From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 05:45:41 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: Synthesis SYNTHESIS This is from Daniel Hampson When I'm preparing overheads for a curriculum, I peruse the copy, highlighting key points that I think should be visualized. Using my computer, I delete the unmarked sections and link the points, eliminating extraneous conjunctions and dangling participles. I would never want to quote anyone using this technique, but it often crystallizes an underlying theme in a work or provides unusual juxtapositions that suggest interesting visual possibilities. The other evening I did that with several postings in this forum to help me visualize "The Theosophy Game". This is what I got.... (I'll put my comments in other postings) A spiral staircase, the musical allusions between lives, Leadbeater's idea of the 3 laws of human life, the 7 levels of astral matter, those lessons being derived by the player instead of being beaten into the teachings. What criteria to teach the unity of all things, reincarnation and karma? From: MOYER1@applelink.apple.com (Moyer, Christopher,CLA) Perhaps it should be a related suite of games, group(s) of organize semi-secret assets used to fight the manipulation of the Media to ensure the survival of the "Cause" From: John Mead With the advent of computer books, libraries, aerobic clubs, mental fitness centers where members of the population are socializing, MIND TRAINING CENTERS - Software (education and fun). From: eldon@netcom .com (Eldon B. Tucker)(BRENDA) in the 20th Century: What have we achieved ? wherever thought tends to be free, theosophy has influenced and been influenced by paradigm shifts; the formation and structure of Halcyon's Temple of the People; Where Do We Go From Here? Understand and disseminate the concepts of unity and diversity; reaching youth by speaking in their language; the cornerstone of future religions, a new institute for theosophical education 1) What does the theosophical movement need to do in the 21st century to be of service to the world; and 2) what steps... inner needs first, then expanding to outer concerns: 1. Clarify the teachings: Have clear and sound knowledge 2. Practice theosophy as a way of self-transformation 3. Balance mind and heart: Cultivate the heart aspect 4. Participate in theosophical activities with creative energy 5. Make theosophy inclsive of other spiritual traditions 6. Adapt to contemporary world and language: Explore 7. Educate: Develop programs and methods to disseminate 8. Involve Youth: Revitalize the theosophical movement 9. Network: Increase interaction and association 10. Reach Out: Encourage broader outreach of activities 1. Clarify an understanding of the basic principles. 2. Apply principles to self-transformation. 3. Share principles with others. In other words, "learn it, then just do it!" 1. What are the essential teachings of theosophy 2. How do we adapt old language and ideas to modern world? 3. How should theosophy present itself to the world now? 4. Where's the party? does theosophy need to be so serious From: johnshafer@aol.com the part that leads to the door to the Mysteries. Ths is a path The second part is the keynote ideas and ethics We must work basic ideas of philosophy into our media, The way the stories go, and how they end, reveal the bias that could lead to accepting evil in one's life. From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 09:02:27 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Help w/Title This weekend I've been thinking about revising the title and subtitle of my work in progress. The provisional ones have been Initiates: Disciples of the Theosophical Masters. The problem with them, which has become apparent as the manuscript has evolved, is that the title is too vague and the subtitle too specific. That is, it's not about initiates in general, which would include all those folks like Besant, Leadbeater, Arundale, Bailey, etc. who claim to have had contact with Masters on higher planes. It's about people who made historically verifiable contacts with initiatory traditions on the plane of mundane reality. The subtitle is too specific, because although the investigation starts with disciples of the Theosophical Masters, in many cases the focus is not on the Theosophical connection but on other aspects of the character's initiatory experience. Thus I have come up with EXOTIC INITIATIONS: Theosophy and the Discovery of Eastern Wisdom. The "exotic" makes it clear that the focus is on Westerners who sought initiation outside of their native culture because they were fascinated by the possibility of transcending their cultural identities. And, conversely, there is also a focus on Asians who became bearers of initiatory traditions to the West. The subtitle indicates that Theosophy is the keynote of the investigation but makes it clearer than before that the scope is not limited to the Theosophical movement. Any comments or suggestions? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 12:48:10 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Help w/Title On second thought, replace "discovery of" with "quest for" in the subtitle. Better? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 20:53:09 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Internet Source(s) for Magick (FYI) posted by jem -- for general info. ======================================== The Mage's Guide to the Internet (MaGI) Edited by Tyagi Nagasiva VERSION: It is Version 2, issued 940429. ________________________________________________________________________ LOCATION: The Mage's Guide to the Internet shall be located at the following sites and may be obtained via anonymous ftp: heimdall.riapub.com /pub/alamut/resources/mage_guide2.txt etext.archive.umich.edu /pub/Quartz/occult/mages-guide2 slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com /pub/magick/MaGI2 ftp.lysator.liu.se /pub/magick/Net/mage_guide2 and you may find it at these sites: gopher://una.hh.lib.umich.edu/00/inetdirsstacks/magick%3anagasiva http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu:8001/usr/sk4p/om ======================================================== CONTENTS Introduction I. Magick and Related 1. Message-based Connections (Email and Posts) PRIVATE EMAIL (Individuals and Groups) PUBLIC GROUPS Listserv/Other (Email Groups) Usenet (Posts to Newsgroups) 2. Telnet Magical Links (Posts and Live) BULLETIN BOARD SYSTEMS (BBSs) (via Telnet) (Posts and Live) INTERNET RELAY CHAT (IRC) (Server via Telnet) (Live) MULTI-USER DIMENSIONS (MU*s) (Posts and Live) 3. File Transfer Protocol (FTP) (Files) SITE ADDRESSES (Files) 4. Other Servers (Files and Text) GOPHERS (Files and Text) WAIS - Wide Area Info. Service (Files) WFS - Waffle File Server (Files) WWW - World-Wide Web (Files and Text) 5. Epublications/Eguides (Miscellaneous) II. Mysticism and Related III. General Appendices A. FTP File Structures Magick and Related etext.archive.umich.edu /pub/Quartz/occult ftp.lysator.liu.se /pub/magick heimdall.riapub.com /pub/alamut/topy slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com /pub/magick wiretap.spies.com /Library/Fringe Mysticism and Related coombs.anu.edu.au .../electronic-buddhist-archives ftp.lysator.liu.se /pub/religion/pagan ftp.lysator.liu.se /pub/religion/zen ftp.netcom.com /pub/dharma B. The OMNet - Foundation Document C. Divination Web II - Reopening Information ________________________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 22:40:34 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: OBE CLASS TIMES (fwd) I'm forwarding this on for those who expressed interest in this subject and are NOT on compuserve. I left it pretty much unchanged - since the "TYPE" of class (purpose, approach etc.) is still relevent at our "removed" location. (especially when we upload the transcipts I will post the Log files from the Class-Conference on CIS as soon as they are available (usually within a day or two of the event). Don has agreed to field questions here on Theos-Buds. If you need help obtaining the class notes feel free to ask for help (send e-mail to jem@vnet.net). They are in the theos-l archives and theos-l ftp site. (do_obe.txt or do_obe.zip) some of this stuff is going to be very elementary for many people. This is unavoidable. sorry. Some of it will be controversial too. Peace -- John Mead attached: Don's letter as sent to Compuserve participants... > ASTRAL PROJECTION/ OOBE classes with Don DeGracia will be starting > on May 10 and will meet on Tuesday nights at 10 PM EDT in the > Dreams/ESP/Mind Room 12. > > To prepare for the May 10 CO, make sure you read the 1st reading > assignment: AP_01.TXT/AP_02.TXT, which are titled FILE 1 and FILE > 2. > > We will begin our study of astral projection/OBEs by looking at > occult ideas of Humans and Nature. > > What will happen at the May 10 CO is the following: > > 1. I would like to briefly highlight what I feel are the important > points about the reading assignment. I would like to spend maybe > 10 minutes (or less) doing this during each CO. > > 2. I would like to spend the rest of the CO answering questions > people have about the reading material. With this, I would like to > stay focused on the reading material during the CO. If we run out > of questions that directly pertain to that week's reading, then we > can take other questions. > > > 2. THIS WEEK'S ASSIGNMENTS > > We have two assignments for the 1st week: > > Assignment #1. Start a dream/obe journal. What this means is I > want people to begin writing down their experiences right now at > the very beginning of the class. And if all goes well, this you > will continue to do this long after the class. It is not until > AP_04.TXT that I go off on the virtues of writing down all your > experiences, so you can read ahead about this if you like. > However, I'll say now that it is critically important that you get > in the habit of recording your experiences of altered states of > consciousness. So, what I want you do to is to begin recording > your dreams at the very least, and, if you are already > experimenting with obes, I want you to begin recording your > experiences of them. If you want to post your experiences as > messages in the forum, I really encourage this. But whatever you > do, start keeping records of it. Make sure you record times and > dates in your journal also. > > Assignment #2: > > The other assignment this week is: > > Using the forum's msg boards, find out about as many > different types of occultism as you can. Make a list > of all the schools of occult-type thought represented > in the New Age forum. > > Now, the purpose of this assignment is to get you familiar with the > really wide range of occult viewpoints that exist. Nowadays, we > speak of the "New Age", but, in reality, the ideas of the "New Age" > have been around for centuries, since the beginning of recorded > history. There is actually nothing new about the "New Age" at all! > Such ideas have surfaced off an on throughout human history in > various forms and guises and as various different movements. Part > of the purpose of this exercise is to help everyone realize this. > > The second major reason for giving this assignment is because, when > you read the class notes, you are getting MY particular > interpretation of occult ideas. By far my interpretation is not > the only interpretation that exists. Many, many different > interpretations of occult ideas exist, and the purpose of this > assignment is to go out into the forum and talk to other forum > members. whether they are in the class or not, and try to get some > feel for the widely different approaches to occultism that exist. > > Finally, about the assignments. You do not *have* to do the > assignments. Nothing will be collected or graded, and there will > be no tests or anything like that with this class (except perhaps > an *optional* final exam, but I am still thinking about this). > However, I will suggest these assignments because in some fashion > or another, by doing them, it will help you be a better astral > projector. So, if you make the effort to do these assignments, it > WILL help you learn. And that's it. Like anything else in life, > the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it. > > And this is especially true for the *off-line* aspects of this > class. Many of the things you will be learning in this class will > be stuff you do in the privacy of your own house and your own mind. > It is here that your efforts are crucial. If you do the things I > suggest - keeping a journal, trying to remember your dreams, doing > the self-conditioning exercises I offer, practicing going into > trance, reading books about obes and related material - then you > are bound to get some kind of a result. It is up to you what you > put into all this. > > Now, if you do these things in your private life, and we all meet > back here on the on-line COs and on the msg boards, and exchange > what we have learned and discovered - it is in doing this that this > class will be a success for all of us and a truely enriching > experience for all of us. After all, I am NO guru and I am just as > curious about what will happen to you when you try the exercises I > offer as you are! > > Ok, next piece of business: > > 3. SHARING INFORMATION > > Right now we have 22 people who have said they will be showing up > for the course. Already, after having talked to quite a few of you > either on the forum msg boards or by e-mail, I see that everyone is > at very different levels with regard to their understanding of OBEs > and their actual ability to have OBEs. What I want to do is I > ENCOURAGE ANY OF YOU THAT HAVE ANY KIND OF EXPERIENCE WITH OBES TO > SHARE THIS WITH THOSE WHO DO NOT. > > If any of you see other class members posting questions, even if > the question is specifically addressed to me, if you have a > response to that question, then answer it! I want to encourage all > of us to WORK TOGETHER and to SHARE INFORMATION. Anything any of > you want to contribute, then please do! > > Because the people in this class are not all at the same level of > understanding and experience with OBEs, I cannot simply acted like > a guru or something. Each of us, in a sense, can be a teacher to > each other. My role in all of this is not simply as a teacher > handing out things for you to do and memorize. If anything, my > role here is to organize and coordinate our activities and > encouraging us to share experiences. In this class, I am NOT a > teacher, I am a MODERATOR. To some, I will be a teacher, if I can > teach you new things. However, for the more experienced members, I > can only offer suggestions and advice. > > So, I want to wrap up with one last point. This stuff we are about > to study is REAL. What we are going to study here - OBEs - is not > simply learning and memorizing ideas. Learning ideas is a part of > it, but by no means all of it. What I hope to accomplish with this > class is to get as many of you as is possible to experience a new > state of your consciousness. And again, the more you put into > this, the more you will get out of it. What we will discuss here > is not going to end with this class. It is my hope that this is > the *begining* of something new and valuable for all of you as you > each follow your own indivdual and unique paths in life. > > WRAP UP: > > A quick summary, since this got so long! > > 1. The first on-line CO is May 10th, 10-11PM EST in conference > room 12. > > 2. The reading assignment and homework assignments for the May 10 > CO were given. > > 3. The posting of any messages pertaining to the class will have > their title begin with AP: > > 4. I want everybody to share as much information as they can about > their experiences. > > Well, everybody, that's it! Hope this wasn't too long winded for > you all! > > Best to you all! > > Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 22:56:46 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: MidSouth Conference I was wondering how many of us will be at the MidSouth federation meeting this weekend at Lake Junaluska NC? Louis and I will be there, and at least two others from Charlotte (though not members of the electronic study group). lewis lucas? paul johnson? others?? I think I'll take my laptop and modem, and maybe last month's archive-log file etc. Perhaps we can get a half hour to discuss theos-l etc., with others who are interested, but not yet active? Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 23:11:38 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: Help w/Title On second thought, replace "discovery of" with "quest for" in the subtitle. Better? I like the changes. However, I'm not sure the word EXOTIC is quite the right selection... If I can find an alternative, I'll post it! Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 09:16:34 -0400 From: Subject: Re: testing It got to me! paddy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 17:31:45 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: title ?? Did you have a reason to NOT use ESOTERIC Initiations: ... ?? or Western Esoteric Initiates:... Western Esoteric Initiations: ... New World Esoteric Initiations: ... etc. Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:14:30 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: MidSouth Conference John, Yes, I will be there and would be interested in meeting if I can get it in. I hope to get the Stil-Light board to meet. IMPORTANT NOTE: Mary Gayle Floden, who was scheduled to give a WOMENE'S ONLY weekend workshop at Stil-Light in May has had to cancel. She had some unexpected health problems. I am interested in hearing from those who planned to attend about rescheduling or getting a substitute. One more thing...I have a new e-mail address, so please make note of it. Thanks, Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 00:12:54 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: the other three lists... a recent check shows that theos-l has nearly 50 subscribers (which is great!) however the other three lists are at ~40 subscribers. my point is that if you want to participate in EVERYthing going on, be sure to send listserv@vnet.net the subscribe requests. e.g. (use your real name -- not John Doe) subscribe theos-buds John Doe subscribe theos-news John Doe subscribe theos-roots John Doe I really recommend that EVERYONE be on Theos-News. We really use this list as the primary distribution list for news and events. If you are NOT on it, you won't get the announcements. to check what lists you are subscribed to, send the following commands (as e-mail msg text/body) to listserv@vnet.net review theos-L review theos-buds review theos-roots review theos-news The listserver will send you the current list of e-mail addresses which it is using to forward the respective received messages. If you truly do not want to participate in Theos-buds or theos-roots, do not feel you *have* to subscribe. Peace -- John Mead p.s. trying to be sure that everyone is getting what they actually want. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 14:18:11 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: title ?? According to John Mead: Did you have a reason to NOT use ESOTERIC Initiations: ... ?? or Western Esoteric Initiates:... Western Esoteric Initiations: ... New World Esoteric Initiations: ... etc. Peace -- John Mead Only that esoteric in itself would apply to any secret initiation within one's own cultural context, and that I want to emphasize that these characters were travelers who went to faraway places to immerse themselves in something foreign and romantic. Still, will mention your idea when I talk to SUNY's director about it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 13:33:15 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Titles On further thought, maybe combining "initiate" or a derivative with "journeys" will work better than using "exotic." Like "Initiate Journeys: Theosophy and the Quest for the Masters"-- or "Initiatory..." "Initiatic..." "Initiates etc. Comments? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 14:31:25 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: Titles > On further thought, maybe combining "initiate" or a > derivative with "journeys" will work better than using > "exotic." Like "Initiate Journeys: Theosophy and the Quest for > the Masters"-- or "Initiatory..." "Initiatic..." "Initiates etc. > Comments? yes: Initiate Journeys I like the that the best --- so far :-) in any case - it's your book :-) Peace John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 21:01:37 -0400 From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Don's Course Notes Don. I just downloaded your Compuserve Astral Projection Class notes (a fare-size book!) and am very impressed. Great work. This sort of thing is just what people need today. I will try to stop by on May 10 at 10pm (is that right?) for your conference. As you know, astral projection is an essential technique used in Enochian Magic. It is also the subject of my new book on pathworking the Gupta Vidya Model. If I may, I would like to mention your notes in my book, as a reference, and perhaps give a short quote (?). Anyway, I want you to know that I thouroughly enjoyed it. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 23:29:39 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Don to Jerry Schueler Jerry: Thanks for the kind comments on my OBE book. Its always an honor to get your feedback. That would be great to have you show up at the online CO on May 10. Can I announce to everybody that we have a special guest on line? However, no tripping me up!! By all means! Can I use this as a blurb if I ever get the book into *real* print?? Take care Jerry, and thanks again for the nice comments! Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 21:31:21 -0400 From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Test- Hi! Greetings theosophist from Keith Price in Houston. This is a test to see if I can send messages as well as seeing them and a question: In the Mahatama Letters to Sinnet letter X states that: 1) the one life is matter itself 2) Evil is the exageratin of the the good. 3) Our ideas are evil 4) The real evil proceeds from human itteligence Humanity is the source of evil as it seperates itself from nature. This sounds a lot like orignial sin, though of course, I'm sure it was mean't to be the exact oppostite. What are your thoughts on this provocative letter? Has anyone considered an ad hoc workshop about the use of computer to spread theosophy at Summer School this year? Namaste! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 12:22:29 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: GAME DESIGN Here's an outline that a colleague and I (Daniel Hampson) use for our workshops in "DESIGNING INSTRUCTIONAL GAMES". I thought it might give a common framework upon which we can all share ideas... I. INTRODUCTION A. Use Active Learning to... B. Develop What Skills? II. PURPOSE A. Classroom Presentation B. Jazz Up Materials C. Facilitate Memorization D. Review for Tests E. Creative Thinking III. SELECT CONTENT A. Support Purpose B. Limit Amount C. Skills, Facts, Concepts D. Define Key Points E. Determine Sequence IV. TIME CONSIDERATIONS A. Construction B. Playing C. Debriefing V. TYPE OF GAME A. Board B. Maze C. Activity D. Card E. Contest F. Puzzle G. Simulation H. Computer VI. PLAYING FIELD DESIGN A. Configuration B. Stops, Advances, Retreats C. Visuals D. Color E. Sound VII. CLUES A. Questions B. Process Steps C. Problems D. Images E. Music F. Performance VIII. CARDS (Questions & Instructions) A. Feedback B. Visual References C. Color Coding D. Review IX. RULES A. Fairness B. Skill Levels C. Objectives D. Flexibility E. Clarity X. FIELD TESTS A. Students B. Children C. Teachers We have presented this workshop to Regional and National gatherings of the American Society for Training and Development (ASTD). Those that have attended are Corporate and Institutional Training Directors and Curriculum Designers. Any of us can adapt our own interests and expertise to these basic subject areas without being overwhelmed by the larger task of putting it all together. That comes later. Using this outline will also help us see how a suite of games may interconnect, and provide a structure by which to catalog our progress. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 12:25:18 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: GAME CHARACTERS Another Workshop from Daniel Hampson that may help those interested in designing the Theosophy Game... Many years ago I stumbled across an organizational structure that helped me draw cartoon characters and symbolize their personas. I call it RATS and SNAKES and TURKEYS. It works like this: I. UNDERSTANDING INFINITY A. No Matter Where You Are B. You're always in the Middle II. THE GOALS A. To Survive B. To Find That Special Something III. THE LEVELS A. Above: Stars - To Be B. Below: Fools - Not To Be C. Center: Me, Myself and I IV. THE SUPPORTING PLAYERS A. Rat: Ugly Truth B. Snake: Pretty Lie C: Turkey: Pathetic Ignorance V. THE OFFSPRING A. RatSnake: HalfTruth B. RatTurkey: Dumb Truth C. TurkeySnake: Dumb Lie VI. THE ENVIRONMENT A. Family & Friends B. School & Work C. Hobbies & Liesure D. Mass Media E. Maslow's Hierarchy COMMENTARY: Regardless of what kind of character is created, from Politician to Celebrity to Playful Animal, there are certain visual conventions used in the Business to depict certain characteristics. These are often filled with cultural, political and sexual bias, based upon looks alone. The Rats & Snakes & Turkeys structure, however, goes beyond that, serving to avoid many such traps and getting down to the invisible core symbolism of the inner beings of most creatures. Example: Lucy tells Charlie Brown that she'll hold the football so he can run up and kick it (a nice thing to do - Star Behavior). Charlie Brown runs and kicks...Lucy pulls the ball away (a nasty thing to do - The Ugly Truth - Ratty Behavior) and Charlie Brown falls down (embarrassing - feels like a Fool). The entire situation is built upon a Promise (I'll hold the ball for you) a secret (I'll pull the ball away) and a Lie (purposeful construction of a false scenario). So we see that Lucy actually exhibits malice aforethought - Snake Behavior. She always justifies it, year after year, because it's funny, to her, to see Charlie Brown (a real Turkey) fall on his butt. It is also quite disgusting that Charlie Brown continues to believe her every time she sets up the sting (Trusting Innocence, Pathetic Ignorance and Blind Desire turned into Absolute Stupidity). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 23:02:05 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: GAME CHARACTERS 2 The Lucy & Charlie Brown example, part 2 The sociological and spiritual perspectives provide much to be discussed regarding this deceptively simple case scenario. It points out the awesome power of the person in control of the Lie (Every Liar must first know the Truth, and then know the comparitive results of Revealing the Truth and Constructing a particular Lie). This takes a lot of practice. Real Snakes must (A) move on from Turkey to Turkey, because most abruptly turn Ratty upon their enlightenment, or (B) build a sturdy self-supporting Deceit System that moves the Turkeys close to the Star Experience, without revealing that the System even exists. This keeps them coming back for more. Charlie Brown, of course, could take control of his own destiny merely by refusing to play with Lucy again, asking someone else to hold the ball for him, or making a hole in the dirt so the ball stands by itself. But then Lucy would not be there. So these countless little co-dependent scenes replay themselves until one or more players change their roles or leave. This is a rather mundane perspective. Now imagine that Lucy is a serial killer, a ruthless dictator, or the owner of a cotton plantation in the Old South. Charlie Brown may be coerced into playing his part in a variety of ways for a number of reasons, perhaps to spare any harm coming to his beloved Snoopy. Charlie then becomes deceitful in a different way, and for a different cause. These are the kinds of situations we're faced with unraveling. They are what create mysteries and intrigues. They are what inhibit human growth and shackle the spirit. They are constructed of the fine arts of Deceit. We must learn to use our tools of Truth a whole lot better. The Game, in other words, is already here. We're not creating it. We're in it. We're discovering, symbolizing, and rev ealing it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 06:45:19 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: GAME MUSIC We all live inside our own Musical Landscapes or rather, they live within us. I've begun to design my own music and have a greater appreciation now of the skills required. If I were going to pick some of my favorite music for inclusion in the Theosophy Game, I'd go immediately with the Moody Blues, and some of the band members' solo albums, followed by Alan Parsons and Robin Trower. Then there are the Chants and New Age works from Don Campbell and some of his collaborators. Music as Healer. INXS was the first band to have a game released built around one of their songs. There are more now. Peter Gabriel has an entire interactive CD-Rom, which is the direction I'm headed. I've also designed my own instruments which create patterns of sounds that can't be duplicated on chromatic instruments. So I could make those available. Another thought is the historical music of our old Theosophists, themselves. They were world travelers. They must have come across some special pieces they held dear. What were they? Daniel Hampson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:18:31 -0400 From: "Judy A. Cilcain" Subject: Re: testing In message <199404292139.OAA22429@harvey.qualcomm.com> writes: > Just a test... if this gets there pls let me know. > > Thank you, Message received. Judy Judy A. Cilcain Office of the Vice President for Arts, Sciences, and Engineering University of Minnesota 12 Morrill Hall Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455 612, 626-0362 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 15:25:44 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Beavis, Butt-Head & Blavatsky This weekend I went to Norfolk, and there saw a friend who swears to me that there is a current episode of Beavis and Butt-Head entitled "Madame Blavatsky." He says she is a generic gypsy fortune-teller type who receives a visit from the heroes. Apparently MTV replays the same episodes for a week or so, so I'll be watching for it. Can anyone confirm this story? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 15:54:18 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Birthday of Book For those into astrology, I welcome comments on the birthchart of The Masters Revealed, erected for publication date of July 22 and using 9 AM as time. Place is Ann Arbor, MI, where printer is. The Sun is at 29'35" Cancer, in the 11th. The Moon at 26'45 Capricorn (5th house) is conjunct Uranus and Neptune at 24'08" and 21'45" respectively. Pluto sextiles all that from Scorpio. There is a grand trine in water between Mercury in Cancer, Jupiter in Scorpio and Saturn in Pisces. