of chemicals banned here because they poison the environment. We could offer to make substantial investments into these countries--creating safer conditions (but that would make the product more expensive to produce). In the short run, it is more profitable not to interfere. If the doctrine of distributive karma is correct, then we will have to suffer the consequences of the damage done in other countries, whether we are "responsible" for it or not. Therefore, theosophically speaking, this country has a moral obligation to try to mitigate this situation--not encourage it. Re. John Algeo's talk--I remember hearing this one about ten or twelve years ago at a convention in Wheaton. The fatal flaw in his talk, is that in reality, we are never limited to two pre- subscribed choices in these types of situations. In other words, the whole thing is a "set-up." Beyond demonstrating that there are tough choices in life, I don't feel that the talk is helpful in learning to make ethical decisions--but (unfortunately) that probably wasn't his point in the first place. Hypothetical situations can always be manipulated to fit the questioner's agenda. A more productive approach would be to draw from real life experiences of the audience and give them full freedom to explore the questions. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:53:56 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: Theosphy & Ethics A book came across my desk on its way to Africa. It's Annie Besant's "The Spiritual Life", & the article which I think fits in with what we've been discussing back & forth is called "Theosophy & Ethics". AB gave it as a speech to the parliament of religion in 1893, but I think it's still very cogent, if we can put it into practice. I'm paraphrasing & abridging, but I think her meaning comes across. Altruism, striving to perfect service to others, is a stage of progress, rather than a goal. As long as service is given to others, separated from our own self, there is still some incompleteness in our ethics. All true love has its root in unity. For our most beloved there is no such thing as service regarded as altruistic, because the deepest joy comes in serving the better self of each. As we grow, we find that the best beloved is humanity itself. We serve our Higher Self in serving it... Our destiny is 1: the perfection of a divine humanity that is 1 in origin and 1 in training. Unity is the foundation of brotherhood. ... All true conduct has its roots in the Law of Love. As long as external law is needed, that law is the measure of our imperfection. ... When the nature expressing itself spontaneously is one with the Divine Law (then) is humanity perfected. Ethical systems ask for some ... imperative which announces what is right. We don't need "If you would be perfect, do this or that" but we do need "you shall be perfect, and the Law of Life is thus". Is it not true that Nature speaks in this way? ... Humans ... not knowing the laws that surround them, desire to follow the promptings of their own untrained will ... are driven perhaps by the desires of the lower nature ... Nature mandates sternly "Thou shalt". The human will, able to choose, answers "I will not". Then 2 words fall upon the silence: "Then suffer" Such is the way in which physical nature teaches the inviolability of law. Humans ... dash themselves against the iron wall they cannot break, & the pain of the bruises teaches them ... Does nature speak as clearly in the moral & spritual worlds? ... All Nature is one.... But unhappily some have .... thought that they could sow 1 seed (vice) & reap another (virtue) If to you law seems cruel, & death soulless, you don't understand the universe. Law is but the will of the Divine, & the Divine desires your happiness. Law is but the expression of the perfect, & only in perfection can joy & peace be found. Ralph Waldo Emerson taught ... the great truth that nature looks cruel only when you oppose her; she is your strongest helper when you join yourself to her. (Since we're looking at "The Voice...." - "Help nature, and work on with her, and nature shall regard thee as one of her creators and make obeisance." Emerson tells to hitch your wagon to a star, & then the wagon shall move with all the force of the planet above you. ... Nature is conquered by obedience; the Divine is found in a unity of justice & love. Brotherhood in its full meaning is a law of nature. It will never become practical until people understand that it is a law, not an aspiration. When we discover a law of nature, we no longer fight against it. We at once adapt. People have not understood the absolute necessity of brotherhood. Every effort that goes against universal law fails. We are brothers & sisters in our bodies by the interaction of physical molecules. We are brothers & sisters in our minds by that interaction of mental images .. with which everyone of us is constantly affecting others. We are brothers & sisters in our spirits, above all. On every plane of life, brotherhood exists as a fact. We are apt to make a distinction between brothers & sisters in church & outside. The life of love ... starts in the home and builds on the passion & pity the mother feels for her child. That love extends to embrace every child, by strengthening & widening it. These relationships (in the home, & church)... teach the wider possibility. ("Voice of ...") "Follow the wheel of duty to race & kin." At the beginning of the path the first step is to make the heart respond "to every cry of pain..." Our love to those near us is lower love. We must grow upward, widening ... The love we are to give is to be measured by their need ... not by any lesser ties of personality that may or may not bind us to them. Karma & Reincarantion As humanity develops it answers to nobler & nobler impulses. If people will not learn by love, they must learn by pain . If they will not learn by longing for God, they must learn by experience of evil... The dissatisfaction of the temporary - that will turn him once more homeward, till he come near enough to be drawn by love & no longer by pain. As we reincarnate ... no one who molds character towards evil will discover tendencies to good. Thus we remove arbitrariness ... we take away all doubt & hope that we may escape the results of our own actions & creep into unearned bliss by some side door of vicarious atonement where we have not labored. We learn that each must walk on his or her own feet, grow by their own efforrt. Though other souls must help us, we must also help ourselves. Men & women ... stand in strength they have acquired for themselves ... that the still weaker may be inspired by their example ... All this has been our pricless heritage for millions of years. Every great teacher of religion has taught this. (She quotes several. Here's the last one:) "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, that you may be children of your Father in Heaven, who sendeth his sunlight on the evil & on the good, & sendeth rain alike on the just & unjust." Isn't that a nice belief system? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:54:43 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: J.H-E's comments re my Bob & John Algeo My dear Jerry! Your beginning remarks re questioning my Bob's ethics, sight unseen, doesn't make me feel especially sisterly towards you. My very a propos sisterly advice to you would be "don't be a supercilious academic." As a matter of fact, Bob has tenure, & expressing his opinions is not going to result in his losing his position, especially since his bosses' and his outfit's interests don't always coincide with those of large corporations. Re the red herring, I think there's no way we're going to be able, to stop most of the exporting of jobs to places where hourly wages are lower than ours. Rather than putting more people to work at McDonald's (who, on top of it, had lousy, flat, dried up hamburgers back in the days when I ate them), I would like to see the TRA stepped up, ie retraining of workers who've lost their jobs to foreign competition for jobs which are needed here. As for instance we seem to have a shortage of Master electricians & plumbers. That's one I happen to know about. There are others, but I don't have access anymore to the Dept of Labor's statistics. JHE "Is it ethical for American Corporations to move industries to these countries". In my experience all corporations are in business to make money, and only become ethical if someone else makes them... Very rarely do you find a business man who concerns himself with ethics, when he's concerned with his profit & loss statement. Andrew Carnegie comes to mind. He amassed a fortune not too ethically, & at the end of his life decided to donate a lot of money to building libraries. The Rockefeller Foundation has donated to worthy causes ... there's another one, whose founder wasn't too bent on running his business on ethics. You're barking up the wrong tree by asking whether the corporations are being ethical. That isn't going to change corporate thinking & acting one iota. You need to find a different handle. Preferably one with a Dollar sign attached to it. I'm with you when you talk about that we have the power to push for changes in the 3rd world countries. I'm all for doing that. I used another more personal & smaller power. I told my African Theosophical correspondent about what I'd read in that book, after he'd told me there were some American firms starting up in his country. For whatever it's worth. You're right, John Algeo's talk was given at a convention, probably at Lake Geneva, a number of years ago. Of course, John set up the whole thing. I can't see that you can draw situations from & have a free wheeling discussion with an audience of a few hundred people. When I went to school a prof with that many in class always lectured. I think the talk was given before the days when they broke up meetings such as this into small groups who discussed & then reported their findings & decisions back to the assembly as a whole. I thought the 2-choice answers were an imaginative & feasible middle ground between those 2 ways of presenting material. I'm sure that the questions John posed, which are realistic enough to this day, caused people in the audience to think & discuss among themselves what they would do under these circumstances. At least I put these situations onto our net because I thought they'd be interesting to discuss. TO: WILLIAM ALLEN I would think that by being on committees looking into how you are going to implement the new state mandate, you would be able to contribute something that would try to ameliorate, to the best of your persuasive powers & etc., said implementation towards your sense of the right & the feasible. I would consider that a worthwhile contribution, & I'd not feel guilty about it. You _need_ to work with that state mandate, ther is no other choice, but maybe there are shades of working with it that you can help implement. Apparently you've decided that it's not weighty enough to resign over it, & be without a job, & all that this entails for yourself & your family. I don't think you need to feel guilty either for having the urge to support your family. Aloha means Love Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:46:49 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Liesel's encouragement > I would think that by being on committees looking into how you > are going to implement the new state mandate, you would be able > to contribute something that would try to ameliorate, to the best > of your persuasive powers & etc., said implementation towards > your sense of the right & the feasible. Thanks, Liesel, for your encouraging words. I wish I could feel encouraged by them. I was in academic administration for almost eight years, had enough of it (difficult to maintain integrity in academic administration), and returned to teaching--which I really love. The problem is that I know only too well what being on a committee like this really means. We'll keep recommending until we get it right. Getting it right means the cheapest, easiest way of meeting the state mandate. That will be a multiple-choice test of some sort. Someone over the weekend spoke of ours being an age of enlightenment. Why do I feel just the opposite? I think we are living through an increasingly repressive and difficult period. I keep having images of the "new barbarians" crossing the Rhine via the electronic super highway. More and more I treasure a few close friends, my family, and plants. I have a hydrangea that knows more about education than most of colleagues know. Perhaps I shouldn't post on Monday. William Allen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:12:59 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: re: "My Bob" and John Algeo's talk Liesel, LD> My dear Jerry! Your beginning remarks re questioning my Bob's ethics, sight unseen, doesn't make me feel especially sisterly towards you. My very a propos sisterly advice to you would be "don't be a supercilious academic." Where in my message do you read that I questioned, either literally or by implication, Bob's ethics? It is true that I stated that a Masters in