From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:17:08 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Brotherhood

     After reading your comments to Eldon, feel compelled to make
a remark or two on his behalf.  I have known Eldon for over
twenty years, and feel that any description that suggests that he
is "exclusive" doesn't fit.  Eldon has worked openly and
unselfishly for many theosophical efforts and projects,
regardless of the politics of the people he is working with. I
feel the meanings of Eldon's comments have been misunderstood,
perhaps through careless phrasing on his part (don't we all do
this at one time or another?), and no doubt he will try again to
clairify his meaning.  But I can say from twenty years of knowing
Eldon, that there is nothing "exclusive" about his mentality,
beliefs, or the way he works for theosophy.  If you give him that
benefit of a doubt, I think you will see his comments in a better
light.

     Now, regarding your comments to John Mead: Since the purpose
of the modern theosophical movement (as I understand it) was to
work towards a world unified in "brotherhood," theosophy is
hardly to be blamed for failing to unify the world through
technology, since that was not the goal.  In fact, Blavatsky was
well aware of the fact that we were in a technological cycle, and
gave that as a reason why the theosophical movement was so
important: "to stem the tide of materialism" she says. Whether or
not the theosophical movement was successful in this effort, may
be a point of disagreement, but I believe that in this manner,
the theosophical movement was enormously successful (but I will
curve my temptation at the moment to expand on this idea).

     As for the "branchings" being "ruptures, fissions," call
them what you like.  I for one am neither "embarrassed" nor
"proud" of them. I see The Theosophical Society as following the
same pattern as every other religious, philosophical and
spiritual effort.  A movement begins, them splinters.
Christianity began with Gnosticism--I think the historians count
about sixty groups--then there was the Eastern and Western Roman
Churches vying for power, culminating with the Roman church
excommunicating the Greek church in 1000 A.D. through an edict
posted on the high alter of the Hagia Sophia.  Then came the
Protestant "revolution" that now has hundreds of sects.  The same
with Buddhism.  Some scholars count 2000 sects.  Even Islam is
divided into the Suni and Shi'ii, with disagreements within them.
Platonism lasted only fifty years before Aristotle went off and
established his own competing school.  From these have come
school after school of philosophy, each contending against the
others. Do you think that The Theosophical Society was supposed
to have been exempt from those forces that divide every
organization?  If so, then on what basis?  Look at letter 19 of
Jinarajadasa's LETTERS FORM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM, First series.
K.H. writes Olcott that:

"H.P.B. has next to no concern with administrative details, and
should be kept clear of them....But this I must tell to all:--
With occult matters she has everything to do....In the adjustment
of this European business [i.e. the establishment of the E.S.],
you will have two things to consider--the external and
administrative, and the external and psychical. Keep the former
under your control and that of your most prudent associates,
jointly; leave the latter to her."

Here we see that the Masters made a separation between the
external Society and the internal movement. If we are to look for
the causes of the splintering, a good place to start would be
with the initial decisions made by Olcott and his associates both
before and after Blavatsky's death.  Do you know the year and the
situation behind the first split?  I submit to you that it wasn't
in 1895 when the American Section became an independent
organization.  I submit to you that the first split occurred ten
years earlier, in 1885, over the Coulomb conspiracy, which
resulted in H.P.B. being forced to leave India.  It is true that
no new "Society" was created, in fact, H.P.B. and Olcott where
very careful to keep their disagreements away from public view,
and to continue to show a united front.  But the correspondence
between them during this period is very revealing, and much of it
still unpublished.  It shows a division of a much deeper and
fundamental sort; a crippled the Theosophical Society as a
spiritual body.  I suggest that you look at the open letter
H.P.B. wrote in 1890, a few months before she died, where she
states her case concerning this "split," and the damage done to
The Theosophical Society.  After reading it, ask yourself why
this open letter was not published until 1972, and only then in a
magazine independent of the Adyar Society.  You will find the
letter in Volume XII of the Collected Writings, beginning on p.
156.

     Your example of "synthesis" in science, already has a name
in philosophy and religion.  It is called "syncretism."  like
your "fusion" of science, it is the bringing together of ideas
from different movements, thus creating a third.  An oft given
example is the syncretism of Catholicism with Yoruba tribal
religion, creating Voodoo.  Obviously from this example, the
issue from these "fusions" are not necessarily improvements.  An
excellent argument can be made that the various contending ideas
that fall under the label of Theosophy are really more the result
of syncretism, rather than organizational "fissions."

     Now I would like to express my own opinion regarding the
potential of the T.S., or any of the Societies for that matter,
in being a "clearing house for an all embracing eclectic
spirituality."  I think that they first need to clear out their
own karmic cob-webs before they can do any meaningful work in
this area.  But before I expand upon that, I need to share some
of my own background, to give you an idea as to where I am coming
from:
     Upon first joining the T.S. thirty years ago, I also fought
for the same vision of "fusion, synthesis, and inclusiveness"
that you now speak of, and still havn't given up the fight. I did
however achieve a minor step towards success in that battle: Ten
years ago, I organized a networking conference at Krotona, with
the idea of bringing the theosophical splits into meaningful
communication with each other.  The speakers included some of the
most important representatives of the various groups: Henry
Geiger, Kirby Van Mater, Emmett Small, Ted Davy, and Jim Perkins.
The conference drew 150 people, and the concept caught on like
wild fire all over the world after that.  Over the next years,
there were networking conferences organized by members in
Societies representing all three major traditions, and a half
dozen networking newsletters were begun, including the
independent THEOSOPHICAL NETWORK.  Two of them are still
circulating.  The Theosophical Society (Pasadena) gave official
recognition to the conference and now continues this effort as a
matter of policy.  U.L.T., because of the nature of the
organization was unable to give "official" recognition, but did
everything in their power, within their parameters to support it.
Though The Theosophical Society (Wheaton/Adyar) never gave
recognition to the conference, I note that Krotona is now
organizing a networking conference this Spring, and I'm anxious
to see how they handle it.

     Based upon the above experience, I believe that there are
things that we can do to effect change in the Theosophical
Organizations, but we can't erase their karma, and it is not in
the nature of Organizations to admit to their errors.  I believe
the Theosophical Movement is still alive and well, but finds
little opportunity for expression through Theosophical
Organizations.  But I also feel that the Organizations still
fulfill important functions, such as the publication of books and
educational materials.  Though I'm active with three
organizations, most of the work I do for the Movement is done
independently of them.

     You might be interested in an editorial I wrote for the
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FEDERATION NEWSLETTER, Winter 1986, and
reprinted in the ECLECTIC THEOSOPHIST, May/June 1986.  The
Editorial was entitled: "Are We Chained to the Past", and states
my position in greater detail.  I ended the article with a
quote from Edwin Markham:

He drew a circle that shut me out,
     Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout:
But love and I had the wit to win
     For we drew a circle that took him in.

And I closed by saying: "we need to seek the positive in others
and find ways to work together.  The work of theosophy is too
important to be handicapped by the pasts of its own
organizations. If the theosophical fraternities cannot do the
work for which they were designed, the Theosophical Movement will
find another way of expression."

     And I believe that it has already done so. I will make the
whole article available if there is any interest.

     One or two more general comments on other communications:  I
think someone suggested that history be uploaded into a reference
file.  On the surface, that sounds good, but on the other hand,
everyone has their own version of history.  I would rather see
historical discussions remain where they can be dialogued and
commented upon.  I firmly believe in the value of having
knowledge of our theosophic past. As George Santana once wrote to
the effect that if we forget our past, we are condemned to relive
it.  But we need to keep it where we can discuss it from our
different view points.  If you want a book on history, lots have
already been written.

     My final comment, is in regard to part two of an article
naming Newton, Blavatsky and Jobbs as "avatars." As to the merits
of this argument, I have no comment, but I think it evokes an
important point.  When writing expositions of this kind, we need
to be careful about defining terms when we use them differently
from the accepted dictionary definitions.  For a word like
"avatara" it is especially important, as it has a dictionary
meaning, as well as being defined differently by writers in
different theosophical traditions.  Perhaps definitions were
given in part 1, but my point is a general one, and not on this
article.
       Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:14:09 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Theo.exe help (windows)

Mike -

was your problem with the theos/Windows help file (point 1)
due to a bad source??

I have placed the .exe and .uu on the site provided
by Eldon.  I downloaded what Don had placed on Compuserve
( the .exe) and put it on the netcom.com ftp site (/pub/eldon/theos).
The .uu is a uuencoded version which should be e-mailable
to almost anyone (they will need uudecode and MS-windows to view
it).

Has anyone else tried the version that ended up on netcom.com ??

Thanks --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:08:49 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: inclusion vs exclusion

Thanks to all for the thoughtful feedback.

I wanted to flush my list of comments before it gets
lost (again).

1) Welcome Jay!  glad you are back with us!  Hope to hear more from you.

2) I found Michael's Terminology in his essay to be well chosen.
I seem to recall that the definitions were locally implied and
consistent throughout,  so that the emergent Light was easily
discerned (it burned the fog off).

3) I confess that Brenda sometimes leaves me in the fog; but I enjoy her
letters and they are always uplifting! Thanks!

4) a general comment on future Theosophical movements; It is because
the movements are in a process of formulation that they appear
to be so fluid.  This is quite a different situation than outright fads
and ill-formed ideas or Theosophy-Lite.

5) Per Jerry's questions on Inclusion vs Exclusion:
I think that Inclusion within a mental scope in no way
implies that the concepts included are therefor ones which
are somehow selected because of a measure of worth.  They are included
only because they are present. Measures of worthiness are domained
on a different set-theory. period. All This is That, and that's all!
A personal Judgement is an ego-operator.  I have a strange belief
that this was a fundamental teaching in Christianity that has
been unfortunately crucified.  I think that when we get to basic
morals and ethics we would all agree anyway. So the problem of
Judgement is vacuous,  and we can focus on what actions we
select to perform/construct rather than focus on those to try to prevent
or destruct. i.e. Just create Good, and Shiva will do the rest! :-)


6) a general comment on the list:  I really enjoy the discussions
and hope that my comments are not taken as a personal criticism by
anyone.

It is alot like mental skeet!  we are all expected to fire!
if not, then why are we here?  The trick is to remember that Shiva will
ultimately destroy any score-cards that someone may foolishly keep!

Peace -

John Mead
(PULL!)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 19:56:20 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Some thoughts and questions.

          Some Thoughts and Questions:

The word inclusive suggests "containing all things"
while the word exclusive implies preferences and
containing only selected things.  While some say that
the ineffable Beness contains all things (and therefore
its nature is inclusive), and thus contains as much
hatred as it does love, we must take care as to some of
the possible ramifications of such a view.  For
example, should theosophy contain and embrace all
things?  Should theosophy condone and openly embrace
war, crime, hatred, revenge, suffering, and so on?
Should a theosophist agree with every opinion of every
other person?  Should I transcend my human ego, and
view *your* opinions as *my* opinions?  (Is not this
what our politicans do, all too often?)  Or should
theosophists embrace love and renounce hatred?

Obviously, inclusive and exclusive are bipolar - two
sides of a duality.  As such, we cannot embrace one
without attracting the other to our side.  As human
beings we cannot, in point of fact, have love without
hatred, peace without war.  In the Taoist sense, we can
eliminate the one only at the expense of the other.  In
the non-dualistic Vedantic sense, we can (and
eventually must) transcend both.  This is to say that
both sides of any duality must be abandoned.  To end
heads, we must also get rid of tails, and thus pitch
out the whole coin.  Either that, or we must simply
recognize that every coin has two sides to it, in which
case the problem more or less will resolve itself.

Should a theosophist embrace "all that is in human
spirit and mind" or should he/she selectively embrace
only those aspects which he/she believes to be the most
nobel?  Is karma a factor to be considered, or not?  Is
karma inclusive, or is it exclusive?

If my mentality says "all things are right," then where
is my morality and what will happen to my code of
ethics?  When I say "these things are right, but these
things are wrong" I establish and define my code of
ethics.  Sure, it is transient and relative to my
culture and to my personal experiences.  But is
morality better (or worse?) than amorality?  Should
future theosophists become amoral?  Or does
inclusiveness imply tolerance rather than acceptance?

Some say that there is an occult (ie., supra-human)
organization configured in the pattern of a secret
hierarchy that reaches out from invisible realms to
help humanity as a whole and also touches and uplifts
the intuitions of individuals in their time of need.
Are not theosophists a part of that organization, de
facto?  Am I not a member in good standing simply by
virtue of the compassion in my heart?  Does not my
position within this hierarchical Lodge depend
exclusively on the amount of such compassion (and
perhaps knowledge) that I am able to generate?  Is this
organization inclusive?  Or is it exclusive, barring
those who renounce compassion and who have elected to
serve only themselves?

Every human ego has its own beliefs and opinions; we
are surrounded on all sides by our own world view.
How many of us are able to relax our ego-istic world
view sufficiently to be sincerely tolerant of the
differing and even antagonistic world views of others?
Perhaps only a few percent?  How many of those few
are able to hold a holistic view, if this means
"transcending the purely personal ego level of
existence," (which is the only level of existence that
most of us know about)?  How many folks throughout the
entire world, are able to transcend their ego and view
things from the perspective of their individuality
(equivalent to raising conscious from the mental to the
causal plane)?  And for those few, how do they then
communicate with those who still remain on the mental
plane?  Then we must ask, are these precious few
advanced people inclusive or exclusive?

We are said to be under a new impulse today.  "This
impulse "levels" things, makes distinctions go away,
and makes things equal."  This sounds like the Sethian
Current of many New Age magic schools.  The Egyptian
god Set is equivalent to the Hindu Siva (or Shiva).
He also has the distinction of being the prototype for
the Satan (Shaitan) of Christianity.  In short, he is
the Great Opposer, because he opposes the work of all
of the creative gods and goddesses.  Thus Set opposes
Horus, and so on.  He imbodies the forces of spiritual
evolution and thus opposes all material manifestation.
Horus is king on the Arc of Descent, while Set rules
the Arc of Ascent.  According to HPB, we are currently
just beginning (ie., only for the last several millions
of years) the upward Arc of Ascent of the fourth Round.
This Sethian Current is indeed important today, as we
wind our way upward along the Arc of Ascent.  It is
the current of spiritual vastness, of formless infinitude,
and is so!

... sometimes described from the human perspective as a vast
desert or endless desolation.  Of course, Set was god of
the southern desert, so all of this fits together well.
The question is, How does it fit into theosophy and the
Theosophical Movement?  Should theosophists actively assist
this current?  And if so, in what way?

I would really like to hear from members (and this
includes those who, up to now, have said little) as to
how they would answer these questions.

                            Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 12:37:42 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: Theo.exe help (windows)

>Mike -
>
>was your problem with the theos/Windows help file (point 1)
>due to a bad source??
>
I downloaded the help file from netcom.com and a binary compare
showed it to be identical to the one you sent me. Of course, when I
tried it the helpfile had the same problems.
-----------
Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
mike@grenier.hawkmoon.mn.org (home)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 01:12:28 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Fog Index

When I said that Michael's article has a high fog index, I simply
meant that it had a lot of big words and long sentences, not that
it is obscure or distorted.  The following is from some stuff I
wrote for PeaceNet, for those who may be interested.


I will explain the Fog Index, for the benefit of those who may
not know about it.  I will briefly describe the Gunning Fog
Index:

The Gunning Fog Index is a measure of readability.  A fog index
of 11 means that the material is written on an 11th grade reading
level.  A fog index of 9 means that the text is on a 9th grade
reading level, and so on.  The Army writes all of its field
manuals, for example, on a 7th grade level.

How to calculate:

1.  Choose a random sample of text, about 100 words is preferred.

2.  Count the words and divide by the number of complete
thoughts.  Compound sentences count as 2 thoughts.

3.  This gives the average sentence length.

4.  Count the number of words with 3 or more syllables.  These
are considered to be "hard words."  Do not count proper names,
compound words like 'salesperson,' or verbs made into 3 syllables
by suffixing ing, es, ed, and so on, like 'tresspasses.'

5.  Divide the total number of "hard words" from #4 above by the
total number of words and then multiply by 100.

6.  This gives the percentage of hard words.

7.  Add #6 and #3 (average sentence length + percentage of hard
words) and multiply by 0.4.

8.  This is the fog index in years of education required to read
passage.


For best results for a lengthy article, take a random sample from
3 or 4 paragraphs through the text and average the fog indexes
for the whole article (the above calculation should only be done
with about 100 words).

Of course, if you have style programs like RightWriter, you can
get a Gunning fog index instantly.  This short message, for
example, has a fog index of 9.


                     <<** SUMMARY **>>

    The document FOG.IND was analyzed using the rules for
    Technical report or Article writing at the High School
    education level.  It is a WordPerfect document.  The
    marked-up copy is stored in the file FOG.OUT.

READABILITY INDEX:  6.30

    4th        6th       8th       10th      12th      14th
      |****|****|*   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
    SIMPLE      | ------ GOOD ----- |               COMPLEX
    Readers need a 6th grade level of education.

    The Flesch Index for this document is :  74.831

    The Fog Index for this document is :   9.059

        Number of Words in Document: 288
        Number of Unique Words in Document: 150
        Average Number of Words/Sentence: 14.000


STRENGTH INDEX:  0.67

    0.0                      0.5                      1.0
      |****|****|****|****|****|****|*** |    |    |    |
    WEAK                                           STRONG
    The strength of delivery is good, but can be improved.


DESCRIPTIVE INDEX:  0.37

    0.1                 0.5                 0.9       1.1
      |****|****|**  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
    TERSE  | ------------ NORMAL ------------ |     WORDY
    The use of adjectives and adverbs is normal.


JARGON INDEX:  0.00

SENTENCE STRUCTURE RECOMMENDATIONS:
     1. Most sentences contain multiple clauses.
        Try to use more simple sentences.

                    << WORDS TO REVIEW >>
Review this list for words that may confuse your message.
These include words that are negative, frequently misused,
colloquial, or jargon.  As you review each word, think of
its effect on the reader.
1    readability    (Possible jargon)
              << END OF WORDS TO REVIEW LIST >>
                   <<** END OF SUMMARY **>>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 02:51:32 -0400
From: "Donald J. Degracia" <don@dondeg.mi48030.sai.com>
Subject: THEO.EXE problems

This is mainly adressed to Mike, but is of general interest.

Mike:
The Theosophy help file (THEOHELP.HLP) was compiled
at a resolution of 648x480. It is designed, and says so
in the READ.ME file, to be run at this resolution.
If you want to run it at other resolutions, then your
taking a chance with no guarantees.

Also, it was compliled to be run in Windows, but NOT Windows NT.
Things don't simply port form Windows to Windows NT. NT is an operating
system, regular old Windows is not. Therefore, its no surprise that
you couldn't run THEOHELP.HLP on Windows NT.

At any rate, try running the file at 640x480, in WIndows (NOT NT)
that should get rid of your problems.

Best,
Don
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 17:13:02 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: (none)

Hi --
in reference to the Theo Help file which Mike commented on.
The problem with the "Essays on Disks Presents" line is
actually a misinterpretation of the picture??
I think that if you are complaining about the overlapping
"k" on Disks with the "p" in Presents,  this is the way I have always
seen it displayed.  In other words,  it does it on all of my copies
and I have assumed that Don intentionally did this as an Artistic
measure!  :-)

I Thoght Don *meant* it to look like that!

Perhaps *I'm* mistaken. if so -- then I have bad copies of the Help
file too!

Peace --

John E. Mead
"Helms happens - but is it Art"
is one of my favorite NC bumper stickers.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:05:26 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: psychism and the real split

I think that Jerry H-E made some very significant points regarding our
discussion on the nature of Theosophy as it is found in the theosophical
movement, and would like to comment on them.

The original Theosophy was purely spiritual/intellectual, and was
opposed to both organized religions, materialistic science, as well as
spiritualism and psychic development.

I can see "syncretism" in varying degrees as the core theosophical
ideas were taken up by individuals and blended with other beliefs and
made into something different. There is probably a voodoo theosophy,
a catholic theosophy, a scientific-materialistic theosophy, and many
other flavors. Original Theosophy is more likely to make one a
philosopher/saint than a priest, magician, or scientist, although it
doesn't preclude these other vocations.

Except for someone with a almost-saintly personality, psychic
development was not just discouraged, but forbidden. The natural
consequence of psychic development would be the awakening of kundalini,
and the person could face maddness or death. And lessor psychic
development would be a hinderance to spiritual development. This was
why, for even people born with natural psychic capabilities, that one
was told to ignore, put aside, neglect, and forget about any psychic
development, including seeing auras, clarivoyance, astral projection,
etc. The senses were a distraction to spiritual development, and
were to be downplayed.

In meditation, we are taught to turn the attention away from the
senses, to focus on higher aspects of consciousness. Any attempt to
see at a distance, to push through to another plane, to focus on
external forces to bring them into play in the outer world, would
constitute sitting for psychic development, at best. It could also
constitute the practice of magic, and have dangerous karmic
consequences. Until the personality approaches sainthood in purity,
one is likely to be brought in touch with the dark side of life, things
we are normally protected from, something not good to even talk about
too much ...

----

The other important point of Jerry's is regarding the real first split
in the original Theosophical Society: between HPB and the T.S. as a
Mystery School and Olcott and the T.S. as a public free-thought
organization.

This split was undone (along with other, unfortunate events as well
that I won't go into) in the Pasadena T.S. during the Conger and Long
administrations, when they started with a T.S. with a regular membership
with lodges and an E.S., then proceeded to shut down and liquidate the
assets of all the lodges, and finally do away with the E.S./T.S.
distinction (everyone who remained a member in the dramatically smaller
organization was an E.S. member with loyalty to Long as their spiritual
teacher). This was turned around again in Knoche's administration, where
a few lodges, now called Library Centers, were reopened, and public
work was again started.

There could be a dual purpose to the T.S., there certainly is one to
the theosophical movement. First is to keep the door to the Mysteries
ajar, allowing a possible entry for individuals when they reach the
appropriate stage of readiness. The second is to help formulate
"Theosophy Lite" as the seed for a new religion for the next
2,160-year subrace in the West.

Much of the deeper teachings will be dropped out as the popularization
continues. And perhaps the Mystery School aspect to things will go
completely underground. I'm not sure that we will readily recognize
the face of "Theosophy Lite" a century from now. By then, it will have
done a much better job of blending into popular thought and language.
And perhaps it is the role of the Adyar T.S. to drive this effort?

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 12:33:22 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com> ((Brenda Tucker))
Subject: Jesus and

This is a very special time for me because I feel that this is an
especially rare opportunity to get to know people whom I may or may not
be in future contact with.  When you don't have physical contact, it is
possible to miss certain idiosyncracies and facets of people's
characters.

Jerry and April (his PhD wife) always seemed like the "busy professor"
when I knew them at the L.A.  lodge, and before that by brief contact
during a national convention/summer school, they seemed kind of like
liberals or freaks from L.A.  I never was able to really listen to
Jerry talk before because he was always busy with his lodge work and it
was really only about 6 or 8 times that we really attended lodge at the
same time before April landed her teaching position and they moved
away.  April and Jerry and the L.A.  lodge produced a video that is
available through LACTS for about $20, if anyone is interested.

Anyway, it's very special to be impressed by people and then to someday
be drawn closer to them by karma or whatever.  I never had much contact
with, even after months of membership, the working of Jerry H-E's mind.
I am mysteriously awed to find myself on equal footing with the group
just because we all began working together about the same time, but I,
for one, can really get a glimpse of somebody's inner self here and
this I only aspired to with Jerry before.

When I met Eldon he was looking for a wife and we somehow "fit" so the
circumstances developed so much more rapidly with him.  I remembered
his name only as an author of a few articles printed in the AT in 1975
or 1976 when I first joined.

Anyway, Jerry, this is a real privilege for me to try to conceptualize
as you do and for me not to be too radically shocked or disappointed by
our interactions.  You are easier than I thought to get along with.

My career goals were originally to attain a PhD in psychology and work
in the field of psychotherapy, but I met theosophy and had to follow
that path and lose the other.  It was probably a superficial career
goal anyway or just something to do with a friend.

I enjoy reading all of the comments here on the network about once a
week, so unfortunately it appears as if I'm only responding to a few of
the many good questions and statements without really covering as many
aspects of the work as I'd like to.

I'm convinced that John Mead may be a valuable source of light and love
and wish that "as lodge work goes" he would take the lead from time to
time and present material like that which he did on the Vedas' creation
story.

While some people are responding to what is written, other people can
be initiating topics and, by the way, we can control our thoughts to be
completely one (responding) or the other (initiating) just as an
exercise.  This is something I learned when Radha Burnier was speaking
at Olcott.  (This is a nickname for the national headquarters and a
shortened name for the library there.)

I'd also be very pleased to tell you my background with 1) experience
in full-moon meditation (Alice Bailey style), leading to 2) Zen
acquaintances, and 3) visits at the Farm of Stephen Gaskin in
Tennessee.  These experiences took place prior to my working at Olcott
and being in the E.S.  for about three years.  I am also a co-mason and
still continue with this.  After leaving Olcott I was close enough to
attend the "I Am Temple" in Chicago and be a student there for about
two years.  Then through almost a complete isolation from people other
than Muslims, I learned much that I greatly value about Islam, the
Koran, and the Middle East (tradition and racial inclinations).  During
this time I also became acquainted with a First Baptist church and was
quite happy there.

I wrote something on Peacenet over a year ago about the difficulty I
was having with all of the references to mythology that I was finding
in Quest especially, but also the emphasis placed on mythology in
general by people giving theosophical seminars and writing books
published by Quest.  By voicing this dilemma that was tearing at my
heart at a Durga Puja celebration of the local Vedanta Society, I
received a very welcome comment by their founder and teacher, Narayan.

First, though, because Jerry S.  set the scene so beautifully for the
retelling of this experience, I should comment a bit more on the
Islamic tradition.  The Koran contains many Christian teachings.
Mohammed loved Jesus and Mary and both are frequently written about in
the Koran.  St.  Germain loved Jesus, too, and included him on an equal
basis in the founding of the I Am Temple in the 1940s.  While many
people view St.  Germain's work as predominant, in reference to the St.
Germain Foundation, for instance, Jesus is very much alive and a
participant in both the life and work of Mohammed, who faced religious
persecution because of his fantastic claims to receiving The Koran from
God and the Angel Gabriel, and in the life and work of St.  Germain,
who had many past lives which are written about today, including one as
St.  Alban, a Roman soldier converted to Christianity by a monk whose
life he had spared and who upon profession his new found faith to his
former comrades, swiftly loses his head to a sword.

In any event, theosophy is nice, but it certainly didn't do the job I
needed in life.  How can we make it more open to other traditions?
Although there is some emphasis on Islam and Buddhism currently, there
is not as much as I would like.  The number of Muslims in the movement
are too few to expect to ever be able to meet and talk to one at T.S.
functions, let alone associate with one or more.  Usually, and it is
fascinating, you'll meet children of theosophists.  Wow, what a breed!

I need to check my reins here and return to the mythology dilemma.
Muslim friends especially like to teach the tenants of their faith as
religious people are apt to do, but it was so obvious a tenant that it
slapped me in the face.  Primarily, this tenant would benefit a needy
infidel by bringing him under the doctrine of one God.  This is of
primary importance! Teach that there is one God.  So here we have a
beautiful and powerful Islamic teaching that even in Christianity gets
lost.  The missionaries at my door wanted me to learn, "The wages of
sin is death." and Jesus died to save us from sin and therefore death.
(This is the basic teaching of the Resurrection or Ascension, a very
important I AM teaching, as well.)

Because of my Islamic leanings, I am sure, I was too overcome by
mythology.  Being back in the theosophical fold, I needed a new
emphasis.  Well, Narayan said just the right thing to settle all my
jitters.  He said the battle that is raging in you is only present at
the level of the mind.  Of course, if I would have kept up my
meditations regularly, this wouldn't have needed emphasis.

In meditation, go beyond the mind and experience unity, the Supreme.

Jerry S.  just about says the same thing by his dualism having a mental
aspect that can be transcended.

Brenda

P.S.  Durga Puja is a popular Hindu festival performed once a year in
celebration of the sneaky devil being caught hiding in a cow and tossed
in the sea.  The entire build up to the final capture is that the devil
outfoxes his pursuers several times until day's end.  This celebration
has rid the community of an unwanted presence.

P.S.S.  I missed commenting on Karma, but was wondering if you had ever
seen Gina Cerminara's book, MANY MANSIONS.  It is about Edgar Cayce's
remarkable method of healing and his past life readings involving
Karmic debts
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 10:48:34 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: you know what you've found ...

When reading Theosophy, it is easy to wonder why Theosophy isn't just
put in plain language. Why is the material scattered in bits and pieces?
Why are the same terms used with differing meanings? Why are things
presented such that as soon as you think that you've got an idea, the
next thing you read completely unsettles it and requires you to have to
go back and rethink it over again?

The same terms are used to describe different ideas in order to give
written expression to esoteric truths, making them available in print
yet hiding their real meanings behind other, more obivous, apparent
meanings.

The manner of expression, where grand ideas and talked around rather
than plainly stated, where apparent paradox is used in order to keep
the thinking process fluid, where a subject is returned to again and
again, with a little more revealed at each step--all this is the
tried-and-proven method of teaching the Esoteric Philosophy.

Truly grand ideas must be self-born within the student's mind, not
adopted from another. The right receptivity must be first created in
the learner's mind before the idea can be born. The focus must shift
from the brain-mind, kama-manas, to a higher form of knowing,
buddhi-manas, and this is not easy to do.

The nature of the lower mind is to crystalize, to formulate and
structure, and it requires a considerable effort to keep it fluidic,
to keep breaking apart the molds of mind as they form, to keep from
becoming locked into a simple formulation in words of grand thoughts.

Theosophical books do not come out and plainly state things. The study
of them is difficult, but that difficulty, that troubled feeling
endgendered in the mind of the reader, is the "growth pains" of the
lower mind. There is no way to "easily" tell the grand philosophy
because it is not simply contained in mere verbal descriptions, it is
not a simple set of words.

This is not to say that the Theosophy simply consists of a meditative
process and personal experience of the spiritual. It is a definite body
of knowledge and wisdom. But it is of a type that goes far beyond what
is knowable in the personality, and it is not readily communicatable
in this age (the fourth round).

"Philosophy" means the love of wisdom, and theosophists are true
philosophers. And there is a Wisdom that goes beyond what is knowable
in the personality, knowable in the everyday experiences that we have
in being who we are and interacting with the people around us in life.
Special means are required to bring us to acquire this Wisdom, and
they do not necessarily parallel the methods used in our modern,
western educational system.

Because this Wisdom cannot be simply written down, in whatever glyph
or words, it is preserved as a living tradition among the Mahatmans,
a knowledge that is learned and known and taught and passed down from
generation to generation (as they are reembodied). It is something
very definite and real, but of what most of it consists, we haven't a
clue. The hints that are given can allow us to approach it and
contemplate what has been released into the exoteric literature of the
world. But there is so much to it! There is an incredible goldmine of
learning to be found in the theosophical books, when the reader is
ready, and they are approached and used in the right manner.

Every idea that you read in the literature has level after level of
deeper meaning and understandings to it. Take the idea of the unity or
oneness of life, the universality of being, Atman. To say that all life
is one or that we share the same life that every other being has is as
true as far as it goes. But what is the correct understanding of what
happens when we step from the unmanifest planes through Atman into
manifest being? What is the correct understanding of the loss of the
sense of self in nirvana? What is the higher sense of self and
universality in the unmanifest planes? How does the composite nature of
man (consisting of many Monads) relate to the sense of self or
selflessness? There are many deeper understandings that take one far
beyond any single, simple, word-idea like "the oneness of life".

If the material seems dry, uninspired, arbirtrary, lifeless, a jumble
of strange terms and phrases, it shows that the reader is not in
touch with the thought current behind the words, the reader is not
perhaps ready for what is there, and this can come and go in phases in
one's life. I went through about a 14-year period of not being
receptive to a deep study of the philosophy from about 1975 to 1989.
During this time I worked on volunteer projects from time to time, but
did not really break open the books and dive in!

I think that one is protected from seeing anything in the theosophical
writings, from sensing their true value and worth, until and unless one
has a phase of life where a certain type of spiritual training is
appropriate. One remains blind in life to experiences that are not
appropriate, and this includes the experience of diving into the
Wisdom Tradition and awakening the light of higher mind, buddhi-manas.

There is no need to sell people on the value of Theosophy for those
who have reached the necessary state of readiness. You know what you
see and you want it and you treasure it. And it is fine that other
people read and study what they like, because what you get does not
need the agreement of others, it does not depend upon the authority of
public opinion. You know what you've found and it's simply wonderful!

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 11:54:38 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: Theo help file/windows...

>Hi --
>in reference to the Theo Help file which Mike commented on.
>The problem with the "Essays on Disks Presents" line is
>actually a misinterpretation of the picture??
>I think that if you are complaining about the overlapping
>"k" on Disks with the "p" in Presents,  this is the way I have always
>seen it displayed.  In other words,  it does it on all of my copies
>and I have assumed that Don intentionally did this as an Artistic
>measure!  :-)

In my case, the "p" in presents lines up with the "i" on Disks. Don
can confirm this but my guess is that the word "presents" is right
justified in the rtf file and the Essays on Disks is left justified.
Depending on the font rendering (and I use the large fonts driver),
the font widths will be different. Setting the whole phase to one
justification should solve the problem.

Don, your comment concerning the resolution should only refer to the
rendering of the bitmaps. I'm not having any problem with them.

Also, Windows NT has no problem with other Windows help files. I have no
problem with those created with either Borland's or Microsoft's Help
compiler. I wish NT would tell me which routines were missing :-)

Don, this is your work of art and I don't want to intrude on it but if
you want, I'd be happy to track the problem down here if I can have
access to your rtf and bmp files.

-----------
Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
mike@grenier.hawkmoon.mn.org (home)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 13:32:12 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: you know what you've found ...

Eldon writes:
> There is no way to "easily" tell the grand philosophy
> because it is not simply contained in mere verbal descriptions, it is
> not a simple set of words.

I agree, but there are now easier and perhaps more fruitful ways of
presenting at least some of the basic Theosophical teachings. Don's
help file is a good example - help files can be used to widely
distribute teachings with little cost (except for Don't time :-)
while providing graphics and sound support. Don't get me wrong - it
can also be harder to sit in front of a computer and still be able to
reach a state of mind where one can be receptive to these teachings
but it may serve as an introduction..

>There is no need to sell people on the value of Theosophy for those
>who have reached the necessary state of readiness.

That's true but until I found my first Theosophical book, all I knew
was that I was missing something. It is our duty to make sure that the
resources are available to those who seek.

On another note, there are some common symbols used for internet mail
to help express the emotions behind a written phrase. For instance, when
one wants to express humor, one can use a smiley face like this :-)
(Turn you head sidewise to see it) There are many other faces such as
the sad face :-( or someone with a mustache :-{) or someone who is
talking :-o

Have a good day.
-----------
Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
mike@grenier.hawkmoon.mn.org (home)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 10:12:19 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: forms of Truth

One virtue that is not given due respect, even in theosophical circles,
is truthfullness, the giving personal expression to the ideal of Truth.
Television and popular literature show numberless examples of people
living their lives without regard for Truth, and few examples of people
with a genuine love of Truth.

Lies and deception are resorted to in a routine manner. We are taught
to evade, to mislead, to deceive, as a defense against the probing
questions of other people. This is wrong, but it is done all the time.

Although there are many areas of live where civilized behavior
prevails, it is missing in the area of personal communication. The
right to keep silent, to not answer a question, to only say what one
chooses, is totally ignored.

If someone asks you a question and you say you don't want to answer it,
you can expect to be badgered with questions seeking clues until the
other person has his answer, or worse, you might expect the other person
to bully you, demanding that you answer his question, that you tell him
what you know.

It is not right to resort to deception in order to avoid the probing
questions of another. The right to silence should be stood up for. You
should clearly make a statement that the other person's demand is wrong.
You have said that you won't talk about something and should stand by
it.

We all know about and recognize a *blatent lie* as wrong. Words that are
so clearly untrue as to be beyond all possible misunderstanding are
always objectionable! "The moon is green," "I have six fingers," or
"spoiled milk is good to drink" are all examples where there is no
question about the untruth of the statement.

The second degree of untruthfullness, though, is practiced in a almost
routine fashion. Except in legal matters, where it is called fraud, it
is generally denied, in peoples' minds as they practice it, as being a
form of lying. I would call it *plausible deniability*, where one makes
a deliberate choice of words to mislead the other person, but at the
same time so carefully chooses the words that there is plausible
interpretation that could be made of the words that one really said
the truth but was only misunderstood!

This is lying, the motivation and intent was clearly to communicate
an untruth, but a cowardly form of lying, since one is at the same time
picking words that allow one at a later date, if confronted about the
lie, to deny it, to lie about having lied.

Plausible deniability is in accord with a prevalent attitude that if
you can get away with something, that you didn't really do it, because
it cannot be *proved*, so you really didn't do anything wrong. This is
wrong, because regardless of the external proof of an action, you have
changed yourself and the world for the worse, and bear the karmic
consequences.

The third degree of untruthfullness is more subtle, and harder to
describe. It might be called *false consent*, where you mislead by your
silence. You know that the other person has a wrong idea as you hear him
talk. You do not say anything. By your silence, you appear to agree.
The other is mislead into thinking that you agree with what he said.
You *know* the other is wrong, but *choose* to let the other think that
you agree when you do not.

Considering how many ways we can be untruthful, how do we live our
lives in a functional manner and reamin faithful to Truth? Certainly
not by telling blatent lies. We should avoid the other forms of deceit
as well. What is needed is that we remain plainly truthful, open and
simple in what we say, not ever seeking to mislead, but always saying
what we believe or keeping our mouths shut! We must boldly stand up for
our right to remain silent and not answer questions when it is not
right to do so, and not take the easy way out and choose to trick or
mislead other people. Picture how a totally pure-at-heart Saint would
behave, someone with the innocence of pure spirituality combined with
a brilliant mind. Then be that way.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 18:31:47 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Schools of Magic?

Eldon,  your description of "original Theosophy" is
very good.  Actually, it is the way Pasadena still is
today.  Even though Blavatsky had psychic abilities,
she discouraged its development in her students, probably
because it continually got her into trouble.  The fear
of magic and psychism is still strong in today's TSs.
I have already written about the dangers, and yes,
maddness or death are possibilities.  However, the
probabilities of serious problems are small simply
because most dabblers don't get into it far enough to
be in any real danger.  Only a few are serious enough
to keep at it, and it is those who are in danger.  But
then again, to "dare" has always been a trademark of
the Adept.  I use the concept of karma to keep me in
line, but I pracatice a form of yogic magic more than
any ritual magic as such.  But I correspond with several
serious magicians, who keep me up to date on their
development.  My own opinion is that there is a real
danger to the unwary, and I agree that ethical and
spiritual development should be encouraged as well, but
I still would prefer to let each individual decide for
themselves rather than having it "forbidden" as you said.

I am rather between Don, who thinks its safe enough for
anyone to try (as do my publishers from Llewellyn) and the
TSs who would avoid it altogether.  I think that it is safe,
provided you know what you are doing.

In theory I agree with your "dual purpose to the T.S." but
I have to ask, Are our current TSs ready and able to provide
"the door to the Mysteries?"  I am not so sure.  The reason
that I say this is that only an Adept or near-Adept can
open such a door for a student, and since the TSs discourage
practice leading to Adepthood, how can members qualify to
open the Mysteries to anyone?  To be honest, the Pasadena
TS comes across to me as rather spiritual, and Long did, in
fact, help me a lot.  Grace has also given me more than a
few good kicks in the spiritual direction, but can this
kind of leadership continue?  Can the TSs continue to
discourage 'practice' and still provide Adept-like
leadership?  I hope so, but I have reservations.  The
problem is, Blavatsky herself told us not to make the TS
into a "Hall of Magic" and discouraged any kind of psychic
practice.  So, the TSs today can help develop spiritual
and moral character, which to be sure is a good and positive
thing.  But they cannot and will not help develop psychic
ability/control, and so their leadership tends to be one-
sided.  How many Adepts have you read about that did not
have some amount of psychic development?  Jesus, if not
the Son of God, was at least a fine magician and probably
would be excommunicated from today's TSs (as would HPB
herself).

                       Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:43:55 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: spiritual is higher

Psychic powers are acquired by the personality. They represent
extensions to the experiences of material existence. The senses are
enhanced on this or is some cases another plane. On any plane where you
have fully manifested your consciousness, you are a fully-embodied
seven principle being. I would associate the senses, the sensory input
with the Linga Sharira, fairly low on the scale of consciousness.

Being able to see physical things at a distance, being able to look into
the astral light at the formative energies behind material objects,
being able to perhaps get some confused sensory input from yet another
globe or plane--all these are experiences that we first acuqired while
in the mineral kingdom. Our seat of conscious if far higher, centered
in kama-manas and our goal is to raise it to buddhi-manas.

Extensions of the senses do not make one wiser. A dog is not wiser than
a man just because the dog has an acute sense of smell. If the dog
could see into the astral light, it would still not have manas, and
having more to preoccupy it, might be distracted from its evolutionary
goal in life, the acquisition of the capability of thought.

If you could run faster, lift heavier weights, hear better, see
sharper, smell as more acutely, would you be better off? I would say
no. I would say that it is not appropriate to awaken senses on other
planes unless you have the qualities of consciousness appropriate to
those planes. When those qualities have been developed, an appropriate
vehicle of consciousness will have been developed for that globe and
you will just naturally find yourself reborn there.

Faculties of the personality, including the senses, both ordinary and
psychic (ahead of one's time), are appropriate to the personality you
have here on globe D, our earth. Enhancing this personality does not
develop the personalities appropriate to the other globes, and only
strengthens the ties to physical existence here, the karmic bonds or
nidanas that hold you back rather than hasten your evolution. What good
it is to be able to walk on water or see what's going on at this
moment thousands of miles away? The personal desire for powers can be
corrupting and is a hinderance to overcome.