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 19:00:30 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: comment on book excerpts This is by Brenda. What really scares me about Narayan's book is his absorption in the world of mythology. Let's look at it this way. He was born fourth sub-race, lived with first sub-race Hindus, formed workable concepts along the lines of the third sub-race Greeks, thereby gaining considerable respect for the fifth sub-race European (German) philosophers (not apparent in excerpts but evident in his book) and with a 1st, 3rd, and 5th background praises the American (6th sub-race) ideals. Is this possible in one lifetime? What must happen to arouse his interest in the 7th sub-race? In one of AAB's diagrams she depicts the 1st, 2nd, and 7th rays at the center with the remaining four rays in a circumferential relationship. I thought this was rather related to what I had learned in THE SECRET DOCTRINE because when reading of the onset of the fifth root race, I understood that these were the three earliest sub-races to exist. A cradle of the seventh (Chaldean), perhaps an offshoot of the 4th race 7th sub-race, and the Egyptian (2nd sub-race) alongside the Hindus in India (1st sub-race). One thing I will always equate with the 7th sub-race (if it even exists today in some minor form as Judaism) is monotheism. The existence of other gods is contrary to the furtherance of its aims. One God is not a fanciful result, it is a premise. Why can't someone wake Narayan up? Is he too far gone? The gods that interacted with mankind during the third root race may only be fellow solar beings as the human race develops to its fullest potential. Gods of yesteryear didn't transform. We did. Mythology reminds me of how in Biblical history worshippers of one god would do battle with worshippers of another god. While mythology was investigated as a matter worthy of study by many Europeans, so was war, aggression, conquering an acceptable practice within their few thousand-year period of written history. I'd be more than happy to ignore mythology if it meant an end to war, but I really don't believe that such a strong influence within the 5th Root Race could ever be revised or denied. Is it possible for gods themselves to evolve enough so that any interaction they have with us would be more peaceful? Or is evolution only on the human side of the question? Has man evolved enough to make human-god interaction peaceful? (I'm just reminiscing of the Greek and Roman myths I know and trying to relate these fictional accounts of life to what might have existed - in reality - during the third root race.) You say that great initiates are provable or disprovable by looking at the concrete examples of their lives or the record of their lives. Is this associated with some form of knowledge being given to the? Would Jesus qualify? Is it provable that messages received from Mohammed (verses in THE KORAN) are from the same ONE GOD known by Jesus? Is it because of people with little faith, who could only be persuaded to accept one teaching, not both, that a separatist consciousness between Christians and Muslims arose in the first place? Was this the type of occurrence that first allowed mythology to exist: one person's consciousness-raising experience is contradicted by another's? As much as I like Narayan and appreciate his level of consciousness as he has written it down in the book, shouldn't someone insist that mythology be kept in its place and not ever elevated again to a position of superiority within the human life? Do I (or we) really have to reach back this far in our history (even as far as the 3rd root race) to encourage the threads of early human life to continue to the present time and to allow them to grow stronger until they become of major importance? By becoming temporarily 3rd root race in our imagining, do we better project ourselves in line with the objects of the 5th root race? Or, like H.P.B. has declared in regard to actual information regarding the 1st and 2nd root races, should the 3rd root race, too, be lost to mankind, just to allow us to go forward? As I didn't find any comments on Narayan's book, I had to present my own, rather than let his work stand without question. Thanks for listening. On a different note: I liked Don's paper about all the teachings being present in the Hindu writings. It's all on paper but not actualized! A great plan which needs working out! And then into incarnation came the souls who needed experience in order that life's laws could become their very being, their very existence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 04:29:43 -0400 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: THE DAYS FOR SPIRITUAL GROWTH 21.-22.5.1994 Oulu, Finland Saturday 21.5. 10.00 Opening Address, Tapio H{rk|nen 10.10 The Subconscious and Dreams, Pekka Suominen 11.30 Music 12.30 Are Humanoids Our Brothers?, Tapani Koivula 14,00 Music 14.15 The Alternative Science of Medicine in Finland, Tapani Kuningas 16.00 Karma, the Law of Cause and Effect, Tapio H{rk|nen 17.00 Mysticism and Philosophy, Matti Luoma 18.00 Closing Words, Tapio H{rk|nen Sunday 22.5. 10.00 Opening Address, Tapio H{rk|nen 10.10 Theosophical Effect on the Progress of Humanity, Hannu Vienonen 11.15 Music 11.30 Spiritual Healing, Pekka Suominen 13.45 Music 14.00 Astrology as a Spiritual Guide, Marja-Liisa Niemi-Mattila 16:00 Kalevala, the Finnish National Epic, Tapio R{tt-Seule 17.00 The Situation in Tibet, Tauno Auer 18.00 Closing Words, Tapio H{rk|nen Photography Exhibition: The Invincible Tibetans, Paulius Normantas Knowledge * Wisdom * Peace * Brotherhood More information: The Organizer, Tapio H{rk|nen tel. (int)-358-81-5307967 or via e-mail akikorho@paju.oulu.fi Aki Korhonen From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 11:22:34 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Test- Hi! Hi Keith, Welcome to the Internet discussion group. Your idea for a workshop on use of the Internet for the spread of theosophy at summer school this year is probably to late for this year's conference, but still should be sent to John Algeo for consideration as a separate weekend workshop at Olcott. Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 11:23:09 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Beavis, Butt-Head & Blavatsky No way! I'll watch for it too. Maybe someone could tape the show for a while, so if it is there it could be shared with others who don't catch it. Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 11:34:40 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Conference in Finland Great to see some international news on this international network! How goes the work in Finland? Would you be interested in news about activities in Atlanta, GA site of the 96 Summer Olympics? Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 05:15:21 -0400 From: val@netcom.com (Dewey Val Schorre) Subject: To Don regarding OOBE class I was in your classroom for the first hour last night. Don't know how long it went on after that. I like the idea of the class. Having a discussion between you and people reading your book will be valuable. On the other hand, I think I will wind up cutting class and reading the transcripts that John Mead posts. This was the first time I had been in a session where everyone types messages to each other, and found it much too slow. I've tried your method of going into a trance, and will keep trying. So far I have either kept myself awake or fallen asleep. The results with lucid dreaming are better. Here's what I got so far. ----- Monday May 2, 1994 Dream (almost lucid) I have difficulty reading a menu and know that I must be dreaming. Get excited about this being the lucid dream that I have been waiting for and wake up. Friday May 6, 1994 Lucid Dream Someone at work asks if I plan to work full time after my vacation to England in the fall. I reply that no I'm completely retired in the physical world and that I only continue to work when I'm in the dream world. Then I do a double take, realizing this must be a lucid dream. I grab the shoulder of a young lady next to me, explaining that I don't want to fade away. She replies, "Well, that's a new line." I walk downstairs and out the front door. I am no longer at work but on a playground. The children are so noisy that I go back into the school. By this time I am no longer lucid. Inside the building there is a strange piece playground equipment. It has concentric spheres made of molded brass, and when you get inside you can orient yourself in any direction, even upside down. There are several of these and they move in opposite directions. There are windows from the hallway into a large room, which I am told is the men's reading room, but now it is unisex. I become lucid again and decide to try to fly, but feel heavy and know it won't be easy. I am in a department store and one of the clerks ask if I would like a copy of the store regulations. She does not mention anything about flying being against the regulations, and I know that she will be shocked if I just shoot up into the air. I wake up. ----- I suppose I was a bit impolite, grabbing the young lady's shoulder. I notice that you ask permission before holding onto someone, but I was afraid there wasn't time for that. Can you keep your lockmold by just concentrating on someone, without physically (I mean astrally) touching them? Is it always difficult to read on the astral plane? Is it difficult to sketch a scene while on the astral plane? If one could make a sketch while there, it would fix the details in one's mind so that the same sketch could be made when waking up. I have a feeling that sketching will present a problem. There seem to be certain things on the astral plane that you are suppose to observe and other things you aren't suppose to know about. You say that people on the astral plane appear stupid. Isn't this related to the fact that you are interregating them and trying to get information your aren't suppose to find out. If you just observe beings on the astral plane, can you see any lack of inteligence in their behaviour? I'll look forward to reading the transcript and may try to follow the threads in the new age forum. Val From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 17:55:55 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Don to Val about obe class Hi Val! Thanks for writing. I'm a bit confused tho: But you send your letter to me via Theos-buds. Are you also a compuserve member? If so, I don't hink I have your CS address. That's a good idea. Pesoanlly, I thought the CO was very unorganized. I tried my best to handle questions, but there was simply no way I could answer any but the simplest questions adequately. i am way more comfortable with responding by mail. < I have difficulty reading a menu and know that I must be dreaming. Get excited about this being the lucid dream that I have been waiting for and wake up.> Very good! Don't worry about waking. That is normal first few times. < I walk downstairs and out the front door. I am no longer at work but on a playground> you "blipped"! Val you do NOT have to first ask permision to hold onto someone to stabilize your lockmold! Sometimes I do and some times I don't. It depends on how desperate of a situation it is. And YES, you need to "physically" hold onto them. Concentrating will not do it. It is the sense of touch that hepls stabilize your lockmold and keep you focused in the dream world. I have found it to be. Some people claim they can read fine. I can read fine only when I am dreaming, but when I am lucid I cannot read. It just looks like a blur and when I do get it in focus and read something, it blurs right up again, and if I do refocus, it usually says something different! This is a very good ideas Val. I will remeber this the next time I am out-of-body and try it as an aid to remembering. It's a great idea and I don't see why it wouldn't work. let me know if you do this! i figure, hell, if you can remember it once you are back here in the physical plane, then that's all there is to it. I don't think there is anything special going on with what you can or cannot remeber about your astral travels. Its all up to you in terms of what you can percieve and remember. I doubt it, Val. Why would someones name, even just their first name, be taboo information? No, I don't think it is anything like this. I think what happens is that there is something going on that affects peoples memories that make them "stupid" (this really isn't even a fair word to use in this context). What I mean is think of how your mind works in a normal dream. in a normal dream we are basically "stupid" too. There is something going on here, no question, but I don't think it has to do with forbidden information, I think it has to do with how our minds operate over there as opposed to how they operate over here. No, I see them caught up in somekind of habitual behavior. What I don't see is people over there being *self-reflective*, which is the essence of being lucid. Again, "stupid" is the wrong term. A better term is "unlucid" or "not self-reflective". I'll look forward to hearing of your continued sucsesses! Thanks for sharing your experiences Val, they were very good. you are doing very good. I'll await your reply. Best to you, Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 09:44:43 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Birthday of Book Hi, this is also the date the last fragment of comet will impact Jupiter Paddy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 15:24:17 -0400 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: Re: Conference in Finland Hello Dear Lewis, and all friends out there... Thank you, for your comments! You asked about our work in Finland... The main public work is to deliver lectures. In Oulu(100 000 inhabitant town at the centre of Finland) we have a one public lecture per month. The other side is studying Theosophy. We have c. twice a month a reading circle, where we study for example some book. Two times per month we gather together to discuss some topics. At Oulu we also quite recently got our own TS-library, wich has since been a meeting place, and a room for informal conversations. At Helsinki, our capital, there is a lot more Theosophical activities, something for almost everyday, there is e.g. a public lecture every Sunday. We have an own national theosophical education center in southern Finland, there is naturally kept different kinds of seminars, confrences and also just refreshment. Theosophical organization has also published and translated a lot of Theosophical literature in finnish. If I answer your question literally; Then I must say that the work and working goes very bad in general, since we have very bad economic period of depression and unemployment. > Would you be interested in news about > activities in Atlanta, GA site of the 96 Summer Olympics? Sure, finnish people are sport-crazy! Peace to all Creatures, Aki From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 09:11:18 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Alice Cleather Have just decided to end my work in progress with a section on Alice Cleather, HPB's Inner Group pupil who rejected both T.S.'s and at age 82 traveled across the Tibetan plateau to meet the Panchen Lama (whom she had formerly met in Beijing). Turns out she was also the first Westerner to take pansil at Bodh Gaya, and her longest and best book originated as a series of articles for the Maha Bodhi Journal, edited by Dharmapala, who occupies the first quarter of part 3, of which Alice will be the end. Any stories about her, her colleague Basil Crump or son Gordon, that I won't have found in standard sources are most welcome. Jerry H-E, I bet you know a lot about this one. Also any comments about Cleather's historical significance are invited. Namaste y'all From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 22:47:07 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: oobe class I'm forwarding don's letter about his second Conference class on Compuserve Info. Systems (CIS) the CO which took place on tuesday May 10th is now available in the Theos-buds listserver archives, as well as from ftp (vnet.net) at pub/theos-l I decided to NOT e-mail it out on Theos-buds due to it's size (~37KB) Peace -- John Mead p.s. to retrieve the CO log file send to listserv@vnet.net an e-mail message with body/text of get theos-buds cis_obe1.txt ======================================================== ****E-MAIL ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THE NEW AGE FORUM OOBE CLASS****** **********Questions and the Online CO*************** Hi everyone: This is a reminder kind of thing for the second CO. The 2nd CO will be Tuesday the 17th of May, from 10-11PM The assignment I have in the schedule is: 2. CO2: Q&A on scientific ideas about OOBEs/LDs. Q&A on comparing scientific and occult ideas. READING ASSIGNMENT: AP_02.TXT/AP_03.TXT HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT: ???? Now, I'd like to share my thoughts and reactions with you all to the first CO. Frankly, I wasn't too happy with it. Actually, I was quite overwhelmed with some of the questions I got. What hit me during the middle of the CO was that the online conference format is not very good for answering your questions. There's simply not the time to give adequate answers to your questions. A few of the questions could be answered ok, but others were simply too involved to give the attention that they needed. One of the things that came up was the idea of what role fear plays in these OBEs, and how one can protect