Business Administration does not give him any special knowledge of ethics--but this is certainly not a disparaging remark against him. An MBA certainly gives him knowledge in business practices, but not ethics. A trained brain surgeon would probably have no special expertise in plumbing, but that is nothing against him/her either. I'm sure that Bob is a fine decent person. But as you pointed out, I don't know him, so I made no reference to his ethical standards at all. In my response, I had confined my replies to the points he raised through you. As for being a "supercilious academic," I don't feel the remark is at all fair, nor is it very neighborly. I was neither disdaining or attacking Bob or anyone else. You posed Bob's comments to be responded to, and that is what I did. If disagreeing with Bob is reason for your "unsisterly feelings," then I will refrain from voicing any disagreement with Bob in the future. Perhaps one more clarification is in order--A person who does not have ethical training is not necessarily unethical. Such a person could be ethical; unethical; or a-ethical. Further, a person who has received ethical training is not necessarily ethical either. As for Bob, I have no idea where he is at, nor (from my view point) is it relevant to the discussion. LD> As a matter of fact, Bob has tenure, & expressing his opinions is not going to result in his losing his position, especially since his bosses' and his outfit's interests don't always coincide with those of large corporations. I'm sure that Bob did not express any opinions through you that would in any way bring criticism from his bosses, let alone threaten his position. His answers were, I think, quite representative of those of a well informed businessman. Also, I don't question his sincerity. My remark was in the spirit of those made earlier by Arthur Patterson, when he mentioned that our views are greatly conditioned by our circumstances. This is true for everybody--even people with tenure. Though he may be in no danger of losing his position, he still has to live with and get along with his fellow workers. Your newly raised qualification that Bob's "outfit's interests don't always coincide with those of large corporations" of course throws a different light on his fiduciary obligations. But he still has them. LD>Re the red herring, I think there's no way we're going to be able, to stop most of the exporting of jobs to places where hourly wages are lower than ours. Federal Laws could be enacted. Similar laws have been enacted before. But in this case it would neither be in the interest of Congress or Big Business to do so. It isn't a matter of ability, it is a matter of willingness. LD>Rather than putting more people to work at McDonald's (who, on top of it, had lousy, flat, dried up hamburgers back in the days when I ate them), I would like to see the TRA stepped up, ie retraining of workers who've lost their jobs to foreign competition for jobs which are needed here. As for instance we seem to have a shortage of Master electricians & plumbers. That's one I happen to know about. There are others, but I don't have access anymore to the Dept of Labor's statistics. Sounds good to me. LD>In my experience all corporations are in business to make money, and only become ethical if someone else makes them... Very rarely do you find a business man who concerns himself with ethics, when he's concerned with his profit & loss statement. Well stated, and this is exactly my point. This is why ethics is not a subject taught in Business schools. It is irrelevant to big business. LD> Andrew Carnegie comes to mind. He amassed a fortune not too ethically, & at the end of his life decided to donate a lot of money to building libraries. The Rockefeller Foundation has donated to worthy causes ... there's another one, whose founder wasn't too bent on running his business on ethics. What are you suggesting here? LD> You're barking up the wrong tree by asking whether the corporations are being ethical. That isn't going to change corporate thinking & acting one iota. You need to find a different handle. Preferably one with a Dollar sign attached to it. Of course you are right--corporations are in fact amoral entities--nor would I ever dream that my addressing a corporation's ethics would change them. My "handle" is not addressing the Corporations at all, but to make people (corporation's end customers) more aware of business practices. Things change when the majority of the people are fed up and are ready to change them. LD> I'm with you when you talk about that we have the power to push for changes in the 3rd world countries. I'm all for doing that. I used another more personal & smaller power. I told my African Theosophical correspondent about what I'd read in that book, after he'd told me there were some American firms starting up in his country. For whatever it's worth. Right on! It is what you can do, and you did it. That is worth a lot. That brings us back to my bottom line, which you did not quote from my last post: JHE>> If the doctrine of distributive karma is correct, then we will have to suffer the consequences of the damage done in other countries, whether we are "responsible" for it or not. Therefore, theosophically speaking, this country has a moral obligation to try to mitigate this situation--not encourage it. By "this country" I mean the people as well as the government. LD> You're right, John Algeo's talk was given at a convention, probably at Lake Geneva, a number of years ago. Of course, John set up the whole thing. I can't see that you can draw situations from & have a free wheeling discussion with an audience of a few hundred people. With my training as an educator, I can. With John Algeo's many years as a university Professor I think he could too--if he wanted to. Also, the audience probably wasn't over 120. LD>When I went to school a prof with that many in class always lectured. The old time professors still do. Many of them don't like to change. After all they have tenure--they can't be fired--they can recycle their twenty year old lecture notes without having to keep up with the changing ideas in their area. It can be a real soft job, or a challenging one. I've known lots of profs like that. LD>I think the talk was given before the days when they broke up meetings such as this into small groups who discussed & then reported their findings & decisions back to the assembly as a whole. The talk was given in the mid eighties. Cooperative education (breaking into groups and reporting back) started in the educational system in the early seventies. My