From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 03:37:11 -0500 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: AAB\HPB Arvind JHE>> The Wesak festival is without doubt uniquely Leadbeater's, >> and was clearly part of Leadbeater's E.S. teachings long >> before it was published in ~Masters and the Path~. The >> inconsistencies I was trying to raise between Leadbeater and >> Blavatsky concerning the seven principles is also a result of >> Leadbeater changing the teachings. These are not "overlaps" >> but the direct adoption of Leadbeater teachings. They are not >> H.P.B.'s and they contradict her teachings. So I guess that >> means that Leadbeater still needs to be a subject for >> scrutiny. How important is the Wesak Festival in the AAB >> teachings? AK> The Wesak festival (the full moon of Taurus) alongwith the > Easter(Aries) and the Gemini full moons constitue the three > major full moon festivals in the AAB teaching. Many of DK's > messages are on occasions of full moons; some of the most > important ones I think are those given on the Wesak festivals. I'm familiar with what the Wesak festival is. I read AAB's discussion of it in her Autobiography many years ago, and we attended one or two of them when we lived in Los Angeles. My question was one that asks for an evaluation on your part--how important is the Wesak festival in the AAB teachings? AK> Do you believe that the day or the time of the full moon > has any special significance? Is there anything in HPB's > writings about this? There is an extensive amount of information in HPB's writings concerning cycles and the moon in TSD and elsewhere. I correlated that all together about twenty years ago, and used to teach it as part of an "esoteric astrology" module, when I taught astrology classes in the early 70's. My reading of HPB is that she follows the ancient idea that cycles begin with the new moon- -not the full. Even GdeP followed this lead in his teachings, using the new moon--not the full as the ideal starting point of calendars and of initiation cycles. This reasoning probably has something to do with the "pernicious influence" of the moon mentioned in letter 15 of the Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. As I said earlier, the Wesak festival as described in AAB's Autobiography and in ~The Masters and the Path~ is fully Leadbeater's teaching. You will not find this ceremony anywhere in Tibetan Buddhism--though Leadbeater wants you to believe that it is there, and known by the Tibetan Buddhists. AK> There is a booklet published by Lucis on the Wesak festival > detailing what happens on that occasion in a valley in Tibet. > It appears like a beautiful description of something that > I have NEVER experienced (but which AAB indicates ALL > disciples who have progressed beyond a certain degree > experience). I just assume that I have not reached that > degree of evolvement as yet, that is why I have never > experienced that 'subjective condition' so far. It is this > description in the booklet (authored by AAB) that seems to > agree with what I found in the Masters and the Path. I have > no way of knowing whether the description of what happens at > Wesak is true or not! What is your opinion? Yes, I have a copy of this or a similar pamphlet. The description in the ~Masters and the Path~, in my opinion, is substantially the same as the one given in AAB's Autobiography. The Material in the ~Masters and the Path,~ including the Wesak description, was part of Leadbeater's ES teachings (not HPB's), and would have been easily accessible to AAB during the time of her stay at Krotona. Since, there is no confirmation in Tibetan Buddhist literature concerning this ceremony, my opinion is that, Leadbeater dreamed the whole thing up--like he did so many other teachings. Whether or not he himself believed what he taught, I can't say for sure, though my guess is that he might have been at least partly a victim of his own "visions." Therefore my doubts extend far beyond whether or not Leadbeater's description of the ceremony is accurate, I don't believe the ceremony that Leadbeater speaks of takes place at all. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm anxious to see it. JHE>> I remember reading the "rules" that you are referring to >> some years ago. Which of HPB's teachings are they suppose to >> be "extensions" of? AK> I think the original thread here related to why AAB teachings > donot relate to HPB's teachings on a 1:1 basis. The > explanation is that AAB's theosophical teachings extend (or go > beyond) what HPB gave out so there is no 1:1 relationship. For > example, if HPB did not say anything about the periods of the > full moon, one could assume that this was something new that > AAB introduced. Same thing about the rules in TWM (they may > not match anything given out by HPB). I see the situation as being much more complex then this. For example, let us assume that HPB said nothing about the lunar periods as you suggest here (this is not really true, but I'm using your example to illustrate a point). But let us say that she does give ample information concerning the role of the moon in planetary and human evolution, as well as in symbolism and mythology (which she indeed does). I would then take AAB's "new" teaching concerning the moon and ask how it fits in with everything else we know about the moon, in both HPB's teachings and in light of modern knowledge. Thus, even though AAB's teaching may be an "extension," there is still ample *related* material in HPB's writings and in modern science to compare and make an evaluation. In the light of my above explanation, can you tell me which of HPB's teachings are AAB's "rules" supposed to be extensions of? [Regarding Purucker]: JHE>> No. I don't think he "simplified" her teachings--though he >> lectured on many of them, explaining them in different words. >> By "extend" I understand you to mean introducing new teachings >> not in HPB's writings, but perhaps hinted at. I think that >> would be a fair assessment of GdeP's works. For instance his >> teachings concerning the twelve globes, inner rounds, the >> initiatory cycles, and teachings concerning the nature of the >> historical Jesus are not found in Blavatsky. He also gives >> solutions to several riddles found in HPB's writings and in >> the Mahatma Letters. So, based upon your definition, I would >> say that GdeP "extends" as well as "expands" upon HPB's >> writings. Like AAB, whether these "extensions" are correct is >> another question. But we are not investigating Purucker here. AK> That is useful material on GdeP that you have mentioned > above. Do you see that on 'expansions' we can relate the AAB or > GdeP material back to HPB but on 'extensions' we cannot (we can > only speculate on whether these extensions are 'compatible' > or not). No, I don't see it this way, for the reason I just gave above, when we were discussing AAB's teachings on the moon. One thing I really like about HPB is that she never puts her readers into a position where they have to take anything on "faith (though many readers do that anyway--but this is laziness on the reader's part, and not HPB's fault)." If TCF is an "extension" of TSD, then I would expect to be able to evaluate it using the same rules that are used to evaluate HPB's writings. Is this asking too much? JHE>> As I stated above, one makes a hypothesis *after* the data >> is collected. This is my understanding of the scientific >> method. Please correct me if I misunderstand the scientific >> method. I don't think I do. The Sciences were my best >> subjects in undergrad studies. As for "accepting AAB >> teaching," that would not be appropriate for me to accept or >> reject it. When you present an AAB teaching, I ask: where >> does it come from?; how does it relate to HPB's teachings? >> These are exactly the same questions I would have to ask for >> the purpose of this investigation regardless of my feelings >> about AAB teachings. As I have stated many times before, I'm >> not interested in accepting or rejecting AAB's teachings. >> Therefore rather than forming a hypothesis without data, I >> think we should stick with the original course of pursuing the >> question: How does the teachings of HPB and AAB compare? If >> you want a hypothesis, perhaps we have enough information to >> form the hypothesis that AAB borrowed from Leadbeater's E.S. >> teachings. I'm ready to pursue this hypothesis if you are. AK> Let us put what the traditional science says about hypothesis > aside and just discuss what we wish to accomplish. What I feel > qualified to discuss is a relative simple question like: > "Are AAB teachings compatible with HPB teachings?" Your > explanation above seems to agree with what I also wish to > accomplish. The reason that I bring up this question > again and again (which irritates you) is because I have a > habit of keeping the 'objective' in view (in this case > the objective happens to be to ensure compatibility of > HPB and AAB teaching). May be I should refrain from > making any statement about the conclusions that I draw > from this discussion since we can draw our own (perhaps > different) conclusions from the data gathered or material > discussed. Did I tell you that I was "irritated?" What makes you believe that you can "read" my feelings in this text? If we had met, and we had spent some time together, I could understand how you might be in a position to surmise my feelings--though you still may be incorrect. The reason this catches my interest is because of a conversation I had last weekend at Krotona with a friend who has been following this dialogue. She expressed her opinion that the reason you are constantly misjudging and misintrepreting what I write, is because you have no knowledge of the "personality" that is behind this written text--and thus attribute motivations and feelings that are not there. My friend, who knows me very well, says that when she reads my text, she also "hears" my "voice." Because she knows me as a person, she has a "sense" of my intentions (and perhaps sometimes feelings) that are behind the text. From reading your responses, she is very aware that my intentions are very different than those you often surmise. Now, to address the main issue you raised above: Yes, a question like "Are AAB teachings compatible with HPB teachings" is acceptable, though I prefer the original and slightly broader question that I originally posed: "How do HPB's and AAB's teachings compare." The reason why I prefer the original question is because we can look at broader issues than "compatibility," and not be shackled into an either/or situation. As far as your "objective," which you state is "to ensure the compatibility of HPB and AAB teaching" this is not at all acceptable to me. It is the same as saying--"I'm going to investigate whether HPB's and AAB's teachings are compatible, but there is only one acceptable conclusion that I will allow myself to come to--which is that they are compatible." With this "objective," why bother to make an investigation at all? The only possible motivations that I can think of are that this is an opportunity for you: 1. to convert others over to the AAB teachings; 2. and to practice learning arguments to defend AAB against any criticism. Are these your motivations? JHE>> Regarding the Bowen article, I will mail you a copy. AK> Thanks. These days I have been reading AP Sinnett's > Esoteric Buddhism and enjoying every bit. BTW, you said that > HPB indicates that Devachan is a 'place of gods' and she is at > odds with Buddhism in this. Deva in Sanskrit means 'god' so > Devachan in Sanskrit probably means a 'place where gods live' > in its literal translation. Is that not a satisfactory > explanation for HPB's statements on Devachan? I have not > read them so far. Not according to authorities in this field. One of the authorities who was emphatic that HPB was wrong was W.Y. Evans- Wentz. I once heard a recorded interview where he discussed this at some length, but it has been too many years since I heard this recording for me to feel comfortable repeating his arguments. A more recent conversation I had on this subject was with John Cooper when he was in this country a few years ago. He lectures on Buddhism at the University of Sydney, and I consider him quite knowledgeable on the subject, though not an "authority" in the sense that Evans-Wentz is, he is more knowledgeable than the latter on theosophy. John is also the compiler of HPB's collected letters, that will be published in a few years. He considers HPB's definition to be quite an embarrassment. If you want to take the time, there are a lot of current works on Buddhism easily available, where you can research it for yourself As for "deva" it has many more meanings than "god." But the issue, has more to do with the meaning of "chan" and the actual origin of the word "devachan," which is not a Sanskrit term, as HPB says, but Tibetan, and means "the happy place," not "the abode of the gods." The Sanskrit equivalent of Devachan, according to Evans-Wentz is "sukhavati." Regarding ~Esoteric Buddhism,~ which edition are you reading? Tonight begins my ten day Spring Break. I spent over five hours meeting individually with my students, after teaching the class, and I'm drained. Who says teaching isn't a real job? I put in eight hours for every one I get paid. Now, I get to spend the next ten days researching and writing three papers, as well as preparing three others for publication. "No rest for the wicked" they say. Fraternally, Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 14:15:29 -0500 From: John Mead Subject: MidSouth Federation Meeting Schedule: MidSouth Federation Meeting Theosophical Society in America Title: "Fifty Thousand Tulips and a Whote Lotus" Date May 6-8, 1994 (friday through sunday) Place The Terrace Inn. Lake Junaluska, NC 800-222-4930 Friday: 8pm -- "The Path, and What It Takes To Walk It" Brant Jackson - (MidSouth Federation Pres.; Attorney) Saturday: Morning Programs "The Seven Rays and Astrology" -- Amy Furnans (Dir. SE District) "Medical Miracles" -- Dr. V.R. Rao Afternoon Programs ----none; Free time ----or - optional tour of the Biltmore Estate House, Gardens and Winery (self guided) (50,000 Tulips) Evening Programs 7pm -- "The Necessity of Reincarnation" -- Brant Jackson "The Path to Freedom" -Carol Ward and Dr. Ben Ward(PhD Chemistry) Sunday: (White Lotus Day) Morning Programs: "The Path of HPB, Persona" -- Elizabeth Peryam (Atlanta Branch) "Astrology and HPB" (the astrology chart of HPB) -- Amy Furnans You will be able to return (drive) home after the Noon Buffet Lunch.... Prices: Conference Registration -- $15 TSA Members; $20 Non-members Biltmore Tour: extra $20.75 pre-registration required (no deposit) Housing (perDay): Terrace Inn (Includes meals):$67 single;$45 Double;$32 Quad(per-person) Stil-Light: $15 per person (no meals) If you need more Info; send e-mail to: theos-L@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:34:58 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: answers and more questions This is by Brenda. In answer to the question posed by Nancy for Paddy in Australia: I don't mind referring back to my own experience with a university course in World Religions. This course became a real stumbling block to me because what we were doing was more like a ceremonial activity. Every semester (or so) this class takes place, sometimes with different reading material, but always with the intent to cover what its name suggests. Covering written material, and lots of it, in order to expand our thinking along unknown subject areas is usually what a course of this type accomplishes. But say someone isn't interested in "thinking" or "accumulating" facts. The real religious experience was provided to me in two ways: 1) in black and white - the written word and 2) in a "winding" picture of ascent. When you envision the masters, you see the work that is cut out for you, the changes that have to be made in yourself, and hopefully as well you find others who have the same "goal" at the heart of their living. In my mind you are missing several things in the classroom that are necessary for the "miracle" of God providing the way. 1) There is no lifelong fellowship. The class is over in a few months and very few expect to continue a fruitful, awareness-building relationship with a classmate, let alone the teacher. 2) The love that I knew as a child, the protection, nourishment, and sensitivity to the whole person that one is becoming, is a very hard thing to replace. I don't know how it can be replaced at college or in the workplace unless you are provided with extraordinary circumstances in a singular manner. I do believe that God provides for everyone, meaning that there are opportunities for you to find that love which you once knew as a child in your adult life, but they are distinctly individual, and therefore this miracle of a religious experience, a lifelong commitment, can be found anywhere for God is everywhere. My husband wrote recently on cycles and he has also helped me to think through my own beliefs. I believe that the doctrine of cycles is sometimes grossly misleading. You can't simply describe and represent an idea and expect it to become a major force in your life. My favorite talk on cycles was given by Marilyn Ferguson at the National Headquarters in Wheaton when I was on staff there. Marilyn was speaking on dissipative structures. Here was scientific evidence of life forms which were "death tending" and running out of energy. This is the one place that cycles really made sense. I mean what is the alternative? Were cycles of birth and death a myth? If energy is depletable in the cell at certain stages of its existence, what is the message we receive? Is it that all life is winding down towards death? The other point more important in my mind than something that can be described as cyclical because it has a beginning and an end is in fact somewhat ridiculous. Cycles in life are not black and white. I've gone through many phases in my religious development, but I can't just defend it as a cycle because it had a beginning and an end. The only real use I see for cycles is in dreaming about the stars and planets. I mean this is where they are really beautifully plain. If I wished to jump off of one planet and travel to another I might wait until the planets are within their closest range to one another. Conservation of energy, right? Well, life isn't timed as plainly, but there are karmic moments when the time is ripe for "reaping" or for "sowing." I don't see much point in doing both at the same time. When you're really ready to work and get yourself geared up to create or put forth your creative energy in serving mankind, this is not an especially good time to be rewarded with all sorts of pleasant awards, recognitions, and thank yous. Those periods when we reap our karmic effects may as well be postponed till we need them. Everything is good as we are productive. Well, when we really need it because of an unproductive or lull in our accomplishment, hopefully this is where our hard work will pay off. So cycles don't mean much without karma and reincarnation and those two words probably are worn out enough in our thinking. Cycles are a blind for greater truths and should be discussed with wisdom and insight. Love to all beings. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:51:53 -0400 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Upcoming Conference Post Modern Theosophical Dialogue We are planning an experimental conference to bring Theosophy to today's world. The celebration will take place Saturday and Sunday May 14 and 15 at a 400 acre ranch near Coulterville Ca., an historical gold mining town, one hour West of Yosemite National Park. This conference is being hosted by an association of Central California theosophical students. A fee of $20.00 per person would cover the vegan vegetarian food provided for the weekend. Camping on site or local hotel accommodations available, more details will be forthcoming. Please distribute this information to others who may be interested. If you plan to attend or wish more information, please post a message to Jerry Hejka-Ekins at JHE@KOKO.CSUSTAN.EDU Thanks Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 11:44:48 PDT From: jcoker (Jessica L. Coker) Subject: Who has HPB/theosophy influenced? 4/2/94 This is a question from Nancy -- Are there any present-day famous folks who are theosophists or who publicly acknowledge the influence of HPB/theosophy? I will be on a panel for White Lotus Day and my assignment is the visible influence of HPB. I would like to mention modern names or movements to add to the listing in the Cranston Bio. Einstein, Edison, Ghandi, Yeats, AE, etc. are all very impressive (also old) -- are there 1990's movers and shakers to add to the list? I had heard a rumor about the Gorbachevs being interested but don't know where to begin to track it down. Any actors? Best selling authors? Nobel Prize Winners? Singers? Politicians? I plan to shamelessly name-drop as our local members probably don't have a sense how influential HPB has been. HELP PLEASE. Thanks. Nancy Paul: I think Michael may be out of the country for a while, but You can try to reach him thru his relatives: 3315 University Ave Des Moines IA 50311-2301 Nancy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:02:32 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: 3 New Books The SUNY Press catalog for Summer/Fall 1994 publications is just out, and has three selections in the field of Theosophical history. What is most surprising is that out of 184 new titles listed in 102 pages of description, these three are on pages 1,2 and 3 of the catalog, under "General Interest." This says a lot about SUNY's commitment to the general subject area as well as to the specific books. They are (with first para of description: p. 1-- Access to Western Esotericism by Antoine Faivre This is the first systematic treatment of esotericism to appear in English. Here is also a historical survey, beginning with the Alexandrean period, of the various esoteric currents such as Christian Kabbalah, Theosophy, Alchemy, Rocicrucianism, and Hermeticism. Common characteristics of these currents is the notion of universal interdependency and the experience of spiritual transformation. The author establishes a rigorous methodology; provides clarifying definitions of such key terms as "gnosis", "theosophy", "occultism", and "Hermeticism"; and offers analysis of contemporary esotericism based on three distinct pathways. 352 pages, out in October, $19.95 paperback, $59.50 hardcover p. 2-- The Theosophical Enlightenment by Joscelyn Godwin This is an intellectual history of occult and esoteric currents in the English-speaking world from the early Romantic period to the early twentieth century. The Theosophical Society, founded in 1875 by Helena P. Blavatsky, holds a crucial position as the place where all these currents temporarily united, before again diverging. The book's ambiguous title points to the author's thesis that Theosophy owed as much to the skeptical Enlightenment of the eighteenth century as it did to the concept of spiritual enlightenment with which it is more readily associated. 480 pages, November, same prices as Faivre p. 3-- The Masters Revealed: Madame Blavatsky and the Myth of the Great White Lodge by K. Paul Johnson "The author has transferred the discussion of Blavatsky's sources from the realm of the mythical to the historical. He has given us a well-researched series of capsuled biographies of persons from whom Blavatsky learned and the nature of her relationship with each of them. His work brings reasoned conclusions into an area characterized by vituperative and polarized scholarship. He sets his limits well. He has not overstretched his mark nor made excessive claims for his conclusions."--- Hal. W. French, University of S. Carolina 320 pages, August, $16.95 paper, $49.50 hardcover From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 01:30:44 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Cycles and Unconditioned Consciousness This one is by Eldon Tucker. ---- In a study of the Esoteric Philosophy, as we consider any of our vast doctrines, we may find ourselves limited in how far we can go. We may find that we are held back by some of the ideas that we learned as we grow up, or that we are exposed to in our day-to-day life. We need to free ourselves of much mental baggage that we carry with us, baggage that puts us at a disadvantage to someone growing up in another culture. One idea that shows up in many forms is that the Infinite is the biggest finite thing, and that if one kept getting bigger and bigger, one would eventually come to it, the biggest, the highest, the most powerful thing in all of existence. A variation on the idea is that there is an ultimate perfection, but it is something that one can reach, if he kept evolving and evolving, that it is an attainable goal. A third twist on this idea is that the infinite is unknowable and beyond our experience, since it is so high, so far off, so transcendent, so perfect. A paradox may be posed to us: What happens when an immovable object is met by an irresistible force? This is only a so-called paradox. It assumes that there is such a thing as an immovable object and such a thing as an irresistible force. An immovable object cannot exist, there will always be a force strong enough to overcome its inertia. And the same for an irresistible force. The paradox attempts to endow something that is manifest, finite in nature, with an infinite attribute or power. This is not possible. Nothing *can exist* with infinite attributes. The infinite aspects of consciousness are very real, and we have them as a part of our experience. But they are just as we have said: in-finite, not-finite, beyond the conditioned existence of finite, manifested existence. Another word that might be used for *infinite* would be *unmanifest,* because that is what it is. Those attributes of life, those aspects of consciousness that deal with unconditioned existence, with the state of *non-being,* as opposed to the our finite state of *being,* are as important to our experience of life as the parts of ourselves that we are more immediately familiar with. Until we acquire a philosophical basis for considering the unconditioned states of consciousness in our thought, they will appear to us as mystical experiences, because we have not acquired the ability to articulate them. But they are not mystical, and are as real and as substantial a part of life as any other experience of live, be it eating food, talking to a friend, or reading a book. Our experience of life in the manifest world, in conditioned existence, is in and through the seven principles of consciousness, from Atman through the physical body. Our experience of life as is transcends the manifest world, in unconditioned existence, is in and through the three higher principles, numbers eight, nine, and ten, the higher triad that overshadows our existence. Consider the law of cycles. If you take a cycle and give it infinite duration, you would be making the same mistake as the people whom would say that the Infinite is the biggest thing in all existence. The mistake would be to give an infinite attribute to something that exists in the manifest or conditioned world. No cycle can *exist* that is of infinite duration, that will repeat itself forever and forever, without ever ceasing. A cycle is not a mechanical process, a mechanism that exists in the universe that persists independent of what happens. A cycle is the effect of a living being in a universe, the result of some life, and its effects are felt only as long as that being continues to exist. And that being, of however grand a stature, will cease to exist, if not sooner, then at the pralaya or dissolution of the universe in which it finds its home. Every universe, however grand, has its beginning and its end, its birth, lifetime, and death. And there is no such thing as The Universe, when speaking of the totality of all, everywhere, both in and out of existence at this moment. The name for that totality is the Boundless All, and can be considered as a Grand Fullness (*Idam* or This) or a Grand Void (*Tat* or That). There is an infinite, a perfect, a unconditioned side to the experience of life. And it is there for everything that exists. Every being comes into manifestation out of that perfection. This perfection, though, although it includes everything, all possibilities, all capabilities, all aspects of life, is still not *perfect* perfection. For us, it represents our personal experience of the nirvanic consciousness, of utter completion because of not being limited to having to make choices and take on a particular nature. But even in our unconditioned selves, we are not truly perfect. There is much more for us to learn. As our consciousness embraces the all, it is still dim, weak, and uncertain, and there is a definite extent to our effective *reach* even when in nirvana. There is a duality in us: the unconditioned, unmanifest, perfect, universal experience of non-being, on the one hand, and the conditioned, manifest, imperfect, limited experience of being, on the other. Being arises out of non-being, as a ray or projection of consciousness. We are both parts, and they are inseparable, and we have not lost our root consciousness, our basic experience of void as we take on outer life as a living human being. This duality exists in the various aspects of our world as well. With time, there is absolute time, unconditioned time, the perfect side to duration, and relative time, conditioned time, the imperfect experience of time in a particular world. Our experience of cycles is of this second type of type, the broken time *(Khandakala),* the sense of time that only exists when there are objects in activity with which to measure it by. Consider the cycle of a day. This may appear to be a fairly stable cycle. It is the cycle of a being, the earth, doing one spin on its axis. For the beings on the earth, it demarks a cycle of activity, with many active at daytime and sleeping at night. The length of a day may change over many billions of years, and as it does, the beings living on earth will adjust their lives to accord with it. We would not say that a day is a cycle that controls our activities. Rather, the day is a cycle of the world in which we live, and we synchronize our own activities, our own cycles of living to harmonize with it. When it changes, we change or we experience discord and find it harder to live. But a day is not a cycle that externally controls us; it is something in a world in which we exist that we come into cooperation and accord with. We have a relationship between us and the cycle of a greater being. It is not a situation of us being externally controlled or predestined or locked into the cycles of life on earth like two interlocking gears in a machine! A day as we know it will have its end. At some point in the distance future, our sun will have burned out and our earth will have gone away. They will have entered pralaya, dissolution, and will cease to exist. No longer existing, our particular experience of "day" will be gone as well. Other cycles will exist, and appear to be eternal, but only exist for the duration of their world or universe. They too will have their time when they come to an end. Like the beating of a heart, a cycle may continue, faithfully, for the entire duration of the life of its originator, then cease when that originator dies. Cycles, though, do not have to be synchronous, to continue at regular intervals for the entire duration of their existence. They can also be asynchronous, to happen at apparently random intervals. But regardless of their timing, they follow a universal pattern. There is a beginning, where the seeds of previous cycles sprout forth into a period of growth, activity, completeness, then withdrawal, dissolution, and death, as the cycle ends. When a cycle repeats, it is done slightly better than before, because of the previous experience brought to bear on it. And cycles can happen with different intents or purposes. The same activity is done, but under a different influence. We could be writing an article on economics for a school purpose. (The cycle is the experience of writing the article.) Then we repeat the cycle of writing an article, but this time on Theosophy, and although the steps that we go through and the writing skills that we apply may be the same, the experience that we have is entirely different. The same could be said, on a bigger scale, of the different evolutionary periods, under the rulership of different hosts of beings, collectively known as the Dhyani-Bodhisattvas and Dhyani- Buddhas. There may be different intents or purposes behind our periods of existence, and these influences greatly qualify our experience of life as members of the human lifewave. The important thing to do when considering cycles is to give up the mechanistic view, to give up picturing cycles as interlocked gears in some cosmic machine, to give up the thought that cycles are universal, absolute realities that apply everywhere, throughout all universes both big and small, and apply forever, throughout all time and times. Cycles as we know them are an aspect of conditioned existence. We should not look to them for a sense of the permanent, for a sense of order and rule to life, for a sense of peace and perfection. The permanent, the ruling order, the absolute peace and perfection can be found elsewhere, in the void, in the unmanifest, in our highest nature, the highest triad, above and beyond our conditioned selves and their experience of manifested time. We have as an integral part of our consciousness the unconditioned, the experience of abstract space and abstract time. This is not far off, imaginary, a other-worldly vision, nor is it in any way vague, tenuous, or make-believe. This part of us is as much a part of our being as our mind or any other part of our natures, and is very real and substantial in its own way. How do we understand this part of ourselves? By experiencing it. Not by trying to understand it, by trying to picture it in some other part of ourselves. We understand it by direct experience and not by indirection or analogy. Consider the feeling of being in love. Words can qualify the experience--much like the sense of smell can enhance the taste of food that is eaten--but the feeling of love is a different faculty of consciousness than the mind, than the words and ideas that we describe things with. We do not experience love just by using the words in the mind. We must evoke the feeling nature. The same is true with the higher experiences of life. We understand the experience of the void by evoking the part of our nature that has that consciousness. Thinking about it can enhance the experience, and bring a clarity of consciousness to it. But the experience is not to be had simply by playing with words in the mind. This is something where we must "do it to know it." Our highest nature must be experienced to be made real, and that experience is by the bringing of self-consciousness to what we already have as part of our conscious natures: our Highest Triad, the Auric Egg, Swabhava, and Paramatman. We experience both unconditioned time and conditioned time, both pure time and the cycles of manifest existence. We experience both finite, conditioned space and eternal, abstract space. We experience both sides of every quality to life. And we are not fully functional until we bring a balanced awareness of both sides of the Great Divide, of the Abyss, to our everyday experience. In our spiritual training, we can learn to become more aware of our inner nature. And with a solid philosophical and metaphysical basis for our experiences, one that we acquire with a study and deep contemplation of the Teachings, we can come to bring many treasures into our lives. We can enhance our living of life by the deeper, richer, more whole and complete perspective that this brings to our lives. There can be a lot more to even simple things, like drinking a glass of water or making a phone call, than we may realize! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 17:10:05 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: The Visible Influ of HPB According to Jessica L. Coker: > Paul -- did you get Michael Gomes' address I put up on the net? This is from Paul-- no clue as to your request. Yes, the address came through. Have you seen the new SUNY catalog? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 17:52:00 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: AAB\HPB Jerry H-E, I had a very busy week and even though I worked on a response to your last post a couple of times, I could not finish it. I'll send you a response to your previous message later, but I did have a few pieces of info/issues/questions that I'd like to raise right now with you: 1.Thanks to the wonderful librarian at Olcott (Elisabeth Trumpler) I got the Bowen article yesterday in the mail (alongwith 'Serpent in the Sky' by Anthony West, which I had requested). Actually I had not asked her to lend it to me but she follows our discussion on theos-roots and had enclosed it with my request for 'The Serpent..', after reading your suggestion to me to read it. If you have not mailed it to me by now, you need not do so. I read the article and understand 'where you are coming from'. BTW, the reference for the '7 meanings of occult books' that you had asked me to find is in TCF p. 110 footnote (I believe it is footnote 48 or 49). There are some references in this footnote to TSD as well, which I'd like to read (but can't) due to lack of a 'concordance'(you may like to check them out). 2.The discussion on Wesak festival and other items related to the AAB autobiography leads me to this next question: what are your impressions/opinions about AAB after having read the autobiography? It appears to me that she has written some of the most wonderful stuff alongwith some other stuff that may be questionable or speculative, as in the case of the Wesak festival. Perhaps her own writing may be somewhat less reliable as compared to what she put down with the Tibetan. I also think the same about HPB after reading your comment about the discussion of Devachan by HPB being not consistent with the Tibetan Buddhism tradition. It appears that all of these wonderful authors in the 'theosophic' tradition have made some mistakes. Seeing that you have such extensive background in HPB material (and the fact that I have the highest regard for what HPB wrote) I'd be extremely interested in a 'no holds barred' or free discussion by you of what you thought of AAB's autobiography and the person that comes through the book. 3.Have you heard of the Seth material (was it channeled by Jane Roberts?)? What do you think about it? I was reading about it in some theosophical magazine and was very curious about what type of information is contained in it. 4.I just finished reading Esoteric Buddhism by Sinnet (Wizard edition that you sent me) and am starting with '5 Years of theosophy' now. 5.There is a show called 'Ancient Prophecies' or something like that which is supposed to re-air on NBC on April 10 (Sunday). I was asked by a couple of people to watch it and I am just passing on that info to you here; it may be of interest to us all. 6.I saw your post on the 'Post Modern Theosophical Dialogue'.. best wishes for its success! And the idea of serving Vegan food is wonderful. Fraternally, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 02:23:22 -0400 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: AAB/HPB Arvind, [re. Bowen's article] AK>I read the article and understand 'where you are coming from'. > BTW, the reference for the '7 meanings of occult books' that > you had asked me to find is in TCF p. 110 footnote (I believe > it is footnote 48 or 49). There are some references in this > footnote to TSD as well, which I'd like to read (but can't) > due to lack of a 'concordance'(you may like to check them out). Your replies in the past have been so full of misreadings of what I have been trying to communicate, you might understand why I would appreciate it if you would "feed back" to me what it is that you "understand" concerning where I'm coming from. The quote I asked for was where AAB says that her books have seven keys (or meanings if you would rather). The footnote on p. 110 of TCF is of course AAB's notations of references in TSD to the seven keys in the SD. Thus, this reference doesn't answer my question. The transcriptions of these references that Brenda sent you on 3/16 are correct, so you can read them for yourself. Brenda is also correct in surmising that AAB used the 1893 edition of TSD. Since I haven't yet found my concordance, I suggest that you ask Brenda for a copy of hers. While you are at it, you might compare AAB's list (TCF p. 110 fn) with the more complete one that I posted several months ago. AAB cited all the same quotes that I used (though I had three more). If AAB had added the anthroposophical, metrical and theogonic from my list, and dropped the psychological (HPB doesn't call it a key, even in the quote AAB gave), she would have had twelve terms, instead of ten. Interesting. AK> The discussion on Wesak festival and other items related to > the AAB autobiography leads me to this next question: what > are your impressions/opinions about AAB after having read > the autobiography? It appears to me that she has written some > of the most wonderful stuff alongwith some other stuff that > may be questionable or speculative, as in the case of the > Wesak festival. Perhaps her own writing may be somewhat > less reliable as compared to what she put down with the > Tibetan. I also think the same about HPB after reading > your comment about the discussion of Devachan by HPB being > not consistent with the Tibetan Buddhism tradition. It appears > that all of these wonderful authors in the 'theosophic' > tradition have made some mistakes. Seeing that you have such > extensive background in HPB material (and the fact that I have > the highest regard for what HPB wrote) I'd be extremely > interested in a 'no holds barred' or free discussion by you > of what you thought of AAB's autobiography and the person that > comes through the book. Considering your "hypothesis" and your "objective" concerning an investigation of AAB's writings, such an inquiry (in my opinion) would be impossible to carry out in a fair, unbiased manner. With this in mind, I assume that we have shifted direction again, and the investigation is off, since we can't agree upon a methodology. Therefore, I can discuss my observations more freely without worrying about them "skewing" the investigation: My reading of the Autobiography left me with a lot of questions, most of which I felt were answerable. I felt that AAB was sincere in her belief that she was in touch with "The Tibetan" but her belief did not make it a fact, so I suspended judgement on this matter, pending further investigation. I was also quite impressed with her childhood experiences as her description is a very well written account of an upper middle class Victorian upbringing. Her divorce and plunge into poverty was also a rather common occurrence under the old marriage laws. Her experiences at Krotona, of course, was fleshed out in my reading, because of my own historical knowledge of this period. Therefore I was able to compare her attitudes and impressions of what was going on with documentation concerning what was really going on around her. In this area, I still have a lot of questions, and have been exploring them through another source. Concerning her psychic experiences: seances, telepathic communications, visions and visitations, we only know what she says concerning these experiences. The trouble with experiences of these types is that they can't be collaborated by witnesses. Also, it is well known that what one experiences psychically is highly subjective. We have no way to compare what happened with what she experienced. Since I felt that there was no inclination on her part to deceive her readers, I would conclude that AAB was of a psychic nature. The reliability of her experiences and her ability to interpret what she experienced is another question that cannot be answered just by reading her Autobiography. Like you, I also question AAB's writings concerning issues like Wesak. That is why I asked you how important Wesak is in her teachings. The source of this teaching is from Leadbeater and was part of the ES teachings during AAB's time. It should be clear to you by now that I find any clairvoyant teachings of Leadbeater questionable. I have already given you some of my reasons for taking this position. The next question, however, is whether AAB's DK also has the same teachings concerning the Wesak festival. If he does, then this throws into question the authenticity of the communications between AAB and DK. As for HPB's errors, we have to ask the same questions that we would of AAB's--where did she get the information? But it seems that the answers we get may be quite different. In TSD, HPB's references are to hundreds of books, journals, scriptures etc. It is all referenced, so in most cases, finding where she got the information is easy. We just find the book (if its available). For TCF, on the other hand, better than 90 percent of the references are to TSD. The rest are to the same Indian scriptures that HPB refers to in TSD (thus, these citations may be unacknowledged liftings from TSD. This is something I need to check out). Therefore, based upon the citations, one would guess that AAB's basic source for TCF is TSD. The complication with AAB comes with her unacknowledged usage of Leadbeater ES material. If one isn't familiar with the Leadbeater ES material (most people are not), then how can we tell which is Leadbeater and which is DK? Yes, all theosophical writers make "mistakes." The important questions are: What kind of mistakes do they make? What are the sources of their mistakes? How do the "mistakes" affect the rest of the teachings? When a student points out a passage in HPB's writings and says to me "how can HPB have made a dumb statement like that?," I know that student is on the way to becoming a real student of theosophy. Coming back to the focus of your question: What I thought of AAB's Autobiography and of the person that comes through the book--I think I have now covered your question concerning the Autobiography. As for the person that comes through--I get the image of a very sincere Christian woman who lived a very privileged first half of her life, and a very difficult and impoverished second half. I see a very psychic woman who found many personal answers though her study of Theosophy. Whether she was a "channel" for the Masters--nothing in the Autobiography convinces me one way or the other. It just leaves questions, and invites me to investigate further--as I have been doing. > 3.Have you heard of the Seth material (was it channeled by > Jane Roberts?)? What do you think about it? I was reading > about it in some theosophical magazine and was very curious > about what type of information is contained in it. I find this form of "channeling" suspect regardless of the quality of the information. Many find "Seth's" messages inspirational. Otherwise, I have no opinion. > 5.There is a show called 'Ancient Prophecies' or something like > that which is supposed to re-air on NBC on April 10 (Sunday). I > was asked by a couple of people to watch it and I am just > passing on that info to you here; it may be of interest to us > all. Thanks, but we will be out of town Sunday. Maybe it will air at a different time here. > 6.I saw your post on the 'Post Modern Theosophical Dialogue'.. > best wishes for its success! And the idea of serving Vegan > food is wonderful. It's going to be an interesting weekend. There will be activities never before done at a theosophical gathering. Fraternally Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 18:31:09 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Cycles Do Not Create Us This is by Eldon Tucker. ---- In our human existence, we experience various cycles. One is that of day and night, of waking and sleeping. In this cycle, we are active on the earth in our ordinary personality while awake here, and we are elsewhere, in higher realms, in deep sleep. There is the cycle of the year, and the seasons also affect our daily activities. Yet another cycle is that of the lunar month, with yet other influences. And there are other cycles, related to the planets and stars, of an astrological nature, that have their influences too. The word to emphasize is influence, for the cycles influence us, they qualify our experience of life. They do not define or create us, but there is an effect upon us. We participate in a cycle by being in relation to the Being that creates the cycle. Living on the earth, for example, we experience an earth day, rather than, say, a venus day or a sense of daylessness in outer space. The night time does not cause us to be different than we are in daylight hours. Rather, we adapt our behavior and lifestyle to accommodate it. We would generally choose to sleep at night and do our regular activities by day. If we were complete cut off from day and night, like living in a cave, where the sunlight did not penetrate, our sleep cycle might adjust to another time period, longer than 24 hours. But we adjust to the 24 hours, as we do to the other cycles that we participate in. We are affected by the cycles, and synchronize our activities in accord with them. Consider our astrological chart. It contains information from which we can analyze the cycles of various planets and their influences upon us. The birth chart shows the influences that set the keynote for our current incarnation. But we are not composed of those influences. The birthchart does not show what we are. It shows certain cycles in effect that each have their respective affect upon us. But we are not created by, defined by, nor controlled by the cycles that the chart reveals. We are, rather, coming into birth in a world in which these are the prevailing conditions, conditions that limit and affect what we can be and do, but do not make us whom we are. We could be any type of person, from the most primitive, unintelligent, cruel, evil, to the most sophisticated, brilliant, kind, and good. We could be any type of person, and yet be born at any particular moment. We are not prohibited from taking birth, limited to but certain points of time. We may find conditions more attractive to seek rebirth at certain times over others, but there is nothing uniquely us in any particular birthchart. If you join a theosophical group, and attend a class, the experience of the class might be affected by the other class members and the history and personality of the group. Your experience of the class may be qualified by such, but you yourself are not whom you are, defined as a person, because of attending that class. If you can get along with the group, you will have a certain experience that would be different that if some of the people or the group itself were different, and that draws out a different part of you, but you are still yourself. It is the same in coming into rebirth. The various cycles, including short-term cycles that may be signified by the astrologi- cal planets, as well as the long-term cycles measured in subraces and Root Races--these all qualify the experience of life on this earth. But you participate in the cycles, rather than are created and defined by them. The astrological planets may come and go. They may become invisible in future Root Races, and others may become visible in future times. What we observe in the heavens depends upon both the condition and state of the other planets as well as the state of humanity and the behavior of earth (Globe D) matter. The respective influences affect different parts of our nature. The basic underlying influence is of the Seven Sacred Planets, that reach us both directly and through a multitude of indirect means. These Sacred Planets are not necessarily the physical ones that we see with our modern telescopes. They are the influences of great Beings, of great Hosts of Beings, and not of the orbs of physical matter that our astronomers see. When we consider a planet, such as mercury, and say that it rules the mind and thought, it is not literally true. Rather, it signifies a particular cycle which has a keynote which affects us in that way. As long as the keynote of that cycle is manasic in nature, we can say that the cycle has an affect on our minds. But it is very possible that at other times the planetary influences are not the same, and that their keynotes may be different. The particular quality given expression in a cycle is determined by the being from whom the cycle originates. We could, for instance, read a book. It could be a romantic novel. The experience of reading that book has a certain effect on us. Later, we read a theosophical book, and experience something different. Still later, we read a computer textbook, and have a third kind of experience. The cycle of reading the book is the same, but the quality or effect of the cycle is different. The content of our experience is different, and it qualifies the cycle. And for our lifeatoms, those beings that experience us as the world in which they live, the three repetitions of the cycle were experienced in three different ways as well. Besides day and night, another cycle that we experience is that of life and death, the cycle of reincarnation. From the standpoint of the personality, it is an asynchronous cycle. There is a birth, lifetime, and death, followed by a very long time until the next rebirth, which happens under unpredictable circumstances. From the standpoint of the individuality, our lifetime on earth is one phase of a synchronous cycle. After the physical death,the human ego sleeps in devachan and the individuality or higher self can go elsewhere to do its real thing. A different story ... It is useful to note, as an aside, that as we progress in our study of the theosophical doctrines, as we find more and more truths in them, that each unfolding of our understanding brings even more unanswered questions. Things are not neatly wrapped up as we learn more. We find that we have more and more questions to puzzle over, even as we obtain certainty and clarity on much that we have considered in our studies. Yet bigger cycles than that of day and night, and that of rebirth, is the rise and fall of cultures and family races of cultures, and of yet bigger racial cycles. Eventually humanity is done with life on physical earth and moves onto another world on a higher plane for its continued existence (from Globe D to Globe E). Over great time periods on 12 such globes, of which our visible earth is but one, we pass through a Round. And there are 12 Rounds to our existence in humanity, before still greater experi- ences in higher kingdoms. Our evolution is through the kingdoms of nature, which include the Mineral, Plant, Animal, Human, and yet higher kingdoms. The type of experience in those kingdoms depends upon which stream of evolution that we are in. There are three basic streams, composed of Gods, Monads, and Atoms. The generic name for us as unique, indivisible, eternal, timeless sparks of the Divine is Monads. But depending on which stream of evolution that we are participating in, we might also be referred to as Gods or Atoms. The Gods are those beings participating in the work of world architects. The Monads are those working as the builders, taking the plans of the architects and building and fashioning things in life according to them. And the Atoms work as the materials or substances out of which life is fashioned. The cycle of rebirth, and the experience of life and its activities, is different for participants in each of these evolutionary streams. As we achieve perfection, and complete our human evolution, we will one day enter the lowest kingdom of the Dhyani-Chohans. Following the normal course of evolution, we will have gone as human builders to Dhyani-Chohanic builders. We will still be participating in the role of applying desire and thought (Kama- Manas) to the shaping and fashioning of the world. It is possible, thought, to start shifting to the work of the architects. We do so when we participate in the Hierarchy of Compassion, when we dedicate our lives to service, when we learn to function from the higher standpoint of the individuality rather than continuing to perfect our personalities. Following the process of hastened evolution, and taking the great initiations, one enters the door into the lowest Dhyani- Chohanic kingdom, becomes a Human Monad in the constitution of a Dhyani-Chohan, and in the next Planetary Manvanatara participates in the work of the Dhyani-Buddhas and Dhyani-Bodhisattvas, the work of the architects, rather than being ordinary Dhyani-Chohans. (This is a complex subject that cannot be explained in a single para- graph, and is only mentioned here in passing.) There is a dual track, then, to our spiritual evolution. Going through the cycles, we unfold the various faculties of conscious- ness and have increasingly difficult experiences. We evolve from one kingdom to the next, gaining increasing intelligence, capabili- ty, self-conscious spirituality, and eventually reach cyclic perfection, the end or completion of an evolutionary cycle through the kingdoms of nature. The first track is this passage through the kingdoms and the acquisition of faculties of consciousness and the return to our evolutionary source. The second track is the acquisition of selflessness, the development of compassion, the rising above the personal experienc- es of life to learn to love and appreciate and participate in the big picture. In this one, we go from materials, to builders, to architects. In this second track, we progress or evolve or unfold ourselves in a different manner than evolution in the ordinary sense. We are not perfecting our selves, we are rather transcending the selves, and learning to live in higher selves within. We are ultimately responsible for the beings that we are. We are not defined by the cycles that we happen to fall under (like those defined in the astrological chart). We are Buddhi, that karmic web of relationships that we create our outer selves as. Through Buddhi, we co-create the world and experience the saying that "you are your karma." In addition to creating our self through the karmic relation- ships with those individuals that we know in life, we also do so by the relationships that we experience with the creators of the cycles of life. These relationships also help define the self that we will manifest. We have a karmic relationship with them too, and are affected. There is a give and take, an interplay of life energies in a relationship with any person that we know in life. This helps define our personality in a lifetime, and we both influence or affect that other person as well as receive influences from and are affected by that person. The same is true with the high Beings and creative intelli- gences that govern and give life to our world. We enter into karmic relationships with them too, but this kind of karma could be considered group karma. And that karma also defines whom we are, and establishes living links, living bonds with us whereby we are influenced and changed. View life as an organic whole. Look for the creative intelli- gences behind things. Master life by understanding it. And understand it by understanding the great intelligences that make our world and its life possible. Like living well with a friend by knowing him well, let's know well all our Friends. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 17:17:32 PDT From: jcoker@eis.calstate.edu (Jessica L. Coker) Subject: thank you Thanks to Chris and Jerry for your replies Paul -- no I haven't seen SUNY cat yet -- I'll hunt around for it at the Press. Does Eldon -- enjoyed your posting on cycles. Bye Nancy. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 00:00:35 -0700 (PDT) From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Past and Future Do Not *Exist* This is by Eldon Tucker. ---- Animals, and to a certain extend primitive peoples, have a simple view of time. Only the present exists. The past is gone and non-existent. The future, to them, is also unreal. In modern society we have learned to control things much better. We've learned to become accountable for the past and to carefully plan for the future. If we do something bad, it may now be in the past, but we still know that we'll be punished for it, and that thought affects our decision to take the action. And we know that if we plan our actions carefully, our future rewards are greater. Giving value to the lasting consequences of the past, and to the rewards or suffering that the future may bring, depending upon our attentiveness to it, we assume more responsibility for ourselves as beings existing in time. This added responsibility brings a greater sense of clarity to our activities on this world, our physical-plane Globe D events in life. We may sleep less, take on more responsibilities, and concern ourselves more with what we do and what is happening about us. The past takes on more of a sense of reality as we keep records, journals, diaries, and take pictures, and surround us with materials that help us remember and picture in our imagination what has happened. The future also takes on more of a sense of reality as we make detailed plans and schedules which we may subsequently try to live by. We may be under great pressure to finish certain things quickly, by some deadline, or burdened with a great number of responsibilities that we have to tend to, with too little time to do them justice. And we look forward, and try to arrange our upcoming activities to keep our live in order. Contrast this with a primitive lifestyle. Picture a life on a little farm in Mexico, where one day is like the next, and there are no schedules, no pressures, no burden of responsibilities. We may have to keep ourselves fed, and to follow the regular routine of life, but it seems timeless, eternal, because it is always the same, without change, for as long as we can remember. This secluded lifestyle allows one to disengage from life on this world. We are not as heavily invested in life and activities, but we rather just peacefully get by. We are not caught up in the flux of the human lifewave, of the great evolutionary sweeps of consciousness that drive the cultures and challenge us to our limits. In this isolated Mexican life, we are more free of existence on this earth, more loosely engaged in life here, and able to bring a bit of the rest of the devachanic consciousness. It may be necessary for us to disengage from the intense activities of life in the active subraces, the dominant cultures of our age. We may need a time of quiet, of peace, of rest, to reconnect to our spiritual roots within. And this may be a few years, or even a lifetime away from the mainstream. But eventually we come back, and resume our participation in the drama of human life. In this peaceful haven, we have less pressure to be aware of the past and of the future. The sense of time is more simply just that of the present. It needs nothing more. And it is fine, we can exist and live good, noble lives. But for evolution to take place, there needs to be growth, change, and challenge in our lives. We need the pressure of many things happening, the intensity of activities that makes us intensely aware of both a sense of the past and the future. The present is not sufficient to let us get by. If we are not careful, though, we can even get so caught up in what has happened, or in planning for the future, that we pay but scant attention to the present. We may be reliving an event in our past--be it horrifying or wonderful--or dreaming of things to come, and impatiently waiting for them to hurry up and happen! This would not be good, though, and we would be neglecting the challenge for growth in our lives. We live in the Kali Yuga, called the Iron Age, a period of intense existence where things are hard, where they come quickly, and where the most rapid evolution is possible. It comes as the last ten percent of a great cycle of evolution called a Kalpa, and we are but 5,000 years into its 432,000 year length. During this period, we are reborn much more quickly. The Kali Yuga is considered a desirable period to be born into, because of the potential for our spiritual progress through the challenges that it offers. The intensity of life that we experience in the major cultures of our world come from it. The cultures take on the nature of the Kali Yuga, and we can join them and participate in it, or step away, and live in isolation. Coming back to the sense of time, do we really, in our culture, have a better understanding of time than primitive peoples? No, not really. We are better able to plan things and to handle a complex lifestyle, but we are not necessarily more clear about what we are doing at any particular moment, more clear in our experience of the present. And our philosophical understanding of time may be farther from the truth that primitive ideas, because of various popular misconceptions that we have been brought up with. We can observe objects or beings change over time. We can describe that change mathematically. For instance, we can plot the equation for a flying baseball, showing over time its position in the school yard. In our graph of the baseball, one coordinate represents time, but does this mean that time is a dimension of space, because it can be graphed like space can? Does every moment of time represented on that graph exist, all at once, like every point of space across the schoolyard? No. When we talk about the flight of the baseball in the abstract, we are referring to the space of the actual schoolyard, and comparing it to abstract time, a time that could start at any moment and would always follow the same course. We are comparing actual or manifested space with abstract time, when we are talking about the graph in a general sense. When we talk about the actual fight of the baseball, the particular one that we might consider, then it is different. There is the actual space of the schoolyard, and an actual period of time where a real baseball is in flight. But even then, the entire graph is not true all at once. During the time of the flight, the part of the flight that has happened, that represents the past, is a description of where the baseball has been. It is describing a sequence of state changes that the specific baseball has undergone. The baseball is a dynamic thing. It is in flight. It is subject to the influence of the strike of the bat, and it will only follow the trajectory unless there are other influences that could change its path. It is not predestined to follow the graph that we might use to predict where it will be. Soon the baseball has completed its flight, and has fallen to the ground. Its trajectory, its experience of the flight, the experience of the players in watching it fly--these are all things of the past. They no longer exist. The graph has gone from a prediction, to a dynamic document, describing the present, to a historic document. Even with this real flight of a particular baseball, there was no point in time when the entire graph was real, when the entire time coordinate existed at once. We have a dynamic succession of changes of state, but no timeline extending into