Say you could bridge the gap to another plane and see what is happening
there. It would not be understandable. You would be looking at it
through the personality evolved for the manifestation of consciousness
on this globe, which is simply not equipped to interpret and deal with
experiences there. (When I say another plane, I mean another *real*,
substantive world, another sphere of causes, and not just the looking
into the astral light surrounding our globe D earth, a passive sphere
of effects in which our dreams and "astral projections" occur.)

I do not think that the idea of the "psychic scientist" is a good one.
Anything that give more power to the personality, that centers one's
consciousness in the activity of the personal ego, is to be avoided.
Human knowledge will not be advanced by the cultivation of psychic
capabilities. Common knowledge of how to cultivate paranormal powers
would lead to widespread sorcery and a hastening of the end of our
modern civilization.

The senses we have are what is appropriate for our current evolution.
What we have at our disposal to live a life in the human kingdom
through our personal existences is *not* a chance occurrence, and
altering the situation does not advance humanity. The evolution is
overseen by our parents, the Dhyani-Chohans, and programmed the way it
is based upon what is appropriate at this time.

To hasten our spiritual evolution, to advance beyond the current
state of things, is not related to any particular alteration of the
personality, because it is born into a regulated existence, an
existence whose parameters are controlled and laid out according to the
general plan of human evolution. Any accelerated advancement comes
by stepping aside and cultivating with the faculties of consciousness
appropriate to future periods of existence, consciousness that cannot
be directly given expression in and through the personality. It is
something different that merely upgrading, enhancing, extending the
powers of personality.

Our ultimate goal is to develop the buddhi-manasic consciousness,
something that is not an extension or extrapolation of any other
principle of consciousness that we currently have. It is something
that is different, yet functions at the same time, as other aspects
of consciousness, and it is hard to even get the true flavor of what
it's all about! The Great Initiations all represent stages of being
infilled with it, coming from one's Inner God. There are a number of
mysteries to it that are only hinted at in our theosophical books!
Life has all sorts of wonders awaiting us!

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:30:51 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: my comments

My comments earlier this morning were just some more thoughts on the
nature of psychic powers. I did not go into magic, which would be
enhancing the kama-pranic powers of the personality.

I still want to comment more particularly regarding Jerry S.'s
email on the role of T.S.'s, perhaps later this morning.

Although I don't want to establish an *absolute* rule against ever
cultivating psychic capabilities, I do feel that their unsupervised
development, without the guidence of a Master or skilled Chela, and
without a specific purpose to do good in the world for their use,
is far more dangerous than a teenager's unsupervised experimentation
with drugs. The danger is not in simply being distracted from one's
spiritual evolution, but rather the putting oneself open to influences
of a negative kind.

There is a "guardian wall" of the senses that protects us from harmful
outside influences, some for spiritual evil, and a grave warning should
be made to would-be experimenters. The type of injury possible far
exceeds maddness or death in a particular lifetime. The danger is the
risk of having karmic seeds sown of a very negative kind, seeds with
the potential to put one's feet on the downward, left-hand path.
Absolute purity of intent, pure motivation, and a spotless personality
are really necessary, and there are very few so purified.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 13:27:16 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: manner of writing

I would like to ask the group to excuse me if I often seem to not
engage others in dialogue. I am thinking about what everyone says, but
also want to practice writing on Theosophy too. I'll often not take a
point-by-point discussion of other messages, but rather pick out key
ideas from what was mentioned and write a short piece about them. This
does not mean that I don't give due respect to the comments that I
read, just that I find more value in writing this way.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 09:28:00 -0400
From: 91484615@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RE: manner of writing

Eldon,

I have been enjoying your discourse, and wanted to comment and ask
some questions. About truth, the first two varities of untruth seem
clearly wrong, but the third; do you suggest that we as theosophists
attempt to engage everyone with mistaken ideas?  Many people will
fight to defend their beliefs without any concern for their validitity.
The principle of ahhimsa has been said to superceed that of truth
(Hindu tradition) in this context the practice of truth is to follow
the principle of harmlessness, if a truth will harm another it is
kinder that we do not show it to them. I beleive that Krishnamurti
professed the same idea.

On magic; I agree there are risks, but I find the requirement of a
perfect personality to exclude the use of magic by meer humans. I
beleive that magic is a tool that can be used to further a persons
efforts at service. This type of use is not without risks, but neither
is life. To use magic for personal gain, or to harm others is to
invite disaster, I agree with your warnings in this regard.

Thank you for the thought provoking messages.

Jay Amundson
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 09:40:11 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: the initiations

An Initiate is someone who has placed his feet firmly on a new path,
who has started something new in life. He is like a newly-born baby,
entirely new and undeveloped in the new aspect of life.

It is important to keep a clear distinction between Initiate and
Adept. Someone "adept" at a skill is highly-proficient, with
considerable experience. And someone fully-proficient would be a
"master" of the skill.

It is possible, with the right state of readiness, to undertake the
first few Initiations. But having done so, one is thereafter exposed
to a new aspect of life, but the long road of development has only
just begun. There's a *considerable* time from being initiated until
mastery of the higher consciousness.

To be an Initiate means to have opened within yourself the activity
of certain types of consciousness not available in the normal course
of life. Whether this exposure is good or bad, whether it stimulates
you to renewed effort at spiritual progress or proves a distraction
from your personal path, is entirely up to you.

An Initiation is not (speaking of the first three) vastly high, far
removed from life, nor a sign that one is more advanced that the next
person. It is an exposure, an introduction to certain areas of life
that most people are unaware. It is not a graduation, and does not
signify that one has completed something; it is an admission into a
type of higher learning, a *start* of some long course of learning.

The first three Initiations relate solely to the personality. Starting
with the fourth, the personality is transcended and at one of the
sacred seasons one is indrawn into the upper triad and has trans-
personal experiences.

The Initiations are a rite of passage for the personality, and are
experienced at an appropriate state of life when one is readied for
an "opening". They, I would say, are repeated with each physical
incarnation that one will be working on developing the higher
consciousness that corresponds to them.

The first Initiation is the introduction to the exoteric body of
knowledge of the Esoteric Philosophy, the start of the brain-mind study
of the Mysteries. It would correspond to your finding that first book
on Theosophy that really started your serious study, when you first saw
the treasures therein.

The second Initiation is the introduction to the esoteric body of
knowledge, the start of the direct knowing, of the tapping into the
tought currents of the Philosophy, of an inner source of direct
teaching that is true to, stimulated by, but independent of external
learning.

The third Initiation is the introduction to the compassion/teaching
side of knowledge, where you become a *source* for teaching the
wisdom, rather than a *receiver* of it, where you start to open your
mouth and valuable things start coming out.

All these three relate to degrees of exposure of the personality to
the Mysteries. They were introduced and there were rites regarding
them in ancient days. They represent the *start* of the respective
kinds of knowing, not the *completion* of such knowing, and are not
a sign of achievement, just a sign of readiness and ability to
participate in the work of the Hierarchy of Compassion.

The theosophical societies could play a role in assisting with
individuals having these three openings of consciousness, and thus
be a genuine Mystery School, regardless of the presence of a Teacher
to direct the subsequent growth and learning in these three fields
of activity.

Regarding the upper four Initiations, number four through seven,
they relate to openings of fields of acitivity that *cannot* be
directly known in the personality, and relate to how one can
eventually become a Fifth Rounder or Mahatman.

Now bearing the distinction between Initiate and Adept in mind,
and considering the aspect of the Lessor Mysteries as schools of
initiation, I would say that it is ok to consider the activity of
the Theosophical Societies as one such school.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1993 11:26:18 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: some comments

Jay:

I'm not trying to suggest that we correct the mistaken ideas of
others. My third type of untruth is to mislead by your silence, where
in discussion our silence is interpreted as concent or agreement.
We can say "I disagree" or "I don't want to talk about that", but
at times by simply saying nothing we are appearing to say "I agree"
when we don't.

Harmlessness comes from a recognition of the sameness of the one life
with the other, the awareness of the connectedness with him. But
some religions like the Jain take it too far. Everything that you do
in life is at the expense of something, and life is full of continual
adjustements between everyone and everything trying to manifest
themselves as best as they can.

Kindness also comes out of a recognization of the unity with the
other person. But it is not sentimental nor does it mean always doing
what is pleasant to the personal ego, the personal sense of selfhood
of the other person. Kindness is based in Wisdom, and may sometimes
*seem* unkind. Sometimes you may play the role of friend, other
times of enemy, and your duty in life determines the type of
exchange. If I remember it rightly, in The Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna
wanted to be a lot nicer than his duty demanded, and it took Krishna
to goad him on... Common sense and Wisdom are needed to see how
to handle life.

I would consider magic as different, but related to psychic powers.
Magic relates to kama-prana, the energized desire that leads to
things happening in the world. Magic is an extension of this
capability beyond the parameters set for our personalities in this
subrace. Psychic powers are primarily sensory extensions, the
enhanced sense input beyond the normal senses provided us. Both are
highly dangerous... Besides the opening up to outside influences that
we are generally protected from, they tend to strengthen the sense
of personal self, which is contrary to our spiritual evolution.

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 18:52:16 -0400
From: Nancy Coker
Subject: (no subject - bounced message)

Hello. I have been following some of your conversations and wanted
to join in. I am new to the Net but not to Theosophy.

Hello Jerry S.  I enjoyed your Fogg comments quite a bit as I was
taught a similar system in MD some years ago when I was doing tutoring
in literacy. It was difficult to find "age-appropriate" material that
was also reading'level'appropriate and we were encouraged to discover
new material for our students by using a similar method.

I would like to know more about what you call yogic-magic.

Hello Eldon -- I really apreciated your comments on truthtelling. I
always feel I am trying to discover truth on many levels at once, and
never certain which truth people want to hear. This is not a naive
statement. Sometimes when I am really reaching to describe something as
honestly as I can, I get the sense that the other person doesn't care
nearly as much about it as I do. They just want the "gist" not the
truth.

Re:  psychic practices. I agree with what you say. My questions
concerns the idea that we cannot skip any steps. Many people would like
to skip kama and live in manas. Many who are more comfortable with the
devotional and kamic, are happy to ignore the manasic. How do we know
that some psychic stuff is not absolutely necessary?  Also, how do we
help those who are naturally psychic?  When I hear theosophists giving
textbook type reasons why they should try to turn off their
sensitivities, it sounds "unauthentic" and preachy. I don't want to
sound that way. What to do?

Glad to be on board.

Nancy Coker
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 16:00:46 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: hastened evolution

Nancy:

I should say that I'm not trying to get on a crusade to change anyone's
views on psychic things. You can't really tell someone what to do,
expecially with something as fascinating as psychic phenomena. Some
people like A.P. Sinnett, though, became so interested in phenomena
that their theosophical studies and perhaps spiritual practices were
neglected. There's something that might be called "astral intoxication"
which could be psychologically addicting ...

For someone naturally psychic, it is part of their personal karma, and
part of the makeup of their current personality. It is not a sign of
spiritual development. There will be an occasional person born with
characteristics of an upcoming subrace, but this is not related to the
"dual track of evolution" which is called the Path.

As one shifts one's awareness to the Individuality within, above and
beyond the personality, the tendence would be to naturally lose
interest in experiences of the senses--be they physical or psychical
senses--as the attention becomes seated in something deeper within.

It is not necessary to tell naturally psychic people that it is bad or
hinders their spiritual development. The hinderance is not really
there, in the sense that it is their personal karma to work off in the
persent lifetime. The only time that it becomes important to downplay
the psychic is when one is undergoing a special process of development,
of directed spiritual training. When one has engaged this training,
even if not directed to do so, I would say that one would just
naturally lose interest in the paranormal, and dwell on the process of
self-directed evolution.

I do not personally think that psychic development is a necessary
intermediate stage of development between the start of things and
chelaship. It does not provide a bridge between ordinary awareness
and the spiritual/divine nature of man. It provides access to the
globe D personality to senses of coming subraces, but is unrelated
to the hastened spiritual development possible by stepping beyond
the grand sweep of evolution of the human lifewave. The hastened
evolution is not through enhancements of the personality, although
it is refined and enobled through the effort. The hastened evolution
comes about by a shift of consciouss and experience away from the
personality.

----

You are right that people would be turned off where they are talked to
in a manner that sounds like preaching from textbooks. Textbooks
attempt to give dead-letter expressions to truths that, in the case of
Theosophy, cannot be contained in the words used ... The Teachings
contain fragements of knowledge and wisdom of the Masters, and we
can certainly benefit from their experience. It is not helpful to talk
of the requirements of spiritual training with people far removed from
an interest in or readiness to participate. What we talk about needs to
be adjusted to take into account the person we are communcating with.

In the case of this discussion group, "theos-l", though, I'm assuming
a general understanding of Theosophy, and feel that I can write more
freely here than in most places. And I hope that we all feel free to
contribute! We can benefit as much from writing here as reading what
is written. And we are not limited to a single thread of thought, to
a single person "talking" at a time, like in a in-person discussion
group.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 16:43:51 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: hastened evolution

Eldon writes:

>I do not personally think that psychic development is a necessary
>intermediate stage of development between the start of things and
>chelaship. It does not provide a bridge between ordinary awareness
>and the spiritual/divine nature of man. It provides access to the
>globe D personality to senses of coming subraces, but is unrelated
>to the hastened spiritual development possible by stepping beyond
>the grand sweep of evolution of the human lifewave.
>

Is such a view selfish? In this world, there is so much suffering yet
the increased sensitivity provided by psychic development can
be used to provide some relief. The ability to sympathetically feel or
see another's astral and mental auras can be a great aid in helping
to understand how others feel and think. This, in turn, can help one
provide better solutions to their problems.

I'm not suggesting that we should rush out and develop psychic
abilities for the very reasons you described in previous letters, but
neither should we ignore the possible benefits of such abilitites.


-----------
Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 18:36:23 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: means of helping others

Mike:

Everything in life has both costs and benefits to it. The pros and cons
need to be weight by an individual. This is true of considering
the acquisition of psychic facilities or anything else that one may
undertake.

Buddhists would say that the cause of suffering is the failure to
realize the impermanence of life. The suffering comes from an
attachment to what one expects or wants to happen in life rather than
letting oneself follow the flow of life.

The realization of compassion grows from a sense of indifference to
others, to a understanding that hurting another will eventually come
back to hurt oneself, to a genuine sympathy and caring for the state
of the other, to a recognization of the *same life* in the other, to
a realization that the very fabric of one's life is composed of the
connectedness with everything else. (We are not, in the ultimate
analysis, separate but related beings; we are rather a conscious web
of connections with everything and everyone else.)

Extra information that can be gathered from seeing auras represents
additional input of the senses of indications of what is going on
in other people. You see someone physically smile. You see a certain
color in their aura. Both are sensory inputs. Both are different from
being directly attuned with the consciousness in the others.

For scientific investigation, we are able to extend the reach of
the physical senses to know much that we cannot see, hear, taste,
touch. The power of the mind, comtined with an existing body of
knowledge, combined with instruments that reveal certain facts, all
are used to extend our knowledge of the physical world.

We are likewise able to extend our knowledge of what is going on in
people using various external indicators. These are not a substitute
for *knowing* the people themselves, but help when we are otherwise
stuck ... Palmistry, the tarot, astrology, the colors we see in auras,
the toss of the I Ching, ... these are all external indicators that
provide clues to what is going on. They do not represent direct
knowledge. The direct knowledge comes from buddhi-manas, in its
function of direct knowing, in its function of knowing because one is
related to the other in one's being, the function of experiencing
oneself as the other person.

I'm not opposed to the discussion of psychic phenomena and how various
faculties are developed in this group. Appropriate warnings, though,
need to be given. As to the role they play in the lives of any of us,
it is an individual choice. As to their place in the big picture, we
can talk in more general terms about what we have learned from the
theosophical teachings without having to decide on individual cases
and the particular circumstances of any individual. There are always
exceptions to any general rule ...

I believe that we all agree on the need for helping out the world,
on manifesting compassion for the suffering of mankind. Our concern
is the same, even when we may differ on what are the best means of
helping others. The best means are those we have at hand, to use what
we have and we will be given increasing capibilities of helping others.
Whatever we use will grow in power and strength and become an
integral part of ourselves, so we benefit from our service. My
preference is for means that emphasize selflessness, the impersonal,
the highest faculties within, qualities that I both want to acquire
and want to share with others.

Regardless of the means chosen, anything done for the good of
humanity is appreciated since we are all working for the same goal.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 23:06:17 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: quote on What is Theosohpy

I just was opening up some books on Theosophy and came across the
following quote in "What is Theosophy?" (page 82.), one of the Point
Loma introductory manuals on theosophy:

  "Before concluding, it is desirable to repeat that Theosophy is
  not made up of bits of ancient religions and philosophies blended
  artfully with modern evolutionary ideas--a fabricated concoction.
  Theosohpy is the formulation of the wisdom of great Seers and Sages
  who penetrated ages ago behind the veil of Nature, spiritual,
  psychical, and physical. Partial revelations have been made from
  time to time and in various ways, but the full understanding has been
  always reserved for the few, as was demanded by the nature of the
  case.

    "The Secret Doctrine is the accumulated Wisdom of the Ages ... it is
    the uninterrupted record covering thousands of generations of Seers
    whose respective experiences were made to test and to verify the
    traditions passed orally by one early race to another, of the
    teachings of higher and exalted beings, who watched over the
    childhood of Humanity."
                           -- The Secret Doctrine

                                        Eldon Tucker
                                        eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 11:28:59 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: theosophical computer project needs help

There's a project where our computer training and experience
may prove helpful. Work is underway to computerize the
classic theosophical literature, including "The Secret Doctrine".
The original data entry will be in WordPerfect, and match
the exact text. Several adaptations of the material will then
be done.

1. ascii electronic texts will be made publically available
   for the free use of anyone interested,

2. WordPerfect texts will also be available, for the public, and

3. multimedia releases will eventually be built up around the
   basic materials.

After the verbatum text is computerized, a revised edition of
each will be prepared with standarized spellings and corrected
quotations, correctly transliterated Sanskrit, etc. This would
be the text used with future multimedia, hypertext, indexed,
releases of the material.

Vic Hao Chin Jr, the President of the T.S. Adyar National Section
in The Philippines, has someone working on finishing the
computerization of "The Secret Doctrine". The next meeting
to discuss future steps to be taken is tentatively set for
November in Pasadena, with interested theosophists of all
backgrounds participating (Pasadena T.S. Adyar T.S., ULT, and
independent theosophists).

The meeting will cover steps that next need to be taken, and
go over editing, proof-reading, transliteration, and other
standards. It will seek to coordinate the work that various
groups are doing so that there is not wasted effort.

The computer help most needed is not as much data entry or
proofreading, since Vic can employ someone in The Phillippines
to do computer work for perhaps $150/month, but rather in
investigating and evaluating software packages and approaches
to be used in the multimedia releases. Would Adobe Acrobat be
good? What about various hypertext programs? What programs are
on the most platforms (e.g. mac and pc etc.) What do the
programs cost? The software can require more computer resources
that the typical home PC of today, because when something is
ready in a few years, the typical home PC will have further
advanced.

Ideas, input, and people to prototype and try out various computer
approaches are what is needed in the coming year, while work
proceeds on the entry of the raw text into WordPerfect.

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 11:29:08 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: theosophical faq

Brenda posted the following yesterday morning. I did not get a
copy from "theos-l", so I'm reposting it for her:

                           Eldon Tucker

----

This is from Brenda Tucker.

Here's an old faq file on fractals I thought might be interesting.

What is fractint?
How does fractint achieve its speed?
Where can I obtain software packages to generate fractals?
Where can I obtain fractal papers?
Where can I get fractal T-shirts and posters?
How does anonymous ftp work?
What if I can't use ftp to access files?
Where is alt.fractals.pictures archieved?
I want to learn about fractals.  What should I read first?
What is the Mandelbrot set?
How is the Mandelbrot set actually computed?
Why do you start with z-0?
What are the bounds of the Mandelbrot set?  When does it diverge?
How can I speed up Mandelbrot set generation?
What is the area of the Mandelbrot set?
What can you say about the structure of the Mandelbrot set?
Is the Mandelbrot set connected?
What is the difference between the Mandelbrot set and a Julia set?
What is the connection between the Mandelbrot set and Julia sets?
How is a Julia set actually computed?
What are some Julia set facts?
How does complex arithmetic work?
How does quaternion arthmetic work?
What is the Iterated function system (IFS)?
What is the state of fractal compression?
How can you make a chaotic oscillator?
How are fractal mountains generated?
What are plasma clouds?
Where are the popular periodically-forced Lyapunov fractals
     described?
What are Lyapunov exponents?
How can Lyapunov exponents be calculated?
What is the logistic equation?
What is chaos?
What is nonlinearity?  What are nonlinear equations?
What is a fractal?  What are some examples of fractals?
What is fractal dimension?  How is it calculated?
What is topological dimension?
What is a strange attractor?
How can I join the BITNET fractal discussion?
How can 3-D fractals be generated?
What are some general references on fractals and chaos?

This file was in existence on Nov 16, 1992.  Now that I've seen a faq,
I thought I'd try my own.  Here is an example of an answer found from
the above file; most are fairly short answers.

Q8a What is the difference between the Mandelbrot set and a Julia set?
A8a The Mandelbrot set iterates z^2+c with z starting at 0 and varying
c.  The Julia set iterates z^2+c for fixed c and varying starting z
values.  That is, the Mandelbrot set is in parameter space (c-plane)
while the Julia set is in dynamical or variable space (z-plane).

What is theosophy?
How was the Theosophical Society founded?
Where do I write to become a member?
What is included in membership?
Where are the lodges and study centers?
Who can I write to if I have questions about theosophy?
What if I can't reorder my life to live the theosophical precepts?
Where are the International theosophical groups?
I want to begin reading about theosophy.  What should I read first?
What is Karma?
How are all of the Karmic records kept in order?
What should I do about my personality?
Can you describe life on the inner planes other than the astral
     plane?
Do I have to give up my life in the world to begin an inward
     journey?
If I reach a higher state of consciousness, is there a guarantee
     that I will reach it again?
What happens to the lower vehicles when the emphasis is shifted
     out of their life and into the life of the higher vehicles?
How will other people react to a keen interest in theosophy?
What is the difference between a theosophical life and a religious
     life?  scientific life?  philosophical life?
What is the connection between people of other races?
How is reincarnation determined?  May I choose now what I will
     do with my next life?
What are some famous reincarnation stories?
How does meditation work?
How does prayer work?
What is the hierarchy of adepts?
What is the goal of life?
How can you improve the world for the benefit of everyone?
How can I purify my atmosphere and that of others?
What is life like after death?
Where are the current theosophists working?
What are the benefits of attending theosophical events?
How can we reach an appreciation of unity?
What are the most intelligent men in the world living like?
What is creation?
What are cycles?  What is cyclic evolution?
What is the future of theosophy?  Are there some present examples
     of the future races?
What is available from the Headquarters of The Theosophical
     Society?  What are the costs?
What are the benefits of being vegetarian?
What other qualifications are there for approaching the work
     towards adeptship?
How can brotherhood be fostered among all people?
What are some of the general difficulties that theosophists
     are sure to face?


Q18 How will people react to a keen interest in theosophy?
A18 Some people will ridicule these thoughts as they do all religious
leanings.  In the interest of furthering the business consciousness,
they will wear a mask that pretends they are suited to their position
in the economical framework.  Secretly this same person will prefer
self-development and helping their fellowmen above all else in life,
but may feel there just isn't enough time in the day to accomplish much
in this regard, considering all of their worldly responsibilities.
Some people will find you interesting to listen to, but prefer not to
direct their own thinking and living in these directions.  They will
secretly think that you are not well-adjusted to the "real" life.  Some
people may prefer not to converse in this modality, but only to take
care of the details of everyday life with both their heart and mind
actively engaged in the best way they can.

Would anyone else like to try
--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 13:37:50 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: consciousness is not "bodies"

I think I've got it now, and it would be a bug in the listserver
code that is truncating my message. If you have a line of text
in the message that starts with "From", the remainder of the
message will be left off.

Here is my complete message this time, hopfully entirely sent out:

----

It is possible to want to be psychic, and to use psychic abilities as a
profession just as someone else wants to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer,
or social worker. It is a possible profession. Each occupation has its
own dangers.

In the Besant/Leadbeater theosophical worldview, psychic development is
divided into two types, the regular type and what Leadbeater would call
a higher clairvoyance. Leadbeater's higher clairvoyance would be
developed under the training and guidance of one of the Masters.

I don't agree with the distinction that there are two kinds of psychic
development, but would agree that psychic training would need to be
overseen by a Master or Chela, because of the dangers involved.

I found in my reading that Leadbeater seemed more interested in the
psychic than meditation, ethics, and a study of the philosophy. He
would have considered himself a psychic scientist. He was very proud
of his early book "The Astral Plane", reported to be the results of
psychic investigations. He called it a book unique in human
history, apported to and enshrined in Shambala.

During my years when Leadbeater was my favorite theosophical author,
I became vegetarian, and joined at age 17 the Adyar E.S. (with
special permission) where I stayed for about three years. I wanted
powers like his, to be an "invisible helper".

After reading all of his books, I found myself quickly running
out of things to think about. There was only so far that you can
ponder such things as a description of Leadbeater's stories of
his flying around at night in his astral body, etc. I almost
started reading Bailey's books, but feel fortunate that I met
Lina Psaltis and Ken Small and got introducted to Purucker's
works. I've found his writings to appeal to the mind in a
different sort of way that Leadbeater's, and still find them
both a challenge and adventure 22 years later.

I don't want to extrapolate my personal experience and make the
claim that someone else would necessarily follow the same
course in life, and find themselves changing to read Purucker.
I'm mentioning this to describe my background a bit.

[At this point the next word would have been "From"; I've
changed it to "In".]

In my background of having studied both Besant/Leadbeater
and then Purucker/Point Loma Theosophy at different periods of
my life, I would say that although many of the basic ideas are the
same, there are numerous differences in the philosophies, and part
of the disagreement over the use of psychic powers, their place in
the scheme of things, arises from these different worldviews.

One difference is regarding the nature of planes, bodies,
and principles of consciousness. The principles are not
"bodies" on other planes. They are integral elements of
consciousness. On any plane where one can manifest, one
has all seven principles with an appropriate body,
upadhi, or vehicle, but the body on any particular plane
is not a consciousness.

Being able to somehow function in another body on another
plane does not mean that one has awakened the consciousnes
of that plane. Getting sense input, seeing colors, smelling
things, touching physical forms appropriate to that plane,
one has still has no clue to what consciousness is about on
that plane.

To see with your "eyes" is not to "know", to know is an
activity of the mind and not sense perception. There are many
types of consciousness, some we have not yet developed, each
enhances and provides a new dimension to the experience of
manifested existence on some plane. Having a mind and
experiencing thought while in a physical body is not the
activity of a "physical body" on another plane, an "mental
body." The functioning of consciousness is a nonmaterial thing.

One can want to see or have and be awake in a physical form on
another plane. But this will not get one the consciousness
appropriate to that plane. It must be awakened first as an
awareness while here, alive in one's physical form on earth,
and then when the time is right the senses for the other plane
will open up of their own accord. (And this is at a very far off
time in the future ...) Hastening the opening of the senses for
another plane will not bring one to the corresponding consciousness
any faster. The rule, I would say, is first you *know*, first you
*realize*, first you *cognize*, then you *perceive*.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 14:00:00 -0400
From: Katinka Titchenell <ktitche@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Australasian TS Newsletter

Dear theos-l folk,

The following is the Australasian TS Newsletter courtesy of its
editor, Andrew Rooke (ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au).  It is a
publication of the TS (Pasadena) Australasian Section issue no.
43 September 1993.  We thought it would be of general interest to
the theos-l folk.

Back issues to the newsletter are available in hard copy to those
who want them by applying E-mail to Andrew Rooke at
ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au or snailmail to 664 Glenhuntly
Rd.,  South Caulfield, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 3162.  Tel.
(03) 528.1011.  Fax: (03) 528.3907.  There is no charge for this
Newsletter.  Contributions are most welcome from around the world
via E-mail or ordinary mail.  The newsletter will be available
from now on via e-mail.  If you would prefer not to receive it,
please let me know.
Kim Titchenell (ktitche@eis.calstate.edu)

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue Oct  5 23:31:07 1993
From: ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au
Subject: Australasian TS newsletter via Internet

The Daily Karmic Script : Part  4: Dharma                     2

News from home and Abroad including thoughts from South       3
   Africa on the Transformation of Violence in to Peace

Book News : Mandy Rooke                                       4

Contact : people from our Society around Australia            5

Poetry Corner : The Turning Point of Life by Cleland Rimmer   5

Gems of Theosophy - Compiled by Lo Guest                      6

Last Word : Two steps to a Higher Life                        7
------------------------------------------MEETINGS : MELBOURNE :
OCT. - DEC., 1993

Meetings are at the TS (Pasadena) Centre, 664 Glenhuntly Road,
South Caulfield, Melbourne at 2.30 :

Sat. Oct. 2nd : Report on the Second World Parliament of
Religions

Sat. Nov. 6th : Is the Universe alive?

Sat. Dec. 4th : The Inner meaning of Christmas.

Everyone is welcome and there is no charge.   Tea and coffee
served after the lecture.


THE  DAILY KARMIC SCRIPT:  Part 4:  DHARMA.

The Buddhist teachings on  "Dharma" give depth to our
understanding of the daily karmic script.  Dharma comes  from
the Sanskrit  word "dhri" meaning right religion, right
philosophy,   right  science and right union of these three and
hence  "The Law".  It also means equity, justice, conduct, duty
and the essential characteristics, quality, or peculiarity of
each individual in his road of learning.

These teachings encompass the idea that each one of us has
natural duties which are set or prescribed for us to complete in
each lifetime (see Dr. G. de Purucker's Occult Glossary pp37-38).
These duties relate to the conduct of every aspect of our lives
including livelihood, family responsibilities, attitudes and
relationships.  Our "dharma" is to meet these duties which our
own Higher Self has set for us in each life, with selflessness,
courage and fortitude conditioned by the results of choices we
have mad in past lives.

Thus, one person may persue the dharma of a doctor, another a
labourer or a housewife, all these, and any other occupation,
provide the opportunity for soul learning which is appropriate
for each individual.   Our obligation to ourselves and to other
is to meet the challenges of our particular dharma by fulfilling
the needs of each daily situation no matter how humble as best we
can without anxiety about the outcome of our actions.  In this
way we gradually build strength of character that enables us to
empathize and therefore help others along their road of learning.
Theosophical founders laid great emphasis on the fulfillment of
one's dharma in self development and in our contributions to the
progress of others.  William Quan Judge for example says:  "What
then is the panacea finally, the Royal talisman"  It is Duty,
Selflessness.  Duty persistently followed is the highest yoga and
is better than mantras or any posture, or any other thing.  If
your can do no more than duty, it will being you to the goal...
and again.. "He only who studies all things and learns from them,
as he finds them will be permitted to enter (behind the veil of
Nature's mysteries)...  It comes as softly and imperceptible as
the opening of a flower.   Live well you life, strive to realize
the meaning of every event.  Strive to find the Ever Living and
wait for more light."

The ability to read the daily karmic script arises from an
enlightened attitude to real life situations.  If we consciously
try to shift our focus of  concern from the lower to the higher
aspects of our life experience, then we slowly attune
ourselves to the natural state of Universal Harmony.  We thus add
our energies, be they ever so small, to the positive forces
protecting and guarding Humanity.  This effort requires courage
and fortitude because we need to face ourselves and be prepared
to act in defense of what we believe to be right rather than
leaving these ideas at the level of academic discussion.  Let's
finish this series with some advice from one of H.P. Blavatsky's
teachers on developing the ability to read the daily karmic
script and eventually perhaps to climb the "golden stairs" to
greater understanding and service to the Law:

    "Behold the truth before you, a clean life, an open mind, a
    pure heart, an eager intellect, an unveiled spiritual
    perception, a brotherliness for one's co-disciple, a
    readiness to give and receive advice and instruction, a loyal
    sense of duty to the Teacher, a willing obedience to the
    behest's of   TRUTH ,  once you have placed your confidence
    in, and believe that=20 Teacher to be in possession of it; a
    courageous endurance of personal injustice, a brave
    declaration of principles, a valiant defence of those
    unjustly attacked, and a constant eye to the ideal of human
    progression and the perfection which the secret science
    ("Gupta Vidya") depicts - these are the golden stairs up the
    steps of which the learner may climb to the Temple of Divine
    Wisdom."

NEWS

AN  INVITATION TO THE THEOSOPHICAL CONVENTION
The National President of the Theosophical Society in Australia
(Adyar),  Joy Mills, has kindly invited any members and friends
of our Society to attend their national convention which will be
held in Melbourne at St. Mary's College at the University of
Melbourne from 22 to 29 January, 1994.  The guest speaker will be
Dr. Ravi Ravindra.

NEW BROCHURE ON THEOSOPHY
A new and expanded introductory brochure on theosophy and the
work of the Theosophical Society is now available.  Copies can be
obtained by contacting  TS (Pasadena) Centre in Melbourne.

NEWS FROM AMERICA
The major item of news is the successful completion of the second
World Parliament of Religions in Chicago where members of our
Society gave several presentations and the Theosophical
University Press exhibited publications.  The Australian Section
of our Society was represented by Paddy Plasto, Canberra artist,
who exhibited several paintings (see Paddy's report on the
Parliament in this issue).

Headquarters - Pasadena:   Your editor was fortunate to visit HQ
in July to see the work proceeding at HQ and the Theosophical
University Library Centre at Altadena.  Friday night meetings are
regularly attended by 60- 80 people enthusiastically discussing
theosophic subjects.  A wide range of educational and publishing
activities are continuing in the library and Press.   Of
particular interest is the use of computers and high technology
in this ancient work.  Many thanks to Grace and the HQ team for
their hospitality and many kindnesses.

San Diego Library Centre:  An active programme of meetings
continues in San Diego with lectures on the following subjects in
the second half of the year:  The Perennial Dilemma,  The Astral
Light, Fate/Destiny,  At-Onement, and  The Four Sacred Seasons.
Australian Section members are always welcome at the library
centre situated at 4120 30th Street, Suite 204, San Diego
California.

NEWS FROM ENGLAND
Your editor was privileged to visit members and friends of the
British Section in London in July.  I was particularly impressed
by the dedication of members travelling from as far afield as
Liverpool to regularly attend meetings in London.  Active
programs of meetings and study groups are held in many parts of
the country with the main library centre being located in Exeter.
Thank you to Renee Hall, Pat Powell, Sandra Pitt and other
members and friends in England for a memorable visit.

NEWS FROM SWEDEN
Former Leader of our Society, Katherine Tingley, has been
honoured by the people of Visingso by having a ship named after
her in honour of her services to the people of the island.  This
surely must be a unique tribute to a theosophical leader in
Sweden or anywhere else for that matter!

NEWS FROM SOUTH AFRICA
Maud Osterwijk in the latest issue  Contact  contributes some
thoughts on the=20 TRANSFORMATION OF VIOLENCE INTO PEACE .  In
many places in the world, including South Africa, there are waves
of unrest taking place amidst a pattern of change.  The sparks of
violence produce fear, despair, grief, misery and often more
violence.  Is it possible to look beyond these harsh scenes and
to reach an inner tranquillity to be able to understand what is
really taking place and then how can we partake in a change
towards a transformation?  We talk about the Aquarian Age, an age
or cycle of greater awareness (re) appearing in mankind.  An age
where the spiritual in man may become more pronounced.  Is this
present world then the battlefield where the spiritual is trying
to come to birth?  In the ancient wisdom religion is spoken of
the presence of an all-pervading Diving Principle in nature and
also of the eternal and immortal in man as as spark or ray of
that Divine Universal Principle.  When we understand this we
should try to bring about this inner peace and then the
perception of what is truly happening will -- be it ever so
little -- contribute towards the improvement of the world's ills.
In an interview over the media recently with Credo Mutwa (author
of "Indaba my Children") he gave the following message to South
Africa and the whole world.  "Let us Forgive, Let us Forget, Let
us Build, Let us Love."

BOOK NEWS    from Mandy Rooke
New books in the library:  In memory of H.P. Blavatsky  by some
of her students.  Several writers who knew HPB, such as A.P.
Sinnett and G.R.S. Mead, give their views on what she meant to
them and how her career unfolded.

The Path:  an index of authors, articles, letters  etc., compiled
by Lo Guest  of our Melbourne Group.  William Quan Judge's  Path
magazine is indexed according to volume, month, year, page, date,
editor and name of article.  This computer produced index should
provide invaluable access to rare gems of theosophy for the
serious student of theosophy.  Unfortunately we have only one
copy of the index available from our Archives for use in the
library only.

An index to The Theosophist  also compiled by Lo Guest.  This
index covers the first years of this important journal under the
headings  of Total Index, Publicity, Activities, Authors, Rules,
and Letters.  Again we have only a manuscript copy available from
the Archives for use in the library only.

A work of  art  compiled by Paddy Plasto of Canberra available also
only in a limited edition published by the author.  Thoughts and
pictures from Paddy's young art students.  Word and form combine
to illustrate some outstanding expressions of the spiritual life
in art by budding child artists.  This book unveils some highly
inspiring intuitive insights.  This book is indicative of an
increasing interest in the expression of spirituality in art by
members of our Society reflected in the formation of such groups
as TACO -- The Theosophical Artists Cooperative -- in California.

CONTACT   People from our Society around Australia:
Victoria:  T.S. (Pasadena) Centre, 664 Glenhuntly Rd., Caulfield
South, Melbourne 3162.  Tel: (03) 528.1011,  Fax: (03) 528.3907.
Open Tuesdays and Wednesdays 11 a.m. to 3 p.m.   Public meetings,
study groups, library and bookshop.  For further detail New South
Wales: Walter  Geerlings.  56 Oxford St., Umina 2257.   Tel.(043)
416.538   Library available.

Australian Capital Territory:    Paddy Plasto, P.O. Box 344,
Kingston, Canberra  2604. Tel. (06) 295.3081. Library available.
Queensland:    Tom van Erp, 25 Norwood Terrace, Paddington,
Brisbane 4064.  Tel.(07) 369.7080 Meetings and Library.
Eric  Niemeyer, 14 Pine Grove st., Nerang 4211. Tel. (075) 782.694
                         Library and discussions

POETRY CORNER
 The Turning Point of Life.
 by: Cleland Rimmer.
There's a milestone on life's  path that brings  us to another start;
Where brighter vistas  open out, where clouds grow light and break apart
...  There's a spot on every road where ruts give place to smooth
green ways; The place that marks a new beginning, and the hope of
fairer days.

Are you weary of the journey - does your burden seem too great?
Are you fighting uphill battles, struggling with hostile Fate?
The milestone at the turning point may be a few steps round the bend.
COURAGE! ...  This may be the spot where joys return and troubles end.

GEMS OF THEOSOPHY - EXCERPT FROM AN ADDRESS BY WILLIAM Q. JUDGE
AT THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGION HELD IN CHICAGO IN 1893. (Compiled
by Lo Guest)

The first Parliament of Religion was held in Chicago U.S.A. in
1893.  The Theosophical Society attended this Parliament and Mr.
William Q. Judge, President of the Society was the speaker on
behalf of the Theosophical Society.  In his speech he outlined
the philosophy of the Theosophical Society and its aims to
promulgate the tenets of the Society.  Below is a picture of
William Q. Judge, take from the book reprinting the speeches
given by the delegates of the various religious bodies who
attended this Parliament.

In his address Mr. Judge spoke of the spiritual meaning of man,
man's evolutionary progress, and said:

     "Now this spiritual man, having always existed, being
     intimately concerned in evolution, dominated by the law of
     cause and effect, =09because in himself he is that very law,
     showing moreover on this plane varieties of force of
     character capacity and opportunity,  his presence must be
     explained while the differences noted have to be accounted
     for.  The doctrine of re-incarnation does all this....  This
     doctrine explains life and nature.  The vast, and under any
     other doctrine unjust, difference between the savage and the
     civilized man, as to both capacity, character and
     opportunity can be understood only through the doctrine, and
     coming to our own stratum the differences of the same kind
     may only thus be explained.  It vindicates Nature and God,
     and removed from religion the blot thrown by men who have
     postulated creeds which paint the Creator as a demon.  Each
     man's life and character are the outcome of his previous
     lives and thoughts.  Each is his own judge, his own
     executioner, for it is his own hand that forges the weapon
     which works for his punishment. and each by his own life
     reaches rewards, rises to heights of knowledge and power for
     the good of all who may be left behind him.  Nothing is left
     to chance, favour, or partiality, but all is under the
     government of law.  Man is a thinker, and by his thoughts he
     makes the causes for woe or bliss;  for his thoughts produce
     his acts.  He is the centre for any disturbance of the
     universal harmony, and to him, as the centre, the
     disturbance must return so as to bring about equilibrium,
     for nature always works towards harmony.

     Man is always carrying on a series of thoughts which extend
     back to the remote past, continually making action and
     reaction.  He is thus responsible for all his thoughts and
     acts, and in that his complete responsibility is
     established; his own spirit is the essence of this law and
     provides forever compensation for every disturbance and
     adjustment for all effects.  This is the law of Karma or
     justice, sometimes called the ethical law of causation....

LAST WORD:  Two steps to a Higher Life. H.P. Blavatsky tells us in
her Voice of the Silence   that anyone can take the first steps
along the Path to more enlightened living for ourselves and the
world.  She advises us that "To live to benefit mankind is the
first step, to practise the six glorious virtues is the second."

The "virtues" or in Sanskrit "paramitas" meaning "that which has
gone beyond" are listed in various ways in different traditions.
Blavatsky lists them as seven:  1.) Dana: Charity or Love.  2.)
Sila: Harmony in Word and Act.   3.) Kshanti:  Patience.=20 6.)
Dhyana: Meditation, Contemplation, or Concentration which has two
aspects - to eliminate idle thinking, and to concentrate the mind
in a way that will separate it from bondage to appearances.  7.)
Prajna:  Intuitive Wisdom.