wife and I have been breaking large audiences into groups since 1980 when we met. She has been doing it since it began in the early seventies perhaps earlier--I'll have to check with April). In 1984 at the Ojai Theosophical Networking Conference, we broke up an audience of 150 into small groups to discuss intertheosophical networking. LD>I thought the 2-choice answers were an imaginative & feasible middle ground between those 2 ways of presenting material. I'm sure that the questions John posed, which are realistic enough to this day, caused people in the audience to think & discuss among themselves what they would do under these circumstances. It is not the realism of the questions that I have a problem with. His limiting the responses to two answers just created anxiety, and as I remember, a lot of protests and grumbling from the audience. It was just another version of the old Skinner approach to behavioral psychology--put a rat in an electrified box and see how it will react. It is not a natural situation. For instance, under natural circumstances, the rat would have the option of walking away from the situation. With John's questions, the audience would have had a wonderful opportunity to explore the issues behind them if they had not been restricted to two precalculated answers. Further, as I recall the talk, the responses from the audience did not matter anyway, as John had already written his conclusions. As I say, the whole thing was rigged. LD> At least I put these situations onto our net because I thought they'd be interesting to discuss. I'm glad you did. I think the questions have value when opened for free discussion. I also think that individual experiences have even more value for this kind of discussion, because we are able to look more deeply into the underlying circumstances by asking questions of the person who had the experience. Best Jerry H.E. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:13:16 -0500 From: jcoker@eis.calstate.edu (Jessica L. Coker) Subject: Christmas/Solstice stories/quotes??? This is from Nancy. Tues. a.m. Hello again. I just got a new computer and am switching from DOS to WINDOWS and have been just bearly/barely? treading water and definitely NOT keeping up with what look to be very interesting conversations. I need to design Christmas/Solstice greetings and would like input -- do any of you have favorite TS/spiritual/inspiring quotes or stories you'd be up for sharing, remembering or giving book:page no.'s? This letter will be going out to people who are taking the Theosophical Correspondence Courses and have a passing understanding of our principles. I'm about to start researching it myself, but if anyone has a seasonally appropriate -- is that a new term? -- saying or quote, I'd be very very appreciative. I'll begin by sharing one we used long ago for Deva: Tell me the weight of a snowflake, a coal mouse asked a wild dove. Nothing more than nothing, was the answer In that case, I must tell you a marvelous story, the coal-mouse said. I sat on the branch of a fir, close to its trunk, when it began to snow -- not heavily, not in a raging blizzard -- no just like in a dream, without a wound and without any violence. Since I did not have anything better to do, I counted the snowflakes settling on the twigs and needles of my branch. Their number was exactly 3,741,952. When the 3,741,953rd dropped onto dropped onto the branch, nothing more than nothing, as you say the branch broke off. Having said that the coal-mouse flew away The dove, since Noah's time, an authority on the matter, thought about the story for a while and finally said to herself, Perhaps there is only one person's voice lacking for peace to come to the world. This was taken from New Fables, Thus Spoke the Carabou by Kurt Kauter, tho I've never been able to trace it to its source. Since we discovered it, it has been reprinted in the UN's news and on many greeting cards I can use it again, but I'd like something new. Any help is appreciated. Nancy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:31:15 -0500 From: John Mead Subject: Sacred Geometry list started -- FYI only > Subject: (fwd) Sacred/Masonic Architecture/Geometry > A listserv had been set up for folks interested in pursuing the > subjects of Sacred Geometry and Sacred Architecture. This notice > is being posted in sci.archaeology, alt.architecture, > alt.architecture.alternative, alt.mythology, alt.freemaonry, > alt.masonic.members, and alt.sustainable.agriculture. Please > repost it wherever you think it may fit. Details about the > group's purpose and how to subscribe follow: > > ================================================ > WHAT THIS LISTSERV IS FOR > ================================================ > > This listserv deals with the topics of Sacred Geometry and Sacred > Architecture. It is part of a larger listserv that incorporates > interests in sustainable agriculture and Permaculture landscape > design. The overlaps between these seemingly disparate fields > may surprise some of you who join this list via the freemasonry, > archaeology, or mythology newsgroups, but will probably be > familiar to those who came here via the sustainable agriculture > and/or alternative architecture newsgroups. > > Topics to be covered include > > SACRED GEOMETRY: > History and philosophy > Natural proportion, patterns, latent geometry > Platonic solids > Ratio and proportion > Pythagoras, Fibonacci, phi, golden section > Links between geometry, music, architecture > Neo-Platonic revival > Deco-era industrial design revival > > SACRED ARCHITECTURE OF: > Megaliths > Middle East > Asia > Egypt > Crete > Greece > Rome > Prehistoric Europe > Medieval Europe > Renaissance Europe > Australia-Pacific Islands > Africa > North America > Meso-America > South America > Modern era > > TANGENT TOPICS: > Natural "holy" sites > Archaeo-astronomical observatory sites > Sundials and astro-calendrical devices > Labyrinths and symbolic landscaping > Ley lines, geomancy, feng shui > Religion, myth, superstition, cosmology > Astrology, alchemy, cabalism, magic squares > Religious iconography in architecture > Freemasonic symbolism in architecture > Pre-Columbian diffusion: architectural evidence > > SACRED GEOMETRY AND ARCHITECTURE BIBLIOGRAPHY > > The first service this portion of the listserv was established to > provide is an archived bibliography of books on Sacred Geometry > and Sacred Architecture. The bibliography is being co-ordinated > by catherine yronwode, and updated versions will be available > through SUNsite. > > If you are interested in contributing to the