the past and future. The fact that we can plot different states of an object over time does not mean that the past and future are equally real, and that all are a continuum. It does not mean that there is such a thing as a dimension of time. One difference, for instance, is that time is not reversible. Individual beings cannot move freely backwards or forwards in time. Two reasons why this cannot happen is that we are both the sum total of all our past experiences, and that we are ultimately composed of that karmic web of currently existing relationships that we have created with the other beings in life. If we went into the past, if we were able to undertake time travel, we would have to have a personal time dimension, one that existed apart from the collective one for everyone else. For instance, day 14,601 in your life might be lived in June 10, 1995, and day 14,602 in your life lived in June 17, 1774, after you had travelled back in time. But assuming everyone else stayed in place as a movie that you could rewind and alter at your discretion is not reasonable. The other reason that this cannot happen is that you are ultimately composed of all your karmic links with others. At any point in historic time, there is a particular way which everyone else is, and a particular state of those living links with you. And those links uniquely define you for that moment. So if you were able somehow to go back to 450 BC, the only you of that time that could possible be would be the one that you already had been at that moment. There are mentions of the dimension of time, though, but the references are likely veiled references to deeper teachings. Consider the picture given by Blavatsky of a bar of metal being dropped into the ocean. [*Secret Doctrine,* I, 37.] The you that exists in time is described as the cross-section of the bar that passes through the ocean's surface, as the bar drops. It appears to change over time, but is really all one thing. It would not be correct to say that this means that the past and future are equally real with the present, but rather that there is a deeper truth to this analogy. The analogy is more useful when you take it as saying that you are greater than that part of you that exists at the moment, that you are the three-dimensional bar rather than the two-dimensional cross-section being manifested (in space and time) at the moment. You are your totality of the moment, your Auric Egg, the *bar* above and beyond the manifested self or *cross-section* that you have brought forth at this moment in time. When the bar is not passing the ocean surface, you are out of manifestation, but still whole and complete. And when the bar crosses the ocean's surface, it can do so at any angle, it can stop and reverse its direction many times, and it can go through many cross-sections. There is not a specific sense of a single flow of time to the experience. The idea of time as a dimension like space is a false analogy. Even if we could reverse the physical processes of one's outer forms and make it appear to be moving backwards in time, because everything in it is going in reverse, it is not going backwards. For there is still you, the Monad, above and beyond existence, moving forward in time with the rest of us. Reversing your physical processes does not take you to an external, objective, actual world of a day ago, of some time in the past, for there is no such place. It is not possible to totally reverse things, because you are intimately interlinked with all of life, and you could not reverse everything else, everywhere else, to go with you. And even could you, there is no such place as the past as somewhere to go, as somewhere different than the present as a place where we are at this moment. At this moment in time, there is not also our world as it were 100 years ago, equally existing now and as a place we could time travel to. The past has to die totally, at some point, to make room for the present to be born. The past is really a condition or affect that qualifies our existence in the eternal now. And it is not separable from the present. You are what you've done and made your self to this moment, and the past is not external to that self that you are. The future is not separate either. It qualifies the experience of life by your awareness of upcoming changes and by your participation in the changes through your planning and preparations. You change what you do today to better optimize what happens in your life. You make take delayed gratification, withholding some pleasure in life until a later time, for the better good of your life. When you do this, you are not as much experiencing or creating the future as you are working in the process of sequences the events that appear in your life. The past eventually fades, and is recycled and eventually disappears. Nothing, though, is lost; it becomes a part of us. And the future, as we look farther and farther ahead, eventually appears to disappear as well. This is because it looses its effect on the present as well, as it becomes more distant in time. When we plot the change over time of something in life, like the growth of a flower from a springtime bulb to its blossom and eventual demise, we show there is an order or sequence to its unfolding and we gage it by the cycles of day and year. There is a natural progression to that growth, which is itself a certain kind of cycle. But every point of time along the way as the flower grows *does not exist* at once. There is the pattern and an individual attempt to follow and grow by it, but no guarantee of success. As we unfold spiritually, we find an increasing sense of the past and the future in our lives. We find that we are affected more by things out of the distant past and are concerned and affected more by things in our distant evolutionary future. The sense of time of greater cycles than a day or lifetime begin to affect us. We begin to appreciate and be moved by our spiritual roots in the distant past, and to be drawn to participate in the grand work of bringing humanity to liberation, to bringing everyone to the other shore, to nirvana. We feel a real concern with things far removed from our immediate needs of physical survival in the world and personal interactions in the day-to-day life. In doing so, we begin to participate in our consciousness in greater cycles than before, cycles of far vaster time periods and more far-reaching affects. We begin to grow and expand and evolve, and become something greater than before. Let us not try to escape time, to shy away from the Kali Yuga and seek the Timeless in the wrong place, in the temporal world, but rather emerse ourselves in the grand cycles of life, and participate in life to the fullest. Let us embrace in our consciousness as much of our heritage and our destiny and we can, to our fullest extent and reach, and then bring this broader, this grander perspective into our lives. There is only the present, but we can make it as big or as small a present as we choose. Let us make it a wonderful, grand, full present, as we give expression to the loftiness that we can take into our lives! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: full moon meditations This is by Brenda. One (somewhat secret) advantage to having two diverse opinions regarding the AAB books and The Arcane School is that when the young, less-seasoned theosophists get together to do full moon meditations, the older, ingrained, veterans of theosophy stay away. Would it be possible for Jerry and Arvind to describe their experiences of full moon meditations? As some of the other members of the network may also have been to full moon meditations, it might be of interest to see how closely the activities match in content. Both before and after I became a staff member at the National Headquarters in Wheaton, I attended full moon meditations that were either held at a house on the estate or within the library or lecture hall of the T.S. Most of the meditations attracted about 25 young people and we would sit in a circle, begin the evening with three Oms and after a short meditation with a seed thought, we would begin an activity designed by different members of the group, so that one night we might draw mandalas, one night we might research the literature to determine which ray we thought we were, one night we might break into small discussion groups for a half hour, etc. There was rarely a presentation by a member because it was felt that this time was right for each person's involvement in group activities. Before the evening ended, the "leader" would draw a quote from the Alice Bailey writings and it was generally with reference to the particular sun sign which we were in at that particular full moon. So regardless of which sign the moon was in, the meetings progressed from Aries to Pisces and the thought would be centered in some energy expressed by and within that sign. As the older group of theosophists weren't much interested in this study, we were always left completely to our own best thought-out expression of the work which we were attempting to become involved in. I mean, the administration left us completely to ourselves as far as participation and planning. Always during the years at Olcott, some activities would be designated youth activities, but unlike the full-moon meditations, they were rarely formally planned around an interesting topic as these were. More likely than not, they would be sort of a party, with piano playing, food, and fun or an outing to a restaurant or movie. Full moon meditations were special because of the involvement at the spiritual level by meditation. So, I would say they should be encouraged if the indicators are right, they were completely left up to the creativity of the group, followed the sun sign seed-thought, brought us together at a regular, hard-to-miss time, and kept us away from the "authority" of theosophy. I mean, after all, the point was to embody the spirit of a subject in an individual way. Reaching through to the spirit behind all manifested study is vastly different than always drawing on unarguable points of definition. How can you define AAB's work by defining each separate term she ever used? How can you reach through to your highest manifest self if you aren't allowed to create who you are? Sometimes what you think is who you are and it's so pleasant that we aren't in any set, manifest, world, but one that changes depending on the variables we respond to with our existence. Do you remember ever reading the story of how an observer of a beautiful scene being painted by an artist was amazed by how an adept was able to provide his eyesight with the visual stimuli depicting an entirely different scene than that being painted (for more than just an instant, but for a limited amount of time)? Maybe the world is created like that, individually for each one, by the forces that be. I can sure think of some hellish paranoias, but the sufferers of such must just be victims of their own thought processes (etc.) for a limited amount of time. One of our members also compiled a little booklet from the AAB teachings, published by Lucis Trust, and thought it wise to keep the editorship of the book anonymous, (just signing "a student") probably due to some of the strong opinions of some of the members of the T.S. who don't hesitate to denounce you or your spiritual consciousness and who may not ever feel a sense of loyalty to a proponent of AAB's, as her organization is run differently and the two have very little blending of modern authority figures. Most people writing, lecturing, and working for theosophy would prefer to appear loyal and distant due to the fact that they may be standing for an election at some future date and some of their past work would speak loudly about where they seek their inspiration. Young people, however, are rarely as tuned into the ingraining of attitudes that goes on during many contacts with theosophists as a whole and through attendance at the events of the theosophical elect. So look at it this way, what you don't know could hurt you, but it's worth the risk and healthy to occasionally throw caution to the wind. So, try studying AAB with theosophists and take the whiplash. Other study centers study Seth, and manage to go on to bigger and better things after it all, and besides maybe you're opening your lines of communication somewhat to people who would like to be your acquaintance and simultaneously would like to qualify for the path. Studying with people is a learning process. If you have ambition toward leadership, you may choose to take different steps than you would take if you like the "sharing of spirit" with friends. I would also like to add that I had some very favorable impressions of the people who worked with the full moon meditations. Meditation does the heart and soul good. Bye. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:34:27 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Conditioned and Abstract Time This is by Eldon Tucker ---- As with space, there is a duality to time. There is an abstract, perfect, unmanifest side to time, and an conditioned, limited, manifested side. As individual Monads, we have a *person- al* experience of both. This experience is one that happens in our consciousness, and does not depend upon our state of being. We do not have to be dead, disembodied, and away from manifestation in order to experience the unconditioned side to things. And we do not have to have a body to experience the limited, conditioned side of existence. Standing side-by-side with another, we could be having an experience of abstract time in our own consciousness, while the other person is only aware of his conditioned, mortal existence. What determines our experience is the focus of our awareness. If we are centered in the higher principles within, we have the higher, the unconditioned consciousness. If we are centered in our lower principles of consciousness, we are aware of the conditioned consciousness related to our current existence. In the world, there is conditioned time. Above it, and beyond the reaches of the world, in the deep silence that surrounds things, there is unconditioned time, abstract time. But it does not stop there. Yet higher is Timelessness, but still in relation to time, looking down upon it, standing as an Ideal to our existence throughout the sweep of time. And a second step higher is Perfection, without any relation- ship to the lower, to temporal existence, being too perfect to need to relate to anything or participate in the drama of life. And this is part of us too, the deepest part, the highest we can penetrate within before coming to an unknowable Mystery, which cannot be penetrated. When we come into manifestation in a world, we take on its sense of time, we have an experience of its cycles, of the flow of life in it. We establish relationships with its inhabitants and make karma in it, and we gather memories and build a future in it. Stepping out of the Ego, the center of consciousness that we have build for ourselves for that globe, and moving on to the next globe to experience life on another plane, we then take on a different sense of time. On the next globe, we have another Ego which we have evolved for it, and that Ego participates in the different sense of time appropriate to its own globe. As we do so, our Globe D Ego becomes dormant, inactive, asleep, without any sensation of the passage of time because it is out of time--the conditioned time of its world--for the present. Stepping into different parts of ourselves, into the Egos or centers of consciousness for the other globes as we go from one globe to the next, we find different qualities of time, of cycles, a different sense of duration that we experience. The sense of "this is the way that things are," of this is the time periods of evolution and where we are with respect to them-- this is all different in the different globes, the different worlds that we visit on the other planes. We need to give a special meaning to the word *eternity,* to put it in the proper perspective. There is no such thing as eternity, when is spoken of as an absolute forever, without end regardless of whatever universes may come and go, of whatever scale. But there is a relative, a conditioned, a manifested eternity. It would denote a time period of the existence of the world or universe, a manvanatara. This time period is as long as things can be, the finite version of *forever.* If something can exist until the end of the manvantara, it is eternal, because it has existed as long as time itself, until the end of time. When the universe ends and ceases to exist, its time goes as well, and that is the practical and actual point when the end of time happens. But this *end of time* is relative, for bigger universes still exist, with their greater senses of time. Starting with pure, abstract time, the particular way that it is cut up into cycles and made apparent in a manifested universe is uniquely personal to the universe in question. And our experience of time in that universe is based upon our relation to its grand cycles and who and what we are in that universe. Out of manifestation in that universe, we are not in relation to time, so there is no sense of what is happening. We need at least Atman, the pure sense of manifest being, in that world, in order to participate in the sense of time and duration in that world. The events of a world go on, even when you're out of existence and not there to experience them. You may come back into existence later and find that time has marched on, that things have changed and are different, that the various cycles have moved foreword since your last dip into existence. But did you miss out on something? No. Did life pass you by? No again. You always have a choice to be or not, and there is nothing to miss out on. If you are ready to manifest yourself, you are in existence somewhere, and enjoying its sense of time and its own unique feeling of the nature of eternity. Or if you are out of existence, you have been enjoying a sense of peace and perfection for a moment. When you come into existence in a world, it is there that you project your personal space for the moment. And it is there where you undergo change, experience duration, and give your personal sense of time. You take your time and space with you, and it is experienced wherever you may go or whatever you may be. The clock may be ticking away in all the many globes that you are not existing on, and it may seem as if you are missing something. But not really. Your clock is ticking too, and it is where you are, and it is what you experience of time. Nothing is missed, nothing is lost. When you come into existence in a world, your personal time, your personal clock synchronizes its beat to that of the world you are in. But leaving that world, and going elsewhere, you synchro- nize with that other place. The only time that is going on, and the only time that you need be concerned with is your personal time, and it is an important part of that stream of consciousness which you are. Looking at each world, it has its own clock, ticking at its own rate. There is no absolute clock, one by which all the rest can be measured. Just as there is no greatest space, but only the Boundless All, so there is no greatest time, but only the Eternal Now, a time that transcends all particular times and is really abstract, unconditioned time. Although there is no absolute clock, ticking away the seconds of time for the Boundless All, for a particular world there is its own time, its own clock, its own ruling cycle that governs its lifetime. And the ticking of that clock is alike to the heartbeat of that world, the steady circulation of life energies and flow of events as time unfolds. For our universe, that greater being is Brahma^, with a lifetime of 311,040 billion years. One day in His life is called a Planetary Manvantara. Including the night, it is 8,640,000,000 years, and constitutes the period of evolution for us in the human kingdom. It marks off a great evolutionary period. This entire lifetime is a mahamanvantara, and even across it, to the next lifetime of Brahma^, our unmanifest part, our Auric Egg, contains seeds of karma, the essence of the experiences of our previous existences. For the Auric Egg, as an unmanifest principle, exists in unconditioned space and abstract time, it is unaffected by the cyclic appearances and disappearances of the manifold universes on the waters of space. We can further understand time by making some comparisons to space. There is the particular space of our earth, of our solar system, our galaxy, and known universe. There are unique spaces to every world and universe, existing at greater and greater scales of being. Taking one such world, we can define a coordinate system, and give an object the frame of reference of that world. We thereby are able to give that object position and velocity. Without that frame of reference, there is nothing to compare to, so we could not say that the object had any particular position or motion. By taking the space of a particular world, we are able to cut out and measure space, we have a particular, finite, manifested space to contain finite objects, objects that come into manifesta- tion. In a bigger world, we have a bigger frame of reference, and find that what we thought was the absolute standard, the absolute coordinate system, is only one of many subspaces in a bigger scheme of things. And when our world goes away, when it ceases to exist, all is not gone, for the bigger space is still there, and the Skandhas of the world that was, the world that has entered pralaya, return to their respective places in that bigger space. The same is true for time. We have a time for the earth, for the solar system, the galaxy, and so forth. We can define a sense of time, the particular eternity, the reality of things, using a particular frame of reference. We thereby give beings in that world a place in time and a chance to participate in the drama of evolution. Without a frame of reference for time, without a governing clock to the flow of life, we could not say that we were at any particular place in time, and there would be no way to grow and change. There would be no world of beings in flux, no world of beings to interact with and be changed thereby. In yet a bigger world, we have a bigger time, a bigger clock to measure time by, and we find that what we thought was an absolute standard is only one of many secondary schemes of life, secondary cycles of existence, secondary experiences of time in a bigger scheme of things. And when the world goes away, all is not gone, time does not stop. All does not stop because that bigger clock is still ticking, and the experiences are still possible apart from the world that has been, whose clock is now gone, keeping pace with the heartbeat of its parent universe. Looking about us, we can see ourselves existing in a Golden Tree of Life. Beyond any manifest universe hosting us is yet a higher one, without end, without a top--it is a Golden Tree rooted in abstract eternity. And it's time is kept by a Grand Clock--a time that is beyond all measure. For beyond the time of any universe is the time of its parent universe. And beyond that yet another more grand time still, also without end. Anywhere along these grand trees should a universe cease to exist, we still continue to exist. We are simply left in its parent's time and space. There is never a time when we are totally orphaned and entirely cease to exist. Life exists, and always will. And it is grand beyond measure. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:41:22 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: AAB/HPB Hi Jerry H-E, > Your replies in the past have been so full of misreadings of > what I have been trying to communicate, you might understand why > I would appreciate it if you would "feed back" to me what it is > that you "understand" concerning where I'm coming from. Here are the main points mentioned in the Bowen article (I donot have the article in front of me and am writing below the main points I remember): (a)The most important part of TSD is the three propositions in the Proem. Reading TSD page after page (in the usual manner of reading ordinary books from the first page to the last page serially) is not recommended; instead HPB recommended reading the Proem, followed by the chapters on Summaries of the various sections of the two (original) volumes, and finally the rest of the material. (b)SD cannot be communicated using books. In other words esoteric knowledge cannot be gained just by reading a book, not even if it happens to be TSD. TSD only points towards SD. Mere reading of TSD is not enough to understand SD. SD can only be known through intuition; study of TSD can help in this process. I think when you say that you understand SD on seven levels, you mean that you understand intuitively what the seven keys are. This capability probably has taken you a lot of effort to acquire and it is a great privilege for me to have the opportunity to learn from you. > > The quote I asked for was where AAB says that her books have > seven keys (or meanings if you would rather). The footnote on p. > 110 of TCF is of course AAB's notations of references in TSD to > the seven keys in the SD. Thus, this reference doesn't answer my > question. The transcriptions of these references that Brenda > sent you on 3/16 are correct, so you can read them for yourself. > Brenda is also correct in surmising that AAB used the 1893 > edition of TSD. Since I haven't yet found my concordance, I > suggest that you ask Brenda for a copy of hers. (a)Brenda, if you are reading this, will you please send me a copy of your concordance? My address is as follows: Arvind Kumar, 3024 Landershire Ln, Plano TX 75023-8008. (b)I sort of remember reading somewhere (or at least hearing from some of AAB's long time students) that each of the AAB/DK books has seven levels of interpretation. I'll look some more. > > While you are at it, you might compare AAB's list (TCF p. > 110 fn) with the more complete one that I posted several months > ago. AAB cited all the same quotes that I used (though I had > three more). If AAB had added the anthroposophical, metrical and > theogonic from my list, and dropped the psychological (HPB > doesn't call it a key, even in the quote AAB gave), she would > have had twelve terms, instead of ten. Interesting. > Yes, this is very interesting. It shows the rather thorough nature of your study/research of TSD. > > Considering your "hypothesis" and your "objective" > concerning an investigation of AAB's writings, such an inquiry > (in my opinion) would be impossible to carry out in a fair, > unbiased manner. With this in mind, I assume that we have > shifted direction again, and the investigation is off, since we > can't agree upon a methodology. Therefore, I can discuss my > observations more freely without worrying about them "skewing" > the investigation: It seems very hard to do a 'pure' investigation along the lines that you had originally suggested, due to (a)the nature of 'non real time' internet communication, (b)the rather substantial claims of others on the time we have available, (c)my rather heavy 'to-read' list, which has a priority which is different from what may be required to undertake this study, (d)my need to ask you questions which may be 'out of turn' as far as the investigation is concerned, as illustrated by the questions that I just posed regarding your impression of AAB. I propose that we continue this dialog anyways, perhaps without any preconditions or even methodology, and consider it just an 'information sharing' project for now! > > My reading of the Autobiography left me with a lot of > questions, most of which I felt were answerable. I felt that AAB > was sincere in her belief that she was in touch with "The > Tibetan" but her belief did not make it a fact, so I suspended > judgement on this matter, pending further investigation. I understand! > > I was also quite impressed with her childhood experiences as > her description is a very well written account of an upper middle > class Victorian upbringing. Her divorce and plunge into poverty > was also a rather common occurrence under the old marriage laws. > > Her experiences at Krotona, of course, was fleshed out in my > reading, because of my own historical knowledge of this period. > Therefore I was able to compare her attitudes and impressions of > what was going on with documentation concerning what was really > going on around her. In this area, I still have a lot of > questions, and have been exploring them through another source. Tell me more about this other source, and the results of your work, as and when you get any. > > Concerning her psychic experiences: seances, telepathic > communications, visions and visitations, we only know what she > says concerning these experiences. The trouble with experiences > of these types is that they can't be collaborated by witnesses. > Also, it is well known that what one experiences psychically is > highly subjective. We have no way to compare what happened with > what she experienced. Since I felt that there was no inclination > on her part to deceive her readers, I would conclude that AAB was > of a psychic nature. The reliability of her experiences and her > ability to interpret what she experienced is another question > that cannot be answered just by reading her Autobiography. I agree with you regarding AAB being a psychic or a 'sensitive' but looking at the warnings throughout her books against awakening the psychic faculties prematurely, and the quality of her writing, I tend to believe that she was certainly no ordinary 'channeler'. > > Like you, I also question AAB's writings concerning issues > like Wesak. That is why I asked you how important Wesak is in > her teachings. The source of this teaching is from Leadbeater > and was part of the ES teachings during AAB's time. It should be > clear to you by now that I find any clairvoyant teachings of > Leadbeater questionable. I have already given you some of my > reasons for taking this position. The next question, however, is > whether AAB's DK also has the same teachings concerning the Wesak > festival. If he does, then this throws into question the > authenticity of the communications between AAB and DK. As far as I know, the description of the ceremony involving the Lord Buddha is only in AAB's own writing, and is not a part of one of the DK books. > > As for HPB's errors, we have to ask the same questions that > we would of AAB's--where did she get the information? But it > seems that the answers we get may be quite different. In TSD, > HPB's references are to hundreds of books, journals, scriptures > etc. It is all referenced, so in most cases, finding where she > got the information is easy. We just find the book (if its > available). For TCF, on the other hand, better than 90 percent > of the references are to TSD. The rest are to the same Indian > scriptures that HPB refers to in TSD (thus, these citations may > be unacknowledged liftings from TSD. This is something I need to > check out). Therefore, based upon the citations, one would guess > that AAB's basic source for TCF is TSD. The complication with > AAB comes with her unacknowledged usage of Leadbeater ES > material. If one isn't familiar with the Leadbeater ES material > (most people are not), then how can we tell which is Leadbeater > and which is DK? You are right, only someone who has studied Leadbeater in depth can sort this out. Perhaps we will get help from Brenda or others reading this dialog who may be familiar with CWL's writings. > > Yes, all theosophical writers make "mistakes." The > important questions are: What kind of mistakes do they make? > What are the sources of their mistakes? How do the "mistakes" > affect the rest of the teachings? When a student points out a > passage in HPB's writings and says to me "how can HPB have made a > dumb statement like that?," I know that student is on the way to > becoming a real student of theosophy. Yes, we need to question everything and not just accept what someone else is saying, even if others claim that he or she is a high initiate! > > Coming back to the focus of your question: What I thought of > AAB's Autobiography and of the person that comes through the > book--I think I have now covered your question concerning the > Autobiography. As for the person that comes through--I get the > image of a very sincere Christian woman who lived a very > privileged first half of her life, and a very difficult and > impoverished second half. I see a very psychic woman who found > many personal answers though her study of Theosophy. Whether she > was a "channel" for the Masters--nothing in the Autobiography > convinces me one way or the other. It just leaves questions, > and invites me to investigate further--as I have been doing. I think yours is the only 'well-reasoned' answer that I have got from non-AAB students that shows why someone may be reluctant to accept AAB teachings! Through this dialog I have become a whole lot more skeptical than I have ever been!! That is why I am wanting to read HPB before I go on to read TCF and possibly the rest of the AAB books. > > I find this form of "channeling" suspect regardless of the > quality of the information. Many find "Seth's" messages > inspirational. Otherwise, I have no opinion. > You may be interested in the following excerpt that I saw on the Seth teachings elsewhere on Internet: >> - Re-incarnation. Instead of a linear progression of incarnations, all our reincarnations exist at once. It appears linear due to the way we have focused our consciousness. >> - Cause and effect. It occurs because of foundation beliefs we all hold on the nature of physical reality. But these beliefs