We all have the opportunity  in our own special ways to apply
some, at least, of these principles in our lives - so let's start
walking!.


The Australasian T.S. Newsletter is edited by Andrew Rooke, T.S.
(Pasadena) Centre, 664 Glenhuntly Rd.,  South Caulfield,
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 3162.  Tel. (03) 528.1011.  Fax:
(03) 528.3907,  Internet: ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au.  There
is no charge for this Newsletter.  If you wish to be placed on
the mailing list (hardcopy version), please contact the editor.

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:53:32 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: Astralasian TS Newsletter

I think that the newsletter is interesting, and would like to see it
every month. Its size is small compared to the potential volume of
discussion in "theos-l" in the coming year. My suggestion would be
that its editor subscribe to "theos-l", and post to it the newsletter
every month. What do the rest of us think???

                                        Eldon Tucker
                                        eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:52:52 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Comments to Eldon

Eldon,

     I have enjoyed reading your articles on various theosophical
themes.  Your viewpoint on magic and psychic abilities sounds
very close to the Pasadena TS line.  I agree with you for the
most part, but have a few reservations with some minor aspects.

     You wrote <When those qualities have been developed, an
appropriate vehicle of consciousness will have been developed for
that globe and you will just naturally find yourself reborn
there.>  What is your source for implying that we will be reborn
on other globes of this planetary chain?  Do you mean as our
lifewave evolves?  Or as an individual?  Do we still come back
again to globe D?

     A very small point, is your suggestion that a dog has no
manas (ie., "it would still not have manas").  This sounds like
the Christian notion that a dog has no soul and thus no afterlife
or reimbodiment.  I would like to think that all animals have
manas, but simply not as developed as humans.  Certainly many
animals have the rudiments of thought processes.  One of the
teachings of Besant/Leadbeater that I most dislike is the notion
of a group soul.  Not that I don't buy it, but they always seem
to forget that we human beings also have a group soul.  The group
soul does not distinguish us from animals - at least not in MHO.
Every living monadic life-wave has its own group soul.  Animals
are as independent as humans in MHO.

     <The personal desire for powers can be corrupting and is a
hinderance to overcome>  I think I agree with you here in
principle.  Powers should be allowed to develope naturally as a
fallout from spiritual development.  They are a by-product rather
than a goal in themselves.

     I am not at all sure why you think the "psychic scientist"
cultivates his/her ego.  Why can't a psychic scientist help
others in some way?  Maybe you could further define this term?

     <To hasten our spiritual evolution, to advance the current
state of things, is not related to any particular alteration of
the personality>  Oh yes it is.  Perhaps I am quoting you out of
context here, but to tell the truth, I am not sure what you are
saying in this paragraph.  Maybe you could rephrase it for me(?).
I agree that "Our ultimate goal is to develop the buddhi-manasic
consciousness."  It is just this goal that we can reach in this
very lifetime by an "accelerated advancement."  Just look, for
two quick examples, at Jesus and Buddha.  Both were human beings,
just like us.  But they had highly developed buddhi-manas
principles, while we do not.  Why can't yoga and magic be used to
advance such a development?

     Why do you say that practicing magic is equivalent to
"enhancing the kama-pranic powers of the personality?"  I rather
agree with Jay that "magic is a tool that can be used to further
a person's efforts at service."  First of all, there are two
kinds of magic.  Low magic is probably what you had in mind -
using consciousness and psychic forces to bring about a
deliberate change in one's environment.  This usually tends to
inflate the ego.  But what is wrong with high magic (except, of
course, for the dangers inherent in it)?  The goal of high magic
and yoga are identical - to raise consciousness to union with
divinity, and to raise our sense of identity to that of our inner
god (or goddess).  High Magic teaches that we each have an inner
god/goddess.  It then says that this inner divinity is our
spiritual component and that we can unite our consciousness (and
our sense of identity) with it.  High Magic also uses the
technique of out-of-body travel to send consciousness out into
the planes and globes of our planetary chain, to learn first-hand
what is there, and what our universe is all about.  This
knowledge can either be used for one's selfish purposes (black
magic), or to help others (white magic).

     You write that <Magic relates to kama-prana, the energized
desire that leads to things happening in the world>  which sounds
like low magic.  What is your source for this relationship?  I
think that HPB wrote that the only difference between black and
white magic was in the purpose.  Both use occult or hidden forces
and laws.

     Speaking for myself, I do not practice low magic.  However,
I do practice high magic as well as yoga.  I do not think that it
necessarily strengthens the sense of personal self.  In fact, the
personal self can go no higher than the mental plane.  To go
beyond the mental plane, you must leave the human personality and
take on a new one (for example, you must identify with your
Reincarnating Ego to reach the Causal Plane).

     Grace Knoche once told me that the real danger to trying to
hasten spiritual development was one's own karma.  As soon as you
sincerely decide to tread to Path, your own karmic burden, laid
up over many lifetimes, will ripen and manifest itself in a
torrent of horrible circumstances, that would otherwise have
required many more lifetimes to manifest.  This certainly rang a
chord in myself.  I had found this to be true many years earlier,
while practising Christian Science.  Christian Scientists call
the Opposer, Mortal Mind, and teach that it shouts loudest after
you make an honest effort to practice Christian Science.  This is
the same idea in different words.  The theosophical Opposer is
karma.  To every would-be Horus, there is a Set.  However, I
deliberately chose to take on this burden and "go for it."  I
would certainly never suggest this for anyone else - it is a
highly personal decision, and one that we must each make for
ourselves, when we are ready to do so.  For example, I now have
RA (the bad kind of arthritis) and my wife has breast cancer,
etc.  Now, I no longer practice low magic, nor am I a Christian
Scientist.  So I do the best I can with medicine (a few aspirins
when things get bad) and try to hang in there.  I have discovered
that feeling pain all day, every day, can make one a sensitive
person.  I have also discovered that pain and pleasure are a
duality and that you can't experience one without the other.
Maybe I will make a few more discoveries before the pain goes
away?  Anyway, I have tried to face my karma as much as possible
- not an easy task at all.  In addition to all of this, I feel
that my own books on magic have also generated some personal
karma for me.  I knew that this would be the case before
publishing the first book, and decided that if my books on magic
could help people (the whole business of Enochian Magic was a
chaotic mess up until then, and people were hurting themselves by
having only partial knowledge) then it would be worth it.
Anyway, I consider myself living proof of the dangers of magic
and of treading the Path, albeit I may be an Initiate and not yet
an Adept (how does one know for sure, since there is always more
to learn?).

By the way, I especially liked your essay on truthfulness.  As a
Christian Scientist, I was taught that Truth is a synonym for
God, and thus to be honest is essential if one wants to get
closer to God.  I still feel the impotance of telling the truth,
and I am delighted to see that others feel the same way.

                                     Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:53:27 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th time - possible listserver bug

(From Nancy)

Hi Eldon,

       In ref to the idea of two methods of developing psychically,
perhaps one is from the bottom up (from a materialistic point of view)
which is mostly what we see going on today, and the second might be from
the top down -- that  is, developing the ethical and spiritual nature
first, which  naturally leads to increase in awareness on all the
planes.

Perhaps in that sense, there are two methods.

Bye.

                                        Nancy
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:24:35 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Comments to Eldon

To Gerry ,

       I just read your note to Eldon.  So sorry to hear of all the
physical problems.  Have you considered homeopathic treatment?  I was
raised as a Christian Scientist and credit it for helping me keep an
open mind.  What scares me about it is how so many of its adherents are
in a perpetual state of total denial about whatever they don't like.  My
mom for instance, instead of trying to work through a relationship
problem will deny it has any reality, "I'll just KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT
IT" she'll say, "Let's not talk about it any more because that just
sends energy in the wrong direction."

       I appreciated your comments on magic and yoga.  Thanks.

Bye

Nancy.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 00:58:48 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: psychism

     Second, taking off from Eldon's discussions of psychism, I
would like to add a thought or two based on my personal
experiences in the matter.  It seems that all my life, I've heard
tales concerning psychic phenomena of all types.  Psychics are in
every generation in my own family, and stories going back to my
great grandmother in the early and mid 1800's, have been handed
down, and I've seen more than my share of phenomena.  It seems
that psychic abilities have more to do with heredity and have
about as much to do with spiritual development as the color of
one's hair.  Therefore, I agree with Eldon; psychic ability is
NOT a sign of spiritual development, and would like to share some
personal experiences that led me to believe this to be so.

     As Eldon pointed out, this E.S.P. seems to be of two types;
one is based in the emotional/mental nature, while the other
seems to be a function of one's spiritual nature. The first, is
what I call "lower psychism," and if anything, is more of a
hinderance to spiritual development, rather than a sign of it.
The other appears to be a function of our spiritual nature, and
is also accessible to everyone, but doesn't receive as much
attention.  I call this mode of perception "spiritual vision."

     The lower psychism, based upon the emotional/mental nature
seems to be very common.  About every third person I meet seems
to have this psychic nature to a greater or lessor degree.  For
some reason, I'm immediately aware of who those people are upon
meeting them--but that is partly because I have the dubious honor
of being among this group.  These people are all able to at least
sense if not experience other people's feelings.  A lessor number
of them will also pickup other's thoughts (telepathy), but I
never met anyone who could do this at will and with any accuracy-
-it was always involuntary.

     On the psychic vision (clairvoyant) level, I found that most
people can see energy fields around people and objects.  I use to
teach theosophy classes in Los Angeles, and one segment was
always devoted to psychism.  In teaching these classes, I
discovered that with very little training, almost everyone leaned
to see these fields in greater or lessor detail.  I've
tentatively concluded that they are really on the lower threshold
of physical vision, accessible to everyone, but unconsciously
blocked out because they really don't convey much (for most
people) meaningful information.  This kind of perception seems to
be consistent with C.W. Leadbeater's description of "etheric
vision,"  but it is not what Blavatsky means by the "etheric" or
of the Linga Shirira.

     Perception of colors around people, seems to be much rarer.
Those whom I have met with this ability, usually see only the
nimbus, and at that only occasionally and involuntary.  A few
people are able to see the entire "aura," and are able to do so
at all times, but usually don't pay attention to it, for the same
reason that people cut out "etheric vision."  My own experiences
with seeing colors are very occasional and involuntary, so there
is little I can say on this from personal experience.  But I have
conducted interviews with numerous people who have this ability
at all times, and have discovered an inconsistency as to their
perceptions of the significance of the colors.  One person (a
theosophist) I interviewed, was very familiar with C.W.L.'s
correlations of colors (MAN VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE), and said that
they were not consistent with her experiences.

     Another thing I learned, is that the reputation of the
psychic has little to do with accuracy.  Around 1964, I was at a
theosophical gathering at Krotona, where everyone was milling
around in a large reception room in the main building.  At a
certain moment among those people, I was thinking about the
Liberal Catholic Church.  Almost immediately, an elderly woman
came across the room and told me that I would someday be a Bishop
in the Liberal Catholic Church.  She then almost as quickly moved
back across the room to continue her conversation with someone
else.  As soon as she left, another elderly man came up to me and
asked what the lady said to me.  I told him, and he replied that
I should take her words seriously, because she was Phoebe Bendit,
one of the three greatest psychics of the Theosophical Society.
C.W. Leadbeater and Dora Kunz, according to him, were the other
two.  Those of you who personally know me, can testify that my
becoming a Bishop in the Liberal Catholic Church is very
unlikely.  The above incident seemed to me to be more of an
impressive demonstration of telepathy, rather than a prediction
of my future.

     About twelve years later, after Phoebe Bendit, had passed
away, her psychiatrist husband, Laurance moved to Ojai, and for a
short time, we resumed our friendship that had begun in the early
sixties.  For the first time, I related my experience regarding
his wife to him, and we fell into a rather lengthy conversation
concerning his fifty years worth of experiences with Phoebe, and
other psychics he had known.  He made one very important point
that stands out in my mind: clairvoyants, in his experience, are
unable to distinguish where their observations end and their
imagination begins.  He was convinced that this was a problem
with all of them he had known, including his wife and C.W.
Leadbeater.

     Around the late sixties, Dame Sybil Leek, came to Los
Angeles on a speaking tour.  On a whim, I bought a ticket and
went to hear her speak about Witchcraft.  During the question and
answer period, a woman began to describe the training she went
through to develop "psychic powers,"  and said she was able to
see events before they happened.  As she described her
experiences her stress elevated, her voice started to break--she
said that she was unable to turn this ability off, and began to
beg the speaker for help her do so.  Sybil Leek, replied: "My
dear, you have a great gift."  Most of the audience was
distressed at this woman's plight, and understood the danger
here.  Unfortunately, there were others, like the speaker, who
seemed to miss the point.

     I have a few personal experiences of a lower psychic nature
that seem to be unique, and would like to know if anyone had
experienced anything similar.  One that stands out at the moment
was from childhood.  I remember being able to look at the wall
nearest my bed, and its solidity would melt away into a vortex of
energy.  The wall at first would look like it was completely
covered with ants moving at an amazing speed, then disappear all
together.  Behind, or rather within the wall, were a couple, in
all appearances perfectly normal adult people.  We would have
conversations, the substance of which I can no longer remember,
except that they spoke as adults and whatever they said was very
consoling and important to me at the time.  One day, they told me
that they had to move on, and I would not see them again.  I
remember my deep disappointment upon hearing this.  A day or so
later, I looked into the same wall, and it evaporated as before,
but no one was there.  I never repeated this until, some years
later, remembering the incident, I tried again, and the wall
opened as usual, but it was with effort for the first time.
Still, there was nothing there.  Over the years, I had forgotten
the incident until I was in my teens. I was working a night job,
stuffing newspapers, and glanced to the cement floor, which began
to open in the same way as before.

     I have collected stories from several people who, in stress,
have had people appear in their rooms, but not in walls.  This
seems to be unique.  Perhaps someone else has had an experience
like this.

     Another problem has to do with the emotional nature of
psychic transference.  Other people's feelings were always a
source of confusion, to me because I was never able to
distinguish them from my own.  This was never really resolved
until I was in my early thirties.  I remember sitting on a bench
in Griffith park while my daughter was riding a pony. A couple
walked by, and a wave of depression came over me, and I found
myself trying to analyze its source, when I realized that the man
who walked by was deeply depressed.  It was only after that
breakthrough that I learned to make the separation.  My wife
coined the term "low ego boundaries" for this condition. It seems
to fit.

     Regarding what I call "spiritual vision," I think there is a
lot of confusion concerning this.  About seven years ago, a
theosophist approached me with a "message from those in the know"
(ie the E.S.), and began to dictate to me as to what I may or may
not discuss with other members.  I grew angry at his impertinence
of thinking he can dictate to me what I may or may not say, and I
started to tell him off.  He calmly turned away from me, without
giving me the satisfaction of blasting him, only to say as he
left me; "you need to learn to think in your Buddhic body." Only
upon looking back on this incident that it has become funny--at
the time, I found no humor in it.  Buddhic consciousness, of
course, is a level of relative omniscience--it is the state of
consciousness of the Buddha.  My visitor was implying that by his
association with the E.S., he was in possession of this
consciousness, therefore my lowly protests of his infinite wisdom
was of no consequence to him. (I'm telling this story not to
disparage the E.S. I wrote a letter of complaint to one of those
"in the know" and received a reply that he had acted on his own.)

     According to the core teachings of Blavatsky, and of the
Mahatma Letters, the whole of the human race is in the fourth
round; that is we are still perfecting the Kamic principle.  That
is, our emotional nature is still in evolution, and is the
primary overall focus at this time.  However, we are also in the
fifth root race.  This allows us a secondary focus on the
manasic, yet even at this state, we still operate primarily out
of our feelings.  We can't escape them--the primary level of our
consciousness is kama, though we "think" through the manasic
subprinciple of kama.  According to these core teachings, this is
true of everyone, with very few exceptions. Those exceptions are
called "fifth rounders."  When humanity reaches the fifth round--
millions of years from now, its consciousness will be centered in
manas, but it won't be until the sixth round that we will be
operating out of buddhi.  So the claim my impertinent friend made
about himself, if he really understood what he was talking about,
meant that he was tens of millions of years in advance of the
rest of us poor humanity.  He is even in advance of the Mahatmas,
and has the consciousness of the Buddha.  Even K.H. is a
spiritual inferior, as he confessed in a letter to A.P. Sinnett
that he was annoyed with A.O. Hume.

     Therefore, according to those teachings, we are barely in
the human state of evolution.  Our physical forms are human
enough, but our level of consciousness is still more akin to the
animal than to the human.  Yet, we all still get glimpses of
spiritual vision.  Those flashes of intuition, and the simple
knowing that has nothing to do with feelings or logic, are from
those higher realms of consciousness that we are still moving
toward.  This kind of awareness is not accompanied with beautiful
feelings, or exquisite colors, but is simply an extraordinary
level of understanding that is of a loftier and truer quality
than anything that could ever be achieved through psychism or
clairvoyance.  A book that most beautifully expresses the
differences between the psychic and spiritual consciousness is
the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, where the base psychic powers are
called the lower iddhis. But to gain true spiritual vision:

     Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be
     attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all
     illusion.

     Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as
     deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing
     elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden fire-fly.
     Before the soul can comprehend and may remember, she must
     unto the Silent Speaker be united, just as the form to which
     the clay is modelled is first united with the potter's mind.

     For then the soul will hear, and will remember.

     And then to the inner ear will speak--

     THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE

          Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:08:24 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: out-of-body experiences

I'm really glad to see this discussion group in action. It challenges
one to think and express himself, and unlike a regular discussion
group, one can, years later, follow the discussion and benefit from
it (by reading the monthly email files).

There are about three topics I'd like to respond to from Jerry S,
and more from Jerry H-E. Responding to one topic to Jerry S:

----

What constitutes first-hand experience? What constitutes doing
something? What is a real activity? There is something more to the
experiencing of life that just physically going somewhere and seeing
what is there, be it in a globe D physical body or a mayavi rupa on
some other globe.

Our basic seat of consciousness, what we know as ourselves, is the
human ego, a center of consciousness seated in kama-manas. As long as
we as monads remain centered in this principle, our consciousness only
spans a single globe and remains locked in with the flow of the
human lifewave.

When we visit other globes, like in the after-death states, I would
say that it is just us as the higher triad, Atma-Buddhi-Manas, which
passes through. Karmic, self-conscious activity, taking on a physical
form and entering into embodied existence, does not happen. We are in
the bosom of the Monad, and in a devachanic sleep. The reason is that
the kama-manasic self we have evolved appropriate to each globe is
different and appropriate to its respective globe. Our consciousness,
as globe D kama-manasic beings, does not span the globes.

I would expect that most out-of-body experiences are not learning
experiences on other globes, but rather pre-devachanic experiences,
where one populates, animates, then interacts with a number of casts
of characters in a self-devised stage in the astral light.

I do not preclude experiences on other globes, but self-conscious
manifestations, with the full seven principles, with the *process*
of embodiment with birth, growth, etc., requires a dedicated period
of time when not embodied on globe D, and can only happen if one is
already partly rooted in one's consciousness in the Spritual Monad.

For "visits" to the other globes, to "taste" them but not fully
exist there, one is introduced (e.g. "initiated") into such experiences
at the higher initiations held at the sacred seasons, and the purpose
of such visits, I'd think, would be to help one more fully disassociate
from the personality and become rooted in the individuality, by having
a sense of how the globe D personality is only one type of experience
and one's true being is something higher and different that it.

One would have to be nearly a Mahatma, to be able to create a
mayavi rupa on another globe, to be above the normal process of
embodiment both here on globe D and there.

Rebirth on the other globes will come for all of us as the human
lifewave progresses to them. For a few it will come earlier, but when
it happens one is in a "lifetime" there, embodied on another globe and
"dead" here on globe D.

One thing that I wonder about is what happens after one steps a little
ahead of the lifewave, but is not yet a Mahatma or advanced Chela?
We hear of Fifth Rounders and early Fifth Rounders, but what of late
Fourth Rounders? It is there a period of time when one disappears from
being born on globe D, as one's personal focus of reembodiment is on
globe E, F, then G?

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:20:07 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: Comments to Eldon

Jerry writes:
>One of the
>teachings of Besant/Leadbeater that I most dislike is the notion
>of a group soul.  Not that I don't buy it, but they always seem
>to forget that we human beings also have a group soul.  The group
>soul does not distinguish us from animals - at least not in MHO.

I always thought that what seperated humans from animals in this plane
was that we had an individualized soul where animals did not. The number
of animals that made up one group soul varied with the evolution of that
animal, e.g. there may be many bees in a bee group soul but only a few
domesticated dogs or elephants in there respective souls.

Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:50:57 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: union with the divine

Regarding lower and higher magic, I would say that we can take the
activities of any of our principles or elements of consciousness and
have them function in a lower or higher fashion.

The physical senses used for excesses of self-indulgence are a lower
activity, used for art and the appreciation of the spiritual are a
higher activity. And their extension is what I'd call psychic
development. (Linga Sharira)

The vital energies are necessary to sustain and give motion to one's
life. Their lower use is to exhaust them in personal pleasures. Their
higher is to sustain one's unselfish and self-forgetful activities.
(Prana)

The creative will, the deliberate choice to bring things into being,
the entangling energy that gives outer expression to things, can be
used to ensnare one further in mayavic existence, or used to conceive
and bring about wonders in the world. (Kama)

If you call kama "will" and prana "power", then kama-prana would be
"will power". These two aspects of conscious more particularly
describe what is needed to make things happen. Making things happen,
directed towards the material world, is a lower use of this power.
Making things happen, directed towards inner states of consciousness,
is a higher use of this power. I would use "magic" to describe the
extended use of this power, beyond what most people have, in the same
way that I'd use "psychic" to describe an extension of the physical
senses.

Raising one's consciousness to union with the divinity comes in
stages, as one learns to shift the seat of consciousness from the
lower principles to the higher. This shift is one of emphasis or
awareness, not the adding of a new consciousness. The higher principles
are present and functional the whole time, it's just that we're so
preoccupied with the activity of the lower that we don't pay attention
to them, although they are still there as an active component of
our consciousness.

The entire seven principles are present in us as fully embodied beings.
They are also present in dogs, cats, trees, even in the rocks. But
they are not all functional in a self-conscious, self-directed,
individual manner. A dog has manas, but not self-conscious manas, a
dog knows as "a gift" via instinct, a dog does not know because of
cognizing. And we likewise sense higher things as "a gift" via a
higher instinct, because of a lack of self-consciousness in our highest
principles.

There are a number of ways that we can cultivate the goal of the
raising of our consciousness to the divine. Yoga and high magic may be
among them. But it does not matter what particular things that you do
to your body, nor what particular things that you see and touch and
here--on this or any plane--, or the particular beings that you meet and
interact with. Certainly some enoble and others degrade, but the
specific activity of the personality is not so important as the fact
that we learning to appreciate something that is deeper within than
what is happening to the personality.

Changes to the personality carry over to the next personality, they
affect future lifetimes. But the real value from a life is the
spark of a higher awareness, an sense of something that goes beyond
the personality, the aroma or essence of that which is high and holy
in the life. This is what separates from the personality in the
after-death states at the second death, when we leave the personality
behind as a dead shell and withdraw into the bosum of the Triad and
begin our devachan.

This essence is the budding consciousness of the individuality in us.
It is what can only be sensed as the "something more beind life" that
we feel but cannot give direct expression to. It is not the highest
there is to all existence, a sense of the ultimate, but rather it is
the budding spark of light within us that will someday both brighten
our lives and provide an entirely new experience of being.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:44:46 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: General Comments

Hi --

The listserver processes the messages to theos-l as they
are distributed.  Some keywords and special Unix/C symbols may
cause problems when used in the text.
(symbols to watch for are (not a complete list):  \,|,<,>,& )

Apparantly "From" on the 1st four chars of a line can cause problems.
If anyone experiences problems...  I would appreceiate it if you send
to *me* (jem@char.vnet.net) a copy of your original message.  I get the
post processed output from listserv (what it sends AND rejects) which
when placed together with the original message (before the processing)
allows one to determine what character sequences caused the problems.
I'm putting together a list of bugs to forward to the listserver
author (which I hope he/she will fix).

Another comment:  Please try to remember that some people are paying
$$ to receive this mail (which can add up).  Just ask yourself
before sending the message if you would send it to a friend
as COD $.29  ??  if not,  then ask why.
(Remember that Internet mail can arrive COD for some people)

To the people who are on networks which charge $$ per mail messages,
There are almost always (or often) flat rate per month e-mail
alternatives _from a local Provider.  We can help to find you one if
needed.

We *now* have an International member (Andrew Rooke- TS/Pasadena
Australia) now on our list.  They have offered to post the Australian
newletter, and I think it would be a nice monthly posting to get. (I
may change my mind when I get one,  but I'm optimistic :-)

also...
The Listserver has commands which you can send it to perform actions.
These can set theos-l to do things, like turn on/off an
'Ack'nowledgement (send a receipt) of your messages (sent back to you).
for example, try sending to:

listserv@char.vnet.net

a message with the following three lines as the message body.

Help
Help set
Review Theos-l

the responses will get you started with the listserver commands.

I think that the command ...

Set Theos-L Mail ack

is active now by default.  This may only apply to future subscribers
though.



(We have about 23 subscribers now!)

Peace --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:14:24 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: agree with JEM

I agree with JEM that there is a need for people to transition
to more cost-effective (e.g. flat-rate) email access to
the "theos-l" list.

I see the value of the group increasing with the volume of materials
written. There is, of course, a difference between junk mail and
valuable materials, but it's hard to prescreen stuff, and it's
important to encourage everyone to write. At this point in the
development of "theos-l", I'd see our goal to interest others to
subscribe and encourage everyone to keep active.

It is possible that by next year we will be at 200 subscribers
and 10-20 pages of daily email. I don't think that there should be
any attempt to control the free flow of thoughts as we explore
theosophy. We're not a published magazine with a fixed page limit
per issue, we're more like a "channel of thought".

When the volume of materials gets a big bigger, I'd like to
suggest that we create a second group, perhaps called "theosmag-l",
which would contain monthly theosophical periodicals, reprints of
articles that we have written, and lengthy pieces (say 20-pages or
more). At this point, it may be a premature idea, but in a few
months, who knows where we'll be?

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:38:05 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: the role of the intellect

 Following is the quote which I typed in yesterday, but it did not go
 out, somehow getting truncated. There are a number of important
 points that it makes with regard to science, the role of the
 intellect, and the place of metaphysical study ...

----

      "The white Adept is not always at first of powerful intellect.
  In fact, H.P.B. had known Adepts whose intellecutal powers were
  originally below the average. It is the Adept's purity, his equal
  love to all, his working with Nature, with Karma, with his "Inner
  God", that give him his power. Intellect by itself alone will make
  the Black Magician. For intellect alone is accompanied with pride
  and selfishness; it is the intellectual *plus* the spiritual that
  raises man. For spirituality prevents pride and vanity."

      "Metaphysics are the domain of the Higher Manas: whereas physics
  are that of Kama-Manas, which does the thinking in physical science
  and on material things. ... The matematician without spirituality,
  however great he may be, will not reach metaphysics; but the
  metaphysician will master the highest conceptions of mathematics,
  and will apply them, without learning the latter. To a born
  metaphysician the psychic plane will not be of much account; he will
  see its errors immediately ..."

  [Inner Group Teachings of HPB, pages 7-8, Point Loma Publications]

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 17:15:33 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: group souls

While I'm waiting on the computer for a few minutes, as I'm installing
some software, I'm thinking of the concept of "group souls" and wanting
to comment on it.

----

We are individual Monads from the very beginning of our evolution on
the earth chain, starting with the very first elemental kingdom. We
have our full seven principles from the start, although there is no
self-consciousness in them.

Over vast periods of evolution, we not only make karma, but are that
karma, and it changes and we change. Our personal karma is what makes
up us, and when we were animal Monads it was what made us animals in
the animal kingdom rather than something else.

The learning and experience that we acquire from one existence to
the next not only caries forward with us, but it *is* us, and is never
lost or merged back into some pool of experience.

When one dies, the materials that make up his principles, the skandhas,
go back to their respective elements. But they are personally ours,
and those same materials come back to form our principles in the next
lifetime. It is the same with animals or for Monads in any kingdom.

The merits and rewards of a particular life are not lost to some
group being, to some pool of experience. When "group souls" are used
to refer to this, I'd call the idea wrong.

What is true of animals as a group is that they do not yet have
self-conscious thought, what they think and know is not by individual
effort, but by instinct, a form of group thought. They share the ideas
and opinions of their pool of thought, which originates, I think, by
the guidance of the Dhyani-Chohans in looking over their species.
Their thought is passive, mediumistic, sponge-like, they absorbe the
thoughts of their species and environment and do not generally have
unique thoughts of their one, apart from that. They are incapable of
abstract thought.

If we were to replace the term "group soul" with "group thought", or
perhaps "thought group", we'd get closer to what I'd consider to
be happening.

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 08:42:10 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: group souls

Eldon writes:

> The merits and rewards of a particular life are not lost to some
> group being, to some pool of experience. When "group souls" are used
> to refer to this, I'd call the idea wrong.

I've always seen this differently (feel free to tell me that I'm
nuts :-).

What is life in this case? To me its the life of the soul - not the life
of the physical incarnations that matter. A group soul is an
individual soul that may have parts of it incarnate in many
physical bodies at the same time and thus drawing experience from
them at the same time. The physical life of a bee, for instance,
probably does not provide much in reward at the soul level but the life
of many bees can provide some limited reward even though the
spirituality of even a hive of bees is quite limited.

As the soul evolves, it is able to put much more into a given
incarnation and thus does not need or desire many incarnations
at the same time as that dilutes the souls ability to focus. As it
enters the kingdom of man, the soul only incarnates one physical
body at a time (and needs to rest considerably between incarnations
to enjoy in the effects of its efforts).

When Eldon writes:

> The merits and rewards of a particular life are not lost to some
>  group being, to some pool of experience.

I disagree. Though in my interpretation, a group being is still
one soul - an individual who has had many physical lives.

I can' t think of any literature to back up my position - its just the
way it feels to me so, as previously stated, feel free to tell me that
I'm nuts.

   -Mike
-----------
Mike Grenier                      Unisys Government Systems
                             (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:55:08 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Yogic-Magic

Nancy,

Hello, Nancy, glad to hear from you.  I have enjoyed your
articles in Sunrise.

Let me briefly explain my "yogic-magic."  The ultimate goal or
purpose of yoga and magic (at least High Magic) is the same - to
become conscious of, and then to identify with, the inner
divinity or god/goddess at the core of our being.

Buddhism teaches that yoga can control the three main components
of every human being - body, speech, and mind.  By sitting in a
particular posture, we can transcend our body.  By repeating a
certain mantra, we can transcend our speech.  And by directing
our thinking toward one object to attain one-pointed
concentration, we can transcend our mind.  Thus yoga usually
works in a quiet and still framework.  Yoga employs the technique
of meditation.  Magic also addresses the body, speech, and mind.
But rather than trying to supress these, magic channels or
focuses them.  Magic employs the technique of ritual.

I am not the first one to combine yogic meditation with magical
ritual.  I addressed the process, specifically geared to the
Enochian melieu, in my ENOCHIAN YOGA but the general procedures
can be broadened to apply to any magical system.  The idea is to
perform a ritual in which your body, speech, and mind all work
together toward focusing consciousness on some goal.  Magical
rituals are not only dependent upon doing things and saying
things, but to be effective the mind must also employ imagery or
visualization.  All three components must be brought into play.
The rituals that I devised in my magic books, for example, may
require you to say something while you hold a symbolic
instrument, face a particular direction, and focus your
imagination on a particular setting.  The idea is to put your
whole self into the operation.  I find this at times to be more
effective than simply using meditation or ritual by themselves.

                                    Jerry S
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 03:27:29 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: bouncing ashore

Dear John,
Tonight, the messages seem to be traveling to their destinations.
I am going to try to upload some bounced messages from PINE from
the other evening.  The irony is that though they say "unsent"
I believe they ultimately were sent??!!??
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 21:47:42 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Some Comments

Nancy,

I received several earlier messages from you that only had titles, but
no message.  But your 10/12 messages got through to me just fine
including those sent to me alone and those sent through Theos-l.
You're learning.  You have my CompuServe number right.  Please say
hello to John for me, and to all my friends as HQ.  I believe that
this network has more potential than PeaceNet, simply because it is
used by more people, albeit it costs more to use.  The PeaceNet price
of $10 per month was great.  I plan to retire early next year and will
be on a fixed budget, so I can't promise that I will be able to
continue here, but we shall see what develops.  Thank you for the
headsup on New Leaf - I wasn't aware of it.

Although your comment on two methods of psychic development was
intended for Eldon, I want to say that I agree with you.  I think that
these two viewpoints (top down vs bottom up) are exactly what is going
on.

As to my health, no I haven't yet considered homeopathy, about which I
must confess to knowing virtually nothing.  But I was born a "blue"
baby and had a long childhood of one sickness after the other.  When I
was 12 our family became Christian Scientists, and my health improved
to the point that I never even got a headache.  After leaving Christian
Science my earlier poor health slowly began to return.  I have concluded
from all of this that Christian Science can damn up past karma real good
but doesn't eliminate it.  Since I was born sickly, I have to suppose
that I brought a lot of bad karma over with me (I obviously was
reluctant to be born again).  Of course, my mother (if she were still
alive) would say that I simply never had a "real" healing because with
a "real" healing, the problem never comes back. To which I would likely
quote Ronald Regan that we should "never say never."  Anyway, I have
decided to get through my past karma rather than worry about my
physical manifestations of it.

Jay.

I felt the need to respond to your comment on group souls, but then I
read Eldon's response of 13 Oct 17:15:33, which says it better than I
could.  I think that there is a correspondence between the occult
teaching of a group soul and Sheldrake's idea of morphic fields.  The
pernicious idea that animals do not have individual souls is equivalent
to the Christian teaching that they have no souls at all - anyone with
sensitivity who is close to their household pets would soon discover the
silliness of such an idea, which stems from our egotistical belief that
we humans are somehow better than animals.  By the way, the reason I
call this idea pernicious is because many use it as their rationale for
abusing or killing animals.

Eldon.

Regarding "visits" to the other Globes.  You don't have to be an Adept
to do this.  I wanted to expand on the work that I had begun on PeaceNet
outlining and describing the paths and globes of the Gupta Vidya Model.
My goal was to expand my article into a whole book which would,
hopefully, spark more interest in HPB's model within the occult
community.  I attempted to do so in a scientific manner, as much as
possible.  I used what I have called "signposts" which are like special
items/attractions placed on a tourist map - those few main sites that
every visitor should observe at specific locations.  The rest I regarded
as personal.  In this way I was able to "visit," via pathworking
techniques (not, so far as I know, in the mayavi-rupa), the globes and
describe them, at least their structural forms or atmospheres (how
should one describe Globe D, for example?).  I was influenced a lot from
my previous work with the Sephiroth.  But I had to try to eliminate my
own imaginings from my more general or "external" observations.  This
is never easy (if it is even possible).

I especially liked Jerry H-E's essay on psychism because his
observations match my own.  His "unable to distinguish where their
observations end and their imagination begins" is exactly right and
demonstrates the need for signposts.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:39:51 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: something special

There is so much to follow up on that I could write something everyday
for a week and have more to write!

----

Jerry S.:

I'd hate to see you leave us because of costs. You might look into
'delphi', which has a $20/month plan for 20 hours of connect time,
with just a $3/month surcharge for internet access. It could put a
price cap on participating in 'theos-l' even when the "current in
the thought channel" steps up its flow.

I have some more ideas to discuss regarding visiting the globes,
and hope to have time to write them today.

----

Nancy C.:

As a matter of personality development, "bottup up" is ok as an
approach. It is good to cultivate the personality, to pay attention to
it and see that it is properly tended to, like a well-kept garden.

More important that the personality, though, is the process of
evolution, of learning to center the consciousness higher within.
Doing so does not preclude the use of the lower principles, working
with them, just changing the center of consciousness out of which all
activity and experience arises.

Psychic powers are premature for our subrace, and carry with them
both good and bad. We appreciate the good but may not be properly
trained to deal with the bad. They may naturally occur at a certain
stage of development, but perhaps even then they would be turned off
when we are functioning in the globe D personality.

There's an interesting quote in "The Mahatma Letters" to the effect
that a Mahatma is not such, when in the personality, unless the
personality is put aside and he is specially functioning in that part
of his being. The upadhi for our human consciousness, built of fourth
round materials, is not sufficient for outward functioning as a fifth
rounder. The Mahatma is such when functioning *inward*, apart from
the personality, and that is how he is able to progress ahead of
the outer evolution of humanity.

It is possible to race ahead of humanity in the bosum of the higher
Triad, in the individuality, and it is not necessary that the
personality have physical characteristics of future races, including
future types of sense perception.

I would not say that a "top down" approach would mean that you
work on the top things first and the lower come later, as a progression.
And I wouldn't exactly say that you simply pay attention to the higher
and the lower will of its own accord automatically take care of itself.
All parts of our live and development need to be given attention and
managed. You diet when necessary; you meditate to calm the mind; you
cultivate the right sort of feelings for the people you encounter in
life. Every principle needs attention.

The question is where is the seat of consciousness? Where is the
focus? What is the primary motivator? Where is the high-water mark of
self-consciousness? We've evolved forth the seven principles in the
quest of self-consciousness, reached as far as we can with the
physical, and started the upward climb, returning with a special
treasure, the sense of self-consciousness. It has reached as high as
our current seat of consciousness, kama-manas for the human kingdom.
It will eventually, in future kingdoms, reach atman and be withdrawn
into one's unmanifest being, to become an brightening of ones
self-essence, one's swabhava.

Psychic powers are an extension of an attribute of the personality.
They are a way of experience manifested existance which we have
acquired and brought to self-consciousness much earlier in our
evolution, in much earlier kingdoms. They will come naturally in
future subraces, but there need be no hurry to acquire them. We
out run the human lifewave and advance on the Path in a higher part
of our nature, which is not tied to the vital-astral-physical monad.
We could cultivate them, but why bother?

People will be drawn to the theosophical teachings out of an innate
hunger for something more, something that they find is satisfied by
what they find. Wonders and phenomena attract people from a different
sort of motivation, people who may not be at a point in life of being
ready for exposure to the Mysteries, and these people will likely move
on to something more like spiritualism. Psychic wonders are not needed
to create in other people an attraction to the Esoteric Philosophy.

We offer a philosophy that is *special*, and its value is found by
diving into its study, not by it's providing better instructions or
information on psychic cultivation. We don't offer wonders, so wonder
seekers will not stay long with us.

I would say to let the psychic capabilities lay dormant until the
sixth or seven major races, when then will be the appropriate senses
provided to us. Look to the sense of mystery and seek a higher form
of experiencing what it is to be alive, something not to be sensed,
something not to be felt, something not to be thought, but rather
something different, something we sense as missing but dearly wanted,
something we know is a part of our consciousness but which we just
can't yet find...

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 11:45:37 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: the Monad and group souls

The idea of group souls is related to several other ideas that are seen
in the Besant/Leadbeater school, but which I haven't found in Blavatsky
nor Purucker/Point Loma writings.

It is important to keep flexible in our thinking, to keep our thoughts
from crystalizing, to have every idea open to reevaluation and deeper
understandings. (In this regard, I want to reexamine the idea of karma
in the near future.)

Because there are differences in what is taught in the different
schools of theosophy, having studied more than one school, I can
offer different slants on some of the ideas. There are perhaps one
to two dozen key ideas in the Besant/Leadbeater writings that might
be reconsidered. Some Purucker/Point Loma ideas could be reexamined
as well. We have to handle each idea on a case-by-case basis to see
if it is a deviation from the original theosophy, a further revealation
of the teachings, or a simple idea that veils a deeper truth, where
we want to explore that deeper truth ...

A Monad is the basic unit of being. It is indivisible. It is unique.
It is not composite, although in manifestation the ray that it
projects into existence is composite, impermanent, relatively unreal.
It has its own relation to the Timeless, and is thereby eternal in
nature. It has no beginning nor end, because only things that *exist*
have a start and finish. It is a point of consciousness, ever hungering
for increased self-consciousness, which can only be found by coming
into life, by periodic existences.

A Monad is not created at some point of time by "fission" from another
Monad. In manifestation, it bears close relationship with other Monads,
and these relationships could exist for an entire mahamanvantara. It
does not have a birth by "individualization" from an animal group soul.

Looking at ourselves, we are more evolved than the animals. We
function self-consciously in a higher principle of consciousness than
they do. But any of us as a human monad could not exist as many
independent human beings, with separate personalities and bodies, at
once! Not as twin-souls nor as a group of people! There is no
oversoul that we lose our separate identity into at some future point
in time, with a permanent, eternal loss of selfhood! We are a part of
the eternal nature of things, deeply rooted in the timeless, and will
always persist.

Now our manifested existence at a particular point of time may be
derived from various other beings, which provide the elements and
materials of form and being that allow us to *be* ourselves. But
our essential unique nature as Monads is not derived from anything
else but the *Source*. And it is not possible for us to be rooted in
the timeless, unless there is something in us that partakes of the
nature of timelessness...

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 04:23:08 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Re: something special

To Eldon, From Nancy

Thanks for your notes.  I agree that psychic capabilities are not
to be toyed toyed with  But don't we use our psychic abilities
in daily communication and thinking -- why do we have to talk
about them as 'wonders' etc?

   Sorry we will miss you in San Diego this weekend.  Although
there may be some week night meetings, I never get to them.  We'll
be back down  Nov 21 -- maybe we can visit then.

    Some of my messages did not get posted because of my lack of
systems skills, so I don't know if my message with my question
about past lives was already received.  No one has commented so
I'll ask it again.  Some therapists are finding that patients
with medical/clincal symptoms and problems, are healed/relieved
after doing past-life regressions.  How can we as theosophists
begin to explain what might be happening? We say that
We have a body of literature that discusses dying, death
and after death states that don't include remembering past lives.
Are people connecting to something other than a past life?  Why
should it appear to be satisfying?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 11:40:44 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: various

To Jerry HE

       I would like to read the editorial you mention, Are We
Chained to the Past?, as it sounds relevant  still.