themselves during an OBE. There are notions out there about how entities can take over your body, or astral monsters can attack you and things like this, and people expressed concern about this. And the issue came up about how your emotional state affects your attempts to have OBEs. Now, these are really serious questions that deserve really serious and well thought out answers. And what makes answering questions like this even more difficult is that there is NO one right answer. The answers to these kinds of questions DEPEND ON WHERE YOU ARE AT IN YOUR LIFE AS AN INDIVIDUAL. There are no simple, generic pat answers. The answers to these kinds of concerns are going to be different for each of you. So, because of this, I frankly don't know what to do with the COs at this point. Not only was I getting sensitive and difficult questions, but the questions that were being asked reflected the fact that some people know more about OBEs than others. I got some very esoteric questions side by side with basic questions. All of this adds up to making me uncomfortable with the CO part of the class. What is necessary here for each of you to learn how to project is to assess where each of you stands individually. In other words, each one of you requires a tailor-made program for developing the skills necessary to have an OBE. I believe I have enough experience with OBEs to accomplish this for you. For beginners I can suggest things to get you started. For intermediate levels students, I can suggest exercises to enhance your skills. For advanced students, we can share what we know and I can learn from you as much as you can learn from me. So, my feeling at this point is that this class will be the most effective if you post questions in the Dreams section message board or send me e-mail. I will continue to use the CO to stress what points I feel are important for that week's reading assignment. However, I do not realistically think I can address the questions you people are raising at the online CO. What we can do during the CO is see what issues come up and focus on these throughout the week on the message boards where we can discuss the issues with the depth they require. In other words, don't come to the COs expecting to get full answers to the questions you may have. It just isn't going to happen, as I learned during the first CO. So, again, it looks like the online CO is going to serve two purposes: 1. for me to stress important aspects of that week's reading assignment, and 2. to raise issues that we can discuss on the message board during the week. I want all of you to appreciate that the main part of this class involves reading the notes I wrote. These notes will provide you with the background information and the techniques you need to have OBEs Once you read the notes, then it's up to you how far you want to practice the techniques I give. The next important thing I can do is answer your questions. Again, this is not going to happen effectively at the online COs. As you read and get questions, post these on the message board or send me e-mail if you want your concerns to be private. And finally, the online COs are going to serve as a place where we can raise concerns that we will focus on throughout the rest of the week. I want to make clear to you all that I am very sincere in my desire to share with you what I know about having OBEs I am acutely sensitive to your individual needs. Again, I can't stress enough that this OBE stuff is very REAL, and because it is, it is serious. I'm not playing any games here. I sincerely believe that those of you who want to learn to have OBEs can. But again, each of you is at a different point in life, and this point you are at completely determines what you need to learn or do to have OBEs So, we have to take things on a person by person basis. There is no other way to be effective. So, this is all I have to say at this point. If any of you have comments or suggestions about what I said above, please share them with me. Again, the goal of this class is that those of you who want to learn to astral project will be able to. Thanks, everybody for all your input so far. Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 00:01:19 -0400 From: "Ronald A. Banister" <70402.2301@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Alice Cleather Paul, I read your email about Cleather and it rang a bell somewhere. A while back I was browsing in a used-book store in Chapel Hill, North Carolina and came across a bound book of old theosophical articles. One is "H. P. Blavatsky A Great Betrayal" by Alice Leighton Cleather. It's dated 1922 and is 95 pages long. Are you familiar with it? Ron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 08:44:13 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Alice Cleather According to Ronald A. Banister: > > Paul, > > I read your email about Cleather and it rang a bell somewhere. A > while back I was browsing in a used-book store in Chapel Hill, > North Carolina and came across a bound book of old theosophical > articles. One is "H. P. Blavatsky A Great Betrayal" by Alice > Leighton Cleather. It's dated 1922 and is 95 pages long. Are you > familiar with it? > > > Ron > > >Yes, thanks, I have it and her two other books. What I didn't remember until rereading them was that the longest of the three was published as articles by Dharmapala, another of my characters. Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 08:59:05 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: All-time Worst Review The April issue of Protogonos, Mark Jaqua's twelve-page self-published quarterly, has a pretty impressive piece of work. Here are the highlights: Paul Johnson's Book on the Masters In Search of the Masters Behind the Occult Myth (sic) has been out for about 3 1/2 years and is a copiously researched attempt to prove that the various Masters behind the founding of the Theosophical Society were well-known historical personages. The book is just plain crazy to put it in simple language. It is like the author gets what seems to be a good idea-- that the Masters were secular persons one could discover the identity of (sic) in historical records-- and then "every trick in the book" is used to try to MAKE this assumption be true or to overpower, confuse, doubletalk and buffoon [?] the readership into agreeing...a lot of research work that has been done here, but in a vain and obstinate cause. There simply is not enough secular information on the adepts in Theosophical literature to prove a secular identity one way or the other. Johnson apparrently [sic] approves of his picture of Blavatsky's goals...while claiming her means were all fraud and deceit...such fraud was directly contrary to the whole philosophy promoted by Blavatsky and the adepts...Statements by Blavatsky or others are seen as " falsehoods" or "blinds" when they contradict his omnipresent [?] view of things...this reviewer says that Mr. Johnson is the crackpot and deceiver and if he had his unconscious wish would destroy the whole substance of Theosophical teachings for the sake of his ego and to "make a name for himself" through theories insufficient by any standard of adequate reason and evidence. Becoming a scholarly hero really is the reason for this book, as there is not enough here by any stretch of the imagination to make it a purposeful and honest historical work. If there is far short of enough evidence here to support the thesis-- what can be the purpose of the book other than ego (underlined). Mr. Johnson would say that he is "only presenting a theory" as a way out of his piccadillo [sic-??] of aberrant and inconsistent reasoning and method in his presentation...The only consistency in Mr. Johnson's book is his method of using whatever cleverness necessary to momentarily support his errant ego and theories...Unless one can get a glimpse once in awhile of the world beyon the bare-bones scholarly world of lower manas, he doesn't have a chance of perceiving the genuine altruistic and spiritual purpose behind the Theosophical effort. In Search of the Masters Behind the Occult Myth is a totally lower-manas book and a big maya... Comments are invited-- PJ My own comment is brief-- if this is what higher manas is like in its response to someone else's lower manas, then what is it higher in? Meanness? Spelling errors? Evasion of any discussion of the thesis or evidence? The good thing about this awful review is that it frees me from worrying about my worst ever review as a future occurrence! Come what may, nothing can top this. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 16:41:12 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: spiritual truth vs historical truth hi -- I'm forwarding this from the alt.religion.eckankar discussions.... this puts Paul's post in an appropriate context... Peace -- john mead (i probably should have asked paul fist before posting... oh well) > To: jem > Subject: (fwd) Spiritual Truth and Historical Truth > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar > From: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) > Subject: Spiritual Truth and Historical Truth > > There seems to be a serious confusion over the relationship > between spiritual truth and historical truth. Historical truth > is not a substitute for or superior to spiritual truth; no one > can be presumed to be spiritually aware or wise just because he > or she is historically accurate and has done good research. > ON THE OTHER HAND it is completely unfair to refuse to consider > historical research on its own merits because you feel the > author to be spiritually unqualified to investigate the subject. > > I just got my worst review of all time from a true believing > Theosophist, and it sounds so much like some things said here > about David Lane that I will repost it later to show how the > sectarian mind works regardless of the sect in question. But > please try to understand that-- although spiritual truth does > not DEPEND on historical truth for its value, it cannot > CONFLICT with historical truth. Therefore, no amount of > "spiritual" abuse of the messengers has any relevance to the > validity of the historical facts conveyed by them. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 10:59:23 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Don to John: Spiritual and historical truth John: Re: the posting spiritual truth verses historical truth, it sounds like Paul was upset by his bad review. This is definately a part of writing that anyone making things public needs to get used to. Still, i don't know about his comments putting spiritual and historical thinking opposite each other. Spirtual insight will give one a great advantage in studying history. And history always illuminates any issue, for all issues have a history. Of course, when one is studying history one has to always be careful for distortions that arise with time (i.e. the phone game that kids play). But, taking such factors into account, historical understanding is invaluable. Furthermore, spirtual truth doesn not get caught up in conflicts and dualisms as does the lower mind of rationality. So, it seems kind of silly comapring spirtual insight to historical understanding as they each stem from very different levels of comprehnsion. Just wanted to say this. Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 05:01:50 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Comments on Paul Johnson's Book This is by Eldon Tucker. ---- Comments on Paul Johnson's Book This is some comments on the quotation from Mark Jaqua's *Protogonos* and the responses that have come out recently. I sense anger and a tendency to come to harsh judgment on both sides of the discussion. Mark calls the book "just plain crazy," which is obviously a judgment on his part, obviously a statement of opinion. There are two points that could be discussed. This is apart from all the talk where he dismisses Paul's book as an attack on Theosophy. One is that "There simply is not enough secular information on the adepts in Theosophical literature to prove a secular identity one way or the other." This sounds similar to the statement by Jerry Hejka-Ekins made earlier where Jerry wonders if Paul is too quick to come to conclusions in his book, rather than just presenting his historic research. The other is regarding the use of the terms *falsehoods* and *blinds,* about times when Blavatsky may have sought to concealed information that she did not want to publicly state. We need to be careful when we use terms that are subject to misunderstanding, and quick to explain what we mean when we are misunderstood. Would we say that Jesus *lied* to the public, because of speaking to them in parables, and that Jesus only told the truth to a few? If someone shouts at you in anger, do you shout back in rage or do you let it pass you by, like water off a duck's back? What is the proper response? Can we respond to that of value in what comes from the other, or do we contemplate and respond to perceived meanness? I would not be too critical of spelling or grammar errors. Especially on the internet, we see much hastily written materials. We can afford to forgive others when then make writing mistakes, especially if they do not have word processors with spelling and grammar checkers. Putting in "sic" to point out errors, and saying the review is so awful that nothing can top it is an angry response. When something makes me angry, the amount of time that I take to dwell on, then to forget it, before I respond, decides my response. If I response soon, and I'm really mad, I can use simple language that despite the matter of fact language conveys such anger that it'd turn someone's face red simply to read it. But if I wait, and respond several days later--or perhaps a week or two later if it's something big--I can write clearly. The anger is then gone and I can respond with appropriate mental clarity and kindness. If there are dark feelings, it's good that there is a discussion and the air is cleared. Any unspoken doubts or suspi- cions should be articulated. The communication is good. With the book, I cannot comment, since I have not seen a copy of it. I would say that if there is a clear distinction between facts and conclusions that the book would be ok. This also assumes, of course, that all facts uncovered are presented, and that the book is not written with a slant intended to dispose its readers to a desired opinion. In a conflict, there are two rules that I find helpful: 1. Never respond head on, even if you have overwhelming power, because nothing is gained by the destruction of the other. 2. Do not respond in anger when attacked, but undermine the basis for the attack in a friendly way. Do not require the opponent to lose face. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 05:02:15 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Historic and Spiritual Truth This is by Eldon Tucker. ---- Historic and Spiritual Truth We read of historic truth, and will often find a growing difference between the literal facts, as we can glean from historic records, and the myths and grand stories we have of great people of bygone ages. Is there really a distinction between historic and spiritual truth? Is the past an objective reality, or does it only exist as effects in the present? As time moves on, the distant past becomes less real. The literal facts and experiences of an event long ago eventually become recycled as more recent memories or the stuff of what is happening now. We could not continue to exist if we could not forget, really forget, permanently forget, and move on. There is a purpose, for instance, in our forgetting the details of previous lifetimes on the earth. The energy invested in events of the past, in the images of things that have happened and are no more, needs to be freed. The images need to be broken and die. This energy is needed to animate new forms in our lives. Do not dwell in pride over great accom- plishments of the past. This prevents you from doing your next great work. Or consider a murderer, unable to heal himself and move on until he can break free of his dreadful contemplation and reliving of the horrid crime! The historic facts are but one aspect of an event. There are the effects of the other principles (astral through Atman) too. These effects of the past change or transform as we grow and change. They are not static. People take on mythic proportion over time. This is not because unreality sets in. The higher truths sought expression in someone's life. These truths may have only partially come out in their lifetime. In the years following their physical deaths, the effects continue, and history has a chance to *correct itself.