can be changed if you believe strongly enough against it: e.g. if you believe a mountain will move, it will. >> - Enlightenment. Gnothi Seaton, Know Thyself. However, Seth claims that the path too enlightment need not be of serious moment with serious faces. In fact, one way to enlightment is: "If it ain't fun, don't do it". >> - Inherent existing self. We are multimensional personalities, that is, we are far more than we are consciously aware of at present. This includes the subconscious and unconscious strata's of our being, and the super inner self that includes all past-future incarnations, etc. We are Gods, couched in creaturehood. >> - Ultimate reality. There is no ultimate reality. God (or All-That-Is) is not all done and finished and never will be. All-That-Is is in an infinite State of Becoming that is occuring Now. Perfection implies a dead end, where all is done and completed, and that is not the nature of All-That-Is. There is no ultimate anything for that would imply perfection and completeness. > > > 5.There is a show called 'Ancient Prophecies' or something like > > that which is supposed to re-air on NBC on April 10 (Sunday). I > > was asked by a couple of people to watch it and I am just > > passing on that info to you here; it may be of interest to us > > all. > > Thanks, but we will be out of town Sunday. Maybe it will air > at a different time here. The show was somewhat shocking, to put it mildly. It consisted of segments on Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus and a living 'prophet' by the name of Gordon-Michael Scallion, who apparently has been rather accurately predicting the recent 'earth changes' (e.g. hurricane Andrew, the LA quakes, midwest flooding). He claims that there will be major changes in the geography and the economy of the US between now and 2001. In particular, I am very concerned about his prediction that California will become the 'islands of California'. There is a toll free number (1-800-628-7493) where anyone can reach the Matrix Institute which he has founded, and order 'the Map of the (new) US' as well as a Video on his predictions and also subscribe to his monthly newsletter called 'the Earth Changes Report'(ECR). I just yesterday ordered a copy of the map and a couple of other things! You definitely need to look into it (if nothing else, get a copy of the latest newsletter for $5.00). If you already know about him, let me know what you think. My response to your previous message (the one on Full moon festivals etc.) got mysteriously deleted from my Workstation so I'll have to start all over agin to put in my replies to that one. Things are pretty hectic at my workplace right now! I hope you are in a better situation than before, as far as workload at the University. Fraternally, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 16:40:55 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: belief vs. purification This is by Brenda. The rites of purification are tremendously satisfying in some regards. They produce an air about a person that is hard to pass by without noticing. It is a form of work that does not require outright speech, espousal of great principles, or description of the steps necessary to live the life of discipleship. I don't have to share the great truth of the "path" in order to perform purifications in the atmosphere, etc. Through using purification meditations I have noticed changes in my daily interactions with others. There is a more positive sense of well-being, more order, more inner activity, more blessedness, and more adherence to powerful concepts of living, such as harmony, healing, and light. But when I neglect to perform these meditations, the well-ordered living returns to inner chaos, loss of control over my interactions, and a return to negativity. While I accept and appreciate the way these laws works through mental matter, I am also very quick to call to mind my well-learned exercises at the first hint of difficulty, at the first sign of anyone needing assistance or stumbling over obstacles. This is exactly what happened when I heard about the difficulty my friend was having because of a houseguest. Here is the scene: a husband and wife, both M.D.s, with two young girls ages seven and nine, who are very devout Muslims born and raised in Syria and currently working in Ohio. If you understand some of the implications of the Islamic community life, you might be aware that for entertainment friends come over, spend a weekend or a few days camping, and are enriched by the hours, visiting, cooking, child-rearing, and telling stories. Well, this particular "first" invitation to a couple they had met through the hospital they both work at, held a few surprises. Not only was the guest room left in disarray, the food refused, and the company generally repelled to the planned activities of cooking and eating and straightening, but they actually produced their bag of marijuana and rolled a cigarette. When the host objected to drugs in his house and in front of his girls, the guests wondered couldn't the girls leave, which greatly insulting the young doctor. Well, after the weekend the two had to continue working together only with less regard for one another, even to the extent that she criticized the doctors for living so simply and for not even spending on refined furnishings, a housekeeper, or the usual decorations, art, and frill found in designer homes. Well, besides the many oversees visits, the two cars, the RV, education, clothes, and gifts of money (devout Muslims give away 3% of their income to people in need or charities) they spent enough to live comfortably and were well-liked because of their generous nature and fierce good will to those who were less fortunate. You may not be one to leave their home with decorating ideas, but you usually left a better person than you went in or with fewer troubles or with greater understanding of your troubles or the world's troubles. In fact this is the lesson which their weekend provided them with. Of course the drug incident added an especially beastly side to the affair, which is where I sought to provide assistance through my simple, but sometimes effective, purification rites. My initial reaction was to release them from the rather degrading and insulting side of the affair so that they could resume normal activities. Instead of interest in this purification fascination of mine, however, they provided me with another worthwhile tactic which may surpass the one I am so in the habit of trying. BELIEF. They not only believe in the goodness of each human heart, but their belief in God is such that they are able to interpret the experiences in their life as signals to their own inner and outer actions. For instance, we all plan to improve ourselves eventually when the time is right, but how many people would be alert to the signs and signals that change is upon them, that the time is imminent. We prefer to choose our own time for convenience, economics, whatever, but if they are faced with a dilemma like the one above, they believe so strongly in this form of communication of spirit that they make all about them believers and participators in belief, too. Maybe this somewhat impressive and somewhat qualified person hasn't had time to formalize their beliefs into a system of practice or to even sort out what is believable and what isn't. In any event, even with some of the beliefs in the right place, the measure of how we live doesn't always embody what we believe to be true. At heart, the guests may be going where experience takes them, and by meeting my two doctor friends, they certainly may have been faced with a new kind of faith, an all-inclusive faith, one that includes communication from the divine, one that is a living faith, that reaches into their very soul and makes them think through what life is all about while doing the actual living. The lesson I'm afforded with is that Right Belief certainly comes before any keen interest in purification, and I can only sensibly see purification as the result of Right Belief. In this kind of case, the involvement of the character of the person as a spiritual being is so obvious that purification would not only be the wrong route to take, but would be largely ineffective in accomplishing any kind of change within a person which would be lasting. Belief and the accompanying lifestyle are much more capable of catching the ray of light and reflecting it in a purposeful manner and my own beliefs, when held strongly enough and seen manifesting through all life, might very well stimulate a similar process in someone else. While I admit that their custom of visiting and socializing may be looked down on somewhat by average Americans, I wish Islamics could change our society instead of our society changing them. Besides when you know people only at the hospital so long (the wife wears the scarf over her head signifying a spiritual life), you miss the fun-loving, caring, side of an individual, which is evident in the home, with the children, especially with the way they teach and interact with the children, and performing the mundane tasks of home life, and evident when she feels the freedom to be a friend, wife, and mother casually at home. We give our free time to the things that are important to us: reaching out, facing that divine center within and asking for its expression more fully in life. This story was like an early morning hour dream and never really played itself on the physical plane as far as I know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:35:22 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: Full moon meditations > Would it be possible for Jerry and Arvind to describe their > experiences of full moon meditations? As some of the other members > of the network may also have been to full moon meditations, it might > be of interest to see how closely the activities match in content. Hi Brenda/Jerry H-E/ Jim M. and everyone on th, I have participated in several full moon meditations organized by various Bailey groups. My experience has been generally very uplifting. There is a lot of warmth and goodwill present on these occasions. I should point out that Bailey has predicted that the twelve periods of full moon during the calendar year will eventually become 'the twelve spiritual festivals', celebrated by all of humanity, when the new world religion based on invocation and evocation becomes a reality. And Humanity has the power to determine as to when that happens, for it will come about 'when men themselves have pulled down the separating walls and have removed the barriers between man and man, nation and nation, religion and religion, and race and race." Your attitude when you go to attend these festivals determines how much you 'get out of them'! For me, I never have experienced what people call a 'subjective, inner state' where you work with an 'inner group' consciously (as described for example in AAB's biography or by CWL in 'Masters and the Path' in the part describing the famous ceremony in the Himalayas on the occasion of Wesak). What I have experienced is a sort of inner alignment, a feeling of joy/contentedness and an assurance that 'all is ok with this world!' I should also mention that it is recommended in the Bailey books that there be no 'socialization' on these occasions; there is no food served. People come together at an appointed time, do the work of meditation according to an outline recommended by Bailey, and go back in peace and quiet. There are several groups in the Dallas/Fortworth area that engage in full moon/new moon meditations. Jim Meier had asked me for the address of a local place in D/FW area where such meetings take place, and I am giving it here: The School of Ageless Wisdom, 6005 Royal Oak Drive, Arlington TX 76016. Phone : 817 654 1018 (Metro) Contact : Gloria Crook You can also get on the mailing list for Gloria's monthly newsletter called 'Cycles' which focuses on the 'energies' coming through at the time of the particular full moon for that month. I myself have been doing my full/new moon 'meditations' by myself at my home. For full moon, I put on a video prepared by Lucis Trust, which lasts for 30-45 minutes and then I follow the outline of meditation provided by Lucis. It is a period when I consciously direct my thoughts towards concepts that deal primarily with the bringing about of increased goodwill, love and peace on Earth. I am also reproducing below an item that I saw on talk.religion,newage for those who may be interested. Fraternally, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 11:52:52 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: Leftover Message Here is the part that got left out of my message of yesterday/Arvind THREE SPIRITUAL FESTIVALS Each year, 3 full-moon meditation festivals in the spring offer a window of opportunity to utilize powerful spiritual energies to inspire humanity and bless the planet. A gigantic group meditation is going on in different phases on our planet. All meditating units and reflective groups are related to each other through unity of spiritual motive. They are seeking closer cooperation and endeavoring to bring their meditation work, consciously or unconsciously, into a state of universal quiet, so that the formulation of spiritual desire can be carried successfully forward, and the reception of spiritual energies can be a *united reception*. There will be group meditations in the New York City area, at the Loews New York Hotel (Penthouse), 569 Lexington Avenue at 51st Street, New York NY. All meetings will begin promptly and last approximately 1 hour. Times for the NY meetings are: Sat. 3/26 3:00 pm; Sun. 4/24 4:00 pm; Tues.5/24 7:00 pm. If you are unable to meet with the NY group or a group locally in your area, you can participate by joining in at home. Know that you add your awareness and energy to these important annual events. THE EASTER FESTIVAL The Aries Full Moon Saturday, March 27, 1994, 6:11 am EST THE WESAK FESTIVAL The Taurus Full Moon Sunday, April 25, 1994, 3:46 pm EDT THE CHRIST'S FESTIVAL and WORLD INVOCATION DAY The Gemini Full Moon Tuesday, May 24, 1994, 11:40 pm EDT A paper on the significance of the three spiritual festivals is available on request; also a booklet on meditation at the full moon. Further information can be found in the books THE REAPPEARANCE OF THE CHRIST and DISCIPLESHIP IN THE NEW AGE, VOL.II, by Alice A. Bailey. LUCIS TRUST 113 University Place, 11th Floor PO BOX 722, Cooper Station New York NY 10276 (212) 982-8770 e-mail: PColes@IGC.APC.ORG Posted by persmission from Lucis Trust. Please direct all communications to Lucis Trust at the above address. | cbwillis@netcom.com | "Values are the infrastructure | | (408) 734-9110 | upon which civilization | | | will be reinvented." -- CBW | From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 12:51:43 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Leftover Message Hi Arvind-- This isn't really about your message but I have been meaning to tell you-- A couple months ago I vacationed in Texas, and visited some places that I would highly recommend if you care at all for outdoors adventures with spiritually uplifting atmospheres. After a visit to San Antonio we (I was with a friend from DC and one from Houston) headed to Seminole Canyon near Del Rio. This is a spectacular site of ancient civilization, with more than a dozen well-preserved cliff paintings up to 8000 years old. They have a good museum there too. Other sites are accessible only by boat. Some of the figures appear to be depicted with auras. Another fantastic spot was Enchanted Rock near Fredericksburg, a massive formation of stone which was regarded by the Indians as a sacred place. It is easy to climb and has a very intense magnetism. Dunno whether such things interest you but thought I'd recommend checking them out. Namaste Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 12:43:48 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: Sacred Sites/Books etc. Paul, Thanks for the pointers on spots to visit in Texas. I certainly hope to visit these places as and when we get a chance. I have been following your occasional postings on other bulletin boards as well. Have you come to any conclusions regarding Radhasoamis and related groups? What are your views on CWL's teachings? Do you agree with Jerry H-E that EVERYTHING that CWL wrote is to be considered as having arisen out of CWL's imagination, with no truth in it? I am getting around to the conclusion that it may be best for me (or any beginner theosophist for that matter) to start with a thorough 'grounding' in HPB's writings and then go from there to other writings. Do you share that view? What books have influenced you the most? I recently finished viewing the tape by John Anthony West on 'the Mystery of the Sphinx' and reading his 'Serpent in the Sky' and found them fascinating, to say the least. I was surprised though at the omission of any references to HPB's statements regarding Sphinx although a rather extensive list of references/ bibliography is included in the book. Namaste, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 13:55:22 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Sacred Sites/Books etc. Greetings-- Radhasoami ended up being part of the first portion of my new manuscript, along with the Arya and Brahmo Samajes and of course the TS. The overall question was-- what were educated Indians looking for in 19th century religious movements, and how did these various groups meet the needs of the historical moment? Intertwined with this is the question of the relationships among all the groups, which in every case are substantial. As for CWL, I adhere to Tillett's theory of "unconscious kriyashakti"-- that is that CWL's belief in his visionary world was so intense that he could actually induce experiences in others that led them to believe in its reality. But also I am inclined to share the ULT/Pasadena view that he was an irresponsible psychic who muddled his perceptions with a high degree of unexamined assumptions and outright fantasy. This is not to say I don't believe in clairvoyance-- I do-- but it's a very tricky business and most susceptible to misinterpretation. As to my reading, I think Old Diary Leaves is as fundamental to my understanding of Theosophy as anything, with Caves and Jungles a close second. But that's because I'm more interested in people and their lives than in metaphysical abstractions. In most of the other early literature, historical reality is much less vivid and real than in those two books. Are you off to India soon? Namaste From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 02:46:23 -0400 From: MOYER1@applelink.apple.com (Moyer, Christopher,CLA) Subject: Any Thoughts? Howdy, all! I need some help with a project I'm working on and I don't have the requisite scholarship to make it the best it can be in any kind of reasonable timeframe. If you're game, here's the deal: The whole computer revolution has long intrigued me and in it I see a huge opportunity for Theosophy to broaden the audience for its teachings. I think the world would a better place for it. I think CD-ROM has huge potential, so that's one thought, but the kicker would be to create a video game. Think about it. Why are video games so addictive? They mirror the ultimate reality. You begin your first incarnation with no clue, no skills, and you get wasted. Time and time again you get new life, you become more skilled, more highly evolved in the world that comprises the environs of the game. I think many people respond to them because they reflect the true reality, even if it's only a subconscious appreciation. Anyway, I think the format of a video game is the perfect vehicle for teaching. A player is highly motivated to learn the rules of game's world in order to win. These games are often a welcome respite from the 10 o'clock news, so an environment where you CAN affect your future and control your environment is enormously appealing. Why do you think Rambo is so popular? That guy controls his environment. He does it violently, but you can't deny the appeal of having the ability to remove any obstacles that set you back. For anyone who thinks that Rambo is a lousy role model for people to have, I agree. But show me an equally appealing alternative. I think Mother Theresa is the living embodiment of ahimsa and is a heroic figure, but she just doesn't have the appeal of a Rambo. I want to create an environment where someone can becomesomething of a spiritual Rambo - not a psychic telepathic shoot-em-up, but something that gives immediate feedback, instant gratification for a culture that demands it. If I'm pandering to the lowest common denominator, so be it. We can sit in a spiritual ivory tower and say people should have the necessary discipline. I say if they never even hear of Theosophy, they'll never know what they're missing. I want to take it to them as mental fast food; give them a taste, but always tell them where to buy all kinds of sushi once they find they like the California roll. That's the basic concept, anyway. I have most of the tools I need: I work for a division of Apple Computer and have access to good computers, video editing equipment, morphing software, and CD-ROM authoring tools. I have a strong background in computers, I can program and do graphic design, I've been studying film-making and script writing and I have a pretty good feel for a story with a hook. I pretty much have what I need to make a pretty and polished interactive CD-ROM, so that's all set. This format also serves my goal of service to others on a large scale. A properly distributed CD-Rom can reach thousands, maybe tens of thousands. If you want to change the world, it'll probably go faster if you change big chunks at a time. As you can imagine, the catch is creating a scenario and a hero to rival Rambo in appeal and Sai Baba for divinity in action. I only have a fuzzy concept at the moment. I can digitize video clips with full sound and incorporate real life encounters into the concept of the game. A player can then make choices in response to the life situations which will then determine future life situations and preclude others. Like life, choices will create the future, so it would be conceivable for the life of the game to be completely different based on choices made early in the game. I'm toying with the concept of a spiritual toolboox containing tools such as christianity, hinduism, etc. to use as a guide for a response to a given situation or as a direction for life. I'm also interested in incorporating concepts from a book called How To Stop Crime written by a former chief of police. He maintains that crime will always be with us until we deal with the underlying problems of discrimination, poverty, and all the rest. Maybe he'd want to be digitized and spread his message. The game could react to people not acting to counter such thinking by having them be victimized by the consequences of such a world. It would be kind of like starring in your own movie, but the script is determined by your actions. That's my rough idea. I wanted to get feedback from anyone who's interested. Any better ideas out there? What concepts should be highlighted? How? Any less surreal alternatives to the spiritual toolbox? How about an ethereal master, although to me that smacks of Jiminy Cricket to the world at large, but then again, why not? If you had the power to change the world in a big way, how would you do it? How about story lines? All I have in mind at the moment are pretty obvious confrontations with gang members, the homeless, etc. Pretty obvious. Any ideas for something more subtle? How about a goal. Every good quest or adventure needs a good goal. James Bond always gets to save the world. A lot of people like to watch James Bond movies. There's always a lot at stake. If you believe Nostradamus, there's a lot at stake these days. Want to save the world? I'd love to hear your thoughts out there... Take Care, Chris From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 06:59:07 -0400 From: daratman@aol.com Subject: Game Thoughts regarding Chris Moyer's CD-Rom/Theosophy Game concept by Daniel Hampson I'm a MultiMedia Instructional Designer/Cartoonist, with experience in creating curriculum games for adults. From that perspective, let me throw out a few things.... Before we get into the characters, play parameters, world levels, animations, sounds, etc, etc, we must symbolize and visualize the Theosophical database. For every game there is an invisible, underlying structure. Let's see what that is for "The Theosophy Game". That shouldn't be too hard, because wherever you have deceit, there is a game already in play, with a specific structure and procedures. HPB herself said that all her words could be put into a few pages of geometry. That means that all her linear data is really non-sequential. It also means that she suffered greatly putting her thoughts into words, as we all do. She also admitted to lying when it was "necessary", so during the linear to geometric translation the lies must be trapped and weeded out. Hidden beneath her words are her own thought forms which were mixed with the thought forms of "Masters" (either real or imagined) and either understood or misunderstood. (Here's another sorting operation and several other levels of play). There are certain universal mathematical/geometric themes that run through any rational work. Seven, ten and twelve are popular and they make specific 2D and 3D shapes. That's handy because the codes for the shapes have already been written. So we don't have to start from scratch. Seven is musically diatonic and a spiral. Ten is pentatonic and dodecahedral. Twelve is chromatic, the perfect union of three and four, and is the "Vector Equilibrium". (They can all be connected). HPB's interpretations of Master thoughts should fit into one of these three structures or into a fourth, miscellaneous group, to be defined later. (So will the words/thoughts in most any other book based on the Table of Contents and the Index - The Contents are linear, the Index is alphabetical. Both are arbitrary.) The play grid will be defined through this process and any connections (and lack of) will be perceived. So, what have we got so far? 1. An interconnected play grid of 7, 10, 12 and misc. 2. The level of HPB's words. 2a. Other peoples interpretations of her words. 2b. Other concepts connected to interpretations. 3. The level of HPB's thoughts (unwritten, non-verbal). 4. The level(s) of the Masters' thoughts (higher?). 5. The level of the player's thoughts (lower?). 6. HPB herself and her supporting characters. 7. Enemy characters. 8. Master characters. 9. Connecting concepts, characters and games. 10. The Mysteries of the Ages. This is a game of thought, not of action. Things appear and disappear rather than blowing up. To add a little adventure maybe we should add the Earthly dimension of the geographic travels of the main characters, ala Carmen SanDiego, mixed with their romantic intrigues, ala Liesure Suit Larry. (Maybe we should just animate K. Paul Johnson's next book on CD-Rom.) Whatever shape it takes, I'd like to help visualize it. I think that just a cross-referenced CD-Rom database should be constructed first, though. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 12:51:53 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: AAB Jerry H-E, Here is my belated response to a previous 'thread'(my response was delayed as I had lost a partial reply, as I indicated before). > I'm familiar with what the Wesak festival is. I read AAB's > discussion of it in her Autobiography many years ago, and we > attended one or two of them when we lived in Los Angeles. My > question was one that asks for an evaluation on your part--how > important is the Wesak festival in the AAB teachings? The Wesak festival is considered of major importance in AAB teachings, but a belief in the ceremony as described by AAB/CWL is not a critical requirement for accepting the rest of the Bailey teachings (esp. those which are dictated by the Tibetan). > There is an extensive amount of information in HPB's > writings concerning cycles and the moon in TSD and elsewhere. I > correlated that all together about twenty years ago, and used to > teach it as part of an "esoteric astrology" module, when I taught > astrology classes in the early 70's. My reading of HPB is that > she follows the ancient idea that cycles begin with the new moon- > -not the full. Even GdeP followed this lead in his teachings, > using the new moon--not the full as the ideal starting point of > calendars and of initiation cycles. This reasoning probably has > something to do with the "pernicious influence" of the moon > mentioned in letter 15 of the Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. > As I said earlier, the Wesak festival as described in AAB's > Autobiography and in ~The Masters and the Path~ is fully > Leadbeater's teaching. You will not find this ceremony anywhere > in Tibetan Buddhism--though Leadbeater wants you to believe that > it is there, and known by the Tibetan Buddhists. > Bailey explains that the period of full moon is important because moon is 'out of the way', allowing for a direct alignment between the Sun and the Earth during this period. The period of the new moon is also considered important by AAB; new moon meditation focuses on "Discovering the Memebers of the New Group of World Servers and Strengthening their Hands". At the time of the new moon, the 'spiritual energies' coming from the Sun and the extra-plenatary sources are at a low point, hence the need to link up in spirit with other servers in an effort to 'strengthen their hands'. > > Yes, I have a copy of this or a similar pamphlet. The > description in the ~Masters and the Path~, in my opinion, is > substantially the same as the one given in AAB's Autobiography. > The Material in the ~Masters and the Path,~ including the Wesak > description, was part of Leadbeater's ES teachings (not HPB's), > and would have been easily accessible to AAB during the time of > her stay at Krotona. Since, there is no confirmation in Tibetan > Buddhist literature concerning this ceremony, my opinion is that, > Leadbeater dreamed the whole thing up--like he did so many other > teachings. Whether or not he himself believed what he taught, I > can't say for sure, though my guess is that he might have been at > least partly a victim of his own "visions." Therefore my doubts > extend far beyond whether or not Leadbeater's description of the > ceremony is accurate, I don't believe the ceremony that > Leadbeater speaks of takes place at all. If you have any > evidence to the contrary, I'm anxious to see it. > I sure donot have any evidence to corroborate Bailey/CWL description of the ceremony. I must refer here to a quote from a recent message from Paul Johnson, where he says that 'As for CWL, I adhere to Tillett's theory of "unconscious kriyashakti"-- that is that CWL's belief in his visionary world was so intense that he could actually induce experiences in others that led them to believe in its reality.' Is there not a possibility that at least some of CWL's so-called 'visionary world' was real? The 'unconscious kriyashakti' sounds to me like a power that only spiritually evolved humans have (this reminds me of the accounts of many persons who have indicated that their 'Guru touched them, and they were able to see a whole different world on the inner planes'.) It is quite possible that CWL had a lot of 'personality problems' that prevented him from expressing 100% of the 'pure light' that he was experiencing in his visions from the realm of the soul; the point is that we should not discard something as definitely 'a figment of the imagination' just because CWL wrote aboout it. If his account of something (say the Wesak ceremony) agrees with that given by another person (Bailey in the case of Wesak), I'd be willing to entertain the possibility that his account holds some truth. > > I see the situation as being much more complex then this. > For example, let us assume that HPB said nothing about the lunar > periods as you suggest here (this is not really true, but I'm > using your example to illustrate a point). But let us say that > she does give ample information concerning the role of the moon > in planetary and human evolution, as well as in symbolism and > mythology (which she indeed does). I would then take AAB's "new" > teaching concerning the moon and ask how it fits in with > everything else we know about the moon, in both HPB's teachings > and in light of modern knowledge. Thus, even though AAB's > teaching may be an "extension," there is still ample *related* > material in HPB's writings and in modern science to compare and > make an evaluation. In the light of my above explanation, can > you tell me which of HPB's teachings are AAB's "rules" supposed > to be extensions of? > I follow your position but am not in a position to answer your question on the correlation of HPB teachings with AAB rules. This is a rather tall order, for which I am not ready at the moment. As I read HPB's works, I'll hope to point out where the similarities (or differences) are. > No, I don't see it this way, for the reason I just gave > above, when we were discussing AAB's teachings on the moon. One > thing I really like about HPB is that she never puts her readers > into a position where they have to take anything on "faith > (though many readers do that anyway--but this is laziness on the > reader's part, and not HPB's fault)." If TCF is an "extension" > of TSD, then I would expect to be able to evaluate it using the > same rules that are used to evaluate HPB's writings. Is this > asking too much? > There is no doubt that the writing styles of Bailey and HPB are quite different. HPB's writing has extensive references and meets the modern day rigorous 'academic' standards whereas most AAB writing is basically written along the lines of a 'spiritual revelation', which one has to accept as a hypothesis initially (until proven by individual effort or experience). It is legitimate to ask the question as to why two different styles were chosen for the writing if the source of the teaching is the same ("DK"). I donot claim to have the answer to this question but there is speculation that HPB's writing style itself may have been an 'experiment' by the Hierarchy. Although you (and several others) prefer HPB's presentation of the material with extensive references, many others want to have the 'pure teaching' transmitted, without the burden of comparison with other (esp. 