To Eldon --

I don't understand what you meant by the split being undone
       by Pasadena -- could you elaborate?

To Jerry S --

       Thanks for your discussion on yogic magic -- I think
that you are on the trail of something when you wonder if Jesus
or HPB might be excommunicated if they were here among us.  Seems to
me part of their task was to wake us up, so whatever we are comfortable
with would be what we'd need to wake up from -- not a pleasant
thought to most of us.  So, my friend, how do we keep from falling
asleep, how do we wake up to begin with.  How can we appreciate
the past, our traditions, our principles, without endlessly quoting
them and getting stuck in them?
   I was not able to read you last message, would you resend it please.

Thanks.  from Nancy C.  Bye.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 17:23:44 -0400
From: BALAM@delphi.com
Subject: MEDITATION

Jerry S., I'm glad you defined your use of the terms yoga
and magic.  Both certainly can be interpreted in several ways.
My understanding of meditation, for instance, views the
transcendental Buddhic or Hindu form you describe to be an
outdated, obsolete practice.  This you support by your comment
that you find the combination of meditation with ritual to be
more effective than when practiced by itself.  To explain
further my point; karmic effects in our lives, from past
actions, form patterns of behavior which are recorded as
memory whithin the kama-manas principle.  In other words,
the content of thought in the lower mind and subconscious
is an indication, if not the very embodiment of the
self-centered ego; that ego which thrives on emotional
energy to keep it alive.  The thoughts we entertain,
supported by sensual desire and emotional reaction, must be
properly exposed to the light of the conscious awareness for
recognition and subjugation.  Therefore mantra meditations,
one-pointed concentration and the exploitation of the
imagination through visualization, are but vain attempts to
arrive at liberation.  There are similar methods however that
do have their place in a genuine process of self-development.

So again I repeat, most forms of meditation including ritual
(high) magic are superficial (skin deep) and therefore obsolete.
True enlightenment requires that one must first experience
the long and painful process of awakening through
poignant realization, often referred to as repentance.
Without these divine feelings of shame and sorrow for ones
anger supported egotism, there is little hope for real
transformation.  That transformation is achieved by the
auditing of the karmic content of the "lower" mind and
attitude.  Then when negative traits are eventually
dissolved, the "higher" mind (conscience) automatically
comes in to play a more major role in one's life.
The lower and higher mind are ultimately one whole; thought
mingling with consciousness.  In reality there is no physical
boundary or barrier between the two.  One "unites" (yoga) with
divinity (higher mind) simply by eliminating the illusion of
separateness; a separateness supported by self-centered
thought.

Automatism of mind and feeling, as H.P.B. explains, is the
cause of the difficulty in passing through the process of
antaskarana; that is to arrive at a higher consciousness,
after a thorough examination and cleansing of lower states.
This topic of course is of profound depth, and unfortunately
all the keys to accomplish this task are not presented in
any organized fashion in theosophy, although the essentials
can be found in fragmented form throughout.

                               Sarah
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 20:52:36 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Monads

Eldon, regarding psychic abilities, it may sound all well and
good to say "let the psychic capabilities lay dormant until the
sixth or seven major races" but just how do we do this?  I
understand that they will follow as a natural extension of
spiritual development - which we *are* supposed to be
cultivating.  Let me tell you a quick story.  Betty, my wife, has
always been rather sensitive, while I have only recently been
getting that way.  She has always had the ability to feel other
people's thoughts and emotions.  I have had to learn this as I
went along. Anyway, many years ago we both got into Tarot
readings.  I was fairly apt, but she was great!  She could almost
always tell people their fortune, and used the cards only as a
focus.  But after some time went by, we found more and more bad
things that were going to happen - and they did.  She would warn
people, but they almost never listened.  Anyway, we had foster
children at the time - two boys that we had for almost 2 years.
Their mother was going to get them back, and we were afraid for
them because she wasn't ready to settle down and be a proper
mother to them.  Betty read the cards each day, and each day they
told us that we would lose the kids.  Finally, they did, in fact,
go back to their mother somewhere on the streets of Wilmington
Delaware.  Betty took it very hard.  She quit reading the cards,
and except for a few readings lately with our own Enochian Tarot
cards, she leaves them alone saying "I don't want to know whats
going to happen."  But my point is, if psychic development
naturally accompanies spiritual development, how can you stop it,
even if you want to.  Not only that but most psychic abilites are
tied into simply being sensitive or empathetic to others, which
is a positive thing.  How can one be sensitive and empathetic
without having at least some psychic ability?  Thus I see the
whole business of psychic and spiritual development as being
inevitably joined.  Although, of course, you can have psychic
development without the spiritual, and it is this that leads to
what I call karmic backlash.

Your quote about the Mahatma not being such when in the
personality is an very old teaching in magic schools.  Magicians
typically will give magical names to their higher selves, and
then use those names as authors when writing while attuned to
them (we have more than one higher self).  The ability to step
out of the human personality and identify yourself with your
individuality, for example, is the only safe way to explore the
higher Globes of our planetary chain.

My next point concerns your statement the every Monad is
"unique." Where did you get this idea from?  Can you quote a
source?  And I will try to explain to you why I ask this.  It is
not an easy thing to put into words.  I took at stab at it in my
ENOCHIAN PHYSICS, but it is tricky.  The idea is this:  Suppose
you have two separate things.  Now, lets suppose that they are
exactly alike in shape, color, texture, and so on.  Even if we
agree that they are exactly identical, we would still know that
they are separate things because two physical objects can't
occupy the same place at the same time.  OK.  So far so good.  If
we have two objects or things that are exactly identical, they
are still divisible by space and time.  Now, lets suppose that
our objects are spiritual monads.  We have two identical monads
which are separate and unique, but outside of space and time
(i.e., they are both eternal and infinite).  What happens when
these two spiritual monads come together and, in fact, do occupy
the very same space at the same time?  In other words, lets
suppose that we have two monads that are exactly identical, and
who both occupy the very same space at the same point in time.
How can we tell the difference between them?  How can we say that
they are unique?

There is no longer any measuring rod that can measure a
difference.  They are unique, but also at the same time they are
one and the same.  Thus oneness and manyness blur together so
that no real distinction can be made any longer.  This is just
what I believe happens when two monads below the highest
Ring-Pass-Not of Globe D' (D prime) rise upward through the last
barrier and return to their true divine monadic natures.
Divinity itself can be considered one, but it could also be an
infinite host - there is simply no way that we can tell from our
position.

                                         Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 19:41:50 -0400
From: Christopher A Chambers <chambers@emba.uvm.edu>
Subject: Test & Hello from a new subscriber

  I am sending this a a test of the list since I haven't yet seen any
traffic from it.

  I have been in the TS since 1990. I joined when I was in the chicago
area doing research are ANL. I have of course been doing reading and
meditation since returning to VT, but I was most happy to learn of
this list. By the way, I learned about this list from the Theosophical
Society Help that I downloaded from compuserve. If any of you haven't
seen it, and have a Windows based PC, its very good. I guess thats all
for now.

   ####################################################################
   |        Christopher A. Chambers         | All that we can not see |
   |       (chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu)      | we call invisible.      |
   |    Computer Science Graduate Student   |   -- The BUGGLES        |
   |    @ the University of Vermont.        |                         |
   ####################################################################
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 19:43:38 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Some thoughts on the Abyss

Sarah,

Thank you for your comments.  I am not at all sure that I
followed your thoughts, though.  I never said that mantra
meditations or one-pointed concentration or visualization are
"vain attempts to arrive at liberation."  Or is that your own
idea?  I would also like to hear some more on "divine feelings of
shame and sorrow."  Do you consider shame and sorrow to be divine
feeling?  I don't think I understand what you mean.  I agree with
your idea of repentence, but only in the sense that one's karmic
burden, built up over many lifetimes, must be extinquished, and
then further actions must be karmaless.  Actually, I think that
meditation and visualization, when done properly, can help us to
break up the "automatism of mind and feeling" that you mentioned.

One of my pet themes, as you may or may not know, is the
existence of a large void or gap called the Great Outer Abyss, or
just Abyss.  It is a Ring-Pass-Not for the human mind, that
separates spiritual formlessness from manifested form.  HPB
mentions it in passing and gives several hints, but otherwise
theosophists have been remarkably silent on the subject.  In
fact, this is one area in which I disagree with G de Purucker.  G
de P taught that everything in nature in gradual and slow.  One
plane, he says, blends nicely into another.  I disagree.  I
believe (and modern atomic physics backs me up on this) that the
cosmic planes are quantum-like regions, where a jump is
necessary.  To get to the etheric or astral, you must leave the
physical body behind - a Ring-Pass-Not for the physcial body.  To
go from the astral to the mental, you must leave the astral body
behind - a Ring-Pass-Not for the astral body, and so on.  To
visit the spiritual, you must leave the human mind or
mental/causal body behind - the Abyss is the barrier that serves
as a Ring-Pass-Not for the human thinking mind - the manas.  What
"jumps" is consciousness.  The cosmic planes are thus somewhat
analogous to the electrons of an atom; electron energy is
quantized and electrons jump rather than flow between energy
levels around the nucleus.  Now, how do we make our consciousness
jump in this way?  Surely it is identical to the Zen teaching of
satori, where consciousness is said to leap from its customary
structure into a spiritual formlessness.  We cannot cross the
Abyss through thinking or study or meditation or contemplation,
albeit these techniques can bring us right up to the brink of the
necessary jump.  I agree with you that "in reality there is no
physical boundary or barrier" and that we must eliminate "the
illusion of separateness."  This idea is pure Buddhism.

                                              Jerry S
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 20:21:00 -0400
From: Andrew Rooke <ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au>
Subject: Theosphical astronomy - Venus

Greetings from friends and companions Downunder! We are enjoying
having access to the network - particularly the current discussion on
psychism which is an endless topic of conversation at our meetings. I
wonder if anybody out there has an interest in theosophical
astronomy? It has always been a strong interest of mine and I have
found it a very good way of introducing people to theosophical ideas
as most people have a fascination with space and a natural attraction
to the beauty of the heavens.

In particular I have been interested in the realationship of the
planet Venus to the Earth on the inner planes. Theosophical
literature speaks in general terms about the close relationship
between the two planets, but, in typical style, does not go into
details, preferring rather to leave such matters to the intuition of
the student. HPB speaks of Venus as the Earth's "primary and its
spiritual prototype" and "every sin committed on Earth is felt by
Usanas-Sukra(Venus)..."Every change on Sukra is felt on, and reflected
by, the Earth" G de Purucker says "It is perhaps the most closely
connected with the Earth in a number of ways; and it has been said
that wherever Venus goes, there goes the Earth also, and vice versa"
Nowhere, as far as I can see is the exact realtionship spelt out.
Maybe someone on the network has further information on this subject
to offer? In view of the recent space mission to Venus showing us a
planet wide runaway atmospheric greenhouse effect and desolate
volcanic landscape, can this be in store for us if we follow all that
happens on our sister planet?

Andrew Rooke - Melbourne - Australia
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 00:59:25 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: welcomes and inquiries

 I just got back from a weekend trip and found thirteen new
messages on e-mail, and can't resist making a quick reply before
getting back to work.

To Nancy:

     Thanks for your interest in "Are We Chained to the Past." I
will put a copy in the mail in the next day or so. Yes, I feel
that its message may be even more relevant now than when I wrote
it almost ten years ago--especially for those who are vested in
repressing the past.  But unhappily, they are the ones that
usually miss the point.  One of the greatest spiritual exercises
I know of, is to acknowledge mistakes, make restitution for any
damage that came out of them, find ways no avoid repeating them,
and get on with life.  I think it would be a nicer world if this
exercise became popular.

To Christopher A. Chambers:

     Welcome aboard. I would like to hear about your ideas
concerning meditation, and what it has done for you.

To Jerry Schueler:

     I enjoyed very much your discussion concerning your wife and
experiences with Tarot.  My aunt (now long deceased) used to
practice astrology, and was exceptionally good at it.  She too,
after some forty years quit doing it for people because she kept
finding tragedies.  I wonder how common this is, and if it may be
an inherent fatal flaw in the practice of the occult arts.  I'm
looking forward to time when our paths finally cross, as I
suspect that we have a lot to talk about.
     Regarding your disagreement with Purucker concerning the
blending of planes--I have always associated this idea with the
concept of planes being made up of subplanes, sub-subplanes etc.-
-thus sort of a holographic model might be an instructive
comparison.  Your quantum model is also interesting as it implies
discreet energy fields.  How would you rectify the two models?

To Andrew Rooke:

     Thank you for bringing up "theosophical astronomy," as it is
an old and dear interest of mine.  I have always called it
"esoteric astrology,"  but what's in a name?  Have you looked at
Purucker's FOUNTAIN SOURCE OF OCCULTISM?  I feel that it is the
most fascinating and exciting exposition on the subject that I
have ever seen.  There is a chapter on Kosmocrators that
discusses the relationship of the sacred planets to the Earth,
and suggests to me that the key to this relationship of Venus to
the Earth, concerns a relationship of Venus to our own higher
principles.

To Eldon:

     Over the years, I have grown into the conviction that those
"psychic powers" that are commonly experiences (i.e. empathic
communication, telepathy, clairvoyance, pre-cognition etc.) are
more concerned with our animal rather than our spiritual nature.
Have you run across anything to confirm or contradict this?

          Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 10:53:47 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: unmanifest and formless

Jerry S:

When I'm writing this, I don't have any theosophical texts in front of
me to refer to, but I'd say, in my own words, that the very definition
of Monad is a distinct, unique, individual, eternal spark of
consciousness.

I'd divide the principles of consciousness into:

8, 9, 10   -- unmanifest and formless
5, 6, 7    --   manifest and formless
1, 2, 3, 4 --   manifest and with form

Surround the ten, above and below, is *mystery*, about which nothing
can be said, *not even by negation* (e.g. not this, not that ...).
Even the word "mystery" is inaccurate, since that implies it is
unknown, whereas nothing at all is implied ...

I'd call formless existence to be wave-like, as opposed to existence
with form to be particle-like. When existing in a form, there is a
living object that functions as the source of expression of yourself.
What you do originates from this object, it is you, it's actions on
the world are what you do. When without form, there is still an
"objective" world and a place where you manifest and express yourself.
It's just that your self-expression is through direct effects on the
things that are happening, rather than through a form acting as your
proxy.

Any expression of yourself on a plane, any external experiences,
come through manifest existence. The experience of life that transcends
this is through the unmanifest principles. At this level of
consciousness there is no sense of separateness from others, because
there is no sense of others. There is just degrees of the experience
of pure being.

These three degrees, I would say, are:

10 - timeless, eternal, unchanging, your ultimate reality

 9 - eternal but in relation to time, the essential nature, your
     swabhava or purpose that you are ever striving to realize

 8 - rooted in time, different at every moment, unmanifest but in
     relation to the manifest, your monadic essence or karmic
     treasure, the sum total of youself, including much that cannot
     make it out into manifestation in a particular existence

There are elements of consciousness that are experienced, when we
are manifested as well as when we are unmanifest. They can never go
away or cease to exist, because they are beyond "existing".

Even they, though, partake of the "flavor" of the consciousness of
the plane on which we reside, as part of the ten principles of
consciousness we experience on that plane. They have their own
subprinciples that correspond to the seven manifest principles,
and these provide the aroma or flavor of manifest existence.

I would associate these three highest principles with levels of
nirvana, of the experience of unmanifest existence, of the experience
of being beyond space and time. They are ways that each of us, as
individual Monads, experience life.

In passing from one plane to another, whereon we would have ten
principles of consciousness appropriate to that plane, we travel
through a laya center, a dissolving point. Being on one plane at
one moment, then on the other the next moment, would seem like
a "quantum leap", a discrete change of state in our consciousness.
This is because one has made a discrete change, shifting oneself
from one center of consciousness to another.

This is also shown by the layout of our earth chain. There are
certain discrete worlds on the different planes, places where
existence can happen. These are the twelve globes, on seven planes,
half of which are downward-focused or matter-oriented, and half of
which are upward-focused or spirit-oriented. There is not a
continuous spectrum of endless planes and worlds to manifest on.

Even so, the planes blend into each other, although our experience
of them is through the globes, which are at discrete steps of
spirituality. The spectrum of possible consciousness is continuous
although there are but a few, specific points on it where we may
come into being.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:03:51 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Monads

This message is a reply from jcoker

10/18/93  From Nancy

       I am enjoying all the comments -- thanks you guys.

To Sarah --  Do you imagine that ALL enlightenment must be preceded
by a long and painful process?? -- I am wondering about the sudden
enlightenment schools of Zen.

To Jerry S --  I received your comments about Tarot twice -- could you
send the previous message?  I had a similar, though much milder exper-
ience with Tarot and have since put it away.  I still get a great
deal of psychological understanding with Astrology so am still open
to reading charts.

       I'll mail you the xerox from New Leaf.

 Re:  Are Monads Unique?  The question makes my brain cells ache.  In
your illustration you put forward two monads both eternal and infinite.
I think that is philosophically and logically an impossibility -- how
can there be two infinite entities?

To Chris -- Welcome.

To Andrew -- Thanks for the newsletter and your comments on Astronomy.
I'm interested but largely ignorant so I'll be quiet and just read.

I just discovered that in the L.A. area, on Saturdays at noon, on
channel 18, is an ongoing broadcast of the Mahabharatta.  It appears
to be an Indian production, sumptuous costumes (if the cameras don't
get too close) and subtitled.  This past Saturday was the coronation
of Yudhistara.  Sorry about the spelling.  I have forgotten almost all
the Sanskrit I learned.

Question (I asked this before but so many of my first messages bounced
I want to try again.)   A friend mentioned that many past life
therapists she knows are discovering real medical relief from present
afflictions by regressing people.  How do we explain what might be
happening?

Bye.  Nancy
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:00:54 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: approached in the right way

Nancy:

    Regarding the undoing of the "split" in the Pasadena T.S., the
    split that I was talking about was between the E.S. and T.S.,
    originally between HPB and H.S.Olcott in directing the society,
    something that Jerry H-E initially pointed out.

    The split was undone when Long was assuming control of the T.S.,
    then at Covina, when the E.S. was dissolved, and he wrote about
    the esoteric becoming exoteric and the exoteric becoming esoteric.
    The organization was much different after he was through with it.
    The remaining membership did have lodges or an E.S. to belong to,
    but rather were to consider themselves as having a direct
    "partnership" with Long, and presumable through him to the Masters.

    Not being a member, I cannot say much about what happened within
    the organization over the years since then, other than noting
    that lodges have started opening up under the name of "library
    centers" and "Sunrise" started using the word "theosophy" and
    printing theosophical articles again.

    You'd have to tell me again if there is a separate E.S. again
    in the Pasadena T.S. If in the regular activities of membership
    you are required to keep secret your studies and activities,
    and if you consider them a spiritual practice, then I'd say that
    the organization is still an E.S. rather than a T.S. Are you
    permitted to talk openly about things at Pasadena to non-members?
    I don't want to ask you any questions that you are not allowed
    to answer.

    ----

    Regarding endlessly quoting the past writings, there are a
    number of possible uses for quotes. To use stray quotes, possibly
    taken out of context, to add support to an opinion that won't
    stand on its own is not good. It would be a false appeal to
    authority, like a preacher said "God says ..." when he should
    really say "I think, as I read the Bible, that ..."

    Another use of quotes is to express an idea that we have in much
    better words than we can. There might be an exceptional, truly
    inspired passage that is uplifting, poetic, and of remarkable
    clarity. Some passages from "The Mahatma Letters" qualify in
    this regard. But its abuse is to not put things in our own words,
    to become book rewriters rather than people expressing the
    deeper truths from our own understanding. When we don't have
    our own words for an idea, we really haven't gotten it yet.

    Qutoes tend to be fragmentary, not exhaustive, and may have an
    idea concealed under a blind or with a specific slant for a
    particular audience.

    Quotes can be used in a debate, where someone says "this proves
    me right" and another tries to come up with a counter quote.
    In the final analysis, you cannot prove the deeper teachings,
    much less even communicate a simple understanding of them, by
    just telling someone something, by giving them quotes.

    This is not to say that the theosophical classical literature
    is without merit. The opposite is true. It's study is a
    spiritual practice that I would equate to the learning that
    one would find in any valid school of the Lessor Mysteries,
    *if approached in the right way*.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 19:03:47 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hello again!

Hello, Everyone!

     Although I haven't been in touch for awhile, I'm still around.  I
     got behind with my correspondence (and my volunteer work) in
     August and only now am I about to get caught up.

     My mother's body died August 16, and I made a hurried trip to
     Oklahoma for the memorial service celebrating her life and burial
     of the body.  August 24 to 28, my wife, Rauha, and I attended The
     Theosophical Society in America Summer Conference in Wheaton, IL.
     Then we went to the Parliament of the World's Religions in Chicago
     until September 4, and returned home Sep 5.  Altogether, a very
     busy period from the middle of August through the first week of
     September.

     I never expected to be very interactive in this Study Group,
     because of time limitations, but I AM monitoring the very
     interesting discussions.  I print all the messages sent to the
     subscribers list and share them with Rauha, and occasionally with
     others in the Theosophical Society in Oakland, of which we are
     members.  So, even if I have not been a visible participant, I
     have diligently viewed the mail.  Just thought you might like to
     know I'm listening and nodding my head now and then.

to John Mead -

     Are we going to study anything in particular, or will we continue
     free-wheeling discussion?

     Peace,

               Leonard Cole, CompuServe 71664,3642
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 18:58:42 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hypnogogia

to Donald DeGracia -

     msgs 19-Aug-93 and 23-Aug-93 <hypnogogia>  This goes way back in
     time, but I feel compelled to revive the subject.  You said
     <...you can use this state as a spring board into astral
     projections/lucid dreams.>  I have some difficulty defining terms
     and in relating different kinds of experiences that might
     possibly be classed as dreams.  I experience three different kinds
     of "visualizations" that differ from each other and from the
     ordinary wide awake "seeing" of physical phenomena in the world
     external to my body.

     One, of course, is the ordinary dream state during bodily sleep.
     In this state, my body is inactive as to physical movement, and
     the dream images are moving.  In this state, I, rarely, although
     occasionally, can influence or control dream image activity.
     Also, the "scale of view" in this state is usually limited in
     size to nearby surroundings.  Entering this state is involuntary.
     Dream content is always benign.

     A second dream state is what I will term "vivid dream."  This
     appears to be induced by atenolol (tenormin) medication I am
     taking for angina pectoris.  My doctor has reduced the medicine
     strength, and I now rarely have this kind of dream.  It differs
     from the ordinary dream state in that the images are intensely
     graphic, and my body physically moves in concert with the
     movement of my bodily dream image.  Content is characterized by
     high levels of fear and defensive violence, and dream duration is
     very short.  If I don't awaken almost immediately, I invariably
     injure myself by striking or kicking a nearby wall or by throwing
     myself out of bed to the floor.  You can understand why I
     persuaded my doctor to reduce medication strength.  Now,
     thankfully, I rarely have this kind of dream.  It was completely
     uncharacteristic of my day to day life's experiences.  I don't
     want to sensationalize, but this, too, appears to be a dream state.

     The third dream state, if I may call it that, is what you have
     termed hypnogogia.  BTW, where did you find that term?  I have
     looked in my dictionary and the CompuServe encyclopedia and could
     not find it.  I am not an etymologist, but the first part of the
     term, "hypno," seems to suggest hypnotism.  Is this state a form
     of self hypnotism?  For me, it occurs in that strange world between
     full wakefulness and sleep.  I have not been able to willfully
     induce it by <...staring behind the eyes...> as you expressed it.
     It just seems to come of its own accord, and then very rarely.  The
     quality is quite different from the other two states described
     above.  Content is always benign, image quality is very clear,
     and scope includes a wide range, sometimes to a horizon.

     This third state, or hypnogogia, is so uniquely different from the
     first two above that I should perhaps forget about trying to relate
     all three as different kinds of dream experiences and just
     concentrate on hypnogogia for experimentation.

     I would like to know more about your own experimentation and what
     has resulted.  All this in the interest of working on the 3rd
     object of the T.S.

to Gerald Schueler -

     <msg 20-Aug-93 Many theosophists feel that enough has already been
     done (about work on the 3rd object of the T.S.), but I also think
     we need to do more.  But I am not sure that "hypnogogia" is the
     right way to do it.  The reason for my skepticism, is that the
     astral plane is notoriously illusive.>  Hypnogogia may be only
     one of many tools that might be useful in pursuing the 3rd object.
     Frankly, I don't know how or where to start.  Do you think of
     other "right ways to do it"?  I am not setting up contention by
     asking but only asking for expansion of your thoughts on this.

     <msg 22-Aug-93  Dreams SLEEP>  Thank you, Jerry, for the excellent
     paper on the subjects cited.  Although the contents had the "ring
     of truth" in them, I had some difficulty relating the technical
     theosophical concepts to my own experience.  I see no signs "you
     are now entering the astral plane."  For example, if one state
     of "dreaming" I experience can be so profoundly affected by
     medication, how can I know what plane I enter during this state?
     The fact that the experience can be modified by a physical
     substance makes me distrust my own physical or spiritual
     instruments.  Might not substances ingested from other sources,
     e.g., unhealthful food, polluted air and water, etc., cause one
     to experience distortions in the dream (or hypnogogic) state?

     I am sorry that I only have questions and no answers.

     Peace,

               Leonard Cole, CompuServe 71664,3642
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 18:53:40 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: Internet access services

to Donald DeGracia -

     msg 25-Aug-93 <EZ Mail><Internet services access>  I would
     appreciate receiving more information on EZ Mail.  Is their
     charge truly $7 a month for unlimited access with no surcharges
     for connect time?  Do you have modem telephone numbers for
     Berkeley or Oakland, California? Other pertinent information
     would be welcomed.

     I heard a rumor about another Internet access service that charges
     only $35 a year.  Seems too good to be true.  I'm looking into it
     and will let you know what I find out.

     Peace,

               Leonard Cole, CompuServe 71664,3642
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 23:05:06 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: discrepencies

This is from Brenda Tucker.

What prompts people to write books?  Is it that they have a way of
explaining something that is difficult to understand?  Is it that
they wish to realign many paths into one path?  Is it that there
is an inner voice prompting them with information and requesting
that they get the information out and into the hands of those who
are eager and ready to receive it?

If you look at the tenants of theosophy as they were written by
the early participants in the movement, you may notice
discrepencies.  Do you feel that discrepencies shouldn't exist?
Do you feel that one method is not really helpful to people, but
instead that it is harmful to believe and practice along certain
chosen lines of thought?

For some reason people read two authors and became unhappy with
one of them.  People have looked at the historical setting of
theosophy and said I have to take sides, I have to choose one way
or the other, and I have to discuss my understanding of the
differences so that other people may choose to do what I have
done.

What do you think the third object of the society was written for?
Isn't it blatant to condemn to a destiny of defeat an object that
you once signed as being something you supported.  If members of
The Theosophical Society can say to each other, "Don't study the
powers because psychic powers were meant for the earlier races."
then wouldn't it follow that they would also be free to disavow
some portion of the other two objects as well?  When I joined The
Theosophical Society I was fully aware of the risks involved in
stating my ideals alongside those of the many, many, people who
had knowledge of the path of occultism.  I believed that powers
would be a part of the life I was seeking and I chose not to try
to shun powers that might unfold within me as a result of my
meditations or thought-processes, but to join a group that would
quite possibly be experiencing some of the same karma that I was
intent on experiencing in working towards liberation from rebirth.

My ideals were constantly being expanded from my reading in many
different areas.  When an idea struck me as being true, that
didn't necessarily mean it struck other people as being true.  One
important and awesome thought early in study was that you might be
better off, more noble or more true to your self if you gave up
liberation in order to continue serving humanity and by that the
progress of the other human souls might be ensured.

When you read ideas and feel them to be true, is it through some
duty that you feel you must expound your critique of true and
false in this area to others?  Couldn't it do more harm than good
to support some at the expense of the others?  How do you know you
are right?  I felt that the early writers in theosophy were
writing about their firsthand experiences and H.P.B. wrote what she
was told to write by masters.  Isn't this something different than an
analysis that appeals to you?  By stating your own opinions how do
you know you aren't harming the real truth in the literature that
is there for all to read and recognize in their own personal time
and way.

Wasn't the development of powers in Besant and Leadbeater meant
to serve as a sign for all of us who followed that we are capable of
handling this great descent of consciousness?  How can we grow to
handle the world around us better, if we don't use every possible
resource available to us?

Through all of my testing of what I believe to be true, the
supreme test is still ahead.  There will never be an end to the
testing until the day I can say I have reached the realm of adepts
and we are working for the manifestation of the divine plan and I
have taken the initiation which allows for consciousness to
continue in the inner realms without need for birth, karma,
forgotten pasts and a subsequent growth in knowledge.  Meanwhile
there is a certain contentment in finding purpose through the
theosohpical teachings and in ordering my life as best I see it to
the ending of sorrow and the fulfillment of the Divine Plan.

I am so thankful for the teachings on silence so that I can't be
condemned for choosing to love and work along with those who can
find it in their hearts to welcome others as fellow seekers and
fellow students.  How can we write in a way that welcomes all
honest thought and endeavor, respectfully, lovingly,
encouragingly?

Our forefathers may have gone through more personal hells than
we know of in order to make this kind of movement possible, and
I can't ever get enough of "God love them for that."  What can I
do to assist and not become too self-assured of my own place in
the scheme of things?  I don't pretend to have gained for humanity
resources that will expand the currently available theosophical works,
but I do know there's still a place in every human heart for the truths
they are hungry for.  FEED THE HUNGRY with those much loved
and respected truths.

I agree with Leonard.  What do we all want to study?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 23:20:20 -0400
From: Chuck Bermingham <72723.2375@compuserve.com>
Subject: Psychic experiences

Hi there!  My name is Chuck Bermingham, and I'm writing this on Ann'
CompuServe account.

I'm sending this back to let Nancy know we (my wife Ann and I) agree
with you about the two varieties of psychic experience.  I'm also
writing it to see if anything is getting to anyone beyond the List
Server.  We have been able to reply directly to a couple of people on
the InterNet.

I myself have been having spontaneous OBE's ever since I can remember.
No idea why, and no idea how to control them either. although not
though lack of study.)

My wife's a TS member, and I'm what her former guru, Kriyananda,
referred  to as an "atheist mystic".  This should make for an
interesting addition to the group.

Finally, I got a comment from John Mead about the costs involved with
this E-mail. We're on CompuServe, so forgive us if we get selective
about what we accept.

See ya!
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 00:51:31 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Structured discussions

Hi --

I have resisted trying to structure any formal topics.
When the group consisted of less than 7 people it may have worked
to decide and select a topic.  However, with ~25 people the topic
will take care of itself.  I encourage anyone who wants to ask
questions to jump in and ask!  We have a broad selection of people,
personalities, backgrounds, expertise etc.  Please take advantage
of the oppurtunities to learn from everyone and also to share.
Currently, I'm rather enjoying listening, reading, and getting to know
new people with similar yet varied interests.

The only concern I've had is that a couple of people may try to abuse
the oppurtunities for personal "soap-boxing".  However, I think that
theosophists are too vocal and opinionated to ever let this happen :-)

Unfortunately, I have to be somewhat silent until mid-november
due to some work deadlines. After that, I'll probably start
boring people with some ideas I'm developing in meta-Mathematics
relating to Lebesgue measure theory, Quantum mechanics and the
"Ring-Pass-Not".

Some good news ---  The Theos-L library is nearly ready.  Perhaps I can
get Mike G. to try some listserv commands on it as a test to see if
the privs etc. are really setup correctly??  I personally think we
have a couple of bugs, but It may take a while for me to find the time
it deserves to check it out (thoroughly).

I have also found out that we can set up a forum here (similar
to usenet news) called nc.charlotte.theosophy I think we could make it
ftp public accessible (even automatate some feeds).

(Mike G.  --  we need to talk on this I think? I'm not too familiar with
these innards).  Of course, only people with full Internet access
would benefit.  The advantage is that we would have multiple topics
with each in their own "thread".  (send comments to jem@char.vnet.net
rather than the list.)

Welcome to all of the newcomers!  Feel free to introduce youselves
(any short paragraph or two will do!)

Peace --

John Mead

p.s. Nancy --- mail is coming through fine.  you may want to NOT copy
the message you are replying too?  (it seems your mailer puts it
on the end of your messages??)

Birmingham's --  messages are received fine now!  If your Compuserve
bill gets unweildly let me know.  we can find alternatives (usually
about $20 per month unlimited/flat-rate/no-adjustmets is about the
most common. Some cities are really compeititive though and you may
find things like $5 or $10 per month unlimited service).
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:26:29 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Structured discussions

I am one of the newcomers to the group, having recently (last week?)
managed to figure out how to "access" this electronic discussion!  I
thoroughly enjoy this 'interactive' mode of writing/learning about
theosophical teachings.

I am currently reading the 'Secret Doctrine' Volume II and my plan is
to try 'A treatise on Cosmic Fire' bywonderful Alice Bailey after I
finish SD. I have been a member of TSA for the last couple of years
and have recently become a 'Life member (you can perhaps judge my
enthusiasm for theosophy from this).  I have several questions but one
'burning' question that I'd like to raise right now is related to the
reluctance on the part of theosophists to discuss the Alice Bailey
material.  I have read a little bit of both Bailey and Blavatsky and
I find both to be equally appealing.  Are there any receivers of
this message out there who feel similarly?

I'd like to end this 'introductory' piece right now but I hope to be
able to write more, as needed.  Thank you very much to all of you who
continue to donate part of your time contributing to what is available
via this wonderful service!

In Light and Love,

Arvind Kumar (3024 Landershire Ln, Plano TX 75023-8008; Ph 214 997 0613)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:36:10 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: the objects of the T.S.

Regarding the objects of the Theosophical Society, there was originally
one object, something like to promote eastern ideas in the west, and
the three objects that we know of came later on.

These objects were vaguely worded, and were more designed to promote
tolerance and open-mindedness than to require the acceptance of any
particular belief system. The objects allowed people interested in
Theosophy to meet together and study it without having to profess belief
in any of its tenants.

The objects do not tell anyone what Theosophy consists of, they do not
define the approach to the study of the Estoeric Philosophy, they do not
require the direct study of the theosophical teachings. I'm not sure of
their wording in the Pasadena T.S., but know that they are expressed
differently in the ULT.

Take the third object, to investiate the powers latent in man. What kind
of powers are to be investigated? Development at any level increases
the corresponding powers. We can develope the powers of the
vital-astral-physical self, including the power of feeling, empathy,
the senses, the health. We can develope the powers of the mind,
applied to the physical world (kama-manas) or to the spiritual
(buddhi-manas).

The objects of the T.S. are ground rules for participating in it. They
are not instructions from the Masters to us regarding how we should
live our lives. They are to set the right atmosphere for inquirers to
come and experience the study of high philosophy. They could be worded
many different ways. They are not rules for spiritual development.

We study what interests us, what attracts us. We may join a particular
theosophical lodge, or attend a particular class, because the people
in the group and their activities appeal to us. The content of the
study, though, is not necessarily related to the theosophical teachings.
By giving the name "theosophical lodge" or "theosophical study center"
to a group, we have not thereby made its content theosophical. We could
ask what is theosophical? A big question ...

Brenda and I are currently members of the Los Angeles Lodge of the T.S.
Adyar, although because my work takes us away from Los Angeles on
weekdays, we cannot attend meetings. We've brought friends together to
study theosophy in our home, though, with one group meeting in Los
Angeles for about two years, and the other newly-formed one in San
Diego.

It seems better to just get together, invite people, and start studying,
without the formality of chartering a theosophical group under any
particular organization's umbrella.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 11:34:10 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: List Server Results

John,
   I was able to get the list of files in the THEOS-L archive on
listserv@char.vnet.net by sending it a 'index theos-l' message. There
is currently one file called 'archive' which was retrievable using the
'get' command.

However, there were a potential problem:
1) An 'index' command which returns the list of the files in the master
archive returned:
---
Archive: LISTPROC (path: listproc) -- Files:
  info (1 part, 50 bytes) -- Info about the master archive
  summary-of-requests (1 part, 680 bytes) -- List of available requests
       This is a brief listing of all recognizable requests
  example.dat (3 parts, 27, 27, 27 bytes) -- Example file
  service (1 part, 119 bytes) -- System's services file (non-existent)
  931015 (1 part, 10804 bytes) -- Re: Some Comments
  931016 (1 part, 17579 bytes) -- Re: something special
  931017 (1 part, 7219 bytes) -- Test & Hello from a new subscriber
  931018 (1 part, 34634 bytes) -- welcomes and inquiries
  931019 (1 part, 8093 bytes) -- Structured discussions
---
I think the files here starting with 9310xx are THEOS-L messages. Why
are they in the master archive?

Anyway, the list server appears to be working. I'll try building the
'ilp' program and try talking to the list server interactively.

-----------
Mike Grenier   Unisys Government Systems (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 11:50:45 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Quotes

This is from Nancy:

Eldon:  I love quotes, I have 4 very long files of quotes
I have been collecting for years.  I worry though about
looking back to theosophic scriptures almost to the
exclusion of discussing what's going on around us today.
Yes, HPB predicted it, yes she gave us ideas on how to
handle it, still, I'd like to find 20-21st cent ways
of talking about it, instead of 19th.
          I correspond with prisoners who are studying theosophy.
There are some really scarey things that they are practicsing
in those jail cells.  More than one of my correspondents are
visiting other inmates in their dreams to help them.  I can't
quote scripture to them, and if I sound too judgmental or too
negative, they'll ignore me.  I can't get too philosophical with
most of them as their reading abilities aren't that great -- tho
that is an overgeneralisation and a few are college educated.
    Help.
   Are there ways we can discuss these ideas with people who don't
know a monad from a stula-sarira?
Bye.  Nancy.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 13:02:24 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: deeper understandings to come

Jerry S:

Some stray comments on the Monad ...

Two objects cannot be in the same place at the same time. But when we
say this, we're talking about two globe D physical-plane objects,
according to the *current* behavior of physical matter. Two waves can
be in the same place at the same time, to pass through each other.
Special waves, called solitons (I hope I have the spelling right!)
can pass through each other on the ocean, then pull apart intact,
because they have an on-going process of self-feedback that keeps
themselves intact. Astral objects can pass through each other. And
perhaps at some other point in earth's mineral evolution physical
objects could pass through each other as well.

Being in the same location in space, manifesting with an identical
physical form, behaving in an identical manner, all are possible,
to an approximate degree.

At the most objective level of consciousness, there is a distinct
sense of subject and object, a sense of myself and the other. Another
level of experience is in being totally absorbed in the current
situation, still a particular situation, but no sense of me and the
other. The highest level of experience is in being part of the
universal drama of life, with no sense of particular selfhood or
participating in a particular situation. These are all three *modes
of experiencing life*, and do not have to involve the loss of one's
participating in an objective material, particular situation. You
could be standing in front of me and we are talking, and you could
be experiencing life in any one of the three modes.

I would say that even in the dharmakaya mode of consciousness, the
highest, where everything is experienced as unified, and even if one
were functioning solely in a formless, unmanifest state of being, that
althought the sense of separateness has been lost to one's experience,
the fact of separateness has not been lost. There is a paradox of the
unity of life and the external separation of the multitude of life.
Either facet can be experienced in one's consciousness, but the
paradox is not resolved and does not go away, no matter how high and
deep within one goes, for there are still higher and deeper
understandings and experiencings of life to come ...

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 14:13:00 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: tell us something

Nancy:

I'd like to hear about some of the scary practices in jail
and what you tell to prisoners (in a general sense, of course,
not mentioning names, etc.) Perhaps you could give us some
examples of how you discuss theosophy with people who have
trouble reading and are not philosophically inclined.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 13:29:26 -0400
From: Arnold Stoper <astoper@s1.csuhayward.edu>
Subject: Re:  Psychic experiences

To Jerry Hejka-Ekins

     Interested in your ants-on-the-wall psychic experiences. Often,
during my life, in that drowsy transition between asleep and awake, I
have seen a crawling spider of one or another sort on the wall. It's
clear and real as can be, and I think there's always only one. I watch
it for several seconds, and it gradually fades away. (I think I may
have seen ants a couple or so times. No clear memory of that, though.)
But no dissolving walls or people within walls as with you.

Why ants and spiders? Why insects and arachnids? Beats me. (Why not
such wall aficionados as lizards and vines?) I think it was Ingmar
Bergman's film "Winter Light" that had the much-quoted line, "God is a
spider." Might there be an insects-and-arachnids-on-the-wall study
group somewhere?

James T. Anderson (via Arnie Stoper)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 19:25:02 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: CBS Parliament Documentaary

to John Mead -

     <your msg 25-Sep-93 CBS Broadcast of Parliament>  Thank you for
     the program alert.  I spread the word as quickly as possible
     among the Oakland Branch members, and several viewed the program.
     I also taped the program for circulation among those who could
     not view the program when it aired.

     Unfortunately, in the San Francisco Bay Area, the program was
     interrupted by a CBS News Special which lasted about 10 minutes
     to report the then unfolding developments in Moscow.  So, with
     that 10 minutes lost and another 10 minutes lost for commercials,
     the presentation gave only approximately 10 minutes of real
     content.  It is unfortunate that CBS didn't make a professional
     documentary effort for this worthy purpose and create at least a
     1-hour program.  Anyway, thank you for the timely alert.

     Peace -

               Leonard Cole
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 19:30:26 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: TS Tree & Santa Barbara ULT

to Michael Meyer -

     <your msg 24-Sep-93><...Santa Barbara is...the same but differ-
     ent...it IS different, special.  Why, because one (or two) of its
     most prominent members hold a very special place in a "lineage".>
     Is this something you could elaborate on briefly?  I am an Adyar
     TS'er and am generally ignorant about people and organizations in
     other parts of the movement.  Truthfully, I am not all that
     knowledgeable about history and personalities within Adyar and
     its groups.  If information about the Santa Barbara ULT prominent
     members and their role in the TS movement is not confidential, I
     would like to know more.  If sharing the information would, in
     any way, in your opinion, serve no useful purpose, then ignore my
     request.

