Conversations with Krishnamurti 4/5
Jan 01, 1999 11:43 AM
by M K Ramadoss
Part four:
David Walker wrote:
Dear Friends,
This is the fourth piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
March 30, 1980
Ojai - California
There may be one day of error in this date
Ruben: Last year we couldn't talk too much. Mary
(Zimbalist) takes good care of you. She didn't let
me see you. Simple as that (laughing).
Krishnamurti: I asked her to live longer than I will, so she helps
me to take care of "the horse". They claim that I
take care of my body as a cavalry officer takes care
of his horse. Maria is a good officer.
Ruben: I guess that without her it would be difficult to be
even one minute by yourself, with so many people
wanting to talk to you. People love you.
Krishnamurti: No, very few want to discuss anything serious. They
fall in love with me and want to be close, that's
all. It's not that they love.
Ruben: I'm glad to know Dr. David Bohm will talk with you
and that the talks will be recorded. Please tell him
I'd like to see him again.
Krishnamurti: Yes, we will record our talks with Dr. Bohm. I didn't
know what we would do in the two days in California
this time, but seems it will happen.
Ruben: I hope you talk about the problem of time. It was
when I had my first contact with That, at the
Frankfurt Airport in 1978, that I understood what is
irrelevant time. It was the last thing I understood,
the difference between relevant and irrelevant time.
I think if somebody understands that difference right
away That has to barge in.
Krishnamurti: Quite, Dr. Gonzalez.
Ruben: It's a pity that that "contact" is not a voluntary
thing, because I would not like to live in any other
way anymore. It's like healing or group-mind. It
happens without one knowing how or why: It's perhaps
semi-deliberate...
Krishnamurti: Don't get trapped in it when it happens.
Ruben: No, but it's fascinating.
Krishnamurti: It would be good to have you in our dialogue with Dr.
Bohm, somebody who knows about the brain and
intellectual psychology.
Ruben: Excuse me, but I'm not ready to participate in that
dialogue. I'm going through a family crisis, my sons
are in Argentina, and it's better not to talk about
that. You might remember that last year, after having
a walk with them, you told me: "Don't ask them what
happened". That was in April 1979. Their mother left
our house abruptly in August 79. Is all this
irrelevant time?
Krishnamurti: Yes, but you said you have tried the Ocean water.
Don't avoid exposure Dr. Gonzalez. You already have
something to say. I hope you'll participate and
contribute.
Ruben: I'm very sorry I can't do it right now. It's not that
I don't want it or that I'm afraid. I simply can't.
I think I'm going through a small night of the soul,
as they used to say.
Krishnamurti: I hope you can. Speak and expect no-thing. Don't
expect to preserve your respectable merits, untie the
ocean. The Ocean will flood Dr. Gonzalez. There will
be nothing left of him.
(PAUSE)
Ruben: I'm thinking of working only four hours a day and
living in the desert or by the sea, far from big
cities. I made contacts in San Luis Obispo, Santa
Barbara (with Dr. Ben whom you know so well),
Ventura, Hawaii, etc. I want to live simply and with
austerity. In November 1979 I refused an offer by Dr.
Karl Pribram at Stanford University in California, to
work with him in brain research.
Krishnamurti: You love and you do what you will. But austerity may
not be simple.
Ruben: I got rid of everything I had.
Krishnamurti: Be careful that austerity be simple.
Ruben: What do you mean?
Krishnamurti: You may live in a mansion and spend the night in a
grand hotel, as long as your future is not in your
memory. He who dies being rich has lived in vain.
Ruben: I agree. The doubts I have refer to the security of
my two sons. I only don't want to have more children.
I'm a pediatric surgeon and a pediatric neurologist--
psychiatrist, but I don't know what to tell my
children. The world is not fit for children.
Krishnamurti: Be responsible with the commitments you have taken
upon yourself, but don't worry.
Ruben: I think my first commitment is to share the treasure
of That when one truly lives in it. I'm spending
everything I can spare traveling around the world and
talking from That. That has come several times.
Krishnamurti: Yes, you look different. Since you come from Latin
America, why not concentrate on Latin America?
Tickets and hotels are more and more expensive every
day and you know how difficult it is to get a visa
sometimes.
Nobody will pay your expenses from Latin American.
Those who could pay will not listen and those who
listen will not pay. Besides that, you need to take
care of your health, you need exercise, Dr. Gonzalez.
It's a problem to be in a hospital, all plans
altered. That's what happened to me in 1977 when they
operated upon my prostate. It was a chance to die and
never come back, but there is a lot to do yet. You
think it's generous to forget one's health, right?
Ruben: (laughing) I think it's the problem of almost every
physician, the idea that you have to take care of
people's health and forget oneself. I was lucky to be
born in a vegetarian home, that I never drank
(alcohol) or used drugs or tobacco.