bibliography, please > send titles and author names to the bibliography co-ordinator, > catherine yronwode. If the titles do not appear on her rough > list now in preparation, she will contact you reuqesting further > data on them, including a key-word list of contents (to enable > people to use their own word-processing program to search for > subject headings) and brief comment on the books. > > contact: cyronwode@aol.com > > SACRED SITE TOURISM > > The second project envisioned is an archived list of sacred > architectural sites of the world suitable for tourism. You are > invited to write up and post to the group brief descriptions of > or inquiries about any sites you think a geometrician, architect, > or Permaculturist like yourself would want to see. > > For instance: how many of you have been to The Garden of Eden in > Lucas, Kansas? Well, it was built by a Master Mason, Alfred P. > Dinsmoor, and it contains many Masonic emblems and Pythagorean > ratios within its walls -- as well as being a premiere example of > "naive" figurative architecture, complete with concrete > representations of "Capital Versus Labor," "Christ Crucified by > the Banker, Lawyer, Doctor, and Priest," and Biblical scenes such > as "Cain Slaying Abel." A "Masonic Mausoleum" on the grounds > holds Mr. Dinsmoor's embalmed remains, dressed in his Masonic > costume, with a glass panel so that you can view him. Sure, it's > not on the same scale as Borbadur or Luxor, but what in Kansas > is? > > OTHER STUFF > > Anything else relevant to Sacred Architecture, Sacred Geometry, > and the like is welcome here, so feel free to pitch in and make > yourself heard. > > ================================================ > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE > ================================================ > > Please save this message so that you will have instructions on > how to send a message or leave the list. > > TO SEND A MESSAGE to everyone subscribed to the list, i.e. to > submit your article to the mailing list, send e-mail to: > > sustag-principles@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu > > For example: send e-mail to: > sustag-principles@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu > > TO SEE WHO IS SUBSCRIBED, send e-mail to almanac@ces.ncsu.edu > with the message: > > review sustag-principles > > To SUBSCRIBE, send e-mail to almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu with > the message: > > subscribe sustag-principles > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE, send e-mail to almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the > message: > > unsubscribe sustag-principles > > TO SEE WHICH LISTS you are subscribed to, send e-mail to > almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the message: > > which > > TO RECEIVE MORE INFORMATION, on Almanac commands send e-mail to > almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the message: > > send guide > > Electronically yours, > > The Almanac System Administrator for NCCES > e-mail: > > Yours for more neat architecture, all over the world -- and the > brains to appreciate it, > > catherine yronwode From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:33:20 -0500 From: euser Subject: Martin to Jerry H-E & others Hello, I would like to continue the discussion about my psychological division of kama-manas. Also, I like to connect these things to macrocosmic principles. And Sacred geometry and crystals. To JERRY H-E: You see these divisions as consciousness expressing itself in sub-sub states of kama-manas. I more or less agree, but would like to note that the two poles I established _within_ the human psyche, must correspond to poles in the macrocosmos. That's why I compared them or identified them with the loka-tala poles. HPB gives an interesting scheme in her esoteric instructions (oral teachings) which is more or less parallel to my division. She talks about the loka-tala's as states of consciousness _within_ man! and gives corresponding principles, elements, hierarchies and much more. I think GdP indicated these kind of things in his esoteric instructions when he wrote about the sub-sub planes or states of loka-tala's. Does this make any sense to you? At last, we _know_ that man corresponds to the universe in every sense. He is himself a macrocosmos to the life-atoms that compose his body. So, we must not be reluctant to apply the principles of analogy. TO MURRAY STENTIFORD: I understand that *you* compiled the list of books you sent me. Thanks. Does this imply that you yourself are interested in discussing scientific issues, like experiments with crystals, formation of the foetus, etc.? Please let me know. TO JOHN MEAD: Are you interested in discussing your work with Hodson, regarding experiments/observations with crystals? That would be a nice starting point for recognition of formative principles involved in these things. Also, Sacred geometry could be involved with this. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:56:47 -0500 From: MURRAY@sss.co.nz Subject: Re: Martin to Jerry H-E & others To Martin Euser:- I'm glad to see your message:- > TO MURRAY STENTIFORD: > > I understand that *you* compiled the list of books you sent me. > Thanks. Does this imply that you yourself are interested in > discussing scientific issues, like experiments with crystals, > formation of the foetus, etc.? Please let me know. > > > TO JOHN MEAD: > > Are you interested in discussing your work with Hodson, regarding > experiments/observations with crystals? That would be a nice > starting point for recognition of formative principles involved > in these things. Also, Sacred geometry could be involved with > this. I tried to send a message to your e-mail address euser@xs4all.NL a couple of weeks ago, but the address was rejected and I couldn't get through. I am certainly interested in discussing scientific issues, especially as they relate to theosophy in its widest sense. I assisted Hodson with a series of investigations on crystals etc, as well as in another series on music forms. I have tapes and raw transcripts of the crystal work, and notes of the music work. As I mentioned in my post of 2nd November 94, there's a larger body of raw material with David Lyness' son, I believe. Where would you like to start? The list is probably the best place to start a specific dialogue, at this stage, for the sake of airing and sharing. You could also try sending a message to me at murray@sss.co.nz. It would be interesting to see if it gets through. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:11:17 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: principles Martin Euser, ME>I would like to continue the discussion about my psychological division of kama-manas. Also, I like to connect these things to macrocosmic principles. And Sacred geometry and crystals. Great! My experience with sacred geometry is that it is a very intuitive thing. By working with the geometric relationships, patterns begin to emerge and new meanings begin to form out of them. However, I'm not sure that a discussion of those patterns and meanings would be very productive unless the listener is in the same space (pun intended). What do you think? ME>To JERRY H-E: You see these divisions as consciousness expressing itself in sub-sub states of kama-manas. I more or less agree, but would like to note that the two poles I established _within_ the human psyche, must correspond to poles in the macrocosmos. That's why I compared them or identified them with the loka-tala poles. *Expressing* is the key word here. As to the loka-tala poles, as I understand it, they can correspond to either the solar planes, the principles, or to sub-sub states of kama manas. I see no reason why they can't also correspond to the macrocosmos, but I don't recall HPB making that direct correspondence. GdeP may have, but I haven't read him recently. I guess the more important question is--what is the point you want to make by corresponding the loka-tala poles to the macrocosmos? ME> HPB gives an interesting scheme in her esoteric instructions (oral teachings) which is more or less parallel to my division. She talks about the loka-tala's as states of consciousness _within_ man! and gives corresponding principles, elements, hierarchies and much more. I think GdP indicated these kind of things in his esoteric instructions when he wrote about the sub-sub planes or states of loka-tala's. I assume that you are referring to ~Instruction IV~ when you say "oral teachings." Yes, GdeP drew very heavily from both HPB and Judge's E.S. Instructions. ME> Does this make any sense to you? At last, we _know_ that man corresponds to the universe in every sense. He is himself a macrocosmos to the life-atoms that compose his body. So, we must not be reluctant to apply the principles of analogy. No problem here. I think we can draw all kinds of valid correspondences not specifically stated in the teachings. However, behind every correspondence is a deeper teaching that reveals the exact nature of the correspondence. It is these deeper teachings that I try to draw out. Did you receive my e-mail to you? Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 11:55:49 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: TO: WILLIAM ALLEN, & JERRY H-E Re your answer of 11-21 to my "encouragement". Sorry it wasn't enough to the point. I should know whereof you speak. My brother once changed deanships because of this kind of garbage, & the change wasn't for the better. I myself had other kinds of unacceptableness while I worked for 23 years for the State of NJ, and, other jobs before that. I have a sneaking suspicion that most people do on their job. I think it's more of a consolation to me than it will be to you who are still working to hear what rules I've made for myself since I retired. I absolutely & categorically refuse to do anything I don't really enjoy doing wholeheartedly. Several years ago I got the whole local AAPR board mad at me, because when I found out that my new job as V.P. entailed nothing but addressing & mailing out the monthly bulletin, I just refused to do it. Paperwork was that part of my job as unit supervisor which I abhorred but had to do. Paperwork under any guise is one thing I now relentlessly refuse to do. About a half a year ago I ran a music program at the Senior Citizens' apt. complex where I live. I did it successfully for 3 months. I have lots of experience at that sort of thing. Every time I gave a program either the recreation director or her asisstant (both fresh out of college, & green) got into my hair in some way or another. I ran the program for 3 months. I got aggravated for 3 months. I tried to tell them. Nothing changed. Then I quit. It's too bad. We have no more music program, & there are music lovers in the building ... Let me tell ya. I lead a very busy retiree's life doing things I just love to do. My only restraints are my health & my finances. But that's the way the cookie crumbles. When I feel good, which, thanks to Harry, & to Timothy Schaub DC, is most often, so far, I have a ball. As for the "new barbarians crossing the Rhine via the electronic super highway" I'm hoping to have an amaryllis blooming by Christmas. It's putting up a shoot. My friends are people who, like myself are working in some small way to civilise the new barbarians, & I'm hopeful that there are enough of us in the world today to eventually prevail. Of course, the bubble got burst the other day, when 4 suburban football hero bullies sadistically beat up an 11 year old boy I know. Now there's an attempt to heal the boy, & to rein in the bullies, if possible. I try to be optimistic, but it's hard sometimes. What else can I tell ya? You try. DYB, DYB, DYB, my Cub Scouts used to say, you "do your best!" Re: yours of 11/22 You've had your say, & I've had mine. Suppose we now say "fins" & go on from there. I'm not too interested in fighting anymore, especially not fellow Theosophists. OK with you? JH-E "Things change when the majority of the people are fed up and are ready to change them" Right on. & do something constructive about it. Re your quote about "distributive karma". I agree, but wouldn't you say that, since what happens to one affects all, the obligation to try to mitigate a situation in a foreign country is not only a moral one, except if you call self preservation "moral", it's also imperative. I've had several experiences with violence, like having 2 kids with a knife take my purse in an elevator. I also know of the husband of a colleague of mine who was an insurance agent who collected money in the projects every week. One fine day some guys choloroformed him in an elevator, & when he woke up, all his money & his jewelry was gone. To the contrary, a dear friend of mine was a black chaplain who worked in the county jail. He felt it as one of his duties to visit people in the ghetto hospital (probably family of inmates, who were worried about their kin or girl friends.) He did this when he had time at night. One night he was just about to get into his car, when 2 guys started to hold him up. Then they got a look at his face, said "Reverend Salters!" and went the other way. But