     Peace -

               Leonard Cole
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 19:31:52 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: New Study Center & Occult Chemistry

to Brenda Tucker -

     <your msg 23-Sep-93>

     Thanks for news about the new study group in San Diego.  I'm
     always interested in activities of other TS groups and what they
     select for study.  I hadn't heard about Spierenburg's compilation
     of books.  Your summary introduction of his THE INNER GROUP
     TEACHINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY was intriguing.  I must get a copy
     and read the full text.  What has been your group's experience
     with the material so far?

     <What are other people reading? Or is the list too long?>  At the
     Oakland Branch, we have a continuing study group meeting Monday
     evenings for 1 1/2 hours.  We are reading together and discussing
     THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A. P. SINNETT, with supplemental reading
     in READERS GUIDE TO THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A. P. SINNETT, com-
     piled and edited by George E. Linton and Virginia Hanson.  We
     have been studying together for approximately 2 years and are
     approximately 75% through the book, progressing in chronological
     order following the order described in the GUIDE.  It is amazing
     what interpretations and insights emerge from a group dynamic
     contrasted with one's reading on one's own.

     <Occult Chemistry.  Well, this is a topic I was very pleased to
     see.  Fractals, too.  I hope we haven't forgotten the content of
     some of the first letters on the board.>  I may have jumped in
     way over my head by mentioning this as a study interest.  I am
     interested in science in a general way, but my education and
     paid-employment life's experience have been in a completely
     unrelated field, the art of business management and accounting.
     I wouldn't know a fractal if I met one on the road.  And,
     although I have a generally hazy idea about scientific method, I
     am not knowledgeable about the technicalities of any specific
     scientific discipline.  So my interest in the TS 3rd object will
     remain a frustration until I become a scientist in some future
     life.

     I enjoy your comments; well written and easily understood.

to Eldon Tucker -

     <your msg 27-Sep-93, subject:  behind the smoke><I would like to
     comment on everything that was going on, if only there were more
     time!!!>  I resonate very strongly with this thought.  How fortu-
     nate that such a literate and creative group of writers and
     thinkers has been attracted to this study group.  While I can't
     begin to become engaged in every topic and thrust of meaning
     expressed, I am learning more (as a matter of insight growing out
     of the discussions) than any other TS activity with which I have
     ever been involved.

     <There are some very profound teachings in Purucker's writings,
     and I've found them to provide me with some valuable keys to
     understanding Theosophy.>  I just want add my own endorsement of
     P's writings to yours.  I participated in the Oakland Branch
     study group study of P's FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ESOTERIC PHILOSOPHY,
     and we developed a high level of respect for his contribution to
     theosophic thought.  From that exposure, we discovered his OCCULT
     GLOSSARY and now use it regularly along with HPB's THEOSOPHICAL
     GLOSSARY.

     Peace -

               Leonard Cole
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 20:18:44 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Western Occultism

Theosophy has been predicted to form the cornerstone of a new
western occultism (by Judge and others). Exactly what this new
western occultism is, is as yet unknown. But I think that the
rudiments of it are already forming. It seems to be taking the
form of a westernized Karma Yoga in which good deeds and moral
development are emphasized and psychic development is devalued.
Certainly at least one of its tenants is that spiritual
development is a long-term effort and that there is no "quick and
easy" path toward spiritual enlightenment. The doctrines of
karma and reincarnation have a prominent place in this new
occultism as well. The Gupta Vidya Model as outlined by HPB in
The Secret Doctrine will also play a part. If nothing else, to
serve as a mental structure or framework for students to help
flesh out the myriad invisible regions that surround us. But the
final form of this occultism (if it ever materializes to the
point of being "final") has yet to be determined.

Most theosophists will agree on the basics of the universe model,
the Globes and Paths of our planetary chain and the flow of
lifewaves around it. Most will agree on the fundamental
doctrines, or "core teachings" left to us by HPB and her
teachers. But precious little has been given out concerning
techniques. Is theosophy to be merely a library of ideas? This
is exactly what Dion Fortune once claimed (she left theosophy to
found The Society of Light and to write occult novels and books
on magic). She said that theosophy provides the theory, while
magic provides the practice (she was a member of the Golden Dawn
school of magic). I will admit that I sometimes find myself
almost agreeing with her. I think that this is because the TSs
emphasize theory more than practice, except perhaps in the sense
of a Karma Yoga that I noted above. Now, traditionally in the
east, Karma Yoga has been viewed as the lowest of the yoga
schools - the easiest and safest to practice, but the slowest to
obtain results (even its strongest adherents admit that many
lifetimes are required). In our fast-paced instant-result
society, its little wonder that the turnover of membership is
high. The question is, what, if anything, in the arena of
practical application can theosophy offer beyond the safe but
long-term gratification of Karma Yoga?

For an example, theosophy emphases reincarnation, and the
literature is very detailed on the mechanics of reimbodiment. G
de Purucker, especially, goes into acute detail on the cyclic
processes of death and rebirth. But he, and everyone else, is
strangely silent on the question of how we go about remembering
our past lives. You can find several books on this subject in
any New Age section of your local bookstore, but nothing by a
theosophist. In fact, G de P takes the tack that such
remembering should be discouraged because it could cause regret
and suffering to know what we did in past lives. While I agree
that remembering past lives is not essential to our current
situation or to our spiritual development, it is exactly this
question that readers/students of reincarnation will ask. The
question then becomes, what techniques could be safely practiced
by students?

Many theosophists practice Raja Yoga, or a form of it wherein one
sits in a certain rock-steady posture and contemplates on
something for a time. I have nothing against this, and have used
it myself on occassion. But the eastern teachings regarding Raja
Yoga are not conducive to western application. I, for one, can't
get into a lotus or half-lotus position, and get headaches from
staring at the tip of my nose. Hatha Yoga is completely
impossible for me (I don't think any TS encourages Hatha Yoga
anyway). The only really effective yoga that I have tried is
Kundalini Yoga, and yes, it is dangerous, and no, I don't
especially recommend it to anyone else. But it has helped me in
a variety of ways and so I am not sorry that I have practiced it
over many years and would probably do it again (i.e., it works
for me, but may not do so for you). The question is, where
should theosophists draw the line? Where does safe practice
become unsafe practice? How unsafe is still OK? There does, in
point of fact, seem to be a direct correlation between the
inherent danger and the effectiveness of practical applications
or yogic techniques. The safest are the least effective. Until
we can devise effective techniques that are safe to use (and I
don't know of any, else I would be the first to offer them), I
suspect that this will remain an open issue.

                                         Jerry S.

PS. Nancy Coker wanted to know why past life regression has
seemed to be so useful in handling some psychological
disturbances. One answer lies in the fact that what we are today
is the product of what we were in the past. Our past, our sense
of history, gives us a sense of having roots that (rightly or
wrongly) can help add some structure (and therefore rationality)
to our otherwise seeming chaotic lives. But because of
unpleasantness, or some other reason, we often will block out
particularly troublesome memories (those that lack integration
into our current worldview). While this serves as a balm to our
wounds, it is a double-edged sword, because another part of us
will demand to know what was going on during that missing time
period. Health, at least mental health, demands memory of the
past. As long as we are embedded in time, we need a sense of our
past and of our future. In the same way, sooner or later, as we
theosophists tread the Path, a part of us will demand to know
what was going on during those past lives. When this still small
voice gets loud enough to conquer our fears, the necessary
memories will pour out automatically into our awareness and the
healing process will begin. Full Adepts are always in touch with
their past lives.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 11:07:44 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Archives...

Hi --

The Theos-L archives will be operational soon.  Everything seems to work
but there is some file management that needs to be done (setup
the initial files with correct names and places etc.).

If anyone has articles they want to make available for public access to
the entire list please send the to me at jem@char.vnet.net

I hope to be able to spend a few hours this weekend setting up
the log files, adding the Theos Help file (uuencoded version
for mail access),  and Michael Meyers short essay too.

After this is done,  I'll send out instructions and directories etc.

Peace --

John Mead

p.s.to -  Mike G.  Thanks for your help!
The odd files in the ListProc are this months daily Theos-l log files.
I'll be combining them each month and putting them into the Theos-L
subdir.  The theos-L subdir has a HUGE file of the archives in it
which can be retrieved (it gets sent in several (~13) parts of about
65K each.  The daily archives are in Listproc by date.
i.e. Oct 17 1993 is in file 101793 etc.
I'll break the theos-l archive file (~13 parts)
up this weekend. (if you want to "get theos-l archive" it
and then break it up... into separate months like ts0893.log
(Aug 1993 Theos-l Log file)  I would be gratefull! (I got
the impression you were willing to help !!  :-)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 10:34:02 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: know and be

We're having a good discussion on the nature of Theosophy, paranormal
powers, and the spiritual path. Here's my latest comments:

----

I'm not sure that I'd call Theosophy just a library of ideas, since
its deep study constitutes a spiritual practice that awakens the
highest and most noble parts of our natures.

The study of Theosophy is a practice, and it is more real than the
visiting, in our current state of human development, of other planes.
We do not become something by visiting a place, we change by changing
ourselves. A bird that happens to fly through a human library will
not thereby gain human knowledge. There is a long sweep of evolutionary
unfoldment, and it is hastened by the awakening of additional faculties
of consciousness, and by the deepening of the consciousness that we
have, not by escaping the physical plane or perceiving the physical
side to other planes. *Where we are* is not as important as the fact
of the self-unfoldment of consciousness.

I would say that it is possible to hasten our spiritual evolution
through the study of Theosophy, whereas the cultivation of psychic
capabilities is a distraction at best, and often a hinderance. I
don't think that the acquiring of paranormal powers is a something
new; we've had great powers in previous races, they come and go in
a cyclic manner; they are one phase of the experience of life in the
personality. The life that we have in a particular subrace, including
the senses and powers, are regulated by, I would say, the Dhyani
Chohans. Their presence, the times when they naturally occur, their
ease of use all come when a particular type of learning in the
personality is needed. Their absence likewise comes when different
types of learning are needed.

Psychic and magical powers, powers to perceive and control our
external environment, on whatever plane, were developed in us before
even reaching the human kingdom. The powers we are developing, and
we've only made a start at it, are the powers of mind.

I'm not sure where the dividing line between safe and dangerous
psychic development lies. In medicine, there is the concept of
prescription and non-perscription drugs. If you're a doctor and have
had medical school training, you can write prescriptions; otherwise
you're left to the guidance of your doctor and may only on your own use
non-perscription drugs.

When you acquire paranormal powers, what part of your nature are you
developing? Certainly not the spiritual. Do they come along with
spiritual development? I'd say not, since their possesion is a cyclic
attribute of personality and not a permanent, lasting, evolutionary
change.

I'd say that the western occultism that may come from Theosophy will
center around the study of the original teachings. And the popular
religion to come will center around a few core ideas of Theosophy
wedded to popular thought, with perhaps a bit of astrology, the Tarot,
Jungian psychology, astral projection, magical practices, and Buddhism
thrown in. The religion will contain much that is popular and touches
people in an easy-to-see, immediate way, and like the other religions
be an exoteric blind for the esoteric truths.

When comparing Theosophy to Jungian psychology or the various religions
of the world--say Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism--it is possible to
draw analogies and enrich one's understanding of the teachings to a
degree. It's important to do this with care, though, since not
everything in every religion or philosophy is correct. When drawing on
quotes from the religions of the world in "The Secret Doctrine", HPB
would sometimes say "we agree with this", but also at times say "we
don't agree with that" ... Theosophy provides a key to help the student
separate the good from the bad, it does not say all is good, believe
everything, everywhere.

We can, say, talk about the different schools of Yoga, the Tree of Life,
the Tibetan Deities, Jungian archetypes, or near-death experiences.
We can apply keys to understanding them provided us by Theosophy.
There is much to be learned in them. But I would say that we can be
misled when we use them to teach us Theosophy.

Take Tibetan Buddhism.  We can go to it and see certain ideas as
theosophical. Further exploring Buddhism, we may find related Buddhist
ideas that we can apply back to Theosophy. We are using Buddhism as an
analogy to Theosophy and extending the analogy to see if we can learn
something more. And it may very well prove true and we may have new
understandings. But it could also prove to be a false analogy.
Discrimination is needed and each idea must be tested against the
teachings to see if it has the ring of truth to it.

If Theosophy says that we are reborn, and another philosophy that we
might study also says we are reborn, there is an analogy. But if the
other philosophy goes on to say that we are reborn as butterflies,
we'd reject that idea as inconsistent with the teachings. (Excuse the
poor example here, it's the only one that happens to occur to me at
this moment as I'm writing this.)

I'd say that going after the highest and most spiritual in you is the
most direct route, the quickest approach to spiritual evolution, where
the personality is maintained but not given too much importance. Forget
the senses and go deeper within, *know* and *be*, don't just see,
touch, and taste life.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 10:58:55 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: know and be

Eldon writes:
>I'd say that going after the highest and most spiritual in you is the
>most direct route, the quickest approach to spiritual evolution, where
>the personality is maintained but not given too much importance. Forget
>the senses and go deeper within, *know* and *be*, don't just see,
>touch, and taste life.

Your words always touch something deep within.

While we have many lifetimes to grow in our quest, there are also many
distractions. For me, having a wife and 3 small children combined with
my work seem to take the vast majority of my time away from focusing
within. There is one's dharma.

To what degree should one disappoint the expectations that others have
placed on you in order to persue the inner spiritual SELF? Is it
selfish to persue the spiritual life if such a commitment takes time
away from one's other commitments? Or is it that a spiritually evolved
person is so much more effective in helping others that a spiritual
life should be persued first - i.e. Seek ye first the kindom of GOD.
Any comments?
-----------
Mike Grenier   Unisys Government Systems (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:14:19 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: replies

say that there is no really separate E.S. at this time, and yet, we
are asked to keep certain things secret, until their time ripens so to
speak. I can't say what all the others do, but I know that many
definitely do approach each task as a spiritual practice.

Bravo Brenda. I'm well aware that many of my ideas are (as many order
forms state) subject to change without notice.  I don't think that we
have to choose which version of history we like or don't like, but
neither should it be a problem that some people do want to choose. The
tricky part is not only to learn HOW to discriminate but to learn WHEN
to. Seems to me that the spirit is all encompassing, so being spiritual
must mean being all inclusive, yet developing awareness and manas
demands learning to differentiate one from the another.  Do you
imagine that the act of choosing is an inherently materialistic one?

HEADINGS MAY HELP ORGANIZE GROUP THINKING/READING:

Regarding the idea of studying as a group. What do you think about
using headings on our messages to indicate topics. That way people can
easily tell if they want to skip the conversation. If several want to
study figs, each discussion about figs could be headed FIGS, and all
the date lovers will be well warned. Perhaps it would help keep costs
down.

To John:  I don't know why EIS recopies the original message, perhaps
they always do that in REPLY mode.  I'll stop using that option.
Thanks for the feedback.  I did not get Arvind Kumar's message correctly
-- the lines went off to oblivion.  Can you or he resend?

Arvind -- I will be near Fort Worth in a few days -- where is Plano??

PASADENA OBJECTIVES:

Dear Eldon:  Since you mentioned it, the objectives of TS Pasa:

to diffuse among men a knowledge of the laws inherent in the universe;

to promulgate the knowledge of the essential unity of all that is, and
to demonstrate that this unity is fundamental in nature;

to form an active brotherhood among men;

to study ancient and modern religion, science, and philosophy;

to investigate the powers innate in man.

Seems to me the more we investigate the less eager we'd be to try to
develop the strictly psychical ones.  Education changes what we vote
for  -- Isn't it true that the more educated families have less
children . . . . .

        CORRESPONDING WITH PRISONERS:

Regarding some of the prisoners that I worry about. Several are
extremely psychic and have had access to a lot of material on Wicca
which gives them special rituals and meditations to do. (The Wiccans
offer courses, newsletters and apparently lots of support to inmates
to help them get through the day.)

While deep in meditation, one of them discovered?? a secret
organization called "Brethren of Light" a spiritual organization that
comprises the "highest initiates in our cosmic system."  It is a
hierarchical order headed by Urgaya or the OLDMASTER.  There are 12
adepts, 72 wise men, 360 masters etc.  He wants to become one of the
brethren and wanted to know if I could help him.  Two others go and
visit other inmates in their astral bodies to counsel them and teach
them esoteric secrets.  Most of them are into heavy meditation.  One
of them started writing love poems to me after my introductory letter
to him because he is certain he has met me in a vision and has fallen
in love.  I try to handle all of them very gently.

My frustration at not having 20/21cent language is aimed at myself,
not anyone else.  I have already lost touch with two correspondents
through counseling against gaining psychic powers.  One no longer
writes, one writes but self-edits.

I hope that as we corespond about theos. principles, and try to see
them in action, that a natural basis for discussion will develop.

Did you ever see Reefer Madness?  I want to avoid the heavyhandedness
of that kind of presentation.  Really, why should the prisoners
believe anything I have to say?  They're surrounded by bars,
authorities, & rules and have found a hole in their heads to escape
thru -- how would we expect them to react to a letter with more don'ts
in it?  Their experience is no match for my warnings.  I doubt that
any single letter of mine would have much effect, I am hoping that if
I am very clear on theosophic principles and non-judgmental in
attitude, that I can keep the communication going long enough to
clarify some of the basic ideas of theosophy.  One of the difficulties
is that they are likely to write what they think I want them to say
-- an ultimately self-defeating and time-wasting situation -- if I get
too directive an attitude.

Not all are like that though, a very sweet letter came in today from a
very normal sort who just wants to correspond with fellow seekers.

        Bye. Nancy.

I tried to put this in ascii first but it prints out as garbage
on my screen. I will send it, please let me know if it looks
like garbage when it gets to you or not.  Thanks.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:09:13 -0400
From: mlevin@jade.tufts.edu
Subject:  Theosophy and science

Hi all -

   Its great to have discovered you all. I am new to this list, so if
I ask things that have been discussed to death, please let me know.
I have been interested in Theosophy and related issues for a long
time. Specifically, I would like to hear from people who are
interested in interfaces between Theosophy (and/or occult teachings in
general), and modern science. Here are some areas that I am interested
in (just notes and ideas, more than coherent questions):

1) biology - etheric body, chakras, prana, etc. I work in the area of
bioelectromagnetics, and see some possible connections with these
subjects. Is biology missing out by ignoring these areas? Has any
recent work been done by scientists, which touches on this? I have
reprints of a lot of the work done in the 80's and before (Orgone,
Psychotronic devices, etc.), but it seems that this stuff is dying
out. Anyone aware of anything new?

2) cognitive science and philosophy of mind - a good argument can be
made (though you don't get that impression listening to any modern
cognitive science discussions) that physicalism (the belief that
physical matter/energy is all that exists) is insufficient to deal
with the issues of consciousness and cognition. It is not obvious
though that a belief in extra-physical minds is of much help in
resolving some of the philosophical puzzles. How do theosophical
beliefs (such as ontological commitments to "minds", "souls", etc.)
help solve some of the issues that physicalism has trouble with
(for example, intrinsic reference, indexicality, primary
consciousness, etc.)?
also, what about multiple-personality disorder? anyone done a
clairvoyant investigation of what is really going on in those cases?

3) physics - has any progress been made with "Occult Chemistry"? what
about any of the other things in the Secret Doctrine and related works
- does anyone see anything in there "coming true"? Is it time for a
new edition of the (pretty old) "Scientific Corroborations of
Theosophy" by Dr. A. Marques? Specifically, has anyone been able to
get a hold of a copy of "Impact of Theosophy and Science" by A. Kannan
(proceedings of the Theosophy Science Study Group)? I saw a reference
to it, and haven't been able to find it anywhere.

4) parapsychology - where are we to find someone who is able to
reliably see auras (a la Leadbeater's "The Hidden Side of Things")
etc.  for some crucial experiments?

  If anyone is interested in any of these issues, please email me
(mlevin@husc8.harvard.edu or mlevin@jade.tufts.edu). I am currently a
graduate student at Harvard Medical School's Cell and Developmental
Biology program, and have a background in biology, physics,
psychology, computer science, and philosophy.

Mike Levin
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:19:48 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Responses

Arvind.  I have never read Alice Bailey, and have never really
had any desire to do so.  For one thing, her writing style (a bit
pompous)is very hard to follow (I tried once years ago, and gave
up).  For another, I feel that she simply took HPB's ideas and
"elaborated" a bit on her own.  I would rather read HPB.  But I
have heard many people tell me that her stuff is great (including
a high muckty-muck in the Golden Dawn) so I certainly don't feel
free to criticize.  However, I have read several books by R.
Steiner (Anthroposophy) and as far as I am concerned, he simply
Christianized theosophy to the point of it being rather silly.
But to give each their due, many people consider both of them
(ie, Bailey and Steiner) to have been very developed psychically.
Another that comes to my mind here is Dion Fortune whose 'The
Cosmic Doctrine' is very theosophical.  But Fortune is at least
easy to read, and she doesn't make hash of Christianity.

The problem with finding both HPB and Bailey "equally appealing"
is that there are several differences in teachings and in
emphasis.  Which one is right?

Brenda.  I remember you saying that you were not up on Buddhism.
So how come you keep coming out with Buddhist ideas? :-)

Your desire to help humanity rather than "working towards
liberation from rebirth" is called the Bodhisattvic Vow that a
Bodhisttva takes in Mahayana Buddhism.

Leonard.  You are right about there being no signs that "you are
now entering the astral plane."  Probably the only way to be sure
of where you are is to go over your memory of it when you wake.
Most magic schools use symbols.  By giving out or observing key
symbols (which act as signposts) they can test their observations
while undergoing them - not something that everyone can do.  For
example, the Tattva cards each represent a comic element or plane
(the astral plane would be a silver crescent with both tips
pointing upward, for Apas, Water, while the mental plane would be
a blue disk for Vayu, Air).  If you have the conscious ability
while dreaming to hold up a Tattva card and observing it, you can
tell which plane you're on by observing the symbol.  Or, by
concentrating on the symbol for astral, for example, you should
find yourself there when asleep.  One of the problems with
symbols is that they are seldom universal (universal symbols are
archetypes in the classical Jungian sense).  Each magical school
has its own symbols and colors, and so on.  The interesting thing
is that they all seem to work.  This is probably because it is
what you have studied that counts.  Whatever symbols you use
regularly on the physical plane, will carry over to the other
planes.  The same seems to be true with religious symbols.

Modification of experiences on other planes due to chemical
substances in the physical body is possible because of the Silver
Cord or Sutratma that connects our bodies together.  This cord
lasts until death, at which time the psycho-magnetic link between
our bodies is broken and our physical body will no longer
influence our Body of Light.

Nancy.  Thanks for the New Leaf.  The answer to your question
"How can there be two infinite entities?" is this:  there are an
infinite number of infinite entities.  I was using two in my
illustration, but there are an infinite number of monads, each
and every one of which is identical in every way to every other.
G de Purucker says that consciousness centers are geometric
points in the sense that a monad is so tiny it takes up no space.
What he didn't say is that anything that small is also infinitely
large, the two directions, inward and outward, being convergent
at some point outside of space altogether.  Mathematically we can
say
            infinitely small = infinitely large

This concerns space, but the same can be also said for time:

            Infinitely past = infinitely future

Andrew.  I have read Leo's books on esoteric astrology and
enjoyed his concepts.  Like Tarot, I played with astrology for a
few years.  It does, in fact, seem to work; not the predictive
part, which I don't subscribe to, but the idea that planetary
influences are somehow conjoined with your personality at birth
seems to work well.  I used to give readings for people -
personality profiles based on their birth dates - which were
usually rather accurate.  But for predictions, I like G de
Purucker's statement that "the stars impel, they do not compel."

Venus, by the way, is linked in some magic schools to the astral
body or kama.

                                Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:41:12 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: replies

Hi, Nancy,

I am sorry you did not get the complete text of my previous message.
I am myself quite new at this and wonder what I may be doing wrong,
perhaps I'll learn with time. I am sending your message with this
reply so you can see how your original message looks by the time it
gets to people on the network!

Plano is about 40-50 miles away from Fortworth, it is a suburb of
Dallas on the Northeast side.  If you tell me where you are going to
be I can give you directions on how you can get to where I am or
perhaps how and when we can get together, if it is possible at all!
There are a number of theosophic/Alice Bailey groups in the D-FW area
a nd I"ll be glad to put you in touch with them.

With all the best/Arvind  PS. Pl feel free to call me during ofc hrs
at 214 9970613 and at 214 867 0101 otherwise, if I can be of any help
in any way/ A
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:29:23 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Theosophy and science

Hi,

This is a quick response from someone who has also joined the network
only a week or so ago!  It does feel like home in a sense!

Are you aware of Sylvia Cranston's recent biography of HPB (available
thru TSA) and also a book (I think it is called 'Human Aura') by Dora
Kunz, ex-President  of TSA?  The entire last section of Sylvia's book
(100+ pages) is dedicated to a discussion of the influence of HPB's
works in the 20th century, including what science has already accepted
etc. etc. Dora Kunz is a clairevoint (sp?) in the same league as
Leadbeater and her book is full of pictures of auras.

Also, are you aware of 'Prophecy on trial' which is a book detailing
how well the prophecies made in ALice Bailey's books have come true?
This book is available thru Lucis Trust.

Best Regards/Arvind
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 08:55:37 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Theosophy Symbol; T-Shirts

Hi --

Our Charlotte study group is having T-shirts made. The have the
TS symbol on them (on the front, no words though).
Sizes are L & XL.  We are starting with light blue as the
only color.  If anyone is interested,  we can get extras for $10
a T-shirt.  (We run a budget deficit each year with our phone
line and newsletter.  any excess funds will offset those costs).

Peace --

John E. Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 02:05:04 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Theosophy and science (fwd)

Hi to Arvind!!

Thanks for the brief intro.  It is nice to get to know you.

I have not read the HPB book by Sylvia Cranston (yet).  I have a copy,
but it gets loaned out real fast (currently our Unitarian Universalist
minister has my copy).  I'm glad you mentioned the last few chapters.
These will be the first I read now!

regarding Dora Kunz ...  I think her son will show up on our discussion
list soon.  He has the address as well as expressed an interest in
joining.  He is computer literate too.

> Also, are you aware of 'Prophecy on trial' which is a book detailing
> how well the prophecies made in Alice Bailey's books have come true?
> This book is available thru Lucis Trust.

NO!  thanks for mentioning it.  Could you post a couple e.g.?? it may
convince me to get it sooner.  I have several of A.Bailey's books.

My feeling is that different people need different ideas expressed in
different ways at different times for their own individual needs.
It is alot like the various flavors of religions.  all very similar,
yet each a different reflection from yet another facet/viewpoint.
Her books have played an immense role in reaching the more contemporary
people in the US.  Many would never touch _The Secret Doctrine_
but yet immediately dive into her writings (or channelings).

A similar effect I've noticed since moving to NC (in 1990) is that
the Anthroposophy thinking is popular here (more so than classic
HPB).  My guess is that alot of "Born Again" Christians who break
out of the fundamentalist views can relate (more) easily to Steiner.
I think there are several Waldorf schools in NC too.

Regarding Science...  You will find more Scientists on Theos-L
than any other study group (a guess).  The Occult Chemistry work
has been expanded (~1979?) to now include the (it matches well)
standard physics model (elementary particles ala quarks).  The book
which did this was written by Dr. Phillips _ESP of Quarks_.
It is still available from TPH (I think!).  It is clear that we will be
entering an age of the "Scientist-Priest" where the modern practice
of Theosophy and Science become finally interlinked together.
If this does not happen,  then Theosophy will continue to
degradate into a handful of Dogmatic cults (which has been
ongoing for the last few decades).  There are many of us on the list who
are primarily interested in the extension of Mathematics&Physics into
the Theosophical realms.  Hence, the vodoo/taboos against intelligent
occult experimentation will be replaced by clearer boundaries
to distinguish between a growth-related practice vs. outright
foolish experimentation.  The trick is to do this carefully with
both wisdom and respect for Law.

Peace --

John Mead

p.s.  Don DeGracia is very interested in the occult chemistry
work.  he just signed off the list,  but I can send you his e-mail
address if you want?
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 01:06:37 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: vnet changes...

Hi --

The vnet system is going to relocate to a different building
(probably Thursday and friday).  Any mail outages should
be temporary,  and the mail will queue before being resent out.

if you think there are serious problems,  please send mail to me
jem@char.vnet.net  or elfchief@char.vnet.net
We really should notice little change...  just a longer delay
between postings and transmissions.

Peace --

John Mead

Could some one send to me the Pasadena Lodge phone number
and mail address.  I also want the United Lodge phone mumber and
address.

I'm putting together an Archive file for reference.  Any other addresses
and phone numbers would be appreciated.
send to  jem@char.vnet.net
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 23:40:14 -0400
From: "Leonard E. Cole" <71664.3642@compuserve.com>
Subject: replies

to Mike Levin -            <your msg 20-Oct-93 parapsychology - where
       <are we to find someone who is able to reliably see
       <auras...for some crucial experiments?>  I don't know.  The
only person I know who can "reliably see auras" is Dora Kunz (lives
in Seattle, WA), but she now devotes her time to working with health
care professionals.  She is in her 80's and, as far as I know, is not
looking for new outlets for her energy.

to Nancy -   <your msg 20-Oct-93 - . . .please let me know if it
             <looks like garbage. . .>  Nancy, it didn't exactly
look like garbage, but there were some strange symbols at the extreme
left margin on some lines, e.g., "3<" "3" "3R" (ignore the quotation
marks), and everything was double spaced.  Your note at the end <I
tried to put this in ascii. . .Thanks.> was perfect.  Apparently, you
entered the 3-line closing note with different software (?).

to Jerry S. -       <your msg 20-Oct-93 - dreams>  Thanks for your
       comments.  You have given me much to ponder over.  I am not
       sure I can do everything you suggested, but you have given me
       something to reach for.

Peace to all -

             Leonard Cole
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 23:35:42 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: misc.

To Nancy Coker

     Regarding your question concerning people gaining "real
medical relief" from past life regressions, I would like to
express my thoughts.  First of all, whether or not the regression
experience brings relief neither proves nor disproves that the
patient experienced a passed life.  Other explanations are
already available; for instance the patients may be drawing the
material from their own unconscious, which has made the material
unrecognizable through condensation and displacement as we do in
dreams--or through the mechanism of decomposition, used in
mythology.  Condensation is the mechanism of taking a lot of
meaningful but unpleasant or traumatic experiences and condensing
them into one unrecognizable experience or symbol.  An example
might be--lets say that at different times over the past five
years, you; 1. read a disturbing article in the newspaper about a
mass murder, 2. had a disagreement with your boss, 3.
inadvertently knocked over a pile of books ready to go out to be
sold.  Later you might dream of having a china doll of a king
that you brush against and it falls and breaks.  The doll may
represent your boss; brushing up against it and knocking it over
may represent your knocking over the books; the doll breaking may
represent the loss of lives through the massacre.  Though the
three events were unrelated by time or causality, they were still
condensed into a single unique experience, unlike anything in
memory, though the dream may carry the feeling of familiarity.
Displacement is a mechanism where something less pleasant is
replaced by something more pleasant or acceptable.  Most people,
in a public place will ask where the "restroom,"  or the
"bathroom" is, when what they really want in the toilet.  But the
toilet is too specifically suggestive of their intention to
perform an act usually done in privacy, so our language allows us
to displace the toilet for the bath or the swooning couches that
used to be located in them.  In dreams, we may have a character
acting out characteristics of ourselves that we prefer not to
admit that we have.  Decomposition occurs in mythology and works
of fiction.  Several people with different personalities may
represent one person in life whose more complicated personality
is divided up among the several new characters.  In Shakespeare's
Hamlet, Claudius, the Ghost, and Polonius all represent father
figures for the protagonist.
     Therefore, it is possible that the patient is unconsciously
using these mechanisms to create a past life that would have the
cathartic effect of relieving a lot of turmoil.  Or to say it
another way, they unwittingly created a myth to give relief and
meaning to a lot of unresolved problems.
     You may recognize these terms as originating from Freud.
Some people would reject them just because of the association of
his name.  Too bad.  Though many of Freud's ideas have fallen
into doubt, he also had many brilliant ones.  Let's not throw the
baby out with the bath water.
     On another subject: Eldon is referring to an earlier
reference I made (before you got on) to the "split" that occurred
in 1885, when H.P.B. was forced to leave India. As a result, she
established the British Section and the E.S. in London.  H.P.B.
wanted to be allowed to take the Coulombs to court for slander,
when they sold their story of H.P.B.s alleged fraud to a
Christian magazine.  Olcott, felt that it wasn't in the best
interest of the Society and threatened to resign from the
Presidency if she did.  As we know, those unchallenged
accusations led to the Hodgson report which still is used to
discredit H.P.B. and theosophy.  H.P.B. later commented that
Olcott's actions only saved the corpse of the Society, but lost
its soul.  Regarding Eldon's conclusions that the "split" was
"undone" through Long, I would need a lot more clarification
before I could comment upon it.
     Regarding your prison correspondence. My short experience
with this is in accord with yours.  These prisoners' needs are a
lot more basic than a lecture on the seven principles.  I think
the attraction to occultism, has a lot to do with the prisoner's
need to empower themselves, and the means to do so was for one
reason or another denied to them--be it because they are the
damaged product of abusive families, and/or were unable to find a
place in society.  Over two-thirds of the prisoners are
minorities who find self empowerment very difficult in our racist
culture.  If they are sociopathic on top of that, then the
problems become almost overwhelming.  My experience is that they
need to be empowered through a lot a positive regard--not through
lessons in occult practices--which is what so many of them seek.
     On the other hand, I have had prisoners write me for
catalogues, and order quality literature such as Plato and
Emerson.  So they aren't all in one bag either.

To Leonard Cole/Donald DeGracia
     I've looked in my dictionary of clinical terms, and also
could not find "hypnogogia."  However, "hypnagogia" is there and
simply pertains to the act of falling asleep.  Perhaps this is
the term Donald intended.

To Brenda Tucker
     Taking from your statement: "If you look at the tenants of
theosophy as they are written by the early participants in the
movement, you may notice discrepancies. Do you feel that
discrepancies shouldn't exist? Do you feel that one method is not
really helpful to people, but instead that it is harmful to
believe and practice along certain chosen lines of thought?"
     Sounds like an important set of questions to me.  But to
find answers, I think we need to first sit down and
systematically identify what these "discrepancies" are.  Then we
can evaluate them.
     In another statement you say: "By stating your own opinions
how do you know you aren't harming the real truth in the
literature that is there for all to read and recognize in their
own personal time and way."  My response is that we don't know
for sure.  That is why we need to be careful when we express
opinions.  If our opinions are considered by people to be
authoritative, then we have an even deeper responsibility to
assure that they are fair and correct, and stated with the right
motivations.  It is said that in Pythagoras' mystery school, new
students were not allowed to speak or express opinions for a year
or more.  Seems to me that this precaution is germane to the
issue you have raised.

To John Mead
     I'm looking forward to being "bored" by metamathematics. I
hope you can put it into a language for us math dummies to
appreciate.
     Seems that some people want to focus on one topic.  If we do
that, I'm afraid that some people will be left out who may not be
interested in that area.  When we planned TAN (Theosophical
Action Network) on Peacenet, we had a mechanism to divide the
conversations into categories.  From hindsight, I think it was a
mistake, as things became unduly complicated. I personally found
it a major trauma every time I tried to find my way around the
ever growing labyrinth of topics.  Therefore, I feel that the
present structure is the best one.


To Arvind Kumar
     Welcome aboard.  I have very closely read Alice Bailey's
Autobiography, and less closely some of her other books,
Particularly ESOTERIC ASTROLOGY.  I would be very interested in a
comparative discussion of Blavatsky and Bailey's writings.  But
my purpose would be to compare the writings to see where they
agree and/or don't agree.  For me, I find Blavatsky more
appealing than Bailey, and would have to come from that bias.  If
you are comfortable with that, I'm ready to play.


To James T. Anderson
     My description of "ants on the wall" was meant to be
descriptive--not that I thought I saw ants on the wall.  When I
mentioned the incident to a woman I studied with for eighteen
years, who was very psychic, she suggested that I was seeing the
molecular structure of the wall.  This would have also been an
apt simile, but not necessarily what I was really seeing.  When
the experience involuntarily repeated itself when I was in my
late teens or early twenties, I did for an instant think I was
seeing "crawling ants,"  until I remembered (or recognized?) the
phenomena from my past.  I think this distinction is important,
because it shows our tendency to attribute a more normalized
explanation to things we see through involuntary psychism.  When
I willfully dissolved the wall as a child, it never occurred to
me that I was seeing ants.  But when the same phenomena was
involuntary and unrecognized, my imagination for an instant
substituted ants as the most plausible explanation of what I was
seeing.  As to why ants and spiders, my guess is that whatever we
are seeing have bug-like motions.
     It looks like we have already started an insects-and-
arachnids-on-the-wall study group.


To Jerry Schuler
     As you say, Karma yoga may be the lowest of the schools in
India.  Though it doesn't excite many people in this country
either.  Altruism just doesn't go very well with the goals of
capitalism, though great karma yoga people like Mother Theresa do
get a courtesy applause.  H.P.B. was pushing both jnana yoga and
karma yoga.  The jnana caught on with the popular set, but I've
also met many people in theosophical organizations that got the
message and also are dedicated to individual practices of karma
yoga.  Magic is also a path, but as you suggest--less safe.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 11:16:36 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: <none>

Jerry S.,

Thanks for your comments on past lives. WHY should memory
be so important.  I understand that getting conscious
is what we are all about, but lots of times I have
realizations that seem important, yet nothing much changes.
Why should suddenly remembering be enough to effect
a change?  Is it dangerous to try to remember?

       The message I did not get from you had something
about homeopathy in it.  Your comment about the dangerous
path being more powerfully effective agrees with the principle
of homeopathy -- that which causes disease cures disease -- if
it doesn't cause much harm, it doesn't cure much either.

Nancy.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:38:05 -0400
From: Dewey Val Schorre <val@netcom.com>
Subject: Glad to join your list

        Last Saturday I met Eldon Tucker and his wife Brenda at the
Krotona School of theosophy and they told me about this electronic
study group. I raced home at noon and sent my request to join the
group. It keeps me busy just reading the daily mail, but I am really
enjoying it. Eldon had the last two months of mail on a floppy which
he let me copy onto my Macintosh.

        I am a retired computer programmer living in Ojai, CA.  My
main hobby these days is writting theorem proving programs in
Prolog, which is the same thing that I did for a living when I was
working for Unisys. I got onto the inter-net because there are
several mailing lists about theorem provers.

        I am looking forward to discussions relating Theosophy to
science and mathematics.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:36:33 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: different worldviews

The purpose of the Theosophical Movement is to stem the tide of
materialism and found the cornerstone of a new popular religious
philsophy. It was not to release keys to occult powers and practices.
I don't think that it was intended to found a school of applied magic.

HPB used phenomena primarily for its shock value, to help people
pry their minds loose from the rigid materialism of the day. She
did not write training guides. Her teachers refused any demonstration
that would be conclusive, like bringing the current issue of "The
London Times" to India via apportation, because it was not their
intent to interest people in developing powers.

It is taught the the wisdom and experience of humanity is preserved
as a living tradition among the Mahatmas. It is their knowledge that
is at the forefront and every day it advances. Western science is
transitory, the learning of a subrace, and will in its due time be
lost and forgotten.

While it may be true that there are bits and pieces of information
in "The Secret Doctrine" or other theosophical texts that may provide
a hint at some physical truth not yet discovered by science, the
presence of the information is incidental, an accident, and not the
intent of the works. Theosophy won't be accepted as any more real--the
philosophy, that is--by uncovering these bits of information; people
will either see something there or they won't, it's a matter of
readiness, not of proof nor of gaining scientific recognition.

We are told of a guardian wall that protects humanity from outside
influences. As individuals, we have the same effect, with most of our
karma dammed back in a lifetime so that it all does not come forth at
once and destroy us. We are protected against harmful outside
influences. This includes the intentional withholding of knowledge of
the occult arts, which would lead, for most people, to sorcery,
because they are not morally and spiritually perpared. It also
includes the limits put on our senses, reining in what we are able
to perceive, so that we can concentrate on the learning tasks at
hand.

It's true that as exceptional individuals, a few of us can pass beyond
these protections and learn and do more. But the protection holds for
humanity in general, and I would expect that in the role of safe
guarding humanity, that the Masters would oppose any efforts towards
promoting a general, working knowledge of the occult sciences. Any
real knowledge given out would be to individuals pledged to secrecy.

These views come from a different worldview that found in the
Besant/Leadbeater writings, so we are talking about some fundamental
differences in view about how life works, what really exists, and
what is going on. These are fundamental questions of philosophy.

Is it more real to discuss the meaning of karma, or to talk about the
particles that make up the hydrogen atom? It is more real to see a
psychic image before the eyes or know in the mind a brilliant idea?
Are there higher faculties of knowing than sense perception or
thought?

Coming from one worldview, there's western science as the champion
of human knowledge, with people with psychic and magical training
taken from their theosophical studies and personal practices, these
people leading science. The other worldview takes the philosophy as
more important, and looks to deeper mysteries behind it.

You might ask what do you *do* with Theosophy if it's only a
philosophy to read and study? It depends upon which book you read
how readily you take all it has to offer. Some books may be good for
a single light reading. Others definitly are not. You are working
on learning that is *ahead* of our time, rather than learning that
appropriate to our present subrace. You are helping cultivate and
nurture faculties that are higher than thought, even though they are
apparently dormant at the present. And you are progressing
spiritually by focusing your mind and heart on things spiritual.