* The higher truths still have an effect on us and continue to come out, altering us in the present and altering our appreciation of the person in the past. History literally changes itself as inner forces behind the historic people and events change us and our experience of it. Certain seemingly ordinary people can be elevated to mythic proportion over time because of continued effects on us from causes that originated while they were alive. Others with a mixture of good and evil could be redeemed. This might happen as benefits of the good deeds continue to help while the evil deeds are no longer seen or felt. In once sense history in written in stone, forever unchanging. In another sense, history is a living, dynamic, changing influence, an integral part of our lives. Impermanence is the keynote of life. Failure to accept the impermanence of life is the primary cause of suffering. Most of us accept the impermanence of the future, rejecting a literal sense of predestiny. Some people embrace the impermanent nature of the present; they see the great Emptiness in outer life. How many of us, though, embrace the impermanence of the past as well? A sense of dynamic past, both in one's private life and one's relationship with the outer world, is an important part of the spiritual path. It does not deny those scraps of paper, once written, that tells us of the thoughts of a day long gone. It instead frees us to fashion our minds and hearts according to the spiritual will. We are freed to move on in life and not be enchained by the personal baggage that we carry with us. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 05:02:48 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: No Dreamworld This is by Eldon Tucker. ---- No Dreamworld In reading the discussion group the past few months, it seems that the talk is one-sided. One theosophical viewpoint predomi- nates. Much goes unsaid as the Pasadena, Point Loma, and ULT subscribers read and may be keeping their thoughts to themselves. There are many unspoken assumptions behind the discussions. They may be considered beyond question. But are they? In reading the talk about astral experiences, I am reminded of born-again Christians. When I hear people talking of their renewed personal relationships with Jesus, I see them making many assumptions regarding Jesus and Christianity and the makeup of the world. I risk their outrage when I raise my doubts about some of their key ideas. Do I comment or remain silent? My training in Theosophy leads me to oppose materialism, selfishness, and false belief, no matter however sincerely held. I feel responsible for sharing the Teachings with whomever is responsive to their effects. I also feel responsible for helping others in their spiritual growth, to the extent allowed by circumstances in my life. The purpose of the Teachings is to draw people away from a preoccupation with the material world, and from the illusory psychical nature as well, and to develop and awaken their spiritu- al-intellectual natures. Some theosophical books read too easily. They leave one nothing to ponder. The books may even sound like a psychical travelogue. These books make the reader feel that there is nothing more to the philosophy, that the next step is to develop paranormal powers and visit other planes. Other books touch on the actual Mysteries. They stir a deeper part of us. These books awaken our inner Teacher. When we find books that seem empty or meaningless, that seem to contain philosophical hair-splitting, we're either not reading the right authors or not ready yet to see what is there. The next step in our spiritual evolution is to awaken our higher mind, a spiritual-intellectual faculty. The higher mind is completely above and independent of our material and psychical natures. It is a faculty of consciousness, not an extension of any of our senses, like hearing or sight, on this or other planes. There is the astral light, which surrounds our earth. It is the storehouse of nature. The astral light is not an objective world; it is a world of illusions. There are other objective worlds, the globes of our planetary chain, but we do not visit them in dreams. A visit to the other globes is in deep sleep, totally unrelated to the dream state. An astral experience is inherently unstable because it is self-created. We populate the environment about us, giving shapes, colors, characterizations based upon the content of our own mind. We do not interact with others, except perhaps telepathically; there is no interaction in person. The continuous stream of events that we see in a dream follows the stream of thought in our own minds. There is a continuous mental dialog, a narrative voice. This voice brings with it the dramatization of the content of our consciousness. This is what we see in the astral light. A respected Jungian psychologist in San Diego, Robert Johnson, once said that the stream of consciousness that we experience in dreams is continuous, and is always happening, even when we are awake. I'm inclined to agree with him. When we experience a lucid dream, or when things seem less chaotic in a dream, we are really controlling our minds, and the dramatization of our conscious content in the astral light, for the moment, is less confused. The content of a dream is based upon our own beliefs and training. It depends upon what thought currents that we have put ourselves in touch with. A Christian could train himself to experience a heaven world with Jesus and angels. A Tibetan Buddhist could train himself to experience the Bardo. And a Spiritualist could, with practice, come to see his Summerland (aka astral plane). Collective beliefs form mirages in the astral light, illusory "places" that believers could experience. Each such place would have its own apparent laws and types of experience. We are correct to consider this more alike many people watching the same movie on TV than many people traveling to the same distant land. Depending upon which thought current someone is in touch with, one will find the appropriate "place" to visit. But these are not places, but collective hallucinations. In dream experiences, we have people interacting with collective thoughtforms. No one is coming into existence on another objective plane. The experiences are self-created. A good example involves a former theosophical writer. He wrote extensively of his out of the body experiences. A friend of this writer died, someone that the writer claimed to work with on the inner planes regularly. The writer could not tell, out of his body, that his friend had died, and subsequently wrote him a letter, thinking him still alive. This is because, I think, he never really met his friend while in the dream state, but interacted with his own dream image of the friend. My assumption might be countered. Someone may say that there is certain knowledge shared between people that they could not have possibly known while awake, that had to happen when they met while asleep. But I'd reply that those fragments of knowledge exchanged were instances of thought transference, and not due to meeting others in person in a dreamworld. If what I am writing about sounds a bit strange, or if you feel a quick, impassioned need to tell me how wrong I am, you might stop a moment, and remember that there are more than one worldview that comes under the banner of Theosophy, and that not everyone takes your basic assumptions for granted. I do not think I'm alone, when I write, but perhaps the first to break a silence and say something different. There is a karmic responsibility to others for whatever that we teach them, whether it is high philosophy or occult science. It is important to go with caution when we are uncertain about what we are doing. But we must also act when it is time, and do what we feel is right. Part of theosophical work--as I've learned it--is to speak out against the teaching of the occult arts, to speak out against psychical development. The acceptance and approval of seeking powers are not universal in theosophical circles. Each person should decide for himself, but should make an informed decision. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 09:28:32 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Don to John: Spiritual and historical truth According to Donald DeGracia: > > John: > Re: the posting spiritual truth verses historical truth, it sounds > like Paul was upset by his bad review. This is definately a part of > writing that anyone making things public needs to get used to. > Still, i don't know about his comments putting spiritual and > historical thinking opposite each other. Spirtual insight will give > one a great advantage in studying history. And history always > illuminates any isee, for all issues have a history. Of course, when > one is studying history one has to always be careful for distortions > that arise with time (i.e. the phone game that kids play). But, > taking such factors into account, historical understanding is > invaluable. > Furthermore, spirtual truth doesn not get caught up in conflicts and > dualisms as does the lower mind of rationality. So, it seems kind of > silly comapring spirtual insight to historical understanding as they > each stem from very different levels of comprehnsion. > Just wanted to say this. > > Don > > About being upset-- yes, but not because the review was bad. No amount of criticism of my research or writing would have been as disturbing as the kind of personal attack made by MJ. Because his resistance is so high to the facts uncovered by my research, his strategy to avoid thinking through their implications is to "blame the messenger." This goes so far as to impute fiendish manipulation of the evidence on behalf of an unconscious wish to destroy Theosophy. No one who knew me as I was writing the book would give any credence to this accusation. But no matter who presented this evidence, or how, the facts speak for themselves. About comparing the two kinds of truth-- this comment seems to miss the point I was making. People committed to spiritual movements are notoriously unwilling to examine the history of those movements objectively. This is because they perceive historical truth as opposed to spiritual truth; my whole point was that the two are not indeed opposed, but complementary. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 10:11:31 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: Don to John: Spiritual and historical truth > About being upset-- yes, but not because the review was bad. > No amount of criticism of my research or writing would have > been as disturbing as the kind of personal attack made by MJ. > About comparing the two kinds of truth-- this comment seems > to miss the point > I was making. People committed to spiritual movements are > notoriously unwilling to examine the history of those movements > objectively. This is because they perceive historical truth as > opposed to spiritual truth; my whole point was that the two are > not indeed opposed, but complementary. > I recall an afro-american Physician in Grinnell IA who had his medical office attacked by vandals in the night ... "Nigger go home" etc. painted on his windows of business. rather than clening it up immediately..... He left it up for about a month so the whole town could see it and realize fully what type of reality existed in the town. I considered the review irrelevent to the book, but very informative about the reviewer. also ... The historical truth (NOT corrupted historical-untruth) must agreee and support the spiritual truth. rather like expecting an oobe to somehow relate to the physical plane to justify that it was not a true figment of imagination! Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 11:37:27 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: No Dreamworld > to consider this more alike many people watching the same movie on > TV than many people traveling to the same distant land. Depending > upon which thought current someone is in touch with, one will find > the appropriate "place" to visit. But these are not places, but > collective hallucinations. > In dream experiences, we have people interacting with > collective thoughtforms. No one is coming into existence on another > objective plane. The experiences are self-created. A good example > involves a former theosophical writer. He wrote extensively of his > out of the body experiences. A friend of this writer died, someone > that the writer claimed to work with on the inner planes regularly. > The writer could not tell, out of his body, that his friend had > died, and subsequently wrote him a letter, thinking him still > alive. This is because, I think, he never really met his friend > while in the dream state, but interacted with his own dream image > of the friend. > My assumption might be countered. Someone may say that there > is certain knowledge shared between people that they could not have > possibly known while awake, that had to happen when they met while > asleep. But I'd reply that those fragments of knowledge exchanged > were instances of thought transference, and not due to meeting > others in person in a dreamworld. I asked a similar question in the OOBE CO, which don could not answer due to the limitations of the format. It is a fact that that this happens, but does it mean that it is ALWAYS unreal? (perhaps you could move this discussion to theos-buds and we can get Don involved!) > There is a karmic responsibility to others for whatever that > we teach them, whether it is high philosophy or occult science. It > is important to go with caution when we are uncertain about what we > are doing. But we must also act when it is time, and do what we > Part of theosophical work--as I've learned it--is to > speak out against the teaching of the occult arts, to speak out > against psychical development. The acceptance and approval of > seeking powers are not universal in theosophical circles. Each > person should decide for himself, but should make an informed > decision. this bothers me too..... Blavatsky requested an oath be taken before instruction to assure that the teachings would NOT be used destructively (I could find this in Key to Theos. if needed). apparantly to shift the Karma ONTO the student where it belongs. Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 22:02:43 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: love or money? This is by Brenda Tucker. I think what Paul Johnson is feeling is that rather than looking at what he has said in detail in his book, IN SEARCH OF THE MASTERS BEHIND THE OCCULT MYTH, people are summarizing his work and basing their reaction to a historical treatment of theosophical "initiates." Any historical treatment of the initiates should be respected for what it is. History is a valid subject in its own right and historians have their own set of objectives and rules. I would encourage Paul (since we don't all have his books) to make certain points refering to details of his book as his time might permit. However, a subject that has been regularly treated with delicacy and some secrecy might encounter difficulty in becoming public record. History is available to the public, but esotericism is not. The difference in the matter, shockingly, is that the public is unable to love to the extent that an inner group is. I'm very thankful that Paul is contributing what he is able to contribute on the subject of theosophy for two reasons. 