'profane') teaching or works. I myself am very interested to see verification of AAB teaching in the light of say 'Vedanta'. With that in mind, I had given a few of AAB's books ('Problems of Humanity', 'Light of the Soul') to a local Swamiji, whose cursory reaction was that it seemed very similar to the Vedanta teaching. However, neither he nor anyone else that I know has undertaken a comprehensive examination of the AAB teaching as compared to Vedanta or Buddhist literature, so a verdict must await until this is done (I have no idea when, but I am very interested in doing it if I get a chance, perhaps somewhat later on in life, possibly during an early retirement period!) > > Did I tell you that I was "irritated?" What makes you > believe that you can "read" my feelings in this text? If we had > met, and we had spent some time together, I could understand how > you might be in a position to surmise my feelings--though you > still may be incorrect. The reason this catches my interest is > because of a conversation I had last weekend at Krotona with a > friend who has been following this dialogue. She expressed her > opinion that the reason you are constantly misjudging and > misintrepreting what I write, is because you have no knowledge of > the "personality" that is behind this written text--and thus > attribute motivations and feelings that are not there. My > friend, who knows me very well, says that when she reads my text, > she also "hears" my "voice." Because she knows me as a person, > she has a "sense" of my intentions (and perhaps sometimes > feelings) that are behind the text. From reading your responses, > she is very aware that my intentions are very different than > those you often surmise. Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, I am guilty of (mis)judging your motivations and feelings, based on my experience with what comes through the writings of others and the use of the English language in general. I'll point out the words which lead me to my inference next time I sense 'feelings' coming through your e-mail. > Now, to address the main issue you raised above: Yes, a > question like "Are AAB teachings compatible with HPB teachings" > is acceptable, though I prefer the original and slightly broader > question that I originally posed: "How do HPB's and AAB's > teachings compare." The reason why I prefer the original > question is because we can look at broader issues than > "compatibility," and not be shackled into an either/or > situation. As far as your "objective," which you state is "to > ensure the compatibility of HPB and AAB teaching" this is not at > all acceptable to me. It is the same as saying--"I'm going to > investigate whether HPB's and AAB's teachings are compatible, but > there is only one acceptable conclusion that I will allow myself > to come to--which is that they are compatible." With this > "objective," why bother to make an investigation at all? The > only possible motivations that I can think of are that this is an > opportunity for you: 1. to convert others over to the AAB > teachings; 2. and to practice learning arguments to defend AAB > against any criticism. Are these your motivations? > It has never been my objective to convert others over to AAB teachings or to practice learning arguments to defend AAB against criticism. AAB's teachings stand (or fall) on their own. No one (not me, not anyone else) can 'save' them if they are untrue or unfounded. I may be guilty of not using the English language properly, but my intention on this listserver has only been to find out why the mainstream theosophists donot seem to care for AAB teachings. I had this question when I joined the listserver. Thanks to this dialogue with you, I know of several reasons for this. And my conclusion, based on the dialogue so far is that there are several (healthy, good) reasons why it is not necessary for many to investigate AAB teaching. For me, some of my best lessons in life have come from AAB teachings, but I am going to postpone judgement on several 'speculatory' type of AAB teachings to a future time when I know more. > > Not according to authorities in this field. One of the > authorities who was emphatic that HPB was wrong was W.Y. Evans- > Wentz. I once heard a recorded interview where he discussed this > at some length, but it has been too many years since I heard this > recording for me to feel comfortable repeating his arguments. A > more recent conversation I had on this subject was with John > Cooper when he was in this country a few years ago. He lectures > on Buddhism at the University of Sydney, and I consider him quite > knowledgeable on the subject, though not an "authority" in the > sense that Evans-Wentz is, he is more knowledgeable than the > latter on theosophy. John is also the compiler of HPB's > collected letters, that will be published in a few years. He > considers HPB's definition to be quite an embarrassment. If you > want to take the time, there are a lot of current works on > Buddhism easily available, where you can research it for yourself > As for "deva" it has many more meanings than "god." But the > issue, has more to do with the meaning of "chan" and the actual > origin of the word "devachan," which is not a Sanskrit term, as > HPB says, but Tibetan, and means "the happy place," not "the > abode of the gods." The Sanskrit equivalent of Devachan, > according to Evans-Wentz is "sukhavati." I am quite surprised to hear that John Cooper considers HPB's definition of devachan to be an embarrassment. I know him as one of HPB's staunch supporters. How do you (or how does he) reconcile this with the fact that HPB's teaching originated from the Masters? Is the rest of the HPB teaching fully compatible with the Buddhist literature (against which her definition of 'devachan' is judged)? I'd be very interested in reading the Buddhist view of devachan. To be perfectly honest with you, someone gave me two tapes (recorded by Richard Gere) on the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' which I found quite difficult to understand. Is there any other reference for the Buddhist view of afterdeath states? Is APSinnett's description of afterdeath states in 'Esoteric Buddhism'(Wizard Edition) also wrong? I had also sent you another message some 10 days back, which you have not replied so far. I assume you have gotten busy with your work at the University again. As for me, I have got my tickets to India for travel from July 6 to July 29! I look forward to hearing from you in the near future. Fraternally, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 14:44:42 -0400 From: OSMAR DE CARVALHO Subject: Theosophy Game This is to Christopher Moyer: > I need some help with a project I'm working on and I don't have the > requisite scholarship to make it the best it can be in any kind of > reasonable timeframe. > If you're game, here's the deal: > You begin your first incarnation with no clue, no skills, and you get > wasted.Time and time again you get new life, you become more skilled, > more highly evolved in the world that comprises the environs of the > game. I think many people respond to them because they reflect the > true reality, even if it's only > a subconscious appreciation. This is an amazing idea!! Obviously in the next years we will have all the theosophical literature on CD-ROM, but a GAME on Theosophy would be such an innovation unthinkable to theosophists at large. > obvious. Any ideas for something more subtle? How about a goal. > Every good quest or adventure needs a good goal. James Bond always > gets to save the world. A lot of people like to watch James Bond > movies. There's always a lot at stake. If you believe Nostradamus, > there's a lot at stake these days. Want > to save the world? I belive a good path to achieve a reasonable theosophy game would be the ADVENTURE format. The "goal" could be such as "NIRVANA", "SUPREME UNION", etc. The screenplay could show, at the beginning, a simple mortal fighting for survival. Each part of the game will show a period of the evolution of a man towards illumination, passing trough its strange moments and transformations. A frame to be adopted could be the scheme of the CWL's MASTERS AND THE PATH (yes, I like CWL!). At the end of each stage the ADVENTURE (as one incarnation) it could show the progress of that soul in the improvement of its causal aura, and here can be used all the powerful capacity of image storage and computer graphics. The music would be very important too, and a good suggestion will be the NEW AGE style. The history may go through the many different possibilities we have in our lifes towards that spiritual or secular life, the balance between the physical and spiritual conditions. Another choice will be a kind of SPIRITUAL SIMCITY, with all the management of the construction and union of personality, soul and spirit. > I'd love to hear your thoughts out there... Go ahead with your idea, Chris. You have my humble support, and I am open to share other probable concepts for spiritual software. Osmar *8) . Unhappiness is a part of the ego. Beyond it no such thing exists. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 06:52:53 -0400 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: Wesak, AAB\HPB, and monuments Brenda, BT> One (somewhat secret) advantage to having two diverse > opinions regarding the AAB books and The Arcane School is that > when the young, less-seasoned theosophists get together to do > full moon meditations, the older, ingrained, veterans of > theosophy stay away. > Would it be possible for Jerry and Arvind to describe their > experiences of full moon meditations? As some of the other > members of the network may also have been to full moon > meditations, it might be of interest to see how closely the > activities match in content. It is interesting that your experience of full moon meditations have been divided along generational lines. My experiences with this was in the early to mid 1980's in Los Angeles. The Wesak Festival was held each year at the Wilshire Ebell Theater and there were well over a hundred people attending--of all ages. April and I went for several years. I don't remember why we started, but quit after our lives became too complicated with too many demands upon our time--especially concerning the Lodge. In those days, we entered the theater and sat quietly for an extended time. There was no socializing, though Dane Rudyar was the only person present that we knew well, so we usually sat next to or near him. After sitting quietly for awhile, someone would ascend the stage and explain the festival, talk about meditation (If my memory serves me correctly, the speaker even tried to guide us though a meditation--a procedure that I find counter productive), and read from a book. All of this left me totally unimpressed. For me, the most important part of the experience was just to sit quietly and do my own form of meditation. I cannot claim to have had any extraordinary experiences one way or the other at those meetings, nor could I necessarily credit what experiences I did have to the timing or to the process. I hope this answers your question. Arvind, Here are some short answer to some of your comments. Time is very short, but I will write more fully after you have sent your response concerning the full moon festivals etc. AK> It seems very hard to do a 'pure' investigation along the > lines that you had originally suggested, due to (a)the > nature of 'non real time' internet communication, (b)the > rather substantial claims of others on the time we have > available, (c)my rather heavy 'to-read' list, which has > a priority which is different from what may be required to > undertake this study, (d)my need to ask you questions which > may be 'out of turn' as far as the investigation is concerned, > as illustrated by the questions that I just posed regarding > your impression of AAB. I propose that we continue this > dialog anyways, perhaps without any preconditions or even > methodology, and consider it just an 'information sharing' > project for now! Yes. Under the circumstances, this seems to be the best way. JHE>> Her experiences at Krotona, of course, was fleshed out in >> my reading, because of my own historical knowledge of this >> period. Therefore I was able to compare her attitudes and >> impressions of what was going on with documentation concerning >> what was really going on around her. In this area, I still >> have a lot of questions, and have been exploring them through >> another source. AK> Tell me more about this other source, and the results of > your work, as and when you get any. I'm still working on this one. I'll be happy to share what I find after I get more of the pieces of the puzzle in place. JHE>> Concerning her psychic experiences: seances, telepathic >> communications, visions and visitations, we only know what she >> says concerning these experiences. The trouble with >> experiences of these types is that they can't be collaborated >> by witnesses. Also, it is well known that what one >> experiences psychically is highly subjective. We have no way >> to compare what happened with what she experienced. Since I >> felt that there was no inclination on her part to deceive her >> readers, I would conclude that AAB was of a psychic nature. >> The reliability of her experiences and her ability to >> interpret what she experienced is another question that cannot >> be answered just by reading her Autobiography. AK> I agree with you regarding AAB being a psychic or a > 'sensitive' but looking at the warnings throughout her books > against awakening the psychic faculties prematurely, and the > quality of her writing, I tend to believe that she was > certainly no ordinary 'channeler'. Leadbeater gave the same warnings which were in turn echoes of Blavatsky's warnings. It doesn't prove anything. As for the quality of her writing--I'm not yet convinced of that either. AK> As far as I know, the description of the ceremony involving > the Lord Buddha is only in AAB's own writing, and is not a part > of one of the DK books. Would you mind saving me a bit of time and list those books that are supposed to have been exclusively by DK? JHE>> The complication with >> AAB comes with her unacknowledged usage of Leadbeater ES >> material. If one isn't familiar with the Leadbeater ES >> material (most people are not), then how can we tell which is >> Leadbeater and which is DK? AK> You are right, only someone who has studied Leadbeater in > depth can sort this out. Perhaps we will get help from Brenda > or others reading this dialog who may be familiar with CWL's > writings. That would be nice. AK> I think yours is the only 'well-reasoned' answer that I have > got from non-AAB students that shows why someone may be > reluctant to accept AAB teachings! Through this dialog I have > become a whole lot more skeptical than I have ever been!! That > is why I am wanting to read HPB before I go on to read TCF and > possibly the rest of the AAB books. When you go to India this summer, I suggest that you pick up a copy of ~H.P.B. Teaches~ edited by Michael Gomes. It is just a single volume in an orange cover, and not available in the U.S. It is a collection of her more important articles, and they were very nicely annotated. I think you will find it very much worth having, even though you plan to get the Collected Writings later. H.P.B.'s articles to the members there, since her Collected Writings are not available for sale in India. AK>> You may be interested in the following excerpt that I saw on >> the Seth teachings elsewhere on Internet: >> - Re-incarnation. >> Instead of a linear progression of incarnations, all our >> reincarnations exist at once. It appears linear due to >> the way we have focused our consciousness. I'm sure that on some level and from some point of view this is true. But how does this information make us better people? >> - Cause and effect. >> It occurs because of foundation beliefs we all hold on >> the nature of physical reality. But these beliefs can >> be changed if you believe strongly enough against it: >> e.g. if you believe a mountain will move, it will. Obviously this is partly true. But remember the old Vedanta story of the chela whose belief transcended the veils of maya and he was still swept off the road by an elephant. >> - Enlightenment. >> Gnothi Seaton, Know Thyself. However, Seth claims that >> the path too enlightment need not be of serious moment >> with serious faces. In fact, one way to enlightment is: >> "If it ain't fun, don't do it". In contrast to this is Blavatsky's statement that the reason that happiness is so ephemeral on this plane, is because it really is not a part of it, but belongs to more spiritual realms. In other words, the purpose of our being here in the physical is not for us to be happy. We learn our lessons through mistakes and personal pain. Seth's view sounds more appealing, doesn't it? >> - Inherent existing self. >> We are multimensional personalities, that is, we are far >> more than we are consciously aware of at present. This >> includes the subconscious and unconscious strata's of our >> being, and the super inner self that includes all >> past-future incarnations, etc. We are Gods, couched in >> creaturehood. Sounds like theosophy 101 doesn't it? >> - Ultimate reality. >> There is no ultimate reality. God (or All-That-Is) is >> not all done and finished and never will be. All-That-Is >> is in an infinite State of Becoming that is occuring Now. >> Perfection implies a dead end, where all is done and >> completed, and that is not the nature of All-That-Is. >> There is no ultimate anything for that would imply >> perfection and completeness. And here is theosophy 201! AK>>> 5.There is a show called 'Ancient Prophecies' or something >>> like that which is supposed to re-air on NBC on April 10 >>> (Sunday). I was asked by a couple of people to watch it and I >>> am just passing on that info to you here; it may be of >>> interest to us all. >> JHE>>Thanks, but we will be out of town Sunday. Maybe it will air >> at a different time here. AK> The show was somewhat shocking, to put it mildly. It > consisted of segments on Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus and a living > 'prophet' by the name of Gordon-Michael Scallion, who > apparently has been rather accurately predicting the recent > 'earth changes' (e.g. hurricane Andrew, the LA quakes, midwest > flooding). He claims that there will be major changes in the > geography and the economy of the US between now and 2001. In > particular, I am very concerned about his prediction that > California will become the 'islands of California'. There is a > toll free number (1-800-628-7493) where anyone can reach the > Matrix Institute which he has founded, and order 'the Map of > the (new) US' as well as a Video on his predictions and also > subscribe to his monthly newsletter called 'the Earth Changes > Report'(ECR). I just yesterday ordered a copy of the map and a > couple of other things! You definitely need to look into it > (if nothing else, get a copy of the latest newsletter for > $5.00). If you already know about him, let me know what you > think. We live East of the fault line and 98 feet above sea level, so I don't think I'm going to loose any sleep over this one. If Los Angeles becomes an island, it would probably suit most of the people in this country just fine. Most people regard "la la land" as a world of its own anyway. In a more serious vein, this is all old hat. Edgar Cayce started this over fifty years ago. As for the economy, it would be more miraculous if there weren't major changes by 2001. Paul Johnson, Your trip to Texas sounds great. Reminds me of the time we took half the Summer off and visited all of the Indian ruins in the South West. We camped in Chaco Canyon and the whole bit. Now you have me all stirred up to do it again. But the most astounding experience was in Brittany about three years ago. There is a man-made cave on an island in the Gulf of Morhibrihan that is dated to have been constructed prior to 8500 B.C. The Stones are all beautifully carved with designs, including a human-like form at the very end. It was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life just sitting in there. It is a must, the next time you get back there. Fraternally Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 06:53:25 -0400 From: jhe@koko.csustan.edu (Jerry Hejka-Ekins) Subject: AAB\HPB Arvind I found the rest of your message today. I'm posting my reply (written on the 20th) to the first part of your message and then this, which is a reply to your previous `thread.' AK> The Wesak festival is considered of major importance in > AAB teachings, but a belief in the ceremony as described > by AAB/CWL is not a critical requirement for accepting the rest > of the Bailey teachings (esp. those which are dictated by the > Tibetan). This is very interesting. How far can one go with rejecting this belief? Can one throw out the whole Wesak concept completely and still accept the rest of AAB's teachings? > Bailey explains that the period of full moon is important > because moon is 'out of the way', allowing for a direct > alignment between the Sun and the Earth during this period. > The period of the new moon is also considered important by AAB; > new moon meditation focuses on "Discovering the Memebers of the > New Group of World Servers and Strengthening their Hands". > At the time of the new moon, the 'spiritual energies' > coming from the Sun and the extra-plenatary sources are at > a low point, hence the need to link up in spirit with other > servers in an effort to 'strengthen their hands'. This is a very different twist on astrological thinking. You are saying that at "the new moon, the `spiritual energies' coming from the Sun and extra-planetary sources are at a low point..." Blavatsky and traditional astrological lore would put the moon at greatest influence when full, and at lessor influence when new--just the opposite of what you are suggesting here. By the way, as long as we are one the subject of the moon-- concerning your statement to Brenda: I should point out that Bailey has predicted that the twelve periods of full moon during the calendar year will eventually become 'the twelve spiritual festivals', celebrated by all of humanity, when the new world religion based on invocation and evocation becomes a reality. Assuming your statement is not a mis-reading of AAB (or DK?), she was incorrect here. A calendar year has 13 lunar periods--not 12. JHE >> Therefore my doubts >> extend far beyond whether or not Leadbeater's description of >> the ceremony is accurate, I don't believe the ceremony that >> Leadbeater speaks of takes place at all. If you have any >> evidence to the contrary, I'm anxious to see it. >> AK> I sure donot have any evidence to corroborate Bailey/CWL > description of the ceremony. I must refer here to a quote from > a recent message from Paul Johnson, where he says that > 'As for CWL, I adhere to Tillett's theory of "unconscious > kriyashakti"-- that is that CWL's belief in his visionary world > was so intense that he could actually induce experiences in > others that led them to believe in its reality.' > > Is there not a possibility that at least some of CWL's > so-called 'visionary world' was real? The 'unconscious > kriyashakti' sounds to me like a power that only spiritually > evolved humans have (this reminds me of the accounts of many > persons who have indicated that their 'Guru touched them, and > they were able to see a whole different world on the inner > planes'.) It is quite possible that CWL had a lot of > 'personality problems' that prevented him from expressing 100% > of the 'pure light' that he was experiencing in his visions > from the realm of the soul; the point is that we should not > discard something as definitely 'a figment of the imagination' > just because CWL wrote aboout it. If his account of something > (say the Wesak ceremony) agrees with that given by another > person (Bailey in the case of Wesak), I'd be willing to > entertain the possibility that his account holds some truth. Paul's assessment of CWL is almost the same as mine, except I feel that the "unconscious kriyashakti" theory is *probably* true. Paul appears to have less reservations about it. As for CWL's "`personality problems' preventing him from expressing 100% of the 'pure light' that he was experiencing in his visions from the realm of the soul..." yes I agree. Using the same reasoning, I think that Hitler's "personality problems" also prevented him from "expressing 100% of the 'pure light'..." Of course I will grant that there is a big difference here--Hitler's personality problems caused the lives of some 20 million people, while CWL just ruined the lives of a hand full of children. But the principle is the same--they both had personality problems that were a danger to the well being of others. It's just a matter of degree. Since CWL claimed to be an Arhat--do you think Hitler might have been a Mahatma? You are incorrect in asserting that I discarded Leadbeater's vision as 'a figment of the imagination' "just because CWL wrote about it." As I explained in an earlier communication, I discarded it because there is no confirmation of this ceremony in Tibetan Buddhism. According to Leadbeater, the Tibetans know about this ceremony. He offered this `fact' as evidence of the existence of the ceremony. Since Tibetans weren't very available to contradict him in 1910, it was a pretty safe piece of evidence to put forward. Now, since the Chinese invasion, Tibetans are available in droves, and CWL's evidence falls. Yes, there is a possibility that `some' of CWL's "so-called 'visionary world' was real." There is even a possibility that his vision of Wesak was real--but the probability is almost nil. As for your statement that the "'unconscious kriyashakti' sounds to me like a power that only spiritually evolved humans have"--I cannot accept this. The average person experiences unconscious kriyashakti every day. Young children are especially good at it. One doesn't have to be "spiritually evolved." JHE>> I see the situation as being much more complex then this. >> For example, let us assume that HPB said nothing about the >> lunar periods as you suggest here (this is not really true, >> but I'm using your example to illustrate a point). But let us >> say that she does give ample information concerning the role >> of the moon in planetary and human evolution, as well as in >> symbolism and mythology (which she indeed does). I would then >> take AAB's "new" teaching concerning the moon and ask how it >> fits in with everything else we know about the moon, in both >> HPB's teachings and in light of modern knowledge. Thus, even >> though AAB's teaching may be an "extension," there is still >> ample *related* material in HPB's writings and in modern >> science to compare and make an evaluation. In the light of my >> above explanation, can you tell me which of HPB's teachings >> are AAB's "rules" supposed to be extensions of? AK> I follow your position but am not in a position to answer > your question on the correlation of HPB teachings with AAB > rules. This is a rather tall order, for which I am not ready at > the moment. As I read HPB's works, I'll hope to point out > where the similarities (or differences) are. In this case, I suggest that you back off of your speculation concerning AAB being an `extension' and GdeP being an `expansion' of HPB's teachings until you are in a "position" to answer my question. JHE >> No, I don't see it this way, for the reason I just gave >> above, when we were discussing AAB's teachings on the moon. >> One thing I really like about HPB is that she never puts her >> readers into a position where they have to take anything on >> "faith (though many readers do that anyway--but this is >> laziness on the reader's part, and not HPB's fault)." If TCF >> is an "extension" of TSD, then I would expect to be able to >> evaluate it using the same rules that are used to evaluate >> HPB's writings. Is this asking too much? AK> There is no doubt that the writing styles of Bailey and HPB > are quite different. HPB's writing has extensive references > and meets the modern day rigorous 'academic' standards > whereas most AAB writing is basically written along the > lines of a 'spiritual revelation', which one has to > accept as a hypothesis initially (until proven by individual > effort or experience). It is legitimate to ask the question > as to why two different styles were chosen for the writing > if the source of the teaching is the same ("DK"). I donot > claim to have the answer to this question but there is > speculation that HPB's writing style itself may have been an > 'experiment' by the Hierarchy. Although you (and several > others) prefer HPB's presentation of the material with > extensive references, many others want to have the 'pure > teaching' transmitted, without the burden of comparison with > other (esp. 'profane') teaching or works. There is no way to answer speculations. On the other hand, I would not make a speculation more than what it is. As for your suggestion that the source of TSD being DK, I thought we had exploded that idea some months ago. JHE>> Did I tell you that I was "irritated?" What makes you >> believe that you can "read" my feelings in this text? If we >> had met, and we had spent some time together, I could >> understand how you might be in a position to surmise my >> feelings--though you still may be incorrect. The reason this >> catches my interest is because of a conversation I had last >> weekend at Krotona with a friend who has been following this >> dialogue. She expressed her opinion that the reason you are >> constantly misjudging and misinterpreting what I write, is >> because you have no knowledge of the "personality" that is >> behind this written text--and thus attribute motivations and >> feelings that are not there. My friend, who knows me very >> well, says that when she reads my text, she also "hears" my >> "voice." Because she knows me as a person, she has a "sense" >> of my intentions (and perhaps sometimes feelings) that are >> behind the text. From reading your responses, she is very >> aware that my intentions are very different than those you >> often surmise. AK> Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, I am guilty of > (mis)judging your motivations and feelings, based on my > experience with what comes through the writings of others and > the use of the English language in general. I'll point out the > words which lead me to my inference next time I sense > 'feelings' coming through your e-mail. The point I was trying to make in a very diplomatic way was that you misread my motivations, feelings and the meaning of my text more often than not. My friend was only offering a suggestion as to why you may be doing this. I suggest that you put aside your speculations concerning my feelings and motivations, and concentrate on getting at the meaning of the text. Once you get the meaning of the text, you will be in a better position to speculate on my feelings etc. However, if my feelings have any bearing upon what I write, I usually tell you straight out what they are. In the case of your beliefs concerning AAB--no they don't irritate me. In fact, I think I have written to you before that I really don't care what your beliefs are, as long as they are not a source of harm to yourself or to others. However, you did recently succeed in irritating me. My irritation concerns the following excerpt from your message to Paul: What are your views on CWL's teachings? Do you agree with Jerry H-E that EVERYTHING that CWL wrote is to be considered as having arisen out of CWL's imagination, with no truth in it? Look back on my communications. NOWHERE will you find me making the statement (or anything even close to it) that "EVERYTHING that CWL wrote is to be considered as having arisen out of CWL's imagination, with no truth in it." When you mis- read my statements, I become (as I have said before) distressed, because, I'm trying to find ways to communicate with you so that you can get my meaning. But when you misread my statements and in turn repeat your misreadings as representative of what I wrote, I become irritated. I become so, because it very often happens that mis-quotes are picked up by others who will assume them to be accurate statements. Mis-quotes like these are prime candidates for the theosophical gossip machine. But I realize that you are unaware of that dynamic. "Error runs down an inclined plane", HPB once wrote. > I am quite surprised to hear that John Cooper considers HPB's > definition of devachan to be an embarrassment. I know him as > one of HPB's staunch supporters. How do you (or > how does he) reconcile this with the fact that HPB's > teaching originated from the Masters? Is the rest of the > HPB teaching fully compatible with the Buddhist literature > (against which her definition of 'devachan' is judged)? I'd be > very interested in reading the Buddhist view of devachan. > To be perfectly honest with you, someone gave me two tapes > (recorded by Richard Gere) on the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' > which I found quite difficult to understand. Is there any > other reference for the Buddhist view of afterdeath states? > Is APSinnett's description of afterdeath states in 'Esoteric > Buddhism'(Wizard Edition) also wrong? Yes, Cooper is a "staunch supporter of HPB." He is also a very good student of her writings. As I told you earlier, a mark of a good student is when they can ask a question like: "how could HPB say a dumb thing like that?" Cooper, like all truly good students of HPB, asks that question. As for the "fact that HPB's teaching originated from the Masters", that is your assumption, which I hope you will soon drop, if you really want to understand HPB's writings. As for HPB's compatibility with Buddhist literature, which Buddhist literature are you referring? Sinnett's description of after death states in ~Esoteric Buddhism~ has nothing to do with Buddhism. AK> As for me, I have got my tickets to India for travel > from July 6 to July 29! Bon voyage! Our arrangements to go to India fell through, so we won't be going this year. Fraternally, Jerry Hejka-Ekins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 09:15:59 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Response to Paddy thanks for your help. Essay is finished now....can I give you another question? love paddy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 00:26:34 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: New stuff in Theos-l Archives (and FTP site) Hi -- Don Degracia has given us permission to add his essay on out-of body experiences (OBE's) to our Theos-L archives (available through the listserv@vnet.net as e-mail and the FTP archive site on vnet.net at /pub/theos-l) If you need help accesses the archives --- please feel free to ask me at jem@vnet.net Peace John Mead (Don's Posting follows) ====================================================== ATTENTION ALL OOBErs and ASTRAL PROJECTORS ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE OF A TEXT FILE ******HOW TO ASTRAL PROJECT********* by Don DeGracia HOW TO ASTRAL PROJECT is an about 100 page document covering all the major facets of inducing the astral projection/OOBE/Lucid dream experience. This document is intended for both beginners and advanced students in the art of leaving the body. Beginners will learn specific and detailed methods for achieving the OOBE state and advanced students can pick up alternative views of the theory of projection as well as helpful hints on what to do and where to go in the OOBE state. Major topics include: - The various theories of the projection/OOBE experience. - Detailed methods utilizing dream and trance techniques. - A detailed study of the OOBE realm, including scenery, inhabitants, and what to expect during an OOBE. - Numerous personal experiences from the author's astral projection journal. - And more too! ***WHAT TO GET*** HOW TO ASTRAL PROJECT is being distributed on the internet in two forms: 1. DO_OBE.ZIP - this is a ZIP archive containing the entire document. It is for PC compatible machines. File size is 188,144 bytes. 