----

In "theos-l", I think that a discussion of the teachings, like on the
real meaing of karma can co-exist with psychical and magical
information and experiences. I'll enjoy reading both types of
material.

The important thing to remember is that we are talking two different
worldviews. In one, it might seem that I say "taboo to scientific
progress"; in the other, it might seem that I say "avoid psychism and
follow the spiritual." The worldviews come from different assumptions
about how life works and our place in it. It is okay for both to
co-exist on "theos-l", but you have to interpret what is said in the
context of the worldview of the person speaking ...

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:37:54 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Personality

DON
I am sorry to hear that Don has left the study group.  I really
enjoyed our discussions.  I think that Don has a real spirit of
youthful optimism that we need and I for one will miss.  I hope
that it wasn't anything that I said.

SPIRITUAL PATH VS FAMILY
We are all faced with choosing a spiritual path vs a family, and
most have chosen family.  Mike's question, "Is it selfish to
pursue the spiritual life if such a commitment takes time away
from one's other commitments?" is a good one, with no easy
answer.  I have felt guilty many times because I spent time
studying theosophy or other related subject rather than doing
something with my children or wife.  My books alone have taken
many hours away from my family.  I have tried to divide my time
evenly, but I will admit that it is difficult (especially with a
full-time job), and we much each do the best we can.  Mike also
asks, "Or is it that a spiritually evolved person is so much more
effective in helping others that a spiritual life should be
perused first" - to which my response is absolutely not!  Raising
a family and sharing your life with a spouse is more than
"helping others."  Having a family demands time, and sharing of
experiences, and of taking on responsibilities and commitments.
Years ago I read a fascinating book called SIDDHARTHA.  It is
about a man, a contemporary of the Buddha, who becomes
spiritually enlightened.  He has to raise up a child.  It turns
out that he was an awful father, albeit loving and gentle, mainly
because he was not always there when the child needed him and
because he could not be a discplinarion.

THE PERSONALITY
The following is a bit of science, a bit of theosophy, and a bit
of my own.  I offer it as a way of answering a question raised by
Nancy as to the importance of memory:

Why is a sense of the past important?  WHY is memory important?
I think that it has to do with the personality, what it is, and
how it works.  First of all, let me say that I agree with Jerry
H-K, about Freud.  Freud's ideas about defense mechanisms, for
example have certainly proved true over the years.  I have
elsewhere noted the similarities between his id, ego, and
superego with the astral, mental, and causal bodies of theosophy.
Today there are hundreds of psychology schools.  Each was founded
by individuals who discovered methods that worked for them.  Most
psychologists and counselors today are eclectic, taking a little
from here and a little from there, and basically using whatever
works (I advocate this approach with spiritual/occult studies and
practice).  I personally lean toward Jungian psychology.  But I
realize that Jung does not have the absolute word (I recommend
Thomas Cleary's brilliant new translation of THE SECRET OF THE
GOLDEN FLOWER with commentary on some of the pitfalls and
limitations of Jung's interpretations).  Jung taught that the
psyche is like the body; composed of various interrelated organs
that all work together.  The psyche, like the body, has a genetic
or historical aspect - the collective unconscious, a psychic
Source that is shared by everyone.


Modern psychology is divided about the personality, but several
new schools of thought see it as a set/complex of relationships
rather than as a psychic-organic "thing" in the traditional
Freud/Jung sense.  What we are, according to these schools,
depends on how we relate to others.  Modern psychology also
recognizes the duality of genetics (internal influences) and
environment (external influences) - that both are necessary and
that both play important parts in determining who we are.  The
first few months of a child's life are probably the most
important in anyone's whole lifetime, because how an infant's
needs are met will preset his or her personality characteristics.
The basic relationship between infant and primary care giver has
been found to be an absolutely essential key in a child's later
development - how the child relates to others throughout his or
her entire life.  Erickson calls this first developmental stage
"trust vs mistrust" because a child will either learn to trust
others or not to trust others in its first two years of life.
In fact, modern psychology has looked into the prenatal stage of
the neonate and has determined that at least some of a child's
personality characteristics are determined prior to birth.  Of
course theosophists would see this as obvious, since they are
carried over from past lives.  Anyway, the idea is that some of
the personality of every human being is genetic (from past lives)
while some is environmental (karma).  And we are all a mixture of
the two.  Even Jung realized that the personality, like the body,
changed over time.  Buddhists have used this fact to demonstrate
that the ego is a "social fiction" with no suchness.

With all of this in mind, who are we?  Our personality is as
fragile and changing/growing as our physical body.  Yet through
all of the changes, we sense that there is a current of stability
residing somewhere within it - our sense of identity.  Yes, this
body is changing, but it is "my" body.  I was born in such and
such a year in such and such a town, and so on.  Mental health
demands this sense of continuity.  Discontinuities are always
unhealthy.  They threaten our sense of identity.  Multiple
personalities are one type of such discontinuities.  They are, in
fact, the result of one of Freud's defense mechanisms.  When life
becomes so incredibly intolerable, the personality will split in
an effort to dissociate from the unpleasant event.  For example,
psychology now knows that virtually every child that is sexually
abused will have multiple personalities as a result of coping
with the abuse.  In the old days, we would have called such a
person possessed.  Now we say that a person has multiple
personalities.

Our personality is the direct result of our inherent desire for a
sense of identity.  Our monadic essence is unitary, existing
above our planetary chain of 12 globes.  Its manifestation in
spacetime (ie, on any Globe of our planetary chain) is dualistic
- having a self and not-self, or sense of I vs a sense of other.
These dual polarities of subjectivity and objectivity are
cemented together by Fohat as an active intermediary.  The Self
or subjective side of our dualistic nature demands a sense of
identity.  In the same way, our not-self (everything not included
in our definition of self) demands definition.  This desire for
definition leads the monad down the chain along the Arc of
Descent.  As the not-self or Other is further defined, it is seen
to contain other selves, and thus a host of monads sweep together
through the Globes in the form of a lifewave.  They form
agreements together as their definitions are mutually accepted or
rejected and this produces a collective karma between each
lifewave.  As the descent continues below the Abyss, definitions
take on material form.  Thus we find ourselves on Globe D with a
subjective sense of identity that perceives an objective world.
Both seem to be continuous and real.  But in fact both are
changing and temporary (changing/temporary and continuous/
permanent are themselves dualities).  The point is, our
subjective side demands continuity in order to adopt a sense of
identity which, in turn, is needed in order to function on Globe
D in a meaningful way.  The vehicle by which this demand is
carried out is memory (which is probably fohatic in nature).

Memory is the cement that holds our fragile personalities
together.  What happens when we lose our memory?  We become
dysfunctional, at best.  Life goes on, because life doesn't need
memory.  Consciousness doesn't need it.  The body doesn't need it
either (because it has its own).  But society does, and without
memory society, at least as we know it, would soon crumble.  Like
many Zen Buddhists have pointed out, the personality is a social
fiction, created by society so that we may function together in a
meaningful way.  It is, in short, part of our collective karma.
It is how we relate to one another.  It disintegrates during the
so-called second death.  And a whole new personality will be
built up during the next incarnation.  Thus the importance of
memory.  And just as the personality needs memory in order to
relate meaningfully with others during any one life, so the
Reincarnating Ego needs memory of past lives to make its cyclic
passage through the planetary chain meaningful.


SUBTITLES
Nancy, I am taking your advice and using subtitles in this
message.  Is it any help?

                              Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:37:16 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: T-shirt info...

Hi --

regarding the rather strong response about the T-shirts...
1) 100% Cotton
2) Light Blue
3) Sizes XL and L (Possibly Small and Medium too)

I think if you send me (jem@char.vnet.net) e-mail stating quantity,
size, and postal address; then I'll send them out as we get them in.
After you receive them, then you can send the $10 + postage.
I'll bring the question up with the T-shirt committee
and see if it's ok.  The first orders should be in (Charlotte)
by Wed next week.  We want to see the first few couple dozen before
we actually put something in the AT (if they let us). Quality control
etc.

The symbol has the Snake outlined, one of the triad's outlined, and
the Swastika is "smoothed" to avoid the sharp angles (rather like the
whirling of Fan Blades.  The South has alot of active white
supremists, so we wanted to avoid the exacting/angular look of the
swastika).

Our study Center is going to have a Saturday picnic with
T-shirt paints to fill in some of the outlined shapes with colors.
This allows some freedom of expression etc.  A few of us want to keep
the colors somewhat standardized (or limit the selections) in order to
avoid any gross metaphysical mistakes. :-)    Our Charlotte TS
group is overly creative,  so we may end up with some strange
Shock-ras !! The shirts look really good just as they are too.

Peace --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:37:29 -0400
From: "Jessica L. Coker" <jcoker@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: <none>

to Eldon

Thanks for your example of a bird flying thru a library -- it's
perfect.  But I may have a question on your point that paranormal
powers don't come along with spiritual development.  If you mean
that paranormal powers developed in this lifetime by the personality
don't adhere to the individuality and are therefore temporary, I
agree.  If you mean that spiritual development doesn't include
paranormal powers, then I don't follow...???

To Jerry S.

I still don't understand multiple infinite entities. If one entity is
infinite, where can the second entity exist, except within infinity?
And therefore unless its occupying all the planes exactly as the first
entity, it must be less than infinite. Seems to me these monads
must be relatively infinite.

to Jerry HE

Thanks for your comments on condensation and mythmaking -- I really
got a lot from the idea of condensation.  But why is remembering
so powerful?  Do you suppose this is material that is desperately
trying to come into conscious awareness, and that the hypnotic
or relaxed state is just what is needed to pierce the veils?

Sorry we missed you last week.  Thanks for the info on
Jessica.  She's getting better every day.

I correspond with several prisoners who are extremely well
read and willing to examine new ideas.  I wring my hands
over the psychically sensitive ones -- one that I write to
can't even shake hands with other prisoners without feeling
bad.  Sigh

To John
Per your request   Theosophical Society
                   Post Office Bin C
                   Pasadena  Ca  91109
                  818 797 7817

Tell me how to order a tee shirt.  I'd love to get one.  Do you
take credit cards?  Please give details.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:38:31 -0400
From: Dewey Val Schorre <val@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Theosophy and science

>Specifically, has anyone been able to
>get a hold of a copy of "Impact of Theosophy and Science" by A.
>Kannan (proceedings of the Theosophy Science Study Group)? I saw a
>reference to it, and haven't been able to find it anywhere.
>
>Mike Levin

        Yes, the Krotona library has a copy, but I guess that
doesn't help you much. It is published in 1971 by THE THEOSOPHICAL
PUBLISHING HOUSE, PO Box 270, Wheaton, IL 60187. You should be able
to get through your local Theosophical Book Store or order it
directly from the publisher.

        If you don't want to buy the book, you can join the Olcott
Library for $30.00 per year and they will send you books by mail.
Their address is Olcott Library & Research Center, P.O. Box 270,
Wheaton, IL 60189-0270.

        I am interested in science and mathematics and will enjoy
discussions about how they relate to theosophy.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:37:41 -0400
From: "Michael R. Meyer" <73053.1433@compuserve.com>
Subject: Inter-Theosophical Dialogue

THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT: PAST AND FUTURE

An Inter-Theosophical Dialogue

The Krotonal School is sponsoring an an all-day meeting of
members of the different groups of Theosophists in southern
California, who will  share their insights into the past and
future role of Theosophical Movement.

The morning is  devoted to talks and discussion of the question,
"The Theosophical Society in the 20th Century: What Have We
Achieved?"  with panelists  Alan Donat, T.S., Pasadena; Jerry
Hejka-Ekins, T.S., Adyar; Nandini Iyer, Associate, U.L.T.;
Carmen Small, Theosophical Publications, Point Loma; Eleanor
Shumway, Temple of the People, Halcyon.

The afternoon talks and discussion address "Theosophy in the
21st Century: Where Do We Go from Here?"  The panelists are John
Algeo, T.S. Adyar; Rob McOwen, Associate, U.L.T.; and Nancy and
John Coker, T.S. Pasadena.  This session will be followed by
small group discussion, coordinated by April Hejka-Ekins.  The
day ends with a Mexican vegetarian dinner.

March 26, Saturday, Registration 9:30 a.m., $5.  Program 10:00
a.m.-noon, 2:00-5:30 p.m.  Dinner 6:00 p.m.  Send $10 per person
for dinner reservations to Krotona School by March 19.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 11:14:50 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: life in this world

Mike G:

I would not say that having a wife and three kids is a distraction to
the spiritual path. It is an excellent opportunity to learn
unselfishness, self-forgetfullness, and service.

Family life is an excellent training ground if we don't forget the
spiritual. Setting aside a little time every day for higher study
and contemplation, we can carry the inspiration into the other
activities. We can be in a grand place within even as we change the
diapers or drive a carload of noisy kids to the park.

The higher consciousness is an additional quality of awareness that
is experienced along with everything else in life. It does not come
by negation, by blocking out life. It is additive, it is in addition
to the other experiences as they happen.

Some approaches have you meditate with your eyes closed, to shut out
the world and visualize other things, to excape to other planes of
awareness. In Mahayana Buddhism, like in Zen, you meditate with your
eyes half-open. The world is included in the meditation, although
it is not specifically focused on. The intent is to *stay on this
plane*, and tune in the higher faculties of consciousness, rather
than to go to other planes in search of the spiritual. The lower
principles are down-played, and the attention is focused in the
higher. This is different than going to another plane and dwelling
in the lower principles on that plane. And it is unnecessary to be
on another plane to realize the higher principles.

The Buddha is an example of someone who has learned all there is to
be learned from human personal existence. Although he was married
and had a family, he was totally ready to die to the world, and
left them as well. He was ready, in a sense, to graduate. This is
different from our situation. We are closer to beginners, to newly
admitted students, than we are to being ready to graduate. Being
in the midst of personal human life is our learning experience, and
we have much to benefit from it.

We haven't learned this world's lessons until we are able to give
full expression to all our seven principles, as much as possible
given the limits of globe D existence. Then we will move on to
globe E and continue to learn there. Were we able to excape to
globe E at this moment, we would be no closer to understanding
our higher principles, because they are qualities or types of
consciousness, not place-specific senses.

Look to the silence. Look to that deeper part within that contains
the seeds of the higher. Dwell in the presence of the Inner God.
And we will be uplifted, enobled, raised, and acquire the deeper
parts of ourselves that we now lack.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:55:24 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: The Personality

>
>DON
>I am sorry to hear that Don has left the study group.  I really
>enjoyed our discussions.  I think that Don has a real spirit of
>youthful optimism that we need and I for one will miss.  I hope
>that it wasn't anything that I said.
>

I doubt it. Here is part of a personal message that he sent me.
(I hope this is OK to post Don!)

> Hi! I got your private letter to my internet address. Yes, I've
> presently signed off the list, for a number of reasons.

> The main reason is, and you'll be glad to hear this, is
> because I just got an account at Wayne State
> University on their VM/CMS system! So I now
> have complete internet access for free! The downside
> to this is that I'm learning to use the software and to
> operate on the CMS system and its not that easy.

> So, I've cancelled the account I was using for Theos-l and
> that is the main reason why I withdrew my name from
> the list. And I don't want to sign up with my new address
> until I learn how to use the new system.

Its too bad that Compuseve is so expensive. Alternatives are
still being explored.....
-----------
Mike Grenier   Unisys Government Systems (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 17:42:26 -0400
From: "Michael R. Meyer" <73053.1433@compuserve.com>
Subject: Inter-Theosophical Dialogue

All,

A few corrections to the promotional copy sent last night. The morning
theme should read <<Theosophy in the 20th Century>> NOT the
<<Theosophical Society in the 20th Century>>. Also, Carmen Small
represents Pt. Loma Publications.

L-Theos provides a means of speading news and information quickly. I
submitted the program for the Inter-Theosophical Dialogue within minutes
for receiving it. It will go through a few revisions passes before it
hits the press. More changes and corrections may be forthcoming.

Regarding  Eldon Tucker's comments. Only so much that can be done in a
single day. Personally, I agree with you that conferences seem feature
the same people and that a greater effort such be made to include
lesser known individuals.

Some have expressed a desire to stay on at least an additional day, to
discuss matters in greater detail in an informal setting. I am looking
into renting an appropriate place in Ojai for Sunday 27th March where
any interested individual may participate informally in dicussions
and brainstorming sessions. These sessions will not be sponsor by
Krotona or any group. The intent is to provide a place where people
may meet informally.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 12:17:09 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: aiming at the highest

Nancy:

I would say that spiritual development can progress to quite an
advanced stage without any paranormal powers, paranormal in the
sense of extended senses, consciously leaving one's body, or most
of what we'd call psychic or occult powers.

The desire for phenomena or other-worldly experiences is an
obstacle to progress. I agree that we have to be careful how we
talk about psychism to people without a background of theosophical
study. When something is taken away, like a false sense of power
and an illusory feeling of being more advanced than others, which
psychic powers provide, something else needs to be given in return.

Until and unless someone can be brought to see the wisdom
teachings behind the words of the theosophical books, there is
not something better to give up the desire for powers for. And
we, in promoting Theosophy, do not bring someone else to a
realization, it is something that is arrived at by self-effort,
by individual study, by self-realization. What we can provide is
hints, seeds of grand ideas, a nurturing environment for study and
contemplation.

Other senses and powers will happen in due course, but they are
a byproduct of our training and development, not something we
specifically set out to develope. The powers that we do seek, and
try to develope, I'd say, are the power of wisdom, of love, of
the greater virtues, the power to brighten the lives of others,
the power to set the atmosphere of the world around us to something
glad, and bright, and noble. When we train ourselves to radiate
the higher light of the sun, the moonlight of psychic capabilities
will appear at times, but only as an incidental effect that
is periodic in its appearance.

We have made ourselves. We are the results, the karmic web of
consequences that we have spun over countless eternities. A
significant part of the karma, which makes us what we are, is
the element of motivation, intent, of what we are striving for
and trying to accomplish.

When we approach Theosophy and the spiritual, where are we focused?
Where is our primary motivation? What part of our inner nature are
we directing our consciousness into? Where are we working to
establish the new set of consciousness in? Hopefully the highest.
Hopefully in the Higher Triad, the part of us that transcends the
personality. Hopefully we are continuing our unfoldment of manas
and at the same time working on something still higher, the buddhic
consciousness.

What are the true powers that we should be developing? I'd say
first, true wisdom, the power to understand life and live it
properly because of an insight into one's deep interconnectedness
with everything else. I'd say genuine love, the power to care
about others as though they were ourselves, where we live the
golden rule because we are functioning in that level of
consciousness where we *know* that the other is ourselves.
And I'd say pure action, the power to freely live life in accord
with our real inner nature, our swabhava, without any karma being
held back and with the personality acting as a clean channel for
what we would accomplish, rather than distorting and blocking
our true impulses.

The challenge that we all face is transcending the personality,
to make it a responsive instrument to us, as we center ourselves
higher within. Anything that enobles, that takes us above and
beyond our personal selves, is good. Anything that grossens the
consciousness, that strengthens the bonds to the personal self,
should be avoided.

If we could just aim our sights at the highest, and hold them
steady, and not let up, we could make incredible progress, and
the world would be such a better place! Why settle for something
less than that?

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 13:04:35 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: youth and memory

Jerry S:

The optimism of young people, their high energy and feeling that
they can accomplish anything, comes from an intense desire to *be*
in life, the outward directed kama energy seeking to create in the
world and give expression to their lives. The desire to *be*
eventually exhausts itself, becoming replaced with the desire
to *not be*, leading to eventual withdraw until the next lifetime.

I am constantly amazed at the pure enthusiasm for life in my
almost-four-year-old daughter, Galina. I see the same energy in
the youthful mind in the college student, seeking to know and
apply in life that knowledge with an innocence and purity that
is too often lost with increasing years.

----

I like the phrase "continues below the Abyss", and find the term
"Abyss" helpful in looking at embodied existence from the point
of view of the formless worlds.

One experience of the formless worlds is that you do not need a
form, a body of whatever sort, to manifest through, you act directly
upon the objects and beings in the world. What, would you say, are
other attributes of experience of formless existence?

----

I agree that the writings of Alice Bailey seem to differ from those
of HPB, that there are differences in their teachings. Although
Bailey's writings do not appeal to me, I've known some theosophists
that are attracted to her. I would not, speaking for myself, teach
nor recommend her, but allow others the right to read and study her
for whatever they find of value.

----

In one sense, memory is the personality's storehouse of experience,
which corresponds, in a reflected sort of way, to the treasury of
karmic experience in the Auric Egg, deeper within one.

There is much that we have learned in this lifetime that can be
remembered, although only a tiny bit of it is active in the mind
at any moment. There is much that we have felt and are capable of
feeling, that could arise in response to a changing life situation.
Even our muscles have a "memory", and are capable of action when
called upon, though idle but a moment before.

The resources that can be called upon in the personality to
contribute to make up the consciousness of the moment is
the "memory" of the personality. And the deeper resources, built
up over an eternity, that can be called upon as latent talents and
skills that *might* be learned in a life, constitute the "memory"
of the individuality.

Memory is really what we have made ourselves, and defines the
boundaries or limits of what can be called forth in support of
the consciousness of the moment. The resources of consciousness
are there, ready to be used when drawn out, and personal or
spiritual development constitutes both the widening of these
boundaries, the extension of these capabilities, as well as the
increasing of the *size* of consciousness, the increasing of the
amount of what we know and are that can be realized in the
current moment.

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 18:22:39 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: prana and healing

Mike L.:

Regarding the subject of biology and prana, I'm not sure that a physical
basis for life energy will be found. It's the same as the mind/brain
distinction, where the brain is an organ of thought, and both responds
to and helps with the experience of it, but is not the thinker and
does not create thought.

A living body responds to and helps with the experience of innate life
energies, but is not the originator of those energies, and gives
expression to rather than originates them. When those energies depart,
death occurrs, regardless of the presence of old age or causative any
physical trama.

And I'd say the same is true of the sense organs, giving expression to
the sense of sight, hearing, touch, etc., but not the cause of those
qualities of consciousness. Minus the physical body, I'd say that those
senses could *still be experienced*, just as thought could still
function apart from the physical brain.

In the body, though, if an organ is damanged, we are blocked from
certain experiences, while *in the body*, because that is where we are,
it is the vehicle for the expression of our consciousness on this plane.
Dead, asleep, or otherwise apart from our body, we'd have our full
senses and capabilities.

Learning the functioning of the brain, what centers of the brain are
assocated with aspects of consciousness, what chemical imbalances are
related to particular psychological disorders, etc., we are studying
the effects of thought, something correlated to it, but not thought
itself.

While it is true that to damage the brain would affect someone's
physical ability to think, or to give some drug like prosac (not sure
about spelling) could help certain kinds of mental illness, I'd still
say that we are solely affecting a person's *physical* ability to
express his consciousness, and not the conscioussness itself.

I don't think that it will ever be possible to directly photograph,
weigh, measure, touch, contain, or otherwise interact with the
nonphysical. Anything we do would be through images or the effects
of astral energies temporarily made physical, and then we would
be interacting with something that was, for the time being, physical.
And I think that the reverse cannot happen, that something physical,
on its own, cannot become nonphysical and create nonphysical effects.

What we might be able to observe, would be the effects of prana life
energies on the healing of sick people. The prana itself is not
measurable, but we can observe what happens when people with healing
abilities try to heal people. An example of this kind of individual
was the first President of the Theosophical Society, H.S. Olcott,
and his ability to heal people was written--if I remember it right--
in his biography "Hammer on the Mountain", published by TPH.

As long as the healing is purely based upon vital energies and there
is no aspect of suggestion involved, I'd consider it a useful avenue
of investigation for use in modern medicine. When hypnotism and
suggestion are involved, though, it's entirely another matter, being
potentially quite dangerous.

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 04:35:05 -0400
From: Andrew Rooke <ANDREW@mmclib.med.monash.edu.au>
Subject: Theosophical Astronomy 1.Venus 2.Dark Matter 3.Light

Many thanks to members of Theos-L for your comments on Venus which
have been most helpful. If I can follow up with a few thoughts and
questions for your consideration:
1. VENUS : The exact relationship between the Earth and its sister
planet is never stated as far as I can tell. However, following
up on Eldon and Jerry's comments, G de Purucker says (if I remember
correctly!) that the spiritual Regent of Venus was involved with the
building of Globe C of the earth chain and also was closely involved
with the development of some of the early races of mankind. This
could reflect itself in Jerry's statement regarding the influence of
Venus on the astral world and also that Venus may figure prominantly
in our future evolution on Globe E. The voice of the ancient bards
puts it so much better - apparently in the Norse mythology, the
goddess of Venus is closely related to the god of the Earth and she
wears mankind as a jewel around her neck.
2. DARK MATTER : I'm interested in Theos-l opinions on the nature of
Dark Matter, and particularly, speculation as to what it may be from
a theosophical angle. Currently there are basically two schools of
thought scientifically - 1. that it is an exotic new form of matter
formed in the Big Bang which we have yet to identify (WIMPS-Weakly
Interacting Massive Particles) or, non-luminous bodies of ordinary
matter that we find difficult to identify with our state of
technology (MACHOs-Massive Atmospheric Halo Objects) An
Australian research team has recently found what they take to be a
MACHO (they think it is most likely a Brown Dwarf star) but what do
we as theosophists make of the enigma that maybe as much as 90%+ of
matter inthe Universe is invisible. Opinions that I have read in
theosophical magazines seem to indicate that people believe that we
are beginning to detect the lower levels of the astral light acting
as model bodies holding the galaxies and galactic clusters together.
What do you think?
LIGHT : A friend who does not have access to Theos-l, has developed
an interesting theory on the Unitary Nature of Light. Based on his
own experiences as an inventor working with optical lenses, he came
to the conclusion that light does not travel and that it is not in
the form of particles. Rather we live immersed in a universal energy
field which we can sense only to the degree of the evolution of our
sense apparatus (he calls them "electronic orbitals") Also this same
researcher criticises science education for confusing science with
technology and for teaching scientific models as being facts of
nature. He has written a book on the subject (as yet unpublished!)
and if anyone is interested, I could ask him to type an outline of
his ideas on Theos-l and follow up discussion direct with him could
be directed by conventional mail.
With good wishes to all,
Andrew Rooke - Melbourne - Australia
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 02:34:50 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Libraries and archives...

Hi --

Sorry for the onslaught of new mail.

The Libraries and archives are up and running.

Some Points should be made here:

Daily postings are automatically captured on Vnet and stored in
separate files, per list per day, in the Listproc directory.
Send all messages/commands to Listserv@vnet.net
(the "char." is not really neccessary since Vnet.net knows who we are)

the daily file logs look like:
Theos-xyz.mmddyy  (e.g. Theos-l.102493  is the posting to Theos-l
                   for the entire day of 10/24/93)

I will bundle each (prior) months postings together at the first day
(well ... it may take the first week for me to actually get around to
it) of each month.  The archives and library do NOT care if you are a
member of the actual list or not.  Hence.... IF you choose to SIGNOFF
a particular list,  you may still retrieve the archive files.
This is a nice feature/option for those who *pay* for Internet e-mail.
The single "bulk" mailing is usually much cheaper than a plethora of
small messages.  I hope this can be of help.

The bundled monthly archive/log files will be kept in the individual
directories per each list.  For theos-l they can found as
ts0993.log  (Theos-L Sept 1993 Log file) etc.

To obtain the directory listings of the archive send messages as:

Index Listproc -all  (get ALL names in ALL Dirctories)
Index Theos-L       (get all files in the Theos-L directory)
Index Theos-News
etc.


To retrieve a group of files send the command:

Get Theos-L ts0993.log  (send me the September Log file(s))

ALL messages to query/retireve the Libraries should be sent
to   Listserv@char.vnet.net

Please feel free to submit any polished essays or papers to
me for inclusion within the archives of a particular list.

Thanks --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 01:51:25 -0400
From: listserv@char.vnet.net
Subject: SUBS THEOS-BUDS ELDON TUCKER

You have been added to list theos-buds@char.vnet.net.
The system has recorded your address as

             eldon@raider.sandiegoca.ncr.com

and in order for your messages to get posted, you will have to send
them from this address, unless the list does not require subscription
for posting.  If a message is ever rejected, please contact the list's
owner: jem@char.vnet.net

All requests should be addressed to listserv@char.vnet.net.

This informal discussion list has been created to serve as an
"Electronic Study Group" for the Theosophical Society in America.
However, all Theosophists are welcome regardless of any
formal membership status. We are here to serve Humanity,
rather than any specific organization.

For more specific information regarding this list's specific charter,
send the following command-line/message (as e-mail) to:
listserv@vnet.net

INFO THEOS-L

A short description, or informal "charter", of the lists (Theos-L,
Theos-News, Theos-Roots, Theos-Buds) will be forwarded to you.

Please be tolerant, and respect the opinions and
religious views of all the list members!

Thank You -

John E. Mead  jem@char.vnet.net
Charlotte Theosophical Society Study Center
704-543-6559

Acknowledgement: Thank you Vnet (Charlotte,  NC) for providing to us
this soil of support.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 01:22:39 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: New Lists and Libraries are UP!!

Hi --

Due to popular demand,  and a concerted effort to please and
meet everyone's needs, we have created the additional lists
and defined the following "rooms" for discussions.

Theos-News  : News and announcements related to Theosophy.
Theos-Roots : Existant works, and the sources of Theosophy.
Theos-Buds  : New Growth and (pre)seedings of the Theosophical Movement.
Theos-L     : The Universal Village

I am adding *ALL* current Theos-L members to *each* of these lists.
Those who wish to *limit* their e-mail expenses and costs may
"signoff" the lists which they choose to defer.

(send e-mail to listserv@char.vnet.net with the command

     Signoff Theos-XYZ

Where Theos-XYZ is Theos-L, Theos-News, Theos-Buds, Theos-Roots)
There is no formal monitoring on any of these lists.  Please use the
lists for their intended involvements.

The Theos-Roots and Theos-Buds lists are to be used for more serious
discussions regarding their respective efferent and inferrent aspects
of Theosophical Movements.  Please try to keep these two at a worthy
discussion level.  Not neccessarily formal papers,  but academic quality
is the goal (a goal *attempted*,  but not required.  We are all
learning).

Each list will have their own archives and logs.

Please note:

The listserver services *all* lists. To get a listing of library
archives request: (send to listserv@char.vnet.net)

Index Theos-L
Index Theos-Roots
Index Theos-Buds
Index Theos-News

To retrieve a specific file ..

ex: Michael Meyers essay on "A New Image of the Cosmos ..."
in the Theos-L archive.  send to listserv@char.vnet.net the message

Get Theos-L meyers01.txt

this will request the listserver to send you the essay from the
archives.

Please feel free to discuss and ask questions on any of these additions!
(Theos-L is our global "back-yard fence" to talk with neighbors)

Peace --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 21:21:30 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Karma

KARMA

Eldon mentioned "the true meaning of karma" as a title for a
discussion.  I especially like this, because I have long felt
that there is a lot more to karma than most people, theosophists
included, know or at least talk about.  Many people have the
notion that karma is a series of rewards and punishments - that
our every action or thought generates a karmic response in kind.
HPB says (somewhere?) that even a failure to act can generate
karma.  But I submit that the idea of karma as an endless Wheel
of cause and effect is, in fact, exoteric.  There is an esoteric
teaching in which individual (not collective) past karma can be
consumed through spiritual insight.

To put in quickly, I see karma as a living balance between
dualities.  All life on our planetary chain is dualistic, and all
life resonates between dualities or polar energies.  Karma is an
evolutionary force that seeks to balance these forces.  However,
life's pendulum usually swings from one side to the other, slowly
and gradually with less force and less travel with each swing,
but with enough energy to keep swinging for many millions of
years.  In this way, karma or what we could call evolutionary
karma, is a lot like entropy.  It is also one face of the goddess
Kundalini.

MORE ON PSYCHISM.

There is essentially two kinds of yoga, and also two kinds of
spiritual paths.  On the one hand we can raise up consciousness
into spiritual realms.  This is what Raja Yoga seeks to do.  On
the other hand we can attempt to bring spiritual forces down into
our physical plane or into our physical body.  This is what
Kundalini Yoga seeks to do.  Both have inherent dangers, but both
promise significant payoffs.

These two paths basically match, or express, the Two Arcs or
Paths around our planetary chain of globes - the downward
evolutionary shadowy Arc, the Arc of Descent, and the upward
involutionary Arc of Ascent.

Bringing spiritual forces down into our body (a basic magical act
called invocation) is well known and well documented in both East
and West.  Annie Besant warned that if enacted too fast,
headaches and worse could result.  Sri Aurobindo tried to invoke
spirit to the point of spiritualizing his physical body (which is
an act that some say Jesus accomplished in the ascension) but
failed.  He wrote that our physical bodies were simply too
material at this point in our evolutionary cycle to spiritualize
them in a single lifetime.  Probably the best documented case of
a modern-day Kundalini awakening is Gopi Krishna's KUNDALINI
(Shambala).

According to Kundalini Yoga, the creative force of Kundalini
rises up through the Central Channel (the Sushumna which resides
in the subtle Body of Light at a point corresponding to the
spinal cord in the physical body) to eventually make contact with
the Thousand-Pedalled Lotus at the top of the head or Crown
Center.  Behind all of the lavish symbolism of Kundalini Yoga,
including the Chakras and Nadis and the goddess herself, several
important ideas can be found.  Number one - we are already
inherently spiritual, Kundalini is within us, but sleeping or
dormant, needing only to re-awaken.  Number two - creative
potential awakens in a serial order, or at least a healthy
awakening is one which is in a serial order.  This being so, it
follows that spiritual awakening (Kundalini rising from the
Muladhara to the Saharasa) necessitates awakening of the psychic
facilities as well; psychism equating to Kundalini passing
through the lower Centers in order to get to the Crown Center.

However, obtaining psychic powers does not mean that you must use
them.  You can obtain them quite naturally, through spiritual
development, but their use will usually generate new karma.  A
case in point here is that of Swami Ramakrishna, the great
Bengali saint of last century, whose desciple, Swami Vivekananda,
brought yoga to the west.  Ramakrishna was trained in the
tantricism of Kali, the black goddess of death (i.e., goddess as
crone - equivalent to the Sephiroth Binah).  However, he refused
to use his powers and spent most of his time in samadhi.  He
never healed, for example, not even for himself (he died of
throat cancer).  I find it very hard to believe that anyone who
desired to consume his or her karma would practice psychism of
any kind.  Better by far to practice altruism and compassion.

                                           Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 11:23:55 PDT
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: something from purucker

Following is an interesting quote that expresses in words
better than mine some of what I've been writing about:

----

    There is but one Occultism; one Truth. The Fountain of
Wisdom on this earth is the School of Occultism of the Masters
of Wisdom and Compassion. It is the one supreme source from
which have been drawn all the aspects or facets or particles
of truth that the various religious and philosophical schools
or systems of teaching existing in various ages of the world
contain. It is the Mother of innumerable schools of Occultism
that have existed in the past, that exist presently, that will
exist in the future.

   The schools which have arisen at various times among
students of this fundamental Truth are virtually as numerous
as men are themselves; though existing more particularly in
past times, there are even in the present no small number of
schools of so-called 'occultism.' In some of these schools
there is a certain amount of the Ancient Wisdom taught, as it
has been seen through the distorting mental prisms of
individuals who have wandered from the Fountain of Wisdom of
this earth, which Fountain is the only school of Occultism
that I know of, the only one worthy of the name, that of the
Masters of Wisdom and Compassion and Peace.

    What are then some of these so-called Schools? They have
existed in all times. The Mysteries of the Greeks were one
such School. The Mysteries of the Persians were one, and those
of the Egyptians were one. The Mysteries practiced in the
ancient New World among the Peruvians and among the Mayas,
were two other Schools. The Rosicrucians of medieval ages were
a mystic and quasi-esoteric School, and originally were
virtually Theosophists. The Martinists of France, existing
even today, form one of these so-called occultistic Schools.
The Vedanta of Hindustan is essentially a School of Occultism,
although it is a system of exoteric philosophy also. The
Lamaism of Tibet is one more. Then there are the so-called
Alchemical bodies; but these last, whether in India, whether
in the Hither East, whether in Europe, when all is said,
Companions, while possessing a modicum of spiritual aspiration
and a certain proportion of aspiration after genuine
esotericism, nevertheless yearn even more for 'powers,' for
'phenomena.'

    There are, moreover, in the East today, and in the East
both Far and Hither, a number of mystical, quasi-esoteric,
quasi-occult bodies, some larger, some smaller, who study in
their own way the different remnants of esoteric or mystical
literature which past ages have brought into being in those
countries. With a very, very, very--three times 'very'--few
exceptions, all these bodies of students have been more or
less hungering after the lower siddhis, which H.P.B., using
the Pali term iddhis, speaks of in *The Voice of the Silence.*
In India they are represented by the different Schools of
Yoga-practice, or by extremely philosophical and metaphysical
study, some of which is most excellent, and approximates in a
few cases closely to our own Theosophical studies in their
esoteric aspect.

    In the Hither East, to wit, in Persia, Egypt, Syria, and
in parts of Turkey, the same type of student exists, the same
type of quasi-esoteric or quasi-occult bodies exists, often
extremely exclusive. Usually nothing is heard of them, and
virtually all are devoted to what in the West it has become
customary to call 'Occultism,' and phenomena-hunting. Such
quasi-occult, quasi-esoteric societies or associations or
schools or bodies or groups, do a certain good work in their
way; and the same can be said of them all in every country and
in every age.

    Some of these quasi-esoteric societies have much truth in
them,and therein lies the danger, because all truth is
beautiful, attractive, even seductive at times. Yet none of
these are what our Masters would call the E.S. started by
H.P.B., either in its lower or higher Degrees, in which the
concentration is entirely on the things of the spirit and of
the higher intellect, and upon an aspiration to lead the life
bringing about an ever greater manifestation of the inner god
in one's being.

    There is one supreme Source of Truth and that Source is
our Holy Order, at the Head of which is the Silent Watcher of
our Planet, our Supreme Head, the Fountain of spirituality on
this earth. Our own Great Teachers, the Masters who founded
among us our own Oriental School, and who originally sent
forth H.P.B. to strike anew the keynote of spirituality and
wisdom in the hearts of men, are but the Servants--even as we
are the Servants--of our supreme Chief.

    This Mother-School exists in that mystic region called
Sambhala, ...

    [quoted from "The Esoteric or Oriental School: Steps in
the Initiatory Cycle," by G. de Purucker, Point Loma
Publications, pages 2-3.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 11:42:57 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: misc

     Interesting point you brought up.  It appears that we do
have some kind of mechanism within our constitution that is
trying to bring material into conscious awareness.  Freud argues
for inhibitions created by his super-ego.  Whatever the
mechanism, it is accepted that people suppress material.  I
believe that part of the meaning of enlightenment is being free
from the need to suppress anything.  I have a theory that
mythologies have encoded within them everything we need to know
to become enlightened, and they are meaningful to us precisely
because we unconsciously recognize that information.
     I'm not a fan of hypnotism.  In modern practice (which is
very different from H.P.B.'s day) the word means little more than
guided imagery. At least that is what I have been able to gather
from the professionals.  But the idea of guiding our own
imagination may have some potential merit as a practice to access
unconscious material.  So does keeping dream journals--a fad of
the 70's. The most profound and useful practice of releasing and
coming to terms with unconscious material that I know of is
H.P.B.'s recommendation for the practice of altruism and self
honesty.
     Sorry we missed you two last week.  Part of the discussion
centered on personal paths we are taking.  You would have loved
it.
     I feel for your psychically sensitive prisoners.  Some of
them are living in hell, and are in need of professional help
that their circumstances may never allow them to find. Anything
you can do to help them strengthen their ego boundaries will
help.  Have you ever read Dostoyevsky's THE DOUBLE? It is a short
work; about 150 pages. It is about a man named Golyadkin who is
crippled by guilt and shame and becomes psychologically
splintered.  The book may offer some insights into some of your
prisioners.

Re. family and the spiritual path:
     This reminds me of an oft made remark by the late Manley
Hall, that family is the spiritual path for most people. I can
identify with Jerry Schuler about feeling conflicted between
theosophy and family.  Though it has always been clear to me that
family must always come first, putting this into practice was
sometimes very difficult.  Poor W.Q. Judge. He had it worst than
most of us. With his consuming love for theosophy, his wife and
her relatives were absolutely hostile to The subject.  Judge was
unable to even mention the theosophy without raising a lot of
negativity.  Ironically, Mrs. Judge joined the U.L.T. some years
after her husband died.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 11:40:13 -0400
From: Katinka Titchenell <ktitche@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: a few cents

this from Kim

Eldon:

I remember reading in one of the Gandhi biographies that he never
did experience any of what we would term "psychic" phenomena.
Earlier today you wrote:

>I would say that spiritual development can progress to quite an
>advanced stage without any paranormal powers, paranormal in the
>sense of extended senses, consciously leaving one's body, or most
>of what we'd call psychic or occult powers.

Some thoughts occurred to me on the need for psychic development
in spiritual development, or lack of same.  Many theosophists may
maintain that "mahatma" Gandhi was not a mahatma in the sense in
which the word is used when applied to M and KH.  This may or may
not be the case, but in any event, I can't help thinking that I
am so far from being in any position to pass judgment that, from
my perspective, the distinction is immaterial. Similarly,
whatever benefits psychic powers might bestow at some
advanced stage of development, the vast gulf (eons it would
appear) between that stage and my current state precludes my
having any meaningful perspective on the matter.

Having just proven (at least to my satisfaction) that I can have
nothing cogent to say on the subject I will close.

Kim

PS: Have enjoyed much of the discourse on theos-l, just wanted to
put in a couple of cents.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 09:13:11 -0400
From: listserv@char.vnet.net
Subject: INFO THEOS-ROOTS

This list evolved from the growth of Theos-L, an informal discussion
list created as an "Electronic Study Group" for the Theosophical
Society in America.

Since it's original formation in July 1993,  Theos-L has fissioned
into a suit of four discussion lists.  Each separate discussion list
was created not to divide,  but to unite the members within their
own defined limits;  Only an aid to assist the modern Theosophist,
to manage their boundaries.