1) By theosophists meeting and communicating with historians, we are given opportunity to express the ideal of brotherhood by practicing it and not just preaching it. 2) Because Paul has such a keen interest in the subject of theosophical initiates, he is brought (even though at present he may seem more historically-minded) into the group that is seeking spiritual knowledge. With the right treatment of him and his work, he also may learn to prefer a different form of "facts" as time goes on. This is why MJ's review is particularly important. While some may show a hard public stance against public exposure of such delicate matters, it is certainly true that there may be some who read Paul's books and decide to investigate the matter more fully by continuing a study of theosophy through its other literature. MJ, at least, has stimulated a certain type of interest by reviewing the matter. To me, treating another person brotherly does not necessarily mean exposing every facet of their character at the earliest opportunity, but my brother deserves all the best things that I want for myself and for others that I love. I hope they will be fairly treated and at times admired and sought for company. I don't want to see them hurt, condemned or ridiculed. When we really are in love it is like the best time in the world. Rose- colored glasses may be nearer to the truth as it is paraphrased when looking through the eyes of love. Painting a rosy picture of another's worth is not what happens when history is written. When we read theosophical literature on the other hand, love expands through every word, as the writer's nature enters their "love poetry" and is their reason for writing. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 09:31:48 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: $64000 Question Last Sunday I spoke to the Baltimore TS on the chela Babaji, and was pleased with the lodge's reception of my research and thoughts. There were lots of good questions, and one, at the end, that really made me stop and think. I'd like to know how others of you would have responded. Boris Orszula said "it's clear that in your investigations you are seeking the truth, whatever it may turn out to be, and try to be strictly objective in determining what is credible and what is not. What then, after all these years of research, do you still find to be worthwhile in the contemporary Theosophical movement, and what do you reject?" (Paraphrase) Folks said my answer made sense to them, but I felt really inadequate. What I said was that the work presently being done in the movement was effective and appropriate in terms of the Three Objects, all of which I "believe in"-- i.e. value and support. That is, the publications and programs of the societies really do-- with varying degrees of success-- fulfill those Objects. On the other hand, there was a serious failure to adhere to the motto "No Religion Higher Than Truth" as the movement had degenerated into a number of factions each of which believes its own version of the truth and discourages people from taking seriously anything which conflicts with that version. One could go on and on about this-- but I'd prefer to see someone else pick up on it, and other possible answers to the question. But beneath the question lies an issue which Brenda's kind message also brings to the foreground-- "how do you feel about the fact that your research is destructive of people's belief systems, and what do you think is left standing in the aftermath of the destruction?" It may surprise some folks to know that I have been a Theosophist for 16 years, have published about 25 articles in various Theosophical journals, have spoken at conferences and many branch meetings, and for the first ten of those years was quite orthodox in my views. So, unlike what Brenda implies, I'm not a historian becoming interested in Theosophy, but a Theosophist who gradually stumbled into historical research. And step by step, the evidence uncovered in that research took me further and further from orthodox views of HPB and the Masters, which was very painful since I was emotionally attached to so many Theosophists. When I first gave a "controversial" talk in London in 1986 (Sufi connections was the topic) I was actually trembling with fear at the possible reactions. Jean Overton Fuller's subsequent charges of an Islamic takeover plot were even worse than I had imagined! Anyhow-- what's the balance sheet of losses and gains for Theosophy if my forthcoming book is basically correct? What is lost is the sense of exclusive exaltation of HPB and the TS as being THE agent of THE Masters in possession of THE occult wisdom. What is gained is a thoroughly documented proof that HPB had more connections with more advanced adepts in more different spiritual traditions East and West than has ever been imagined. And, in consequence, that her teachings are clearly based on authentic information from genuine adept sources. But the human reality of all this leaves us with the realization that HPB and the TS were/are AN agent of SOME Masters in possession of VARIOUS kinds of occult wisdom. And some people will be very unhappy with the extent that these alliances were ever-shifting rather than stable and secure. In terms of degrees of admiration and respect for HPB, I was always considered pretty extreme before I got into this research, and I still love her and honor her as the person who has taught me the most. Moreover, I think people who read the forthcoming book with an unbiased mind will see that it is VERY pro-HPB, in spite of being very much a "warts and all" portrait. One more point and then I'll shut up. Eldon advises trying to put oneself into the position of one's attacker, and this is good advice. In the case of Mark Jaqua, what I surmise is that he perceives, rightly, that my work is destructive of a belief system he values. But then he wrongly assumes that this means my intentions are destructive and selfish, and that I have deliberately manipulated the evidence in service of evil purposes. On the contrary, although I try to be scrupulously even-handed, there are lots of instances where I tend to give HPB the benefit of the doubt. And most importantly, knowing the truth about history may be destructive-- of illusions-- but it can also be liberating and enlightening. Liberation and enlightenment are what Theosophy is all about IMHO, and I am hopeful that most readers will derive more benefit than pain from the results of my labors. Namaste, and thanks to Brenda. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 13:36:24 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Compuserve OOBE Co. May 17,1994 The transcript of the second Compuserve OOBE Co. is now in the Theos-Buds archive and the local FTP pub/theos-l site on Vnet. I'm not fully finished with the OOBE class notes that Don has provided (do_obe.txt file ~ 150 pages long) but I think they are worth reading for most people. Peace - John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 22:51:08 -0400 From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Dreamworld According to magic and occult science, yes, there is in fact, a dreamworld. When we go to sleep, we (ie, our consciousness) leave our physical body and enter either an astral or mental body, suitable for the appropriate plane. Dreams with emotion take place on the astral plane. Dreams without emotion take plane on the mental plane (admittedly this is oversimplified). So, do we or do we not meet and converse with others? It depends. For most of us, our Body of Light is covered over with a rather heavy film - a protective shield, you might say. HPB clearly discusses this in regards to Devachan, but this is also true during our dreams. For most of us, most of the time, we project our desires onto this shield and thus "see" only our own projections. Its rather like being in a safe caccoon. But as we spiritually progress, this film becomes thinner, and in fact can be made to dissapate. Then we "see" outwardly into the astral plane. This idea is found in HPB's writings and is also found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead (this is the real purpose of the Opening the Mouth ceremony) and many other magical teachings in the West and in the East (the bardo body of the Bardo Thodol is nothing more than the western magical Body of Light). Eldon's comment that dreams do not occur on the Globes of our planetary chain is, in my opinion, wrong (this demonstrates the diverse views existing among the theosophical community). Globes C and E are located on the astral plane, which is where we are when we dream with emotions (albeit locked away in a bubble of our own making). Remove the bubble, disperse the clouds that surround our consciousness when we sleep, and we would have real OBE experiences as described in Don's course notes. Just wanted to get my own view into the discussion. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 18:51:39 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Don to Jerry Jerry: Just a quick note to say that your brief disseration on the planes was very good. Thanks for jumping into the discussion! Talk to you soon, Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 18:59:55 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Book Astrology I posted the same book pub date info on alt.astrology that I posted here to see if any comments would be forthcoming. (Thanks, Paddy, for telling me about the comet collision coincidence-- it seems appropriate.) Anyhow, here's what an astrologer came up with from the chart with no knowledge of the contents: "I was struck by the amount of emotional power that seems to be inherent in the book. What's it about? Something that hits people (or you) at their (your) core? Something that was somewhat painful for you to write but is the result of a lot of time/effort? Seems to mark the ending of a phase for you as far as this material goes and the beginning (hopefully) of a new one?" I think she deserves a gold star. Re the cycles, my due date for the new ms. final version is just a week after the first book comes out, so she is right on the money about phases. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 02:02:11 -0400 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: belated replies Paul Johnson Sorry, I have been buried under three research papers, all due in five days, and now I'm treating myself to a break by going back and trying to answer some of your past messages: April 27th: PJ> The travels you describe inspire envy. I've been to Gila and > Aztec ruins in NM and Betatakin in AZ and would like to do the > rest. Have done Yucatan, though, which has a completely > different feel. I think the Anasazi spirituality is a lot more > compelling/uplifting. In Mexico, surprisingly, it was the > Catholic churches rather than the preColumbian stuff that > conveyed that feeling to me. > > Did you do anything else in Brittany, like Carnac? Yes, I visited Carnac. The French Government has it all fenced off now and no one is allowed to walk among the stones. I was told that too many people were writing graffiti on them. While my "host" drove me around the country side, we passed many more sites filled with standing stones. There are thousands of them around that area where one can still walk. It is stunning to think of all of the engineering skills, time and energy it took to set these up. Speaking of churches, if you ever get to Los Angeles, there is a Greek Orthodox Church on Normandie near Beverly that is a miniature of the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. The inside is filled with stained glass windows and breathtaking icons. No expense was spared on this one. The gold on the icons is really gold. It is well worth seeing. I understand that they give tours to the public on Saturdays. The Church is called Saint Sophia. By the way, Lina Psaltis used to teach Sunday School there. May 13th: PJ>Any stories about her, her colleague Basil Crump or son Gordon, >that I won't have found in standard sources are most welcome. > >Jerry H-E, I bet you know a lot about this one. > >Also any comments about Cleather's historical significance are >invited. I doubt if I have anything you haven't already heard. You might get in touch with Ted Davy or Ernie Pelletier. They knew Michael Freedman and have some good oral history on Cleather. What I like about Cleather was that she didn't conform herself to any party line, but came to her own conclusions. No body uses her because she has points of disagreement with everybody. Adyar doesn't want her because she rejected Leadbeater. Pasadena doesn't want her because she rejected Tingley. U.L.T. doesn't want her because she says that Judge was duped. Yet she was a member of H.P.B.'s inner group, and was in a position to know more than most as to what was going on. Concerning your May 14th upload of Mark's book review: For a person who doesn't know you, It is pretty obvious that he is operating on a lot of assumptions. For what it is worth, you are not the first person to have been attacked by him. I far as my own opinion on your first book, I already stated that some time ago. I think the book is worthwhile reading. I didn't agree with all of your conclusions, but I also learned a lot that I didn't already know. I look forward to rereading your book over the Summer. I also look forward to reading your new book. May 17th: PJ> Last Sunday I spoke to the Baltimore TS on the chela Babaji, > and was pleased with the lodge's reception of my research and > thoughts. There were lots of good questions, and one, at the > end, that really made me stop and think. I'd like to know how > others of you would have responded. Boris Orszula said "it's > clear that in your investigations you are seeking the truth, > whatever it may turn out to be, and try to be strictly > objective in determining what is credible and what is not. > What then, after all these years of research, do you still find > to be worthwhile in the contemporary Theosophical movement, and > what do you reject?" (Paraphrase) > > But beneath the question lies an issue which Brenda's kind > message also brings to the foreground-- "how do you feel about > the fact that your research is destructive of people's belief > systems, and what do you think is left standing in the > aftermath of the destruction?" Wow! What a wonderful question! You had a thoughtful and attentive audience. What a rare event. I think that what is underlying both Boris and Brenda's questions are a matter of values. Which is the highest value: loyalty or truth? When loyalty is perceived as the highest value, truth takes a back seat. New information that may compromise their loyalty is suppressed, sometimes destroyed. I have met people who have proudly destroyed historical documents that would have thrown their heros into a bad light, or would have revealed information about them that they did not want known because it would have raised further inquiry. For these people, the Mahatmas must be exactly as they were taught to believe. For many, Mahatmas have been raised to a super human status, far beyond what these teachers ever claimed for themselves. Members loyal to the Mahatmas as portrayed by T.S. literature are no more willing to take seriously any contradictory historical information on the Mahatmas, than a loyal Christian would be willing to seriously consider the Jewish historical records of Jesus as an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier. The Jews suffered centuries of persecution by Christian authorities over their historical records and finally had to expunge them about 300 years ago. If truth was the highest value, then these records would have been brought out and become the subject of a lively debate, and everyone would have been changed by them. When loyalty is the highest value, the preservation of the institution and one's belief system are of greatest importance. Remember my past discussions concerning C.W.L.? When he made his confessions in that board room full of T.S. General Secretaries in 1906, their greatest concern was how to get this man out of the Society without calling public attention to him. The offenses he admitted to (I'm not talking about giving advice on masturbation here) would have given him a very long jail sentence if he were testifying to the English or American Police. But, once again, the highest value was loyalty. It was the value of Loyalty to the preservation of the T.S. that guided Olcott's decision to accept his resignation and not make anything public. I wonder what decision Olcott would have made if it were his own children that were the victims? Out of loyalty to his family, he might have seen things differently. Now this makes for a problem for those who hold truth as the highest value. New truths change what we believe and how we see ourselves. New truths can make our heros into human beings again-- sometimes not very good ones either. Those of us who do research into theosophical history must decide whether an unwelcome truth should be made public or not. This partly depends on whether the researcher takes a deontological or a utilitarian approach. A utilitarian will ask what are the costs. Is a new truth worth causing discomfort among those who value loyalty over truth? Is it worth compromising the dignity of a hero in the name of truth? Is it worth the hate mail, and being demeaned because you dared to speak the truth? Paul, what Theosophical Organization publishes your research? None--right? Your only theosophical source is through an independent academic magazine ~Theosophical History.