these aren't tales where you chose what to do, you just did. I can't think of any like that. The State Police came to our offices once & trained us on how to defend ourselves a little. Nevertheless one of my colleagues once got approached from behind & beaten up by an unknown woman who had just been released from a mental hospital. Our guard, an off-duty police man, frequently chased addicts out of our waiting area, where they lay sleeping, completely spaced out; & once I found a pusher working in the corridor in front of our men's room. What did I do? I tried my damndest to get decent jobs for my applicants, so they could move out of the ghetto. There surely wasn't enough training available, & often they didn't want training, because they needed bread immediately, or if not bread then diapers. (& if you asked them "well what kind of work can you do?" the usual answer was "Anything. I'm quick to learn." But when I retired, Reaganomics had us so wrapped up in paperwork, & producing statistics, that there was hardly any time left over to refer applicants to jobs. At that point, I decided to retire. If I'd stuck it out for 2 more years, I would have gotten my Major Medical Insurance paid for. As it is, I shell out 120 odd Dollars every month for it. I guess, here's another answer to William Allen. You stick it out, until you can reasonably quit, or find some other kind of work. You know WILIIAM I remember how worried we were during World War II, because we realized all the mistakes the Allies were making. Well, you know how that one ended. We won anyway. Same when McCarthy came. I remeber taking a current events class at that time, when no one dared open their mouth. Well, Mc Carth went after a while. It gave me faith. Somehow, we seem to make it. Let's find ways to change business ethics, shall we? Or maybe we should first try to dealienate the kids in the ghettos. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 10:56:02 -0500 From: euser Subject: Re: Martin to Murray and Jerry H-E To Jerry H-E: Regarding your remark about discussing patterns and meanings emerging from geometric relationships, I would say, yes, it's a very intuitive study. I guess Murray is interested to join that type of study & discussion. The start of that could be on this list, maybe leading to private E-mail discussions. Regarding correspondences and loka-tala poles: the whole point is to recognize how some of the deductive principles we know (7 jewels & related) apply analogically to the macro vs micro worlds. In sacred geometry there are some starting points for that too. I don't have the collected writings of HPB, but I assume the oral teachings of HPB to include ~Instruction IV~. I have this material in the edition of SD 'III' from Annie Besant (Adyar edition). About deeper teachings behind correspondences: you say you try to draw them out. So, do I want to try. BTW, I received your E-mail. To Murray: We had a breakdown at our site a couple of weeks ago. Maybe you can try again sending E-mail to me. I will do the same to you today. You ask: where would you like to start? Well, I suppose it may be a good idea if you tell something about the background and exact purpose of this research, maybe some of it's results and interpretations. I'll try to borrow some books of Hodson on music forms & crystals from a Theosophic library. I guess Jerry H-E would like to join discussion of these things as sacred geometry must be involved with the interpretation of these kind of things. So, what do you think? Maybe you could get in contact with David Lyness' son for some additional material on Hodson's research. Like I suggested to Jerry (and like you mentioned), discussion could start on this list. To Jerry Schueler: I read a part of your work on chaos-theory. One thing I like about it is the famous 'butterfly-effect'. It reminds me of the impact even one individual can have on this world by a concentrated effort for good or worse.. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 11:38:48 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Thanks, Liesel > As for the "new barbarians crossing the Rhine via the electronic > super highway" I'm hoping to have an amaryllis blooming by > Christmas. That was the nicest reply to a nasty remark I've ever received. And I like the point very much. Thanks again. William From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 12:26:14 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: TO; WILLIAM ALLEN Re: the new electronic barbarians Things can get very frustrating when you're dealing with gov't red tape. How about for Christmas we could send thought forms of hydrangeas & amaryllises to each electronic barbarian in the world. Godspeed, William. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 13:27:34 -0500 From: "Liesel F. Deutsch" Subject: Re: Martin to Murray to Jerry H-E If you're interested in including pyramids, there's a chapter on that in Serge King's "Earth Energies". Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 03:34:43 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: geometry;principles;ethics Martin Euser, ME> Regarding your remark about discussing patterns and meanings emerging from geometric relationships, I would say, yes, it's a very intuitive study. I guess Murray is interested to join that type of study & discussion. The start of that could be on this list, maybe leading to private E-mail discussions. Ok ME> Regarding correspondences and loka-tala poles: the whole point is to recognize how some of the deductive principles we know (7 jewels & related) apply analogically to the macro vs micro worlds. In sacred geometry there are some starting points for that too. I think I follow what you are saying. There are also false analogies, so we will have to be careful. ME> I don't have the collected writings of HPB, but I assume the oral teachings of HPB to include ~Instruction IV~. I have this material in the edition of SD 'III' from Annie Besant (Adyar edition). Besant made a lot of changes in this material--no doubt in good faith, but not necessarily well advised ones. Volume twelve of the ~Collected Writings~ is more reliable, and I suggest would be a good investment. You know, of course, that the instructions in Volume III were never intended to be part of HPB's proposed third volume. ME> About deeper teachings behind correspondences: you say you try to draw them out. So, do I want to try. Great! ME> BTW, I received your E-mail. Good. I'm on the edge of my seat. Liesel, LD> Re your quote about "distributive karma". I agree, but wouldn't you say that, since what happens to