2. DO_OBE.TXT - this is a straight ASCII file of HOW TO ASTRAL PROJECT intended for any platform that can read ASCII files. This is an uncompressed ASCII file. File size is 492,426 bytes. If you are on a PC and use PKUNZIP 2.04g, get DO_OBE.ZIP. For everyone else. get DO_OBE.TXT. ***FTP SITES*** DO_OBE.ZIP and DO_OBE.TXT are available via FTP from two sites: 1. Senthil R. Kumar has kindly provided the following site: FTP to: minpro.mng.psu.edu Initially the files will be in the directory /incoming They will eventually be moved to the directory /pub/OBE (Thank you, Senthil!) 2. Copies of DO_OBE.ZIP and DO_OBE.TXT are also available on the public Theosophy archive (Charlotte, NC). FTP to char.vnet.net login as anonymous (pwd e-mail address) Files are in the directory /pub/theos-l Also note, the author has other documents about altered states of consciousness and psychic powers available in char.vnet.net: There are also other excellent files here too, including essays by Michael R. Meyer and Gerald Schueler, both of who are noted authors in occult books. 1. dondeg01.txt - This is a text file that discusses hallucinogenic drugs from both a scientific and occult perspective. By Don DeGracia 2. dondeg02.txt - This is a text file that discusses the practical side of developing psychic abilities. By Don DeGracia 3. theo.exe Windows Help file; self extracting zip;by Don DeGracia Introduction to Theosophy. Lottsa nice pictures and lots of text. Written with a scientific slant. 4. theo.uu uu encoded theo.exe Well, that should cover all you need to get HOW TO ASTRAL PROJECT by FTP. I hope those of you that read this find it useful and helpful. If you want to contact me, my e-mail address is provided in the document. Thanks everybody. Don DeGracia From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 01:24:01 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: New article in Archives -- on spiritual masonry I have added the following article to the Theos-L archives available from the listserv@vnet.net as e-mail or by direct FTP access on vnet.net in /pub/theos-l "The Dawning of SPIRITUAL Masonry" by Norman Williams Crabbe, MPS as published in _The Philalethes_ magazine, April 1994 (Copyrighted material. added to archives with permission) The Philalethes is the Journal of Masonic Research and Letters. It is available by subscription to any individual or organization for more Information contact: The Philalethes Society PO Box 70 Highland Springs, VA 23075-0070 voice: 502-842-5415 fax: 502-843-6678 Peace John Mead jem@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 12:27:58 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Hyperspace and OOBEs Although the copy of Michio Kaku's Hyperspace I ordered for my library hasn't come in yet, a friend bought it and let me read the preface. For what it's worth, and I've been wrong before in expectations based on prefaces, I think this is the most Theosophically significant popular science book of the century. Way beyond Capra or Zukav. I felt like I was holding the Bible-- it feels like a powerfully important consciousness-raiser. Can't wait to get it. Anyone read it out there? Jerry S.-- how about a new edition of Enochian Physics taking superstring theory into account? Re Don's file, I have been reading Alt. Religion. Eckankar lately, and I highly recommend to Don or John to post the same notice to that newsgroup. Would do it myself if I weren't a technological ignoramus. There's lots of debate about the subject and people would be fascinated. Come to think of it, I will post it but will refer folks to jem for further instructions. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 00:51:42 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: mind training centers This is by Brenda. Dear Chris and Dan: I liked your discussion regarding a Theosophy game. If I may, I'd like to take this thought about providing computer buffs with a new game a step further. With the advent of computer books, libraries may be becoming obsolete. What choice do library users have? There are a few literary clubs and lecture circuits, but someone with foresight might make computers the biggest adventure on the planet and make librairies outdated or "storage only." The biggest rave in membership clubs today are the aerobic clubs or fitness centers where for a monthly fee you are allowed unlimited access to their equipment and instructors, and receive needed gains in your health and physical fitness. How about a franchise for mental fitness centers where members of the population who are without the resources for computers or without the computer ease for network participation could receive guidance on a variety of equipment stocked with a variety of software packages, even study courses? If you could pack a crowd in like the health clubs do, wouldn't it be a feasible venture? There would be intellectual studies, spiritual studies, games, in fact, as much as the computer world has to offer an individual PC or Apple owner, plus what's available through network correspondence. All for a low monthly fee. When you think of the expense involved in acquiring individually not only new and current software, but new equipment and parts, this would be a wonderful new business venture for some enterprising person who could make all the world of computer knowledge available to a segment of the population who is not only interested in physical fitness, but who is also out there trying to improve their minds, but not always being provided with the way to do so. The socializing, versus adult education classes, would be less structured and might even involve group participation at times, creating a place for boy to meet girl or to make new friends. MIND TRAINING CENTERS - Software (education and fun) for those who don't always know the answers, but have never stopped trying to find them. Anyone game? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 01:09:38 -0400 From: MOYER1@applelink.apple.com (Moyer, Christopher,CLA) Subject: Re: Game Thoughts Daniel... Pretty heavy message. I've been digesting it for the last several days, so please forgive the lack of a quick reply. First off the spiral 7 works for me enormously well, as I'm visualizing progress as the ascension of a spiral staircase. The musical allusions reminded me that I'd also like a soundtrack keyed to various lives. Coarser music, like rap or something for coarser lives, going up a continuum (spiral ascension) to something like, say, Pachelbel's Canon. Also, taking your suggestion to heart, I've written a FileMaker Pro database to contain and cross-reference concepts as I go through and start harvesting ideas. What kind of computer are you on? FileMaker runs on Macs or Windows machines and I have a demo version of the database that will run anything I cook up. I'd like to run this first build by you to get your feedback, so if you could send me a mailing address and what type of computer you're on, I'll fire this over to you. I've been thinking over the shape of the game and a good idea has come to mind. Imagine something like SIM City where you're making decisions and things are jamming along and you're racking up all these 'points', as it were. In a similar fashion, a player would get to go through the equivalent of a JP Morgan or Caesar or some other highly accomplished personality. A score would be kept of all the money they make, the assets they have, the nations they've conquered, etc., mirroring the typical score-keeping of life on earth. Then they die, and all their earthy acquisitions, scores, are wiped out, and then they find out how they really did in terms of karmic debt and evolution. It will only smoke a player once, but I like the way it leads them to believe the illusion is the important thing, only to show them otherwise later on. I like the lesson inherent in that. Between lives, Leadbeater's idea of the 3 laws of human life struck me as a good starting point (The Inner Life, page 337). Maybe something like a menu of possible times, cultural environments (religion, social norms, etc.) and such for the oversoul (Jane Roberts' term) to select from, only to have the laws kick in and the person getting more or less than what they asked for. The 7 also works for me in the 7 levels of astral matter, those various levels, if you're stuck in one, coloring how you view others. The oversoul who is less developed will see the environment and others as more hostile and evil than the more highly developed oversoul who finds all the beauty that is in the world. I haven't come up with a good way for a player to 'recognize' a co-reincarnational character other than to have them thrown together and jibe really well. I'd like for that concept to ultimately be clear, even if it isn't at first. The whole idea of lessons being derived by the player instead of being beaten into the player seems like it should be a fundamental goal of the game structure. Which brings me back to the huge question: of the multitude of lessons within the teachings, which ones should be included? What criteria should be used for selection? These questions are the reason I only have 10 entries in my database so far. I don't want to be cranking in a bunch of stuff that I'm not likely to use. A primary goal for me is to teach the unity of all things. I think that lesson alone can go a long way toward fostering mutual understanding between people and institutions in conflict every day. Soundtrack: Elvis Costello's 'What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?' I don't have a strong feel for other concepts yet, aside from the workings of reincarnation and karma. Any thoughts in that direction? The goal of this game is to better the world through the teachings of Theosophy. What concepts fit that objective for you? Looking forward to your reply, Chris From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 12:05:31 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: listserv commands for archives Hi -- the theos-l archive files can forwarded to any person through e-mail. You need to send a command (e-mail message) to listserv@vnet.net with the line (as the text or body of the e-mail) get theos-L file-name where file-name is any of the files in the theos-L archives. To obtain a list (index) of ALL available files in the Theos-l archives you would send the command line (to listserv@vnet.net) index Theos-L Several lines can be sent in on message too. e.g. to receive 1) an index of the Theos-L archives AND 2) don's new Tome on OOBE's and 3) a short list of listserv commands, you could send the three lines to listserv@vnet.net index theos-L get theos-L do_obe.txt help You would receive the Index to Theos-L in an e-mail message, Don's OBE stuff in another e-mail message (actually Don's stuff comes in eight separate messages due it's size... the listserver manages these details, so you think of do_obe.txt as a single file), and the list of listserv commands would arrive in a separate e-mail message too. Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:35:41 -0400 From: johnshafer@aol.com Subject: Inter-Theosophical Dialogue This is a report of the Inter-Theosophical Dialogue held at Krotona last month. Comments welcome. THE INTER-THEOSOPHICAL DIALOGUE On March 26, 1994, The Krotona School of Theosophy in Ojai, California, sponsored the "Inter-Theosophical Dialogue: The Theosophical Movement Past and Future." Members of different groups who grew from the original Theosophical Society were invited to attend for the purpose of having a dialogue with each other. This was the second time such an event has occurred. The last time was in 1984. The subject for the morning session was, "The Theosophical movement in the 20th Century: What have we achieved?" Panelists speaking to this question were: Nandini Iyer, Associate, United Lodge of Theosophists, who pointed out that theosophy's effect on people's minds is reflected in 20th century thought: wherever thought tends to be free, there the theosophical movement can be found; Carmen Small, Point Loma Publications, who gave information on how a number of theosophical-oriented schools have influenced education; Jerry Hejka-Ekins, Theosophical Society, Adyar, who spoke of how theosophy has influenced and been influenced by paradigm shifts; Eleanor Shumway, Temple of the People, Halcyon, who described the formation and structure of Halcyon's Temple of the People; and Alan Donant, Theosophical Society, Pasadena, who spoke of how we have become cosmopolitan, citizens of a greater group. The afternoon session addressed the question: "Theosophy in the 21st Century: Where Do We Go From Here?" The panelists for this session were: Rob McOwen, Associate, United Lodge of Theosophists, who discussed the need to understand and disseminate the concepts of unity and diversity; Nancy and John Coker, Theosophical Society, Pasadena, who talked of the danger of looking too much to the past, that we need to keep the message fresh and current and focus on reaching youth by speaking in their language; and John Algeo, President (American Section), Theosophical Society, Adyar, who reminded us of the original vision of theosophy to be the cornerstone of the future religions of humanity, and how a new institute for theosophical education could help fulfill that. The rest of the afternoon was devoted to actual dialogues between all attending theosophists. Everyone was divided into groups of approximately 10-12 members each, making a total of 14 groups. This was pre-organized so as to mix members of various branches as much as possible. Each group was asked to discuss two questions: 1) What does the theosophical movement need to do in the 21st century to be of service to the world; and 2) what steps could each of us take to contribute? After an hour and a half of dialogue, everyone reassembled and representatives gave a summary report from each group. Through this process over a hundred separate items were presented; several common themes began to emerge which were echoed many times in different ways. We compiled all this and have attempted to synthesize it down to a list of ten themes which we present below. Since we did not feel it was possible to accurately prioritize them, we have tried to order them in a logical manner based on the notion of taking care of inner needs first, then expanding to outer concerns: 1. Clarify the teachings: Have a clear and sound knowledge of the wisdom presented in theosophy. 2. Practice theosophy as a way of self-transformation: Apply the theosophical teachings in our daily lives so that we can transform ourselves and set an example to others. 3. Balance mind and heart: Cultivate the heart aspect of the teachings in order to reach a middle point between intellect and heart. 4. Participate in theosophical activities with creative energy: Utilize our own unique talents and put our energies to work. Get involved through study groups, social service, etc. 5. Make theosophy inclusive of other spiritual traditions: Accept the wisdom shared by other movements as part of our own. Be more embracing of other sources of literature, spiritual practices, and teachings in general. Be discriminately open. 6. Adapt theosophy to the contemporary world and language: Explore new methodologies. Restate and present the theosophical teachings in a modern, fresh, and current terminology. 7. Educate: Develop programs and methods to broadly disseminate theosophy. Explore new educational means such as cultural, artistic, and entertainment activities. Reach the people. 8. Involve Youth: Revitalize the theosophical movement with the presence and energy of young people. Work together with them to bring forth activities that will stimulate youth participation. 9. Network: Increase interaction and association with sympathetic individuals and groups. Promote cooperation among different organizations. 10. Reach Out: Encourage a broader outreach of theosophical activities on both community and worldly levels. Take advantage of new media technologies. We would like to make special mention of one group's presentation which we feel summarizes the sentiments of the day in a particularly succinct and elegant manner: 1. Clarify an understanding of the basic principles. 2. Apply principles to self-transformation. 3. Share principles with others. In other words, "learn it, then just do it!" This was from GROUP 9 facilitated and presented by Diana Dunningham Chapotin. After the main events of the day, many participants gathered for dinner in the Krotona School where they had an opportunity to socialize in a more informal setting. Following this, the group facilitators and a few others gathered for a post-conference debriefing which turned out to be the most intense gathering of the day. This group also processed the days events and came up with a list of four priority questions for the theosophical movement: 1. What are the essential teachings of theosophy that all theosophists can agree on? 2. How should theosophy evolve with the new paradigm shift -- in other words, how do we adapt the old language and ideas to the modern world? 3. How should theosophy present itself to the world now? 4. Where's the party? In other words, does theosophy need to be so serious all the time? How do we attract new younger members? Everyone was very energized and wished to see the enthusiasm and dialogue somehow carried on. It was decided that a longer weekend retreat was needed to continue and expand discussion; one was organized for the weekend of May 14th and 15th. For those interested, both audio and video recordings of the day's events are available. For audio tapes, contact David Dynes at Krotona School, (805) 646-1139, for video tapes contact Steve Schwitzer at Olcott headquarters, 1-800-669-1571. - Reported by Tamara Gerard, John Shafer & Christina Zubelli From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:37:47 -0400 From: johnshafer@aol.com Subject: Greetings from a new member Greetings fellow theosophists, I have recently joined your discussion group and would like to introduce myself. My name is John Shafer. I have been a theosophist for about four years now. I am currently living in San Francisco where I'm taking a sabbatical from my teaching position in Connecticut, and taking some classes at the Institute of Integral Studies. I have been active with the Connecticut Study Center with occassional weekends at Pumpkin Hollow Farm. This fall I spent three months at Krotona which was very enlightening in several different ways. Besides teaching I'm also into media and would like to say that I find Chris Moyer's idea of a theosophical computer game very exciting. I have been silently monitoring your discussions for a few weeks to try and become familiar with the topics and I must say I find the level of discussion in this electronic format more in-depth than any I have encountered in real life. I've been gradually becoming familiar with those of you participating, but I'm wondering if there is a set of bio files available anywhere so that new people can become acquainted with you? As far as my interests and philosophy is concerned I would describe myself as pretty eclectic. Over the last year I have been trying to do a systematic study of all religions both on the exoteric and the esoteric levels (a daunting task, I know); I use TSD as a supporting reference for this. I am also in the middle of reading the Cranston HPB biography which I find fasinating. Most recently I've been studying transpersonal psychology and astrology with Stanislov Grof and Richard Tarnas. I like astrology because of it's fundamental integration of science and metaphysics which is something I believe is crucial right now. I've also been doing some research on the UFO phenomenon and the possibility of artificial objects on Mars. I definitely believe in a balance between intellectual and experiential knowledge which I try to balance in my own life as much as possible. I practice yoga and meditation regularly and have experimented with many different techniques for exploring "other realms." For my first contribution to your forum I'd like to upload a report I co-wrote about the Inter-Theosophical Dialogue which we are submitting to various theosophical newsletters. I think the conference raised some important issues about the theosophical movement. I'm going to load it in the "theos-buds" topic which seems most appropriate for its content. I welcome any feeedback you might have. Several of these issues will be discussed at the "Post Modern Theosophical Dialogue" to be held next month organized by April and Jerry H-E. John From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 18:05:51 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: hello to John Shafer!! > several different ways. Besides teaching I'm also into media and would like > to say that I find Chris Moyer's idea of a theosophical computer game very > exciting. Don Degracia is (probably "has" by now) developing multi-media computer "books" on Theosophy. He only hangs out on Theos-Buds though. I like the "Game" idea too. Don, myself, Mike G., and others have been examining various ideas regarding Theosophy and the Internet/Multimedia/computers etc... I'll post something on Theos-Buds soon (so others can join in). > but I'm wondering if there is a set of bio files available anywhere so that > new people can become acquainted with you? we started out in this manner (somewhat). If you pull the early theos-l archival log-files, you can find some of these. Perhaps it would good to collect these into a single resource. If people want to send me bio's, I'll bundle them into a file for archival. (including mine). It is probably better to start from scratch now. > I definitely believe in a balance between intellectual and experiential > knowledge which I try to balance in my own life as much as possible. I There are alot of us who feel that the time is right to blend meta-physics into physics etc. It seemed that your interests implied some scientific background/interests?? The UFO field is extremely complex... Perhaps we may get some activity in this realm soon (theos-Buds stuff). School is out in a few weeks (which should help). What area do you teach? I don't think you mentioned it? Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 19:04:32 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Don's OOBE class on CIS Don DeGracia is teaching an OOBE class on the Compuserve New Age Forum. His "notes" were the recent addition to our archives. I was wondering if anyone wanted to get/view the log-files of the conference-class?? They will start in mid-may (??) and be held once per week. The log-files could be used to launch our own discussion(s). it would be easy to post them onto Theos-Buds. also, we could use the IRC (Internet Relay Chat) to have our own conferences and classes. Peace, John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 09:21:28 -0700 (PDT) From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: resend message I posted this last night, and it still has not come back. A message from someone else came out this morning, leading me to think that my posting has been lost. Could you repost it for me if it is not already on, or let me know if it posted but for some reason my copy did not get back to me? Thanks. Eldon ---- (subject: Life is Our Media) This one is by Eldon Tucker. ---- After we have studied Theosophy a bit, and come to appreciate the wealth of wisdom that it contains, we wonder how we can share the treasures that we find with others. The world is hungry for what we have found, there is something quite special to behold in the Teachings. We cannot help wanting to share them with others, for the beauty of what we've found burns the most brightly in our minds and hearts as we share and pass on the Teachings. There are two parts to the Teachings that can be shared. There is the part that leads to the door to the Mysteries. This is a path for the few, something special that is not meant for public dissemination. These are reserved for the few, although we have the potential of joining their ranks. The second part is the keynote ideas and ethics needed to raise the spiritual consciousness of our age. This part concerns keeping the spiritual alive in western thought, and the transformations needed as one subrace changes to the next, for popular thought is always changing and transforming itself. Considering this part, we find the task a difficult task before us. We must work the basic ideas of philosophy into our media, and into popular thought. This goes from the schoolyard games to the themes of popular paperback fiction, movies, and television. Everywhere we look about us in life, there are stories being told, and people living them out in their lives. The way the stories go, and how they end, reveal the bias and the thought atmosphere of a society. There are certain morals, certain endings to stories that we see, with an implied "this is how things are." We can trace and observe the basic themes in our media, but we do not have to accept any ending. There is, for instance, certain formulas for writing fiction that sells well. Another example is found in family movies. If the good guy kills someone, he is tainted, and will die before the end of the movie. Often, his death will be in some action that redeems himself, but he has already done something that is so terrible that his ultimate fate is sealed. Or consider a bad guy in a movie, whom needs to be killed off before the ending. The good guy cannot kill him, so the bad guy has to die through his own accident or evil deed, like a wicked witch slipping and falling to her death as she tries to kill the hero. The morals behind the stories that we are emersed in are not always straight forward, not always spelled out to us, but they are there. We have our own Aesop's Fables, but the morals are not always stated straightforwardly. In the 1960's, psychic powers were portrayed on tv as unreal, delusional, with disclaimers. Everyone knew they could not be true, and it was considered wrong to show them as possible, real, or of any good. Astrology is still presented at times as just "for entertainment value." There are themes in our stories that need to be changed, for they are wrong, and although we may know better, the public may not know better. It is important to better the stories of our society, because the stories that we hear and think of set the context for how we live our lives. The stories provide the themes for our personal existence. We live by the stories we think and use to pattern our lives. Our day-to-day activities are seen while playing various roles, drams, games in life. One person may say: "I am a postman, delivering letters." Another may be a policeman, "only doing my job." A third may be a mother of four driving her station wagon to school to take her children home in the late afternoon. These are all stories that we have learned and are following in our lives. Let's consider one theme that is still pervasive, an attitude that could lead to accepting evil in one's life. There is a theme that something is ok to do if someone can get away with if. It is ok to do if there is no accountability. Soldiers in Bosnia rape and kill the civilian population with little or no individual accountability. We even find this attitude in people portrayed in the media using paranormal powers. We may watch on tv as a man uses his mental powers to throw someone across the room, perhaps injuring or killing that person. It is often presented as though he may do so because he is a superior being, because of his powers. If someone else, without paranormal powers, did the same thing using a gun, we'd think "what a terrible man!" But when paranormal powers are involved, the moral accountability is somehow missing. If you read someone's mind and know how they feel about you, without asking them, are you in the wrong? Is this any different from snooping in a woman's purse or a man's briefcase, or stealing a look at someone's journal? What if you influence someone, and change them, getting them to be or do things that you want? If you used mental affirmations or thought control from a distance, are you any less guilty of manipulation and coercion than that done by J.R. Ewing on "Dallas" in a more obvious and straightforward manner? Looking about us, we are surrounded by media of all forms. We are faced with the need to help the theosophical philosophy pervade modern thought, to help clean up, raise, and ennoble modern thought. We have a hard job ahead of us, but we are not alone. We are sharing in the work of the Masters when we act to help keep struggling humanity moving along, toward its ambitious evolutionary goals, which ultimately lead to nirvana and liberation. And the biggest media that we can work with is all about is, so obvious that we do not often notice it and give it a thought: it is the current, actual, living karmic circumstances of life right now. This is an excellent starting point for this work! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:34:20 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: do_obe.* files The files are do_obe.txt do_obe.zip and do_obe.read_me they are definitely there. The person should ftp to vnet.net and login as ftp then do a cd to pub/theos-l the char. in no longer needed in the address. Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:23:43 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: IRC conferences John: Thats a nice idea. The only problem is do people have the right software to do this? I think i can IRC from Windows, but I don't know if, as a group we'd be able to do it. So: Question; who out there can IRC? Also: I think this may be nice in that it is part of the objective of the TS that states "exploring the potentials latent in humans". Though I don't know if the TSers as a group are as interestted in OOBEs as the CSers are. Also, Jouhn, are the DO_OOBE.