~ Anything else you do has to be published through presses whose concerns are not primarily theosophical. There is a reason why no publisher loyal to a theosophical organization will touch your research, but an independent publisher who is primarily interested in good research will. In this case, the bottom line for the Organizations is who will determine what is true for the membership. For an Organization, loyalty is more important than truth. For Theosophical Organizations, this is ironic because H.P.B. and her teachers tried to set up an Organization whose highest virtue is truth. That ideal lasted until about 1885 when Olcott decided that it was in the best interest of the Organization that HPB leave Adyar and not defend herself against the Coulomb slanders. The truth of her innocence or guilt was a secondary issue for him. Once again, loyalty to the Organization won over truth. In this light, HPB's comment that Olcott saved the boy of the Organization and lost its soul has new meaning here. A utilitarian whose highest value is truth will measure the losses against the gains. "What are the benefits; what are the losses?" "Will anything change if I make this public?" "What will happen to me?" "If I let this one out, will they stop publishing my writings, thus loosing all future opportunities to share my discoveries?" "Perhaps it would be better to wait for a more opportune time when I would suffer less losses." A deontologist on the other hand, will act upon principle. "The truth should be known." "Our Organization was founded on truth, so I should speak the truth as a matter of principle, regardless of how it will be received." "Truth, should be more important than loyalty." Needless to say, I have been primarly a deontologist all of my life, and I believe that you probably fall into that category also. The trouble with deontologists is that in the end they either become regarded as "trouble makers," or "martyrs to a cause." Either way, they are never acknowledged for their accomplishments until after they are dead--if at all. Here is how I would have answered Boris' question: I find truth to be the primary value of the T.M. that I find worthwhile. For me, truth is the most important value, whether that value is held by the membership of the theosophical organizations or not. This primary value demands that the T.S. is to be a body of truth seekers. I choose to uphold that value and try to make a positive contribution to the T.M. through its exercise. Those who find painful the publication of ideas that are contrary to their own, must learn to take responsibility for their own feelings. I am not the source of their pain. Their discomfort comes from a higher, more knowing part of themselves, because our lower selves have become attached to ideas. Attachment to ideas blind us from the recognition of other ideas that might deepen our understanding. If someone's belief system is destroyed by new information, I see that as a wonderful opportunity for spiritual growth. It is an opportunity to re-evaluate one's beliefs and discard those that no longer work in light of the new information. I see my contribution to the T.M. as trying to bring light to those places of darkness through my own pursuit of truth. If unexpected, ugly or unpleasant things lurk in those shadows, it is better to bring them out than to pretend that they don't exist. We can learn by them. I think this addresses both Boris' and Brenda's questions. Peace Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:14:41 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: belated replies again Thanks for all your thought on these matters, which was apparently going on in the back of your mind during all those papers. As for Cleather, what I'm finding most remarkable about her is that she didn't even really begin to have a life of adventure until her 70s, and then went non-stop for twenty more years. Yes, everyone rejects her because she rejects everyone (Theosophically speaking). But perhaps for that reason she seems an excellent note on which to end my book since in this domain we have so much in common. I was fascinated by the Cokers' description of the Coulterville event and even checked into plane fares-- but they're outrageous, so it doesn't seem feasible to come to the next one. Will be going to the annual meeting in Wheaton, however, books in hand. The issue of loyalty vs. truth will probably determine whether people want to sit with me at lunch or not! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 04:12:44 -0400 From: Andrew Rooke Subject: Disseminating theosophy Some years back a conference was held in New York during which practical ideas on the dissemination of theosophy were shared by theosophists of all persuasions. A wonderful cross-fertilization of ideas resulted with some very constructive and non-traditional activities for theosophical groups being advocated such as the use of poetry, drama, and art to communicate theosophical ideas. Why don't we continue this good work using the wonderful medium of Internet? I would like to start the ball rolling with a few suggestions based on our experience here in Australia, and some of the ideas that have appeared on Theos-l over the past few months: 1/ Development of theosophical libraries : some members of the network are librarians (eg Paul Johnston and myself) and therefore well placed to offer advice on the development of theosophical libraries. Why not identify and utilize this expertize wherever needed in different parts of the world? 2/ Current awareness of theosophical literature : an idea which has value in situations such as ours where members and friends work in isolation is to establish a current awareness service. Contents pages of theosophical magazines could be distributed to interested people who don't have access to a theosophical library and articles of interest copied for them (where this does not breach copyright!). 3/ Theosophically trained therapists : some weeks ago we briefly discussed the impact of changing family structures in the Western world and what, if anything, theosophists could do to alleviate the resultant problems that arise from this process. The idea was put forward that, if parents could see their responsibilities in the light of the great laws of life that theosophy teaches, then many of these problems could be ameliorated. How is it possible to practically apply this sentiment? I remember reading interesting accounts by theosophically inspired psychological therapists in Sunrise magazine and Theosophical Link (TS Pasadena pubs) which gave actual examples of people applying theosophic concepts to marital and psychological therapy. Could more be done to draw on the experiences of such people and ways found to train others (not necessarily in theosophical organizations) with these concepts? 4/ Use of new technology : the discussion on the production of a thesophical game on CDROM on Theos-l recently is an interesting example of the application of new technology to the ancient concepts we hold dear as theosophists. There must be so many other practical ways, including the further use of Internet, that theosophical ideas could be disseminated using new technology. What do others think to a regular discussion addressing ourselves to practical issues of helping others with the knowledge we have in the theosophic tradition? With good wishes to all, Andrew From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 12:05:06 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Disseminating theosophy Hi Andrew, I am another librarian and think you have a great idea. This has long been one of my main interest. One of the letters from the Mahatmas said the silence of ages was not broken for the benefit of a handful of Western Europes intellectuals, but for the masses. Theosophy has yet to reach those masses. There must be more effective methods today than those established at the end of the 19th century. One thing that has struck me in monitoring these discussions is how much talking we do to each other. I have gotten on local bulletin boards and posted such questions as: Is there anyone who has had a near death experience? Does anyone have a "real" ghost story? Does anyone know anything about reincarnation? Of course I got a lot of smartass remarks, but I also turned up a few people with interests in metaphysical subjects that I was able to introduce some theosophical ideas to. Here it seems much of the time and energy is spent on debates over whose interpretation of the source materials is more correct. Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 12:05:06 -0400 From: "LEWIS LUCAS" Subject: Re: Disseminating theosophy Hi Andrew, I am another librarian and think you have a great idea. This has long been one of my main interest. One of the letters from the Mahatmas said the silence of ages was not broken for the benefit of a handful of Western Europes intellectuals, but for the masses. Theosophy has yet to reach those masses. There must be more effective methods today than those established at the end of the 19th century. One thing that has struck me in monitoring these discussions is how much talking we do to each other. I have gotten on local bulletin boards and posted such questions as: Is there anyone who has had a near death experience? Does anyone have a "real" ghost story? Does anyone know anything about reincarnation? Of course I got a lot of smartass remarks, but I also turned up a few people with interests in metaphysical subjects that I was able to introduce some theosophical ideas to. Here it seems much of the time and energy is spent on debates over whose interpretation of the source materials is more correct. Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:52:04 -0400 From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Disseminating theosophy Regarding disseminating theosophy. Although i have not been around the T.S. and other disseminaors long, I have learned some hard lessons. the most important thing is not the message taught, but the life lived. One puts the message in the stream and knows that those open to the search will have to make an effort to receive it. How many of you were born into a theosophical-orientated family. Few! Maybe years ago this was true but not now. Videos can only do so much. Games are cute. But there is a certain trivialization and carnival atmosphere that comes with all the flashing lights. And "selling" atmosphere. HERE IS THE REAL POINT--- You can't spread theosophy like an evangelical Christian (who would want t0). By nature it eamains "occult" hidden even to the most advanced. One has to continully search. Search one's HEART, MIND AND SOULD. THis is not to say let's give up. It took a great struggle for me a very non-techie to get on internet. By I persevered in hopes it would help me on the PATH, not "give me the answers" So I salute my fellow theosophist for their efforts if their motive is pure. But if their is an element of "how can we push this", I say back off and ask what are you trying to do. Nobody likes a knock on the door from those young men on bikes in their white shirts and ties, or few! I know let's do a music video :). No let's get real. The theosophical path is an elite path, that calls to the vangaurd of humanity to help the laggards in their evolution. the study of theosophy does not do this. The application of theosophy in the WHite House, the Exxon board room, at The Washington Post (you get the idea) might. Namaste From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:07:37 -0400 From: Aki Korhonen Subject: Re: Disseminating theosophy Great idea Andrew... I liked particularly the internet idea. But right now we are utilizing one side of this net. I suggest that we could spread information of this discussion/study group to theosophist around globe, systematically. E. g. sending a info-letter ( normal-paper-letter) to all national theosophical headquarters. I think it would be very nice if we could have atleast one theosophist at each country. They could act as a kind of local correspondents. But this should be addressed directly to national headquartes or maybe to the world headquarters, and by normal media. I'm not sure but I have a slight impression, that you, american members, see this study-group in little bit different way. I mean, please don't be too shy to spread the word. This is a great thing, and will be even greater in the near future! I'm sorry if you have discussed this topic before, I have come in quite recently. So here is my belated self-introduction, I'm a architecture student at the university of Oulu in Finland. Oulu is a 100000 inhabitant town at the middle of Finland. My interests beside theosophy are chinese health systems, qi gong, taiji, Aikido, Hanggliding.. I live with my girlfriend and a bullmastif-female. In general I have a very critical opinion about the whole idea of the consept and practice of the worldwide information services etc. I have been c. four years, that I intentionally have't followed any media and news(no tv,radio, newspapers), and so far I have't met any difficulties. If you have some opinions about media I would like to have some discussion here. Peace to all creatures, Aki From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:44:56 -0400 From: Keith Price <74024.3352@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Disseminating theosophy Again Sorry if I sounded negative and for all the typos. Like I said, I"m not a techie and was not sure if the message was sent. I'm still struggling with all thecommand and protocols. On the positive side, I think this internet discussion group is one othe best way to disseminate thesophy! Thanks to John Mead and others their is now a really WIDESPREAD forum that is almost instantaneous. Positive suggestions: 1) T.S. headquaters and should be on internet (Wheaton is, Point Loma ?, Adyar is not) This would be an excellent use of scarce funds and pay for itself many times over 2) Techie liason to headquaters to coordinate this (John has done a lot of work) Don De Garcia has written a really excellent program 3) Have an on-line lodge once a week where people could chat more informally and have formal conferences - Why not summer school on line (yeah right, dream on!) 4) Memeber at large could enter a member at large lodge on-line 5) have abridged major texts in the library for dowloading 6) More person to person e-mail on person pen-pal levels 7) More coordination with others on the newage forum on compuserve. This is a good way to get the basics of philosophy into some of the more "emphemeral" shall I say aspects of the new age like aroma theaphy and crystals (nothing wrong with them, but they need to be more grounded) Oh well I stuck my nose in it now Namaste From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:11:32 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Cyril Scott SUNY Press just sent me a reader's report on my current ms. One thing it says presents a real challenge-- that I shouldn't ignore the writings of Cyril Scott. The challenge is that I am totally ignorant of this person and haven't a clue as to how relevant he is to what I'm pursuing. Checking on OCLC I found him as author of a series on "The Initiate" -- each book having that in its title. Anyone have any insight into this author and his significance to Theosophical history? Thanks in advance for any tidbits. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 10:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: eldon (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Good and Evil (resent) This is by Brenda Tucker. Why is what human beings do or say "truth" to some? When you tell a story about someone behaving inappropriately, uncomely, or immorally, how does this qualify as presenting the truth? If it is truth for one soul-seeker to strike out at a mistake by another soul-searcher, then how is forgiveness lived? And if it is truth that highly-evolved, loving, seekers of wisdom have done hateful, stupid, and sinful acts, then why must this become public record, we only have to look at our own life to gain this knowledge. Doesn't everyone have a prime example of what the life of the soul is? Themselves? Why look to others to reveal to you that their humanity is intact? You yourself know that initiates and probationers make mistakes because you yourself have made mistakes. And how does this make anyone unfit to continue the work? If you are so certain that there are those among us who are disillusioned into expecting our future lives to be without mishap, and think they must wait to qualify until they are living a life which is pure and unstained, and that in this way we are following in the steps of the great founders of The Theosophical Society, then maybe it's yourself that needs disillusioning. I think what many are attempting is to live a life in the world - and a life of the spirit. This somehow fulfills a desire in man to excel at all things. Who excelled? Did Jesus? What about the self-sacrifice of his own life and teaching-healing mission so that justice could continue for mankind? What I believe inevitably happens in the life of every initiate is that he can no longer balance the forces of mankind and the forces behind the existence of adept masters. He is faced with making a decision whether to continue a limited existence as man or sacrifice that existence for the good of mankind as a whole. Could it be possible that every man who becomes adept, who steps away from the limited ideas of men into a fuller cognition of the cosmos as a whole, must preserve for those people who must continue human existence a world which has been built perhaps not to perfection but to a certain stage of evolution? How can we be faced with preserving a system of justice which is inadequate? What choice do we actually have? Hopefully by the self-sacrifice of those who know, humanity can continue on its path, despite the advanced stage of some of its participants, because we are only able to rely completely on what it is the majority of us are able to discern. Maybe this is a stage, but who is to say it is not for the best? Most theosophists think of sacrifice in terms of giving up nirvana to teach men the way. But this sacrifice of your earth life in order to permit justice to continue on earth for all men rather than allow justice to become a commodity belonging only to those who are divine and can envisage divine justice is an important idea if we can find enough reason to permit this idea growth. Take for example the man who supplied the video tape which exposed the police force in Los Angeles on the illegal managing of the Rodney King arrest. If he had known the damages that would results from riots, fires, and retaliatory fighting, would he have been morally justified in supplying the tape? Not unless he were a 4th initiate maybe. That may make this case minor compared to an example of a noble, compassionate, and genuinely loving person who really did have the foreknowledge and could advert difficulty by losing his life. I mean how valuable is a life compared to the surrendering of facts to the public? Maybe the video tape case is only one of many such building blocks which test and prepare a man for this bodily sacrifice and who even remembers the name of the man who did the taping? An insignificant person? Maybe not. My favorite story is from THE LIVES OF ALCYONE by Leadbeater where he tells of Alcyone's last life as 4th degree initiate. During this life, which was quite ordinary in his telling of the story in which Alcyone worked within a business-type position and was reasonably well-thought of by his community, until the time when a murder occurred and he was framed by a bad sort of fellow by a torn piece of Alcyone's own shirt being found near the body of the murder victim. Alcyone was arrested and confined to a jail cell until, after being found guilty, he was to be executed as was in accordance with the law of that day. The Master Kuthumi appeared to him the night before he was to die and gave him a choice. Kuthumi could save Alcyone's life. It didn't say how. I imagine through the use of some magical power, he could cause his disappearance from the cell, but it doesn't say how. Kuthumi also showed a visual image to Alcyone depicting the conditions of the system of justice in that land which would result by his release from his sentence. These images are not described in detail either, but the suffering and setback of this small group of humanity was something Alcyone could not knowlingly become responsible for and he chose to die rather than cause his fellows to lose faith in the judicial and to receive justice even in a worse way than was currently possible under the law. Do you think that Jesus, too, may have elected to die rather than to cause chaos to reign in a kingdom on earth whose ruler and justice system had only progressed enough to satisfy the demands of the karma of humanity at this point in time? Many men have fought and died for "freedom" which is a little redundant because if their captured or they lose, they must obey their victors, which necessitates loss of freedom. But haven't men also fought and died for justice. Is this because our karma is so difficult to overcome in relation to methods of justice and improvements in the judicial system? We need better methods of knowing whether someone is telling the truth, for example. It's true that there are flaws in the human system of justice, but it is still the best that we have and we have to make do with it as it is or improve it, not cause its downfall. What I prefer to rely on and attempt to adhere to is the divine system of justice in life. Divine justice versus human justice can continue its battle within every man, because we all have to chose for ourselves which forces are allowed to play in us. For unlike Jerry, I believe that those mental battles (pain resulting from "attachment to ideas" were his words) are not won or lost but are risen above. (Just as mythology can exist side by side with monotheism. Narayan helped me understand this. He said, "There's only a danger at the mental level.") Beyond the mind lies a peace which just doesn't exist on the mental plane. Jerry says there are ideas that deepen our understanding (Does he mean the idea that our heros are still bad people?), but it is really our own readiness to deepen which acts on all ideas and urges us not to accept any idea except in relation to the work at hand. The mental plane may well be a battleground designed to teach mankind the nature of existence and to teach mankind to see at different levels of understanding, but it isn't the final frontier. We can go beyond that state of existence to chelaship. As found in THE MAHATMA LETTERS, Letter No. LXVII, to Colonel Olcott: "Intuitive as you naturally are chelaship is yet almost a complete puzzle for you as for my friend Sinnett and the others they have scarcely an inkling of it yet. Why must I even now (to put your thoughts in the right channel) remind you of the three cases of insanity within seven months among "lay chelas," not to mention one's turning a thief? Mr. Sinnett may consider himself lucky that his lay chelaship is in "fragments" only, and that I have so uniformly discouraged his desires for a closer relationship as an accepted chela. Few men know their inherent capacities only the ordeal of crude chelaship develops them. (Remember these words: they have a deep meaning.) Please tell me where is the deep meaning to "Someone's been bad?" Am I the only one who thinks of truth in terms similar to this quote from THE IDYLL OF THE WHITE LOTUS, beginning of Chapter Eight?: "There are three truths which are absolute, and which cannot be lost, but yet may remain silent for lack of speech. The soul of man is immortal and its future is the future of a thing whose growth and splendour has no limit. The principle which gives life dwells in us and without us, is undying and eternally beneficent, is not heard or seen, or smelt, but is perceived by the man who desires perception. Each man is his own absolute lawgiver, the dispenser of glory or gloom to himself; the decreer of his life, his reward, his punishment. These truths, which are as great as is life itself are as simple as the simplest mind of man. Feed the hungry with them." Doesn't the word "truth" imply a search for meaning behind a stimulus to higher awareness and an appeal to the higher self of man? Isn't this why "truth" (to qualify as such) needs universality? Who on earth is concerned whether or not someone named Alice Cleather felt betrayed by her fellows or not? Betrayal happens. Betrayal is a common thread, but not when it relates to particular individuals who we have never known, read, or even heard of previously (as so many people haven't.) >From THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 48, Theosophical University Press, 1936, The Seven Portals where the keys are listed: "4. VIRAG, indifference to pleasure and to pain, illusion conquered, truth alone perceived. 5. VIRYA, the dauntless energy that fights its way to the supernal TRUTH, out of the mire of lies terrestrial." You know, with quotes like these I don't know how we can compare what truth is to a theosophist to something as trite as whether a man sinned or not. Also of interest (possibly) and because this idea has been associated in the past with Leadbeater's teachings, is a concept found in AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER, p. 28, TPH, 1993, Section Four on "Love": "See what gossip does. It begins with evil thought and that in itself is a crime. For in everyone and in everything there is good; in everyone and in everything there is evil. Either of these we can strengthen by thinking of it, and in this way we can help or hinder evolution; we can do the will of the Logos, or we can resist Him. If you think of the evil in another, you are doing at the same time three wicked things: 1) You are filling your neighborhood with evil thought, and so you are adding to the sorrow of the world. 2) If there is in that man the evil which you think, you are strengthening it and feeding it; and so you are making your brother worse instead of better. But generally the evil is not there, and you have only fancied it; and then your wicked thought tempts your brother to do wrong, for if he is not yet perfect you may make him that which you have thought him. 3) You fill your own mind with evil thoughts instead of good; and so you hinder your own growth, and make yourself, for those who can see, an ugly and painful object instead of a beautiful and lovable one. Not content with having done all this harm to himself and to his victim, the gossip tries with all his might to make other men partners in his crime. Eagerly he tells his wicked tale to them, hoping that they will believe it; and they then join with him in pouring evil thought upon the poor sufferer. And this goes on day after day, and is done not by one man but by thousands. Do you begin to see how base, how terrible a sin this is? You must avoid it altogether. Never speak ill of any one; refuse to listen when any one else speaks ill of another, but gently say: "Perhaps this is not true, and even if it is, it is kinder not to speak of it."" Why doesn't this sort of message make sense? To me it's true and loving and kind, but to someone else it is weak, irrelevant, and overstated and not to be regarded as good advice, let alone truth. Is someone so wrong to expect discussion regarding theosophy and truth to contain truth, even if it is presented in a controversial manner? Can you teach this subject or at least present and express its elevating concepts? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 02:59:55 -0400 From: Olcott Library Subject: Re: Cyril Scott On Tue, 24 May 1994, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > SUNY Press just sent me a reader's report on my current ms. > One thing it says presents a real challenge-- that I shouldn't > ignore the writings of Cyril Scott. The challenge is that I am > totally ignorant of this person and haven't a clue as to how > relevant he is to what I'm pursuing. Checking on OCLC I found > him as author of a series on "The Initiate" -- each book having > that in its title. > Anyone have any insight into this author and his significance > to Theosophical history? Thanks in advance for any tidbits. > Cyril Scott was a British composer and theosophist. He was born in 1879 and studied music in Germany. After a phase of agnosticism he discovered Yoga philosophy, joined the Theosophical Society, and became interested in occultism and mysticism. He wrote several novels of the "occult fiction" genre. He was also interested in alternative medicine and wrote several books in that area. He wrote his autobiography, "Bone of Contention," at age 90 in 1969. The Olcott Library has a good selection of his books. Any member of the Theosophical Society in America may borrow materials from the Olcott Library. Anyone NOT affiliated with the TSA may become a library member for an annual fee of $30.00. Requests may be e-mailed directly to: olcott@dupagels.lib.il.us Elisabeth Trumpler Head Librarian From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 03:00:45 -0400 From: Joseph Titland Subject: Re: Cyril Scott On Tue, 24 May 1994, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > SUNY Press just sent me a reader's report on my current ms. > One thing it says presents a real challenge-- that I shouldn't > ignore the writings of Cyril Scott. The challenge is that I am > totally ignorant of this person and haven't a clue as to how > relevant he is to what I'm pursuing. Checking on OCLC I found > him as author of a series on "The Initiate" -- each book having > that in its title. Anyone have any insight into this author and his > significance to theosophical history? Thanks in advance for > any tidbits. Paul: I take this from p. 204 of Great Song, The Life and Teachings of Joe Miller: "Admired by Claude Debussy, Sir Edward Elgar, G.B. Shaw, and others, Cyril Scott (1879-1970) was not only a celebrated musical composer, he was also the author of numerous books of mystical philosophy, occult fiction, nutrition, and healing lore. Crafted for seekers struggling in the western world of the 20th century, Scott's The Greater Awareness expounded a holistic programme aimed at realization through the cultivation of love and awareness. In Music: Its Secret Influence Throughout The Ages, Scott articulated his views on how the works of masters such as Wagner, Beethoven, and Chopin affected the evolution of human consciousness." The Greater Awareness is published by Samuel Weiser (York Beach Me., 1981) Don't know on the other one. If you (or any other theosophists on line) haven't read "Great Song" which is about Joe Miller, a long time San Francisco theosophist who died in 1992, I think you might find it worthwhile. It's published by Maypop (196 Westview Drive, Athens, Georgia 30606, 1993). Joseph From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 May 94 23:12:53 -0700 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Seminar over lunch Sarah, Yes, I think someone might be able to do a report on the seminar. I hope some publishable papers may also come out of the process. The seminar will begin on June 18th, (In Turlock) with some students visiting from the Oakland area who are doing presentations on the seven principles of the human constitution from different viewpoints. For instance one will be presenting Vedantist teachings, but at a deeper level than presented by Subba Row. Another will be presenting this concept from classical Greek philosophy etc. Our students, on the other hand, are researching the "seven principles" in terms of their historical development. And will be presenting their own research at a later time. Best Jerry