one affects all, the obligation to try to mitigate a situation in a foreign country is not only a moral one, except if you call self preservation "moral", it's also imperative. Yes, but keep in mind how deep distributive karma runs. Every time we go shopping, use an automobile, heat our home, etc. we are participating in the system. As I will trying to get across before--though the system inherently corrupt, we all benefit from it. I think change is possible, but it will take a major educational effort of the general population, and a commitment of the majority to start operating upon a very different level than they are now. I'm not suggesting that we give up automobiles, food, cars etc., but we need to be aware of the problems and act with greater sensitivity. Regarding your experiences with violence, you are not alone. Poverty is steadily growing in this country as the wealth is being concentrated among the few. For ten years, we lived in Venice (California), which was said to have one of the heaviest concentrations of homeless people and drug dealers in the country. People lived under our bedroom window day and night. I saw women with small children living in spaces between the buildings. The smell of urine was everywhere. Robberies, rapes, maimings were daily occurrences. Murders were occasional. Though we were very careful, my wife still had a close call or two. I remember getting up in the morning for work, and finding people laying unconscious on the sidewalk in front and near our house with some regularity. Drugs were also sold daily in front of our house. On several occasions I had arguments with the dealers who didn't want me to park in front of my own house. "This is a drug zone" they would tell me. I told them that I live here, and they would just have to put up with me. They usually did, but occasionally vandalized my car to make their point. A neighbor used to call the police every hour or so to come out and arrest the pushers. The police would send out a well marked patrol car to the neighborhood, and the pushers would disappear into the shadows until the car passed, then continued their business. Our neighbor would call again, and the police would tell him that they had just sent a patrol car out and saw nothing. I remember when President Bush started his famous war on drugs campaign. He toured the drug ridden neighborhoods--I guess so that he could say that he knew what he was talking about. Our neighborhood was chosen to be one of the places he was to "tour." About a week before he was to drive through, the police came in and picked up all of the homeless, putting them into shelters, and jailed or drove the drug dealers to another neighborhood (security precautions no doubt). Someone also painted a "no drugs" graffiti on the street. For a few days, the neighborhood was really nice. No drug pushers, no homeless, no litter--it was perhaps the safest neighborhood in the country to live. Within days after Bush made his tour, the homeless and the pushers returned, and it was business as usual. By they way, you may wonder why we chose to live in such a horrible neighborhood. It was the cheapest neighborhood that one could live in that was still only a block from the ocean. We could see the ocean from our second story window. My wife came from the mid west, and naively wanted to live there because she never lived near the Ocean before. She wanted the experience. Further, I sensed that the neighborhood was underpriced, and that it was a matter of time before it would be cleaned up, so we eventually bought the house we were living in. My hunch was right. We sold the property and made a fifty percent profit in five years. Two years ago we visited the neighborhood. The city was finally beginning to clean the place up, as the neighborhood was beginning to be populated with a critical mass of wealthy investors. Give it ten years, and it should become one of the most expensive and exclusive places in the country to live. Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:17:37 -0500 From: "WILLAM ALLEN" Subject: Theosophy Libraries I've heard several people mention theosophy libraries. Are these lend-by-mail libraries? Does one have to join or pay a fee to use these libraries? Any advice appreciated. William Allen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:04:09 -0500 From: Olcott Library Subject: Theosophical Libraries The Olcott Library & Research Center is the "national" library of the Theosophical Society in America, located in Wheaton, Illinois. It was founded in 1926 and has a collection of over 15,000 titles of books, periodicals, audio and video cassettes in the subject areas of Theosophy, Eastern philosophy and religions, comparative religion, and related subjects in the Ancient Wisdom tradition. The library is open every day except Monday. About one third of our borrowing transactions are by mail. To qualify for borrowing privileges a person must be a member either of the Theosophical Society in America or of the Olcott Library. Library membership for non-TSA-members is $30.00 per year for mail borrowing. Patrons may receive up to 5 books and 4 audio cassettes by mail for a 6-week borrowing period, which includes time for mailing. Videotapes can be rented for $5.00 each for a 4-week period, including mailing time. The library has published an Annotated Book List (1990) which lists ca. 2400 titles of books, grouped by subjects. It can be purchased for $10.00 postpaid. A partial listing of audio and videotapes is available for $7.00. We receive some borrowers' requests by e-mail and welcome more. For a descriptive brochure of the Library (includes a membership application form), please send your request to: olcott@dupagels.lib.il.us Mailing address: PO Box 170, Wheaton, IL 60189-0270 Phone: (708) 668-1571 Ext. Library The Library has just purchased computer software which will enable us to create a computerized catalog and circulation system. We are using OCLC (Online Computer Library Center in Columbus, Ohio) to provide us with most of the catalog records we need. It will take 1-2 years to automate the library. Once the system is functional it will be possible to access our catalog by phone through direct dial access and request materials that way. Look for progress reports on our automation project in THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST (magazine for members of the Theosophical Society in America). There are various other theosophical libraries, but I believe we are the only one that caters to mail patrons. Elisabeth Trumpler Head Librarian Olcott Library & Research Center