* files on char.vnet? I got an internet e-mail from someone who said he couldn't find them at either location? Well, take care everyone, Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:48:42 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Hello to John Shafer Hi everyone: I'd like to say hello to John Shafer and welcome him to the list, and also to thank him for posting about the inter-Theosophical dialouge. John S. (as opposed to John Mead!), this issue of different theosophical "denominations" has come up here on the list off an on. Its not a pretty issue and it gets people quite fired up, protecting their favorite school of thought. In some respects this is understandable, but I feel it is a blatant contradiction to the principles of Theosophy. So, basically, I was really happy to see the results of the conference you posted. On one hand the cynic in me says, "Its about time people started doing this", and it seems that its more a digging of oneself out of a hole than any kind of real progress. On the other hand, the realist in me recognizies the sociological factors that cause spilits to occur in any type of social organization, and its very heartening to see different groups of theosophists working against these forces and trying to seek some type of unity. Let me comment on the 10 points raised in your post: This is absolutely essential. We can't forget that the theosophical teachings grew out of Victorian, imperialistic England. Since then we have seen two world-wars, the atomic bomb, and we are now talking to each other around the world on our computers. Simply stated, things have really changed a lot. This idea of clarifying the ideas of theosophy and making them relevant to the modern mind is probably my MAJOR interest at present. I am especially interested in the angle of clarifying the relavance of certain theosophical teachings towards modern science. To this end I have written a book entitled "Beyond the Physical: a Synthesis of Science and Occultism" which I am going to submit to TPH at Wheaton in a week or so, once the final editing of the manuscript is finished. At any rate, this idea of clarifying the theosophical teachings is a sticky one. A number of important questions arise immediately: 1. what interpretation of theosophy are we trying to clarify? For example, I follow Besant and Leadbeater very strongly, and my book reflects this. Other theosophists follow perhaps Blavatsky's writtings, or G.D. Prurucker (sp?). So, who's ideas really *represent* the "teachings of theosophy". The difference in the ideas is a major reason for the splits present right now in the society. This issue has to be tackled head on and with an open minded courage, because before we can clarify the teachings, we need to define what they are. 2. how shall we clarify them? What are we trying to achieve here? Do we want to give a slick MTV look to theosophy? Are we trying to make the ideas respectable to the accepted intellectual establishment? Are we trying to create a religion? What? What is it we want to say to the modern world about what theosophy is? To me, I have found theosophy to be an kindof a Noah's ark of ideas that science has rejected but are relevant for understanding the hidden sides of humankind and Nature. But others do not see this or have the background in science to see the necessity for such a viewpoint. I would suggest that a type of historical/sociological/psychological analysis of the theosophical society would do a lot to clarify what the TS is. I mean, the TS evolved in responce to 19th century materialism. It was a countercultural responce to the accepted society of the day. Today this society no longer exists. Today we live in a world of Mega corporations, today we live in a world where the dominant forces are still basically completely secular. We live in a world of tremendous economic disparity. We must look at the following in an attempt to clarify the teachings of theosophy: 1. Why the 19th century created theosophy to begin with. 2. How the world has changed since then. 3. How the TS has changed since then. 4. We must ask: has the TS stayed in step with the world? Has it lost touch? What? So, this is a big issue. No question. I want to make clear that I'll do everything in my power to help deal with this issue. 2 Interestingly, I think that if we undergo the process of self-transformation that is taught in Theosophy, we don't really require thesophy as a teaching anymore. This is kind of like how the final Greek archon (king), whose name I forget right now, abolished his archonship so that democracy could proliferate in ancient Athens. Once we mature emotionally, psychologicall and spirtually beyond a certain point, we no longer need any type of dogma as psychological "training wheels". This fact must be dealt with by theosophists. 3. If heart dominates we get an ignorant kind of nebulous emotional sentimentaility. If mind dominates we get the sterile kind of world that we live in today that has been created by a modern science preoccupied only by quantity and not quality. The real essence here is by opening up to *spirit*. Spirit, which theosophists describe as the buddhic plane and buddhic body, transcends both mind and emotion and serves as a force to polarize both. Therefore, the issue is not to balance mind and emotion (heart), but to become open to spirit, to buddhi and allow this force to take over both our mind and our heart. 4.< Participate in theosophical activities with creative energy> This is actually related to the other points in the list: 6. < Adapt theosophy to the contemporary world and language:> 7. 8. 10. These 5 points all tie together and its misleading to seperate them thus. The essence of these five points can be stated this way: how do we, as theosophists, fit into the world? What is our purpose and what are our goals? All these 5 points revolve around this central question. And this comes back to the idea of clarifying the teachings of theosophy: who are we? what is our self image? and again, how to we fit into the world? I think what has happened throughout this century is that theosophy has become just another cult. After the death of Blavastsky, things started to fracture. The Pasadena branch broke away when Besant became president, and Steiner spit off in Germany. And this trend continued and had crystalized by the end of WW II into the various sects that exist today. Frankly, when an organization says "to form a nucleus of universal brotherhood" but has this kind of history, its simply embarrasing. I think we, meaning all theosophists, need to face up to this and deal with it. On the other hand, theosophy has had its influence too, as was recognized by this conferance. But the question is: does that influence still exist, or was it merely an effect from days gone by? And another thing about some of these goals, like pulling in youth, or adapting theosophy to the modern world. One thing we definately do NOT want to do is what desperate middle age people do who are beginging to realize that they are getting old; they try to regress back to a youthful posture. They try to stay up with the latest fashions and trends, and its simply a silly posture and the youth see through this kind of stuff. So, I think the idea of trying to "jazz" theosophy up and make it look like MTV, or to make it "fun" would be futile and absurd things to do. I think we need to recognize that the TS servED a very important purpose early on, but this purpose is no longer valid. The TS played a role in forming the 20th century, but now the 20th century is almost gone, and so is this role. The question is: what can we do now? First, we must evaluate the spotted past of the TSes and hold this evaluation side by side with the contributions of the TS throughout this century. This will help to give us a balanced self image of what we are right NOW. Next we must ask: what do we want to become? And here, what we need to do in answering this question is to be accutely sensitive to the needs of the modern world. We not only have to open up to other spiritual traditions (as item number 5 in the list states), we have to come down off the high horse of spirtual rightiousness and be open to the secular world too. If we continue to go about with a dogmatic attitude at any level, we might as well just shoot ourselves now. So, to wrap this up, I really applaud the effort of the Krotona school to resolve the divisivness that exists amongst the various sects of theosophists. However, if we truely want to affect a change in theosophy as an institution, we must realize that an institution can only transform when the individual members of that institution have undegone personal transformation. We have before us an exacting task that will requite courage, intellect and will. we can ignore the challenge and slowly fade away into history or we can face up to the challange and grow and survive as a viable system of thought. Take care everybody, and again John Shafer, welcome! Don DeGracia From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 01:47:15 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: thoughts on Theosophy Game... The idea Chris has on a Theosophy Game is very intriging. Perhaps it should be a related suite of games, with each one teaching various Theosophical goals. e.g. I thought that the real world is a perfect example... you have in society a group(s) of organized semi-secret Fundamentalists who wish to dictate and mandate Morals, Religion, Politics etc. they release mis-information etc. The assets used to fight these societal forces could take the form of joining various organizations or manipulating them to further a specific cause (such as World Peace, Hunger, Poverty, various Social Freedoms or Political Rights too). The world would consist of various organizations to be used and coordinated to achieve this goal (Theosophical Society, FreeMasonry, Unitarian Universalist Service Committee, United Nations, various Governments, Corporations, Religious groups etc.). The object would be to maximize world harmony and promote the on-going 'spiritual' progress of Humanity; to eliminate hunger, Ignorance, Despotism, Tyranny etc. The fighting would be done through the manipulation of the Media and other "World" organizations. People could choose professions such as Political Activists, Conflict Resolutionist, Politician, News Caster, Clergy, Media/Film Star, Author/Producers, non-profit Business managers, Debater, etc. They could join Societies, create News stories, direct and gather funds for specific purposes, infiltrate other organizations (??) etc. The concept would be to ensure the survival of the "Cause" throughout the various lives of the players. One could add in Siddhi's selectively for advanced players. Also various Forces from higher planes could be advised, consulted, and empowered. kinda like what we already do... Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 17:42:49 -0400 From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@CompuServe.COM> Subject: theosophy-games To all who have commented on spreading theosophy through games - May I offer words of encouragement for you to continue your effort. What an absolutely marvelous idea!! I don't have adequate technical expertise to actively help in the project. For those who do, please forge ahead. I'll watch your progress on theos-l with great interest. Peace with Justice to all sentient Life - Leonard Cole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 01:39:46 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: Other Theosophical Worldviews This one is by Eldon Tucker ---- When we gather to hold a conference on Theosophy, there are only so many different things that we can say and do. Many issues arise. How do we apply Theosophy in our lives? What things can we do in our theosophical work to become more effective in spreading the Teachings? What words and means can we use to make Theosophy more interesting to the public, to draw attention to it? At the recent conference in Krotona, the ideas expressed were similar to those at the one in 1984. And the basic themes arise in any theosophical lodge. There are basic questions that we need to consider, and not many good answers. One difference at the recent conference, though, was a growing sense of acceptance, a feeling of companionship among the partici- pants. In the past, things have been more aloof, if not hostile. During a talk now, someone might whisper "How can that guy believe such a silly thing?" In the past, there might have been anger and antagonism. The growing goodwill among the members of the different societies comes from meeting, learning about, and coming to know the members and philosophies of the other groups, information that was not given out in the past. You could go to some theosophical group, and they would not tell you, or even their new members, of the competing theosophical lodge across the street. Hopefully the goodwill and free exchange of information and ideas will last for a long time before it subsides. These things are cyclic, and the day will come when we go our own ways again. For now, we are in a time of cooperation. Our biggest enemy to this cooperation is the sense of intolerance. There are others in fundamental disagreement with us. Our problem is the inability to have a free, friendly exchange of ideas with them. This intolerance can show up in different ways. Some are subtle. There are several worldviews in the theosophical community. These represent complete systems of thought about how life works, from the nature of the universe, our purpose in existence, the nature of Theosophy, and the inner structure of the universe. It embraces cycles of manvantaric proportion and things closer to home, like what happens when we are asleep, or what happens after we die. There are not just differences among individuals regarding various points, where all resolves to personal opinion. We have completely different systems of thought. We have one system centered on Blavatsky, Judge, and perhaps *The Mahatma Letters.* There are also the ULT/Crosby and the Point Loma/Purucker amplifications. And there are the Besant/Leadbeater and the Alice Bailey variations. These are but a few of the systems. The intolerance arises when we stick to our worldview, and just get angry when someone else says something that challenges some of its basic assumptions. We need to admit that there are other worldviews, even within our theosophical community, and allow them free expression. It is not a personal attack when someone else says something that denies something that we take for granted. A good example is regarding the place and purpose of psychic powers. In the early days of the Theosophical Society, HPB or her Masters did not teach astral projection or the occult arts. They had knowledge and experience of them. But they choose not to teach them or provide clues to help anyone get these powers. In certain theosophical worldviews, the cultivation of powers is considered harmful, and a philosophy that stresses development of the mind and the spiritual nature is emphasized. From these worldviews, the Adyar TS has in the past been seen as lost over to psychism, to the maya of chasing after phenomena. There were a few individuals like Joy Mills. She was considered ok because of her extensive study of *The Secret Doctrine,* but most Adyar people were considered as "lost." This has been the attitude in the past, but with the growing communication between the various groups, the hostility and the negative stereotypes are going away, and there is more of an open sense of cooperation and appreciation. The dropping of stereotypes needs to be done by everyone if it is to succeed. Those in the Besant/Leadbeater worldview need to drop their negative images of other groups. Some of us study the original Theosophy of Blavatsky. We are not trapped in dusty, outmoded ideas of Victorian, imperialistic England. There are no people plotting to assassinate the character of certain figures in theosophical history. The refusal to accept certain ideas--like group souls, the deva kingdom, or the seven rays--may not be because certain people have not read enough Theosophy to appreciate the brilliance of those ideas. They may, on the contrary, have read too much Theosophy to find those ideas acceptable. When we seek to clarify the theosophical Teachings, it is important to specify in terms of which context we clarify them. Which worldview are we describing things in? Failing to do so is really denying there are other worldviews; it is a subtle intoler- ance of others, of people that see things differently. Some of us may have studied one form of Theosophy, then in later years came to learn and accept another. We've come to appreciate how different the belief systems are. For any of us, though, we must not cling so tightly to our current favorite that we feel insulted and angered when our basic assumptions are questioned. In a way, it's like some kids sitting, ready to play a board game. Some are playing one game, according to one set of rules. Others are playing another game, with different rules. The board and most of the pieces are the same. When someone playing the other game does a move, it seems unfair, outrageous, like cheating, when interpreted in terms of our rules. But it can be understood if we accept that there are other games, and the other kid's moves were done fairly, but according to a different game. How can our different worldviews peacefully coexist? Not by repression, where one view is enforced as the standard and all ideas must be interpreted in its terms. We cannot cause peace by saying the Besant/Leadbeater or the strictly Blavatsky standard is in charge, and all communications are interpreted in its terms. Rather than bring peace, such a move would drive away people and bring back the rifts between groups. We need to work on tolerance in our views. This is not according to "I said something first so keep quiet and do not argue with me." Without getting angry, nor questioning the intelligence or character of anyone, we can politely see that our views are properly represented too. Our duty is to see that what we know is clearly and truthfully expressed, that what we know is heard and not hidden in silence. There may be some idea that we consider as so true that it goes without question, yet other Theosophists may consider it outrageously controversial. Or we might find exception with something that is being discussed. Let's relax and lighten up a bit, and not cling too tightly to our worldviews. And let's see more open discussion of the competing ideas. When we do not allow the other worldviews a voice, we miss much, and we shut off communication with our fellow Theosophists. We have a lot to learn from each other. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 05:26:07 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Re: Other Theosophical Worldviews > Let's relax and lighten up a bit, and not cling too tightly to > our worldviews. And let's see more open discussion of the competing > ideas. When we do not allow the other worldviews a voice, we miss > much, and we shut off communication with our fellow Theosophists. > We have a lot to learn from each other. > well said !! Peace -- John Mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 06:19:42 -0400 From: John Mead Subject: Archives I wanted to reiterate that if anyone needs help accessing the Archives to please send me an e-mail message requesting help. This includes any questions regarding the operation of the theosophy discussion lists too. Peace -- John Mead jem@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:50:20 -0400 From: zgg002@sol1.solinet.net Subject: Re: Any Thoughts? > I need some help with a project I'm working on and I don't have the requisite > scholarship to make it the best it can be in any kind of reasonable timeframe. > If you're game, here's the deal: Hi, The first hero I could think of that combined the action of Rambo with the spiritual qualities of Mother Teresa was Kung Fu. I still watch that program. I think all of the superheroes of my comic book years were actually telling me about the powers of the subtle bodies (astral, mental) and so in a very subtle way preparing us for their future development. Before these "latent" powers can be safely developed we, the human race, need the development of the moral principles which will make these powers valuable tools in growth and not just a way to get things we (our desire elemental) want at the moment. Old lady in the TS once told me a story of writing to the Rosicrusians about how to develop her psychic powers and got a polite reply inquiring as to what she was doing with the powers she already had! This morning on the radio I heard a DJ ridiculing the Presidents remarks about automatic weapons and the need to ban them. In a culture where guns are consider a sacred right and we should be allowed to have them, play with them...so long as we don't shoot someone (animals and many other things excluded), it seems a "forlorn hope" that we could ever see a game such as you describe have any real impact. BUT, try, try, try as one Master said. There is great value in the effort. Lewis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 12:05:24 -0400 From: zgg002@sol1.solinet.net Subject: Re: Greetings from a new member > > Greetings fellow theosophists, > > I have recently joined your discussion group and would like to introduce > myself. My name is John Shafer. I have been a theosophist for about four > years now. I am currently living in San Francisco where I'm taking a > sabbatical from my teaching position in Connecticut, and taking some classes > at the Institute of Integral Studies. I have been active with the > Connecticut Study Center with occassional weekends at Pumpkin Hollow Farm. > This fall I spent three months at Krotona which was very enlightening in > several different ways. Besides teaching I'm also into media and would like > to say that I find Chris Moyer's idea of a theosophical computer game very > exciting. > > I have been silently monitoring your discussions for a few weeks to try and > become familiar with the topics and I must say I find the level of discussion > in this electronic format more in-depth than any I have encountered in real > life. I've been gradually becoming familiar with those of you participating, > but I'm wondering if there is a set of bio files available anywhere so that > new people can become acquainted with you? > > As far as my interests and philosophy is concerned I would describe myself as > pretty eclectic. Over the last year I have been trying to do a systematic > study of all religions both on the exoteric and the esoteric levels (a > daunting task, I know); I use TSD as a supporting reference for this. I am > also in the middle of reading the Cranston HPB biography which I find > fasinating. Most recently I've been studying transpersonal psychology and > astrology with Stanislov Grof and Richard Tarnas. I like astrology because > of it's fundamental integration of science and metaphysics which is something > I believe is crucial right now. I've also been doing some research on the > UFO phenomenon and the possibility of artificial objects on Mars. > > I definitely believe in a balance between intellectual and experiential > knowledge which I try to balance in my own life as much as possible. I > practice yoga and meditation regularly and have experimented with many > different techniques for exploring "other realms." > > For my first contribution to your forum I'd like to upload a report I > co-wrote about the Inter-Theosophical Dialogue which we are submitting to > various theosophical newsletters. I think the conference raised some > important issues about the theosophical movement. I'm going to load it in > the "theos-buds" topic which seems most appropriate for its content. I > welcome any feeedback you might have. Several of these issues will be > discussed at the "Post Modern Theosophical Dialogue" to be held next month > organized by April and Jerry H-E. > > John -- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lewis Lucas Chestatee Regional Library (404)532-3311 l_lucas@solinet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 15:06:06 -0400 From: Arvind Kumar Subject: Kriyashakti Paul/Jerry H-E, I have a couple of long responses from Jerry H-E, which I'll tackle in due course perhaps next week, but I have a few follow-up comments on Paul's message of yesterday, which I'd like to write just now for further commentaries by you two and others. > > BTW, my saying I adhere to Greg's kriyashakti theory about CWL > was probably an > overgeneralization. Specifically in the case of his power over > AB, I can only conclude that he could make her see whatever he > wanted to. How else could he have swept her along so > effectively? And ,in the case of the Wesak festival ceremony in the Himalayas, how could CWL make AAB see what he has described in the teaching attributed to him? It seems like either these ceremonies/ images are genuine and already existed, or CWL 'created' them in some part of invisible worlds which are not accessible to most humans (but which were accessible to AB and/or AAB). In either case, (based on my limited understanding of these phenomena), I am led to believe that CWL must have been a rather highly accomplished psychic. At least in the case of the Wesak ceremony which supposedly occurs regularly every year I find it hard to believe that AAB kept participating in it even after CWL was long gone, if indeed CWL was the originator/creator of it. Also there is a book I saw (which is out of print) written by a theosophist which has pictures(sketches) of the 'Masters', the Lords of the Seven Rays. What is your opinion of this type of literature on the Masters, and the many 'encounters' with one or several of the Masters on the 'inner planes' (perhaps in deep meditation or 'trance' state) that are described not only by AAB but also by Elizabeth Prophet and countless others? Do you deny the existence of the Masters (like K.) or do you believe that they do exist and can be contacted at a certain stage of the human evolution? Fraternally, Arvind From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 16:30:53 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Kriyashakti I'm not sure how much one needs to postulate an "accomplished psychic" and how much a highly suggestible subject. If you read bios of AB you will see that she allowed herself to be possessed as it were by a series of influences, centering on men around whom she constructed her universe. Bradlaugh, Aveling, Shaw, Judge, Chakravarti, Leadbeater, Krishnamurti among others. There was so little independence of thought and observation that when K. rejected the TS her mind virtually collapsed. Paradoxically, when she gave herself up to these influences she became very strong on their behalf. As for the Masters, it all depends on what you mean. Having gone into great length on this in the past, I don't want to repeat myself. Suffice it to say that I not only believe in them but believe that I have done all I possibly can to prove their existence-- the Masters of HPB, that is. Moreover, that this proof is persuasive enough to induce the nation's largest university press to publish my books. Whether TS leader subsequent to her has been in touch with them is not for me to say, because I judge on the basis of historical evidence. To my knowledge there is absolutely none in the cases of the folks you mention. But I am open to evidence if anyone has some to offer. Right now I am working on a sequel to The Masters Revealed which covers a large number of characters who CAN be shown by historical evidence to have been disciples of HPB's Masters. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 16:45:34 -0400 From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Other Theosophical Worldviews Thank you for a well-considered and heartfelt contribution. One thing this makes me think about is a point Nancy Coker mentioned about the Krotona event. Afterwards, some folks said that Theosophists had done well in the last decade at getting together and being harmonious about the things we agree on. But why not try to be harmonious while talking about our points of disagreement? Some such event was supposed to be in the works but I don't know if anything came of it. Another thought-- I personally am much more able to be tolerant of things outside the realm of Theosophy that strike me as nutty, than those elements within the movement that do. When I ask myself why, it's not easy to answer. Has something to do with feeling it's a betrayal of HPB to put her on the same plane as (fill in the blank). Anyway, this speaks to our group karma. We are chosen, if you will, to be a channel of religious reconciliation-- and yet amongst ourselves are a microcosm of the sectarian hostilities in the world. How could it be otherwise? What I have found is that we tend to be avoidant of points of conflict because we want to avoid the negative emotions they invoke. But I think we need the courage to deal with those points while struggling against the negative emotions. Quite a challenge, though, requiring a gradual desensitization. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 02:01:37 -0400 From: Donald DeGracia <72662.1335@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Other Theosophical Worldviews John: Eldon's letter certainly was very good. I agree wholeheartedly about tolerance of other viewpoints. And I especially agree with his metophor the kids playing the same game with different rules. From a certain perspective, that is exactly what is going on with the rifts that exist in the various Tses. Perhaps the next step after being tolerant to the alternative world-views that exist in Theosophy is to attempt to construct a "meta" Theosophy, which would be some kind of framework that would allow us a comparative analysis of the various world-vies within theosophy itself. In some respects this would be much like the way a historian can sit and compare and describe philosophies from different eras without showing any preference for any given era's ideas (at least *good* historians can do this!). As a matter of fact, I'm right now reading a book about the history of India and you can see how many of the different interpretations in theosophy stem from different schools of thought that have come from India over the centuries. And this is not just a metaphorical comparisson. These ancient Indian ideas are the ancestor ideas of theosophy. you can see how Blavatsky's ideas reflect specific Indian schools of thought whereas Besant and Leadbeater's teachings reflect other of India's philosophies. I have just been realizing this as I read and its quite an amazing discovery as far as I'm concerned. Though there is a lot of talk about yoga, eastern philosophy and such in theosophical circles, i think generally speaking, the average theosophist is ignorant of the fact that almost all of the different views in theosophy stem from different schools of ancient Indian thought or competing interpretations of various schools. So, again, the idea of tolerance is a big first step. The next step in clarifying what theosophy is would be to construct a meta-theosophy and preferably, one that can trace the roots of the different theosophical world views backwards in time to their origins in the metaphysics of ancient cultures. So, that's it for now. If you want to post this on THEOS-L so Eldon can see it, that would be nice. Talk to you soon, Don From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 1994 12:25:45 -0400 From: eldon@netcom.com (Eldon B. Tucker) Subject: excerpts from book This is Brenda. The following are excerpts from a book published in Japan. It is a translation. I realize it is quite lengthy, but was wondering how to present a shortened form of the book to publishers (magazine or book) and thought people might have some comments on what material they liked and which things I could maybe delete from my submission. Since I only took a few paragraphs at a shot, maybe there are concepts that people will not find complete. I've heard that it is acceptable to forward a few chapters and that book publishers can make known their interest or non-interest from that. I don't know if excerpts like this are acceptable. Please keep in mind that the book explains at much greater length and is over 100 pages long. Any suggestions about who to send it to would be appreciated. The author's name is Narayan Uchigaki. He worked with a translator in Japan and corrections were done by a Professor Emeritus who translates into English from German books in German libraries. He has his own organization in Japan and U.S. called The Vedanta Society and lives here in Redding, California on an ashram he has founded. TRANSPARENT DEW One drop of transparent dew fell. The light shone on it and created an angle. And so a geometry that was not visible previously became apparent. Transparency created transparency itself. That was the flower, the sun; that was time and space. Overlapping created sound, gravity, and color. Also, life was born out of that overlap of geometry. From the geometry of "now" that flies where there is no time or space, all was born and nurtured. The universe is but one large drop. Where Does Mystery Come From Where does the mystery of the universe come from? It seems to contain 'Angle', 'Line', 'Speed of light' and 'Distance'. 