The four discussion lists have their own specific aspects within the
ongoing evolutions of Theosophy.  Their brief charters follow:

Theos-L:

This lists serves the Universal Village of Theosophists.
No topic is too profound, too insignificant, too old, too new,
or too used.  Here we find our community of ideas and friends.

Theos-News:

This list is for the dissemination of News-items only.  If
you are a reclusive Hermit,  you will love this list.
No discussions Please.  Just send announcements.  News on Conferences,
Lectures, (news) of Theosophists, (news) about Theosophists, and
possibly a prayer, or meditation, or poem.  Please send comments and
responses elsewhere, or in private mail.

Theos-Roots:

This list is meant to (un)cover the Roots of Theosophy. History,
Existant writings, or discussions on distinctions and nuances of ideas
and interpretations.  As the old growth of the tree of life sends the
sap to the new buds,  here we savor these sources of wisdom.  An
inferrent branch of the Movement in evolution. Look within to see
where you come from and where people have been.

Theos-Buds:

The Commencement of the Theosophical Movement. Evolution, Future
trends, Movement, Growth, and even pruning.  Here we discuss
ideas within the emmergent growth of the Theosophical Movement.
The efferent movement of the evolution of Theosophy. Here we discuss
our misfourtune of living in interesting times.

Important:

All "Theosophists" are welcome regardless of any formal membership
within any "Society".

There is no Religion higher than Truth.

If you require more information please contact the list(s) owner:

John E. Mead
jem@vnet.net
76220.131@compuserve.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 10:41:07 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: regarding our new lists

John M:

With respect and appreciation for the work that you have been doing to
make "theos-l" possible, I must say that I feel that the breaking
apart of "theos-l" into four lists was premature, and would like to
make a few comments.

The focus of a discussion group should be based upon the willingness
of its members to participate and contribute ideas and materials.
Until now, there has been a single, unrestricted group, "theos-l",
with everyone free to write about whatever theosophical matters
interest them.

You have proposed that "theos-l" be broken up into four lists,
and has given us a breakdown of what should go in each list. When
I first read the announcement, my first reaction was to wonder if
you are asserting ownership of the list, *telling* us how it will
now be, or if you are proposing a particular breaking apart of the
list. I would be seriously concerned if any form of censorship or
control is imposed.

I would have been happier about the changes if a proposal was
posted, and we all had time to comment and discuss it before the
changes were made. (And this would include a discussion where our
ideas were posted, and not just in private email to you.)

There needs to be a unrestricted group for general theosophical
discussion, with no requirement that it meet someone's standards for
minimum academic quality, where the content is not limited to just
one aspect of Theosophy. If the new definition of the groups allows
"theos-l" to continue as it is, and be such a group, then having the
other groups are fine.

Regarding 'news', I'd expect about two-or-three items a month to show
up, and don't see sufficient volume to justify a separate list.

Regarding the distinction between 'roots' and 'buds', it would be
fine to separate out discussions solely of theosophical history
apart from those of philosophy. But to classify a study of the
original writings of Theosophy and their study in a group
with history, in a group distinct from one based upon the
emmergent growth of the Theosophical Movement ('buds'), implies
the idea, which I think is mistaken, that a study of the original
materials is looking to the past, and different from the budding
growth of Theosophy in the future.

If we were to break apart Theosophy by content, I'd break it
between 'philosophy' and 'science', where one group deals with
timeless issues of philosophy, and the other relates the
ideas of Theosophy to today's science.

I'd expect much of the discussion to continue in 'theos-l',
where there are no restrictions placed on what theosophical
material is contributed.

----

If there were a general discussion of the list, my proposal would
have been to make it into three lists:

theos-intro

    Introductory discussion of Theosophy. Everything is kept
    simple. Content is aimed at people without prior background
    in theosophical study. This group is the one that is
    generally announced.

theos-gen

    General discussion of theosophy. No limit to how advanced
    the topic. Someone not familiar to Theosophy may not be
    able to follow.

theos-misc

    News, general announcements, discussion about computer
    technical issues regarding email and internet access,
    announcements of projects needing help.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 12:05:00 -0400
From: "Michael W. Grenier" <mike@atc.sp.paramax.com>
Subject: Re: regarding our new lists

Eldon writes:
>
>If there were a general discussion of the list, my proposal would
>have been to make it into three lists:
>
>theos-intro
>
>    Introductory discussion of Theosophy. Everything is kept
>    simple. Content is aimed at people without prior background
>    in theosophical study. This group is the one that is
>    generally announced.
>
>theos-gen
>
>    General discussion of theosophy. No limit to how advanced
>    the topic. Someone not familiar to Theosophy may not be
>    able to follow.
>
>theos-misc
>
>    News, general announcements, discussion about computer
>    technical issues regarding email and internet access,
>    announcements of projects needing help.

I tend to agree with Eldon's proposal. I certainly feel some
discussion is needed. For instance, should we announce over USENET
that this mailling list exists (groups such as soc.religion.*,
philosophical, scientific groups)? This may generate considerable
interest but we need a means to handle the new load as well as the
introductory group that Eldon mentioned.

-----------
Mike Grenier   Unisys Government Systems (Air Traffic Control)
mike@atc.sp.paramax.com  (work)               612-456-7869
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 13:02:07 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: astral

This is from Brenda Tucker.

Being as Eldon appears to be trying to reform Jerry, who appears to be
doing astral travel, I thought I'd try to help by telling a little
about my own experience with the development of consciousness.

By reading statements made about pain and the integration of pain
with life, I sensed that the condition of humanity is one which is
unalterable except by degree and by liberation.  Even by securing
one's own fate as much as possible with meditation or riches and good
behavior, a sensitive person true to their heart responds to every
other pilgrim's plight.  The crimes and disappointments of others
become as real to you as your own and by attempting to do away with
selfishness, you open your emotions and life to the suffering of
others.

The eternal course of the human kingdom is not even changed once the
bulk of humanity has passed on to the superhuman kingdom, for at that
time, the animals have reached their stage of individuality and must
set out on the same road which we once travelled.  While it is very
true that there is, corresponding to the pain, an abounding joy
similar to what is felt when we watch children playing, growing, and
learning, or the younger generations experiencing much about life
that we remember recently going through ourselve, there is still
travail for all, until the lessons are complete.  But we are equal to
our difficulties, or so we reassure ourselves, because we are the
cause of them and because God planned it so we would not be
overwhelmed, but the truth would be revealed to us in stages and this
through death and rebirth.

Anyway, many have come to accept this as a way of life.  Except, I
still cannot feel equal to the pain of all suffering humanity and so
must seek after liberation with all my might.  At one point, early on
when astral travel and projection were under study, I became
convinced that the astral vehicle, which was being separated from the
physical, was important to the health and proper functioning of the
physical.  My resolution was that by avoiding any occurrence of their
separation except in dire emergency, I could continue the mental -
astral - physical makeup where the astral is at most a bridge for
thoughts and at least a light body holding the cells in vitality.
All interest that I had hoped would make astral travel a learning
experience was squashed.

When I read about investigating inner planes and establishing a sense
of where we are and thereby what there is to learn and study, I only
believed it to be possible under the "guidance" of the inner man at
least, and guidance of the friendly, assisting deities at most.

It was in this setting that I regained the freedom of inner plane
study with a new limitation, my own being.  By making the entire plane
of experience off limits for various reasons, the only recourse was to
study within the limits of my astral and mental body, so any signposts
I might erect would have position in inner time and space, because I
erected them for my own use.  I don't know if it's possible for anyone
else to see them or not; maybe through the Jungian concept of a
unified subconscious, these signposts would effect others.

So what is there for an individual limited to the study of their own
bodies on the inner planes? Maybe some of the people writing here
have an answer to this.  Maybe all types of energy exist in one
person; I've heard that all the elements are present in man's body.

Since we mentioned the idea of things floating through one another,
if something were floating through, would I have the right (let alone
the ability) to capture its course for a time until I had finished my
examination and testing of it?

What other possibilities of occurrence are there? Well the
inbreathing and outbreathing of life, the ceaseless changing as whole
worlds arise and then fall in the conscious mind.  A sudden
appearance and equally sudden departure of one's own thought or is
thought an independent existence? Does thought have a life of its own
deserving of study? Do some thoughts fade over time or dissipate in
the presence of another? What is the influence of the will? I imagine
the will could resurrect a dead thought if it was ever alive.

I don't believe anyone has ever seen a desire.  Does anyone recall
mention of this in the literature? Why is desire so illusive that it
can't be sensed? Sure we recognize the product of desire, a
coarseness in our surroundings, but the desire itself is rooted so
deeply that it could successively recede into itself if we were
attempting to confront it.

Isn't it like that, too, for people we'd like to know and become
friends with or at least become useful to? All they have to do is
withdraw and all contact with them is lost.

I hope you'll consider the importance of the astral body in your
general welfare and not so willingly elect to do without its
potential and influence in daily living, every second of time.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 13:49:16 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: creative writing in our group

Our group is growing in volume of email and number of participants.
We are at the "critical mass" necessary to become self-sustaining.
What we have going is an application of modern science, western
technology, to the promotion of Theosophy, and it has the promice
of success.

There are, currently, a small number of us that account for most of
what is written. Someone might become concerned that the content of
the group might be limited or controlled, that everyone might not
feel free to write and contribute. I don't see this as a problem,
as it *will* go away.

No matter how much any of us write, our contributions will become
smaller and smaller a percentage of the total. I'm doing what I can
to help bring this about, by giving word-of-mouth promotion of the
group, by encouraging people to join us and participate.

If anyone feels that there is a topic missing from the group, anyone
that wants us to discuss something in particular, the best approach
is not to say "let's talk about xxx," but rather to start writing
about it, posing some questions, but also making a clear, direct
statement about the subject of interest.

I'd feel that any fresh theosophical writing, anything newly written,
is welcome and encournaged. And to a limited extend the quoting of
theosophical passages. For longer submissions, say 200 or 300 lines
or longer, or for reprints of articles that we've written in the past,
the best approach might be to email them to JEM for inclusion in the
library, and posting to "theos-l" the title, length, and a synopsis
of the article, to let everyone know that it is available.

The important thing to consider, and to promote, with this group, is
the *creative*, the free flow of thought and writing, and the less
restrictions that we impose on the process, the better.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:50:56 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Re: regarding our new lists

I would like to appologize for not clearly indicating what has
happpened.  The group has not been forcibly split at all,  and I doubt
it ever will be.

The addition of three extra lists is to assure that everyone's needs are
equally satisfied.  The nature and personality of Theos-L is left
unchanged. The additional lists were requested by members who wished
to limit their traffic according to a variety of reasons ranging from
personal taste to simple economics.  When the requests reached a viable
mass I made the decision to request more rooms (so to say).  The labels
on the rooms were selected by a simple grouping of the totality of
the requests.  There is really no control issue here.  It is like
a convention hall were rooms are released as groups form and request
them.  The names of the new lists were simply abstracted from the
types of functions and processing which people seemed to want to
perform.  The abstractions were selected because they were about as
broad as I could make them and maintain some form of distinctions.  It
is important to recall that our medium of interaction is very plastic.
We can reshape when necessary.

Peace

John Mead

p.s. the News list has already become the most subscribed.  It is also
expected to be the least active.  This is not surprising...
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:21:32 -0400
From: "Michael R. Meyer" <73053.1433@compuserve.com>
Subject: New List

Eldon et al,

I fully support John Mead's decision to form additional lists, and I
feel their designations are adequate and valid.

We must remember that L-Theos exist because John originated it.

Eldon, you are free to establish your our e-mail list.

I believe subscribers should have a means to select what they want,
and not have everything everyone says forced on them at their expense.
It cost me money, Eldon, to receive your submissions ... quite a bit
of money.

I, for one, am grateful to John Mead for establishing the theosophical
lists . . . and for his concern for and sensitivity to the needs of
subscribers.

MRM
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:10:39 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: KARMA and objective consciousness

As my first point in a discussion of karma, I'd like to relate it
to the three modes of objective consciousness:

----

There are three modes of consciousness, three degrees or levels of
selfhood at which life can be experienced. They have been called the
nirmanakaya, the sambhogakaya, and the dharmakaya. Depending upon which
point of view one takes, life will appear to operate differently.

The lowest, the nirmanakaya, has a separate sense of self, of me and
the other. I do something and the other person is affected; the other
person responds. There is action and reaction. The subject is different
from the object.

This is the point of view that is usually taken when karma is written
up. You do something to someone, and you have created karma with that
person, and will be bound to that person so that they can respond to
you based upon what you've done.

This level is perception from the standpoint of manas.

The second, the sambhogakaya, has no separate sense of self, no
distinction between me and the person that I interact with. There is
just this particular thing that I am doing. I am lost in total
enjoyment or rapture or selfless absorption in the action. There is
a particular thing that I am doing, but there is no sense of me doing
that thing, just a sense of the situation, of the drama being
enacted, but not of myself as a individual participant.

Karma from this standpoint is a dynamic relationship, a living link
between myself and the other person, a link that is independent of
any particular interaction that we are engaging in at a particular
moment.

This level is percenption from the standpoint of buddhi.

The third, the dharmakaya, has neither separate sense of self, nor
any attachment to the particular nature of the current situation.
Something particular is happening, but no sense of it being in any
way different or apart from the universality of life is felt. The
experience is just one of pure being, even though I am there and a
particular event is happening.

Taking this point of view, karma is a dynamic relationship inherent
in the situation, and not a specific bond between me and the
specific participants in what is happening. Karma is the
strengthening or weakening of my participation in the specific
situation.

This level is perception from the standpoint of atman.

All these aspects of karma are true, but it depends upon how one's
consciousness is oriented at a particular moment which part of it
one becomes aware of.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 17:09:19 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: regulating the list and keeping costs down

MRM:

It might be possible to come up with designations for groups that
we can all be comfortable with, but there wasn't any discussion,
nor even a call for suggestions, with John posting a summary.

John started the list, and I think that we are all grateful for its
existence, and for the computer work that he does to support and
maintain it.

It's true that any of us can break off and create a separate
mailing list, and as the quantity of materials increases with
perhaps hundreds of participants in the future, there may be
several other lists formed.

I see no reason to stop telling people about the list, nor to not
encourage greater participation.

One thing that we could do would be to have a convention where
all subject lines start with the initials of people writing the
messages. Then if you see that a message from "theos-l" came
from a particular writer, you could not read it, if you so choose.
Then you might not feel that anyone was forcing you to read
their writings.

The breakdown into groups should occur along lines of how
the participants naturally think, as well as to allow for an
introductory group that we could promote.

I hope that you're not saying that the whole activity of the
list is John's personal property, that he can do anything that
he pleases with it, and that if we don't like it we can go away.
I certainly hope that it is looked at and treated as an
impersonal project for the betterment of humanity, and not as
personal property that can be disposed of anyone way its owner
wants.

I'm sorry that it costs you a lot of money to participate in
the list, and if there's a way to organize things where you can
avoid costs and not have to read everything, I'd be for it.
I'm not against more lists, but feel the breakout was premature,
being in advance of any discussion about it.

The biggest problem is that anyone using compuserve is facing
a rapidly escalating cost of participation, because of its
pricing. It is not a fault of the list nor of the volume of
materials that are on it. It is only posponed by dividing the
list, as each piece will in itself also continue to grow.
To really save money, you need come fixed-rate access, like
on Delpha, at $23/month for 20/hours of access. My cost is
about $18/month, flat-rate, using netcom.com. And we have a
new member, Val, who lives in Ojai, who could perhaps show
you how to use it, should you sign up on it?

----

I'd like to know everyone's ideas regarding how the list could
be organized to label its contents, to break apart it somehow
by subject matter, and to allow our different views to peacefully
coexist. I don't think that censorship, regulation, nor banishment
of selected ideas or people is the right approach. The hardest
in our theosophical studies to do is to mantain flexibilty of
mind, and we should certainly practice it on things close to
home, like this list ...

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 05:48:17 -0400
From: Dewey Val Schorre <val@netcom.com>
Subject: Gospel of Internet

For years I was a satisfied CompuServe subscriber.  About a year ago I
also joined netcom.  For $17.50 you can get unlimited access, any time
of the day at 14,400bps, V32bis.

There are lots of programs to download, such as Eudora, which makes
sending and receiving E-mail easy.  Professors often make their journal
articles available for downloading.  The catalogues for the University
of California libraries are available, however the catalogues to city
libraries don't seem to be there, even when they are available in
electronic form at the libraries themselves.

I still keep my CompuServe account because there is some data available
there but not on the internet.

In case anyone is interested in pursuing this farther, here are to good
suppliers of internet accounts.  Other internet suppliers have 800
numbers, but their monthly charge is usually so high that it is cheaper
to pay for long distance calls.

NETCOM
voice:1(408)554-8649
info@netcom.com
$50.00 setup,$19.50 per month, reduced to $17.50 per month if you give
them your VISA card number and let them charge automatically.


RAIN Network
P.O. Box 2683
Santa Barbara, CA 93120
voice:1(805)899-8610
rain@rain.org

$35 start-up, quarterly ($30), bi-annual($60) or full year ($120)
prepayments.  At present they have a Santa Barbara number, but I
understand they will soon have an additional number in Ventura that
will make it a local call to Ojai.  I will probably switch to them when
that is available.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:01:32 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: welcome to some new members...

Hi --

I wanted to welcome the Blavatsky Information Center (Dan Caldwell and
Michelle Graye) to the discussion list(s).  I must plead ignorance....
what is the Blavatsky Information Center??

also we have a new International member from Brazil!! Welcome to Osmar
de Carvalho!! You had mentioned a BBS in Brazil which dealt with
Theosophy and Science?? We have several scientists and others who would
be interested in this.

Peace --

John Mead

p.s.  we now have working on-line archives and a library.  We are
(always) in the process of collecting additional materials if you have
some that can be Public-Domain accessible.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 20:30:03 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: RE: Theosophical Astronomy/Cosmology

Hi --

in reference to Andrew Rooke comments on Theosophical Astronomy...

>>2. DARK MATTER :
a. WIMPS (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles)
I find these items really speculative.  As I understand it, these would
have to be some form of matter which interacts only via the
Weak-Nuclear interaction.  The only reason to believe any of this may
be feasible is because of the lack of experimental confirmation
regarding solar neutrinos.  i.e.  since we can't find the expected flux
of solar neutrinos, then we have problems with Neutrino theory (i.e the
Weak force since neutrinos only interact via that force).  Somehow it
seems strange to assume that if the ones you KNOW should be present,
are actually NOT found, then why should you expect even more and bigger
ones to be laying around somewhere? seems that if anything it would be
that weak matter decays rather rapidly and should NOT be around.  oh
well..

b. MACHOS (Massive Atmospheric Halo Objects)
I would not be surprised if there is alot of this stuff around.  I
think of Machos as unconnected stray planets laying around..  The
problem is that we do not seem to be in any particularly unusual place
in the universe.  So why would the background density of these be so
variable??? There are not many of these around us in this part of
space.  Why would it be different elsewhere??

=======
>theosophical magazines seem to indicate that people believe that we
>are beginning to detect the lower levels of the astral light acting
>as model bodies holding the galaxies and galactic clusters together.
>What do you think?

I tend to agree from a couple directions...

1) the higher planes clearly can interact with matter (or we wouldn't
be here), and must also have an energy content.  Hence why not assign
them a term in the Stress-Energy Tensor?? One could do this by adding
an average background energy density due to some "cosmological
constant" (as Einstein did).

2) The QED theory implies that virtual particles are very real and that
space has alot of activity in it.  Hence why not measure this
background activity as an average presence of energy (any energy has a
"positive" gravity effect.  even antimatter) which could be directly
measured as the "missing" mass (or Cosmological Constant)??

Jay Amundson -- I'd Like your comments (if any) on this.
===========================


>LIGHT : A friend who does not have access to Theos-l, has developed
>an interesting theory on the Unitary Nature of Light.
>> ..we can sense only to the degree of the evolution of our
>sense apparatus (he calls them "electronic orbitals
>.. could ask him to type an outline of his ideas on...

Yes!! please send an outline.

Also..  The "Physics Essays" journal (published in Toronto) is a
peer-reviewed journal which actually does publish off-the-wall theories
(assuming they have merit) which contradict much of the conventional
thinking (you just have to show that they may be theoretically
plausible.  i.e.  basic physics must still be explainable by some sane
(though weird) reasoning process).  he might try them.  They would
certainly respond with a valid criticism, which he (maybe) would be
interested in.

Peace --

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 09:18:05 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Greetings from Brazil (Fwd - by jem)

Hi!!

I must have had a mistake in your e-mail address??? The listserv checks
each piece of mail to see who it is sent from and if they are a member
of the list before forwarding.  It rejected your message because the
letter arrived from a slightly different location than
osmardc@bra000.canal-vip.onsp.br

apparantly you actually route through

osmardc%bra00.canal-vip.onsp.br@uicvm.uic.edu

This was my mistake!!  please send a message to listserv@vnet.net
with the following lines as the message:

subscribe theos-L Osmar de Carvalho
subscribe theos-news Osmar de Carvalho
subscribe theos-buds Osmar de Carvalho
subscribe theos-roots Osmar de Carvalho

This will subscribe you to the lists with the *actual* e-mail address
the listserver *thinks* you are coming from!! Hence, it will accept
your future postings/requests as long as you send from the *same*
place!! If you use several different BBS's or computer addresses, you
may choose to subscribe from the all *if* you plan on sending e-mail
from those addresses also.

It is very good to have you here amoung us!!

Please note that I have resent your original message to theos-l so you
do not need to resend that one.

after you subscribe to the lists, I'll remove the incorrect address I
had for you!

Peace --

John E. Mead
p.s. your rejected message is attached for your reference only.

> To: osmardc@bra000.canal-vip.onsp.br
> Subject: Error Condition Re: Greetings from Brazil
>
> osmardc%bra000.canal-vip.onsp.br@uicvm.uic.edu: You are not
> subscribed to theos-l@char.vnet.net.
> Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe,
> send mail to listserv@char.vnet.net with the following request:
>
>            subscribe THEOS-L Your Name
>
>  Th> also we have a new International member from Brazil!!
>  Th> Welcome to Osmar de Carvalho!!
>
>      Shanti, dear brothers !!
>
>      As I mentioned to John in a personal message, for many years
>      I have tried to contact theosophists around the world by
>      eletronic means, but never found someone.  As far I can see, now
>      I arrived to the right place.
>
>      The Brazilian Section of the Theosophical Society (Madras)
>      has 1200 members, and I am coordinator of a Lodge in Sao Paulo
>      City, wich has five lodges and 200 members.
>
>      In past July was held here the Eight World Congress of The
>      Theosophical Society, in Brasilia, wich gathered 500
>      theosophists of many countries.  We were waiting for a 747
>      of north american theosophists, but we saw only 10, if so.
>
>      What happened??
>
>
>  Th> You had mentioned a BBS
>  Th> in Brazil which dealt with Theosophy and Science??  We
>  Th> have several scientists and others who would be interested in
>  Th> this.
>
>
>      Not only Theosophy -- wich I represent--, but a bunch of
>      esoteric strings.  The Brazilian people is very mistic, and his
>      religiosity and espirituality has direct influence in the way
>      of Life.  Brazil is the western country wich gives more
>      credibility to reincarnation (Gallup's poll data), round
>      40% believes in it.  Right here, is frequent a firm to consult
>      an astrologer to contract a worker. This is only an example.
>
>      Off course, the majority of scientists face us like "crazy
>      people", but Theosophy is the most consistent view of
>      transcendent things they can grasp by works in the psychology
>      area, and the theosophical influence in the theories of
>      Sheldrake, David Bohm, Fritjof Capra and others.
>
>      We can talk more about this!
>
>
>  Th> Peace --
>
>      Shanti!
>
>      []s
>
>      Osmar de Carvalho
>      Brazil
>      osmardc@bra000.canal-vip.onsp.br
>
>
> ___ GLASHwave/QWK v2.12
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 09:44:12 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: the model of the three logoi

Our theosophical terms are drawn from the various religions and
philosophies of the world, sometimes used in their original sense,
sometimes given a different twist. When there are many terms that
refer to the same thing, my preference is to use the Sanskrit terms.
Sanskrit, the language of the Gods, is said to be special, having
significance even in the sounds that go with the words.

One term that we come across in theosophical texts is "logos", which
is Greek for "word". A word gives manifest expression to an idea.
And we read about three logoi, the first, the second, and the third.
There are three levels or degrees of giving manifest expression to
an original idea.

First we have the idea itself, unmanifest, not given expression or
form in any manner. It is a living, dynamic potential, rather than
being actually present. We have the idea as a part of ourselves, but
it has not been brought forth, it is a karmic seed rather than
an outwardly living part of ourselves.

With the first logos, the first level of putting it in words, the
first step of giving manifestation to the idea, we know it, but
have not yet put it into words. It is an understanding that just is
too vast, too magnificent, too far-removed from our live to use
words to label it. It might very well be lost to us if we try to
grasp it too directly in our minds.

With the next level of expression, the second logos, that formless
idea first takes on form. The idea is clothed in words. It corresponds
to an object that is archetypal, in akasha or the astral light, but
not yet made physical. We have our verbal description of the idea
in our minds, and the words that it is expressed in will grow and
evolve as we continue to think about the idea. And the value of the
idea increases as we inter-relate it to the other ideas in our mind.

At the third logos, the "word" has finally reached physical expression.
We have taken out pen and paper, or starting talking to others about
the idea. It is now clothed in speech and has some expression in the
world of concrete forms.

At times, we will have to break up and discard the words that we
have clothed our ideas in, dissolving the third logos and then
unfolding it again from the second. And at other times, we have to
break up and discard the words in our minds as well, dissolving
the second and third logoi into the first, then unfolding the two
again. And the same with the first into the unexpressed, into
the silence.

This process relates to the manifestation of life and consciousness,
and when we use the term "logos", we're taking an analogy, a way to
describe or compare something to. We're not literally taking about
a "word", although the process is the same. We could be taking about
the coming into manfestation of an idea, a person, a world, the
process is the same.

We have the unmanifest, followed by the formless manifest (first
logos), then by the archetypal or higher worlds of form (second
logos), and finally by the concrete, physical worlds of form
(third logos). Comparing what happens to the stages of knowing
or giving expression to an idea is helpful, but is not the thing
in itself, it's a clue, a facet of what is going on, but just one
jewel in the treasure chest of Theosophy.

Even in this aspect, we see something of the purpose of life: to
seek manifestation in order to obtain self-consciousness. When we
given spoken expression to an idea, we've at the same time given
clarity and additional self-consciousness to it in our minds. And
putting words, in our minds, to a wordless, wonderful, spiritual
truth, does give clarity to that truth, even though at a later
time we will have to discard the words and seek others to better
express it.

                                 Eldon Tucker
                                 eldon@netcom.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 12:03:50 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Forest Tradition:  A Teaching (REPOST)

I read this article on a bulletin board called 'soc.religion.eastern'
and thought that it may be of interest to theosophists; this is also a
first attempt on my part to send a message be 'lifting' it from an
internet bulltin board. If successful and if positive feedback is
received, I'll occasionally plan on sending messages of significance
from similar sources in future as well.

Best Regards/Arvind

In article 1lr@pdx1.world.net, lyeh@reis54.alleg.EDU (Hun Lye) writes:

The following is part of a teaching given by a western monk ordained
in the Theravadin tradition.  He is a "forest-monk" practicing
according to the flavor of the late Ajahn Chah of Thailand.
______________________________________________________________________
Insecurity is a very unpleasant feeling.  When we are children and feel
that way, we seek reassurance from mum and dad.  Then as we grow up, we
see this feeling of insecurity as a fact of life, and learn to abide in
the knowledge of the insecurity of *all* existence; that is, if we
really grow up! If we don't really grow up, we find substitutes for our
parents: a partner, belief systems, philosophies and so on.

Our training is to actually *feel* this insecurity, and see it as "just
like this" (yathabutam).  But without being balanced we cannot do it.
In those early days at Chithurst (the first forest monastery in
England), it was "just like that," but there was a real temptation to
get caught in an extreme position of either indulging in doubt or
repressing it.

In the Buddhist Way, it is clearly stated that the two extremes of
"blindly believing" on the other hand, and "repression and denial" on
the other, are false.  The way that is Real is the Middle Way - the way
of gently bearing things, exactly as they are, in their raw condition.
To do this, we have to rain the mind until we are no longer pushing and
pulling at the states we experience.

Pushing and pulling is the way of contending.  And it's very easy to
contend with life when it's not going the way "I" think it should.
There was a very difficult period in my training in Thailand after I
had already been a monk for about four years.  As a result of a motor
bike accident I had had before I was ordained, and a number of years
sitting in bad posture, my knees seized up.  The doctors in Bangkok
said it was severe arthritis, but nothing that a small operation
couldn't fix.  They said it would take two or three weeks.  But after
two months and three operations I was still hardly walking.  There had
been all kinds of complications: scar tissue, three lots of general
anaesthetic and the hot season was getting at me; my mind was really in
a state.  I was thinking: "My whole life as a monk is ruined.  Whoever
heard of a Buddhist monk who can't sit cross-legged." Every time I saw
someone sitting cross-legged I'd feel angry.  I was feeling terrible,
and my mind was saying, "It shouldn't be this way...." It was really
painful, physically and mentally.  I was in a very unsatisfactory
situation.

Then I heard that Ajahn Chah was coming down to Bangkok.  I thought if
I went to see him he might be able to help in some way.  His presence
was always very uplifting.  When I visited him I couldn't bow properly;
he looked over at me and asked, "What are you up to?" I began to
complain: "Oh Luang Por," I said, "It's not supposed to be this way.
The doctors said two weeks and it has been two months...." I was really
wallowing.  With a surprised expression on his face he said to me, very
powerfully: "What do you mean, it *shouldn't* be this way? If it
*shouldn't* be this way, it *wouldn't* be this way!"

That really did something to me.  I can't describe how meaningful that
moment was.  He pointed to exactly what I was *doing* that was creating
the problem.  There was no question about the fact of the pain; the
problem was my denying that fact, and that was something I was *doing*.
This is not just a theory.  When someone offers us the reflection of
exactly what we are doing, we are incredibly grateful, even if at the
time we feel a bit of a twit.

The pushing away is the distortion of awareness that makes problems out
of life.  Life can be very painful, but with right awareness there can
be a discerning of the facts.  When awareness, or mindfulness, matures
into truth-discerning awareness (satipanna), we can bear the state we
are experiencing and discern the facts.  With intelligence free to
consider what can be done and our human sensitivity unhindered, we
don't have to deny what we feel - we can learn from life.

(this teacher talked about a particular pleasant and good experience he
had when he was in New Zealand - trekking, walking, and meditating but
how he also turned that experience into a "problem.")

So even around pleasure we create problems by not relating directly,
truly, by not relating to that which is true, but relating to that
which is false, or to our fantasies.  With pleasure, we can feel afraid
of losing it, and fantasize in an attempt to hold on to it.  With pain,
we tend to dwell in memories of when it wasn't there, in an attempt to
avoid it.  This is how it often is in broken relationships.  (And death
is a kind of broken relationship.) Rather than seeing the fact of the
pain, there is a tendency to go into memories of "how it used to be" or
fantasize about "how it could be." That is dwelling in what's not real.

There is a verse in the Dhammapada:

"Mistaking the false for the real, and the real for the false, we
remain stuck in the false.  Seeing the real as real, and the false as
false, we attain to the Truly Real."

To be able to do the work of seeing the false as false and the real as
real, we need to cultivate this truth-discerning awareness.  We need to
operate in a mode whereby we can accept the offerings of life and death
completely, whole-heartedly, and discern the facts - the Truth.

The quality of trust we have in the beginning is wonderful.  It says:
"Yes, there is something to be realized.  Life isn't merely an ordeal
that we tolerate until we die.  There is a true quality that can be
seen and known." And then, having given ourselves to the training, we
find that we begin to go beyond the habitual tendencies of pushing and
pulling at the experiences of pleasure and pain.  And we continue until
we come upon a new way of seeing.  We see in a way that we've never
seen before.  We have a new perspective of things.  "trust" is now
verified.  We need no longer be concerned with doubt about the
possibility of the Way; we simply get on with it.

All the training we do, including the traditions that we use, are for
this purpose.  They make our life situations workable.  Anger becomes
workable; greed , jealousy, pleasure, pain, all become something to
help us grow in the direction of True Understanding.  "I go for refuge
to Dhamma - the way things *actually* are" takes on a new meaning for
us.

Then finally, and thankfully, there are beings in the world who teach
from the perspective of complete trust.  The Buddha's Teachings come
from the perspective of complete trust.  That is where life itself is
something that we give ourselves into with an attitude of complete
trust.  There is no longer any doubt, any confusion, any despair.  All
that remains is complete trust in Dhamma.

Posted by,
Hun Lye
lyeh@alleg.edu
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 14:18:55 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Alice Bailey (AAB) and HPB

> I agree that the writings of Alice Bailey seem to differ from those
> of HPB, that there are differences in their teachings. Although
> Bailey's writings do not appeal to me, I've known some theosophists
> that are attracted to her. I would not, speaking for myself, teach
> nor recommend her, but allow others the right to read and study her
> for whatever they find of value.

This message is in response to Eldon's comments above as well as to a
couple of other persons who seem to indicate that what Alice Bailey's
books contain is inconsistent with what is in HPB's books. I beg to
differ with this assertion and I hope that you do not mind bearing with
me as I continue my questioning. In my opinion, AAB was the person that
HPB had predicted will appear in the 20th century to carry further the
work that she (HPB) had started in the 19th century. I also, later in
this message, plan to respond to the request/comment from John Mead
regarding the book "Prophecy on Trial" by James Stephenson, written in
1983 and dealing with prophecis made in the Bailey books.

Can you, Eldon (or anyone out there reading this), point to any specific
area in which the AAB teachings differ from HPB's teaching? It appears
to me that both of them used mental processes (telepathy) to transcribe
the information that they received from the Hierarchy. I have seen
people talk about AAB's work as channeling but if you read AAB's books,
she herself has spoken strongly against using 'astral' faculties like
channeling and has cautioned disciples against the 'glamour' of
channeling as a result of premature opening of the chakras. She has
said (see the 14 rules for disciples in 'Initiation, Human and Solar')
that these faculties become available in a 'natural' way as a disciple
evolves through the practice of 'Study, Meditation and Service'. Various
authors (see for example, Lansdowne in 'Rules for spiritual
Initiation') have indicated that this happens as a disciple nears the
3rd initiation.

To give a flavor for the book on prophecy by James Stephenson
(available thru Lucic Trust), I am going to simply quote a few
sentences from the Preface to the book:

    "..It contains all the dated prophecies found in nineteen of the
    twenty four books written by Alice Bailey. ... Mrs. Bailey claims
    that these nineteen books were sent to her telepathically from
    Shigatse, Tibet, over the thirty year period from 1919 to 1949.
    Further, she believes the sender to be a Tibetan lama named Djwal
    Khul who had also worked in a similar manner with Mrs. Helena
    Petrovna Blavatsky when she wrote The Secret Doctrine, first
    published in 1888."

The book is divided into the following chapters:

1.Prophecies and Predictions in general

2.The Bailey-Tibetan phenomenon

3.Dated Prophecies - general format

4.Matured, confirmed, specific and obvious dated prophecies listed by
  subject

5.Non-determinable, dated prophecies listed by subject

6.Non-determinable, dated prophecies regarding the Aquarian Age

7.Non-determinable, dated prophecies for the far-distant future

I hope the above helps a little bit. What I particularly like about
both HPB and AAB is their emphasis on selfless service. Let me close
this with the following quote from one of the Bailey books:

    "It takes courage to obliterate one's own personal desires
    consistently and persistently. The disciple has to take himself as
    he is at any given time under any given circumstances with any
    given equipment. He then proceeds to subordinate himself, his
    affairs and his time to the needs of the hour. When he does this
    within his own consciousness and is therefore thinking along the
    line of true values, he will discover that his affairs are taken
    care of, his capacities are greatly increased and his limitations
    are forgotten."

Some words may not be exactly how they appear in the book as I have
just repeated above what I remember (I do not have the book in front
of me!)

May Light and Love and Power (will-to-good)
Restore the Plan on Earth!

Best Regards/Arvind Kumar
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:57:28 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: comments regarding Alice Bailey

Arvind K:

My statement regarding Alice Bailey was that her writings *seem* to be
to be inconsistent with Blavatsky's. That was my impression, although
it's been about 22 years since I read from one of her books ...

We have a basic question of what is Theosophy and who are theosophical
writers. There has been disagreement among theosophists regarding
different authors. Everyone agrees on Blavatsky, but after her there
are differences among the writers and the theosophical family tree
branches out.

My favorite branch is the one based on the Point Loma Tradition, where
Purucker is held on an equal basis with Blavatsky, and *he* is
considered as the one to follow Blavatsky in the 20th century. We
obviously disagree on this point. I'd expect that there are a number
of other people held in equally high regard by of us, depending upon
which branch of the tree that they go along with. Someone else may say
Crosby, another may say Leadbeater, and even put Leadbeater higher,
by saying that where they disagree, Leadbeater is the one who is right!
It's a matter of personal preference.

I'm not too concerned in differences between how the various writers
say that they got the material for their books. My main interest is
in the content, and what it does for me. Reading Purucker, Judge,
Blavatsky, and certain other authors, I sense a certain thought
current that appeals to me. I did not get the same feeling years ago
when reading Bailey. I enjoy both the content and the elevating
atmosphere, the spiritual effects of the reading, and leave it to
everyone to choose their own source.

When I talk about what I personally believe, though, I'd say that
there's something special in certain theosophical works that is not
present elsewhere, but what I'm taking about is not readily apparent
and cannot be proven, so it has to be taken as a statement from me of
personal belief.

Regarding the content of the works, there are probably more
similarities between the writings of Besant and Leadbeater and the
writings of Bailey, than with the other mainline theosophical branches,
like the ULT, Point Loma, Pasadena, or independent branches. This will
probably come out over the coming months as our discussions progress.

The need for selfless service is important, and here is an important
point of agreement. We can start off with some comments on it. Other
points of philosophy, where they differ and where they agree, can be
discussed as they come up.

I'll write some comments on it tommorrow morning...

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 03:04:25 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Theosophical Astronomy/Cosmology

Jay --

so good to hear from you!!  I was about to send out a search party
to save you from the academic blizzard of frozen constants and
firmly entrenched minds...

No -- I have not centered mass in Hilbert spaces.

I am taking a Math course to review Lebesgue measure/Integration
theory.  I was struck by the way that the concept of measure
can be used to sharply designate forms (or spatial sets of points)
as being Physical vs Mental.  It was interesting the way Lebesgue
set up "measure" to define an algebraic difference between measurable
and unmeasurable sets.  It seems to appear that there is a logical
and natural way to separate forms between the two planes.  I really
would like to take some time off to look at QM and see if there is
a way to look at Quantum logic and measure (set) theory to find a deeper
connection between the two.  It is too strange that they both end/lead
to Hilbert space!

oh well ...