Krishnamurti: Beware of your generosity, Dr. Gonzalez, the end of
the body shouldn't be precipitated by suicide nor the
generosity of forgetting one's own body.
What do you do when you talk with people in Latin
America? Have you ever tried to ask a question in a
group for nobody to answer? See what happens.
Ruben: I speak in Universities with professors and students.
When riots and strikes start (which happens quite
often due to the situation of oppression and plunder
of which Latin America is victim) then I rent a hotel
lecture-room, place an ad in a local paper (all quite
expensive) and I invite the whole town, as I have
done repeatedly in Caracas, Santiago, Buenos Aires,
Rosario, several towns in Mexico and Lima.
In Costa Rica there were no problems at the
University (San Jose). Perhaps that's because Costa
Rica has no Army.
I speak of time and its relationship to
consciousness, to perception. I speak of "Unitary
Perception". Local gurus don't like me to talk
because that's the end of their spiritual business.
I also understand that when you told me "you talk"
it's implicit I'm the only one responsible for what
I say. I do not represent you nor interpret your
teaching.
Krishnamurti: Quite. Don't forget that in silence flowers an
intuitive understanding. Do you talk of living
orderly and peacefully and honestly? That's not so
difficult and that's the beginning. It's important to
emphasize a radical change in daily life. Partial
reforms (political, economic, ideologic) are not
enough.
Ruben: But they are urgently needed in Latin America,
otherwise a lot of blood will be spilled.
Krishnamurti: yes, but without a radical psychological
transformation a partial reform will only
procrastinate the blood spill.
(PAUSE)
Ruben: If wars don't stop today, there will be war
tomorrow.
(PAUSE)
Krishnamurti: Have you been flattered or invalidated?
Ruben: More flattered than invalidated. Both may be the
same.
Krishnamurti: They are both rubbish, don't you see? They have
done it with me, all my life. To adore or to mock
is easier than listening. You know.
Ruben: I see it clearly. But change seems to be difficult.
Krishnamurti: Do you know that you can help those students to
change?
Ruben: I hope so... but... that contradicts...
Krishnamurti: Give them all your compassion and all your
intelligence and even the last minute of your time
and energy, but learn to rest in silence. You work
too much. Listen well to each one of them. In
intelligence and compassion you are a little sun.
You'll give light and warmth... and some will praise
you, or will mock you from the shadows. Some others
will sit in the sun. (LONG PAUSE)
Ruben: Do you think I should speak without using my name
(anonymously)?
Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez you have four names, don't confuse me
even more with your anonymity. Do not avoid exposure.
Don't be afraid of loosing anything. There's nothing
to loose. You told me you're responsible for what
you say, anonymous or not!
Ruben: What do I do with healing?
Krishnamurti: Healing the body is of secondary importance. Do what
you will. But don't do it because someone wants it.
Ruben: What do you do with the aura?
Krishnamurti: Nothing. We have discussed this matter the first time
we met. If you get trapped in something marvelous
you'll not allow for the next marvelous thing to
happen. Leave the aura alone. Leave kundalini alone.
"That" cleanses everything. You don't need to worry.
Ruben: Sometimes you see something unbearable in someone you
love. What do you do?
Krishnamurti: Do you have predilections? Or will you look for some
reason for it? It seems unbearable to love someone
who will not get interested in That. There is a
brother I would like to get interested... he
resists... but that's that.
Ruben: The saddest thing for me is to see what human beings
could be but are not. I would even stop watching the
news, but it's hard.
(LONG PAUSE)
Krishnamurti: I watch the news sometimes, or else someone else
summarizes them for me. The spiritual state of
mankind is deplorable. Don't you see how urgently
necessary your own transformation is, Dr. Gonzalez?
Every child should travel around the world. Then they
could cry for all mankind and they would stop
thinking as Argentineans, Hindis, Russians, American,
Japanese, etc.
Ruben: Nothing seems to be enough to understand something so
simple.
Krishnamurti: Your own total psychological transformation is
enough. It's enough to get rid of mankind's
consciousness. It's necessary to do so and that is
the pure silence and the pure peace of the brain.
But that can't be left for tomorrow, if one is
serious.
Ruben: Silence without name.
Krishnamurti: It's like a house which doesn't have a place for
silence... it will be a house with a lot of activity,
plenty of noise, but there That will not enter. There
has to be a room in each house where the only thing
you can do there is to be silent and nothing else.
That room will be the flame of the house.
Ruben: Then each home would be like a temple...
Krishnamurti: Each home would be a home without sorrow, that is a
good home.
(LONG PAUSE)
Krishnamurti: Well Dr. Gonzalez, it's time to go now. I'm sorry.
Ruben: Krishnaji, before we go... I hope you give me the
names of those you think have understood you best,
even when not absolutely well. I'd like to talk with
all of them.
Krishnamurti: They are few, so find them and meet them. Untie
the ocean together.
Ruben: Thank you for all, my friend.
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