'Distance' seems to be especially mysterious. From that concept true mystery will be born. Man Has Played Too Much with Religious Language Man has played too much with a language about gods and with a language about people, using words like 'love', 'kindness', 'affection' in that childish game. God resides beyond that world of language. The universe is also beyond the world of language. Man has been living in the world of man or gods which is only involved in minds and feelings. He has been playing this kind of childish and superficial play. Human history has always been involved in these games. Now man must stop using such childish religious words and enter the deeper world. There you will find the world of PURE PHYSICS where 'angle' and 'wavelength' are talked about. There you will find the true nature of man. Your home, your native place can be found there. Go through the 'Transparent Angle'; beyond you will see the world of the vanished structure. If we stop to consider what we human beings suffer from... economics being one of the problems... we find that most of our sufferings stem from human relationships: man victimizing his fellow man. It is understandable that humans may become the prey of wild beasts. However, we are still at a very low level of civilization where humans prey upon other human beings. Such things are truly senseless. Mankind has not escaped from such stupidity after thousands of years. It is up to us to conquer it, if we are to make any real progress. You ask, why do we suffer? Because we are confronting each other. Confronting each other... that is to say, "in relativity". We are in positions of relativity. That is why we suffer. Our early ancestors had no relativity. They lived in Oneness with all things. Our ancestors breathed in the great "Prana" of the universe. For them, there was no death. Even after the death of the body, they did not consider themselves dead. That is how wise those people were. As time went on, however, men lost their wisdom. Religions came to them, saying, "You suffer because your mind is evil." Religions also taught them to love, to be kind. Although concepts like these have been repeated again and again for thousands of years, they have not been successful. Man suffered, not because he was not loving, but fundamentally because he was confronting his fellow men; they were in relative positions to one another. The problem is one of structure. Structure resulted in men confronting one another. That is why humans suffer. I am talking about how man may be saved, not in religious language, but from the geometric perspective. In essence, it is this problem of structure: we suffer because of the Structure of Relativity, because we confront one another. In order to save ourselves, we must return to the Connected Structure, to the Oneness of our early ancestors. All people are human beings more or less. Male and female, all persons are human and at the same time individuals. Just as the moon, stars, and space are all parts of the Self. That is why we must change our paradigm from the relative structure to the structure of Oneness. Unless we do so, this immense undertaking can never be accomplished. In firm recognition of this fundamental concept that "You and I are one," we must all of us join hands. The first step is for us to get back to this Oneness; the next step is for us to return to the Great Oneness with the whole of the Universe. Meanwhile, we Asian people, especially the Japanese, seem to have missed out on this first step, this relatedness between human beings that the American people are attempting to achieve. Our concern is directed towards Oneness with the Brahman, enlightenment. In Hindu teachings one also finds the phrase "I am you, you are I," --that American flash of inspiration. No matter how we direct our concentration towards the sky, towards the ultimate Brahman, we can never become one with the Heavens with such an approach, nor can we achieve the state of absolute purity. Do not skip that first step, "I am human, you are human"; make it securely yours. Since coming to America, I have come to recognize the importance of this principle. The Line of Eagle Wings is Singing The line is singing The line of eagle wings in flight That line sings. Here are curves, tenderness. Transparency. The line of eagle wings in flight. Full of confidence, that line is singing. Confidence is trusting oneself. That confidence creates the best line. Line, line, line sings. The line sings in its flight through the cosmos. There comes the smile, the smile. A secure and peaceful smile. The eagle is flying, consigning itself to the Universe, which creates the best line. One Living Line in Flight The eagle is this The eagle is this. It is a giant tree standing in the cosmos. One simple line. That single living line is the universe, the tree standing in the cosmos. The eagle flies, making the stars shine, one single line in flight. In that simplicity, the cosmos folds into one single line. Vibration. Vibration of a single line which is everything. The eagle flies, as a tree standing in the Cosmos. Having the star shine as its smile, it flies. Consigning, consigning itself to the universe in that single line. The actual substance of man is vibration, cosmic vibration itself. You must become a mass of vibration itself. If we compare a human being to a tree, the vibration is the trunk. The trunk consists of vibration; the branches and leaves are words. However, now we only have branches and leaves without the trunk. Branches and leaves do not make a tree but a shrub. When you have the vibration as your trunk, you'll find that the whole cosmos will become your trunk. The whole cosmos ... the whole cosmos becomes you. Do you see how important it is to become a cosmic vibration? Vibration... When you have that, you tremble. In actuality, the whole cosmos is trembling. We human beings also have that vibration within us, but without knowing it, spend our lives only in the sphere of cerebral languages, so that we are unable to escape from that illusory world that we have constructed. First, have that vibration within you. Then, you will feel that trembling. If you want to know where that trembling begins: It does not come from the head, but from the A-point, the point on the spine right behind the heart. That is the Center; it is somewhat like an antenna that responds to the Cosmos. Therefore it has to be developed by centering consciousness on that point. It is like a powerhouse. Ever since man developed language, we have all been living only with the head. Only with the head... we entered the head world. From now on, enter the world that starts at your spine, and feel that vibration. There is an airplane factory in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado. Every morning, the workers call out to one another, "Good vibration!" Now if this was Osaka, Japan, people would be calling out "How's the business going?" You see, money is already ingrained in the body of consciousness. Quite a bit different from the Rockies, isn't it? Try saying "Hi! Good vibration!" and you'll find that vibration permeating your expression. Where I am leading you now, you see, is not to the realms of knowledge or philosophy, but to the realm of vibration--a world of undulating waves. Take light, as an example; it is made up of both particles and waves. The very different properties of waves and particles are combined into one. The fact that light is composed in such a way indicates that there must be a world of structure. In the repeated pattern of its combinations, there is a sort of vibration. So you see, there is a realm of geometric structure of such vibrations that lies beyond the world of physics. Let us consider our clothing. Say we have a shirt that has patterns of red, yellow, multicolored flowers. That is what we perceive with our eyesight. Within the design of that fabric lies a certain structure that governs the outline of its flower patterns. That structure is the source of things, and it can be found in the realm of geometry. Geometry is the basic foundation, and the physical world is constructed on that foundation. Similarly, needless to say, as we human beings exist separately and individually, also all things exist separately and individually. But on a basic structural level, we are all joined together. We are one. The now commonly known DNA chromosomes contain that computer, and in that computer is each man's character, personality, and the whole of his personal history, composing a pattern. That pattern (our Karma) today is not too good. We need to break it down and reconstruct it in order to make it transparent and pure, in order to change the pattern that is incorporated in our chromosomes. To make such a change, it is essential that we know the proper structure. We have to get back to the Oneness, the Oneness we knew in the era of the Rig-Veda, in ancient India, when the stars, the moon, the sun, and the whole of Space was the Self. In that vibration of Oneness there is poetry, there is mythology. Since the time that Man severed that Oneness, that organic bond with the Cosmos, poetry and mythology have left him. Having been thus crippled, Man needed to invent crutches. He invented God. The people devised their own gods; they needed them for their support. When the mind starts to seek the pure, it grows transparent wings on itself. It goes from the "real" world to "unreal" realms of play, worship, celebration, and giving of gifts. I remember saying once, "There might be wings on that apple, too." Wings? Granted, it's hard to believe, but even though they cannot be seen, there just might be a pair of wings on that apple. They might be transparent wings... There are wings on an airplane. Those are wings we can see, physically, with our senses. Since we are satisfied to see only with our senses, we can't see wings on an apple. But that apple just might have wings and be flying through space. "An apple flying?" you might say, "Nonsense, it's right here sitting on the table." But the invisible wings, the invisible body of the apple just might be gliding through Space at this very moment. Its vibration is there for you to feel. When you look at the moon, feeling its beauty, if you would instead just try to feel the vibration of the moon, that would be marvelous. You would gradually feel as if a vibration were truly coming to you from the moon. It may not arrive right away, but your eagerness to feel it prepares you. Then, you begin to sense that you are receiving it. Then you feel it more strongly. .....In the same way, if you keep saying to yourself that an apple has wings, transparent wings made of fine, transparent vibration, you'll be creating for yourself a world of vibrations in which one normally feels such things. Similarly, you need to train yourself to incorporate the realm of geometric structures. Then your computers, those infinitesimally small ones within your chromosomes, will have poetry. >>>>>>(This next is a good answer to Don DeGracia's recent paper (Apr 27) about making clear, cut-and-dried statements about the different theosophical groups.) ..the soft-focused picture is the children's world. The reverse is the clear-cut, sharp focused world of grownups. Of course, a grownup needs to be sharp to survive; it is constantly in his mind to be keen and alert. Children see things in soft focus, since their minds are in soft focus. Even though their eyes see very clearly, their minds receive a softly focused, blurred image. The grownup's mind receives a clear, sharply-focused picture. However, for some reason he may see things differently from the way they actually are. For example, when you are afraid a harmless object may look to you like a snake or a wolf. Also, a person whom you are afraid of will look frightening to you, no matter how kind-hearted he is in reality. That picture was not only perceived by your eyes, but was distorted by your emotions. You are trying to be clear and sharp in the way you see things, but in fact, you are only grasping the pictures in your mind. Instead of directly receiving the message that accompanies those pictures, you receive false messages from your mind's screen on which you have projected your emotional biases. People with sharp, shrewd, minds have the kind of attitude that can create such situations: shooting at each other, robbing banks, getting chased by policemen. That is the kind of society that sharp adults have created, in which these things are inevitable. But when these sharp adults reenter the world of soft focus, all the confusion, conflict and harshness fade, and a gentler society comes about. That is to say, we have to turn back from this harshness to our soft-focused self, to the soft-focused picture. And even though it seems absurd to us now, who knows, the flower fairy [of childhood] may actually reappear. During the two months I was in India looking at the stars, all of this happened. I entered the vibrational realm, the Pure, and reached the Source behind it. Then I found that the Source is composed of "pure" vibrations, and that it is itself the Pure. This is something I knew to be true, not from my learning, but with my being. When your mind becomes pure, you enter the world of vibration, where you know by feeling, not by knowledge or learning. And it is when you are in the world of vibration that you begin to see the world of geometry. After encountering the Pure in Ajmer, India, I came back to Japan. There I began to have the feeling that there is a world of geometrical structure behind this physical world. I began truly to be able to "see". I could see, for example, three dimensions within a flat surface, a depth to a plane. There actually is a world with a depth to a plane. You don't usually see it. Normally you would only see a plane within a plane, a solid within a solid. However, I could also see a plane within a solid. How did I begin to see it?... Now that I think about it, for the previous two months I had been practicing "light speed-meditation" in India; that must have speeded up the computer in my brain. That was how I could see solids within a plane, planes within a solid. Then one day, while looking at a circle, I saw that since six circles of the same radius would fit on the circumference of the circle, the circle contains a hexagon. All visible circles have as their basis the hexagon. That is its structure. Being in the world of the senses, we only see the circle when we see a circle. But this circle is always supported by the hexagonal structure. Without the hexagon, there would be no circle. In this way, I began to see these three worlds, the manifest world, the world of structure, and the world beyond the structure. >>>>>>(Jerry, you spoke recently on paradigm shifts. How about this one?) Up until now, in the spiritual world, the circle was said to represent a harmonious mind, a concord with the universe. The circle was regarded as a good symbol, and it was worshipped. However, from now on, we may have hexagon worship. The two-dimensional age, the global age, and the hexagonal age... an interesting thought, isn't it? The hexagon can interact with any substance. The hexagon may be the foundation, the fundamental design of this cosmos. Each one of our cells is contained within hexagonal membranes. In the same way, this whole universe may have been formed on a hexagonal structure. You will find you have an ability to catch light. On that vehicle of light, traversing vast distances, you will use your new ability as a lever to fly to the border of the cosmos. Beyond that border you will find yourself at the Source, Brahman. That is the world of the Pure, the domain of structure without structure. The source of the universe, the home of all things is the transparent world, the pure world, a world without structure. Even if you have achieved that unity with Brahman, you must nevertheless descend once more to the actual world of Maya. Human beings are made to live in Maya. Your true duty is self-actualization in this world of Maya. In order to do that, you must actualize mythology. This is the most difficult part. You can reach the Brahman quite easily if you use the method of "light speed meditation", but that is not the end of it. You have to descend again to the world of Maya and meet with poetry and mythology. You have to make your own the world of "worship", of transparent angle, of the out-of-focus, of festivals, and of gifts. Now we are getting to the most important part. Distance is the source of energy, as you see in "Force x Distance = the amount of work." Especially an object which is moving at very high speed needs a great deal of distance for increasing its energy; force times distance creates energy. Speed, speed. Without speed and distance, you cannot fly this self of yours, the great bird, over the expanse of the universe. The great mythological vibration awaits there. Great bird, great bird..... Thou with great wings! When the Cosmos first appeared, there were only minerals. Next appeared plants, and then came creatures. The birth of animal life was actually quite recent. If we take twenty-four hours to represent the time from the birth of the Cosmos up to the present, the period since animals arrived would be less than one fourth of a second. That which appeared earlier, therefore, is closer to the origin....the Source. If we are to look for the Truth, it is best to start with matter, not with the Spiritual world. As an example, rock your body which is matter--from side to side. When you rock, you'll find that you are more attuned to vibration. When you enter the world of vibration, you will be in the world of geometry instead of physics. Our cells are a kind of computer. You are thus giving such vibrations to your computer. In this way, you will be getting closer and closer to your original state. Behind that state, then, is the Pure. Just as the Source is the Pure, the true nature of Man is Pure. When you rock your body from side to side, becoming attuned to vibration, you enter the material world, and gradually into a world of Pure Vibration. Becoming Pure through the mind and spirit, seeing with the mind, is not the way to enter the Source. The actualization of the real is not achieved by the mind or spirit, but only through the material. Through geometric structure you will find your way back to the original world of Pure Vibration. Then unnecessary thoughts, or the spirit born from knowledge and the senses, will leave, and your mind and spirit will be influenced by the Pure. Your mind and spirit at this time are not formed by the Pure that is at the source of the body, but by things like knowledge, thoughts grasped with the senses, and the need to be sharp and alert. All these are wrong. So rock your body, and put your trust in matter. Let matter come to the foreground, since matter is the true self in you. If you treat things in this way, then you will join company with material objects. The table is material, so is the air, so are the stars, that mountain over there; these material things far from you will be your companions. You can be close to many objects. It's interesting. Our lives are created by geometric designs. Even a single cell is a combination of structures. That is why, even in meditation, we need to train ourselves to enter the unfocused structure, rather than indulge in the worship of deities or the intellectual search for truth. We need to train ourselves to enter the soft-focused structure. In meditation, in your daily life, try to remember always that you are composed of soft-focused structures. Always say to yourself: soft focus, structure. From the structure, universal vibrations occur. ..to describe the Pure at the Source of the Universe in simpler terms, there is the element of "festival". Even in worship, rather than worshiping a deity as though He moves beyond your reach, worship as if you were playing with Him. No matter if He is Buddha or God; play with Him. A deity does not have to be a known deity. You can create your own. You can make up a deity from your imagination, and then you can play with him. Not only a deity~you can play also with the universe, or the stars. That ability to play is called "festival". There is a statue of Krishna in our headquarters in Osaka. When Tom was about four, he was sitting at the foot of a statue of Krishna, doing ORIGAMI (folding papers) with colored papers. He wanted to show Krishna how to do ORIGAMI. Right then, he heard the flute of Krishna playing. Interesting, isn't it? Such things actually do happen. There is a story of Krishna and Radha in India. Some people understand it as simply a love story between the male god Krishna and the female goddess Radha; a cheap and shallow view. It is much more than that. It is a story wherein one becomes Krishna and the other becomes Radha and they play and celebrate. I would like you to remember this. Krishna and Radha are of one and the same thing. And that one thing is celebrating, a "festival". >>>>>>(Don, here's the rest of the material on "making clear.") The people of this world want to be clear about everything, to make everything absolutely clear--such as, what is truth? Wanting to make everything clear is a characteristic of this world of the senses. Dogs have dog characteristics, cats have cat characteristics, and the primary human characteristic is that we want to make everything clear. Modern science has gradually been deviating from this attitude. Truth is seldom spoken of, and never clearly. The closest we can get to it is in symbols. When we enter the microscopic realm, there are obstacles of uncertainty, duality, and paradoxes. In the greater universe we reach the unifying ideas of time-space, mass-energy, matter-field: the uncharacteristic and ultimate unifying ideas. These are all symbols that were found, not truths that were reached. The human intellect and knowledge cannot go beyond them. If we look into the minute world of particles (protons, electrons, photons, etc.), the further and deeper we explore, the more soft-focused this world becomes. In order for us to understand the fundamental structure of the universe, it is necessary that we go beyond this "world perceived by the senses." Einstein also said that man cannot achieve his ultimate purpose until he has abandoned this idea of making things clear. The world of Truth that the philosophers and scientists have now discovered is, therefore, not a world whose nature is clear and well-defined, but a highly-involved world constructed by means of signs and symbols. Even if someone were able to say what truth is, his definition fades and is blown away before an unfocused picture of a single rose. Just as in Zen Buddhism, the Vedanta school of philosophy flatly negates all things. This hampers further progress and development. That is, it ignores the scientific approach that accompanies progress. However, Heidegger says history has brightness. If we begin with this concept, with the assumption that Brahman or the Absolute is the Source of brightness, then everything has brightness. We feel the essential brightness, apart from the superficial brightness or darkness of illumination. ...I could define space as a pulsating being that opens, that has a life of its own. In this manner, we can go directly into space. That beings in existence can exist, means that there is enough open space that allows them to exist. Therefore, space is the substance that allows all things to be. And it is pulsating, living, and opening... opening--which means that it's waiting. It's wonderful, the fact that there is something that is open and waiting. That makes us pulsate with life. That pulsating, open existence of space is nothing but the Home (the Source) of all things. There is an excellent book by Maeterlinck called "The Life of the Bee," in which he says that human beings should learn from the bees. People nowadays are so driven by greed and personal ambition, however, they wouldn't think of emulating honey bees. There is no excuse for man's behavior. The more advances he makes in technological and medical fields, the faster he is being sucked into the black hole of destruction. Mankind was originally composed of transparent angles, but gradually that consciousness became contaminated; people forgot about their origin. Now they are riddled with all varieties of greed; it has distorted their faces. Even their DNA reveals nodules of greed. There are no limits to the excesses of some people. Mythology can be defined as something that has transparent angles. So when transparent angles become implanted in us, our actual being--the mythical quality--is revived. Gain or loss, like and dislike, love and hate, --such worlds no longer belong to the present. Such worlds must disappear from within us. Let us imagine a tree. We see that this tree has worm holes in its bark. We begin to treat those worm-eaten parts on the tree's outer shell. But if the roots of the tree are ravaged and we're unaware of that fact, the tree will die no matter how much surface treatment we give it. In the same way, if you tell someone he is not loving, that he is consumed with greed, you are attempting to treat the tree's bark but you are not dealing with the sickness at the root--the sickness of having forgotten the geometric angle. That person's weakness will continue to grow until it finally destroys him. The work of the bees is simple. There has been a lot of snow this winter, and it has been snowing ever since the twenty-fourth, Christmas Eve; the bees haven't been able to go out anywhere. It cleared up yesterday, and I went to see their hives. Already, many of them are flying out in search of honey. They are amazing. The least amount of warmth, and off they go to work for the whole group. Though there is a lot of honey in the boxes, as soon as the weather clears, they fly away. Now if these were human beings, and already wealthy, with lots of food and everything, they would no longer work. Not the bees. Even if bees have lots of honey, even if it's so cold out that there's snow on the boxes, at the first sign of sunshine, they fly off to collect what amount of honey they can. They work very hard. They don't live by good and bad. It seems that they were born to work. In certain early religions it has been said that the true nature of man is divine, holy. I think, however, that is going too far, making a god of man. If we do not study man's true nature scientifically, we are heading in the wrong direction. Even though we may think it right, we are mistaken. We shouldn't swallow statements just because the great Saints said them long ago--that fact doesn't make them right. We need to use much more of a scientific viewpoint when we look at the self, the universe, and God. It is difficult to think that the angle is our very Source. That is truly hard to comprehend. It is somewhat easier to think that we are originally holy and good, that we are love, or materially, that we are composed of such elements as aluminum or iron. However, if we start thinking about the universe and mankind in terms of geometry and structure, we will begin to see and understand that things really do move in angles. There was a time when I wondered how scissors cut paper. It is not that scissors, being made from steel, are harder than paper. Neither is it that the blades are well-sharpened. It is the angles that do the cutting. Ever since that time, I have believed that the angle is the key. The angle has the energy to create and accomplish things though it is a little different from ordinary energy, but the angle is the source of functioning. In this universe, everything is moving; nothing is still. And all movements follow angles. For example, if you keep pulling on a door that can only be opened by pushing, you'll never open it. You can pull all your life, and it won't open. The door is made so that if you push at a certain angle, it will open. Similarly, our destinies will not open up for us if we keep forcing them in the wrong direction. Therefore, we have to make the "transparent angle" the key, if we want to open up the right paths to our Karmas. Everything in this universe moves according to that rule, the correct and transparent angle. Only human beings are moving through wrong angles. You may possibly find someone whom you feel has transparency. Such people have speed in vibration. Not just ordinary speed, but the speed of light. Take the speed of light from the stars into yourself. Pour it in, paying no attention to the clamor from the outside world: dwelling in the far, far distance, the computer of your body-cells is moving at the speed of light, and your consciousness is only directed towards what is real.... If you are such a person, you will be transparent. The important thing is to ask yourself whether you are directing yourself towards what is real, whether you have ever touched the real. Real, real, real, think only about the real. Among the various things in this world, which is the real? What is real within you? Have you ever touched it? Ask yourself. Of course, a god can be said to be real, but do not connect it with God all at once. Lay that aside for the moment and plunge into the reality that's within yourself. Then start searching for the transparency within you. Try hard to become that transparency. Try hard to approach what is real. As a short cut, whisper to your inner "worship", "My true nature is worship itself." Then, the response "YES!" will come from worship itself. And when you encounter that true nature, the A point on your spine will tremble. This kind of experience, this conscious feeling of something within your body, is called "actualization". It is vastly different from knowing with the head. Your head may say, "Oh, so this is the real thing," but feel that with your whole body. Then, like that eagle line filled with vibration I referred to earlier, you will be able to stand alone in the universe. In our actual world, there is hardly ever any mythology. We are happy calling ourselves civilized and cultured, but on the other hand, we have forgotten mythology. When mythology enters our lives and illumines our minds, only then do we become authentic beings. A man asked me many things about mythology. "What is mythology exactly? What is it like? Please explain it to me so I can understand," he asked urgently. So little has been told us about mythology, we have no clear idea of it. What makes it difficult to enter the world of mythology is knowledge. We cannot enter the mythological world with knowledge. We need to know many things in order to live, but if we concentrate on those things alone, we will not be able to enter the world of mythology. Knowledge, most of all, gets in the way. A religion, therefore, based on doctrines of reason, cannot help us enter the world of mythology, for the world of knowledge perceives only the actual. If you see only the actual, you will be wandering in the world of knowledge. Mythology is not to be found in such actual things. Mythology is "unreal". It is shadowy, indistinct, but from a cosmic perspective it is perfectly clear. By contrast, this actual, intellectual world seems to be clear, but in fact is an inaccurate, utterly insincere and opaque world. Or, putting it more clearly, it is a world of untruth. Mythology has absolutely no relation to God. However, a mythological tale may or may not contain a god. Now I'm going to tell you how to deal with gods by summarizing prior religious faiths. Religious faiths include monotheistic religions such as Christianity, Judaism or Islam, and polytheistic religions such as those found in India and Greece. For those of us who deal with mythology, the presence or absence of God does not matter. However, those who have faiths believe those Gods or gods do exist; on the other hand, atheists hold that Gods or gods do not exist. If you should say there is no need to worship a deity, that's the end of it. That is, however, rather a cheap idea. Why and how is that so? Imagine there is a glass before you. That glass was, of course, made by man. It's a glass and that's the end of it. However, in addition to seeing and dealing thus with things, one should also play with that glass. "What nonsense! I have no time for such silliness," you may say. Take water as another example. If you put your hands in the water and shake them, you will create waves. Stir up the surface of the water and it feels good, because that is play. Another example: One plus one equals two. That is correct. Yet it is not absolutely so. It is only so according to reason. Something like this is logical but has little value. In addition to this logical world, there is a world that is much more precious and valuable, that is, as I said earlier, the world of "play," wherein you play with things as they really are. Without the flexibility found in playing, you cannot grasp Truth over and above the world of reason and knowledge. That is because "play" is an aspect of Truth, an aspect of mythology. Even if there were no God, try playing with him once. You have to provide that kind of opportunity for acceptance. If there is no God, then there is no need to worship...well, that may be so. However, that makes for a cold and flippant character. To put it plainly, it turns you into a completely false person. Though many people in this world believe they are rational and that they are doing the right thing, nowhere is true reason without "play". John Schafer: My husband and I write on this bulletin board and I usually try to make a submission once a week on Mondays. I am expecting our second child and enjoy being a mother and a homemaker. I worked at the T.S. Headquarters in Wheaton when I was 22-25, then returned to University of Illinois to complete my by B.S. Degree, major psychology. I have been doing genealogical research in my home using the computer and also the genealogical libraries, etc. We just saw SCHINDLIER'S LIST at the movies and when I think of what I've learned recently concerning the seven root races and sub-races from THE SECRET DOCTRINE, that the fifth race is called the European and look at European history as we know it, I am really concerned about the European mentality being a global one. Europe, as you know, has a long history of war, even to this present century with Germany's agression. I wish we could move more quickly to the American race, and that perhaps here we could find release from this constant activity of conquering and all of its accompanying limitations on humanity's freedom. If an Emperor conquered, he could order the new subject's religion. Although people found this difficult to accept, what choice did they have? When I think about the computer game people are planning, I think how hundreds and hundreds of years were spent preparing for battle, entering battle, and healing from battle. If the game were to emulate real history, I would be nothing but repelled and distressed at playing it. Perhaps it could only engage on the future of humanity as a bright one.