Peace

John Mead
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 02:06:58 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Greetings (fwd by jem)

>
>      Aloha,Judy!
>
> >It's good to hear from you.  It sounds like theoseach a
>      number larger than that.  With a *real* quality of membership,
>      of course.
>
>
> >I am the president of the Saint Paul lodge in Minnesota, U.S.A.
>
>      That's amazing!! I am president of a Lodge whose name is
>      "Sao Paulo", i.e., "Saint Paul" in Portuguese.
>      This is what we call here "sinestesic coincidence", as our
>      Blavatsky worshipers would say.
>
>      Who arrived first ??  My branch was formed in 1917.
>      Probably I am a reincarnation of some early member... 8-)
>
>      There must be some occult link between our Lodges...
>
> >I am enjoying hearing from people around the globe.  I don't have
> >time, with the duties of my job, to do much except read what comes
> >across the screen, but I do welcome you. Sincerely, Judy
>
>      Thank you, Judy!!  Yet you don't have time to message exchange is
>      good to know there is a number of people like you who attune here
>      at the same frequency; Theosophy.
>
>
>      Warm tropical embraces from Brazil!
>
>      Shanti!
>
>      Osmar *8)
>
>
>
> .. God's thought makes universes; your thought makes yourself.
> (A.Besant)
> ___ GLASHwave/QWK v2.12
>
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 02:06:48 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: AAB and HPB

To Arvind Kumar

     As you may recall, I was the one who initially responded to
your request to dialogue with someone regarding Bailey and
Blavatsky.  Since I never indicated to you in my response that
"what Alice Bailey's books contained is inconsistent with what is
in HPB's books" it appears that I was not one of the "couple of
other persons" indicated in your response to Eldon.  But since
you exhibit an obvious interest in dialoging about Bailey and
Blavatsky, I can only speculate that you never saw my message to
you, so I will repeat it again, but in an expanded form:
     As I wrote, I have very closely read Alice Bailey's
Autobiography, and less closely some of her other books,
particularly ESOTERIC ASTROLOGY.  I'm much more familiar with the
writings of Blavatsky.  If you are familiar with Bailey's 24
volumes, I am deeply interested in having a comparative
discussion  with you.  My purpose would be to compare the
writings to see where they agree and/or don't agree.  I'm more
knowledgeable about Blavatsky than Bailey, but if your
familiarity with Bailey is comprehensive enough, I think we can
have a fruitful dialogue.  As I recall, you said that you like
both Blavatsky and Bailey. I responded that Blavatsky is more
appealing to me.  I had done some preliminary comparative
research on Bailey/Blavatsky about five or six years ago, but
other obligations left the work unfinished.  I'm very interested
in continuing this research, and if you are also interested, we
can accomplish much more in dialogue.
     In order to maximize the productiveness of this inquiry,
there would be a couple of ground rules that I would suggest: 1.
That information exchanged be backed up by evidence, and opinions
be supported by a rationale. 2. That the source of any quote be
cited, and care is taken that the quote is not used out of
context.
     I hope that others on the net will also feel free to make
input, and that they also respect the above.
     My only limitation is a personal one.  Though I have been
looking for years for someone to dialogue on this subject,
(therefore I'm very motivated to do it), I also have other
obligations that may slow down my responses.  I'm presently in a
graduate program, and my present reading load on far less
interesting subjects is from 8 to 16 hours a day.  I hope that
you will be forgiving for this handicap.
     Assuming you are interested in this type of exploration, I
will "kick the ball off" by responding to some of your statements
to Eldon:
     You expressed the opinion that Bailey "was the person that
HPB had predicted will appear in the 20th century to carry
further the work that she (HPB) had started in the 19th century."
You cannot be referring to H.P.B.'s statement that another effort
will be made in 1975, since Bailey died around 1948 or 49.
Therefore you must be referring to some prediction H.P.B. made
that I'm unfamiliar with.  Would you kindly direct me to where I
can find this prediction in H.P.B.'s writings?
     You said: "Can you Eldon (or anyone reading this), point to
any specific area in which AAB teachings differ from HPB's
teaching? It appears to me that both of them used mental
processes (telepathy) to transcribe the information that they
received from the Hierarchy."
     Your first question, is of course, the one I hope we will
explore.  Regarding your second point: I have never seen anywhere
in Blavatsky's writings or in the Mahatma letters, any mention of
H.P.B. communicating with a "Hierarchy."  She does claim, however
to be in communication with various people whom she referred to
as "Brothers;"  principally the Mahatmas M. and K.H.  But the
Mahatma letters show these people not as (though enlightened)
remote demigods, but rather very accessible human beings, whom
many people were in physical contact.  Among those who knew the
Mahatmas in the flesh were H.P.B., Olcott, Damodar, and Subba
Row.  The Mahatma's expressed themselves in very human ways and
expressed human needs.  For instance, at the end of letter 6,
K.H. says: "Meanwhile, being *human* I have to rest. I took no
sleep for over 60 hours."  K.H. also expresses negative emotions.
In letter 53, K.H., speaking of Hume, says: "I grow sometimes
very irritated at his petty feelings and spirit of
vindictiveness..."
     It is of course true that K.H., if he is still alive, would
be a different person now.  But the fact still remains that
H.P.B. was working with human beings with human weaknesses, and
that their is no reference (as far as I have been able to find),
to a "hierarchy" such as that outlined by A.A.B.  Would you show
me where H.P.B. describes this "Hierarchy?"
     In your discussion of James Stephenson's book, you say:
"Further, she [A.A.B.] believes the sender to be a Tibetan lama
named Djwal Khul who had worked in a similar manner with Mrs.
Helena Petrovna Blavatsky when she wrote The Secret Doctrine,
first published in 1888."  Does Stephenson give a source where
Djwal Khul "worked" with H.P.B. on THE SECRET DOCTRINE?  This is
the first I have ever heard of Djwal Khul's involvement in that
book.
     You close by saying: "What I particularly like about both
HPB and AAB is their emphasis on selfless service."  Yes I agree,
H.P.B. certainly tried to emphasize service.  So we on this point
we have agreement.  Would you please furnish a citation for your
quote?
          Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 00:41:53 -0400
From: 91484615@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RE: Theosophical Astronomy/Cosmology

John,
I agree higher planes do seem to interact with our "big slow world"
I am afraid that the demis{ of the SSC will delay our progress in
gathering physical evidence of the elementary forces that create this
condensed energy that we are enjoying.  I was thinking about the
possible quantum nature of forces like karma and love, and their
theoretical exchange particles.  Maybe we can use Feynman diagrams!
I think that this is the rest of the iceburg that is physics.  Maybe
we can help the thing along a little. There is an unfortunate
disconnection between science and most of the world.  I think people
might be interested in the possibilty that we don't know very much yet,
the sea of understanding lies ahead and we have only got our feet wet.
Have you ever found a center of mass of a polygon in hilbert space?
Science can be intimadating.

Take care
Jay Amundson
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 00:10:59 -0400
From: 91484615@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RE: creative writing in our group

regarding the partitioning of the group, I feel that this is a good
thing, the volume of mail on the current list is more than I have time
for.  Perhaps the sections will be more focused and easier to follow.
I do not see any problem with the partions John proposed.  Buds is a
likely place to include the intro stuff and roots might deal with the
stuff that requires an extensive theosophical vocabulary.  I don't feel
there is any restriction except on the amount of information in each
list, this will enable me to participate in the areas that interest me
and keep me involved.  Thanks John.

Jay Amundson
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 21:10:31 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Short Thoughts to Andrew

Andrew R.

Dark Matter.  Could this be the illusive 'plasma' or 4th state of
matter (the first three being soldis, liquids, and gases)?
According to theosophy and occultism, there is at least 90% of
existence invisible to us.  Actually the idea of dark matter
comes from scientific modeling and speculation rather than any
new discovery.

Light.  Light is quantized (i.e., focused) consciousness.  The
difference between a geometric (massless) point of consciousness,
or a monadic consciousness-center, and a quanta of light is
mainly in the semantics.  Light is both a wave and a particle.
Because light is a material expression (albeit perhaps the
highest possible expression), its dualistic nature is inherent
within it and which side it manifests depends upon how it is
observed or measured.  If light is not a particle, then it also
is not a wave.  It must be both or neither.

                          Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 21:06:48 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Response to Brenda

Brenda.

>Being as Eldon appears to be trying to
>reform Jerry, who appears to be
>doing astral travel.
Is that what Eldon has been doing?  I
thought that he was simply warning
others not to do as I was doing.

>By reading statements made about
>pain and the integration of pain
>with life, I sensed that the condition
>of humanity is one which is
>unalterable except by degree and by
>liberation.  Even by securing
>one's own fate as much as possible with
>meditation or riches and good
>behavior, a sensitive person true to
>their heart responds to every
>other pilgrim's plight.  The crimes and
>disappointments of others
>become as real to you as your own and
>by attempting to do away with
>selfishness, you open your emotions and
>life to the suffering of others.
Brenda, this paragraph is pure Buddhism.
Besides, there is no way to
"secure one's own fate."  Security is an
illusion or maya.  Change, sometimes slow
and sometimes abrupt, is the rule of this
world.  I like to call it the Chaos Factor,
but whatever you call it, nothing is secure
or lasting below the Abyss.

>Except, I still cannot feel equal to the
>pain of all suffering humanity
>and so must seek after liberation with all
>my might.
This is what the Buddha said too.  Actually,
liberation cannot even begin until we first
feel the desire for liberation.  As long as
we enjoy physical life we will not even want
to be liberated.  Liberation is from suffering.

>At one point,  early on when astral travel
>and projection were under study, I became
>convinced that the astral vehicle, which was
>being separated from the physical, was
>important to the health and proper
>functioning of the physical.
It is important.  Our physical body is a
materiel expression of our Body
of Light.  The separation of the Body of Light
from the physical body has nothing to do, per
se, with physical health.

>My resolution was that by avoiding any
>occurrence of their separation except in
>dire emergency, I could continue the mental -
>astral - physical makeup where the astral
>is at most a bridge for thoughts and at
>least a light body holding the cells in
>vitality. All interest that I had hoped
>would make astral travel a learning
>experience was squashed.
Your logic appears to be faulty here (?).
I don't see your point.  Why do you
think that separating the Body of Light
from the physical body will hurt
you in any way (we do this every night when
we go to sleep)?  While I certainly have been
having physical problems, these are from my
own karma and not in any way related to my
astral traveling.  The Body of Light does not
"hold the cells [of the physical body] in
vitality." except insofar as the physical body
is an expression of the higher subtle bodies (a
condensation of our karma, as some have put it).
You seem to be saying that separating the
physical and subtle bodies will somehow
bring death closer.  I have never read this
anywhere, and can't believe it.  There have been
many long-lived healthy people who have astral
traveled.

>When I read about investigating inner planes
>and establishing a sense of where we are and
>thereby what there is to learn and study, I only
>believed it to be possible under the "guidance"
>of the inner man at least, and guidance of the
>friendly, assisting deities at most.
Yes.  I agree with you here completely.  I feel
that I have both.

>It was in this setting that I regained the
>freedom of inner plane study with a new
>limitation, my own being.  By making the
>entire plane of experience off limits for
>various reasons, the only recourse was to
>study within the limits of my astral and mental
>body, so any signposts I might erect would have
>position in inner time and space, because I
>erected them for my own use.
Interestingly enough, your self-imposed limitation
is exactly the same limitation that we all make.
It is inevitable.  Occult teaching says that
everything that exists external to us, already
exists internally as well.  To look within yourself
is the same as visiting the Globes of our
planetary chain.  There is virtually no objective
way (no *test*) to know whether we are actually
visiting external worlds or delving into our own
inner realms of our mind.  Even the idea of
signposts won't help us in this, because of
Jung's collective unconscious (which I do subscribe to)
which suggests that we all have similar landmarks
within our psyches.  I personally see it this way:
when we look into ourselves far enough, we
will find ourselves gazing at the universe.


>So what is there for an individual limited to
>the study of their own bodies on the inner
>planes? ... I've heard that all the elements are
>present in man's body.
Everything.  You heard correctly.

>Since we mentioned the idea of things floating
>through one another, if something were floating
>through, would I have the right (let alone
>the ability) to capture its course for a time
>until I had finished my examination and testing
>of it?
I am not sure what you mean by "things."
Certainly this is true for thoughts.  Theosophy
teaches that thoughts are living things on the
mental plane.  They enter into and leave our
mental bodies somewhat like parasites.  If we
think about them, they feed and grow strong.
If we ignore them, they wither and die.  But they
never disappear, death being more a state of
dormancy.

>Does thought have a life of its own deserving
>of study? Do some thoughts fade over time or
>dissipate in the presence of another? What is
>the influence of the will? I imagine the will
>could resurrect a dead thought if it was ever
>alive.
Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  The will can be used to
control/direct our thinking process so that
we can feed selected thoughts while
starving others.

>I don't believe anyone has ever seen a desire.
>Does anyone recall mention of this in the
>literature?
I believe Leadbeater says that desire is red
in the aura.  I can usually tell strong desires
in others, though I don't see color.  Desire
usually shows in a person's eyes.


>Isn't it like that, too, for people we'd like
>to know and become friends with or at least
>become useful to? All they have to do is
>withdraw and all contact with them is lost.
Only physical contact can be lost.  Mental
contact cannot be lost, and in fact, we are
mentally connected to everyone in our
lifewave at all times whether incarnated or
discarnated.

>I hope you'll consider the importance of the
>astral body in your general welfare and not
>so willingly elect to do without its
>potential and influence in daily living,
>every second of time.
While I appreciate the warning, I am not at
all sure what the danger is.  Could you
elaborate?

                     Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:57:28 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: comments regarding Alice Bailey

Arvind K:

My statement regarding Alice Bailey was that her writings *seem* to be
to be inconsistent with Blavatsky's. That was my impression, although
it's been about 22 years since I read from one of her books ...

We have a basic question of what is Theosophy and who are theosophical
writers. There has been disagreement among theosophists regarding
different authors. Everyone agrees on Blavatsky, but after her there
are differences among the writers and the theosophical family tree
branches out.

My favorite branch is the one based on the Point Loma Tradition, where
Purucker is held on an equal basis with Blavatsky, and *he* is
considered as the one to follow Blavatsky in the 20th century. We
obviously disagree on this point. I'd expect that there are a number
of other people held in equally high regard by of us, depending upon
which branch of the tree that they go along with. Someone else may say
Crosby, another may say Leadbeater, and even put Leadbeater higher,
by saying that where they disagree, Leadbeater is the one who is right!
It's a matter of personal preference.

I'm not too concerned in differences between how the various writers
say that they got the material for their books. My main interest is
in the content, and what it does for me. Reading Purucker, Judge,
Blavatsky, and certain other authors, I sense a certain thought
current that appeals to me. I did not get the same feeling years ago
when reading Bailey. I enjoy both the content and the elevating
atmosphere, the spiritual effects of the reading, and leave it to
everyone to choose their own source.

When I talk about what I personally believe, though, I'd say that
there's something special in certain theosophical works that is not
present elsewhere, but what I'm taking about is not readily apparent
and cannot be proven, so it has to be taken as a statement from me of
personal belief.

Regarding the content of the works, there are probably more
similarities between the writings of Besant and Leadbeater and the
writings of Bailey, than with the other mainline theosophical branches,
like the ULT, Point Loma, Pasadena, or independent branches. This will
probably come out over the coming months as our discussions progress.

The need for selfless service is important, and here is an important
point of agreement. We can start off with some comments on it. Other
points of philosophy, where they differ and where they agree, can be
discussed as they come up.

I'll write some comments on it tommorrow morning...

                           Eldon Tucker
                           eldon@netcom.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 15:32:52 -0400
From: eldon@raider.sandiegoca.NCR.COM
Subject: what is a scientist

Who is a scientist and what constitutes the study and practice of
science? Is the title self-conferred, or is it based upon some objective
criteria that we can all agree on?

One definition might be to call as scientists those whose work is to
advance the limits of scientific knowledge, those doing pure research,
and to exclude anyone doing routine work. A research chemist would
qualify, but a chemist doing routine labwork would not be a scientist.

Another definition would be based upon what field of knowledge is
studied and applied. Someone in the physical sciences, like mechanical
engineering, might say that his field is scientific, but that another
field like psychology is not, because it deals with "unreal" things.

But what constitutes a valid field of study? Many areas of inquiry
are routinely rejected as a waste of time, because they are inconsistent
with the typical view of how life works. They are considered, in
advance, as having no useful results, because they *are believed* to
deal with things not possible, and therefore ignored, when not
repressed.

Take one example from my personal experience. As a graduate student as
the University of California in 1976, I thought it would be interesting
to do some empirical research into astrology. I found a professor in
the psychology department at UCSD willing to let me do a independent
study under him. I produced a four-page questionnaire, and distributed
it at both UCSD and San Diego State University. 146 usable
questionnaires were collected from students born in 1957.

When word got out that I was doing this study, it was almost blocked
on a technicality--the questionnaire had to have prior approval by the
human subjects committee--but fortunately the professor was able to
get around it for me. The project might have been respressed, as not
being scientifically respectable, because some people thought tha
astrology was non-scientific nonsense.

I was disappointed, though, in the results that I came up with.
Using all the information on my questionnaire and hundreds of
astrological varables from the 146 charts, I was unable to establish
any correlations. In other areas, like marketing research, it is very
easy to establish relationships, using various multivariate statistical
tools like stepwise multiple regression and disciminant analysis, but
in the case of the astrological variables, I could not find anything
to relate to all the information that I had gathered on these people.

Another research study that I did a few years before, as a graduate
student at the University of Utah, by contrast, showed a tremendous
amount of statistical information regarding theosophical beliefs and
differences between Adayr and Point Loma Theosophists. The subject
of astrology, though, did not hold up for me.

Does the definition of scientist depend upon our current employment,
where we are when we do something, or the level of technology applied?
Am I more a scientist at work at NCR writing some Unix/C code that will
take its humble place as part of a scaleable, parallel, distributed
database system, that is not just state-of-the-art, but way ahead of
anything else that will be available in the next year, ..., am I more
of a scientist than at home writing some Dos/C or dbase/foxpro code
on my home computer? Do I change when I go home for the night?

If one of us works on the space shuttle project, or other big-ticket
scientific projects, are we more scientific that others working on
a shoestring budget?

I think that the term "scientist" is most likely used by people to
identify themselves with the scientific establishment, to make a
statement of profession of belief in the western, materialistic
worldview, like a Baptist saying "I believe in God". It is saying
to other "scientists" that one is not a heretic, not one of those
mystical, unscientific, deluded people, e.g. not a *non-believer*.

The scientific methodology, in some respects, parallels the occult
sciences. There is experimentation, the gathering, testing,
retesting, and teaching of knowledge of nature and man, but the
theosophical place for the heart of science, from this point of
view, is in the possession of the Masters.

This would, of course, sound like nonsense to someone unfamiliar to
Theosophy, because the claim is that about 18 million years ago, by
semi-divine revealation, mankind was given "the fire of mind",
awakened into intellectual thought, and given wisdom from higher
beings, the Dhyani-Chohans, and that the elect of mankind, the
Mahatmans, preserve that knowledge to this day.

*This* is science from the theosophical standpoint, and what we see
as modern science is a reflection of it, in the same sense as other
institutions reflect other inner truths, including our judicial system
reflecting karma, the Vedic tradition reflecting this living
transmission of Teachings, and universities reflecting the real
institution of higher learning, poetically called "the tower of
infinite thought".

                           Eldon Tucker (eldon@netcom.com)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 00:30:28 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: karma, a thing of splendid beauty

The simplest way to describe karma is in terms of retribution. As a form
of spiritual crime and punishment, it sees that the evil people about us
meet their just reward for their wrong doing! We see people going
unpunished and tell ourselves, and *hope*, perhaps, that they will not
really get away with it, they will someday meet their reward.

This can be expanded to include rewards, where the merit for our good
deeds is accumulated and we are someday able to cash it in, that even if
there are no signs that we are appreciated for the good that we do in
life, we will still receive some special reward for it. We'll have
something nice come to us in some heaven world or future life that we
would not have otherwise been given.

Both rewards and punishments are surely aspects of karma, but a banker's
model of karma, where we incur debts and set aside savings for future
pleasures, a quantitative model, where it's us as apart from the rest of
the world, is bit a small aspect of the reality of karma. According to
this model, if we kill 50 men and women, each of them will have their
turn to kill us, there's precise quantities involved, and the affected
other individuals are specifically bound to return to us!

Another model is that of learning in school. We are faced with certain
lessons, we are working in life according to a predetermined lesson
plan. When we make mistakes, we are repeated brought back to those
lessons that we are having trouble learning, and do them again and again
until we have mastered the experiences and are ready to go on. It is our
lack of learning that is holding us back, and there are not precise
quanitites of experiences or interactions with specific other people or
places that must be revisited.

I would say that karma is not mechanical, not based upon fixed
quantities, not something outside of ourselves that we must face and
deal with according to some external judge, banker, or educator. Karma
is the very fabric of our being, and as it is active in this lifetime,
it is the living links with others, which comprises who and what we our.

Karma is the contents and action of the buddhic principle, the
principle by which we co-create the manifest universe with everyone
else in life, the principle by which we first acquire an awareness of
ourselves as distinct from others, one removed from the universality of
atman. And the effects of karma, as seen as a form of interplay between
us and others, as cause and effect, appear at the third principle,
manas, where the distinct consciousness of *me*, as apart from *others*,
appears.

It has been said that "you are your karma", and it is true. You cannot
escape nor be forgiven your karma anymore that you can escape or be
forgiven being who and what you are. By your very nature, you draw to
yourself those people and circumstances that help make you what you are,
and that you have an active participation with in the creating of
manifest life. And this coming together is *chosen*; both parties must
choose, in a sense, to get together in a life to live out some of the
karma between them. So the karma of a particular lifetime is negotiated
between you and the rest of life.

Karma is not "worked off" like a mortgage is paid off over time, slowly
and painfully, as a heavy burden. It is the collection of living links
between you and others that creates you, that defines what you are and
can be in life. These links are strengthened or weakened over time,
perhaps changed from one form to another, but not entire done away with.

Upon reaching the threshhold of nirvana itself, it is karma, the living
bonds between you and the humanity trailing behind, that holds you back,
that keeps you from stepping out of this world, that lets you stay
behind as a Bodhisattva. This karma is refined, spiritual, based upon
the highest of compassion, but it is still karma, it is still a living
link between you and others, and it still defines what you are as you
come into being. It is lofty karma, though, and makes of you a saintly
being, a nirmanakaya, someone of the noblest nature.

There is a process to life, one of gradual growth. The flower bud ripens
over time, then reaches the point where it is ready to open its petals
in the bright sunlight. The same is true of our spiritual nature, which
is made of the highest karma within us. We ripen over time as well, and
someday will open to the world as a thing of splendid beauty.

                                  Eldon Tucker (eldon@netcom.com)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 23:54:34 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: being an impersonal server

The importance of impersonality is stressed in theosophical literature.
But what is it? It is not *non-personality*, it does not make one cold,
distant, aloof, disinterested, non-related to other people.

We can be as warm, friendly, out-going, connected to other people as
anyone else, but be impersonal at the same time. Impersonality is not to
be achieved by trying to wipe out the personal in life, it is not
created by *negation*. It is rather a higher form of awareness that we
can be in, it's a matter of awareness, of focus, of where within we are
centered, not of doing away with the lower and replacing it with the
higher.

One method of training that we are taught is to avoid self-defense, to
avoid self-justification, to not respond to attacks on us. This is
because to respond from the standpoint of the personality, which is the
part of us that feels hurt, offended, mistreated, is to continue in the
habit of centering our consciousness in it.

A sign of functioning in the impersonal is to be unaware of your
personal benefit, your reward or gain, as you make decisions in life.
Always thinking of what is right in the overall sense, it just would not
occur to you to act and choose things to your benefit at the cost of
others.

The general sense of what is right and true in a situation is
all you think of; you do not self-consciously view things from the
standpoint of yourself seeking benefit from an external world, what is
seen is just the situation and your participation in it.

Your standpoint is from the higher triad, Atman-Buddhi-Manas, a
formless point of view, where you see and interact with the situation
that you are in, but the fact that you are also acting in and through a
personality, through a form on a plane of forms, does not drive your
decision-making, is not your primary focus of consciousness, is a form
of perpherial awareness rather than the part of you that is center
stage.

It would just not occur to you to get mad when someone cuts you off in
traffic. It would not occur to you to keep quiet about something, in
selling your house, that you should tell the buyer, because it would be
right, but would cause the sell to be called off. And it would not occur
to you to respond in anger, or to counterattack someone, should you be
called a stupid fool!

It's not that you tell yourself to be good, to be unselfish, to not
feel anger when you do, it's rather that you are in an entirely
different place within where you do not respond from that part of you,
where your reaction to the world, your seat of consciousness, your
karmic response to life, is a step removed.

Taken from this standpoint, the good of the whole is what you
naturally see, and it is what interests you, what captures your
attention, what you interact with in the world. You live a life of
service because you see the great benefit to others that you can
provide. And you are naturally a selfless, impersonal server, a
benefactor of humanity. It's the natural thing to do.

                                     Eldon Tucker (eldon@netcom.com)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 20:17:05 -0400
From: Gerald Schueler <76400.1474@compuserve.com>
Subject: Responses

Eldon.  Your Model of the Three is interesting.  Are you aware
that you are touching on the esoteric key to the theory of magic
words?  Virtually all schools of magic throughout history have
had the idea that certain words are associated with magical
power.  The ancient Egyptians believed that "the life of a person
is invested in his name" (from my own translation of "The Legend
of Ra and Isis").  The Gnostics taught that the 7 vowels were
especially powerful  creative forces, the consonants merely
adding specifics and direction to them.  One of the first tasks
of Adam after Eden was to give every animal a name.  The Tantras
teach that shabda, sound, has creative power and that every
physical object has its own inherent sound or frequency - its
bija or seed sound.  The idea is that by saying the true name of
a thing out loud, you can create the thing itself, or effect it
in some way.  Of course, this only works if you know the *real*
name of the thing.  Many magicians were reluctant to give out
their real name for fear that it could be used against them.

Just as divinity created the universe from a Word, so we can
create through names or Words of Power.  Ritual Magic uses
Barbarous Names or Words of Power to invoke energies and forces
from occult realms.  It is well known that sound is the most
basic and most powerful of our senses.


Arvind.  I really enjoyed the Buddhist essay.  Hope you can give
us some more.  Thank you.

                                  Jerry S.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 10:31:49 -0400
From: John Mead <jem@char.vnet.net>
Subject: New Theosophy Archive via FTP access

Attention -- News release....

There is FTP access to our char.vnet.net Archives:

directory:   /pub/theos-l

contents of /pub/theos-l are listsed in the readme file
(/pub/yheos-l/readme)

Currently available:
==================================================
theos-l log files
-------------------------
tl9307.log   07/93
tl9308.log   08/93
tl9309.log   09/93

General Regerence
-------------------------
theo.exe  Windows Help file; self extracting zip;by Don DeGracia
theo.uu   uu encoded theo.exe

Short Essays and Papers
--------------------------
meyer01.txt  by Michael Meyers: Toward a New Image of Cosmos and
            Anthropos
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 10:59:13 -0400
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: wolves and sleep
                           (This from Brenda Tucker)
Jerry H-E:

Does your fascination with the literal sense of the term
"human" in the statement by K.H. make you a laughing stock?

    "I am a wolf in sheep's clothing."

    "I am a parrot."

What's so significant about needing sleep?  All kingdoms
sleep or rest, don't they?

Jerry S.:

Does a warning reform people?  I would say
no, it doesn't.  Thought may prove to be a greater
reformer.

Your response to me was so nice.  Thank you for showing
forth such kindness.  It is a great inspirer.

I don't think my logic is faulty on the basis that you
state. By unhealthy, I don't mean bringing death closer,
I mean impeding proper functioning, depriving cells of
important nutrients that could be dangerous and result
in errors in perception. In your own words, "the
physical body is an expression of the higher subtle
bodies."

Let's compare sleep to the atom and the vehicles to the
electron shells.  It is always the outer shells that let
go of their electrons first (as the case may be).  I
don't even necessarily believe that we are on the astral
plane when we sleep, so let's picture the analogy even
further and remove a couple of the outer shells until we
peacefully are fulfilling our part in the divine plan on
whatever plane we are arrested to.  I mean students of
the maters of the wisdom are supposed to be "within the
ranks," studying or working, etc.  even at night.

Aren't the electron shells where the term "quantum leap"
came from?  Why don't you just quantum leap over your
abyss?  Wouldn't it be nice to jump over all that chaos
that's pictured in fractals?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not elaborate any more at
this time.  I kind of like thinking that I'm a weekly
columnist on this "newspaper."

Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 12:05:49 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Meditation

Eldon, your piece on 'impersonal service' is another excellent
commentary from  you.  Where or how do you come up with such words?

I must admit that I have myself committed to memory many passages,
primarily from the Blue books (i.e. Bailey books) and can quote them
every now and then. I commit them to memory in the hope of imbibing
them or implementing them in my day-to-day life but is there a better
way to gain 'real knowledge'. I have heard that meditation (Raja Yoga)
is a method 'par excellence' to get at true knowledge and to verify
for oneself the reality of the One Life and the One Existence but when
I sit down for meditation, all I can do is 'thoughtform-making' based
on what I have already read or committed to memory (in other words I
have a hard time 'sensing the vibration of the soul' when sitting down
to meditate). Is it possible that you can give hints at improving the
quality of one's meditation (comments from others are welcome as well)?

Best Regrds/Arvind
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 12:40:49 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Comarative study of AAB and HPB

Jerry Hejka-Ekins:

Thanks for your rather detailed commentary in response to my query
regarding the reluctance of many 'mainstream TSA theosophists' to
discuss the Bailey material.

It is wonderful that you have already tried to do a comparative study
of the AAB versus the HPB teaching. I may have unintentionally caused
the impression that I have read much of Bailey and Blavatsky (the two
B's out of the "3 B's of esotericism", the third B being the Lord
Buddha ...I am referring here to this phrase I heard recently at the
annual conference of the 7-Ray University).

Actually I have read only seven out of the 24 Bailey books and barely
a volume and a half of the Secret Doctrine by HPB. My plan is to
finish SD, then read 'A treatise on Cosmic Fire' by AAB (which is
considered to hold the 'psychological key to SD) and a book called
'The Divine Plan' (I do not know the author of this last book or
indeed where to get it from as yet; if anyone on the network knows and
can tell me about it, that will be great). These three books are part
of the mandatory reading prescribed for the "PhD in Esoteric
Psychology" students of the University of Seven Rays ( 128 Manhattan
Avenue, Jersey City Heights, NJ 07307 - phone 201 798-7777).

If you are interested in a rather complete or 'rigorous' comparison of
AAB and HPB books/teachings, I feel quite inadequate by myself but
highly reccommend putting this question on the Esonet - 7 Ray
Institute (Computer bulletin board specializing in AAB and other
esoteric studies; good astrology program-no fees; 1200-14400 baud,
8N1, HST, 24 HRS/7 Days a week; voice 718 380 0805 and modem at
718 380 5750; contact person Jerome Salem, SYSOP). I will however do
whatever I can toward this end to answer some of the questions that
you have raised in your last message (but over the next several days).

You mentioned that you are extremely busy and may not be able to reply
my questions quickly. That is no problem at all. I myself have a full
time supervisory position in the system engineering/software
development dept of a large swedish telecom supplier. In addition, I
help my wife in managing her nursing business which she runs from our
house, and have a 15 year old daughter who takes up much of my spare
time -- she is one of my many teachers, albeit a more pure one, being
so young and unspoilt. So I hope that you will understand why I cannot
reply your (and the many other excellent ) messages for several days
sometimes...

Best Regards and hoping to re-read your message next week sometime in
an effort to reply to some of your specific questions

/ Arvind
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:46:42 -0400
From: Arvind Kumar <exuaxk@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Advaita Vedanta

I saw the following message on the bulletin board soc.religion.eastern
and am forwarding it in the hope that any members who may be interested
in finding moreabout the Advaitya Vedanta (about which HPB has spoken
so highly in SD) may contact the appropriate person.

Best Regards/Arvind


A brief introduction to "Society of Abidance in Truth (SAT)"

SAT was founded in 1974 by a devotee of Sri Ramana Maharshi.
This society is a non-profit organization that exists for the
purpose making available the Teaching of Non-duality (Advaita
Vedanta), as imparted by Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi and now
imparted by Sage, Master Nome. SAT, though focusses primarily
on Sri Ramana's teachings, also carries literature on teachings
of a number of masters of Advaita Vedanta.

Advaita Vedanta
---------------

The Advaita Vedanta, is the timeless impartation of the quint-
essential Knowledge of who we are. "Advaita" means "not two",
"non-dual". "Vedanta" means "the finality, the culmination,
the highest of the Vedas." The highest and the final wisdom
reveals Non-duality. This teaching is perfectly capable of
satisfying the undeniable yearning for happiness and of freeing
one from all imagined bondage. It is the direct and clear reve-
lation of the Self or Absolute Being, as conveyed from the time
of the Upanishads and before.

Ribhu Gita
----------

The "Ribhu Gita" is a scripture which was written and carefully
preserved thousands of years ago. It is approximately 500 pages
including: a foreword, two introductions, notes on translations,
table of contents, 44 chapters of 2170 beautiful verses of veri-
table Truth and a comprehensive glossary of Sanskrit words and
terms that are used throughout the text. The glossary alone
provides a unique education in Advaita Vedanta for the reader.
Throughout the entire book, Sri Ribhu continually reveals the
One Reality of the bliss of the Self to his disciple Nigadha.
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi often shared the Tamil verses with
his disciples. The spiritual and historic significance of these
first, literal translations to English cannot be overestimated.

Since Obtaining these original texts from the Univ of Madras and
Ramanasramam in India, the translations have been rendered with
extreme care, unfailing precision by the exemplary scholarship
of Dr. Ramamoorthy in collaboration with Master Nome here at the
SAT. The extraordinary labor of love has rendered a very literal
translation that has preserved the profound spiritual meaning,
making it easy for us to understand.

SAT has decided to self-publish the first editions to ensure that
the same selfless loving attention that has prefected the trans-
lations is maintained in its production. SAT is not requesting
money for the labor; it is only requesting funding for the prin-
ting, binding, and distribution of this revered text. SAT wishes
to bring many more rare publications to the world, and for that
it needs support from all those who are interested in its mission.

If you know of another person or organization that would be inte-
rested in receiving these scriptures or contributing to this sacred
work, please ask them to contact SAT.

If you would like to find out more about SAT, its mission, acti-
vities and publications, please write to (or call):

Nancy Ginty
SAT Publications Project Manager
P.O. Box 8080
Santa Cruz, California.
95061-8080.

Ph#s: 408-425-7287
      408-457-2285


Note: Pl direct all your enquries to Nancy Ginty at SAT and NOT
      to the sender of this message.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 21:46:09 PDT
From: "Eldon B. Tucker" <eldon@netcom.com>
Subject: astrological research

Popular astrology starts with a natal chart, a map of the sky about the
place of birth. This chart is said to represent the person's basic
personality, what he will be in this lifetime.

The chart has the planets (including the sun and moon). The sky is
sliced into twelve pieces starting at the horizon, called the houses,
and each relates to a different area of life.  The sky is also sliced
into twelve pieces, called the signs, with aries starting at the vernal
equinox. When the planets are within a certain angle of each other,
they are said to be in aspect. A sixty-degree angle, for instance, is
said to be a sextile, with a specific meaning attached.

There are many other aspects of an astrological chart. When a chart is
interpreted, and the astrologer is looking at a certain element of one's
life, there is a complex pattern of relationships and items in a
chart that are looked at. There is not one simple thing to look at, for
instance, to see what kind of marriage partner that one will attract,
and how one's married life will tend to be.

Everything in the chart is inter-related, and it is a complex process to
extract valid information about a person from it. The astrological
indicators are general, and need to be specifically adapted to the
individual in question. It is much, in a way, like interpreting the
results of a throw of the I Ching, or interpreting a dream, there is an
exploration of the unconscious in the process.

Looking at astrological theory from a scientific standpoint, for a
moment, let us accept the assumption that everything in a chart
is inter-related.

One test that we could do would be to take a very large sample of
charts of actual people, say 20,000, generated on a computer program,
then subject them to factor analysis.  The underlying factors should
reveal this interrelated nature of things.  Things that really go
together in charts should show up on the same factors. If they do not
show up together, if things with totally different astrological meanings
show up on the same factors, then there is something wrong with those
astrological meanings! (Unless, of course, we are just using them for
the purpose of divination, and do not really care if they bear a
correlation with actual things in the lives of people.) If there are a
random jumble of meanings on each of the major factors, something is
wrong with those meanings, if there is a relationship at all.

A second test is to take every standard variable in an astrological
chart, and there are several hundred of them, like planet positions by
sign and house, and intra-planet aspects, and using multivariate
statistical techniques, see if relationships hold up against information
about people. This information can be demographic, physical
characteristics, lifestyle and interests, just about anything subject to
measurement. The explanation that astrological research does not hold
up because everything in a chart is not taken into account, in this
case, where everything *is* taken into account, is not true.1

Interpreting an astrological chart is, I would say, an intuitive and
psychic process, where the astrologer has to go beyond the factual
information in the chart and directly see things about the individual in
question. The astrologer is, perhaps unknowingly, reading the astral
light, in regards to the individual in question, and the astrological
indicators that are picked up on are only a means facilitate the
process. It could just as well have been numerology, dream
interpretation, or some other method of accessing unconscious content.

                                  Eldon Tucker (eldon@netcom.com)
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1993 03:16:18 -0400
From: 91484615@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RE: what is a scientist

Eldon,

I beleive being a scientist is a state of mind, a commitment to yourself
to try and understand the world around you, and to varify your beleifs
by empirical means.  I think working together with others and conducting
experiments, thought experiments if nessesary, is essential to being a
scientist.  What better way to study comparitive science than to become
a scientist?   I beleive there are other fundemental laws and forces in
nature, perhaps religions have been dealing with them for a long time.
I don't think scientist is an elite title, just a serious commitment,
that anyone can choose to make.  I  feel the three objects are the
most import goals of theosophy, I admire the way Blavatsky embraced
the science of here time, but I think we need to weigh some of her
material in terms of recent information and understanding, this is an
age of enlightenment.

Jay Amundson
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 13:04:56 -0500
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: M's Pipe and a message to Leonard Cole

To OSMAR DE CARVALHO

I tried to send to following message to your mailbox without success.
So I'm sending this through the bulletin board, as I can't figure out
what I did wrong.

Dear Osmar de Carvalho,

     Greetings from central California.  Thanks for your inquiry.
I no longer remember the exact passage we were reading when the
described incident occurred, but I can offer you some passages
concerning M's pipe:

     Letter 71 is partially a thank you note from M to A.P.
Sinnett for his gift of an english style pipe.  "The pipe is
short and my nose long, so we will agree very well together I
hope."

     At the beginning of letter 96, M mentions that he was in
Lhasa on Dec. 16th, smoking the pipe Sinnett had given him.

     A little past the middle of letter 54, KH talks about H.P.B.
idolizing M, making him "an Apollo of Belevdere, the glowing
description of whose physical beauty made him more than once
start in anger, and break his pipe while swearing like a true --
Christian..."

     If you ever decide to make a personal study of the Mahatma
Letters, or do them in a group, I recommend that you use Hanson's
READER'S GUIDE TO THE MAHATMA LETTERS, and follow her chronology.
It puts the letters into perspective.

Cheers from beautiful downtown Turlock.

Jerry Hejka-Ekins



To Leonard Cole:

       I tried to reach you through your mail box, but also without
success. Re. your message: Yes to both questions.  You can reach me at
(209) 667-7486.

Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1993 14:41:27 -0400
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Bailey, Mahatmas and sleep.

Arvind Kumar

Thanks for your reply. That you have read seven of the twenty-
four Bailey books gives you from my point of view, a lot of
background--certainly more than mine.  I don't think that we have
to read everything an author has written to have a reasonable
understanding of the subject.  The idea of committing myself to
another bulletin board is a bit scary. I already spend more time
than I can afford on this one.  But Esonet should prove to be a
valuable resource when we get stuck, and hopefully, others will
join in the discussion who will be able to fill in any other
gaps.

For my background, I've read all of H.P.B.'s books several times,
and most of her articles at least once.  Also much of her
correspondence and the Mahatma Letters.  I have also read Besant
and Leadbeater's main works over the years, and have read or
became acquainted with A.E. Powell, G.S. Arundale, C.
Jinarajadasa, etc.  Further, I have a deep interest in the
history of the movement, which I find puts a lot into
perspective.

THE DIVINE PLAN is by Geoffrey Barborka.  It is available in hard
cover only, through me (I'm a mail order book dealer) or Quest
Books (Wheaton) for $18.95.  The book is supposed to be a guide
to the study of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. I found THE DIVINE PLAN to
be dry reading, but many swear by it.

You do indeed have a lot to do.  Nursing homes are endless hard
work, and you have my respect for the sacrifice you and your wife
are making.  Good luck on your 15 years old.  My daughter is
twenty and lives pretty independently now.  The horror of the
teens is over.

Brenda Tucker

Thanks for joining our discussion on AAB and HPB. April and I
weren't able to catch the meaning of your first question.
Perhaps you will clarify.

As to your second question.  I assume it is in regard to my
reference of K.H.'s need to sleep.  I chose those passages to
illustrate that the Mahatmas represent themselves very
differently from the way that most people in and outside of The
Theosophical Society think of them.  In my experience, the common
perception is that the Masters are non physical, superhuman
beings, who occasionally take on a mayavi rupa (illusionary body)
in order to talk to us mortals.  I find it commonly believed that
their typical mode of travel was via the astral. But in THE
MAHATMA LETTERS, they talk of traveling by horse for days at a
time.  They also talk about getting tired, and being annoyed with
A.O. Hume etc.  I'm sure Eldon will be able to show you the
passages that I'm alluding to, and fill you in on what I am
talking about.  So the point isn't whether or not all kingdoms
need sleep; but rather, if we accept the mahatma letters as
genuine documents, written by them, and that their self
descriptions are honest ones, then the Mahatmas are not so
different from us as most people think.

I have found that many people are unwilling to consider any
evidence that threatens to contradict what they already believe.
One incident comes to mind:  When the Los Angeles Lodge was
studying THE MAHATMA LETTERS (this was before you joined).  We
were reading them in the order given by Virginia Hanson and
George Linton's READER'S GUIDE.  One evening we ran into one of
the passages about Mahatma M smoking a pipe.  During discussion,
a member, who had been in the TS for over fifty years, but had
never before read THE MAHATMA LETTERS, announced that he didn't
believe that M smoked a pipe.  Another member, a bit stunned,
asked why he said that, as we had just read M's own statement
that he did.  The first member simply repeated that he did not
believe that M smoked a pipe, and was unwilling to elaborate. Out
of courtesy to his beliefs, no one questioned him any further,
but many members that evening had a rude awakening concerning the
physchological makeup of some people who claim to be students of
Theosophy.

How all of this relates to our comparative study is as follows:
If we are to have an open forum comparing writers, all of the
participants are bound, sooner or later to be confronted with
information, that will compel us to re-examine our beliefs.  I
hope that all who participate are willing to examine conflictual
information with intellectual integrity rather than crawling into
a shell, as did our friend at Los Angeles Lodge.

I realize that my answer goes beyond your original question, but
I am also responding to some unexpressed issues, that I'm aware
of, based upon earlier conversations with you.


Jerry Hejka-Ekins
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:58:43 -0500
From: 91484615@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RE: Invisible Helpers

Sheldon,

I have had some experiences with guided meditations, or path walkings.
This is not without some hazard, but neither is living.  I can't
direct to anyone right off hand, but if you seek it the opportunities
will present themselves.  The astral plane, is not a very visual place
the most noticeable sense I have detected is feelings, like love or
fear.

Personally I don't feel the need to go there, with my conscious mind and
my unconscious mind doesn't tell me where it's going.  Good luck, if I
find someone who is willing to do this I will let you know.

Take care

Jay Amundson
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 18:40:08 -0500
From: Sheldon Butler <71311.3433@compuserve.com>
Subject: New member question

Hi,

Are there any current members of the Theosophical Society that
exhibit the clarity and accuracy of clairvoyance that HPB, Leadbeater
and Besant had? Do any of these members write or have study groups?

Thanks,

Sheldon Butler
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 18:40:21 -0500
From: Sheldon Butler <71311.3433@compuserve.com>
Subject: Invisible Helpers

Hi all,

Are there any active bands of helpers on the Astral Plane
within the current Theosophical Society?

Are there any currently utilized methods of waking up on
the Astral that members have found effective?

I am familiar with Leadbeater's writings on this subject and
from those references he stated that he lead some of those
bands at that time.  I was wondering if there is anyone
actively doing this kind of work today?

Any comments and references would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sheldon Butler